June 15, 2025 • 45 mins
Joseph Scott Morgan puts on his teachers cap and explains decompositional changes and what really happens in the first minutes, hours, and days after death and tells the story of a rookie cop doing a simple welfare check calls for backup after finding a victim dead in his tv chair. The still wet behind the ears cop thinks the victim was killed with a hatchet, but all of the blood and body fluid appearing on the victims' shirt is not from a hatchet, the man had a heart attack. Joseph Scott Morgan and Dave Mack talk about the disintegration of body tissues after death, known as decomposition as well as the two processes of Decomposition and how important these processes will be in the upcoming trial of Bryan Kohberger for the murders of four college students in Idaho.
Transcript Highlights
00:03.14 Introduction
01:34.93 Professor Morgan is ready to teach
04:44.28 Reason for understanding decomposition
09:51.60 Can't always see it, but you can smell it
14:43.12 People dying on toilets
19:01.43 Disintegration, breaking down what is organic
24:31.13 Autolysis and Putrefaction
29:35.64 Body decomposing
34:59.98 Rigor mortis leaves, body becomes flaccid
40:12.40 Toes and fingers dry out
44:32.69 Natural Death looks like a murder
45:35.23 Conclusion
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Quality times, but Joseph's gotten more for the general public.
I think that what defines my profession. The first thing
that pops onto the radar is not necessarily injuries. You know,
horrible trauma, sadness, grief, all of those sorts of things.
(00:23):
The one question that people seem to ask me all
the time is how is it that you deal with
being around decomposing human remains. That's not necessarily a one
size fits all question. It is something that I learned
(00:46):
to do over a protracted period of time. Now, don't
misunderstand me. I never got completely used to it. I
think that all of you out there would probably think
that I was an absolute lunatic if I said that
I had. However, you do build up somewhat of a
callous to it after a time. But today we're going
(01:09):
to discuss human decomposition and I'm going to kind of
give you an insight from my perspective of death investigation.
So hold on to your hats, because classes in with
Professor Morgan. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is Body
(01:29):
Backs Brother Dave. Good to be back with you, man.
I've been on my world tour man all over Europe,
and hitting spots and Paris and Amsterdam and Liverpool.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
I was going to ask you if you met any Liverpudlians.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
I did you know? Yeah, I did meet a few
liver Pudlians. Pudlians, Puddlians, Poodlians.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
You know the thing Boundary called the Beatles because they
complete beatles and yeah, yeah, Jerry and the Pacemakers, Yeah,
called them Liverpoodlians.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Yeah. And let's see who else was it was it
Herman and the Hermits at say.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Peter across the Mersey. Who was that? That was not
Peter Noon in the Herman's Hermits.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
It was.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Across the Makers.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Yeah. I actually sat out and drank a pint next
to the Mersey River out there with the beautiful broad Kimmy,
and it was a glorious, glorious sunshiny day, gentle breeze
blowing in off the water. And when I say, and look,
we're we're back home in South It's like, I don't
know what eighty percent humidity out there, dude. We had
to wear sweatshirts and that's in you know, we're we're
(02:40):
in June and so and they were saying, oh, it's
nice warm weather, I'm thinking, wow, but it was. It
was enjoyable, it was refreshing. I'm glad to be back
home and uh, certainly glad to be back with you,
brother Dave. I've missed being on the air with you,
and uh and uh, you know, spent time over in
Crime Con Crime Con UK in London. So that was
(03:03):
that was a blast, and we're going to talk about
that more another episode. But I thought, coming back, you know,
we continue our series of forensic education with your humble
host here and you know, try to go down this line.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
But I got to tell you something.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
We had a show today on Nancy Grace and we
were talking about the Holly Bobo case. And in this
discussion that Nancy and I were having, we were talking
about blood in the garage. Holly Bobo was a twenty
year old kidnapped from her own home in Tennessee by
(03:41):
a couple of ruffians and she was actually in her
garage carport getting ready to get into her car to
go to school seven forty five in the morning when
she was taken.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Okay, yeah, And there.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
Were two different spots of blood in the garage and
Nancy was asking what did that mean? And I thought,
I'm not the right guy to answer this, but I
do know because of Joe, you know, And so I
actually broke it all down and I said, well, a
forensic person would say, and I was like, this blood
droplet is different than this blood smear, right, And it
(04:16):
was really cool to be able to bring that to
the discussion because then you know, it means something. Everything
that you talk about on this show with regard to
crime and it's body bags, but it actually helps all
of us to have a better understanding of when the
crime happens, how does it get solved? Ultimately, you and
(04:37):
I talk about the victims every day and how do
you It's never about closure, but it is about finding
some resolution, some finality, and finding the justice that that
person and their family deserves. And it all comes together forensically.
You have to prove it. You know, you can actually
convict a person of murder without ever having a dead bos.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Yeah you can. Yeah. The blood. The blood. The blood
for instance, many times it is representative of the corpus delecti,
which means the body of the case. And so, and
I think I've said this before, the more blood you have,
and uh, scientists love to use the term copious always like.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
That, copious amounts of blood.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
Yeah, copious amounts of blood. Uh, you know, huge volume
of blood. Which and again here here's another uh term
or the phrase they like to use, uh incompatibility with life.
You know, that's that's one of those things. You spill
so much blood, you know that, Uh, And depend upon
the person. You know, you have a finite amount of
blood in your body, and even that finite amount that
(05:42):
within the ranges of blood that you have within your body,
is going to dictate whether or not you're going to
survive or not, you know, whether it's it's going to
be sufficient to the task of providing yourselves with oxygenated
blood supply. So but uh, you know, with decomposition, we
we discuss blood in decomposition and blood in fact because
(06:05):
it is an element, a complex element. It's not a blood.
It's not a standalone substance. It's a it's a it's
a compound of many things, and blood itself does decome decompose. Uh.
All you know, not all I have to tell you is, uh, listen,
if you if you've ever had like a a rotten
(06:29):
bit of meat in your refrigerator, say, for instance, you
forgot the uh, the roast that was wrapped and sulfane.
It was in the back of your refrigerator and you say, oh,
look a roast and you pull it out and some
of that seeps out onto the floor.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
It's one of the fouls substances known to man. It's
not necessarily just the the you know that that element
of the roast that is decomposing, it's that liquid that's
contained therein which is blood and it changes color. It's
got an awful, awful scent to it. And we'll go
into that in this particular episode of body Bags. But yeah,
(07:05):
it's it's part and parcel of what we do people.
I want to go back just for a second though,
because many, many times people say, I don't see how
in the world you bear staying locked up in a
room which I have with a decomposing body, and how
(07:27):
can you do what you have to do scientifically as
far as assessments go, and and dwell that environment with
that and it's you know, how let me let me
just throw this out to you, Dave, Do you have
any idea how I adjusted my mindset to it, any
idea whatsoever? Like what did I do? I looked at it.
(07:51):
I looked at decomposition as a normal biological process, almost
like birth. And I've been present for the birth of
my children, and people will go on and on about
what a beautiful thing birth is. It is. It is
(08:12):
a beautiful thing, you know, when new life comes about. However,
it's an ugly thing too. If you've never been present
for a birth and you see what occurs in the
midst of all of this, it's a very bloody affair.
And so but that's a natural biological process. And I've
always tried to understand it from that perspective, if I
(08:35):
could ever get my because look, you know, death investigators
have bad days too, obviously. You know it's like you're
standing there. You don't want to be around a decomposing body.
But I have to You always kind of have to
anchor yourself in the thought that, Okay, if I'm going
to be here, I'm going to set my feet in stone.
I'm going to understand this is a normal biological process.
I have to get past the odor and the things
(08:56):
that you see that surround the body in order to
find the truth. And of course, in science, that's that's
all I'm interested in. I'm not interested in all this
other you know, peripheral stuff that a lot of people
go after, you know, in the criminal justice system. That stuff,
to me, uh is outside my wheelhouse. I like to
(09:17):
understand what science is trying to tell me and listen,
decomposition in human remains, Dave is one of the finest
teachers that it's out there.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
Now.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
It happens quick, doesn't it. I mean, when when we
from the moment we die, our body starts decomposing right away.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Isn't that correct?
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Yeah, it does. You can't small ways, Yeah, in small
ways you can't see it, you can't smell it. But yeah,
at at a cellular level, the sales begin to you know,
essentially break down, and you're not going to necessarily see
it immediately. And we're going to get into another episode
(09:57):
where we're going to be talking about immediate kind of
of post war changes, but we're kind of taking a
broad view. You're not going to get like, within within
minutes of death, you're not going to have a foul
odor emanating from the body that's associated with decomposition. Now,
you can't have a foul odor that's emanating from human remains,
(10:18):
save for instance, if they soil themselves right during the
throes of death, and that does, in fact happen. It
doesn't happen every time. A lot of people say, okay,
well doesn't that happen? Every single time.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
I thought that wasn't it. I learned it wasn't.
Speaker 3 (10:30):
But for the longest time I thought that when a
person died, everything just let go the sphincsen.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
There you go, Mary christ I'm glad.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
I'm glad you actually mentioned that because that you know
when you get that that release safer instance of an
individual's bowels. Many times, that will take some time to occur,
and you mentioned the sphincter muscle specifically. You have to
have that area of the tissue begin to break down
(11:01):
so that that tension is no longer there and if
there is feces in the bowel, it can release, and
that does happen. You'll have bladder releases many times. Lots
of times bladder releases happen. I found when they're in
the perimortem, say, when they're in the throes of death,
you know that that will occur, but you know you
(11:22):
you don't have it every single time. I think a
lot of people labor under this idea that it occurs
in every single event like this, and it just doesn't.
Speaker 3 (11:32):
Isn't that because part of its biology that we're all different.
I mean, like Elvis. When Elvis died, we know that
he had an impacted colon. Isn't that what that was called?
Speaker 1 (11:41):
Yeah? Yeah, he And a lot of that had to
do with these kind of opiate based drugs, which you'll.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
Find me consturbated all the time.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
He was, Yeah, he was. And people that are addicted to
things like heroin and morphine, and also any kind of opioid,
even if it's some kind of synthetic, you know, thing
that has been created a lot app it'll essentially lock
up the bowels. And I've done I've done autopsies on
individuals or participating in autopsies on individuals that are heroin ods,
(12:11):
and you'll have their entire large bowel with fecal impaction.
And it's a miserable existence because they can't I can't
pass you know anything. And plus they most of the
time they don't eat healthy foods anyway that keep the
system rolling. And they're they're hydrated either, which plays a
big role into it. So it doesn't happen every single time.
(12:33):
But interesting fact about about Elvis with his death, you
know his I think and I know that you're going
to know this, but I think his last his last
words were I'm I'm going to the bathroom to read.
I think it's what he told his girlfriend at the time. Yeah,
I need that. And so he's he's on the toilet
(12:55):
or as my grainyused saying, the code uh, he's on
the commode, and and he dies. And did you know
that there is a significant number of people, such a
significant number of people that are found dead on toilets
that we actually have a term, a kind of a
euphemistic term that we use in death investigation called toilet sign.
(13:18):
And here's why. Many folks that do die while seated
on the toilet, they have mistaken this urgency to go
to the bathroom that that is masking an m I
they're actually having a heart attack. So they will go
to the bathroom, sit on a toilet, and many times
(13:39):
the strain of being on the toilet will push them
over the edge. So yeah, wow, we literally have I
can't tell you it's a countless number. At first that
you know, when I was a young investigator, I didn't
think it was a real thing, and the older guys
had told me that it was a real thing. And
so you know how older guys, you know, they they
talked to us knuckleheads that are young. You don't believe
(14:02):
anything until it's proven to you, right, trust me, I've
got a twenty three year old son, and so when
it's demonstrated, you say, oh my gosh, they were right.
You know, Yeah, I've been catching all these cases is
their natural desks, but I've been catching these cases within
visuals on toilets, and so yeah, it's legitimate. I don't
know if there's ever been a definitive scientific study about
(14:22):
toilet sign but it's a real thing. It's something that
we talk about and we talked about it for years
and years in the field, and you know, we'll just say, yeah,
we have a toilet sign case today.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
So yeah, and that that that's a real thing that
does happen.
Speaker 3 (14:34):
But one of the things that when we start talking
about decomposition, and I didn't when you when you first
mentioned wanting to do this, do you realize that those
of us who follow crime report on crime cover, you know,
crimes that most of us only know the scientific aspect
(14:54):
of things when people like you are talking on a
crime show, because most of us are not in an
academic area. We're not taking you know, your class at school,
and this is the only way we find out is
by you sharing your knowledge. Because I don't know what happens.
I mean, I really don't. I know that the men
that I die, that everything stops living because I'm dead.
(15:17):
And obviously if you're not living, you're dying, which means
you're heading back to dirt eventually. Yeah, that's all I know.
I don't know the speed that it happens. I would
think it'd be very quickly.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
You know, in a broad sense. It look, everything is
environmentally dependent, you know, And I've mentioned this countless times
on our program, where you know, we're referring to uh,
the biggest the biggest factor's heat, you know where you know.
I've gone on on scenes, man, where I've had multiple
(15:53):
bodies in a location that all died as a result
of One case in particular, had I think it was
four guys that had transported dope from Mexico. They were
in a van and they were tasked with meeting person
they were gonna do the exchange with in a warehouse
area in Atlanta, actually not too far from Six Lags, Atlanta,
(16:17):
in a industrial park, and all four of these guys
were shot in the van through the windows and killed
and the dope was taken. We didn't find their bodies
for two months, and they were just parked under tree
and it's actually a conversion van that was over there
and no one. Some guy decided to walk back there
and smoke a cigarette and when he did, he catches
(16:38):
a whiff. Well, when I opened the door of that van,
when I got there, liquid came pouring out of the van,
and that was decompositional fluid. And so they'd been there
for two months. I've had them even worse than that,
where bodies will. They don't turn into puddles necessarily, but
(16:58):
the skin becomes very soft and spongy. It's much like
a sponge, and you can feel it kind of when
you place your hands on the decomposing tissue, it feels
like it feels almost like the crackling of bubble wrap
many times, and that's because the cells in that area
(17:21):
in some of these cases, they kind of expand with
these decompositional gases that are contained within that area, and
you can almost feel it crackle beneath your fingertips. I've
had friends that have said that, and this has never
happened to me. But I've had people that have said
that bodies when they go to pull on them literally
(17:43):
come apart it joints. Now, that's never happened with me.
I've had I've had the manifestation was referred to as
skin slippage. And you'll hear this in trials. Many times
they'll talk about skin slippage, for instance, and that's where
the epidermis, that top layer of skin, even down to
the dermis below, the epidermist will literally peel off, you know,
(18:05):
in your hand and that but that takes time, you know,
it takes a certain amount of time. There's almost like
this kind of tenderizing factor if you will give me
a little latitude there with that that that has to
take place. Eventually the bodies will in fact dry out,
But before they dry out, there's a whole process that
(18:27):
occurs before you ever get to that market. I think
it's important to understand that. You know, decomposition can mean
(18:48):
a variety of different things to folks. You know, when
when I was a kid, I had to build a
composting bind in the backyard. My mother is. She loves gardening,
she always has and so everywhere she's lived she's had
a composting bent. And well what does that mean. Well,
(19:11):
you in the composting bin, you're gonna prow organic materials
in there. I remember her putting coffee grounds and eggshells
and everything else, and not to mention all of the
leaves from the previous spall. And you have to turn it.
You have to turn it. Some people put earthworms in there,
all kinds of things going. But you're trying to break
down that organic substance that's in there, and it creates
(19:31):
this rich, you know, kind of rich stirt. And it's interesting, Dave,
that you said a few months ago that we that
we turn you know, we turned into dust. And you
know there's that old Bible verse that, you know, what
was it from dust you came, and from dust you
shall return? And that that is truly the definition of
(19:54):
what happens. It just takes some time. It's not it's
not some kind of fantastical movie event. You have to
you have to be down for a long time. But
what kicks this whole thing off is heat. Heat and
absence of life. But you know, kind of the functional
definition for decomposition, how do you define it? Well, it's
(20:14):
a disintegration of body tissues after death is known as decomposition.
And I'd mentioned to you just a moment ago that
one of my one of my favorite characters in Looney Tunes,
in the Looney Tunes universe is the Martian that you know,
(20:35):
he's got the disintegrator array that he uses, and of
course Bugs always turns it around on him. I don't
think any good Bugs money cartoons ever were made after
probably about nineteen seventy by the way, just my thoughts.
But anyway, you know what does disintegration mean? Well, we
know what integrated is That means to blend right, or
(20:57):
if you have integrated circuits. You know, for instance, if
you're talking, if you're speaking to somebody that's like an
electrical engineer, well we're we're actually integrated. All of our
systems are integrated. Well, once that spark of life has
left the body and you no longer have this process
of keeping cells oxygenated, you have cellular respiration that's going on,
(21:20):
these things over a period of time will actually begin
to pull apart and they naturally fall apart, and so
that's that's part of the process and it's something that
we you know, that you have to understand.
Speaker 3 (21:36):
All right, So as you're going through this entire process too,
I guess I'm approaching it a little bit different and
trying to think about the decomposition because, yeah, because it's
not something I'm used to talking about. You know, when
you're talking about the roast and the refrigerator. You know,
things like that opening a bad meat from the store
(21:59):
and you get that if you know that you're getting
something bad. So when you're talking about this beginning stages
here where it's starting to break down, what does that
tell you when you're coming in as an investigator and
looking at things as you are studying that individual. Because
all the time we want to know, well, we always
(22:20):
want to know the motive why did this happen? But
when when did this happen? You know, I've talked about that.
You've got to tell me exactly when this person died, Joe.
I need to know was it before or after dinner?
Did they eat dinner at ten o'clock or eight o'clock? Yeah,
And sometimes those things can't be told by the contents
of your stomach. There's got to be more.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
Yeah, you're right, And if you're looking for me or
any of my colleagues, tell you, and I'm saying to
you in the universal sense, Dave, that when somebody actually died,
it's an empirical impossibility. And anybody tells you that the
can is line and so you know, the short term
and that's a micro a micro examination you know when
(23:04):
and we'll talk about this on another episode. Even in
that sense, we the best we can do is some
people say they can do it in three you know,
within a three hour window. Most of the time, I
think it's going to be about four to five if
you cover all your bases something.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
Yeah, if you know, O, there's things surrounding it, because
you know, we build that timeline, and as we're building
the timeline of activity, you can take all that into
consideration and narrow it down even further based on what
you're seeing in the physical realm of the of the
actual decomposition. So yeah, you're not just blindly finding a
body on the street, you know, right.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
Yeah, if you if you can, if you can kind
of well here's the word, integrate some of those circumstantial
finds right, Yeah, you've you've got a better shot. But broadly,
you know, when we're talking about decomposition, very broadly, that's
that's hard to do. It's it's very difficult to particularly
if you have a body that we listen, we use
(24:01):
terms like early decomposition, modern decomposition, and advanced decomposition, and
then you'll have skeletonization. So you've got kind of that
spectrum of four things there. When one of the things
that you have to consider is that there's actually two
processs of decomposition going on, and kind of the way
(24:22):
in my simple mind, the way I like to look
at it, you have autolytic changes in auto mean self, right,
So you have autolsis that goes on, which is kind
of body breaking down from within. And if you think
about it from the perspective of a body literally digesting itself,
that's autolysis. Okay, So you know everything that is contained
(24:45):
within life when you have cellular respiration on the systems
or firing ceases to be at that point in time,
so the body begins to kind of from an enzyme standpoint,
begins to kind of digest itself. Then you have future
faction that goes on and then you know, in very
broad terms, you begin to you know, think about changes
(25:09):
that are produced by you know, the action of bacteria
and micro organisms, and that can that can come like
in an external manifestation. And then you have, you know,
if you think about even more broadly, you you have
the introduction of animals or even insects that are attacking
the body externally, and then you know, and that's going
(25:30):
to promote decomposition. So there's you've got a lot to
kind of consider when you come across a body that's
bloated and rotting and kind of you know, coming to
part one of the things that's always fascinated me. And uh,
in my my students at JSU, I'll ask them this
(25:50):
question and uh and of course I'll get this resounding
sound you know when I give it to them. If
you've ever seen one of these uh steakhouse commercials where
they'll say we've got beautiful dry aged beef or we
do wet aging process, you know what they're talking about.
(26:13):
They're tenderizing those steaks that they have through the process
of decomposition, you know, and you can have dry age,
which if you go to if one of my goals
in life is to try to get a reservation at
Luger Steakhouse in Manhattan. It's supposed to be the best
steak in the world, because I think I know where
the best steak in the world is, and that's Charlie
(26:33):
Steakhouse in New Orleans. So I want to see what
Lugers is.
Speaker 3 (26:36):
But they have a we have just set a goal
for body bags.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
You and I. You've got to take me to Charlie's
in North I'll.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
Take you to Charlie's. Yeah, I will take you to
Charlie's and uh and one of the best best dining
experiences I've ever had. But with Charlie's, Charlie's uses I
think they used to use a rye agent method. And
the thing about it is with that they're talking about
they get this fine cut of beef, and we don't
(27:07):
like to think about this sort of thing. But you know,
aged beef is far better to eat than say, for instance,
if you take it right off the hoof, you have
to you have to let it, you have to let
it decompose. And that's that's and they don't use the
term decomposed. They say age. You know, it's it's much
more mellow. You know, it's like a it's like an
(27:28):
aged whiskey or wine of vintage wine. They try to
put it in those terms, but what it comes down
to is decomposing so that we can eat it, you know,
so that it's tender for us to eat.
Speaker 3 (27:39):
So we're really not talking about getting fresh meat. We're
talking about getting I mean, I'm kind of grossed up
by that, Joe.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
I didn't know that. I really did.
Speaker 3 (27:48):
I thought, if I go down here to where they've
got this, there's a bunch of cattle out here, and
they've got some pretty fat ones.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
Look good.
Speaker 3 (27:55):
Yeah, that if I was to get that one skin
that you take care of the hide, I want that
turn that into a steak, like to have that tomorrow
morning with my eggs. That's not going to be worth
eating compared to something that's.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
I'm not saying it's not. It's probably edible, but it's
not going to match up to Charlie's or from rumor
has it to Lugers in Manhattan because they have aged
that beef. Well. In terms of human decomposition, there's an
aging process that goes on and if it's not controlled,
which in the sense of you know, when people are
(28:26):
eating beef. That's a controlled environment. If a body is
left out, say in the wild or even in a house,
and the body is not refrigerated, the body is going
to do what bodies do. And look, this can be
stemmed through the process of what mortuary scientists do, and
that is infuse the body or profuse the body with
(28:49):
embalming fluid and they cease that process you know of,
or slow it down decompositional process. It kind of freezes
it for that moment. And with decomposition, though, you have
to get there early in order to stop it, because this,
(29:09):
I can tell you, with decomposition, once it starts, it's
like a barreling freight train. It's really hard to get
to handle on it. Okay. And so when you hear
people say, well, and this is non trauma related. You
have some elderly person that has been not found for
(29:31):
a week or two weeks in a home and the
mortuary says, well, you're gonna have to have closed casket.
People say, well, why would you have to have closed casket? Well,
it because the body has been decomposing for that period
of time, maybe under the most adverse conditions. You can
imagine where you know there's no there's no air con
(29:51):
that's that's operating. Maybe there's subject to I don't know,
flies and everything else that's in, and there's there's no
amount of restorate of work. I guess there is. You'd
have to pay a lot of money, but there's really
no amount of restorated work that you can go in
and you can patch this person up so that they're
presentable for an open casket. So the absence of an
(30:13):
open casket does not necessarily mean this is a trauma
related event. Many times it can be decompositional related.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
And okay, let me.
Speaker 3 (30:24):
Back to just on decomposition. When you're talking, you know,
twenty four to thirty six hours, right, you're going to
start seeing outward signs of the decomposition of the body, right, Yes, okay,
in that first twenty four hours, and in particular, I'm
thinking about in Idaho, in Moscow, Idaho, where the four
(30:45):
college students were murdered, and we believe based on the
information which I really want to talk to you about
that timeline, but what we understand is that sometime between
four and four thirty in the morning, all four of
these students were murdered by knife. But their bodies were
not found by law enforcement until eight hours later. All right,
(31:09):
is there going to be I mean, is there going
to be significant changes in the body during that eight
hour time period?
Speaker 1 (31:18):
Not in the broad sense that we're in a macro
sense that we're talking about here, real broadly, where you're
going to have bloating and all those things that are
commonly associated with decomposition, you're not going to have it
in there. However, I think that it's key that we
come back and address that the Idaho killings when we
discuss the micro the micro sense of decomposition and those
(31:41):
changes within that eleven hour framework you're not going to
see or eleven to twelve hour framework, you're not going
to see much happen. It's with how can I say
this with an external manifestation which can be appreciated with
the unaided eye, you know, where you're examining the body. However,
within the twenty four to thirty six hour and again,
(32:02):
these these brackets of time are very very broad. One
of the things that will happen and something that kind
of manifests itself if everybody that's listening to me will
take your right hand and place it above the level
of your pelvis on the right side of your app
to when that approximates the area where your appendix is.
(32:23):
No one can really explain it. But one of the
things that we see manifested in decomposition, like an external manifestation,
is that that area you'll get a focal area of
greenish discoloration that will occur there, and it truly is.
It turns kind of a green color, and that many
many times doesn't happen in every case, but many times
(32:44):
it'll be you know, that's generally about twenty four to
thirty six hours. Well, Morgan, why is that important? Well,
it's important because if I have that manifestation that is occurring,
that's a marker in time. Okay. So if I look
at the body and I have no other information, if
I'm just visually eyeball in the body and I see
I see you know, this greenish coloration on the abdomen,
(33:08):
I can say, Wow, this might be an indications person's
been down at least twenty four to thirty six hours.
And you roll that into the idea that maybe their
limbs are flaccid, and flaccid means flexible, okay, or bendable. Well,
that means that riger's already left the body.
Speaker 3 (33:25):
Okay, so I gotta know, yeah, because I, like many people,
don't know how quickly does rigormort to set in and
how quickly does it let go. Because we all know
of stories that we've told. As a matter of fact,
we had one not that long ago where two gentlemen
(33:48):
killed the third guy that they were having a three
way party with and went to get a tub at
home depot or wherever. And when they came back, the
guy was stiff and they had to break his legs
and beat him, you know, his body to make it
soft enough to get in the top. If they just waited,
how long would they have to wait for the body
to or twenty four to.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
Thirty six hours? Okay, twenty four to thirty thirty six hours,
and uh, it's going to remain fixed. And that's the
one thing I never can understand about people that that
desecreate bodies beyond what they've already been desecrated. Where they
get you know, axes and these sorts of things, and
you know, try to chop the legs off or whatever
(34:29):
if you wait. And again, obviously tom plays a factor
because anybody that brings death upon another person. They're not
wanting to hang around and be patient about it. The
body's become flashed again. They become what's termed malleable again,
so that you can bend them, you can contract them all.
You know, Roger Morris doesn't hang around forever and ever
eight minutes just not one of those things that occurs,
(34:51):
particularly in an unembalmed state. So you know, it will leave,
it dissipates over a period of time. But when you're
looking out over you know, kind of broadly over this
the spectrum of death with decomposition, you you look for
(35:14):
other signs as as you march down that timeline, Like
after you get beyond that that greenish discoloration that takes
place on the abdomen, you're talking about thirty six to
forty eight hours, Uh, the body will become or start
to distend, which means it'll you'll see the first signs
(35:37):
of bloating. You know, the abdomen begins to swell up well,
and the face will swell too. You know, you'll see
the face beginning to kind.
Speaker 3 (35:45):
Of if a person has had their appendix out, yeah,
does there still is there still a greenish type of color?
Speaker 2 (35:52):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (35:53):
Yeah, manifests down there, and I don't know why it is,
because that's kind of the uh at that end where
you have the vernis called the verniform appendix sound there.
Verniform is like I think it's the Latin word for
worm is actually what it translates into.
Speaker 2 (36:12):
It.
Speaker 1 (36:12):
It will still manifest down that area even you know,
if an individual is absent their appendix and it's down
in that that area, I don't know if it because
it's on the opposite end of the large vowel from
where you know, the rectum is okay, so it's kind
of looped all the way around there, and you know
that's where the food that's being digested in the you know,
(36:36):
in the small intestine dumps into that part of the intestine,
the lower right side if you're talking about the right
side of the versus body, and then it traverses from
the uscending large vowel to the where it crosses over
(36:56):
into the descending bowel and eventually it is eliminated for
in the body. I don't know if that plays a
role into it, but you know, you couple that and
you go to another stage where you've got this kind
of slight bloating that's going on and with and particularly
the facial notice it. You'll get kind of the face,
we'll have a swollen appearance, and you'll also see the
(37:18):
first signs of something. Here's another term they use in
in butchery with beef. It doesn't mean the same thing,
but you'll we use this term called marbling. And marbling
if you imagine if you've got a spider web that
would normally be I don't know, spider webs are gray white.
(37:39):
If you imagine a black spider web superimposed upon a
body and it's got these kind of weird lines that
run all over the place. It's it's black, dark, dark black. Well,
that's like blood that is decomposing in the vessels and
it's showing through the face. So you'll see it first
(38:01):
manifest kind of around the jowls and the cheeks and
that sort of thing the neck, and that'll extend out
as time goes by, so you'll have these kind of
curve linear lines you know, that run over, you know,
all over the body. And that's actually what we refer
to as marveling. But again, Dave, that brings us back
to this benchmarking of time. That's you know, you're going
to talk about top end. That's that's going to take
(38:23):
about forty eight hours, you know, with an unattended body
that's found ideally in a protected environment, you know, like
in a house where you know, you don't have any
kind of postmortem feasting that's going on with animals or
things like that. And again, the more of these little
markers that we can get as death investigators, it allows us,
(38:49):
through science and the natural biological process, to tell the
story of the dead. I know a lot of people
(39:09):
are fans of dried fruit that are listening out there.
I see it everywhere I go, you know, in various
grocery stores and this sort of thing. I've never really
developed a taste for it. It's kind of like when
I was a kid. I don't know about you, Dave,
but when I was a kid, I was made to
(39:29):
eat beef liver. I can't do it anymore. And the
reason I can't do it anymore is that beef liver
looks just like human liver to me, you know, and
not participate in all those autopsies for all those years.
But with the dried fruit, one of the things I
think about when I see it is a term that
we refer to is desication because I call it desiccated.
(39:49):
You know, it's dried, you know, and desiccation or the
drying of limbs and particularly our penages like our feet,
your toes, feet, fingers in your hands. The more peripheral
you are to that kind of center core in a body,
the higher the probability is that area is going to
dry out. And that's what desiccation is. So if you're
(40:12):
if you you know, you couple that with the the
bloating that you see, and that's the next step that
you move on to is going to be manifested. The
idea that the extremities and I'm talking about it, if
you'll just touch your fingertips or tips of your toes
right now, those areas out of every other location in
the body will become dry first. And so the fingers,
(40:34):
the fingers actually take on an appearance like you know,
when you're little and your mom tells you, you know,
let me look at your hands, how long you've been
in the pool. You get this kind of shriveled appearance here.
That's basically the way it looks. The only difference is
is that with the tips of fingers and decomposition and
it happens to the nose as well. It'll turn, it'll
(40:57):
turn kind of a black discoloration and it's dried out.
There's no more moisture, you know, left in that environment.
And so if we benchmark that time, you know, you're
talking about probably about forty eight to sixty hours down
range after death. At that point in time when you're
(41:17):
you know, you're kind of pacing yourself through the scene.
That's why it's important at a scene that you you
don't want to miss anything, but at the scene, particularly
for the purposes of contextualizing things, it's important to be
able to see to see it for what it is,
you know, at the scene, and be able to document
that you observe that there, you know, before you remove
(41:39):
the body at you know, at the scene and take
take the body to the corner's office of the medical
examiner's office where it's going to be examined.
Speaker 3 (41:46):
You mentioned about the nose, and I'm thinking it is
Michael Jackson. Yeah, I had so many surgeries on his nose.
He give had a prosthetic end to his nose.
Speaker 1 (41:53):
Yeah. Can I tell you, Uh, there are a couple
of times, a couple of images I have seen of
him over the years where it actually made my mind
drift back to people that I when I examine their bodies,
their nose had that same appearance. It's kind of dried,
and it gives it a, I don't know how to
say it, a very diminutive appearance, as it's not robust
(42:15):
and full like you see and lie fingers in particular,
fingers are really creepy on the dead because when they're shrivelled,
they're shriveled at the ends. They almost have like a
claw like manifestation. What's really interesting, as fingers shrivelled and
toast rivel, the abdomen actually begins to bloat. So you've
got this kind of juxtaposition. And with the bloating of
(42:38):
the abdomen you're talking, you know, seventy two hours, that
begins to happen. So the body is swelling, and what's
happening is all this gas is building up in the body,
and as it builds up, one of the foulus substances
known to man begins to exude from the body, and
it generally will any orifice in the body it'll come through,
and you see it a lot in the nose, the mouth,
(43:01):
and it's it's called purging. So you've got this cellular
substance where the cells are breaking down and it's a
combination of blood and other elements and it creates this flow.
And I think i'd shown this image to you, Dave,
of this fellow that city in a chair. Uh, and
(43:21):
he's swollen bloated. And you know that guy, Dave in life,
he only weighed about one hundred and sixty pounds.
Speaker 2 (43:28):
Oh my yeah, but punds man that'd been shot in
the chest.
Speaker 1 (43:32):
I know. And all of the blood that you see
on his chest. Everything that you see on his chest
is not blood. Well it's blood in it, that's that's
actually perge fluid or detail fluid. Yeah, and it's pouring,
it's coming out of his nose, in his mouth.
Speaker 3 (43:45):
You're talking about the picture of the guy sitting in
the chair, like yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, wow. Okay,
Just so y'all know, And I'm not going to include
this on I'm not going to show you guys this
picture that picture for that, but it's in this presentation.
And I opened the page and Joe explains these things
to me ahead of time. It's not going to make
me look like a total dummy. And I opened that
picture and I'm not kidding. I thought the guy had
(44:07):
been shot because and that he was discovered a day
or two later. I didn't realize that this was a
fairly small guy and died of natural causes.
Speaker 1 (44:15):
I've got a fascinating story that goes along with that,
because there was a very young police officer that called
my office the day that he was the first person
to show up. It was a welfare check they'd gone
out on and the guy lived alone. He had been
divorced for a while, and he was I think he
was like in his late fifties and he was working.
(44:36):
You seeing the image, you're still wearing t shirt with
jeans and work boots. And he sat in his chair
and had a heart attack and died. Well, the young cop.
And I'm not judging this guy because I would have
thought the same thing. He called me from a landline
at that time. This was many years ago, and said, yeah,
we need you out here immediately. I think we've got
a guy that has been beaten to death. And he
(44:59):
even said at that time someone may have used a
hatchet on him or an axe. And when you see this,
it's so grotesque. And over the top. That's what you're thinking.
You know, your mind automatically goes to that, because where
could all this the staining come from. And it's even
contrasted by the fact that the guy's wearing a white
T shirt. Well, the guy has no trauma to his body.
That's all decomp fluid that it's It is one of
(45:23):
the most disgusting substances known to man. And once it
makes contact with anything you're wearing, your clothing or anything
like that, go ahead and start the bonfire and burn
those clothes because you'll never they're unusable after that point.
I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body
Quality times, but Joseph's gotten more for the general public.
I think that what defines my profession. The first thing
that pops onto the radar is not necessarily injuries. You know,
horrible trauma, sadness, grief, all of those sorts of things.
(00:23):
The one question that people seem to ask me all
the time is how is it that you deal with
being around decomposing human remains. That's not necessarily a one
size fits all question. It is something that I learned
(00:46):
to do over a protracted period of time. Now, don't
misunderstand me. I never got completely used to it. I
think that all of you out there would probably think
that I was an absolute lunatic if I said that
I had. However, you do build up somewhat of a
callous to it after a time. But today we're going
(01:09):
to discuss human decomposition and I'm going to kind of
give you an insight from my perspective of death investigation.
So hold on to your hats, because classes in with
Professor Morgan. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is Body
(01:29):
Backs Brother Dave. Good to be back with you, man.
I've been on my world tour man all over Europe,
and hitting spots and Paris and Amsterdam and Liverpool.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
I was going to ask you if you met any Liverpudlians.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
I did you know? Yeah, I did meet a few
liver Pudlians. Pudlians, Puddlians, Poodlians.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
You know the thing Boundary called the Beatles because they
complete beatles and yeah, yeah, Jerry and the Pacemakers, Yeah,
called them Liverpoodlians.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Yeah. And let's see who else was it was it
Herman and the Hermits at say.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Peter across the Mersey. Who was that? That was not
Peter Noon in the Herman's Hermits.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
It was.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Across the Makers.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Yeah. I actually sat out and drank a pint next
to the Mersey River out there with the beautiful broad Kimmy,
and it was a glorious, glorious sunshiny day, gentle breeze
blowing in off the water. And when I say, and look,
we're we're back home in South It's like, I don't
know what eighty percent humidity out there, dude. We had
to wear sweatshirts and that's in you know, we're we're
(02:40):
in June and so and they were saying, oh, it's
nice warm weather, I'm thinking, wow, but it was. It
was enjoyable, it was refreshing. I'm glad to be back
home and uh, certainly glad to be back with you,
brother Dave. I've missed being on the air with you,
and uh and uh, you know, spent time over in
Crime Con Crime Con UK in London. So that was
(03:03):
that was a blast, and we're going to talk about
that more another episode. But I thought, coming back, you know,
we continue our series of forensic education with your humble
host here and you know, try to go down this line.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
But I got to tell you something.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
We had a show today on Nancy Grace and we
were talking about the Holly Bobo case. And in this
discussion that Nancy and I were having, we were talking
about blood in the garage. Holly Bobo was a twenty
year old kidnapped from her own home in Tennessee by
(03:41):
a couple of ruffians and she was actually in her
garage carport getting ready to get into her car to
go to school seven forty five in the morning when
she was taken.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Okay, yeah, And there.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
Were two different spots of blood in the garage and
Nancy was asking what did that mean? And I thought,
I'm not the right guy to answer this, but I
do know because of Joe, you know, And so I
actually broke it all down and I said, well, a
forensic person would say, and I was like, this blood
droplet is different than this blood smear, right, And it
(04:16):
was really cool to be able to bring that to
the discussion because then you know, it means something. Everything
that you talk about on this show with regard to
crime and it's body bags, but it actually helps all
of us to have a better understanding of when the
crime happens, how does it get solved? Ultimately, you and
(04:37):
I talk about the victims every day and how do
you It's never about closure, but it is about finding
some resolution, some finality, and finding the justice that that
person and their family deserves. And it all comes together forensically.
You have to prove it. You know, you can actually
convict a person of murder without ever having a dead bos.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Yeah you can. Yeah. The blood. The blood. The blood
for instance, many times it is representative of the corpus delecti,
which means the body of the case. And so, and
I think I've said this before, the more blood you have,
and uh, scientists love to use the term copious always like.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
That, copious amounts of blood.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
Yeah, copious amounts of blood. Uh, you know, huge volume
of blood. Which and again here here's another uh term
or the phrase they like to use, uh incompatibility with life.
You know, that's that's one of those things. You spill
so much blood, you know that, Uh, And depend upon
the person. You know, you have a finite amount of
blood in your body, and even that finite amount that
(05:42):
within the ranges of blood that you have within your body,
is going to dictate whether or not you're going to
survive or not, you know, whether it's it's going to
be sufficient to the task of providing yourselves with oxygenated
blood supply. So but uh, you know, with decomposition, we
we discuss blood in decomposition and blood in fact because
(06:05):
it is an element, a complex element. It's not a blood.
It's not a standalone substance. It's a it's a it's
a compound of many things, and blood itself does decome decompose. Uh.
All you know, not all I have to tell you is, uh, listen,
if you if you've ever had like a a rotten
(06:29):
bit of meat in your refrigerator, say, for instance, you
forgot the uh, the roast that was wrapped and sulfane.
It was in the back of your refrigerator and you say, oh,
look a roast and you pull it out and some
of that seeps out onto the floor.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
It's one of the fouls substances known to man. It's
not necessarily just the the you know that that element
of the roast that is decomposing, it's that liquid that's
contained therein which is blood and it changes color. It's
got an awful, awful scent to it. And we'll go
into that in this particular episode of body Bags. But yeah,
(07:05):
it's it's part and parcel of what we do people.
I want to go back just for a second though,
because many, many times people say, I don't see how
in the world you bear staying locked up in a
room which I have with a decomposing body, and how
(07:27):
can you do what you have to do scientifically as
far as assessments go, and and dwell that environment with
that and it's you know, how let me let me
just throw this out to you, Dave, Do you have
any idea how I adjusted my mindset to it, any
idea whatsoever? Like what did I do? I looked at it.
(07:51):
I looked at decomposition as a normal biological process, almost
like birth. And I've been present for the birth of
my children, and people will go on and on about
what a beautiful thing birth is. It is. It is
(08:12):
a beautiful thing, you know, when new life comes about. However,
it's an ugly thing too. If you've never been present
for a birth and you see what occurs in the
midst of all of this, it's a very bloody affair.
And so but that's a natural biological process. And I've
always tried to understand it from that perspective, if I
(08:35):
could ever get my because look, you know, death investigators
have bad days too, obviously. You know it's like you're
standing there. You don't want to be around a decomposing body.
But I have to You always kind of have to
anchor yourself in the thought that, Okay, if I'm going
to be here, I'm going to set my feet in stone.
I'm going to understand this is a normal biological process.
I have to get past the odor and the things
(08:56):
that you see that surround the body in order to
find the truth. And of course, in science, that's that's
all I'm interested in. I'm not interested in all this
other you know, peripheral stuff that a lot of people
go after, you know, in the criminal justice system. That stuff,
to me, uh is outside my wheelhouse. I like to
(09:17):
understand what science is trying to tell me and listen,
decomposition in human remains, Dave is one of the finest
teachers that it's out there.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
Now.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
It happens quick, doesn't it. I mean, when when we
from the moment we die, our body starts decomposing right away.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Isn't that correct?
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Yeah, it does. You can't small ways, Yeah, in small
ways you can't see it, you can't smell it. But yeah,
at at a cellular level, the sales begin to you know,
essentially break down, and you're not going to necessarily see
it immediately. And we're going to get into another episode
(09:57):
where we're going to be talking about immediate kind of
of post war changes, but we're kind of taking a
broad view. You're not going to get like, within within
minutes of death, you're not going to have a foul
odor emanating from the body that's associated with decomposition. Now,
you can't have a foul odor that's emanating from human remains,
(10:18):
save for instance, if they soil themselves right during the
throes of death, and that does, in fact happen. It
doesn't happen every time. A lot of people say, okay,
well doesn't that happen? Every single time.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
I thought that wasn't it. I learned it wasn't.
Speaker 3 (10:30):
But for the longest time I thought that when a
person died, everything just let go the sphincsen.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
There you go, Mary christ I'm glad.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
I'm glad you actually mentioned that because that you know
when you get that that release safer instance of an
individual's bowels. Many times, that will take some time to occur,
and you mentioned the sphincter muscle specifically. You have to
have that area of the tissue begin to break down
(11:01):
so that that tension is no longer there and if
there is feces in the bowel, it can release, and
that does happen. You'll have bladder releases many times. Lots
of times bladder releases happen. I found when they're in
the perimortem, say, when they're in the throes of death,
you know that that will occur, but you know you
(11:22):
you don't have it every single time. I think a
lot of people labor under this idea that it occurs
in every single event like this, and it just doesn't.
Speaker 3 (11:32):
Isn't that because part of its biology that we're all different.
I mean, like Elvis. When Elvis died, we know that
he had an impacted colon. Isn't that what that was called?
Speaker 1 (11:41):
Yeah? Yeah, he And a lot of that had to
do with these kind of opiate based drugs, which you'll.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
Find me consturbated all the time.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
He was, Yeah, he was. And people that are addicted to
things like heroin and morphine, and also any kind of opioid,
even if it's some kind of synthetic, you know, thing
that has been created a lot app it'll essentially lock
up the bowels. And I've done I've done autopsies on
individuals or participating in autopsies on individuals that are heroin ods,
(12:11):
and you'll have their entire large bowel with fecal impaction.
And it's a miserable existence because they can't I can't
pass you know anything. And plus they most of the
time they don't eat healthy foods anyway that keep the
system rolling. And they're they're hydrated either, which plays a
big role into it. So it doesn't happen every single time.
(12:33):
But interesting fact about about Elvis with his death, you
know his I think and I know that you're going
to know this, but I think his last his last
words were I'm I'm going to the bathroom to read.
I think it's what he told his girlfriend at the time. Yeah,
I need that. And so he's he's on the toilet
(12:55):
or as my grainyused saying, the code uh, he's on
the commode, and and he dies. And did you know
that there is a significant number of people, such a
significant number of people that are found dead on toilets
that we actually have a term, a kind of a
euphemistic term that we use in death investigation called toilet sign.
(13:18):
And here's why. Many folks that do die while seated
on the toilet, they have mistaken this urgency to go
to the bathroom that that is masking an m I
they're actually having a heart attack. So they will go
to the bathroom, sit on a toilet, and many times
(13:39):
the strain of being on the toilet will push them
over the edge. So yeah, wow, we literally have I
can't tell you it's a countless number. At first that
you know, when I was a young investigator, I didn't
think it was a real thing, and the older guys
had told me that it was a real thing. And
so you know how older guys, you know, they they
talked to us knuckleheads that are young. You don't believe
(14:02):
anything until it's proven to you, right, trust me, I've
got a twenty three year old son, and so when
it's demonstrated, you say, oh my gosh, they were right.
You know, Yeah, I've been catching all these cases is
their natural desks, but I've been catching these cases within
visuals on toilets, and so yeah, it's legitimate. I don't
know if there's ever been a definitive scientific study about
(14:22):
toilet sign but it's a real thing. It's something that
we talk about and we talked about it for years
and years in the field, and you know, we'll just say, yeah,
we have a toilet sign case today.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
So yeah, and that that that's a real thing that
does happen.
Speaker 3 (14:34):
But one of the things that when we start talking
about decomposition, and I didn't when you when you first
mentioned wanting to do this, do you realize that those
of us who follow crime report on crime cover, you know,
crimes that most of us only know the scientific aspect
(14:54):
of things when people like you are talking on a
crime show, because most of us are not in an
academic area. We're not taking you know, your class at school,
and this is the only way we find out is
by you sharing your knowledge. Because I don't know what happens.
I mean, I really don't. I know that the men
that I die, that everything stops living because I'm dead.
(15:17):
And obviously if you're not living, you're dying, which means
you're heading back to dirt eventually. Yeah, that's all I know.
I don't know the speed that it happens. I would
think it'd be very quickly.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
You know, in a broad sense. It look, everything is
environmentally dependent, you know, And I've mentioned this countless times
on our program, where you know, we're referring to uh,
the biggest the biggest factor's heat, you know where you know.
I've gone on on scenes, man, where I've had multiple
(15:53):
bodies in a location that all died as a result
of One case in particular, had I think it was
four guys that had transported dope from Mexico. They were
in a van and they were tasked with meeting person
they were gonna do the exchange with in a warehouse
area in Atlanta, actually not too far from Six Lags, Atlanta,
(16:17):
in a industrial park, and all four of these guys
were shot in the van through the windows and killed
and the dope was taken. We didn't find their bodies
for two months, and they were just parked under tree
and it's actually a conversion van that was over there
and no one. Some guy decided to walk back there
and smoke a cigarette and when he did, he catches
(16:38):
a whiff. Well, when I opened the door of that van,
when I got there, liquid came pouring out of the van,
and that was decompositional fluid. And so they'd been there
for two months. I've had them even worse than that,
where bodies will. They don't turn into puddles necessarily, but
(16:58):
the skin becomes very soft and spongy. It's much like
a sponge, and you can feel it kind of when
you place your hands on the decomposing tissue, it feels
like it feels almost like the crackling of bubble wrap
many times, and that's because the cells in that area
(17:21):
in some of these cases, they kind of expand with
these decompositional gases that are contained within that area, and
you can almost feel it crackle beneath your fingertips. I've
had friends that have said that, and this has never
happened to me. But I've had people that have said
that bodies when they go to pull on them literally
(17:43):
come apart it joints. Now, that's never happened with me.
I've had I've had the manifestation was referred to as
skin slippage. And you'll hear this in trials. Many times
they'll talk about skin slippage, for instance, and that's where
the epidermis, that top layer of skin, even down to
the dermis below, the epidermist will literally peel off, you know,
(18:05):
in your hand and that but that takes time, you know,
it takes a certain amount of time. There's almost like
this kind of tenderizing factor if you will give me
a little latitude there with that that that has to
take place. Eventually the bodies will in fact dry out,
But before they dry out, there's a whole process that
(18:27):
occurs before you ever get to that market. I think
it's important to understand that. You know, decomposition can mean
(18:48):
a variety of different things to folks. You know, when
when I was a kid, I had to build a
composting bind in the backyard. My mother is. She loves gardening,
she always has and so everywhere she's lived she's had
a composting bent. And well what does that mean. Well,
(19:11):
you in the composting bin, you're gonna prow organic materials
in there. I remember her putting coffee grounds and eggshells
and everything else, and not to mention all of the
leaves from the previous spall. And you have to turn it.
You have to turn it. Some people put earthworms in there,
all kinds of things going. But you're trying to break
down that organic substance that's in there, and it creates
(19:31):
this rich, you know, kind of rich stirt. And it's interesting, Dave,
that you said a few months ago that we that
we turn you know, we turned into dust. And you
know there's that old Bible verse that, you know, what
was it from dust you came, and from dust you
shall return? And that that is truly the definition of
(19:54):
what happens. It just takes some time. It's not it's
not some kind of fantastical movie event. You have to
you have to be down for a long time. But
what kicks this whole thing off is heat. Heat and
absence of life. But you know, kind of the functional
definition for decomposition, how do you define it? Well, it's
(20:14):
a disintegration of body tissues after death is known as decomposition.
And I'd mentioned to you just a moment ago that
one of my one of my favorite characters in Looney Tunes,
in the Looney Tunes universe is the Martian that you know,
(20:35):
he's got the disintegrator array that he uses, and of
course Bugs always turns it around on him. I don't
think any good Bugs money cartoons ever were made after
probably about nineteen seventy by the way, just my thoughts.
But anyway, you know what does disintegration mean? Well, we
know what integrated is That means to blend right, or
(20:57):
if you have integrated circuits. You know, for instance, if
you're talking, if you're speaking to somebody that's like an
electrical engineer, well we're we're actually integrated. All of our
systems are integrated. Well, once that spark of life has
left the body and you no longer have this process
of keeping cells oxygenated, you have cellular respiration that's going on,
(21:20):
these things over a period of time will actually begin
to pull apart and they naturally fall apart, and so
that's that's part of the process and it's something that
we you know, that you have to understand.
Speaker 3 (21:36):
All right, So as you're going through this entire process too,
I guess I'm approaching it a little bit different and
trying to think about the decomposition because, yeah, because it's
not something I'm used to talking about. You know, when
you're talking about the roast and the refrigerator. You know,
things like that opening a bad meat from the store
(21:59):
and you get that if you know that you're getting
something bad. So when you're talking about this beginning stages
here where it's starting to break down, what does that
tell you when you're coming in as an investigator and
looking at things as you are studying that individual. Because
all the time we want to know, well, we always
(22:20):
want to know the motive why did this happen? But
when when did this happen? You know, I've talked about that.
You've got to tell me exactly when this person died, Joe.
I need to know was it before or after dinner?
Did they eat dinner at ten o'clock or eight o'clock? Yeah,
And sometimes those things can't be told by the contents
of your stomach. There's got to be more.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
Yeah, you're right, And if you're looking for me or
any of my colleagues, tell you, and I'm saying to
you in the universal sense, Dave, that when somebody actually died,
it's an empirical impossibility. And anybody tells you that the
can is line and so you know, the short term
and that's a micro a micro examination you know when
(23:04):
and we'll talk about this on another episode. Even in
that sense, we the best we can do is some
people say they can do it in three you know,
within a three hour window. Most of the time, I
think it's going to be about four to five if
you cover all your bases something.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
Yeah, if you know, O, there's things surrounding it, because
you know, we build that timeline, and as we're building
the timeline of activity, you can take all that into
consideration and narrow it down even further based on what
you're seeing in the physical realm of the of the
actual decomposition. So yeah, you're not just blindly finding a
body on the street, you know, right.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
Yeah, if you if you can, if you can kind
of well here's the word, integrate some of those circumstantial
finds right, Yeah, you've you've got a better shot. But broadly,
you know, when we're talking about decomposition, very broadly, that's
that's hard to do. It's it's very difficult to particularly
if you have a body that we listen, we use
(24:01):
terms like early decomposition, modern decomposition, and advanced decomposition, and
then you'll have skeletonization. So you've got kind of that
spectrum of four things there. When one of the things
that you have to consider is that there's actually two
processs of decomposition going on, and kind of the way
(24:22):
in my simple mind, the way I like to look
at it, you have autolytic changes in auto mean self, right,
So you have autolsis that goes on, which is kind
of body breaking down from within. And if you think
about it from the perspective of a body literally digesting itself,
that's autolysis. Okay, So you know everything that is contained
(24:45):
within life when you have cellular respiration on the systems
or firing ceases to be at that point in time,
so the body begins to kind of from an enzyme standpoint,
begins to kind of digest itself. Then you have future
faction that goes on and then you know, in very
broad terms, you begin to you know, think about changes
(25:09):
that are produced by you know, the action of bacteria
and micro organisms, and that can that can come like
in an external manifestation. And then you have, you know,
if you think about even more broadly, you you have
the introduction of animals or even insects that are attacking
the body externally, and then you know, and that's going
(25:30):
to promote decomposition. So there's you've got a lot to
kind of consider when you come across a body that's
bloated and rotting and kind of you know, coming to
part one of the things that's always fascinated me. And uh,
in my my students at JSU, I'll ask them this
(25:50):
question and uh and of course I'll get this resounding
sound you know when I give it to them. If
you've ever seen one of these uh steakhouse commercials where
they'll say we've got beautiful dry aged beef or we
do wet aging process, you know what they're talking about.
(26:13):
They're tenderizing those steaks that they have through the process
of decomposition, you know, and you can have dry age,
which if you go to if one of my goals
in life is to try to get a reservation at
Luger Steakhouse in Manhattan. It's supposed to be the best
steak in the world, because I think I know where
the best steak in the world is, and that's Charlie
(26:33):
Steakhouse in New Orleans. So I want to see what
Lugers is.
Speaker 3 (26:36):
But they have a we have just set a goal
for body bags.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
You and I. You've got to take me to Charlie's
in North I'll.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
Take you to Charlie's. Yeah, I will take you to
Charlie's and uh and one of the best best dining
experiences I've ever had. But with Charlie's, Charlie's uses I
think they used to use a rye agent method. And
the thing about it is with that they're talking about
they get this fine cut of beef, and we don't
(27:07):
like to think about this sort of thing. But you know,
aged beef is far better to eat than say, for instance,
if you take it right off the hoof, you have
to you have to let it, you have to let
it decompose. And that's that's and they don't use the
term decomposed. They say age. You know, it's it's much
more mellow. You know, it's like a it's like an
(27:28):
aged whiskey or wine of vintage wine. They try to
put it in those terms, but what it comes down
to is decomposing so that we can eat it, you know,
so that it's tender for us to eat.
Speaker 3 (27:39):
So we're really not talking about getting fresh meat. We're
talking about getting I mean, I'm kind of grossed up
by that, Joe.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
I didn't know that. I really did.
Speaker 3 (27:48):
I thought, if I go down here to where they've
got this, there's a bunch of cattle out here, and
they've got some pretty fat ones.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
Look good.
Speaker 3 (27:55):
Yeah, that if I was to get that one skin
that you take care of the hide, I want that
turn that into a steak, like to have that tomorrow
morning with my eggs. That's not going to be worth
eating compared to something that's.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
I'm not saying it's not. It's probably edible, but it's
not going to match up to Charlie's or from rumor
has it to Lugers in Manhattan because they have aged
that beef. Well. In terms of human decomposition, there's an
aging process that goes on and if it's not controlled,
which in the sense of you know, when people are
(28:26):
eating beef. That's a controlled environment. If a body is
left out, say in the wild or even in a house,
and the body is not refrigerated, the body is going
to do what bodies do. And look, this can be
stemmed through the process of what mortuary scientists do, and
that is infuse the body or profuse the body with
(28:49):
embalming fluid and they cease that process you know of,
or slow it down decompositional process. It kind of freezes
it for that moment. And with decomposition, though, you have
to get there early in order to stop it, because this,
(29:09):
I can tell you, with decomposition, once it starts, it's
like a barreling freight train. It's really hard to get
to handle on it. Okay. And so when you hear
people say, well, and this is non trauma related. You
have some elderly person that has been not found for
(29:31):
a week or two weeks in a home and the
mortuary says, well, you're gonna have to have closed casket.
People say, well, why would you have to have closed casket? Well,
it because the body has been decomposing for that period
of time, maybe under the most adverse conditions. You can
imagine where you know there's no there's no air con
(29:51):
that's that's operating. Maybe there's subject to I don't know,
flies and everything else that's in, and there's there's no
amount of restorate of work. I guess there is. You'd
have to pay a lot of money, but there's really
no amount of restorated work that you can go in
and you can patch this person up so that they're
presentable for an open casket. So the absence of an
(30:13):
open casket does not necessarily mean this is a trauma
related event. Many times it can be decompositional related.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
And okay, let me.
Speaker 3 (30:24):
Back to just on decomposition. When you're talking, you know,
twenty four to thirty six hours, right, you're going to
start seeing outward signs of the decomposition of the body, right, Yes, okay,
in that first twenty four hours, and in particular, I'm
thinking about in Idaho, in Moscow, Idaho, where the four
(30:45):
college students were murdered, and we believe based on the
information which I really want to talk to you about
that timeline, but what we understand is that sometime between
four and four thirty in the morning, all four of
these students were murdered by knife. But their bodies were
not found by law enforcement until eight hours later. All right,
(31:09):
is there going to be I mean, is there going
to be significant changes in the body during that eight
hour time period?
Speaker 1 (31:18):
Not in the broad sense that we're in a macro
sense that we're talking about here, real broadly, where you're
going to have bloating and all those things that are
commonly associated with decomposition, you're not going to have it
in there. However, I think that it's key that we
come back and address that the Idaho killings when we
discuss the micro the micro sense of decomposition and those
(31:41):
changes within that eleven hour framework you're not going to
see or eleven to twelve hour framework, you're not going
to see much happen. It's with how can I say
this with an external manifestation which can be appreciated with
the unaided eye, you know, where you're examining the body. However,
within the twenty four to thirty six hour and again,
(32:02):
these these brackets of time are very very broad. One
of the things that will happen and something that kind
of manifests itself if everybody that's listening to me will
take your right hand and place it above the level
of your pelvis on the right side of your app
to when that approximates the area where your appendix is.
(32:23):
No one can really explain it. But one of the
things that we see manifested in decomposition, like an external manifestation,
is that that area you'll get a focal area of
greenish discoloration that will occur there, and it truly is.
It turns kind of a green color, and that many
many times doesn't happen in every case, but many times
(32:44):
it'll be you know, that's generally about twenty four to
thirty six hours. Well, Morgan, why is that important? Well,
it's important because if I have that manifestation that is occurring,
that's a marker in time. Okay. So if I look
at the body and I have no other information, if
I'm just visually eyeball in the body and I see
I see you know, this greenish coloration on the abdomen,
(33:08):
I can say, Wow, this might be an indications person's
been down at least twenty four to thirty six hours.
And you roll that into the idea that maybe their
limbs are flaccid, and flaccid means flexible, okay, or bendable. Well,
that means that riger's already left the body.
Speaker 3 (33:25):
Okay, so I gotta know, yeah, because I, like many people,
don't know how quickly does rigormort to set in and
how quickly does it let go. Because we all know
of stories that we've told. As a matter of fact,
we had one not that long ago where two gentlemen
(33:48):
killed the third guy that they were having a three
way party with and went to get a tub at
home depot or wherever. And when they came back, the
guy was stiff and they had to break his legs
and beat him, you know, his body to make it
soft enough to get in the top. If they just waited,
how long would they have to wait for the body
to or twenty four to.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
Thirty six hours? Okay, twenty four to thirty thirty six hours,
and uh, it's going to remain fixed. And that's the
one thing I never can understand about people that that
desecreate bodies beyond what they've already been desecrated. Where they
get you know, axes and these sorts of things, and
you know, try to chop the legs off or whatever
(34:29):
if you wait. And again, obviously tom plays a factor
because anybody that brings death upon another person. They're not
wanting to hang around and be patient about it. The
body's become flashed again. They become what's termed malleable again,
so that you can bend them, you can contract them all.
You know, Roger Morris doesn't hang around forever and ever
eight minutes just not one of those things that occurs,
(34:51):
particularly in an unembalmed state. So you know, it will leave,
it dissipates over a period of time. But when you're
looking out over you know, kind of broadly over this
the spectrum of death with decomposition, you you look for
(35:14):
other signs as as you march down that timeline, Like
after you get beyond that that greenish discoloration that takes
place on the abdomen, you're talking about thirty six to
forty eight hours, Uh, the body will become or start
to distend, which means it'll you'll see the first signs
(35:37):
of bloating. You know, the abdomen begins to swell up well,
and the face will swell too. You know, you'll see
the face beginning to kind.
Speaker 3 (35:45):
Of if a person has had their appendix out, yeah,
does there still is there still a greenish type of color?
Speaker 2 (35:52):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (35:53):
Yeah, manifests down there, and I don't know why it is,
because that's kind of the uh at that end where
you have the vernis called the verniform appendix sound there.
Verniform is like I think it's the Latin word for
worm is actually what it translates into.
Speaker 2 (36:12):
It.
Speaker 1 (36:12):
It will still manifest down that area even you know,
if an individual is absent their appendix and it's down
in that that area, I don't know if it because
it's on the opposite end of the large vowel from
where you know, the rectum is okay, so it's kind
of looped all the way around there, and you know
that's where the food that's being digested in the you know,
(36:36):
in the small intestine dumps into that part of the intestine,
the lower right side if you're talking about the right
side of the versus body, and then it traverses from
the uscending large vowel to the where it crosses over
(36:56):
into the descending bowel and eventually it is eliminated for
in the body. I don't know if that plays a
role into it, but you know, you couple that and
you go to another stage where you've got this kind
of slight bloating that's going on and with and particularly
the facial notice it. You'll get kind of the face,
we'll have a swollen appearance, and you'll also see the
(37:18):
first signs of something. Here's another term they use in
in butchery with beef. It doesn't mean the same thing,
but you'll we use this term called marbling. And marbling
if you imagine if you've got a spider web that
would normally be I don't know, spider webs are gray white.
(37:39):
If you imagine a black spider web superimposed upon a
body and it's got these kind of weird lines that
run all over the place. It's it's black, dark, dark black. Well,
that's like blood that is decomposing in the vessels and
it's showing through the face. So you'll see it first
(38:01):
manifest kind of around the jowls and the cheeks and
that sort of thing the neck, and that'll extend out
as time goes by, so you'll have these kind of
curve linear lines you know, that run over, you know,
all over the body. And that's actually what we refer
to as marveling. But again, Dave, that brings us back
to this benchmarking of time. That's you know, you're going
to talk about top end. That's that's going to take
(38:23):
about forty eight hours, you know, with an unattended body
that's found ideally in a protected environment, you know, like
in a house where you know, you don't have any
kind of postmortem feasting that's going on with animals or
things like that. And again, the more of these little
markers that we can get as death investigators, it allows us,
(38:49):
through science and the natural biological process, to tell the
story of the dead. I know a lot of people
(39:09):
are fans of dried fruit that are listening out there.
I see it everywhere I go, you know, in various
grocery stores and this sort of thing. I've never really
developed a taste for it. It's kind of like when
I was a kid. I don't know about you, Dave,
but when I was a kid, I was made to
(39:29):
eat beef liver. I can't do it anymore. And the
reason I can't do it anymore is that beef liver
looks just like human liver to me, you know, and
not participate in all those autopsies for all those years.
But with the dried fruit, one of the things I
think about when I see it is a term that
we refer to is desication because I call it desiccated.
(39:49):
You know, it's dried, you know, and desiccation or the
drying of limbs and particularly our penages like our feet,
your toes, feet, fingers in your hands. The more peripheral
you are to that kind of center core in a body,
the higher the probability is that area is going to
dry out. And that's what desiccation is. So if you're
(40:12):
if you you know, you couple that with the the
bloating that you see, and that's the next step that
you move on to is going to be manifested. The
idea that the extremities and I'm talking about it, if
you'll just touch your fingertips or tips of your toes
right now, those areas out of every other location in
the body will become dry first. And so the fingers,
(40:34):
the fingers actually take on an appearance like you know,
when you're little and your mom tells you, you know,
let me look at your hands, how long you've been
in the pool. You get this kind of shriveled appearance here.
That's basically the way it looks. The only difference is
is that with the tips of fingers and decomposition and
it happens to the nose as well. It'll turn, it'll
(40:57):
turn kind of a black discoloration and it's dried out.
There's no more moisture, you know, left in that environment.
And so if we benchmark that time, you know, you're
talking about probably about forty eight to sixty hours down
range after death. At that point in time when you're
(41:17):
you know, you're kind of pacing yourself through the scene.
That's why it's important at a scene that you you
don't want to miss anything, but at the scene, particularly
for the purposes of contextualizing things, it's important to be
able to see to see it for what it is,
you know, at the scene, and be able to document
that you observe that there, you know, before you remove
(41:39):
the body at you know, at the scene and take
take the body to the corner's office of the medical
examiner's office where it's going to be examined.
Speaker 3 (41:46):
You mentioned about the nose, and I'm thinking it is
Michael Jackson. Yeah, I had so many surgeries on his nose.
He give had a prosthetic end to his nose.
Speaker 1 (41:53):
Yeah. Can I tell you, Uh, there are a couple
of times, a couple of images I have seen of
him over the years where it actually made my mind
drift back to people that I when I examine their bodies,
their nose had that same appearance. It's kind of dried,
and it gives it a, I don't know how to
say it, a very diminutive appearance, as it's not robust
(42:15):
and full like you see and lie fingers in particular,
fingers are really creepy on the dead because when they're shrivelled,
they're shriveled at the ends. They almost have like a
claw like manifestation. What's really interesting, as fingers shrivelled and
toast rivel, the abdomen actually begins to bloat. So you've
got this kind of juxtaposition. And with the bloating of
(42:38):
the abdomen you're talking, you know, seventy two hours, that
begins to happen. So the body is swelling, and what's
happening is all this gas is building up in the body,
and as it builds up, one of the foulus substances
known to man begins to exude from the body, and
it generally will any orifice in the body it'll come through,
and you see it a lot in the nose, the mouth,
(43:01):
and it's it's called purging. So you've got this cellular
substance where the cells are breaking down and it's a
combination of blood and other elements and it creates this flow.
And I think i'd shown this image to you, Dave,
of this fellow that city in a chair. Uh, and
(43:21):
he's swollen bloated. And you know that guy, Dave in life,
he only weighed about one hundred and sixty pounds.
Speaker 2 (43:28):
Oh my yeah, but punds man that'd been shot in
the chest.
Speaker 1 (43:32):
I know. And all of the blood that you see
on his chest. Everything that you see on his chest
is not blood. Well it's blood in it, that's that's
actually perge fluid or detail fluid. Yeah, and it's pouring,
it's coming out of his nose, in his mouth.
Speaker 3 (43:45):
You're talking about the picture of the guy sitting in
the chair, like yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, wow. Okay,
Just so y'all know, And I'm not going to include
this on I'm not going to show you guys this
picture that picture for that, but it's in this presentation.
And I opened the page and Joe explains these things
to me ahead of time. It's not going to make
me look like a total dummy. And I opened that
picture and I'm not kidding. I thought the guy had
(44:07):
been shot because and that he was discovered a day
or two later. I didn't realize that this was a
fairly small guy and died of natural causes.
Speaker 1 (44:15):
I've got a fascinating story that goes along with that,
because there was a very young police officer that called
my office the day that he was the first person
to show up. It was a welfare check they'd gone
out on and the guy lived alone. He had been
divorced for a while, and he was I think he
was like in his late fifties and he was working.
(44:36):
You seeing the image, you're still wearing t shirt with
jeans and work boots. And he sat in his chair
and had a heart attack and died. Well, the young cop.
And I'm not judging this guy because I would have
thought the same thing. He called me from a landline
at that time. This was many years ago, and said, yeah,
we need you out here immediately. I think we've got
a guy that has been beaten to death. And he
(44:59):
even said at that time someone may have used a
hatchet on him or an axe. And when you see this,
it's so grotesque. And over the top. That's what you're thinking.
You know, your mind automatically goes to that, because where
could all this the staining come from. And it's even
contrasted by the fact that the guy's wearing a white
T shirt. Well, the guy has no trauma to his body.
That's all decomp fluid that it's It is one of
(45:23):
the most disgusting substances known to man. And once it
makes contact with anything you're wearing, your clothing or anything
like that, go ahead and start the bonfire and burn
those clothes because you'll never they're unusable after that point.
I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body
Host
Nancy Grace
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