August 8, 2025 • 46 mins
He's accused of being a serial killer, but some of his co-workers gave him a nickname, Sexy Rexy.
Reportely, Rex Heuerman was the 'perfect' co-worker and 'life of the party. Now more potential new witnesses have come forward with information connecting Heuermann to the Long Island Serial Killer murders.
One of the witnesses worked in a bank during the day and drove a taxicab at night. She signed an affidavit that she picked up Shannan Gilbert from a Sayville motel, but when she got the order from dispatch, was told the person she was picking up was so afraid she was hiding in a locked bathroom.
The rider would only come out if the taxi driver flashes her lights and beeps the horn. The cab driver says she showed up to the motel, flashed her lights, and beeped her horn but nobody came out of the motel. However, she did see "a giant man' fitting the description of Rex Heuermann come out of the motel. When the girl finally comes out, she is crying.
The driver believes this person was Shannan Gilbert
Another witness claims Heuermann and his wife were swingers, and Karen Vergata took part in a party at Heuermann's home. A third potential witness contacted attorney John Ray and says she remembers being picked up by Rex Heuermann. She says he threatened her with a gun.
The fourth potential new witness claims she was a sex worker for many years, including the time the killings occurred. She said Heuermann was a serial user of sex workers, and he would sometimes have them come to his house, with his wife upstairs,
Joining Nancy Grace Today:
- John Ray - Attorney for the family of Shannan Gilbert
- Dr. Joni Johnston – Forensic Psychologist and Private Investigator (performs risk and threat assessments on violent offenders); Author: “Serial Killers: 101 Questions True Crime Fans Ask”
- Robin Dreeke – Behavior Expert & Retired FBI Special Agent / Chief of the FBI Counterintelligence Behavioral Analysis Program; Author: “Sizing People Up: A Veteran FBI Agents Manual for Behavior Prediction;” Twitter: @rdreeke
- Dr. Kendall Crowns – Chief Medical Examiner Tarrant County (Ft Worth), Lecturer: University of Texas Austin and Texas Christian University Medical School
- Mary Murphy – Investigative Reporter, PIX11 News, New York City (WPIX TV); Recipient of 30 New York Emmy awards; Facebook: Mary Murphy Mystery, Instagram: @marymurphypix, Twitter: @MurphyPIX
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Rex Hereman.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
The name will live forever in infamy, along names like
Ted Bundy, BTK, buying, torture, kill, Dennis Raider, Timothy McVeigh,
Charles Manson.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Oh gosh, I could go on.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Rex Hereman, the alleged Long Island serial killer awaiting trial.
We know what he did to his victims, horrific, horrific
murderers after horrific, horrific sex torture while his wife and
children were out of town in a basement dungeon, then
(00:51):
burying them so he could look at their graves every
day when he went to work on Long Island.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
There at Gilgo Beach Star Wars, we find out about
a whole other side of Rex Hewerman.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
And that is Tonight's Friday Night Special and it is
very very special. Oh Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories.
I want to thank you for being with us. Rex Heureerman.
Cops say he is the Long Island serial killer. I
(01:26):
believe he can be connected and will be connected to
many many.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Other dead bodies.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
But for tonight, for our Friday Night Special, we learned
Rex Huerman was the quote I hope you're sitting down
the quote perfect coworker and the quote life of the
party at work get togethers, the life of the party.
We also learn Rex Hewerman, the serial killer, had a
(01:56):
quote sexy nickname. Okay, Rex Hereman had a quote sexy nickname.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
Okay, nothing is sexy about this guy.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
If you look at the faces of all the women
he allegedly murdered one, two, three, four, five, I mean
on and on and on, including a child, a child, five, six, seven, eight,
and counting all these women dead at the hands of
(02:38):
Rex Hureman. And somebody gave him a sexy nickname and
says he was the life of the party at work,
get togethers, drinking beer, cracking jokes with colleagues. According to
a witness, he seemed like any other coworker on a
night out after a busy day at his Manhattan architect's office.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Little did they know.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Once he leaves the bar and heads back to Long Island,
he goes all jekyl and hide, prowling for his next
victim to murder, as his wife and children went out
of town or.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Just simply slept.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Now. According to this witness, Catherine Shepherd, she worked with
Hureman in the same Manhattan office. There on Seventh Avenue
in New York City's Fashion District. She was working for
an architectural design firm and his company was providing city permits.
She and her co workers would gather at a place
(03:40):
called Pete's Tavern in Gramercy Park. She remembers human as
the life of the party, which.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Got him the nickname.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
Okay, I feel the vomit coming up right now got
him the nickname. Of course, we should have seen this coming.
Speaker 3 (04:01):
Sexy rexy, sexy, rexy quote.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
He was fun He was funny. He would tell funny
stories and jokes that made everyone laugh. Okay, that was
her experience with him. What do we know about what
Hureman did? Allegedly after hours in the midst of a
(04:31):
new body being found just minutes from Hureman's home. Now
four witnesses, seemingly impartial witnesses come forward identifying Rex Humorman.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
First of all, take a listen to this.
Speaker 4 (04:46):
Human remains have been found in a wooded area not
more than a thirty minute drive from suspected gilg Beat
serial killers Rex Hureman's home. The body, identified as twenty
year old you Nelly rainmods Moreno, was discovered in Sunken
Meadows Date Park on Long Island by park goers. The
remains were along a trail at the eastern end of
the park, which runs along Long Islands north shore. At
(05:09):
least six victims of the Long Island serial killer have
been found on Gilgo Beach, which is along Long Islands
south shore. Reno's death has been ruled a homicide.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Interesting this is a young male victim, Janelli Moreno, discovered
in Sunken Meadow State Park just minutes away from Rex
Huerman's home. But it's my understanding that this is a
more recent killing or is it? Will it somehow be
(05:44):
connected to Rex Hueerman. It's just minutes from his home.
We know he's implicated in the murders of many other
young women and possibly one Asian male found near those
female dead bodies, But in.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
The midst of investigating.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
A new dead body near Rex Human's home, four witnesses
have now emerged. Listened to the Gilbert family lawyer Attorney
John Ray.
Speaker 5 (06:13):
This is a witness who has every reason to have
no bias, no interest in the case whatsoever. She is
not a sex worker and instead, back in the nineties.
In the nineteen nineties, she was what is known then
and now as a swinger, and they would go to
(06:36):
certain sex clubs in New York City where they would
switch partners with other people of like kind. One of
the most important places that they would go was called
La Trapeze on West twenty seventh Street in New York,
right near.
Speaker 6 (06:52):
Rex Huerman's office.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Okay, this is significant because this club, La Trapeze is
very close to Rex Hureerman's architectural office in Manhattan. And
we know that a lot of the activity that is
linking Hureman back to the dead women the sex workers
occur at his office. Membery's wife children are living in
(07:18):
their home on Long Island. He catches very off of
the Long Island railroad right there at Penn Station near
his office to go home, back and forth.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
And it's that hub, isn't it? Joining me an all
star panel?
Speaker 2 (07:33):
But first to Mary Murphy, investigative reporter pix Pigs eleven,
also host of Hunt Inside, the thirteen year search for
the Gilgo Beach Killer and needless to say, a recipient
of many Emmy Awards. Mary, a lot of the cell
phone pings, a lot of the positioning of the suspect
(07:57):
of Long Island serial killer Rex Hureman happened around his office.
Even the pizza that was discarded, the food and drink
that was later used to get DNA wasn't near his office.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
He was arrested near his office.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
Law Trapeze is near his office, so obviously, if you
look at his activity psychologically, he uses his office as
basically his batcave.
Speaker 7 (08:25):
That's a good way of putting it. There was a
box of cell phone pings located right near his office,
right near Penn Station. And some of the victims who
were killed in a Gilgo Beach case their cell phones
pinged near Penn Station and very close to his office.
And we're told that one of the victims whose names
emerged after his arrest, Karen Bergatta, that she was a
(08:49):
street walker in midtown.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
So regarding the newest the newest thing, this witness that
comes forward, who goes to a swingers club where you
know you swat partners La Trapeze on West twenty seven,
how close is that to Huerman's Manhattan architectural office.
Speaker 7 (09:07):
I would say it's only about seven or eight blocks away.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Guys, that is maybe a ten minute walk. Maybe if
you're catching red lights a ten minute walk from his office.
His office is often the hub of his activity. Joining
me Also in addition to Mary Murphy, investigative reporter of
pix E eleven, Robin Drake joining us out of Virginia,
behavioral expert, former FBI Special Agent in Chief of the
(09:33):
FBI counter Intelligence Behavioral Analysis Program, and I love this book.
His book is Sizing People Up, a veteran FBI agent's
manual for behavior prediction.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
Man.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
We need you now, Drake, because you can put words
to what I'm trying to express. Let's go with Scott Peterson.
Scott Peterson kill Lacy his wife. We believe in their
home on Covena in Modesto, that was his layer. What
was his other layer, his office which had basically a
(10:09):
storage area where he kept his secret boat, where he
made cement.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Let me just say waits. We believe to weigh her
body down.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
What was his other layer where he would go fishing,
his fishing hole where her body was discovered and then
later found not far away when it came up from
the bottom of the water. I'm trying to verbalize that
killers use the area with which they are familiar. You
(10:45):
want to get rid of a dead body. Think about it.
Everybody on the palle thing, where would you go to
get rid of a dead body? You know where I
would go? Seven bridges in South Bibb County. It swamp
and there's seven bridges that go over it to link
South bib County to the city of Macon. Why because
I know where it is. How can you get rid
(11:06):
of a dead body and a place you've never heard of?
Explain what I'm saying, Drake, because I believe his hub
of activity is going to be not just his home
in Long Island at Gilgo Beach where bodies were disposed of.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
His office right by this nightclub.
Speaker 8 (11:25):
YEA, one hundred percent Nancy. And it comes down to
what you said, feeling comfortable and creating what he's established
as a behavior arc of what where he feels safe
operating because he's got reps in those areas and when
we're dumping bodies in places, also when you're doing it,
you've got to feel safe in that area with a
(11:45):
law enforcement that area.
Speaker 9 (11:46):
So I think a lot of these things are.
Speaker 8 (11:47):
Actually putting a bigger point on law enforcement and what
they saw and didn't see in questions there. When it
comes to the investigation. So yeah, he's clearly displayed to
this behavior arc of feeling safe operating in a secretive
way from public view.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
You are hearing high profile lawyer John Ray. He is
representing the family of Shannon and Gilbert. Now you remember
Shannon Gilbert whose body was found out on gilgo At first,
everybody said, well.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
Yeah, she's not really connected. This is just a coincidence.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
Who could buy that her body is near all the
other women's bodies that are connected to hereman and she
just happened to be dead right there. Okay, Now entering
law trapeze, the bar for swingers, what does that have
to do with Huerman?
Speaker 5 (12:41):
Listen, Sometimes several hundred people at a time would be
involved in this place. It's heyday was right at the
time that Karen Vurgatta is involved in this case. In
this situation, this particular woman was dating a police officer
for New York City who was a narcotics a detective,
(13:04):
and they would go to these switchy clubs, these swapping clubs.
At or about Valentine's Day of nineteen ninety six, the
couple went to Latropize and I think it was on
the wall at Latropez where an advertisement was placed to
(13:25):
go to a house in Massapequa Park for partying, for switching,
for swapping, And isn't a shay.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Mary Murphy that that is where Rix Huerman lived with
his wife.
Speaker 7 (13:33):
Yes, Rex Chuerman lived, Barren actually was raised there. He
spent his whole life in Massapeople Park.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
Okay, so this witness who was a swinger goes to
Wa Trapeze.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
So what wait for it?
Speaker 5 (13:48):
Listen, she went with her boyfriend out to Long Island,
but before they went, her boyfriend picked up a woman
in New York in the city and she was a
sex worker. They went to Massapequa Park. They ended up
going to rex Hureman's house. In the house was the
(14:11):
wife of Rex Huremen and Rex Yuremen and the other girl.
The other girl who we believe to be Karen Vergata.
She this girl disappears downstairs at the house. Rex Yureman
(14:32):
disappears and according to our witness and other witnesses, when
men are swingers, very often.
Speaker 6 (14:39):
They switch sexually.
Speaker 5 (14:40):
They go back and forth between male and female, and.
Speaker 6 (14:43):
So Yurman.
Speaker 5 (14:47):
Leaves the main floor and disappears either into another bedroom
or downstairs. The witness talks to Rex's wife.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
Okay, whoa we're hearing all The wife knew nothing about
what was going on. But according to this witness, who
is not a sex worker, wasn't getting paid by anybody,
wasn't answering to John says that Rex Hueman's wife was
(15:18):
part of this.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
Guys, this is a bombshell in this case. Listen.
Speaker 5 (15:25):
As they're leaving, the witness points out that she could
see in the window looking out the girl that had
come with them, and she says to her driver, her partner,
what are we doing? Are we're taking her? And the
partner says, don't worry, they're just playing a game. She stays,
(15:46):
there no problem with that.
Speaker 6 (15:50):
The girl runs out of the house naked and is running.
Speaker 5 (15:54):
In front of the garage, and now the witness says, hey,
we'd be taking her. Something's wrong here, and the driver
tells her no, they're just playing a game.
Speaker 6 (16:05):
Leave it, and they leave.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
They leave the girl there.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
We're talking about Karen Virgatta, one of the dead women.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
And this is how it ends. Listen.
Speaker 5 (16:19):
She never hears about the incident again. She distinctly remembers Urman.
She also had intercourse with Urreman that same day on TV,
she sees the picture of Karen Vagatta and she recognizes
her and said, that's her, and she recognizes Rex Yuoman.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
Crime stories with Nancy Grace, sexy rexy. I would laugh,
but I know.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
The condition in which these bodies were found. There's nothing
sexy about this guy. The life of the party, my
rear end. Sexy, rexy, fun funny, funny stories, jokes.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
Everybody laughed.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
Now, according to the witness, at work, he was always
professional towards her and the other women that work there.
She goes on to say, while he was professional at work,
Hureman loved pretty girls in the office, using them professionally.
He was extremely skilled. He knew how to work the
system to get permits. He was renowned for that. He
(17:31):
knew all the.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
People that provide permits.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
He had relationships with all of them. But what do
we know about Humman after work hours?
Speaker 1 (17:40):
John Ray, thank you for being with us.
Speaker 9 (17:42):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Wow. This is a huge.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
Bombshell in the Rex Human case, because before I was thinking,
you know, John, You've tried a lot of cases, and
I love nothing more than DNA deoxaribo nucleic acid.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
Which we have in this case. I don't have much of it,
but we.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
Have it, and we have the wife's hair on some
connected to some of the dead bodies. We've got the defendant,
Rex Huerman's hair connected to some of the bodies. But DNA,
as you well know, can be argued away that it
(18:23):
was a transfer, that it was an accident.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
That blah blah blah blah.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
But when you combine DNA with an eyewitness, it says
I had sex with humormen. I know what he looks like,
and I left caring for God, and God helped me
there that night, and she was never seen alive again.
A witness willing to come forward and say I was
a swinger and wants to admit that on the stand,
(18:49):
ready to say that on the stand. To me, you
know when you have to put the devil in jail.
Sometimes you got to go to hell to get your witness.
Who do you think human's hanging out with nuns and
priests and virgins? Now, that to me gives this witness,
your witness more credibility.
Speaker 9 (19:06):
Genre Well, you should also know that it's odd why
they brought Karen with them if it was going to
be swapping between couples, and that now is explained fully
and consistently through Missus Ellerp's lawyer, Robert Macedonio. He went
(19:29):
on television recently and said that there's no way that
John Ray's witness can be correct because because his client,
missus Ella Horyeman's wife was pregnant at the time, so
she would never have had sex. And that's perfectly First
of all, we know you can have sex if you're pregnant.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
But okay, hold on, Johenrey, I got to write this down.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
This is significant. Hold on. So you're saying it's a
couple swinging parties.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
How do you bring a sex worker with you when
the women are going to be swinging in the men?
I don't need a fifth will right, But you're saying
el was pregnant at the time and they needed that
extra female.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
Am I getting this right?
Speaker 9 (20:13):
You are? But more importantly it comes from the horse's mouth.
It's Macedonio, who's the lawyer for Missus Ellerup, who posits that,
who states that on national television, And so we also
have that fact consistent with the witness coming forward and
saying that when she got there, Missus Elrop did not
(20:36):
want to have sex and had turned away the witness
thought it was because the witness was African American, but
it turns out Macedonia gave us the correct explanation, which
is that she was pregnant and didn't want to have sex.
And by the way, that also explains why they picked
up Karen ber got her in the first place to
(20:56):
bring her along to be the partner. We couldn't figure
that out before we knew that about the pregnancy. So
it's also very likely that the detective Swapper who was
driving the car to go there, previously knew Hoyaman that
they already had a relationship.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
You mean as Zen had swap partners before. Yes, okay,
hold on, John Ray, I'm not going to ask you
the name, but do you know who the cop is?
Speaker 9 (21:29):
I do.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
It's not out there yet, right correct, Well, he better
expect a big fat subpoena coming his way, and I
ain't gonna stay quiet for long. Guys with me is
John Ray the lawyer for Shannon Gilbert's family, And now
you see why he has interviewed this woman who was
not a sex worker, who has come forward and.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
Admitted, yeah, I was a swinger.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
I went to Lot Trapezese Club, a lot of swingers
go there when y'all went to a party in Massapequa,
and this is what happened.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
I slept, I had sex with Hureman.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
That's like eating a dirt sandwich to have to admit that,
But in my mind that adds to her credibility. Doctor
Joni Johnson is with us very well known forensic psychologist
and private investigator. Doctor Johnson performs risk threat assessments on
violent offenders and she's the author of Serial Killer. As
(22:28):
one hundred one questions true crime fans ask. You can
find doctor Johnson at doctor Joni Johnson dot com. Doctor Johnson,
let me give you a good example. Okay, just recently
we hear from that poc Or van der Sloot and
he gives his confession and I'm saying that with quotes.
(22:50):
I'll believe one line on his confession, I kill Natalie.
The rest he fabricates to make himself look not as
bad as he really is. He's the devil. Straight from help,
Doctor Joni. When you are assessing, as you do statements witnesses, defendants, victims,
(23:13):
to me, it enhances this witness's credibility that she puts
it out there. She's not holding back, She's not lying.
I was a swinger. I went to this club, I
went to this swinger's party in mass Speaker, I slept
with Rex.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
Hereman, and I left Kieren for God of there. What
do you make of it?
Speaker 9 (23:33):
Absolutely?
Speaker 10 (23:34):
Absolutely, I mean, when you were doing any kind of
friends her legal investigation or assessment, you are evaluating the
credibility of the witness, and that includes looking at things
like what do they have to gain, what do they
have to lose? Is the evidence consistent with what they're
telling me? Are they willing to say things that might
not put them in a favorable light? And all the
things that you're talking about certainly indicate that this witness
(23:56):
is willing to put herself in a light that other
people might question or criticized. And so those are things
that definitely add to her credibility.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
Guys, the bodies are piling up, They're all pointing towards
Reck's Huremen and now four witnesses emerging. And I'll deal
with the new discovery of another dead body there at
Sunken Meadow State Park just minutes from Hureman's home in
just a moment. I'm gonna circle back to that. But
these four witnesses. I can't tell you how important this
(24:25):
is to the Long Island serial killer case.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
DNA.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
While its validity is hard to attack, its placement can
sometimes be very easy attacked. Do I have to say,
O J. Simpson, Oh, Jackie, is her head just spun around?
Speaker 1 (24:41):
I have to say, O J. Simpson?
Speaker 2 (24:43):
And this is why his bloody sucks with the victim's
blood on them. We're in his home after his wife
and Ron Goleman were found murdered. But it was artfully
argued at trial that the DNA had been planted and placed.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
Do I believe that?
Speaker 7 (25:07):
No?
Speaker 1 (25:07):
I don't believe that. Was it?
Speaker 2 (25:09):
Successfully argued, Yes, it was the placement of the DNA.
Why was it there? And it Drey believed it. So
while you can't really argue with the validity of DNA,
you can't argue with was it contaminated? Was there a
mistake at the crime scene, at the crime scene or
the crime lab? Was it planned? Just so many ways
you can attack its placement. These eyewitnesses make all the
(25:35):
difference in this case. We only know about a few
of the victims. How many more women have been murdered
by Rex Human And now let's get to it without
any further pontificating on my part. Take a listen again
to our friend John Ray, witness number two.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
Take a listen to our cut to eighteen.
Speaker 5 (25:59):
The second win who's come forward. This woman, she's not
involved in any sexual activities whatsoever. She has nothing to
gain by coming forward. She's not looking for a book
or money or the usual things that you're hearing about
out there, none of that. But she came forward because
(26:19):
she's very disturbed about what she knows. After she also
saw Rex Roomen on television and Shannon Gilbert, and here's
her story. She is a banker by day and at
night she worked extra in Suffolk County as a taxi
(26:40):
driver to take care of her family with a one
parent family. And as a taxi driver, she is called
from her dispatcher to go to the Sayville Motor Lodge
on Sunrise Highway and there's a girl awaiting her who's
locked in a bathroom and will come out if she
flashes her lights and beeps the horn. And she goes
(27:04):
there and does that several times. It doesn't work, but
then suddenly a giant man who fits the description of
Rex Huerman comes out and he's covering his face with
his arms so he can't be seen, and he runs
to a van or an.
Speaker 6 (27:22):
Suv right nearby that's parked right there.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
Okay, so bank day taxi driver. At night, she goes
to a pickup.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
It's at the Sable Motor Lawn on Sunrise Highway, and
this is what happens.
Speaker 5 (27:40):
She continues to flash her lights and beep her horn
and out comes a girl crying, shaking, very upset, and
gets in her car. There they talk for a while
and then eventually they drive to the Ronkunama Railroad station
so that this girl can go back in to New
York City. This girl was a sex worker who was
servicing the big Man, and this girl turns out to
(28:01):
be Shannon Gilbert. Now Shannon is lured into doing this
particular tryst, and she's given an envelope or shown an
envelope by the man that looked like it was stuff
full of money, and he tells her there's one thousand
dollars in there. It's for you and your family no
matter what happens tonight. She looks into the envelope when
he goes to the bathroom and it's stuffed with paper
(28:22):
and so she panics and realizes something's wrong, so she
goes in the bathroom and he had become very aggressive,
very angry. She goes in the bathroom, locks the door,
and calls to get a cab, and that's how she
comes out.
Speaker 6 (28:34):
They speak for over an.
Speaker 5 (28:35):
Hour, so the driver knows her well and notices that
she has a drooping eye, which is characteristic of Shannon
and also a characteristic of her family. By the way,
going back for a generation or two.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
To John Ray, the chosen lawyer for Shannon Gilbert's family,
and we're talking about Shannon Gilbert. Remember all along, she
was the first body that was found, but authorities kept saying, yes,
she's not connected, she's not connected. Well, apparently she is connected,
(29:13):
because this cab driver distinctly remembers peeking Shannon from being
with Rex Hureman right down to the drooping eye. To
doctor Kendall Crown's joining me chief medical Examiner Terran County
Fort Worth. Never Ala like a business there, dtr Crown's.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
Lecturer, University of Texas Austin and TCU Texas Christian University
Medical School. Patosis refers to a drooping eyelid. It means
the upper eyelid falls to a position lower than the other.
Is that genetic doctor Kendall Crowns.
Speaker 11 (29:50):
It can have a genetic component to it. It can
also be associated with trauma and medical conditions in which
the in her own neurological system was compromised, like in
the struggle.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
John Ray, high profile lawyer for the family of Shannon Gilbert.
You're saying that Shannon's family in the past also had
the drooping eyelid.
Speaker 6 (30:16):
Yes.
Speaker 9 (30:17):
I checked with the sister Shari and she mentioned that.
So it was very consistent with the taxi driver's description.
And there's no likelihood that the taxicab driver saw that
drooping lid from a picture you know, recent pictures, say,
(30:37):
posted on television. But it's possible, I suppose. But we
also I also vetted this woman and Rodney Harrison, the
police Commissioner of Suffolk County himself, sat with me for
almost two hours vetting this woman's credibility as well. We
did it together after I had already done it myself.
(30:58):
So she's eminently qualified as a witness and a credible one.
And her description fits shadd into a tee even to
the pulled back hair for the you know, sex workers
very often wear wigs, and Shaddon was very much a
user of wigs. So here she is coming out with
(31:18):
her hair pulled back exactly as it would have been
had she had a wig. So you know, everything about
that this woman said was credible.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
John Ray, I've been carefully going over literally dozens of
photos of Shannon Gilbert, and what I noticed is that
very often she wears her hair in bangs that almost
cover one eye. And when I first saw.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
That, I thought it was just the style.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
Now I realize she may have been covering up or
trying to cover up the drooping eyelid, because you know,
people often try to do their best to cover up
what they perceive to be and imperfection. Also, I've seen
her in many different and very very different hairstyles, and
(32:09):
it's got to be wigs. I mean, in some of
them she has like her hair her head is full
of ringlets, and.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
Others it's completely different.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
I mean, clearly she's wearing wigs, like you say, and
that after prosecuting a lot of cases involving sex workers,
I wasn't prosecuting them. They were typically witnesses in cases.
For me. Anyway, wigs are part of the costume and
they're utilized on a daily basis. So now we finally
(32:40):
get the Humman connection to Shannon Gilbert, I mean John
ray all along when authorities are saying there's no connection.
She just happens to be dead along beside Rex Huerman's
other victims. Did you ever buy that it was?
Speaker 9 (32:58):
The theory that the police espouse from the beginning was
reduced to absurdity and it still is. There isn't this
sintilla of evidence that Shannon died other than by murder.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
Yeah, the theory that she got upset with.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
A different John and wandered out into the marsh and died,
that died of what There was never any None of
that ever made sense. And remember they couldn't find her
body when they were looking for her out in the marsh.
Was she just disappeared? None of that made any sense.
(33:33):
So that's two of the four witnesses. And doctor Kendall
Crown's question to you, you've dealt with literally thousands of
autopsies when you're dealing with a serial killer. Here we
see not only the same modus operandi method of operation
of disposing of the bodies, that we see the same
(33:53):
type of manner of death. Cause of death is that
significant when you're trying to identify the perp.
Speaker 11 (34:04):
The manner of death, so the manner of death can
be is homicide accent natural suicide. Cause of death is
probably what you're more referring to. Yes, Usually with causes
of death. With serial killers, they do like to follow
the same pattern. They kind of have a routine, so
(34:25):
you will see similar methods of killing an individual, similar
method of binding. As far as identifying of them, you
can cluster the cases together, possibly get DNA from them,
but you can't get people to copy do copycat killings
as well, so it doesn't necessarily identify them based on
(34:48):
how they do it.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
Is the next witness take us an hour to two eight.
Speaker 5 (34:52):
The fourth witness comes from another state. She was a
sex worker for many years. She said that he would
service rex hurolmen over twenty times and that he would
he was a serial user of sex workers. He would
sometimes have him come two at a time to his
house and his wife was home upstairs, and in one
(35:14):
instance got very angry at one of the sex workers
because the wife believed that the worker had stolen an
iron from you know, for ironing clothes and had had
it in the car with the driver, so the driver
had to get out, everybody had to search the car.
There was no iron, but the wife knew about it
and knew about obviously what was going on in order for.
Speaker 6 (35:35):
That to happen.
Speaker 1 (35:36):
Wow and last, take a listener for insic Crime online.
Speaker 12 (35:39):
The wife of Rex Huwerman has not been accused of
any wrongdoing by police. They've even gone so far as
to say they believe she was out of town when
the murders of the Gilgil four were committed. However, in
an interview with the US Sun, attorney John Ray points
out he doesn't see how it's possible to ignore or
refuse to investigate Asa Eller up in light the purported
(36:00):
evidence he has uncovered.
Speaker 1 (36:07):
Crime stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
Sexy Rexy, it actually is nauseating to even say that
I'm talking about a legiterial killer. Rex Hureman arrested and
initially charged with the murder of three women, Amber Costello,
Melissa Bartolemy and Magan Watermen. Since then, he's been charged
with the murders of four more, Marine Brainerd Barnes, Santra Caristia,
(36:37):
Jessica Taylor, Valerie Mack. What do we know about the
deaths of these beautiful women? We know their bodies were
found dumped along Ocean Parkway near Gilgo Beach and other
remote spots.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
On Long Island.
Speaker 2 (36:51):
Some were bound, some have been dismembered. There remains discarded
in multiple locations. That doesn't have at all with the
quote life of the party, sexy, rexy, does it?
Speaker 1 (37:05):
Does it well?
Speaker 2 (37:06):
Listen to these facts pix eleven, Mary, thank you for
being with us again. Got two questions for you, and
the first one is about Asa Ellaup, the wife of
Rex Hureman. She has not been charged, she's not been
named a person of interest, but many people have wondered
how she could not know what was happening. That was
(37:29):
explained away by the fact that many of Hueman's meetings
with sex workers when she was out of town. This
paints her in an entirely different light.
Speaker 7 (37:43):
We don't know what kind of relationship miss Elearet pad.
Speaker 9 (37:46):
With her husband.
Speaker 7 (37:47):
We don't know the level of their intimacy. I can
just tell you that when this indictment was announced back
in July, the District Attorney Rate Tyranny, took great pains
to say he did not that the wife had any
knowledge of what was going on, and even the police commissioner,
Rodney Harrison, said he believed that rex Huwerman was living
(38:09):
a double life. I believe anything's possible. Perhaps there were
sex workers that went to the house, but from what
I'm gathering from the top law enforcement people on the case,
they did not think she had any involvement. I just
wanted to mention a couple of things. Rodney Harrison, the
former police commissioner, he was there for the vetting of
(38:30):
the second witness that John Ray has met with, and
while he said that he wanted to look at all
of these witnesses, he didn't want to leave any stone unturned.
It should be noted that he was very cautious. At
John Ray's press conference. He didn't give up much information.
He just said they would look at this information. And
(38:52):
it was significant though that he was there with John Ray.
I had never seen anything like that in my career.
He actually left police heads to join John Ray at
his private attorney's office.
Speaker 2 (39:04):
Well, I would not expect law enforcement to comment on
potential witnesses at this juncture, but you're right, the fact
that he's there with Ray when Ray is making the
statements about four new witnesses, speaks volumes. He doesn't have
to say anything for me to see that he's standing
there in solidarity with Ray. Also, we learned about another
(39:25):
creepy I'm not through yet on these four witnesses, but
another creepy fact has emerged. Take a listen hour cut
two four two from investigative reporter Dave mack Rex.
Speaker 12 (39:37):
Huerman was so obsessed about showing off his hunting skills
to a female colleague that he stalked her onto a
cruise ship. Mirel Henriquez tells CBS forty eight Hours that
Hureman asked her where she was going to be on
her fortieth birthday cruise. She told him, I'm going to
be in the middle of the ocean, and you're not
going to be able to find me in the middle
of the ocean. Heureerman told her, oh, yes, I can.
(39:59):
On the second day of her birthday cruise, a white
envelope was shoved under her cabin door. It was a
note from Huerman. The note said, I told you I
could find you anywhere.
Speaker 2 (40:09):
Okay, that's completely irrelevant to the trial on multiple murders,
but wow, I wish a Juri could hear that, because
it tells me volumes about rex Hueman himself. Mary Murphy,
what is a significance of the Sable Motor Lodge where,
(40:30):
according to one of these new witnesses she made a
pickup connected to Hureman.
Speaker 7 (40:34):
The first thing that I thought of when I heard
save Ill Motor Lodge was the fact that just recently
the Fedge locked it down, shut it down for good,
because it was the scene of major sex trafficking over
the years. And so when the allegation was made that
Shannon Gilbert was there and that she had allegedly met
(40:55):
human there, I thought of all the human trafficking that
was going on. Date John Ray in this Affidavid, which
was a sworn Affidavid noted that it was around two
thousand and nine in the fall. It would probably be
September October two thousand and nine when this incident happened,
and that was around the time earlier that summer that
(41:16):
Melissa Barthelemy had disappeared. But she disappeared from the Bronx.
She's one of the original Gilgo four found on Ocean
Parkway in twenty ten. So it becomes an interesting part
of the timeline. Melissa Barthelemy disappears in the summer of
two thousand and nine, and then in September October two
(41:36):
thousand and nine, this taxi driver allegedly saw a woman
she identifies as Shannon Gilbert with Rex Huerman at the
Sable Motor Lodge.
Speaker 2 (41:45):
Too John Ray, lawyer for the Shannon Gilbert family.
Speaker 1 (41:49):
In my mind, this is icing on the cake for
the state.
Speaker 9 (41:52):
Well, yeah, I suppose you could say, Silvia, I just
you know, you said that the missis Rikaz, the Huriman's secretary,
that the issue on the ocean cruiselner was irrelevant. It's
not actually Rex Heuerman. One of the items sees from
him in the police inventory was survivalist equipment. Doctor Peter Hackett,
(42:16):
who we have pinned as one of the people responsible
for Shannon's death, ran a company called Survivalist Dynamic, and
he ran it with a man who was a sea
captain for cruise ships. And the chances that Packet and
Huerman knew each other through the survivalist operation in Long
(42:38):
Island are very strong. It's a very small group of people.
They tend to connect with each other, meet with each other, etc.
And it wouldn't surprise me if there was a connection.
Speaker 2 (42:46):
There might very well be a connection in everything regarding
tracking her down on a cruise ship. Maybe true, But
after all your years of trying cases, do you believe
that evidence will come in a murder trial? Not yet, okay,
And that is why it would be damed irrelevant in trial,
not irrelevant to who Rex human is.
Speaker 1 (43:04):
That's why I.
Speaker 2 (43:06):
Played it because it tells me who he is, but
it's not coming into trial because it has nothing to
do with the victim. The Gilgo Beach victims tells me
a lot about him, but a jury's never going to
hear that.
Speaker 1 (43:17):
And I wish that they could doctor Joni Johnston joining
me out of California. What do you make of what
you've heard?
Speaker 10 (43:23):
Well, I think there's so many interesting parts of this,
and I'd have to agree with you, Nancy that the
whole issue of Rex Hureman tracking down one of his
employees just to show her that he has the power
to know where she is at all times, speaks of
volumes about his pychology, and you know, one of the
themes that has come up over and over in his
case in people talking about Rex Huereerman and looking at
(43:44):
some of the pornography he allegedly was looking at. Is
this issue of satism and getting pleasure out of causing
other people to comfort or pain and that is very
consistent with that.
Speaker 2 (43:54):
Robin Drake, behavioral expert, former FBI special agent, what do
you think?
Speaker 8 (43:59):
Yeah, I can agree more. He keeps the splay of
very consistent arc of behavior of control ower sadism, and
he targets and grooms fitting all the profiles as someone
that would do this. All these witnesses coming forward though,
really it's helping the prosecution. I believe, like it's been
stated at the same time, though I keep coming back
(44:19):
to we're seeing some law enforcement mishandling here as well.
It really paints an interesting picture on what's been transpiring there.
Speaker 2 (44:26):
Yeah, and that is going to play into the defense
because of the fact that there has been police misconduct
in the distant past, but it was during these investigations.
That's all they need to argue this DNA is irrelevant,
is planted, is tainted.
Speaker 1 (44:43):
They're going to use that.
Speaker 2 (44:45):
And that's why these eyewitnesses that John Ray, high profile
lawyers telling us about, become all the more significant because
they corroborate the DNA Mary Murphy joining US Pixy eleven
number one. The new body that has been found at
Sunken Meadows is that of a young male and it's
(45:08):
believed it was a recent murder. Hereman's in jail. He
didn't do it, but you know, I think it's significant,
Mary Murphy, because the defense can now argue, you see
the killer still out there, it's not Heureerman. Can't you
just see that unfolding in court?
Speaker 11 (45:26):
Mary Well.
Speaker 7 (45:26):
The first thing that I thought of when I heard
about the body in Sunken Meadow State Park was Wow,
could this be another victim? And you know I asked
the police commissioner about that. He told me he did
not think so.
Speaker 2 (45:39):
The so called perfect coworker and life of the party
who got his own sexy nickname Sexy Rexy now Stance
accused of multiple murders. We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy
Grace signing off Friday Night Special. I told you Special,
(46:00):
you believe me.
Speaker 1 (46:03):
Goodbye friend.
Speaker 11 (46:08):
Mm hmm
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Rex Hereman.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
The name will live forever in infamy, along names like
Ted Bundy, BTK, buying, torture, kill, Dennis Raider, Timothy McVeigh,
Charles Manson.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Oh gosh, I could go on.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Rex Hereman, the alleged Long Island serial killer awaiting trial.
We know what he did to his victims, horrific, horrific
murderers after horrific, horrific sex torture while his wife and
children were out of town in a basement dungeon, then
(00:51):
burying them so he could look at their graves every
day when he went to work on Long Island.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
There at Gilgo Beach Star Wars, we find out about
a whole other side of Rex Hewerman.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
And that is Tonight's Friday Night Special and it is
very very special. Oh Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories.
I want to thank you for being with us. Rex Heureerman.
Cops say he is the Long Island serial killer. I
(01:26):
believe he can be connected and will be connected to
many many.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Other dead bodies.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
But for tonight, for our Friday Night Special, we learned
Rex Huerman was the quote I hope you're sitting down
the quote perfect coworker and the quote life of the
party at work get togethers, the life of the party.
We also learn Rex Hewerman, the serial killer, had a
(01:56):
quote sexy nickname. Okay, Rex Hereman had a quote sexy nickname.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
Okay, nothing is sexy about this guy.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
If you look at the faces of all the women
he allegedly murdered one, two, three, four, five, I mean
on and on and on, including a child, a child, five, six, seven, eight,
and counting all these women dead at the hands of
(02:38):
Rex Hureman. And somebody gave him a sexy nickname and
says he was the life of the party at work,
get togethers, drinking beer, cracking jokes with colleagues. According to
a witness, he seemed like any other coworker on a
night out after a busy day at his Manhattan architect's office.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Little did they know.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Once he leaves the bar and heads back to Long Island,
he goes all jekyl and hide, prowling for his next
victim to murder, as his wife and children went out
of town or.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Just simply slept.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Now. According to this witness, Catherine Shepherd, she worked with
Hureman in the same Manhattan office. There on Seventh Avenue
in New York City's Fashion District. She was working for
an architectural design firm and his company was providing city permits.
She and her co workers would gather at a place
(03:40):
called Pete's Tavern in Gramercy Park. She remembers human as
the life of the party, which.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Got him the nickname.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
Okay, I feel the vomit coming up right now got
him the nickname. Of course, we should have seen this coming.
Speaker 3 (04:01):
Sexy rexy, sexy, rexy quote.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
He was fun He was funny. He would tell funny
stories and jokes that made everyone laugh. Okay, that was
her experience with him. What do we know about what
Hureman did? Allegedly after hours in the midst of a
(04:31):
new body being found just minutes from Hureman's home. Now
four witnesses, seemingly impartial witnesses come forward identifying Rex Humorman.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
First of all, take a listen to this.
Speaker 4 (04:46):
Human remains have been found in a wooded area not
more than a thirty minute drive from suspected gilg Beat
serial killers Rex Hureman's home. The body, identified as twenty
year old you Nelly rainmods Moreno, was discovered in Sunken
Meadows Date Park on Long Island by park goers. The
remains were along a trail at the eastern end of
the park, which runs along Long Islands north shore. At
(05:09):
least six victims of the Long Island serial killer have
been found on Gilgo Beach, which is along Long Islands
south shore. Reno's death has been ruled a homicide.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Interesting this is a young male victim, Janelli Moreno, discovered
in Sunken Meadow State Park just minutes away from Rex
Huerman's home. But it's my understanding that this is a
more recent killing or is it? Will it somehow be
(05:44):
connected to Rex Hueerman. It's just minutes from his home.
We know he's implicated in the murders of many other
young women and possibly one Asian male found near those
female dead bodies, But in.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
The midst of investigating.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
A new dead body near Rex Human's home, four witnesses
have now emerged. Listened to the Gilbert family lawyer Attorney
John Ray.
Speaker 5 (06:13):
This is a witness who has every reason to have
no bias, no interest in the case whatsoever. She is
not a sex worker and instead, back in the nineties.
In the nineteen nineties, she was what is known then
and now as a swinger, and they would go to
(06:36):
certain sex clubs in New York City where they would
switch partners with other people of like kind. One of
the most important places that they would go was called
La Trapeze on West twenty seventh Street in New York,
right near.
Speaker 6 (06:52):
Rex Huerman's office.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Okay, this is significant because this club, La Trapeze is
very close to Rex Hureerman's architectural office in Manhattan. And
we know that a lot of the activity that is
linking Hureman back to the dead women the sex workers
occur at his office. Membery's wife children are living in
(07:18):
their home on Long Island. He catches very off of
the Long Island railroad right there at Penn Station near
his office to go home, back and forth.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
And it's that hub, isn't it? Joining me an all
star panel?
Speaker 2 (07:33):
But first to Mary Murphy, investigative reporter pix Pigs eleven,
also host of Hunt Inside, the thirteen year search for
the Gilgo Beach Killer and needless to say, a recipient
of many Emmy Awards. Mary, a lot of the cell
phone pings, a lot of the positioning of the suspect
(07:57):
of Long Island serial killer Rex Hureman happened around his office.
Even the pizza that was discarded, the food and drink
that was later used to get DNA wasn't near his office.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
He was arrested near his office.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
Law Trapeze is near his office, so obviously, if you
look at his activity psychologically, he uses his office as
basically his batcave.
Speaker 7 (08:25):
That's a good way of putting it. There was a
box of cell phone pings located right near his office,
right near Penn Station. And some of the victims who
were killed in a Gilgo Beach case their cell phones
pinged near Penn Station and very close to his office.
And we're told that one of the victims whose names
emerged after his arrest, Karen Bergatta, that she was a
(08:49):
street walker in midtown.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
So regarding the newest the newest thing, this witness that
comes forward, who goes to a swingers club where you
know you swat partners La Trapeze on West twenty seven,
how close is that to Huerman's Manhattan architectural office.
Speaker 7 (09:07):
I would say it's only about seven or eight blocks away.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Guys, that is maybe a ten minute walk. Maybe if
you're catching red lights a ten minute walk from his office.
His office is often the hub of his activity. Joining
me Also in addition to Mary Murphy, investigative reporter of
pix E eleven, Robin Drake joining us out of Virginia,
behavioral expert, former FBI Special Agent in Chief of the
(09:33):
FBI counter Intelligence Behavioral Analysis Program, and I love this book.
His book is Sizing People Up, a veteran FBI agent's
manual for behavior prediction.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
Man.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
We need you now, Drake, because you can put words
to what I'm trying to express. Let's go with Scott Peterson.
Scott Peterson kill Lacy his wife. We believe in their
home on Covena in Modesto, that was his layer. What
was his other layer, his office which had basically a
(10:09):
storage area where he kept his secret boat, where he
made cement.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Let me just say waits. We believe to weigh her
body down.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
What was his other layer where he would go fishing,
his fishing hole where her body was discovered and then
later found not far away when it came up from
the bottom of the water. I'm trying to verbalize that
killers use the area with which they are familiar. You
(10:45):
want to get rid of a dead body. Think about it.
Everybody on the palle thing, where would you go to
get rid of a dead body? You know where I
would go? Seven bridges in South Bibb County. It swamp
and there's seven bridges that go over it to link
South bib County to the city of Macon. Why because
I know where it is. How can you get rid
(11:06):
of a dead body and a place you've never heard of?
Explain what I'm saying, Drake, because I believe his hub
of activity is going to be not just his home
in Long Island at Gilgo Beach where bodies were disposed of.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
His office right by this nightclub.
Speaker 8 (11:25):
YEA, one hundred percent Nancy. And it comes down to
what you said, feeling comfortable and creating what he's established
as a behavior arc of what where he feels safe
operating because he's got reps in those areas and when
we're dumping bodies in places, also when you're doing it,
you've got to feel safe in that area with a
(11:45):
law enforcement that area.
Speaker 9 (11:46):
So I think a lot of these things are.
Speaker 8 (11:47):
Actually putting a bigger point on law enforcement and what
they saw and didn't see in questions there. When it
comes to the investigation. So yeah, he's clearly displayed to
this behavior arc of feeling safe operating in a secretive
way from public view.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
You are hearing high profile lawyer John Ray. He is
representing the family of Shannon and Gilbert. Now you remember
Shannon Gilbert whose body was found out on gilgo At first,
everybody said, well.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
Yeah, she's not really connected. This is just a coincidence.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
Who could buy that her body is near all the
other women's bodies that are connected to hereman and she
just happened to be dead right there. Okay, Now entering
law trapeze, the bar for swingers, what does that have
to do with Huerman?
Speaker 5 (12:41):
Listen, Sometimes several hundred people at a time would be
involved in this place. It's heyday was right at the
time that Karen Vurgatta is involved in this case. In
this situation, this particular woman was dating a police officer
for New York City who was a narcotics a detective,
(13:04):
and they would go to these switchy clubs, these swapping clubs.
At or about Valentine's Day of nineteen ninety six, the
couple went to Latropize and I think it was on
the wall at Latropez where an advertisement was placed to
(13:25):
go to a house in Massapequa Park for partying, for switching,
for swapping, And isn't a shay.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Mary Murphy that that is where Rix Huerman lived with
his wife.
Speaker 7 (13:33):
Yes, Rex Chuerman lived, Barren actually was raised there. He
spent his whole life in Massapeople Park.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
Okay, so this witness who was a swinger goes to
Wa Trapeze.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
So what wait for it?
Speaker 5 (13:48):
Listen, she went with her boyfriend out to Long Island,
but before they went, her boyfriend picked up a woman
in New York in the city and she was a
sex worker. They went to Massapequa Park. They ended up
going to rex Hureman's house. In the house was the
(14:11):
wife of Rex Huremen and Rex Yuremen and the other girl.
The other girl who we believe to be Karen Vergata.
She this girl disappears downstairs at the house. Rex Yureman
(14:32):
disappears and according to our witness and other witnesses, when
men are swingers, very often.
Speaker 6 (14:39):
They switch sexually.
Speaker 5 (14:40):
They go back and forth between male and female, and.
Speaker 6 (14:43):
So Yurman.
Speaker 5 (14:47):
Leaves the main floor and disappears either into another bedroom
or downstairs. The witness talks to Rex's wife.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
Okay, whoa we're hearing all The wife knew nothing about
what was going on. But according to this witness, who
is not a sex worker, wasn't getting paid by anybody,
wasn't answering to John says that Rex Hueman's wife was
(15:18):
part of this.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
Guys, this is a bombshell in this case. Listen.
Speaker 5 (15:25):
As they're leaving, the witness points out that she could
see in the window looking out the girl that had
come with them, and she says to her driver, her partner,
what are we doing? Are we're taking her? And the
partner says, don't worry, they're just playing a game. She stays,
(15:46):
there no problem with that.
Speaker 6 (15:50):
The girl runs out of the house naked and is running.
Speaker 5 (15:54):
In front of the garage, and now the witness says, hey,
we'd be taking her. Something's wrong here, and the driver
tells her no, they're just playing a game.
Speaker 6 (16:05):
Leave it, and they leave.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
They leave the girl there.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
We're talking about Karen Virgatta, one of the dead women.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
And this is how it ends. Listen.
Speaker 5 (16:19):
She never hears about the incident again. She distinctly remembers Urman.
She also had intercourse with Urreman that same day on TV,
she sees the picture of Karen Vagatta and she recognizes
her and said, that's her, and she recognizes Rex Yuoman.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
Crime stories with Nancy Grace, sexy rexy. I would laugh,
but I know.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
The condition in which these bodies were found. There's nothing
sexy about this guy. The life of the party, my
rear end. Sexy, rexy, fun funny, funny stories, jokes.
Speaker 1 (17:07):
Everybody laughed.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
Now, according to the witness, at work, he was always
professional towards her and the other women that work there.
She goes on to say, while he was professional at work,
Hureman loved pretty girls in the office, using them professionally.
He was extremely skilled. He knew how to work the
system to get permits. He was renowned for that. He
(17:31):
knew all the.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
People that provide permits.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
He had relationships with all of them. But what do
we know about Humman after work hours?
Speaker 1 (17:40):
John Ray, thank you for being with us.
Speaker 9 (17:42):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Wow. This is a huge.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
Bombshell in the Rex Human case, because before I was thinking,
you know, John, You've tried a lot of cases, and
I love nothing more than DNA deoxaribo nucleic acid.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
Which we have in this case. I don't have much of it,
but we.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
Have it, and we have the wife's hair on some
connected to some of the dead bodies. We've got the defendant,
Rex Huerman's hair connected to some of the bodies. But DNA,
as you well know, can be argued away that it
(18:23):
was a transfer, that it was an accident.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
That blah blah blah blah.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
But when you combine DNA with an eyewitness, it says
I had sex with humormen. I know what he looks like,
and I left caring for God, and God helped me
there that night, and she was never seen alive again.
A witness willing to come forward and say I was
a swinger and wants to admit that on the stand,
(18:49):
ready to say that on the stand. To me, you
know when you have to put the devil in jail.
Sometimes you got to go to hell to get your witness.
Who do you think human's hanging out with nuns and
priests and virgins? Now, that to me gives this witness,
your witness more credibility.
Speaker 9 (19:06):
Genre Well, you should also know that it's odd why
they brought Karen with them if it was going to
be swapping between couples, and that now is explained fully
and consistently through Missus Ellerp's lawyer, Robert Macedonio. He went
(19:29):
on television recently and said that there's no way that
John Ray's witness can be correct because because his client,
missus Ella Horyeman's wife was pregnant at the time, so
she would never have had sex. And that's perfectly First
of all, we know you can have sex if you're pregnant.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
But okay, hold on, Johenrey, I got to write this down.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
This is significant. Hold on. So you're saying it's a
couple swinging parties.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
How do you bring a sex worker with you when
the women are going to be swinging in the men?
I don't need a fifth will right, But you're saying
el was pregnant at the time and they needed that
extra female.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
Am I getting this right?
Speaker 9 (20:13):
You are? But more importantly it comes from the horse's mouth.
It's Macedonio, who's the lawyer for Missus Ellerup, who posits that,
who states that on national television, And so we also
have that fact consistent with the witness coming forward and
saying that when she got there, Missus Elrop did not
(20:36):
want to have sex and had turned away the witness
thought it was because the witness was African American, but
it turns out Macedonia gave us the correct explanation, which
is that she was pregnant and didn't want to have sex.
And by the way, that also explains why they picked
up Karen ber got her in the first place to
(20:56):
bring her along to be the partner. We couldn't figure
that out before we knew that about the pregnancy. So
it's also very likely that the detective Swapper who was
driving the car to go there, previously knew Hoyaman that
they already had a relationship.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
You mean as Zen had swap partners before. Yes, okay,
hold on, John Ray, I'm not going to ask you
the name, but do you know who the cop is?
Speaker 9 (21:29):
I do.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
It's not out there yet, right correct, Well, he better
expect a big fat subpoena coming his way, and I
ain't gonna stay quiet for long. Guys with me is
John Ray the lawyer for Shannon Gilbert's family, And now
you see why he has interviewed this woman who was
not a sex worker, who has come forward and.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
Admitted, yeah, I was a swinger.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
I went to Lot Trapezese Club, a lot of swingers
go there when y'all went to a party in Massapequa,
and this is what happened.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
I slept, I had sex with Hureman.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
That's like eating a dirt sandwich to have to admit that,
But in my mind that adds to her credibility. Doctor
Joni Johnson is with us very well known forensic psychologist
and private investigator. Doctor Johnson performs risk threat assessments on
violent offenders and she's the author of Serial Killer. As
(22:28):
one hundred one questions true crime fans ask. You can
find doctor Johnson at doctor Joni Johnson dot com. Doctor Johnson,
let me give you a good example. Okay, just recently
we hear from that poc Or van der Sloot and
he gives his confession and I'm saying that with quotes.
(22:50):
I'll believe one line on his confession, I kill Natalie.
The rest he fabricates to make himself look not as
bad as he really is. He's the devil. Straight from help,
Doctor Joni. When you are assessing, as you do statements witnesses, defendants, victims,
(23:13):
to me, it enhances this witness's credibility that she puts
it out there. She's not holding back, She's not lying.
I was a swinger. I went to this club, I
went to this swinger's party in mass Speaker, I slept
with Rex.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
Hereman, and I left Kieren for God of there. What
do you make of it?
Speaker 9 (23:33):
Absolutely?
Speaker 10 (23:34):
Absolutely, I mean, when you were doing any kind of
friends her legal investigation or assessment, you are evaluating the
credibility of the witness, and that includes looking at things
like what do they have to gain, what do they
have to lose? Is the evidence consistent with what they're
telling me? Are they willing to say things that might
not put them in a favorable light? And all the
things that you're talking about certainly indicate that this witness
(23:56):
is willing to put herself in a light that other
people might question or criticized. And so those are things
that definitely add to her credibility.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
Guys, the bodies are piling up, They're all pointing towards
Reck's Huremen and now four witnesses emerging. And I'll deal
with the new discovery of another dead body there at
Sunken Meadow State Park just minutes from Hureman's home in
just a moment. I'm gonna circle back to that. But
these four witnesses. I can't tell you how important this
(24:25):
is to the Long Island serial killer case.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
DNA.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
While its validity is hard to attack, its placement can
sometimes be very easy attacked. Do I have to say,
O J. Simpson, Oh, Jackie, is her head just spun around?
Speaker 1 (24:41):
I have to say, O J. Simpson?
Speaker 2 (24:43):
And this is why his bloody sucks with the victim's
blood on them. We're in his home after his wife
and Ron Goleman were found murdered. But it was artfully
argued at trial that the DNA had been planted and placed.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
Do I believe that?
Speaker 7 (25:07):
No?
Speaker 1 (25:07):
I don't believe that. Was it?
Speaker 2 (25:09):
Successfully argued, Yes, it was the placement of the DNA.
Why was it there? And it Drey believed it. So
while you can't really argue with the validity of DNA,
you can't argue with was it contaminated? Was there a
mistake at the crime scene, at the crime scene or
the crime lab? Was it planned? Just so many ways
you can attack its placement. These eyewitnesses make all the
(25:35):
difference in this case. We only know about a few
of the victims. How many more women have been murdered
by Rex Human And now let's get to it without
any further pontificating on my part. Take a listen again
to our friend John Ray, witness number two.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
Take a listen to our cut to eighteen.
Speaker 5 (25:59):
The second win who's come forward. This woman, she's not
involved in any sexual activities whatsoever. She has nothing to
gain by coming forward. She's not looking for a book
or money or the usual things that you're hearing about
out there, none of that. But she came forward because
(26:19):
she's very disturbed about what she knows. After she also
saw Rex Roomen on television and Shannon Gilbert, and here's
her story. She is a banker by day and at
night she worked extra in Suffolk County as a taxi
(26:40):
driver to take care of her family with a one
parent family. And as a taxi driver, she is called
from her dispatcher to go to the Sayville Motor Lodge
on Sunrise Highway and there's a girl awaiting her who's
locked in a bathroom and will come out if she
flashes her lights and beeps the horn. And she goes
(27:04):
there and does that several times. It doesn't work, but
then suddenly a giant man who fits the description of
Rex Huerman comes out and he's covering his face with
his arms so he can't be seen, and he runs
to a van or an.
Speaker 6 (27:22):
Suv right nearby that's parked right there.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
Okay, so bank day taxi driver. At night, she goes
to a pickup.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
It's at the Sable Motor Lawn on Sunrise Highway, and
this is what happens.
Speaker 5 (27:40):
She continues to flash her lights and beep her horn
and out comes a girl crying, shaking, very upset, and
gets in her car. There they talk for a while
and then eventually they drive to the Ronkunama Railroad station
so that this girl can go back in to New
York City. This girl was a sex worker who was
servicing the big Man, and this girl turns out to
(28:01):
be Shannon Gilbert. Now Shannon is lured into doing this
particular tryst, and she's given an envelope or shown an
envelope by the man that looked like it was stuff
full of money, and he tells her there's one thousand
dollars in there. It's for you and your family no
matter what happens tonight. She looks into the envelope when
he goes to the bathroom and it's stuffed with paper
(28:22):
and so she panics and realizes something's wrong, so she
goes in the bathroom and he had become very aggressive,
very angry. She goes in the bathroom, locks the door,
and calls to get a cab, and that's how she
comes out.
Speaker 6 (28:34):
They speak for over an.
Speaker 5 (28:35):
Hour, so the driver knows her well and notices that
she has a drooping eye, which is characteristic of Shannon
and also a characteristic of her family. By the way,
going back for a generation or two.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
To John Ray, the chosen lawyer for Shannon Gilbert's family,
and we're talking about Shannon Gilbert. Remember all along, she
was the first body that was found, but authorities kept saying, yes,
she's not connected, she's not connected. Well, apparently she is connected,
(29:13):
because this cab driver distinctly remembers peeking Shannon from being
with Rex Hureman right down to the drooping eye. To
doctor Kendall Crown's joining me chief medical Examiner Terran County
Fort Worth. Never Ala like a business there, dtr Crown's.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
Lecturer, University of Texas Austin and TCU Texas Christian University
Medical School. Patosis refers to a drooping eyelid. It means
the upper eyelid falls to a position lower than the other.
Is that genetic doctor Kendall Crowns.
Speaker 11 (29:50):
It can have a genetic component to it. It can
also be associated with trauma and medical conditions in which
the in her own neurological system was compromised, like in
the struggle.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
John Ray, high profile lawyer for the family of Shannon Gilbert.
You're saying that Shannon's family in the past also had
the drooping eyelid.
Speaker 6 (30:16):
Yes.
Speaker 9 (30:17):
I checked with the sister Shari and she mentioned that.
So it was very consistent with the taxi driver's description.
And there's no likelihood that the taxicab driver saw that
drooping lid from a picture you know, recent pictures, say,
(30:37):
posted on television. But it's possible, I suppose. But we
also I also vetted this woman and Rodney Harrison, the
police Commissioner of Suffolk County himself, sat with me for
almost two hours vetting this woman's credibility as well. We
did it together after I had already done it myself.
(30:58):
So she's eminently qualified as a witness and a credible one.
And her description fits shadd into a tee even to
the pulled back hair for the you know, sex workers
very often wear wigs, and Shaddon was very much a
user of wigs. So here she is coming out with
(31:18):
her hair pulled back exactly as it would have been
had she had a wig. So you know, everything about
that this woman said was credible.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
John Ray, I've been carefully going over literally dozens of
photos of Shannon Gilbert, and what I noticed is that
very often she wears her hair in bangs that almost
cover one eye. And when I first saw.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
That, I thought it was just the style.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
Now I realize she may have been covering up or
trying to cover up the drooping eyelid, because you know,
people often try to do their best to cover up
what they perceive to be and imperfection. Also, I've seen
her in many different and very very different hairstyles, and
(32:09):
it's got to be wigs. I mean, in some of
them she has like her hair her head is full
of ringlets, and.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
Others it's completely different.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
I mean, clearly she's wearing wigs, like you say, and
that after prosecuting a lot of cases involving sex workers,
I wasn't prosecuting them. They were typically witnesses in cases.
For me. Anyway, wigs are part of the costume and
they're utilized on a daily basis. So now we finally
(32:40):
get the Humman connection to Shannon Gilbert, I mean John
ray all along when authorities are saying there's no connection.
She just happens to be dead along beside Rex Huerman's
other victims. Did you ever buy that it was?
Speaker 9 (32:58):
The theory that the police espouse from the beginning was
reduced to absurdity and it still is. There isn't this
sintilla of evidence that Shannon died other than by murder.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
Yeah, the theory that she got upset with.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
A different John and wandered out into the marsh and died,
that died of what There was never any None of
that ever made sense. And remember they couldn't find her
body when they were looking for her out in the marsh.
Was she just disappeared? None of that made any sense.
(33:33):
So that's two of the four witnesses. And doctor Kendall
Crown's question to you, you've dealt with literally thousands of
autopsies when you're dealing with a serial killer. Here we
see not only the same modus operandi method of operation
of disposing of the bodies, that we see the same
(33:53):
type of manner of death. Cause of death is that
significant when you're trying to identify the perp.
Speaker 11 (34:04):
The manner of death, so the manner of death can
be is homicide accent natural suicide. Cause of death is
probably what you're more referring to. Yes, Usually with causes
of death. With serial killers, they do like to follow
the same pattern. They kind of have a routine, so
(34:25):
you will see similar methods of killing an individual, similar
method of binding. As far as identifying of them, you
can cluster the cases together, possibly get DNA from them,
but you can't get people to copy do copycat killings
as well, so it doesn't necessarily identify them based on
(34:48):
how they do it.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
Is the next witness take us an hour to two eight.
Speaker 5 (34:52):
The fourth witness comes from another state. She was a
sex worker for many years. She said that he would
service rex hurolmen over twenty times and that he would
he was a serial user of sex workers. He would
sometimes have him come two at a time to his
house and his wife was home upstairs, and in one
(35:14):
instance got very angry at one of the sex workers
because the wife believed that the worker had stolen an
iron from you know, for ironing clothes and had had
it in the car with the driver, so the driver
had to get out, everybody had to search the car.
There was no iron, but the wife knew about it
and knew about obviously what was going on in order for.
Speaker 6 (35:35):
That to happen.
Speaker 1 (35:36):
Wow and last, take a listener for insic Crime online.
Speaker 12 (35:39):
The wife of Rex Huwerman has not been accused of
any wrongdoing by police. They've even gone so far as
to say they believe she was out of town when
the murders of the Gilgil four were committed. However, in
an interview with the US Sun, attorney John Ray points
out he doesn't see how it's possible to ignore or
refuse to investigate Asa Eller up in light the purported
(36:00):
evidence he has uncovered.
Speaker 1 (36:07):
Crime stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
Sexy Rexy, it actually is nauseating to even say that
I'm talking about a legiterial killer. Rex Hureman arrested and
initially charged with the murder of three women, Amber Costello,
Melissa Bartolemy and Magan Watermen. Since then, he's been charged
with the murders of four more, Marine Brainerd Barnes, Santra Caristia,
(36:37):
Jessica Taylor, Valerie Mack. What do we know about the
deaths of these beautiful women? We know their bodies were
found dumped along Ocean Parkway near Gilgo Beach and other
remote spots.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
On Long Island.
Speaker 2 (36:51):
Some were bound, some have been dismembered. There remains discarded
in multiple locations. That doesn't have at all with the
quote life of the party, sexy, rexy, does it?
Speaker 1 (37:05):
Does it well?
Speaker 2 (37:06):
Listen to these facts pix eleven, Mary, thank you for
being with us again. Got two questions for you, and
the first one is about Asa Ellaup, the wife of
Rex Hureman. She has not been charged, she's not been
named a person of interest, but many people have wondered
how she could not know what was happening. That was
(37:29):
explained away by the fact that many of Hueman's meetings
with sex workers when she was out of town. This
paints her in an entirely different light.
Speaker 7 (37:43):
We don't know what kind of relationship miss Elearet pad.
Speaker 9 (37:46):
With her husband.
Speaker 7 (37:47):
We don't know the level of their intimacy. I can
just tell you that when this indictment was announced back
in July, the District Attorney Rate Tyranny, took great pains
to say he did not that the wife had any
knowledge of what was going on, and even the police commissioner,
Rodney Harrison, said he believed that rex Huwerman was living
(38:09):
a double life. I believe anything's possible. Perhaps there were
sex workers that went to the house, but from what
I'm gathering from the top law enforcement people on the case,
they did not think she had any involvement. I just
wanted to mention a couple of things. Rodney Harrison, the
former police commissioner, he was there for the vetting of
(38:30):
the second witness that John Ray has met with, and
while he said that he wanted to look at all
of these witnesses, he didn't want to leave any stone unturned.
It should be noted that he was very cautious. At
John Ray's press conference. He didn't give up much information.
He just said they would look at this information. And
(38:52):
it was significant though that he was there with John Ray.
I had never seen anything like that in my career.
He actually left police heads to join John Ray at
his private attorney's office.
Speaker 2 (39:04):
Well, I would not expect law enforcement to comment on
potential witnesses at this juncture, but you're right, the fact
that he's there with Ray when Ray is making the
statements about four new witnesses, speaks volumes. He doesn't have
to say anything for me to see that he's standing
there in solidarity with Ray. Also, we learned about another
(39:25):
creepy I'm not through yet on these four witnesses, but
another creepy fact has emerged. Take a listen hour cut
two four two from investigative reporter Dave mack Rex.
Speaker 12 (39:37):
Huerman was so obsessed about showing off his hunting skills
to a female colleague that he stalked her onto a
cruise ship. Mirel Henriquez tells CBS forty eight Hours that
Hureman asked her where she was going to be on
her fortieth birthday cruise. She told him, I'm going to
be in the middle of the ocean, and you're not
going to be able to find me in the middle
of the ocean. Heureerman told her, oh, yes, I can.
(39:59):
On the second day of her birthday cruise, a white
envelope was shoved under her cabin door. It was a
note from Huerman. The note said, I told you I
could find you anywhere.
Speaker 2 (40:09):
Okay, that's completely irrelevant to the trial on multiple murders,
but wow, I wish a Juri could hear that, because
it tells me volumes about rex Hueman himself. Mary Murphy,
what is a significance of the Sable Motor Lodge where,
(40:30):
according to one of these new witnesses she made a
pickup connected to Hureman.
Speaker 7 (40:34):
The first thing that I thought of when I heard
save Ill Motor Lodge was the fact that just recently
the Fedge locked it down, shut it down for good,
because it was the scene of major sex trafficking over
the years. And so when the allegation was made that
Shannon Gilbert was there and that she had allegedly met
(40:55):
human there, I thought of all the human trafficking that
was going on. Date John Ray in this Affidavid, which
was a sworn Affidavid noted that it was around two
thousand and nine in the fall. It would probably be
September October two thousand and nine when this incident happened,
and that was around the time earlier that summer that
(41:16):
Melissa Barthelemy had disappeared. But she disappeared from the Bronx.
She's one of the original Gilgo four found on Ocean
Parkway in twenty ten. So it becomes an interesting part
of the timeline. Melissa Barthelemy disappears in the summer of
two thousand and nine, and then in September October two
(41:36):
thousand and nine, this taxi driver allegedly saw a woman
she identifies as Shannon Gilbert with Rex Huerman at the
Sable Motor Lodge.
Speaker 2 (41:45):
Too John Ray, lawyer for the Shannon Gilbert family.
Speaker 1 (41:49):
In my mind, this is icing on the cake for
the state.
Speaker 9 (41:52):
Well, yeah, I suppose you could say, Silvia, I just
you know, you said that the missis Rikaz, the Huriman's secretary,
that the issue on the ocean cruiselner was irrelevant. It's
not actually Rex Heuerman. One of the items sees from
him in the police inventory was survivalist equipment. Doctor Peter Hackett,
(42:16):
who we have pinned as one of the people responsible
for Shannon's death, ran a company called Survivalist Dynamic, and
he ran it with a man who was a sea
captain for cruise ships. And the chances that Packet and
Huerman knew each other through the survivalist operation in Long
(42:38):
Island are very strong. It's a very small group of people.
They tend to connect with each other, meet with each other, etc.
And it wouldn't surprise me if there was a connection.
Speaker 2 (42:46):
There might very well be a connection in everything regarding
tracking her down on a cruise ship. Maybe true, But
after all your years of trying cases, do you believe
that evidence will come in a murder trial? Not yet, okay,
And that is why it would be damed irrelevant in trial,
not irrelevant to who Rex human is.
Speaker 1 (43:04):
That's why I.
Speaker 2 (43:06):
Played it because it tells me who he is, but
it's not coming into trial because it has nothing to
do with the victim. The Gilgo Beach victims tells me
a lot about him, but a jury's never going to
hear that.
Speaker 1 (43:17):
And I wish that they could doctor Joni Johnston joining
me out of California. What do you make of what
you've heard?
Speaker 10 (43:23):
Well, I think there's so many interesting parts of this,
and I'd have to agree with you, Nancy that the
whole issue of Rex Hureman tracking down one of his
employees just to show her that he has the power
to know where she is at all times, speaks of
volumes about his pychology, and you know, one of the
themes that has come up over and over in his
case in people talking about Rex Huereerman and looking at
(43:44):
some of the pornography he allegedly was looking at. Is
this issue of satism and getting pleasure out of causing
other people to comfort or pain and that is very
consistent with that.
Speaker 2 (43:54):
Robin Drake, behavioral expert, former FBI special agent, what do
you think?
Speaker 8 (43:59):
Yeah, I can agree more. He keeps the splay of
very consistent arc of behavior of control ower sadism, and
he targets and grooms fitting all the profiles as someone
that would do this. All these witnesses coming forward though,
really it's helping the prosecution. I believe, like it's been
stated at the same time, though I keep coming back
(44:19):
to we're seeing some law enforcement mishandling here as well.
It really paints an interesting picture on what's been transpiring there.
Speaker 2 (44:26):
Yeah, and that is going to play into the defense
because of the fact that there has been police misconduct
in the distant past, but it was during these investigations.
That's all they need to argue this DNA is irrelevant,
is planted, is tainted.
Speaker 1 (44:43):
They're going to use that.
Speaker 2 (44:45):
And that's why these eyewitnesses that John Ray, high profile
lawyers telling us about, become all the more significant because
they corroborate the DNA Mary Murphy joining US Pixy eleven
number one. The new body that has been found at
Sunken Meadows is that of a young male and it's
(45:08):
believed it was a recent murder. Hereman's in jail. He
didn't do it, but you know, I think it's significant,
Mary Murphy, because the defense can now argue, you see
the killer still out there, it's not Heureerman. Can't you
just see that unfolding in court?
Speaker 11 (45:26):
Mary Well.
Speaker 7 (45:26):
The first thing that I thought of when I heard
about the body in Sunken Meadow State Park was Wow,
could this be another victim? And you know I asked
the police commissioner about that. He told me he did
not think so.
Speaker 2 (45:39):
The so called perfect coworker and life of the party
who got his own sexy nickname Sexy Rexy now Stance
accused of multiple murders. We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy
Grace signing off Friday Night Special. I told you Special,
(46:00):
you believe me.
Speaker 1 (46:03):
Goodbye friend.
Speaker 11 (46:08):
Mm hmm
Host
Nancy Grace
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