February 5, 2025 • 61 mins
Margaret continues talking with Prop about how the people of Haiti destroyed a slave empire.
Sources:
https://www.newsweek.com/poland-nationalism-new-york-haiti-slave-rebellion-revolution-1382388
A Secret among the Blacks: Slave Resistance before the Haitian Revolution, John D. Garrigus
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VofAQYxcHHY
https://catholiceducation.org/en/faith-and-character/king-afonso-i-of-kongo12-06-17.html
https://ecda.northeastern.edu/makandal-knowledge/
http://piketty.pse.ens.fr/files/ideology/pdf/F6.2.pdf
https://ecda.northeastern.edu/makandal-knowledge/
https://www.afrikaiswoke.com/makandal-the-black-messiah/
https://blogs.loc.gov/law/2011/01/slavery-in-the-french-colonies/
https://haitidoi.com/2013/03/18/1804-census-gros-morne-haiti/
https://haitidoi.com/2016/01/26/dessalines-reader-1-april-1804-2/
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s41603-019-00071-5
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Also media, Hello and welcome to cool People who did
cool stuff. You're a weekly reminder that I have a
podcast that you've listened to more than once a week.
If you're listening to the second part, I'm your host,
Marta Kiljoy and my guest this week is prop Hi.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
How are you hey? Shout out why Cliff Jean. It's stupid.
I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
He's HAYESHI wait, you know he he didn't eve run
for president of Haiti. He did run for then he won,
like they wouldn't let him.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
Yeah, Mini, he's a great artist.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
Yeah, no, I like his music. I feel like I
don't know anything about him as a person, and maybe
there's something.
Speaker 4 (00:39):
No idea people being like, I don't know who he is.
He's mister Shakira Shakira.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Ja Cara shake Cara.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
Yeah you've heard him. It's funny because in my mind,
I'm like, how could you not hear?
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Why clife? Sewan is?
Speaker 1 (00:50):
I don't know who, like almost anyone is. I think
it's because I was a child of the nineties. I
think that's why I know who he is.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
I was gonna say, I was like, no, it's probably
a age like yeah, yeah, because the Fuji's and Lauren
Hill like that is so important and why Cliff is
so important to that moment.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Yeah, one time, he's.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Got greatest in two of the biggest songs on Earth.
He got an ad lib, you know, so like killing
me softly, He's like one time, two times.
Speaker 4 (01:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
Well, we are indeed talking about Haiti. Well, first we're
talking about the fact that our producer is Sophie Hi, Sophie,
how are you hey? And our audio engineer is Rory Hi.
Rory Hi?
Speaker 2 (01:29):
R I was Roy?
Speaker 5 (01:33):
Oh, Rory you sound different.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
I don't know. I've never met Rory.
Speaker 5 (01:40):
You're hilarious.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Our theme musical is written forced by Unwoman. And this
is part two of what's going to be a four
parter about the Haitian Revolution, which was on my short
list of things that no matter what I knew, I
had to cover at some point or like, well, there's
so much a lot of the stuff, and I still
haven't covered the stuff that I haven't covered because I'm like,
there's so much to it, you know, And we're not
(02:07):
even no one who listens to the show regular is
gonna be shocked. We're not even going to get to
the Haitian Revolution today.
Speaker 5 (02:14):
Multiple episodes in contexts you no.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Way, but this one's full of stories and poison.
Speaker 5 (02:22):
I thoroughly. I thoroughly.
Speaker 4 (02:23):
So we were doing a script read of one of
a series Jamie was working on, and she was like,
and then I realized I needed to do a second part,
and I was like, oh, really really, And it's the
same with you, really, yeah, both of you.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
Because the thing that happens, like one of the things
that I do when I start doing a researching a
topic is I like go and listen to the other
people who've covered it and stuff. To be fair, I
have actually a long time ago I listened to the
Revolutions podcast by Duncan, I think about Haitian revolution, but
I didn't re listen to it for this episode. But
when you go and you just like read the the
(03:01):
pop articles and stuff, you know, like they don't do
it for me. They're missing something. There's nothing wrong with them.
Well sometimes they're literally wrong, but it's flat. Yeah, And
part of it is that it's like, I don't know.
There's a lot of stuff I don't know about the world,
and I like so I like, yeah, I like being
(03:22):
able to come in and be like, hey, look, there's
an island. It's over here. You know, if you're not
from there, you're not born knowing what it is, you know.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
Yeah, I'm also like, my my problem is always like
where do you start? Where do you start the story?
Like like context has context. Whatever starting point you started
had background. Yeah, so you're like, okay, well well let
me tell you about the background. But that background has background.
So I'm always like, where do.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
You I don't know where to start? How do I
bring you in?
Speaker 1 (03:54):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (03:55):
I think it's Karl Segum.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
I could be wrong. Was like, if you want to
if you want to teach someone to make an apple
pieform scrap, you have to create the universe.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
That is an amazing take.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
I remember at one point I got really obsessively into
DIY For a while. I had this cabin that I
had like built in and lived in, and then I
started being like I want to make all my own stuff.
And then I was like, I can't realistically make my
own shoes. I mean, I know people who've made shoes,
but like, realistically it's not going to happen. And then
I was like I can build a computer, but I
can't make a computer. And it's started like bugging me
(04:27):
that I couldn't make everything, and then I eventually now
I don't have to make my own clothes again. Now
I can just go ahead and get close.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:35):
Yeah, there's the bell curve of like like the bell
curve of unplugging, Like at some point you're like.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Well, can I just plug that one?
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (04:44):
Supplements very funny.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
And then with history it's you get the same thing
where you're like, Okay, well I can't I can't do
all of the context ever. Yeah, but I can do
a lot of it, and I enjoy it. So and
send among Vodu was practiced by enslaved people and also
importantly by self emancipated people, by the Maroons. There are
(05:08):
a lot of different arguments about how many what percentage
of people were Maroons at any given point in Haiti's history,
and as we pointed out, all of the records were destroyed,
so we kind of don't really know. But like, the
best estimate I've seen was that about one percent of
the enslaved population was Maroon at any given point, which
would put it at around like five thousand people or so.
(05:30):
But I've also read things that are like twenty thousand
and more, and I don't know. There were also free
people of color on the island who are generally mixed
African and French folks who are called a word that
I don't want to say on air. I just literally
don't know whether I don't.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Know, don't do it.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
Yeah, but it wasn't like cut and dry. Oh, there's
this religion with a distinct name in culture and beliefs
being practiced during as time we talked about history is
really messy. Wording to almost every version of I could
find of the Haitian Revolution, there was this one major
precursor to the Haitian Revolution. I was like, not a
lot of uprisings, and then suddenly this big conspiracy plot
(06:12):
that was a rebellion against colonial power. And that's what
I expected. I was going to tell you today, and
I'm still going to tell you, but I'm going to
tell you. I'm going to tell you two versions of it.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
Uh huh.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
I compared a ton of sources. I wrote it all
up and everything two hours before recording time. I referenced
one more source, a more recent book from twenty twenty
three put out by Harvard Press. I devoured the introduction
in the chapter on the guy that I'm going to
talk about right before recording. The book is called A
Secret among the Blacks Slave Resistance before the Haitian Revolution
(06:45):
by John D. Garagis. Okay, so here are two stories
about a guy named Francois Macandal. You ever heard of
Francois Macandal.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
Like I said, like, I know, just disparate names here
and there, but I can't tell you no facts about him.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
Yeah, I understand. He is entirely mythologized. It's hard to
figure out exactly what's real. And there's this guy, his
original name, his birthplace, all of that is forgotten because
of you know, slavery.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
At first people said he was from the Guinea Coast,
the southern coast of West Africa as it was called
at the time. Later people said he was probably from
the coast of what's now the Republic of Congo. Then
after that people were like, actually, the fact that there's
no vowel at the end of his last name means
he was actually probably from the interior of Congo. But
he is from one of the places. So what they
(07:35):
what that means is he's from one of the places
that everyone in eighty was from.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
Yeah, got it, thanks, yea.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
Yeah, he might have been named after a village or
tribe called Macandahal. He might have been named after Makanda,
meaning a totem or a fetish, or people named his
fetishes Maconda after him. That actually seems like the most likely.
In the pop version of his history, he's royalty. Like
(08:02):
in Africa, he was royalty, and a lot of figures
throughout history, once they're important, people will be like, oh,
they were secretly royalty. Either they were like secretly royalty
in Africa in like a colonized area, or they like
the one white person in their lineage was a princess
or whatever you know. But Makeundal might have actually been royalty.
(08:24):
That seems fairly. It is certainly possible. It might even
be the most likely thing, if nothing else. He was educated.
He knew how to read and write, He spoke Arabic,
and most accounts said he was very, very skilled as
an herbalist. He was also probably Muslim. He knew how
to heal, and he knew how to poison. When he
(08:47):
was twelve, he was captured and trafficked to Sandumung, probably
in the seventeen twenties or the seventeen thirties. He was
called the old man of the Mountain later thirty years later,
but you know, considering most people only lasted a year.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Yeah, he was sold to a.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
Man named Lena mon de Masi. And if I pronounced
your name wrong, you shouldn't have.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
Enslaved people exactly.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
He was set to work on an indigo plantation in
a fairly remote rural area, one that soon turned into
a sugar plantation. Most accounts from long after his death
said that he lost a hand or an arm while
processing sugar, and it gets called a I love the
euphemisms of history. A workplace accident.
Speaker 3 (09:31):
Like this story is starting to like come back of
like the dude one hand Yeah, okay.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
Yeah yeah, like a workplaces?
Speaker 1 (09:40):
Yeah, it's like is it a workplace? Is it an accident? Like?
Neither of those feel like appropriate work.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
I don't think this is a workplace.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
Yeah, he's in the Saw movies and he loses an
arm while he's in the Saw movies. Yes, sugar plantation
work required a bunch of cattle. I guess I. I'm
not an expert on having a sugar plantation. And you
need someone to hang out and keep people away. From
stealing the cattle. And so he's got one arm, and
(10:09):
so they're like all right, or one hand, or maybe
he has both hands. We only have one attestation that
he lost a hand, but either way, he gets a
job guarding cattle. And look, as far as having been
enslaved in the saw factory, this is the job you want.
It is a remote job with almost no supervision. There's
like his boss's owner or whatever. It's like nowhere around.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
And so for a few years, from eighteen forty four
to eighteen forty eight, he hangs out in this hut,
either alone or with another enslaved person, and watches after
the cattle. And meanwhile he builds a reputation as a
healer of animals of enslaved people, and probably white people
were coming to him too. There's a lot of like
the French people were like so fucked because I mean,
(10:53):
they're clearly in a better position, but they're like so fucked, right,
because all of the skilled healers are like herbalists from Africa.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
Yeah, yeah, they're all in the bush yep.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
Yeah, And so you'd like you'd be like, oh, my
kid's sick. I can't take them a little white doctor,
they'll put leeches on them. I don't know if they
put leeches on them or not, but you know, like
the African doctors were doing a lot better work.
Speaker 3 (11:13):
Yeah, they're like they're using plants, like how the rest
of human society has for a long time.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:21):
Also, I still always go back to whenever whenever we
talk about old medicines, this is when I'm like, yeah,
I only want to have been born now. Yeah, totally,
there's no other era i'd want to live in. Yeah, yeah,
you gottah, you gotta cut on your arm. Let's just
saw that shit off. How about a here's some whiskey.
(11:44):
I'm gonna cut your arm off.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
Yeah, and you got a fifty percent chance of surviving
after we do it.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
Hey, you might not make it.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
Yeah, no, I want to be born after antibiotics.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
But like that's yeah, yeah, Like let me just listen.
Speaker 3 (11:58):
Nah, fam you telling me. You're telling me I got
a little sickness. You won't go to the river and
pull out a water roach, you know, and put it
on my cut?
Speaker 2 (12:08):
Like yeah, I'm good. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
God, even imagine being like the people trying to figure
out what works because you're like, well, I guess we
just caught off a bunch of people's arms and see
what happens.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
I don't know, man, it seems like if you just
didn't have that arm where that thing is, it wouldn't
be a product the rest of your body.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
Yeah, and it is better than dying of the infection.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
True. Yeah, I don't want to live at no other time, no, anyway.
Speaker 3 (12:34):
No.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
And so he's living in this hut and then at
some point insides to run away. The two versions of
the story. One version of the story, though like, is
that he walks away. He's like, no one's watching me,
I'm done, and he leaves. The more common version of
the story, I don't know if it's true or not,
is that he had a falling out with the guy
who had enslaved him. Well rather not the original. That
(12:58):
guy dies and then is like wife inherits him and
then marries a new guy and whatever. Yeah, the guy
who owned him was raping this enslaved woman, but he
and that woman were in love. One night he was
caught sleeping with her, and so the slaver ordered him
to be lashed fifty times. This was, as you're kind
(13:18):
of talking about, This is more or less a death sentence. Yeah,
if you are in sandamong and you are lashed fifty times,
you're probably gonna die.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
You're gonna die.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Yeah, And so he's like, well, I don't want to die,
so he leaves or he just left anyway because no
one was watching him.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
I heard that story, like he was just what nobody
there as he just left. Yeah, that's the story I heard.
But who knows.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
No, No, I mean I actually think that both stories work.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
Both stories.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
It is completely possible, but the less spectacular one is
like always going to be slightly more likely in my head,
you know.
Speaker 4 (13:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
Yeah, and especially because it wasn't like and then he
went back and killed whatever, no shade on him, no
matter what he chose. However, he ended up self emancipating. Yeah,
so he walks into the mountains in eighteen forty eight
and he lived there for ten years. And both versions
of the story, besides exactly why he left, they they
agree at this point. Both the like, this isn't where
(14:12):
I had to like rewrite everything. Okay, here's where they
start to fork off. He converts from Islam to Vodu
or I guess you don't really have to give up
Islam to practice vodu, and who knows, he becomes a
leader of the Maroons because he is a man with
an idea. It's a very simple idea when it comes
down to it. It's a simple idea. It's complicated in
(14:33):
its execution, but the idea is this, White people can't
enslave you when they're dead. I'm very sympathetic to this position.
Speaker 3 (14:44):
Hear me out, guys. Yeah, okay, I'm spinballing here. Yeah,
what if they're dead?
Speaker 1 (14:50):
Yeah, yeah, just it's a very elegant solution. Yeah, and
if you don't want to be dead, don't enslave people.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
I feel like they kind of like you kind of
put us in a precarious position here. I feel like
this seems to be that you don't listen to reason. Obviously,
or we wouldn't be here in the first place. So
I feel like, yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
One of your own friars who showed up right away,
was like, this is a bad idea, and you didn't
listen to him.
Speaker 3 (15:14):
That's what your passed to said. You'll pass to say it,
y'all sent it? Yeah, okay.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
And as for how to get these slavers to go
from living slavers to dead bodies. He fell back on
what he knew best plants. He was a brilliant poisoner.
His idea united people across ethnic and linguistic lines. I've
read that he had three thousand Maroons working with him.
I've read that he had twenty thousand maroons working with him.
(15:42):
He built up a network across Sandomong to help people
escape into the hills, with agents in every major city.
He worked with free black people, with the pocketeers who
went from plantation to plantation to pedal wares to enslave
black people. And this part is actually particularly astounding because
getting free black people to be part of a slave
(16:03):
vault at this time was particularly hard because there was
a kind of a three way tension happening between the French,
the free black people, many of whom were middle class,
and the enslaved black people. And so good on him
if that is, and good on the you know, middle
class people for thrown down.
Speaker 3 (16:19):
Yeah, because once you're out, you're like, well, I'm not
trying to like like you're supposed to stay under a radar, like, oh,
I don't want no problems, Like I'm out. We made it,
just you know, good luck to you.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
But Yeah, slip you a little bit of money if
you need to get Yeah, yeah, here you go.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
Yeah yeah, get out of your kid. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
These groups led raids on plantations to free people and
steal shit. And several times, the story goes he was
captured and each time he escaped, he recruited people, and
then he and his agents started poisoning people. About six
thousand people were poisoned to death during this. If you
read a simplistic retelling of events, he poisoned white people.
(16:59):
That's the nice way to tell the story, right, Yeah,
if you read the stuff that's more willing to engage
in the ethically complicated nature of revolt. He poisoned white people,
and he poisoned black people who didn't agree with him
about his plans for revolution. Yeah, and he also poisoned
livestock and crops because those animals and crops were capital
assets of the colonial economy.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:19):
The part that was brought forth to me, like when
they it was always a comparison contrast between like him
and Harriet. Tell me that's the way I remember real
being taught to me. Oh interesting, Yeah, in his like
I got out, but I'm not just gonna leave y'all.
You know what I'm saying, Like we're going to figure
out how to get everybody out. But the difference between yeah,
(17:42):
when he's male, it was female, like you know, working
with cloaks, but just him being like if you ain't
forced you against us, Yeah, and his understanding, whether he
knew it or not, of capitalism of like you have
to like you have to not only do you have to,
you have to cut off their reason for even having slaves,
(18:02):
you know, and that understanding of that sort of solidarity
of like non poisono cattle and the idea that like
I've always said that, like privilege makes you brittle, but
it also makes you aloof in the sense that you're
not paying attention to what we're putting in these drinks.
You're not paying attention to that, you know how we're
making you salad. You're not paying attention to this. You
(18:23):
know what I'm saying, Like you don't know what we
feed you, you know, So that as a act of
resistance was like I said, that's when you said Francoise
was like I knew the name and like it was
starting to come together, But that was the thing to
where it's like you have to you have.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
To cut off the money.
Speaker 3 (18:40):
And that's what what we understood him as, whereas Harriet
Tubman was like, well let's get free, right, he was like,
you got to stop the money because they just gonna
bring somebody else.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
Yeah, you know yeah yeah, and also just like and
we're just gonna literally kill them until they go away,
you know, like we're gonna.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
Just like you don't have to be here. No.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
As a that is a really interesting comparison to to
him because I got you know, I mean, Harry Tubmans
like one of the most singular heroes in all of history,
you know. But like you look at this and I'm like, well,
it's not a bad plan.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
Yeah, I mean, like you know what I'm saying, it'd
be like and you know, and it's like and Haiti
not like Haiti was aware of America, you know what
I'm saying. But like at the time or now looking
at it now, I'm like, it's hey, he's a lot smaller.
Yeah then you know, the Confederate South, so it's smaller.
So there's like you could probably pull it off. Like
there's not that many of y'all, you.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
Know, saying there's only about I had trouble finding the
exact population of white versus black and exactly this year.
But by looking at charts and conjecturing there's about half
a million enslave people and there's about forty thousand white people.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
It's not that many.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
Yeah, yeah, So if he killed six thousand of them,
that is fifteen percent of the white people. Big, well,
on your way, you know.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
Some say that this poisoning spree lasted six years. Some
say that lasted eighteen years. Some say that it was
more than six thousand people. Some people say his goal
was to spark a race war and or just literally
kill all the white people on the island. It could
have worked. He was working on his most ambitious project.
Yet when he was caught what his most ambitious project
(20:20):
was speaking of fucking with the money is pivoting to ad.
See he started podcasting.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
Yeah, that was good. That was good.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
You have me, Thank you, thank you. That's a that's
my main job. Here. Here's a bunch of ads and
we're back. So he's working on this ambitious project. He
is going to poison the water supply of cap friend Swis,
(20:49):
the capital of the colony. In seventeen seventy, the Capital
is going to move to Porta Prince, but that was
already more populous cap front, sois was like the second
most populous city trying to kill a ton of people
in the Capitol. In terms of the ethics of this
particular action, Look, he is not walking away without blood
on his hands. Two thirds or so of the population
the city was enslaved. But you know, he also told
(21:14):
people that he had magic powers. He told people that
he was immortal. He said that if he were to
be killed, he would not die, but instead he would
return as a mosquito to keep killing slavers.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
Love it, Yeah, love it.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
He goes to a local dance at a plantation. There's
like a party once a year. Basically you get your
holiday party and he's ratted out and captured at the party.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
I just had this totally separate I just had this
image of just like, yeah, your work, your office into
the year Christmas party.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Yeah, slaves though.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
Yeah, and only half of you are still alive from
the start of the year.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
Yeah yeah. Looking at that party, that party would be
either morose.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Or wild or both. Dude, And I mean, can we
kind of actually know a little bit about how those
parties went because that's where vodoo comes from. Yes, like
let's do ecstatic stuff while we're like trying not to die.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
So he's captured, he breaks out of his cell, he's recaptured.
He is sentenced to death by being burned at the stake.
On January twentieth, eighteen fifty eight. He is burned at
the stake. First he slips his bonds, even though he's
like missing a hand. He has to be retied, and
then he's burned in order to make an example out
of him. Enslave people were brought to witness his death,
(22:35):
but they said he did not die. We saw him.
He turned into a mosquito and he flew away. He
promised he would return and free all of us. And
mosquitoes did a lot of the killing killing in the
Haitian Revolution. Yes, yes, mosquito born illnesses were essential to
(22:55):
military victory of the Haitian people against the European powers.
And as those soldiers died, people would say, see Macon
Dallas still doing his work.
Speaker 3 (23:04):
Good old sickle cell anemia. Yeah, yeah, I came to
save us all. You know what I'm talking about.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
No, I don't remember, because I didn't because I haven't
gone to the part where I remember it was like
yellow fever or something killed a lot.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
Yeah, not like so malaria.
Speaker 3 (23:22):
Like even this helped, even with like Rome trying to
conquer Africa was because Africans.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Developed a recessive sickle cell trade.
Speaker 3 (23:31):
Now if you get two dominant ones, how you get
sickle cell anemia. If you have one dominant and one recessive,
which most West Africans have, then we become in some
ways we have a defense against malaria. Right, so from
a lot of the mosquito born problems, but that shit
was wiping out the colonize and it's like, it's because
(23:52):
we have sickle cell like white blood cells, you know.
And it's like so it's it's been There's even an
island off the coast of South Carolina that ended up
like all of the white people had to leave because
there was too many mosquitoes. But it was killing in
but it wasn't killing us. And it's because we're from
West Africa and we have sickle cell traits, so I
(24:13):
don't kill it.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
So that's why I was like good old sickle seal.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
That's probably a huge reason why they had to wait
to invent the machine gun. In order to take most
of Africa.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
Yeah. Yeah, the mosquitos was killing him.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
Yeah yeah, we weren't getting the yellow fever, like we
just wouldn't given it, and it was.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
Yeah, and the people who are gonna get sick and
died already gotten sick and died, you know, whereas all
the soldiers had just shown up and were just like
completely destroyed.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
And charms and omulets and poisons would be called macanda still,
and a practitioner who makes these might get called them Macandal.
It's possible that the etymology goes the other way, that
he got the name macandal not because of where he
was from or like whatever, but because of what he did.
They might have called him that as sort of a
word for like witch or you know, yeah, practitioner. But
(25:02):
that's okay. So this is that's the story I was
prepared to tell you.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
Uh huh.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
I've read it. I've read a dozen ways, and is
a wonderful story, and I sort of secretly hope it's
true what I'm guessing happened based on this book. And like,
maybe this random book from twenty twenty three isn't true, right,
I don't know this story that it presents about what
happened with Makendahal maps so clearly to what we've talked
about over and over on the show about hysteria around
(25:29):
magic and witchcraft. It parallels the story of Elizabeth Battori
was the you heard about the like usually people call
her Bathory and she like bathed in the blood of
virgins to stay forever young. She was one of the
first people we sort of accidentally covered on the show.
She almost certainly was just like a healer woman who
was like a rich aristocratic lady who lived alone and
(25:52):
taught girls how to become healers. But she owed the
king owed her money, so the king went after her
and like wow, had like an inquisition against her and
locked her up in her own castle and accused her
of killing virgins or whatever. You know, I.
Speaker 3 (26:05):
Swear like us Listen, Yeah, I'm glad, Margaret. I'm glad
you got out when you could. Because men are just
like I just like sometimes I'd just be like, oh this,
oh that woman's smart witch.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:22):
Oh they don't like they don't like, they really just don't.
Sometimes they just like being alone among themselves and they
don't have to worry about nobody sexualizing their bodies or.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
Like yeah, bro, like what like she can read witch?
Speaker 4 (26:39):
Yeah, just to say nothing wrong with which was nothing
wrong with horrors?
Speaker 1 (26:43):
Nope, we support, we stand, and but people are saying
it in a real not nice way.
Speaker 4 (26:47):
Yeah, yes, listen, yes, yeah, you know what's great?
Speaker 5 (26:52):
Do you know what's great though?
Speaker 2 (26:53):
What?
Speaker 1 (26:53):
Oh?
Speaker 5 (26:53):
Witchy horror?
Speaker 2 (26:54):
Oh yeah and witchy horror?
Speaker 4 (26:56):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (26:57):
Whoa some of my best friends, some of your best friends?
Was the music?
Speaker 4 (27:02):
Some of my friends just the witchiest soares you've ever met?
Speaker 1 (27:08):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (27:08):
Man, oh, this girl knows how it like knows that
this flower when you mix it with this when it
makes a good.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
Tea, which yea better burn her? Yeah, and it And
it also happens to people who marginalize in other ways.
It happens to people who racialize. The whole history of
the way that people talk about voodoo and voodoo is
this right? It's like, what you have a religion where
you sacrifice an animal? It's clearly the devil.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
You're like, yeah, what, okay, what are you talking about?
Sacrificial lamb? Got it?
Speaker 1 (27:39):
Yeah, yeah, totally.
Speaker 2 (27:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
It's good when we drink blood. It's bad when you
and I would say ours is uh is not literal,
but Catholics literally believe it's literal.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
So yeah, yeah, transubstantiation, transistantiation. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
So the short version what this book presents the idea
of is he he never poisoned anyone. Really, he was
a He was a kind of wacky cult leader who
was framed up and executed during a like a panic,
a witch panic.
Speaker 3 (28:13):
More or less, I wish I wish listeners could see
my face repressing right now. I'm like what yeah, oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
And and so it's like and I feel hesitant saying
it because this is a like he's an important cultural figure.
Speaker 3 (28:27):
He's a big deal. Like a lot of people are
named Francois because of him.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
Yeah, Like yeah, like what I'm gonna quote Seal R.
James about him soon, you know, like like he's an
important fucking figure.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
But the whole like kill all the white people is
the thing I currently believe. I could, I could, I
could be proven wrong. I would support this man either way.
It was probably white people freaking out. It was probably
a like a panic on some.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
Nat Turner type panic. Yeah. Yeah, I never thought of
it like that. Dang.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
And so you know, there's this whole thing, where like
oppressors are always convinced that the people that they oppress
are just waiting to turn the tables and do the
exact opposite. Yeah, right, like Israeli citizens who are like, oh,
we can't free Palestine because then they'll kill us all
because we treated them so badly for so long. Yeah,
Or white people in the US who are like, who
(29:20):
believe that the majority of black people want to kill
all the white people instead of end white power? Right?
Speaker 2 (29:25):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (29:26):
And I actually think if he had wanted to kill
all the white people on the island, I think there's
an understandable impulse and might have been strategically sound like, yeah,
you get into the blurry like it's probably never good
to kill children, you know, Like I mean you brought
up that Turner earlier, right, Like you know that Turner,
as far as I understand his raids, absolutely killed like
(29:46):
you know, non combatant white people or whatever.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
H Yeah, you just gonna grow up and become a slaver.
So yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
But like if you're in the Saw movie and you
have a chance to try and stop the next one,
I am not at you, Like, yeah, in the abstract, no,
don't kill innocent people, you know, Yeah, but like I'm
not mad at that turner, and I am not mad
at the version that I thought this man was.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
Yeah, I don't know. That's wow, that is it makes
so much sense, the idea that like, well, yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:22):
It was a it was a panic, yeah, and yeah
he was and he was you know, he probably inspired
some people. You know, maybe some people got poisoned because again,
like we make your food, yeah, do you know, so
like yeah, like I don't, I mean, we good, you know.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
And it's one of the things that I like almost
like literally keeps me up a night because I'm a
little bit obsessive about my job is the fact that
like you start off with the version of the story
like take patre Oh she bathed in virgin blood to
stay young forever, and you're like, no, she probably didn't, right, Yeah,
she's probably like a healer, right, but but what if
she did, Now that would actually not be an ethical
(31:01):
thing to do, but liketal, it's not boring, is an
interesting thing, and then like all kinds of shit like
in that story. One of the reasons she ended up
the way she did theoretically, but again, she probably didn't
turn out the way people say she did uh huh.
She watched her dad, who was like the count or
whatever the fuck, execute someone by cutting open a cow
(31:23):
and then swing the person alive into the stomach of
the cow. What And that is not contested. The way
that Europeans killed people. It seemed like every time they
executed them, they had to come up with the most
widely coyote way of doing it.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
Yeah, like they just got bored. Ye just think of
some mills.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
And so then I read about like there's this whole
thing where Italian women were poisoning their husbands because before
Republicans want to get rid of no fault divorce, the
thing that women had before no fault divorce was we
make your food and we're going to poison you. And
that's real as best as I can tell. And it
seems real that there was this quote unquote magical underground
(32:03):
in a lot of Western European cities, like in the
early modern era, like medieval era or whatever, where you
go and you can talk to someone who will provide
abortion for you, who will read your fortune, who will
do this. It's called a service. Magic is the way
an anthropologist everyone talks about it.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
Yeah, we're just.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
Going to come back into this story in a little bit.
And maybe those people killed kids. I don't know they
were accused of it. Yeah, they probably didn't. But yeah,
we've lived in this world long enough to see crazy shit,
Yeah happen in the news. So like like the Satanic
panic of the eighties, those kids weren't out there of
(32:42):
sacrificing kids to worship the devil, but someone probably did
at some point, right.
Speaker 3 (32:47):
Like Mighty was being funny and just enjoy themselves and yeah,
you're right, that is true, dude.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
Yeah, it's and so so yeah, this poison plot almost
certainly just describing hysteria. But as you pointed out, probably
a bunch of these people got poisoned.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
Idea.
Speaker 1 (33:06):
Yeah maybe not by Mackndall, but like they certainly deserved
to be.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
It's easier, Yeah, it's easier.
Speaker 3 (33:12):
It's needed to wrap this thing that you don't understand.
Just wrap it up with a nice little bow with
a person. This, dude, is where it came from.
Speaker 2 (33:21):
Totally. It just easier to wrap your brain around that totally. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
No, that's such a good way to put it, because like, okay,
and so the idea that he was going to kill
all the white people. Whatever is probably propaganda. And the
argument that is made about this, we know that there
is propaganda that says this. The year he was killed
seventeen fifty eight, there were already anti black pamphlets circulating
around France about how he had been leading an army
set on killing all the white people. By seventeen eighty seven,
(33:48):
there was a new version going around that he was
just a crazy man. He was a gifted healer who
had been driven mad by the evils of slavery. And
after the Haitian Revolution, this was the version of the
story that's spread. Cel R. James one of the more
important black theorists and historians. Yeah, he wrote a book
called The Black Jacobins about the Haitian Revolution in nineteen
(34:09):
thirty eight, and in it he wrote, quote, an uninstructed
mass feeling its way to revolution usually begins by terrorism,
and Mackndahl aimed at delivering his people by means of poison. Yeah,
and so it's like it is a justifiable thing to believe.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (34:28):
Yeah, there's no like, dude, even listening to your past
episodes just about various things that different anarchist revolutions and
stuff like that, that happened in Europe, like I think out
of just trauma, pain and protest, I like refuse to
learn about a lot of Europe, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, yeah,
fair so much more. Yeah, Earth is much larger than this, guys.
(34:52):
You know. So but that being said, you miss out
on a lot of like pretty dope shit that was
going on up there. You know, you sometimes get to
this place to where you're like, damn, like I can't,
we can't, we can't know what happened, you know. So
then I start thinking about now and I'm like, well,
(35:13):
how many how many things can I not really explain
to y'all? Like how am I going to explain like
Sophie appreciate this? How am I going to explain Kendrick
and Drake to y'all to a hundred years from now?
How am I going to say? Like I like, it's
I'm listening, you know, with the Bastard's thing on Oprah,
(35:34):
Like I can't understate how big Oprah is, you know,
And or was like to be like mister beast like.
Speaker 2 (35:42):
Is that like how do I how do.
Speaker 3 (35:45):
I make you understand? You know what I'm saying? Like
That's what I was trying to say with Drake with
a lot of your young lings. I was like, listen,
I can't understate how big of a star jaw Rule was,
Like when I tell you Jah Rule was Drake like,
and he's a joke now because of fifty cent And
(36:07):
I don't know how Like I know that doesn't make
sense to you, but you just like I, I can't.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
Draw this straight line for you.
Speaker 3 (36:16):
So I think about now how frustrated I would be
to be like when Kendrick said he's not like us,
like all of what that means?
Speaker 2 (36:26):
Who is us? What do we mean by that?
Speaker 3 (36:27):
Like this was a this is a like I'm I'm
I'm trying to make a parallel here, but like, this
is a moment. It's a moment in pop culture, subculture
and hip hop culture. This is a like I'm not
being corny, this is a water that was a watershed moment.
Ye like that I think changed the music industry and
changed hip hop forever. Like I truly believe that moment
(36:49):
what Kendrick did right now, But how do you how
do we do it? How do we do a cool
people episode on Kendrick? Like I don't know how to
explain what this and how this moment came because because
this happened, well, then I have to talk about Mustard
sending in five beats a day for three months, you
know what I mean? And that's why we're going star
you know what I'm saying, like, I don't I don't
(37:10):
know how to I don't know what's myth.
Speaker 4 (37:12):
Just send that video up and playing. They're not like
us like seventeen times.
Speaker 5 (37:17):
At the forum.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
It's so amazing.
Speaker 4 (37:20):
So and then just like seeing everybody's faces in the crowd,
it's like that's it.
Speaker 2 (37:25):
But how do you put it back? Yeah?
Speaker 5 (37:27):
But how do you put that into words? Is the question?
Speaker 2 (37:29):
How do I put it into words?
Speaker 3 (37:31):
Yeah? And then so then what do you do? You
you know, you film a biopic and you say, oh, yeah,
you know, Kendrick.
Speaker 1 (37:37):
I simplify it.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
You simplify it.
Speaker 3 (37:40):
But it's like it's frustrating because like it was so
much more beautiful than that. Yeah, you know, so whatever
happened with francois that Like I'm really my mind blown
by being because what you're saying is so possible that
it's like probably wasn't even probably wasn't even that serious,
Like you know.
Speaker 1 (37:57):
Yeah, no, and and and so much is built up
around this concept that you almost get into this like
at a certain point it almost becomes true, you know,
it almost like yeah, it's so messy and I don't know. Yeah,
the the unknowableness of so much of this. Yeah, it's
the thing that keeps me up at night is that
(38:17):
I'm like, I will read all of these different sources
and all of them are flawed. But that's like, oh lord,
the concept of exploring mysteries you can't understand is like
central of the Catholic faith. And yeah, like the idea
that you can never know God, right, you just can
kind of peace out around it. That's like how I
feel like trying to read this history shit is that
(38:38):
I'm like, yeah, well I have all of these impressions,
and somewhere in the impression is the blurry truth, you know.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (38:45):
And it's supposed to be like bouncing off the mysticism
of the of the Christian faith. Unfortunately, evangelicalism tried to
turn it into a rubric and here's your points. But
that's supposed to be beautiful, yeah, supposed to be inspiring
that you that this is above us. It's this this
transcendent thing that all of us are attracted to, and
(39:08):
we can't wrap our minds around it or wrap our
hands around it. And that's what makes it divine. And
you're supposed that's supposed to inspire you. Yeah, you rather
than getting your arms around it, building a fence and
saying I understand who God is and you don't, you
know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (39:23):
So yeah, So like.
Speaker 3 (39:24):
I however, well we talk about hit, I'm frustrated. Yeah,
but with history, I'm like, no, but like what happened though,
I know.
Speaker 1 (39:30):
I know, you know exactly. No, Yeah, yeah, Like, well
what John de Garrigus claims happened. Quote He was a
diviner in the Congo tradition who formed spiritual communities for
healing and self defense, and doing so, he established one
of the multiple cultures of resistance that emerged in the
decades before the Haitian Revolution. Other enslaved people took vengeance
(39:53):
against their enslavers or appealed to colonial courts to protect
them from torture and abuse. Still, others planned and participated
labor stoppages and strikes against plantation policies and leadership. Enslave
people were thinking strategically about their lives as they imagined
and worked for a future in which French colonists would
no longer dominate sand among And so he's saying, like, look,
(40:16):
he did something interesting. He created these like communities for
self defense and healing and other people who weren't just
led by him. He didn't have like an army everywhere,
you know, Yeah, got all this shit done? And what
what the he claims actually happened. What these communities for
healing and self defense are was that they all got
(40:37):
together and did its sports ad gambling stuff.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
Did it to me a kid?
Speaker 1 (40:43):
Thank you? Thank you.
Speaker 3 (40:45):
I honestly think if we ever do a Cool Zone Awards,
like Margaret a girl, you.
Speaker 4 (40:51):
Use the judge for the Coal Zone Awards because it's me.
I'm like, you get a trophy, you get a trophy,
you get you get.
Speaker 5 (40:57):
A trophy, everybody gets a trophy.
Speaker 2 (41:00):
Yeah, you can't be the judge.
Speaker 3 (41:02):
I'd like then no one else is ever like like
actually tricks me.
Speaker 2 (41:06):
I'm like, wait, what happens next?
Speaker 1 (41:10):
What it takes a deep cynesis because with Robert he
changes his voice.
Speaker 2 (41:15):
Yeah, the pitch is different, you're.
Speaker 5 (41:17):
Fully stay in tone.
Speaker 2 (41:20):
Yeah, it's pretty good, thanks.
Speaker 5 (41:21):
Whereas Robert's like and you know who.
Speaker 2 (41:24):
Yeah, you're like, oh, commercial.
Speaker 5 (41:26):
Coming, and you're like, yeah, are we fucking five billion?
Speaker 1 (41:33):
And here's some of them unless you have cooler zone media,
in which case here's none of them and we're back.
So in terms of what happened, Okay, you ever had
a roommate or you like live with people who aren't
(41:55):
your roommates and something goes missing and you're like, damn
you roommate, you probably stole my thing like that. Oh absolutely, yeah, sibling.
Speaker 2 (42:06):
Yeah, listen, living with another human yeah yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:10):
Now, imagine you're a guy who owns people and you
get sick because you ate some bad meat. M Who
are you going to blame?
Speaker 2 (42:21):
Probably the probably the people that cooked the meat.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
Yeah. So people were getting sick and dying because they
were bad at being humans. Uh, and they had bad food.
They were like they had stored stockpiled food that spoiled
and they ate it anyway because they're dumb Europeans.
Speaker 3 (42:41):
You poisoned us, Yeah, no, sir, the air did. Yeah,
that's called sal Manila.
Speaker 2 (42:49):
Yeah okay, yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:51):
Or like they get mosquito bit and they're dying and
they're like I bet it was. And to be fair,
if you are like a monster who is destroying hundreds
of thousands of people's lives, it's reasonable to think that
they're the ones who hurt you.
Speaker 3 (43:05):
And that again makes so much sense. And if you
and if you, the black people you like could be
exactly maybe I did. Yeah, maybe I did. You know
what I'm saying, like, do nothing? They just left You
left the milk out all night and then drank it
real like, yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:22):
You ain't smell that beef before you cooked it. You see,
we wasn't eating it. Yeah, you don't feed us nothing,
and we knew not to eat that. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:31):
Yeah, And so that is the It seems like historians
are leaning towards the some people just ate some bad
food for a while because some stores went bad.
Speaker 3 (43:42):
And the moral of the story is the great African
American proverb, wash your chicken.
Speaker 1 (43:48):
Yeah, well, I.
Speaker 2 (43:51):
Know scientifically you're not supposed to, but.
Speaker 5 (43:53):
Wash your chicken, wash your rice.
Speaker 2 (43:55):
Wash your chicken, wash your rice. Anyway, what were you saying? No?
Speaker 1 (43:58):
No, okay, So but it seems likely just trace the
story of Mackindal by this other, this new presentation of
it is that up until the point he's in maroon
were more or less all in the same page. He
walks into the mountains and then he kind of just
starts a cult. He has a fairly absentee owner, so
he can kind of just walk around pretending to be
(44:19):
a free black man. I think his owner's usually out
to sea, because like the wife, the new husband is
like off to see or whatever. He has a little
spot in the mountains and he has followers living there
of a religious tradition that derives from Congo practices that
are not Vodu. In particular, he makes it, distributes charms,
get called Mackandal's, and almost everyone coming from these traditions,
(44:43):
as I read it, at least was carrying some kind
of charmer fetish at this point, like a lot of
different practices had you do this, but these ones were
meant to be different. These ones were considered alive. They
had to be fed and such. The mock and dolls
were made of bone fragments from a baptized child taken
from a graveyard, mixed with other stuff like grated plantain
(45:03):
root and soot from a cooking pot, communion bread wrapped
up with a little lead cross. The missionaries were giving
everyone lead crosses, so they had a lot of them. Yeah,
and he would give you a mac and doll and
he'd say, now you're not allowed to eat beans or
fresh meat except for poultry, and you can't drink wine
and if you do, your macandal will stop working unless
you atone. Some of this seems like food safety stuff, right, Yeah,
(45:28):
some of it might have been. You know, a lot
of different religions have been like, oh, we got to
come up with some way to get people to stop drinking.
Speaker 2 (45:33):
So that yeah, people, yeah, start.
Speaker 1 (45:36):
Acting right or whatever. Some of the stuff around the
religious practices I'm more skeptical about, just because they raise
my red flags of like, well, I'm about to tell
you that they worship the literal devil in the second
and that's the part that raises the leg Did they Yeah,
I don't know. In that same way that like people
are always like, oh, these kids worship the devil, and
(45:56):
I'm like, I bet some of them.
Speaker 2 (45:57):
Did.
Speaker 1 (45:58):
I have friends who do? Like no, Yeah, you know,
there's some politics in what he's doing because in the
Congolese tradition, he's from healing people meant healing. The land
illness was caused by bad social relations, and so it's
like this is a sick place because of all this
stuff is happening. He seemed fairly legitimate about like he
also seemed to be actually a good healer and people
(46:20):
will come to him from all over and stuff. And
when I say that it was a cult, I'm claiming
it as distinct from Votu, which was not a cult.
And it seems that his ceremonies started with cursing both
white people and anyone who wasn't yet initiated who was black,
So like everyone who's not with us is bad or whatever,
and that's the where I'm like, if that's true, it's
kind of culty.
Speaker 2 (46:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (46:41):
They theoretically had a cut called the Devil's Hut that
had the largest mocand doll of them all in it.
They also worshiped God. It wasn't a like, you know, literally,
it was kind of a like, ah, you Christians are
forcing us to do this shit, and you got God
and the devil or whatever, they're both fine.
Speaker 2 (46:57):
Put them on the shelf. It's fine.
Speaker 1 (46:58):
Yeah, this is is the largest macandall of them all
the size of a child. And they would worship it
and then say there's nothing in the world greater than
God Satan and after those two Francois macndal. Wow. And
I am afraid of this just being and playing into stereotypes,
But it seems to be being presented as a as
a historical way of looking at a thing that happened,
(47:20):
and it overall is it's not coming from a position
of like, oh and those wacky you know, devil worshipers
or whatever. He helped a lot of people. He formed
a little counter society outside of slave society. Also again
you're like, even if you're like, ah, it's a little weird,
like the other thing is slave society.
Speaker 2 (47:36):
Yeah, I don't know, man, I'm gonna go.
Speaker 3 (47:38):
I think i'd I'd take my chances with the with
the weird kulti voodoo then.
Speaker 2 (47:42):
To continue to be a slave.
Speaker 1 (47:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (47:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:45):
And he's basically a service magician. He is, you know,
present in basically every society throughout history as you have
the person who performs divination and healing and stuff. The
main thing the book I read didn't call him a
cult leader. That's my interpretation of what I read. Yeah,
they called them a diviner, and that seems very likely.
And a service magician is contrasted from witchcraft. Witchcraft in
(48:10):
this context, not Haitian context, but the context of like
talking about pre modern magic whatever. Witchcraft is like magic
that does stuff I don't want it to. So witchcraft
is the like poison your crops and kill your cattle
and make you unfertile and like, you know, and service
magicians including Macandahl regularly work to counter witchcraft. So among
(48:32):
his like charms and stuff is he'd be like, well,
I can tell you who is poisoning you, you know,
I can. I can divine who has cursed you, right, okay.
And it was actually this particular task, the figuring out
who poisoned someone that got him killed because people were
dying a bunch of bad food at the time, or
(48:54):
possibly being poisoned. I don't know, but probably mostly the
supplies had gone bad, and there's this mass hysteria and
colonial authorities are convinced that it is evil African magic
killing everyone. And so before they got to him, they
rounded up a bunch of other like suspected poisoners in
a very witchcraft trial way where they're like you grab
one person, you torture them, and they're like, ah, my
friends made me do it and they name them and
(49:14):
then they go get them and you torture them and yeah,
you know. And so they were already afraid of the
big evil poison plot to kill all the white people,
and the coffee plantations have been creeping up the mountains
and it was more people from Congo, and so that
was like one of the communities he was working within,
and they had their big December dance, their work party,
(49:37):
and they invited him because they needed him to help
divine who had been poisoning them. But then a little
boy went and told the white people that there was
a poisoner at the dance.
Speaker 2 (49:47):
Damn it, I know, I know.
Speaker 1 (49:50):
Two colonists grabbed him and they didn't have any shackles,
so they hog tied him and then tied him to
a fifty pound weight. What And then yeah, because speaking
of the way that you Europeans would like murder people
like the whole like all of the terrible devices that
blacksmiths came up with to do to enslave people like.
Speaker 2 (50:11):
But like why though, yeah why yeah? Yeah.
Speaker 1 (50:16):
I remember the first time I watched a movie about
a Maroon community and it had one of the people
in one of those like net cages with spikes pointing
to your neck so your head has to stay up right.
And I remember like seeing that in the movie and
I was like, dear Internet, and the Internet was like yeah, no, no, yeah,
people used to do that to people, Like yeah, yeah
for real, Yeah that was the thing. Imagine living in
(50:38):
that society and being like this.
Speaker 2 (50:39):
Is all right, you know, and and that you're on
the right side of history. Yeah, Like how do you
fucking sleep at night?
Speaker 4 (50:47):
How?
Speaker 2 (50:47):
How do you think of it? Like we do? Do
you just come to you in a drink? Like how
you think of it?
Speaker 1 (50:53):
Yeah, you're clearly enjoying the art form of your work.
And I yeah, I like don't traditionally believe in hell
is a concept, but I might now you.
Speaker 2 (51:01):
Know, no fam that came out of it. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (51:06):
So he has a fifty pound weight tied to him.
They hold him captive. After his guards fall asleep, he
crawls out the window, even though he's still tied up,
and he is like running through the fields, probably dragging
his fifty pound weight. They catch him with dogs. They
arrest him. He's held in jail. In court, he denied
making poisons. He did name some of his followers. I
(51:27):
assume he's being tortured, and these are all they're all arrested,
and I think most of them are killed too. There's
almost no records of the trial. Instead of it being
like the actual records of the trial, it's the like
side notes, like the recollect like the people talking about
it or whatever. There's no evidence brought against him for poisoning,
even though that's what he's killed for. Oh, he was convicted,
(51:51):
and among his many things was seducing slaves and corrupting people.
He was also the reason they burned him at the
stake is that what he did was sacrilegious because he
crosses in his charms, even though he's from a place
that's been using crosses in their charms for two hundred
and fifty years, because the Congo has had Christians there
for a really long time, for a long time.
Speaker 4 (52:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (52:09):
Yeah, and he was accused of trying to start a
race war. The only theoretical thing that possibly in any
way backs us up. Though again like literally, if all
the white people have decided that all the blood whatever, anyway,
I don't need to justify this. Yeah. The only thing
that he might have done that said something like that
is that. There's a one follower said that he performed
(52:32):
a magic trick once where he took a he turned
a cloth from olive to white to black, like kind
of just like handkerchief magic, you know, oh yeah, yeah,
which is really charming. And when he did it, he
used it to represent who rules the island. Olive was
the indigenous people, white for the French, and black for
the people who would rule. And this was like, see,
(52:54):
he's going to have a race war like again whatever.
Speaker 4 (52:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (52:58):
By the end of the day, the I just handed
down the sentence and he was burned at the stake
the same day.
Speaker 2 (53:04):
Damn.
Speaker 1 (53:05):
While he was on fire, he pulled his shackles out
from the post and ran for it. He was recaptured
and tied up again. And then I don't have any
reason to say that he didn't turn into a mosquito
and killed all the invading armies, because it could be,
you know. And that is uh the end of part two.
I remember four partner in the Haitian Revolution.
Speaker 2 (53:27):
Francois getting us to thirty years before the Haitian Revolution.
Speaker 3 (53:30):
Shall stiff got to the revolution. I'm just no Haiti
still got slaves right now? If you're keeping up. There's
still still slaves in Haiti right now.
Speaker 1 (53:39):
I've tried a couple of times to keep up with
what's going on in Haiti, and it is I don't
want to be like gets messy and so therefore I
don't understand it. But I just like literally haven't really
come to understand it yet.
Speaker 3 (53:47):
Oh right now, it's it's it's like it's the Warriors movie.
Speaker 2 (53:51):
It's gangs.
Speaker 3 (53:52):
Yeah, and even the guy that's the prime minister, his
name is Barbecue no Less.
Speaker 1 (53:56):
Yeah, that's what I remember from Barbecue Gang Gang.
Speaker 3 (54:00):
Yeah, I mean, yeah, like it's pretty The first crash
out was a few years back, when you know, the
prime minister left. They just ran him out and he
was he was somewhere in Columbia, and I think that
that was like an they put a hit out on you.
Speaker 2 (54:16):
Yeah, you know, but like, yeah.
Speaker 3 (54:18):
I say this with all like a complete straight face.
I'm like, yeah, no, that's it's.
Speaker 2 (54:23):
Yeah, it is not safe in Port de Prince right now.
Speaker 1 (54:26):
Yeah, no, yeah, it doesn't surprise me. And then just
I mean watching what I don't know, hundreds of years
of just like every other country in the world, just
trying to fuck you.
Speaker 3 (54:39):
I just the only like, imagine you're a kid. You're
playing djenga in just like every ten minutes, somebody, your
brother's friend just comes and kicks the shit out of
the whole thing. Yeah, and you're just like, well, damn.
And then you try to do it again, somebody else
just kicks the shit out of the whole thing.
Speaker 2 (54:56):
Yeah, And then they're all looking at you like, how
come you don't know how to do janga? Yeah, you're
so bad at this. It keeps falling over.
Speaker 3 (55:02):
Suck it Jenga. And I'm like, well, if you didn't
kick it, yeah, might be able to figure some shit out.
Speaker 2 (55:08):
Yeah. And then you just took half the bricks.
Speaker 1 (55:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (55:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (55:13):
The more you learn about how wealth is just systemically
stripped from marginalized communities, including in the United States, just
just which means that they're producing wealth, Like they wouldn't
put a chain store into a ghetto if it didn't
give them money, if there wasn't wealth being produced in
(55:33):
that community, and they want it for themselves instead.
Speaker 2 (55:37):
Thank you that.
Speaker 3 (55:38):
Thank thank you for saying that, because I'm like, why, like,
why why is Africa?
Speaker 1 (55:44):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (55:44):
Just farmed and raped and drained and tapped dry by
Europe and the rest of the Western ass because it's
got shipp.
Speaker 2 (55:51):
Yeah, because it's rich as fuck. Yeah, it's rich as fuck.
That's why. Yeah. Yeah, damn man.
Speaker 1 (55:58):
Well on that pleasant.
Speaker 2 (56:00):
Hey, at least they're about to have the most successful
slaver vault in history.
Speaker 3 (56:03):
I was like, does the cool part start? Yeah, Okay,
that's what I signed up for.
Speaker 1 (56:07):
No, I know, and and what I thought he was
just this poisoner guy. That's why I was like, and
then I'm gonna leave on a high note because he's
gonna do this amazing thing. And then I'm like, but
he still did this amazing thing. You know. It's like
leading a like both free and unfree people into like
healing and like community in the mountains. Like yeah, for years,
(56:28):
you know, he was for a decade he was up
there as a maroon and again in the Saw Factory.
I've never seen the Saw movies. Is going to be
really obvious to everyone who has is I keep using
this discomparison. Yeah, it's just my Like, it's literally like
the most horror I can horror imagine, because the reason
I don't watch it is because it's too.
Speaker 3 (56:46):
Hard, you know, Yeah, I feel you, but no, I think, yeah,
I think the yeah, like the messiness that we talked
about earlier, you know, is something to me. But I
think there is something to be said about like just
myth making, and like sometimes that like myth making becomes
like you said, that becomes the truth. Yeah, you know,
and that's like and which is you know, us as
(57:08):
people who enjoy history, ends up that actually ends up
being more true than what happened. Yeah, because because the
myth making is impact, Yes, is the impact and how
that affected the rest of the world that you were in.
It created a reality that existed because of this myth.
(57:28):
So I think so to that point, yeah, the myth
is also something that should be understood in its historical context.
Speaker 1 (57:37):
Yeah. And even the fact that like how deeply Haiti
the Haitian Revolution scared all of the like white colonial forces. Yeah,
like and then they all punished them for it. But
it's like that's how intense the impact was. Even though
it like yeah, kind of it's still better than not
having had that revolution, right, but like sure it kind
(57:58):
of didn't work out great for them, you know, yeah,
the white lash, but like but someone's got to do something,
you know. And also like it really did spur on
so much of US abolitionism, even.
Speaker 2 (58:11):
Though it like absolutely yeah, and there.
Speaker 1 (58:14):
Was people like going from the US over to Haiti
and there was like people planning to invade the US.
There was like, I can't remember his name, there's an
abolitionist as a black man and self emancipated and then
like went to Haiti to raise an army and was
going to invade.
Speaker 2 (58:29):
But then I think it was gonna come back.
Speaker 4 (58:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (58:31):
I think then that the Civil War kicked off while
he was getting ready for that, and so he was like,
all right, let's go do that instead, you know.
Speaker 2 (58:37):
Yeah, but yeah, it's.
Speaker 1 (58:39):
So impactful anyway, whatever, we'll keep talking about how it's impactful.
As we talked about what happened.
Speaker 2 (58:43):
I can't wait, man.
Speaker 3 (58:44):
Yeah, but anyway, the politics will PROP. I'm gonna go
straight to the to the ads. Hell, yeah, to the
plug politics will prop. Yeah. You can go to prop
hip hop dot com to get I got some shows
coming up, like uh Dope on it LA with Sa
Rock if you know indie hip hop rhyme sayers, she's
one of the dopest MC's on Earth. Sunset Rooftop Flyers
(59:08):
on the website, terror Form the book out, please please
support some poetry, and yeah, in the podcast is still
kicking in, screaming and it's visual now.
Speaker 1 (59:20):
Also hell yeah, And if anyone who doesn't listen to it,
it is just genuinely one of the best like ways
of understanding what's happening in modern politics that I've ever heard.
Speaker 2 (59:30):
So I really appreciate that people should listen to it.
Speaker 1 (59:32):
And if you want to pay more attention to what
I do, Oh, I have a book coming out. I
say that all the time. Yes, I write a lot
of books.
Speaker 2 (59:41):
You write a lot of books.
Speaker 1 (59:42):
But first I'm going to cough, but then Rory's gonna
cut out my coffee, and so I'm just gonna say
I'm gonna cough, but then there's not gonna be a cough,
and you' all are gonna be very confused. But I
have a book called The Immortal Choir Holds Every Voice
is the third book in the Danielle Kine series, and
we'll be kickstarting it in March. And part of that
is that there will be audiobook version of the first
two books too, And if you want to hear the
(01:00:02):
first book, I read it to Robert Evans on this
very podcast. If you go back far enough, if you
go back in Cool Zone Media book Club, Let's go
and yeah, that's a that's about it.
Speaker 3 (01:00:14):
Yeah, I think that you're like this is no gas,
Like I'm not blowing smoke. I like, you're one of
the smartest humans I know. And it's and it has
a lot to do with like your the breadth of
like where your intelligence lies is like I said, it's
like it's in an area that like.
Speaker 2 (01:00:34):
I just skipped. I was like, I'm skipping that chapter,
you know, But it ended up.
Speaker 3 (01:00:39):
Being such like connective tissue for a lot of the
stuff I did end up like spending most of my
time understanding. So like I one reason why I enjoy
the show, but like another reason like hearing you say like, no,
no props, Prop's got a good show, Like it's like
heang like that.
Speaker 2 (01:00:57):
Actually I really take that as a compliment, like for.
Speaker 1 (01:01:00):
I really appreciate it, and I appreciate it. I don't know,
I really like Cool Zone Media and I am proud
to be part of it.
Speaker 3 (01:01:07):
The love Fest. Yeah, we are the Wu Tang of podcasts.
Speaker 1 (01:01:14):
Anyway, We will talk to you all next week with
more about the Haitian Revolution.
Speaker 2 (01:01:18):
Please go.
Speaker 4 (01:01:24):
Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production of
cool Zone Media.
Speaker 5 (01:01:28):
For more podcasts on cool Zone Media, visit our website.
Speaker 4 (01:01:31):
Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever
Speaker 5 (01:01:36):
You get your podcasts.
Also media, Hello and welcome to cool People who did
cool stuff. You're a weekly reminder that I have a
podcast that you've listened to more than once a week.
If you're listening to the second part, I'm your host,
Marta Kiljoy and my guest this week is prop Hi.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
How are you hey? Shout out why Cliff Jean. It's stupid.
I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
He's HAYESHI wait, you know he he didn't eve run
for president of Haiti. He did run for then he won,
like they wouldn't let him.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
Yeah, Mini, he's a great artist.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
Yeah, no, I like his music. I feel like I
don't know anything about him as a person, and maybe
there's something.
Speaker 4 (00:39):
No idea people being like, I don't know who he is.
He's mister Shakira Shakira.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Ja Cara shake Cara.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
Yeah you've heard him. It's funny because in my mind,
I'm like, how could you not hear?
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Why clife? Sewan is?
Speaker 1 (00:50):
I don't know who, like almost anyone is. I think
it's because I was a child of the nineties. I
think that's why I know who he is.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
I was gonna say, I was like, no, it's probably
a age like yeah, yeah, because the Fuji's and Lauren
Hill like that is so important and why Cliff is
so important to that moment.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Yeah, one time, he's.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Got greatest in two of the biggest songs on Earth.
He got an ad lib, you know, so like killing
me softly, He's like one time, two times.
Speaker 4 (01:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
Well, we are indeed talking about Haiti. Well, first we're
talking about the fact that our producer is Sophie Hi, Sophie,
how are you hey? And our audio engineer is Rory Hi.
Rory Hi?
Speaker 2 (01:29):
R I was Roy?
Speaker 5 (01:33):
Oh, Rory you sound different.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
I don't know. I've never met Rory.
Speaker 5 (01:40):
You're hilarious.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Our theme musical is written forced by Unwoman. And this
is part two of what's going to be a four
parter about the Haitian Revolution, which was on my short
list of things that no matter what I knew, I
had to cover at some point or like, well, there's
so much a lot of the stuff, and I still
haven't covered the stuff that I haven't covered because I'm like,
there's so much to it, you know, And we're not
(02:07):
even no one who listens to the show regular is
gonna be shocked. We're not even going to get to
the Haitian Revolution today.
Speaker 5 (02:14):
Multiple episodes in contexts you no.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Way, but this one's full of stories and poison.
Speaker 5 (02:22):
I thoroughly. I thoroughly.
Speaker 4 (02:23):
So we were doing a script read of one of
a series Jamie was working on, and she was like,
and then I realized I needed to do a second part,
and I was like, oh, really really, And it's the
same with you, really, yeah, both of you.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
Because the thing that happens, like one of the things
that I do when I start doing a researching a
topic is I like go and listen to the other
people who've covered it and stuff. To be fair, I
have actually a long time ago I listened to the
Revolutions podcast by Duncan, I think about Haitian revolution, but
I didn't re listen to it for this episode. But
when you go and you just like read the the
(03:01):
pop articles and stuff, you know, like they don't do
it for me. They're missing something. There's nothing wrong with them.
Well sometimes they're literally wrong, but it's flat. Yeah, And
part of it is that it's like, I don't know.
There's a lot of stuff I don't know about the world,
and I like so I like, yeah, I like being
(03:22):
able to come in and be like, hey, look, there's
an island. It's over here. You know, if you're not
from there, you're not born knowing what it is, you know.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
Yeah, I'm also like, my my problem is always like
where do you start? Where do you start the story?
Like like context has context. Whatever starting point you started
had background. Yeah, so you're like, okay, well well let
me tell you about the background. But that background has background.
So I'm always like, where do.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
You I don't know where to start? How do I
bring you in?
Speaker 1 (03:54):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (03:55):
I think it's Karl Segum.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
I could be wrong. Was like, if you want to
if you want to teach someone to make an apple
pieform scrap, you have to create the universe.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
That is an amazing take.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
I remember at one point I got really obsessively into
DIY For a while. I had this cabin that I
had like built in and lived in, and then I
started being like I want to make all my own stuff.
And then I was like, I can't realistically make my
own shoes. I mean, I know people who've made shoes,
but like, realistically it's not going to happen. And then
I was like I can build a computer, but I
can't make a computer. And it's started like bugging me
(04:27):
that I couldn't make everything, and then I eventually now
I don't have to make my own clothes again. Now
I can just go ahead and get close.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:35):
Yeah, there's the bell curve of like like the bell
curve of unplugging, Like at some point you're like.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Well, can I just plug that one?
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (04:44):
Supplements very funny.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
And then with history it's you get the same thing
where you're like, Okay, well I can't I can't do
all of the context ever. Yeah, but I can do
a lot of it, and I enjoy it. So and
send among Vodu was practiced by enslaved people and also
importantly by self emancipated people, by the Maroons. There are
(05:08):
a lot of different arguments about how many what percentage
of people were Maroons at any given point in Haiti's history,
and as we pointed out, all of the records were destroyed,
so we kind of don't really know. But like, the
best estimate I've seen was that about one percent of
the enslaved population was Maroon at any given point, which
would put it at around like five thousand people or so.
(05:30):
But I've also read things that are like twenty thousand
and more, and I don't know. There were also free
people of color on the island who are generally mixed
African and French folks who are called a word that
I don't want to say on air. I just literally
don't know whether I don't.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Know, don't do it.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
Yeah, but it wasn't like cut and dry. Oh, there's
this religion with a distinct name in culture and beliefs
being practiced during as time we talked about history is
really messy. Wording to almost every version of I could
find of the Haitian Revolution, there was this one major
precursor to the Haitian Revolution. I was like, not a
lot of uprisings, and then suddenly this big conspiracy plot
(06:12):
that was a rebellion against colonial power. And that's what
I expected. I was going to tell you today, and
I'm still going to tell you, but I'm going to
tell you. I'm going to tell you two versions of it.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
Uh huh.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
I compared a ton of sources. I wrote it all
up and everything two hours before recording time. I referenced
one more source, a more recent book from twenty twenty
three put out by Harvard Press. I devoured the introduction
in the chapter on the guy that I'm going to
talk about right before recording. The book is called A
Secret among the Blacks Slave Resistance before the Haitian Revolution
(06:45):
by John D. Garagis. Okay, so here are two stories
about a guy named Francois Macandal. You ever heard of
Francois Macandal.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
Like I said, like, I know, just disparate names here
and there, but I can't tell you no facts about him.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
Yeah, I understand. He is entirely mythologized. It's hard to
figure out exactly what's real. And there's this guy, his
original name, his birthplace, all of that is forgotten because
of you know, slavery.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
At first people said he was from the Guinea Coast,
the southern coast of West Africa as it was called
at the time. Later people said he was probably from
the coast of what's now the Republic of Congo. Then
after that people were like, actually, the fact that there's
no vowel at the end of his last name means
he was actually probably from the interior of Congo. But
he is from one of the places. So what they
(07:35):
what that means is he's from one of the places
that everyone in eighty was from.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
Yeah, got it, thanks, yea.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
Yeah, he might have been named after a village or
tribe called Macandahal. He might have been named after Makanda,
meaning a totem or a fetish, or people named his
fetishes Maconda after him. That actually seems like the most likely.
In the pop version of his history, he's royalty. Like
(08:02):
in Africa, he was royalty, and a lot of figures
throughout history, once they're important, people will be like, oh,
they were secretly royalty. Either they were like secretly royalty
in Africa in like a colonized area, or they like
the one white person in their lineage was a princess
or whatever you know. But Makeundal might have actually been royalty.
(08:24):
That seems fairly. It is certainly possible. It might even
be the most likely thing, if nothing else. He was educated.
He knew how to read and write, He spoke Arabic,
and most accounts said he was very, very skilled as
an herbalist. He was also probably Muslim. He knew how
to heal, and he knew how to poison. When he
(08:47):
was twelve, he was captured and trafficked to Sandumung, probably
in the seventeen twenties or the seventeen thirties. He was
called the old man of the Mountain later thirty years later,
but you know, considering most people only lasted a year.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Yeah, he was sold to a.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
Man named Lena mon de Masi. And if I pronounced
your name wrong, you shouldn't have.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
Enslaved people exactly.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
He was set to work on an indigo plantation in
a fairly remote rural area, one that soon turned into
a sugar plantation. Most accounts from long after his death
said that he lost a hand or an arm while
processing sugar, and it gets called a I love the
euphemisms of history. A workplace accident.
Speaker 3 (09:31):
Like this story is starting to like come back of
like the dude one hand Yeah, okay.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
Yeah yeah, like a workplaces?
Speaker 1 (09:40):
Yeah, it's like is it a workplace? Is it an accident? Like?
Neither of those feel like appropriate work.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
I don't think this is a workplace.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
Yeah, he's in the Saw movies and he loses an
arm while he's in the Saw movies. Yes, sugar plantation
work required a bunch of cattle. I guess I. I'm
not an expert on having a sugar plantation. And you
need someone to hang out and keep people away. From
stealing the cattle. And so he's got one arm, and
(10:09):
so they're like all right, or one hand, or maybe
he has both hands. We only have one attestation that
he lost a hand, but either way, he gets a
job guarding cattle. And look, as far as having been
enslaved in the saw factory, this is the job you want.
It is a remote job with almost no supervision. There's
like his boss's owner or whatever. It's like nowhere around.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
And so for a few years, from eighteen forty four
to eighteen forty eight, he hangs out in this hut,
either alone or with another enslaved person, and watches after
the cattle. And meanwhile he builds a reputation as a
healer of animals of enslaved people, and probably white people
were coming to him too. There's a lot of like
the French people were like so fucked because I mean,
(10:53):
they're clearly in a better position, but they're like so fucked, right,
because all of the skilled healers are like herbalists from Africa.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
Yeah, yeah, they're all in the bush yep.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
Yeah, And so you'd like you'd be like, oh, my
kid's sick. I can't take them a little white doctor,
they'll put leeches on them. I don't know if they
put leeches on them or not, but you know, like
the African doctors were doing a lot better work.
Speaker 3 (11:13):
Yeah, they're like they're using plants, like how the rest
of human society has for a long time.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:21):
Also, I still always go back to whenever whenever we
talk about old medicines, this is when I'm like, yeah,
I only want to have been born now. Yeah, totally,
there's no other era i'd want to live in. Yeah, yeah,
you gottah, you gotta cut on your arm. Let's just
saw that shit off. How about a here's some whiskey.
(11:44):
I'm gonna cut your arm off.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
Yeah, and you got a fifty percent chance of surviving
after we do it.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
Hey, you might not make it.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
Yeah, no, I want to be born after antibiotics.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
But like that's yeah, yeah, Like let me just listen.
Speaker 3 (11:58):
Nah, fam you telling me. You're telling me I got
a little sickness. You won't go to the river and
pull out a water roach, you know, and put it
on my cut?
Speaker 2 (12:08):
Like yeah, I'm good. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
God, even imagine being like the people trying to figure
out what works because you're like, well, I guess we
just caught off a bunch of people's arms and see
what happens.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
I don't know, man, it seems like if you just
didn't have that arm where that thing is, it wouldn't
be a product the rest of your body.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
Yeah, and it is better than dying of the infection.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
True. Yeah, I don't want to live at no other time, no, anyway.
Speaker 3 (12:34):
No.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
And so he's living in this hut and then at
some point insides to run away. The two versions of
the story. One version of the story, though like, is
that he walks away. He's like, no one's watching me,
I'm done, and he leaves. The more common version of
the story, I don't know if it's true or not,
is that he had a falling out with the guy
who had enslaved him. Well rather not the original. That
(12:58):
guy dies and then is like wife inherits him and
then marries a new guy and whatever. Yeah, the guy
who owned him was raping this enslaved woman, but he
and that woman were in love. One night he was
caught sleeping with her, and so the slaver ordered him
to be lashed fifty times. This was, as you're kind
(13:18):
of talking about, This is more or less a death sentence. Yeah,
if you are in sandamong and you are lashed fifty times,
you're probably gonna die.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
You're gonna die.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Yeah, And so he's like, well, I don't want to die,
so he leaves or he just left anyway because no
one was watching him.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
I heard that story, like he was just what nobody
there as he just left. Yeah, that's the story I heard.
But who knows.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
No, No, I mean I actually think that both stories work.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
Both stories.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
It is completely possible, but the less spectacular one is
like always going to be slightly more likely in my head,
you know.
Speaker 4 (13:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
Yeah, and especially because it wasn't like and then he
went back and killed whatever, no shade on him, no
matter what he chose. However, he ended up self emancipating. Yeah,
so he walks into the mountains in eighteen forty eight
and he lived there for ten years. And both versions
of the story, besides exactly why he left, they they
agree at this point. Both the like, this isn't where
(14:12):
I had to like rewrite everything. Okay, here's where they
start to fork off. He converts from Islam to Vodu
or I guess you don't really have to give up
Islam to practice vodu, and who knows, he becomes a
leader of the Maroons because he is a man with
an idea. It's a very simple idea when it comes
down to it. It's a simple idea. It's complicated in
(14:33):
its execution, but the idea is this, White people can't
enslave you when they're dead. I'm very sympathetic to this position.
Speaker 3 (14:44):
Hear me out, guys. Yeah, okay, I'm spinballing here. Yeah,
what if they're dead?
Speaker 1 (14:50):
Yeah, yeah, just it's a very elegant solution. Yeah, and
if you don't want to be dead, don't enslave people.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
I feel like they kind of like you kind of
put us in a precarious position here. I feel like
this seems to be that you don't listen to reason. Obviously,
or we wouldn't be here in the first place. So
I feel like, yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
One of your own friars who showed up right away,
was like, this is a bad idea, and you didn't
listen to him.
Speaker 3 (15:14):
That's what your passed to said. You'll pass to say it,
y'all sent it? Yeah, okay.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
And as for how to get these slavers to go
from living slavers to dead bodies. He fell back on
what he knew best plants. He was a brilliant poisoner.
His idea united people across ethnic and linguistic lines. I've
read that he had three thousand Maroons working with him.
I've read that he had twenty thousand maroons working with him.
(15:42):
He built up a network across Sandomong to help people
escape into the hills, with agents in every major city.
He worked with free black people, with the pocketeers who
went from plantation to plantation to pedal wares to enslave
black people. And this part is actually particularly astounding because
getting free black people to be part of a slave
(16:03):
vault at this time was particularly hard because there was
a kind of a three way tension happening between the French,
the free black people, many of whom were middle class,
and the enslaved black people. And so good on him
if that is, and good on the you know, middle
class people for thrown down.
Speaker 3 (16:19):
Yeah, because once you're out, you're like, well, I'm not
trying to like like you're supposed to stay under a radar, like, oh,
I don't want no problems, Like I'm out. We made it,
just you know, good luck to you.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
But Yeah, slip you a little bit of money if
you need to get Yeah, yeah, here you go.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
Yeah yeah, get out of your kid. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
These groups led raids on plantations to free people and
steal shit. And several times, the story goes he was
captured and each time he escaped, he recruited people, and
then he and his agents started poisoning people. About six
thousand people were poisoned to death during this. If you
read a simplistic retelling of events, he poisoned white people.
(16:59):
That's the nice way to tell the story, right, Yeah,
if you read the stuff that's more willing to engage
in the ethically complicated nature of revolt. He poisoned white people,
and he poisoned black people who didn't agree with him
about his plans for revolution. Yeah, and he also poisoned
livestock and crops because those animals and crops were capital
assets of the colonial economy.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:19):
The part that was brought forth to me, like when
they it was always a comparison contrast between like him
and Harriet. Tell me that's the way I remember real
being taught to me. Oh interesting, Yeah, in his like
I got out, but I'm not just gonna leave y'all.
You know what I'm saying, Like we're going to figure
out how to get everybody out. But the difference between yeah,
(17:42):
when he's male, it was female, like you know, working
with cloaks, but just him being like if you ain't
forced you against us, Yeah, and his understanding, whether he
knew it or not, of capitalism of like you have
to like you have to not only do you have to,
you have to cut off their reason for even having slaves,
(18:02):
you know, and that understanding of that sort of solidarity
of like non poisono cattle and the idea that like
I've always said that, like privilege makes you brittle, but
it also makes you aloof in the sense that you're
not paying attention to what we're putting in these drinks.
You're not paying attention to that, you know how we're
making you salad. You're not paying attention to this. You
(18:23):
know what I'm saying, Like you don't know what we
feed you, you know, So that as a act of
resistance was like I said, that's when you said Francoise
was like I knew the name and like it was
starting to come together, But that was the thing to
where it's like you have to you have.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
To cut off the money.
Speaker 3 (18:40):
And that's what what we understood him as, whereas Harriet
Tubman was like, well let's get free, right, he was like,
you got to stop the money because they just gonna
bring somebody else.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
Yeah, you know yeah yeah, and also just like and
we're just gonna literally kill them until they go away,
you know, like we're gonna.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
Just like you don't have to be here. No.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
As a that is a really interesting comparison to to
him because I got you know, I mean, Harry Tubmans
like one of the most singular heroes in all of history,
you know. But like you look at this and I'm like, well,
it's not a bad plan.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
Yeah, I mean, like you know what I'm saying, it'd
be like and you know, and it's like and Haiti
not like Haiti was aware of America, you know what
I'm saying. But like at the time or now looking
at it now, I'm like, it's hey, he's a lot smaller.
Yeah then you know, the Confederate South, so it's smaller.
So there's like you could probably pull it off. Like
there's not that many of y'all, you.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
Know, saying there's only about I had trouble finding the
exact population of white versus black and exactly this year.
But by looking at charts and conjecturing there's about half
a million enslave people and there's about forty thousand white people.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
It's not that many.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
Yeah, yeah, So if he killed six thousand of them,
that is fifteen percent of the white people. Big, well,
on your way, you know.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
Some say that this poisoning spree lasted six years. Some
say that lasted eighteen years. Some say that it was
more than six thousand people. Some people say his goal
was to spark a race war and or just literally
kill all the white people on the island. It could
have worked. He was working on his most ambitious project.
Yet when he was caught what his most ambitious project
(20:20):
was speaking of fucking with the money is pivoting to ad.
See he started podcasting.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
Yeah, that was good. That was good.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
You have me, Thank you, thank you. That's a that's
my main job. Here. Here's a bunch of ads and
we're back. So he's working on this ambitious project. He
is going to poison the water supply of cap friend Swis,
(20:49):
the capital of the colony. In seventeen seventy, the Capital
is going to move to Porta Prince, but that was
already more populous cap front, sois was like the second
most populous city trying to kill a ton of people
in the Capitol. In terms of the ethics of this
particular action, Look, he is not walking away without blood
on his hands. Two thirds or so of the population
the city was enslaved. But you know, he also told
(21:14):
people that he had magic powers. He told people that
he was immortal. He said that if he were to
be killed, he would not die, but instead he would
return as a mosquito to keep killing slavers.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
Love it, Yeah, love it.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
He goes to a local dance at a plantation. There's
like a party once a year. Basically you get your
holiday party and he's ratted out and captured at the party.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
I just had this totally separate I just had this
image of just like, yeah, your work, your office into
the year Christmas party.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Yeah, slaves though.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
Yeah, and only half of you are still alive from
the start of the year.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
Yeah yeah. Looking at that party, that party would be
either morose.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Or wild or both. Dude, And I mean, can we
kind of actually know a little bit about how those
parties went because that's where vodoo comes from. Yes, like
let's do ecstatic stuff while we're like trying not to die.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
So he's captured, he breaks out of his cell, he's recaptured.
He is sentenced to death by being burned at the stake.
On January twentieth, eighteen fifty eight. He is burned at
the stake. First he slips his bonds, even though he's
like missing a hand. He has to be retied, and
then he's burned in order to make an example out
of him. Enslave people were brought to witness his death,
(22:35):
but they said he did not die. We saw him.
He turned into a mosquito and he flew away. He
promised he would return and free all of us. And
mosquitoes did a lot of the killing killing in the
Haitian Revolution. Yes, yes, mosquito born illnesses were essential to
(22:55):
military victory of the Haitian people against the European powers.
And as those soldiers died, people would say, see Macon
Dallas still doing his work.
Speaker 3 (23:04):
Good old sickle cell anemia. Yeah, yeah, I came to
save us all. You know what I'm talking about.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
No, I don't remember, because I didn't because I haven't
gone to the part where I remember it was like
yellow fever or something killed a lot.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
Yeah, not like so malaria.
Speaker 3 (23:22):
Like even this helped, even with like Rome trying to
conquer Africa was because Africans.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Developed a recessive sickle cell trade.
Speaker 3 (23:31):
Now if you get two dominant ones, how you get
sickle cell anemia. If you have one dominant and one recessive,
which most West Africans have, then we become in some
ways we have a defense against malaria. Right, so from
a lot of the mosquito born problems, but that shit
was wiping out the colonize and it's like, it's because
(23:52):
we have sickle cell like white blood cells, you know.
And it's like so it's it's been There's even an
island off the coast of South Carolina that ended up
like all of the white people had to leave because
there was too many mosquitoes. But it was killing in
but it wasn't killing us. And it's because we're from
West Africa and we have sickle cell traits, so I
(24:13):
don't kill it.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
So that's why I was like good old sickle seal.
Speaker 1 (24:17):
That's probably a huge reason why they had to wait
to invent the machine gun. In order to take most
of Africa.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
Yeah. Yeah, the mosquitos was killing him.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
Yeah yeah, we weren't getting the yellow fever, like we
just wouldn't given it, and it was.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
Yeah, and the people who are gonna get sick and
died already gotten sick and died, you know, whereas all
the soldiers had just shown up and were just like
completely destroyed.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
And charms and omulets and poisons would be called macanda still,
and a practitioner who makes these might get called them Macandal.
It's possible that the etymology goes the other way, that
he got the name macandal not because of where he
was from or like whatever, but because of what he did.
They might have called him that as sort of a
word for like witch or you know, yeah, practitioner. But
(25:02):
that's okay. So this is that's the story I was
prepared to tell you.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
Uh huh.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
I've read it. I've read a dozen ways, and is
a wonderful story, and I sort of secretly hope it's
true what I'm guessing happened based on this book. And like,
maybe this random book from twenty twenty three isn't true, right,
I don't know this story that it presents about what
happened with Makendahal maps so clearly to what we've talked
about over and over on the show about hysteria around
(25:29):
magic and witchcraft. It parallels the story of Elizabeth Battori
was the you heard about the like usually people call
her Bathory and she like bathed in the blood of
virgins to stay forever young. She was one of the
first people we sort of accidentally covered on the show.
She almost certainly was just like a healer woman who
was like a rich aristocratic lady who lived alone and
(25:52):
taught girls how to become healers. But she owed the
king owed her money, so the king went after her
and like wow, had like an inquisition against her and
locked her up in her own castle and accused her
of killing virgins or whatever. You know, I.
Speaker 3 (26:05):
Swear like us Listen, Yeah, I'm glad, Margaret. I'm glad
you got out when you could. Because men are just
like I just like sometimes I'd just be like, oh this,
oh that woman's smart witch.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:22):
Oh they don't like they don't like, they really just don't.
Sometimes they just like being alone among themselves and they
don't have to worry about nobody sexualizing their bodies or.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
Like yeah, bro, like what like she can read witch?
Speaker 4 (26:39):
Yeah, just to say nothing wrong with which was nothing
wrong with horrors?
Speaker 1 (26:43):
Nope, we support, we stand, and but people are saying
it in a real not nice way.
Speaker 4 (26:47):
Yeah, yes, listen, yes, yeah, you know what's great?
Speaker 5 (26:52):
Do you know what's great though?
Speaker 2 (26:53):
What?
Speaker 1 (26:53):
Oh?
Speaker 5 (26:53):
Witchy horror?
Speaker 2 (26:54):
Oh yeah and witchy horror?
Speaker 4 (26:56):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (26:57):
Whoa some of my best friends, some of your best friends?
Was the music?
Speaker 4 (27:02):
Some of my friends just the witchiest soares you've ever met?
Speaker 1 (27:08):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (27:08):
Man, oh, this girl knows how it like knows that
this flower when you mix it with this when it
makes a good.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
Tea, which yea better burn her? Yeah, and it And
it also happens to people who marginalize in other ways.
It happens to people who racialize. The whole history of
the way that people talk about voodoo and voodoo is
this right? It's like, what you have a religion where
you sacrifice an animal? It's clearly the devil.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
You're like, yeah, what, okay, what are you talking about?
Sacrificial lamb? Got it?
Speaker 1 (27:39):
Yeah, yeah, totally.
Speaker 2 (27:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
It's good when we drink blood. It's bad when you
and I would say ours is uh is not literal,
but Catholics literally believe it's literal.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
So yeah, yeah, transubstantiation, transistantiation. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
So the short version what this book presents the idea
of is he he never poisoned anyone. Really, he was
a He was a kind of wacky cult leader who
was framed up and executed during a like a panic,
a witch panic.
Speaker 3 (28:13):
More or less, I wish I wish listeners could see
my face repressing right now. I'm like what yeah, oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
And and so it's like and I feel hesitant saying
it because this is a like he's an important cultural figure.
Speaker 3 (28:27):
He's a big deal. Like a lot of people are
named Francois because of him.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
Yeah, Like yeah, like what I'm gonna quote Seal R.
James about him soon, you know, like like he's an
important fucking figure.
Speaker 2 (28:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
But the whole like kill all the white people is
the thing I currently believe. I could, I could, I
could be proven wrong. I would support this man either way.
It was probably white people freaking out. It was probably
a like a panic on some.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
Nat Turner type panic. Yeah. Yeah, I never thought of
it like that. Dang.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
And so you know, there's this whole thing, where like
oppressors are always convinced that the people that they oppress
are just waiting to turn the tables and do the
exact opposite. Yeah, right, like Israeli citizens who are like, oh,
we can't free Palestine because then they'll kill us all
because we treated them so badly for so long. Yeah,
Or white people in the US who are like, who
(29:20):
believe that the majority of black people want to kill
all the white people instead of end white power? Right?
Speaker 2 (29:25):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (29:26):
And I actually think if he had wanted to kill
all the white people on the island, I think there's
an understandable impulse and might have been strategically sound like, yeah,
you get into the blurry like it's probably never good
to kill children, you know, Like I mean you brought
up that Turner earlier, right, Like you know that Turner,
as far as I understand his raids, absolutely killed like
(29:46):
you know, non combatant white people or whatever.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
H Yeah, you just gonna grow up and become a slaver.
So yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
But like if you're in the Saw movie and you
have a chance to try and stop the next one,
I am not at you, Like, yeah, in the abstract, no,
don't kill innocent people, you know, Yeah, but like I'm
not mad at that turner, and I am not mad
at the version that I thought this man was.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
Yeah, I don't know. That's wow, that is it makes
so much sense, the idea that like, well, yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:22):
It was a it was a panic, yeah, and yeah
he was and he was you know, he probably inspired
some people. You know, maybe some people got poisoned because again,
like we make your food, yeah, do you know, so
like yeah, like I don't, I mean, we good, you know.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
And it's one of the things that I like almost
like literally keeps me up a night because I'm a
little bit obsessive about my job is the fact that
like you start off with the version of the story
like take patre Oh she bathed in virgin blood to
stay young forever, and you're like, no, she probably didn't, right, Yeah,
she's probably like a healer, right, but but what if
she did, Now that would actually not be an ethical
(31:01):
thing to do, but liketal, it's not boring, is an
interesting thing, and then like all kinds of shit like
in that story. One of the reasons she ended up
the way she did theoretically, but again, she probably didn't
turn out the way people say she did uh huh.
She watched her dad, who was like the count or
whatever the fuck, execute someone by cutting open a cow
(31:23):
and then swing the person alive into the stomach of
the cow. What And that is not contested. The way
that Europeans killed people. It seemed like every time they
executed them, they had to come up with the most
widely coyote way of doing it.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
Yeah, like they just got bored. Ye just think of
some mills.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
And so then I read about like there's this whole
thing where Italian women were poisoning their husbands because before
Republicans want to get rid of no fault divorce, the
thing that women had before no fault divorce was we
make your food and we're going to poison you. And
that's real as best as I can tell. And it
seems real that there was this quote unquote magical underground
(32:03):
in a lot of Western European cities, like in the
early modern era, like medieval era or whatever, where you
go and you can talk to someone who will provide
abortion for you, who will read your fortune, who will
do this. It's called a service. Magic is the way
an anthropologist everyone talks about it.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
Yeah, we're just.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
Going to come back into this story in a little bit.
And maybe those people killed kids. I don't know they
were accused of it. Yeah, they probably didn't. But yeah,
we've lived in this world long enough to see crazy shit,
Yeah happen in the news. So like like the Satanic
panic of the eighties, those kids weren't out there of
(32:42):
sacrificing kids to worship the devil, but someone probably did
at some point, right.
Speaker 3 (32:47):
Like Mighty was being funny and just enjoy themselves and yeah,
you're right, that is true, dude.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
Yeah, it's and so so yeah, this poison plot almost
certainly just describing hysteria. But as you pointed out, probably
a bunch of these people got poisoned.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
Idea.
Speaker 1 (33:06):
Yeah maybe not by Mackndall, but like they certainly deserved
to be.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
It's easier, Yeah, it's easier.
Speaker 3 (33:12):
It's needed to wrap this thing that you don't understand.
Just wrap it up with a nice little bow with
a person. This, dude, is where it came from.
Speaker 2 (33:21):
Totally. It just easier to wrap your brain around that totally. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
No, that's such a good way to put it, because like, okay,
and so the idea that he was going to kill
all the white people. Whatever is probably propaganda. And the
argument that is made about this, we know that there
is propaganda that says this. The year he was killed
seventeen fifty eight, there were already anti black pamphlets circulating
around France about how he had been leading an army
set on killing all the white people. By seventeen eighty seven,
(33:48):
there was a new version going around that he was
just a crazy man. He was a gifted healer who
had been driven mad by the evils of slavery. And
after the Haitian Revolution, this was the version of the
story that's spread. Cel R. James one of the more
important black theorists and historians. Yeah, he wrote a book
called The Black Jacobins about the Haitian Revolution in nineteen
(34:09):
thirty eight, and in it he wrote, quote, an uninstructed
mass feeling its way to revolution usually begins by terrorism,
and Mackndahl aimed at delivering his people by means of poison. Yeah,
and so it's like it is a justifiable thing to believe.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (34:28):
Yeah, there's no like, dude, even listening to your past
episodes just about various things that different anarchist revolutions and
stuff like that, that happened in Europe, like I think out
of just trauma, pain and protest, I like refuse to
learn about a lot of Europe, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, yeah,
fair so much more. Yeah, Earth is much larger than this, guys.
(34:52):
You know. So but that being said, you miss out
on a lot of like pretty dope shit that was
going on up there. You know, you sometimes get to
this place to where you're like, damn, like I can't,
we can't, we can't know what happened, you know. So
then I start thinking about now and I'm like, well,
(35:13):
how many how many things can I not really explain
to y'all? Like how am I going to explain like
Sophie appreciate this? How am I going to explain Kendrick
and Drake to y'all to a hundred years from now?
How am I going to say? Like I like, it's
I'm listening, you know, with the Bastard's thing on Oprah,
(35:34):
Like I can't understate how big Oprah is, you know,
And or was like to be like mister beast like.
Speaker 2 (35:42):
Is that like how do I how do.
Speaker 3 (35:45):
I make you understand? You know what I'm saying? Like
That's what I was trying to say with Drake with
a lot of your young lings. I was like, listen,
I can't understate how big of a star jaw Rule was,
Like when I tell you Jah Rule was Drake like,
and he's a joke now because of fifty cent And
(36:07):
I don't know how Like I know that doesn't make
sense to you, but you just like I, I can't.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
Draw this straight line for you.
Speaker 3 (36:16):
So I think about now how frustrated I would be
to be like when Kendrick said he's not like us,
like all of what that means?
Speaker 2 (36:26):
Who is us? What do we mean by that?
Speaker 3 (36:27):
Like this was a this is a like I'm I'm
I'm trying to make a parallel here, but like, this
is a moment. It's a moment in pop culture, subculture
and hip hop culture. This is a like I'm not
being corny, this is a water that was a watershed moment.
Ye like that I think changed the music industry and
changed hip hop forever. Like I truly believe that moment
(36:49):
what Kendrick did right now, But how do you how
do we do it? How do we do a cool
people episode on Kendrick? Like I don't know how to
explain what this and how this moment came because because
this happened, well, then I have to talk about Mustard
sending in five beats a day for three months, you
know what I mean? And that's why we're going star
you know what I'm saying, like, I don't I don't
(37:10):
know how to I don't know what's myth.
Speaker 4 (37:12):
Just send that video up and playing. They're not like
us like seventeen times.
Speaker 5 (37:17):
At the forum.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
It's so amazing.
Speaker 4 (37:20):
So and then just like seeing everybody's faces in the crowd,
it's like that's it.
Speaker 2 (37:25):
But how do you put it back? Yeah?
Speaker 5 (37:27):
But how do you put that into words? Is the question?
Speaker 2 (37:29):
How do I put it into words?
Speaker 3 (37:31):
Yeah? And then so then what do you do? You
you know, you film a biopic and you say, oh, yeah,
you know, Kendrick.
Speaker 1 (37:37):
I simplify it.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
You simplify it.
Speaker 3 (37:40):
But it's like it's frustrating because like it was so
much more beautiful than that. Yeah, you know, so whatever
happened with francois that Like I'm really my mind blown
by being because what you're saying is so possible that
it's like probably wasn't even probably wasn't even that serious,
Like you know.
Speaker 1 (37:57):
Yeah, no, and and and so much is built up
around this concept that you almost get into this like
at a certain point it almost becomes true, you know,
it almost like yeah, it's so messy and I don't know. Yeah,
the the unknowableness of so much of this. Yeah, it's
the thing that keeps me up at night is that
(38:17):
I'm like, I will read all of these different sources
and all of them are flawed. But that's like, oh lord,
the concept of exploring mysteries you can't understand is like
central of the Catholic faith. And yeah, like the idea
that you can never know God, right, you just can
kind of peace out around it. That's like how I
feel like trying to read this history shit is that
(38:38):
I'm like, yeah, well I have all of these impressions,
and somewhere in the impression is the blurry truth, you know.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (38:45):
And it's supposed to be like bouncing off the mysticism
of the of the Christian faith. Unfortunately, evangelicalism tried to
turn it into a rubric and here's your points. But
that's supposed to be beautiful, yeah, supposed to be inspiring
that you that this is above us. It's this this
transcendent thing that all of us are attracted to, and
(39:08):
we can't wrap our minds around it or wrap our
hands around it. And that's what makes it divine. And
you're supposed that's supposed to inspire you. Yeah, you rather
than getting your arms around it, building a fence and
saying I understand who God is and you don't, you
know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (39:23):
So yeah, So like.
Speaker 3 (39:24):
I however, well we talk about hit, I'm frustrated. Yeah,
but with history, I'm like, no, but like what happened though,
I know.
Speaker 1 (39:30):
I know, you know exactly. No, Yeah, yeah, Like, well
what John de Garrigus claims happened. Quote He was a
diviner in the Congo tradition who formed spiritual communities for
healing and self defense, and doing so, he established one
of the multiple cultures of resistance that emerged in the
decades before the Haitian Revolution. Other enslaved people took vengeance
(39:53):
against their enslavers or appealed to colonial courts to protect
them from torture and abuse. Still, others planned and participated
labor stoppages and strikes against plantation policies and leadership. Enslave
people were thinking strategically about their lives as they imagined
and worked for a future in which French colonists would
no longer dominate sand among And so he's saying, like, look,
(40:16):
he did something interesting. He created these like communities for
self defense and healing and other people who weren't just
led by him. He didn't have like an army everywhere,
you know, Yeah, got all this shit done? And what
what the he claims actually happened. What these communities for
healing and self defense are was that they all got
(40:37):
together and did its sports ad gambling stuff.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
Did it to me a kid?
Speaker 1 (40:43):
Thank you? Thank you.
Speaker 3 (40:45):
I honestly think if we ever do a Cool Zone Awards,
like Margaret a girl, you.
Speaker 4 (40:51):
Use the judge for the Coal Zone Awards because it's me.
I'm like, you get a trophy, you get a trophy,
you get you get.
Speaker 5 (40:57):
A trophy, everybody gets a trophy.
Speaker 2 (41:00):
Yeah, you can't be the judge.
Speaker 3 (41:02):
I'd like then no one else is ever like like
actually tricks me.
Speaker 2 (41:06):
I'm like, wait, what happens next?
Speaker 1 (41:10):
What it takes a deep cynesis because with Robert he
changes his voice.
Speaker 2 (41:15):
Yeah, the pitch is different, you're.
Speaker 5 (41:17):
Fully stay in tone.
Speaker 2 (41:20):
Yeah, it's pretty good, thanks.
Speaker 5 (41:21):
Whereas Robert's like and you know who.
Speaker 2 (41:24):
Yeah, you're like, oh, commercial.
Speaker 5 (41:26):
Coming, and you're like, yeah, are we fucking five billion?
Speaker 1 (41:33):
And here's some of them unless you have cooler zone media,
in which case here's none of them and we're back.
So in terms of what happened, Okay, you ever had
a roommate or you like live with people who aren't
(41:55):
your roommates and something goes missing and you're like, damn
you roommate, you probably stole my thing like that. Oh absolutely, yeah, sibling.
Speaker 2 (42:06):
Yeah, listen, living with another human yeah yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:10):
Now, imagine you're a guy who owns people and you
get sick because you ate some bad meat. M Who
are you going to blame?
Speaker 2 (42:21):
Probably the probably the people that cooked the meat.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
Yeah. So people were getting sick and dying because they
were bad at being humans. Uh, and they had bad food.
They were like they had stored stockpiled food that spoiled
and they ate it anyway because they're dumb Europeans.
Speaker 3 (42:41):
You poisoned us, Yeah, no, sir, the air did. Yeah,
that's called sal Manila.
Speaker 2 (42:49):
Yeah okay, yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:51):
Or like they get mosquito bit and they're dying and
they're like I bet it was. And to be fair,
if you are like a monster who is destroying hundreds
of thousands of people's lives, it's reasonable to think that
they're the ones who hurt you.
Speaker 3 (43:05):
And that again makes so much sense. And if you
and if you, the black people you like could be
exactly maybe I did. Yeah, maybe I did. You know
what I'm saying, like, do nothing? They just left You
left the milk out all night and then drank it
real like, yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:22):
You ain't smell that beef before you cooked it. You see,
we wasn't eating it. Yeah, you don't feed us nothing,
and we knew not to eat that. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:31):
Yeah, And so that is the It seems like historians
are leaning towards the some people just ate some bad
food for a while because some stores went bad.
Speaker 3 (43:42):
And the moral of the story is the great African
American proverb, wash your chicken.
Speaker 1 (43:48):
Yeah, well, I.
Speaker 2 (43:51):
Know scientifically you're not supposed to, but.
Speaker 5 (43:53):
Wash your chicken, wash your rice.
Speaker 2 (43:55):
Wash your chicken, wash your rice. Anyway, what were you saying? No?
Speaker 1 (43:58):
No, okay, So but it seems likely just trace the
story of Mackindal by this other, this new presentation of
it is that up until the point he's in maroon
were more or less all in the same page. He
walks into the mountains and then he kind of just
starts a cult. He has a fairly absentee owner, so
he can kind of just walk around pretending to be
(44:19):
a free black man. I think his owner's usually out
to sea, because like the wife, the new husband is
like off to see or whatever. He has a little
spot in the mountains and he has followers living there
of a religious tradition that derives from Congo practices that
are not Vodu. In particular, he makes it, distributes charms,
get called Mackandal's, and almost everyone coming from these traditions,
(44:43):
as I read it, at least was carrying some kind
of charmer fetish at this point, like a lot of
different practices had you do this, but these ones were
meant to be different. These ones were considered alive. They
had to be fed and such. The mock and dolls
were made of bone fragments from a baptized child taken
from a graveyard, mixed with other stuff like grated plantain
(45:03):
root and soot from a cooking pot, communion bread wrapped
up with a little lead cross. The missionaries were giving
everyone lead crosses, so they had a lot of them. Yeah,
and he would give you a mac and doll and
he'd say, now you're not allowed to eat beans or
fresh meat except for poultry, and you can't drink wine
and if you do, your macandal will stop working unless
you atone. Some of this seems like food safety stuff, right, Yeah,
(45:28):
some of it might have been. You know, a lot
of different religions have been like, oh, we got to
come up with some way to get people to stop drinking.
Speaker 2 (45:33):
So that yeah, people, yeah, start.
Speaker 1 (45:36):
Acting right or whatever. Some of the stuff around the
religious practices I'm more skeptical about, just because they raise
my red flags of like, well, I'm about to tell
you that they worship the literal devil in the second
and that's the part that raises the leg Did they Yeah,
I don't know. In that same way that like people
are always like, oh, these kids worship the devil, and
(45:56):
I'm like, I bet some of them.
Speaker 2 (45:57):
Did.
Speaker 1 (45:58):
I have friends who do? Like no, Yeah, you know,
there's some politics in what he's doing because in the
Congolese tradition, he's from healing people meant healing. The land
illness was caused by bad social relations, and so it's
like this is a sick place because of all this
stuff is happening. He seemed fairly legitimate about like he
also seemed to be actually a good healer and people
(46:20):
will come to him from all over and stuff. And
when I say that it was a cult, I'm claiming
it as distinct from Votu, which was not a cult.
And it seems that his ceremonies started with cursing both
white people and anyone who wasn't yet initiated who was black,
So like everyone who's not with us is bad or whatever,
and that's the where I'm like, if that's true, it's
kind of culty.
Speaker 2 (46:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (46:41):
They theoretically had a cut called the Devil's Hut that
had the largest mocand doll of them all in it.
They also worshiped God. It wasn't a like, you know, literally,
it was kind of a like, ah, you Christians are
forcing us to do this shit, and you got God
and the devil or whatever, they're both fine.
Speaker 2 (46:57):
Put them on the shelf. It's fine.
Speaker 1 (46:58):
Yeah, this is is the largest macandall of them all
the size of a child. And they would worship it
and then say there's nothing in the world greater than
God Satan and after those two Francois macndal. Wow. And
I am afraid of this just being and playing into stereotypes,
But it seems to be being presented as a as
a historical way of looking at a thing that happened,
(47:20):
and it overall is it's not coming from a position
of like, oh and those wacky you know, devil worshipers
or whatever. He helped a lot of people. He formed
a little counter society outside of slave society. Also again
you're like, even if you're like, ah, it's a little weird,
like the other thing is slave society.
Speaker 2 (47:36):
Yeah, I don't know, man, I'm gonna go.
Speaker 3 (47:38):
I think i'd I'd take my chances with the with
the weird kulti voodoo then.
Speaker 2 (47:42):
To continue to be a slave.
Speaker 1 (47:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (47:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:45):
And he's basically a service magician. He is, you know,
present in basically every society throughout history as you have
the person who performs divination and healing and stuff. The
main thing the book I read didn't call him a
cult leader. That's my interpretation of what I read. Yeah,
they called them a diviner, and that seems very likely.
And a service magician is contrasted from witchcraft. Witchcraft in
(48:10):
this context, not Haitian context, but the context of like
talking about pre modern magic whatever. Witchcraft is like magic
that does stuff I don't want it to. So witchcraft
is the like poison your crops and kill your cattle
and make you unfertile and like, you know, and service
magicians including Macandahl regularly work to counter witchcraft. So among
(48:32):
his like charms and stuff is he'd be like, well,
I can tell you who is poisoning you, you know,
I can. I can divine who has cursed you, right, okay.
And it was actually this particular task, the figuring out
who poisoned someone that got him killed because people were
dying a bunch of bad food at the time, or
(48:54):
possibly being poisoned. I don't know, but probably mostly the
supplies had gone bad, and there's this mass hysteria and
colonial authorities are convinced that it is evil African magic
killing everyone. And so before they got to him, they
rounded up a bunch of other like suspected poisoners in
a very witchcraft trial way where they're like you grab
one person, you torture them, and they're like, ah, my
friends made me do it and they name them and
(49:14):
then they go get them and you torture them and yeah,
you know. And so they were already afraid of the
big evil poison plot to kill all the white people,
and the coffee plantations have been creeping up the mountains
and it was more people from Congo, and so that
was like one of the communities he was working within,
and they had their big December dance, their work party,
(49:37):
and they invited him because they needed him to help
divine who had been poisoning them. But then a little
boy went and told the white people that there was
a poisoner at the dance.
Speaker 2 (49:47):
Damn it, I know, I know.
Speaker 1 (49:50):
Two colonists grabbed him and they didn't have any shackles,
so they hog tied him and then tied him to
a fifty pound weight. What And then yeah, because speaking
of the way that you Europeans would like murder people
like the whole like all of the terrible devices that
blacksmiths came up with to do to enslave people like.
Speaker 2 (50:11):
But like why though, yeah why yeah? Yeah.
Speaker 1 (50:16):
I remember the first time I watched a movie about
a Maroon community and it had one of the people
in one of those like net cages with spikes pointing
to your neck so your head has to stay up right.
And I remember like seeing that in the movie and
I was like, dear Internet, and the Internet was like yeah, no, no, yeah,
people used to do that to people, Like yeah, yeah
for real, Yeah that was the thing. Imagine living in
(50:38):
that society and being like this.
Speaker 2 (50:39):
Is all right, you know, and and that you're on
the right side of history. Yeah, Like how do you
fucking sleep at night?
Speaker 4 (50:47):
How?
Speaker 2 (50:47):
How do you think of it? Like we do? Do
you just come to you in a drink? Like how
you think of it?
Speaker 1 (50:53):
Yeah, you're clearly enjoying the art form of your work.
And I yeah, I like don't traditionally believe in hell
is a concept, but I might now you.
Speaker 2 (51:01):
Know, no fam that came out of it. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (51:06):
So he has a fifty pound weight tied to him.
They hold him captive. After his guards fall asleep, he
crawls out the window, even though he's still tied up,
and he is like running through the fields, probably dragging
his fifty pound weight. They catch him with dogs. They
arrest him. He's held in jail. In court, he denied
making poisons. He did name some of his followers. I
(51:27):
assume he's being tortured, and these are all they're all arrested,
and I think most of them are killed too. There's
almost no records of the trial. Instead of it being
like the actual records of the trial, it's the like
side notes, like the recollect like the people talking about
it or whatever. There's no evidence brought against him for poisoning,
even though that's what he's killed for. Oh, he was convicted,
(51:51):
and among his many things was seducing slaves and corrupting people.
He was also the reason they burned him at the
stake is that what he did was sacrilegious because he
crosses in his charms, even though he's from a place
that's been using crosses in their charms for two hundred
and fifty years, because the Congo has had Christians there
for a really long time, for a long time.
Speaker 4 (52:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (52:09):
Yeah, and he was accused of trying to start a
race war. The only theoretical thing that possibly in any
way backs us up. Though again like literally, if all
the white people have decided that all the blood whatever, anyway,
I don't need to justify this. Yeah. The only thing
that he might have done that said something like that
is that. There's a one follower said that he performed
(52:32):
a magic trick once where he took a he turned
a cloth from olive to white to black, like kind
of just like handkerchief magic, you know, oh yeah, yeah,
which is really charming. And when he did it, he
used it to represent who rules the island. Olive was
the indigenous people, white for the French, and black for
the people who would rule. And this was like, see,
(52:54):
he's going to have a race war like again whatever.
Speaker 4 (52:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (52:58):
By the end of the day, the I just handed
down the sentence and he was burned at the stake
the same day.
Speaker 2 (53:04):
Damn.
Speaker 1 (53:05):
While he was on fire, he pulled his shackles out
from the post and ran for it. He was recaptured
and tied up again. And then I don't have any
reason to say that he didn't turn into a mosquito
and killed all the invading armies, because it could be,
you know. And that is uh the end of part two.
I remember four partner in the Haitian Revolution.
Speaker 2 (53:27):
Francois getting us to thirty years before the Haitian Revolution.
Speaker 3 (53:30):
Shall stiff got to the revolution. I'm just no Haiti
still got slaves right now? If you're keeping up. There's
still still slaves in Haiti right now.
Speaker 1 (53:39):
I've tried a couple of times to keep up with
what's going on in Haiti, and it is I don't
want to be like gets messy and so therefore I
don't understand it. But I just like literally haven't really
come to understand it yet.
Speaker 3 (53:47):
Oh right now, it's it's it's like it's the Warriors movie.
Speaker 2 (53:51):
It's gangs.
Speaker 3 (53:52):
Yeah, and even the guy that's the prime minister, his
name is Barbecue no Less.
Speaker 1 (53:56):
Yeah, that's what I remember from Barbecue Gang Gang.
Speaker 3 (54:00):
Yeah, I mean, yeah, like it's pretty The first crash
out was a few years back, when you know, the
prime minister left. They just ran him out and he
was he was somewhere in Columbia, and I think that
that was like an they put a hit out on you.
Speaker 2 (54:16):
Yeah, you know, but like, yeah.
Speaker 3 (54:18):
I say this with all like a complete straight face.
I'm like, yeah, no, that's it's.
Speaker 2 (54:23):
Yeah, it is not safe in Port de Prince right now.
Speaker 1 (54:26):
Yeah, no, yeah, it doesn't surprise me. And then just
I mean watching what I don't know, hundreds of years
of just like every other country in the world, just
trying to fuck you.
Speaker 3 (54:39):
I just the only like, imagine you're a kid. You're
playing djenga in just like every ten minutes, somebody, your
brother's friend just comes and kicks the shit out of
the whole thing. Yeah, and you're just like, well, damn.
And then you try to do it again, somebody else
just kicks the shit out of the whole thing.
Speaker 2 (54:56):
Yeah, And then they're all looking at you like, how
come you don't know how to do janga? Yeah, you're
so bad at this. It keeps falling over.
Speaker 3 (55:02):
Suck it Jenga. And I'm like, well, if you didn't
kick it, yeah, might be able to figure some shit out.
Speaker 2 (55:08):
Yeah. And then you just took half the bricks.
Speaker 1 (55:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (55:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (55:13):
The more you learn about how wealth is just systemically
stripped from marginalized communities, including in the United States, just
just which means that they're producing wealth, Like they wouldn't
put a chain store into a ghetto if it didn't
give them money, if there wasn't wealth being produced in
(55:33):
that community, and they want it for themselves instead.
Speaker 2 (55:37):
Thank you that.
Speaker 3 (55:38):
Thank thank you for saying that, because I'm like, why, like,
why why is Africa?
Speaker 1 (55:44):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (55:44):
Just farmed and raped and drained and tapped dry by
Europe and the rest of the Western ass because it's
got shipp.
Speaker 2 (55:51):
Yeah, because it's rich as fuck. Yeah, it's rich as fuck.
That's why. Yeah. Yeah, damn man.
Speaker 1 (55:58):
Well on that pleasant.
Speaker 2 (56:00):
Hey, at least they're about to have the most successful
slaver vault in history.
Speaker 3 (56:03):
I was like, does the cool part start? Yeah, Okay,
that's what I signed up for.
Speaker 1 (56:07):
No, I know, and and what I thought he was
just this poisoner guy. That's why I was like, and
then I'm gonna leave on a high note because he's
gonna do this amazing thing. And then I'm like, but
he still did this amazing thing. You know. It's like
leading a like both free and unfree people into like
healing and like community in the mountains. Like yeah, for years,
(56:28):
you know, he was for a decade he was up
there as a maroon and again in the Saw Factory.
I've never seen the Saw movies. Is going to be
really obvious to everyone who has is I keep using
this discomparison. Yeah, it's just my Like, it's literally like
the most horror I can horror imagine, because the reason
I don't watch it is because it's too.
Speaker 3 (56:46):
Hard, you know, Yeah, I feel you, but no, I think, yeah,
I think the yeah, like the messiness that we talked
about earlier, you know, is something to me. But I
think there is something to be said about like just
myth making, and like sometimes that like myth making becomes
like you said, that becomes the truth. Yeah, you know,
and that's like and which is you know, us as
(57:08):
people who enjoy history, ends up that actually ends up
being more true than what happened. Yeah, because because the
myth making is impact, Yes, is the impact and how
that affected the rest of the world that you were in.
It created a reality that existed because of this myth.
(57:28):
So I think so to that point, yeah, the myth
is also something that should be understood in its historical context.
Speaker 1 (57:37):
Yeah. And even the fact that like how deeply Haiti
the Haitian Revolution scared all of the like white colonial forces. Yeah,
like and then they all punished them for it. But
it's like that's how intense the impact was. Even though
it like yeah, kind of it's still better than not
having had that revolution, right, but like sure it kind
(57:58):
of didn't work out great for them, you know, yeah,
the white lash, but like but someone's got to do something,
you know. And also like it really did spur on
so much of US abolitionism, even.
Speaker 2 (58:11):
Though it like absolutely yeah, and there.
Speaker 1 (58:14):
Was people like going from the US over to Haiti
and there was like people planning to invade the US.
There was like, I can't remember his name, there's an
abolitionist as a black man and self emancipated and then
like went to Haiti to raise an army and was
going to invade.
Speaker 2 (58:29):
But then I think it was gonna come back.
Speaker 4 (58:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (58:31):
I think then that the Civil War kicked off while
he was getting ready for that, and so he was like,
all right, let's go do that instead, you know.
Speaker 2 (58:37):
Yeah, but yeah, it's.
Speaker 1 (58:39):
So impactful anyway, whatever, we'll keep talking about how it's impactful.
As we talked about what happened.
Speaker 2 (58:43):
I can't wait, man.
Speaker 3 (58:44):
Yeah, but anyway, the politics will PROP. I'm gonna go
straight to the to the ads. Hell, yeah, to the
plug politics will prop. Yeah. You can go to prop
hip hop dot com to get I got some shows
coming up, like uh Dope on it LA with Sa
Rock if you know indie hip hop rhyme sayers, she's
one of the dopest MC's on Earth. Sunset Rooftop Flyers
(59:08):
on the website, terror Form the book out, please please
support some poetry, and yeah, in the podcast is still
kicking in, screaming and it's visual now.
Speaker 1 (59:20):
Also hell yeah, And if anyone who doesn't listen to it,
it is just genuinely one of the best like ways
of understanding what's happening in modern politics that I've ever heard.
Speaker 2 (59:30):
So I really appreciate that people should listen to it.
Speaker 1 (59:32):
And if you want to pay more attention to what
I do, Oh, I have a book coming out. I
say that all the time. Yes, I write a lot
of books.
Speaker 2 (59:41):
You write a lot of books.
Speaker 1 (59:42):
But first I'm going to cough, but then Rory's gonna
cut out my coffee, and so I'm just gonna say
I'm gonna cough, but then there's not gonna be a cough,
and you' all are gonna be very confused. But I
have a book called The Immortal Choir Holds Every Voice
is the third book in the Danielle Kine series, and
we'll be kickstarting it in March. And part of that
is that there will be audiobook version of the first
two books too, And if you want to hear the
(01:00:02):
first book, I read it to Robert Evans on this
very podcast. If you go back far enough, if you
go back in Cool Zone Media book Club, Let's go
and yeah, that's a that's about it.
Speaker 3 (01:00:14):
Yeah, I think that you're like this is no gas,
Like I'm not blowing smoke. I like, you're one of
the smartest humans I know. And it's and it has
a lot to do with like your the breadth of
like where your intelligence lies is like I said, it's
like it's in an area that like.
Speaker 2 (01:00:34):
I just skipped. I was like, I'm skipping that chapter,
you know, But it ended up.
Speaker 3 (01:00:39):
Being such like connective tissue for a lot of the
stuff I did end up like spending most of my
time understanding. So like I one reason why I enjoy
the show, but like another reason like hearing you say like, no,
no props, Prop's got a good show, Like it's like
heang like that.
Speaker 2 (01:00:57):
Actually I really take that as a compliment, like for.
Speaker 1 (01:01:00):
I really appreciate it, and I appreciate it. I don't know,
I really like Cool Zone Media and I am proud
to be part of it.
Speaker 3 (01:01:07):
The love Fest. Yeah, we are the Wu Tang of podcasts.
Speaker 1 (01:01:14):
Anyway, We will talk to you all next week with
more about the Haitian Revolution.
Speaker 2 (01:01:18):
Please go.
Speaker 4 (01:01:24):
Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production of
cool Zone Media.
Speaker 5 (01:01:28):
For more podcasts on cool Zone Media, visit our website.
Speaker 4 (01:01:31):
Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever
Speaker 5 (01:01:36):
You get your podcasts.
Host
Margaret Killjoy
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