March 8, 2024 • 44 mins
The parents of a 12-year-old boy think Trails Carolina might be just the place to help their son.
Trails Carolina claims to be a Leader in Wilderness Therapy offering an Adventure Wilderness Program for children who have behavioral and or emotional difficulties. The parents say their boy is transported by two men from New York to Trails Carolina Camp at Lake Toxaway, North Carolina.
Their son arrives at the camp in an agitated state. The 12-year-old is loud and disruptive, but he is assigned to a cabin with other children as well as four adults. In less than 24 hours, the 12-year-old boy from New York is dead. Sheriff Chuck Owenby says an autopsy is being conducted because the death "appeared suspicious" since the boy died at the camp less than 24 hours after he arrived.
A counselor explained to investigators that the boy was required to sleep on the floor inside a sleeping bag. The sleeping bag is inside a small tent called a "BIVY." According to search warrant documents, around midnight the boy started to experience a panic attack.
After the panic attack, a counselor told investigators that the boy was checked on throughout the night starting at 12 a.m., with additional checks on his well-being at 3 a.m. and 6 a.m. At 7:45 a.m., the boy was found dead.
According to the search warrant, when investigators arrived at the scene, CJH was stiff and "cold to the touch." He was lying on his back, his arms were on his chest, and his "knees bent upwards toward the sky."
Also in the search warrant, investigators noted spots of bleeding under the skin, "possible petechiae" in the boy's lips and eyes. This is considered a sign of asphyxiation. The warrant also notes a CPR mask was covering the boy's face and he was not wearing any pants or underwear. His pants and underwear were lying next to his shoulder
Early in the investigation, detectives with the Transylvania County Sheriff's Office attempted to interview other juveniles at Trails Carolina when the boy died. However, camp staff members refused to allow investigators to interview or even see any of the other juveniles.
Trails Carolina says the search warrant contains "misleading statements" saying they won't discuss some details "out of respect for the family and the investigation."
In a statement, Trails Carolina says they did not prevent children from speaking to investigators claiming they asked parents for permission for any children involved to speak with law enforcement and state agencies, and "complied with each parent's preference. as we are required to do." Children were moved to the area to protect them from seeing what was happening, not to avoid investigators.
In response to the recent suspicious death of a 12-year-old at Trails Carolina, North Carolina health officials ordered the removal of all children from the nature therapy program.
Joining Nancy Grace Today:
- Gertie - Victim of sexual assault at Trails Carolina, Survivor of the troubled teen industry, TikTok: @this.is.me.surviving2
- Jenkins Mann, Esq. - Attorney Representing Sexual Assault Victims of Trail Carolina
- Dr. Bethany Marshall – Psychoanalyst (Beverly Hills, CA); Instagram & TikTok: drbethanymarshall; X: @DrBethanyLive
- Eric J. Davis - Private Investigator, Licensed in NC and SC; Retired FBI Supervisory Special Agent, and Partner at Richardson & Davis Investigative Consulting Group, LLC
- Dr. Todd Barr - Board-Certified Anatomic/Clinical/Forensic Pathologist
- Meg Appelgate - Co-founder and CEO of Unsilenced; Victim of the troubled teen industry and advocate for survivors; TikTok and IG: @megappelgate, TikTok and IG: Unsilenced_now
- Nick Ochsner - Executive
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Crime stories with Nancy Grease.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Did you ever go away to camp? I did four
h camp and I got to go between fifth grade
and sixth grade. It was one week. It was the
biggest thing that happened to me in rural Bibb County.
It was very well supervised. I had a great time
and excelled in tree identification. Explain to me why a
(00:40):
twelve year old boy is dead after roughly one day,
not even one day at camp. Now there are reports
this twelve year old little boy had a panic attack. Really, Now,
(01:02):
I'm just a JD. I'm not an MD. But as
far as I know, a panic attack does not result
in frothing at the mouth and death. Now, as we
look into a so called wellness camp in North Carolina,
(01:24):
we find out there have been multiple claims of sex
assault on children. Children. You know, my parents worked so hard.
My mom is a bank teller working her way up
the ladder, my dad working in night shift for the railroad.
They had to work hard just to pay for four
(01:46):
age camp. And I remember it was thirty six dollars
in something since yes, that had to be taken out
of the grocery money. I remember it happening so I
could go to four age camp. You send your children
to camp, and you think you're doing something good for them,
giving them enrichment, making new friends, going for wellness. This
(02:10):
boy is dead and I want answers, not a bunch
of bs about a panic attack. I Nancy Grace, this
is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here
at Crime Stories and on Serious SEXM one eleven. First
of all, what do we know happened? Listen?
Speaker 3 (02:30):
The Transylvania County Sheriff's Office said when they arrived at Trails,
Carolina for an unresponsive participant, medics found evidence that CPR
had been performed, but the child appeared deceased for some time.
But now, in an odd twist of trust, the Wilderness
Therapy comp in North Carolina is refusing to allow investigators
(02:53):
to talk to staff or juvenile's present when the twelve
year old died. According to a search warrant, the boy
suffer to panic attack the night he arrived at the camp,
and the next morning he was found cold, stiff, and
frothing at the mouth, not being able to talk to
staff or campers. It is unclear what caused the boy
(03:13):
to present with frothing from the mouth. According to an
affidavit from the detective that got the search warrant, froth
about the mouth could indicate he ingested some sort of poison.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Guys, I have an all star panel to make sense
of what we're learning right now, including a young woman
who went as a child to Trails Carolina. She's gonna
tell us about her experience. But why all the focus
on the camp now that a little boy is dead?
(03:44):
Oh yeah, I would have to go burn the place
down if something happened to my child after I send
them to camp. But I'm trying to understand something. For
a straight out to Nick Oxenar, executive producer, chief investigator,
reporter wb TV, he has been investigating Trails Carolina since
(04:06):
twenty twenty one. Kind of hate to ask why since
twenty twenty one. I'm sure I'm going to get to that,
But first, Nick Oxer, thank you for being with us.
How is this place build? I know it's a North
Carolina wellness camp. Efforty. Anybody that can't see me, you
can only hear me. Don't worry. I'm doing air quotes
because there's nothing well about this where a twelve year
(04:28):
old boy died. Now we're learning it's more like a
cruel boot camp.
Speaker 4 (04:34):
Well, so this this camp is billed as a wilderness
therapy camp, and so in theory, parents send their children
there to get therapy and you know, address maybe mental
health or behavioral issues. I've interviewed a number of people
who attended this camp over a number of years now,
(04:54):
and one of the last questions I asked every person
who went there is did you get much therapy? And
the best I can tell is this camp provides about
thirty minutes to an hour of therapy about once a week.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
Okay, well, wait, why you know, Nick Oxner? You got
me changing from the fire hunching because every other word
you say, I'm trying to write it down very quickly.
Nick Oxner joining US chief investigative reporter and an EP
at WBTV, curious, why did you start investigating this so
called wellness camp in North Carolina in twenty twenty one?
(05:32):
What led you there in twenty twenty one.
Speaker 4 (05:35):
Yeah, I got a call from a concerned parent who
was looking at sending their child there and started doing
some research and said, we have some questions about this place,
and so it got on my radar, and that I
learned that a child had died at this facility or
in this program back in twenty fourteen, a seventeen year old,
(05:57):
and it piqued my interest even more. And the more
we started talking to folks, the more it was clear
that there was a story here.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
You know, I'm very curious about the teen boy. I
believe you're referring to Alec Lansing. Is that correct?
Speaker 4 (06:09):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (06:10):
So is he the teen boy that left the campground
and somehow ended up in a creek? Yeah, he had
an accident and then landed in the creek. I think
he was climbing a tree and landed in the creek
and he died of hypothermia. Is that is that Alec Lansing?
Speaker 4 (06:26):
That is that Alec Lansing?
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Yeah? I got to be a question about that too,
Nick Oxer, because it takes a minute to die of hypothermia.
You don't just fall into the creek and die. It
takes time. So how long was it that they didn't
notice a teen boy was missing? And how far was
his body found from the camp do you know that?
Speaker 4 (06:51):
Yeah? Well, and that's the thing at the time. That
was another when I started looking into it that made
my eyebrow go up. Right, is that the Sheriff's office
at the time Glancing went missing and was ultimately found dead.
They said, look, had the camp called us as soon
as they knew he was gone and we started a
search right away, we probably would have been able to
(07:11):
find him. Instead, they waited, you know, twelve eighteen hours
before calling nine on long.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
Oh, dear Lord in heaven, that's making me sick to
my stomach because I don't know if you know, Nick Oxen,
but my children just turned sixteen and they are babes
in the woods. They you know, maybe I've kept him
in a bubble too much, but to think this boy,
this teen boy, was out there in that cold creek
(07:39):
water for that long and nobody called the sheriff. Oh yeah,
now I see why you were on the story. Guys.
I want to get back to the twelve year old
that was found cold, I think stiff, which is an
issue for the medical examiner because that would give me
(08:00):
time of death, which is really important in reconstructing what happens.
Is we're not getting any cooperation from the camp, but
I want to go to Gerty. Gerty is a special
guest joining us. Gerty was assaulted. This is her story,
I have no reason to disbelieve it at Trails Carolina.
(08:23):
I also want to go to doctor Bethany Marshall to
explain to me, she's a renown psycho analys joining us
out of La Beverly Hills, what is therapy camp? Because
if these children are getting one hour max. Thirty minutes
to an hour of therapy a week, that doesn't sound
like therapy camp to me. But that said doctor Bethany
(08:46):
before I go to Gerty set it up for me,
Doctor Bethany at doctor Bethany Marshall dot com. What is
therapy camp? Why would you send your twelve year old
boy to therapy camp? I'm not second guessing the parents
because we actually have a friend, doctor Bethany, that sent
(09:08):
their daughter to a therapy camp, not this therapy camp.
It turned her life around, and I'd like to report
she's doing very well her freshman year at college right now.
And we went through a lot with that family. They
went through hell trying to figure out how to help
their daughter, and this one therapy camp they went to
(09:28):
she went to really helped her. But this doesn't sound
anything like that to me.
Speaker 5 (09:35):
You know, Nancy, probably the therapy camp or most likely
called the wilderness camp they sent their daughter to had
a lot of oversight trained clinicians, people coming in and out.
But wilderness camp, which is what this was, is where
parents send their children when all other forms of treatment
(09:56):
have failed. Say they've sent their their children to an
impatient psychiatric facility, to group therapy, to an individual therapist,
to family therapy, and the child is still experiencing profound deficits,
either from learning disorders, psychiatric difficulties, social difficulties.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
Okay, Bethany, I believe we've discussed when you're talking to me,
you need to dummy down. Okay, I'm just a JD.
They didn't teach any of this in law school, either
at Mercery University or when I got my m at NYU.
Nobody said anything about anything. You just said, please tak
regular people taught doctor, Bethany.
Speaker 5 (10:38):
Let's say you have a child with psychological difficulties. Nothing
seems to help. You send them away to a camp
that's in the wild, hoping, as you said earlier, like
your four ahe camp, that they will have loving adults
around them, they will go hiking, and while they're hiking,
they'll be talking to a therapist or sitting by a
(11:00):
lake and then talking to another therapist and processing everything
and they'll come back better. But while your friend had
a great experience at her camp, most of these camps
have no oversight. They are just a group of people
in a profit making setting who take kids for quote
(11:22):
unquote therapy. But often it becomes a culture of abuse.
And Nancy, let me tell you how they get these
kids to the camp. They go and they kid nap them.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
Ooh, Dodger Bethany. I noticed when I was studying the
case that, and Nick Oxtar backed me up. I don't
know if this is correct or not, but two men.
What man took the twelve year old to the camp
all the way from New York to North Carolina? What
man I couldn't get clear on. That is it somebody
envoys that the camp sends to as doctor Bethany says,
(11:59):
take the.
Speaker 4 (12:00):
Yeah, it's a practice called They're referred to as goony
and basically you hire two people to show up in
the middle of the night. And I noticed from talking
to several of the former participants that I've interviewed, these
kids get woken up basically in the middle of the
night by two strangers who you know, basically drag them
out of their house and put them on an airplane
and the next thing you know, you're in the woods
(12:21):
of North Carolina.
Speaker 5 (12:22):
Hey, Nancy, can I say something about that?
Speaker 2 (12:24):
I just yeah, because I want to get to Gertie
real quick.
Speaker 5 (12:27):
Okay, very quickly. I worked with Paris Hilton on her
new show. So this is not privileged material. This is
this is made public that she was kidnapped and taken
to one of these camps, as we all know, and
suffered extreme abuse while in the camp. But she told
me that she's sleeping in the middle of the night.
Two people come in. They're all dressed in that black
(12:49):
They kidnap her. She starts screaming, my parents are going
to find me. My parents are going to find me.
You're going to go to jail. She looks over her
shoulder and her parents are standing in the hall watching
the whole thing play out.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
Okay, I just wish you could see Dr bethany everybody
here in this studio. There's Eli, there's Jamie, there's Sid
and they're all like, and you you just gave me
chills over my whole body.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
Time Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
I want to go to Gerdy now. Gertie, Hey love.
Gertie explains to me that she is a sex assault
victim and the assault occurred at Trails Carolina. I refer
to her as a survivor, a survivor who's telling you
(13:54):
her story, so maybe, just maybe this won't happen to
another child. Gerny, what happened? When we start with who
took you to Trails Carolina?
Speaker 6 (14:06):
I was transported to Trails Carolina by two transporters. They
didn't take me in the middle of the night, but
I had no idea that they were going to be
at my house.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
What happened? Tell me what happened.
Speaker 6 (14:17):
My mom told me that there were two people who
wanted to talk to me, and I went downstairs with
her and they told me that I was going to
a summer camp and that I would be gone for
no more than a week. And then I packed a
bag and got in their car.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
I understand why a lot of parents have difficulty getting
their child to camp, because child, of course doesn't want
to go. Then they'll start screaming and throwing a fit,
maybe physically fighting with the parent. But the scenario that
doctor Bethany Marshall correctly described as has been told by
(15:01):
Paris Hilton, sounds forcible, like a scary kidnap. You're already
what happened? When you got to.
Speaker 6 (15:09):
The transporters handed me off to two new staff and
they brought me to a building where I was strip searched.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
Okay, let me just say right there. Nobody's trip searched
me when I went to four H camp.
Speaker 6 (15:21):
Nobody's strip searched me when I went to a real
summer camp either.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
How did that go down?
Speaker 6 (15:26):
They told me that I had to take my clothes off,
and I didn't know what to think. I was kind
of frozen in shock. I figured, I mean, I'm going
home in a week. I'll call my parents as soon
as this is over. I'll just get it over with.
(15:49):
But then I wasn't allowed to call my parents at
all the entire time I was there, and it wasn't
a week. I was at Trails for three months.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
Were you getting therapy while you were there?
Speaker 6 (16:02):
I met with a therapist once a week, but from
what I experienced with that therapist, I would not call
it legitimate therapy.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
You have described to us that you were sex assaulted.
Speaker 6 (16:16):
What happened one of the other kids in my group
had sexually assaulted two other kids before me, and the
staff and my therapist knew that this had happened, and
they did not separate us from the kid he was
doing this, and I was very scared of this kid.
(16:38):
I told them that I told them that I didn't
feel safe at trails, and they assigned me to sleep
next to her. I don't want to go too far
into detail about it.
Speaker 7 (16:51):
That's unfortunately epidemic, and the conversations we've had with several
multiple trail survivors, I've Gerty's was the second lawsuit I
filed with almost an identical fact patterns the first lawsuit
I filed, which involved my niece, and I've had probably
ten conversations since then with various girls who have had
(17:17):
an experience so similar it's almost eerie.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
You're hearing jenkins Man, high profile lawyer joining us out
of Columbia, South Carolina representing victims of Trail Carolina. It's
jenkins Man and you can find him at man Blake
dot com. So, Jenkins, Gerty and your niece are by
far not the only young girls who have stated they
(17:44):
were sex assaulted at trails Carolina.
Speaker 7 (17:46):
No, absolutely not. And you know, as doctor Bethany said,
and contrasting your four age camp experience with what these
these kids have gone through. I mean, these camps are
designed to humiliate you. What Gerty's not telling you is it?
Not only has she strip searched the moment she gets there,
but she is forced to squat and cough while naked
(18:10):
in front of twenty one year old field staff that
has no counseling training whatsoever. These are just kids who
get a little training on the job there and are
in no way counselors or watching these girls and boys
squat and cough naked, and it just goes from there.
These camps are designed to humiliate you, to break you down,
(18:34):
to take you to your lowest and then in some sick,
perverse way, hoping to build you back up better and stronger,
but again without any real therapy or any real guidance
to do any of that.
Speaker 8 (18:47):
Nancy, if I.
Speaker 5 (18:48):
Can just interject, in a proper psychiatric facility, the initial
session is with a psychiatrist or the child is evaluated psychiatrically.
When they're admitted, every child has their own room, there
are lights in the hallway, Nurses with white uniforms check
all night long. The only time that with the other
kids is while they're doing some recreation or in group therapy.
(19:13):
That's it. And then other professionals are coming in all
the time making notes in their chart. This is such
a deviation from that and such a culture of a.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
Few, and we have only got to the tip of
the iceberg. Remember we're here today about a twelve year
old little boy twelve fifth grade that is dead. Guys,
I want you to take a listen to our friend
Sidney Sumner from crime Online.
Speaker 9 (19:40):
The parents of a twelve year old boy think Trails
Carolina might be just the place to help their son.
Trails Carolina claims to be a leader in wilderness therapy,
offering an adventure wilderness program for children who have behavioral
and or emotional difficulties. The parents say their boy is
transported by two men from New York to Trails Carolina
Camp at Lake Talks Away, North Carolina. Their son arrives
(20:02):
at the camp in an agitated state. The twelve year
old is loud and disruptive, but he is assigned to
a cabin with other children as well as for adults.
In less than twenty four hours, the twelve year old
boy is dead. Sheriff Chuck owenb says an autopsy is
being conducted because the death appeared suspicious since the boy
died at the camp less than twenty four hours after
he arrived.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
And what are we learning about the condition of the
boy's body? Listen.
Speaker 3 (20:29):
Investigators have yet to name the twelve year old that
died at Trails, Carolina, referring to him by the initials
c JH. An unidentified camp counselor told investigators that CJH
was loud and irate when he first arrived at the camp,
and he refused to eat dinner. The boy calmed down
later in the evening and the counselor was able to
(20:51):
provide him with some snacks that the boy ate. The
counselor explained to investigators that the boy was required to
sleep on the floor inside a sleep sleeping bag. The
sleeping bag is inside a small tint called a BIV.
According to search warrant documents, around midnight, the boy started
to experience a panic attack. Two counselors stood nearby while
(21:12):
the boy was experiencing the panic attack, but the counselor
made no mention of anything being done to directly help
the boy through the panic attack.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
No, that's not what I'm talking about. Listen to this.
Speaker 9 (21:24):
After the twelve year old has a panic attack around midnight,
a councillor told investigators that the boy was checked on
throughout the night, starting at twelve am, with additional checks
on his well being at three am and six am.
At seven forty five am, the boy is found dead.
According to the search warrant, when investigators arrived on scene,
CJH was stiff and cold to the touch. He was
(21:45):
lying on his back, his arms were on his chest,
and his knees bent upward towards the sky. Also in
the search warrant, investigators noted spots of bleeding under the skin,
possible petikia in the boy's lips and eyes. The CPR
mask was covering the boy's face, and he was not
wearing pants or underwear. His pants and underwear were lying
next to his shoulder.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
No, No, everything you just heard is wrong. I'm not
saying the facts are not correct. The facts are correct,
but that is not consistent with death by a panic attack. No,
joining me. Doctor Todd Barr Board certified anatomic, clinical and
forensic pathologist. Doctor Barr, help me explain how wrong that
(22:30):
scenario is. It is not compatible at all with a
panic attack, which means airgo. Somebody's lying, which means there's
something nefarious occurring right now. Why lie about it unless
you're covering something up, doctor.
Speaker 8 (22:47):
Barr, Well, yeah, there's a lot of inconsistencies with these reports.
Number one, My biggest concern is that when they state
that they found him cold and stiff, cold and stiff
means that the body's been dead for anywhere between eight
and thirty six hours. You don't get cold and stiff
(23:09):
in an hour. In forty five minutes. If he was
checked on at six am, as it was reported, he
should not be cold and stiff. If he was dead,
he would be flaccid. Riga mortis doesn't set in for
at least two hours after death. Now a caveat is
if you're in a cold environment, that flows the process
(23:29):
down even more so it's an even flower process. And
I would imagine in North Carolina in February, the temperatures
were probably in the forties that night.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
Could you get that for me? Jimmy the timp on
that night, the night that CJH died and at Lake
talks away. Go ahead, doctor, thank you.
Speaker 8 (23:51):
If he was cold and stiff at seven forty five am,
as it was reported then, that means he had to
have been dead at midnight when he was quote unquote
having a panic attack.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
Oh, let me clear something up, Nick Oxner joining us WBTV.
Was he cold and stiff when elle law enforcement got
there or was he cold and stiff when counselors found him?
And how long was the delay if any, when they
called sheriff, because you were telling me about Alec Lansing,
how sheriffs weren't called for at least twelve plus hours?
(24:22):
How long did it take them upon discovery of Cjh's
did body did they call sheriffs?
Speaker 4 (24:28):
Well, that's why I think the detail about Alec Lansing's
staff in the delay is important here, Nancy. We only
know what he was like when he was found by
first responders, where they said rigor Mortis had already said
it was cold and stiff. We don't actually have a
clear understanding of when our clear answer to when he
was actually discovered by camp counselors yet, because again we
(24:50):
have two facts here that don't really square based on
what the doctor is telling us, right, we know that
he was in riga mortis by the time first responders
show up about seven forty five eight am. But we
also have camp counselors saying they checked on him at midnight,
three AM, and six AM. And hopefully what we you know,
get after the investigation is an explanation on how those
(25:11):
two facts can square.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
That is a lie. They don't square. Counselors cannot check
on him and he be alive at six a m.
I believe it was six am they said they checked
on sid and then he be in full rigor and
cold to the touch at seven forty five. That's impossible.
And Nick Oxney, you're telling me that's when LA or
(25:32):
first responders. Law enforcement first responders got there at seven
forty five, which means counselors had to find him before that.
He could not Doctor Todd Barr be in full rigor
in less than an hour and a half if they
checked on him at six There's no way.
Speaker 8 (25:50):
It's just it's physiologically impossible.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Twenty eight degrees, Doc, twenty eight degrees that morning, you know.
Speaker 8 (25:57):
And here's another interesting you know, I don't know what
the frothing is all about. You can get pulmonary edema
from hypothermia from drowning heart.
Speaker 5 (26:08):
Area to go again.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Pulmonary edema, what's that?
Speaker 8 (26:12):
That's when your lung filled up with fluids after you
die and you get frothing of the mouth.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
That's still inconsistent. Doctor. That takes a period of time
for pulmonary edema to occur, number one and two, for
it to go up your throat and come out of
your mouth and nose, that takes additional time. It's not
going to happen in an hour and a half.
Speaker 8 (26:33):
No, you're absolutely right. And when I was preparing for today,
I was reading some of the materials sent to us
and it says one of the staff members reportedly told
detectives that he was cold to the touch and stiff.
So I'm assuming that is one of the camp staff
members that found him dead at seven forty five. So
(26:53):
they're reporting to the detectives they found him cold and
cold to the touch and stiff at seven. It just
doesn't jive.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Somebody is lying. I think I know who. But that
said Eric Davis, joining me out of this jurisdiction, an
expert private investigator, retired FBI special agent. Okay, that says
it all right there, partner at Richardson and Davis Investigative
Consulting Group. That's a mouthful. You can find him at
(27:26):
Richardson and Davis dot com. Eric, thank you for being
with us. Okay, how do I figure out who's lying?
I don't think it's the medical examiner. I don't think
it's the EMTs. They don't have a dog in the fight,
no skin in the game. They arrived and this is
what they found. And I know for a fact that
(27:48):
rigor stiffening of the limbs doesn't happen. And this is
in the light most favorable to the camp. If he
was dead, they check on him at six and he
dies at six one ry which did not happen. He
still wouldn't be in rigor at seven five. That's a lie.
Speaker 8 (28:07):
They found him and he was dead at six oh one.
It would take a minimum of six to eight hours
to get into full riger That would take us into
one or two in the afternoon.
Speaker 2 (28:18):
What about his underwear and his pj's totally off, his
body up around his head.
Speaker 10 (28:23):
That's my question, Nancy, what's going on there? What's he
doing in a BIV tent with no pants on, no underwear,
on all the prior incidents of sexual abuse or at
least alleged sexual abuse. Why is he in this BIV tent?
Zipped up in a BIV tent? That's another question I have.
It's going to make it really hard for the camp
(28:45):
counselors to observe what's going on with and if he
zipped up in a BIV tent, is that some sort
of punishment?
Speaker 8 (28:50):
And why is he a bivy tent.
Speaker 11 (28:51):
We've done a lot of investigations and I have over
sixty experienced surveys filled out, and one of the most
common things that I've heard is something called they called redoing,
and it's when they're wrapped in a tarp so tight
that many of them report that they can't breathe. And
that's the first thing that came to mind for me.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
Guys, you're hearing Meg Applegate. She is co founder and
CEO of Unsilenced, victim of the Trouble Team industry, and
advocate for survivors at unsilenced dot org. Eric, I'm going
to circle back to you, Meg Applegate. This is your
Baileywick jump in.
Speaker 8 (29:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 11 (29:32):
I mean, I've spoke to countless victims and one of
the most common things I'm hearing is this burrito, and
many are reporting that for the first week or so,
they're required to be in this burrito. And they basically
take a tarp, which is mentioned in the report, which
is what triggered me thinking about this, and they are
wrapped up so tight, and then they usually have a
(29:53):
staff member sleep on one side of the tarp, and
the point of this is to ensure they don't try
to run away, and any kind of the movement will
obviously wake up the staff.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
Okay, question, hold on, doctor Bethany Marshall, how does that
help a troubled teen not to be able? You know,
when the twins came home from nick you, the nurses
said he suposed to wrap them really tight, swaddle them,
and they were really not happy with that. I couldn't
stand by to see them swaddled tightly, so I would
(30:23):
immediately unswallow it, unswaddle them. Why would you do that
to a.
Speaker 5 (30:27):
Teen, Nancy. They're trying to keep him from running away?
Just as Meg just said that, it gets worse. What
they probably did was stripped him and did not allow
him to have pajamas, so he was naked from the
waist down. To keep him from running away. You probably
had to have clothing from the waist up.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
I don't know anything about them stripping him at night.
H Gurny. Did that happen to you at Charles Carolina?
Did they make you sleep half clothed?
Speaker 6 (30:53):
No?
Speaker 11 (30:54):
Okay, Yeah, it's been reported to me by ex staff.
But apparently it is required for them to be in
clothes at all times. You can't even be in boxers
or without your shirt. So that's what's been reported to
me by ex staff members that have come forward.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
Oh, Star jump in, do you know anything?
Speaker 4 (31:10):
No, that is a question that has another question that
we still are trying to get answers to.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
Yeah, I've never heard of that being a technique at
any of these wilderness camps where you are forced to
take your clothes off to go to sleep. Jenkins, man,
I think I heard you jumping in. Yeah.
Speaker 7 (31:27):
I was just going to say, Unfortunately, is horrific. As
all this is, we shouldn't and can't be surprised by
any of it. It's exactly what they did with Alec
Lansing when they waited all those hours to contact the police.
North Carolina is a mandatory reporter state in neither Gertie's instants,
(31:47):
nor Clara's instance, nor any instance that I'm able to find,
have they ever reported any of the sexual abuse that
occurred to these girls, to these children at the camp.
We shouldn't be at all prized, unfortunately that they clearly
waited a period of hours and hours and hours before
reporting what happened to CJH. And they do it because
(32:10):
it's a cloak of secrecy. They have this complete cloak
of secrecy where they don't want any regulation, they don't
want any oversight, and they do anything and everything they
can to keep what they're doing from light of.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
Day time stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
Another survivor of this camp trails, Carolina Catherine Riley, says
that she was taken from her home much as Gertie was,
much as this little boy was. That she was not
allowed to shower for seventeen days. Another survivor claims that
(33:05):
he had defecated in his pants and was forced to
wear the same pair of pants for two weeks. Back
to Eric Davis PI in this jurisdiction, I wonder and
tell me jenkins Man in nick Auckster, do you know
if a rape kit was performed on this child.
Speaker 10 (33:25):
It should have been it would have been standard, It
should have been especially sound with this pants down.
Speaker 2 (33:31):
Off pants and underwear offline by his head right.
Speaker 10 (33:35):
In North Carolina. You're probably not. I couldn't get the
toxicology reports for up to a month, and it could
be longer for the medical examiner's final report. So what
you got is basically the word of the detectives, coming
from what the medic told the detectives, Right, But I
have so many questions. I mean, the way you're going
to figure out this's lilyning is you got to interview
(33:56):
all these people. You got to interview all anyone who
was there, You got to interview all the staffs, and
you got to interview past people.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
They're not they would not allow LA law enforcement to
interview the other juveniles. Listen to Sidney Sumner.
Speaker 9 (34:10):
Early in the investigation, detectives with the Transylvania County Sheriff's
Office attempt to interview juveniles at Trails Carolina when the
boy died. However, camp staff members refuse to allow investigators
to interview or even see any of the other juveniles.
Trails Carolina says the search warrant contains misleading statements, saying
they won't discuss some details out of respect for the
(34:32):
family and the investigation. In a statement, Trails Carolina says
they did not prevent children from speaking to investigators, claiming
they asked parents for permission for any children involved to
speak with law enforcement and state agencies and quote be
complied with each parent's preference as we are required to do.
Children were moved from the area to protect them from
seeing what was happening, not to avoid investigators.
Speaker 2 (34:54):
I'm very curious, Eric Davis, in a potential homicide, can
juvenile witnesses be disallowed for speaking to sheriffs or EMTs?
Speaker 8 (35:07):
Not by the camp.
Speaker 10 (35:08):
But they are juveniles, so in North Carolina you would
need their parents' permission, But the law elie the law
enforcement should be getting that permission directly from the parents.
So in other words, the kid can't consent to an
interview without their parents' permission. But it sounds like the
camp's asserting that on their behalf. But yeah, they need
(35:28):
to be able to talk to the kids. Obviously, you
got to talk to the witnesses who were there, who
was in the in the bunk with them.
Speaker 2 (35:33):
In all my years prosecuting. I never had a parent
disallow me to speak to a child witness. Never correct.
I find it very unusual that no parent allowed their
child to speak to law enforcement in light of a
potential homicide. I want to go back to Gerdy, a
(35:54):
survivor of sex assault at Trails Carolina. Gerty, do you
believe you're the only victim.
Speaker 6 (36:04):
I can't speculate on what happened when I wasn't at Trails,
but I do believe the survivors who I've spoken to
since I was at Trails, and I believe the other
two kids who are assaulted at Trails in the same
group as me before I was assaulted.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
To you, jenkins Man, high profile lawyer representing victims of
Trail Carolina. How many victims are you representing? Excuse me,
alleged victims are you representing? Right now?
Speaker 7 (36:33):
Right now? We've got six?
Speaker 2 (36:35):
Were they all sex assault victims?
Speaker 7 (36:37):
All of them sex assault victims, all of them with
prior notice to Trails Carolina before it happened, one of
them assaulted by a staff member.
Speaker 2 (36:48):
Nick Auxner Jornios WTV. How much does this camp cost parents?
Speaker 4 (36:53):
Offwards of ten thousand dollars a month? So this is
not a cheap thing, and it's not covered by insurance.
And from what I understand, and my reporting showed that
kids are there for about three months.
Speaker 5 (37:05):
Nancy, can I interject about that? Yes, well, my wealthy clients,
wealthy patients and Beverly Hills. Often these camps are vying
to kidnap the kids and take them because it's so lucrative.
So one mother said, well, they said they'd take them
for nine thousand, but this other person offered to take
my child for twenty thousand. So there's this kind of
(37:25):
like extortion almost from the very beginning, against the child's
mental health.
Speaker 7 (37:31):
Yeah, and I would just interject, I think it's significantly
more expensive than Nick is saying. I think it's closer
almost to thirty thousand.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
In mine, Gurty, how long were you at Trails?
Speaker 6 (37:41):
I was there for three months. I think it was
exactly eighty three or eighty four days that I was
in their program. I don't know how much it cost.
I was there in twenty sixteen, so it would have
been less than it is now. But I know that
my parents couldn't afford it by themselves, and they needed
(38:02):
my grandparents help to pay for it.
Speaker 11 (38:04):
And that's also not counting the usually the therapeutic boarding
schools they recommend after wilderness programs as well.
Speaker 2 (38:11):
How did your parents react when you told them you
had been sex assaulted?
Speaker 6 (38:14):
They were horrified. My mom the other day told me
that my therapist completely booped her my therapist at trails.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
I'm thinking through everything that we're hearing, I want to
go back to Meg Applegate, co founder CEO of Unsilenced. Meg,
what happened to you?
Speaker 11 (38:34):
Well, pretty much what you heard. I was woken up
in the middle of the night. The two strangers told
me we're going to do this easy way or the
hard way, and they told me the hard way involved hancuffs.
So I went along, put me in the back of
an suv, drove me off, and I went to end
up in two different programs for the course of three
and a half years.
Speaker 2 (38:54):
Nick Auxner, it just seems so incredible to me that
the lies here are so obvious, yet no criminal charges
have been filed.
Speaker 4 (39:07):
Well, and that's why part of my current work investigating
the death of this twelve year old boy is, you know,
staying on regulators, state regulators, who's allowed this camp to
operate freely with very little oversight and staying on criminal
investigators and monitoring the court system and court documents and
(39:28):
court paperwork to see what new details are coming out,
and you know, to get to the bottom of what
investigators know and what the truth is here.
Speaker 2 (39:36):
Question, what is a local district attorney doing about man?
Speaker 4 (39:40):
That would be a good question. Again, all we know
so far from what authorities have said, what investigators have said,
and what's been filed in court, which is really all
anyone's saying at this point is from the search warrants
that have been unsealed. But we've not heard anything from
the local prosecutor. It's a multi county didicial districts or
(40:00):
the prosecutor there oversees three different counties, including the one
where this boy died where Trails, Carolina.
Speaker 2 (40:06):
Is Nick Oxtor. Who is the district attorney?
Speaker 4 (40:09):
Yeah, the district attorney for this judicial district is Andrew Murray.
He actually is the former US Attorney to the United
States Attorney for the Western District of North Carolina, A
seasoned prosecutor.
Speaker 2 (40:21):
Really, I just so happened to have his phone number
eight two eight six nine to four four to two
hundred repeat eight two eight six nine to four four
two one hundred. Why is this case not being classified
as a homicide? What will the autopsy report reveal to?
(40:47):
Doctor Todd Barr board certified anatomic clinical forensic pathologist. What
do you make of it, doctor Barr?
Speaker 8 (40:54):
I have a couple of points. The part of this
that really is most surving to me is when somebody,
it might have been unancy, that said they found possibility
of patiquia around the mouth and the eye. That's particularly
worrisome for me.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
Doesn't that indicate asphyxiation?
Speaker 8 (41:15):
It could very well indicate that he was suffocated, asphyxiated,
smothered in some way of flight pressure to his neck
to cause those blood vessels to break and cause these
little hemorrhages to occur. The one thing I just I
do want to state one other thing, and this I'm
(41:35):
not justifying what happened to this boy, but there is
this thing called paradoxical undressing when people are suffering from hypothermia.
And I've done many cases where people have been found
with their clothing off. When you're in really cold temperatures
and you're suffering from hypothermia, your brain can interpret that
(41:55):
as being hot and many people when they're in these
cold environments start to take their clothes off because they
feel warm and hot.
Speaker 2 (42:03):
I've thought about paradoxical hypothermia because I've encountered on several occasions.
And I'm curious if the twelve year old boy all
we know and by is c J H was suffering
from paradoxical hypothermia where you're so cold you think you're hot.
(42:23):
It has happened, why, I would assume the first thing
you take off would be your shirt, right when you're hot.
Speaker 8 (42:32):
Correct and and and that's why I find the idea
of the petikia very troublesome. And also he could he
could develop this pulmonary edema, this frothing fluid that comes
out of the lungs from being asphyxiated as well. So
you know this this frothing is a non specific finding
(42:52):
that happens in many forms of death. But it's it's
really the petikia that that troubled me the most.
Speaker 2 (42:58):
I agree, this smells.
Speaker 8 (42:59):
Too much like foul play to me. I would really
love to know what was found at autopsy. There are
other internal findings that you can find that may indicate hypothermia,
but there are also other findings that you can see
at an autopsy, not with.
Speaker 2 (43:16):
A particia busted burst, Doctor Barr.
Speaker 8 (43:19):
I want to know if he had hemorrhage in his
neck muscle, so that would also be an indication of
a sixtia.
Speaker 2 (43:24):
Can you think of any reason if he had had
this twelve year old boy peridotscyal hypothermia that the particular
in his eyes and around his mouth would be burst?
What I can't thank you?
Speaker 8 (43:39):
Yeah, you would never get patikia from hypothermia, never, which
completely rules out peridotscyl hypothermia, the particuli.
Speaker 2 (43:48):
We asked the Camp Charles Carolina to come on with
us to give a statement. Guess what they didn't want
to answer my questions. Why if you have or think
you have information relating to the death of this little
boy twelve years old, please call eight two eight eight
(44:13):
eight four three one zero eight repeat eight two eight
eight eight four three one zero eight and reminder the
elected district attorney elected because in that jurisdiction they trust
him to do something. Andrew Murray eight two eight sixty
(44:35):
ninety four forty two hundred, or you can go all
the way to the North Carolina Attorney General nine one
nine seven, one six sixty four hundred. We Wait for
Justice two Unfold. Goodbye Friend,
Crime stories with Nancy Grease.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Did you ever go away to camp? I did four
h camp and I got to go between fifth grade
and sixth grade. It was one week. It was the
biggest thing that happened to me in rural Bibb County.
It was very well supervised. I had a great time
and excelled in tree identification. Explain to me why a
(00:40):
twelve year old boy is dead after roughly one day,
not even one day at camp. Now there are reports
this twelve year old little boy had a panic attack. Really, Now,
(01:02):
I'm just a JD. I'm not an MD. But as
far as I know, a panic attack does not result
in frothing at the mouth and death. Now, as we
look into a so called wellness camp in North Carolina,
(01:24):
we find out there have been multiple claims of sex
assault on children. Children. You know, my parents worked so hard.
My mom is a bank teller working her way up
the ladder, my dad working in night shift for the railroad.
They had to work hard just to pay for four
(01:46):
age camp. And I remember it was thirty six dollars
in something since yes, that had to be taken out
of the grocery money. I remember it happening so I
could go to four age camp. You send your children
to camp, and you think you're doing something good for them,
giving them enrichment, making new friends, going for wellness. This
(02:10):
boy is dead and I want answers, not a bunch
of bs about a panic attack. I Nancy Grace, this
is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here
at Crime Stories and on Serious SEXM one eleven. First
of all, what do we know happened? Listen?
Speaker 3 (02:30):
The Transylvania County Sheriff's Office said when they arrived at Trails,
Carolina for an unresponsive participant, medics found evidence that CPR
had been performed, but the child appeared deceased for some time.
But now, in an odd twist of trust, the Wilderness
Therapy comp in North Carolina is refusing to allow investigators
(02:53):
to talk to staff or juvenile's present when the twelve
year old died. According to a search warrant, the boy
suffer to panic attack the night he arrived at the camp,
and the next morning he was found cold, stiff, and
frothing at the mouth, not being able to talk to
staff or campers. It is unclear what caused the boy
(03:13):
to present with frothing from the mouth. According to an
affidavit from the detective that got the search warrant, froth
about the mouth could indicate he ingested some sort of poison.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Guys, I have an all star panel to make sense
of what we're learning right now, including a young woman
who went as a child to Trails Carolina. She's gonna
tell us about her experience. But why all the focus
on the camp now that a little boy is dead?
(03:44):
Oh yeah, I would have to go burn the place
down if something happened to my child after I send
them to camp. But I'm trying to understand something. For
a straight out to Nick Oxenar, executive producer, chief investigator,
reporter wb TV, he has been investigating Trails Carolina since
(04:06):
twenty twenty one. Kind of hate to ask why since
twenty twenty one. I'm sure I'm going to get to that,
But first, Nick Oxer, thank you for being with us.
How is this place build? I know it's a North
Carolina wellness camp. Efforty. Anybody that can't see me, you
can only hear me. Don't worry. I'm doing air quotes
because there's nothing well about this where a twelve year
(04:28):
old boy died. Now we're learning it's more like a
cruel boot camp.
Speaker 4 (04:34):
Well, so this this camp is billed as a wilderness
therapy camp, and so in theory, parents send their children
there to get therapy and you know, address maybe mental
health or behavioral issues. I've interviewed a number of people
who attended this camp over a number of years now,
(04:54):
and one of the last questions I asked every person
who went there is did you get much therapy? And
the best I can tell is this camp provides about
thirty minutes to an hour of therapy about once a week.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
Okay, well, wait, why you know, Nick Oxner? You got
me changing from the fire hunching because every other word
you say, I'm trying to write it down very quickly.
Nick Oxner joining US chief investigative reporter and an EP
at WBTV, curious, why did you start investigating this so
called wellness camp in North Carolina in twenty twenty one?
(05:32):
What led you there in twenty twenty one.
Speaker 4 (05:35):
Yeah, I got a call from a concerned parent who
was looking at sending their child there and started doing
some research and said, we have some questions about this place,
and so it got on my radar, and that I
learned that a child had died at this facility or
in this program back in twenty fourteen, a seventeen year old,
(05:57):
and it piqued my interest even more. And the more
we started talking to folks, the more it was clear
that there was a story here.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
You know, I'm very curious about the teen boy. I
believe you're referring to Alec Lansing. Is that correct?
Speaker 4 (06:09):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (06:10):
So is he the teen boy that left the campground
and somehow ended up in a creek? Yeah, he had
an accident and then landed in the creek. I think
he was climbing a tree and landed in the creek
and he died of hypothermia. Is that is that Alec Lansing?
Speaker 4 (06:26):
That is that Alec Lansing?
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Yeah? I got to be a question about that too,
Nick Oxer, because it takes a minute to die of hypothermia.
You don't just fall into the creek and die. It
takes time. So how long was it that they didn't
notice a teen boy was missing? And how far was
his body found from the camp do you know that?
Speaker 4 (06:51):
Yeah? Well, and that's the thing at the time. That
was another when I started looking into it that made
my eyebrow go up. Right, is that the Sheriff's office
at the time Glancing went missing and was ultimately found dead.
They said, look, had the camp called us as soon
as they knew he was gone and we started a
search right away, we probably would have been able to
(07:11):
find him. Instead, they waited, you know, twelve eighteen hours
before calling nine on long.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
Oh, dear Lord in heaven, that's making me sick to
my stomach because I don't know if you know, Nick Oxen,
but my children just turned sixteen and they are babes
in the woods. They you know, maybe I've kept him
in a bubble too much, but to think this boy,
this teen boy, was out there in that cold creek
(07:39):
water for that long and nobody called the sheriff. Oh yeah,
now I see why you were on the story. Guys.
I want to get back to the twelve year old
that was found cold, I think stiff, which is an
issue for the medical examiner because that would give me
(08:00):
time of death, which is really important in reconstructing what happens.
Is we're not getting any cooperation from the camp, but
I want to go to Gerty. Gerty is a special
guest joining us. Gerty was assaulted. This is her story,
I have no reason to disbelieve it at Trails Carolina.
(08:23):
I also want to go to doctor Bethany Marshall to
explain to me, she's a renown psycho analys joining us
out of La Beverly Hills, what is therapy camp? Because
if these children are getting one hour max. Thirty minutes
to an hour of therapy a week, that doesn't sound
like therapy camp to me. But that said doctor Bethany
(08:46):
before I go to Gerty set it up for me,
Doctor Bethany at doctor Bethany Marshall dot com. What is
therapy camp? Why would you send your twelve year old
boy to therapy camp? I'm not second guessing the parents
because we actually have a friend, doctor Bethany, that sent
(09:08):
their daughter to a therapy camp, not this therapy camp.
It turned her life around, and I'd like to report
she's doing very well her freshman year at college right now.
And we went through a lot with that family. They
went through hell trying to figure out how to help
their daughter, and this one therapy camp they went to
(09:28):
she went to really helped her. But this doesn't sound
anything like that to me.
Speaker 5 (09:35):
You know, Nancy, probably the therapy camp or most likely
called the wilderness camp they sent their daughter to had
a lot of oversight trained clinicians, people coming in and out.
But wilderness camp, which is what this was, is where
parents send their children when all other forms of treatment
(09:56):
have failed. Say they've sent their their children to an
impatient psychiatric facility, to group therapy, to an individual therapist,
to family therapy, and the child is still experiencing profound deficits,
either from learning disorders, psychiatric difficulties, social difficulties.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
Okay, Bethany, I believe we've discussed when you're talking to me,
you need to dummy down. Okay, I'm just a JD.
They didn't teach any of this in law school, either
at Mercery University or when I got my m at NYU.
Nobody said anything about anything. You just said, please tak
regular people taught doctor, Bethany.
Speaker 5 (10:38):
Let's say you have a child with psychological difficulties. Nothing
seems to help. You send them away to a camp
that's in the wild, hoping, as you said earlier, like
your four ahe camp, that they will have loving adults
around them, they will go hiking, and while they're hiking,
they'll be talking to a therapist or sitting by a
(11:00):
lake and then talking to another therapist and processing everything
and they'll come back better. But while your friend had
a great experience at her camp, most of these camps
have no oversight. They are just a group of people
in a profit making setting who take kids for quote
(11:22):
unquote therapy. But often it becomes a culture of abuse.
And Nancy, let me tell you how they get these
kids to the camp. They go and they kid nap them.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
Ooh, Dodger Bethany. I noticed when I was studying the
case that, and Nick Oxtar backed me up. I don't
know if this is correct or not, but two men.
What man took the twelve year old to the camp
all the way from New York to North Carolina? What
man I couldn't get clear on. That is it somebody
envoys that the camp sends to as doctor Bethany says,
(11:59):
take the.
Speaker 4 (12:00):
Yeah, it's a practice called They're referred to as goony
and basically you hire two people to show up in
the middle of the night. And I noticed from talking
to several of the former participants that I've interviewed, these
kids get woken up basically in the middle of the
night by two strangers who you know, basically drag them
out of their house and put them on an airplane
and the next thing you know, you're in the woods
(12:21):
of North Carolina.
Speaker 5 (12:22):
Hey, Nancy, can I say something about that?
Speaker 2 (12:24):
I just yeah, because I want to get to Gertie
real quick.
Speaker 5 (12:27):
Okay, very quickly. I worked with Paris Hilton on her
new show. So this is not privileged material. This is
this is made public that she was kidnapped and taken
to one of these camps, as we all know, and
suffered extreme abuse while in the camp. But she told
me that she's sleeping in the middle of the night.
Two people come in. They're all dressed in that black
(12:49):
They kidnap her. She starts screaming, my parents are going
to find me. My parents are going to find me.
You're going to go to jail. She looks over her
shoulder and her parents are standing in the hall watching
the whole thing play out.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
Okay, I just wish you could see Dr bethany everybody
here in this studio. There's Eli, there's Jamie, there's Sid
and they're all like, and you you just gave me
chills over my whole body.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
Time Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
I want to go to Gerdy now. Gertie, Hey love.
Gertie explains to me that she is a sex assault
victim and the assault occurred at Trails Carolina. I refer
to her as a survivor, a survivor who's telling you
(13:54):
her story, so maybe, just maybe this won't happen to
another child. Gerny, what happened? When we start with who
took you to Trails Carolina?
Speaker 6 (14:06):
I was transported to Trails Carolina by two transporters. They
didn't take me in the middle of the night, but
I had no idea that they were going to be
at my house.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
What happened? Tell me what happened.
Speaker 6 (14:17):
My mom told me that there were two people who
wanted to talk to me, and I went downstairs with
her and they told me that I was going to
a summer camp and that I would be gone for
no more than a week. And then I packed a
bag and got in their car.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
I understand why a lot of parents have difficulty getting
their child to camp, because child, of course doesn't want
to go. Then they'll start screaming and throwing a fit,
maybe physically fighting with the parent. But the scenario that
doctor Bethany Marshall correctly described as has been told by
(15:01):
Paris Hilton, sounds forcible, like a scary kidnap. You're already
what happened? When you got to.
Speaker 6 (15:09):
The transporters handed me off to two new staff and
they brought me to a building where I was strip searched.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
Okay, let me just say right there. Nobody's trip searched
me when I went to four H camp.
Speaker 6 (15:21):
Nobody's strip searched me when I went to a real
summer camp either.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
How did that go down?
Speaker 6 (15:26):
They told me that I had to take my clothes off,
and I didn't know what to think. I was kind
of frozen in shock. I figured, I mean, I'm going
home in a week. I'll call my parents as soon
as this is over. I'll just get it over with.
(15:49):
But then I wasn't allowed to call my parents at
all the entire time I was there, and it wasn't
a week. I was at Trails for three months.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
Were you getting therapy while you were there?
Speaker 6 (16:02):
I met with a therapist once a week, but from
what I experienced with that therapist, I would not call
it legitimate therapy.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
You have described to us that you were sex assaulted.
Speaker 6 (16:16):
What happened one of the other kids in my group
had sexually assaulted two other kids before me, and the
staff and my therapist knew that this had happened, and
they did not separate us from the kid he was
doing this, and I was very scared of this kid.
(16:38):
I told them that I told them that I didn't
feel safe at trails, and they assigned me to sleep
next to her. I don't want to go too far
into detail about it.
Speaker 7 (16:51):
That's unfortunately epidemic, and the conversations we've had with several
multiple trail survivors, I've Gerty's was the second lawsuit I
filed with almost an identical fact patterns the first lawsuit
I filed, which involved my niece, and I've had probably
ten conversations since then with various girls who have had
(17:17):
an experience so similar it's almost eerie.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
You're hearing jenkins Man, high profile lawyer joining us out
of Columbia, South Carolina representing victims of Trail Carolina. It's
jenkins Man and you can find him at man Blake
dot com. So, Jenkins, Gerty and your niece are by
far not the only young girls who have stated they
(17:44):
were sex assaulted at trails Carolina.
Speaker 7 (17:46):
No, absolutely not. And you know, as doctor Bethany said,
and contrasting your four age camp experience with what these
these kids have gone through. I mean, these camps are
designed to humiliate you. What Gerty's not telling you is it?
Not only has she strip searched the moment she gets there,
but she is forced to squat and cough while naked
(18:10):
in front of twenty one year old field staff that
has no counseling training whatsoever. These are just kids who
get a little training on the job there and are
in no way counselors or watching these girls and boys
squat and cough naked, and it just goes from there.
These camps are designed to humiliate you, to break you down,
(18:34):
to take you to your lowest and then in some sick,
perverse way, hoping to build you back up better and stronger,
but again without any real therapy or any real guidance
to do any of that.
Speaker 8 (18:47):
Nancy, if I.
Speaker 5 (18:48):
Can just interject, in a proper psychiatric facility, the initial
session is with a psychiatrist or the child is evaluated psychiatrically.
When they're admitted, every child has their own room, there
are lights in the hallway, Nurses with white uniforms check
all night long. The only time that with the other
kids is while they're doing some recreation or in group therapy.
(19:13):
That's it. And then other professionals are coming in all
the time making notes in their chart. This is such
a deviation from that and such a culture of a.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
Few, and we have only got to the tip of
the iceberg. Remember we're here today about a twelve year
old little boy twelve fifth grade that is dead. Guys,
I want you to take a listen to our friend
Sidney Sumner from crime Online.
Speaker 9 (19:40):
The parents of a twelve year old boy think Trails
Carolina might be just the place to help their son.
Trails Carolina claims to be a leader in wilderness therapy,
offering an adventure wilderness program for children who have behavioral
and or emotional difficulties. The parents say their boy is
transported by two men from New York to Trails Carolina
Camp at Lake Talks Away, North Carolina. Their son arrives
(20:02):
at the camp in an agitated state. The twelve year
old is loud and disruptive, but he is assigned to
a cabin with other children as well as for adults.
In less than twenty four hours, the twelve year old
boy is dead. Sheriff Chuck owenb says an autopsy is
being conducted because the death appeared suspicious since the boy
died at the camp less than twenty four hours after
he arrived.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
And what are we learning about the condition of the
boy's body? Listen.
Speaker 3 (20:29):
Investigators have yet to name the twelve year old that
died at Trails, Carolina, referring to him by the initials
c JH. An unidentified camp counselor told investigators that CJH
was loud and irate when he first arrived at the camp,
and he refused to eat dinner. The boy calmed down
later in the evening and the counselor was able to
(20:51):
provide him with some snacks that the boy ate. The
counselor explained to investigators that the boy was required to
sleep on the floor inside a sleep sleeping bag. The
sleeping bag is inside a small tint called a BIV.
According to search warrant documents, around midnight, the boy started
to experience a panic attack. Two counselors stood nearby while
(21:12):
the boy was experiencing the panic attack, but the counselor
made no mention of anything being done to directly help
the boy through the panic attack.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
No, that's not what I'm talking about. Listen to this.
Speaker 9 (21:24):
After the twelve year old has a panic attack around midnight,
a councillor told investigators that the boy was checked on
throughout the night, starting at twelve am, with additional checks
on his well being at three am and six am.
At seven forty five am, the boy is found dead.
According to the search warrant, when investigators arrived on scene,
CJH was stiff and cold to the touch. He was
(21:45):
lying on his back, his arms were on his chest,
and his knees bent upward towards the sky. Also in
the search warrant, investigators noted spots of bleeding under the skin,
possible petikia in the boy's lips and eyes. The CPR
mask was covering the boy's face, and he was not
wearing pants or underwear. His pants and underwear were lying
next to his shoulder.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
No, No, everything you just heard is wrong. I'm not
saying the facts are not correct. The facts are correct,
but that is not consistent with death by a panic attack. No,
joining me. Doctor Todd Barr Board certified anatomic, clinical and
forensic pathologist. Doctor Barr, help me explain how wrong that
(22:30):
scenario is. It is not compatible at all with a
panic attack, which means airgo. Somebody's lying, which means there's
something nefarious occurring right now. Why lie about it unless
you're covering something up, doctor.
Speaker 8 (22:47):
Barr, Well, yeah, there's a lot of inconsistencies with these reports.
Number one, My biggest concern is that when they state
that they found him cold and stiff, cold and stiff
means that the body's been dead for anywhere between eight
and thirty six hours. You don't get cold and stiff
(23:09):
in an hour. In forty five minutes. If he was
checked on at six am, as it was reported, he
should not be cold and stiff. If he was dead,
he would be flaccid. Riga mortis doesn't set in for
at least two hours after death. Now a caveat is
if you're in a cold environment, that flows the process
(23:29):
down even more so it's an even flower process. And
I would imagine in North Carolina in February, the temperatures
were probably in the forties that night.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
Could you get that for me? Jimmy the timp on
that night, the night that CJH died and at Lake
talks away. Go ahead, doctor, thank you.
Speaker 8 (23:51):
If he was cold and stiff at seven forty five am,
as it was reported then, that means he had to
have been dead at midnight when he was quote unquote
having a panic attack.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
Oh, let me clear something up, Nick Oxner joining us WBTV.
Was he cold and stiff when elle law enforcement got
there or was he cold and stiff when counselors found him?
And how long was the delay if any, when they
called sheriff, because you were telling me about Alec Lansing,
how sheriffs weren't called for at least twelve plus hours?
(24:22):
How long did it take them upon discovery of Cjh's
did body did they call sheriffs?
Speaker 4 (24:28):
Well, that's why I think the detail about Alec Lansing's
staff in the delay is important here, Nancy. We only
know what he was like when he was found by
first responders, where they said rigor Mortis had already said
it was cold and stiff. We don't actually have a
clear understanding of when our clear answer to when he
was actually discovered by camp counselors yet, because again we
(24:50):
have two facts here that don't really square based on
what the doctor is telling us, right, we know that
he was in riga mortis by the time first responders
show up about seven forty five eight am. But we
also have camp counselors saying they checked on him at midnight,
three AM, and six AM. And hopefully what we you know,
get after the investigation is an explanation on how those
(25:11):
two facts can square.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
That is a lie. They don't square. Counselors cannot check
on him and he be alive at six a m.
I believe it was six am they said they checked
on sid and then he be in full rigor and
cold to the touch at seven forty five. That's impossible.
And Nick Oxney, you're telling me that's when LA or
(25:32):
first responders. Law enforcement first responders got there at seven
forty five, which means counselors had to find him before that.
He could not Doctor Todd Barr be in full rigor
in less than an hour and a half if they
checked on him at six There's no way.
Speaker 8 (25:50):
It's just it's physiologically impossible.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Twenty eight degrees, Doc, twenty eight degrees that morning, you know.
Speaker 8 (25:57):
And here's another interesting you know, I don't know what
the frothing is all about. You can get pulmonary edema
from hypothermia from drowning heart.
Speaker 5 (26:08):
Area to go again.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Pulmonary edema, what's that?
Speaker 8 (26:12):
That's when your lung filled up with fluids after you
die and you get frothing of the mouth.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
That's still inconsistent. Doctor. That takes a period of time
for pulmonary edema to occur, number one and two, for
it to go up your throat and come out of
your mouth and nose, that takes additional time. It's not
going to happen in an hour and a half.
Speaker 8 (26:33):
No, you're absolutely right. And when I was preparing for today,
I was reading some of the materials sent to us
and it says one of the staff members reportedly told
detectives that he was cold to the touch and stiff.
So I'm assuming that is one of the camp staff
members that found him dead at seven forty five. So
(26:53):
they're reporting to the detectives they found him cold and
cold to the touch and stiff at seven. It just
doesn't jive.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Somebody is lying. I think I know who. But that
said Eric Davis, joining me out of this jurisdiction, an
expert private investigator, retired FBI special agent. Okay, that says
it all right there, partner at Richardson and Davis Investigative
Consulting Group. That's a mouthful. You can find him at
(27:26):
Richardson and Davis dot com. Eric, thank you for being
with us. Okay, how do I figure out who's lying?
I don't think it's the medical examiner. I don't think
it's the EMTs. They don't have a dog in the fight,
no skin in the game. They arrived and this is
what they found. And I know for a fact that
(27:48):
rigor stiffening of the limbs doesn't happen. And this is
in the light most favorable to the camp. If he
was dead, they check on him at six and he
dies at six one ry which did not happen. He
still wouldn't be in rigor at seven five. That's a lie.
Speaker 8 (28:07):
They found him and he was dead at six oh one.
It would take a minimum of six to eight hours
to get into full riger That would take us into
one or two in the afternoon.
Speaker 2 (28:18):
What about his underwear and his pj's totally off, his
body up around his head.
Speaker 10 (28:23):
That's my question, Nancy, what's going on there? What's he
doing in a BIV tent with no pants on, no underwear,
on all the prior incidents of sexual abuse or at
least alleged sexual abuse. Why is he in this BIV tent?
Zipped up in a BIV tent? That's another question I have.
It's going to make it really hard for the camp
(28:45):
counselors to observe what's going on with and if he
zipped up in a BIV tent, is that some sort
of punishment?
Speaker 8 (28:50):
And why is he a bivy tent.
Speaker 11 (28:51):
We've done a lot of investigations and I have over
sixty experienced surveys filled out, and one of the most
common things that I've heard is something called they called redoing,
and it's when they're wrapped in a tarp so tight
that many of them report that they can't breathe. And
that's the first thing that came to mind for me.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
Guys, you're hearing Meg Applegate. She is co founder and
CEO of Unsilenced, victim of the Trouble Team industry, and
advocate for survivors at unsilenced dot org. Eric, I'm going
to circle back to you, Meg Applegate. This is your
Baileywick jump in.
Speaker 8 (29:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 11 (29:32):
I mean, I've spoke to countless victims and one of
the most common things I'm hearing is this burrito, and
many are reporting that for the first week or so,
they're required to be in this burrito. And they basically
take a tarp, which is mentioned in the report, which
is what triggered me thinking about this, and they are
wrapped up so tight, and then they usually have a
(29:53):
staff member sleep on one side of the tarp, and
the point of this is to ensure they don't try
to run away, and any kind of the movement will
obviously wake up the staff.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
Okay, question, hold on, doctor Bethany Marshall, how does that
help a troubled teen not to be able? You know,
when the twins came home from nick you, the nurses
said he suposed to wrap them really tight, swaddle them,
and they were really not happy with that. I couldn't
stand by to see them swaddled tightly, so I would
(30:23):
immediately unswallow it, unswaddle them. Why would you do that
to a.
Speaker 5 (30:27):
Teen, Nancy. They're trying to keep him from running away?
Just as Meg just said that, it gets worse. What
they probably did was stripped him and did not allow
him to have pajamas, so he was naked from the
waist down. To keep him from running away. You probably
had to have clothing from the waist up.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
I don't know anything about them stripping him at night.
H Gurny. Did that happen to you at Charles Carolina?
Did they make you sleep half clothed?
Speaker 6 (30:53):
No?
Speaker 11 (30:54):
Okay, Yeah, it's been reported to me by ex staff.
But apparently it is required for them to be in
clothes at all times. You can't even be in boxers
or without your shirt. So that's what's been reported to
me by ex staff members that have come forward.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
Oh, Star jump in, do you know anything?
Speaker 4 (31:10):
No, that is a question that has another question that
we still are trying to get answers to.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
Yeah, I've never heard of that being a technique at
any of these wilderness camps where you are forced to
take your clothes off to go to sleep. Jenkins, man,
I think I heard you jumping in. Yeah.
Speaker 7 (31:27):
I was just going to say, Unfortunately, is horrific. As
all this is, we shouldn't and can't be surprised by
any of it. It's exactly what they did with Alec
Lansing when they waited all those hours to contact the police.
North Carolina is a mandatory reporter state in neither Gertie's instants,
(31:47):
nor Clara's instance, nor any instance that I'm able to find,
have they ever reported any of the sexual abuse that
occurred to these girls, to these children at the camp.
We shouldn't be at all prized, unfortunately that they clearly
waited a period of hours and hours and hours before
reporting what happened to CJH. And they do it because
(32:10):
it's a cloak of secrecy. They have this complete cloak
of secrecy where they don't want any regulation, they don't
want any oversight, and they do anything and everything they
can to keep what they're doing from light of.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
Day time stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
Another survivor of this camp trails, Carolina Catherine Riley, says
that she was taken from her home much as Gertie was,
much as this little boy was. That she was not
allowed to shower for seventeen days. Another survivor claims that
(33:05):
he had defecated in his pants and was forced to
wear the same pair of pants for two weeks. Back
to Eric Davis PI in this jurisdiction, I wonder and
tell me jenkins Man in nick Auckster, do you know
if a rape kit was performed on this child.
Speaker 10 (33:25):
It should have been it would have been standard, It
should have been especially sound with this pants down.
Speaker 2 (33:31):
Off pants and underwear offline by his head right.
Speaker 10 (33:35):
In North Carolina. You're probably not. I couldn't get the
toxicology reports for up to a month, and it could
be longer for the medical examiner's final report. So what
you got is basically the word of the detectives, coming
from what the medic told the detectives, Right, But I
have so many questions. I mean, the way you're going
to figure out this's lilyning is you got to interview
(33:56):
all these people. You got to interview all anyone who
was there, You got to interview all the staffs, and
you got to interview past people.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
They're not they would not allow LA law enforcement to
interview the other juveniles. Listen to Sidney Sumner.
Speaker 9 (34:10):
Early in the investigation, detectives with the Transylvania County Sheriff's
Office attempt to interview juveniles at Trails Carolina when the
boy died. However, camp staff members refuse to allow investigators
to interview or even see any of the other juveniles.
Trails Carolina says the search warrant contains misleading statements, saying
they won't discuss some details out of respect for the
(34:32):
family and the investigation. In a statement, Trails Carolina says
they did not prevent children from speaking to investigators, claiming
they asked parents for permission for any children involved to
speak with law enforcement and state agencies and quote be
complied with each parent's preference as we are required to do.
Children were moved from the area to protect them from
seeing what was happening, not to avoid investigators.
Speaker 2 (34:54):
I'm very curious, Eric Davis, in a potential homicide, can
juvenile witnesses be disallowed for speaking to sheriffs or EMTs?
Speaker 8 (35:07):
Not by the camp.
Speaker 10 (35:08):
But they are juveniles, so in North Carolina you would
need their parents' permission, But the law elie the law
enforcement should be getting that permission directly from the parents.
So in other words, the kid can't consent to an
interview without their parents' permission. But it sounds like the
camp's asserting that on their behalf. But yeah, they need
(35:28):
to be able to talk to the kids. Obviously, you
got to talk to the witnesses who were there, who
was in the in the bunk with them.
Speaker 2 (35:33):
In all my years prosecuting. I never had a parent
disallow me to speak to a child witness. Never correct.
I find it very unusual that no parent allowed their
child to speak to law enforcement in light of a
potential homicide. I want to go back to Gerdy, a
(35:54):
survivor of sex assault at Trails Carolina. Gerty, do you
believe you're the only victim.
Speaker 6 (36:04):
I can't speculate on what happened when I wasn't at Trails,
but I do believe the survivors who I've spoken to
since I was at Trails, and I believe the other
two kids who are assaulted at Trails in the same
group as me before I was assaulted.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
To you, jenkins Man, high profile lawyer representing victims of
Trail Carolina. How many victims are you representing? Excuse me,
alleged victims are you representing? Right now?
Speaker 7 (36:33):
Right now? We've got six?
Speaker 2 (36:35):
Were they all sex assault victims?
Speaker 7 (36:37):
All of them sex assault victims, all of them with
prior notice to Trails Carolina before it happened, one of
them assaulted by a staff member.
Speaker 2 (36:48):
Nick Auxner Jornios WTV. How much does this camp cost parents?
Speaker 4 (36:53):
Offwards of ten thousand dollars a month? So this is
not a cheap thing, and it's not covered by insurance.
And from what I understand, and my reporting showed that
kids are there for about three months.
Speaker 5 (37:05):
Nancy, can I interject about that? Yes, well, my wealthy clients,
wealthy patients and Beverly Hills. Often these camps are vying
to kidnap the kids and take them because it's so lucrative.
So one mother said, well, they said they'd take them
for nine thousand, but this other person offered to take
my child for twenty thousand. So there's this kind of
(37:25):
like extortion almost from the very beginning, against the child's
mental health.
Speaker 7 (37:31):
Yeah, and I would just interject, I think it's significantly
more expensive than Nick is saying. I think it's closer
almost to thirty thousand.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
In mine, Gurty, how long were you at Trails?
Speaker 6 (37:41):
I was there for three months. I think it was
exactly eighty three or eighty four days that I was
in their program. I don't know how much it cost.
I was there in twenty sixteen, so it would have
been less than it is now. But I know that
my parents couldn't afford it by themselves, and they needed
(38:02):
my grandparents help to pay for it.
Speaker 11 (38:04):
And that's also not counting the usually the therapeutic boarding
schools they recommend after wilderness programs as well.
Speaker 2 (38:11):
How did your parents react when you told them you
had been sex assaulted?
Speaker 6 (38:14):
They were horrified. My mom the other day told me
that my therapist completely booped her my therapist at trails.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
I'm thinking through everything that we're hearing, I want to
go back to Meg Applegate, co founder CEO of Unsilenced. Meg,
what happened to you?
Speaker 11 (38:34):
Well, pretty much what you heard. I was woken up
in the middle of the night. The two strangers told
me we're going to do this easy way or the
hard way, and they told me the hard way involved hancuffs.
So I went along, put me in the back of
an suv, drove me off, and I went to end
up in two different programs for the course of three
and a half years.
Speaker 2 (38:54):
Nick Auxner, it just seems so incredible to me that
the lies here are so obvious, yet no criminal charges
have been filed.
Speaker 4 (39:07):
Well, and that's why part of my current work investigating
the death of this twelve year old boy is, you know,
staying on regulators, state regulators, who's allowed this camp to
operate freely with very little oversight and staying on criminal
investigators and monitoring the court system and court documents and
(39:28):
court paperwork to see what new details are coming out,
and you know, to get to the bottom of what
investigators know and what the truth is here.
Speaker 2 (39:36):
Question, what is a local district attorney doing about man?
Speaker 4 (39:40):
That would be a good question. Again, all we know
so far from what authorities have said, what investigators have said,
and what's been filed in court, which is really all
anyone's saying at this point is from the search warrants
that have been unsealed. But we've not heard anything from
the local prosecutor. It's a multi county didicial districts or
(40:00):
the prosecutor there oversees three different counties, including the one
where this boy died where Trails, Carolina.
Speaker 2 (40:06):
Is Nick Oxtor. Who is the district attorney?
Speaker 4 (40:09):
Yeah, the district attorney for this judicial district is Andrew Murray.
He actually is the former US Attorney to the United
States Attorney for the Western District of North Carolina, A
seasoned prosecutor.
Speaker 2 (40:21):
Really, I just so happened to have his phone number
eight two eight six nine to four four to two
hundred repeat eight two eight six nine to four four
two one hundred. Why is this case not being classified
as a homicide? What will the autopsy report reveal to?
(40:47):
Doctor Todd Barr board certified anatomic clinical forensic pathologist. What
do you make of it, doctor Barr?
Speaker 8 (40:54):
I have a couple of points. The part of this
that really is most surving to me is when somebody,
it might have been unancy, that said they found possibility
of patiquia around the mouth and the eye. That's particularly
worrisome for me.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
Doesn't that indicate asphyxiation?
Speaker 8 (41:15):
It could very well indicate that he was suffocated, asphyxiated,
smothered in some way of flight pressure to his neck
to cause those blood vessels to break and cause these
little hemorrhages to occur. The one thing I just I
do want to state one other thing, and this I'm
(41:35):
not justifying what happened to this boy, but there is
this thing called paradoxical undressing when people are suffering from hypothermia.
And I've done many cases where people have been found
with their clothing off. When you're in really cold temperatures
and you're suffering from hypothermia, your brain can interpret that
(41:55):
as being hot and many people when they're in these
cold environments start to take their clothes off because they
feel warm and hot.
Speaker 2 (42:03):
I've thought about paradoxical hypothermia because I've encountered on several occasions.
And I'm curious if the twelve year old boy all
we know and by is c J H was suffering
from paradoxical hypothermia where you're so cold you think you're hot.
(42:23):
It has happened, why, I would assume the first thing
you take off would be your shirt, right when you're hot.
Speaker 8 (42:32):
Correct and and and that's why I find the idea
of the petikia very troublesome. And also he could he
could develop this pulmonary edema, this frothing fluid that comes
out of the lungs from being asphyxiated as well. So
you know this this frothing is a non specific finding
(42:52):
that happens in many forms of death. But it's it's
really the petikia that that troubled me the most.
Speaker 2 (42:58):
I agree, this smells.
Speaker 8 (42:59):
Too much like foul play to me. I would really
love to know what was found at autopsy. There are
other internal findings that you can find that may indicate hypothermia,
but there are also other findings that you can see
at an autopsy, not with.
Speaker 2 (43:16):
A particia busted burst, Doctor Barr.
Speaker 8 (43:19):
I want to know if he had hemorrhage in his
neck muscle, so that would also be an indication of
a sixtia.
Speaker 2 (43:24):
Can you think of any reason if he had had
this twelve year old boy peridotscyal hypothermia that the particular
in his eyes and around his mouth would be burst?
What I can't thank you?
Speaker 8 (43:39):
Yeah, you would never get patikia from hypothermia, never, which
completely rules out peridotscyl hypothermia, the particuli.
Speaker 2 (43:48):
We asked the Camp Charles Carolina to come on with
us to give a statement. Guess what they didn't want
to answer my questions. Why if you have or think
you have information relating to the death of this little
boy twelve years old, please call eight two eight eight
(44:13):
eight four three one zero eight repeat eight two eight
eight eight four three one zero eight and reminder the
elected district attorney elected because in that jurisdiction they trust
him to do something. Andrew Murray eight two eight sixty
(44:35):
ninety four forty two hundred, or you can go all
the way to the North Carolina Attorney General nine one
nine seven, one six sixty four hundred. We Wait for
Justice two Unfold. Goodbye Friend,
Host
Nancy Grace
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