July 12, 2022 • 30 mins
Today's guests are producer Jeff Shane and true crime podcasters Leah Lamarr and Demetri Pappas.
Leah is a writer, actress, producer, director, standup comedian and Clubhouse app influencer. She also hosts the iHeartMedia podcast Real-Time Crime, which is available to download now. You can find her on Instagram @leahlamarr.
Demetri is a comedy writer and consultant with over 25+ years in the entertainment industry. He is also a producer and co-host of Real-Time Crime. You can find him on Instagram @demetripappas.
Two women, one man and a missing person’s case. What may sound like an age-old love triangle is actually anything but. This week reminds you to be careful who you give your heart to.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Falling in love is the best feeling in the world.
You see stars, you feel giddy, but sometimes that makes
you do crazy things, and sometimes that means murder. Just
because the story starts out with once upon a Times
doesn't mean it ends happily ever after. Welcome to Crazy
and Love, a production of Katie Studios and I Heart Radio.
(00:25):
Today's guests are true crime producer Jeff Shane, joined by
true crime experts Lea Lamar and Dmitri Pappas. Leah hosts
the our Heart Media podcast Real Time Crime, which is
available to download now. Dmitri is a producer and co
host of the I Heart Media podcast Real Time Crime,
(00:45):
Episode thirty five, The Case of the Advocate, the Convict
and the Undercover Lover. At forty six years old, Louise
Ellis had what would appear to be a very full
life in Ottawa, Canada. She was known for her sense
of humor and her flair for the whimsical. Louise was
(01:07):
a healthy and energetic woman who enjoyed dancing, gardening, and
tai chi. She was popular and passionate and found success
as a children's book author and illustrator. Louise had a
unique style of drawing, using just dots to create intricate
and stunning images. But if only the carrying, brown haired
beauty could create a picture perfect image for her own life.
(01:30):
Despite having so much, Louise felt like she was missing love.
But while she was looking for a deep relationship, Louise
also worked toward criminal justice reform. A true feminist, Louise
often helped bring attention to wrongfully incarcerated women, but in
she was interested in the wrongful conviction of a man
named David mill Gard. He'd been accused and convicted of murder.
(01:55):
As she sat in the courtroom watching a hearing, a
jailhouse informant took the stand. He wasn't necessarily conventionally handsome,
but the bald man had a thick mustache and kind eyes.
Louise was intrigued. It seemed that the convict had offered
up testimony that would help free the convicted killer. In exchange,
(02:16):
the informant would get a lighter sentence. After the hearing,
as the man was being esquirted out in handcuffs, Louise
asked the bailiff for a moment with him. The man
introduced himself as Brett Morgan. Louise told Brett he was
courageous for telling the truth and that not every man
had the bravery to do something like that. When she
(02:37):
left court that day, Louise felt something she hadn't felt
in a long time, a spark. Louis and Brett began
writing to each other and she would visit him in prison.
Within a short while, the relationship became romantic. Yes, he
was in jail, but like most criminals, he deserved a
second chance. Brett had come from an abusive home and
(02:58):
still managed to be thoughtful and intelligent as an advocate
for justice. Louise was working hard to get Brett early parole.
She vowed to be the one to make a difference
in his life. Here's Jeff. The way Brett described their
relationship was that Louise was his soul mate and that
their love was profound. So they were, by very much
accounts in love, and Louise committed to what she said earlier,
(03:22):
which is making a difference in his life. She set
him up with the gardening business, buying him a truck
and tools and really putting him on the path for success.
And on the outside looking in, everything appeared to be
going well, despite the fact that Louise was quiet about
her relationship. The couple appeared happy. Friends described to the
pair as something out of an Emily Bronte novel Withering Heights,
as there was an extreme class difference between them. She
(03:44):
was very well educated and he was the epitome of
blue collar. But there's one thing we haven't talked about,
which is why Brett was in prison in the first place. Lea,
do you know anything more about that? Brett had been
convicted of manslaughter almost twenty years before meeting Louise in
ninety eight. He actually strangled a prostitute to death in
(04:04):
a hotel room. So he'd been high on cocaine at
the time, and he had a lengthy criminal record before
this incident, also including robbery and fraud. Now that's that's
pretty bad. But you know, perhaps because of the previous
drug abuse. Perhaps his drug abuse was part of the
issue here. Now, according to our research, cocaine interferes with
(04:28):
mood from the very first use, but in the longer term,
cocaine abuse can cause frequent mood swings due to the
inference it has with the brain. Two thousand twenty studies
showed that the most common substance taken by those committing
domestic violence crimes was indeed cocaine. So Louise clearly felt
that Brett had gotten sober and was rehabilitated. I mean,
(04:49):
after all, that is the goal of the criminal justice system.
Saturday April was a blisteringly warm day. Louise had plans
to go visit an ex boyfriend and his daughter about
four hours away in Quebec. His name was John Mason
Off and even though there were no longer together, she
remained close with both him and the daughter. The girl
(05:13):
was having a birthday party that day and Louise wanted
to attend. At around one or one fift PM, Louise
packed up her yellow truck and headed out. Hours later,
Louise hadn't checked in with Brett. Concerned, he called a
friend who lived in the area to go drive around
and see if they could find her. The friend was
(05:33):
able to find Louise's truck, but it offered nothing. There
was no sign of a struggle. The doors were locked
and inside were her keys, purse, and overnight bag. It
was as if Louise had vanished without a trace. Here's Leah.
So Brett gets the police involved and a search begins. Now,
(05:56):
while her car would indicate that she would actually have
been the work close by, there was no sign of
her in the woods or even in the nearby river. Okay,
So Brett took the initiative to find her. He made posters,
performed his own searches, and he even waited on the
road where her car was found to ask people driving
and walking by if they knew anything, all to no avail.
(06:19):
Brett also was super active in talking to the press.
He could be seen in interviews saying, I have to
find my sweetie. I have to bring her home. And
it's interesting because I would think Brett would quickly become
suspect number one, because we've seen that in many cases
where the romantic partner is always the first suspect. But
(06:40):
that's not actually what happened. Police definitely looked into Brett.
I mean, like he was a convicted killer, so hello,
obviously he's the first person to look into for a
myriad of reasons. But he was the one who reported
her missing, so that didn't really point towards his guilt.
I mean, there are a lot of times where the
(07:01):
person who's committed the murder would never report the person missing.
So just also remember Louise set him up financially and
so he seemingly had no reason to harm her. You know,
people always check finances as well for a motive, So
we don't have a clear motive yet. Okay, So if
Brett wasn't there number one suspect, then then who was
(07:23):
It seems police were looking at John, who was the
ex boyfriend that Louise went to go visit, but as
we know, she never made it there. But John and
Louise had been in an on again, off again relationship
that ended for good when Brett came into the picture.
So perhaps he was jealous of Brett and he killed
Louise in sort of one of those like if I
(07:43):
can't have you, then no one else can sort of thing.
So it made sense in a way that John had
a motive and he clearly had an opportunity because she
had you know, she was on her way to see him.
John wasn't the only suspect that police were circling it on.
Another suspect that they were looking at was the violent
under the Brett had read it out. Remember, the start
of this whole romance was Brett being a jailhouse informant
(08:05):
to get someone out of prison, and police were thinking
that maybe that man that Brett through under the bus
could have been angry enough to seek revenge against him
by harming his common law wife. Now, Leah and Dmitri,
I mean, you guys cover a lot of crime in
your podcast Real Time Crime. Is this normal that the
police are kind of circling a bunch of different suspects
(08:26):
and kind of crossing people off the list or what
do you make of this started this investigation? Yeah? I
think that they usually do look at a lot of
different suspects, and they always put the person of romantic
interest in the pool, or the family in the pool,
you know, anyone who was super close to the diseased,
(08:47):
or anyone they might have worked with or been around
that evening, and they questioned the last people they came
into contact with. So this is all pretty usual, I
would say. And Dmitrie, what do you think? Yeah. One
of the things that that I focus on a lot
is I don't like when the police go and find
the most obvious person right now and focus solely on that.
(09:10):
So I do appreciate that they're taking all these things
into consideration, and unfortunately Sadly, for Louise, it seems that
a couple of her relationships were abusive relationships. So both
of those guys, you know, there's motive in both of
those and obviously someone that had been read it out
from jail. I think all three suspects are justified to
be looked into, but it's interesting that the police, in
(09:30):
their due diligence, are kind of backing off of the
boyfriend who's also a convict and deciding to look elsewhere.
When you hear a situation like that, it makes you
think that there is a payoff situation, or someone is
close to someone there's a dirty cop, or you know,
there's some sort of handshake situation happening, or my favorite
(09:50):
option is there's something larger at stake, like there's a
marijuana farm being planted somewhere and the police are in
business with this guy, and you know, there's always someone
being protected for illogical reasons until you find out that
it's cocaine, and so, you know, because he had been
on cocaine when he murdered the prostitute, it's not far
off to think that he might be selling drugs to
(10:12):
the cops or vice versa to me if someone's like,
I know we said earlier, like that doesn't seem like
something that the behavior of someone that did it, I
don't know, and someone's like, oh, where is my sweetie?
Oh and asking to me that almost feels I guess
I'm trained to think like that's an act. Sadly, sometimes
it's not an act, and then you end up suspecting
that person anyway. But so I think I would I'd
(10:33):
like to think maybe the police were like, Okay, we're
investigating all of this, but we're not going to let
on to who we're actually considering, right, And I'd like
to see the footage, like how good of an actor
is this guy? I I feel like he was one
of those people that was like, oh, whoa is me?
Where is my sweetie? You know, just a real bad actor.
I mean, I don't know. But but then again, let
(10:56):
me just say this. I think that if you are
so concerned and really actively doubling down on trying to
find the person, it either makes you look so guilty
because you know exactly where the person is, or so innocent.
It's got to be an awkward situation. Well, someone's like,
I know this person thinks I might have done it.
(11:17):
Now what am I doing? Am I doing this too
much that I look guilty? Or am I It's it's
probably tough to wrap your head around, um whether you
know how you're portraying yourself, because you clearly don't want
to be if you didn't do it, you don't want
to be mistaken, and I guess if you did do it,
you also don't want to be found out without a body.
That this is all preliminary and it's hard to even
make an arrest when you don't have a body. As
we all know, the police performed an extensive search on
(11:40):
John's land, which turned up nothing. He also had a
pretty solid alibi, keeping at his parents cottage all weekend
celebrating his daughter's birthday. There were lots of witnesses who
could place him there. As for the violent offender that
Brett had gotten into trouble with, he had been out
of jail at the time, awaiting sentencing, but on April
(12:03):
twenty two, at six ten am, the day Louise went missing,
he was being pulled over for a traffic violation hundreds
of miles away, so he couldn't have done it. The
police were back to square one with no leads. Meanwhile,
someone else was following the case very closely. Here's Dmitri
(12:25):
and that someone was Marie Perrant. She had moved to
Canada like two years prior from Scotland and she was
actually studying to be a private investigator. Now, Louise's car
was found just twenty five minutes from Marie's home, and
so I think she kind of felt drawn to the case.
She hated seeing women being abused and felt that she
needed to try and help in any way that she could,
(12:46):
so as part of her she kind of intertwined that
with her studying, and as part of her final assignment
in her PI training, she took on the case. Now,
much like the police who were back at square one,
she didn't have really an idea of where to start,
so she decided to all Brett straight up and arranged
a meeting with him. The problem is, Marie, like others,
found Brett to be very charming, and she then wanted
(13:09):
to help the man who lost the love of his life.
Like all good narcissists, they are super charming and we
are easily convinced by them. Sounds like that could be
the case here for poor Marie, but she started by
looking at the big picture, so her first thought that
was that was a car jacker. But the town in
which Louise's car was found was mostly unpopulated as the
(13:30):
summer season hadn't begun yet. The car was also locked,
and nothing was stolen, so the car jacker theory didn't
really add up. The more Marie thought about the case,
the more it made sense that someone who knew Louise
was probably behind this. And now she's starting to think
could the police have gotten it wrong? In John the
jealous X where we're going with this? Well. As Marie
(13:52):
was investigating the case more and more, she started talking
to Brett regularly and they stuck up a bit of
a friendship. As part of her investigation, she ended up
recording all of their conversations with him and would then
review them at night. So one night she was reviewing
the tapes and she caught something that could not be ignored.
She had asked Brett about the state of the car,
and primarily she asked him was the seat pushed back
(14:15):
farther than usual, as if someone else besides Louise had
been driving it? And his response sent chills down her spot.
He said it was exactly the way I and then
he sort of stopped himself and started over and said
it was exactly the way Louise left it. Now Marie
could not help but wonder if she had just caught
him in kind of a major slip. We're going to
(14:38):
take a break. We'll be back in just a moment.
The police were looking more into Louise in Brett's life
before her disappearance. They discovered that things hadn't been going
(15:02):
as smoothly as he'd led on. At the time of
her disappearance, Brett oh Louise twenty thousand dollars. In speaking
with the manager at her bank, the police discovered that
she had been growing increasingly concerned that he hadn't paid
her back, calling the manager four to five times a
day and asking if the money had come in. Detectives
(15:22):
also discovered that Brett had been writing himself checks from
Louise's account. He had been doing this by forging her signature.
She would call the bank and sense to the mistake,
and when they figured out it was Brett doing it,
she would make excuses. It seemed like the compassionate and
gentle forty six year old children's spoke author was in
way over her head. The police also uncovered Louise's diary,
(15:48):
and while their friends thought Brett and Louise had such
a solid relationship as most do from the outside, her
words portrayed a very different story than what her friends
had ever a gined. She wrote that just two months
after moving in, Brett became abusive, and the abusive behavior
included Brett pouring beer over her head, punching a hole
(16:08):
through the bathroom door during a fight, and many other
very blatantly abusive acts. And she wrote that she wanted
him to move out and that she wanted to break
up with him. Yeah, Leah, and that's actually not all
of the police uncovered around the same time, they ended
up finding what would become a bit of a smoking
gun for their investigation. Now, if you remember, Brett had
told them that the Saturday Luise was last sing alive,
(16:30):
she left their place at around one or one pm,
but the cops found that her a t M card
was used to withdraw exactly two eighty dollars at two PM.
Now that a t M card was found in her car,
which would imply that it left the house with her,
and the police were able to track down the surveillance
footage from the A t M camera, and sure enough,
(16:51):
on the tape was none other than Luise's partner, Brett Morgan.
That meant that he lied to the police about the
last time he saw her, and if he lied about
at what else could he be lying about. They also
uncovered that in May, right after the murder, Brett also
started to request access to Louise's estate, which, as we know,
is never a good sign. It's beyond not a good sign.
(17:13):
It's basically saying, you know, I'm moving on past this,
the disappearance of my partner, and now I want financial gain.
So it seemed that the once tearful husband Brett now
might have been the killer. Right But like we said before,
without a body, prosecution can't do too much, so you
can't really stick to any charges. The police knew that
they needed more in their pursuit of Brett, so they
(17:35):
bugged his house and started surveillance on him, and that's
how they discovered that he was getting close with Marie Barrant.
The police then reached out to Marie and got Hurt
involved in the investigation, which, as I'm sure an aspiring
private investigator was probably a bit of a dream come true.
She immediately told them about her suspicions of Brett. The
police asked her to help get information, but she decided
(17:58):
to do one better. She actually pledged that she would
get them the body. In June, Marie suggested to Brett
that they go search for Louise, and she had a
listening device in her bag and surveillance on their tail.
The police were tracking bretton Marie as they made their
way to the woods. Since the area was so isolated,
they couldn't get too close though, which kind of left
(18:19):
Marie very much alone with the potential killer. And after
about ninety minutes of driving, Brett pulled over and suggested
that they start searching. That would give me the chills alone,
just him suggesting that they pull over and a random
part of the woods. As they made their way through
the woods, Brett was sopping wet with sweat. He stopped
and he looked at Marie and, apparently with a menacing grin,
(18:43):
told her that the only time he ever got this
sweat he was during sex. Gross like sending a chill
down my spine. And at that moment, I mean, anyone
would realize this. It's like, if this guy wanted to
kill her, the police never could have saved her in time.
She was too far away. He would just do it
(19:03):
right then. And there, poor Marie is left alone in
the woods with this guy because they're they're tailing them,
but they go into the woods and to keep that distance,
they can't just all of a sudden jump out of
a tree. Right. She must have been terrified because she
doesn't know that this guy didn't do it. The moment, however, luckily,
was interrupted by a helicopter flying overhead. So then I
(19:24):
think Brett got a little suspicious, and he asked Marie
if she was an undercover cop. Now, Marie, you know
her quick thinking. She she knew the listening device was
in her bag. So what she held up her hands
and she said, listen, if you want to pat me down,
you can. So he started to and then he stopped,
and he said that he trusted her, luckily, because I mean,
what happened if he said let me check your back,
you know, at that point that was enough to spook him,
(19:46):
and he told her that the search was over. We
call her a private investigator, but she's barely won. She's
not even an officially one. This is her final assignment.
I mean, she's a regular person now being involved with
this very scary police investigation. What do you what do
you guys make of that? Well, it's interesting because our
podcast started with the Gabby Potito Brian Laundry case, and
(20:06):
the whole point of it was that the entire Internet
turned into social sluits and people wanted to go out
and search for Brian Laundry. People wanted to go out
and search for Gabby Potito, and so it's almost like
regular people all the time want to get involved because
people want justice, people want answers. I mean, it seems
(20:27):
like she had taken this to the next level of
what we have seen so far. If I were her,
I would have been terrified. Well that's it. I mean, like,
like you said, the social sluths, that's great, but you're
sitting at home looking at stuff and then you know,
putting out TikTok's this woman went into the woods for
(20:47):
you said it was, you know, her final assignment for
for school. It could have been her final assignment ever,
because she went into the woods with this guy and
and clearly you know enough to be saying the enough
inappropriate or weird stuff to put her on guard. I mean,
I don't know. I give her, I give her props
for for being brave and and for going through with that,
(21:08):
but it had to have been terrifying. I mean, it's
it seems like the equivalent of letting a medical student,
you know, do a heart transplant for their final exam,
instead of having it be a licensed doctor. How did
the police do that? Right? Right? The police are usually
very specific or very careful when they put someone into
a situation, like we're gonna put a wire on you,
but don't worry. But they literally put her in a
(21:29):
arm in harm's way here, right because they were following,
so they were aware of this. They let her go
far enough into the woods with this guy and we're like, well,
we're willing to roll the dice with Marie. Is basically
what they said. Yeah, that is really odd. Weeks passed
and Brett had become skittish. He stopped returning marie calls
and refused to go on any more searches. The police
(21:50):
decided to use Louise's money as bait. Investigators told Brett
that Louise couldn't be declared dead without a body. That
meant that despite being her air, he wasn't able to collect.
Growing desperate for cash, Brett started to sell off Louise's
personal items. One night, Marie finally got Bread to meet
her at a bar over drinks. He asked her how
(22:12):
he could trust her. They looked at each other and
a moment of tension was building. He leaned over the
table and got close to her face. Marine knew this
was a make or break moment, and she had to
do what a police officer would never dare. So in
the dark bar, she kissed Bread. The kiss is obviously
very unconventional for a police officer or p I student,
(22:36):
I would imagine, but you know, at times like this,
when when your life is on the line, the case
on the line, I guess you do what you gotta do.
I think that this is another case of doubling down,
exactly the way that he doubled down, and you know,
acting desperate and trying to lead searches for her dead body.
She doubled down on being like, no, you can trust me,
I'm not a cop here. I'll show you. I'll kiss
(22:58):
you as soon as she came into picture, right, Marie,
they said she developed a friendship. She wanted to help
this guy who lost the love of his life. She
said she thought he was charming, right, So then at
that point I was like, oh gosh, does she fall
for this guy? Is he's one of those guys with
the charming because now she may have thought he was innocent,
but now she's clearly got questions because he's kind of
freaking her out. So the question is, was she just
(23:19):
playing this the whole time? Was she just like, I
gotta get this guy to trust me from the get go,
and maybe she maybe she didn't find him charming. Either way,
it's it's a ballsy move on Maries Bart. The move
seemed to work because as the night was ending, Brett
calmed down and actually agreed to go on another search.
So on July seven, the pair went back into the woods.
(23:41):
During the search, Brett was teasing Marie with questions, asking
if she was nervous, and at one point, as they
made their way through the thick brush, Brett told Marie
to be careful of barbed wire. She immediately, you know,
pinned on that, because how would he have known the
barbed wire was there if he had never been there?
At this point, he's like, hey, let's go searching in
so you think either a he wants his money so
(24:02):
he's going to find the body, right, or be he
wants to off me. And when he said that about
the barbed wire, she her heart must have sunk into
her stomach. Fortunately, and unfortunately, finally in the clearing, Marie
spotted Louise's body. She looked over at Brett, who, interestingly enough,
was not looking at the corpse of his wife, but
(24:24):
rather directly at Marie. She ran to him, grabbed his
shoulders and proclaimed, we did it, you know, like we
found her. But to take this to a creepier level,
at that point, Brett was still only staring at Marie,
and it seemed perhaps he was debating on whether or
not he would have to kill her. Eventually that that
trance that he had on her broke and he began
(24:45):
to cry. He ran to Louise's body and started sobbing
and begging her to wake up. So, after Marie calmed
Brett down a little bit, they made their way back
to the car, drove back to town, and later that afternoon,
Brett went to the police and reported Luise's body, and
instead of being thanked and kind of celebrated. Brett was
(25:05):
actually arrested for the crime. So the police already had
an official theory, and that was that on the morning
of April, Louise was getting ready to go visit on
for the birthday party, and Brett attacked her in the bath.
They think that he strangled her to death, wrapped her
body in a shower curtain, and then put her in
(25:25):
the truck's trunk, drove her out to the woods, and
dumped her in the clearing where Marie would later find
her body. And then after all that was said and done,
he wrote his bicycle back home and then waited to
call the police. Let's stop here for another break. I
(25:57):
wonder if Marie had not gotten involved, if police ever
would have connected the dots, and if Brett would have
been vulnerable enough to locate the body. I think that
he didn't think through the fact that if they didn't
find a body, he wouldn't get the money, because even
though he was the heir, they need a body, and
so he was just scrounging for money. And I think
(26:21):
Marie was the only person he felt safe around, and
he was just kind of praying she wasn't a cop.
And then she kissed him, and then I think he
felt like he needed someone and so this was a
last resort. Maybe he thought he outsmarted her and led
her right to the body. He could have gotten away
(26:42):
with it if he didn't need the money so badly,
I think so. I think most of the credit obviously
goes to Marie for really putting herself out there and
getting close to this guy. That's something that the police
would not have been able to do. She probably even
made Brett think that she was trying to clear his name.
But I think as much as we want answers quickly,
I think Marie got his trust and then waited for
(27:04):
the slip ups and the mistakes. It really goes to
Marie's slow playing. This is what I think solved this case.
Although he maintained his innocence, Brett was charged with first
degree murder, and at his trial that lasted six months,
he was found guilty. Brett was sentenced to life in
prison with no possibility of parole for twenty five years.
(27:27):
The police also suspected he was responsible for two unsolved
murders from the nineteen seventies. As she wrapped up her
first and very successful investigation, Marie asked the police to
send one final message to the man she'd grown close
with and ultimately helped put away. How does it feel
to be taken down by a woman? Sadly, the message
(27:50):
was never delivered to him, as Brett Morgan died in
prison of hepatitisy just two months after being convicted. Marie
was awarded for hundred dollars for her help. She eventually
moved back to Scotland. As for at least a woman
once full of so many promises, her memory lives alive
(28:10):
in a Canadian monument dedicated to commemorating women who were murdered.
I wanted to ask you guys with Real Time Crime,
is there anything coming up? What can we expect next
for the podcast? What can you tease us with? So?
On our podcast Real Time Crime, we have exclusive interviews
with incredible directors or cast members of documentaries for true
(28:32):
crime that will come out a week later after our episode,
so you hear it first. On our podcast, you hear
exclusive interviews with people who have the inside scoop on
all of the juicy details. So make sure to tune
into Real Time Crime if you like to have all
the information at the palm of your fingertips before it
gets released. Yeah, and and unfortunately, the crime to keep happening,
(28:55):
so we're never at a loss for stuff to talk about.
Leah is a writer at dress, producer, director, stand up comedian,
and clubhouse app influencer. She also hosts the R Heart
Media podcast Real Time Crime, which is available to download now.
You can find Leah on Instagram at Leah Lamar. Dmitri
(29:18):
is a comedy writer and consultant with over twenty five
years in the entertainment industry. He's a producer and co
host of the I Heart Media podcast Real Time Crime.
You can find him on Instagram at Dmitri pappas shameless Plug.
If you're enjoying Crazy and Love, leave us a review
and listen to season three of our hit series The
(29:39):
Piked and Massacre. New episodes there every Wednesday wherever you
get your podcasts, and don't forget to follow us on
Instagram at Katie Underscore Studios. Crazy and Love is produced
by Stephanie Lydecker, Jeff Shane, Chris Grieves and me Courtney Armstrong.
Editing and sound designed by Jeff ba. Crazy in Love
(30:02):
is a production of I Heart Radio and Katie Studios.
For more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the I
heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows. Stay safe, lovers,
Falling in love is the best feeling in the world.
You see stars, you feel giddy, but sometimes that makes
you do crazy things, and sometimes that means murder. Just
because the story starts out with once upon a Times
doesn't mean it ends happily ever after. Welcome to Crazy
and Love, a production of Katie Studios and I Heart Radio.
(00:25):
Today's guests are true crime producer Jeff Shane, joined by
true crime experts Lea Lamar and Dmitri Pappas. Leah hosts
the our Heart Media podcast Real Time Crime, which is
available to download now. Dmitri is a producer and co
host of the I Heart Media podcast Real Time Crime,
(00:45):
Episode thirty five, The Case of the Advocate, the Convict
and the Undercover Lover. At forty six years old, Louise
Ellis had what would appear to be a very full
life in Ottawa, Canada. She was known for her sense
of humor and her flair for the whimsical. Louise was
(01:07):
a healthy and energetic woman who enjoyed dancing, gardening, and
tai chi. She was popular and passionate and found success
as a children's book author and illustrator. Louise had a
unique style of drawing, using just dots to create intricate
and stunning images. But if only the carrying, brown haired
beauty could create a picture perfect image for her own life.
(01:30):
Despite having so much, Louise felt like she was missing love.
But while she was looking for a deep relationship, Louise
also worked toward criminal justice reform. A true feminist, Louise
often helped bring attention to wrongfully incarcerated women, but in
she was interested in the wrongful conviction of a man
named David mill Gard. He'd been accused and convicted of murder.
(01:55):
As she sat in the courtroom watching a hearing, a
jailhouse informant took the stand. He wasn't necessarily conventionally handsome,
but the bald man had a thick mustache and kind eyes.
Louise was intrigued. It seemed that the convict had offered
up testimony that would help free the convicted killer. In exchange,
(02:16):
the informant would get a lighter sentence. After the hearing,
as the man was being esquirted out in handcuffs, Louise
asked the bailiff for a moment with him. The man
introduced himself as Brett Morgan. Louise told Brett he was
courageous for telling the truth and that not every man
had the bravery to do something like that. When she
(02:37):
left court that day, Louise felt something she hadn't felt
in a long time, a spark. Louis and Brett began
writing to each other and she would visit him in prison.
Within a short while, the relationship became romantic. Yes, he
was in jail, but like most criminals, he deserved a
second chance. Brett had come from an abusive home and
(02:58):
still managed to be thoughtful and intelligent as an advocate
for justice. Louise was working hard to get Brett early parole.
She vowed to be the one to make a difference
in his life. Here's Jeff. The way Brett described their
relationship was that Louise was his soul mate and that
their love was profound. So they were, by very much
accounts in love, and Louise committed to what she said earlier,
(03:22):
which is making a difference in his life. She set
him up with the gardening business, buying him a truck
and tools and really putting him on the path for success.
And on the outside looking in, everything appeared to be
going well, despite the fact that Louise was quiet about
her relationship. The couple appeared happy. Friends described to the
pair as something out of an Emily Bronte novel Withering Heights,
as there was an extreme class difference between them. She
(03:44):
was very well educated and he was the epitome of
blue collar. But there's one thing we haven't talked about,
which is why Brett was in prison in the first place. Lea,
do you know anything more about that? Brett had been
convicted of manslaughter almost twenty years before meeting Louise in
ninety eight. He actually strangled a prostitute to death in
(04:04):
a hotel room. So he'd been high on cocaine at
the time, and he had a lengthy criminal record before
this incident, also including robbery and fraud. Now that's that's
pretty bad. But you know, perhaps because of the previous
drug abuse. Perhaps his drug abuse was part of the
issue here. Now, according to our research, cocaine interferes with
(04:28):
mood from the very first use, but in the longer term,
cocaine abuse can cause frequent mood swings due to the
inference it has with the brain. Two thousand twenty studies
showed that the most common substance taken by those committing
domestic violence crimes was indeed cocaine. So Louise clearly felt
that Brett had gotten sober and was rehabilitated. I mean,
(04:49):
after all, that is the goal of the criminal justice system.
Saturday April was a blisteringly warm day. Louise had plans
to go visit an ex boyfriend and his daughter about
four hours away in Quebec. His name was John Mason
Off and even though there were no longer together, she
remained close with both him and the daughter. The girl
(05:13):
was having a birthday party that day and Louise wanted
to attend. At around one or one fift PM, Louise
packed up her yellow truck and headed out. Hours later,
Louise hadn't checked in with Brett. Concerned, he called a
friend who lived in the area to go drive around
and see if they could find her. The friend was
(05:33):
able to find Louise's truck, but it offered nothing. There
was no sign of a struggle. The doors were locked
and inside were her keys, purse, and overnight bag. It
was as if Louise had vanished without a trace. Here's Leah.
So Brett gets the police involved and a search begins. Now,
(05:56):
while her car would indicate that she would actually have
been the work close by, there was no sign of
her in the woods or even in the nearby river. Okay,
So Brett took the initiative to find her. He made posters,
performed his own searches, and he even waited on the
road where her car was found to ask people driving
and walking by if they knew anything, all to no avail.
(06:19):
Brett also was super active in talking to the press.
He could be seen in interviews saying, I have to
find my sweetie. I have to bring her home. And
it's interesting because I would think Brett would quickly become
suspect number one, because we've seen that in many cases
where the romantic partner is always the first suspect. But
(06:40):
that's not actually what happened. Police definitely looked into Brett.
I mean, like he was a convicted killer, so hello,
obviously he's the first person to look into for a
myriad of reasons. But he was the one who reported
her missing, so that didn't really point towards his guilt.
I mean, there are a lot of times where the
(07:01):
person who's committed the murder would never report the person missing.
So just also remember Louise set him up financially and
so he seemingly had no reason to harm her. You know,
people always check finances as well for a motive, So
we don't have a clear motive yet. Okay, So if
Brett wasn't there number one suspect, then then who was
(07:23):
It seems police were looking at John, who was the
ex boyfriend that Louise went to go visit, but as
we know, she never made it there. But John and
Louise had been in an on again, off again relationship
that ended for good when Brett came into the picture.
So perhaps he was jealous of Brett and he killed
Louise in sort of one of those like if I
(07:43):
can't have you, then no one else can sort of thing.
So it made sense in a way that John had
a motive and he clearly had an opportunity because she
had you know, she was on her way to see him.
John wasn't the only suspect that police were circling it on.
Another suspect that they were looking at was the violent
under the Brett had read it out. Remember, the start
of this whole romance was Brett being a jailhouse informant
(08:05):
to get someone out of prison, and police were thinking
that maybe that man that Brett through under the bus
could have been angry enough to seek revenge against him
by harming his common law wife. Now, Leah and Dmitri,
I mean, you guys cover a lot of crime in
your podcast Real Time Crime. Is this normal that the
police are kind of circling a bunch of different suspects
(08:26):
and kind of crossing people off the list or what
do you make of this started this investigation? Yeah? I
think that they usually do look at a lot of
different suspects, and they always put the person of romantic
interest in the pool, or the family in the pool,
you know, anyone who was super close to the diseased,
(08:47):
or anyone they might have worked with or been around
that evening, and they questioned the last people they came
into contact with. So this is all pretty usual, I
would say. And Dmitrie, what do you think? Yeah. One
of the things that that I focus on a lot
is I don't like when the police go and find
the most obvious person right now and focus solely on that.
(09:10):
So I do appreciate that they're taking all these things
into consideration, and unfortunately Sadly, for Louise, it seems that
a couple of her relationships were abusive relationships. So both
of those guys, you know, there's motive in both of
those and obviously someone that had been read it out
from jail. I think all three suspects are justified to
be looked into, but it's interesting that the police, in
(09:30):
their due diligence, are kind of backing off of the
boyfriend who's also a convict and deciding to look elsewhere.
When you hear a situation like that, it makes you
think that there is a payoff situation, or someone is
close to someone there's a dirty cop, or you know,
there's some sort of handshake situation happening, or my favorite
(09:50):
option is there's something larger at stake, like there's a
marijuana farm being planted somewhere and the police are in
business with this guy, and you know, there's always someone
being protected for illogical reasons until you find out that
it's cocaine, and so, you know, because he had been
on cocaine when he murdered the prostitute, it's not far
off to think that he might be selling drugs to
(10:12):
the cops or vice versa to me if someone's like,
I know we said earlier, like that doesn't seem like
something that the behavior of someone that did it, I
don't know, and someone's like, oh, where is my sweetie?
Oh and asking to me that almost feels I guess
I'm trained to think like that's an act. Sadly, sometimes
it's not an act, and then you end up suspecting
that person anyway. But so I think I would I'd
(10:33):
like to think maybe the police were like, Okay, we're
investigating all of this, but we're not going to let
on to who we're actually considering, right, And I'd like
to see the footage, like how good of an actor
is this guy? I I feel like he was one
of those people that was like, oh, whoa is me?
Where is my sweetie? You know, just a real bad actor.
I mean, I don't know. But but then again, let
(10:56):
me just say this. I think that if you are
so concerned and really actively doubling down on trying to
find the person, it either makes you look so guilty
because you know exactly where the person is, or so innocent.
It's got to be an awkward situation. Well, someone's like,
I know this person thinks I might have done it.
(11:17):
Now what am I doing? Am I doing this too
much that I look guilty? Or am I It's it's
probably tough to wrap your head around, um whether you
know how you're portraying yourself, because you clearly don't want
to be if you didn't do it, you don't want
to be mistaken, and I guess if you did do it,
you also don't want to be found out without a body.
That this is all preliminary and it's hard to even
make an arrest when you don't have a body. As
we all know, the police performed an extensive search on
(11:40):
John's land, which turned up nothing. He also had a
pretty solid alibi, keeping at his parents cottage all weekend
celebrating his daughter's birthday. There were lots of witnesses who
could place him there. As for the violent offender that
Brett had gotten into trouble with, he had been out
of jail at the time, awaiting sentencing, but on April
(12:03):
twenty two, at six ten am, the day Louise went missing,
he was being pulled over for a traffic violation hundreds
of miles away, so he couldn't have done it. The
police were back to square one with no leads. Meanwhile,
someone else was following the case very closely. Here's Dmitri
(12:25):
and that someone was Marie Perrant. She had moved to
Canada like two years prior from Scotland and she was
actually studying to be a private investigator. Now, Louise's car
was found just twenty five minutes from Marie's home, and
so I think she kind of felt drawn to the case.
She hated seeing women being abused and felt that she
needed to try and help in any way that she could,
(12:46):
so as part of her she kind of intertwined that
with her studying, and as part of her final assignment
in her PI training, she took on the case. Now,
much like the police who were back at square one,
she didn't have really an idea of where to start,
so she decided to all Brett straight up and arranged
a meeting with him. The problem is, Marie, like others,
found Brett to be very charming, and she then wanted
(13:09):
to help the man who lost the love of his life.
Like all good narcissists, they are super charming and we
are easily convinced by them. Sounds like that could be
the case here for poor Marie, but she started by
looking at the big picture, so her first thought that
was that was a car jacker. But the town in
which Louise's car was found was mostly unpopulated as the
(13:30):
summer season hadn't begun yet. The car was also locked,
and nothing was stolen, so the car jacker theory didn't
really add up. The more Marie thought about the case,
the more it made sense that someone who knew Louise
was probably behind this. And now she's starting to think
could the police have gotten it wrong? In John the
jealous X where we're going with this? Well. As Marie
(13:52):
was investigating the case more and more, she started talking
to Brett regularly and they stuck up a bit of
a friendship. As part of her investigation, she ended up
recording all of their conversations with him and would then
review them at night. So one night she was reviewing
the tapes and she caught something that could not be ignored.
She had asked Brett about the state of the car,
and primarily she asked him was the seat pushed back
(14:15):
farther than usual, as if someone else besides Louise had
been driving it? And his response sent chills down her spot.
He said it was exactly the way I and then
he sort of stopped himself and started over and said
it was exactly the way Louise left it. Now Marie
could not help but wonder if she had just caught
him in kind of a major slip. We're going to
(14:38):
take a break. We'll be back in just a moment.
The police were looking more into Louise in Brett's life
before her disappearance. They discovered that things hadn't been going
(15:02):
as smoothly as he'd led on. At the time of
her disappearance, Brett oh Louise twenty thousand dollars. In speaking
with the manager at her bank, the police discovered that
she had been growing increasingly concerned that he hadn't paid
her back, calling the manager four to five times a
day and asking if the money had come in. Detectives
(15:22):
also discovered that Brett had been writing himself checks from
Louise's account. He had been doing this by forging her signature.
She would call the bank and sense to the mistake,
and when they figured out it was Brett doing it,
she would make excuses. It seemed like the compassionate and
gentle forty six year old children's spoke author was in
way over her head. The police also uncovered Louise's diary,
(15:48):
and while their friends thought Brett and Louise had such
a solid relationship as most do from the outside, her
words portrayed a very different story than what her friends
had ever a gined. She wrote that just two months
after moving in, Brett became abusive, and the abusive behavior
included Brett pouring beer over her head, punching a hole
(16:08):
through the bathroom door during a fight, and many other
very blatantly abusive acts. And she wrote that she wanted
him to move out and that she wanted to break
up with him. Yeah, Leah, and that's actually not all
of the police uncovered around the same time, they ended
up finding what would become a bit of a smoking
gun for their investigation. Now, if you remember, Brett had
told them that the Saturday Luise was last sing alive,
(16:30):
she left their place at around one or one pm,
but the cops found that her a t M card
was used to withdraw exactly two eighty dollars at two PM.
Now that a t M card was found in her car,
which would imply that it left the house with her,
and the police were able to track down the surveillance
footage from the A t M camera, and sure enough,
(16:51):
on the tape was none other than Luise's partner, Brett Morgan.
That meant that he lied to the police about the
last time he saw her, and if he lied about
at what else could he be lying about. They also
uncovered that in May, right after the murder, Brett also
started to request access to Louise's estate, which, as we know,
is never a good sign. It's beyond not a good sign.
(17:13):
It's basically saying, you know, I'm moving on past this,
the disappearance of my partner, and now I want financial gain.
So it seemed that the once tearful husband Brett now
might have been the killer. Right But like we said before,
without a body, prosecution can't do too much, so you
can't really stick to any charges. The police knew that
they needed more in their pursuit of Brett, so they
(17:35):
bugged his house and started surveillance on him, and that's
how they discovered that he was getting close with Marie Barrant.
The police then reached out to Marie and got Hurt
involved in the investigation, which, as I'm sure an aspiring
private investigator was probably a bit of a dream come true.
She immediately told them about her suspicions of Brett. The
police asked her to help get information, but she decided
(17:58):
to do one better. She actually pledged that she would
get them the body. In June, Marie suggested to Brett
that they go search for Louise, and she had a
listening device in her bag and surveillance on their tail.
The police were tracking bretton Marie as they made their
way to the woods. Since the area was so isolated,
they couldn't get too close though, which kind of left
(18:19):
Marie very much alone with the potential killer. And after
about ninety minutes of driving, Brett pulled over and suggested
that they start searching. That would give me the chills alone,
just him suggesting that they pull over and a random
part of the woods. As they made their way through
the woods, Brett was sopping wet with sweat. He stopped
and he looked at Marie and, apparently with a menacing grin,
(18:43):
told her that the only time he ever got this
sweat he was during sex. Gross like sending a chill
down my spine. And at that moment, I mean, anyone
would realize this. It's like, if this guy wanted to
kill her, the police never could have saved her in time.
She was too far away. He would just do it
(19:03):
right then. And there, poor Marie is left alone in
the woods with this guy because they're they're tailing them,
but they go into the woods and to keep that distance,
they can't just all of a sudden jump out of
a tree. Right. She must have been terrified because she
doesn't know that this guy didn't do it. The moment, however, luckily,
was interrupted by a helicopter flying overhead. So then I
(19:24):
think Brett got a little suspicious, and he asked Marie
if she was an undercover cop. Now, Marie, you know
her quick thinking. She she knew the listening device was
in her bag. So what she held up her hands
and she said, listen, if you want to pat me down,
you can. So he started to and then he stopped,
and he said that he trusted her, luckily, because I mean,
what happened if he said let me check your back,
you know, at that point that was enough to spook him,
(19:46):
and he told her that the search was over. We
call her a private investigator, but she's barely won. She's
not even an officially one. This is her final assignment.
I mean, she's a regular person now being involved with
this very scary police investigation. What do you what do
you guys make of that? Well, it's interesting because our
podcast started with the Gabby Potito Brian Laundry case, and
(20:06):
the whole point of it was that the entire Internet
turned into social sluits and people wanted to go out
and search for Brian Laundry. People wanted to go out
and search for Gabby Potito, and so it's almost like
regular people all the time want to get involved because
people want justice, people want answers. I mean, it seems
(20:27):
like she had taken this to the next level of
what we have seen so far. If I were her,
I would have been terrified. Well that's it. I mean, like,
like you said, the social sluths, that's great, but you're
sitting at home looking at stuff and then you know,
putting out TikTok's this woman went into the woods for
(20:47):
you said it was, you know, her final assignment for
for school. It could have been her final assignment ever,
because she went into the woods with this guy and
and clearly you know enough to be saying the enough
inappropriate or weird stuff to put her on guard. I mean,
I don't know. I give her, I give her props
for for being brave and and for going through with that,
(21:08):
but it had to have been terrifying. I mean, it's
it seems like the equivalent of letting a medical student,
you know, do a heart transplant for their final exam,
instead of having it be a licensed doctor. How did
the police do that? Right? Right? The police are usually
very specific or very careful when they put someone into
a situation, like we're gonna put a wire on you,
but don't worry. But they literally put her in a
(21:29):
arm in harm's way here, right because they were following,
so they were aware of this. They let her go
far enough into the woods with this guy and we're like, well,
we're willing to roll the dice with Marie. Is basically
what they said. Yeah, that is really odd. Weeks passed
and Brett had become skittish. He stopped returning marie calls
and refused to go on any more searches. The police
(21:50):
decided to use Louise's money as bait. Investigators told Brett
that Louise couldn't be declared dead without a body. That
meant that despite being her air, he wasn't able to collect.
Growing desperate for cash, Brett started to sell off Louise's
personal items. One night, Marie finally got Bread to meet
her at a bar over drinks. He asked her how
(22:12):
he could trust her. They looked at each other and
a moment of tension was building. He leaned over the
table and got close to her face. Marine knew this
was a make or break moment, and she had to
do what a police officer would never dare. So in
the dark bar, she kissed Bread. The kiss is obviously
very unconventional for a police officer or p I student,
(22:36):
I would imagine, but you know, at times like this,
when when your life is on the line, the case
on the line, I guess you do what you gotta do.
I think that this is another case of doubling down,
exactly the way that he doubled down, and you know,
acting desperate and trying to lead searches for her dead body.
She doubled down on being like, no, you can trust me,
I'm not a cop here. I'll show you. I'll kiss
(22:58):
you as soon as she came into picture, right, Marie,
they said she developed a friendship. She wanted to help
this guy who lost the love of his life. She
said she thought he was charming, right, So then at
that point I was like, oh gosh, does she fall
for this guy? Is he's one of those guys with
the charming because now she may have thought he was innocent,
but now she's clearly got questions because he's kind of
freaking her out. So the question is, was she just
(23:19):
playing this the whole time? Was she just like, I
gotta get this guy to trust me from the get go,
and maybe she maybe she didn't find him charming. Either way,
it's it's a ballsy move on Maries Bart. The move
seemed to work because as the night was ending, Brett
calmed down and actually agreed to go on another search.
So on July seven, the pair went back into the woods.
(23:41):
During the search, Brett was teasing Marie with questions, asking
if she was nervous, and at one point, as they
made their way through the thick brush, Brett told Marie
to be careful of barbed wire. She immediately, you know,
pinned on that, because how would he have known the
barbed wire was there if he had never been there?
At this point, he's like, hey, let's go searching in
so you think either a he wants his money so
(24:02):
he's going to find the body, right, or be he
wants to off me. And when he said that about
the barbed wire, she her heart must have sunk into
her stomach. Fortunately, and unfortunately, finally in the clearing, Marie
spotted Louise's body. She looked over at Brett, who, interestingly enough,
was not looking at the corpse of his wife, but
(24:24):
rather directly at Marie. She ran to him, grabbed his
shoulders and proclaimed, we did it, you know, like we
found her. But to take this to a creepier level,
at that point, Brett was still only staring at Marie,
and it seemed perhaps he was debating on whether or
not he would have to kill her. Eventually that that
trance that he had on her broke and he began
(24:45):
to cry. He ran to Louise's body and started sobbing
and begging her to wake up. So, after Marie calmed
Brett down a little bit, they made their way back
to the car, drove back to town, and later that afternoon,
Brett went to the police and reported Luise's body, and
instead of being thanked and kind of celebrated. Brett was
(25:05):
actually arrested for the crime. So the police already had
an official theory, and that was that on the morning
of April, Louise was getting ready to go visit on
for the birthday party, and Brett attacked her in the bath.
They think that he strangled her to death, wrapped her
body in a shower curtain, and then put her in
(25:25):
the truck's trunk, drove her out to the woods, and
dumped her in the clearing where Marie would later find
her body. And then after all that was said and done,
he wrote his bicycle back home and then waited to
call the police. Let's stop here for another break. I
(25:57):
wonder if Marie had not gotten involved, if police ever
would have connected the dots, and if Brett would have
been vulnerable enough to locate the body. I think that
he didn't think through the fact that if they didn't
find a body, he wouldn't get the money, because even
though he was the heir, they need a body, and
so he was just scrounging for money. And I think
(26:21):
Marie was the only person he felt safe around, and
he was just kind of praying she wasn't a cop.
And then she kissed him, and then I think he
felt like he needed someone and so this was a
last resort. Maybe he thought he outsmarted her and led
her right to the body. He could have gotten away
(26:42):
with it if he didn't need the money so badly,
I think so. I think most of the credit obviously
goes to Marie for really putting herself out there and
getting close to this guy. That's something that the police
would not have been able to do. She probably even
made Brett think that she was trying to clear his name.
But I think as much as we want answers quickly,
I think Marie got his trust and then waited for
(27:04):
the slip ups and the mistakes. It really goes to
Marie's slow playing. This is what I think solved this case.
Although he maintained his innocence, Brett was charged with first
degree murder, and at his trial that lasted six months,
he was found guilty. Brett was sentenced to life in
prison with no possibility of parole for twenty five years.
(27:27):
The police also suspected he was responsible for two unsolved
murders from the nineteen seventies. As she wrapped up her
first and very successful investigation, Marie asked the police to
send one final message to the man she'd grown close
with and ultimately helped put away. How does it feel
to be taken down by a woman? Sadly, the message
(27:50):
was never delivered to him, as Brett Morgan died in
prison of hepatitisy just two months after being convicted. Marie
was awarded for hundred dollars for her help. She eventually
moved back to Scotland. As for at least a woman
once full of so many promises, her memory lives alive
(28:10):
in a Canadian monument dedicated to commemorating women who were murdered.
I wanted to ask you guys with Real Time Crime,
is there anything coming up? What can we expect next
for the podcast? What can you tease us with? So?
On our podcast Real Time Crime, we have exclusive interviews
with incredible directors or cast members of documentaries for true
(28:32):
crime that will come out a week later after our episode,
so you hear it first. On our podcast, you hear
exclusive interviews with people who have the inside scoop on
all of the juicy details. So make sure to tune
into Real Time Crime if you like to have all
the information at the palm of your fingertips before it
gets released. Yeah, and and unfortunately, the crime to keep happening,
(28:55):
so we're never at a loss for stuff to talk about.
Leah is a writer at dress, producer, director, stand up comedian,
and clubhouse app influencer. She also hosts the R Heart
Media podcast Real Time Crime, which is available to download now.
You can find Leah on Instagram at Leah Lamar. Dmitri
(29:18):
is a comedy writer and consultant with over twenty five
years in the entertainment industry. He's a producer and co
host of the I Heart Media podcast Real Time Crime.
You can find him on Instagram at Dmitri pappas shameless Plug.
If you're enjoying Crazy and Love, leave us a review
and listen to season three of our hit series The
(29:39):
Piked and Massacre. New episodes there every Wednesday wherever you
get your podcasts, and don't forget to follow us on
Instagram at Katie Underscore Studios. Crazy and Love is produced
by Stephanie Lydecker, Jeff Shane, Chris Grieves and me Courtney Armstrong.
Editing and sound designed by Jeff ba. Crazy in Love
(30:02):
is a production of I Heart Radio and Katie Studios.
For more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the I
heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows. Stay safe, lovers,
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