November 20, 2025 • 32 mins
A relaxing Caribbean cruise turns into a waking nightmare when crew members discover apassenger dead just hours before the Carnival Horizon returns to Miami.
The FBI is now investigating 18-year-old Anna Kepner’s mysterious death, not commenting on whether foul play
is suspected. Now, Titusville, Florida, is grieving the loss of the high school senior with a bright future, and looking for answers.
Anna Kepner, 18, starts her senior year at Temple Christian School excited about her future. Anna paints her parking spot to match her favorite movie, Clueless, and is ecstatic to be back on the field, cheering for the Lions.
Anna loves the water and is licensed to boat and scuba certified. She enjoys making TikTok videos with her friends and brother. Anna plans on joining the military after high school, already in talks with recruiters. In fact, she’s waiting on the results of her ASVAB testing to determine which jobs will suit her best.
Anna’s family says, “She was the best child you could ever meet,” and a people person, who “drew you in with her smile and the way she carried herself.”
Anna was deeply involved in her community, volunteering with local businesses and her grandparents’ senior living community. She was close with her "Meemaw," who will dearly miss her "Anna Banana."
Family members hope she is remembered for her generosity and spirit and how she lived her 18 years to the fullest.
Joining Nancy Grace today:
- Spencer Aronfeld - Lawyer for Dulcie White, Trial Lawyer and Founder of Aronfeld Trial Lawyers, Author of Illustrated Children's Book, "Sara Rose, Kid Lawyer;" Facebook: Aronfeld Law, Instagram: Aronfeld_Trial_Lawyers
- Dr. Angela Arnold - Psychiatrist, Former Assistant Professor of Psychiatry, Obstetrics and Gynecology: Emory University, Former Medical Director of The Psychiatric Ob-Gyn Clinic at Grady Memorial Hospital,
- Robert Crispin - Private Investigator “Crispin Special Investigations," Former Federal Task Force Officer for the United States Department of Justice, DEA and Miami Field Division, and Former Homicide and Crimes Against Children Investigator; Facebook: Crispin Special Investigations Inc.
- Joseph Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author of "Blood Beneath My Feet," and Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan;" Instagram and X @JoScottForensic
- Susan Hendricks - Journalist, and Author: “Down the Hill: My Descent into the Double Murder in Delphi;" IG @susan_hendricks X @SusanHendicks
- Sydney Sumner - Investigative Reporter, 'Crime Stories'
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace the Bombshelle in the case
of a little teen girl on a carnival cruise, her body,
we now learn, is found stuffed up under a cabin
bed with life vests stuffed on top of her to
(00:24):
hide her dead body, and as we go to air
a shock, suspect is eyed. Good evening, I'm Nancy Grace.
This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for
being with us.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Eighteen year old Anna Kappner, a brilliant straight A student
from Titusville, Florida, embarks on what is meant to be
a celebratory cruise, marking the end of her high school journey.
This trip is supposed to be a joyful escape, unaware
of what is to come.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Stunning developments in the case of little Anna, the teen
girl cheerleader out of Titusvile, Florida, who goes on a
carnival cruise ship with her family. I'm curious there have
been different times of death reported from not only the ship,
but then what we learn from the medical examiner is
(01:19):
very different. Joining me in All Star Panel, but straight
out to Robert Crispin, private investigator, former fed not only
with Homeland Security, Department of justice, but also with the dea.
Robert Crispin is joining us. All location at Port of
Miami where the cruise ships depart. Tell me how difficult
(01:40):
it's gonna be, Robert Crispin to put this case. It's
like Humpty Dumpty. All the king's horses and all the
king's men could never put Humpty together again. Why is
it so difficult to put a case together when A
you had the wrong time of death, and B every
passenger on that floating crime scene is he's gone.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
Yeah, Nancy, forget about that. Soon as he came back
here to the Port of Miami, every single one of
those passengers got off and they went to off corners
of the world, out of the country, all around the US.
The problem I have with all of this is is
purported that all these family members stayed in the same room.
How is it if you're with your father that you
(02:25):
go to sleep as a dad and you don't see
your daughter and she's not in the room. That just
doesn't sit right with me as an investigator starting to
look into this. And then the next morning it's nine o'clock,
everyone's eating buffet, and all of a sudden, where's Anna seriously.
So as an investigator, the FBI is going to have
(02:47):
an issue of trying to figure out who's with Anna,
who's the last person with her, who went to her
cabin with her, because it was already reported that she
went back earlier in the night because she didn't feel good.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
That's a problem.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
An FBI has a big task on her hands unless
they get a confession of somebody who comes forward, because
they've got to start this from the time they put
their first step on that ramp to get up into
that ship, to get to that crime scene. Because, like
we had this discussion before, it's a floating crime scene.
If it is a homicide, which this is looking like
(03:23):
it probably is. Remember all the evidence that could have
been using this Nancy could have been thrown over on
the moving crime scene in three.
Speaker 4 (03:31):
To five thousand feet of water.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
You're never finding it. You're never finding it.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Robert Crispin, let me see Crispin there at the Port
of Miami. Crispin, you said it likely is I murder.
Oh okay, so you think she died of natural causes
at age eighteen, but she went under the committed suicide
and then cover herself up with a blanket. Of course
this is not.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
She was found under the bed, wrapped in the black,
covered by those life jackets.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
Straight out to Spencer Erenfeld joining us known as the
cruise ship lawyer. He is representing the family of another
woman who dies on a cruise ship a mom. Spencer,
let's follow up on what Robert Crispin just reported that
this whole family was staying in the same room. Whether
(04:23):
the entire extended family was in the same room, I'm
not sure about that, but I do know this little
girl did not have a room to herself. So do
you know how small these rooms are? Even the big
rooms on a cruise ship are incredibly small.
Speaker 4 (04:38):
They're super tiny, Nancy. They're kind of like a motel
six size room for the most part. If it's a
windowless balcony root without a balcony, they're as dark as
a coffin in there. And I've had a lot of
cases where people have gotten into those rooms and other
passengers are not aware of it, or people have left
(04:59):
the room and other passengers don't realize it. They're very dark,
soundproof rooms. It's not unusual, especially when you're sharing a
room with a lot of people, to lose track of.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
Somebody, Spencer Arnfeld, not to parse words, but you've heard
of light switches, right, Are you trying to tell me
that they went into their room in the complete dark
of night, put on their PJS and the shroud of darkness,
couldn't see a thing, managed to change clothes, brush their teeth,
(05:31):
get ready for bed, but yet they didn't look over
at her bunk. And then in the morning they got
ready and complete and total darkness. That did not happen.
Speaker 4 (05:43):
It sounds incredible, Nancy, but I've had cases where people
have been found in other people's beds and that people
think people are in the room and they're not in
their room. Yeah. I think it's actually possible that these
dark coffin white cabins would prevent family men, especially when
you're sharing a room with so many people, to keep
(06:04):
track of everybody.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
You know, what, Spencer, do you have children? Are you
lucky enough to have time? I do?
Speaker 4 (06:11):
I do?
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Okay, So you take your child on a cruise and
when you go off to the buffet, you don't take
your child with you, or at least look at your child.
Is that what you're saying, because it's too dark in
the room.
Speaker 4 (06:26):
I'm saying I've seen this in many cases, Nancy. People
have different time schedules and they don't wait around for
each other. They may have thought she was out, they
may have thought she had already left the room. I'm
not defending them, but I'm sure.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
You're not answering my question. Would you leave your cabin
without securing your child on a cruise ship with thousands
of people that could be anything. They could have credical histories,
they could be on drugs, they could be drunk. You're
gonna leave your child alone in the room. No, Why
are you saying this.
Speaker 4 (07:02):
You're preaching to the choir. I'm a hyper sensitive and
vigilant because I know the dangers that work on these
cruise ships. I wouldn't leave my adult wife alone on
a cruise ship, much less my children. But I'm telling
you my experience, this happens all the time. I would
never do it because I'm.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
Not buying it. I don't know what experience you're talking about,
but I'm not buying that. The family doesn't say she's
not in her bed at night. They don't say she's
not in her bed the next morning when they all
go off to breakfast, and then a maid has to
find her body with life vests stuff down there to
hide her. I am not buying it. This is what
(07:44):
we think happened. Listen.
Speaker 5 (07:46):
The kept her family frantically searching for Anna. Last scene
feeling unwell at dinner the night before, when a housekeeper
makes a horrifying discovery. The maid starts to gather linens
for laundry, but notices the sheet missing off the bed.
Taking the bed, she notices a pile of life jackets
stuffed underneath. Removing the life jackets, she discovers the missing
(08:07):
sheet wrapped around Anna's body.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
To you, Robert Crispin, former homicide detective in Miami, former
Department of Justice. It goes on and on now Crispininvestigations
dot Com. Robert. So often we see the killer wrap
the body up or somehow cover especially the face of
(08:32):
the victim. And in this case, the little girl was
wrapped in sheets, possibly a blanket. Why have you seen
that before?
Speaker 4 (08:41):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (08:41):
So it's common knowledge that a lot of perpetrators who
commit a homicide. What's the first thing he wants to
do right away? Conceal the body and tell such time
that he can either dispose of the body in a
certain location or transport the body to a different location,
i e. We don't know that she could have been
(09:02):
thrown off of that ship and something interrupted that homicide.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
I want to go to doctor Thomas con joining us,
the chief Medical Examiner District toom Medical Examiner's office in
the state of Florida. Never a lack of business, Dodger Coin,
thank you for being with us. We know the last
time she was spot on surveillance cameras, and that's going
to be when she was having dinner, where she left
dinner said she fell ill. According to the family. I've
(09:27):
got to find out was that one family member was
that multiple members that heard her say that she should
have been seen on surveillance going into that room starting there.
It was a full twenty four hours before her body
was found. It was the next day. How much evidence
have we lost because of the delay of her being
(09:48):
on a cruise ship in the middle of the Caribbean.
Speaker 4 (09:52):
Well, hopefully not too much.
Speaker 6 (09:53):
I mean, the process of decomposition wouldn't have progressed too
much in that timeframe where we would still be able
to determine the cause of death. We would still have
enough ability to grab toxicology or fluids for toxicology testing,
so all the evidence should still be present on the
body and within the body. Same thing with trying to
(10:14):
figure out her actual time of death, right because you know,
I'm assuming that eleven seventeen times when her death was pronounced.
We don't know exactly when during that night she died,
but you know her degree of rigor mortis, meaning how
stiffer a body still is, her degree of libra mortis
meaning the blood settling in the body, whether it was
fixed in place, whether she had a full stomach full
(10:37):
of food that never left her stomach.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
Hold on, let me ask a kind of question right there,
Dodger Coin, I want to clear up something you said
about rigor. Rigor Morris, of course, is when the body stiffens.
But isn't it true after a period of hours, First
of all, the person is killed. Then after a period
of time you go into rigor. Then after several hours,
(11:02):
you come out of rigor and your body is again limp.
What do you do if the body has already come
out of rigor, Because when you're in rigor, it's a
lot easier to tell. Oh, this took two three hours
for rigor to set in. But once you're out of rigor,
how do you determine the time of death based on
(11:25):
the body alone? Forget about surveillance cameras, forget about what
the family says, What about the body itself? What can
I determine on time of death?
Speaker 6 (11:34):
Well, we can't actually give you an exact time, but
we can give you a range. And so we know
that if a person, a normal person under normal circumstances,
we'd expect to come out of rigor between eight to
twelve hours. And so if a person would suggest that
at least maybe perhaps eight to twelve hours has passed
(11:54):
from their time of death. Now there are persons who
go into rigor almost immediately after death, ross that usually
takes we stay about an hour to two hours for
you to start seeing full rigor throughout the body from
head to toes. But generally a range of about eight
to twelve hours we expect the body to be out
of rigor. So if you see a body is completely
out of rigor, it would suggest that that amount of
(12:15):
time has passed since they died. And that's really the
only the range we can give you. I mentioned before
about food in her stomach. You know if she had
left dinner having eaten and she still had food in
her stomach, that would suggest that you know, a small
amount of time elapsed from when she left the dinner
table to when she was killed. Because you know you
figure gastric emptying time the amount of time for our
(12:38):
food to leave our stomach. You know there's a range
of times, but you know we'd expect not longer than
you know, an hour to two hours that to occur.
So you have some evidence present on the body and
within the body that may allow you to give a
range of time from when she.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
Was killed straight out to board certify forensic psychologists over
eighteen years experience Alison Paganelli joining us. Alison, thank you
for being with us. I've heard Spencer Aaronfel go on
and on and on about how dark it is inside
a cruise ship cabin. You do know they have lights.
(13:14):
You just hit the switch and turn on the light.
I find it very difficult to believe the family would
come back in that night thinking the daughter had fell ill,
and come to her cabin and go to sleep without
seeing her, and then get up the next morning and
everybody gets ready and Lisa her breakfast and doesn't notice
(13:35):
she's not there. None of that makes any sense, Allison.
I mean, we're parents who would leave their child behind.
Speaker 7 (13:43):
As far as the lights, which knows that if she
went to the room because she didn't feel well, maybe
the family used the flashlight app on their phone or
something to not disturb her by turning on all the lights.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
And as far as.
Speaker 7 (13:59):
The morning not spotting her in there, you know, there's
lots of possibilities. I would agree with the commentator who
said earlier that they may have thought, you know, she's eighteen,
she's up at the fitness center, she's maybe taken a
walk something like that, will just meet her at breakfast,
or who knows, maybe they had decided ahead of time
(14:21):
like y'all can do, or she can do what she
would like to do. She's eighteen, but everybody meets together
for meals.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
Good point, Allison. So they all go to breakfast and
she's not there. She's not meeting for meals in your
hypothetical fairy tale story right that you're putting out there. Okay,
I don't know what it is with Alison Pagan, Alliot,
Spencer Arnfield. Do you know where your children are tonight?
Spencer do you know where they are right now?
Speaker 4 (14:51):
I have a general sense of where my kids are.
There are adults, and I think that perhaps on a cruise,
people lower their guard and they thought that this young
lady was an adult, perhaps and they didn't need to
be constantly supervising her every move. That is not uncommon
in my experience representing people of this age.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
Sidney Sumner joining US Crime Story's investigative reporter. So the
maid goes in and discovers the body stuffed under the bed.
Could you describe how the maid found the body and
what condition.
Speaker 8 (15:26):
That's right, Nancy, the maid coming to clean the room,
coming to remake the bed, is the one who notices
this pile of life jackets in the sheet stuffed under
the bed, and that's when she discovers Anna's body. Now
that's where things get unclear. So we know we have
this time of death eleven seventeen am on November seventh.
(15:50):
Witnesses say that the maid came in around eleven. That's
when security showed up at this cabin and guarded it
for the rest of the crews. So that's where there's
this big discrepancy.
Speaker 9 (16:02):
Anna's father, stepmother, and other family members join her for
a six day carnival cruise to the Western Caribbean. After
their last day at Porting Cosmeo, Mexico, Anna heads back
to her room early, telling family members she isn't feeling
well during dinner. The next morning, Anna doesn't join her
family for breakfast and isn't answering her door. Her family
begins a frantic search for the teen on the fourteen
(16:23):
deck four thousand passenger ship.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
At first, I was like, no, this can't be real.
Speaker 8 (16:30):
I broke down, like I looked through all of our
pictures immediately, like I missed heress on, much like I
really cried.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
From Fox thirty five. Now she's dead on a cruise ship.
It's a floating crime scene.
Speaker 4 (16:44):
Either not have all the CCTD or failed to preserve it.
The security officers on cruise ships are really nothing more
than glorified mall cops.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
Sydney Sumner, what is happening, Nancy?
Speaker 8 (16:58):
We've learned through the documents related to this custody disagreement
that the SAIDs are eyeing Anna's stepbrother as a suspect
in her death. So Anna's dad, Christopher Kepner, just married
Seantel Hudson, who is divorced from Thomas Hudson. So Thomas
and Chantelle. Chantelle share three children, two of which are
(17:21):
still minors. So the older of those two minor children,
Anna's stepbrother, is alleged to have taken part in her death.
Now the father is trying to get custody of their
nine year old daughter and is also trying to figure
out what's going on with this son.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
When you say they allegedly took part in her death,
who this.
Speaker 8 (17:44):
Is Anna's sixteen year old stepbrother, Seantel Hudson's son, Yes.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
Tayspaser Aaronfield, a veteran tild lawyer joining us note as
the cruise ship lawyer. I know that you have read
these documents all this. We are as a result of
an emergency motion for a continuance for a hearing. Explain
what happened, Spencer.
Speaker 4 (18:11):
My understanding of what's happening is that in the divorce proceeding,
certain questions are being asked and one of the parties
is saying, look, we just lost her, and I'm in
no position to go under oath and have to testify
right now. Give me some time, give me a continuance,
allow me to grieve, and then I can appear in
(18:32):
court to continue my divorce. But this is something that
started long before this cruise.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
Well in the divorce proceeding. Yes, and this is a divorce,
correct me if I'm wrong, Sydney Center. I've studied the
filings as have you. This is a divorce between the stepmother,
Chantelle Hudson, and her former husband, Thomas Hudson. So it
seems as if Chantelle was going to be deposed or
asked questions under oath, and she files this emergency motion
(19:01):
for a continuous to delay those questions and cites as
a reason in paragraph two quote an extremely sensitive severe
circumstance has arisen wherein respondence mother will not be able
to testify. Currently, there's an investigation conducted by the FBI
(19:21):
arising out of sudden death of eighteen year old and
A Keptner MS Keptner. The deceased is the daughter of
respondence paramore, and that would be the bio dad Chris
Kepner and respondent and the minor children were all on
(19:41):
the cruise ship together. So bottom line, they're saying they
can't testify or it would put their child, which I
assume to be the sixteen year old brother in jeopardy.
Speaker 8 (19:57):
The court documents are between Sean Tell Hudson and her
ex husband Thomas Hudson. They share three children together. The
oldest is eighteen years old, not a minor anymore, but
the sixteen year old and their nine year old daughter
are a part of the custody agreement and it appears
the filing is related to Chantelle not holding up her
(20:18):
end of their co parenting arrangement. So she is asking
for more time to respond to these filings because anything
she may say in court could harm that sixteen year
old in this federal criminal proceeding against them.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
Crime stories with Nancy Grace, how much direct them? This
attention to paragraph three of this emergency motion for continuance,
if we could put that up for the viewers. The
respondent has been advised through discussions with FBI investigators and
her lawyers, Chantelle Hudson, the stepmother, a criminal case may
(21:02):
be initiated against one of the minor children of this
instant action.
Speaker 9 (21:08):
Senior year at Temple Christians, Ana paints her parking spot
to match your favorite movie Clueless and is ecstatic to
be back on the field, cheering for the Lions. Licensed
to boat and scoopas she enjoys making tiktoks with her
friends and brother. Anna plans on joining the military. In fact,
she's waiting on the results of her as VAB testing
to determine which jobs will suit her best.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
And his grandparents gift her a spring cruise has an
eighteenth birthday gift. Anna enjoys the experience so much she
books a six day trip with stops in Oto Rios, Jamaica,
the Grand Caymans, and Cosimel, Mexico.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
How did the little girl die?
Speaker 4 (21:41):
Who's she hanging out with on the ship?
Speaker 1 (21:43):
What time did she die? Who was with her?
Speaker 10 (21:46):
We're trying to piece together exactly what happened. Lindsay Allison,
a passenger staying just down the hall from Anna's room,
remembers crew responding to a medical call around eleven am
Friday morning.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
Security never left.
Speaker 4 (21:58):
They guarded the room very well.
Speaker 10 (22:00):
She doesn't know what happened. Allison can imagine the terror
that ensues when your vacation turns into a floating prison.
Speaker 4 (22:06):
You're out in the middle of the ocean.
Speaker 9 (22:07):
You can't go anywhere, you can't get on land, you
can't flee.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
From our friends. At Fox thirteen, seemingly we're learning more
from neighbors on the cruise ship than we are from
the family. You know, doctor Thomas Coyne. A lot is
going to depend on the condition of the body and
other words, what will the medical examiner be looking at
on an and around her body to determine her true
(22:34):
cause of death?
Speaker 6 (22:37):
Sure? Well, I'm assuming the body was brought in still
wrapped in that blanket as evidence, and so should have
came into the medical examiner's office and a locked body
bag to maintain chan and custody for that evidence. And
they would have started literally from working outside inwards. So
they would have obtained at that time any swabs that
(22:58):
they could have for a bodily fluid, whether it be
saliva or other bodily fluids.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
Uh.
Speaker 6 (23:03):
They would have h removed alliver clothing if present, but
if not, they would have examined her from head to
toe look for injury.
Speaker 4 (23:11):
Uh, they would do.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
This is not t at windsor castle. Do you think
you're sitting with Charles and Camela. Are you talking about
sperm or semen?
Speaker 3 (23:20):
Well?
Speaker 6 (23:21):
Sure, yeah, I mean any any bodily fluids, right, I
mean if a person had person or skin, skin to
skin contact, You're gonna have cellular material, You're gonna have
potentially semen, if there was sect or other bodily fluids,
if there was trauma, and the person causing the trauma
themselves may have been hurt or bled upon that person.
So bodily fluids is all encompassing. But yes, they would
(23:42):
have done a sexual assault examination. They would have looked
inside her vagina to see if there was any evidence
of semen or other fluid.
Speaker 3 (23:49):
Uh.
Speaker 6 (23:50):
Then doing the external and internal examination, they would have
looked for all kinds of injury. They would have looked
for bruising, They would have looked for evidence of strangulation
uh heembrhage in the muscles of the neck, fractures of
the thyrewood cartilage or highwaid bone partiti, and the eyes
all signs that would allow them to determine if there
was a fatal injury present.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
Doctor Corne, you mentioned the partiki in the eyes, and
I assume you bring that up, which is the bursting
of the blood vessels in the eye. They are minute
typically not seen by the naked human eye. You'd have
to put the eyeballs under a microscope to look and
what that bursting. That hemorrhage would mean very often, not always,
(24:31):
but very often if she was asphyxiated. The pressure from
being asphyxiated makes the blood vessels in the eye burst.
Sometimes it can be seen in a nasal cavity as well,
but specifically in the eyes. Would that burst PARTICKII disappear
(24:54):
after say twelve hours, fourteen hours, twenty four hours when
the body gets to the amase office or would that
still be there?
Speaker 6 (25:03):
That would still be there, So all the patika, if
there was partika a president in the eyes, they would
still be there. They would also look within the mouth
as well, because there's no uncommon and got patitiah in
the mucosa of our lips, so underneath our lips, so
those those areas, and you may even see faint tiki
around the eyes, on the skin of the face, depending
upon how hard and how rapid the person was strangled.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
How would you be able to tell the difference between
a manual or ligature of strangulation versus asphyxiations such as
being suffocated by a pillow?
Speaker 6 (25:35):
Sure well, I mean strangulation. You're gonna have marks of strangulation.
You're gonna have bruises around the neck. If you use
the ligature, you'll have a ligature mark around the neck.
If a person used a pillow, they're gonna have to
press really hard because a person who is being asphyxiated
is generally not willing, so they're gonna be fighting back,
and so they'll probably have abrasions on the face. You
may even see some lacerations inside the lips where the
(25:57):
lips are pressed against the teeth. You may even see
tearing at the frenula of the mouth, you know, that
little part that attaches our lip to our gum line.
That tissue may be torn. And then, of course, if
there is a perpetrator, you may also see injuries on
that person. Because my assumption is a person being strangled
or asphyxiated is going to be fighting back, maybe scratching
(26:18):
their attacker. So you may even actually look at that
person and be checking their hands and their body for
signs of injury.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
Another issue, Doctor Thomas Coin, This murder was obviously not
well thought out. The manual strangulation versus ligature manual would
be more spur of the moment. But if a ligature
was used, we may very well find a ligature either
still around her neck or right there with her body.
Speaker 6 (26:46):
Correct, and then you can compare marks on her neck
because very often when you strangle a person with the ligature,
you leave a patterned abrasion or other patterned injury on
the neck that then you can compare to the potential
object used to produce the strangulation.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
For instance, if it's a rope, then you would see
rope marks that can be compared to the actual rope.
Spencer Erinfield joining us. He is the cruise ship lawyer
and has handled a myriad of cruise related accidents and deaths. Spencer,
I want to talk about not just evidence from the
(27:26):
body of this little girl, but digital forensic evidence. You
have been on a million cruise ships investigating cases. It's
like being in a Vegas casino for Pete's sake, more
than NASA. Every square inch is covered like you're walking
through LaGuardia. For Pete's sake. Everything's covered with surveillance video
(27:46):
and the keys to the room are digital their key card.
Nobody's using the old skeleton key anymore, which is valuable
evidence explained.
Speaker 4 (27:58):
So they have like a black that's connected to the
doors of these cruise lines that will show you who entered.
Because each passenger has their own card, what time they
entered and what time the door shut, they will also
be able to tell what time the door opened. And
all you have to do, Nancy is sink that with
the high definition CCTV that they have of that hallway,
(28:22):
and you'll be able to time precisely when she entered
the cabin, and when each and every other member of
the family, as well as the cabin steward who apparently
found her entered the cabin. How long did it take
him once he was in the cabin to exit the cabin.
All those things are very easily determined by CCTV, assuming
(28:45):
Carnival still has it. And this is why I'm thrilled
that the FBI boarded the ship so quickly, because it
prevented Carnival from getting rid of that CCTV footage that
they often do in many of the cases that I'm
investigating and prosecuting right now.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
Robert Crispin speaking of the FBI, I am going to
amen everything Spencer Aaronfeld just said, because you know who
is the security and the investigators on cruise ships. I
do not want them investigating a highly technical murder where
there could be molecular DNA. For Pete's sake, Explain who
(29:26):
is the security and the criminal investigators on cruise ships.
Speaker 3 (29:32):
Wow, Nancy, that is a wide range of unique individuals,
and a lot of them are from England. A lot
of them are from Germany because these ships go all
over the place, so they have their people here. But
some of these people are just every day random people
who went out and got a security license, passed an
Internet test on the internet, got their license, and they're
(29:56):
in charge of thirty five hundred people in international waters
and don't have a clue how to lockdown a crime scene,
how to lockdown people related to a crime scene, and
how to lock down the entire ship if they have to,
Because everybody on that ship, Nancy, when it got here
is a suspect in my eyes as an investigator, Get
(30:17):
off the ship, exit expeditiously.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
I don't think so crime stories with Nancy Grace. So
I could have a bouncer from a bar in one
of the islands as the security or the investigator. Sure
(30:43):
on the cruise ship. It's entirely possibutly, is it.
Speaker 3 (30:46):
Not, Yes, it is absolutely.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
You mentioned three thousand witnesses try nearly six thousand potential
witnesses listen.
Speaker 10 (31:00):
The fourteen deck Carnival Horizon sails to the Caribbean from
Galveston and Miami, with space for nearly four thousand passengers
in addition to a fifteen hundred person crew. The ship
features three pools with water slides, a ropes course and skybike,
a basketball court and jogging track, nine holes of mini golf,
adult and children's clubs, a casino, an arcade, an IMAX
(31:24):
movie theater, a spa, three auditoriums, and more bars and
restaurants than you could visit during four to eight day cruises.
Speaker 1 (31:31):
Let me remind everyone, no one has been named an
official suspect in this case. No one has been named
a POI person of interest. What we are learning tonight
is from court filings and comments made by the family.
That's where we are learning our information tonight. If you
(31:52):
know or think you know anything about the death of
this teen girl, Anna dead on a Carnival Cruz call
seven five four seven zero three two thousand, seven five
four seven zero three two thousand. We remember an American hero,
Sergeant Jeffrey Green, Union County Sheriffs, North Carolina, killed in
(32:17):
the line of duty after ten years serving and protecting,
leaving behind wife now widow, April American Hero Sergeant Jeffrey Green,
Nancy Gray signing off goodbye friend,
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace the Bombshelle in the case
of a little teen girl on a carnival cruise, her body,
we now learn, is found stuffed up under a cabin
bed with life vests stuffed on top of her to
(00:24):
hide her dead body, and as we go to air
a shock, suspect is eyed. Good evening, I'm Nancy Grace.
This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for
being with us.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Eighteen year old Anna Kappner, a brilliant straight A student
from Titusville, Florida, embarks on what is meant to be
a celebratory cruise, marking the end of her high school journey.
This trip is supposed to be a joyful escape, unaware
of what is to come.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Stunning developments in the case of little Anna, the teen
girl cheerleader out of Titusvile, Florida, who goes on a
carnival cruise ship with her family. I'm curious there have
been different times of death reported from not only the ship,
but then what we learn from the medical examiner is
(01:19):
very different. Joining me in All Star Panel, but straight
out to Robert Crispin, private investigator, former fed not only
with Homeland Security, Department of justice, but also with the dea.
Robert Crispin is joining us. All location at Port of
Miami where the cruise ships depart. Tell me how difficult
(01:40):
it's gonna be, Robert Crispin to put this case. It's
like Humpty Dumpty. All the king's horses and all the
king's men could never put Humpty together again. Why is
it so difficult to put a case together when A
you had the wrong time of death, and B every
passenger on that floating crime scene is he's gone.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
Yeah, Nancy, forget about that. Soon as he came back
here to the Port of Miami, every single one of
those passengers got off and they went to off corners
of the world, out of the country, all around the US.
The problem I have with all of this is is
purported that all these family members stayed in the same room.
How is it if you're with your father that you
(02:25):
go to sleep as a dad and you don't see
your daughter and she's not in the room. That just
doesn't sit right with me as an investigator starting to
look into this. And then the next morning it's nine o'clock,
everyone's eating buffet, and all of a sudden, where's Anna seriously.
So as an investigator, the FBI is going to have
(02:47):
an issue of trying to figure out who's with Anna,
who's the last person with her, who went to her
cabin with her, because it was already reported that she
went back earlier in the night because she didn't feel good.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
That's a problem.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
An FBI has a big task on her hands unless
they get a confession of somebody who comes forward, because
they've got to start this from the time they put
their first step on that ramp to get up into
that ship, to get to that crime scene. Because, like
we had this discussion before, it's a floating crime scene.
If it is a homicide, which this is looking like
(03:23):
it probably is. Remember all the evidence that could have
been using this Nancy could have been thrown over on
the moving crime scene in three.
Speaker 4 (03:31):
To five thousand feet of water.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
You're never finding it. You're never finding it.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Robert Crispin, let me see Crispin there at the Port
of Miami. Crispin, you said it likely is I murder.
Oh okay, so you think she died of natural causes
at age eighteen, but she went under the committed suicide
and then cover herself up with a blanket. Of course
this is not.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
She was found under the bed, wrapped in the black,
covered by those life jackets.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
Straight out to Spencer Erenfeld joining us known as the
cruise ship lawyer. He is representing the family of another
woman who dies on a cruise ship a mom. Spencer,
let's follow up on what Robert Crispin just reported that
this whole family was staying in the same room. Whether
(04:23):
the entire extended family was in the same room, I'm
not sure about that, but I do know this little
girl did not have a room to herself. So do
you know how small these rooms are? Even the big
rooms on a cruise ship are incredibly small.
Speaker 4 (04:38):
They're super tiny, Nancy. They're kind of like a motel
six size room for the most part. If it's a
windowless balcony root without a balcony, they're as dark as
a coffin in there. And I've had a lot of
cases where people have gotten into those rooms and other
passengers are not aware of it, or people have left
(04:59):
the room and other passengers don't realize it. They're very dark,
soundproof rooms. It's not unusual, especially when you're sharing a
room with a lot of people, to lose track of.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
Somebody, Spencer Arnfeld, not to parse words, but you've heard
of light switches, right, Are you trying to tell me
that they went into their room in the complete dark
of night, put on their PJS and the shroud of darkness,
couldn't see a thing, managed to change clothes, brush their teeth,
(05:31):
get ready for bed, but yet they didn't look over
at her bunk. And then in the morning they got
ready and complete and total darkness. That did not happen.
Speaker 4 (05:43):
It sounds incredible, Nancy, but I've had cases where people
have been found in other people's beds and that people
think people are in the room and they're not in
their room. Yeah. I think it's actually possible that these
dark coffin white cabins would prevent family men, especially when
you're sharing a room with so many people, to keep
(06:04):
track of everybody.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
You know, what, Spencer, do you have children? Are you
lucky enough to have time? I do?
Speaker 4 (06:11):
I do?
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Okay, So you take your child on a cruise and
when you go off to the buffet, you don't take
your child with you, or at least look at your child.
Is that what you're saying, because it's too dark in
the room.
Speaker 4 (06:26):
I'm saying I've seen this in many cases, Nancy. People
have different time schedules and they don't wait around for
each other. They may have thought she was out, they
may have thought she had already left the room. I'm
not defending them, but I'm sure.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
You're not answering my question. Would you leave your cabin
without securing your child on a cruise ship with thousands
of people that could be anything. They could have credical histories,
they could be on drugs, they could be drunk. You're
gonna leave your child alone in the room. No, Why
are you saying this.
Speaker 4 (07:02):
You're preaching to the choir. I'm a hyper sensitive and
vigilant because I know the dangers that work on these
cruise ships. I wouldn't leave my adult wife alone on
a cruise ship, much less my children. But I'm telling
you my experience, this happens all the time. I would
never do it because I'm.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
Not buying it. I don't know what experience you're talking about,
but I'm not buying that. The family doesn't say she's
not in her bed at night. They don't say she's
not in her bed the next morning when they all
go off to breakfast, and then a maid has to
find her body with life vests stuff down there to
hide her. I am not buying it. This is what
(07:44):
we think happened. Listen.
Speaker 5 (07:46):
The kept her family frantically searching for Anna. Last scene
feeling unwell at dinner the night before, when a housekeeper
makes a horrifying discovery. The maid starts to gather linens
for laundry, but notices the sheet missing off the bed.
Taking the bed, she notices a pile of life jackets
stuffed underneath. Removing the life jackets, she discovers the missing
(08:07):
sheet wrapped around Anna's body.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
To you, Robert Crispin, former homicide detective in Miami, former
Department of Justice. It goes on and on now Crispininvestigations
dot Com. Robert. So often we see the killer wrap
the body up or somehow cover especially the face of
(08:32):
the victim. And in this case, the little girl was
wrapped in sheets, possibly a blanket. Why have you seen
that before?
Speaker 4 (08:41):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (08:41):
So it's common knowledge that a lot of perpetrators who
commit a homicide. What's the first thing he wants to
do right away? Conceal the body and tell such time
that he can either dispose of the body in a
certain location or transport the body to a different location,
i e. We don't know that she could have been
(09:02):
thrown off of that ship and something interrupted that homicide.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
I want to go to doctor Thomas con joining us,
the chief Medical Examiner District toom Medical Examiner's office in
the state of Florida. Never a lack of business, Dodger Coin,
thank you for being with us. We know the last
time she was spot on surveillance cameras, and that's going
to be when she was having dinner, where she left
dinner said she fell ill. According to the family. I've
(09:27):
got to find out was that one family member was
that multiple members that heard her say that she should
have been seen on surveillance going into that room starting there.
It was a full twenty four hours before her body
was found. It was the next day. How much evidence
have we lost because of the delay of her being
(09:48):
on a cruise ship in the middle of the Caribbean.
Speaker 4 (09:52):
Well, hopefully not too much.
Speaker 6 (09:53):
I mean, the process of decomposition wouldn't have progressed too
much in that timeframe where we would still be able
to determine the cause of death. We would still have
enough ability to grab toxicology or fluids for toxicology testing,
so all the evidence should still be present on the
body and within the body. Same thing with trying to
(10:14):
figure out her actual time of death, right because you know,
I'm assuming that eleven seventeen times when her death was pronounced.
We don't know exactly when during that night she died,
but you know her degree of rigor mortis, meaning how
stiffer a body still is, her degree of libra mortis
meaning the blood settling in the body, whether it was
fixed in place, whether she had a full stomach full
(10:37):
of food that never left her stomach.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
Hold on, let me ask a kind of question right there,
Dodger Coin, I want to clear up something you said
about rigor. Rigor Morris, of course, is when the body stiffens.
But isn't it true after a period of hours, First
of all, the person is killed. Then after a period
of time you go into rigor. Then after several hours,
(11:02):
you come out of rigor and your body is again limp.
What do you do if the body has already come
out of rigor, Because when you're in rigor, it's a
lot easier to tell. Oh, this took two three hours
for rigor to set in. But once you're out of rigor,
how do you determine the time of death based on
(11:25):
the body alone? Forget about surveillance cameras, forget about what
the family says, What about the body itself? What can
I determine on time of death?
Speaker 6 (11:34):
Well, we can't actually give you an exact time, but
we can give you a range. And so we know
that if a person, a normal person under normal circumstances,
we'd expect to come out of rigor between eight to
twelve hours. And so if a person would suggest that
at least maybe perhaps eight to twelve hours has passed
(11:54):
from their time of death. Now there are persons who
go into rigor almost immediately after death, ross that usually
takes we stay about an hour to two hours for
you to start seeing full rigor throughout the body from
head to toes. But generally a range of about eight
to twelve hours we expect the body to be out
of rigor. So if you see a body is completely
out of rigor, it would suggest that that amount of
(12:15):
time has passed since they died. And that's really the
only the range we can give you. I mentioned before
about food in her stomach. You know if she had
left dinner having eaten and she still had food in
her stomach, that would suggest that you know, a small
amount of time elapsed from when she left the dinner
table to when she was killed. Because you know you
figure gastric emptying time the amount of time for our
(12:38):
food to leave our stomach. You know there's a range
of times, but you know we'd expect not longer than
you know, an hour to two hours that to occur.
So you have some evidence present on the body and
within the body that may allow you to give a
range of time from when she.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
Was killed straight out to board certify forensic psychologists over
eighteen years experience Alison Paganelli joining us. Alison, thank you
for being with us. I've heard Spencer Aaronfel go on
and on and on about how dark it is inside
a cruise ship cabin. You do know they have lights.
(13:14):
You just hit the switch and turn on the light.
I find it very difficult to believe the family would
come back in that night thinking the daughter had fell ill,
and come to her cabin and go to sleep without
seeing her, and then get up the next morning and
everybody gets ready and Lisa her breakfast and doesn't notice
(13:35):
she's not there. None of that makes any sense, Allison.
I mean, we're parents who would leave their child behind.
Speaker 7 (13:43):
As far as the lights, which knows that if she
went to the room because she didn't feel well, maybe
the family used the flashlight app on their phone or
something to not disturb her by turning on all the lights.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
And as far as.
Speaker 7 (13:59):
The morning not spotting her in there, you know, there's
lots of possibilities. I would agree with the commentator who
said earlier that they may have thought, you know, she's eighteen,
she's up at the fitness center, she's maybe taken a
walk something like that, will just meet her at breakfast,
or who knows, maybe they had decided ahead of time
(14:21):
like y'all can do, or she can do what she
would like to do. She's eighteen, but everybody meets together
for meals.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
Good point, Allison. So they all go to breakfast and
she's not there. She's not meeting for meals in your
hypothetical fairy tale story right that you're putting out there. Okay,
I don't know what it is with Alison Pagan, Alliot,
Spencer Arnfield. Do you know where your children are tonight?
Spencer do you know where they are right now?
Speaker 4 (14:51):
I have a general sense of where my kids are.
There are adults, and I think that perhaps on a cruise,
people lower their guard and they thought that this young
lady was an adult, perhaps and they didn't need to
be constantly supervising her every move. That is not uncommon
in my experience representing people of this age.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
Sidney Sumner joining US Crime Story's investigative reporter. So the
maid goes in and discovers the body stuffed under the bed.
Could you describe how the maid found the body and
what condition.
Speaker 8 (15:26):
That's right, Nancy, the maid coming to clean the room,
coming to remake the bed, is the one who notices
this pile of life jackets in the sheet stuffed under
the bed, and that's when she discovers Anna's body. Now
that's where things get unclear. So we know we have
this time of death eleven seventeen am on November seventh.
(15:50):
Witnesses say that the maid came in around eleven. That's
when security showed up at this cabin and guarded it
for the rest of the crews. So that's where there's
this big discrepancy.
Speaker 9 (16:02):
Anna's father, stepmother, and other family members join her for
a six day carnival cruise to the Western Caribbean. After
their last day at Porting Cosmeo, Mexico, Anna heads back
to her room early, telling family members she isn't feeling
well during dinner. The next morning, Anna doesn't join her
family for breakfast and isn't answering her door. Her family
begins a frantic search for the teen on the fourteen
(16:23):
deck four thousand passenger ship.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
At first, I was like, no, this can't be real.
Speaker 8 (16:30):
I broke down, like I looked through all of our
pictures immediately, like I missed heress on, much like I
really cried.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
From Fox thirty five. Now she's dead on a cruise ship.
It's a floating crime scene.
Speaker 4 (16:44):
Either not have all the CCTD or failed to preserve it.
The security officers on cruise ships are really nothing more
than glorified mall cops.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
Sydney Sumner, what is happening, Nancy?
Speaker 8 (16:58):
We've learned through the documents related to this custody disagreement
that the SAIDs are eyeing Anna's stepbrother as a suspect
in her death. So Anna's dad, Christopher Kepner, just married
Seantel Hudson, who is divorced from Thomas Hudson. So Thomas
and Chantelle. Chantelle share three children, two of which are
(17:21):
still minors. So the older of those two minor children,
Anna's stepbrother, is alleged to have taken part in her death.
Now the father is trying to get custody of their
nine year old daughter and is also trying to figure
out what's going on with this son.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
When you say they allegedly took part in her death,
who this.
Speaker 8 (17:44):
Is Anna's sixteen year old stepbrother, Seantel Hudson's son, Yes.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
Tayspaser Aaronfield, a veteran tild lawyer joining us note as
the cruise ship lawyer. I know that you have read
these documents all this. We are as a result of
an emergency motion for a continuance for a hearing. Explain
what happened, Spencer.
Speaker 4 (18:11):
My understanding of what's happening is that in the divorce proceeding,
certain questions are being asked and one of the parties
is saying, look, we just lost her, and I'm in
no position to go under oath and have to testify
right now. Give me some time, give me a continuance,
allow me to grieve, and then I can appear in
(18:32):
court to continue my divorce. But this is something that
started long before this cruise.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
Well in the divorce proceeding. Yes, and this is a divorce,
correct me if I'm wrong, Sydney Center. I've studied the
filings as have you. This is a divorce between the stepmother,
Chantelle Hudson, and her former husband, Thomas Hudson. So it
seems as if Chantelle was going to be deposed or
asked questions under oath, and she files this emergency motion
(19:01):
for a continuous to delay those questions and cites as
a reason in paragraph two quote an extremely sensitive severe
circumstance has arisen wherein respondence mother will not be able
to testify. Currently, there's an investigation conducted by the FBI
(19:21):
arising out of sudden death of eighteen year old and
A Keptner MS Keptner. The deceased is the daughter of
respondence paramore, and that would be the bio dad Chris
Kepner and respondent and the minor children were all on
(19:41):
the cruise ship together. So bottom line, they're saying they
can't testify or it would put their child, which I
assume to be the sixteen year old brother in jeopardy.
Speaker 8 (19:57):
The court documents are between Sean Tell Hudson and her
ex husband Thomas Hudson. They share three children together. The
oldest is eighteen years old, not a minor anymore, but
the sixteen year old and their nine year old daughter
are a part of the custody agreement and it appears
the filing is related to Chantelle not holding up her
(20:18):
end of their co parenting arrangement. So she is asking
for more time to respond to these filings because anything
she may say in court could harm that sixteen year
old in this federal criminal proceeding against them.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
Crime stories with Nancy Grace, how much direct them? This
attention to paragraph three of this emergency motion for continuance,
if we could put that up for the viewers. The
respondent has been advised through discussions with FBI investigators and
her lawyers, Chantelle Hudson, the stepmother, a criminal case may
(21:02):
be initiated against one of the minor children of this
instant action.
Speaker 9 (21:08):
Senior year at Temple Christians, Ana paints her parking spot
to match your favorite movie Clueless and is ecstatic to
be back on the field, cheering for the Lions. Licensed
to boat and scoopas she enjoys making tiktoks with her
friends and brother. Anna plans on joining the military. In fact,
she's waiting on the results of her as VAB testing
to determine which jobs will suit her best.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
And his grandparents gift her a spring cruise has an
eighteenth birthday gift. Anna enjoys the experience so much she
books a six day trip with stops in Oto Rios, Jamaica,
the Grand Caymans, and Cosimel, Mexico.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
How did the little girl die?
Speaker 4 (21:41):
Who's she hanging out with on the ship?
Speaker 1 (21:43):
What time did she die? Who was with her?
Speaker 10 (21:46):
We're trying to piece together exactly what happened. Lindsay Allison,
a passenger staying just down the hall from Anna's room,
remembers crew responding to a medical call around eleven am
Friday morning.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
Security never left.
Speaker 4 (21:58):
They guarded the room very well.
Speaker 10 (22:00):
She doesn't know what happened. Allison can imagine the terror
that ensues when your vacation turns into a floating prison.
Speaker 4 (22:06):
You're out in the middle of the ocean.
Speaker 9 (22:07):
You can't go anywhere, you can't get on land, you
can't flee.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
From our friends. At Fox thirteen, seemingly we're learning more
from neighbors on the cruise ship than we are from
the family. You know, doctor Thomas Coyne. A lot is
going to depend on the condition of the body and
other words, what will the medical examiner be looking at
on an and around her body to determine her true
(22:34):
cause of death?
Speaker 6 (22:37):
Sure? Well, I'm assuming the body was brought in still
wrapped in that blanket as evidence, and so should have
came into the medical examiner's office and a locked body
bag to maintain chan and custody for that evidence. And
they would have started literally from working outside inwards. So
they would have obtained at that time any swabs that
(22:58):
they could have for a bodily fluid, whether it be
saliva or other bodily fluids.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
Uh.
Speaker 6 (23:03):
They would have h removed alliver clothing if present, but
if not, they would have examined her from head to
toe look for injury.
Speaker 4 (23:11):
Uh, they would do.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
This is not t at windsor castle. Do you think
you're sitting with Charles and Camela. Are you talking about
sperm or semen?
Speaker 3 (23:20):
Well?
Speaker 6 (23:21):
Sure, yeah, I mean any any bodily fluids, right, I
mean if a person had person or skin, skin to
skin contact, You're gonna have cellular material, You're gonna have
potentially semen, if there was sect or other bodily fluids,
if there was trauma, and the person causing the trauma
themselves may have been hurt or bled upon that person.
So bodily fluids is all encompassing. But yes, they would
(23:42):
have done a sexual assault examination. They would have looked
inside her vagina to see if there was any evidence
of semen or other fluid.
Speaker 3 (23:49):
Uh.
Speaker 6 (23:50):
Then doing the external and internal examination, they would have
looked for all kinds of injury. They would have looked
for bruising, They would have looked for evidence of strangulation
uh heembrhage in the muscles of the neck, fractures of
the thyrewood cartilage or highwaid bone partiti, and the eyes
all signs that would allow them to determine if there
was a fatal injury present.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
Doctor Corne, you mentioned the partiki in the eyes, and
I assume you bring that up, which is the bursting
of the blood vessels in the eye. They are minute
typically not seen by the naked human eye. You'd have
to put the eyeballs under a microscope to look and
what that bursting. That hemorrhage would mean very often, not always,
(24:31):
but very often if she was asphyxiated. The pressure from
being asphyxiated makes the blood vessels in the eye burst.
Sometimes it can be seen in a nasal cavity as well,
but specifically in the eyes. Would that burst PARTICKII disappear
(24:54):
after say twelve hours, fourteen hours, twenty four hours when
the body gets to the amase office or would that
still be there?
Speaker 6 (25:03):
That would still be there, So all the patika, if
there was partika a president in the eyes, they would
still be there. They would also look within the mouth
as well, because there's no uncommon and got patitiah in
the mucosa of our lips, so underneath our lips, so
those those areas, and you may even see faint tiki
around the eyes, on the skin of the face, depending
upon how hard and how rapid the person was strangled.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
How would you be able to tell the difference between
a manual or ligature of strangulation versus asphyxiations such as
being suffocated by a pillow?
Speaker 6 (25:35):
Sure well, I mean strangulation. You're gonna have marks of strangulation.
You're gonna have bruises around the neck. If you use
the ligature, you'll have a ligature mark around the neck.
If a person used a pillow, they're gonna have to
press really hard because a person who is being asphyxiated
is generally not willing, so they're gonna be fighting back,
and so they'll probably have abrasions on the face. You
may even see some lacerations inside the lips where the
(25:57):
lips are pressed against the teeth. You may even see
tearing at the frenula of the mouth, you know, that
little part that attaches our lip to our gum line.
That tissue may be torn. And then, of course, if
there is a perpetrator, you may also see injuries on
that person. Because my assumption is a person being strangled
or asphyxiated is going to be fighting back, maybe scratching
(26:18):
their attacker. So you may even actually look at that
person and be checking their hands and their body for
signs of injury.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
Another issue, Doctor Thomas Coin, This murder was obviously not
well thought out. The manual strangulation versus ligature manual would
be more spur of the moment. But if a ligature
was used, we may very well find a ligature either
still around her neck or right there with her body.
Speaker 6 (26:46):
Correct, and then you can compare marks on her neck
because very often when you strangle a person with the ligature,
you leave a patterned abrasion or other patterned injury on
the neck that then you can compare to the potential
object used to produce the strangulation.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
For instance, if it's a rope, then you would see
rope marks that can be compared to the actual rope.
Spencer Erinfield joining us. He is the cruise ship lawyer
and has handled a myriad of cruise related accidents and deaths. Spencer,
I want to talk about not just evidence from the
(27:26):
body of this little girl, but digital forensic evidence. You
have been on a million cruise ships investigating cases. It's
like being in a Vegas casino for Pete's sake, more
than NASA. Every square inch is covered like you're walking
through LaGuardia. For Pete's sake. Everything's covered with surveillance video
(27:46):
and the keys to the room are digital their key card.
Nobody's using the old skeleton key anymore, which is valuable
evidence explained.
Speaker 4 (27:58):
So they have like a black that's connected to the
doors of these cruise lines that will show you who entered.
Because each passenger has their own card, what time they
entered and what time the door shut, they will also
be able to tell what time the door opened. And
all you have to do, Nancy is sink that with
the high definition CCTV that they have of that hallway,
(28:22):
and you'll be able to time precisely when she entered
the cabin, and when each and every other member of
the family, as well as the cabin steward who apparently
found her entered the cabin. How long did it take
him once he was in the cabin to exit the cabin.
All those things are very easily determined by CCTV, assuming
(28:45):
Carnival still has it. And this is why I'm thrilled
that the FBI boarded the ship so quickly, because it
prevented Carnival from getting rid of that CCTV footage that
they often do in many of the cases that I'm
investigating and prosecuting right now.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
Robert Crispin speaking of the FBI, I am going to
amen everything Spencer Aaronfeld just said, because you know who
is the security and the investigators on cruise ships. I
do not want them investigating a highly technical murder where
there could be molecular DNA. For Pete's sake, Explain who
(29:26):
is the security and the criminal investigators on cruise ships.
Speaker 3 (29:32):
Wow, Nancy, that is a wide range of unique individuals,
and a lot of them are from England. A lot
of them are from Germany because these ships go all
over the place, so they have their people here. But
some of these people are just every day random people
who went out and got a security license, passed an
Internet test on the internet, got their license, and they're
(29:56):
in charge of thirty five hundred people in international waters
and don't have a clue how to lockdown a crime scene,
how to lockdown people related to a crime scene, and
how to lock down the entire ship if they have to,
Because everybody on that ship, Nancy, when it got here
is a suspect in my eyes as an investigator, Get
(30:17):
off the ship, exit expeditiously.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
I don't think so crime stories with Nancy Grace. So
I could have a bouncer from a bar in one
of the islands as the security or the investigator. Sure
(30:43):
on the cruise ship. It's entirely possibutly, is it.
Speaker 3 (30:46):
Not, Yes, it is absolutely.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
You mentioned three thousand witnesses try nearly six thousand potential
witnesses listen.
Speaker 10 (31:00):
The fourteen deck Carnival Horizon sails to the Caribbean from
Galveston and Miami, with space for nearly four thousand passengers
in addition to a fifteen hundred person crew. The ship
features three pools with water slides, a ropes course and skybike,
a basketball court and jogging track, nine holes of mini golf,
adult and children's clubs, a casino, an arcade, an IMAX
(31:24):
movie theater, a spa, three auditoriums, and more bars and
restaurants than you could visit during four to eight day cruises.
Speaker 1 (31:31):
Let me remind everyone, no one has been named an
official suspect in this case. No one has been named
a POI person of interest. What we are learning tonight
is from court filings and comments made by the family.
That's where we are learning our information tonight. If you
(31:52):
know or think you know anything about the death of
this teen girl, Anna dead on a Carnival Cruz call
seven five four seven zero three two thousand, seven five
four seven zero three two thousand. We remember an American hero,
Sergeant Jeffrey Green, Union County Sheriffs, North Carolina, killed in
(32:17):
the line of duty after ten years serving and protecting,
leaving behind wife now widow, April American Hero Sergeant Jeffrey Green,
Nancy Gray signing off goodbye friend,
Host
Nancy Grace
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