April 12, 2023 • 42 mins
An unsealed search warrant states that six weeks after the Idaho student murders, officers found ID cards connected to the victims in Bryan Kohberger’s possession.
Reportedly, the cards were found during a search of one of Bryan Kohberger’s homes. but where were they exactly?
Initial reports on the search warrant say the ID cards were “inside glove, inside box," leading some to believe that the ID cards were found inside the glovebox of Bryan Kohberger's car. Police would not confirm the report because of the gag order in the case.
Dailymail.com reporter Caitlyn Becker says, however, based on her review of the search warrant, the ID cards had been hidden away in Kohberger's parent's home. Becker reports the cards were found "inside a glove, inside a box" in the Albrightsville home, suggesting Kohberger had deliberately hidden the cards.
Police also believe they have evidence that could connect Kohlberger to what police are viewing as cyberstalking of someone from the Moscow residence.
Joining Nancy Grace Today:
- Mark Tate - Attorney, The Tate Law Group
- Dr. Jorey L. Krawczyn - Psychologist, Faculty Saint Leo University; Consultant with Blue Wall Institute; Author: "Operation S.O.S."
- Johnny Naccarato - Fmr Sheriff's Sergeant & Crime Reconstruction and Forensics Team (CRAFT) Supervisor; TWITTER: @TheJohnnyLaw, YOUTUBE: The Johnny Law
- Chris McDonough-Director At the Cold Case Foundation, Former Homicide Detective & Host of YouTube channel, "The Interview Room"
- Dr. Michelle DuPre- Former Forensic Pathologist, Medical Examiner and Detective: Lexington County Sheriff's Department; Author: "Homicide Investigation Field Guide" & "Investigating Child Abuse Field Guide;" Forensic Consultant
- Caitlyn Becker- Senior Reporter for Dailymail.com; Twitter: @caitlynbecker
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Crime Stories with Nancy Greece. Did Brian Coburger, the alleged
killer of four Beautiful University Idaho students, actually keep a
souvenir of the murders. I'm a big scrap booker, and
(00:28):
I not only put photos of every event. Right now,
I'm still stuck on Christmas of twenty seventeen. I have
church bulletins, I have Christmas cards, all sorts of things
I put in with the photos. Is that how he
viewed the murders, like a concert he attended, or his
(00:51):
junior senior prom or some other big event in his life,
that he actually kept mementos a souvenir, so to speak,
that amidst an alleged internal affairs investigation that could threaten
the state's case as well as the possible demolition of
(01:13):
the crime scene. We just saw in the Alex Murdai
case that the jury went back to the scene of
the crime. If that home, that house where the students
were murdered is demolished, will that somehow result in a
problem for the prosecution. All this swirling as news continues
(01:37):
to develop day by day literally in the prosecution of
Brian Coburger and a quadruple slay case. I mean it.
See Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being
with us here at Fox Nation and Serious M one eleven.
First of all, I want to talk about what was
(01:57):
discovered the alleged mento kept by Brian Coburger. Take a
listen to Tracy Walder, former CIA and FBI special agent.
If he kept sort of a souvenir, Really, it points
to just that that he, for his ego purposes, wanted
to keep a souvenir of this crime, wanted to keep
(02:18):
a souvenir of what he believed that he had successfully done.
And I always think a lot of times with criminals
that I've seen, it's always their ego that gets them
in the end. You know. I do think that he
was very confident in what he had done, and I
believe that he felt he hadn't left any evidence behind.
But it's always their ego that's their undoing. And I
(02:39):
believed he wanted a trophy, if you will, of the
crime that he had committed. With me and all Star
panel to make sense of what we know right now.
But first I want to go out to senior reporter
for Dailymail dot Com, Kaitlin Becker, who has been on
the Coburger prosecution from the very very beginning. Caitlin, thank
you for being with us. What exactly are we talking about?
(03:00):
We're talking about an ID here. Nancy Sorts had told
News Nation that Coburger was found with an ID connected
to someone involved in the murders. They weren't specific about
a victim, but that's what we're assuming, that it's an
ID belonging to a victim in his possession after the murders. Nancy.
(03:20):
There has been a lot of debate about where this
idea is found. I tend to disagree with a lot
of the reporting, but it was collected by police during
the search of his parents' property and his car in
allbrights Philip Pennsylvania, Well, that's certainly an air is it down, Caitlin,
because it's got to either be hidden away, squirreled away
in the home or somewhere in the car. Now, let's
(03:43):
think this through. We know the facts of the case.
So Chris mcdonnah joining me, Director Coal Case Foundation, former
homicide detective and host of a YouTube channel, The Interview Room. Chris,
you've got two choices about where the idea was found,
and we do believe it was an ID such as
a driver's license or a student ID belonging to one
(04:05):
of the four victims. Now also know that Coburger was
stalking at least one of the three women online, maybe
dating back all the way to twenty twenty one, before
he even started his PhD program at Washington State University,
(04:25):
which is a whole another can of worms. We'll circle
back to that Caitlin Backer and entire panel, but there's
only two places we know that this license. We're going
to go with a license or a driver's ID or
student ID was found either in his car or in
his parents house. Did he travel cross country with that
(04:47):
ID in the Elantra? Did he have it that close
at hand? I mean, Chris McDonough, you know what my
purse is, my pocketbook, it's a rubber band, and in
the rubber and I had my driver's license, to credit
cards and a whole bunch of other stuff like a
cost code card. I have some driver's licenses and credit
(05:08):
cards my children made from me when they were about
three years old. They drew them on the back of
little cards and you know, drew a picture from my
face and made up fake numbers. For my driver's license.
I carry those to this day. So just what does
that mean? And you're a mind Chris mcdonna. Can't you
just imagine Coburger driving cross country with his father all
(05:32):
the way from Washington State University home to his family
home in the Poconos with that driver's license. That student
id right there with him so he could hold on
to it. Absolutely, Nancy, I mean, this is all about
power and control for him. And that car is so
(05:52):
significant to Coburger because it gives him the sense of
not only reliving the incident, because as he can remember
all those times potentially they drove back there, allegedly twelve
separate times. Now he potentially has a trophy from one
of the victims here and as they unpacked, this individual's
(06:14):
suspectology is what we call it. I can't help but
go back to a conversation we had early on your
show about through the correlation between some of the study
he potentially could have been doing with BTK. BTK took
Nancy Fox's driver's license, And when I heard this and
(06:37):
read the story from Kalin, I thought to myself, Holy cow,
is this guy actually potentially laying over his behavior on
something that he was studying. I would submit to you,
We're going to see a lot more about these correlations.
I would suspect as this case continues to unpack it self.
(06:59):
You know what you said that almost clinically, but let
me break it down and regular people talk. You're absolutely correct,
Chris McDonough that he Brian Coberger, apparently kept souvenirs of
the murders, and you were talking about his studies, and yes,
(07:20):
we did talk about them here on crime stories where
he would actually ask felons, violent felons, I'm talking murderers, rapist,
child molesters, how did you pick your victim? How did
you escape, how did you get away? Did you quote
achieve your goal? His words, not mine? In other words,
did you perform the murder or the rape? How did
(07:43):
that make you feel? He was getting vicarious thrills through
the crimes of other violent felons, reliving their experience, speaking
of one of the many, many killers that kept mementos,
(08:03):
or as it's called, trophies. That makes me think hunters
that put the annual head upon the wall. Talking about
humans human trophies. I'm referring right now to Geff Dahmer
and our cut b as a brother. Listen to Simon
Whistler at biographics. Undoubtedly one of the modern history's most
(08:27):
notorious and abhorrent killers, his crimes for the stuff of
nice mess. Over the course of thirteen years, he prowled
for men and lured them back to his house before
drugging them and strangling them. In all, he took the
lives of seventeen men between nineteen seventy eight and nineteen
ninety one. But simply killing his victims wasn't enough for
(08:47):
Jeffrey Dahma. He never wanted them to leave, so he
saved several trophies, including severed heads, eventually even eight parts
of the victims. He also kept the victims genitals. I
can imagine we're talking about their penises and their testicles,
so that I started to say, is one of the
(09:08):
most outlandish or most unbelievable trophies kept by a killer.
But they all are. And right now I'm pretty sure
I need a shrink or a drink, But since I'm
a teetotaler, I'll go with a shrink. Doctor Jorry Crows
and joining me Psychologists faculty Saint Leo University and consultant
with a blue Wall Institute. He is the author of Operations,
(09:33):
Doctor Jorry. Thank you for being with us, Doctor Jory.
I heard Chris McDonough say power and control. Power and control.
Why is keeping someone's genitals after you mutilated them, either
before postmortem or their student ID. How does that give
(09:57):
you power or control over your dead victim? Well, the
power and control is kind of the big picture when
you individualize it down to the person. It's their recall,
it's the fantasy that they attached to it. Wait, I'm
trying to absorb everything you're saying. You know, you experts,
and that goes for you too, Kaitlyn Becker. You give
(10:18):
us so much information. It's like drinking out of the
fire hygien. Okay, you said relive because as I told
you all over our again is me still trying to
ken't play catch up and make the twenty seventeen Christmas album.
And yes, I stopped the whole time. I see a
picture and I'm like, oh, I remember that putting up
the tent Soul and we were laughing, and John Davis
(10:40):
started to playing the piano and I made him stop,
and I found out it was really on a cell phone.
The whole time I relive that moment. Is that what
you're saying when I see that picture. Yes, And usually
as they develop this fantasy, it becomes what they wanted
to be in their mind. Like in for Cormans. You know,
(11:00):
if they did something that wasn't right that they would
like to do, you know, if they had done it differently,
that's incorporated into the fantasy and that's brought out. You know,
I'm looking from the clinical perspective when I worked in
prison and work with these violent offenders and the sex offenders,
you know, getting into that fantasy light and how they
(11:24):
related to it through these momentums that they kept time
stories with Nancy Grace. Let me just ask, did anybody
(11:46):
on this panel ever watched Desperate Housewives? I did? Who's that?
Alan Kaitlin? Okay, I never have time to watch TV,
but I did get hooked on Desperate Housewives and about
every other third Sunday night, i'd watch it. And I
remember one guy, he was the villain. Remember he ended
up marrying one of the housewives. I can't remember any
(12:07):
of their names, but he had lost his wife and
daughter in a crash, and she was that Nicolete Sheridan. Yes,
don't look at me like that, Jack. I'll watch you
one a program and you give me a look. Anyway,
he tries to kill her because she mowed down his
wife and daughter years and years and years before, and
(12:29):
insinuates himself into her life. I think that's how it went. Anyway.
In the end, he's sitting in a jail cell, much
as doctor Jerry crossin just described, and he's reliving the
night not of the attempted murder, but when his wife
and daughter said, Hey, we're going to run down to
the store. You want to drive with us, and he
said no, and they had the rack and died. He
(12:53):
relives it over and over and over. But in his
mind he goes, no, it's going outside, don't go outside.
Stay in here and let's decorate the tree or something
like that, and he creates an entire alternate fantasy about
what really happened. And for the rest of his life
he'll be in that jail cell reliving the moment over
(13:17):
and over and replaying it out, just like doctor Jerry
Cross and said about how he wishes he could have
done it better. And don't you know Johnny Nacarado, former
sheriff sergeant crime reconstruction forensic team supervisor at the Johnny
(13:40):
Law dot Com. Johnny, And don't you know, if he
could do it all over, he would not have left
the knife sheath at the murder scene. Hello, right, And
he would not have turned his cell phone on when
he was a few miles away from the house that
we can now trace his circuitous out back to his
(14:01):
housing at Washington State University the Knight of the Murders.
So he's living in the fantasy land about what he should, could,
would have done that Doctor Jerry Crowson and Chris mcdonnough
just described, Yeah, that was a little bit of a
food par on his whole entire plan. I don't think
(14:22):
he realized the technology that reason law enforcement have available
to us is just like you know, we learned so
much from trial. I bet if he watched the current
trial that we just all watched from South Carolina, Murdogue,
may he Rottenhill? May he Rotten Hill? And if he
would have watched that trial before he committed these murders,
(14:44):
do you think he would have done things a little
bit differently? I think one hundred percent absolutely. The ID
cards that is another foodp on. Now let's say that
it's true. Are you what are you attempting to say
faux pa because it sounds like you're saying poop. Yeah. Yeah,
I thought he had some unusual and unique derivative. But
(15:05):
it's just a mispronounce. Okay, go ahead, I mean he
that right now we're talking about it's either Kitlin backer.
Do you believe it's a driver's license or student I
d Honestly, I think it could be either one of them.
I think it's whatever was easily accessible that would be.
(15:25):
That would be my guest. Which you know, think about it,
Johnny knock Carroto, you're the crime scene reconstructionist. I'm thinking
about him at the moment of the murders fumbling around
and finding a trophy or did he just find it
by random? Was it sitting out on the kitchen counter
(15:45):
when he walked through and he picked it up? But
I could see Hoburger fumbling around in one of their
bedrooms trying to find something to take. And you know
another thing you could have taken, more like jewelry or
some other trophy that we don't know about. Johnny. Yeah,
let's just say that the rumor is true. It is
an ID card that is of one of the victims.
(16:07):
Now here's another thing. He's been stalking them. Did he
do a car clout and break in and take some
ivs out of purses? Wasn't he in the house prior
at one of these big parties, and you know our
girls leave their purses around. He covertly gets some IDs
out of there, knowing what he's going to do because
he knows he is not going to have time with
bloody gloves or all this physical evidence. With low Card's principle,
(16:30):
he's going to bring something to the scenes, take something away.
Did he take these IDs prior to versus the knife
of because that that's a pretty tight window. But the
surveillance footage of him having to give let these birders
get back in and get the footage of him getting
out of there, that's a short time, So we don't know.
I think if I think you're right, yeah, I do.
(16:53):
I think it might have been before. There just seems
to be so much evidence that there was this alleged
stalking from Coburger to the whole and to the girls
leading up to the murders that I had always, you know,
fearized that he had been in the house before it
likely disguised as a partygoer, and that would be ample
opportunity to, like he said, take something. I think he likely,
(17:13):
if I'm guessing, had other things that belonged to his
original target, and that the ID might have been one
of the things that he took ahead of time. I'll
be curious to see one of the victives had reported
it missing from the beginning, Cat Limbecker, you had been
saying that, and remind me everybody. I want to circle
back to the now. We believe, based on newly released evidence,
(17:37):
that Koburger had been actually in touch with or trying
to be in touch with, one of these female victims
dating back to twenty twenty one, which is before he
started his studies at Washington State University. That's a whole
other can of worms. Did he actually go to WSU?
Did he leave to Paul where he was studying across
(17:58):
the country because of a fixation on one of these girls?
How did that happen? Only a seasoned and veteran computer
tech guy, it's going to be able to unravel that.
But back to this what he may have taken, Guys,
take a lison to Aurica nineteen in as in now
(18:19):
you're hearing forensics psychologist doctor Joni Johnston in Mark of
a Killer. Listen, we know that one of Robert Hansen's victims,
he had a fish necklace that was so meaningful to
her that she never took it off, and even after
she died and it was later discovered what happened to her,
her family asked for that necklace back. When Robert Hanson
(18:42):
takes these trophies, he is extending his hunting. So he's
got the prize. Now his whole life, in some respects,
is about hunting. He's got trophies on his wall, He's
got trophies now hidden in his attic, so he feels
incredibly powerful. It's probably the peak of this entire experience
for him. Not only a memento to relive the incident,
(19:05):
like I'm reliving Christmas twenty seventeen with the twins and
David decorating the tree, but not only that mark take.
He's got a hell of a problem at trial. If
what Kaitlin Becker from Daily Mill is telling us, I
believe she is correct that he kept a memento. Oh man,
(19:26):
I'd love to spend that out and opening arguments to
the jury about him holding onto it, just looking at
it in his glove box in his car like it
was radioactive, knowing it was in there the entire two
thousand plus miles across the country. What is that, Kaitlin
jumping in? Yeah? Can I jump in? Really that? Yes?
I take them issue with the fact that some sources
(19:49):
had said it was found in the glove box. I
had passed through and looked through the search for ITT
just with a fine tooth. Cold you really have And
I gotta tell are you are there the same thing?
But I learned a lot listening to you. It was awesome.
Go ahead. I The only place I found mention of
IDs was in what was taken from inside Coburger's parents
(20:12):
house in Albright Spill And in the list it says
number thirty five on the list, I can read a
Q right now. It says ID cards cards plural inside
glove inside box, so it doesn't say inside a glove box,
and it's not from his car. It says ID cards
inside glove inside box, as if he's hiding the ID
(20:34):
in a glove and then hiding that glove in the box.
I'm curious who the glove blogs too. And I think
there's something so telling that if this is what is
referred to by the ID belonging to one of the victims,
not only was it traveling with him allegedly from Pullman,
Washington to Albright Spill, but it's inside the home so
close to him, and it sounds like it's something that's
(20:55):
hidden to me. So I think that makes it even worse. Well,
let me add something psychologically real quick, hold on. I
agree with Caitlin Becker and I started our discussion with
it's either in the glove compartment in the car or
somewhere in the family home. And my reading of the
search warrant, of course we're going to have to hear
it from the horse's mouth, is what Kaitlyn Becker just said.
(21:16):
I think it's found. The student ID, if that's what
it is, is in the parents home. It's inside a glove,
you know, the perfect place to look for everything. It's
always in somebody's underwear and sock drawer. That's where everybody
hides everything. Yeah, I still have hidden in there my
children's teeth at the tooth ferry took in little bags
(21:40):
with the date on it. I don't know whose tooth
goes to his mouth. I didn't think of that, but
that said, I still do it, and I even know better.
So Mark Tate, I believe she's right. And I could
spend that out in opening argument too, because he did
go across the country with the ID just thinking about it.
Then he takes great care, Mark Tate, putting the ID
(22:02):
inside the glove inside of a box in his family home.
You know, he had to very carefully pick that spot. Sure,
it's going to come back to bite him like a
rattlesnake on the neck at trial, Mark Tate, Mark Tate,
a high profile trial lawyer with the Tate Group joining us.
Go ahead, and Mark take hey, yeah, that's a very
specific bite location you've chosen for where this piece of
(22:24):
evidence is going to hit him. But you know, usually, Nancy,
when I'm talking with you about these cases that get
this national and international attention, I enjoy pointing out to
you how I could defend the case, and it usually
sparks your ire and you come at me like a
spider monkey with how crazy I am. I've never been
compared to a spider monkey, but I'll lie tone. The
(22:47):
more I read that Caitlin writes, and the more that
I hear it in other areas, you know, in the media.
I would not be very pleased with having to serve
the role as a public defender in defending this guy.
The evidence is stacking up against him in a way
that I just don't see any room. I don't see
(23:10):
any daylight between him and the charges that he's going
to be facing. And you know, with the other cases
we've recently spoken about, you know, I tell you, if
the offender had called me when he committed the crime,
I could have kept him from talking in a way
that gets him convicted later. You know, I would defend
the guy charge right now with the Stormy Daniels cover
(23:32):
up payment, I could defend that. I could see a
way that I could defend it. I'm having a hard
time seeing a way that I can defend this case.
And as I've told you, and as you know I
like to do, I like to handle criminal defense matters
where I see some daylight, where I see a way
that I can make a difference for the defendant. I
don't see it here. I'll tell you it's going to
be really hard to explain a student ID or driver's
(23:54):
license in a glove in a box in his parents' home. Guys,
he's not the only one. Listen to our cut twenty
in as in now, The defense argued that since Farber's
body has never been found, no one knows if a
murder was committed. Prosecutor's point at key evidence found on
an sdcard owned by Goaliard, with photos they believe are
a Farver's leg and foot that matcher tattoos, also photos
(24:17):
of a blue and black tarp. They believe the picks
were Goallyard's trophy for getting away with murder. This left
foot depicted in this photograph is consistent, appears to be
consistent with a foot that's an a state of decomposition. Okay,
they're not the only ones. And that one was dealing
(24:39):
with Shanna Golier and arguing that since Carrie Farmer's body
was never found, no murder occurred, but they had photos, trophies,
the defendant had taken the victim's decomposing body. Joining me,
doctor Michelle Duprie you know her well now if you
(25:01):
watched any portion of the Alexa Murdog double murder trial,
you know doctor Michelle Dupresci is also working tirelessly regarding
the eximation and the re autopsy and what that means
in the case of Stephen Smith, also out of South
Carolina Pathologists, medical examiner, former detective, and for US very
(25:24):
significant author of homicide investigation field guide. You know, doctor Dupree,
You've seen a lot of dead bodies, but the perp
that keeps a trophy that, like we think Coburger did,
Ed Guine, a serial killer, made masks with his victims' faces.
(25:44):
Von Milott kept his victims camping equipment at least seven
that we know of. He would start people camping, kill them,
bury them in the forest, but yet keep little bits
of their camping equipment. Listen to this one, doctor Dupree.
Alex the Mangel made a scalp wig. Now that was
(26:07):
up in Westchester, New York, but police originally deemed it
to be a wig, but it was actually the victim's scalp,
which the defendant wore as a wig when he grabbed
his next victim. Okay, we've all seen hamible elector. That's
nothing compared to the real life killers. Now, one guy
(26:29):
John and George Hay kept his victim's dog. Much has
been made about the dog in this case. The dog
in this case is alive, and well and actually has
to go fund me. Robert Hanson, as you know, kept
his victim's jewelry. Doctor Dupree, Johnny Christie kept his victim's
(26:49):
bodies hidden in the kitchen for a really long time.
Rifkin kept all sorts of trophies like a license plate,
under wear, bras, driver's licenses, jewelry, a library card, which
is kind of like in this case we think as
a student id Stanley Dean Baker kept his victims bones,
(27:11):
only select bones, not all of the bones. Particularly he
kept the finger bones. Dennis Nilsen kept body parts. Edmund
Kemper kept his mother's head. Now that's it, And I
could go on, I've got stacks and stacks of these guys,
But what about it, Doctor Deperee, you ever seen anything
(27:32):
like it? Nancy? I have actually, And to me, I
knew you were going to say that that's not a shock.
It may shock other people, but I knew you had, Okay,
go ahead. These people are scary. I mean, these people
are so out of touch with reality. I mean, how
you even explain this. I've had serial killer cases where
they did many of the same things like this, and
they're just sound like scary. I do not want to
(27:53):
meet these people anywhere, anytime, not in the dark alley
or anywhere. You know, I'm starting to believe that, doctor
Michelle Dupre, It's not that uncommon that killers keep mementos thoughts.
You're right, Nancy, And during my time as an investigator,
we actually saw some of that. I've even seen where
some of the killers would have turned the funeral of
(28:14):
their victim, even go so far as to put something
strange or a taunting note in the casket. I mean,
they do all sorts of strange things. It's just unbelievable.
All this is swirling as we learn about a potential
internal affairs investigation that could spell doom for the prosecution's case.
Take a listen to our cut three sixty three. This
(28:34):
is Amanda Eustace with WNAP. Documents of protection were filed
prohibiting anyone from discussing the contents of the internal affairs
investigation material. Regal says, it's hard to tell if this
is good or bad news for either side trying the case.
The last thing that a prosecution wants is to have
to do a case twice, so they want to make
(28:56):
sure that they have met the due process obligations and
provided the things that they're required to provide because that's
the only way that they get to do the case once. Now,
it's unclear over we'll ever learn what the information is about.
As of now, Brian Coburger remains locked up in Idaho jail.
His preliminary hearing is scheduled for June twenty six. Kayalen
(29:18):
Becker joining us from dailymail dot com, investigative reporter who
has thoroughly analyzed all the aspects of what we know
so far in the Brian Coburger prosecution. Caitlin, what can
you tell us about a potential internal affairs investigation? You know, Nancy? Unfortunately,
like you just heard, there really is not a lot
of information out there. Basically, all we know is that
(29:41):
an officer involved in the investigation had some sort of
Brady violation was being investigated internally, and that's kind of it. Okay,
let's talk about how devastating that would be to the police.
But doctor Jerry Crossen, psychologists and faculty at Saint Leo University,
I heard you jumping in earlier. What were you saying?
I was talking about the hidden momento there. One of
(30:05):
the key things to you. Look at is how secretive
he placed you know, that's a value to him. So
hiding it like he did to me, that's very significant, Okay,
because now it becomes more personalized as a trophy or momento.
I agree. I'm just imagining him going through all of
the effort to find the right hiding place for the
(30:25):
student id of one of the people he murdered. Oh yeah,
time stories with Nancy Grace. I want to talk about
(30:49):
Chris mcdonna, a former homicide detective now star of the
Interview Room, also the director at the Coal Case Foundation
dot org. Chris mcdonna an eternal, an eternal affairs investigation.
In other words, a potential dirty cop that can spell
doom for your case. And you would never believe the
(31:11):
cops that are somehow dirty. One bad apple can spoil
the whole bunch, and I'll never forget Chris McDonagh. I tried.
It wasn't called child sex trafficking or human trafficking then,
but I was trying to find a little girl that
was taken it like age thirteen and pimped out, I
(31:33):
mean pimped out. I couldn't find her, couldn't find her
couldn't find her. I and three vice detectives to work
in the streets and it was cold. Oh, it was
so cold outside for months, so I would handle my
plan arrangement calendar and then go out on the street
looking for this girl. We finally found her. And by
(31:53):
the way, when I did find her, she was in
a flophouse down on Stuart Avenue in Atlanta, where everybody's
sold dope and got hookers. I went in there and looked.
There were like three or four women in there, and
I came out, She's not in there. Why did you
even bring me here? They went, it's her and the
white boots. I went back in. This little girl, now fourteen,
looked like a thirty five year old woman with the
(32:16):
long weave and all the makeup and the high boots
and the short skirt and the false syelashes. It was
just like I couldn't eat when we got all that
off of her. She looked like she had to have
a little school uniform and go to school with my
daughter Lucy. But that said, we got the prosecute, we
got the conviction. It was about eight months later I
(32:40):
was working and somebody had a TV going on Meete
and I looked up and there was a sketch artist,
Chris McDonough in a federal courtroom, and I went, wow,
that kind of looked like Harrington, and I just kept
going because you know the sketch artists work never looks
like the person. Well, guess what it was. And his codefendants,
(33:02):
my three vice guys that I had worked with every
single day trying to find this little girl, as it
turned out, when I wasn't around, would bust dope lords
and take all their gold, jewelry and their money. And
it was so bad the fans did a sting on
the cops. Now how a jury cared about whether a
(33:24):
doper lost his gold chain, I don't know, but they
were prosecuted and convicted. So you think you know somebody,
you don't know them at all. What can an internal
affairs investigation due to a case, Well, it's as you've
eloquently laid out, Nancy, as a prosecutors were snipmare potential
(33:46):
and because you know, I actually got transferred into vice
years ago in nineteen eighty four to eighty six because
we had a guy who was taking favors on the
side for trans moving drugs to certain people and show
what this is about. The good news here is this
(34:07):
is Brady Discovery, right, and you can explain that forever, Nancy,
I have to go ahead. It was brought up by
the state, So the state was made aware of it
by the IA team, the Internal Affairs unit at the
PD and says, hey, one of our guys, by the way,
has this in his personnel file. You may want to
(34:28):
reveal this to the defense while you can and show
that's the upside of this, that the state brought it forward.
The downside is we don't know exactly what it is.
It could be just a citizens complaint about you know,
the officer was rude to me as much as Hey,
this guy's lied before, and you know, we need to
(34:50):
make sure that we get ahead of this. So it
could go either way. To Johnny Nacarate joining us former
shaff sergeant now Crime and Construction and for instance team supervisor.
You can find him at the Johnny law dot com.
Johnny as a former sheriff sergeant. You know what, every
cop that's dirty, they need to be thrown out and
(35:12):
prosecuted themselves, because it gives the rest of law enforcement,
who I believe are decent and honorable people a black eye,
and it can ruin a prosecution. When a jury finds
out a cop on the stand, a witness is dirty,
(35:32):
they can it can ruin the whole thing. Just like
an Alex Murlow. Let's use him again. Once he got
on the stand and he lied, it came out that
he had lied about being in those dog kennels at
the time of the martyrs, he lost all credibility. It
was over. He's a big fat liar. And if one
cop is lying, are they all lying? That's what can
(35:52):
go through the minds of the jury, Johnny and some
law enforcement. I mean, once you lie, and I mean
once you lie at all, whether it's an ia or
it's in court, you're done. It's a rat in the year.
Are going to be testifying anymore, and your career is
probably going to be over. Forget their career. Who cares
about their career? They did that to themselves. What about
(36:12):
the state's case? What about a true verdict? I mean,
didn't you see what happened in O. J. Simpson with
one cop? Oh? This Mark Tate, Johnny Knocarato, Yeah, I'll
tell you what a lion cop does. Johnny knocaratou is
in law enforcement. Uh, I'm not sure they teach pronunciation
(36:34):
necessarily of French colloquialism's foo pap. Let me enjoy my
one tiny triumph please. Mark is always right. I got
him on one thing. Let me enjoy the moment. For
peace's sake. You're enjoyed it, I am. I'm gonna say
it again, so pa woo. Okay, you know but so
so um yeah, yeah yeah. If you have an officer
(36:56):
on the stand upon whom the state relies, and the
defense catches him in a lie and they're able to
expose it for the first time in cross examination in
front of a jury, it can have a massive impact. However,
I would suggest that perhaps Johnny is a little bit
wrong in thinking that the state doesn't rely on lying
(37:20):
people all the time. Okay, Mark Tate, I did not
given to start confidence about confidential informance. Of course, they're
all dopers and bad guys themselves. That's who cis are,
Mark Tay, As I have often said to juries, who
do you think that bad guys hang out with nuns
(37:41):
and priests and virgins? How do you think a confidential
informant knows what the diapers are doing because he's a
bad guy there. It's just that simple. And I've had
to tell it to a jury like that many times.
But also sometimes you got to go to hell to
get your witness to put the devil in jail. And
you're not think one cop can bring down the Brian
(38:03):
Coburger case for the state, Mark Tate, I would recommend
not even putting this guy on the stand and making
my case without him. No, you can. But what I'm
saying is is that you one a prosecutor can know
they're going in with the disingenuous witness and explain it.
It's not the fact that the witness may be shifty.
(38:23):
The fact is that if the defense catches it by surprise,
it's the element of surprise. You never want the other
side to bring it out. You have to bring it out.
I just would try every way I could to avoid
him or her on the stand. Also, Caitlin Becker, we're
learning that the connection between Coburger and at least one
(38:46):
of the female victims possibly dates back to twenty twenty one.
Now this is what we knew up until now. Take
a listen to our cut three four eight. Our friends
at WPVI, we also learned today that the Coburger may
have even sent direct messages on Instagram to one are
the victims two weeks before the murders, with things like, hey,
(39:07):
how are you now? Weeks ago, investigators did reveal they
found a knife sheath near one of the bodies. They
recovers a man's DNA from that, and that was later
connected to Coburger through DNA found at his parents' home
and the Poconos, who was rated December twenty ninth, the
same day that the warrant was executed on his apartment itself.
The other thing is warrant does say. It says these
(39:28):
murders appeared to have been planned rather than a crime
that happened in a moment of conflict. Kaitlin Becker, investigative reporter,
dailymail dot Com, Hey how are you all right? But
now we're learning that his connection to at least one
of these victims may go back all the way to
(39:49):
twenty twenty one, before he even went to WSU, which
is about nine ten miles away from the murder scene.
They had to figure that out if in fact it's true. Kaitlinbecker,
through what we are now learning, our search warrants on
social media such as Google, Tender and staff. Also, we're
(40:14):
learning that the debit and credit cards of the victims
and the defendant were taken, I mean all of their records.
Were they at the same restaurant at the same time.
They're trying to make all of those connections, and these
warrants are dating back to at least twenty twenty one.
What do you make of it? You know, this makes
(40:35):
a lot of sense to me because we've been wondering
from the get go what the connection is between Koburger
and the victims, and of course how far back it goes.
And it really does seem like based on these search warrants,
and you mentioned a few of them, but there were
more than sixty that had been sent out, everything from
like you said, the bank accounts to eBay, to bunch
(40:56):
of dating apps all from Matt Group like Kinder, all
the metaproforms read it, Snapchat. All of these search warrants
have been sent out for the three female victims, and
for Coburger. It doesn't seem that even shape and name
was searched and as well within these documents, because it
(41:17):
looks like he just happened to have been really at
the wrong place at the wrong time, and that it
was the female victims that were at least one of
them the targets. So going back to January twenty twenty
one would really indicate to me that this had been planned,
obviously for far longer than we had even anticipated. My
(41:38):
biggest question now, Nancy, would be when de Sea decided
to apply to Washington State University? Is it before that
or after that, because it would be the most reasonable
to me that perhaps he had already applied, and he
had gone out and checked it out and been in
the area, and maybe that was the first time he
(41:59):
ran into I agree that is the most reasonable, But
somehow I don't know that reason applies to people like
Brian Coburger. Now that we know he actually kept a memento,
a memento of the murders, guys, we wait as the
evidence unfolds. Nancy Gray's crime story, signing off Goodbye Friend,
Crime Stories with Nancy Greece. Did Brian Coburger, the alleged
killer of four Beautiful University Idaho students, actually keep a
souvenir of the murders. I'm a big scrap booker, and
(00:28):
I not only put photos of every event. Right now,
I'm still stuck on Christmas of twenty seventeen. I have
church bulletins, I have Christmas cards, all sorts of things
I put in with the photos. Is that how he
viewed the murders, like a concert he attended, or his
(00:51):
junior senior prom or some other big event in his life,
that he actually kept mementos a souvenir, so to speak,
that amidst an alleged internal affairs investigation that could threaten
the state's case as well as the possible demolition of
(01:13):
the crime scene. We just saw in the Alex Murdai
case that the jury went back to the scene of
the crime. If that home, that house where the students
were murdered is demolished, will that somehow result in a
problem for the prosecution. All this swirling as news continues
(01:37):
to develop day by day literally in the prosecution of
Brian Coburger and a quadruple slay case. I mean it.
See Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being
with us here at Fox Nation and Serious M one eleven.
First of all, I want to talk about what was
(01:57):
discovered the alleged mento kept by Brian Coburger. Take a
listen to Tracy Walder, former CIA and FBI special agent.
If he kept sort of a souvenir, Really, it points
to just that that he, for his ego purposes, wanted
to keep a souvenir of this crime, wanted to keep
(02:18):
a souvenir of what he believed that he had successfully done.
And I always think a lot of times with criminals
that I've seen, it's always their ego that gets them
in the end. You know. I do think that he
was very confident in what he had done, and I
believe that he felt he hadn't left any evidence behind.
But it's always their ego that's their undoing. And I
(02:39):
believed he wanted a trophy, if you will, of the
crime that he had committed. With me and all Star
panel to make sense of what we know right now.
But first I want to go out to senior reporter
for Dailymail dot Com, Kaitlin Becker, who has been on
the Coburger prosecution from the very very beginning. Caitlin, thank
you for being with us. What exactly are we talking about?
(03:00):
We're talking about an ID here. Nancy Sorts had told
News Nation that Coburger was found with an ID connected
to someone involved in the murders. They weren't specific about
a victim, but that's what we're assuming, that it's an
ID belonging to a victim in his possession after the murders. Nancy.
(03:20):
There has been a lot of debate about where this
idea is found. I tend to disagree with a lot
of the reporting, but it was collected by police during
the search of his parents' property and his car in
allbrights Philip Pennsylvania, Well, that's certainly an air is it down, Caitlin,
because it's got to either be hidden away, squirreled away
in the home or somewhere in the car. Now, let's
(03:43):
think this through. We know the facts of the case.
So Chris mcdonnah joining me, Director Coal Case Foundation, former
homicide detective and host of a YouTube channel, The Interview Room. Chris,
you've got two choices about where the idea was found,
and we do believe it was an ID such as
a driver's license or a student ID belonging to one
(04:05):
of the four victims. Now also know that Coburger was
stalking at least one of the three women online, maybe
dating back all the way to twenty twenty one, before
he even started his PhD program at Washington State University,
(04:25):
which is a whole another can of worms. We'll circle
back to that Caitlin Backer and entire panel, but there's
only two places we know that this license. We're going
to go with a license or a driver's ID or
student ID was found either in his car or in
his parents house. Did he travel cross country with that
(04:47):
ID in the Elantra? Did he have it that close
at hand? I mean, Chris McDonough, you know what my
purse is, my pocketbook, it's a rubber band, and in
the rubber and I had my driver's license, to credit
cards and a whole bunch of other stuff like a
cost code card. I have some driver's licenses and credit
(05:08):
cards my children made from me when they were about
three years old. They drew them on the back of
little cards and you know, drew a picture from my
face and made up fake numbers. For my driver's license.
I carry those to this day. So just what does
that mean? And you're a mind Chris mcdonna. Can't you
just imagine Coburger driving cross country with his father all
(05:32):
the way from Washington State University home to his family
home in the Poconos with that driver's license. That student
id right there with him so he could hold on
to it. Absolutely, Nancy, I mean, this is all about
power and control for him. And that car is so
(05:52):
significant to Coburger because it gives him the sense of
not only reliving the incident, because as he can remember
all those times potentially they drove back there, allegedly twelve
separate times. Now he potentially has a trophy from one
of the victims here and as they unpacked, this individual's
(06:14):
suspectology is what we call it. I can't help but
go back to a conversation we had early on your
show about through the correlation between some of the study
he potentially could have been doing with BTK. BTK took
Nancy Fox's driver's license, And when I heard this and
(06:37):
read the story from Kalin, I thought to myself, Holy cow,
is this guy actually potentially laying over his behavior on
something that he was studying. I would submit to you,
We're going to see a lot more about these correlations.
I would suspect as this case continues to unpack it self.
(06:59):
You know what you said that almost clinically, but let
me break it down and regular people talk. You're absolutely correct,
Chris McDonough that he Brian Coberger, apparently kept souvenirs of
the murders, and you were talking about his studies, and yes,
(07:20):
we did talk about them here on crime stories where
he would actually ask felons, violent felons, I'm talking murderers, rapist,
child molesters, how did you pick your victim? How did
you escape, how did you get away? Did you quote
achieve your goal? His words, not mine? In other words,
did you perform the murder or the rape? How did
(07:43):
that make you feel? He was getting vicarious thrills through
the crimes of other violent felons, reliving their experience, speaking
of one of the many, many killers that kept mementos,
(08:03):
or as it's called, trophies. That makes me think hunters
that put the annual head upon the wall. Talking about
humans human trophies. I'm referring right now to Geff Dahmer
and our cut b as a brother. Listen to Simon
Whistler at biographics. Undoubtedly one of the modern history's most
(08:27):
notorious and abhorrent killers, his crimes for the stuff of
nice mess. Over the course of thirteen years, he prowled
for men and lured them back to his house before
drugging them and strangling them. In all, he took the
lives of seventeen men between nineteen seventy eight and nineteen
ninety one. But simply killing his victims wasn't enough for
(08:47):
Jeffrey Dahma. He never wanted them to leave, so he
saved several trophies, including severed heads, eventually even eight parts
of the victims. He also kept the victims genitals. I
can imagine we're talking about their penises and their testicles,
so that I started to say, is one of the
(09:08):
most outlandish or most unbelievable trophies kept by a killer.
But they all are. And right now I'm pretty sure
I need a shrink or a drink, But since I'm
a teetotaler, I'll go with a shrink. Doctor Jorry Crows
and joining me Psychologists faculty Saint Leo University and consultant
with a blue Wall Institute. He is the author of Operations,
(09:33):
Doctor Jorry. Thank you for being with us, Doctor Jory.
I heard Chris McDonough say power and control. Power and control.
Why is keeping someone's genitals after you mutilated them, either
before postmortem or their student ID. How does that give
(09:57):
you power or control over your dead victim? Well, the
power and control is kind of the big picture when
you individualize it down to the person. It's their recall,
it's the fantasy that they attached to it. Wait, I'm
trying to absorb everything you're saying. You know, you experts,
and that goes for you too, Kaitlyn Becker. You give
(10:18):
us so much information. It's like drinking out of the
fire hygien. Okay, you said relive because as I told
you all over our again is me still trying to
ken't play catch up and make the twenty seventeen Christmas album.
And yes, I stopped the whole time. I see a
picture and I'm like, oh, I remember that putting up
the tent Soul and we were laughing, and John Davis
(10:40):
started to playing the piano and I made him stop,
and I found out it was really on a cell phone.
The whole time I relive that moment. Is that what
you're saying when I see that picture. Yes, And usually
as they develop this fantasy, it becomes what they wanted
to be in their mind. Like in for Cormans. You know,
(11:00):
if they did something that wasn't right that they would
like to do, you know, if they had done it differently,
that's incorporated into the fantasy and that's brought out. You know,
I'm looking from the clinical perspective when I worked in
prison and work with these violent offenders and the sex offenders,
you know, getting into that fantasy light and how they
(11:24):
related to it through these momentums that they kept time
stories with Nancy Grace. Let me just ask, did anybody
(11:46):
on this panel ever watched Desperate Housewives? I did? Who's that?
Alan Kaitlin? Okay, I never have time to watch TV,
but I did get hooked on Desperate Housewives and about
every other third Sunday night, i'd watch it. And I
remember one guy, he was the villain. Remember he ended
up marrying one of the housewives. I can't remember any
(12:07):
of their names, but he had lost his wife and
daughter in a crash, and she was that Nicolete Sheridan. Yes,
don't look at me like that, Jack. I'll watch you
one a program and you give me a look. Anyway,
he tries to kill her because she mowed down his
wife and daughter years and years and years before, and
(12:29):
insinuates himself into her life. I think that's how it went. Anyway.
In the end, he's sitting in a jail cell, much
as doctor Jerry crossin just described, and he's reliving the
night not of the attempted murder, but when his wife
and daughter said, Hey, we're going to run down to
the store. You want to drive with us, and he
said no, and they had the rack and died. He
(12:53):
relives it over and over and over. But in his
mind he goes, no, it's going outside, don't go outside.
Stay in here and let's decorate the tree or something
like that, and he creates an entire alternate fantasy about
what really happened. And for the rest of his life
he'll be in that jail cell reliving the moment over
(13:17):
and over and replaying it out, just like doctor Jerry
Cross and said about how he wishes he could have
done it better. And don't you know Johnny Nacarado, former
sheriff sergeant crime reconstruction forensic team supervisor at the Johnny
(13:40):
Law dot Com. Johnny, And don't you know, if he
could do it all over, he would not have left
the knife sheath at the murder scene. Hello, right, And
he would not have turned his cell phone on when
he was a few miles away from the house that
we can now trace his circuitous out back to his
(14:01):
housing at Washington State University the Knight of the Murders.
So he's living in the fantasy land about what he should, could,
would have done that Doctor Jerry Crowson and Chris mcdonnough
just described, Yeah, that was a little bit of a
food par on his whole entire plan. I don't think
(14:22):
he realized the technology that reason law enforcement have available
to us is just like you know, we learned so
much from trial. I bet if he watched the current
trial that we just all watched from South Carolina, Murdogue,
may he Rottenhill? May he Rotten Hill? And if he
would have watched that trial before he committed these murders,
(14:44):
do you think he would have done things a little
bit differently? I think one hundred percent absolutely. The ID
cards that is another foodp on. Now let's say that
it's true. Are you what are you attempting to say
faux pa because it sounds like you're saying poop. Yeah. Yeah,
I thought he had some unusual and unique derivative. But
(15:05):
it's just a mispronounce. Okay, go ahead, I mean he
that right now we're talking about it's either Kitlin backer.
Do you believe it's a driver's license or student I
d Honestly, I think it could be either one of them.
I think it's whatever was easily accessible that would be.
(15:25):
That would be my guest. Which you know, think about it,
Johnny knock Carroto, you're the crime scene reconstructionist. I'm thinking
about him at the moment of the murders fumbling around
and finding a trophy or did he just find it
by random? Was it sitting out on the kitchen counter
(15:45):
when he walked through and he picked it up? But
I could see Hoburger fumbling around in one of their
bedrooms trying to find something to take. And you know
another thing you could have taken, more like jewelry or
some other trophy that we don't know about. Johnny. Yeah,
let's just say that the rumor is true. It is
an ID card that is of one of the victims.
(16:07):
Now here's another thing. He's been stalking them. Did he
do a car clout and break in and take some
ivs out of purses? Wasn't he in the house prior
at one of these big parties, and you know our
girls leave their purses around. He covertly gets some IDs
out of there, knowing what he's going to do because
he knows he is not going to have time with
bloody gloves or all this physical evidence. With low Card's principle,
(16:30):
he's going to bring something to the scenes, take something away.
Did he take these IDs prior to versus the knife
of because that that's a pretty tight window. But the
surveillance footage of him having to give let these birders
get back in and get the footage of him getting
out of there, that's a short time, So we don't know.
I think if I think you're right, yeah, I do.
(16:53):
I think it might have been before. There just seems
to be so much evidence that there was this alleged
stalking from Coburger to the whole and to the girls
leading up to the murders that I had always, you know,
fearized that he had been in the house before it
likely disguised as a partygoer, and that would be ample
opportunity to, like he said, take something. I think he likely,
(17:13):
if I'm guessing, had other things that belonged to his
original target, and that the ID might have been one
of the things that he took ahead of time. I'll
be curious to see one of the victives had reported
it missing from the beginning, Cat Limbecker, you had been
saying that, and remind me everybody. I want to circle
back to the now. We believe, based on newly released evidence,
(17:37):
that Koburger had been actually in touch with or trying
to be in touch with, one of these female victims
dating back to twenty twenty one, which is before he
started his studies at Washington State University. That's a whole
other can of worms. Did he actually go to WSU?
Did he leave to Paul where he was studying across
(17:58):
the country because of a fixation on one of these girls?
How did that happen? Only a seasoned and veteran computer
tech guy, it's going to be able to unravel that.
But back to this what he may have taken, Guys,
take a lison to Aurica nineteen in as in now
(18:19):
you're hearing forensics psychologist doctor Joni Johnston in Mark of
a Killer. Listen, we know that one of Robert Hansen's victims,
he had a fish necklace that was so meaningful to
her that she never took it off, and even after
she died and it was later discovered what happened to her,
her family asked for that necklace back. When Robert Hanson
(18:42):
takes these trophies, he is extending his hunting. So he's
got the prize. Now his whole life, in some respects,
is about hunting. He's got trophies on his wall, He's
got trophies now hidden in his attic, so he feels
incredibly powerful. It's probably the peak of this entire experience
for him. Not only a memento to relive the incident,
(19:05):
like I'm reliving Christmas twenty seventeen with the twins and
David decorating the tree, but not only that mark take.
He's got a hell of a problem at trial. If
what Kaitlin Becker from Daily Mill is telling us, I
believe she is correct that he kept a memento. Oh man,
(19:26):
I'd love to spend that out and opening arguments to
the jury about him holding onto it, just looking at
it in his glove box in his car like it
was radioactive, knowing it was in there the entire two
thousand plus miles across the country. What is that, Kaitlin
jumping in? Yeah? Can I jump in? Really that? Yes?
I take them issue with the fact that some sources
(19:49):
had said it was found in the glove box. I
had passed through and looked through the search for ITT
just with a fine tooth. Cold you really have And
I gotta tell are you are there the same thing?
But I learned a lot listening to you. It was awesome.
Go ahead. I The only place I found mention of
IDs was in what was taken from inside Coburger's parents
(20:12):
house in Albright Spill And in the list it says
number thirty five on the list, I can read a
Q right now. It says ID cards cards plural inside
glove inside box, so it doesn't say inside a glove box,
and it's not from his car. It says ID cards
inside glove inside box, as if he's hiding the ID
(20:34):
in a glove and then hiding that glove in the box.
I'm curious who the glove blogs too. And I think
there's something so telling that if this is what is
referred to by the ID belonging to one of the victims,
not only was it traveling with him allegedly from Pullman,
Washington to Albright Spill, but it's inside the home so
close to him, and it sounds like it's something that's
(20:55):
hidden to me. So I think that makes it even worse. Well,
let me add something psychologically real quick, hold on. I
agree with Caitlin Becker and I started our discussion with
it's either in the glove compartment in the car or
somewhere in the family home. And my reading of the
search warrant, of course we're going to have to hear
it from the horse's mouth, is what Kaitlyn Becker just said.
(21:16):
I think it's found. The student ID, if that's what
it is, is in the parents home. It's inside a glove,
you know, the perfect place to look for everything. It's
always in somebody's underwear and sock drawer. That's where everybody
hides everything. Yeah, I still have hidden in there my
children's teeth at the tooth ferry took in little bags
(21:40):
with the date on it. I don't know whose tooth
goes to his mouth. I didn't think of that, but
that said, I still do it, and I even know better.
So Mark Tate, I believe she's right. And I could
spend that out in opening argument too, because he did
go across the country with the ID just thinking about it.
Then he takes great care, Mark Tate, putting the ID
(22:02):
inside the glove inside of a box in his family home.
You know, he had to very carefully pick that spot. Sure,
it's going to come back to bite him like a
rattlesnake on the neck at trial, Mark Tate, Mark Tate,
a high profile trial lawyer with the Tate Group joining us.
Go ahead, and Mark take hey, yeah, that's a very
specific bite location you've chosen for where this piece of
(22:24):
evidence is going to hit him. But you know, usually, Nancy,
when I'm talking with you about these cases that get
this national and international attention, I enjoy pointing out to
you how I could defend the case, and it usually
sparks your ire and you come at me like a
spider monkey with how crazy I am. I've never been
compared to a spider monkey, but I'll lie tone. The
(22:47):
more I read that Caitlin writes, and the more that
I hear it in other areas, you know, in the media.
I would not be very pleased with having to serve
the role as a public defender in defending this guy.
The evidence is stacking up against him in a way
that I just don't see any room. I don't see
(23:10):
any daylight between him and the charges that he's going
to be facing. And you know, with the other cases
we've recently spoken about, you know, I tell you, if
the offender had called me when he committed the crime,
I could have kept him from talking in a way
that gets him convicted later. You know, I would defend
the guy charge right now with the Stormy Daniels cover
(23:32):
up payment, I could defend that. I could see a
way that I could defend it. I'm having a hard
time seeing a way that I can defend this case.
And as I've told you, and as you know I
like to do, I like to handle criminal defense matters
where I see some daylight, where I see a way
that I can make a difference for the defendant. I
don't see it here. I'll tell you it's going to
be really hard to explain a student ID or driver's
(23:54):
license in a glove in a box in his parents' home. Guys,
he's not the only one. Listen to our cut twenty
in as in now, The defense argued that since Farber's
body has never been found, no one knows if a
murder was committed. Prosecutor's point at key evidence found on
an sdcard owned by Goaliard, with photos they believe are
a Farver's leg and foot that matcher tattoos, also photos
(24:17):
of a blue and black tarp. They believe the picks
were Goallyard's trophy for getting away with murder. This left
foot depicted in this photograph is consistent, appears to be
consistent with a foot that's an a state of decomposition. Okay,
they're not the only ones. And that one was dealing
(24:39):
with Shanna Golier and arguing that since Carrie Farmer's body
was never found, no murder occurred, but they had photos, trophies,
the defendant had taken the victim's decomposing body. Joining me,
doctor Michelle Duprie you know her well now if you
(25:01):
watched any portion of the Alexa Murdog double murder trial,
you know doctor Michelle Dupresci is also working tirelessly regarding
the eximation and the re autopsy and what that means
in the case of Stephen Smith, also out of South
Carolina Pathologists, medical examiner, former detective, and for US very
(25:24):
significant author of homicide investigation field guide. You know, doctor Dupree,
You've seen a lot of dead bodies, but the perp
that keeps a trophy that, like we think Coburger did,
Ed Guine, a serial killer, made masks with his victims' faces.
(25:44):
Von Milott kept his victims camping equipment at least seven
that we know of. He would start people camping, kill them,
bury them in the forest, but yet keep little bits
of their camping equipment. Listen to this one, doctor Dupree.
Alex the Mangel made a scalp wig. Now that was
(26:07):
up in Westchester, New York, but police originally deemed it
to be a wig, but it was actually the victim's scalp,
which the defendant wore as a wig when he grabbed
his next victim. Okay, we've all seen hamible elector. That's
nothing compared to the real life killers. Now, one guy
(26:29):
John and George Hay kept his victim's dog. Much has
been made about the dog in this case. The dog
in this case is alive, and well and actually has
to go fund me. Robert Hanson, as you know, kept
his victim's jewelry. Doctor Dupree, Johnny Christie kept his victim's
(26:49):
bodies hidden in the kitchen for a really long time.
Rifkin kept all sorts of trophies like a license plate,
under wear, bras, driver's licenses, jewelry, a library card, which
is kind of like in this case we think as
a student id Stanley Dean Baker kept his victims bones,
(27:11):
only select bones, not all of the bones. Particularly he
kept the finger bones. Dennis Nilsen kept body parts. Edmund
Kemper kept his mother's head. Now that's it, And I
could go on, I've got stacks and stacks of these guys,
But what about it, Doctor Deperee, you ever seen anything
(27:32):
like it? Nancy? I have actually, And to me, I
knew you were going to say that that's not a shock.
It may shock other people, but I knew you had, Okay,
go ahead. These people are scary. I mean, these people
are so out of touch with reality. I mean, how
you even explain this. I've had serial killer cases where
they did many of the same things like this, and
they're just sound like scary. I do not want to
(27:53):
meet these people anywhere, anytime, not in the dark alley
or anywhere. You know, I'm starting to believe that, doctor
Michelle Dupre, It's not that uncommon that killers keep mementos thoughts.
You're right, Nancy, And during my time as an investigator,
we actually saw some of that. I've even seen where
some of the killers would have turned the funeral of
(28:14):
their victim, even go so far as to put something
strange or a taunting note in the casket. I mean,
they do all sorts of strange things. It's just unbelievable.
All this is swirling as we learn about a potential
internal affairs investigation that could spell doom for the prosecution's case.
Take a listen to our cut three sixty three. This
(28:34):
is Amanda Eustace with WNAP. Documents of protection were filed
prohibiting anyone from discussing the contents of the internal affairs
investigation material. Regal says, it's hard to tell if this
is good or bad news for either side trying the case.
The last thing that a prosecution wants is to have
to do a case twice, so they want to make
(28:56):
sure that they have met the due process obligations and
provided the things that they're required to provide because that's
the only way that they get to do the case once. Now,
it's unclear over we'll ever learn what the information is about.
As of now, Brian Coburger remains locked up in Idaho jail.
His preliminary hearing is scheduled for June twenty six. Kayalen
(29:18):
Becker joining us from dailymail dot com, investigative reporter who
has thoroughly analyzed all the aspects of what we know
so far in the Brian Coburger prosecution. Caitlin, what can
you tell us about a potential internal affairs investigation? You know, Nancy? Unfortunately,
like you just heard, there really is not a lot
of information out there. Basically, all we know is that
(29:41):
an officer involved in the investigation had some sort of
Brady violation was being investigated internally, and that's kind of it. Okay,
let's talk about how devastating that would be to the police.
But doctor Jerry Crossen, psychologists and faculty at Saint Leo University,
I heard you jumping in earlier. What were you saying?
I was talking about the hidden momento there. One of
(30:05):
the key things to you. Look at is how secretive
he placed you know, that's a value to him. So
hiding it like he did to me, that's very significant, Okay,
because now it becomes more personalized as a trophy or momento.
I agree. I'm just imagining him going through all of
the effort to find the right hiding place for the
(30:25):
student id of one of the people he murdered. Oh yeah,
time stories with Nancy Grace. I want to talk about
(30:49):
Chris mcdonna, a former homicide detective now star of the
Interview Room, also the director at the Coal Case Foundation
dot org. Chris mcdonna an eternal, an eternal affairs investigation.
In other words, a potential dirty cop that can spell
doom for your case. And you would never believe the
(31:11):
cops that are somehow dirty. One bad apple can spoil
the whole bunch, and I'll never forget Chris McDonagh. I tried.
It wasn't called child sex trafficking or human trafficking then,
but I was trying to find a little girl that
was taken it like age thirteen and pimped out, I
(31:33):
mean pimped out. I couldn't find her, couldn't find her
couldn't find her. I and three vice detectives to work
in the streets and it was cold. Oh, it was
so cold outside for months, so I would handle my
plan arrangement calendar and then go out on the street
looking for this girl. We finally found her. And by
(31:53):
the way, when I did find her, she was in
a flophouse down on Stuart Avenue in Atlanta, where everybody's
sold dope and got hookers. I went in there and looked.
There were like three or four women in there, and
I came out, She's not in there. Why did you
even bring me here? They went, it's her and the
white boots. I went back in. This little girl, now fourteen,
looked like a thirty five year old woman with the
(32:16):
long weave and all the makeup and the high boots
and the short skirt and the false syelashes. It was
just like I couldn't eat when we got all that
off of her. She looked like she had to have
a little school uniform and go to school with my
daughter Lucy. But that said, we got the prosecute, we
got the conviction. It was about eight months later I
(32:40):
was working and somebody had a TV going on Meete
and I looked up and there was a sketch artist,
Chris McDonough in a federal courtroom, and I went, wow,
that kind of looked like Harrington, and I just kept
going because you know the sketch artists work never looks
like the person. Well, guess what it was. And his codefendants,
(33:02):
my three vice guys that I had worked with every
single day trying to find this little girl, as it
turned out, when I wasn't around, would bust dope lords
and take all their gold, jewelry and their money. And
it was so bad the fans did a sting on
the cops. Now how a jury cared about whether a
(33:24):
doper lost his gold chain, I don't know, but they
were prosecuted and convicted. So you think you know somebody,
you don't know them at all. What can an internal
affairs investigation due to a case, Well, it's as you've
eloquently laid out, Nancy, as a prosecutors were snipmare potential
(33:46):
and because you know, I actually got transferred into vice
years ago in nineteen eighty four to eighty six because
we had a guy who was taking favors on the
side for trans moving drugs to certain people and show
what this is about. The good news here is this
(34:07):
is Brady Discovery, right, and you can explain that forever, Nancy,
I have to go ahead. It was brought up by
the state, So the state was made aware of it
by the IA team, the Internal Affairs unit at the
PD and says, hey, one of our guys, by the way,
has this in his personnel file. You may want to
(34:28):
reveal this to the defense while you can and show
that's the upside of this, that the state brought it forward.
The downside is we don't know exactly what it is.
It could be just a citizens complaint about you know,
the officer was rude to me as much as Hey,
this guy's lied before, and you know, we need to
(34:50):
make sure that we get ahead of this. So it
could go either way. To Johnny Nacarate joining us former
shaff sergeant now Crime and Construction and for instance team supervisor.
You can find him at the Johnny law dot com.
Johnny as a former sheriff sergeant. You know what, every
cop that's dirty, they need to be thrown out and
(35:12):
prosecuted themselves, because it gives the rest of law enforcement,
who I believe are decent and honorable people a black eye,
and it can ruin a prosecution. When a jury finds
out a cop on the stand, a witness is dirty,
(35:32):
they can it can ruin the whole thing. Just like
an Alex Murlow. Let's use him again. Once he got
on the stand and he lied, it came out that
he had lied about being in those dog kennels at
the time of the martyrs, he lost all credibility. It
was over. He's a big fat liar. And if one
cop is lying, are they all lying? That's what can
(35:52):
go through the minds of the jury, Johnny and some
law enforcement. I mean, once you lie, and I mean
once you lie at all, whether it's an ia or
it's in court, you're done. It's a rat in the year.
Are going to be testifying anymore, and your career is
probably going to be over. Forget their career. Who cares
about their career? They did that to themselves. What about
(36:12):
the state's case? What about a true verdict? I mean,
didn't you see what happened in O. J. Simpson with
one cop? Oh? This Mark Tate, Johnny Knocarato, Yeah, I'll
tell you what a lion cop does. Johnny knocaratou is
in law enforcement. Uh, I'm not sure they teach pronunciation
(36:34):
necessarily of French colloquialism's foo pap. Let me enjoy my
one tiny triumph please. Mark is always right. I got
him on one thing. Let me enjoy the moment. For
peace's sake. You're enjoyed it, I am. I'm gonna say
it again, so pa woo. Okay, you know but so
so um yeah, yeah yeah. If you have an officer
(36:56):
on the stand upon whom the state relies, and the
defense catches him in a lie and they're able to
expose it for the first time in cross examination in
front of a jury, it can have a massive impact. However,
I would suggest that perhaps Johnny is a little bit
wrong in thinking that the state doesn't rely on lying
(37:20):
people all the time. Okay, Mark Tate, I did not
given to start confidence about confidential informance. Of course, they're
all dopers and bad guys themselves. That's who cis are,
Mark Tay, As I have often said to juries, who
do you think that bad guys hang out with nuns
(37:41):
and priests and virgins? How do you think a confidential
informant knows what the diapers are doing because he's a
bad guy there. It's just that simple. And I've had
to tell it to a jury like that many times.
But also sometimes you got to go to hell to
get your witness to put the devil in jail. And
you're not think one cop can bring down the Brian
(38:03):
Coburger case for the state, Mark Tate, I would recommend
not even putting this guy on the stand and making
my case without him. No, you can. But what I'm
saying is is that you one a prosecutor can know
they're going in with the disingenuous witness and explain it.
It's not the fact that the witness may be shifty.
(38:23):
The fact is that if the defense catches it by surprise,
it's the element of surprise. You never want the other
side to bring it out. You have to bring it out.
I just would try every way I could to avoid
him or her on the stand. Also, Caitlin Becker, we're
learning that the connection between Coburger and at least one
(38:46):
of the female victims possibly dates back to twenty twenty one.
Now this is what we knew up until now. Take
a listen to our cut three four eight. Our friends
at WPVI, we also learned today that the Coburger may
have even sent direct messages on Instagram to one are
the victims two weeks before the murders, with things like, hey,
(39:07):
how are you now? Weeks ago, investigators did reveal they
found a knife sheath near one of the bodies. They
recovers a man's DNA from that, and that was later
connected to Coburger through DNA found at his parents' home
and the Poconos, who was rated December twenty ninth, the
same day that the warrant was executed on his apartment itself.
The other thing is warrant does say. It says these
(39:28):
murders appeared to have been planned rather than a crime
that happened in a moment of conflict. Kaitlin Becker, investigative reporter,
dailymail dot Com, Hey how are you all right? But
now we're learning that his connection to at least one
of these victims may go back all the way to
(39:49):
twenty twenty one, before he even went to WSU, which
is about nine ten miles away from the murder scene.
They had to figure that out if in fact it's true. Kaitlinbecker,
through what we are now learning, our search warrants on
social media such as Google, Tender and staff. Also, we're
(40:14):
learning that the debit and credit cards of the victims
and the defendant were taken, I mean all of their records.
Were they at the same restaurant at the same time.
They're trying to make all of those connections, and these
warrants are dating back to at least twenty twenty one.
What do you make of it? You know, this makes
(40:35):
a lot of sense to me because we've been wondering
from the get go what the connection is between Koburger
and the victims, and of course how far back it goes.
And it really does seem like based on these search warrants,
and you mentioned a few of them, but there were
more than sixty that had been sent out, everything from
like you said, the bank accounts to eBay, to bunch
(40:56):
of dating apps all from Matt Group like Kinder, all
the metaproforms read it, Snapchat. All of these search warrants
have been sent out for the three female victims, and
for Coburger. It doesn't seem that even shape and name
was searched and as well within these documents, because it
(41:17):
looks like he just happened to have been really at
the wrong place at the wrong time, and that it
was the female victims that were at least one of
them the targets. So going back to January twenty twenty
one would really indicate to me that this had been planned,
obviously for far longer than we had even anticipated. My
(41:38):
biggest question now, Nancy, would be when de Sea decided
to apply to Washington State University? Is it before that
or after that, because it would be the most reasonable
to me that perhaps he had already applied, and he
had gone out and checked it out and been in
the area, and maybe that was the first time he
(41:59):
ran into I agree that is the most reasonable, But
somehow I don't know that reason applies to people like
Brian Coburger. Now that we know he actually kept a memento,
a memento of the murders, guys, we wait as the
evidence unfolds. Nancy Gray's crime story, signing off Goodbye Friend,
Host
Nancy Grace
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