June 28, 2024 • 45 mins
A new book claims Bryan Kohberger is not a random spree killer, but rather, he had one target in mind the night he allegedly killed four college students in their home off-campus in Moscow, Idaho.
Author Howard Blum claims investigators believe in a non-targeted attack, the killer would have stopped at the first door inside the house, and it would have been instinctive to go into the first rooms after gaining entry, but that isn't what happened. Investigators point to the two surviving roommates, Dylan Mortenson and Bethany Funke, as proof that Kohberger is after a specific target.
Listen as Nancy Grace and her panel discuss the points Howard Blum uncovers during his own investigation of the evidence submitted to a grand jury.
Joining Nancy Grace Today:
- Howard Blum - Author: "When The Night Comes Falling, A Requiem for The Idaho Student Murders;" Instagram: howard_blum_author /X: howardblum
- Brian C. Stewart - Trial Attorney and Managing Partner at Parker & McConkie, https://www.parkerandmcconkie.com
- Dr. Angela Arnold – Psychiatrist, Atlanta GA. Expert in the Treatment of Pregnant/Postpartum Women, Former Assistant Professor of Psychiatry, Obstetrics and Gynecology: Emory University, Former Medical Director of The Psychiatric Ob-Gyn Clinic at Grady Memorial Hospital
- Chris McDonough – Director At the Cold Case Foundation, Former Homicide Detective; Host of YouTube channel: “The Interview Room”
- Joseph Scott Morgan – Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, “Blood Beneath My Feet,” and Host: “Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan;” Twitter/X: @JoScottForensic
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, New and very disturbing details
emerging surrounding the Brian Coberger quadruple murder case. Good evening,
I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for
being with us.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
What happened the fateful night of the University of Idaho
for murders. New theories revealed in a special episode with
author Howard.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
Bloom, Thank you for being with us with us, Author
Howard Bloom has just come out with an incredible book
full chock full of not only theories, but facts supporting
the theory supporting the hypothesis of the prosecution that Brian
Coberg in fact murdered for young University Idaho students. Howard Bloom,
(00:56):
you describe in depth what happens with the two surviving roommates,
Dylan and Bethany.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
Listen in the early morning hours between four am and
four thirty am, Dylan Mortensen says she calls out to
her friends, who she thinks her being too loud. After
hearing more loud noises, Mortenson again tells her roommates to
calm down, she's trying to sleep. She turns and locks
their door, hearing loud noises again. Mortensen opens the door
and sees Brian Coberger allegedly and believing him to be
(01:26):
a partygoer who is leaving, says nothing, shuts and locks
her door again.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
The girl that lived, According to prosecutors, Brian Coburger went
into the home on King Road with a mission to
commit the perfect murder. Could he actually commit mass murder
and not leave a trace behind? And what about the
(01:54):
two that lived? Dylan Mortenson and Bethany Funk.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Listen.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
Dylan Mortenson and Bethany Funk are both home while their
friends are murdered upstairs and are left unharmed. Sources tell
ABC News and author Howard Bloom that Mortenson and Funk
were using their cell phones to communicate before, during, and
after the murders. Many have wondered, since Mortenson and Funk
were both in the home and on their cell phones
(02:19):
when the murders are taking place, why is there an
eight hour delay before police are called in? Why were
other friends called before police?
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Howard Bloom joining us with an all star panel, and guys,
remember we're not having high tea at Windsor Castle. Jump
in with your own theories and questions. The state could
use them.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Howard Bloom.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
I'm curious as well, and you devote a lot of
time to this in your book when the night comes
falling about the delay on Dylan Mortenson's part, she actually
sees the killer leaving the home. There is a serious delay,
and during that time a lot of evidence could and
(03:04):
most likely was lost. Question to you. You described the
police grappling with that's seven to eight hour delay.
Speaker 4 (03:16):
Describe that the police are dumbfounded.
Speaker 5 (03:20):
They can't understand how this girl could see a killer
in the house and do nothing about it. Her behavior
is irrational, and I think though ultimately the police and
I have concluded that a rational explanation is impossible. I
think she was locked in a state of terror. I
(03:42):
also believe Coberger has he descended and passed her on
his way out of the house, was locked in his
own state of mania. He was surrounded by his own
armory of hate, if you will. If Dylan had spoken out,
if she had tried to penetrate the moment that he
was locked in, I think she would have died. I
(04:04):
think she would have become another victim her terror. Her
silence saved her life.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
You know, I haven't really thought about it in the
way that you just stated it, which is chilling. Just
Scott Morgan joining me, Professor forensics, Jacksonville State University, author
of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, and star of
a hit series body Bags podcast. We've gone round and
round about Dylan Mortenson, more so than Bethany because Bethany,
(04:35):
while there, did not see the perpetrator leaving. That's why
more focus has been on Dylan Mortenson. What do you
make of what Howard Bloom just said. I agree with him.
If she had uttered a sound, she would be dead
right now.
Speaker 6 (04:53):
I agree. Here's here's my perspective. I think that there's
an element this where Coburger, if he did in fact
commit these crimes, was in such an exhausted state he
has tunnel vision at this point in time, He's trying
to clear himself of the scene. Think about all of
(05:14):
the energy that he has expended at this point in time,
starting on that top floor where there's just a slaughter
that has taken place allegedly at his own hands, and
then to be surprised by the other two residents on
this floor, with Zana and Ethan, he has to encounter
(05:34):
them and make his way past them. I don't know
that people, and I hope people never do understand the
amount of energy that would go in to try to
commit this kind of heinous crime, and so he's locked in.
I think that probably if she had in fact spoken,
she would have just become an obstacle to him that
he's trying to defeat to make his way to that
(05:57):
door so he can get out and get in that car.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
And leave much the way.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
According to Howard Bloom, Kelley Gonsolvis became let me just
see an impediment because of the ferocity of the attack
on Kelly Gonsolvis, and her father said that he believed
Kelly was the target. Now Bloom is saying Maddie was
(06:23):
the target and Kelly was in the way, So that
supports what you're saying. But I want to follow up
with doctor Angela Arnold. I want you to hear this,
Howard Bloom and Brian Stewart, you often have to go
to state of mind as a trial lawyer. Doctor Angela
(06:44):
Arnold is with US renowned psychiatrist out of the Atlanta jurisdiction.
You can find her at angela Arnold MD dot com.
Doctor Angie, let's analyze what we've just heard, how or
could I use that at trial to explained to this
jury why Dylan Mortenson did nothing. Now I have defended
(07:06):
Dylan Mortenson from the get go. Dylan Mortenson is a
crime victim. Let's not forget that before everybody heaps on
what she did wrong.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
Okay, she did nothing wrong.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
She had been out, like many, many thousands of vandals,
that's the college mascot, drinking and having a good time.
There was a football game that weekend. She comes home,
it's really late, at nine, around four am.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
She's been partying.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
She hears a noise, she hears the dog, she hears
her roommates saying something, and she gets up in that
state of mind, How does she know who he was?
That he was a killer. How does she know he
wasn't just someone visiting and leaving. People were ordering food,
(08:01):
people were going to sleep. They've been partying all night long.
It's four in the morning.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Is that why she.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Didn't call nine one one? Now the crux the rub
is going to be what's in the cell phone communications
between Bethany and Dylan. But can you think of, as
a psychiatrist, a rational explanation as to why Dylan did
not call nine one one.
Speaker 7 (08:29):
Yes, I can, Nancy, because these are let's just remember,
these are kids that are in college. They're partying. It's
close to the end of the semester. Would anyone in
their right mind think, oh my god, there's a killer
in the house and my friends have been killed. I
am sure that didn't even enter their minds. There was noise.
(08:53):
Apparently there was always a lot of coming and going
from this house because they're just kids in college having
a good time, right, that was the culture there. So
she did nothing wrong. I have a feeling that with
all of the communication back and forth and everything, she
had no idea who he was. He wasn't She didn't
(09:16):
recognize him. He was just somebody walking through the house.
And she was probably a little bit scared because of
the noise that she had heard.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
She was a little bit of shocked. I don't know.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
I don't know about her being scared, because if she
was scared, she would have called nine one one.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
I think she was a little bit drunk.
Speaker 7 (09:37):
And maybe she was, Nancy, And so if she was,
it's not like she was out driving and drinking. She
was in her home, Hey hey, hey, and drink slow down, sleeping.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
It off, Slow down, Nellie, you're preaching to the choir
right now.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
I'm on Dylan's side on this crime stories with Nancy Grace.
Back to Howard Bloom.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
Yes, I can explain away why she didn't call nine
one one, But what do we know about her communications
with Bethany during that time the other roommate. Does it
prove she did know an attack was occurring, or does
it prove the contrary You.
Speaker 5 (10:31):
Are raising One of the great mysteries of this case.
All I have been able to find out is that
testimony about those texts were given to the grand jury.
The grand jury heard about it, the grand jury reviewed
some of those texts.
Speaker 4 (10:49):
What they said. I'd be.
Speaker 5 (10:52):
Dishonest if I said I knew. My feeling is, though,
that Dylan and Bethany are both victims. Their lives are
changed forever by these events, and you know, we keep
on looking for a rational explanation for Dylan's behavior.
Speaker 4 (11:11):
It wasn't irrational night.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
I think I know something, I think I can do something,
Howard Bloom, and I may be very be proving very
wrong come trial time. But let me go to a
trial strategist on this.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
Brian C.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
Stewart veteran trial lawyer who is joining us from this
jurisdiction in Idaho.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
He practices there in Utah.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
Brian, you've tried a lot of cases, and if you
want to win a case, you marshal your evidence. You
have a plan what you're going I recall when I
would write out yes, I would write out every question
verbatim for every witness. Of course, you know you have
(11:53):
a plan when you go into a fight, but when
you get a punch in the nose, the plan goes
to hey, right, so you have a plan. Let's think
about these communications, the communications between Dylan and Bethany.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
We know they were communicating by phone.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
Thanks to Howard Bloom, we now know those were not
phone calls, they were texts. Those texts were given to
the grand jury who indicted Coburger.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
Think this through.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
I have a strong suspicion, a deduction that those texts
were about.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
What is the noise? Did you hear the dog?
Speaker 1 (12:35):
What's going on? Are they still awake? Blah blah blah,
Because Brian C. Stewart, if those texts were about, oh
my star, somebody's in the house. Did you hear a scream?
I thought I heard a fight and text to that genre.
(12:55):
I believe those texts would have been used as establishing
a timeline. We would have heard about the nature of
those texts if they were probative.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
In other words, if they proved anything.
Speaker 4 (13:09):
I think that's right.
Speaker 8 (13:10):
We would have heard more about them. They would have
given us more information about what the girls experienced during
that period. But to me, the fact that they were
locked inside their rooms and sending texts rather than talking
or going to find each other tells me that they
were still in fear and didn't believe they Wait.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
A minute, Brian, I don't know if you know that.
My ninety two year old mother lives with us, and
my husband just gave me the greatest gift ever. I
don't like jewelry, fancy cars, or clothes. Don't even say fur.
He gave me I Granny cam.
Speaker 4 (13:51):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
I can see what Granny is doing at night. Has
she fallen on the floor? Is she wandering around aimlessly?
Speaker 1 (14:00):
Do I need to go get out of bed at
three am and go check on her like I did
the first eight years she lived with us. How easy
is it to text? Why do you want to get
up when you're wearing nothing? But a T shirt. Go
out in the hall, knock on your roommate's.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
Door and go, hey, wake up.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
I've got a question. What's going on up there? Technical term?
I don't know if you've got it in Idaho and Utah. Bs.
Of course they're texting. I text back and.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
Forth with the twins. We're in there there in the.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
Back of the house, right, that's not I don't find
that disturbing at all at all, Brian, I don't either.
Speaker 8 (14:37):
But if they had heard some struggle, if they had
heard any screaming, it would make entire sense to me
that they would lay low and be paralyzed by fear
during those hours.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
Okay, Chris mcdonnah joining me, Director Cold Case Foundation, former
homicide detective, star of the Interview Room on YouTube where
I found him, Chris mcdona, haven't we both agreed that
these two roommates, Dylan and Bethany, they were the lowman
(15:07):
on the totem.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
Pole in that they got the bottom of bedrooms and.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
The house looks very different from the front than it
does on the side than it does from the back.
In the front of the house, Chris McDonough as Howard
bloom So vividly lays out in his book, whoever has
to live down there, you can't keep the light out,
even if you use darkened curtains. Every time a car
(15:37):
pulls up in that driveway, that parking area, and a
lot of people do because.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
It's a very steep and narrow road.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
It's one of the only places to turn around and
go back down the descent of the hill. This house
is near the top of a hill and people are
turning around and pulling in. It's a party house. Every
house around is a party house. Constant traffic. So the
lowman on the tone pole gets these two bedrooms, and
(16:09):
that would be Dylan and Bethany air Ago. Therefore, Chris mcdonnaugh,
they keep their doors locked and their curtains pulled almost.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
All the time.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
That is an entry point to get to the other floors.
So people visiting the second third floor residents often come
through that door. So they keep their doors locked, Chris
mcdona and their curtains closed. And that's why, and Bloom
lays it out in his book, that's why the doors
were locked.
Speaker 9 (16:41):
Yeah, absolutely, you're correct, Nancy. I would agree with you
that you know the point of entry. Would you know,
for an individual like this who has taken so much
time to you know, plan this out, potentially to come
through that front door, you know, just doesn't make sense.
The back point of entry would make much more sense,
(17:04):
which also brings us to you know, the communication thought processing.
If I can comment on that for a moment. You know, today,
you know, these this generation just communicates via text. Remember,
up until four o'clock four am, they're still getting people
(17:25):
knocking on that door, i e. The food delivery, et cetera.
So it wouldn't surprise me one iota if at some
point when these texts are revealed that they're communicating with
each other, they're trying to communicate with their roommates, and
quite frankly, when it goes quiet and coburger comes down
those stairs, they may have even been thinking the party's over,
(17:46):
this is the last guy out, and they may have
even gone back to bed, and so that end of itself,
the fear factor could play into this, or quite frankly,
like you mentioned earlier, maybe there's an alcohol on board
and they're just exhausted. They're just they're just college students.
They're going back to sleep, and that would account.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
For the delay and much has been made to the
fact that Coburger was wearing a mask. Why would she
have not been suspicious of that? Do I have to
say COVID?
Speaker 4 (18:16):
Yeah?
Speaker 9 (18:17):
Absolutely, and that and that does you know play play
into this?
Speaker 2 (18:21):
Now?
Speaker 1 (18:21):
Early on we heard Killi Gorinsavis's parents speaking out stating
she was the target. And I understand that because her
wounds were so much.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
More heinous than Maddie's.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
But according to this new Bombshield theory, Maddie was in
fact the target. Also, we are learning from Horod Bloom's
new book, When the Night Comes Falling, that there is
blood evidence that Ethan Chapin jumped up and confronted Brian
(18:58):
Coburger to protect his sweetheart Xenna. Kernodle to Howard Bloom,
I know that you have researched this so much that
it may have become you know, sop to you, but
to us, the revelations that you make in your book
are let me just say, illuminating. Tell me the facts
(19:23):
that support your theory that Ethan was stabbed as he
was trying to protect Xenna, and that after he attacked Ethan,
he goes and says, don't worry, I'm here to help
you to Xena and then kills her.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
What facts support your theory.
Speaker 5 (19:42):
Ethan coming up to confront Coburger is with testimony that
was made to the grand jury. There's also evidence in
the coroner's report that was shared at the grand jury
that he was killed with a one massive cut to
his neck that caught his jugular vein. Has to Xana
(20:04):
speaking out, UH, first saying there's someone here, and then
the assailants saying, I don't worry. I've come to help you.
That's in the police documents. I think that's arguably one
of the most chilling parts of this entire night, the
suspect approaching Xana and saying, don't worry, I've come to
(20:26):
help you. I think that shows his maliciousness, his total
commitment UH to the crime and to taking this victim
and to making sure that anyone who encounters him is
not going to live.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
You go into each of the victim's backgrounds painstakingly, and
Xanna just an upsetting background as a child, Both of
her parents have been in and out of jail. And
what does she do? She survives, She works harder and
(21:04):
harder and harder. She's taken in by her aunt and
she is victorious against all odds. And I am just imagining, imagining.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
Joe Scott Morgan.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
Her lying there in bed with her sweetheart Ethan. And
you know, I think you were with us at some
point at crime Con before last, Joe Scott, when I
finally got to meet Ethan's mom, who is just amazing.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
No, you were not with us.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
But then later when you were speaking, she stood up
and started talking and during your address, and.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
What a woman, the strength that mom had.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
She just just remembering her and what she said to
me at Crime Con still strikes me to this day.
To you, Jo Scott, regarding the evidence, the blood spattered,
the blood trail, the blood transfers, and what Howard Bloom
is saying, I want to merge those because if I
(22:17):
were telling this to a jury, I would have to
I would have to describe what Howard Bloom says about
how Coburger comes into the room and he is confronted
by Ethan to protect his sweetheart Xanna. Ethan is murdered
by a slicing stab to the juggler, and then the killer,
(22:43):
as Ethan crumples to the ground, moves forward to his
next target, Xena Kernodle, and she's afraid, and he says,
don't worry.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
I'm here to help you explain how I can prove
this at trial.
Speaker 6 (23:07):
I think that when you think about progression, we talk
about in forensics a commingling of evidence. And from the
start with this case, and you're you know, you're trying
to tie tie in the timeline, you're going to have
commingled blood evidence that you're going to find at the scene.
And what I mean by that, Nancy, is that the
(23:27):
two victims upstairs, if they were in fact the first
he Coburger, allegedly, would have had blood evidence on him,
and not just on him, but also this weapon. As
he's advancing into the Xana's room, he's already taken Ethan's
life with the slice to the throat. He's going to
advance on her. We know that there's very specific contact
(23:51):
between the perpetrator and Xana. She fought back as well, Nancy.
We have indication that at least through one report, that
she had a defensive wound on her hand that actually
went down to the level of the tendons. That means
that more than likely, more than likely, she probably grabbed
hold of this blade as and then it's withdrawn and
(24:14):
it slices through the palm of her hand. And we
have to think about this scientifically. It's hard to dismiss
the emotion, but you have to think about it as
far as the progression if you want to try to
zero in on this and get an idea as to
the order of these events. I think probably the biggest
thing that this jury is going to see in this
(24:35):
case when they see these crime scene images Nancy, is
that both of these locations, both of these rooms are
going to be bathed in a lot of blood evidence.
The big question is, how did he clear that house
without transferring a bunch of blood evidence to either other
locations in that house or certainly within the confines of
that car. How did he escape that without having blood
(24:58):
all over the place at his apartment for instance, That
remains to be seen.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
You know, Bryan C.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
Stewart joining US veteran trial lawyer, managing partner at Parker
and Maconcole. He practices in this jurisdiction Idaho and Utah.
You know, the defense is really going to have a
heck of a time because the predatory nature of what
was said to Xanna.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
Think about it.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
Think about it, I would lay it out for a
jury just as I believe it happened. Coburger walks into
that dark room, Ethan jumps up from the bed. He
approaches Coburger to protect his sweetheart, xanaker Noodle, who's still
lying in the bed. He's immediately sliced across a jugular
(25:50):
and falls to his death.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
Right here.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
He then advances on Xanna, whose line in bed, and
he says the deceiving words, don't worry, I'm here to
help you, before he murders her. He is well within
(26:17):
his wits, he is prepossessed of mind, and he has
a wherewithal to lie and deceive Xanna. The predatory nature
of his advancing silently towards Xanna Kernodle is bone chilling.
Speaker 8 (26:41):
I think the evidence clearly shows that he was clear
minded and intentional about everything that he did that night.
And you know, while we have to prove mensrea or
a mental component in order to get a conviction that
doesn't necessarily include the motive.
Speaker 6 (26:58):
Or motivation for why he did the crimes.
Speaker 8 (27:01):
The mensraa would would mean that they have to prove
that he intended the actions that he did, which he
clearly did, and then that he intended to take those lives.
And it's impossible from the evidence that's available to say
that he didn't intend to stab them, that he didn't
intend to take their lives, and it and it should
(27:23):
be chilling, bone chilling, and to understand the ruthlessness of
his of his actions.
Speaker 6 (27:30):
How you know it?
Speaker 4 (27:30):
How y'all do it today?
Speaker 7 (27:33):
Good? Good?
Speaker 4 (27:34):
Take look your driver's lines and real quick if I could.
Speaker 5 (27:37):
So, he's right up on that man.
Speaker 9 (27:39):
Man, you right up on the back end of that man,
old job for tailgating? Is this your car?
Speaker 4 (27:48):
Okay? Cool?
Speaker 9 (27:49):
Where are you headed?
Speaker 4 (27:51):
Well? Were coming from w R s U.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
Where are you headed? He later says, we're going for
thie food? And the dad's like what you were seeing?
Bodycam video when a Hancock County, Indiana Sheriffes Department bodycam
when they pull them over and ask to see.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
Coburger's driver's license.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
Now, it was arguing back and forth, and I claimed
vehemently that this was no coincidence because there were two
pullovers by local l E law enforcement in one trip home.
When does that happen? How often do you get pulled over?
I rarely get pulled over. So you get pulled over
(28:41):
twice and you never even get a ticket. Oh no,
that's stunt to high heaven with me right now. Howard Bloom,
author of a brand new book, When the Night Comes
Falling a requiem for the Ito student murders, which is amazing,
and in his book he outlined how these two pullovers
(29:03):
nearly costs the FBI their investigation, or so they thought.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
Take a listen to more of the pullover.
Speaker 4 (29:12):
What's w s U? Yeah, what's very oppos that is
wat's Maria?
Speaker 6 (29:24):
Sure?
Speaker 4 (29:25):
Okay, I have a hard time period because of the traffic.
Speaker 5 (29:28):
So you're coming from Washington State University and you're going
where oh wouldn't be going.
Speaker 4 (29:36):
Back to day Okay, yeah, we're a little lightly much.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
How to Howard Bloom, I'm gonna circle back to the
fact that unasked, he starts talking about SWAT teams swarming
the area.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
Methink thou dost protest too much?
Speaker 1 (29:55):
In the immortal words of William Shakespeare, nobody asked, nobody asked.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
Yet he's dead.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
He's just regurgitating, vomiting the information.
Speaker 2 (30:05):
When nobody asked.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
But I want to circle back to the so called
hat Box operation that you described so well in your
book When the Night Comes Falling? Explain and why did
the FBI, who absolutely was following Coburger as he and
his dad across the country.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
Thought that their entire operation may go up in flames.
Speaker 5 (30:28):
Well, as you point out, the FBI decided that Coburger
was a person of interest. They decided this earlier, before
they even told the Moscow Task Force. They kept this
to themselves for either one of two reasons. The first
reason was that it was the identification was based on
the genealogy genetics investigative genetic genealogy, and.
Speaker 4 (30:52):
They thought that wouldn't hold up in court.
Speaker 5 (30:55):
Or a much more cynical explanation would be that the
FBI I didn't want to share the credit for Coburg's
arrest with anyone else.
Speaker 4 (31:04):
So they go off and follow him.
Speaker 5 (31:07):
And they have cars, they have a plane in the
air that's following his route. And suddenly they see Coburger
being stopped and they don't know what's going on, and
they don't know what to do. Had a they think
a local cop, a local sheriff had seen the be
on the lookout for notice and swooped in on this Hondai,
(31:28):
a Lantra, or they're also wondering how is Coburger going
to react he is a suspect in a quadruple homicide.
Is he going to get on the put his foot
on the accelerator and tear out, or perhaps he's going
to shoot anything as possible of the officer who's coming
(31:48):
in to give him this traffic ticket. The FBI decides
to stand back and see what happens. To their great relief,
Coburger is allowed to go through, and they figure, well, this.
Speaker 4 (32:00):
Is just a traffic stop of some kind. Been nine
minutes later.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
It's almost laughable, Howard, because that the FBI actually has
a bird in the air watching. They see one pullover
by the Hancock Kenny Sheriffs, and Coburger goes on his way.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
And then there's another pullover.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
Don't you know they're like, what is happening down there?
Why are they pulling over our quadruple murders suspect. I'm
sure they were just and they couldn't say anything. And
they're watching from a bird, right.
Speaker 4 (32:38):
Yes, they have assess and they're flying overhead.
Speaker 5 (32:41):
You know, it's a hawk waiting to swoop down in
case anything happens in effect, and they've been building this
case for six weeks and they're finally getting closer, and
they think the whole case is going to be blown
apart before they've connected all the dots, and they are
filled with a sense of panic.
Speaker 4 (32:58):
But discipline, how.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
They were right and this is no offense to Indiana
at all.
Speaker 2 (33:04):
But I understand where.
Speaker 1 (33:06):
The FBI is coming from, and you know how much
I hate the FEDS. But that said Chris mcdunn ad
joining me, Director Cole Case Foundation, former homicide detective and
star of The Interview Room on YouTube. Chris, if they
had stopped Coburger and he nutted up and they arrested
him or sped off, anything could have happened. Because we
(33:28):
can't We can't predict what Coburger is going to do.
Just like his father, he had no idea what his
son might do. We would never have gotten the evidence
that we got. When they finally got home to the
Pocono area, remember they were surveilled. They went in finally
or in the early morning hours. They catch him, I think,
in his shorts or underwear, wearing plastic gloves and separating
(33:51):
his trash from everybody else's trash and they see him
go throwing trash in the neighbor's receptacle.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
None of them.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
That would have happened if local authorities had to arrested
Coburger for a traffic violation, or if Coburger spun out
and brought about his own arrest. So I understand why
they were worried.
Speaker 9 (34:15):
Yeah, and absolutely, and not only that. If you remember,
this officer is leaning in, so if he would have
seen anything in plane view, you know what Doc Morgan
was talking about, you know, any blood transfer or anything
like that, Well, the clock starts ticking right then and there.
If this officer starts diving into this traffic stop, that
(34:35):
you may have this fugitive Task Force surveillance team you know,
overhead and behind him going hey, what the heck is
going on here? So, and quite frankly, I hate to
say it, but I've seen this as well as many others,
numerous at times where you know, this thing could have
gone south really fast. But fortunately they cut him loose
(34:57):
and they were able to connect those dots.
Speaker 4 (34:59):
Later on h M.
Speaker 2 (35:07):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 4 (35:14):
And what did you say about some swat team thing? Yes,
there was, Yeah, there was a NASS shooting you know where,
that was good. Interesting, it's horrifying.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
These I want to tell you'll talk about volunteering. That's
Coburger talking about the swat team as it related to
a different homicide.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
But as you can see, he's.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
Going on and on and on about murders and swat
teams that he wasn't asked about.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
And let's listen to more. Listen to the body cam.
Speaker 4 (36:01):
So sure y'all work at the university here?
Speaker 7 (36:04):
Actually the.
Speaker 2 (36:08):
Huge okay, okay.
Speaker 9 (36:17):
Yeah, I hadn't heard about that incident just yesterday or.
Speaker 7 (36:23):
About an hour, and yet all was still wrapping up.
Speaker 4 (36:27):
I want not show this tutions if they could shoot
somebody as they and then you don't know about that actuating.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
It's really hard to hear it.
Speaker 1 (36:37):
Remember that bodycam that Ellie is wearing on their shoulder,
and you hear the deputy saying interesting, interesting, and you
hear Coburger's father, Michael say, well, it's horrifying. So Coburger
knew very well how his father would view a murder,
much less a quadruple murder.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
So whild the FBI and their bird in the air of.
Speaker 1 (37:03):
The helicopter at SASNA is watching two times police pull
over Coburger in route home. Howard Bloom in his book
When the Night Comes Falling, describes a quote hat box operation.
Only if you're in law enforcement, would you know what
that means? What does that mean? And what is it?
Speaker 2 (37:22):
How does it relate to Coburger?
Speaker 5 (37:24):
The hat box operation goes back to the days of
the g men, when the FBI used to wear fedoras
and they would trail people on the street. They'd have
the fedoras over their brill cream hat. Well, their surveillance
techniques have changed. They now have cars, unmarked cars, planes,
and even electronic devices. But the term stays. It means
(37:45):
you're going to follow this guy. It's a complete operation.
You're not going to lose sight of him. The irony
is the FBI loses Coburger for a while. They don't
pick him up till a couple of hours later because
he's taken a different route than the one they expected,
and they pick him up through a license plate reader
in Loma, Colorado, and then they stay on him.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
And it really befuddles me.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
Why in the last minute, after all of his father's
research about the best route home, it was a long drive.
He Coburger comes up with a very roundabout circuitous route home.
It takes hours longer than necessary, and his father is
so walking on eggshields around his son Coburger. Then he goes, Okay,
(38:31):
you're the boss, Fine, we'll go your way, even though
it made no sense and that was not the route
the FBI was expecting and they lose.
Speaker 2 (38:39):
Coburger reminds me of the securitiest route.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
I believe he took the night after the murders to
get back home. Oh my stars, we've got all the
digital evidence to get to the turning the phone off,
the turning the phone on, the cell phone towers. And
it's really interesting speaking of that, Howard, into your book,
you talk about out a pitch that Coburger makes to
(39:05):
the local PD trying to get a job an internship,
and you quote what he says in his pitch, and
I found it really interesting how he would help rural
police departments better analyze sell and digital data to incorporate
(39:26):
it into cases and prosecutions, which tells me, of course,
he didn't get the job, by the way, but it
tells me how intricately familiar he is with digital evidence
and supports the theory that he intentionally turned off his
(39:48):
phone when he left the King Road address and when
he went into the King Road address.
Speaker 2 (39:53):
Yes, no, very much so.
Speaker 5 (39:56):
Also that short note he writes reflects his arrogance, his
sort of condescending attitude. Is he the criminology doctoral candidate,
he knows more than the local police. The irony is
that within months that would be used against him, the
evidence that they had compiled from cell phones and cell
phone towered data.
Speaker 1 (40:18):
Howard you reveal a receipt that was found regarding a
purchase of a uniform at Walmart.
Speaker 2 (40:28):
How does that play into this investigation?
Speaker 5 (40:30):
Well, Coberger has a blue Dicky's work uniform, a work
out that a one piece sort of body suit that
he bought, and police are now theorizing that he wore
that suit on the night of the killings. That's how
he was able to escape without any bloodstains on his
car whatever. Before he got into the car, he removed
(40:52):
the suit put it into a plastic bag garbage bag,
they theorize, and that it also explains that long route
home that that you've mentioned previously. He found a place
to dispose of this Dickie's worksuit that was covered in blood,
and also the murder weapon you refer.
Speaker 1 (41:09):
To a Dicky's work suit. I believe it was purchased
at Walmart, and that would explain not only why his
clothes were not covered in blood, but the Dickie's work suit,
I think is a jumper that you put on over
your clothes if you wish, and that was never recovered.
But to the receipt. Did the receipt reveal when the
(41:32):
uniform was purchased.
Speaker 5 (41:34):
It was purchased at the best I've been able to ascertain.
I'm sure they have the exact date. I was it
was purchased within a month of the murders. That's what
I was told. I don't have the exact date.
Speaker 2 (41:45):
So not any time that he was working in systems.
Speaker 1 (41:51):
Remember he had a job where he was kind of
like a repair guy way back when this suit, this
Dickie's work suit, was purchased just before the murders. And
another thing, you go into great detail about the complaints
filed against him at Washington State University by female students,
(42:12):
and it went on and on and on. It wasn't
an overnight thing. The faculty, the administration there went to
great pains to document what was stated and to give
him a chance to explain it. But you describe Howard
the whole way home, how Coburger was seething about what
(42:35):
had been said about him by these female students, and
more important, how he was going to beat the rap
and how they could not fire him.
Speaker 2 (42:45):
He was going to fight back.
Speaker 1 (42:47):
Little did he know they had already sent an email
telling him it's over, or sent him a letter telling
him it was all over. But that seething that you
describing your book was riveting.
Speaker 5 (43:01):
Yes, when he takes this trip across country with his father,
he's filled with rage. At the same time, I believe
he thought he was going to be able to return
to Washington State after the Christmas break and he would
start teaching again. He thought if there were charges up
against him, he could talk his way out of it.
Speaker 4 (43:20):
That's what he kept on telling his father. I can
beat this. They can fire me without my having a hearing,
and I can act.
Speaker 5 (43:26):
In my own as my own defense attorney, and I
can convince them that I should not be fired.
Speaker 4 (43:33):
He needed this job. This job, this teaching.
Speaker 5 (43:36):
Assistant, paid for his twenty nine thousand dollars a year
or so tuition and board.
Speaker 1 (43:41):
You know, I looked at your sources at the end
of your book, and I don't see the sources for
what was said in that car, his seething anger about
these women. How dare they complain about him? Are you
keeping many of your sources secret?
Speaker 5 (44:00):
Well, I've made arrangements with the people I spoke to
that I cannot reveal their names. What I did do
is pretty much why I started into This is what
the FBI did. They built a family tree, genetic clusters,
and so they worked their way to Brian Coburger. I
did the reverse. I went after the relatives of people
(44:23):
who were related to the Coburger family. I kept on
knocking on doors, reaching out to them until I got
some of them who were in conversations with the Coburgers
to talk to me. And that was my primary sources. Also,
there were people in the town who had also spoken
to them, in the whole Strausburg al Brightesville area of Pennsylvania.
Speaker 1 (44:46):
In his book, Howard Bloom describes at the very beginning
the austere room where the murder case was worked at
police headquarters, and he said, as law enforcement divided their facts,
marshaled their evidence into two categories empirical and rhetorical.
Speaker 2 (45:09):
Empirical the hard evidence. Rhetorical the why.
Speaker 1 (45:16):
And that's what we are doing tonight again, Howard Bloom,
Thank you for your book and for joining us again
to part two of the analysis. And we barely scratch
the surface the analysis of what you have learned about
the Coburger investigation. Thank you to our other expert witnesses,
(45:38):
but especially to you for joining us as we seek
justice in our own way. Nancy Gray signing off, good
night friend,
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, New and very disturbing details
emerging surrounding the Brian Coberger quadruple murder case. Good evening,
I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for
being with us.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
What happened the fateful night of the University of Idaho
for murders. New theories revealed in a special episode with
author Howard.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
Bloom, Thank you for being with us with us, Author
Howard Bloom has just come out with an incredible book
full chock full of not only theories, but facts supporting
the theory supporting the hypothesis of the prosecution that Brian
Coberg in fact murdered for young University Idaho students. Howard Bloom,
(00:56):
you describe in depth what happens with the two surviving roommates,
Dylan and Bethany.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
Listen in the early morning hours between four am and
four thirty am, Dylan Mortensen says she calls out to
her friends, who she thinks her being too loud. After
hearing more loud noises, Mortenson again tells her roommates to
calm down, she's trying to sleep. She turns and locks
their door, hearing loud noises again. Mortensen opens the door
and sees Brian Coberger allegedly and believing him to be
(01:26):
a partygoer who is leaving, says nothing, shuts and locks
her door again.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
The girl that lived, According to prosecutors, Brian Coburger went
into the home on King Road with a mission to
commit the perfect murder. Could he actually commit mass murder
and not leave a trace behind? And what about the
(01:54):
two that lived? Dylan Mortenson and Bethany Funk.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Listen.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
Dylan Mortenson and Bethany Funk are both home while their
friends are murdered upstairs and are left unharmed. Sources tell
ABC News and author Howard Bloom that Mortenson and Funk
were using their cell phones to communicate before, during, and
after the murders. Many have wondered, since Mortenson and Funk
were both in the home and on their cell phones
(02:19):
when the murders are taking place, why is there an
eight hour delay before police are called in? Why were
other friends called before police?
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Howard Bloom joining us with an all star panel, and guys,
remember we're not having high tea at Windsor Castle. Jump
in with your own theories and questions. The state could
use them.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Howard Bloom.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
I'm curious as well, and you devote a lot of
time to this in your book when the night comes
falling about the delay on Dylan Mortenson's part, she actually
sees the killer leaving the home. There is a serious delay,
and during that time a lot of evidence could and
(03:04):
most likely was lost. Question to you. You described the
police grappling with that's seven to eight hour delay.
Speaker 4 (03:16):
Describe that the police are dumbfounded.
Speaker 5 (03:20):
They can't understand how this girl could see a killer
in the house and do nothing about it. Her behavior
is irrational, and I think though ultimately the police and
I have concluded that a rational explanation is impossible. I
think she was locked in a state of terror. I
(03:42):
also believe Coberger has he descended and passed her on
his way out of the house, was locked in his
own state of mania. He was surrounded by his own
armory of hate, if you will. If Dylan had spoken out,
if she had tried to penetrate the moment that he
was locked in, I think she would have died. I
(04:04):
think she would have become another victim her terror. Her
silence saved her life.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
You know, I haven't really thought about it in the
way that you just stated it, which is chilling. Just
Scott Morgan joining me, Professor forensics, Jacksonville State University, author
of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, and star of
a hit series body Bags podcast. We've gone round and
round about Dylan Mortenson, more so than Bethany because Bethany,
(04:35):
while there, did not see the perpetrator leaving. That's why
more focus has been on Dylan Mortenson. What do you
make of what Howard Bloom just said. I agree with him.
If she had uttered a sound, she would be dead
right now.
Speaker 6 (04:53):
I agree. Here's here's my perspective. I think that there's
an element this where Coburger, if he did in fact
commit these crimes, was in such an exhausted state he
has tunnel vision at this point in time, He's trying
to clear himself of the scene. Think about all of
(05:14):
the energy that he has expended at this point in time,
starting on that top floor where there's just a slaughter
that has taken place allegedly at his own hands, and
then to be surprised by the other two residents on
this floor, with Zana and Ethan, he has to encounter
(05:34):
them and make his way past them. I don't know
that people, and I hope people never do understand the
amount of energy that would go in to try to
commit this kind of heinous crime, and so he's locked in.
I think that probably if she had in fact spoken,
she would have just become an obstacle to him that
he's trying to defeat to make his way to that
(05:57):
door so he can get out and get in that car.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
And leave much the way.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
According to Howard Bloom, Kelley Gonsolvis became let me just
see an impediment because of the ferocity of the attack
on Kelly Gonsolvis, and her father said that he believed
Kelly was the target. Now Bloom is saying Maddie was
(06:23):
the target and Kelly was in the way, So that
supports what you're saying. But I want to follow up
with doctor Angela Arnold. I want you to hear this,
Howard Bloom and Brian Stewart, you often have to go
to state of mind as a trial lawyer. Doctor Angela
(06:44):
Arnold is with US renowned psychiatrist out of the Atlanta jurisdiction.
You can find her at angela Arnold MD dot com.
Doctor Angie, let's analyze what we've just heard, how or
could I use that at trial to explained to this
jury why Dylan Mortenson did nothing. Now I have defended
(07:06):
Dylan Mortenson from the get go. Dylan Mortenson is a
crime victim. Let's not forget that before everybody heaps on
what she did wrong.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
Okay, she did nothing wrong.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
She had been out, like many, many thousands of vandals,
that's the college mascot, drinking and having a good time.
There was a football game that weekend. She comes home,
it's really late, at nine, around four am.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
She's been partying.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
She hears a noise, she hears the dog, she hears
her roommates saying something, and she gets up in that
state of mind, How does she know who he was?
That he was a killer. How does she know he
wasn't just someone visiting and leaving. People were ordering food,
(08:01):
people were going to sleep. They've been partying all night long.
It's four in the morning.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Is that why she.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Didn't call nine one one? Now the crux the rub
is going to be what's in the cell phone communications
between Bethany and Dylan. But can you think of, as
a psychiatrist, a rational explanation as to why Dylan did
not call nine one one.
Speaker 7 (08:29):
Yes, I can, Nancy, because these are let's just remember,
these are kids that are in college. They're partying. It's
close to the end of the semester. Would anyone in
their right mind think, oh my god, there's a killer
in the house and my friends have been killed. I
am sure that didn't even enter their minds. There was noise.
(08:53):
Apparently there was always a lot of coming and going
from this house because they're just kids in college having
a good time, right, that was the culture there. So
she did nothing wrong. I have a feeling that with
all of the communication back and forth and everything, she
had no idea who he was. He wasn't She didn't
(09:16):
recognize him. He was just somebody walking through the house.
And she was probably a little bit scared because of
the noise that she had heard.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
She was a little bit of shocked. I don't know.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
I don't know about her being scared, because if she
was scared, she would have called nine one one.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
I think she was a little bit drunk.
Speaker 7 (09:37):
And maybe she was, Nancy, And so if she was,
it's not like she was out driving and drinking. She
was in her home, Hey hey, hey, and drink slow down, sleeping.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
It off, Slow down, Nellie, you're preaching to the choir
right now.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
I'm on Dylan's side on this crime stories with Nancy Grace.
Back to Howard Bloom.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
Yes, I can explain away why she didn't call nine
one one, But what do we know about her communications
with Bethany during that time the other roommate. Does it
prove she did know an attack was occurring, or does
it prove the contrary You.
Speaker 5 (10:31):
Are raising One of the great mysteries of this case.
All I have been able to find out is that
testimony about those texts were given to the grand jury.
The grand jury heard about it, the grand jury reviewed
some of those texts.
Speaker 4 (10:49):
What they said. I'd be.
Speaker 5 (10:52):
Dishonest if I said I knew. My feeling is, though,
that Dylan and Bethany are both victims. Their lives are
changed forever by these events, and you know, we keep
on looking for a rational explanation for Dylan's behavior.
Speaker 4 (11:11):
It wasn't irrational night.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
I think I know something, I think I can do something,
Howard Bloom, and I may be very be proving very
wrong come trial time. But let me go to a
trial strategist on this.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
Brian C.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
Stewart veteran trial lawyer who is joining us from this
jurisdiction in Idaho.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
He practices there in Utah.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
Brian, you've tried a lot of cases, and if you
want to win a case, you marshal your evidence. You
have a plan what you're going I recall when I
would write out yes, I would write out every question
verbatim for every witness. Of course, you know you have
(11:53):
a plan when you go into a fight, but when
you get a punch in the nose, the plan goes
to hey, right, so you have a plan. Let's think
about these communications, the communications between Dylan and Bethany.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
We know they were communicating by phone.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
Thanks to Howard Bloom, we now know those were not
phone calls, they were texts. Those texts were given to
the grand jury who indicted Coburger.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
Think this through.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
I have a strong suspicion, a deduction that those texts
were about.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
What is the noise? Did you hear the dog?
Speaker 1 (12:35):
What's going on? Are they still awake? Blah blah blah,
Because Brian C. Stewart, if those texts were about, oh
my star, somebody's in the house. Did you hear a scream?
I thought I heard a fight and text to that genre.
(12:55):
I believe those texts would have been used as establishing
a timeline. We would have heard about the nature of
those texts if they were probative.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
In other words, if they proved anything.
Speaker 4 (13:09):
I think that's right.
Speaker 8 (13:10):
We would have heard more about them. They would have
given us more information about what the girls experienced during
that period. But to me, the fact that they were
locked inside their rooms and sending texts rather than talking
or going to find each other tells me that they
were still in fear and didn't believe they Wait.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
A minute, Brian, I don't know if you know that.
My ninety two year old mother lives with us, and
my husband just gave me the greatest gift ever. I
don't like jewelry, fancy cars, or clothes. Don't even say fur.
He gave me I Granny cam.
Speaker 4 (13:51):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
I can see what Granny is doing at night. Has
she fallen on the floor? Is she wandering around aimlessly?
Speaker 1 (14:00):
Do I need to go get out of bed at
three am and go check on her like I did
the first eight years she lived with us. How easy
is it to text? Why do you want to get
up when you're wearing nothing? But a T shirt. Go
out in the hall, knock on your roommate's.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
Door and go, hey, wake up.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
I've got a question. What's going on up there? Technical term?
I don't know if you've got it in Idaho and Utah. Bs.
Of course they're texting. I text back and.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
Forth with the twins. We're in there there in the.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
Back of the house, right, that's not I don't find
that disturbing at all at all, Brian, I don't either.
Speaker 8 (14:37):
But if they had heard some struggle, if they had
heard any screaming, it would make entire sense to me
that they would lay low and be paralyzed by fear
during those hours.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
Okay, Chris mcdonnah joining me, Director Cold Case Foundation, former
homicide detective, star of the Interview Room on YouTube where
I found him, Chris mcdona, haven't we both agreed that
these two roommates, Dylan and Bethany, they were the lowman
(15:07):
on the totem.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
Pole in that they got the bottom of bedrooms and.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
The house looks very different from the front than it
does on the side than it does from the back.
In the front of the house, Chris McDonough as Howard
bloom So vividly lays out in his book, whoever has
to live down there, you can't keep the light out,
even if you use darkened curtains. Every time a car
(15:37):
pulls up in that driveway, that parking area, and a
lot of people do because.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
It's a very steep and narrow road.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
It's one of the only places to turn around and
go back down the descent of the hill. This house
is near the top of a hill and people are
turning around and pulling in. It's a party house. Every
house around is a party house. Constant traffic. So the
lowman on the tone pole gets these two bedrooms, and
(16:09):
that would be Dylan and Bethany air Ago. Therefore, Chris mcdonnaugh,
they keep their doors locked and their curtains pulled almost.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
All the time.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
That is an entry point to get to the other floors.
So people visiting the second third floor residents often come
through that door. So they keep their doors locked, Chris
mcdona and their curtains closed. And that's why, and Bloom
lays it out in his book, that's why the doors
were locked.
Speaker 9 (16:41):
Yeah, absolutely, you're correct, Nancy. I would agree with you
that you know the point of entry. Would you know,
for an individual like this who has taken so much
time to you know, plan this out, potentially to come
through that front door, you know, just doesn't make sense.
The back point of entry would make much more sense,
(17:04):
which also brings us to you know, the communication thought processing.
If I can comment on that for a moment. You know, today,
you know, these this generation just communicates via text. Remember,
up until four o'clock four am, they're still getting people
(17:25):
knocking on that door, i e. The food delivery, et cetera.
So it wouldn't surprise me one iota if at some
point when these texts are revealed that they're communicating with
each other, they're trying to communicate with their roommates, and
quite frankly, when it goes quiet and coburger comes down
those stairs, they may have even been thinking the party's over,
(17:46):
this is the last guy out, and they may have
even gone back to bed, and so that end of itself,
the fear factor could play into this, or quite frankly,
like you mentioned earlier, maybe there's an alcohol on board
and they're just exhausted. They're just they're just college students.
They're going back to sleep, and that would account.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
For the delay and much has been made to the
fact that Coburger was wearing a mask. Why would she
have not been suspicious of that? Do I have to
say COVID?
Speaker 4 (18:16):
Yeah?
Speaker 9 (18:17):
Absolutely, and that and that does you know play play
into this?
Speaker 2 (18:21):
Now?
Speaker 1 (18:21):
Early on we heard Killi Gorinsavis's parents speaking out stating
she was the target. And I understand that because her
wounds were so much.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
More heinous than Maddie's.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
But according to this new Bombshield theory, Maddie was in
fact the target. Also, we are learning from Horod Bloom's
new book, When the Night Comes Falling, that there is
blood evidence that Ethan Chapin jumped up and confronted Brian
(18:58):
Coburger to protect his sweetheart Xenna. Kernodle to Howard Bloom,
I know that you have researched this so much that
it may have become you know, sop to you, but
to us, the revelations that you make in your book
are let me just say, illuminating. Tell me the facts
(19:23):
that support your theory that Ethan was stabbed as he
was trying to protect Xenna, and that after he attacked Ethan,
he goes and says, don't worry, I'm here to help
you to Xena and then kills her.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
What facts support your theory.
Speaker 5 (19:42):
Ethan coming up to confront Coburger is with testimony that
was made to the grand jury. There's also evidence in
the coroner's report that was shared at the grand jury
that he was killed with a one massive cut to
his neck that caught his jugular vein. Has to Xana
(20:04):
speaking out, UH, first saying there's someone here, and then
the assailants saying, I don't worry. I've come to help you.
That's in the police documents. I think that's arguably one
of the most chilling parts of this entire night, the
suspect approaching Xana and saying, don't worry, I've come to
(20:26):
help you. I think that shows his maliciousness, his total
commitment UH to the crime and to taking this victim
and to making sure that anyone who encounters him is
not going to live.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
You go into each of the victim's backgrounds painstakingly, and
Xanna just an upsetting background as a child, Both of
her parents have been in and out of jail. And
what does she do? She survives, She works harder and
(21:04):
harder and harder. She's taken in by her aunt and
she is victorious against all odds. And I am just imagining, imagining.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
Joe Scott Morgan.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
Her lying there in bed with her sweetheart Ethan. And
you know, I think you were with us at some
point at crime Con before last, Joe Scott, when I
finally got to meet Ethan's mom, who is just amazing.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
No, you were not with us.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
But then later when you were speaking, she stood up
and started talking and during your address, and.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
What a woman, the strength that mom had.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
She just just remembering her and what she said to
me at Crime Con still strikes me to this day.
To you, Jo Scott, regarding the evidence, the blood spattered,
the blood trail, the blood transfers, and what Howard Bloom
is saying, I want to merge those because if I
(22:17):
were telling this to a jury, I would have to
I would have to describe what Howard Bloom says about
how Coburger comes into the room and he is confronted
by Ethan to protect his sweetheart Xanna. Ethan is murdered
by a slicing stab to the juggler, and then the killer,
(22:43):
as Ethan crumples to the ground, moves forward to his
next target, Xena Kernodle, and she's afraid, and he says,
don't worry.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
I'm here to help you explain how I can prove
this at trial.
Speaker 6 (23:07):
I think that when you think about progression, we talk
about in forensics a commingling of evidence. And from the
start with this case, and you're you know, you're trying
to tie tie in the timeline, you're going to have
commingled blood evidence that you're going to find at the scene.
And what I mean by that, Nancy, is that the
(23:27):
two victims upstairs, if they were in fact the first
he Coburger, allegedly, would have had blood evidence on him,
and not just on him, but also this weapon. As
he's advancing into the Xana's room, he's already taken Ethan's
life with the slice to the throat. He's going to
advance on her. We know that there's very specific contact
(23:51):
between the perpetrator and Xana. She fought back as well, Nancy.
We have indication that at least through one report, that
she had a defensive wound on her hand that actually
went down to the level of the tendons. That means
that more than likely, more than likely, she probably grabbed
hold of this blade as and then it's withdrawn and
(24:14):
it slices through the palm of her hand. And we
have to think about this scientifically. It's hard to dismiss
the emotion, but you have to think about it as
far as the progression if you want to try to
zero in on this and get an idea as to
the order of these events. I think probably the biggest
thing that this jury is going to see in this
(24:35):
case when they see these crime scene images Nancy, is
that both of these locations, both of these rooms are
going to be bathed in a lot of blood evidence.
The big question is, how did he clear that house
without transferring a bunch of blood evidence to either other
locations in that house or certainly within the confines of
that car. How did he escape that without having blood
(24:58):
all over the place at his apartment for instance, That
remains to be seen.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
You know, Bryan C.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
Stewart joining US veteran trial lawyer, managing partner at Parker
and Maconcole. He practices in this jurisdiction Idaho and Utah.
You know, the defense is really going to have a
heck of a time because the predatory nature of what
was said to Xanna.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
Think about it.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
Think about it, I would lay it out for a
jury just as I believe it happened. Coburger walks into
that dark room, Ethan jumps up from the bed. He
approaches Coburger to protect his sweetheart, xanaker Noodle, who's still
lying in the bed. He's immediately sliced across a jugular
(25:50):
and falls to his death.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
Right here.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
He then advances on Xanna, whose line in bed, and
he says the deceiving words, don't worry, I'm here to
help you, before he murders her. He is well within
(26:17):
his wits, he is prepossessed of mind, and he has
a wherewithal to lie and deceive Xanna. The predatory nature
of his advancing silently towards Xanna Kernodle is bone chilling.
Speaker 8 (26:41):
I think the evidence clearly shows that he was clear
minded and intentional about everything that he did that night.
And you know, while we have to prove mensrea or
a mental component in order to get a conviction that
doesn't necessarily include the motive.
Speaker 6 (26:58):
Or motivation for why he did the crimes.
Speaker 8 (27:01):
The mensraa would would mean that they have to prove
that he intended the actions that he did, which he
clearly did, and then that he intended to take those lives.
And it's impossible from the evidence that's available to say
that he didn't intend to stab them, that he didn't
intend to take their lives, and it and it should
(27:23):
be chilling, bone chilling, and to understand the ruthlessness of
his of his actions.
Speaker 6 (27:30):
How you know it?
Speaker 4 (27:30):
How y'all do it today?
Speaker 7 (27:33):
Good? Good?
Speaker 4 (27:34):
Take look your driver's lines and real quick if I could.
Speaker 5 (27:37):
So, he's right up on that man.
Speaker 9 (27:39):
Man, you right up on the back end of that man,
old job for tailgating? Is this your car?
Speaker 4 (27:48):
Okay? Cool?
Speaker 9 (27:49):
Where are you headed?
Speaker 4 (27:51):
Well? Were coming from w R s U.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
Where are you headed? He later says, we're going for
thie food? And the dad's like what you were seeing?
Bodycam video when a Hancock County, Indiana Sheriffes Department bodycam
when they pull them over and ask to see.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
Coburger's driver's license.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
Now, it was arguing back and forth, and I claimed
vehemently that this was no coincidence because there were two
pullovers by local l E law enforcement in one trip home.
When does that happen? How often do you get pulled over?
I rarely get pulled over. So you get pulled over
(28:41):
twice and you never even get a ticket. Oh no,
that's stunt to high heaven with me right now. Howard Bloom,
author of a brand new book, When the Night Comes
Falling a requiem for the Ito student murders, which is amazing,
and in his book he outlined how these two pullovers
(29:03):
nearly costs the FBI their investigation, or so they thought.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
Take a listen to more of the pullover.
Speaker 4 (29:12):
What's w s U? Yeah, what's very oppos that is
wat's Maria?
Speaker 6 (29:24):
Sure?
Speaker 4 (29:25):
Okay, I have a hard time period because of the traffic.
Speaker 5 (29:28):
So you're coming from Washington State University and you're going
where oh wouldn't be going.
Speaker 4 (29:36):
Back to day Okay, yeah, we're a little lightly much.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
How to Howard Bloom, I'm gonna circle back to the
fact that unasked, he starts talking about SWAT teams swarming
the area.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
Methink thou dost protest too much?
Speaker 1 (29:55):
In the immortal words of William Shakespeare, nobody asked, nobody asked.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
Yet he's dead.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
He's just regurgitating, vomiting the information.
Speaker 2 (30:05):
When nobody asked.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
But I want to circle back to the so called
hat Box operation that you described so well in your
book When the Night Comes Falling? Explain and why did
the FBI, who absolutely was following Coburger as he and
his dad across the country.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
Thought that their entire operation may go up in flames.
Speaker 5 (30:28):
Well, as you point out, the FBI decided that Coburger
was a person of interest. They decided this earlier, before
they even told the Moscow Task Force. They kept this
to themselves for either one of two reasons. The first
reason was that it was the identification was based on
the genealogy genetics investigative genetic genealogy, and.
Speaker 4 (30:52):
They thought that wouldn't hold up in court.
Speaker 5 (30:55):
Or a much more cynical explanation would be that the
FBI I didn't want to share the credit for Coburg's
arrest with anyone else.
Speaker 4 (31:04):
So they go off and follow him.
Speaker 5 (31:07):
And they have cars, they have a plane in the
air that's following his route. And suddenly they see Coburger
being stopped and they don't know what's going on, and
they don't know what to do. Had a they think
a local cop, a local sheriff had seen the be
on the lookout for notice and swooped in on this Hondai,
(31:28):
a Lantra, or they're also wondering how is Coburger going
to react he is a suspect in a quadruple homicide.
Is he going to get on the put his foot
on the accelerator and tear out, or perhaps he's going
to shoot anything as possible of the officer who's coming
(31:48):
in to give him this traffic ticket. The FBI decides
to stand back and see what happens. To their great relief,
Coburger is allowed to go through, and they figure, well, this.
Speaker 4 (32:00):
Is just a traffic stop of some kind. Been nine
minutes later.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
It's almost laughable, Howard, because that the FBI actually has
a bird in the air watching. They see one pullover
by the Hancock Kenny Sheriffs, and Coburger goes on his way.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
And then there's another pullover.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
Don't you know they're like, what is happening down there?
Why are they pulling over our quadruple murders suspect. I'm
sure they were just and they couldn't say anything. And
they're watching from a bird, right.
Speaker 4 (32:38):
Yes, they have assess and they're flying overhead.
Speaker 5 (32:41):
You know, it's a hawk waiting to swoop down in
case anything happens in effect, and they've been building this
case for six weeks and they're finally getting closer, and
they think the whole case is going to be blown
apart before they've connected all the dots, and they are
filled with a sense of panic.
Speaker 4 (32:58):
But discipline, how.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
They were right and this is no offense to Indiana
at all.
Speaker 2 (33:04):
But I understand where.
Speaker 1 (33:06):
The FBI is coming from, and you know how much
I hate the FEDS. But that said Chris mcdunn ad
joining me, Director Cole Case Foundation, former homicide detective and
star of The Interview Room on YouTube. Chris, if they
had stopped Coburger and he nutted up and they arrested
him or sped off, anything could have happened. Because we
(33:28):
can't We can't predict what Coburger is going to do.
Just like his father, he had no idea what his
son might do. We would never have gotten the evidence
that we got. When they finally got home to the
Pocono area, remember they were surveilled. They went in finally
or in the early morning hours. They catch him, I think,
in his shorts or underwear, wearing plastic gloves and separating
(33:51):
his trash from everybody else's trash and they see him
go throwing trash in the neighbor's receptacle.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
None of them.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
That would have happened if local authorities had to arrested
Coburger for a traffic violation, or if Coburger spun out
and brought about his own arrest. So I understand why
they were worried.
Speaker 9 (34:15):
Yeah, and absolutely, and not only that. If you remember,
this officer is leaning in, so if he would have
seen anything in plane view, you know what Doc Morgan
was talking about, you know, any blood transfer or anything
like that, Well, the clock starts ticking right then and there.
If this officer starts diving into this traffic stop, that
(34:35):
you may have this fugitive Task Force surveillance team you know,
overhead and behind him going hey, what the heck is
going on here? So, and quite frankly, I hate to
say it, but I've seen this as well as many others,
numerous at times where you know, this thing could have
gone south really fast. But fortunately they cut him loose
(34:57):
and they were able to connect those dots.
Speaker 4 (34:59):
Later on h M.
Speaker 2 (35:07):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 4 (35:14):
And what did you say about some swat team thing? Yes,
there was, Yeah, there was a NASS shooting you know where,
that was good. Interesting, it's horrifying.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
These I want to tell you'll talk about volunteering. That's
Coburger talking about the swat team as it related to
a different homicide.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
But as you can see, he's.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
Going on and on and on about murders and swat
teams that he wasn't asked about.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
And let's listen to more. Listen to the body cam.
Speaker 4 (36:01):
So sure y'all work at the university here?
Speaker 7 (36:04):
Actually the.
Speaker 2 (36:08):
Huge okay, okay.
Speaker 9 (36:17):
Yeah, I hadn't heard about that incident just yesterday or.
Speaker 7 (36:23):
About an hour, and yet all was still wrapping up.
Speaker 4 (36:27):
I want not show this tutions if they could shoot
somebody as they and then you don't know about that actuating.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
It's really hard to hear it.
Speaker 1 (36:37):
Remember that bodycam that Ellie is wearing on their shoulder,
and you hear the deputy saying interesting, interesting, and you
hear Coburger's father, Michael say, well, it's horrifying. So Coburger
knew very well how his father would view a murder,
much less a quadruple murder.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
So whild the FBI and their bird in the air of.
Speaker 1 (37:03):
The helicopter at SASNA is watching two times police pull
over Coburger in route home. Howard Bloom in his book
When the Night Comes Falling, describes a quote hat box operation.
Only if you're in law enforcement, would you know what
that means? What does that mean? And what is it?
Speaker 2 (37:22):
How does it relate to Coburger?
Speaker 5 (37:24):
The hat box operation goes back to the days of
the g men, when the FBI used to wear fedoras
and they would trail people on the street. They'd have
the fedoras over their brill cream hat. Well, their surveillance
techniques have changed. They now have cars, unmarked cars, planes,
and even electronic devices. But the term stays. It means
(37:45):
you're going to follow this guy. It's a complete operation.
You're not going to lose sight of him. The irony
is the FBI loses Coburger for a while. They don't
pick him up till a couple of hours later because
he's taken a different route than the one they expected,
and they pick him up through a license plate reader
in Loma, Colorado, and then they stay on him.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
And it really befuddles me.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
Why in the last minute, after all of his father's
research about the best route home, it was a long drive.
He Coburger comes up with a very roundabout circuitous route home.
It takes hours longer than necessary, and his father is
so walking on eggshields around his son Coburger. Then he goes, Okay,
(38:31):
you're the boss, Fine, we'll go your way, even though
it made no sense and that was not the route
the FBI was expecting and they lose.
Speaker 2 (38:39):
Coburger reminds me of the securitiest route.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
I believe he took the night after the murders to
get back home. Oh my stars, we've got all the
digital evidence to get to the turning the phone off,
the turning the phone on, the cell phone towers. And
it's really interesting speaking of that, Howard, into your book,
you talk about out a pitch that Coburger makes to
(39:05):
the local PD trying to get a job an internship,
and you quote what he says in his pitch, and
I found it really interesting how he would help rural
police departments better analyze sell and digital data to incorporate
(39:26):
it into cases and prosecutions, which tells me, of course,
he didn't get the job, by the way, but it
tells me how intricately familiar he is with digital evidence
and supports the theory that he intentionally turned off his
(39:48):
phone when he left the King Road address and when
he went into the King Road address.
Speaker 2 (39:53):
Yes, no, very much so.
Speaker 5 (39:56):
Also that short note he writes reflects his arrogance, his
sort of condescending attitude. Is he the criminology doctoral candidate,
he knows more than the local police. The irony is
that within months that would be used against him, the
evidence that they had compiled from cell phones and cell
phone towered data.
Speaker 1 (40:18):
Howard you reveal a receipt that was found regarding a
purchase of a uniform at Walmart.
Speaker 2 (40:28):
How does that play into this investigation?
Speaker 5 (40:30):
Well, Coberger has a blue Dicky's work uniform, a work
out that a one piece sort of body suit that
he bought, and police are now theorizing that he wore
that suit on the night of the killings. That's how
he was able to escape without any bloodstains on his
car whatever. Before he got into the car, he removed
(40:52):
the suit put it into a plastic bag garbage bag,
they theorize, and that it also explains that long route
home that that you've mentioned previously. He found a place
to dispose of this Dickie's worksuit that was covered in blood,
and also the murder weapon you refer.
Speaker 1 (41:09):
To a Dicky's work suit. I believe it was purchased
at Walmart, and that would explain not only why his
clothes were not covered in blood, but the Dickie's work suit,
I think is a jumper that you put on over
your clothes if you wish, and that was never recovered.
But to the receipt. Did the receipt reveal when the
(41:32):
uniform was purchased.
Speaker 5 (41:34):
It was purchased at the best I've been able to ascertain.
I'm sure they have the exact date. I was it
was purchased within a month of the murders. That's what
I was told. I don't have the exact date.
Speaker 2 (41:45):
So not any time that he was working in systems.
Speaker 1 (41:51):
Remember he had a job where he was kind of
like a repair guy way back when this suit, this
Dickie's work suit, was purchased just before the murders. And
another thing, you go into great detail about the complaints
filed against him at Washington State University by female students,
(42:12):
and it went on and on and on. It wasn't
an overnight thing. The faculty, the administration there went to
great pains to document what was stated and to give
him a chance to explain it. But you describe Howard
the whole way home, how Coburger was seething about what
(42:35):
had been said about him by these female students, and
more important, how he was going to beat the rap
and how they could not fire him.
Speaker 2 (42:45):
He was going to fight back.
Speaker 1 (42:47):
Little did he know they had already sent an email
telling him it's over, or sent him a letter telling
him it was all over. But that seething that you
describing your book was riveting.
Speaker 5 (43:01):
Yes, when he takes this trip across country with his father,
he's filled with rage. At the same time, I believe
he thought he was going to be able to return
to Washington State after the Christmas break and he would
start teaching again. He thought if there were charges up
against him, he could talk his way out of it.
Speaker 4 (43:20):
That's what he kept on telling his father. I can
beat this. They can fire me without my having a hearing,
and I can act.
Speaker 5 (43:26):
In my own as my own defense attorney, and I
can convince them that I should not be fired.
Speaker 4 (43:33):
He needed this job. This job, this teaching.
Speaker 5 (43:36):
Assistant, paid for his twenty nine thousand dollars a year
or so tuition and board.
Speaker 1 (43:41):
You know, I looked at your sources at the end
of your book, and I don't see the sources for
what was said in that car, his seething anger about
these women. How dare they complain about him? Are you
keeping many of your sources secret?
Speaker 5 (44:00):
Well, I've made arrangements with the people I spoke to
that I cannot reveal their names. What I did do
is pretty much why I started into This is what
the FBI did. They built a family tree, genetic clusters,
and so they worked their way to Brian Coburger. I
did the reverse. I went after the relatives of people
(44:23):
who were related to the Coburger family. I kept on
knocking on doors, reaching out to them until I got
some of them who were in conversations with the Coburgers
to talk to me. And that was my primary sources. Also,
there were people in the town who had also spoken
to them, in the whole Strausburg al Brightesville area of Pennsylvania.
Speaker 1 (44:46):
In his book, Howard Bloom describes at the very beginning
the austere room where the murder case was worked at
police headquarters, and he said, as law enforcement divided their facts,
marshaled their evidence into two categories empirical and rhetorical.
Speaker 2 (45:09):
Empirical the hard evidence. Rhetorical the why.
Speaker 1 (45:16):
And that's what we are doing tonight again, Howard Bloom,
Thank you for your book and for joining us again
to part two of the analysis. And we barely scratch
the surface the analysis of what you have learned about
the Coburger investigation. Thank you to our other expert witnesses,
(45:38):
but especially to you for joining us as we seek
justice in our own way. Nancy Gray signing off, good
night friend,
Host
Nancy Grace
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