April 12, 2022 • 43 mins
Joining us is Jason Newland, an investigator with the Leon county state's attorney's office in Tallahassee, Florida. Jason has intimate knowledge of today’s case as he was one of the cold case investigators who helped solve it. In conversation with Jason is producer Cris Graves.
Mike Williams was 31 years-old and had everything he’d ever wanted. A former high-school football player, he’d married Denise Merrell, his cheerleader girlfriend in 1994. Five years later, they welcomed their daughter into the world and Mike couldn’t wait to have more children. But he didn’t know that trouble was brewing under the surface of his marriage and one chilly morning in December of 2000, while on a duck hunt, he’d come face to face with true evil.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Falling in love is the best feeling in the world.
You see stars, you feel giddy, But sometimes that makes
you do crazy things, and sometimes that means murder. Just
because the story starts out with once upon a Times
doesn't mean it ends happily ever after. Welcome to Crazy
and Love, a production of Katie Studios and I Heart Radio.
(00:25):
Today's guests are true crime producer Chris Graves and Jason Newland.
Jason is an investigator with the Leon County States Attorney's
Office in Tallahassee, Florida. He was integral and ultimately solving
this complex case episode twenty two, the Case of the
hard working Husband, the wicked Widow, and the Alligator Alibi.
(00:52):
Growing up, Mike Williams always had dreams, but not the
kind most kids wish for. He didn't aspire to go
to space or be a famous actor. Mike schools were
much more grounded. He hoped for a stable career, a
loving wife, and a beautiful home. Perhaps his rather unassuming
wants stemmed from his humble beginnings. Mike's father was a
(01:16):
greyhound bus driver. His mother worked at a daycare. The
Williams family lived in a double wide trailer outside of Tallahassee, Florida.
All the while Mr and Mrs Williams squirreled away money,
hoping to save enough to help Mike and his brother
with their educations. Throughout high school, mikeer and straight a's,
played on the football team and worked after school at
(01:38):
a grocery store. Through all his hard work, Mike did
manage to find some time for girls. Entered Denise. Tall
and blonde, Denise was a cheerleader, the perfect counter to
Mike the football player. One night, after a winning game,
Mike got off the courage to ask Denise out. Both
were sporty and popular, and they were the envy of
(02:01):
everyone in school. Mike also had a best friend, Brian Winchester.
Like Mike, Brian played on the football team and had
a serious girlfriend, Kathy. The two couples became a tight
foursome which continued into adulthood as they all stayed in
the Tallahassee area. In Mike and Denise got married just
(02:22):
a few months after Brian and Cathy. Five years later,
Mike and Denise welcomed a daughter. Mike worked as a
property appraiser while Denise stayed home. Mike loved his wife.
He loved his life. At thirty one, he couldn't help
but feel proud. All of his dreams had seemingly come true.
(02:44):
Here's Chris. Mike worked really hard to maintain his dream
life as a property appraiser. You were, you raped in
about two grand a year, which quite a lot of money,
but that money came with a cost. To earn that money,
Mike felt he needed to work and soon now hours
and I think he actually probably just loved to work.
He would go into the office before dawn, he'd work
all day, come home, he'd make dinner, and then once
(03:07):
Denise and his child were asleep, he would go to
work more. It was so bad that his boss had
to take away the office keys so that Mike wouldn't
come in on the weekends. Apparently, and while Denise liked
her comfortable lifestyle and not surprisingly, took a toll on
their relationship. So, Jason, what can you tell me about Mike?
(03:28):
Everything you said is one hunts in accurate. He worked
too hard, but he also loved Denise to know in
on those days where he would be at work on
a regular day, the middle of the day, Denise would
run out of gas. She needed gas. She called the office,
Michael Stoppoli to him to help fulfill up the gas.
Everybody in that office talked about their relationship and how
(03:49):
he would beend over backwards to keep perhap. Did Denise
ever expressed to Mike that he was working too much
in her viewpoint? Did hear some rumors throughout the investigation
from everybody that knew both sides that his work damaged
the relationship as much as it helped provide for it
and not being home as a young cop, I wanted
(04:09):
to work. I wanted to work because I wanted to promote,
and I wanted to move up in this career and
it was fun. Mike's parents worked to provide for the kids,
and Mike was going to do the same thing. He
was going to provide for her, and provide for Annesley,
or provide for the children. She was working to stay
at home mom. She didn't have to work because he
was so successful. I truly don't believe he felt like
(04:30):
he was doing wrong, And I don't think she ever
conveyed to him, Hey, I need you here, I'd rather
you be home. On December six, two thousand, Mike and
Denise were planning on celebrating their six wedding anniversary. They're
going to enjoy a weekend away in the small fishing
town of Appalachicola, about ninety minutes from their home. Mike
(04:52):
had a lot to look forward to. He and Denisa
talked about starting to try for baby number two on
the trip, something Mike was or four. That morning, Mike
wanted to go on a quick duck hunting expedition, which
had become his favorite pastime. He figured he would have
time to hit the water hunt for a bit, and
then make it back for their romantic getaway. Mike left
(05:14):
at dawn, telling Denise he'd be back in a few hours,
but by noon there was no sign of him. Nervous,
Denise called Mike's best friend, Brian. She asked if he
could go and check on Mike's hunting spot. Of course,
he wanted to help, and so Brian and his father
drove about an hour to Lake Seminole, which is where
Mike always hunted. On their way to the lake, Brian
(05:38):
and his father noticed that local law enforcement was out
looking for Mike. When the pair arrived, they immediately joined
the search quickly. Mike's truck was located in its usual spot,
Shortly after, a helicopter found Mike's boat drifting in the lake.
His shotgun was sitting undisturbed in the hole, but there
(05:59):
was no sign of like, here's Chris Jason, what do
you know about what happened immediately after Mike went missing?
So here's where my career actually takes an interesting path
with this case. I started with the Fishing Wildlife Commission
in two thousand and two, so when I was in
the academy, we had the instructors roll through, and the
(06:19):
first responder on this case, Auten Renewed, was one of
my instructors in the academy. The case was less than
eighteen months old when we started the academy, and he
talked about this case, so I knew about the case
back nineteen years ago, shortly after it happened. But in
a situation like this, they responded to a missing duck.
(06:40):
I happened to respond to those myself later in my career.
Man fell overboard. It's cold, You're gonna search and you
hope you find them alive. You're gonna search for a
couple of days, and then at some point you know
it's cold, and when it's cold, it takes people a
little bit longer to surface after they drowned and when
(07:00):
it's warm. So in these situations that used a couple
of weeks, everybody talked about might be in an avid
duck hunter and abbot outdoors man and understanding the water.
This was his little special place to go hunt. Yeah,
some people can survive. We have ten shows about it. Now,
that's what everybody was hoping was happening at this time.
Ten days after he's gone missing, they find his hat
(07:22):
floating on the water, which is about two weeks after.
Like you were saying, you would hope that you'd find
his body, but in this case, they just found his hat.
It was assumed at first that Mike had drowned in
the lake. You know, it's cold, he might have fallen,
maybe he couldn't get himself back into the boat. The
area of the lake Mike was last seen was about
six to eight feet deep. But Mike was wearing waiting boots,
(07:44):
so the fear was that maybe when he fell in
the water, his boots filled up. Waiters and waiting boots
they're like misconception as to what they actually are, so
they're almost like a full overall. They go all the
way up above the waist to your chest, and then
they'll snap across your shoulder like overalls. They initially suction
cup two. When you get in the water, they just
(08:05):
they just grab hold of you and keep the water out.
But if you get too far in the water, they'll
pressed over the top of it, and then you start
to fill you up and there's no coming out of
it because the suction effect is the same trying to
pull them off, because it is to put them on
and especially under the water. And so that's a duck
hunter's worst nightmares to fall over in their waiters because
you fill up even a lack chack. That was a
(08:28):
fear of everybody's. They thought that's what might have happened
to Mica. They did so f WC there a Wildlife
Enforcement agents investigating crimes and homicides. It's not in port.
They weren't looking for a missing boater. You don't find
them immediately, and your helicopter doesn't see, you know, something
suspicious when you kind of just call it a day,
come back out when the sunshine comes up tomorrow. I've
(08:50):
been looking enough flying the helicopters and locate subjects and
situations like this. And you can find them in the
air and if they're not there, something is suspicious. And
this water was six eight deep in certain places, but
in other places it was one to two feet or
there was stumps that just at the edge of the surface.
You know, to the free entrance. Do you hold out hope,
but after a while you have to change course. You
(09:10):
call an f ANDW Fishing Wildlife, it's the Florida Fish
and Wildlife Conservation Commission. They were the initial law enforcement
unit that responded to Mike. It wasn't like a homicide
unit from the police department or anything. There was no
homicide unit that responded. This was merely a missing person,
a missing voter. And most agencies, particularly in the county
(09:31):
that this one occurred in in Jackson County, their sheriff's
offices were small and they don't have a lot of water,
so they don't have a lot of water resources fish
and wildlife. That's what we did. We had every piece
of equipment who think they needed for a water search
and rescue water mission, whatever it may be, to include helicopters.
In this North Florida region, Leon Counties one of the
(09:52):
few agencies small shaff office that actually has helicopters outside
of a state lone agents. Okay, so two weeks general,
your body would surface, but a body doesn't in this case,
what are you thinking? I mean, this isn't normal, right,
when a body goes down, it doesn't move. Revert cases
where they're in the river and the body goes down
and you find it within feet of where they're drowning,
(10:14):
and they don't move, and that's why you have a boat.
It maybe drifted, maybe the wind blew it, but in
this situation, you would have expected something to show up
or at least see it by helicopter. After two to
three weeks, something should be visible by them. So this
is gator infested water? Is big gators from that area.
Maybe that's what happened. They got hungry and took them
(10:36):
because gators too, they eat when it's warm. That day
Mike and then went hunting was warm that day the
search and rescue started. You don't know, So the prevailing
theory after the body didn't show up was that he
might have been eaten by an alligator. In the interviews
that we did on this case, I think I kind
of figured out where it started, and I do believe
it started at the law enforcement level. The reason they
(10:58):
couldn't find Mike was that he was consumed by an
allogy totally feasible by the size the alligators in that lake.
There musters, there's record breakers that come up in the
lakes and rivers in that general area. The alligator theory
just spread and continue to spread, and I think some
others started to go a little relief that Okay, we
(11:18):
got a story, we're gonna stick to it. It colored
the investigation to probably for quite a while. Yeah, they
put a damper on any type of investigation. Even when
you talk to experts, they will tell you that alligators
don't generally eat when it's cold. What they will as
law enforcement in northern Florida is the theory that involves
an alligator far fetched. Alligators are involved in a lot
(11:41):
of cases in Florida. General in North Florida don't have
a hold of it. Do you have plenty of alligators
up here, But I don't know if the interaction with
them is different or what. Generally the interaction humans have
with alligators ends up in a limnus or a bite.
If you don't know, we see the whole body soon.
(12:02):
What kind of decision goes into when a search could
be continued or scaled back. From a law enforcement standpoint,
A lot of it depends on, you know, conditions, preparations, survivability.
What's the length of time that you would expect somebody
to survive to survive in those situations this one, I
(12:22):
actually think the search and rescue went on a little
longer than most would. It was up to three weeks
of the rescue mission before it was scaled back slightly
to a search and recovery mission. What are you feeling
when you hear a story like this? Face value? This
is a tragedy. This guy went hunting, fell out, and
(12:43):
didn't make it well. Denise cut a low profile during
the search. When she heard it was called off, she
feared for the worst. Denise planned a memorial service where
Mike's closest friends and family gathered to say goodbye. It
seemed like Denise was hoping to close this tragic chapter
of her life. However, there was one person who could
(13:03):
not accept that Micah drowned his brother, Cheryl. Cheryl knew
her son Mike was an avid hunter who knew how
to take care of himself out in the welchness, and
even if he had drowned, where was his body? Cheryl wondered.
She started a grassroots campaign, handing out flyers, paying for
billboards and TV ads, all demanding answers, here's Jason. Cheryl
(13:28):
was relentless. She did not stop for pursuit of closure.
In this case, Cheryl, she knew her son. I have
to tell the story at this point because it fits best.
When Mike first got into duck hunt, he was about
fourteen years old, and they had a family friend who
took him out duck hunt for the first time, and
it was immediate that Mike was booked. Their family friend
(13:50):
knew that, alright, fourteen, I'm gonna be taking with me
for a while, but I'm going to teach him a
few of the safety measures that he needs to know.
One of the things that he taught him the family
had a pool in their backyard. Mike and Cheryl and
this guy actually spent time with him learning how to
get out of waiters if you fell on the water
in the pool, and he said, by the end of
(14:12):
about two days of working on it, he knew how
to shed them down to a certain part of your
body where you could at least get your hands, go
and get float and you get back to the top
at least catch a breath, because he taught him you
can get the waiters off if you're completely under the water,
but if you're on the top of the water trying
to shed him and panicking, they don't come off. Cheryl
knew he knew that because she watched him do that,
(14:32):
and it was something she required him to do before.
He was going to keep duckcotting when he was fourteen, fifteen,
sixteen years old, and then eventually he went, you know,
started duck hunting by himself, and for sixteen seventeen years
he duck hunted numerous times and never had any issues.
She knew his anniversary was coming up. She knew he
was talking about having you know, more of a family,
(14:55):
and he was just happy living in good life. That
he ran duck hunting. He was gonna come home, he
was gonna because he had somewhere to be that afternoon
in athletic Ole, and it just did not sit well
with them when he didn't show up, When we didn't
find the body of the searches. She always thought she's
gonna find it. A love that was always her home,
(15:16):
which granted it would be all of ours. And I
think deep down she knew the worst, but she always
wished she was going to find him, and she wasn't
going to stop until she did. For years, she would
walk beside of Thomas Billbroad, one of our busiest streets
in Tallahassee, and she would hold signs up on the anniversary.
She would put newspaper ads and where is he? Have
(15:36):
you seen? And never let the town forget. She never stopped.
She wrote letters to the governor. I think it was
every day of like a five year period. She wrote
almost eighteen hundred letters until the case was opened as
a criminal investigation by the failing And we have always
she was going to get her point across, and she did.
She's just gonna be a champion for her son, and
(15:57):
listened to her intuition. And so Dese was of wants
to stay at home mom, And now how she's supporting
herself without this hard working husband. Well, it turns out
that nineteen days after Mike disappeared, Denise petition to have
him declared debt so she could collect his life insurance
policy to the tune of one point seven five million dollars.
(16:19):
That's quite a sum. Mike was smart and thoughtful family man,
so he had set up a policy with his friends,
Brian's firm that would ensure that his wife and daughter
would be taken care of, So Jason, people don't take
kindly to life insurance policies in these types of situations.
How was the community feeling about Denise at this point?
(16:41):
Those who knew them closely, and I will say this
to include her sister's brother in law, I thought something
was up. They didn't like the way that things went
the day he went missing. And then when she files
for the player who deceased nineteen days later, there's still
people certain and she's folently the flare in the seat,
(17:02):
and then Alexa and then point seven five millions of
life insurance policies. Red flags went up everywhere the life insurance.
I think it triggered a lot of people to flit
from poor Michael missing to something happening. We're going to
take a break. We'll be back in just a moment.
(17:36):
Is there anything specific detectives look at when a large
life insurance policy payout is involved. Yes, we do. Firstly,
you know when was it created, how much was it for,
was it changed, was it renewed, was it adjusted in
any way? Who the recipients are? Was the recipient added?
(17:56):
Was a recipient removed? In this situation? Who created it?
You look at all of it? How often are life
insurance policies involved in cases that you were investigating? I
actually have one right now that is a triple homicide
investigation and a life insurance policies involvement. And it's eerily
similar in the time framework when it was created. Who
(18:18):
was created for? And we created still pending case. We
have a really good idea, but you definitely go there.
In two thousand and four, after Mike's mother, Cheryl's continued
please the case was reopened. The biggest thing police found
this time around was that the leading theory about how
m My died did not add up. It turns out
(18:40):
there was no way alligators could have been the culprint
in December when Mike disappeared. With the temperatures in the fifties,
alligators were hibernating. They would not come out to feed
until temperatures hit around eighty eight degrees. This case is
a perfect scenario of this is Florida. It was about
seventy seventy eight. I don't know. It was hot the
(19:04):
day before this case for the data, and then a
storm rolled through and it was in the thirties less
than twenty four hours later. It's Florida with a ring
on one side of the road tracts and not on
the other. The weather, you know, determining when wildlife are
gonna eat. It's hard to predict too, because none of
it's predictable down here. But also I think Cheryl did
(19:24):
talk to like an expert right who kind of came
in with that theory. Cheryl talked to everybody she could
think we talked to. She truly felt that the story
of alligators was called to her to appease her. This
is the best answer we can give. Sorry, I don't
have any more, but the best answer I can give
you is probably an any and she would get her
own reserve. She found somebody that said alligators aren't gonna
(19:48):
come feed in thirty two degree weather. But the case
was reopened. Correct, That's when you came in right in
about twenty and is when HI came right out. So
the cases being passed onto the next guy trying to
find answers. Denise Mike's former wife is moving on with
his best friend, Brian. Five years after his disappearance, Denise
(20:11):
and Brian got married. Brian even moved in to what
was once his best friend's house. While the rumor mill
was an overdrive, the police didn't have a body, so
the investigation was an uphill battle and the case was
closed again when they got married. The room mills that
overdrive as an understatement. I think even some of the
(20:31):
true believers that believe Mike this was an accident change
their opinion. I think there was maybe one or two
people that still believed this was an accident. And Brian
and Denise got married, there was a big ship. In
two thousand and seven, per his family's request, Denise returned
all of Mike's guns to them. However, Mike's brother noticed
(20:55):
that one gun was missing. Through a court order, Mike's
family was able to retrieve that gun from Denise. The
looming question was why she had kept it Around the
same time, the case was reopened again, but this time
police found something that they unlike that supposed alligator could
finally sink their teeth into. Everybody started looking at the
(21:17):
insurance policies. Something didn't match up. It wasn't a whole
lot that we could work with, but it was something
is off here. Why do we have an insurance that
was ready to inspire came? It was made a lot
of suspicious activity on one particular insurance in the end
or one point seven five millions divided amongst the week
(21:39):
different policies. It just looks suspicious. I assume when you
went to look at who helped Mike with that insurance
policy that brand alarm bills too? Right, Yeah, you can
go tryan interview Brian. Good luck. Everybody has the right
to romain silent this guy. We had an ability to
do so. Brian, his best friend who is now married
(22:01):
to his widow, is the one who helped with the
life insurance policy, right he is. There was also an
unearthed nine one one call from before the disappearance. Someone
reported what they thought was an abandoned car in a
church parking lot. Police looked up the plate and the
car belonged to Brian. They called his wife and she
(22:22):
said Brian was out of the state that week for work.
When cops arrived to the church, the car was gone,
and it was believed that Brian and Denise were hooking
up in that car. Do you have anything to say
about that or no? Nineteen years later I called that
officer she remember they liked yesterday called her and talked
to she was Yeah, he was at the church off
in the city and fatal strucle. I remember you remember
(22:45):
that guy? I knew it in if something was that well,
the nature of the grieving widow and best friend's relationship
began to unravel, so did the current state of their marriage.
After eleven years together, to Nice filed for divorce. She
cited Brian's sex addiction as the main cause of their separation.
(23:08):
Brian was desperate and angry, and one morning he broke
into Denise's car as Denise drove to work. Brian popped
up and attacked her. He held Denise at gunpoint for hours,
begging her to stay with him. Denise was finally able
to calm him down and de escalate the situation. She
(23:28):
got him out of her car. Although Denise promised Brian
in the moment that she wouldn't go to the police,
and in fact had no intention of alerting the authorities,
when Denise told her sister what happened, she forced Denise
to call the police. She then made shore. Denise follow
through and went to the police station to file a report.
(23:50):
Denise's brother in law happened to be a police officer,
and he escorted her down to the station himself. When
officers arrested Brian, they found bottles of bleach and at
harp in his car, suggesting he had nefarious plans for
his soon to be ex wife. Brian was charged with kidnapping,
domestic assault, and burglary. He faced life in prison. So
(24:14):
the day after Brian was sentenced officially, he held a
surprise news conference. Seventeen years after disappearing, Mike's body had
been found. This is kind of where you come into this, right,
This is right where I come in and see this
kidnapping occurred. There's no doubt about it. And he jumped
up from the back of the bar, came into the
middle seat. Tell her at one point go around town
(24:36):
for a while. We tried to get some videos of
those of her and Walgreens and CBS. I think it
was odd for her to not talk to her sister
every day. Her sister tried calling her any morning. She
didn't answer the phone, so her sister thought something wrong.
She went looking for her. She passed her on the
road she shouldn't be on at that time of day.
(24:58):
That's when they interacted. That's and she aldre what happened Investrom.
They said, Brian got arrested for this kidnapping. And the
first thing, every one of us, somebody needs to sit
it out right now. This is now's your chance. And
she's gonna tell us, tell us now. And that's what
we did. And she I don't know what you're talking about.
She came off with nothing. And Brian, he was lowyer
(25:20):
enough on everything, so we weren't going to get at
His attorney approached our office and he's like, probably something
you guys want to know about. What kind of negotiations
can we have? The attorneys negotiated this case. While they
were negotiating the case, there was another jail house snitch.
I hate it. I hate jail how snitches, but sometimes
(25:41):
they did give you just enough to get you over her.
And in this situation, the jail health smitch came over
and told us that Brian's recruiting him to go do
some things on the outside to create another alibi for kidnapping,
to create stories about the niece, and that he had
a cousin was supposed to meet him and getting money.
(26:02):
He identified the cousin and the lineup, he described the
truck that he was driving, and we hit pause right there. Well,
then F D L. E and SHARE's office and I
think we need worked this a little bit further. It
was at that point that the negotiations for the police
started to pick up a little bit more. The agreement
was made that you will tell us what you know
(26:24):
about a missing person takes That was kind of what
we left. Everybody knew we're talking about Mike Williams, but
we never specifically said we're talking about my food. The
agreement was that when we would not seek life and
the kidnapping case, and he would tell us what he
knew about disappearance and my Williams or the disappearance he
was missing. First the day he came over here and
(26:44):
sat down in the interview room and sat down face
to face, and I'll never forget it. I just looked
at and I was like, this is your story, fella,
and he just really wanting to start from the beginning
when he started telling you. My partner, as I understand,
sitting next to me and took everything I had and
I sitting are you listening to this? I don't believe
(27:06):
he's telling this, And oh my gosh, it was still
to this day I sit there. I wish I could
have seen my book on my face, because I know
I was trying to keep things together, write little notes down,
but not look like I was overly interested in the act.
She could be part of the conversation. It was an
interesting too, plus outs. I mean, that's every investigator's kind
(27:29):
of dream, right, that somebody finally just talks and tells
you something about a case from seventeen years ago. You know,
when we went into this, it was a risk of
we just entered into free negotiation with a homicide suspect
that will never be able to prosecute. It was a
huge risk. And you know, I will say John fus
across Heater on it. I think he's the only one
(27:51):
in the opposite would have made the decision to do.
You knew what he was getting into the end, it
was worth it. Let's stop here for another break. So
(28:16):
in May, on the way to pick up her daughter
from a birthday dinner, Denise was arrested and charged with
first degree murder, conspiracy to commit first degree murder and
accessory after the fact. What does all of that mean?
And first degree murder first agree murder in the state
of Florida in for a couple of ways, one as
pre meditation, the other is during the commission of a
(28:38):
belmy um. In this situation, we clearly had a premeditated murder.
Conspiracy to commit first gree murder is it kind of
comes with the name. You and I conspire to have
somebody killed, whether we do it ourselves or have somebody
else do it. That's where you get tied into a conspiracy.
Accessory after the fact is anything you did to assist
(28:59):
in hiding the homicide, whether it be an actual act
or an act of admission, you can still be account
the precessory af effect. And those are all three the
charges of the Grand tour in May a few thousand
and eight. And once that indictment was signed, it becomes
an active part. And she was located at work, sitting
(29:22):
at her desk or State University in the account of department.
And when the police officers walked in, she non Schwak,
got up, put her hands liner back, walked up the door.
It was not a what are you here for? What
are you doing. Oh my god, I have nothing to
do with this. It was like, I mean, as soon
as we announced the body was found, I think their
(29:42):
death order. Yeah, this is what is your reaction to
somebody's committed one crime and they're kind of getting themselves
off of that crime by admitting to the other crime
that you can't really give him the proper sentence for either,
right at that point. By this point, I was well
acquainted of Cheryl, and you knew how much effort she
(30:03):
had put into finding her son, and all she wanted
was closure. She wanted to know what happened, and we
wanted to provide the opportunity for them to have the
proper barrel and proper services for her son. That was
one of the riskiest moves. I don't think we'll ever
have one go down like this again, at least while
I'm working it. Literally made a deal with the devil.
(30:25):
I mean, there was a chance that Brian was going
to tell me this was entirely his idea, that Denise
Williams had zero to do with this, and we were
literally gonna let him murder a walk free just to
close out this part of you know, just to close
bring closure for Cheryl too, the whole family, everybody that
(30:46):
wanted to know, the whole community. That was how did
it happen? You did it? Where did it happen. There's
days where I look back and I'm like, Wow, that
is a cold blood and murderer that set right next
to me, shout has been friends in the face. I
can't process that. I don't know that I have a
will process that. The way he told the story, it
(31:07):
was one of those ones everybody says, you have to
sit there, you have to do there, and you have
to watch him do it, or I can't do it
justice And that was a fear we had headed into trial.
Was he gonna be able to actually come across and
tell the story the same way he did us. So, Jason,
can you tell me what when Brian did, in fact
sit down and you and your partner were listening to
(31:28):
this confession, what did he lay out for you? So
if he started with the affair, from there, the two
started a relationship. I think they went out on a
double date one night and both families and then he
and Denise went back out after Kathy and Mike both
at the time, and that's when it started. It started
(31:50):
with a simple kiss, and then that led to the
sneaking out that led to the affair progressing. It led
to you Brian actually trying to get his wife involved
in this relationship, and then Denise never tried to bring
Mike into it. Hers was I don't want to be
married to Mike anymore. But Denise came from a very
(32:15):
religious family. Divorce was not gonna happen in this household.
I think her having to go tell her parents she
was getting divorced in her mind was worse than having
from her. The only thing I can make him make sense.
So the two of them start discussing plans on how
to murder of Mike, and Denis's, well, we're getting get
(32:35):
rid of Mike. You gotta do something about Cathie. We
can get married. And there was a plan to all
go vote riding one day and the two of them
fall over. Denise and Brian stay on the vote and survived,
and Brian's like, I don't know. I guess he does
have something, and the idea that duck hunt came up.
(32:58):
He said, let's take a duck ut pushing overboard people
drowned in its waiters was the home he was a
portion of Brian's confession and his proper statement stay attorney's office.
We're here to take a proper from Brown Winchester. We
launched the boat. It was just like a hunting trup.
(33:20):
Was supposed to be the plan. The plan that was
discussed and come up with was that he was going
to be wearing waiters, and the belief it was somebody
falls in the water with waiters, you're going down. So
(33:44):
we went out like we were going honey. We got
to the area where his waiters and jacket were found.
I got him to stand up and I pushed him
into the wall her He he got his jacket off
(34:05):
and his wayers off, and he was in a panic. Obviously,
I was in a panic. I was dropping the boat
and I didn't. I didn't. I didn't know what to do,
(34:27):
and I ended up shooting him. About two weeks before
this actually occurred, Brian and Mike, we're gonna go up
because it was when it was supposed to happen, and
Denise said, no, I gave it stop. Fast forward to
the week before the murder. Their anniversary is coming up
(34:48):
and Brian tells him that there's the thought of Denise
and Mike hadn't gone chrystogether. It's from a week and
together and try to make a kid. It just she
didn't want anything to do with it, and she said
it's got to happen. I don't want to go on
the stript him. So they got approval for him each
each other. Michael checked it from me, hey, and they
(35:09):
go hunting with Brian before we go on the anniversary
trip that she like. Of course, so Brian has might
need him at a store where they would normally right together,
and made him drive separately. But he also didn't bring
a cell phone with him, so there was no way
for him to communicate. But they drive the lake Seminole
(35:31):
and they get in the water and they go to hunting.
They get out on the boat Brian, which is Mike
over and Mike doesn't seek it doesn't crown, And when
Brian circled him a few times with the boat and
Mike was trying to swim over to him, Mike actually
(35:52):
found a stump, grab hold the stump, and Brian pulled
up to him and shot him straight in the face.
It was then that Brian realized, I can't leave him here.
I have to take him with me, so Brian essentially
drags him next to the boat, which is when the
waiters came off with the body. They just as the
(36:13):
boat drug waiters came off, Brian gets in the shore,
puts him in the back of his truck, partially in
a dog kennel that Brian had in the back of
the suburban. He moves Mike's truck to a boat landing
a little a different boat landing, and then he walks
back to his truck and use the area. Brian actually
(36:37):
went home, got in bed, went back to sleep, and
then later that day goes to Walmart and grabs art.
Graham said, wait, grab the shovel and bunch green and
supplies the take markets. Crazy. My body is still in
(36:59):
the back of the suburb. He was inside his house
moving next to his wife. He has no ideas. After
going to Walmart, he decides to drive to another lake
here in Tallassey. He went home cleaning out his truck
and on the search prob how to Lake Smole. And
(37:20):
he spent the next several weeks trying to help with
the search. And remember him telling us that, you know,
he's pretty sure if Denise's sister knew something was wrong,
And at one point I do remember looking at Brian
and I was like, I feel like you're minimizing to
niece's involved, and he says, no, I'm really not. I
(37:45):
said this, Denise know how he died, and she said no,
as far as Denise was concerned, he died because I
pushed them overboard. He drowned. It wasn't until after the
proper with Brian that the whole world found out what
she shot his best friends. He took you guys out
to where he buried him. Right. We asked him, do
(38:07):
you think you can take us to him? We had
the corroborating store. I still needed a body to prove it.
He wasn't line us at this point. He's lied for
sixteen years. Why not put another day? He drove him
just at the courthouse, and myself as attorney, and the
other investigators for Brian in the front seat with me
drove down the road. So we drove up already in roads,
(38:30):
the gardener landing down at the end of the road.
It goes from pavement down to this little dirt mud
fit almost. He's like, all right, let's get out right here.
He gets out of the car and he starts looking
around and said, you know what, it's gonna be right
in this area. How can you tell because because there
(38:50):
was three trees, and he described the trees, and at
that point we stopped everything and took him back. And
this is where I can't believe this didn't get out.
We dropped the search warrant, got a search warrant for
the property. We can actually grabbed Leon County's road maintenance
crew with some excavators and tractors and made them signed
(39:13):
waves It said you're not gonna tell anybody you're here
because you don't know what you're doing. They started digging
and digging and digging, and they went inch fight in
just moving there, moving there, and moving there. I got
ahead of myself because they brought into Faber Dollars prior
to gets Nabor dolls a literally in that area. Two.
(39:35):
After digging for about a week with twenty four hour
surveillance and twenty four hour pumps keeping water out of
the area, one of the excavators took the edge of
the cart and it pulled it up just briefly, and
I think at that point they realized what they were
there for, and one of the guys actually put on running,
(39:58):
get what anything to do? Now that's pulling the body
out of the ground. It was the last day we
were done. We were in in this search. We weren't
gonna dig anymore. We're gonna call his bluff and you're like,
full craft, it's gonna try. We offer we ads off
the table, cheer enough. Everything we find only was exactly
how it was crack and he had the bullet wound
(40:22):
two right in school. Yes, you can tell it was
shot of the shot. You finally found Mike. And you
were going to not only be able to give Cheryl
closure for a case, right at least now she can
bury her son and know exactly what happened. Yes, that's
what we were able to do. It was closure for
a lot. We actually told Denise and Cheryl at the
(40:44):
same time. It's a two separate groups. Woman to Cheryl's house,
woman to Denise's house, the victim's advocate that went to
Denise's house. She describes it. She wasn't shop, she wasn't sad.
He was like, okay, not where, not how? But we
finally had the closure that she reserved. Gerald, particularly, she
(41:06):
didn't give up. Had she not walked the streets wrote
written as letters and literally been a nuisance. We wouldn't
but there's a sense of relief for her. Now we
can move on to a new chapter. And she said
that actually, now we can move on to a new chapter,
we can find another fight, whatever it will be. Despite
(41:30):
proclaiming her innocence, after just eight hours of deliberation, Denise
was found guilty of all charges and sentenced to life
in prison for kidnapping Denise Bryan was sentenced to twenty
years in prison. In January. Denise appealed to conviction and
life sentence. Her attorney argued that there was no evidence
(41:51):
she was involved in the murder, and while the murder
conviction was in fact overturned, the conspiracy to commit murder
conviction was up held, which included the thirty year sentence
that accompanied it. Denise remains behind bars shameless plug. If
(42:12):
you're enjoying crazy and Love, leave us a review. Season
three of the Piked and Massacre Returned to Bike County
is in the works. We want to hear from you
for the upcoming season. Do you have a story to
tell a connection to Pike County or is there another
case local to Pike County? That you can't let go of.
(42:32):
Please email info at Katie dash Studios dot com and
don't forget to follow us on Instagram at Katie Underscore Studios.
Crazy and Love is produced by Stephanie Lydecker, Jeff Shane,
Chris Graves, and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound design
(42:53):
by Jeff Twa. Crazy and Love is a production of
I Heart Radio and Katie Studios. For more podcast from
I heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Stay safe, lovers,
Falling in love is the best feeling in the world.
You see stars, you feel giddy, But sometimes that makes
you do crazy things, and sometimes that means murder. Just
because the story starts out with once upon a Times
doesn't mean it ends happily ever after. Welcome to Crazy
and Love, a production of Katie Studios and I Heart Radio.
(00:25):
Today's guests are true crime producer Chris Graves and Jason Newland.
Jason is an investigator with the Leon County States Attorney's
Office in Tallahassee, Florida. He was integral and ultimately solving
this complex case episode twenty two, the Case of the
hard working Husband, the wicked Widow, and the Alligator Alibi.
(00:52):
Growing up, Mike Williams always had dreams, but not the
kind most kids wish for. He didn't aspire to go
to space or be a famous actor. Mike schools were
much more grounded. He hoped for a stable career, a
loving wife, and a beautiful home. Perhaps his rather unassuming
wants stemmed from his humble beginnings. Mike's father was a
(01:16):
greyhound bus driver. His mother worked at a daycare. The
Williams family lived in a double wide trailer outside of Tallahassee, Florida.
All the while Mr and Mrs Williams squirreled away money,
hoping to save enough to help Mike and his brother
with their educations. Throughout high school, mikeer and straight a's,
played on the football team and worked after school at
(01:38):
a grocery store. Through all his hard work, Mike did
manage to find some time for girls. Entered Denise. Tall
and blonde, Denise was a cheerleader, the perfect counter to
Mike the football player. One night, after a winning game,
Mike got off the courage to ask Denise out. Both
were sporty and popular, and they were the envy of
(02:01):
everyone in school. Mike also had a best friend, Brian Winchester.
Like Mike, Brian played on the football team and had
a serious girlfriend, Kathy. The two couples became a tight
foursome which continued into adulthood as they all stayed in
the Tallahassee area. In Mike and Denise got married just
(02:22):
a few months after Brian and Cathy. Five years later,
Mike and Denise welcomed a daughter. Mike worked as a
property appraiser while Denise stayed home. Mike loved his wife.
He loved his life. At thirty one, he couldn't help
but feel proud. All of his dreams had seemingly come true.
(02:44):
Here's Chris. Mike worked really hard to maintain his dream
life as a property appraiser. You were, you raped in
about two grand a year, which quite a lot of money,
but that money came with a cost. To earn that money,
Mike felt he needed to work and soon now hours
and I think he actually probably just loved to work.
He would go into the office before dawn, he'd work
all day, come home, he'd make dinner, and then once
(03:07):
Denise and his child were asleep, he would go to
work more. It was so bad that his boss had
to take away the office keys so that Mike wouldn't
come in on the weekends. Apparently, and while Denise liked
her comfortable lifestyle and not surprisingly, took a toll on
their relationship. So, Jason, what can you tell me about Mike?
(03:28):
Everything you said is one hunts in accurate. He worked
too hard, but he also loved Denise to know in
on those days where he would be at work on
a regular day, the middle of the day, Denise would
run out of gas. She needed gas. She called the office,
Michael Stoppoli to him to help fulfill up the gas.
Everybody in that office talked about their relationship and how
(03:49):
he would beend over backwards to keep perhap. Did Denise
ever expressed to Mike that he was working too much
in her viewpoint? Did hear some rumors throughout the investigation
from everybody that knew both sides that his work damaged
the relationship as much as it helped provide for it
and not being home as a young cop, I wanted
(04:09):
to work. I wanted to work because I wanted to promote,
and I wanted to move up in this career and
it was fun. Mike's parents worked to provide for the kids,
and Mike was going to do the same thing. He
was going to provide for her, and provide for Annesley,
or provide for the children. She was working to stay
at home mom. She didn't have to work because he
was so successful. I truly don't believe he felt like
(04:30):
he was doing wrong, And I don't think she ever
conveyed to him, Hey, I need you here, I'd rather
you be home. On December six, two thousand, Mike and
Denise were planning on celebrating their six wedding anniversary. They're
going to enjoy a weekend away in the small fishing
town of Appalachicola, about ninety minutes from their home. Mike
(04:52):
had a lot to look forward to. He and Denisa
talked about starting to try for baby number two on
the trip, something Mike was or four. That morning, Mike
wanted to go on a quick duck hunting expedition, which
had become his favorite pastime. He figured he would have
time to hit the water hunt for a bit, and
then make it back for their romantic getaway. Mike left
(05:14):
at dawn, telling Denise he'd be back in a few hours,
but by noon there was no sign of him. Nervous,
Denise called Mike's best friend, Brian. She asked if he
could go and check on Mike's hunting spot. Of course,
he wanted to help, and so Brian and his father
drove about an hour to Lake Seminole, which is where
Mike always hunted. On their way to the lake, Brian
(05:38):
and his father noticed that local law enforcement was out
looking for Mike. When the pair arrived, they immediately joined
the search quickly. Mike's truck was located in its usual spot,
Shortly after, a helicopter found Mike's boat drifting in the lake.
His shotgun was sitting undisturbed in the hole, but there
(05:59):
was no sign of like, here's Chris Jason, what do
you know about what happened immediately after Mike went missing?
So here's where my career actually takes an interesting path
with this case. I started with the Fishing Wildlife Commission
in two thousand and two, so when I was in
the academy, we had the instructors roll through, and the
(06:19):
first responder on this case, Auten Renewed, was one of
my instructors in the academy. The case was less than
eighteen months old when we started the academy, and he
talked about this case, so I knew about the case
back nineteen years ago, shortly after it happened. But in
a situation like this, they responded to a missing duck.
(06:40):
I happened to respond to those myself later in my career.
Man fell overboard. It's cold, You're gonna search and you
hope you find them alive. You're gonna search for a
couple of days, and then at some point you know
it's cold, and when it's cold, it takes people a
little bit longer to surface after they drowned and when
(07:00):
it's warm. So in these situations that used a couple
of weeks, everybody talked about might be in an avid
duck hunter and abbot outdoors man and understanding the water.
This was his little special place to go hunt. Yeah,
some people can survive. We have ten shows about it. Now,
that's what everybody was hoping was happening at this time.
Ten days after he's gone missing, they find his hat
(07:22):
floating on the water, which is about two weeks after.
Like you were saying, you would hope that you'd find
his body, but in this case, they just found his hat.
It was assumed at first that Mike had drowned in
the lake. You know, it's cold, he might have fallen,
maybe he couldn't get himself back into the boat. The
area of the lake Mike was last seen was about
six to eight feet deep. But Mike was wearing waiting boots,
(07:44):
so the fear was that maybe when he fell in
the water, his boots filled up. Waiters and waiting boots
they're like misconception as to what they actually are, so
they're almost like a full overall. They go all the
way up above the waist to your chest, and then
they'll snap across your shoulder like overalls. They initially suction
cup two. When you get in the water, they just
(08:05):
they just grab hold of you and keep the water out.
But if you get too far in the water, they'll
pressed over the top of it, and then you start
to fill you up and there's no coming out of
it because the suction effect is the same trying to
pull them off, because it is to put them on
and especially under the water. And so that's a duck
hunter's worst nightmares to fall over in their waiters because
you fill up even a lack chack. That was a
(08:28):
fear of everybody's. They thought that's what might have happened
to Mica. They did so f WC there a Wildlife
Enforcement agents investigating crimes and homicides. It's not in port.
They weren't looking for a missing boater. You don't find
them immediately, and your helicopter doesn't see, you know, something
suspicious when you kind of just call it a day,
come back out when the sunshine comes up tomorrow. I've
(08:50):
been looking enough flying the helicopters and locate subjects and
situations like this. And you can find them in the
air and if they're not there, something is suspicious. And
this water was six eight deep in certain places, but
in other places it was one to two feet or
there was stumps that just at the edge of the surface.
You know, to the free entrance. Do you hold out hope,
but after a while you have to change course. You
(09:10):
call an f ANDW Fishing Wildlife, it's the Florida Fish
and Wildlife Conservation Commission. They were the initial law enforcement
unit that responded to Mike. It wasn't like a homicide
unit from the police department or anything. There was no
homicide unit that responded. This was merely a missing person,
a missing voter. And most agencies, particularly in the county
(09:31):
that this one occurred in in Jackson County, their sheriff's
offices were small and they don't have a lot of water,
so they don't have a lot of water resources fish
and wildlife. That's what we did. We had every piece
of equipment who think they needed for a water search
and rescue water mission, whatever it may be, to include helicopters.
In this North Florida region, Leon Counties one of the
(09:52):
few agencies small shaff office that actually has helicopters outside
of a state lone agents. Okay, so two weeks general,
your body would surface, but a body doesn't in this case,
what are you thinking? I mean, this isn't normal, right,
when a body goes down, it doesn't move. Revert cases
where they're in the river and the body goes down
and you find it within feet of where they're drowning,
(10:14):
and they don't move, and that's why you have a boat.
It maybe drifted, maybe the wind blew it, but in
this situation, you would have expected something to show up
or at least see it by helicopter. After two to
three weeks, something should be visible by them. So this
is gator infested water? Is big gators from that area.
Maybe that's what happened. They got hungry and took them
(10:36):
because gators too, they eat when it's warm. That day
Mike and then went hunting was warm that day the
search and rescue started. You don't know, So the prevailing
theory after the body didn't show up was that he
might have been eaten by an alligator. In the interviews
that we did on this case, I think I kind
of figured out where it started, and I do believe
it started at the law enforcement level. The reason they
(10:58):
couldn't find Mike was that he was consumed by an
allogy totally feasible by the size the alligators in that lake.
There musters, there's record breakers that come up in the
lakes and rivers in that general area. The alligator theory
just spread and continue to spread, and I think some
others started to go a little relief that Okay, we
(11:18):
got a story, we're gonna stick to it. It colored
the investigation to probably for quite a while. Yeah, they
put a damper on any type of investigation. Even when
you talk to experts, they will tell you that alligators
don't generally eat when it's cold. What they will as
law enforcement in northern Florida is the theory that involves
an alligator far fetched. Alligators are involved in a lot
(11:41):
of cases in Florida. General in North Florida don't have
a hold of it. Do you have plenty of alligators
up here, But I don't know if the interaction with
them is different or what. Generally the interaction humans have
with alligators ends up in a limnus or a bite.
If you don't know, we see the whole body soon.
(12:02):
What kind of decision goes into when a search could
be continued or scaled back. From a law enforcement standpoint,
A lot of it depends on, you know, conditions, preparations, survivability.
What's the length of time that you would expect somebody
to survive to survive in those situations this one, I
(12:22):
actually think the search and rescue went on a little
longer than most would. It was up to three weeks
of the rescue mission before it was scaled back slightly
to a search and recovery mission. What are you feeling
when you hear a story like this? Face value? This
is a tragedy. This guy went hunting, fell out, and
(12:43):
didn't make it well. Denise cut a low profile during
the search. When she heard it was called off, she
feared for the worst. Denise planned a memorial service where
Mike's closest friends and family gathered to say goodbye. It
seemed like Denise was hoping to close this tragic chapter
of her life. However, there was one person who could
(13:03):
not accept that Micah drowned his brother, Cheryl. Cheryl knew
her son Mike was an avid hunter who knew how
to take care of himself out in the welchness, and
even if he had drowned, where was his body? Cheryl wondered.
She started a grassroots campaign, handing out flyers, paying for
billboards and TV ads, all demanding answers, here's Jason. Cheryl
(13:28):
was relentless. She did not stop for pursuit of closure.
In this case, Cheryl, she knew her son. I have
to tell the story at this point because it fits best.
When Mike first got into duck hunt, he was about
fourteen years old, and they had a family friend who
took him out duck hunt for the first time, and
it was immediate that Mike was booked. Their family friend
(13:50):
knew that, alright, fourteen, I'm gonna be taking with me
for a while, but I'm going to teach him a
few of the safety measures that he needs to know.
One of the things that he taught him the family
had a pool in their backyard. Mike and Cheryl and
this guy actually spent time with him learning how to
get out of waiters if you fell on the water
in the pool, and he said, by the end of
(14:12):
about two days of working on it, he knew how
to shed them down to a certain part of your
body where you could at least get your hands, go
and get float and you get back to the top
at least catch a breath, because he taught him you
can get the waiters off if you're completely under the water,
but if you're on the top of the water trying
to shed him and panicking, they don't come off. Cheryl
knew he knew that because she watched him do that,
(14:32):
and it was something she required him to do before.
He was going to keep duckcotting when he was fourteen, fifteen,
sixteen years old, and then eventually he went, you know,
started duck hunting by himself, and for sixteen seventeen years
he duck hunted numerous times and never had any issues.
She knew his anniversary was coming up. She knew he
was talking about having you know, more of a family,
(14:55):
and he was just happy living in good life. That
he ran duck hunting. He was gonna come home, he
was gonna because he had somewhere to be that afternoon
in athletic Ole, and it just did not sit well
with them when he didn't show up, When we didn't
find the body of the searches. She always thought she's
gonna find it. A love that was always her home,
(15:16):
which granted it would be all of ours. And I
think deep down she knew the worst, but she always
wished she was going to find him, and she wasn't
going to stop until she did. For years, she would
walk beside of Thomas Billbroad, one of our busiest streets
in Tallahassee, and she would hold signs up on the anniversary.
She would put newspaper ads and where is he? Have
(15:36):
you seen? And never let the town forget. She never stopped.
She wrote letters to the governor. I think it was
every day of like a five year period. She wrote
almost eighteen hundred letters until the case was opened as
a criminal investigation by the failing And we have always
she was going to get her point across, and she did.
She's just gonna be a champion for her son, and
(15:57):
listened to her intuition. And so Dese was of wants
to stay at home mom, And now how she's supporting
herself without this hard working husband. Well, it turns out
that nineteen days after Mike disappeared, Denise petition to have
him declared debt so she could collect his life insurance
policy to the tune of one point seven five million dollars.
(16:19):
That's quite a sum. Mike was smart and thoughtful family man,
so he had set up a policy with his friends,
Brian's firm that would ensure that his wife and daughter
would be taken care of, So Jason, people don't take
kindly to life insurance policies in these types of situations.
How was the community feeling about Denise at this point?
(16:41):
Those who knew them closely, and I will say this
to include her sister's brother in law, I thought something
was up. They didn't like the way that things went
the day he went missing. And then when she files
for the player who deceased nineteen days later, there's still
people certain and she's folently the flare in the seat,
(17:02):
and then Alexa and then point seven five millions of
life insurance policies. Red flags went up everywhere the life insurance.
I think it triggered a lot of people to flit
from poor Michael missing to something happening. We're going to
take a break. We'll be back in just a moment.
(17:36):
Is there anything specific detectives look at when a large
life insurance policy payout is involved. Yes, we do. Firstly,
you know when was it created, how much was it for,
was it changed, was it renewed, was it adjusted in
any way? Who the recipients are? Was the recipient added?
(17:56):
Was a recipient removed? In this situation? Who created it?
You look at all of it? How often are life
insurance policies involved in cases that you were investigating? I
actually have one right now that is a triple homicide
investigation and a life insurance policies involvement. And it's eerily
similar in the time framework when it was created. Who
(18:18):
was created for? And we created still pending case. We
have a really good idea, but you definitely go there.
In two thousand and four, after Mike's mother, Cheryl's continued
please the case was reopened. The biggest thing police found
this time around was that the leading theory about how
m My died did not add up. It turns out
(18:40):
there was no way alligators could have been the culprint
in December when Mike disappeared. With the temperatures in the fifties,
alligators were hibernating. They would not come out to feed
until temperatures hit around eighty eight degrees. This case is
a perfect scenario of this is Florida. It was about
seventy seventy eight. I don't know. It was hot the
(19:04):
day before this case for the data, and then a
storm rolled through and it was in the thirties less
than twenty four hours later. It's Florida with a ring
on one side of the road tracts and not on
the other. The weather, you know, determining when wildlife are
gonna eat. It's hard to predict too, because none of
it's predictable down here. But also I think Cheryl did
(19:24):
talk to like an expert right who kind of came
in with that theory. Cheryl talked to everybody she could
think we talked to. She truly felt that the story
of alligators was called to her to appease her. This
is the best answer we can give. Sorry, I don't
have any more, but the best answer I can give
you is probably an any and she would get her
own reserve. She found somebody that said alligators aren't gonna
(19:48):
come feed in thirty two degree weather. But the case
was reopened. Correct, That's when you came in right in
about twenty and is when HI came right out. So
the cases being passed onto the next guy trying to
find answers. Denise Mike's former wife is moving on with
his best friend, Brian. Five years after his disappearance, Denise
(20:11):
and Brian got married. Brian even moved in to what
was once his best friend's house. While the rumor mill
was an overdrive, the police didn't have a body, so
the investigation was an uphill battle and the case was
closed again when they got married. The room mills that
overdrive as an understatement. I think even some of the
(20:31):
true believers that believe Mike this was an accident change
their opinion. I think there was maybe one or two
people that still believed this was an accident. And Brian
and Denise got married, there was a big ship. In
two thousand and seven, per his family's request, Denise returned
all of Mike's guns to them. However, Mike's brother noticed
(20:55):
that one gun was missing. Through a court order, Mike's
family was able to retrieve that gun from Denise. The
looming question was why she had kept it Around the
same time, the case was reopened again, but this time
police found something that they unlike that supposed alligator could
finally sink their teeth into. Everybody started looking at the
(21:17):
insurance policies. Something didn't match up. It wasn't a whole
lot that we could work with, but it was something
is off here. Why do we have an insurance that
was ready to inspire came? It was made a lot
of suspicious activity on one particular insurance in the end
or one point seven five millions divided amongst the week
(21:39):
different policies. It just looks suspicious. I assume when you
went to look at who helped Mike with that insurance
policy that brand alarm bills too? Right, Yeah, you can
go tryan interview Brian. Good luck. Everybody has the right
to romain silent this guy. We had an ability to
do so. Brian, his best friend who is now married
(22:01):
to his widow, is the one who helped with the
life insurance policy, right he is. There was also an
unearthed nine one one call from before the disappearance. Someone
reported what they thought was an abandoned car in a
church parking lot. Police looked up the plate and the
car belonged to Brian. They called his wife and she
(22:22):
said Brian was out of the state that week for work.
When cops arrived to the church, the car was gone,
and it was believed that Brian and Denise were hooking
up in that car. Do you have anything to say
about that or no? Nineteen years later I called that
officer she remember they liked yesterday called her and talked
to she was Yeah, he was at the church off
in the city and fatal strucle. I remember you remember
(22:45):
that guy? I knew it in if something was that well,
the nature of the grieving widow and best friend's relationship
began to unravel, so did the current state of their marriage.
After eleven years together, to Nice filed for divorce. She
cited Brian's sex addiction as the main cause of their separation.
(23:08):
Brian was desperate and angry, and one morning he broke
into Denise's car as Denise drove to work. Brian popped
up and attacked her. He held Denise at gunpoint for hours,
begging her to stay with him. Denise was finally able
to calm him down and de escalate the situation. She
(23:28):
got him out of her car. Although Denise promised Brian
in the moment that she wouldn't go to the police,
and in fact had no intention of alerting the authorities,
when Denise told her sister what happened, she forced Denise
to call the police. She then made shore. Denise follow
through and went to the police station to file a report.
(23:50):
Denise's brother in law happened to be a police officer,
and he escorted her down to the station himself. When
officers arrested Brian, they found bottles of bleach and at
harp in his car, suggesting he had nefarious plans for
his soon to be ex wife. Brian was charged with kidnapping,
domestic assault, and burglary. He faced life in prison. So
(24:14):
the day after Brian was sentenced officially, he held a
surprise news conference. Seventeen years after disappearing, Mike's body had
been found. This is kind of where you come into this, right,
This is right where I come in and see this
kidnapping occurred. There's no doubt about it. And he jumped
up from the back of the bar, came into the
middle seat. Tell her at one point go around town
(24:36):
for a while. We tried to get some videos of
those of her and Walgreens and CBS. I think it
was odd for her to not talk to her sister
every day. Her sister tried calling her any morning. She
didn't answer the phone, so her sister thought something wrong.
She went looking for her. She passed her on the
road she shouldn't be on at that time of day.
(24:58):
That's when they interacted. That's and she aldre what happened Investrom.
They said, Brian got arrested for this kidnapping. And the
first thing, every one of us, somebody needs to sit
it out right now. This is now's your chance. And
she's gonna tell us, tell us now. And that's what
we did. And she I don't know what you're talking about.
She came off with nothing. And Brian, he was lowyer
(25:20):
enough on everything, so we weren't going to get at
His attorney approached our office and he's like, probably something
you guys want to know about. What kind of negotiations
can we have? The attorneys negotiated this case. While they
were negotiating the case, there was another jail house snitch.
I hate it. I hate jail how snitches, but sometimes
(25:41):
they did give you just enough to get you over her.
And in this situation, the jail health smitch came over
and told us that Brian's recruiting him to go do
some things on the outside to create another alibi for kidnapping,
to create stories about the niece, and that he had
a cousin was supposed to meet him and getting money.
(26:02):
He identified the cousin and the lineup, he described the
truck that he was driving, and we hit pause right there. Well,
then F D L. E and SHARE's office and I
think we need worked this a little bit further. It
was at that point that the negotiations for the police
started to pick up a little bit more. The agreement
was made that you will tell us what you know
(26:24):
about a missing person takes That was kind of what
we left. Everybody knew we're talking about Mike Williams, but
we never specifically said we're talking about my food. The
agreement was that when we would not seek life and
the kidnapping case, and he would tell us what he
knew about disappearance and my Williams or the disappearance he
was missing. First the day he came over here and
(26:44):
sat down in the interview room and sat down face
to face, and I'll never forget it. I just looked
at and I was like, this is your story, fella,
and he just really wanting to start from the beginning
when he started telling you. My partner, as I understand,
sitting next to me and took everything I had and
I sitting are you listening to this? I don't believe
(27:06):
he's telling this, And oh my gosh, it was still
to this day I sit there. I wish I could
have seen my book on my face, because I know
I was trying to keep things together, write little notes down,
but not look like I was overly interested in the act.
She could be part of the conversation. It was an
interesting too, plus outs. I mean, that's every investigator's kind
(27:29):
of dream, right, that somebody finally just talks and tells
you something about a case from seventeen years ago. You know,
when we went into this, it was a risk of
we just entered into free negotiation with a homicide suspect
that will never be able to prosecute. It was a
huge risk. And you know, I will say John fus
across Heater on it. I think he's the only one
(27:51):
in the opposite would have made the decision to do.
You knew what he was getting into the end, it
was worth it. Let's stop here for another break. So
(28:16):
in May, on the way to pick up her daughter
from a birthday dinner, Denise was arrested and charged with
first degree murder, conspiracy to commit first degree murder and
accessory after the fact. What does all of that mean?
And first degree murder first agree murder in the state
of Florida in for a couple of ways, one as
pre meditation, the other is during the commission of a
(28:38):
belmy um. In this situation, we clearly had a premeditated murder.
Conspiracy to commit first gree murder is it kind of
comes with the name. You and I conspire to have
somebody killed, whether we do it ourselves or have somebody
else do it. That's where you get tied into a conspiracy.
Accessory after the fact is anything you did to assist
(28:59):
in hiding the homicide, whether it be an actual act
or an act of admission, you can still be account
the precessory af effect. And those are all three the
charges of the Grand tour in May a few thousand
and eight. And once that indictment was signed, it becomes
an active part. And she was located at work, sitting
(29:22):
at her desk or State University in the account of department.
And when the police officers walked in, she non Schwak,
got up, put her hands liner back, walked up the door.
It was not a what are you here for? What
are you doing. Oh my god, I have nothing to
do with this. It was like, I mean, as soon
as we announced the body was found, I think their
(29:42):
death order. Yeah, this is what is your reaction to
somebody's committed one crime and they're kind of getting themselves
off of that crime by admitting to the other crime
that you can't really give him the proper sentence for either,
right at that point. By this point, I was well
acquainted of Cheryl, and you knew how much effort she
(30:03):
had put into finding her son, and all she wanted
was closure. She wanted to know what happened, and we
wanted to provide the opportunity for them to have the
proper barrel and proper services for her son. That was
one of the riskiest moves. I don't think we'll ever
have one go down like this again, at least while
I'm working it. Literally made a deal with the devil.
(30:25):
I mean, there was a chance that Brian was going
to tell me this was entirely his idea, that Denise
Williams had zero to do with this, and we were
literally gonna let him murder a walk free just to
close out this part of you know, just to close
bring closure for Cheryl too, the whole family, everybody that
(30:46):
wanted to know, the whole community. That was how did
it happen? You did it? Where did it happen. There's
days where I look back and I'm like, Wow, that
is a cold blood and murderer that set right next
to me, shout has been friends in the face. I
can't process that. I don't know that I have a
will process that. The way he told the story, it
(31:07):
was one of those ones everybody says, you have to
sit there, you have to do there, and you have
to watch him do it, or I can't do it
justice And that was a fear we had headed into trial.
Was he gonna be able to actually come across and
tell the story the same way he did us. So, Jason,
can you tell me what when Brian did, in fact
sit down and you and your partner were listening to
(31:28):
this confession, what did he lay out for you? So
if he started with the affair, from there, the two
started a relationship. I think they went out on a
double date one night and both families and then he
and Denise went back out after Kathy and Mike both
at the time, and that's when it started. It started
(31:50):
with a simple kiss, and then that led to the
sneaking out that led to the affair progressing. It led
to you Brian actually trying to get his wife involved
in this relationship, and then Denise never tried to bring
Mike into it. Hers was I don't want to be
married to Mike anymore. But Denise came from a very
(32:15):
religious family. Divorce was not gonna happen in this household.
I think her having to go tell her parents she
was getting divorced in her mind was worse than having
from her. The only thing I can make him make sense.
So the two of them start discussing plans on how
to murder of Mike, and Denis's, well, we're getting get
(32:35):
rid of Mike. You gotta do something about Cathie. We
can get married. And there was a plan to all
go vote riding one day and the two of them
fall over. Denise and Brian stay on the vote and survived,
and Brian's like, I don't know. I guess he does
have something, and the idea that duck hunt came up.
(32:58):
He said, let's take a duck ut pushing overboard people
drowned in its waiters was the home he was a
portion of Brian's confession and his proper statement stay attorney's office.
We're here to take a proper from Brown Winchester. We
launched the boat. It was just like a hunting trup.
(33:20):
Was supposed to be the plan. The plan that was
discussed and come up with was that he was going
to be wearing waiters, and the belief it was somebody
falls in the water with waiters, you're going down. So
(33:44):
we went out like we were going honey. We got
to the area where his waiters and jacket were found.
I got him to stand up and I pushed him
into the wall her He he got his jacket off
(34:05):
and his wayers off, and he was in a panic. Obviously,
I was in a panic. I was dropping the boat
and I didn't. I didn't. I didn't know what to do,
(34:27):
and I ended up shooting him. About two weeks before
this actually occurred, Brian and Mike, we're gonna go up
because it was when it was supposed to happen, and
Denise said, no, I gave it stop. Fast forward to
the week before the murder. Their anniversary is coming up
(34:48):
and Brian tells him that there's the thought of Denise
and Mike hadn't gone chrystogether. It's from a week and
together and try to make a kid. It just she
didn't want anything to do with it, and she said
it's got to happen. I don't want to go on
the stript him. So they got approval for him each
each other. Michael checked it from me, hey, and they
(35:09):
go hunting with Brian before we go on the anniversary
trip that she like. Of course, so Brian has might
need him at a store where they would normally right together,
and made him drive separately. But he also didn't bring
a cell phone with him, so there was no way
for him to communicate. But they drive the lake Seminole
(35:31):
and they get in the water and they go to hunting.
They get out on the boat Brian, which is Mike
over and Mike doesn't seek it doesn't crown, And when
Brian circled him a few times with the boat and
Mike was trying to swim over to him, Mike actually
(35:52):
found a stump, grab hold the stump, and Brian pulled
up to him and shot him straight in the face.
It was then that Brian realized, I can't leave him here.
I have to take him with me, so Brian essentially
drags him next to the boat, which is when the
waiters came off with the body. They just as the
(36:13):
boat drug waiters came off, Brian gets in the shore,
puts him in the back of his truck, partially in
a dog kennel that Brian had in the back of
the suburban. He moves Mike's truck to a boat landing
a little a different boat landing, and then he walks
back to his truck and use the area. Brian actually
(36:37):
went home, got in bed, went back to sleep, and
then later that day goes to Walmart and grabs art.
Graham said, wait, grab the shovel and bunch green and
supplies the take markets. Crazy. My body is still in
(36:59):
the back of the suburb. He was inside his house
moving next to his wife. He has no ideas. After
going to Walmart, he decides to drive to another lake
here in Tallassey. He went home cleaning out his truck
and on the search prob how to Lake Smole. And
(37:20):
he spent the next several weeks trying to help with
the search. And remember him telling us that, you know,
he's pretty sure if Denise's sister knew something was wrong,
And at one point I do remember looking at Brian
and I was like, I feel like you're minimizing to
niece's involved, and he says, no, I'm really not. I
(37:45):
said this, Denise know how he died, and she said no,
as far as Denise was concerned, he died because I
pushed them overboard. He drowned. It wasn't until after the
proper with Brian that the whole world found out what
she shot his best friends. He took you guys out
to where he buried him. Right. We asked him, do
(38:07):
you think you can take us to him? We had
the corroborating store. I still needed a body to prove it.
He wasn't line us at this point. He's lied for
sixteen years. Why not put another day? He drove him
just at the courthouse, and myself as attorney, and the
other investigators for Brian in the front seat with me
drove down the road. So we drove up already in roads,
(38:30):
the gardener landing down at the end of the road.
It goes from pavement down to this little dirt mud
fit almost. He's like, all right, let's get out right here.
He gets out of the car and he starts looking
around and said, you know what, it's gonna be right
in this area. How can you tell because because there
(38:50):
was three trees, and he described the trees, and at
that point we stopped everything and took him back. And
this is where I can't believe this didn't get out.
We dropped the search warrant, got a search warrant for
the property. We can actually grabbed Leon County's road maintenance
crew with some excavators and tractors and made them signed
(39:13):
waves It said you're not gonna tell anybody you're here
because you don't know what you're doing. They started digging
and digging and digging, and they went inch fight in
just moving there, moving there, and moving there. I got
ahead of myself because they brought into Faber Dollars prior
to gets Nabor dolls a literally in that area. Two.
(39:35):
After digging for about a week with twenty four hour
surveillance and twenty four hour pumps keeping water out of
the area, one of the excavators took the edge of
the cart and it pulled it up just briefly, and
I think at that point they realized what they were
there for, and one of the guys actually put on running,
(39:58):
get what anything to do? Now that's pulling the body
out of the ground. It was the last day we
were done. We were in in this search. We weren't
gonna dig anymore. We're gonna call his bluff and you're like,
full craft, it's gonna try. We offer we ads off
the table, cheer enough. Everything we find only was exactly
how it was crack and he had the bullet wound
(40:22):
two right in school. Yes, you can tell it was
shot of the shot. You finally found Mike. And you
were going to not only be able to give Cheryl
closure for a case, right at least now she can
bury her son and know exactly what happened. Yes, that's
what we were able to do. It was closure for
a lot. We actually told Denise and Cheryl at the
(40:44):
same time. It's a two separate groups. Woman to Cheryl's house,
woman to Denise's house, the victim's advocate that went to
Denise's house. She describes it. She wasn't shop, she wasn't sad.
He was like, okay, not where, not how? But we
finally had the closure that she reserved. Gerald, particularly, she
(41:06):
didn't give up. Had she not walked the streets wrote
written as letters and literally been a nuisance. We wouldn't
but there's a sense of relief for her. Now we
can move on to a new chapter. And she said
that actually, now we can move on to a new chapter,
we can find another fight, whatever it will be. Despite
(41:30):
proclaiming her innocence, after just eight hours of deliberation, Denise
was found guilty of all charges and sentenced to life
in prison for kidnapping Denise Bryan was sentenced to twenty
years in prison. In January. Denise appealed to conviction and
life sentence. Her attorney argued that there was no evidence
(41:51):
she was involved in the murder, and while the murder
conviction was in fact overturned, the conspiracy to commit murder
conviction was up held, which included the thirty year sentence
that accompanied it. Denise remains behind bars shameless plug. If
(42:12):
you're enjoying crazy and Love, leave us a review. Season
three of the Piked and Massacre Returned to Bike County
is in the works. We want to hear from you
for the upcoming season. Do you have a story to
tell a connection to Pike County or is there another
case local to Pike County? That you can't let go of.
(42:32):
Please email info at Katie dash Studios dot com and
don't forget to follow us on Instagram at Katie Underscore Studios.
Crazy and Love is produced by Stephanie Lydecker, Jeff Shane,
Chris Graves, and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound design
(42:53):
by Jeff Twa. Crazy and Love is a production of
I Heart Radio and Katie Studios. For more podcast from
I heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Stay safe, lovers,
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