November 6, 2020 • 40 mins
Teacher and bride-to-be Ellen Greenberg is found inside a locked apartment stabbed 20 times, including the back of the neck. It's ruled a suicide but does the evidence support the claim? Greenberg's family has filed a lawsuit against the Philadelphia County Medical Examiner's Office to compel officials to change the cause of death back to homicide or undetermined.
Joining Nancy Grace today:
- Sandee Greenberg - Mother
- Josh Greenberg - Father
- Darryl Cohen - Former Assistant District Attorney, Fulton County, Georgia, Defense Attorney
- Dr. Angela Arnold - Psychiatrist, Atlanta Ga www.angelaarnoldmd.com
- Tom Brennan - Private Investigator for the Greenbergs
- Joe Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet" featured on "Poisonous Liaisons" on True Crime Network
- Brian Sheehan - reporter, WHP-TV Local 21
Follow the investigation on Facebook at https://www.facebook.com/JusticeForEllen2019
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. How can a beautiful, brilliant,
twenty seven year old woman die of twenty stab wounds
and it's a suicide. I'm not buying it? And her
(00:28):
parents agree Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. As the world
whizzes by around us, between politics and this and that,
(00:52):
this family is leading a crusade for justice, won't you
join us? Let me tell you what happened. First of all,
take a listen to this. Nearly a decade of long
days and late night thoughts, but for Josh and Sandy Greenberg,
it's been worth every minute. We didn't go away, and
(01:12):
we're not going away. For years, the couple struggled to
get anyone to reinvestigate the death of their twenty seven
year old daughter, Ellen, elementary school teacher living in Philadelphia
with her fiancee, and the break we had in this
whole thing. Then just last month, a small victory, a
Philadelphia judge ruled the couple could move forward with a
lawsuit against the city's medical examiner in an attempt to
(01:34):
get her official cause of death removed from the record.
As a murderer out there, a killer, somebody who brutally
attacks somebody with a multiple stab wounds and let her
bleed to death and left her for dead. Though that's
not how the city sees it. Instead, investigators concluded Ellen
stabbed herself twenty times in her kitchen. You're hearing our
(01:58):
friend Brian she And at Local twenty one news, what
happened to Ellen? Well, I can tell you this much.
She did not commit suicide by stabbing herself twenty times
in her kitchen floor. That did not happen. With me
an all star panel to break it down and put
it back together again. First of all, Daryl Cohen, former
(02:19):
prosecutor in Inner City Atlanta, now defense attorney, doctor Angela Arnold,
renowned psychiatrists joining us from the Atlanta jurisdiction at Angela
Arnold MD dot com. The private investigator for the Greenberg family.
Tom Brennan. He's been on the case trying to turn
the tide toward justice for years now. Joseph Scott Morgan,
(02:41):
Professor forensics at Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath
My Feet on Amazon, now the star of a new
hit series, Poisonous Liaisons on the True Crime Network. Brian
she And whose voice you just heard at WHPTV Local
twenty one, and two very special guests that we have
been longing to hear from, Sandy and Josh Greenberg. These
(03:07):
are Ellen's parents. Welcome to everyone, but first to Sandy
and Josh Greenberg. I can't tell you how much it
means to us to have you with us today. First
of all, our condolences to you for what you've been through,
not only when you lost your daughter, but having to
fight this fight for so many years. Missus Greenberg, I
(03:31):
just what was your reaction when you learned that your
daughter's death was ruled a suicide. It was tragic. It's
like the curtain went down, the world turned upside down,
and we were heartbroken. We were devastated, and it took
(03:59):
a lot of wording out because that was a very
low point in our lives. I just don't understand how
anybody in their right mind could believe with twenty stab
wounds that could possibly in any way be a suicide.
(04:19):
Unheard of, especially if you are familiar with the method
and assessment of homicide and suicide. This ruling defies everything
that's logical. That is, let's take it from the beginning.
How the whole thing start. Take a listen, to our
dear friend, doctor Oz. Twenty seven year old Ellen Greenberg
(04:43):
was a first grade teacher in Philadelphia. She and her
boyfriend of three years had just become engaged and began
planning their wedding. January twenty six, two eleven, Ellen's school
let out early due to an oncoming blizzard. On her
way home, she up her guest think she was at
home with her fiance until four forty five pm, when
(05:05):
he reportedly went to the gym in their apartment competence.
When he arrived back to the apartment less than an
hour later, he says he found the apartment locked from
the inside. He claims he banged on the door and
received no response. Over the next twenty two minutes, he
would try to convince Helen to open the door through
text messages, he claims. He claims. He claims, according to
(05:26):
the fiance, he is with her until four forty five pm.
He goes to the gym right there in their apartment complex.
He comes less back less than one hour later, and
suddenly the door is locked from the inside, as I recall,
and I'm going to have to get the private investigator
(05:48):
to remind me. As I recall, she had been cooking dinner,
so in less than one hour everything has changed. She's
gone suicidal, stabbed herself twenty times, and she's dead in
the kitchen floor. To mister Greenberg, this is Ellen's father,
that's a lot to happen. And let's just say five, zero,
(06:11):
fifty minutes. When the fiance leaves the apartment, she's fine,
he works out, and by the time he gets back,
she's had a turn to commit suicide, has stabbed herself
twenty times, and is dead in the kitchen floor after
locking the doors. Now that's a lot to happen in
just fifty minutes, would you agree, mister Greenberg? I would agree,
(06:33):
and I would also point out the distribution of the
loans were ten from the front and ten from the back,
and somewhere upward on the back, which makes it even
more ridiculous. Wait a minute, let me get mister Greenberg.
This is Ellen's father, and you know how painful this
is for them to discuss their daughter's injuries. They are
(06:54):
on a mission, and I'm on the bandwagon, a mission
for justice because this is not a suicide. Side, mister Greenberg,
would you please repeat what you just said about the
injuries to the back. There were at least ten some
an upward direction, and there was what I would call
and probably has been labeled a pivotal wound that probably,
(07:17):
according to one of the experts we've hired to help
us through this thing, a forensic specialist, Wayne Ross, locally,
this was an upward direction that severed the spine and
entered her brain. I don't have to explain to many
people what happens when you sever the spine, what you're
(07:38):
capable of and had a brain injury. It just doesn't
make sense. Listen to what we learn from our friend
doctor Oz. At six thirty three pm, her fiance says
he forced opened the door to find Ellen dead on
the floor of the kitchen, stabbed twenty times in the chest, neck,
and head. It was a knife homaged in her chest.
(08:01):
Ellen was pronounced dead at six forty pm. Investigators evaluating
the scene and her autopsy ultimately stated that she died
by suicide. There were no obvious signs of an intruder
or evidence of a struggle. There was no suicide docte
as you just heard doctor As say, no suicide. Note,
(08:23):
but this young girl's death was ruled a suicide because
there was no forced entry. That doesn't even make any sense,
no sign of a struggle. Would there have been a
struggle if someone had approached her from behind very quickly?
To you, Daryl co informer prosecutor now defense attorney, how
many times did you or I? You and I open
(08:45):
a file and we see the victim is shot in
the back And when you say immediately, well, this is
not self defense and this is not a suicide, they're
shot in the back. For pete sake, there is no
forget the logic. First of all, women don't commit suicide
(09:06):
by stabbing themselves. No, they don't. Period. Now, if she
was trying to commit suicide, how in the world eight nine,
ten times impossible, physically, impossible, psychologically, it's not going to
happen with a woman. I don't understand where the Darrell
(09:26):
is talking about, and he's correct. Is over many many years,
statistics have been compiled that the bible on this is
method and assessment of homicide and suicide. And I had
to read that, Darrell. When a daughter of a law
partner here in Atlanta, who was the friend of our
(09:48):
late district attorneys death was first believed to be a suicide,
went to the scene. I had learned all about what's
a homicide, what's to suicide and why, and Darrel is right.
Agorically suicides are divided into gender, male versus female. Who
would use a gun, who would use a knife, who
(10:09):
would jump from a window, who would use poison? Who
would overdose? Who would turn on the gas and go
to sleep in sexy lingerie. I mean, you look at
it through gender, through age, through economic divisions, how people
actually commit suicide. And it is very rare that you're
(10:30):
gonna find a woman in Ellen's position, her age, her gender,
commits suicide in this manner. In fact, it's almost nonexistent.
But what I was trying to ask Daryl Cohen is
when we would open a file at the DA's office
and we see a victim is shot in the back,
we automatically know it's not there was not a self
(10:53):
defense shoot. And we know that because the person is
running away and we know that it's not a suicide.
It's just common sense crime stories. With Nancy Grace, I
(11:16):
want to go now to Brian she Hand. Brian is
it shean or she Hand? And Nancy at WHPTV Local
twenty one, could you just give me the facts, because,
as I recall, she's in the kitchen. Was she wasn't
she chopping something up? She was chopped From my knowledge, Nancy,
she was chopping. I believe it was a fruit salad
(11:38):
at the time, and the investigators claimed that she at
some point went from shopping the salad to then stabbing
herself erratically and was found against the cabinet on the
kitchen floor. Hold on, Brian, she and WHPTV. I just
got to go to our shrink, doctor Angela Arnold. I
mean that in a loving, caring way. She's a renowned
(12:00):
psychiatrist in the Atlanta jurisdiction at Angela Arnold MD dot com. Look,
I'm just a JD. You're the MD. But it struck
me that she stopped to get gas for her car.
Who's suicidal would be worried. They need gas in the
car for next week and there's an oncoming blizzard, so
they got to be ready. Who I think, Oh, before
(12:21):
I commit suicide, let me make a nice fruit salad.
And then suddenly, as they're chopping up the strawberries and
the apples, they go, you know, to hey, with the
fruit salad, I'm just gonna kill myself. It didn't happen
this way, Angela, in addition to the pure forensics, and
I know Joe Scott is chomping at the bit it
didn't happen this way. No, Nancy's there is no way
(12:44):
this woman committed suicide. Could anybody imagine taking a knife
and stabbing themselves in the back and going, oh, well,
that didn't do it. Now I'm going to stab myself
in the front and see if I die. I mean
after one stab or slice she would have been in
so much pain she could not have kept Also, there's
(13:06):
no way she could stab herself, as mister Greenberg said
in an upward and pivotal manner, in the back is
physically impossible. Angela. Oh, it doesn't make It doesn't make
any sense to me at all. And like you said,
fancy why in the world she when? Oh, you know,
there are certain signs before somebody commits suicide, all right,
(13:29):
right to stopping at gas in your car is not
a sign that you're planning on doing away with your
life and to be fixing the salad. Those are things
that you're moving ahead in life. There are other things
that people do. They leave suicide notes, they give things away,
they get ready to be gone. Okay, but the things
that she was doing were not indicative of things that
(13:52):
she was doing to be ready to be gone from
this earth. To Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor forensics, author of
Blood Beneath My Feet, he is a death investigator. Okay,
Joe Scott, hit me, you're gotta tell you Nancy looking
looking at the totality of the evidence here, just her
body alone. When you start to talk about this multiplicity
(14:16):
of wounds we're talking, you know, as mister Greenberg had
mentioned just a moment ago, these ten posterior are on
the back of her neck, injuries that she is sustained.
And slow down, slow down, okay, because mister miss Greenberg
and the PI, Tom Brennan and you as well as
(14:37):
Brian she and from WHP know this so well. For
the rest of us, it's like drinking from the fire hydrant.
It's too much, too fast. Now start with injuries to
the back of the neck. How you could stab yourself
in the back of the neck. It's impossible. Go ahead,
I don't see how it is, Nancy. And you know,
if our listeners will simply just reach behind your head,
(15:02):
okay and clasp your hands and get this idea that
when you do this and you make a downward motion,
and it is a downward motion. If you if you
bend at your elbows and come down with that, that
is going to give you a downward trajectory. It's not
going to be an upward trajectory. It's very simple. It's
(15:23):
not rocket signs. And for me, one of the one
of the most telling things throughout this is if if
you're listeners who are so bright, you know, we've got
so many listeners out there that are really tuned in,
if you will find a little nod on the back
of your skull and go down about the probably two inches,
you'll find the area where they're talking about. The second
(15:46):
vertebral are a cervicle of vertebral body. And the third
Nancy this blade that was later found obviously in her chest.
This blade actually passed through these two structures and Nick nicked, okay,
the spinal cord. If people will think about an electrical
(16:09):
chord at home, there's a rubber wrapping on the outside
of this, okay, And what that rubber wrapping is therefore,
is to protect you know, those pathways within the spinal
cord to control things at that level. At that level alone,
that's a lethal that that's lethal. It comes down to
the point where it's going to compromise your ability to
(16:30):
conduct motor function. So the fact that even in the O,
what you're saying and regular people taught is that once
that knifehood had been inflicted just below the knot on
your neck, yes, she wouldn't have been able to do
anything else. No, No, she couldn't. And that's what makes
(16:53):
it so very implied. Another thing I'm wondering about is
the sequence of events as played out. How did the
timing work and just the forty five to fifty minute
window the fiance was gone to work out that is
when she is overcome with a suicidal urge and she
(17:15):
locks herself in the apartment and commits suicide. Then the
fiance comes back and he breaks in to find her dead.
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, again, I'm Nancy Grace.
(17:42):
This is crime Stories. This case is screaming for justice.
I want you to listen to Ellen's parents who are
with us right now, to Sandy and Josh Greenberg. Miss Greenberg,
do you remember the day you learned your daughter had
(18:04):
passed away? What happened. We got a phone call on
our landline from Richard Goldberg saying that something terrible had
happened to Ellie. And I screamed from my husband to
pick up the other line, you know, so he could
hear too. And I said, where's the ambulance? And they
(18:27):
said there is no ambulance and I didn't quite I
kind of don't remember much more. We kind of blacked out.
It's like was I guess the word is shock? It
was like total shock. You know, you're not prepared for this.
You don't expect this. Why would this happen? And what's wrong?
(18:51):
And why are you calling? And why is there no ambulance?
Did you explain? Who is Richard? Richard is the father
of the fiancee. So the fiance what was the fiance's name, Samuel,
yes Goldberg? Sorry, the fiance calls his father. No, that
(19:11):
Beyonce did not call his father called no, no Jeh
And I what I think the answer? What your question is,
does that mean that the fiance didn't call us? That
the fiance called his father, and we do know he
also called some other relatives, which we can get into
if you want. I do oh, I want to do
you mean he called some of his own relatives or
(19:33):
Ellen's relatives. No, he didn't call us. We after this
whole thing had started and turned around and we started investigating.
It led us on a trail, or it's leading us
on a trail that is not very pretty. He called
his uncle. His uncle happens to be a attorney in Philadelphia,
(19:54):
very well known attorney in Philadelphia. And I think he
called his cousin the uncle's one. Also, did he ever
call nine one one? Yes, there is a nine one
one call. I can't tell you the sequence because I'm
not I don't have the facts. Tom may have a
better knowledge. Tom on that, Tom Brennan, he is the
(20:16):
PI for the Greenberg's Tom Brennan, thank you for being
with us. Tom. How many people did the boyfriend call
Samuel Goldberg? I'll be referring to him as Goldberg. There's
Ellen Greenberg fiance, Samuel Goldberg, So to you, Tom Brennan.
(20:37):
How many people did the fiance call before he called
Ellen's parents? Approximately four? Where did nine one one fit
into this scenario that we could identify? What you have
to understand is there were several trips why the fiance
(20:59):
up to the apartment door and back down to the
concierge desk during this period of time, and he was
approaching the concierge to get him to help him enter
the apartment. The concierge refused because it was against company
policy and informed the fiance of that that he could
(21:23):
not do that. There there's statements saying by the fiance
saying that he was accompanied, but we were able to
prove that he was unaccompanied when the entry was made.
And if you take a look at the film, the
crime scene photographs and take a look at the swing
(21:47):
walk on the apartment door, on the interior of the
apartment door, that is very very telling. If in fact
you hit that lock okay, as supposedly was done, then
one or the other portion of that lock would have
(22:08):
to become completely dislodged in order for that lock to open.
If you take a look at the crime scene photographs,
both pieces the piece that's mounted on the door and
the piece that's mounted on the door gem are still there,
are still intact, still intact. To Brian she and WHPTV
(22:29):
Local twenty one, Brian, I'm trying to identify how many
calls we believe the fiancee, who is not a suspect
has not been named a suspect by police. How many
calls did he make before he got a hold before
(22:50):
he died the parents who called nine one one and
was nine one one the first call? May do you
know that? Brian? You know, I do not know that.
I as you know you mentioned, and as the Greenberg said,
there were several phone calls that were made the sequence
of events. I did not have that as part of
our investigation that we did. Give me your input, Brian,
(23:13):
she and she and what sticks out to you? Oh?
I mean, where do you begin? I mean, when I
first looked at this case, you know, more than a
year ago, and remember I came in nine years later,
so we didn't have a lot of the material A
lot of the materials provided to mean buy the Greenbergs
and their attorney and mister Brennan. But you just look
(23:33):
at the sequence of events. You know. When I first
heard the case, I thought, you know, I didn't know
all the details. So I thought, you know, there's a
twenty seven year old woman who commits suicide. You hear
her parents don't believe it. You think, okay, she was
an only child. The parents can't understand or wrap their
mind around the fact that their daughter would tragically take
her own life. Then you just take a look at
(23:54):
the fact that there was twenty stab wounds, and then,
as we have discussed, where the were the sequence of
events in terms of filling up her gas tank, coming home,
making a salad, and then erratically allegedly starting to stab
herself twenty times to kill herself with no warning signs,
no apparent warning signs, and there were some And I
(24:18):
don't know how much you want to get into this,
but from the office of the Attorney General here in Pennsylvania,
who the case was referred to later, I don't know
how it was in twenty eleven. I'm sorry they received
the case in twenty eighteen for a conflict referral. I
don't know how much you want to get into that,
but that is something that we did include in our
(24:40):
story as well. And they're reasoning for the suicide. I
know that she had had anxiety, but why anxiety? What
was giving her anxiety? Didn't have anything to do with
her engagement. I'm curious why did she have anxiety? And
anxiety we all all have anxiety that is not suicidal ideation.
(25:05):
So I still am not understand jump in the diagnosis.
Ellen's was not behaving the way we normally said. If
my wife wanted to insult Ellen, she said she would
behave like me. That's not a compliment, by the way.
We so Ellen and I, because Ellen, something we haven't
touched on, had said you want to come home, we
(25:26):
arranged I'm in a deal if Ellen saw a psychiatrist
who because I could not handle what was wrong with her,
I could not treat her. I didn't have the knowledge.
And the psychiatrist said, yes, you can come home. And
this day after we had just sent out the whole
the state for a gate a wedding. Her diagnosis was
an adjustment disorder with anxiety, not even a depressive disorder.
(26:02):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we're talking about the
death of a beautiful young girl, just twenty seven years old.
Teacher just got home from work, a blizzard was coming.
She starts to get gash. She's in her apartment making
a fruit salad. Her fiance, who is not a suspect
named by police, says he goes to exercise, comes back.
(26:26):
She has stabbed herself twenty times, including in the back,
the back of the neck and has a knife lodged
in her chest there in the kitchen. Police say they
decided it was suicide because the door had been locked
according to the fiance, and the fiance was still on
the scene. We are learning also that Goldberg was stracted
(26:52):
to start CPR. That's when he noticed there was a
knife in her chest. He did not notice it before then. Also,
he tried to get the security guard to come up
and break the lock. The security guard wouldn't do it.
He is the one that forced the door open, and
then he called nine one one, So if anyone knew
(27:15):
about the position of the lock, it would have been
the fiance. Guys, listen to this. She was stabbed twenty times.
Half of the wounds to the back of her neck.
You talked to any reasonable person and they all say,
what the hell is going on. Tom Brennan logged twenty
five years with the Pennsylvania State Police and worked at
(27:37):
the FBI's Behavioral Science Unit in Quantico, Virginia. Now retired,
he has worked nearly seven years pro bono with the
Greenberg's investigating Ellen's death. Aide, but the medical examiner's report
says there was no sign of a struggle. Nothing was
obviously missing or disturbed. Only Ellen's DNA was found on
the knife in her chest, and Ellen had no defense
(27:59):
injuries to her hands or forearms. Still, Brennan says, none
of that proves this was suicide. Didn't they ever hear
a blitz where a victim doesn't get the opportunity to
defend themselves, such as someone standing at the kitchen sink
making a fruit salad and is attacked from behind. Many
of the attack marks were on the back of the neck,
(28:23):
at least half of them, indicating an attack from behind.
You were just hearing CBS three Philly News reporter Jankabeo speaking.
Then amazingly, the cause of death is then changed straight
(28:43):
out to Sandy Greenberg, this is Ellen's mother. Why was
the cause of death changed? Honestly, I don't know, and
we were never really we never got phone calls from
the Philadelphia Police or the Medical Examiner's office that this
(29:04):
was changed, which was not very personal, but a lot
of it is a big blur to me. I'd like
to just want to mention one other thing in the
forensic investigation. There are two type of knife wounds mentioned.
(29:24):
A smooth edge and a serrated edge knife wound, and
that hasn't come up. But I'm glad you said that.
I want to mention screenber because to you, Joseph Scott Morgan,
Professor forensic's death investigator, how could one person stab themselves
with two different types of knives. It's highly implausible, Nancy.
(29:46):
I don't see how this would actually occur. And I
have to say that based upon what you had put forward,
you know, her standing at the sink and being attacked
from the rear, that's a very plausible. And since that
that wound that I had mentioned earlier, this one at
the C C two C three level, Uh, you know
(30:07):
that's enough to incapacitate her at that moment in Tom,
I would think interestingly enough, and let me just throw
this in as well. Uh, Doctor, I believe it's Rourke Adams,
who is one of the most highly respected former neuropathologists.
That means that she studies diseases and injuries of the
brain and the spinal reports. Specifically, she is said to
(30:31):
have reviewed this report. Okay, and it's even stated in
the in the autopsy report, Doctor Roorke has no recollection
of this from my understanding, and so Yeah. Should I
interrupt you there? Yes, yes, sir, I want I want
everybody to understand. Okay, that paragraph identified as the examination
(30:53):
by doctor Rorke. Yes, doctor Rorke has denied any knowledge
of the case at all. She never she can't recall
taking a look at the specimen, she can't recall the
name of the name of the victim. And she stated
that she would have if in fact she did the examination,
(31:17):
she would have submitted an invoice along with her report.
There is no invoice, and there is no copy of
the report, and in that paragraph even her name is misspelled.
Me talking about that. Okay, Tom, you're telling me the
medical examiner has no recollection of this. Yes, what I'm
(31:39):
telling you is doctor ror in my opinion, that paragraph
that's contained in that autosity report disfraudment. The part about
that from well Jeff Scott Morgan, you're hearing what he's
saying about doctor Rorry. I just don't understand why. Yeah,
if just let me tell you kind of how this works.
(32:00):
You know, I worked for the Emmy in Atlanta in
the Corner and New Orleans, and when we would consult
with a neuropathologist, and we did a lot. Okay, we
would send specimens out to any local emory. I mean
to any local medical school where one of these people were.
This is highly specialized. Yeah, and your employee is. My
point is is that this is evidence, Nancy, and that
(32:23):
there is a linkage between this. You signed these things in,
you signed them out, and the fact that she did
not invoice them. There is no record of this. This
is very troubling. Well, I think what you're trying to
get act is not just put it in regular people talk,
is that she did not do the work on the case.
And even her name is misspelled. Guys, take a listen
(32:46):
to our friends at Oxygen. When the autopsy was over,
the medical examiner issued a ruling that directly contradicted the
initial findings of police investigators, the medical examiner, and leave
it was a homicide. One of the most striking things
was the fact that a knife was still embedded in
this young woman's chest. There is a significant degree of
(33:08):
force probably needed to inflect that type of loot that
certainly is indicative of a homicide. The emmy's homicide ruling
officially turned Ellen's case into a murder investigation, but then
three months after her dad the Emmy changes the ruling
from a homicide to suicide. To you, Tom Brennan in
(33:30):
a nutshell, what have you learned as to why suddenly
a medical examiner would reverse themselves and go with suicide? Well,
from day one, the police walked into the apartment, took
a look around, set suicide and left. They even left
the apartment unprotected. Okay, they didn't secure the crime scene.
(33:55):
Following that, the following morning, the prominent attorney uncle and
his son entered the apartment and removed the victim's cell phone,
the victims laptop, the victims work laptop, and the piance's laptop.
The police didn't retrieve those items until January twenty nine.
(34:16):
So what does that tell you about evidence? Okay, on
any of those items. To Sandy Greenberg, this is Ellen's mom, Sandy,
what justification was given to you about why the ruling
was changed from homicide to suicide? That she had no
defensive wounds and I think they said something about blood
(34:41):
on her no blood on her? Nan, This is Josh Greenberg.
I'm sorry interrupt Yes, sir, Tom interviewed doctor Osborne who
changed it, and Tom can, I'm sure give you what
to what he learned from doctor Osborne and why he
changed Tom was over a conference call with doctor Osbourne.
(35:05):
My last question to doctor Osborne was why did you
change the cause and manner of death from homicide to suicide?
He said, I did it at the insistence of the police.
I said, did any of those police officers have a
degree in pathology? And with that the conversation ended. Let
me go straight out to Daryl Cohen, a former prosecutor.
(35:30):
What can be done now? The Greenbergs are going forward
with a civil lawsuit, but how can the killer be
brought to justice? Is this going to require the federal
government stepping in? Nancy? I think, excuse me, I think
that a special prosecutor will be what's in order. As
(35:53):
we all know, there is not a statue of limitations
on murder. But we've got to find the perpetrator. We've
got to find the person who killed her. Okay, let
me try to rephrase it, Daryl. The local DA is
not acting, The AG is not acting. What is the
next choice? Now that I've put it to you like that,
(36:13):
would you agree that this is going to involve federal intervention? No?
I wouldn't necessarily. Okay, then what can they do? Agree?
But Nancy, Nancy, what I would say is, first of all,
we need to have a ground swell the court of
public opinion. If you can go to a local station,
(36:33):
television station or stations, and their reporter who you need
to cozy up to, will put a piece or two,
or five or ten on air. That gets to the
local DA that gets to everybody else, because these people
are elected, not selected, and they know that if there's
an unsolved murder, not death, but murder, then they're going
(36:57):
to start paying attention. But you've got to get this swell,
So go to the press, go to social media, go
to every possible outlet you can go to to get
this ground swell moving. I want to go to Josh Greenberg,
this is Ellen's dad. Tell me what you hope to
gain through your civil lawsuit? Okay, we're my goal, my
(37:21):
mission here. My purpose is to get justice for Ellen
and yes see that the proper things happen. The lawsuit
against the medical examiner is to try to get the
certificate of death changed from suicide to homicide. We are
often I forgot who said that before me. That's what
we're doing. We have we have as you cut to
(37:45):
various pieces during this piece very eloquently. I might add,
we've been on Doctor Oz, We've had Bryan she and
locally we've had Janitor Cabayo. I hope I pronounced the
names right. We've run on inside Edition and now being
here with you and having these experts who we have nothing,
who we did not hire or pay for, say what
(38:07):
they have said. We're hoping this will help us go forward.
We also do know, through documentation or the discovery, that
the authorities in Philadelphia are aware of our media efforts.
It's the same district attorney in office. No, okay, that's
a good sign. No, no, not a sign. Why let
(38:30):
me explain. The fellow who's now the district attorney in
Philadelphia was our attorney at the beginning of this The
reason that we went to the Attorney General, which we
thought would be a better place to be. He had
to recuse himself because he our attorney. So we went
to the Attorney General. And I have a special place
(38:50):
in my heart for the Attorney General because the way
he handled this case, the lack of thoroughness, the lack
of professionalism, the lack of anything to do with this case.
I had an attorney who was a former Attorney General
for the Conwealth of Pennsylvania, approached this gentleman and asked
(39:11):
if he wanted our documentation, and our documentation nancies. You'll
know when I mentioned these names, Henry Lee, Cyril Wept,
and Wayne Ross, included their expert opinions, and included Tom's
investigation investigation photographs. It includes a whole mountain of evidence.
As I would say, we asked him to go to
speak to Cyril Cyril webb Son, I believe that had
(39:33):
helped him get elected. He said no, and he came
back saying that the cause of the computer search, which
he did not do he doesn't have the ability of
facacity or the budget to do, proves that Ellen committed suicide.
And we've already discussed those computers, that the chain of
custody was broken. Guys, we were talking about the death
(39:56):
of a beautiful young girl. I'm convinced in my heart
she was murdered, and my heart and in my head
we wait as justice unfalls in the death of Ellen Greenberg.
Nancy Grace Crimes story signing off Goodbye for me,
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. How can a beautiful, brilliant,
twenty seven year old woman die of twenty stab wounds
and it's a suicide. I'm not buying it? And her
(00:28):
parents agree Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. As the world
whizzes by around us, between politics and this and that,
(00:52):
this family is leading a crusade for justice, won't you
join us? Let me tell you what happened. First of all,
take a listen to this. Nearly a decade of long
days and late night thoughts, but for Josh and Sandy Greenberg,
it's been worth every minute. We didn't go away, and
(01:12):
we're not going away. For years, the couple struggled to
get anyone to reinvestigate the death of their twenty seven
year old daughter, Ellen, elementary school teacher living in Philadelphia
with her fiancee, and the break we had in this
whole thing. Then just last month, a small victory, a
Philadelphia judge ruled the couple could move forward with a
lawsuit against the city's medical examiner in an attempt to
(01:34):
get her official cause of death removed from the record.
As a murderer out there, a killer, somebody who brutally
attacks somebody with a multiple stab wounds and let her
bleed to death and left her for dead. Though that's
not how the city sees it. Instead, investigators concluded Ellen
stabbed herself twenty times in her kitchen. You're hearing our
(01:58):
friend Brian she And at Local twenty one news, what
happened to Ellen? Well, I can tell you this much.
She did not commit suicide by stabbing herself twenty times
in her kitchen floor. That did not happen. With me
an all star panel to break it down and put
it back together again. First of all, Daryl Cohen, former
(02:19):
prosecutor in Inner City Atlanta, now defense attorney, doctor Angela Arnold,
renowned psychiatrists joining us from the Atlanta jurisdiction at Angela
Arnold MD dot com. The private investigator for the Greenberg family.
Tom Brennan. He's been on the case trying to turn
the tide toward justice for years now. Joseph Scott Morgan,
(02:41):
Professor forensics at Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath
My Feet on Amazon, now the star of a new
hit series, Poisonous Liaisons on the True Crime Network. Brian
she And whose voice you just heard at WHPTV Local
twenty one, and two very special guests that we have
been longing to hear from, Sandy and Josh Greenberg. These
(03:07):
are Ellen's parents. Welcome to everyone, but first to Sandy
and Josh Greenberg. I can't tell you how much it
means to us to have you with us today. First
of all, our condolences to you for what you've been through,
not only when you lost your daughter, but having to
fight this fight for so many years. Missus Greenberg, I
(03:31):
just what was your reaction when you learned that your
daughter's death was ruled a suicide. It was tragic. It's
like the curtain went down, the world turned upside down,
and we were heartbroken. We were devastated, and it took
(03:59):
a lot of wording out because that was a very
low point in our lives. I just don't understand how
anybody in their right mind could believe with twenty stab
wounds that could possibly in any way be a suicide.
(04:19):
Unheard of, especially if you are familiar with the method
and assessment of homicide and suicide. This ruling defies everything
that's logical. That is, let's take it from the beginning.
How the whole thing start. Take a listen, to our
dear friend, doctor Oz. Twenty seven year old Ellen Greenberg
(04:43):
was a first grade teacher in Philadelphia. She and her
boyfriend of three years had just become engaged and began
planning their wedding. January twenty six, two eleven, Ellen's school
let out early due to an oncoming blizzard. On her
way home, she up her guest think she was at
home with her fiance until four forty five pm, when
(05:05):
he reportedly went to the gym in their apartment competence.
When he arrived back to the apartment less than an
hour later, he says he found the apartment locked from
the inside. He claims he banged on the door and
received no response. Over the next twenty two minutes, he
would try to convince Helen to open the door through
text messages, he claims. He claims. He claims, according to
(05:26):
the fiance, he is with her until four forty five pm.
He goes to the gym right there in their apartment complex.
He comes less back less than one hour later, and
suddenly the door is locked from the inside, as I recall,
and I'm going to have to get the private investigator
(05:48):
to remind me. As I recall, she had been cooking dinner,
so in less than one hour everything has changed. She's
gone suicidal, stabbed herself twenty times, and she's dead in
the kitchen floor. To mister Greenberg, this is Ellen's father,
that's a lot to happen. And let's just say five, zero,
(06:11):
fifty minutes. When the fiance leaves the apartment, she's fine,
he works out, and by the time he gets back,
she's had a turn to commit suicide, has stabbed herself
twenty times, and is dead in the kitchen floor after
locking the doors. Now that's a lot to happen in
just fifty minutes, would you agree, mister Greenberg? I would agree,
(06:33):
and I would also point out the distribution of the
loans were ten from the front and ten from the back,
and somewhere upward on the back, which makes it even
more ridiculous. Wait a minute, let me get mister Greenberg.
This is Ellen's father, and you know how painful this
is for them to discuss their daughter's injuries. They are
(06:54):
on a mission, and I'm on the bandwagon, a mission
for justice because this is not a suicide. Side, mister Greenberg,
would you please repeat what you just said about the
injuries to the back. There were at least ten some
an upward direction, and there was what I would call
and probably has been labeled a pivotal wound that probably,
(07:17):
according to one of the experts we've hired to help
us through this thing, a forensic specialist, Wayne Ross, locally,
this was an upward direction that severed the spine and
entered her brain. I don't have to explain to many
people what happens when you sever the spine, what you're
(07:38):
capable of and had a brain injury. It just doesn't
make sense. Listen to what we learn from our friend
doctor Oz. At six thirty three pm, her fiance says
he forced opened the door to find Ellen dead on
the floor of the kitchen, stabbed twenty times in the chest, neck,
and head. It was a knife homaged in her chest.
(08:01):
Ellen was pronounced dead at six forty pm. Investigators evaluating
the scene and her autopsy ultimately stated that she died
by suicide. There were no obvious signs of an intruder
or evidence of a struggle. There was no suicide docte
as you just heard doctor As say, no suicide. Note,
(08:23):
but this young girl's death was ruled a suicide because
there was no forced entry. That doesn't even make any sense,
no sign of a struggle. Would there have been a
struggle if someone had approached her from behind very quickly?
To you, Daryl co informer prosecutor now defense attorney, how
many times did you or I? You and I open
(08:45):
a file and we see the victim is shot in
the back And when you say immediately, well, this is
not self defense and this is not a suicide, they're
shot in the back. For pete sake, there is no
forget the logic. First of all, women don't commit suicide
(09:06):
by stabbing themselves. No, they don't. Period. Now, if she
was trying to commit suicide, how in the world eight nine,
ten times impossible, physically, impossible, psychologically, it's not going to
happen with a woman. I don't understand where the Darrell
(09:26):
is talking about, and he's correct. Is over many many years,
statistics have been compiled that the bible on this is
method and assessment of homicide and suicide. And I had
to read that, Darrell. When a daughter of a law
partner here in Atlanta, who was the friend of our
(09:48):
late district attorneys death was first believed to be a suicide,
went to the scene. I had learned all about what's
a homicide, what's to suicide and why, and Darrel is right.
Agorically suicides are divided into gender, male versus female. Who
would use a gun, who would use a knife, who
(10:09):
would jump from a window, who would use poison? Who
would overdose? Who would turn on the gas and go
to sleep in sexy lingerie. I mean, you look at
it through gender, through age, through economic divisions, how people
actually commit suicide. And it is very rare that you're
(10:30):
gonna find a woman in Ellen's position, her age, her gender,
commits suicide in this manner. In fact, it's almost nonexistent.
But what I was trying to ask Daryl Cohen is
when we would open a file at the DA's office
and we see a victim is shot in the back,
we automatically know it's not there was not a self
(10:53):
defense shoot. And we know that because the person is
running away and we know that it's not a suicide.
It's just common sense crime stories. With Nancy Grace, I
(11:16):
want to go now to Brian she Hand. Brian is
it shean or she Hand? And Nancy at WHPTV Local
twenty one, could you just give me the facts, because,
as I recall, she's in the kitchen. Was she wasn't
she chopping something up? She was chopped From my knowledge, Nancy,
she was chopping. I believe it was a fruit salad
(11:38):
at the time, and the investigators claimed that she at
some point went from shopping the salad to then stabbing
herself erratically and was found against the cabinet on the
kitchen floor. Hold on, Brian, she and WHPTV. I just
got to go to our shrink, doctor Angela Arnold. I
mean that in a loving, caring way. She's a renowned
(12:00):
psychiatrist in the Atlanta jurisdiction at Angela Arnold MD dot com. Look,
I'm just a JD. You're the MD. But it struck
me that she stopped to get gas for her car.
Who's suicidal would be worried. They need gas in the
car for next week and there's an oncoming blizzard, so
they got to be ready. Who I think, Oh, before
(12:21):
I commit suicide, let me make a nice fruit salad.
And then suddenly, as they're chopping up the strawberries and
the apples, they go, you know, to hey, with the
fruit salad, I'm just gonna kill myself. It didn't happen
this way, Angela, in addition to the pure forensics, and
I know Joe Scott is chomping at the bit it
didn't happen this way. No, Nancy's there is no way
(12:44):
this woman committed suicide. Could anybody imagine taking a knife
and stabbing themselves in the back and going, oh, well,
that didn't do it. Now I'm going to stab myself
in the front and see if I die. I mean
after one stab or slice she would have been in
so much pain she could not have kept Also, there's
(13:06):
no way she could stab herself, as mister Greenberg said
in an upward and pivotal manner, in the back is
physically impossible. Angela. Oh, it doesn't make It doesn't make
any sense to me at all. And like you said,
fancy why in the world she when? Oh, you know,
there are certain signs before somebody commits suicide, all right,
(13:29):
right to stopping at gas in your car is not
a sign that you're planning on doing away with your
life and to be fixing the salad. Those are things
that you're moving ahead in life. There are other things
that people do. They leave suicide notes, they give things away,
they get ready to be gone. Okay, but the things
that she was doing were not indicative of things that
(13:52):
she was doing to be ready to be gone from
this earth. To Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor forensics, author of
Blood Beneath My Feet, he is a death investigator. Okay,
Joe Scott, hit me, you're gotta tell you Nancy looking
looking at the totality of the evidence here, just her
body alone. When you start to talk about this multiplicity
(14:16):
of wounds we're talking, you know, as mister Greenberg had
mentioned just a moment ago, these ten posterior are on
the back of her neck, injuries that she is sustained.
And slow down, slow down, okay, because mister miss Greenberg
and the PI, Tom Brennan and you as well as
(14:37):
Brian she and from WHP know this so well. For
the rest of us, it's like drinking from the fire hydrant.
It's too much, too fast. Now start with injuries to
the back of the neck. How you could stab yourself
in the back of the neck. It's impossible. Go ahead,
I don't see how it is, Nancy. And you know,
if our listeners will simply just reach behind your head,
(15:02):
okay and clasp your hands and get this idea that
when you do this and you make a downward motion,
and it is a downward motion. If you if you
bend at your elbows and come down with that, that
is going to give you a downward trajectory. It's not
going to be an upward trajectory. It's very simple. It's
(15:23):
not rocket signs. And for me, one of the one
of the most telling things throughout this is if if
you're listeners who are so bright, you know, we've got
so many listeners out there that are really tuned in,
if you will find a little nod on the back
of your skull and go down about the probably two inches,
you'll find the area where they're talking about. The second
(15:46):
vertebral are a cervicle of vertebral body. And the third
Nancy this blade that was later found obviously in her chest.
This blade actually passed through these two structures and Nick nicked, okay,
the spinal cord. If people will think about an electrical
(16:09):
chord at home, there's a rubber wrapping on the outside
of this, okay, And what that rubber wrapping is therefore,
is to protect you know, those pathways within the spinal
cord to control things at that level. At that level alone,
that's a lethal that that's lethal. It comes down to
the point where it's going to compromise your ability to
(16:30):
conduct motor function. So the fact that even in the O,
what you're saying and regular people taught is that once
that knifehood had been inflicted just below the knot on
your neck, yes, she wouldn't have been able to do
anything else. No, No, she couldn't. And that's what makes
(16:53):
it so very implied. Another thing I'm wondering about is
the sequence of events as played out. How did the
timing work and just the forty five to fifty minute
window the fiance was gone to work out that is
when she is overcome with a suicidal urge and she
(17:15):
locks herself in the apartment and commits suicide. Then the
fiance comes back and he breaks in to find her dead.
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, again, I'm Nancy Grace.
(17:42):
This is crime Stories. This case is screaming for justice.
I want you to listen to Ellen's parents who are
with us right now, to Sandy and Josh Greenberg. Miss Greenberg,
do you remember the day you learned your daughter had
(18:04):
passed away? What happened. We got a phone call on
our landline from Richard Goldberg saying that something terrible had
happened to Ellie. And I screamed from my husband to
pick up the other line, you know, so he could
hear too. And I said, where's the ambulance? And they
(18:27):
said there is no ambulance and I didn't quite I
kind of don't remember much more. We kind of blacked out.
It's like was I guess the word is shock? It
was like total shock. You know, you're not prepared for this.
You don't expect this. Why would this happen? And what's wrong?
(18:51):
And why are you calling? And why is there no ambulance?
Did you explain? Who is Richard? Richard is the father
of the fiancee. So the fiance what was the fiance's name, Samuel,
yes Goldberg? Sorry, the fiance calls his father. No, that
(19:11):
Beyonce did not call his father called no, no Jeh
And I what I think the answer? What your question is,
does that mean that the fiance didn't call us? That
the fiance called his father, and we do know he
also called some other relatives, which we can get into
if you want. I do oh, I want to do
you mean he called some of his own relatives or
(19:33):
Ellen's relatives. No, he didn't call us. We after this
whole thing had started and turned around and we started investigating.
It led us on a trail, or it's leading us
on a trail that is not very pretty. He called
his uncle. His uncle happens to be a attorney in Philadelphia,
(19:54):
very well known attorney in Philadelphia. And I think he
called his cousin the uncle's one. Also, did he ever
call nine one one? Yes, there is a nine one
one call. I can't tell you the sequence because I'm
not I don't have the facts. Tom may have a
better knowledge. Tom on that, Tom Brennan, he is the
(20:16):
PI for the Greenberg's Tom Brennan, thank you for being
with us. Tom. How many people did the boyfriend call
Samuel Goldberg? I'll be referring to him as Goldberg. There's
Ellen Greenberg fiance, Samuel Goldberg, So to you, Tom Brennan.
(20:37):
How many people did the fiance call before he called
Ellen's parents? Approximately four? Where did nine one one fit
into this scenario that we could identify? What you have
to understand is there were several trips why the fiance
(20:59):
up to the apartment door and back down to the
concierge desk during this period of time, and he was
approaching the concierge to get him to help him enter
the apartment. The concierge refused because it was against company
policy and informed the fiance of that that he could
(21:23):
not do that. There there's statements saying by the fiance
saying that he was accompanied, but we were able to
prove that he was unaccompanied when the entry was made.
And if you take a look at the film, the
crime scene photographs and take a look at the swing
(21:47):
walk on the apartment door, on the interior of the
apartment door, that is very very telling. If in fact
you hit that lock okay, as supposedly was done, then
one or the other portion of that lock would have
(22:08):
to become completely dislodged in order for that lock to open.
If you take a look at the crime scene photographs,
both pieces the piece that's mounted on the door and
the piece that's mounted on the door gem are still there,
are still intact, still intact. To Brian she and WHPTV
(22:29):
Local twenty one, Brian, I'm trying to identify how many
calls we believe the fiancee, who is not a suspect
has not been named a suspect by police. How many
calls did he make before he got a hold before
(22:50):
he died the parents who called nine one one and
was nine one one the first call? May do you
know that? Brian? You know, I do not know that.
I as you know you mentioned, and as the Greenberg said,
there were several phone calls that were made the sequence
of events. I did not have that as part of
our investigation that we did. Give me your input, Brian,
(23:13):
she and she and what sticks out to you? Oh?
I mean, where do you begin? I mean, when I
first looked at this case, you know, more than a
year ago, and remember I came in nine years later,
so we didn't have a lot of the material A
lot of the materials provided to mean buy the Greenbergs
and their attorney and mister Brennan. But you just look
(23:33):
at the sequence of events. You know. When I first
heard the case, I thought, you know, I didn't know
all the details. So I thought, you know, there's a
twenty seven year old woman who commits suicide. You hear
her parents don't believe it. You think, okay, she was
an only child. The parents can't understand or wrap their
mind around the fact that their daughter would tragically take
her own life. Then you just take a look at
(23:54):
the fact that there was twenty stab wounds, and then,
as we have discussed, where the were the sequence of
events in terms of filling up her gas tank, coming home,
making a salad, and then erratically allegedly starting to stab
herself twenty times to kill herself with no warning signs,
no apparent warning signs, and there were some And I
(24:18):
don't know how much you want to get into this,
but from the office of the Attorney General here in Pennsylvania,
who the case was referred to later, I don't know
how it was in twenty eleven. I'm sorry they received
the case in twenty eighteen for a conflict referral. I
don't know how much you want to get into that,
but that is something that we did include in our
(24:40):
story as well. And they're reasoning for the suicide. I
know that she had had anxiety, but why anxiety? What
was giving her anxiety? Didn't have anything to do with
her engagement. I'm curious why did she have anxiety? And
anxiety we all all have anxiety that is not suicidal ideation.
(25:05):
So I still am not understand jump in the diagnosis.
Ellen's was not behaving the way we normally said. If
my wife wanted to insult Ellen, she said she would
behave like me. That's not a compliment, by the way.
We so Ellen and I, because Ellen, something we haven't
touched on, had said you want to come home, we
(25:26):
arranged I'm in a deal if Ellen saw a psychiatrist
who because I could not handle what was wrong with her,
I could not treat her. I didn't have the knowledge.
And the psychiatrist said, yes, you can come home. And
this day after we had just sent out the whole
the state for a gate a wedding. Her diagnosis was
an adjustment disorder with anxiety, not even a depressive disorder.
(26:02):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we're talking about the
death of a beautiful young girl, just twenty seven years old.
Teacher just got home from work, a blizzard was coming.
She starts to get gash. She's in her apartment making
a fruit salad. Her fiance, who is not a suspect
named by police, says he goes to exercise, comes back.
(26:26):
She has stabbed herself twenty times, including in the back,
the back of the neck and has a knife lodged
in her chest there in the kitchen. Police say they
decided it was suicide because the door had been locked
according to the fiance, and the fiance was still on
the scene. We are learning also that Goldberg was stracted
(26:52):
to start CPR. That's when he noticed there was a
knife in her chest. He did not notice it before then. Also,
he tried to get the security guard to come up
and break the lock. The security guard wouldn't do it.
He is the one that forced the door open, and
then he called nine one one, So if anyone knew
(27:15):
about the position of the lock, it would have been
the fiance. Guys, listen to this. She was stabbed twenty times.
Half of the wounds to the back of her neck.
You talked to any reasonable person and they all say,
what the hell is going on. Tom Brennan logged twenty
five years with the Pennsylvania State Police and worked at
(27:37):
the FBI's Behavioral Science Unit in Quantico, Virginia. Now retired,
he has worked nearly seven years pro bono with the
Greenberg's investigating Ellen's death. Aide, but the medical examiner's report
says there was no sign of a struggle. Nothing was
obviously missing or disturbed. Only Ellen's DNA was found on
the knife in her chest, and Ellen had no defense
(27:59):
injuries to her hands or forearms. Still, Brennan says, none
of that proves this was suicide. Didn't they ever hear
a blitz where a victim doesn't get the opportunity to
defend themselves, such as someone standing at the kitchen sink
making a fruit salad and is attacked from behind. Many
of the attack marks were on the back of the neck,
(28:23):
at least half of them, indicating an attack from behind.
You were just hearing CBS three Philly News reporter Jankabeo speaking.
Then amazingly, the cause of death is then changed straight
(28:43):
out to Sandy Greenberg, this is Ellen's mother. Why was
the cause of death changed? Honestly, I don't know, and
we were never really we never got phone calls from
the Philadelphia Police or the Medical Examiner's office that this
(29:04):
was changed, which was not very personal, but a lot
of it is a big blur to me. I'd like
to just want to mention one other thing in the
forensic investigation. There are two type of knife wounds mentioned.
(29:24):
A smooth edge and a serrated edge knife wound, and
that hasn't come up. But I'm glad you said that.
I want to mention screenber because to you, Joseph Scott Morgan,
Professor forensic's death investigator, how could one person stab themselves
with two different types of knives. It's highly implausible, Nancy.
(29:46):
I don't see how this would actually occur. And I
have to say that based upon what you had put forward,
you know, her standing at the sink and being attacked
from the rear, that's a very plausible. And since that
that wound that I had mentioned earlier, this one at
the C C two C three level, Uh, you know
(30:07):
that's enough to incapacitate her at that moment in Tom,
I would think interestingly enough, and let me just throw
this in as well. Uh, Doctor, I believe it's Rourke Adams,
who is one of the most highly respected former neuropathologists.
That means that she studies diseases and injuries of the
brain and the spinal reports. Specifically, she is said to
(30:31):
have reviewed this report. Okay, and it's even stated in
the in the autopsy report, Doctor Roorke has no recollection
of this from my understanding, and so Yeah. Should I
interrupt you there? Yes, yes, sir, I want I want
everybody to understand. Okay, that paragraph identified as the examination
(30:53):
by doctor Rorke. Yes, doctor Rorke has denied any knowledge
of the case at all. She never she can't recall
taking a look at the specimen, she can't recall the
name of the name of the victim. And she stated
that she would have if in fact she did the examination,
(31:17):
she would have submitted an invoice along with her report.
There is no invoice, and there is no copy of
the report, and in that paragraph even her name is misspelled.
Me talking about that. Okay, Tom, you're telling me the
medical examiner has no recollection of this. Yes, what I'm
(31:39):
telling you is doctor ror in my opinion, that paragraph
that's contained in that autosity report disfraudment. The part about
that from well Jeff Scott Morgan, you're hearing what he's
saying about doctor Rorry. I just don't understand why. Yeah,
if just let me tell you kind of how this works.
(32:00):
You know, I worked for the Emmy in Atlanta in
the Corner and New Orleans, and when we would consult
with a neuropathologist, and we did a lot. Okay, we
would send specimens out to any local emory. I mean
to any local medical school where one of these people were.
This is highly specialized. Yeah, and your employee is. My
point is is that this is evidence, Nancy, and that
(32:23):
there is a linkage between this. You signed these things in,
you signed them out, and the fact that she did
not invoice them. There is no record of this. This
is very troubling. Well, I think what you're trying to
get act is not just put it in regular people talk,
is that she did not do the work on the case.
And even her name is misspelled. Guys, take a listen
(32:46):
to our friends at Oxygen. When the autopsy was over,
the medical examiner issued a ruling that directly contradicted the
initial findings of police investigators, the medical examiner, and leave
it was a homicide. One of the most striking things
was the fact that a knife was still embedded in
this young woman's chest. There is a significant degree of
(33:08):
force probably needed to inflect that type of loot that
certainly is indicative of a homicide. The emmy's homicide ruling
officially turned Ellen's case into a murder investigation, but then
three months after her dad the Emmy changes the ruling
from a homicide to suicide. To you, Tom Brennan in
(33:30):
a nutshell, what have you learned as to why suddenly
a medical examiner would reverse themselves and go with suicide? Well,
from day one, the police walked into the apartment, took
a look around, set suicide and left. They even left
the apartment unprotected. Okay, they didn't secure the crime scene.
(33:55):
Following that, the following morning, the prominent attorney uncle and
his son entered the apartment and removed the victim's cell phone,
the victims laptop, the victims work laptop, and the piance's laptop.
The police didn't retrieve those items until January twenty nine.
(34:16):
So what does that tell you about evidence? Okay, on
any of those items. To Sandy Greenberg, this is Ellen's mom, Sandy,
what justification was given to you about why the ruling
was changed from homicide to suicide? That she had no
defensive wounds and I think they said something about blood
(34:41):
on her no blood on her? Nan, This is Josh Greenberg.
I'm sorry interrupt Yes, sir, Tom interviewed doctor Osborne who
changed it, and Tom can, I'm sure give you what
to what he learned from doctor Osborne and why he
changed Tom was over a conference call with doctor Osbourne.
(35:05):
My last question to doctor Osborne was why did you
change the cause and manner of death from homicide to suicide?
He said, I did it at the insistence of the police.
I said, did any of those police officers have a
degree in pathology? And with that the conversation ended. Let
me go straight out to Daryl Cohen, a former prosecutor.
(35:30):
What can be done now? The Greenbergs are going forward
with a civil lawsuit, but how can the killer be
brought to justice? Is this going to require the federal
government stepping in? Nancy? I think, excuse me, I think
that a special prosecutor will be what's in order. As
(35:53):
we all know, there is not a statue of limitations
on murder. But we've got to find the perpetrator. We've
got to find the person who killed her. Okay, let
me try to rephrase it, Daryl. The local DA is
not acting, The AG is not acting. What is the
next choice? Now that I've put it to you like that,
(36:13):
would you agree that this is going to involve federal intervention? No?
I wouldn't necessarily. Okay, then what can they do? Agree?
But Nancy, Nancy, what I would say is, first of all,
we need to have a ground swell the court of
public opinion. If you can go to a local station,
(36:33):
television station or stations, and their reporter who you need
to cozy up to, will put a piece or two,
or five or ten on air. That gets to the
local DA that gets to everybody else, because these people
are elected, not selected, and they know that if there's
an unsolved murder, not death, but murder, then they're going
(36:57):
to start paying attention. But you've got to get this swell,
So go to the press, go to social media, go
to every possible outlet you can go to to get
this ground swell moving. I want to go to Josh Greenberg,
this is Ellen's dad. Tell me what you hope to
gain through your civil lawsuit? Okay, we're my goal, my
(37:21):
mission here. My purpose is to get justice for Ellen
and yes see that the proper things happen. The lawsuit
against the medical examiner is to try to get the
certificate of death changed from suicide to homicide. We are
often I forgot who said that before me. That's what
we're doing. We have we have as you cut to
(37:45):
various pieces during this piece very eloquently. I might add,
we've been on Doctor Oz, We've had Bryan she and
locally we've had Janitor Cabayo. I hope I pronounced the
names right. We've run on inside Edition and now being
here with you and having these experts who we have nothing,
who we did not hire or pay for, say what
(38:07):
they have said. We're hoping this will help us go forward.
We also do know, through documentation or the discovery, that
the authorities in Philadelphia are aware of our media efforts.
It's the same district attorney in office. No, okay, that's
a good sign. No, no, not a sign. Why let
(38:30):
me explain. The fellow who's now the district attorney in
Philadelphia was our attorney at the beginning of this The
reason that we went to the Attorney General, which we
thought would be a better place to be. He had
to recuse himself because he our attorney. So we went
to the Attorney General. And I have a special place
(38:50):
in my heart for the Attorney General because the way
he handled this case, the lack of thoroughness, the lack
of professionalism, the lack of anything to do with this case.
I had an attorney who was a former Attorney General
for the Conwealth of Pennsylvania, approached this gentleman and asked
(39:11):
if he wanted our documentation, and our documentation nancies. You'll
know when I mentioned these names, Henry Lee, Cyril Wept,
and Wayne Ross, included their expert opinions, and included Tom's
investigation investigation photographs. It includes a whole mountain of evidence.
As I would say, we asked him to go to
speak to Cyril Cyril webb Son, I believe that had
(39:33):
helped him get elected. He said no, and he came
back saying that the cause of the computer search, which
he did not do he doesn't have the ability of
facacity or the budget to do, proves that Ellen committed suicide.
And we've already discussed those computers, that the chain of
custody was broken. Guys, we were talking about the death
(39:56):
of a beautiful young girl. I'm convinced in my heart
she was murdered, and my heart and in my head
we wait as justice unfalls in the death of Ellen Greenberg.
Nancy Grace Crimes story signing off Goodbye for me,
Host
Nancy Grace
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