July 21, 2025 • 43 mins
It's been months since Attorney General Pam Bondi made a first release of information related to Jeffrey Epstein's death, promise to release more. It hasn't happened sparking speculations of a cover-up.
Today Mark Epstein, Jeffrey Epstein's brother, joins Crime Stories. He says he has no reason to believe his brother took his own life, instead alleges he was murdered.
Metadata research shows the ‘raw’ Jeffrey Epstein prison video, the night he is found dead, has three missing minutes.
Joining Nancy Grace today,
- Mark Epstein - Brother of Jeffrey Epstein
- Spencer Kuvin - Chief Legal Officer of GOLDLAW, represented 9 victims of Epstein
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Message to Bondie, Pam Bondie, the US Attorney General release
the files, the Jeffrey Epstein files in case you need clarification. Bondie,
you promised, now deliver. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.
(00:27):
I want to thank you for being with us. Joining
us tonight is a very special guest, Mark Epstein. This
is the biological brother of Jeffrey Epstein, now dead.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Mister Epstein, thank you for being with us.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
You're welcome, Mark, if I may call you that. Sure,
you have been disturbed from day one about the claim
your brother, Jeffrey Epstein committed suicide. You say that did
not happen.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
Why?
Speaker 3 (01:04):
Well, first of all, it was sort of like almost
day two. What happened. When I first heard that Jeffrey
was found dead from the parent suicide. I heard it
on CNN. The government didn't notify me as they claimed.
I heard it on CNN, and at first I had
no reason to doubt that, because you know, I knew
he was in jail, he was potentially facing a very
(01:24):
long term. I knew he wouldn't want to live like that.
He didn't have any children to worry about. Our parents
are gone, and he wouldn't have to worry about me,
So there was no reason to doubt that. But then
the next day, the next morning, I had to I
had to identify his body because I'm the next of kin.
And they did the autopsy, and so far, you know
(01:46):
the same thing. I just assumed it was a suicide.
But then the city pathologist who did thisice of the
autopsy with Michael Bottom, there's forensic pathologists on my behalf
witnessing this. They both came out of the atop the
room and they said they couldn't call it a suicide
because it looked too much like a homicide. Now that
(02:06):
never appears in any government report and no one speaking
about that. The two qualified forensic pathologists who did the
autopsy could not call it a suicide because it looked
too much like a homicide. And then a few days later,
Barbara Samson, who was the chief medical examiner, she declares
(02:27):
it was a suicide. And let's be clear, Barbara Sampson
never saw the body. She wasn't at the autopsy, and
after the autopsy was over that day, we blamed the body,
so she never saw it. Just like psh Ptel made
that statement that you know because he's a prosecutor and
everything else. He said, you know a suicide when you
(02:49):
see it. I mean he said that in that congressional
or I sent it here in young and the oath
I would take, and he said, you know his suicide
when you see it. The first questions that came to
me we were how many suicides is he's seen? Okay?
And also he never saw the body, He never saw
the scene. I don't think he was at the scene
of the crime that day, or I don't know if
(03:10):
he was day afterwards, but that wouldn't matter. Everything seems
to be covering up the fact that the mythologist who
did the autopsy wouldn't call it a suicide. Other people
are called with the suicide, ignoring these very qualified professionals.
Doctor Biden has done about five hundred autopsies on prison debts,
(03:31):
and I'm not sure how many. Doctor Roman did, certainly
more than Cashptell.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
You know, with us, everyone is Mark Epstein. This is
Jeffrey Epstein's brother, who doesn't have a dog in the fight,
no skin in the game to opine as to whether
Epstein committed suicide or not. But what he's saying is very,
(03:55):
very disturbing. Day one, Mark Epstein, I was concerned about
the markings.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
And I've prosecuted and investigated.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Many many homicides more than I can count, and have
investigated suicides as well to determine if they were homicides.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
And the first thing that jumped out.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
At me was the marking on your brother's neck, which
was a straight across horizontal ligature mark.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
And when someone hangs themselves.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
Even from the side of a bed, think about Robin Williams,
who committed suicide by use of a ligature from a
door knob. Okay, this is not a traditional hanging, for instance,
from an elevated point. Even from that type of suicide
(04:45):
from a bed, you would see a you or a
smiley marking on the neck.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
This was a.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Straight horizontal ligature mark, indicative of someone wrangling him with
a ligature from behind. It's a subtle but important distinction
which I will discuss momentarily with a forensic expert. Let
me understand, Mark Epstein, you just stated that you learned
(05:16):
about the suicide allegation from TV.
Speaker 3 (05:19):
Yeah. I was actually in Norfolk, Virginia, having breakfast at
a restaurant and the television was on don't tune to CNN,
and I saw my brother's picture up here and they
said that he was found dead from an apparent suicide.
That's how I learned about this. I mean the Justice
Department report. They said they notified me. They did not.
There's a lot of errors in the Justice Department report.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
Why would they have lied about that.
Speaker 3 (05:44):
They're trying to make it look like a suicide.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
Why Why do you believe the government. And I'm not
one for conspiracies, Mark at all. Why because I don't
think people can keep their yap shut long enough to
maintain a conspiracy, That's why.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
But in this.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
Case, the refusal to release the files that were promised
to us months ago, promise after promise after promise, the
confusion around suicide, the homicide, the edited video, and again
we're hearing from d C, well there's nothing in the files.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Well, if there's nothing in the files, release the files.
We have got I.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Think now four suicides connected to your brother's case. Four
four suicides Jeffrey Virginia Giffrey, your brother, his French counterpart,
according to law enforcement, and two other alleged victims. Now
(06:49):
five people commit suicide. Can that possibly be a coincidence,
Mark Epstein.
Speaker 3 (06:58):
There's also other things that they used a question like
also a few days after the death, Bill Barr, an
attorney general, you know, came out publicly and stated that
he saw the video and he saw that nobody went
in or out of the tier, and that convinced him
it was a suicide. And when I heard that, I
thought this is ridiculous. I thought, why is the Attorney
(07:18):
general himself watching this whole night long video, you know,
putting he up somebody in his office watch it and say, hey, Bill,
nobody went in or out. That was number one and
number two to assume that he was it was a
suicide because nobody went in or out when there were
twelve other prisoners on that tier, I would not have
(07:38):
to go in or out of that door if they
were going to kill somebody on the tier. And I
was told that shell doors were left unlocked that night.
And I was also told by somebody who was familiar
with the prison that they weren't surprised to hear that.
So and also to think that somebody could get to
Jeffrey's tier, go inside, you know, kill somebody, and then
(08:00):
leave completely undetected, it's just like a stupid statement that
you know, that's not what you're based on. We can't
find out who the other prisoners on that tier were,
when did they get there, and where are they now.
There's been no interviews of all the prisoners on the tier,
which would normally be done in a situation like that.
There's no record of that. So when I heard Bill
(08:24):
bar say that, and then you know, the forensic pathologist
said they couldn't call it a suicide because it looked
too much like a homicide. I mean, if you just
looked at the facts of this and forget it was
Jeffrey Epstein and forget the case against them for a minute,
you know, this doesn't look like the suicide, you would
investigate this as a homicide. And then also the night
(08:45):
when they locked up. But we have there as the
record of you know, we know about the two gods
that got in trouble, you know, because they weren't doing
the rounds, you know, Toba Noel and Michael Thomas. No
Michael Thomas came on shift in the middle of the night,
so he wasn't there, and they locked up the tear
and there's never any there's never ever just one god.
There on reports, there's a mention of an unnamed god
(09:07):
number one and an unnamed god number two. There are
questions who are they and why are they unnamed? Are
they actual prison guards? Could they have been put there to,
you know, to kill somebody and then they disappeared into
ether without any record of who they are. There's all
these unanswered questions that in a normal wear honest face,
(09:28):
even if it was a suicide, these questions would not
be kept secret. There's too much, too much mystery about it.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
As a matter of fact, Mark Epstein, if this were
any case but your brothers, everything would be very, very
transparent with a simple for you Freedom of Information Act request.
Because Epstein's case is over, he's dead, it is no
longer an ongoing investigation as it relates to him. So
(09:55):
if that's true, why haven't all of these questions and answered?
And why haven't these files been released? I've handled literally
so many cases, thousands of cases, I can't count them.
And when a case is over, When a case is over,
say the Purp dies or the appeals are exhausted, the
(10:16):
files are released. The Purp's dead, Epstein is dead, these
files should be released. You know you mentioned FBI director
Cash Ptel. Did you state Mark Epstein that Patel stated,
you know, I know a suicide when I see one.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
Yeah, he said that it's a public record. He said
that in the of them in hearing. He listed his
credentials as a prosecute.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
He's not a medical doctor, he's a lawyer.
Speaker 3 (10:41):
Well, that's what I said before I said he's not
a forensic pathologist. He doesn't have a medical degree. I
even joked, I said, maybe he has a boy Scout
merit page in first aid. What is he basing his
expertise on. That's a question. Also, I understand something when
the government quickly calls this suicide, but that sort of
kills any investigation because if it's a suicide, there's usually
(11:02):
there's two questions on the suicide. One how did they
do it? And two? Why? You know? And how do
they do it? Is usually simple, I say, if you
find somebody spat it on the sidewalk where they jumped
off of a building, if they're laying in a pool
of blood with a gun on the floor, well they
shot themselves. You know, it's a pretty simple answer of
how somebody committed suicide. The why doesn't matter because you know,
(11:26):
in this case he's dead, but it stops the investigation.
There's no reason to investigate any further. That's why they.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
Call it, of course, because in jurisdictions, for a suicide
is a crime, the purp is the dead person.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
It's very obvious.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
So when something is named a suicide, when it's determined
to be a suicide, that is all investigation. There's nothing
to investigate if it's a suicide, homicide altogether different. In
addition to Patel, now the theory is emerging Mark Epstein
that your brother, Jeffrey Epstein, was not just a multimillionaire,
(12:08):
that he was actually a US and Israeli intelligence service spy,
and that that is why the files are not being
released because there is sensitive information in the files as
it relates to US security. What do you make of
(12:32):
the claim that your brother was, in a fact an
intelligence agent.
Speaker 3 (12:37):
Well, I've heard this for years already. This is that
the first time that's been raised. I have no idea
to tell me what he was doing. So, and I
said before, I don't want to speculate on anything, Because
I start speculating, I lose credibility. I like to stick
to facts. So I have no idea about what Jeffrey
was doing, if for anything, but I do believe he
(12:59):
was built to quiet for the information he had.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
What information?
Speaker 3 (13:03):
Yeah, well, I've said publicly before in the in the
twenty sixteen election, he told me that he he didn't
tell me what he knew, but if he said if
he knew what he if he said what he knew
about the candidates trumping won, they'd have to cancel the election.
So he obviously had some dirt on on Donald, you know.
So he said if he said what he knew, they'd
have to cancel the election. That's what he told me.
(13:25):
You can make out of that whatever you want, But
that's a quovoute. Oh you could take You could take
that wherever you want.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
What disturbs you the most?
Speaker 2 (13:35):
Mark Epstein, let's get off the allegations that your brother
was a spy all that, although that has now reared
its ugly head as an excuse why these files are
not being released. We've all heard of redaction. I've had
to redact many, many documents before they are released. And
(13:56):
you are to redact or mark out with a white
man mark. That's what I'm talking about. Redact only sensitive portions.
Why can't the files be released with any intelligence related information?
Speaker 1 (14:09):
If there is any redacted?
Speaker 2 (14:11):
What about the other thousands and thousands and thousands of pages?
Speaker 3 (14:16):
Mark, Well, as far as I'm concerned, they should release
everything they can. I have no qualms with that, you know.
And then the question also becomes, you know, if Bill
Bond made the statement, you know, to quash the investigation.
You know that Jeff it was a suicide, which, like
you said, end's investigations and Krispateell's claiming it's a suicide
without any expertise, without even he never saw the body either,
(14:38):
you know, and it's quickly deemed the suicide. You know,
who if he was killed, who ordered the hit? So
to speak? Who are these people covering up for? That
should be the question that we're looking at if it was,
because most people who look at all the facts believe
it was a homicide. You know, people see a little
bit here, a little bit there. You know, we get
(15:00):
these fifteen minutes to talk on a podcast or something.
You have to look at all the facts. That will
take you quite a lot of time. We have mastered
a lot of information and everyone who has seen the
bulk of it. Nobody thinks it's a suicide, and so
who is being protected? That's the question.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, we are speaking to Mark Epstein.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
This is Jeffrey Epstein's brother.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
And the issue is not whether we like or hate,
love or hate Jeffrey Epstein. We don't have to condone
what he was accused of doing. Of course we don't.
The issue is why are these files not being released?
Speaker 1 (15:51):
Now?
Speaker 2 (15:51):
We've been told from the highest source that there is
no quote client list. There may not be a client
list in the way that you imagine you open a
little black book and you go through it alphabetically and
you find names and phone numbers and emails and addresses.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
That may not exist.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
But those files could contain indications and names, descriptions of events, flights,
and so much more to impugne the integrity of many,
many highly placed individuals, multimillionaires, celebrities. We don't know. Why
(16:31):
don't we know? Because the files have not been released.
And now with claims that the video from the night
of the death, as Mark calls it, the murder, has
been doctored, it was released as raw footage. It is
anything but raw.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
According to expert something.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
You know, I don't think somebody got into the tier
to kill them and then left, So the video is
not going to show that. But what I want to see,
which also we can't get, is the video of the
infirmary area of the prison because when Jeffrey was found
dead after they tried to work on him, which I
don't know why, because the autopsy showed he was dead
(17:15):
for at least two hours when he was found at least,
most likely a lot more and there's other reasons for that,
but at least two hours. So he was taken to
the infirmary. When the fire Department EMP people got to
the jail from the nine one one call, Jeff's body
was already in the infirmary. So I'd like to see
the video footage, you know, all the cameras from the pision,
(17:39):
so where he was, through the infirmary and in the
infirmary itself, because this camera's all over that place. We
can't get any additional video footage because this would show
the condition that Jeff's body was in, how it was handled,
and then there's a picture of them wheeling him out
of the vision. They go to the hospitals on a
gurney and he's got a brace on, and he's in
(18:01):
debated and the DMT guys are squeezing in the air
balloon to try to get into his lungs. Now, these
are professional medical people. It's just's been dead for two hours,
So sort of why the charade of trying to make
it look like he was potentially revivable? I mean, they wasn't.
You know the mark in his neck that you saw
in a photograph, it stayed in his neck. That's the
(18:23):
indication that he was dead for at least two hours,
you know, So why And then I have a photograph
of him from the hospital where he's actually wearing a
hospital gown. You know, he's dead on the gurney with
a hospital gown on. Someone put his arms through the
sleeves and you know it kind of tie in the back.
But why did they dress this dead body in a
hospital gown? Normally dead bodies are either in body bags
(18:44):
are covered by a sheet. So why the charade? Also,
what I was told by people on the scene is
that there was somebody there with a handheld video camera
in the prison infirmary and in the hospital. Where's the
footage from that handheld video camera, stuff that wouldn't like,
as you said, would normally be open and available in
(19:05):
a regular case and a regular suicide, but nothing was
being released.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
Mark.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
I've got to tell you something, Mark, I have investigated
and prosecuted and covered literally thousands of homicides of deaths.
I've never seen a dead body put into a hospital gown. Never,
(19:31):
not once. That's very disturbing. I had not heard that
detail until you just told me that. So you have
a video of your brother wearing a hospital gown.
Speaker 3 (19:41):
Not a video photograph. That's unmistakable. It's Jeffrey in the
hospital gown on the journey in the hospital. Yeah. And
when I when I first when I first saw that,
I got a question that somebody who was on the seat,
I said, what was Jeffrey wearing when he was found?
I thought, well, if he was wearing a hospital gown
when he was found, it makes sense. But turns take no,
he wasn't wearing hospital gown. He was wearing the pre's
(20:01):
an orange shorts and shirt when he was found. So
someone went through the trouble of dressing this dead body
in a hospital. Gain.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
Why do you believe that there is a cover up happening?
Speaker 1 (20:14):
Right now.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
I already know you believe he was murdered. You don't
refer to it as a suicide or a death. You
refer to Jeffrey Epstein's murder your brother. Why do you
believe there's a cover up now, Mark Epstein, Well.
Speaker 3 (20:27):
It's always been covered up. It never came out and
said it was, you know, anything other than a suicide,
even though the actual pathologists who did the autopsy, the
only two, both claimed that they couldn't quote it a
suicide because it looked too much like a homicide.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
Mark, according to reports, you actually laughed at the handling
of the so called Epstein files.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
Why, well, just again, it's just so blatantly wrong. It's
just wrong the way this is being handled. And the
kids believe as I do, that this is a cover up.
It's sort of like, you know, every time I said before,
every time they do something, they say something, it just
makes it puts their foot further down their throats. They're
(21:10):
digging a deeper hole for themselves because nobody's believing anymore.
But they're saying even you know, the supporters on the
you know, it's not a part of initial for me,
you know, but the President's supporters that are getting really
annoyed and breaking away because they don't like they don't
like being liked.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
I'm with you on that mark. I'm not a Democrat
and I'm not a Republican. I really don't care. I
think they all lie and I have to hold my
nose when I vote. That said, I don't have a
political dog in the fight, but I know we were
promised that these files would be released. We were told
over and over and over, and now they're not. It
(21:49):
stinks to high Heaven the case is over. Why are
the files being withheld? You stated that you laughed. What
is amusing about it is that your Are you laughing
out of irony?
Speaker 1 (22:05):
What makes you laugh about this situation?
Speaker 3 (22:08):
Well? Well, the thing I really think that was the
main thing was Cash Purtell's line, I which is, how
stupid is that him to claim, you know, was suicide
when you see when when he didn't see this suicide,
He didn't see Jeff's body or anything about it. This
was almost six years ago and he's now claiming, you know,
with suicide when you see it. I mean, how did
he expect anyone to believe him give him any credibility
(22:30):
on a statement like that to mean it was funny.
It was just it was so ridiculous.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
Maybe I would laugh if I weren't so disturbed as
a crime victim myself that we're not getting the answers
that we were promised. Do you believe Elaine Maxwell knows anything?
Speaker 3 (22:45):
She was around a lot. You know, I have nothing
the personally in this in the dog fight with her,
but yeah, she probably knows a bunch. She was around
for a lot of this stuff. That was the area
when she and Jeffrey were close.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
Mark Epstein joining us Jeffrey Epstein's brother. He is convinced
Epstein did not die by his own hand and has
brought up multiple inconsistencies with what we are being told
is true.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
Final thought, Mark.
Speaker 3 (23:15):
It's not only me that's convinced. It's everybody who looks
at all the information we've mayreed so far, and there's
more coming in. We're finding new information that will be out.
But again, I don't want to speculate, and I don't
want to put information out that I don't know for sure.
But there's more stuff coming out, and it's not just me,
it's not just my fight. A lot of people, most
(23:37):
people who've seen it's not all the people who've seen
all the information we have no but out of that group,
nobody believes it was a suicide.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
Well, you know, Mark, you just says something else extremely
interesting to me and significant. It's not just about you.
It's not just about your brother, Jeffrey Epstein. It's about
what's right and what's wrong, and broken promises and the
fact that our whole system is based on seeking the truth,
(24:05):
regardless of what that truth may be. Maybe we'll get
the files and there'll be nothing in there. Maybe it
will be this morning I had oatmeal, then I took
a job in Central Park. I don't know. But the
fact that we're not getting them, the fact that we're
being told there's nothing in the files, well, if that's true,
then release them.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
This is no way to run an investigation.
Speaker 3 (24:31):
In other part is that every American citizen should be
concerned that here you have an American citizen who was
killed in in prison under federal protection. Yeah, that should
that should diserve everybody if that could happen. Well, so
what's part of the story is that in a few
days after the death, they were trying to have to
(24:52):
appeal the bail decision. Jeffrey to see if he can
get bail, and he was putting up it would have
been the largest bail in US Street. And the hearing
was coming up for that, so you know, again I
wasn't involved on the day to day thing, and I
found out about that afterwards that the hearing was soon
to come. And I know Jeffrey. I would say, well,
(25:12):
you know, if he was going to commit suicide, he
would wait to see if he got bailed, because if
he got bailed, he'd be out of jail. He'd be
living in his house with an ankle monitor on and
armed guards to make sure he didn't go anywhere, and cameras,
you know, but he wouldn't be in jail. So why
would you kill yourself before that bail hearing. I could
(25:32):
see if he had the bail hearing and it was denied,
and then he didn't want to spend another jail year
in jail awaiting trial. Okay, another's not your reasons to
take yourself out. But that hearing didn't come up yet,
it was soon to happen, So why would he kill
himself before the hearing for bail? Doesn't make sense, anybody.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
No, it doesn't.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
It doesn't makes his mister Epstein, we wait as God
willing justice unfolds.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
Goodbye, Miss Epstein.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
Joining us now is a very special guest, Spencer Couven,
chief legal Officer Gold Law, who has represented nine Epstein victims,
nine nine now.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
Prosecuted a lot of cases.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
And when I would have three or four victims, that
would be like an avalanche. You, a single lawyer, have
represented nine, which tells me that there are many, many
more out there, probably that we don't even know about.
It's concerning to me, mister con First of all, thank
(26:40):
you for being with us.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
That there are five.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
Suicides, five alleged suicides connected to this case. Does somebody
in this universe want me to believe that five people
connected to this case all committed suicide? And let's see,
(27:04):
there's Epstein, there's Virginia'sjufray, There's a French Epstein who was
a pimp of little girls. There was Carolin Angiano, and
there was leip sky Patrick. That's five people, three of
those Epstein victims, three dead. One is Epstein and the
(27:24):
other is his French counterpart. That they would trade little girls.
As you're just twelve years.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
Old, he ends up dead.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
Wow, are any of your clients worried about how people
connected to this case are dropping dead light flies.
Speaker 4 (27:39):
I got to tell you, Nancy, you know a couple
of issues. First of all, the moment he was re
arrested in New York, when his plane landed, or New
Jersey at that moment, I did an interview shortly thereafter,
advising the general public he was never making it out alive,
and you know, prophetically he didn't. I was one of
(27:59):
the first said he wouldn't make it out alive, and frankly,
I continue to be a disbeliever in the story that's
been populated by the FEDS and the Department of Justice.
There are just way too many connections here. I can
also tell you exclusively because I don't know that I've
ever talked about this before, but shortly after he passed
in jail, I received a call from one of the
(28:21):
guards at the facility who had retired. This is somebody
that wasn't working there at the time, but was able
to speak with me on authority because he had worked
there and said, there is no way that someone within
that type of a facility could have the opportunity to
commit suicide. This is the most secure, one of the
(28:41):
most secure prisons we have in the United States. It
is a prison within a prison within a prison. It
is three levels of high security, constantly monitored. And it
was unbelievable to him that somebody in there would potentially
be able to commit suicide. And then look at the photographs.
This is a gentleman that was on suicide watch just
a few weeks prior, and yet they give him sheets,
(29:04):
and they give him pill bottles, and they give him wires.
In the photographs you can see all of the things
that they gave him that potentially they could then use
later to say, oh, well, look at all this stuff
he used to commit suicide. It's just absolutely unbelievable. It's
unbelievable to me, it's unbelievable to the victims I represent.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
Well, Spencer hold on moment, I want to follow up
before I lose the thought. Spencer Coban joining US Chief
Legal Officer gold to Law, who has represented nine and
counting Epstein victims.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
I've been in a lot of prisons and a.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
Lot of jails, a lot more than I can even
remember since I started prosecuting violent crimes in nineteen eighty seven.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
That said Spencer, You're right.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
Never in any jail, any penitentiary that I have, any
youth facility, a GV jail that I've ever seen, did
a cell have as much strewn around as the Epstein
jail cell. When I saw that, I'm like, that's impossible.
Inmates are not allowed all of those sheets, blankets, acute trema.
(30:18):
That doesn't happen. Why Because it is a homicide suicide risk.
Those sheets can be torn into strips and used to.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Commit a homicide. You do not see that in a facility.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
And the moment I saw that, Spencer, I knew it
was wrong.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
What we're showing right now that would never happen.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
Anybody in the justice system knows this is no in oh, Spencer.
Speaker 4 (30:46):
This is top level security prison, right, this is where
we hold terrorists and high level prisoners. You're absolutely right, Nancy,
there is no way. And I've been inside jails as
well in the work that I do on behalf of victims,
interviewing people, and this is just impossible. It was impossible
to believe when I saw it. It was impossible to
(31:06):
believe on behalf of my clients. I couldn't believe it
at the time, and my clients couldn't believe it either.
You know, it's just atrocious, and I want to bring
you back. You know, I've been representing victims going back
to the original prosecution of this case in Palm Beach.
I represented victim number one, that was a fourteen year
old girl that I helped walk through the criminal justice
(31:29):
and then subsequently the civil justice system, which started the
landfall of future victims of Jeffrey Epstein. And you said
before how many. I can tell you that in my
contacts with the FBI during those investigations, there were literally
hundreds of victims, hundreds of young girls who had been
trafficked by Epstein and Maxwell. They were out there. And
(31:52):
then there were more than hundreds that actually submitted claims
when the funds were seized over in the Virgin Islands
after his arrest. So the victims are numerous, The stories
are voluminous. They involve high profile individuals in the business community,
high profile politicians, royalty, you name it. Jeffrey Epstein had
(32:14):
the goods on all of them, and there were a
lot of people. I have no doubt that we're afraid
of what you had to say.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
Crime stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
I'm curious, Spencer Couven and I recall when you said this,
when Jeffrey Epstein touched down at the private airstrip at
Titterborough and he was arrested. You said, he'll never make
it out of jail, He'll never come out alive.
Speaker 1 (32:52):
He'll be killed. You called it. How did you know
that was going to happen?
Speaker 2 (32:58):
I know you're not clairvoyant, so you had to deduce
from the facts that he would be killed behind bars,
and you were right.
Speaker 4 (33:06):
I got to tell you based on the information not
only that I knew at the time that I could disclose,
but based on the information that I still to this
day unfortunately can't disclose based on attorney client privilege and
the people that were involved in some of these trading
for sexual favors over the years. There was just no way.
These people were at too high of a level, They
(33:28):
were too influential, and someone like Epstein with that type
of information I just knew, was never going to make
it out of that system alive. It just wasn't going
to happen.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
We are showing you video now of the prison cell in.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
Which Epstein died. His brother tells me.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
He refuses to call a suicide because he's convinced it's
a homicide. And again, he's got no skin in the game,
no dog in the fight. It doesn't affect the brother
one way or the other, whether it's a suicide or
a homicide.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
He's not getting any money out of it. He's not
doing a book.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
Deal as far as I know, he's just saying this
is no suicide. If you look at that video, Spencer,
it shows the elevator, which is the only way in
and out, although I'm sure they've got to have an
emergency exit stairs, right. But that said, I think that
may be pictured in the video as well, near the
(34:24):
there you go by the elevator. That said, that doesn't
exclude or preclude his neighbors who had been moved in
and out of the sale block, who was there that night. Amazingly,
those names have not been released. What do you make
of it, Spencer?
Speaker 4 (34:42):
You know, there are a number of things. And I
heard your interview with his brother shortly before, and he
makes an excellent point with respect to the video. We
don't see the video of him in the infirmary. In
the infirmary, we need to see that video to see
what learns he had as he came out of hisself.
But more importantly, who was working on that block that night.
We need to see the interviews, We need to see
(35:03):
the names of the people that are involved, and we
need to see all of that video, not just the
snippets they've decided to show to us. And we all
know in this day and age, video can easily be edited.
If you watch that video and the timecode and the video,
and I've watched it numerous times now, there are sections
of that where the timecode jumps and it is weird.
(35:25):
It's strange. I don't know what to make of it.
But if this is the raw video, I would be surprised.
I think they've processed this video through something and that
they've probably cut things out, but I can't be sure
of that. But at the end of the day, release
the names of the people that were on that block
and let us know who was there, so that the
public can talk to them and interview them like you're
doing here today with me, and find out what they know.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
Spencer, I think we should demand more than that. I
don't want just a list of names prepared by the government.
I don't believe that anymore. And I'm certainly not a
conspiracy theorist at all. Again, I don't think people can
keep their yap shut long enough to maintain a conspiracy.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
But unlike any other case that has been closed with
this case is closed with the death of Epstein.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
This is subject to for your Freedom of Information Act.
There is no reason for these files not to be released.
We were promised to release. It didn't happen. Why we're
being told, oh, there's nothing there. Well, if there's nothing there,
then why not release the files. I think we need
the entire set of files, not a list that somebody
(36:34):
in DJ makes up pursue it to what their boss
tells them to do.
Speaker 1 (36:38):
I don't believe that anymore. You also say that.
Speaker 2 (36:43):
You're convinced one hundred percent sure that everything has not
been released, and you are falling back on thousands of
hours of surveillance video from Epstein's homes that remain sealed,
so you know for a fact everything has not been released.
Speaker 4 (37:02):
It is absolutely certain that everything hasn't been released. And
the RUS with respect to release the grand jury testimony, Again,
that is only a very small snippet of information. We're
talking thousands of hours of videotape surveillance in home camera
videos that were taken from the Manhattan mansion, the Saint Thomas,
(37:24):
Virgin Island mansion, and the Palm Beach mansion that I
know exists because I was one of the only attorneys
early on in the case to actually walk through Epstein's
Palm Beach mansion after the incident and during our case,
and I saw firsthand places where he had put the
video cameras in the rooms inside of his home, in
(37:44):
the corner of those rooms, including in bedrooms, his massage room,
and other places in the home. I know it exists.
The FBI knows it exists, and I guarantee that the
Department of Justice has done summaries of the videotapes. Where
are the summaries? Where are the people identified in the videos?
Where are the videos? You know, at the end of
the day, the public needs to see this information and
(38:07):
judge for themselves. And you're right. If there are miners
that are identified in there, redact those names. If there
are videos of miners, you know, blur the images. But
who else was in this home? Who was there and
who was part of this criminal enterprise that Epstein ran
for years?
Speaker 1 (38:24):
Spencer. Question.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
Guys joining me Spencer Couven chief legal officer Gold Law,
who has represented so far and counting nine of Epstein victims.
Do you believe, Spencer, that any of your clients, some
miners at the time, do.
Speaker 1 (38:44):
They have reason to believe they were videoed?
Speaker 4 (38:46):
All of them that were inside the home had a
fear that they were video taped. Absolutely, because once it
came out that there were cameras in the home, then
they were afraid that there were going to be videotapes
that were going to be released of them. And they
still to this day live in fear. You know, I
mentioned I represented victim number one. You know, she has
(39:07):
still been anonymous up until this day. It has been
almost twenty years since those cases were prosecuted, and both
in civil and criminal court, and you know, even to
this day, she's been anonymous and she's afraid that her
identity will be disclosed in some of these videos.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
Well, not only should she be concerned about the video
being released and she's in the video, but they are
already five dead bodies piled up, five dead bodies, three
of them Epstein victims. I assume you've brought that to
the attention of your clients.
Speaker 1 (39:42):
Correct.
Speaker 4 (39:43):
Oh, I didn't need to bring it to their attention.
They brought it to my attention. They are all very afraid.
They're concerned for themselves, they're concerned for their family members.
You've got to remember this was a defense team even
at the time that was so hard on these victims
that they had people in SUVs following them at all
hours of the night, showing up at their jobs, you know,
(40:06):
questioning them and making veiled threats, you know, about if
they talk, what could happen to them. So they are
very afraid when they start seeing bodies pile up around
this whole Epstein debacle. And I call it a debacle
because of the way that the federal government and the
state government handed handled this prosecution. It was an absolute
debacle from the beginning. And now you know, people are
(40:29):
trying to, I believe, cover up the truth and cover
up what occurred. Listen, I know for certain.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
Well settle hand Spencer, because it seems like everyone that
speaks out mates with misfortune.
Speaker 3 (40:41):
Yeah, it's sad. It's sad.
Speaker 4 (40:44):
You know. I was going to say, I know for
certain that there are individuals high up in the corporate
world who have not been disclosed that were customers of
the Epstein Maxwell trade. I know they exist. I just
can't talk about them because of attorney client privilege and
clients that were traded to them. But they exist and
(41:05):
they haven't been disclosed. That information's out there and the
government should release all the names.
Speaker 1 (41:10):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (41:10):
Spencer Kavian is joining as chief legal officer at Gold Law,
representing and counting nine Epstein victims. I'd like you to
repeat what you just said in regular people talk.
Speaker 1 (41:23):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (41:25):
Not everyone is familiar with the intricacies of the Epstein case,
and I find what you said just then extremely privative.
Please repeat regarding corporate clients of Epstein's.
Speaker 4 (41:37):
So, I know for certain that a number of my
clients have been traded to high level corporate individuals on
Palm Beach Island that would come and visit the island
and then make a call to the home and either
get Maxwell or Epstein and tell them they were in
town and they would like someone's quote sent over. Those
(41:59):
individuals told me in confidence based on attorney client privilege,
which we then relayed to the defense team for Epstein.
Those cases resolved and settled quietly under confidentiality. Now, both
my clients and Epstein wanted to remain confidential. In that circumstance,
I can't disclose those people's names. I'm duty bound under
(42:23):
my privilege and I'm not allowed to disclose it. But
at the end of the day, I know those people
exist and those people's names should be disclosed by the government.
Speaker 2 (42:35):
Spencer Couven, you know you're preaching to the choir right now,
you are preaching to the choir.
Speaker 1 (42:40):
I know this is wrong. I know this is wrong, and.
Speaker 2 (42:44):
I also know that whoever speaks out and calls it
wrong is courting misfortune. I know that we wait as
justice unfolds, God willing.
Speaker 1 (42:55):
Thank you, mister Couven. Nancy Grace signing off, goodbye. Friend.
Speaker 2 (43:01):
Is the saf
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Message to Bondie, Pam Bondie, the US Attorney General release
the files, the Jeffrey Epstein files in case you need clarification. Bondie,
you promised, now deliver. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.
(00:27):
I want to thank you for being with us. Joining
us tonight is a very special guest, Mark Epstein. This
is the biological brother of Jeffrey Epstein, now dead.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Mister Epstein, thank you for being with us.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
You're welcome, Mark, if I may call you that. Sure,
you have been disturbed from day one about the claim
your brother, Jeffrey Epstein committed suicide. You say that did
not happen.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
Why?
Speaker 3 (01:04):
Well, first of all, it was sort of like almost
day two. What happened. When I first heard that Jeffrey
was found dead from the parent suicide. I heard it
on CNN. The government didn't notify me as they claimed.
I heard it on CNN, and at first I had
no reason to doubt that, because you know, I knew
he was in jail, he was potentially facing a very
(01:24):
long term. I knew he wouldn't want to live like that.
He didn't have any children to worry about. Our parents
are gone, and he wouldn't have to worry about me,
So there was no reason to doubt that. But then
the next day, the next morning, I had to I
had to identify his body because I'm the next of kin.
And they did the autopsy, and so far, you know
(01:46):
the same thing. I just assumed it was a suicide.
But then the city pathologist who did thisice of the
autopsy with Michael Bottom, there's forensic pathologists on my behalf
witnessing this. They both came out of the atop the
room and they said they couldn't call it a suicide
because it looked too much like a homicide. Now that
(02:06):
never appears in any government report and no one speaking
about that. The two qualified forensic pathologists who did the
autopsy could not call it a suicide because it looked
too much like a homicide. And then a few days later,
Barbara Samson, who was the chief medical examiner, she declares
(02:27):
it was a suicide. And let's be clear, Barbara Sampson
never saw the body. She wasn't at the autopsy, and
after the autopsy was over that day, we blamed the body,
so she never saw it. Just like psh Ptel made
that statement that you know because he's a prosecutor and
everything else. He said, you know a suicide when you
(02:49):
see it. I mean he said that in that congressional
or I sent it here in young and the oath
I would take, and he said, you know his suicide
when you see it. The first questions that came to
me we were how many suicides is he's seen? Okay?
And also he never saw the body, He never saw
the scene. I don't think he was at the scene
of the crime that day, or I don't know if
(03:10):
he was day afterwards, but that wouldn't matter. Everything seems
to be covering up the fact that the mythologist who
did the autopsy wouldn't call it a suicide. Other people
are called with the suicide, ignoring these very qualified professionals.
Doctor Biden has done about five hundred autopsies on prison debts,
(03:31):
and I'm not sure how many. Doctor Roman did, certainly
more than Cashptell.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
You know, with us, everyone is Mark Epstein. This is
Jeffrey Epstein's brother, who doesn't have a dog in the fight,
no skin in the game to opine as to whether
Epstein committed suicide or not. But what he's saying is very,
(03:55):
very disturbing. Day one, Mark Epstein, I was concerned about
the markings.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
And I've prosecuted and investigated.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Many many homicides more than I can count, and have
investigated suicides as well to determine if they were homicides.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
And the first thing that jumped out.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
At me was the marking on your brother's neck, which
was a straight across horizontal ligature mark.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
And when someone hangs themselves.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
Even from the side of a bed, think about Robin Williams,
who committed suicide by use of a ligature from a
door knob. Okay, this is not a traditional hanging, for instance,
from an elevated point. Even from that type of suicide
(04:45):
from a bed, you would see a you or a
smiley marking on the neck.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
This was a.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Straight horizontal ligature mark, indicative of someone wrangling him with
a ligature from behind. It's a subtle but important distinction
which I will discuss momentarily with a forensic expert. Let
me understand, Mark Epstein, you just stated that you learned
(05:16):
about the suicide allegation from TV.
Speaker 3 (05:19):
Yeah. I was actually in Norfolk, Virginia, having breakfast at
a restaurant and the television was on don't tune to CNN,
and I saw my brother's picture up here and they
said that he was found dead from an apparent suicide.
That's how I learned about this. I mean the Justice
Department report. They said they notified me. They did not.
There's a lot of errors in the Justice Department report.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
Why would they have lied about that.
Speaker 3 (05:44):
They're trying to make it look like a suicide.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
Why Why do you believe the government. And I'm not
one for conspiracies, Mark at all. Why because I don't
think people can keep their yap shut long enough to
maintain a conspiracy, That's why.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
But in this.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
Case, the refusal to release the files that were promised
to us months ago, promise after promise after promise, the
confusion around suicide, the homicide, the edited video, and again
we're hearing from d C, well there's nothing in the files.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Well, if there's nothing in the files, release the files.
We have got I.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Think now four suicides connected to your brother's case. Four
four suicides Jeffrey Virginia Giffrey, your brother, his French counterpart,
according to law enforcement, and two other alleged victims. Now
(06:49):
five people commit suicide. Can that possibly be a coincidence,
Mark Epstein.
Speaker 3 (06:58):
There's also other things that they used a question like
also a few days after the death, Bill Barr, an
attorney general, you know, came out publicly and stated that
he saw the video and he saw that nobody went
in or out of the tier, and that convinced him
it was a suicide. And when I heard that, I
thought this is ridiculous. I thought, why is the Attorney
(07:18):
general himself watching this whole night long video, you know,
putting he up somebody in his office watch it and say, hey, Bill,
nobody went in or out. That was number one and
number two to assume that he was it was a
suicide because nobody went in or out when there were
twelve other prisoners on that tier, I would not have
(07:38):
to go in or out of that door if they
were going to kill somebody on the tier. And I
was told that shell doors were left unlocked that night.
And I was also told by somebody who was familiar
with the prison that they weren't surprised to hear that.
So and also to think that somebody could get to
Jeffrey's tier, go inside, you know, kill somebody, and then
(08:00):
leave completely undetected, it's just like a stupid statement that
you know, that's not what you're based on. We can't
find out who the other prisoners on that tier were,
when did they get there, and where are they now.
There's been no interviews of all the prisoners on the tier,
which would normally be done in a situation like that.
There's no record of that. So when I heard Bill
(08:24):
bar say that, and then you know, the forensic pathologist
said they couldn't call it a suicide because it looked
too much like a homicide. I mean, if you just
looked at the facts of this and forget it was
Jeffrey Epstein and forget the case against them for a minute,
you know, this doesn't look like the suicide, you would
investigate this as a homicide. And then also the night
(08:45):
when they locked up. But we have there as the
record of you know, we know about the two gods
that got in trouble, you know, because they weren't doing
the rounds, you know, Toba Noel and Michael Thomas. No
Michael Thomas came on shift in the middle of the night,
so he wasn't there, and they locked up the tear
and there's never any there's never ever just one god.
There on reports, there's a mention of an unnamed god
(09:07):
number one and an unnamed god number two. There are
questions who are they and why are they unnamed? Are
they actual prison guards? Could they have been put there to,
you know, to kill somebody and then they disappeared into
ether without any record of who they are. There's all
these unanswered questions that in a normal wear honest face,
(09:28):
even if it was a suicide, these questions would not
be kept secret. There's too much, too much mystery about it.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
As a matter of fact, Mark Epstein, if this were
any case but your brothers, everything would be very, very
transparent with a simple for you Freedom of Information Act request.
Because Epstein's case is over, he's dead, it is no
longer an ongoing investigation as it relates to him. So
(09:55):
if that's true, why haven't all of these questions and answered?
And why haven't these files been released? I've handled literally
so many cases, thousands of cases, I can't count them.
And when a case is over, When a case is over,
say the Purp dies or the appeals are exhausted, the
(10:16):
files are released. The Purp's dead, Epstein is dead, these
files should be released. You know you mentioned FBI director
Cash Ptel. Did you state Mark Epstein that Patel stated,
you know, I know a suicide when I see one.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
Yeah, he said that it's a public record. He said
that in the of them in hearing. He listed his
credentials as a prosecute.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
He's not a medical doctor, he's a lawyer.
Speaker 3 (10:41):
Well, that's what I said before I said he's not
a forensic pathologist. He doesn't have a medical degree. I
even joked, I said, maybe he has a boy Scout
merit page in first aid. What is he basing his
expertise on. That's a question. Also, I understand something when
the government quickly calls this suicide, but that sort of
kills any investigation because if it's a suicide, there's usually
(11:02):
there's two questions on the suicide. One how did they
do it? And two? Why? You know? And how do
they do it? Is usually simple, I say, if you
find somebody spat it on the sidewalk where they jumped
off of a building, if they're laying in a pool
of blood with a gun on the floor, well they
shot themselves. You know, it's a pretty simple answer of
how somebody committed suicide. The why doesn't matter because you know,
(11:26):
in this case he's dead, but it stops the investigation.
There's no reason to investigate any further. That's why they.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
Call it, of course, because in jurisdictions, for a suicide
is a crime, the purp is the dead person.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
It's very obvious.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
So when something is named a suicide, when it's determined
to be a suicide, that is all investigation. There's nothing
to investigate if it's a suicide, homicide altogether different. In
addition to Patel, now the theory is emerging Mark Epstein
that your brother, Jeffrey Epstein, was not just a multimillionaire,
(12:08):
that he was actually a US and Israeli intelligence service spy,
and that that is why the files are not being
released because there is sensitive information in the files as
it relates to US security. What do you make of
(12:32):
the claim that your brother was, in a fact an
intelligence agent.
Speaker 3 (12:37):
Well, I've heard this for years already. This is that
the first time that's been raised. I have no idea
to tell me what he was doing. So, and I
said before, I don't want to speculate on anything, Because
I start speculating, I lose credibility. I like to stick
to facts. So I have no idea about what Jeffrey
was doing, if for anything, but I do believe he
(12:59):
was built to quiet for the information he had.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
What information?
Speaker 3 (13:03):
Yeah, well, I've said publicly before in the in the
twenty sixteen election, he told me that he he didn't
tell me what he knew, but if he said if
he knew what he if he said what he knew
about the candidates trumping won, they'd have to cancel the election.
So he obviously had some dirt on on Donald, you know.
So he said if he said what he knew, they'd
have to cancel the election. That's what he told me.
(13:25):
You can make out of that whatever you want, But
that's a quovoute. Oh you could take You could take
that wherever you want.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
What disturbs you the most?
Speaker 2 (13:35):
Mark Epstein, let's get off the allegations that your brother
was a spy all that, although that has now reared
its ugly head as an excuse why these files are
not being released. We've all heard of redaction. I've had
to redact many, many documents before they are released. And
(13:56):
you are to redact or mark out with a white
man mark. That's what I'm talking about. Redact only sensitive portions.
Why can't the files be released with any intelligence related information?
Speaker 1 (14:09):
If there is any redacted?
Speaker 2 (14:11):
What about the other thousands and thousands and thousands of pages?
Speaker 3 (14:16):
Mark, Well, as far as I'm concerned, they should release
everything they can. I have no qualms with that, you know.
And then the question also becomes, you know, if Bill
Bond made the statement, you know, to quash the investigation.
You know that Jeff it was a suicide, which, like
you said, end's investigations and Krispateell's claiming it's a suicide
without any expertise, without even he never saw the body either,
(14:38):
you know, and it's quickly deemed the suicide. You know,
who if he was killed, who ordered the hit? So
to speak? Who are these people covering up for? That
should be the question that we're looking at if it was,
because most people who look at all the facts believe
it was a homicide. You know, people see a little
bit here, a little bit there. You know, we get
(15:00):
these fifteen minutes to talk on a podcast or something.
You have to look at all the facts. That will
take you quite a lot of time. We have mastered
a lot of information and everyone who has seen the
bulk of it. Nobody thinks it's a suicide, and so
who is being protected? That's the question.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, we are speaking to Mark Epstein.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
This is Jeffrey Epstein's brother.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
And the issue is not whether we like or hate,
love or hate Jeffrey Epstein. We don't have to condone
what he was accused of doing. Of course we don't.
The issue is why are these files not being released?
Speaker 1 (15:51):
Now?
Speaker 2 (15:51):
We've been told from the highest source that there is
no quote client list. There may not be a client
list in the way that you imagine you open a
little black book and you go through it alphabetically and
you find names and phone numbers and emails and addresses.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
That may not exist.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
But those files could contain indications and names, descriptions of events, flights,
and so much more to impugne the integrity of many,
many highly placed individuals, multimillionaires, celebrities. We don't know. Why
(16:31):
don't we know? Because the files have not been released.
And now with claims that the video from the night
of the death, as Mark calls it, the murder, has
been doctored, it was released as raw footage. It is
anything but raw.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
According to expert something.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
You know, I don't think somebody got into the tier
to kill them and then left, So the video is
not going to show that. But what I want to see,
which also we can't get, is the video of the
infirmary area of the prison because when Jeffrey was found
dead after they tried to work on him, which I
don't know why, because the autopsy showed he was dead
(17:15):
for at least two hours when he was found at least,
most likely a lot more and there's other reasons for that,
but at least two hours. So he was taken to
the infirmary. When the fire Department EMP people got to
the jail from the nine one one call, Jeff's body
was already in the infirmary. So I'd like to see
the video footage, you know, all the cameras from the pision,
(17:39):
so where he was, through the infirmary and in the
infirmary itself, because this camera's all over that place. We
can't get any additional video footage because this would show
the condition that Jeff's body was in, how it was handled,
and then there's a picture of them wheeling him out
of the vision. They go to the hospitals on a
gurney and he's got a brace on, and he's in
(18:01):
debated and the DMT guys are squeezing in the air
balloon to try to get into his lungs. Now, these
are professional medical people. It's just's been dead for two hours,
So sort of why the charade of trying to make
it look like he was potentially revivable? I mean, they wasn't.
You know the mark in his neck that you saw
in a photograph, it stayed in his neck. That's the
(18:23):
indication that he was dead for at least two hours,
you know, So why And then I have a photograph
of him from the hospital where he's actually wearing a
hospital gown. You know, he's dead on the gurney with
a hospital gown on. Someone put his arms through the
sleeves and you know it kind of tie in the back.
But why did they dress this dead body in a
hospital gown? Normally dead bodies are either in body bags
(18:44):
are covered by a sheet. So why the charade? Also,
what I was told by people on the scene is
that there was somebody there with a handheld video camera
in the prison infirmary and in the hospital. Where's the
footage from that handheld video camera, stuff that wouldn't like,
as you said, would normally be open and available in
(19:05):
a regular case and a regular suicide, but nothing was
being released.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
Mark.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
I've got to tell you something, Mark, I have investigated
and prosecuted and covered literally thousands of homicides of deaths.
I've never seen a dead body put into a hospital gown. Never,
(19:31):
not once. That's very disturbing. I had not heard that
detail until you just told me that. So you have
a video of your brother wearing a hospital gown.
Speaker 3 (19:41):
Not a video photograph. That's unmistakable. It's Jeffrey in the
hospital gown on the journey in the hospital. Yeah. And
when I when I first when I first saw that,
I got a question that somebody who was on the seat,
I said, what was Jeffrey wearing when he was found?
I thought, well, if he was wearing a hospital gown
when he was found, it makes sense. But turns take no,
he wasn't wearing hospital gown. He was wearing the pre's
(20:01):
an orange shorts and shirt when he was found. So
someone went through the trouble of dressing this dead body
in a hospital. Gain.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
Why do you believe that there is a cover up happening?
Speaker 1 (20:14):
Right now.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
I already know you believe he was murdered. You don't
refer to it as a suicide or a death. You
refer to Jeffrey Epstein's murder your brother. Why do you
believe there's a cover up now, Mark Epstein, Well.
Speaker 3 (20:27):
It's always been covered up. It never came out and
said it was, you know, anything other than a suicide,
even though the actual pathologists who did the autopsy, the
only two, both claimed that they couldn't quote it a
suicide because it looked too much like a homicide.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
Mark, according to reports, you actually laughed at the handling
of the so called Epstein files.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
Why, well, just again, it's just so blatantly wrong. It's
just wrong the way this is being handled. And the
kids believe as I do, that this is a cover up.
It's sort of like, you know, every time I said before,
every time they do something, they say something, it just
makes it puts their foot further down their throats. They're
(21:10):
digging a deeper hole for themselves because nobody's believing anymore.
But they're saying even you know, the supporters on the
you know, it's not a part of initial for me,
you know, but the President's supporters that are getting really
annoyed and breaking away because they don't like they don't
like being liked.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
I'm with you on that mark. I'm not a Democrat
and I'm not a Republican. I really don't care. I
think they all lie and I have to hold my
nose when I vote. That said, I don't have a
political dog in the fight, but I know we were
promised that these files would be released. We were told
over and over and over, and now they're not. It
(21:49):
stinks to high Heaven the case is over. Why are
the files being withheld? You stated that you laughed. What
is amusing about it is that your Are you laughing
out of irony?
Speaker 1 (22:05):
What makes you laugh about this situation?
Speaker 3 (22:08):
Well? Well, the thing I really think that was the
main thing was Cash Purtell's line, I which is, how
stupid is that him to claim, you know, was suicide
when you see when when he didn't see this suicide,
He didn't see Jeff's body or anything about it. This
was almost six years ago and he's now claiming, you know,
with suicide when you see it. I mean, how did
he expect anyone to believe him give him any credibility
(22:30):
on a statement like that to mean it was funny.
It was just it was so ridiculous.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
Maybe I would laugh if I weren't so disturbed as
a crime victim myself that we're not getting the answers
that we were promised. Do you believe Elaine Maxwell knows anything?
Speaker 3 (22:45):
She was around a lot. You know, I have nothing
the personally in this in the dog fight with her,
but yeah, she probably knows a bunch. She was around
for a lot of this stuff. That was the area
when she and Jeffrey were close.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
Mark Epstein joining us Jeffrey Epstein's brother. He is convinced
Epstein did not die by his own hand and has
brought up multiple inconsistencies with what we are being told
is true.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
Final thought, Mark.
Speaker 3 (23:15):
It's not only me that's convinced. It's everybody who looks
at all the information we've mayreed so far, and there's
more coming in. We're finding new information that will be out.
But again, I don't want to speculate, and I don't
want to put information out that I don't know for sure.
But there's more stuff coming out, and it's not just me,
it's not just my fight. A lot of people, most
(23:37):
people who've seen it's not all the people who've seen
all the information we have no but out of that group,
nobody believes it was a suicide.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
Well, you know, Mark, you just says something else extremely
interesting to me and significant. It's not just about you.
It's not just about your brother, Jeffrey Epstein. It's about
what's right and what's wrong, and broken promises and the
fact that our whole system is based on seeking the truth,
(24:05):
regardless of what that truth may be. Maybe we'll get
the files and there'll be nothing in there. Maybe it
will be this morning I had oatmeal, then I took
a job in Central Park. I don't know. But the
fact that we're not getting them, the fact that we're
being told there's nothing in the files, well, if that's true,
then release them.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
This is no way to run an investigation.
Speaker 3 (24:31):
In other part is that every American citizen should be
concerned that here you have an American citizen who was
killed in in prison under federal protection. Yeah, that should
that should diserve everybody if that could happen. Well, so
what's part of the story is that in a few
days after the death, they were trying to have to
(24:52):
appeal the bail decision. Jeffrey to see if he can
get bail, and he was putting up it would have
been the largest bail in US Street. And the hearing
was coming up for that, so you know, again I
wasn't involved on the day to day thing, and I
found out about that afterwards that the hearing was soon
to come. And I know Jeffrey. I would say, well,
(25:12):
you know, if he was going to commit suicide, he
would wait to see if he got bailed, because if
he got bailed, he'd be out of jail. He'd be
living in his house with an ankle monitor on and
armed guards to make sure he didn't go anywhere, and cameras,
you know, but he wouldn't be in jail. So why
would you kill yourself before that bail hearing. I could
(25:32):
see if he had the bail hearing and it was denied,
and then he didn't want to spend another jail year
in jail awaiting trial. Okay, another's not your reasons to
take yourself out. But that hearing didn't come up yet,
it was soon to happen, So why would he kill
himself before the hearing for bail? Doesn't make sense, anybody.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
No, it doesn't.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
It doesn't makes his mister Epstein, we wait as God
willing justice unfolds.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
Goodbye, Miss Epstein.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
Joining us now is a very special guest, Spencer Couven,
chief legal Officer Gold Law, who has represented nine Epstein victims,
nine nine now.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
Prosecuted a lot of cases.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
And when I would have three or four victims, that
would be like an avalanche. You, a single lawyer, have
represented nine, which tells me that there are many, many
more out there, probably that we don't even know about.
It's concerning to me, mister con First of all, thank
(26:40):
you for being with us.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
That there are five.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
Suicides, five alleged suicides connected to this case. Does somebody
in this universe want me to believe that five people
connected to this case all committed suicide? And let's see,
(27:04):
there's Epstein, there's Virginia'sjufray, There's a French Epstein who was
a pimp of little girls. There was Carolin Angiano, and
there was leip sky Patrick. That's five people, three of
those Epstein victims, three dead. One is Epstein and the
(27:24):
other is his French counterpart. That they would trade little girls.
As you're just twelve years.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
Old, he ends up dead.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
Wow, are any of your clients worried about how people
connected to this case are dropping dead light flies.
Speaker 4 (27:39):
I got to tell you, Nancy, you know a couple
of issues. First of all, the moment he was re
arrested in New York, when his plane landed, or New
Jersey at that moment, I did an interview shortly thereafter,
advising the general public he was never making it out alive,
and you know, prophetically he didn't. I was one of
(27:59):
the first said he wouldn't make it out alive, and frankly,
I continue to be a disbeliever in the story that's
been populated by the FEDS and the Department of Justice.
There are just way too many connections here. I can
also tell you exclusively because I don't know that I've
ever talked about this before, but shortly after he passed
in jail, I received a call from one of the
(28:21):
guards at the facility who had retired. This is somebody
that wasn't working there at the time, but was able
to speak with me on authority because he had worked
there and said, there is no way that someone within
that type of a facility could have the opportunity to
commit suicide. This is the most secure, one of the
(28:41):
most secure prisons we have in the United States. It
is a prison within a prison within a prison. It
is three levels of high security, constantly monitored. And it
was unbelievable to him that somebody in there would potentially
be able to commit suicide. And then look at the photographs.
This is a gentleman that was on suicide watch just
a few weeks prior, and yet they give him sheets,
(29:04):
and they give him pill bottles, and they give him wires.
In the photographs you can see all of the things
that they gave him that potentially they could then use
later to say, oh, well, look at all this stuff
he used to commit suicide. It's just absolutely unbelievable. It's
unbelievable to me, it's unbelievable to the victims I represent.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
Well, Spencer hold on moment, I want to follow up
before I lose the thought. Spencer Coban joining US Chief
Legal Officer gold to Law, who has represented nine and
counting Epstein victims.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
I've been in a lot of prisons and a.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
Lot of jails, a lot more than I can even
remember since I started prosecuting violent crimes in nineteen eighty seven.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
That said Spencer, You're right.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
Never in any jail, any penitentiary that I have, any
youth facility, a GV jail that I've ever seen, did
a cell have as much strewn around as the Epstein
jail cell. When I saw that, I'm like, that's impossible.
Inmates are not allowed all of those sheets, blankets, acute trema.
(30:18):
That doesn't happen. Why Because it is a homicide suicide risk.
Those sheets can be torn into strips and used to.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Commit a homicide. You do not see that in a facility.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
And the moment I saw that, Spencer, I knew it
was wrong.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
What we're showing right now that would never happen.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
Anybody in the justice system knows this is no in oh, Spencer.
Speaker 4 (30:46):
This is top level security prison, right, this is where
we hold terrorists and high level prisoners. You're absolutely right, Nancy,
there is no way. And I've been inside jails as
well in the work that I do on behalf of victims,
interviewing people, and this is just impossible. It was impossible
to believe when I saw it. It was impossible to
(31:06):
believe on behalf of my clients. I couldn't believe it
at the time, and my clients couldn't believe it either.
You know, it's just atrocious, and I want to bring
you back. You know, I've been representing victims going back
to the original prosecution of this case in Palm Beach.
I represented victim number one, that was a fourteen year
old girl that I helped walk through the criminal justice
(31:29):
and then subsequently the civil justice system, which started the
landfall of future victims of Jeffrey Epstein. And you said
before how many. I can tell you that in my
contacts with the FBI during those investigations, there were literally
hundreds of victims, hundreds of young girls who had been
trafficked by Epstein and Maxwell. They were out there. And
(31:52):
then there were more than hundreds that actually submitted claims
when the funds were seized over in the Virgin Islands
after his arrest. So the victims are numerous, The stories
are voluminous. They involve high profile individuals in the business community,
high profile politicians, royalty, you name it. Jeffrey Epstein had
(32:14):
the goods on all of them, and there were a
lot of people. I have no doubt that we're afraid
of what you had to say.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
Crime stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
I'm curious, Spencer Couven and I recall when you said this,
when Jeffrey Epstein touched down at the private airstrip at
Titterborough and he was arrested. You said, he'll never make
it out of jail, He'll never come out alive.
Speaker 1 (32:52):
He'll be killed. You called it. How did you know
that was going to happen?
Speaker 2 (32:58):
I know you're not clairvoyant, so you had to deduce
from the facts that he would be killed behind bars,
and you were right.
Speaker 4 (33:06):
I got to tell you based on the information not
only that I knew at the time that I could disclose,
but based on the information that I still to this
day unfortunately can't disclose based on attorney client privilege and
the people that were involved in some of these trading
for sexual favors over the years. There was just no way.
These people were at too high of a level, They
(33:28):
were too influential, and someone like Epstein with that type
of information I just knew, was never going to make
it out of that system alive. It just wasn't going
to happen.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
We are showing you video now of the prison cell in.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
Which Epstein died. His brother tells me.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
He refuses to call a suicide because he's convinced it's
a homicide. And again, he's got no skin in the game,
no dog in the fight. It doesn't affect the brother
one way or the other, whether it's a suicide or
a homicide.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
He's not getting any money out of it. He's not
doing a book.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
Deal as far as I know, he's just saying this
is no suicide. If you look at that video, Spencer,
it shows the elevator, which is the only way in
and out, although I'm sure they've got to have an
emergency exit stairs, right. But that said, I think that
may be pictured in the video as well, near the
(34:24):
there you go by the elevator. That said, that doesn't
exclude or preclude his neighbors who had been moved in
and out of the sale block, who was there that night. Amazingly,
those names have not been released. What do you make
of it, Spencer?
Speaker 4 (34:42):
You know, there are a number of things. And I
heard your interview with his brother shortly before, and he
makes an excellent point with respect to the video. We
don't see the video of him in the infirmary. In
the infirmary, we need to see that video to see
what learns he had as he came out of hisself.
But more importantly, who was working on that block that night.
We need to see the interviews, We need to see
(35:03):
the names of the people that are involved, and we
need to see all of that video, not just the
snippets they've decided to show to us. And we all
know in this day and age, video can easily be edited.
If you watch that video and the timecode and the video,
and I've watched it numerous times now, there are sections
of that where the timecode jumps and it is weird.
(35:25):
It's strange. I don't know what to make of it.
But if this is the raw video, I would be surprised.
I think they've processed this video through something and that
they've probably cut things out, but I can't be sure
of that. But at the end of the day, release
the names of the people that were on that block
and let us know who was there, so that the
public can talk to them and interview them like you're
doing here today with me, and find out what they know.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
Spencer, I think we should demand more than that. I
don't want just a list of names prepared by the government.
I don't believe that anymore. And I'm certainly not a
conspiracy theorist at all. Again, I don't think people can
keep their yap shut long enough to maintain a conspiracy.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
But unlike any other case that has been closed with
this case is closed with the death of Epstein.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
This is subject to for your Freedom of Information Act.
There is no reason for these files not to be released.
We were promised to release. It didn't happen. Why we're
being told, oh, there's nothing there. Well, if there's nothing there,
then why not release the files. I think we need
the entire set of files, not a list that somebody
(36:34):
in DJ makes up pursue it to what their boss
tells them to do.
Speaker 1 (36:38):
I don't believe that anymore. You also say that.
Speaker 2 (36:43):
You're convinced one hundred percent sure that everything has not
been released, and you are falling back on thousands of
hours of surveillance video from Epstein's homes that remain sealed,
so you know for a fact everything has not been released.
Speaker 4 (37:02):
It is absolutely certain that everything hasn't been released. And
the RUS with respect to release the grand jury testimony, Again,
that is only a very small snippet of information. We're
talking thousands of hours of videotape surveillance in home camera
videos that were taken from the Manhattan mansion, the Saint Thomas,
(37:24):
Virgin Island mansion, and the Palm Beach mansion that I
know exists because I was one of the only attorneys
early on in the case to actually walk through Epstein's
Palm Beach mansion after the incident and during our case,
and I saw firsthand places where he had put the
video cameras in the rooms inside of his home, in
(37:44):
the corner of those rooms, including in bedrooms, his massage room,
and other places in the home. I know it exists.
The FBI knows it exists, and I guarantee that the
Department of Justice has done summaries of the videotapes. Where
are the summaries? Where are the people identified in the videos?
Where are the videos? You know, at the end of
the day, the public needs to see this information and
(38:07):
judge for themselves. And you're right. If there are miners
that are identified in there, redact those names. If there
are videos of miners, you know, blur the images. But
who else was in this home? Who was there and
who was part of this criminal enterprise that Epstein ran
for years?
Speaker 1 (38:24):
Spencer. Question.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
Guys joining me Spencer Couven chief legal officer Gold Law,
who has represented so far and counting nine of Epstein victims.
Do you believe, Spencer, that any of your clients, some
miners at the time, do.
Speaker 1 (38:44):
They have reason to believe they were videoed?
Speaker 4 (38:46):
All of them that were inside the home had a
fear that they were video taped. Absolutely, because once it
came out that there were cameras in the home, then
they were afraid that there were going to be videotapes
that were going to be released of them. And they
still to this day live in fear. You know, I
mentioned I represented victim number one. You know, she has
(39:07):
still been anonymous up until this day. It has been
almost twenty years since those cases were prosecuted, and both
in civil and criminal court, and you know, even to
this day, she's been anonymous and she's afraid that her
identity will be disclosed in some of these videos.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
Well, not only should she be concerned about the video
being released and she's in the video, but they are
already five dead bodies piled up, five dead bodies, three
of them Epstein victims. I assume you've brought that to
the attention of your clients.
Speaker 1 (39:42):
Correct.
Speaker 4 (39:43):
Oh, I didn't need to bring it to their attention.
They brought it to my attention. They are all very afraid.
They're concerned for themselves, they're concerned for their family members.
You've got to remember this was a defense team even
at the time that was so hard on these victims
that they had people in SUVs following them at all
hours of the night, showing up at their jobs, you know,
(40:06):
questioning them and making veiled threats, you know, about if
they talk, what could happen to them. So they are
very afraid when they start seeing bodies pile up around
this whole Epstein debacle. And I call it a debacle
because of the way that the federal government and the
state government handed handled this prosecution. It was an absolute
debacle from the beginning. And now you know, people are
(40:29):
trying to, I believe, cover up the truth and cover
up what occurred. Listen, I know for certain.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
Well settle hand Spencer, because it seems like everyone that
speaks out mates with misfortune.
Speaker 3 (40:41):
Yeah, it's sad. It's sad.
Speaker 4 (40:44):
You know. I was going to say, I know for
certain that there are individuals high up in the corporate
world who have not been disclosed that were customers of
the Epstein Maxwell trade. I know they exist. I just
can't talk about them because of attorney client privilege and
clients that were traded to them. But they exist and
(41:05):
they haven't been disclosed. That information's out there and the
government should release all the names.
Speaker 1 (41:10):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (41:10):
Spencer Kavian is joining as chief legal officer at Gold Law,
representing and counting nine Epstein victims. I'd like you to
repeat what you just said in regular people talk.
Speaker 1 (41:23):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (41:25):
Not everyone is familiar with the intricacies of the Epstein case,
and I find what you said just then extremely privative.
Please repeat regarding corporate clients of Epstein's.
Speaker 4 (41:37):
So, I know for certain that a number of my
clients have been traded to high level corporate individuals on
Palm Beach Island that would come and visit the island
and then make a call to the home and either
get Maxwell or Epstein and tell them they were in
town and they would like someone's quote sent over. Those
(41:59):
individuals told me in confidence based on attorney client privilege,
which we then relayed to the defense team for Epstein.
Those cases resolved and settled quietly under confidentiality. Now, both
my clients and Epstein wanted to remain confidential. In that circumstance,
I can't disclose those people's names. I'm duty bound under
(42:23):
my privilege and I'm not allowed to disclose it. But
at the end of the day, I know those people
exist and those people's names should be disclosed by the government.
Speaker 2 (42:35):
Spencer Couven, you know you're preaching to the choir right now,
you are preaching to the choir.
Speaker 1 (42:40):
I know this is wrong. I know this is wrong, and.
Speaker 2 (42:44):
I also know that whoever speaks out and calls it
wrong is courting misfortune. I know that we wait as
justice unfolds, God willing.
Speaker 1 (42:55):
Thank you, mister Couven. Nancy Grace signing off, goodbye. Friend.
Speaker 2 (43:01):
Is the saf
Host
Nancy Grace
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