November 26, 2025 • 48 mins
Margaret continues her talk with Jamie Loftus about Shawnee resistance to the American colonialism and a woman who led them in battle.
Sources:
https://colonialquills.blogspot.com/2017/07/revolutionary-mothers-nonhelema-of.html
https://kentucky-museum.org/nonhelema-hokolesqua/
https://www.publishersweekly.com/978-0-345-44554-4
https://sundownohio.substack.com/p/the-gnadenhutten-massacre
https://newreligiousmovements.org/b/bohemian-adamites/
https://www.reformedhistory.com/Content/Confessions/ArticlesOfPrague
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2015/mar/22/naked-truth-about-seventies-streaking-craze
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/iph4ag/why_did_the_czech_lands_remain_catholic_rather/
https://web.archive.org/web/20160223035154/http://www.moravian.org.uk/index.php/the-moravian-church/moravian-history
https://www.nrafamily.org/content/throwback-thursday-nonhelema-s-tale/
https://www.nationsandcannons.com/blog/nonhelema-chieftess-warrior-and-advocate-for-neutrality-in-the-revolutionary-war
https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/metis
https://web.archive.org/web/20240624093053/https://lssse.indiana.edu/blog/guest-post-native-american-exclusion-as-a-form-of-paper-genocide/
https://frontierpartisans.com/281/the-shawnee-resistance/
https://www.americanhistorycentral.com/entries/pontiacs-rebellion/
https://bushyrunbattlefield.com/battle-of-bush-run-history/
https://battlefieldtravels.com/battle-of-bushy-run/
https://archive.wvculture.org/hiStory/journal_wvh/wvh56-5.html
https://www.midstory.org/over-240-years-later-an-ohio-community-remembers-its-founding-massacre/
https://journals.psu.edu/wph/article/download/60205/60154
Personal correspondence
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Cool Zone Media.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Hello, and welcome to Kopbooted Cool Stuff, your weekly reminder
that history is cool and uh oh god, that makes
me sound like I'm about to turn my chair backwards
and sit on it with a backwards baseball cap.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
You're right, I should get confirmed. God is cool.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
This would be like a college dropout trying to convince
someone to finish their degree.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
If I told you to get confirmed, I never got confirmed.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
I didn't either. But my guest, my unconfirmed guest, is
Jamie Loftus Hi.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Hi. Yeah, I'm not whole in the eyes of God.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
No.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
No.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
I actually originally Jamie was going to be my guest
for the Halloween episode. Originally, but things got in the
way and I had been planning on specifically saying the
Halloween episode is about druids. Yes, And I was going
to say, Jamie, you're from Boston, that makes you basically Irish.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
I am actually three quarters.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Oh okay cool. Yeah, that had been my plan when
I was going to talk about Truid's so and then
I actually mostly talked about France and Britain.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Anyway, Hey, familiar to this week? Yeah yeah, yeah. And
the reason I wasn't on the Halloween episode is because
an animal died in my walls in a way that
felt very like, first of all, it's sad, yeah, and
then also it's hard not to view it as like
a sign. It's hard not to view like when your
whole house smells like rot and death, it's hard not
(01:36):
to take it personally. And I was taking a que personally.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Especially when the veil is then whether or not you
believe in that, it's still just things are extra spooky
and fall no matter what you believe in.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
The timing was very suspicious. Yeah, I was like, first
of all, the animal spirit has passed into her home.
I hope they're not trapped. And also, boy did the
vessel smell like fucking shit?
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Bad, bad.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
I think it's probably good that the maybe single most
core thing that scent does is say that smells like death.
Leave now, Yes, But when it's your home, you.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Can't your home, you have no choice, and the chemicals do.
I think I was like placebo affecting myself, but I
was convinced that the chemicals were starting to get into
my head.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
I would have convinced myself that very quickly.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
I understand I was allowed to get into any pedantic
argument I wanted because of the chemicals.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Right, but does that also apply to everyone else in
the house?
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Certainly not, certainly not.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
You'll let you get the excuse of the chemicals. This
is good to know.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
I'm built a little different and so the chemicals are
going to affect me because I'm very sensitive.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Okay, we are on part two of a two parter
about non Helema, a Shawnee warrior and chief and interpreter.
And oh, the first half of this post story is
going to be good, but the last, the heel turn,
is gonna heal turn. But we'll get to that later.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Wait, Okay, I'm curious. Yeah, I'm like, I don't really
have a guess.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
I almost feel bad. We'll get to it. We'll talk
about when we get to it, but first we should
talk about the fact that we have an audio engineer
named Eva hi Eva hi Eva, and our theme music
was written for us by unwoman. And I promised you
Pontiac's war you did, which is not a Mad Max
thing with cars.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
I'm like trying to be better about when I just
don't know something that is embarrassing to not know. I
did not know who Pontiac was until today.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
No, I think that's good. I remember when it became
this like very direct change, when I stopped smiling and nodding,
when my theory bros were like, oh, you know, like
the postmodern Delusian concept of whatever or whatever, when I
started just being like, I don't know what that is,
and like not even asking, yeah, not even necessarily asking
what it is, just telling them being like, you're making
(04:08):
a reference that I don't get.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
I feel like specifically now because I got so accustomed
to pretending that I knew they either because you're like
I don't I'm not interested and I don't want to
hear more, or alternatively, I feel like now it's I
don't know that like chunk of Twitter years where everyone
had to pretend to know everything and have an informed
(04:31):
opinion about it. You're like, that's a motherfucker to shake
off it.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Is, and like that's like one of the things I've
been thinking about, Like even like the French and Indian Warm.
I've had to look up what the French Indian War
is so many times because of the show, because it
directly affects an awful lot about how people resisted the
American Empire and I still forget what year it was,
like what the even some of the broad strokes are
(04:55):
and I'm just like instead of just being like, oh, well,
everyone knows about Pontiacs War, like you know what, I
didn't know about Pontiac's War. It's fine. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
And also because like the reasons that we don't know
about Pontiac's War are historically significant.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Totally, because it is painted as if Pontiac was the
bad guy and lost, and so it was just like
yet another successful win for the American is soon to
be patriotic revolutionaries, you know, yeehaw. Yeah. And so basically
France had just lost the French and Indian War and
(05:30):
given Ohio roughly the Ohio Valley to the British. But
the people who lived there were like, no, that's not
we live here. And so a fuck ton of different
nations came together and went to war together. It's called
Pontiac's War because one of the charismatic leaders, one of
the two people who are named and I forgot to
(05:51):
write down the other person's name, like most of historians,
one of the two people who's like mostly credited bringing
the tribes together to fight against a common enemy was
Chief pont in the Act of the Ottawa People. Although
now that I know how much non Jlemo's written out
of everything, I'm wondering if he had another like female
counterpart who's just also entirely written out of the story
by the white people who wrote it.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
Safe to say, I mean, I feel like every historical
figure you know, there's someone erased behind them, I guess,
irrespective of gender.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Yeah, And I'm not trying to dismiss Chief Piani. I
don't know enough about him. I haven't a deep dived
him yet. It's the kind of thing I might at
some point, and for a while they push back the
empire really effectively. The good guys do lose that war
in the end. But along the way non Helema became
a war chief. And presumably this happened in the way
where like they have that bilateral thing that I was
(06:40):
talking about, where you have the two lodges, and then
the women's lodge splits into the matriarch's war Council. My
understanding is that she would have then been elected by
that as a war chief. But that is an inference
on my part, because no one bothers writing that. Where
I have found it. Yet there's a lot of books
written about this that I'm not trying to be like
no one writes about it. I'm like, yeah, I have
a week to write these things. Right, she might have
(07:01):
actually been a war chief prior to that, in the
French and Indian War. It would make a lot of
sense for her have been doing that. She was certainly
chief of her area, and like would have made sense.
And her brother Cornstock, is a war chief in Pontiac's
War two, and this is considered really auspicious and good
to be led by a brother and sister team. Okay,
because in that bilateral system where you men and women's
(07:23):
councils doing the war councils, having a woman and her
husband in charge is seen as great. But a sister
and a brother is like even better, right, And I
find that really sweet. Both parts of that.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
It it weirdly makes sense to me. I mean, I
know that there's whatever history is littered with examples of
sibling follouts with global consequences. Yeah, but with a good
sibling bond, like that's I feel like a good sibling
bond can be stronger than marriage.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
I think so too, And I think that that's The
implication is that because they have been working together on
some level since infancy, or at least since one of
them was an infant, I think that she is the older,
but I'm not sure so even more than Yeah, the
bond between a husband and wife is a sister and
her brother. If again they get along all right.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
Yeah, someone who knew you with your original set of teeth.
That's powerful.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Yeah, totally when you had a shark mouth. Have you
ever seen kids? Actually, I bring this up all the time.
This is the scariest thing I've ever seen in my life. Yes,
the existential horror that is children's faces.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
And it's exciting because you get five dollars sometimes, So
there's a capitalistic element.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
That's true. That's true.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
Teeth, Yeah, yes, the commodifying of the child's mouth.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
I think it's to make the child less of a shark,
just like, really reward them for being less scary. If
anyone ever wants to give themselves minor nightmares, just go
ahead and google a child's mouth x ray, and then
good luck looking at children the same. So she went
into battle, and this is the what mid sixties. She's
like forty eight at this point, and we don't have.
(09:08):
The things I've read have been like, look, she probably
physically fought, but we don't one hundred percent know that.
But I think we have every reason to believe it,
especially with like some of the nicknames that she's going
to be getting in a.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
Minute, especially if she's like a seasoned leader in this
in this area too.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
Yeah. Yeah, the whole lead from the back thing is
like a I think, a newer cultural concept in a
lot of places. I don't know as much about Shawne
culture as relates to this, but I know in a
lot of places, like the lead from the back thing
isn't going to fly. People are like, hey, you want
us to die and you don't have any skin in
the game. No, I don't get it.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
Yeah, that for me is a non starter.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Yeah, exactly. So she goes into battle painted all black
and naked according to some sources. In other sources that
I believe are doing a modesty claim that she's naked
except for a loincloth and sandals.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
Oh yeah, like digitally editing clothes on.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Yeah, don't worry.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
In other versions of this, she painted half of her
face black for death and the other half red for
blood drama.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
I like it.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
I like that so much. We know that she fought
at least in the Battle of Bushy Run, which was
a turning point in the war. Unfortunately, it was a
bad turning point. Basically, you know, the evil Empire spreading
into the good guy's alliance side, and they're you know,
they have set up all these forts, and so Pontiac's war,
(10:42):
they're like, we're gonna take all the forts, and they
take like nine out of eleven of them or something
like that. Right away. They just sort like, fuck it,
let's go, and they take all these forts. But there's
this one fort, Fort pitt which I believe is where
Pittsburgh gets its name. But I have been more certain
about things, and it's kind of the entrance to the
Ohio Valley, which is basically like sense later. I mean,
(11:04):
a lot of the American Revolution is literally going to
be white settlers who are like, but we want to
go west and take more stuff, and the king doesn't
want to let us. And it takes a lot to
make me make a whiny voice defending the King of England.
Like as discussed earlier, I'm also irish, you know, and
not my favorite thing to do. So Fort Pitt is
(11:26):
like one of the most fortified forts in the war.
That's where fort gets their.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
Name, the fortiest fort.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
Yeah. Absolutely, it's the fortieth fort. I'm out of puns.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
Let's move to Pitt. There's plenty of pit puns.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Absolutely, absolutely. Oh there's gonna be a real bad pit
story later. But oh, I'm sorry. The colonists were real
fucked up anyway.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
No one's ever said that before. I'm so glad.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
I know. It's funny because whenever you read these histories,
it's always like, well, there's atrocities on both sides, and
they just like leave it at that.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
You're like, okay, cities in the room with us, Like.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
What do you Yeah, totally like, is there a difference
in systemic power between these two groups of people.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
Oh, don't worry about don't you worry yet?
Speaker 3 (12:08):
It.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
So they lay siege to Fort Pitt. They're sieging it
for several days, but then they see a British army
marching nearby, like coming up alongside i think, kind of
to flank them, and they're like, all right, we got
to go fucking attack that. We're going to ambush them,
and they lose and the war starts to turn against
the Indigenous folks at that point. But what's funny, most
historical sources on this will be like kind of neutral
(12:31):
and just present the facts as they understand it. But
you see some that are like it was the scrappy
Brits who were outnumbered but stood there ground and won
the day. There's a movie out from a couple of
years ago when I was googling for the Battle of
Bushy Run, and it's like this weird propaganda film about
(12:52):
like as if we're back still in like whenever they
made all of the worst Indian Wars movies, there's a
new one.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
I mean, you could really make an argument for a
lot of decades. I worry because it's happening that like
any like surge forward in like indigenous cinema in the
US and in Canada from the last fifteen or twenty years.
I mean, like the movies will continue to exist, the
creatives are still there, but it's like we're gonna start
getting those big ten pole like fake ass history movies
(13:20):
again because of yeah, you're probably right, yeah, so look
up for that.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
Yeah. And I don't know, I haven't seen this movie,
but it seems to be from the point of view
of the scrappy Brits and their highlander friends, because it
was you know, highlander soldiers or whatever. It was a
big part of this whatever. And yeah, some sources be
like the scrappy Brits were outnumbered, but they stood their
ground against the evil Hordes or whatever and won the day.
(13:49):
It was about five hundred veteran British soldiers with like
modern arms versus about three hundred to five hundred warriors. Okay,
so that's not what they're saying. Yeah, after a few
days of fighting, they ambush the Brits. The Brits fall back,
they build a defensive fortification out of like bags of
oats and shit, and they hold off for a little while,
(14:11):
and then they counter ambush and they send the enemy
into a route and the British like random down and
killed them as best as I can tell, Okay. And
after that defeat, this is the turning point of Pontiac's war.
The British. The way they really win is not on
the battlefield. They start picking tribes off out of the
coalition by going and offering them one on one treaties,
(14:33):
being like, hey, you want to, you know, break the
rebel alliance by you.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
Know, God joining us, and how many versions of that
has happened over history of like, let's break down the
solidarity of these disparate groups and that's how we will
continue our evil project. I know this song. I know
this song.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
It's happening right now, Okay. Yeah, and non Helena earned
a fearsome reputation during this war, and the British honored
her by giving her a slur nickname. They called her
the Grenadier and then a slur that's still used today
against Native women.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
God okay, and the slur.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
Part, I'm like, yeah, I know where they came up
with that grenadier were They were basically the shock troops
of Western Europe at the time, because you wanted the biggest, strongest,
like the physically strongest soldiers for the job to stand
there and throw grenades. Okay, and later the grenadiers become
like the tip of the spear, like the kind of
(15:39):
pre marine marines in Western European militaries.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
And so really big folks are the grenadiers, and so
this is like part of why the whole she's actually
probably very tall, It's probably true, okay, because they gave
her a nickname.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
Right now, I'm getting closer to being sold on six
six want to leave six'?
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Six, Yeah and so they called her whole town The
Grenadier slurs. Town and eventually in seventeen sixty, eight remember
how The french were, like, yeah y'all can Have ohio
were not using? It, well now The Iroquois federation are
also going to give Away ohio in a. Treaty they
claim most Of ohio. Territory they sign a treaty with
(16:21):
The empire to, say, yeah you can settle. There but
they were just speaking for, themselves not The shawnee or
The mingo people who are still living. There, right and
so this is the second time that someone else has
traded Away shawnee territory without Asking. God, okay, yeah so
The shawnee are not done, Fighting.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
No but do you know we're not done doing listening
to advertisements for incredible products and, services.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
That's, Right that's, right yes it. IS i mostly get
ads for other, podcasts many of which are probably perfectly,
good but who.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
KNOWS i actually recently it was successfully. Influenced it took a,
decade BUT i finally bought a.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
Produm, OH i have done this, too oh.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
GOD i was like. ASHAMED i was, LIKE i should
be stronger than, this BUT i was, like you know,
what my mom would love that for the. Holidays, Well
i'll be. Goddamned maybe you'll have the same. Experience.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
Listener it's like every TIME i get An instagram ad
And i'm, like, man the algorithm that got me. Good i'm, LIKE.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
I do want those ugly ass, pants AND i want
them now.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
Absolutely well, whatever y'all already know how you feel about
ads one way or the. Other so here they. Are Andrew.
Beck so now you Have Lord Dunmore's. War clearly you've
heard of this.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
One OH i Love Lord Dunmore's. War it's one of
my favorite. Wars.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
Totally, yeah it is interesting that now it's. Switched you,
know before it Was Pontiac's, war and it's like implying
started by the you, Know ottawa people or, whatever whereas
this one's Like Lord Dunn mayor is the governor Of. Virginia,
oh so he's the one starting.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
IT i DON'T i Appreci, yeah, right BECAUSE i was,
LIKE i think if The lord's is So, european and
then you're also, like but, Yes americans were Quite. European, okay,
okay it's seventeen seventy. Four, yep, Yep i'm.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
Back so seventeen seventy. Four our Non helena is probably
like fifty six at this, point and she is pretty
much written out of this. History her, brother WHO i
believe is are peer in this, war gets literally all the.
Credit he's like one of the main chiefs in history
of this and basically anything you read because everyone spends
(18:37):
their time staying up late reading it About Lord dunmyir's.
War don't ask how LATE i stayed up right in
this episode and then couldn't. Sleep you ever stay up
slightly too late and then you're just, like, ah it's fucked.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
NOW i mean you're like it's. Done it changes throughout the,
year but there is a time where you're, like there's
no going. Back, Yeah i'm committed to tomorrow.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
Now, Yeah i'll still commit to laying down and pretending
Like i'm going to sleep for a long.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
Time but, yeah, yeah that's when the Rare wikipedia pages find. You, yeah,
totally the ones that only twelve people have, Seen.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Yeah those are the best. Ones, Yeah or when you
start looking at the talk pages on, Him oh, no,
yeah because you want to know the biases of the
people who are saying these, things.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
And sometimes you just find a little argument and it's.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
Fun oh, yeah the best. One one. Day everyone should
look At Bob Black's wikipedia talk. Page, okay, oh. Okay
there's this person who calls himself an. ANARCHIST i don't
like gaykeeping, anarchism But i'm gonna call him this way
for a, reason who wrote a bunch of stuff in
(19:43):
the eighties and, nineties and also in the eighties or,
nineties he got mad at another person in his, scene
so he snitched him out about drugs to The seattle. Police.
Oh and he defends this to this day that he
chose to snitch out this and defends it by being, like,
Well i'm an. ANARCHIST i do WHAT i.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
Want oh that's. Dirty and one of the.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
Places he defends himself is The wikipedia talk.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
Page oh oh, MAN i UNFORTUNATELY i find that very.
ENDEARING i, know The wikipedia like. Comments it is fascinating
because you're, like this is an in real time fight
for who is going to tell, history you, know like
in a day to day sense where you're, like, NO i,
(20:33):
INSIST i, yeah that is that is very.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Funny and part of his defense is that he's a
well established author whose books have been translated into many,
languages and the other guys and.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
Nobody classic, classic you can't write history BECAUSE i think
you're a. Loser and, Wow, bob come, on read the, room.
Brother that's that's really that's. Tough that's really, funny.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
Some discourse for you all to know about from a
long time, ago.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
And Serious wikipedia editors like do not fuck with them
because they will come back and be, Like i'm, sorry,
Sir all sources lead to your fucking.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
Snitch, Yeah like there's a scan of the letter he
wrote in THE i think linked in the.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
Article that's, Crazy like, no, yeah, no you're a bitch
and we have. Proof, sorry, yeah, Sorry.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
Bob, yeah SO i have no idea why we were
talking about. That But Lord dunmeir's. War, yeah so her
and her brother are. Equals, again they're you, know war
chiefs alongside each other in this war and sometimes but
not too, often or this particular where it's like mostly
one battle and it's The battle Of Point pleasant and
(21:47):
sometimes it's called the First battle of The American, revolution but,
honestly not by too many, people but by including at
least one of the sources in this show Notes Lord
dunmore was the governor Of, virginia and he put two
on mes together to go put down The shawnee And
mingo rebels who were insisting that people couldn't just fucking
come steal all their. Land and they fought On october,
(22:08):
tenth seventeenth seventy, four and Non helema And cornstock had
either three hundred or twelve hundred warriors And Done moore
had probably about one.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
Thousand talk about again that difference of the nine hundred people,
whatever yeahever, roughly, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
Totally i'm, curious, like are the people picking the higher
number because it's like all the Scrappy americans beat them
back despite superior, numbers or.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
Like, right, yeah there's a dishonest reason to make either,
CHOICE i guess.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Exactly. Yeah and The empire won that battle, too and
Non helena And cornstock surrendered and they signed a new
treaty and they said they will stay south of the.
River we'll let white people colonize the region in exchange
for a series of lies about being respected or. Whatever that,
again spoiler are never. KEPT i don't know if The
(22:58):
United states has ever honored a single, treaty and basically
in a lot of, ways it seems like this kind
of broke their. Spirit, Right they've been fighting their entire.
Lives they're not, young and the SOURCE i read about
this was sort of, fictionalized SO i don't know whether
it's true or, not BUT i Think cornstock and Presumably
(23:19):
nonjlema voted against going to war Against Lord. Dunmore, okay
but then all of the people were, like now we're
going to do, It and they're, like all, right if
that's what we're, doing we're doing, it you. Know AND
i respect. THAT i respect people being, like, HEY i
don't think we should jump off this, bridge and everyone's, like,
yeah but we're gonna jump off this. Bridge like all,
(23:40):
Right i'm not a. Coward i'm gonna do.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
IT i feel like that is a sign of an actual,
leader is like honoring the wish of your people even
if you don't agree with.
Speaker 3 (23:49):
It.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
Yeah. Yeah but at this, point when they signed that peace,
treaty they lost the respect of most of their. People
For brokerane this, piece they were, convinced almost, certainly they
were convinced it was the only way to save their,
people but they were ostracized by most of The. Shawnee
i've read, that But i've also read things that really
feel like they contradict. That but for, certainly at least
(24:11):
a while and for the rest of their, lives the
brother and the sister respected the treaty with The. Americans
and if there, is unfortunately one lesson in history is
that if you lick, boots you're going to get your
teeth kicked. In because in seventeen seventy six or, whatever
The americans decided they were tired of letting The british
(24:31):
can keep them from stealing the land of the indigenous.
People and there's also some stuff about, taxes and they
threw themselves what they like to call. Revolution but my
least popular take on social media is that it is
a lateral move at. Best every fourth Of JULY i
make this, point and people are upset with, Me but
you know, what The American revolution was a slave empire
(24:53):
that wanted to be even worse than the slave empire
was breaking off.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
From and people hate to hear.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
That, no people really don't like to hear.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
IT i like to hear, that, well they're getting drunk, Outside, yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
And it's funny because it's, LIKE i clearly am not
a particular fan of The United states continuation of a colonial.
Project but even IF i was like sold on the
ideals that they claims democracy and you, know like IF
i thought it actually represented democracy and things like, that
the only way to appreciate it would be to honestly
(25:25):
accept its, history. Right and so now we have this
like whole thing where it's, like how do you one
who says bad stuff about us in the past should be,
murdered you. Know and it's just, like, man if you
have to lie about your own past and you have
to tell everyone to lie about your own, past that's
not a good.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
Look, No BUT i feel like THAT'S i, mean it's
not Uniquely, american but so much of what makes The
American empire effective is like selling you on the false
version of history as a. Positive it was, like, whatever
one of our biggest exports is make you shit, Up.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
Yeah totally.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
Being proud of.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
It, yeah it's just. Yeah and so most of The
shawnee during The revolution are, like oh my, god fuck The.
Americans we will throw down with The british to get
The americans to fuck. Off back to The east coast
and stop them from invading, us because this was again
one of the major causes of the. War But cornstalk
and Non, helena they're non. Interventionists now they are usually
(26:22):
called neutral in The Revolutionary, war like every article about
it and be, like, oh they were. Neutral.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
Huh.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
Okay at Least Non helena sided with The, americans and
this is the heel.
Speaker 3 (26:31):
Turn.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
Okay but for some context to, this Non helema is
almost certainly AND i promised YOU i told you about
fifteenth Century europe for a, Reason Non helena is almost
certainly A. Moravian, Now. Okay she was most likely baptized
a couple years, earlier in seventeen seventy. Two some sources
(26:52):
say that she took the Name, katie but other sources
to say that that's the name her mother took when
she was. Baptized, yeah So i'm going to keep calling Her.
Nonjlema and to be, clear Being christian didn't stop her
from throwing down at seventeen seventy. Four she was, baptized
and then she led a whole lass, war you, know
And christian indigenous people threw down plenty. Hard just asked
(27:13):
the ghost ancers of one hundred and twenty years. Later
but The moravians are really into, pacifism and it seems
like she's starting to be convinced by that.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
Too, okay and.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
She's living in a time with zero good. Choices you
cannot make a good choice in this. SITUATION i still
don't love the choice that she. Made but what the
fuck position AM i to tell her what to have? Done?
Speaker 1 (27:36):
RIGHT i, mean that's it is an absolutely impossible situation
to be put.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
At. Yeah, Yeah and so On july twenty, fifth seventeen seventy,
seven she went to the garrison At Fort randolph and
warned The, americans INCLUDING i think one of her baby,
daddies who was in charge of the, fort warned The
americans there that The shawnee were going to attack. Them, oh,
okay this is that's the THAT'S i mean.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
That, yeah you can't do. That, NO i, mean you
cannot do. That after your whole, life you cannot do. That. No,
oh that's really, BAD i.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
Know but then the other complicated thing is almost all
the details we have about our life are from these
Like American patriot, pages right, Right and so you're like not,
pages but like people who are like holding her up
as this like great Because americans like that she did,
this so we know more about her decisions around, here
(28:37):
AND i think that this did actually, happen But i'm
also like, skeptical, right.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
But, again, yeah it's like so much of how indigenous
people from you, know like hundreds of tribes are described
By americans are like it's only based on like and
here's what someone did for, us and that is why
we know about them at. All that's like how they're
canonized in. History like it's, right.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
Yeah and at this, point The shawn here are like
the fuck you, LADY i mean, yeah. Fair she'd been
working as an interpreter for The americans for a while
at that, point including having kids WITH i think two of,
them Including captain McKee at the, fort and she's just
like staying with them now because she's, like, OH i
told you this, SHIT i can't go. Home that's my.
Inference then In, November cornstock and another chief Red hawk
(29:25):
show up at the fort and are like kind of
do the same, thing but they show up and are, like,
look we're trying to get our guys to not attack your,
guys but we can't stop, them And lick boots loose.
Teeth The americans Take cornstock And Red hawk and another
guy hostage to ensure that their people don't. Attack they're, like,
(29:46):
oh you showed up to warn. Us that's so. Nice
here's a jail. Cell and Then cornstock's son shows up
to talk to his dad in, jail so they arrest him. Too. God,
Yeah then Two american soldiers are ambushed and killed while
are out. Hunting so a Few american soldiers broke into
the jail cell and killed the shit out Of, Cornstalk Red,
hawk And cornstalk's.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
Kid that is just oh my, God, yeah, YEAH i,
mean you're totally. Right they shorthand like look a, boot
but that's that's.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
Yeah it's still, heartbreaking AND i feel bad making a
quick simple like, oh you're just a boot. Liquor like
this man led two wars against The, americans and finally
he hit the point where he was LIKE i don't
think this, works you.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
Know, Right And i'm sure that like they had their
rationalizations of making those impossible, choices and also LIKE i don't,
know it's like there's a million and, alsos and also
of course there are people can't, write, yeah AND.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
I don't know how much access they have to knowledge
about previous broken. TREATIES i don't know whether like because
we can look back now and be, like, oh The
americans literally never kept their word and we're always going
to do all this horrible shit right, Right but this
is like early in a lot of the. CONFLICTS i,
mean some of the conflicts have been going up for,
centuries but, like, YEAH.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
I mean we see people make survival based bargains like
this still today with you, know with centuries and centuries
and centuries deep into THE A Maryland. Project like so
it's like people people broker these deals with empires out
of desperation and, like of course you want to believe
that it's not gonna happen this time right?
Speaker 3 (31:29):
Now?
Speaker 1 (31:30):
Totally, Yeah, god that is. Heartbreaking yeah and also oh,
good does it get? Worse oh?
Speaker 2 (31:36):
Yeah uhh. Yeah this is not the low point of the.
Story oh, no yeah, no this is nearly the second
ad break and we're. Back so the Two american soldiers
who the soldiers who go and kill these folks in. Jail.
Non helena is like pretty upset about, this and they
(31:58):
are like all, right, fine we'll try. Them you'll be
shocked to know they are found innocent because none of
their other soldiers would testify against. Them The shawnee lay
siege to the fort at this, point and they're pretty
mad at Non, helena and so they kill the shit
out of a large herd of her horses and. Cattle
and the fact that she had this large herd of
horses in cattle starts making me suspicious of her. Motives
(32:19):
but at some point she does end up basically getting
a deal from The americans that she has it in
writing that says they will give her one hundred acres
OR i have read a thousand or two thousand in
exchange for her services as an interpreter and trya broke
her peace and stuff like. That spoiler. Alert they are
never going to give this to. Her at one, point
she helps disguise two white soldiers As shawnee so that
(32:40):
they could deliver a message to another, fort and The
americans win the war. FAMOUSLY a lot Of shawnee people
aren't happy with her at this point for some weird,
reason And i've read that she's had to move into
A lenape, area But i've also read that she's still
In shawnee. AREAS i don't really, know she's also A,
moravian so she might be moving into The lenape area
that are Like european and you, know yeah that.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
Blended. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
Yeah she continues her collaborationist, ways working as a guide
and a translator for THE Us Inspector general Of cavalry
in seventeen, eighty but also in seventeen, eighty her, Husband
blunthey gets a promotion of. Sorts The shawnee never had
a central government of any, kind and certainly not a
fucking king or what gets called a principal, chief but
ever since about the seventeen sixties they had to pretend
(33:26):
to have one in order to negotiate with The. Americans
so in seventeen, Eighty malunthey is voted principal chief by
The shawnee. People and he's still married to, her and
they're still hanging out even though all this other. Stuff
and that's the part WHERE i start being, like there's
holes in this, story BUT i don't know exactly which
ones they.
Speaker 3 (33:45):
Are.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
Okay by seventeen eighty, five she still hasn't gotten the
land she's been, promised and so she writes THE us
and is, like, hey CAN i am my acres, Please
and what did they. Say they were, like, yeah we're
never going to do. That but what they do is
they tell. Her it gets written as she gets a
daily food ration and an annual allowance of clothes and
(34:07):
blankets for the rest of her. Life but the actual
writing of it is, like you have to go begging
at any fort you like and they'll give you food
once a.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
Day, wow that's they give her, That and that's the
reward for turning on your own. People and that's.
Speaker 3 (34:23):
Part of the.
Speaker 2 (34:23):
Reward it's gonna get, Worse. Okay to round out this,
tragedy in seventeen eighty, six THE us invades The shawnee
area and Non helena is there with her, Husband, malantha
who's the principal. Chief And malantha surrenders right off the.
Bat he is HOLDING i, believe An american flag and
a copy of the. Treaty when they show, up he's, like, hey,
(34:47):
buds we're, Buds american. Flag, yeah we're, good you, Know
and so he surrenders right off the bat and A
us soldier kills him right then and, there just fucking
kills him with a.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
Hatchet when she's there as, well and she.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
Tries to stop it and they cut off most of
their fingers in her. Hand oh my, god and she's,
LIKE i think seventy. Eight at this, point she herself
was arrested and imprisoned for being next to her. Husband
and while she's, imprisoned she gets talked into helping write
A shawnee dictionary for the commander, there and it gets
presented as, like, maybe oh this is maybe we're like
(35:24):
The Shawnee, dictionary you, know like, no this wasn't a
grand thing for. Science it was the people who ran
that place doing a colonialism and creating a neat. Artifact
it was sent off to A russian nobleman as a,
souvenir and Non, helena best AS i can, tell disappears
from the historical. Record she either dies in jail or
sometime shortly after she's. Released God and, okay So i'm
(35:46):
going to continue the. Story is a little bit to
close out The. MORAVIANS i think hearing this helps understand
THE i, mean you can also understand why people fought
The americans just, because, like, ah and they're the fucking
invaders in every movie we've ever.
Speaker 1 (35:59):
Seen why, Not, yeah there are there's not a case
where they're not the.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
Aggressors, yeah but to close out the story by bringing
back in our sort of, friends The moravian, folks and
they're once again mostly indigenous, people living In european style,
towns going to church and Wearing european. Clothes they stayed
neutral in the, revolution and they stayed more successfully neutral
Than Non helena had, been and both sides hated them for.
(36:25):
It at one, point all The, Moravians indian And german
alike were captured by The british and sent to a
town called Captive Town, nice which isn't a good name
for a.
Speaker 1 (36:40):
Town, no we need a second draft and that you,
know the ruling power is really wielding a lot of
power if they're not even making up a name for
what they're. Doing they're, like, no this Is, Prisonerville, yeah
this is.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
We call it this fuck you. Land.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
Yeah and you're, like, oh, OKAY i guess. That, yeah
you have. Power you're not even bothering to obscure it.
Speaker 2 (37:02):
Nice. Yeah and this is The british who are and
this is during The Revolutionary, war and The british are
like slightly nicer to indigenous, people, Right and unfortunately you're
going to see the difference The british sent them To
Captive town in seventeen eighty, one and it's rough In
Captive town come.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
Winter, KIDDING i, KNOW i.
Speaker 2 (37:19):
Want to do a. MUSICAL i shouldn't come. Winter they
don't have much food In Captive. Town so one hundred
and fifty of them are allowed to go home and
gather their winter stores and like pick their crops and.
Stuff about ninety of them go to their village called
A Naden, hutton which means Nat huts or Like nat.
Town OD i, know.
Speaker 1 (37:39):
From Captive town To nattown, nice that's.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
OKAY i used to The state Of land project Called,
zuckendorf which means tick village because there's a lot of ticks.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
THERE i used to live in a rat.
Speaker 3 (37:53):
City and so while they're at home in nad And,
hutton militiamen from A america show, up and The moravians are, like,
hello humans and feed them and give them.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
Hospitality the militia men disarmed the. Folks they were, pacifists
but they had like muskets and shit for, hunting and
then they accused them of Killing americans and they were like, no,
like we're literally The christian pacifist. Town, Y'ALL i haven't
heard of.
Speaker 1 (38:20):
Us we're welcoming the captives from Captive. Town we're the.
Pacifists we're a passifist. Town. Yeah, yeah the world should
be organized like. This it would be.
Speaker 3 (38:27):
Helpful.
Speaker 2 (38:28):
Yeah people were, like, OH i live over in that. Town, yeah. Totally.
Yeah and so they, decide The american, militiamen there's about
two hundred of, them decide they're just going to kill
all of, them and the men were taken to one
barn and women were sectually assaulted and then taken to another,
barn and they spent their night Singing christian. Hymns this
is part is. Dark and then the militia killed twenty eight,
(38:49):
men twenty nine, women and thirty nine children and scalped
them and burned the barns with their, bodies and at
least three children. Survived one had been hidden under the
floor boards with another kid and then crawled out through a,
hole but his friend that was with him had been
too big and couldn't get out the fucking hole and
died in the. Fire another kid survived being scalped and
(39:12):
crawled away to, safety and then at least one. Kid,
okay so the two hundred militiamen before they were, like,
oh we're going to kill. You they took a vote
democracy and action.
Speaker 1 (39:21):
Everyone, Wow, okay that's that's. Huge it's just like when
they tried the criminals by the people who were afraid
of the criminals and they were found. Innocent, yeah, exactly really,
good that's. Awesome.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
Okay eighteen of the militiamen voted against, it and for
years people thought those eighteen just like stood aside and
let it. Happen but it turns out several of them rescued.
Kids AND i don't know whether this cleans your soul or.
NOT i actually think if you're in the, situation you
have a moral obligation to go down fighting your own
friends before they massacre. People but, yeah, whatever, again.
Speaker 1 (39:53):
This is a. Story but what happens when you don't do? That, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:58):
Several of them rescued, kids at least one, kid probably,
more and hid them in the. Bushes and the one
kid that we know about was raised by the white
guy who had rescued, him and then as soon as
he was old, enough he went back to a Remaining
moravian settlement and reunited with his surviving. Family and you
know that the militia people robbed the shit out of
the people they. Killed they left with eighty pack horses
(40:18):
worth of. Loot and the massacre victims are Considered Moravian christian.
Martyrs and there's a nasty parallel with A i forgot
to put it into my script WHEN i did an
episode about The. Zapatistas there was A Christian pacifist indigenous
village in the LIKE i want to say eighties or
early nineties that was.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
Massacred wait the seventeen, eighties, no or thee, eighties, yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:44):
Whoa there was a church In chiapas in Southeastern mexico
where people trying to reestablish local control attached to the
right wing government went and were, like y'all are too
rowdy or, related too close to The. Zapatistas and even
though they're, like, well actually we don't support them because
they're armed and we're, pacifists and they're like you're, What,
(41:05):
oh we could just kill you and they just killed.
Speaker 3 (41:09):
Them.
Speaker 2 (41:09):
OH i hate how much this happens in, history is
that pacifists get.
Speaker 1 (41:12):
Massacred, yeah, yeah fuck, Fuck.
Speaker 2 (41:19):
And the massacre victims are Considered Moravian christian. Murdyers just.
Fitting and the Reason i'm including this is not just
As i'm, like here's a bad. THING i think it's
important to understand word of this massacre spread far and,
wide and As otter put, it my, friend who's one
of the main sources for, this if quote natives who
(41:41):
had done the right thing by fully Welcoming christianity and
Adopting eurocentric practices could be butchered and receive no. Justice
none of us, will. Okay and so that's the kind
of KEY i think a thing that changed in acts
attitudes around like how are we going to relate with The.
(42:02):
Americans one guy who did this massacre was a close
friend Of George. Washington his name Was William. Crawford everyone
in THE us government maintained, like, no our Guy crawford wasn't,
there because this was actually beyond the, Pale like Some
americans were, like, oh we should have done.
Speaker 1 (42:18):
That, WELL i love to hear what colonists views as
the line.
Speaker 2 (42:23):
Totally, okay, yeah not so far past the life that
they'll do anything about.
Speaker 1 (42:27):
It but you, know like, no but they're, like but
we'll just pretend he wasn't.
Speaker 2 (42:30):
There, yeah what's funny is that a little bit more,
recently historians have records of everyone who got paid to be,
there And William crawford is on that. List so whether
or not he was, there he was paid.
Speaker 1 (42:39):
To be there profited From. Okay.
Speaker 2 (42:42):
Yeah and the reason that people want to claim that
he wasn't there is because those, terrible, awful Barbarous indigenous.
PEOPLE a couple months, Later William crawford was off to
raid moral And nape folks and kill, them and a
whole coalition Of indigenous folks and a Few british allies
just fucked them all up and they Captured William. Crawford
The lenape put him on trial for the. Massacre he
(43:04):
was found guilty and they killed. Him but it's like
and he was burned, alive which is probably, true and fuck.
HIM i don't.
Speaker 1 (43:10):
Care but, yeah it's, like.
Speaker 2 (43:12):
What do you think make him?
Speaker 1 (43:15):
Do?
Speaker 2 (43:15):
Yeah, Yeah, yeah that's what they got for. You the
story of a woman stuck in an impossible, situation who
lived a fucking badass life and for so, long and who,
learned like so many people had to, learn that you
just shouldn't fucking trust colonial. Governments.
Speaker 1 (43:33):
Yeah it's a. TRAGEDY i, mean it's it's an oversimplification to.
Say it's like she lived long enough to become a
villain to her own people and then to still die
tragically in the way that she.
Speaker 2 (43:45):
Did and kind of like learned she learned the danger
of doing. That they came and they cut off her,
fingers killed her, husband and then she probably died in,
jail you, know and it's like she kind of learned her.
Lesson i'm not trying to be, like.
Speaker 1 (43:58):
Oh she got what YOU i, mean just like it's
hard because these histories exist but are obscured so frequently
it becomes hard to learn from history that is being
kept from. You.
Speaker 2 (44:10):
Yeah, yeah because there's still there's so many holes in
this story and there's like so much mythmaking done around
her That i'm, LIKE i don't, know you. Know and
also it's just like hero making is always. COMPLICATED i don't.
Know i'm, like when she's in her forties and fifties
leading like in a pretty fucking righteous war against the,
(44:30):
empire like she's pretty fucking. Cool. YEAH i want to
shout Out otter again for turning me onto the story
and providing the. Notes AND i want to tell everyone
that if you're into this kind of. History you should
check out their blog on, substack which is Called greetings
From Sundown ohio Or sundownohio dot substack dot com and
A Happy Thanksgiving. Day killjoy strikes. Again this is going
(45:01):
to be something that's going to be sitting in my
head and for Weeks i'm gonna be, LIKE i told
this story. Wrong BUT i don't know How i'll be
convinced of.
Speaker 1 (45:07):
That you're so amazing at your, job because it's like
you're given a you, know distinct also high, stakes also
difficult to research by design that not enough people are talking.
About LIKE i don't know how you do. IT i
don't know how you do. IT i didn't know about
most of this, histories BUT i thought you did a great.
Job oh, THANKS i think you're just.
Speaker 2 (45:28):
Amazing it's, hard you, Know and it's LIKE i, know
on some level every now and Then i'm, LIKE i
shouldn't really be using my podcast to like sit and
make my moral judgments on the. History and Then i'm, like,
WELL i want people to only accept What i'm saying
if they resonate with, it, right you, Know and Like
i'm still trying really hard TO i just try and
be upfront about my, biases but this one just has
(45:49):
me confused and sad and angry and, like you, know
just like it's just really sitting in that thought like
this changes a little bit about HOW i, think just
like sitting there trying to think through these people in
these impossible, situations and like IT'S.
Speaker 1 (46:10):
I, felt at least as you were sharing this history
that like you can feel that like here is like
this woman who's been putting this impossible situation and she's
just hoping this is the right. Thing, yeah it doesn't
seem like any of these choices are made to, personally you,
know enrich her self. Personally it's like we're taking a
(46:31):
gamble by trusting the least trustworthy people maybe on the
planet right, now to see if it will save. Us
and of course it. Doesn't but like.
Speaker 2 (46:42):
But neither would have fighting and right and she just
she can't look back from history and say, like, ah,
well of course this was the right, thing you, know exactly.
Speaker 1 (46:50):
Exactly it's just it's it's. Tragic thank you for telling
me about. Her at the end of the, DAY i
really hope she was six' six me tim be, Cold
COMFORT but i really wish that she was, Six, six.
Speaker 2 (47:03):
Yeah totally and everyone was just fucking terrified, of her,
and like there's this whole THING that i only kind
of hinted that where, it's like it's possible that the
reason that she stopped being a war chief to a
lot of people was Because the americans wouldn't fuck with
a woman who is, they like wouldn't coordinate with. A woman. You,
(47:24):
know anyway you got anything you want?
Speaker 1 (47:26):
To, Plug YEAH so i didn't think to plug this
for the, first episode but this week On The, bechdel
Cast Our Intersectional feminis, movie podcast we are re releasing
an episode with one of our, Dear Friends, jess merwin
On a canadian Indigenous movie Rhymes For, young gruls which
if you haven't, seen it you should check. It out
it is a story told from the perspective of a,
(47:49):
teenage girl takes place on A mick, mock reservation and
it is the revenge story that revolves around. Reservation schools oh.
Fuck him check out the movie and then check out.
The episode you want To hear jess as an incredible
guest and an, Incredible artist so check.
Speaker 2 (48:05):
It out. Fuck you THE thing i want to plug
is that anti colonial resistance is real, and ongoing and
the people that even are in, this story like the
peoples that we're, talking about, still here and, you know
five hundred years is a very, long time but it's
not an infinitely. Long time and it also isn't all
like People teach, american history even sometimes Leftist teach american
(48:26):
history like the fight is over and. It's not and,
so yeah but to, carry yourselves be good to, each
other and see y'all.
Speaker 1 (48:33):
Next Week Cool People Who Did cool stuff is a
production Of Fool. Zone media for more podcasts And Cool,
zone media visit Our website folezonemedia, dot com or check
us OUT On I, heard, Radio app I'm, a podcast
or wherever you get.
Speaker 2 (48:48):
Your podcasts
Cool Zone Media.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Hello, and welcome to Kopbooted Cool Stuff, your weekly reminder
that history is cool and uh oh god, that makes
me sound like I'm about to turn my chair backwards
and sit on it with a backwards baseball cap.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
You're right, I should get confirmed. God is cool.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
This would be like a college dropout trying to convince
someone to finish their degree.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
If I told you to get confirmed, I never got confirmed.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
I didn't either. But my guest, my unconfirmed guest, is
Jamie Loftus Hi.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Hi. Yeah, I'm not whole in the eyes of God.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
No.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
No.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
I actually originally Jamie was going to be my guest
for the Halloween episode. Originally, but things got in the
way and I had been planning on specifically saying the
Halloween episode is about druids. Yes, And I was going
to say, Jamie, you're from Boston, that makes you basically Irish.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
I am actually three quarters.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Oh okay cool. Yeah, that had been my plan when
I was going to talk about Truid's so and then
I actually mostly talked about France and Britain.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Anyway, Hey, familiar to this week? Yeah yeah, yeah. And
the reason I wasn't on the Halloween episode is because
an animal died in my walls in a way that
felt very like, first of all, it's sad, yeah, and
then also it's hard not to view it as like
a sign. It's hard not to view like when your
whole house smells like rot and death, it's hard not
(01:36):
to take it personally. And I was taking a que personally.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Especially when the veil is then whether or not you
believe in that, it's still just things are extra spooky
and fall no matter what you believe in.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
The timing was very suspicious. Yeah, I was like, first
of all, the animal spirit has passed into her home.
I hope they're not trapped. And also, boy did the
vessel smell like fucking shit?
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Bad, bad.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
I think it's probably good that the maybe single most
core thing that scent does is say that smells like death.
Leave now, Yes, But when it's your home, you.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Can't your home, you have no choice, and the chemicals do.
I think I was like placebo affecting myself, but I
was convinced that the chemicals were starting to get into
my head.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
I would have convinced myself that very quickly.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
I understand I was allowed to get into any pedantic
argument I wanted because of the chemicals.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Right, but does that also apply to everyone else in
the house?
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Certainly not, certainly not.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
You'll let you get the excuse of the chemicals. This
is good to know.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
I'm built a little different and so the chemicals are
going to affect me because I'm very sensitive.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Okay, we are on part two of a two parter
about non Helema, a Shawnee warrior and chief and interpreter.
And oh, the first half of this post story is
going to be good, but the last, the heel turn,
is gonna heal turn. But we'll get to that later.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Wait, Okay, I'm curious. Yeah, I'm like, I don't really
have a guess.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
I almost feel bad. We'll get to it. We'll talk
about when we get to it, but first we should
talk about the fact that we have an audio engineer
named Eva hi Eva hi Eva, and our theme music
was written for us by unwoman. And I promised you
Pontiac's war you did, which is not a Mad Max
thing with cars.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
I'm like trying to be better about when I just
don't know something that is embarrassing to not know. I
did not know who Pontiac was until today.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
No, I think that's good. I remember when it became
this like very direct change, when I stopped smiling and nodding,
when my theory bros were like, oh, you know, like
the postmodern Delusian concept of whatever or whatever, when I
started just being like, I don't know what that is,
and like not even asking, yeah, not even necessarily asking
what it is, just telling them being like, you're making
(04:08):
a reference that I don't get.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
I feel like specifically now because I got so accustomed
to pretending that I knew they either because you're like
I don't I'm not interested and I don't want to
hear more, or alternatively, I feel like now it's I
don't know that like chunk of Twitter years where everyone
had to pretend to know everything and have an informed
(04:31):
opinion about it. You're like, that's a motherfucker to shake
off it.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Is, and like that's like one of the things I've
been thinking about, Like even like the French and Indian Warm.
I've had to look up what the French Indian War
is so many times because of the show, because it
directly affects an awful lot about how people resisted the
American Empire and I still forget what year it was,
like what the even some of the broad strokes are
(04:55):
and I'm just like instead of just being like, oh, well,
everyone knows about Pontiacs War, like you know what, I
didn't know about Pontiac's War. It's fine. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
And also because like the reasons that we don't know
about Pontiac's War are historically significant.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Totally, because it is painted as if Pontiac was the
bad guy and lost, and so it was just like
yet another successful win for the American is soon to
be patriotic revolutionaries, you know, yeehaw. Yeah. And so basically
France had just lost the French and Indian War and
(05:30):
given Ohio roughly the Ohio Valley to the British. But
the people who lived there were like, no, that's not
we live here. And so a fuck ton of different
nations came together and went to war together. It's called
Pontiac's War because one of the charismatic leaders, one of
the two people who are named and I forgot to
(05:51):
write down the other person's name, like most of historians,
one of the two people who's like mostly credited bringing
the tribes together to fight against a common enemy was
Chief pont in the Act of the Ottawa People. Although
now that I know how much non Jlemo's written out
of everything, I'm wondering if he had another like female
counterpart who's just also entirely written out of the story
by the white people who wrote it.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
Safe to say, I mean, I feel like every historical
figure you know, there's someone erased behind them, I guess,
irrespective of gender.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Yeah, And I'm not trying to dismiss Chief Piani. I
don't know enough about him. I haven't a deep dived
him yet. It's the kind of thing I might at
some point, and for a while they push back the
empire really effectively. The good guys do lose that war
in the end. But along the way non Helema became
a war chief. And presumably this happened in the way
where like they have that bilateral thing that I was
(06:40):
talking about, where you have the two lodges, and then
the women's lodge splits into the matriarch's war Council. My
understanding is that she would have then been elected by
that as a war chief. But that is an inference
on my part, because no one bothers writing that. Where
I have found it. Yet there's a lot of books
written about this that I'm not trying to be like
no one writes about it. I'm like, yeah, I have
a week to write these things. Right, she might have
(07:01):
actually been a war chief prior to that, in the
French and Indian War. It would make a lot of
sense for her have been doing that. She was certainly
chief of her area, and like would have made sense.
And her brother Cornstock, is a war chief in Pontiac's
War two, and this is considered really auspicious and good
to be led by a brother and sister team. Okay,
because in that bilateral system where you men and women's
(07:23):
councils doing the war councils, having a woman and her
husband in charge is seen as great. But a sister
and a brother is like even better, right, And I
find that really sweet. Both parts of that.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
It it weirdly makes sense to me. I mean, I
know that there's whatever history is littered with examples of
sibling follouts with global consequences. Yeah, but with a good
sibling bond, like that's I feel like a good sibling
bond can be stronger than marriage.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
I think so too, And I think that that's The
implication is that because they have been working together on
some level since infancy, or at least since one of
them was an infant, I think that she is the older,
but I'm not sure so even more than Yeah, the
bond between a husband and wife is a sister and
her brother. If again they get along all right.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
Yeah, someone who knew you with your original set of teeth.
That's powerful.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Yeah, totally when you had a shark mouth. Have you
ever seen kids? Actually, I bring this up all the time.
This is the scariest thing I've ever seen in my life. Yes,
the existential horror that is children's faces.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
And it's exciting because you get five dollars sometimes, So
there's a capitalistic element.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
That's true. That's true.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
Teeth, Yeah, yes, the commodifying of the child's mouth.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
I think it's to make the child less of a shark,
just like, really reward them for being less scary. If
anyone ever wants to give themselves minor nightmares, just go
ahead and google a child's mouth x ray, and then
good luck looking at children the same. So she went
into battle, and this is the what mid sixties. She's
like forty eight at this point, and we don't have.
(09:08):
The things I've read have been like, look, she probably
physically fought, but we don't one hundred percent know that.
But I think we have every reason to believe it,
especially with like some of the nicknames that she's going
to be getting in a.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
Minute, especially if she's like a seasoned leader in this
in this area too.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
Yeah. Yeah, the whole lead from the back thing is
like a I think, a newer cultural concept in a
lot of places. I don't know as much about Shawne
culture as relates to this, but I know in a
lot of places, like the lead from the back thing
isn't going to fly. People are like, hey, you want
us to die and you don't have any skin in
the game. No, I don't get it.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
Yeah, that for me is a non starter.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Yeah, exactly. So she goes into battle painted all black
and naked according to some sources. In other sources that
I believe are doing a modesty claim that she's naked
except for a loincloth and sandals.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
Oh yeah, like digitally editing clothes on.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Yeah, don't worry.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
In other versions of this, she painted half of her
face black for death and the other half red for
blood drama.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
I like it.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
I like that so much. We know that she fought
at least in the Battle of Bushy Run, which was
a turning point in the war. Unfortunately, it was a
bad turning point. Basically, you know, the evil Empire spreading
into the good guy's alliance side, and they're you know,
they have set up all these forts, and so Pontiac's war,
(10:42):
they're like, we're gonna take all the forts, and they
take like nine out of eleven of them or something
like that. Right away. They just sort like, fuck it,
let's go, and they take all these forts. But there's
this one fort, Fort pitt which I believe is where
Pittsburgh gets its name. But I have been more certain
about things, and it's kind of the entrance to the
Ohio Valley, which is basically like sense later. I mean,
(11:04):
a lot of the American Revolution is literally going to
be white settlers who are like, but we want to
go west and take more stuff, and the king doesn't
want to let us. And it takes a lot to
make me make a whiny voice defending the King of England.
Like as discussed earlier, I'm also irish, you know, and
not my favorite thing to do. So Fort Pitt is
(11:26):
like one of the most fortified forts in the war.
That's where fort gets their.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
Name, the fortiest fort.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
Yeah. Absolutely, it's the fortieth fort. I'm out of puns.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
Let's move to Pitt. There's plenty of pit puns.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Absolutely, absolutely. Oh there's gonna be a real bad pit
story later. But oh, I'm sorry. The colonists were real
fucked up anyway.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
No one's ever said that before. I'm so glad.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
I know. It's funny because whenever you read these histories,
it's always like, well, there's atrocities on both sides, and
they just like leave it at that.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
You're like, okay, cities in the room with us, Like.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
What do you Yeah, totally like, is there a difference
in systemic power between these two groups of people.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
Oh, don't worry about don't you worry yet?
Speaker 3 (12:08):
It.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
So they lay siege to Fort Pitt. They're sieging it
for several days, but then they see a British army
marching nearby, like coming up alongside i think, kind of
to flank them, and they're like, all right, we got
to go fucking attack that. We're going to ambush them,
and they lose and the war starts to turn against
the Indigenous folks at that point. But what's funny, most
historical sources on this will be like kind of neutral
(12:31):
and just present the facts as they understand it. But
you see some that are like it was the scrappy
Brits who were outnumbered but stood there ground and won
the day. There's a movie out from a couple of
years ago when I was googling for the Battle of
Bushy Run, and it's like this weird propaganda film about
(12:52):
like as if we're back still in like whenever they
made all of the worst Indian Wars movies, there's a
new one.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
I mean, you could really make an argument for a
lot of decades. I worry because it's happening that like
any like surge forward in like indigenous cinema in the
US and in Canada from the last fifteen or twenty years.
I mean, like the movies will continue to exist, the
creatives are still there, but it's like we're gonna start
getting those big ten pole like fake ass history movies
(13:20):
again because of yeah, you're probably right, yeah, so look
up for that.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
Yeah. And I don't know, I haven't seen this movie,
but it seems to be from the point of view
of the scrappy Brits and their highlander friends, because it
was you know, highlander soldiers or whatever. It was a
big part of this whatever. And yeah, some sources be
like the scrappy Brits were outnumbered, but they stood their
ground against the evil Hordes or whatever and won the day.
(13:49):
It was about five hundred veteran British soldiers with like
modern arms versus about three hundred to five hundred warriors. Okay,
so that's not what they're saying. Yeah, after a few
days of fighting, they ambush the Brits. The Brits fall back,
they build a defensive fortification out of like bags of
oats and shit, and they hold off for a little while,
(14:11):
and then they counter ambush and they send the enemy
into a route and the British like random down and
killed them as best as I can tell, Okay. And
after that defeat, this is the turning point of Pontiac's war.
The British. The way they really win is not on
the battlefield. They start picking tribes off out of the
coalition by going and offering them one on one treaties,
(14:33):
being like, hey, you want to, you know, break the
rebel alliance by you.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
Know, God joining us, and how many versions of that
has happened over history of like, let's break down the
solidarity of these disparate groups and that's how we will
continue our evil project. I know this song. I know
this song.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
It's happening right now, Okay. Yeah, and non Helena earned
a fearsome reputation during this war, and the British honored
her by giving her a slur nickname. They called her
the Grenadier and then a slur that's still used today
against Native women.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
God okay, and the slur.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
Part, I'm like, yeah, I know where they came up
with that grenadier were They were basically the shock troops
of Western Europe at the time, because you wanted the biggest, strongest,
like the physically strongest soldiers for the job to stand
there and throw grenades. Okay, and later the grenadiers become
like the tip of the spear, like the kind of
(15:39):
pre marine marines in Western European militaries.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
And so really big folks are the grenadiers, and so
this is like part of why the whole she's actually
probably very tall, It's probably true, okay, because they gave
her a nickname.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
Right now, I'm getting closer to being sold on six
six want to leave six'?
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Six, Yeah and so they called her whole town The
Grenadier slurs. Town and eventually in seventeen sixty, eight remember
how The french were, like, yeah y'all can Have ohio
were not using? It, well now The Iroquois federation are
also going to give Away ohio in a. Treaty they
claim most Of ohio. Territory they sign a treaty with
(16:21):
The empire to, say, yeah you can settle. There but
they were just speaking for, themselves not The shawnee or
The mingo people who are still living. There, right and
so this is the second time that someone else has
traded Away shawnee territory without Asking. God, okay, yeah so
The shawnee are not done, Fighting.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
No but do you know we're not done doing listening
to advertisements for incredible products and, services.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
That's, Right that's, right yes it. IS i mostly get
ads for other, podcasts many of which are probably perfectly,
good but who.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
KNOWS i actually recently it was successfully. Influenced it took a,
decade BUT i finally bought a.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
Produm, OH i have done this, too oh.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
GOD i was like. ASHAMED i was, LIKE i should
be stronger than, this BUT i was, like you know,
what my mom would love that for the. Holidays, Well
i'll be. Goddamned maybe you'll have the same. Experience.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
Listener it's like every TIME i get An instagram ad
And i'm, like, man the algorithm that got me. Good i'm, LIKE.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
I do want those ugly ass, pants AND i want
them now.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
Absolutely well, whatever y'all already know how you feel about
ads one way or the. Other so here they. Are Andrew.
Beck so now you Have Lord Dunmore's. War clearly you've
heard of this.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
One OH i Love Lord Dunmore's. War it's one of
my favorite. Wars.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
Totally, yeah it is interesting that now it's. Switched you,
know before it Was Pontiac's, war and it's like implying
started by the you, Know ottawa people or, whatever whereas
this one's Like Lord Dunn mayor is the governor Of. Virginia,
oh so he's the one starting.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
IT i DON'T i Appreci, yeah, right BECAUSE i was,
LIKE i think if The lord's is So, european and
then you're also, like but, Yes americans were Quite. European, okay,
okay it's seventeen seventy. Four, yep, Yep i'm.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
Back so seventeen seventy. Four our Non helena is probably
like fifty six at this, point and she is pretty
much written out of this. History her, brother WHO i
believe is are peer in this, war gets literally all the.
Credit he's like one of the main chiefs in history
of this and basically anything you read because everyone spends
(18:37):
their time staying up late reading it About Lord dunmyir's.
War don't ask how LATE i stayed up right in
this episode and then couldn't. Sleep you ever stay up
slightly too late and then you're just, like, ah it's fucked.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
NOW i mean you're like it's. Done it changes throughout the,
year but there is a time where you're, like there's
no going. Back, Yeah i'm committed to tomorrow.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
Now, Yeah i'll still commit to laying down and pretending
Like i'm going to sleep for a long.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
Time but, yeah, yeah that's when the Rare wikipedia pages find. You, yeah,
totally the ones that only twelve people have, Seen.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Yeah those are the best. Ones, Yeah or when you
start looking at the talk pages on, Him oh, no,
yeah because you want to know the biases of the
people who are saying these, things.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
And sometimes you just find a little argument and it's.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
Fun oh, yeah the best. One one. Day everyone should
look At Bob Black's wikipedia talk. Page, okay, oh. Okay
there's this person who calls himself an. ANARCHIST i don't
like gaykeeping, anarchism But i'm gonna call him this way
for a, reason who wrote a bunch of stuff in
(19:43):
the eighties and, nineties and also in the eighties or,
nineties he got mad at another person in his, scene
so he snitched him out about drugs to The seattle. Police.
Oh and he defends this to this day that he
chose to snitch out this and defends it by being, like,
Well i'm an. ANARCHIST i do WHAT i.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
Want oh that's. Dirty and one of the.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
Places he defends himself is The wikipedia talk.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
Page oh oh, MAN i UNFORTUNATELY i find that very.
ENDEARING i, know The wikipedia like. Comments it is fascinating
because you're, like this is an in real time fight
for who is going to tell, history you, know like
in a day to day sense where you're, like, NO i,
(20:33):
INSIST i, yeah that is that is very.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Funny and part of his defense is that he's a
well established author whose books have been translated into many,
languages and the other guys and.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
Nobody classic, classic you can't write history BECAUSE i think
you're a. Loser and, Wow, bob come, on read the, room.
Brother that's that's really that's. Tough that's really, funny.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
Some discourse for you all to know about from a
long time, ago.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
And Serious wikipedia editors like do not fuck with them
because they will come back and be, Like i'm, sorry,
Sir all sources lead to your fucking.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
Snitch, Yeah like there's a scan of the letter he
wrote in THE i think linked in the.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
Article that's, Crazy like, no, yeah, no you're a bitch
and we have. Proof, sorry, yeah, Sorry.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
Bob, yeah SO i have no idea why we were
talking about. That But Lord dunmeir's. War, yeah so her
and her brother are. Equals, again they're you, know war
chiefs alongside each other in this war and sometimes but
not too, often or this particular where it's like mostly
one battle and it's The battle Of Point pleasant and
(21:47):
sometimes it's called the First battle of The American, revolution but,
honestly not by too many, people but by including at
least one of the sources in this show Notes Lord
dunmore was the governor Of, virginia and he put two
on mes together to go put down The shawnee And
mingo rebels who were insisting that people couldn't just fucking
come steal all their. Land and they fought On october,
(22:08):
tenth seventeenth seventy, four and Non helema And cornstock had
either three hundred or twelve hundred warriors And Done moore
had probably about one.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
Thousand talk about again that difference of the nine hundred people,
whatever yeahever, roughly, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
Totally i'm, curious, like are the people picking the higher
number because it's like all the Scrappy americans beat them
back despite superior, numbers or.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
Like, right, yeah there's a dishonest reason to make either,
CHOICE i guess.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Exactly. Yeah and The empire won that battle, too and
Non helena And cornstock surrendered and they signed a new
treaty and they said they will stay south of the.
River we'll let white people colonize the region in exchange
for a series of lies about being respected or. Whatever that,
again spoiler are never. KEPT i don't know if The
(22:58):
United states has ever honored a single, treaty and basically
in a lot of, ways it seems like this kind
of broke their. Spirit, Right they've been fighting their entire.
Lives they're not, young and the SOURCE i read about
this was sort of, fictionalized SO i don't know whether
it's true or, not BUT i Think cornstock and Presumably
(23:19):
nonjlema voted against going to war Against Lord. Dunmore, okay
but then all of the people were, like now we're
going to do, It and they're, like all, right if
that's what we're, doing we're doing, it you. Know AND
i respect. THAT i respect people being, like, HEY i
don't think we should jump off this, bridge and everyone's, like,
yeah but we're gonna jump off this. Bridge like all,
(23:40):
Right i'm not a. Coward i'm gonna do.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
IT i feel like that is a sign of an actual,
leader is like honoring the wish of your people even
if you don't agree with.
Speaker 3 (23:49):
It.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
Yeah. Yeah but at this, point when they signed that peace,
treaty they lost the respect of most of their. People
For brokerane this, piece they were, convinced almost, certainly they
were convinced it was the only way to save their,
people but they were ostracized by most of The. Shawnee
i've read, that But i've also read things that really
feel like they contradict. That but for, certainly at least
(24:11):
a while and for the rest of their, lives the
brother and the sister respected the treaty with The. Americans
and if there, is unfortunately one lesson in history is
that if you lick, boots you're going to get your
teeth kicked. In because in seventeen seventy six or, whatever
The americans decided they were tired of letting The british
(24:31):
can keep them from stealing the land of the indigenous.
People and there's also some stuff about, taxes and they
threw themselves what they like to call. Revolution but my
least popular take on social media is that it is
a lateral move at. Best every fourth Of JULY i
make this, point and people are upset with, Me but
you know, what The American revolution was a slave empire
(24:53):
that wanted to be even worse than the slave empire
was breaking off.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
From and people hate to hear.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
That, no people really don't like to hear.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
IT i like to hear, that, well they're getting drunk, Outside, yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
And it's funny because it's, LIKE i clearly am not
a particular fan of The United states continuation of a colonial.
Project but even IF i was like sold on the
ideals that they claims democracy and you, know like IF
i thought it actually represented democracy and things like, that
the only way to appreciate it would be to honestly
(25:25):
accept its, history. Right and so now we have this
like whole thing where it's, like how do you one
who says bad stuff about us in the past should be,
murdered you. Know and it's just, like, man if you
have to lie about your own past and you have
to tell everyone to lie about your own, past that's
not a good.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
Look, No BUT i feel like THAT'S i, mean it's
not Uniquely, american but so much of what makes The
American empire effective is like selling you on the false
version of history as a. Positive it was, like, whatever
one of our biggest exports is make you shit, Up.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
Yeah totally.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
Being proud of.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
It, yeah it's just. Yeah and so most of The
shawnee during The revolution are, like oh my, god fuck The.
Americans we will throw down with The british to get
The americans to fuck. Off back to The east coast
and stop them from invading, us because this was again
one of the major causes of the. War But cornstalk
and Non, helena they're non. Interventionists now they are usually
(26:22):
called neutral in The Revolutionary, war like every article about
it and be, like, oh they were. Neutral.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
Huh.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
Okay at Least Non helena sided with The, americans and
this is the heel.
Speaker 3 (26:31):
Turn.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
Okay but for some context to, this Non helema is
almost certainly AND i promised YOU i told you about
fifteenth Century europe for a, Reason Non helena is almost
certainly A. Moravian, Now. Okay she was most likely baptized
a couple years, earlier in seventeen seventy. Two some sources
(26:52):
say that she took the Name, katie but other sources
to say that that's the name her mother took when
she was. Baptized, yeah So i'm going to keep calling Her.
Nonjlema and to be, clear Being christian didn't stop her
from throwing down at seventeen seventy. Four she was, baptized
and then she led a whole lass, war you, know
And christian indigenous people threw down plenty. Hard just asked
(27:13):
the ghost ancers of one hundred and twenty years. Later
but The moravians are really into, pacifism and it seems
like she's starting to be convinced by that.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
Too, okay and.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
She's living in a time with zero good. Choices you
cannot make a good choice in this. SITUATION i still
don't love the choice that she. Made but what the
fuck position AM i to tell her what to have? Done?
Speaker 1 (27:36):
RIGHT i, mean that's it is an absolutely impossible situation
to be put.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
At. Yeah, Yeah and so On july twenty, fifth seventeen seventy,
seven she went to the garrison At Fort randolph and
warned The, americans INCLUDING i think one of her baby,
daddies who was in charge of the, fort warned The
americans there that The shawnee were going to attack. Them, oh,
okay this is that's the THAT'S i mean.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
That, yeah you can't do. That, NO i, mean you
cannot do. That after your whole, life you cannot do. That. No,
oh that's really, BAD i.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
Know but then the other complicated thing is almost all
the details we have about our life are from these
Like American patriot, pages right, Right and so you're like not,
pages but like people who are like holding her up
as this like great Because americans like that she did,
this so we know more about her decisions around, here
(28:37):
AND i think that this did actually, happen But i'm
also like, skeptical, right.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
But, again, yeah it's like so much of how indigenous
people from you, know like hundreds of tribes are described
By americans are like it's only based on like and
here's what someone did for, us and that is why
we know about them at. All that's like how they're
canonized in. History like it's, right.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
Yeah and at this, point The shawn here are like
the fuck you, LADY i mean, yeah. Fair she'd been
working as an interpreter for The americans for a while
at that, point including having kids WITH i think two of,
them Including captain McKee at the, fort and she's just
like staying with them now because she's, like, OH i
told you this, SHIT i can't go. Home that's my.
Inference then In, November cornstock and another chief Red hawk
(29:25):
show up at the fort and are like kind of
do the same, thing but they show up and are, like,
look we're trying to get our guys to not attack your,
guys but we can't stop, them And lick boots loose.
Teeth The americans Take cornstock And Red hawk and another
guy hostage to ensure that their people don't. Attack they're, like,
(29:46):
oh you showed up to warn. Us that's so. Nice
here's a jail. Cell and Then cornstock's son shows up
to talk to his dad in, jail so they arrest him. Too. God,
Yeah then Two american soldiers are ambushed and killed while
are out. Hunting so a Few american soldiers broke into
the jail cell and killed the shit out Of, Cornstalk Red,
hawk And cornstalk's.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
Kid that is just oh my, God, yeah, YEAH i,
mean you're totally. Right they shorthand like look a, boot
but that's that's.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
Yeah it's still, heartbreaking AND i feel bad making a
quick simple like, oh you're just a boot. Liquor like
this man led two wars against The, americans and finally
he hit the point where he was LIKE i don't
think this, works you.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
Know, Right And i'm sure that like they had their
rationalizations of making those impossible, choices and also LIKE i don't,
know it's like there's a million and, alsos and also
of course there are people can't, write, yeah AND.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
I don't know how much access they have to knowledge
about previous broken. TREATIES i don't know whether like because
we can look back now and be, like, oh The
americans literally never kept their word and we're always going
to do all this horrible shit right, Right but this
is like early in a lot of the. CONFLICTS i,
mean some of the conflicts have been going up for,
centuries but, like, YEAH.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
I mean we see people make survival based bargains like
this still today with you, know with centuries and centuries
and centuries deep into THE A Maryland. Project like so
it's like people people broker these deals with empires out
of desperation and, like of course you want to believe
that it's not gonna happen this time right?
Speaker 3 (31:29):
Now?
Speaker 1 (31:30):
Totally, Yeah, god that is. Heartbreaking yeah and also oh,
good does it get? Worse oh?
Speaker 2 (31:36):
Yeah uhh. Yeah this is not the low point of the.
Story oh, no yeah, no this is nearly the second
ad break and we're. Back so the Two american soldiers
who the soldiers who go and kill these folks in. Jail.
Non helena is like pretty upset about, this and they
(31:58):
are like all, right, fine we'll try. Them you'll be
shocked to know they are found innocent because none of
their other soldiers would testify against. Them The shawnee lay
siege to the fort at this, point and they're pretty
mad at Non, helena and so they kill the shit
out of a large herd of her horses and. Cattle
and the fact that she had this large herd of
horses in cattle starts making me suspicious of her. Motives
(32:19):
but at some point she does end up basically getting
a deal from The americans that she has it in
writing that says they will give her one hundred acres
OR i have read a thousand or two thousand in
exchange for her services as an interpreter and trya broke
her peace and stuff like. That spoiler. Alert they are
never going to give this to. Her at one, point
she helps disguise two white soldiers As shawnee so that
(32:40):
they could deliver a message to another, fort and The
americans win the war. FAMOUSLY a lot Of shawnee people
aren't happy with her at this point for some weird,
reason And i've read that she's had to move into
A lenape, area But i've also read that she's still
In shawnee. AREAS i don't really, know she's also A,
moravian so she might be moving into The lenape area
that are Like european and you, know yeah that.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
Blended. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
Yeah she continues her collaborationist, ways working as a guide
and a translator for THE Us Inspector general Of cavalry
in seventeen, eighty but also in seventeen, eighty her, Husband
blunthey gets a promotion of. Sorts The shawnee never had
a central government of any, kind and certainly not a
fucking king or what gets called a principal, chief but
ever since about the seventeen sixties they had to pretend
(33:26):
to have one in order to negotiate with The. Americans
so in seventeen, Eighty malunthey is voted principal chief by
The shawnee. People and he's still married to, her and
they're still hanging out even though all this other. Stuff
and that's the part WHERE i start being, like there's
holes in this, story BUT i don't know exactly which
ones they.
Speaker 3 (33:45):
Are.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
Okay by seventeen eighty, five she still hasn't gotten the
land she's been, promised and so she writes THE us
and is, like, hey CAN i am my acres, Please
and what did they. Say they were, like, yeah we're
never going to do. That but what they do is
they tell. Her it gets written as she gets a
daily food ration and an annual allowance of clothes and
(34:07):
blankets for the rest of her. Life but the actual
writing of it is, like you have to go begging
at any fort you like and they'll give you food
once a.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
Day, wow that's they give her, That and that's the
reward for turning on your own. People and that's.
Speaker 3 (34:23):
Part of the.
Speaker 2 (34:23):
Reward it's gonna get, Worse. Okay to round out this,
tragedy in seventeen eighty, six THE us invades The shawnee
area and Non helena is there with her, Husband, malantha
who's the principal. Chief And malantha surrenders right off the.
Bat he is HOLDING i, believe An american flag and
a copy of the. Treaty when they show, up he's, like, hey,
(34:47):
buds we're, Buds american. Flag, yeah we're, good you, Know
and so he surrenders right off the bat and A
us soldier kills him right then and, there just fucking
kills him with a.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
Hatchet when she's there as, well and she.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
Tries to stop it and they cut off most of
their fingers in her. Hand oh my, god and she's,
LIKE i think seventy. Eight at this, point she herself
was arrested and imprisoned for being next to her. Husband
and while she's, imprisoned she gets talked into helping write
A shawnee dictionary for the commander, there and it gets
presented as, like, maybe oh this is maybe we're like
(35:24):
The Shawnee, dictionary you, know like, no this wasn't a
grand thing for. Science it was the people who ran
that place doing a colonialism and creating a neat. Artifact
it was sent off to A russian nobleman as a,
souvenir and Non, helena best AS i can, tell disappears
from the historical. Record she either dies in jail or
sometime shortly after she's. Released God and, okay So i'm
(35:46):
going to continue the. Story is a little bit to
close out The. MORAVIANS i think hearing this helps understand
THE i, mean you can also understand why people fought
The americans just, because, like, ah and they're the fucking
invaders in every movie we've ever.
Speaker 1 (35:59):
Seen why, Not, yeah there are there's not a case
where they're not the.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
Aggressors, yeah but to close out the story by bringing
back in our sort of, friends The moravian, folks and
they're once again mostly indigenous, people living In european style,
towns going to church and Wearing european. Clothes they stayed
neutral in the, revolution and they stayed more successfully neutral
Than Non helena had, been and both sides hated them for.
(36:25):
It at one, point all The, Moravians indian And german
alike were captured by The british and sent to a
town called Captive Town, nice which isn't a good name
for a.
Speaker 1 (36:40):
Town, no we need a second draft and that you,
know the ruling power is really wielding a lot of
power if they're not even making up a name for
what they're. Doing they're, like, no this Is, Prisonerville, yeah
this is.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
We call it this fuck you. Land.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
Yeah and you're, like, oh, OKAY i guess. That, yeah
you have. Power you're not even bothering to obscure it.
Speaker 2 (37:02):
Nice. Yeah and this is The british who are and
this is during The Revolutionary, war and The british are
like slightly nicer to indigenous, people, Right and unfortunately you're
going to see the difference The british sent them To
Captive town in seventeen eighty, one and it's rough In
Captive town come.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
Winter, KIDDING i, KNOW i.
Speaker 2 (37:19):
Want to do a. MUSICAL i shouldn't come. Winter they
don't have much food In Captive. Town so one hundred
and fifty of them are allowed to go home and
gather their winter stores and like pick their crops and.
Stuff about ninety of them go to their village called
A Naden, hutton which means Nat huts or Like nat.
Town OD i, know.
Speaker 1 (37:39):
From Captive town To nattown, nice that's.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
OKAY i used to The state Of land project Called,
zuckendorf which means tick village because there's a lot of ticks.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
THERE i used to live in a rat.
Speaker 3 (37:53):
City and so while they're at home in nad And,
hutton militiamen from A america show, up and The moravians are, like,
hello humans and feed them and give them.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
Hospitality the militia men disarmed the. Folks they were, pacifists
but they had like muskets and shit for, hunting and
then they accused them of Killing americans and they were like, no,
like we're literally The christian pacifist. Town, Y'ALL i haven't
heard of.
Speaker 1 (38:20):
Us we're welcoming the captives from Captive. Town we're the.
Pacifists we're a passifist. Town. Yeah, yeah the world should
be organized like. This it would be.
Speaker 3 (38:27):
Helpful.
Speaker 2 (38:28):
Yeah people were, like, OH i live over in that. Town, yeah. Totally.
Yeah and so they, decide The american, militiamen there's about
two hundred of, them decide they're just going to kill
all of, them and the men were taken to one
barn and women were sectually assaulted and then taken to another,
barn and they spent their night Singing christian. Hymns this
is part is. Dark and then the militia killed twenty eight,
(38:49):
men twenty nine, women and thirty nine children and scalped
them and burned the barns with their, bodies and at
least three children. Survived one had been hidden under the
floor boards with another kid and then crawled out through a,
hole but his friend that was with him had been
too big and couldn't get out the fucking hole and
died in the. Fire another kid survived being scalped and
(39:12):
crawled away to, safety and then at least one. Kid,
okay so the two hundred militiamen before they were, like,
oh we're going to kill. You they took a vote
democracy and action.
Speaker 1 (39:21):
Everyone, Wow, okay that's that's. Huge it's just like when
they tried the criminals by the people who were afraid
of the criminals and they were found. Innocent, yeah, exactly really,
good that's. Awesome.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
Okay eighteen of the militiamen voted against, it and for
years people thought those eighteen just like stood aside and
let it. Happen but it turns out several of them rescued.
Kids AND i don't know whether this cleans your soul or.
NOT i actually think if you're in the, situation you
have a moral obligation to go down fighting your own
friends before they massacre. People but, yeah, whatever, again.
Speaker 1 (39:53):
This is a. Story but what happens when you don't do? That, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:58):
Several of them rescued, kids at least one, kid probably,
more and hid them in the. Bushes and the one
kid that we know about was raised by the white
guy who had rescued, him and then as soon as
he was old, enough he went back to a Remaining
moravian settlement and reunited with his surviving. Family and you
know that the militia people robbed the shit out of
the people they. Killed they left with eighty pack horses
(40:18):
worth of. Loot and the massacre victims are Considered Moravian christian.
Martyrs and there's a nasty parallel with A i forgot
to put it into my script WHEN i did an
episode about The. Zapatistas there was A Christian pacifist indigenous
village in the LIKE i want to say eighties or
early nineties that was.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
Massacred wait the seventeen, eighties, no or thee, eighties, yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:44):
Whoa there was a church In chiapas in Southeastern mexico
where people trying to reestablish local control attached to the
right wing government went and were, like y'all are too
rowdy or, related too close to The. Zapatistas and even
though they're, like, well actually we don't support them because
they're armed and we're, pacifists and they're like you're, What,
(41:05):
oh we could just kill you and they just killed.
Speaker 3 (41:09):
Them.
Speaker 2 (41:09):
OH i hate how much this happens in, history is
that pacifists get.
Speaker 1 (41:12):
Massacred, yeah, yeah fuck, Fuck.
Speaker 2 (41:19):
And the massacre victims are Considered Moravian christian. Murdyers just.
Fitting and the Reason i'm including this is not just
As i'm, like here's a bad. THING i think it's
important to understand word of this massacre spread far and,
wide and As otter put, it my, friend who's one
of the main sources for, this if quote natives who
(41:41):
had done the right thing by fully Welcoming christianity and
Adopting eurocentric practices could be butchered and receive no. Justice
none of us, will. Okay and so that's the kind
of KEY i think a thing that changed in acts
attitudes around like how are we going to relate with The.
(42:02):
Americans one guy who did this massacre was a close
friend Of George. Washington his name Was William. Crawford everyone
in THE us government maintained, like, no our Guy crawford wasn't,
there because this was actually beyond the, Pale like Some
americans were, like, oh we should have done.
Speaker 1 (42:18):
That, WELL i love to hear what colonists views as
the line.
Speaker 2 (42:23):
Totally, okay, yeah not so far past the life that
they'll do anything about.
Speaker 1 (42:27):
It but you, know like, no but they're, like but
we'll just pretend he wasn't.
Speaker 2 (42:30):
There, yeah what's funny is that a little bit more,
recently historians have records of everyone who got paid to be,
there And William crawford is on that. List so whether
or not he was, there he was paid.
Speaker 1 (42:39):
To be there profited From. Okay.
Speaker 2 (42:42):
Yeah and the reason that people want to claim that
he wasn't there is because those, terrible, awful Barbarous indigenous.
PEOPLE a couple months, Later William crawford was off to
raid moral And nape folks and kill, them and a
whole coalition Of indigenous folks and a Few british allies
just fucked them all up and they Captured William. Crawford
The lenape put him on trial for the. Massacre he
(43:04):
was found guilty and they killed. Him but it's like
and he was burned, alive which is probably, true and fuck.
HIM i don't.
Speaker 1 (43:10):
Care but, yeah it's, like.
Speaker 2 (43:12):
What do you think make him?
Speaker 1 (43:15):
Do?
Speaker 2 (43:15):
Yeah, Yeah, yeah that's what they got for. You the
story of a woman stuck in an impossible, situation who
lived a fucking badass life and for so, long and who,
learned like so many people had to, learn that you
just shouldn't fucking trust colonial. Governments.
Speaker 1 (43:33):
Yeah it's a. TRAGEDY i, mean it's it's an oversimplification to.
Say it's like she lived long enough to become a
villain to her own people and then to still die
tragically in the way that she.
Speaker 2 (43:45):
Did and kind of like learned she learned the danger
of doing. That they came and they cut off her,
fingers killed her, husband and then she probably died in,
jail you, know and it's like she kind of learned her.
Lesson i'm not trying to be, like.
Speaker 1 (43:58):
Oh she got what YOU i, mean just like it's
hard because these histories exist but are obscured so frequently
it becomes hard to learn from history that is being
kept from. You.
Speaker 2 (44:10):
Yeah, yeah because there's still there's so many holes in
this story and there's like so much mythmaking done around
her That i'm, LIKE i don't, know you. Know and
also it's just like hero making is always. COMPLICATED i don't.
Know i'm, like when she's in her forties and fifties
leading like in a pretty fucking righteous war against the,
(44:30):
empire like she's pretty fucking. Cool. YEAH i want to
shout Out otter again for turning me onto the story
and providing the. Notes AND i want to tell everyone
that if you're into this kind of. History you should
check out their blog on, substack which is Called greetings
From Sundown ohio Or sundownohio dot substack dot com and
A Happy Thanksgiving. Day killjoy strikes. Again this is going
(45:01):
to be something that's going to be sitting in my
head and for Weeks i'm gonna be, LIKE i told
this story. Wrong BUT i don't know How i'll be
convinced of.
Speaker 1 (45:07):
That you're so amazing at your, job because it's like
you're given a you, know distinct also high, stakes also
difficult to research by design that not enough people are talking.
About LIKE i don't know how you do. IT i
don't know how you do. IT i didn't know about
most of this, histories BUT i thought you did a great.
Job oh, THANKS i think you're just.
Speaker 2 (45:28):
Amazing it's, hard you, Know and it's LIKE i, know
on some level every now and Then i'm, LIKE i
shouldn't really be using my podcast to like sit and
make my moral judgments on the. History and Then i'm, like,
WELL i want people to only accept What i'm saying
if they resonate with, it, right you, Know and Like
i'm still trying really hard TO i just try and
be upfront about my, biases but this one just has
(45:49):
me confused and sad and angry and, like you, know
just like it's just really sitting in that thought like
this changes a little bit about HOW i, think just
like sitting there trying to think through these people in
these impossible, situations and like IT'S.
Speaker 1 (46:10):
I, felt at least as you were sharing this history
that like you can feel that like here is like
this woman who's been putting this impossible situation and she's
just hoping this is the right. Thing, yeah it doesn't
seem like any of these choices are made to, personally you,
know enrich her self. Personally it's like we're taking a
(46:31):
gamble by trusting the least trustworthy people maybe on the
planet right, now to see if it will save. Us
and of course it. Doesn't but like.
Speaker 2 (46:42):
But neither would have fighting and right and she just
she can't look back from history and say, like, ah,
well of course this was the right, thing you, know exactly.
Speaker 1 (46:50):
Exactly it's just it's it's. Tragic thank you for telling
me about. Her at the end of the, DAY i
really hope she was six' six me tim be, Cold
COMFORT but i really wish that she was, Six, six.
Speaker 2 (47:03):
Yeah totally and everyone was just fucking terrified, of her,
and like there's this whole THING that i only kind
of hinted that where, it's like it's possible that the
reason that she stopped being a war chief to a
lot of people was Because the americans wouldn't fuck with
a woman who is, they like wouldn't coordinate with. A woman. You,
(47:24):
know anyway you got anything you want?
Speaker 1 (47:26):
To, Plug YEAH so i didn't think to plug this
for the, first episode but this week On The, bechdel
Cast Our Intersectional feminis, movie podcast we are re releasing
an episode with one of our, Dear Friends, jess merwin
On a canadian Indigenous movie Rhymes For, young gruls which
if you haven't, seen it you should check. It out
it is a story told from the perspective of a,
(47:49):
teenage girl takes place on A mick, mock reservation and
it is the revenge story that revolves around. Reservation schools oh.
Fuck him check out the movie and then check out.
The episode you want To hear jess as an incredible
guest and an, Incredible artist so check.
Speaker 2 (48:05):
It out. Fuck you THE thing i want to plug
is that anti colonial resistance is real, and ongoing and
the people that even are in, this story like the
peoples that we're, talking about, still here and, you know
five hundred years is a very, long time but it's
not an infinitely. Long time and it also isn't all
like People teach, american history even sometimes Leftist teach american
(48:26):
history like the fight is over and. It's not and,
so yeah but to, carry yourselves be good to, each
other and see y'all.
Speaker 1 (48:33):
Next Week Cool People Who Did cool stuff is a
production Of Fool. Zone media for more podcasts And Cool,
zone media visit Our website folezonemedia, dot com or check
us OUT On I, heard, Radio app I'm, a podcast
or wherever you get.
Speaker 2 (48:48):
Your podcasts
Host
Margaret Killjoy
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