May 28, 2025 • 38 mins
Former WNBA President and Upshot League founder Donna Orender joins Laura to talk about why she’s launching a new pro league—and why the moment demands it. She shares lessons from her time leading the W, the structural gaps she’s aiming to fill, and what it takes to create community-rooted franchises that are more than just teams—they’re assets.
00:29 Meet Donna Orender
02:05 Donna's Early Love for Basketball
06:51 Building Belief and Overcoming Obstacles
10:40 The Hardest Job: Transforming the WNBA
17:00 Reflecting on Success and Future Endeavors
21:29 Introducing the Upshot League
24:18 Opportunities for Athletes and Coaches
27:45 Fundraising and Selling the Vision
34:45 Naming the Upshot League
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
And it's like, Okay, your noise, and I'm shutting you out.
Because when I would go to the arenas, there were
these beautiful families of girls and boys and dads and
moms and single women and all these people, and they
loved it. And I felt like, as long as I
can be in that arena and feel and understand the
promise of what we can deliver, we were shutting out
(00:22):
the noise. We were going to focus, we were going
to sell, and we were going to make it happen
when people said we couldn't.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Welcome back to Courtside, where we break down the business
of women's sports with the people who built it, challenged
it and changed it for the better. I'm your host,
Laura Crenzi. Today's episode is a masterclass in legacy, leadership
and looking forward. My guest is Donna Ranger, former president
of the WNBA, longtime sports exec and now co founder
(00:49):
of the Upshot League.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
If you're in the world of women's sports.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
You already know Donna's name, and if you don't, you've
definitely felt the ripple effects of her work. In this conversation,
Donna and I talk about the early days of building
credibility for the w how she navigated the male dominated
world of sports media and leadership, and why the next
generation of athletes and fans need more than just opportunity.
They need infrastructure, investment, and belief from boardrooms to ball courts.
(01:16):
Donna has spent decades pushing for equity, not just in headlines,
but in budgets, decision making, and the systems that sustain
that change.
Speaker 3 (01:23):
And she's still at it.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
So if you've ever wondered what it takes then not
only survive but lead in the business of women's sports,
stay with us. Donna Orender is in the building. Let's
get into it. Donna, welcome the court side.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
Hey, Laura, how you doing.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
I'm doing well, and it's so so great to have you.
I vividly remember the first time I met you, and
your energy came right through the phone in a way
that I'm like, calv I never met this woman before.
So it's been fast and furious since, and you've obviously
been up to a lot. But I wanted to take
us back to the beginning, especially for so many of
our listeners who arguably are relatively new to the version
(01:59):
of women's bat basketball that we've seen today. But you've
seen it through many, many iterations, and so let's start
with the first question, Donna, when did you fall in
love with women's basketball?
Speaker 1 (02:09):
Well, I fell in love with basketball, the game. I
never said it was women's basketball. It's interesting because it
wasn't women's basketball. I fell in love with the boys
were playing at Sleeperway camp and they had the cutest shirts,
said T shirts. They had all colors, and I wanted
a camp knock a mix some colored shirt. And I said,
how do I get to get a shirt? And they said,
we got to play leagues. I said, well, okay, then
(02:30):
I want to play in the league. I thought they
were so old, but there were two teenage young men
who used to take me down to the lower courts
and every single day they would teach me how to
play the game, and I fell in love with it.
Speaker 3 (02:41):
How old are you?
Speaker 1 (02:42):
I was twelve thirteen, probably late now you know we're
putting kids on the court at five or six, right,
But it was really that desire for a colored T shirt.
I will also say I think something I saw early on,
even in high school or junior high did you get
the shirt? Yes, I got many shirts? Was that you
can see how much attention the boys got right, they
(03:04):
were lauded, they were appreciated, they were adored, they were
followed because they played in these leagues. I'm like, wait
a second, I want to play too, Right, there's a
theme I want to play too. And so that's how
it all started. And I absolutely fell in love with
the game. And I'm still absolutely alone with the game.
Speaker 3 (03:22):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
And fast forward, you were there at the precipice when
this famous line talking about I want to play too.
We got next, came to fruition, and really as the
WNBA came to materialize, you were there early on Donna,
helping to drive its growth. How did you determine at
that point when women's sports, obviously as we know it today,
was in such early iteration, very minimal in the way
(03:44):
of investment in infrastructure, why did you say yes to
joining the w at its infancy and wanting to shape
its future.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
First of all, let me just say this, I played
at one of the best programs in the nation at
the time. We made history, played the first women's game
ever in the history of Madison Square Garden of Basketball. Right,
the mecca is the Garden today? And what team was
this it's Queen's College, actually, and our coach is just
about to get at long last, long overdue, but not
be happier. Inducted into the Women's Basketball Hall of Fame
(04:14):
in a couple of weeks.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
Amazing because she was.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Amazing, pioneer, thought leader, pushed us. Her lessons today are
still driving me and I love to tell her that
every time I see her. But you know what, on
the heyday of New York City Basketball women's basketball, you
know the fact that we were there, we got a
lot of press. I knew what it could be. There
were twelve thousand people at the Garden when we played.
I'll never forget Helen Ready singing. It's so much a
(04:38):
part of who I am. But ultimately I ended up
in the business of media and sports, and when the
opportunity came to go back into basketball, I realized that
everything that I was able to accomplish was one because
I was an athlete. Two people poured so much into me.
Even in my business career at the tour, rose to
the highest ranks global business deals, domestic business deals, and
(05:03):
I learned a lot. And so when this opportunity, when
Adam called me and said, hey, would you be interested,
and we'd been friends for a long time by that time.
I felt like a responsibility to pay it forward. I
felt like I had a chance to take everything that
I had learned and apply it in a new environment
and repay perhaps all that I had gained, hopefully growing
(05:26):
up without a lot other than the purest passion of
loving what we did, because that's what we did right.
It was never about the money, although we'll talk about money,
I'm sure it was about the team. It was about
improving your emotional best self. It was about becoming physically
(05:48):
strong and capable all those things, and yes, did you
want people to notice you, cheer for you, show up
for your Yes, right, But that essential passionate essence a
playing sport, A playing I think has stayed with me always.
Speaker 3 (06:05):
You're hitting on two themes.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
One the lessons we learn as an athlete that then
come to serve us later in life. And to the
consistent narrative, we must leave it better than we found it.
I was just doing a panel at a school actually
up in the Bronx this past weekend, and it really
struck me. Somebody asked me, the question is do you
see there being contention between the veterans and you know,
(06:27):
not having made what the college players are making today,
And I said, absolutely not. I said, what I'm seeing
is this absolute sense of community in and around We
must leave it better than we found it, and everybody
absolutely understanding their role and taking those incremental steps, standing
on the shoulders of giants that came before them to
continue to move this thing forward.
Speaker 3 (06:46):
And you literally just said it in.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
Thirty seconds of what I've been experiencing for two years.
But I'd love to drill and donn on what were
those skills or lessons that came back to serve you
and how did they present themselves as you started your
career in the world of sports business.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
I don't know that I knew it then. I knew
no one was going to work harder than me. Somebody
want to work as hard as me, God bless you,
and so that idea and I listened. I came from
a family and my dad was like, you're going to
work hard.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
That's it.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
You're going to do that. Man, We're going to work hard.
So I kind of knew that. But what I also
came to understand was that we have more in ourselves
than we ever come to recognize or realize. And you
know I always say this, I wasn't the fastest, I
didn't jump the highest, right, I was a great shooter.
I was willing to work, and my coach made me
(07:36):
understand that I could pull more out of me than
I thought possible. And it wasn't just on day one
or day five.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
Right.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
I don't know what day it is now in my life,
but to this day, when faced with challenging circumstances, whether
they be a mental, business, leadership skills, or even like
something on a court or competing, I know there's more
in me. And because I have systematically been able to
understand that and demonstrate that, generally I can look at
(08:09):
something say I can figure this out.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
I think there's so many consistencies in whatever iteration or
language any athlete wants to put around it, but the
feeling and the examples are probably consistent. I know I
can relate to that, having played through college and just
understanding that the best coaches teach you so much about
yourself versus instructing you on what to do with it.
And I think that that is such a gift. Let's
(08:32):
pivot to the leave it better than you found it.
So Adam Silver gives you the call, you decide to
join the W I did what did you inherit when
you said yes? And what was the first order of
business on Donna's watch?
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Okay, Well, first of all, I just want to say
I just got this cup and I noticed what it
says on it.
Speaker 3 (08:48):
See, oh I love that says dream.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
With some lipstick on it. Perfect.
Speaker 3 (08:53):
Perfect.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
The funniest thing is I'm a mom at this time.
I'm married, I have two young kids. I pack up
my bags and I go to New York, which is
obviously where I'm from. I say obvious because most people
can pick that up from my very gentle accent, you.
Speaker 3 (09:07):
And me both.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
And I actually am staying in some apartment, which was awful.
But the first thing I actually remember was I put
my stuff in my office and got on a plane
and went to the Women's Final four. And I can't remember.
I want to say it was in Ohio. I'd have
to look it up, I should. And I walk into
this carpeted ballroom, which was awful. I mean, the carpet smelled.
(09:32):
They had peanuts on the counter of the bar, and
I'm like, oh my god, what did I do?
Speaker 2 (09:39):
What year is this two thousand and five, two thousand
and five, twenty years ago?
Speaker 1 (09:44):
Yeah, And I look and I'm like, yeah, I'm coming
out of the world of golf, right, and you know,
money is everywhere and it's pristine, and you know, I'm
traveling all over the world, whether I'm in a Hawaii
or Scotland or whatever. And I walk into this really
seedy ballroom. I'm thinking, wow, wow, And I knew there
(10:05):
was a lot of work to do, right, I just
knew there was a lot of work to do, and
we were going to do it. And that's okay, right,
that was okay. But I'll never forget that feeling like,
oh my god, what did I do? I left a
very comfortable world to a world that really is on
this teetering edge of not where they were going to
go because there was a tremendous amount of passion to
be better, but the lack of recognition and resource and
(10:30):
celebration was just not there.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
So some people would have ran right back out to
the West Side Highway. But I have a feeling you
dug in.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
We dug in deep, dug in deep.
Speaker 3 (10:40):
Where do you even begin?
Speaker 2 (10:41):
When you inherit something like this knowing what its potential
could be, but the lack, obviously, as you alluded to,
resources that were at hand.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
I came in with a tremendous belief that we could
be successful in spite of every single day people telling
me otherwise, which, by the way, is not exactly the
best environment to be working in, but what the heck,
you know, It's one of the other great lessons I've
talked about in life that I've learned, thank you, David Stern,
which how not to hear no You learn to focus
and shut out the noise. Focus and shut out the noise.
(11:10):
It took a while, but I knew that I had
to build a belief system, and so basically I hit
the road and listen. I had my story in terms
of where I came from in the basketball world, tried
and tested, and what I thought we could do, and
I just went from market to market to market to
market and found the people that were believers. I did
(11:31):
have to understand what was happening, like what was connected
and what was not, and I was struck by how
much when I got there was unconnected. I used to
say that it wasn't like the plugs weren't in the wall.
It was like the wires had been removed. So I
had to rewire and reconnect. And there were a lot
of people who wanted to do that with me, like Bernard,
(11:51):
she wanted to do it. There's a lot of people.
There were a lot of people in market. So if
you start to build all those believers, then you realize
you have a population of believers that you can and
surf the wave that you're going to help build and create.
And I'm not saying that that's easy. It was hard
because it's still on a small population. When you build
that against sports radio that was still telling us, you know,
(12:12):
you have nerved believe that you even have the right
to exist, And it's like, okay, your noise, and I'm
shutting you out. Because when I would go to the arenas,
there were these beautiful families of girls and boys and
dads and moms and single women and all these people
and they loved it. And I felt like, as long
as I can be in that arena and feel and
(12:33):
understand the promise of what we can deliver, we were
shutting out the noise. We were going to focus, we
were going to sell, and we were going to make
it happen when people said we couldn't.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
I love everything that you're describing, right, Like, if I
close my eyes, that could be running a league, or
that be getting ready for a new season with a
new team. Because what sports teaches you, right, especially the
greatest leaders and the greatest captains, is having to get
people on board to achieve a common goal despite your experience,
despite who's a leader, who's a role player. I mean
(13:15):
you could go down the list that ability to evangelize
and galvanize your team to get focused, get in the zone,
and compete. So you get the believers, You've got people
in the stands. Take us through your journey in this
role of one of the greatest leagues, professional women's sports
leagues in the world.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
First things first, you've got to build your belief system, right.
So Sports Business Journal is like, okay, what is the
first league that's going to go out of business? And
of course the WNBA gets picked. So I call up
the guy at the time and I was not calm.
I literally was not calm at all.
Speaker 3 (13:51):
I don't believe you.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
I yelled at him and I said, what are you
really I am working, We are working art butts off, right,
you're gonna put something else out there like that, based
on what tell me, based on what can you give us.
I mean, there's nothing you're doing to help us out there,
because it's funny, like, there are people that will lead,
but there are many more people that will let others
(14:12):
lead and then they will follow. And I had to
make sure that our leaders felt comfortable in leading, and
that turned out being companies like Discover. By met Margo
Georgiatis so many years ago. She was amazing. We met
on a panel. She stepped up with a million dollars.
It was like Kevin Conroy who stepped up with like
three million dollars over multiple years at AOL. When my
internal people said, oh, they'll never do it, and it's funny.
(14:36):
Were friends to this day. He called me the other
day and we were laughing about that exact thing, right
because they no one will do it, Oh Toyota will
not do it. And so not only did we have
external naysayers, we had internal naysayers. And so again it
was really hard to be able to say, hey, stay focused,
you do what you want over here, we are going forward.
(14:59):
And it took about three years literally before the like
when are you folding mantra stopped because listen, public companies
don't want it, like if you're going away, we're not
going to invest. I had to create an environment with
a lot a lot of other people of creating a
safety place say no, no, we're staying here. And it happened.
Speaker 3 (15:17):
When did you know, Donna? When did you know? You
had something?
Speaker 1 (15:21):
Probably about three years in which kind of matches the
business cycle of my experience, which is first year you
figure out, like where the bathrooms are. A second year
you start to put everything in place. Third year you
kind of get it and like everything's going to start happening.
And I felt like in our third year we were
getting there, we were making progress, and it was by
no means easy, and I'm not going to pretend that
(15:42):
it was. It was freaking hard. Like I always say,
it was the hardest job I ever had, But it
was the best job I ever had. It was so meaningful.
It was a mission, right, It was a mission to
do the right thing. And it's funny, but what I
feel myself saying now is like what I'm saying I
mean now about the w I feel like I'm saying
now about the Upshot League, which was. It was the
right thing to do for all the right reasons, and
(16:04):
that's why that's one of the things I loved about David.
He did it for the right reasons, and the right
reasons matter.
Speaker 3 (16:09):
Right.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
It's not like we're a charity. It's a social imperative.
Speaker 3 (16:12):
And it's good business. It's great business totally anyway.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
So I felt like we got to that point and
our sales teams around the country were kind of happening,
and nationally were happening. And listen, doesn't mean that they
were all in good financial shape, but we had a
foundation to build on and there were a lot of
great owners who really believed that, and they were willing
to put themselves out there year after year and invest.
(16:38):
And it's funny when people say today, oh, look at
the prices of these teams, Well, guess what, they would
not be anywhere near where they would if the Michael
Alters or the Jinny Gilders, or the Lisa Brummels or
Sheila Johnson's and all of them did what they did.
They invested a long time to make this happen. I
think we all owe them a detogratude for sure.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Fast forward twenty years now, right, We're in this incredible
hockey stick growth moment that's happening.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
Rome wasn't built in a day.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
And one of my favorite conversations at Bubbles time to
time is this feeling as though it happened overnight, But
the reality is, to your point in some of the
investors you just named laid this groundwork two plus decades
ago and have been building. And when you look at
the trajectory in comparison to the men's, well, yes, then
you could argue hockey stick growth absolutely in terms of
the time it's taken to expedite. But when you look
(17:31):
at it now, knowing that it was the hardest job
you ever had to see where it is today, how
does it make you feel?
Speaker 1 (17:38):
I just want to do a happy dance wherever I am,
I'll just stop.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
And do it. You can do it right now if
you want to just do.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
A happy dance, I mean I am elated. It feels
in it so many ways. It's validating across the board
for women, not only in sport, but across the entire
population of women to see women excellence recognized not only
(18:06):
in the court of competition, but in the economic world,
right in the world of public opinion, all of these
different ways that give us our cues as human beings
about what is good and what is bad. We're finally
taggling on the good side much more on any other side.
And I think that's so important Beyond being athletes. I
(18:30):
think it's important for the world who we are.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
I often talk about, you know, sport is just the vehicle,
especially when you're talking to commercial partners who get hung
up on where women's sport is today.
Speaker 3 (18:42):
For me, it's just the vehicle, right.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
It's entertainment, it's community gathering, it's all of these things.
But at the end of the day, the outputs are
so much greater than the wins and losses column. You
talked earlier about leaving it better than you found it
and really digging your heels in. You're going again. You
starting another league called the Upshot.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
I'm so excited about this, But I just wanted to
say two things. One I'll never forget. During my time
at the w and my husband we both alternated commuting,
like he commuted to New York, and then when my
kids went back home there, my kids came to New
York for two years, and then we went back and
I remember, you know, he'd come to the games and
he looked around and he goes, you know, you can
never quit. And I looked at him. I said, who
do you think I am? He goes, I know who
(19:24):
you are, but I'm just saying this, and he said
it's just too important, like he just saw what it
all meant. And then earlier I quoted all these owners.
I do want to give credit to the NBA owner.
It's like Glenn Taylor in Minnesota, Like those days early
on were so hard. There were content likes do we
stay in? Do we wrap it up? We've put in
so much money? And he hung in and was rewarded
with four championships. Of course now that their team just
(19:45):
changed ownership. But Glenn, I mean he was also the
chair of the NBA for a while, the com Board
of Governors. There are so many men like him. I mean,
Jim Dolan kept the Liberty for a while and then
he didn't, but again invested a lot of money early
on to create the brand of the Liberty. So many
people invested, and I just want to make sure it
was across the board. So going back to your question,
(20:06):
going again.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
First, where do you find the energy? Because this is
a massive undertaking to start a league in this market
and this climate to say I gotta go, I gotta
do this again.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
Well, first of all, the energy is generated from the
work itself, right, the pursuit of it is the right
thing to do at the right time, for the right reasons,
and it's the right business model. And if you can
line all that up, Laura, you know you're a various
STUDI businesswoman. You line that up, you get the right partners.
(20:38):
And I have the most amazing partners. Like listen, I
went around the country both trying to sell and move franchises.
I know what it takes to make a good, solid franchise,
and it's more than that because I feel like we
are building community assets around women. It's no different I
felt about the WNBA, which was we wanted to build
(20:58):
a sustainable, vibe, liable business around strong women at a
time when people were a little scared of strong women.
They might still be a little scared strong women, but
they're not. They're embracing their daughters, their nieces, their cousins,
all of those young women, and they want to get
behind and cheer them on now in their communities. And
so I do believe sport is a tremendous community asset,
and we're going to bring them elite athletes, affordable entertainment.
(21:23):
We're going to pour in at every level in terms
of development. You know, we call it the Upshot League.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
What is the Upshot League? In a nutshell? Give me
the Donna Elevator pitch.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
All right? The Upshot League is about the uptick and
the upbeat of bringing great sport women's professional basketball to
communities across America. At the end of the day, it's
about upping everyone shot, from the players on the court,
to the coaching staff, to the front office, and to
the community itself. I'm proud to be the founder of
(21:54):
Generation W and Generation WOW, which is Women's Leadership Are
Girls per program is all about the positive and the possible.
It's about education, connection, inspiration, and leadership mentorship. And we're
going to bring that programming in for our fan base
as well. And so it's the idea of providing opportunity.
Speaker 3 (22:13):
Talk about the model.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
This is why I'm so excited about it. You need
good business partners. Andy Kaufman and Zawyer Sports are the
best business partners. They're currently owners and operating super successfully
with great results over eight years. So it's demonstrable people
can see it. Each team at every market that we're
launching in already has a team on the ground. They've
been there for a couple of years, so they're already
in with all of the companies they're selling tickets. So
(22:37):
I'll give you an example. We go to Savannah and
they have the savannahost Pirates. We're going to come in
as the Savannah I can't tell you what it is.
We're working at it right now.
Speaker 3 (22:45):
I thought I was getting breaking news there.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and we're going to hold off on
that one. Won't be fair to the mayor. Do a
press conference with the mayor and he says, you know,
we sell out the Ghost Pirates seventy four hundred tickets
beautiful arena every game. I'm telling you, we love basketball here.
We're going to do same thing for here. So the
community is already in love with the product that's there
and they want to expand it into women's basketball. It
couldn't be better. I had two sponsors while I was
(23:07):
at the press conference come up to me and say, hey,
love what you're doing. We want to sponsor you. I'm like, great,
we'll have our sponsors team to call you and we're
already on our way. I mean crazy, right, Crazy.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
Not really because when you look at the get in price, right,
and obviously you're building something that new from scratch, people
want to be involved, right for all the reasons that
you alluded to earlier, And so it's not crazy to me,
especially at the local level, to hear businesses watching what's
happening right and the ability to participate in a way
that they might not be able to for a myriad
(23:39):
of reasons at different leagues and different levels, because of
whether it's the get and price, it might be exclusivity,
it might not serve the region in which their business
is headquartered, or super serve their audience or customer. So
it's not crazy to me. And you talk about opportunity,
it's like we need more not just for the sport,
but for commercial partners who want to participate. Talk about
(24:19):
how upshot is part of and fits in or integrates
into the landscape of women's basketball in the US, so
people know how to think about it.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
Well, it's interesting, you know, I have a son who
played international basketball overseas. I spent a lot of time
traveling back and forth, and it gave me a great
chance to really see the club system in Europe, in
the Middle East, et cetera. They have all these leagues
and all these communities that participate. We don't have that here.
We have college and then you have the WNBA, and
there's nothing really in between that. And I've heard a
lot of talk from WNBA coaches and owners and gms
(24:50):
they really need a place. So if you look, they
think it was a Chicago Sky last year they were
down to six or seven players, They had a hardship.
There's no place for them to redevelop or retrain their athletes.
So there is a real need in the professional marketplace
to have a place where players and coaches can be developed,
they can be seen, and they can be here in America.
And that's why I call us to the Opportunity League
(25:11):
because in terms of talent, I ran the numbers for
the last three drafts, not the most recent one. One
hundred and eight players were drafted. Of those one hundred
and eight, twenty made a roster the first week. Can't
tell you how many were there at the end. We're
looking right now because we're monitoring at the first round
draft choices who are now being cut. There is so
(25:31):
much talent.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
For this season from this season. It's all over the press.
It's all a press and in people's social media, they're like,
we need more spots.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
We need more spots. So we're going to provide those spots.
We're going to provide the opportunity for these athletes to
skill up, be seen, but also get a professional job
in a market that's going to love them and have
that experience. And so in and of itself, Upshot's going
to provide great value to Jacksonville, Charlotte, Greensboro, Savannah. I
(26:00):
can see honestly thirty to forty teams in this league,
and I can see it having international extensions. We don't
want to get ahead of ourselves. We want to deliver
our success and that's what we're going to do, and
we'll show it by our ticket sales and our sponsorships.
But you would appreciate this, Laura, in particular. Our model
goals are very conservatively written and they're certainly achievable, and
(26:23):
those model will make sure that we not only break even,
but can move into the black as quickly as possible.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
Which on leads to expansion. Proof of concept, go go,
oh yeah, exactly. Can you talk about how you're picking
the markets, because you just rattled off a few that would,
in media terms not necessarily be your top tier selections.
How are you deciding where and how you're showing up
in the cities that you just named them beyond.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
Well, first of all, I'll take great exception because I'm
in Jacksonville and we are world class. And one of
the reasons where in Jacksonville is we really did fight hard,
and that's how Andy and I originally got together. He
had an independent pursuit of a team I did. We
saw each other and met each other, fell in love,
and we said, let's partner. I really feel that WNBA
would match most any market, honestly in terms of what
(27:09):
we can deliver. But I understand they might not think
that way. And I also know what the kind of
ranking is in terms of where they're going, So we said,
what the heck? So when we say there, maybe they
don't want us right now will prove to be great,
But that doesn't mean this the people of this DMA,
which is a million plus, shouldn't have the benefit of
(27:29):
professional sports and elite women's professional basketball. Again, I go
back to an opportunity league. I don't want to be
ranked in an old world view of ranking.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
I appreciate that. I'm a big fan of disrupting legacy systems.
So you're in the right company for that. You're in
the process of fundraising. I've had this conversation repeated. It
was just at this incredible event called Female Founder's Day
that's put on Rebecca Minkoff and Ally Wyatt Hole and
the Female Founder's Collective, and I got asked a question
in a conversation that I was a part of a
(27:59):
panel on, and somebody said, like, how do you frame
a sell like a product and walk away feeling like
you've closed the deal? And I was like, I don't
sell a product or service. I sell a conviction. As
I'm talking to you, this believability. You've been there, you
have the experience, you understand the model, you certainly understand
the fan and the market. I'm a big believer and
(28:20):
we are now moving from this era of necessity to
era of opportunity. What are your projections for your one?
How will this be received and how does it differentiate
in some of these markets, Savannah Jacksonville, that you're talking
about that haven't even had the opportunity to participate.
Speaker 3 (28:38):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
First of all, let's start with doing differently. Our first
hire was, I think, a statement to the marketplace. We
hired one of the most celebrated, accomplished on court athletes
as well as off court athletes, TODJ McWilliams Franklin. She's
worked the last five years at the WNBA in player services.
You worked at the NBA. She's a two time WNBA champion,
(29:01):
she's a world champion. I mean, she is just the best.
And we were talking the other day. It's funny. I'm
looking at my cup dream here and I said, Taj,
I do not want us in any way to be
encumbered or inhibited by what is And I'm not saying
what is is bad. I just want us to feel
free to think what can be that? And you and
(29:21):
I grew up playing a little different times, of course,
But what is in your heart in your brain that
says we should try it this way because we can
do that? Oh, Donna, I love this, and I said
I do too, So what is it? What is it?
I don't want to have to recreate another model. I
know the fundamentals of our model and I know the
(29:43):
fundamentals of what we're going to need to make the
money and show the market that we're a great investment.
I don't worry about that as much. I said, I
don't mind making errors of CO mission. I don't want
to make them, But I don't want to make the
errors of O mission. What did we not think through
that we should have? And so that's where we are
(30:04):
right now. So if anybody's listening to this and wants
to call us up with ideas, we're all in totally.
Speaker 2 (30:10):
Now.
Speaker 3 (30:10):
Talk about the athlete development.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
Obviously you're working with athletes now in the front office,
but as you describe this as an opportunity league, development
is a word that comes to mind. What are you
thinking about providing the athletes that play an upshot that
they might not experience elsewhere.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
They will have a focused program plan, understand culturally that
we are about helping them and listen. Not everyone's interested
in this. I remember being at the way early on
doing internships and women weren't interested. I'm playing now I'm
not interested. But because for the last fifteen years I've
been working with women and girls, we have a lot
(30:50):
of really great learning and programming that we are going
to provide for these athletes. So we're going to make you, hope,
a better athlete on the court and enhance your sense
of person who'd off the court. And I've already had
two amazing conversations with two totally different aspects of this
education platform, this opportunity development platform. And you don't know
(31:14):
me well enough, Laura, but if I'm going to go
into a space, then our team is going to figure
out a way to make it so it is world class.
It's going to be great and differentiating and really take
care of people. And I want people to emerge. Not
everyone's going to go to the WNBA, right, but even
if you go to the WNBA, even when I was there,
I was like, how do we help them be better
young women? Right? How do we help them get into
(31:35):
the world. How do we provide services? We can't do
it all, but they're going to know that we're there
and that there's opportunity for them to tap in broader.
And the same thing for our coaches. We have a
very three sixty approach to the coaches that we will select. Ultimately,
Taj is doing interviewing and she's starting right now. If
you want to be just great on the court, and
that's it. Go be great on the court, but if
(31:57):
you want to be a fully rounded coach can step
into both the on court as well as the off
court and be a face well and learn all these
different skills. That's the coach we're looking for. And that
is difference because so often and even today, you have
the business side and you have the sports side. And
I get that to a degree. We're a convergence opportunity
(32:18):
to learn about the world in a way that when
you emerge from this experience, how many years you participate
in it, you will come out well rounded and I
hope feeling grateful that you had the experience.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
I want to draw on something you said earlier. You
want to build assets, right correct. When I think about
the future of women's sports, and let's stick in the
obviously the world of basketball, we're not building a basketball team.
We're building brands that happen to play basketball. And I
think the faster that mindset can be adopted at all
levels and recognizing it's about everything now from game day
(32:51):
experience and off court promotion all the way through to
the tools, resources and infrastructure we provide athletes to set
them up for post career. Whether that's stay in the
organization or not, it all affects the brand of that
particular organization, league, et cetera. When you say I'm developing assets,
what does that mean to you? And how is that
something you're perhaps keeping at the forefront of your business planning.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
There's one hundred and sixty and I'm going to say
the word minor league baseball teams in America. And you
know what, cities and communities love those teams, right, They're
like part of who they are, their soul, whatever. And
so when I think about assets, which can be a
cool detached word, I'm thinking about creating real community connection
(33:37):
with things that families, fans, businesses can all be connected
to in a way that is more than just financial.
It's emotional, right, It's a pride in who we are.
We take pride in the women on the court, we
take pride in our support of them. All those things
you just said, which I thought you said really beautifully, Laura.
By the way, we're looking at holistically, really holy. These
(34:01):
are real people, right, yeah, and especially now, I think
many of us struggle with the every day of the now.
Where do I fit in? How do I fit in?
What do I do? How do I make it better?
How do I contribute? And I essentially distill it almost
every day because it's inside me that people and connectivity
(34:21):
and real relationships and authenticity is the most important humanizing
thing we can continue to do. And I truly believe
that the Upshot League and the work we're going to
do is a service to that. I look at it
as a service. We are in a service business, and
we are servants of the community.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
I think that mindset is a complete differentiator for the
Upshot in terms of how it's starting, but ultimately where
it will end up. How did you come up with
the name Upshot? Isn't naming the hardest part? Yes?
Speaker 1 (34:50):
And my partners had too. I'm not even going to
tell you what they were. They had two other working names,
and I'm like, first of all, no, And they just
popped in my head and I started to live with it,
and then I started to try it out on people,
and people go, oh my god, I love that, and
it was consistent. Oh my god, I love that. I
love that.
Speaker 3 (35:08):
I love that. I immediately got and so I was like, okay,
and then.
Speaker 1 (35:10):
You know what was really interesting? They said, okay, let's
go with it, and so here we are. We got
this cute little icon now too. It's a ball that
has this arrow that rolls up on it. It says
it all really, it really says it all right. The
upshot we're breaking on branding and kind of like working
through all of that fine tuning that will make this
really stand because you're right, this is a brand and
(35:32):
it speaks and it has a personality, and we're going
to put it out there for everyone else to say
what it means to them, because as we both know,
it's your consumers and your fans and your connectivity out
there that will shape it. But how are we going
to present it to them so that they can then
begin to define it. It's a big responsibility, and we're
moving fast.
Speaker 2 (35:51):
I wouldn't expect anything less if we sit down a
year from now. When we sit down a year from now,
what do you hope to have accomplished in your one.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
I'm always about proof points, right, prove the point. It's
kind of the thing that at the WNBA, let's do
proof points. Art big task was attendance. It had gone
down for eight years straight when I got there, Remember
it was there before nine years. I came in year
nine and I said, Okay, that's the game. I don't
want to play this game, but if that's a game
I need to win, that's a game we're going to win.
And so we started building attendance much differently than they
(36:22):
did before, and you started to go up one percent
two percent equals three percent two percent, and all of
a sudden, I was like that, oh, they're growing. So
my proof point here obviously, will be that our teams
do and perform well in every aspect. They'll be financially
successful and on the court they'll be successful. And my
hope is that we'll have between four and ten franchises
(36:42):
that will be in the works ready to go. So
that's what I'm thinking. I wanted to be a destination.
Athletes want to come there and play, Coaches want to
be there as a coach, people want to work in
the front office. It is a destination of opportunity that
provides benefits and the ability to up your shot for
everyone who wants to touch well.
Speaker 3 (37:00):
That is the ultimate mic drop, Donna.
Speaker 2 (37:02):
So I can't thank you enough for coming on and sharing,
first of all, your journey, which I learned a lot today,
but equally important your vision for where the upshot will go,
and I think women's basketball will be dependent and reliant
on its success. Super grateful for your time, but more
importantly your hustle. Every time I talk to you, I
(37:23):
like get ready to run through the wall. So I
appreciate this jolt of a discussion.
Speaker 3 (37:27):
Let's go, Laura go, I'm in, I'm in.
Speaker 2 (37:30):
Listen whatever you're selling, I'm buying so we make it happen.
But truly truly grateful to you and your continued efforts
and certainly vision in the space and without people like you,
women's sports looks a hell of a lot different.
Speaker 3 (37:43):
So thank you, Donna.
Speaker 1 (37:44):
Right back at you, Laura, thank you.
Speaker 2 (37:48):
I'm your host, Laura Krenti, founder and CEO of Deep
Blue Sports and Entertainment. Our executive producer is Jesse Katz,
and this show is produced by Ryan Martz along with
associate producers Meredith Barnes and Rachel Zuckerman. Quurt Side is
an iHeart women's sports production and partnership with Deep Blue
Sports and Entertainment. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
(38:08):
or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 3 (38:10):
Want more, follow rate and.
Speaker 2 (38:12):
Review court Side wherever you get your podcasts, and stay
in the game by following us on social media at
Iheartwomen's Sports, and don't forget to subscribe to our newsletter.
In the show notes, thanks for listening. We'll see you
next time court Side
And it's like, Okay, your noise, and I'm shutting you out.
Because when I would go to the arenas, there were
these beautiful families of girls and boys and dads and
moms and single women and all these people, and they
loved it. And I felt like, as long as I
can be in that arena and feel and understand the
promise of what we can deliver, we were shutting out
(00:22):
the noise. We were going to focus, we were going
to sell, and we were going to make it happen
when people said we couldn't.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Welcome back to Courtside, where we break down the business
of women's sports with the people who built it, challenged
it and changed it for the better. I'm your host,
Laura Crenzi. Today's episode is a masterclass in legacy, leadership
and looking forward. My guest is Donna Ranger, former president
of the WNBA, longtime sports exec and now co founder
(00:49):
of the Upshot League.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
If you're in the world of women's sports.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
You already know Donna's name, and if you don't, you've
definitely felt the ripple effects of her work. In this conversation,
Donna and I talk about the early days of building
credibility for the w how she navigated the male dominated
world of sports media and leadership, and why the next
generation of athletes and fans need more than just opportunity.
They need infrastructure, investment, and belief from boardrooms to ball courts.
(01:16):
Donna has spent decades pushing for equity, not just in headlines,
but in budgets, decision making, and the systems that sustain
that change.
Speaker 3 (01:23):
And she's still at it.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
So if you've ever wondered what it takes then not
only survive but lead in the business of women's sports,
stay with us. Donna Orender is in the building. Let's
get into it. Donna, welcome the court side.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
Hey, Laura, how you doing.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
I'm doing well, and it's so so great to have you.
I vividly remember the first time I met you, and
your energy came right through the phone in a way
that I'm like, calv I never met this woman before.
So it's been fast and furious since, and you've obviously
been up to a lot. But I wanted to take
us back to the beginning, especially for so many of
our listeners who arguably are relatively new to the version
(01:59):
of women's bat basketball that we've seen today. But you've
seen it through many, many iterations, and so let's start
with the first question, Donna, when did you fall in
love with women's basketball?
Speaker 1 (02:09):
Well, I fell in love with basketball, the game. I
never said it was women's basketball. It's interesting because it
wasn't women's basketball. I fell in love with the boys
were playing at Sleeperway camp and they had the cutest shirts,
said T shirts. They had all colors, and I wanted
a camp knock a mix some colored shirt. And I said,
how do I get to get a shirt? And they said,
we got to play leagues. I said, well, okay, then
(02:30):
I want to play in the league. I thought they
were so old, but there were two teenage young men
who used to take me down to the lower courts
and every single day they would teach me how to
play the game, and I fell in love with it.
Speaker 3 (02:41):
How old are you?
Speaker 1 (02:42):
I was twelve thirteen, probably late now you know we're
putting kids on the court at five or six, right,
But it was really that desire for a colored T shirt.
I will also say I think something I saw early on,
even in high school or junior high did you get
the shirt? Yes, I got many shirts? Was that you
can see how much attention the boys got right, they
(03:04):
were lauded, they were appreciated, they were adored, they were
followed because they played in these leagues. I'm like, wait
a second, I want to play too, Right, there's a
theme I want to play too. And so that's how
it all started. And I absolutely fell in love with
the game. And I'm still absolutely alone with the game.
Speaker 3 (03:22):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
And fast forward, you were there at the precipice when
this famous line talking about I want to play too.
We got next, came to fruition, and really as the
WNBA came to materialize, you were there early on Donna,
helping to drive its growth. How did you determine at
that point when women's sports, obviously as we know it today,
was in such early iteration, very minimal in the way
(03:44):
of investment in infrastructure, why did you say yes to
joining the w at its infancy and wanting to shape
its future.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
First of all, let me just say this, I played
at one of the best programs in the nation at
the time. We made history, played the first women's game
ever in the history of Madison Square Garden of Basketball. Right,
the mecca is the Garden today? And what team was
this it's Queen's College, actually, and our coach is just
about to get at long last, long overdue, but not
be happier. Inducted into the Women's Basketball Hall of Fame
(04:14):
in a couple of weeks.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
Amazing because she was.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Amazing, pioneer, thought leader, pushed us. Her lessons today are
still driving me and I love to tell her that
every time I see her. But you know what, on
the heyday of New York City Basketball women's basketball, you
know the fact that we were there, we got a
lot of press. I knew what it could be. There
were twelve thousand people at the Garden when we played.
I'll never forget Helen Ready singing. It's so much a
(04:38):
part of who I am. But ultimately I ended up
in the business of media and sports, and when the
opportunity came to go back into basketball, I realized that
everything that I was able to accomplish was one because
I was an athlete. Two people poured so much into me.
Even in my business career at the tour, rose to
the highest ranks global business deals, domestic business deals, and
(05:03):
I learned a lot. And so when this opportunity, when
Adam called me and said, hey, would you be interested,
and we'd been friends for a long time by that time.
I felt like a responsibility to pay it forward. I
felt like I had a chance to take everything that
I had learned and apply it in a new environment
and repay perhaps all that I had gained, hopefully growing
(05:26):
up without a lot other than the purest passion of
loving what we did, because that's what we did right.
It was never about the money, although we'll talk about money,
I'm sure it was about the team. It was about
improving your emotional best self. It was about becoming physically
(05:48):
strong and capable all those things, and yes, did you
want people to notice you, cheer for you, show up
for your Yes, right, But that essential passionate essence a
playing sport, A playing I think has stayed with me always.
Speaker 3 (06:05):
You're hitting on two themes.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
One the lessons we learn as an athlete that then
come to serve us later in life. And to the
consistent narrative, we must leave it better than we found it.
I was just doing a panel at a school actually
up in the Bronx this past weekend, and it really
struck me. Somebody asked me, the question is do you
see there being contention between the veterans and you know,
(06:27):
not having made what the college players are making today,
And I said, absolutely not. I said, what I'm seeing
is this absolute sense of community in and around We
must leave it better than we found it, and everybody
absolutely understanding their role and taking those incremental steps, standing
on the shoulders of giants that came before them to
continue to move this thing forward.
Speaker 3 (06:46):
And you literally just said it in.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
Thirty seconds of what I've been experiencing for two years.
But I'd love to drill and donn on what were
those skills or lessons that came back to serve you
and how did they present themselves as you started your
career in the world of sports business.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
I don't know that I knew it then. I knew
no one was going to work harder than me. Somebody
want to work as hard as me, God bless you,
and so that idea and I listened. I came from
a family and my dad was like, you're going to
work hard.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
That's it.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
You're going to do that. Man, We're going to work hard.
So I kind of knew that. But what I also
came to understand was that we have more in ourselves
than we ever come to recognize or realize. And you
know I always say this, I wasn't the fastest, I
didn't jump the highest, right, I was a great shooter.
I was willing to work, and my coach made me
(07:36):
understand that I could pull more out of me than
I thought possible. And it wasn't just on day one
or day five.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
Right.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
I don't know what day it is now in my life,
but to this day, when faced with challenging circumstances, whether
they be a mental, business, leadership skills, or even like
something on a court or competing, I know there's more
in me. And because I have systematically been able to
understand that and demonstrate that, generally I can look at
(08:09):
something say I can figure this out.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
I think there's so many consistencies in whatever iteration or
language any athlete wants to put around it, but the
feeling and the examples are probably consistent. I know I
can relate to that, having played through college and just
understanding that the best coaches teach you so much about
yourself versus instructing you on what to do with it.
And I think that that is such a gift. Let's
(08:32):
pivot to the leave it better than you found it.
So Adam Silver gives you the call, you decide to
join the W I did what did you inherit when
you said yes? And what was the first order of
business on Donna's watch?
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Okay, Well, first of all, I just want to say
I just got this cup and I noticed what it
says on it.
Speaker 3 (08:48):
See, oh I love that says dream.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
With some lipstick on it. Perfect.
Speaker 3 (08:53):
Perfect.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
The funniest thing is I'm a mom at this time.
I'm married, I have two young kids. I pack up
my bags and I go to New York, which is
obviously where I'm from. I say obvious because most people
can pick that up from my very gentle accent, you.
Speaker 3 (09:07):
And me both.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
And I actually am staying in some apartment, which was awful.
But the first thing I actually remember was I put
my stuff in my office and got on a plane
and went to the Women's Final four. And I can't remember.
I want to say it was in Ohio. I'd have
to look it up, I should. And I walk into
this carpeted ballroom, which was awful. I mean, the carpet smelled.
(09:32):
They had peanuts on the counter of the bar, and
I'm like, oh my god, what did I do?
Speaker 2 (09:39):
What year is this two thousand and five, two thousand
and five, twenty years ago?
Speaker 1 (09:44):
Yeah, And I look and I'm like, yeah, I'm coming
out of the world of golf, right, and you know,
money is everywhere and it's pristine, and you know, I'm
traveling all over the world, whether I'm in a Hawaii
or Scotland or whatever. And I walk into this really
seedy ballroom. I'm thinking, wow, wow, And I knew there
(10:05):
was a lot of work to do, right, I just
knew there was a lot of work to do, and
we were going to do it. And that's okay, right,
that was okay. But I'll never forget that feeling like,
oh my god, what did I do? I left a
very comfortable world to a world that really is on
this teetering edge of not where they were going to
go because there was a tremendous amount of passion to
be better, but the lack of recognition and resource and
(10:30):
celebration was just not there.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
So some people would have ran right back out to
the West Side Highway. But I have a feeling you
dug in.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
We dug in deep, dug in deep.
Speaker 3 (10:40):
Where do you even begin?
Speaker 2 (10:41):
When you inherit something like this knowing what its potential
could be, but the lack, obviously, as you alluded to,
resources that were at hand.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
I came in with a tremendous belief that we could
be successful in spite of every single day people telling
me otherwise, which, by the way, is not exactly the
best environment to be working in, but what the heck,
you know, It's one of the other great lessons I've
talked about in life that I've learned, thank you, David Stern,
which how not to hear no You learn to focus
and shut out the noise. Focus and shut out the noise.
(11:10):
It took a while, but I knew that I had
to build a belief system, and so basically I hit
the road and listen. I had my story in terms
of where I came from in the basketball world, tried
and tested, and what I thought we could do, and
I just went from market to market to market to
market and found the people that were believers. I did
(11:31):
have to understand what was happening, like what was connected
and what was not, and I was struck by how
much when I got there was unconnected. I used to
say that it wasn't like the plugs weren't in the wall.
It was like the wires had been removed. So I
had to rewire and reconnect. And there were a lot
of people who wanted to do that with me, like Bernard,
(11:51):
she wanted to do it. There's a lot of people.
There were a lot of people in market. So if
you start to build all those believers, then you realize
you have a population of believers that you can and
surf the wave that you're going to help build and create.
And I'm not saying that that's easy. It was hard
because it's still on a small population. When you build
that against sports radio that was still telling us, you know,
(12:12):
you have nerved believe that you even have the right
to exist, And it's like, okay, your noise, and I'm
shutting you out. Because when I would go to the arenas,
there were these beautiful families of girls and boys and
dads and moms and single women and all these people
and they loved it. And I felt like, as long
as I can be in that arena and feel and
(12:33):
understand the promise of what we can deliver, we were
shutting out the noise. We were going to focus, we
were going to sell, and we were going to make
it happen when people said we couldn't.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
I love everything that you're describing, right, Like, if I
close my eyes, that could be running a league, or
that be getting ready for a new season with a
new team. Because what sports teaches you, right, especially the
greatest leaders and the greatest captains, is having to get
people on board to achieve a common goal despite your experience,
despite who's a leader, who's a role player. I mean
(13:15):
you could go down the list that ability to evangelize
and galvanize your team to get focused, get in the zone,
and compete. So you get the believers, You've got people
in the stands. Take us through your journey in this
role of one of the greatest leagues, professional women's sports
leagues in the world.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
First things first, you've got to build your belief system, right.
So Sports Business Journal is like, okay, what is the
first league that's going to go out of business? And
of course the WNBA gets picked. So I call up
the guy at the time and I was not calm.
I literally was not calm at all.
Speaker 3 (13:51):
I don't believe you.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
I yelled at him and I said, what are you
really I am working, We are working art butts off, right,
you're gonna put something else out there like that, based
on what tell me, based on what can you give us.
I mean, there's nothing you're doing to help us out there,
because it's funny, like, there are people that will lead,
but there are many more people that will let others
(14:12):
lead and then they will follow. And I had to
make sure that our leaders felt comfortable in leading, and
that turned out being companies like Discover. By met Margo
Georgiatis so many years ago. She was amazing. We met
on a panel. She stepped up with a million dollars.
It was like Kevin Conroy who stepped up with like
three million dollars over multiple years at AOL. When my
internal people said, oh, they'll never do it, and it's funny.
(14:36):
Were friends to this day. He called me the other
day and we were laughing about that exact thing, right
because they no one will do it, Oh Toyota will
not do it. And so not only did we have
external naysayers, we had internal naysayers. And so again it
was really hard to be able to say, hey, stay focused,
you do what you want over here, we are going forward.
(14:59):
And it took about three years literally before the like
when are you folding mantra stopped because listen, public companies
don't want it, like if you're going away, we're not
going to invest. I had to create an environment with
a lot a lot of other people of creating a
safety place say no, no, we're staying here. And it happened.
Speaker 3 (15:17):
When did you know, Donna? When did you know? You
had something?
Speaker 1 (15:21):
Probably about three years in which kind of matches the
business cycle of my experience, which is first year you
figure out, like where the bathrooms are. A second year
you start to put everything in place. Third year you
kind of get it and like everything's going to start happening.
And I felt like in our third year we were
getting there, we were making progress, and it was by
no means easy, and I'm not going to pretend that
(15:42):
it was. It was freaking hard. Like I always say,
it was the hardest job I ever had, But it
was the best job I ever had. It was so meaningful.
It was a mission, right, It was a mission to
do the right thing. And it's funny, but what I
feel myself saying now is like what I'm saying I
mean now about the w I feel like I'm saying
now about the Upshot League, which was. It was the
right thing to do for all the right reasons, and
(16:04):
that's why that's one of the things I loved about David.
He did it for the right reasons, and the right
reasons matter.
Speaker 3 (16:09):
Right.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
It's not like we're a charity. It's a social imperative.
Speaker 3 (16:12):
And it's good business. It's great business totally anyway.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
So I felt like we got to that point and
our sales teams around the country were kind of happening,
and nationally were happening. And listen, doesn't mean that they
were all in good financial shape, but we had a
foundation to build on and there were a lot of
great owners who really believed that, and they were willing
to put themselves out there year after year and invest.
(16:38):
And it's funny when people say today, oh, look at
the prices of these teams, Well, guess what, they would
not be anywhere near where they would if the Michael
Alters or the Jinny Gilders, or the Lisa Brummels or
Sheila Johnson's and all of them did what they did.
They invested a long time to make this happen. I
think we all owe them a detogratude for sure.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Fast forward twenty years now, right, We're in this incredible
hockey stick growth moment that's happening.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
Rome wasn't built in a day.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
And one of my favorite conversations at Bubbles time to
time is this feeling as though it happened overnight, But
the reality is, to your point in some of the
investors you just named laid this groundwork two plus decades
ago and have been building. And when you look at
the trajectory in comparison to the men's, well, yes, then
you could argue hockey stick growth absolutely in terms of
the time it's taken to expedite. But when you look
(17:31):
at it now, knowing that it was the hardest job
you ever had to see where it is today, how
does it make you feel?
Speaker 1 (17:38):
I just want to do a happy dance wherever I am,
I'll just stop.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
And do it. You can do it right now if
you want to just do.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
A happy dance, I mean I am elated. It feels
in it so many ways. It's validating across the board
for women, not only in sport, but across the entire
population of women to see women excellence recognized not only
(18:06):
in the court of competition, but in the economic world,
right in the world of public opinion, all of these
different ways that give us our cues as human beings
about what is good and what is bad. We're finally
taggling on the good side much more on any other side.
And I think that's so important Beyond being athletes. I
(18:30):
think it's important for the world who we are.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
I often talk about, you know, sport is just the vehicle,
especially when you're talking to commercial partners who get hung
up on where women's sport is today.
Speaker 3 (18:42):
For me, it's just the vehicle, right.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
It's entertainment, it's community gathering, it's all of these things.
But at the end of the day, the outputs are
so much greater than the wins and losses column. You
talked earlier about leaving it better than you found it
and really digging your heels in. You're going again. You
starting another league called the Upshot.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
I'm so excited about this, But I just wanted to
say two things. One I'll never forget. During my time
at the w and my husband we both alternated commuting,
like he commuted to New York, and then when my
kids went back home there, my kids came to New
York for two years, and then we went back and
I remember, you know, he'd come to the games and
he looked around and he goes, you know, you can
never quit. And I looked at him. I said, who
do you think I am? He goes, I know who
(19:24):
you are, but I'm just saying this, and he said
it's just too important, like he just saw what it
all meant. And then earlier I quoted all these owners.
I do want to give credit to the NBA owner.
It's like Glenn Taylor in Minnesota, Like those days early
on were so hard. There were content likes do we
stay in? Do we wrap it up? We've put in
so much money? And he hung in and was rewarded
with four championships. Of course now that their team just
(19:45):
changed ownership. But Glenn, I mean he was also the
chair of the NBA for a while, the com Board
of Governors. There are so many men like him. I mean,
Jim Dolan kept the Liberty for a while and then
he didn't, but again invested a lot of money early
on to create the brand of the Liberty. So many
people invested, and I just want to make sure it
was across the board. So going back to your question,
(20:06):
going again.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
First, where do you find the energy? Because this is
a massive undertaking to start a league in this market
and this climate to say I gotta go, I gotta
do this again.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
Well, first of all, the energy is generated from the
work itself, right, the pursuit of it is the right
thing to do at the right time, for the right reasons,
and it's the right business model. And if you can
line all that up, Laura, you know you're a various
STUDI businesswoman. You line that up, you get the right partners.
(20:38):
And I have the most amazing partners. Like listen, I
went around the country both trying to sell and move franchises.
I know what it takes to make a good, solid franchise,
and it's more than that because I feel like we
are building community assets around women. It's no different I
felt about the WNBA, which was we wanted to build
(20:58):
a sustainable, vibe, liable business around strong women at a
time when people were a little scared of strong women.
They might still be a little scared strong women, but
they're not. They're embracing their daughters, their nieces, their cousins,
all of those young women, and they want to get
behind and cheer them on now in their communities. And
so I do believe sport is a tremendous community asset,
and we're going to bring them elite athletes, affordable entertainment.
(21:23):
We're going to pour in at every level in terms
of development. You know, we call it the Upshot League.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
What is the Upshot League? In a nutshell? Give me
the Donna Elevator pitch.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
All right? The Upshot League is about the uptick and
the upbeat of bringing great sport women's professional basketball to
communities across America. At the end of the day, it's
about upping everyone shot, from the players on the court,
to the coaching staff, to the front office, and to
the community itself. I'm proud to be the founder of
(21:54):
Generation W and Generation WOW, which is Women's Leadership Are
Girls per program is all about the positive and the possible.
It's about education, connection, inspiration, and leadership mentorship. And we're
going to bring that programming in for our fan base
as well. And so it's the idea of providing opportunity.
Speaker 3 (22:13):
Talk about the model.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
This is why I'm so excited about it. You need
good business partners. Andy Kaufman and Zawyer Sports are the
best business partners. They're currently owners and operating super successfully
with great results over eight years. So it's demonstrable people
can see it. Each team at every market that we're
launching in already has a team on the ground. They've
been there for a couple of years, so they're already
in with all of the companies they're selling tickets. So
(22:37):
I'll give you an example. We go to Savannah and
they have the savannahost Pirates. We're going to come in
as the Savannah I can't tell you what it is.
We're working at it right now.
Speaker 3 (22:45):
I thought I was getting breaking news there.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and we're going to hold off on
that one. Won't be fair to the mayor. Do a
press conference with the mayor and he says, you know,
we sell out the Ghost Pirates seventy four hundred tickets
beautiful arena every game. I'm telling you, we love basketball here.
We're going to do same thing for here. So the
community is already in love with the product that's there
and they want to expand it into women's basketball. It
couldn't be better. I had two sponsors while I was
(23:07):
at the press conference come up to me and say, hey,
love what you're doing. We want to sponsor you. I'm like, great,
we'll have our sponsors team to call you and we're
already on our way. I mean crazy, right, Crazy.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
Not really because when you look at the get in price, right,
and obviously you're building something that new from scratch, people
want to be involved, right for all the reasons that
you alluded to earlier, And so it's not crazy to me,
especially at the local level, to hear businesses watching what's
happening right and the ability to participate in a way
that they might not be able to for a myriad
(23:39):
of reasons at different leagues and different levels, because of
whether it's the get and price, it might be exclusivity,
it might not serve the region in which their business
is headquartered, or super serve their audience or customer. So
it's not crazy to me. And you talk about opportunity,
it's like we need more not just for the sport,
but for commercial partners who want to participate. Talk about
(24:19):
how upshot is part of and fits in or integrates
into the landscape of women's basketball in the US, so
people know how to think about it.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
Well, it's interesting, you know, I have a son who
played international basketball overseas. I spent a lot of time
traveling back and forth, and it gave me a great
chance to really see the club system in Europe, in
the Middle East, et cetera. They have all these leagues
and all these communities that participate. We don't have that here.
We have college and then you have the WNBA, and
there's nothing really in between that. And I've heard a
lot of talk from WNBA coaches and owners and gms
(24:50):
they really need a place. So if you look, they
think it was a Chicago Sky last year they were
down to six or seven players, They had a hardship.
There's no place for them to redevelop or retrain their athletes.
So there is a real need in the professional marketplace
to have a place where players and coaches can be developed,
they can be seen, and they can be here in America.
And that's why I call us to the Opportunity League
(25:11):
because in terms of talent, I ran the numbers for
the last three drafts, not the most recent one. One
hundred and eight players were drafted. Of those one hundred
and eight, twenty made a roster the first week. Can't
tell you how many were there at the end. We're
looking right now because we're monitoring at the first round
draft choices who are now being cut. There is so
(25:31):
much talent.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
For this season from this season. It's all over the press.
It's all a press and in people's social media, they're like,
we need more spots.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
We need more spots. So we're going to provide those spots.
We're going to provide the opportunity for these athletes to
skill up, be seen, but also get a professional job
in a market that's going to love them and have
that experience. And so in and of itself, Upshot's going
to provide great value to Jacksonville, Charlotte, Greensboro, Savannah. I
(26:00):
can see honestly thirty to forty teams in this league,
and I can see it having international extensions. We don't
want to get ahead of ourselves. We want to deliver
our success and that's what we're going to do, and
we'll show it by our ticket sales and our sponsorships.
But you would appreciate this, Laura, in particular. Our model
goals are very conservatively written and they're certainly achievable, and
(26:23):
those model will make sure that we not only break even,
but can move into the black as quickly as possible.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
Which on leads to expansion. Proof of concept, go go,
oh yeah, exactly. Can you talk about how you're picking
the markets, because you just rattled off a few that would,
in media terms not necessarily be your top tier selections.
How are you deciding where and how you're showing up
in the cities that you just named them beyond.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
Well, first of all, I'll take great exception because I'm
in Jacksonville and we are world class. And one of
the reasons where in Jacksonville is we really did fight hard,
and that's how Andy and I originally got together. He
had an independent pursuit of a team I did. We
saw each other and met each other, fell in love,
and we said, let's partner. I really feel that WNBA
would match most any market, honestly in terms of what
(27:09):
we can deliver. But I understand they might not think
that way. And I also know what the kind of
ranking is in terms of where they're going, So we said,
what the heck? So when we say there, maybe they
don't want us right now will prove to be great,
But that doesn't mean this the people of this DMA,
which is a million plus, shouldn't have the benefit of
(27:29):
professional sports and elite women's professional basketball. Again, I go
back to an opportunity league. I don't want to be
ranked in an old world view of ranking.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
I appreciate that. I'm a big fan of disrupting legacy systems.
So you're in the right company for that. You're in
the process of fundraising. I've had this conversation repeated. It
was just at this incredible event called Female Founder's Day
that's put on Rebecca Minkoff and Ally Wyatt Hole and
the Female Founder's Collective, and I got asked a question
in a conversation that I was a part of a
(27:59):
panel on, and somebody said, like, how do you frame
a sell like a product and walk away feeling like
you've closed the deal? And I was like, I don't
sell a product or service. I sell a conviction. As
I'm talking to you, this believability. You've been there, you
have the experience, you understand the model, you certainly understand
the fan and the market. I'm a big believer and
(28:20):
we are now moving from this era of necessity to
era of opportunity. What are your projections for your one?
How will this be received and how does it differentiate
in some of these markets, Savannah Jacksonville, that you're talking
about that haven't even had the opportunity to participate.
Speaker 3 (28:38):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
First of all, let's start with doing differently. Our first
hire was, I think, a statement to the marketplace. We
hired one of the most celebrated, accomplished on court athletes
as well as off court athletes, TODJ McWilliams Franklin. She's
worked the last five years at the WNBA in player services.
You worked at the NBA. She's a two time WNBA champion,
(29:01):
she's a world champion. I mean, she is just the best.
And we were talking the other day. It's funny. I'm
looking at my cup dream here and I said, Taj,
I do not want us in any way to be
encumbered or inhibited by what is And I'm not saying
what is is bad. I just want us to feel
free to think what can be that? And you and
(29:21):
I grew up playing a little different times, of course,
But what is in your heart in your brain that
says we should try it this way because we can
do that? Oh, Donna, I love this, and I said
I do too, So what is it? What is it?
I don't want to have to recreate another model. I
know the fundamentals of our model and I know the
(29:43):
fundamentals of what we're going to need to make the
money and show the market that we're a great investment.
I don't worry about that as much. I said, I
don't mind making errors of CO mission. I don't want
to make them, But I don't want to make the
errors of O mission. What did we not think through
that we should have? And so that's where we are
(30:04):
right now. So if anybody's listening to this and wants
to call us up with ideas, we're all in totally.
Speaker 2 (30:10):
Now.
Speaker 3 (30:10):
Talk about the athlete development.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
Obviously you're working with athletes now in the front office,
but as you describe this as an opportunity league, development
is a word that comes to mind. What are you
thinking about providing the athletes that play an upshot that
they might not experience elsewhere.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
They will have a focused program plan, understand culturally that
we are about helping them and listen. Not everyone's interested
in this. I remember being at the way early on
doing internships and women weren't interested. I'm playing now I'm
not interested. But because for the last fifteen years I've
been working with women and girls, we have a lot
(30:50):
of really great learning and programming that we are going
to provide for these athletes. So we're going to make you, hope,
a better athlete on the court and enhance your sense
of person who'd off the court. And I've already had
two amazing conversations with two totally different aspects of this
education platform, this opportunity development platform. And you don't know
(31:14):
me well enough, Laura, but if I'm going to go
into a space, then our team is going to figure
out a way to make it so it is world class.
It's going to be great and differentiating and really take
care of people. And I want people to emerge. Not
everyone's going to go to the WNBA, right, but even
if you go to the WNBA, even when I was there,
I was like, how do we help them be better
young women? Right? How do we help them get into
(31:35):
the world. How do we provide services? We can't do
it all, but they're going to know that we're there
and that there's opportunity for them to tap in broader.
And the same thing for our coaches. We have a
very three sixty approach to the coaches that we will select. Ultimately,
Taj is doing interviewing and she's starting right now. If
you want to be just great on the court, and
that's it. Go be great on the court, but if
(31:57):
you want to be a fully rounded coach can step
into both the on court as well as the off
court and be a face well and learn all these
different skills. That's the coach we're looking for. And that
is difference because so often and even today, you have
the business side and you have the sports side. And
I get that to a degree. We're a convergence opportunity
(32:18):
to learn about the world in a way that when
you emerge from this experience, how many years you participate
in it, you will come out well rounded and I
hope feeling grateful that you had the experience.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
I want to draw on something you said earlier. You
want to build assets, right correct. When I think about
the future of women's sports, and let's stick in the
obviously the world of basketball, we're not building a basketball team.
We're building brands that happen to play basketball. And I
think the faster that mindset can be adopted at all
levels and recognizing it's about everything now from game day
(32:51):
experience and off court promotion all the way through to
the tools, resources and infrastructure we provide athletes to set
them up for post career. Whether that's stay in the
organization or not, it all affects the brand of that
particular organization, league, et cetera. When you say I'm developing assets,
what does that mean to you? And how is that
something you're perhaps keeping at the forefront of your business planning.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
There's one hundred and sixty and I'm going to say
the word minor league baseball teams in America. And you
know what, cities and communities love those teams, right, They're
like part of who they are, their soul, whatever. And
so when I think about assets, which can be a
cool detached word, I'm thinking about creating real community connection
(33:37):
with things that families, fans, businesses can all be connected
to in a way that is more than just financial.
It's emotional, right, It's a pride in who we are.
We take pride in the women on the court, we
take pride in our support of them. All those things
you just said, which I thought you said really beautifully, Laura.
By the way, we're looking at holistically, really holy. These
(34:01):
are real people, right, yeah, and especially now, I think
many of us struggle with the every day of the now.
Where do I fit in? How do I fit in?
What do I do? How do I make it better?
How do I contribute? And I essentially distill it almost
every day because it's inside me that people and connectivity
(34:21):
and real relationships and authenticity is the most important humanizing
thing we can continue to do. And I truly believe
that the Upshot League and the work we're going to
do is a service to that. I look at it
as a service. We are in a service business, and
we are servants of the community.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
I think that mindset is a complete differentiator for the
Upshot in terms of how it's starting, but ultimately where
it will end up. How did you come up with
the name Upshot? Isn't naming the hardest part? Yes?
Speaker 1 (34:50):
And my partners had too. I'm not even going to
tell you what they were. They had two other working names,
and I'm like, first of all, no, And they just
popped in my head and I started to live with it,
and then I started to try it out on people,
and people go, oh my god, I love that, and
it was consistent. Oh my god, I love that. I
love that.
Speaker 3 (35:08):
I love that. I immediately got and so I was like, okay,
and then.
Speaker 1 (35:10):
You know what was really interesting? They said, okay, let's
go with it, and so here we are. We got
this cute little icon now too. It's a ball that
has this arrow that rolls up on it. It says
it all really, it really says it all right. The
upshot we're breaking on branding and kind of like working
through all of that fine tuning that will make this
really stand because you're right, this is a brand and
(35:32):
it speaks and it has a personality, and we're going
to put it out there for everyone else to say
what it means to them, because as we both know,
it's your consumers and your fans and your connectivity out
there that will shape it. But how are we going
to present it to them so that they can then
begin to define it. It's a big responsibility, and we're
moving fast.
Speaker 2 (35:51):
I wouldn't expect anything less if we sit down a
year from now. When we sit down a year from now,
what do you hope to have accomplished in your one.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
I'm always about proof points, right, prove the point. It's
kind of the thing that at the WNBA, let's do
proof points. Art big task was attendance. It had gone
down for eight years straight when I got there, Remember
it was there before nine years. I came in year
nine and I said, Okay, that's the game. I don't
want to play this game, but if that's a game
I need to win, that's a game we're going to win.
And so we started building attendance much differently than they
(36:22):
did before, and you started to go up one percent
two percent equals three percent two percent, and all of
a sudden, I was like that, oh, they're growing. So
my proof point here obviously, will be that our teams
do and perform well in every aspect. They'll be financially
successful and on the court they'll be successful. And my
hope is that we'll have between four and ten franchises
(36:42):
that will be in the works ready to go. So
that's what I'm thinking. I wanted to be a destination.
Athletes want to come there and play, Coaches want to
be there as a coach, people want to work in
the front office. It is a destination of opportunity that
provides benefits and the ability to up your shot for
everyone who wants to touch well.
Speaker 3 (37:00):
That is the ultimate mic drop, Donna.
Speaker 2 (37:02):
So I can't thank you enough for coming on and sharing,
first of all, your journey, which I learned a lot today,
but equally important your vision for where the upshot will go,
and I think women's basketball will be dependent and reliant
on its success. Super grateful for your time, but more
importantly your hustle. Every time I talk to you, I
(37:23):
like get ready to run through the wall. So I
appreciate this jolt of a discussion.
Speaker 3 (37:27):
Let's go, Laura go, I'm in, I'm in.
Speaker 2 (37:30):
Listen whatever you're selling, I'm buying so we make it happen.
But truly truly grateful to you and your continued efforts
and certainly vision in the space and without people like you,
women's sports looks a hell of a lot different.
Speaker 3 (37:43):
So thank you, Donna.
Speaker 1 (37:44):
Right back at you, Laura, thank you.
Speaker 2 (37:48):
I'm your host, Laura Krenti, founder and CEO of Deep
Blue Sports and Entertainment. Our executive producer is Jesse Katz,
and this show is produced by Ryan Martz along with
associate producers Meredith Barnes and Rachel Zuckerman. Quurt Side is
an iHeart women's sports production and partnership with Deep Blue
Sports and Entertainment. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
(38:08):
or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 3 (38:10):
Want more, follow rate and.
Speaker 2 (38:12):
Review court Side wherever you get your podcasts, and stay
in the game by following us on social media at
Iheartwomen's Sports, and don't forget to subscribe to our newsletter.
In the show notes, thanks for listening. We'll see you
next time court Side
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