May 13, 2024 • 42 mins
Ashlin Couch, former roommate of the Idaho students killed, is speaking out. Couch transferred her lease at 1122 King Road to Xana Kernodle just six months before Kernodle, Ethan Chapin, Madison Mogen, and Kaylee Goncalves were slain in the home.
Couch remembers getting an alert from the University and immediately reaching out to friends still in Moscow. Couch’s last text to Mogen before learning of her death was “Are you OK?” Couch followed up in a group chat with friends, “Has anyone heard from Maddie?” Couch says the thought that the murders could have happened earlier is unsettling, commenting that ‘you never know how long someone is watching your house.’
We also learn a friend of an officer working on the Bryan Kohberger murder investigation says Kohberger was very careful in the days before his arrest. The source says the cop followed Kohberger in Albrightsville, Pennsylvania, and observed him wearing plastic gloves while picking up groceries at a local Giant store. The cop also said that Kohberger’s cellphone pings matched the movements of the victims for weeks before the murders.
Joining Nancy Grace Today:
- Mark Tate - Trial Lawyer / Legal Analyst - Tate Law Group- TateLawGroup.com
- Caryn L. Stark – Psychologist, Renowned TV and Radio Trauma Expert and Consultant; Instagram: carynpsych/FB: Caryn Stark Private Practice
- Chris McDonough – Director At the Cold Case Foundation, Former Homicide Detective, coldcasefoundation.org, Host of YouTube channel: “The Interview Room”
- Joe Scott Morgan – Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, “Blood Beneath My Feet,” and Host: “Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan;” Twitter/X: @JoScottForensic
- Dave Mack- CrimeOnline Investigative Reporter
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Breaking news tonight, did Idaho sleigh suspect Brian Coburger actually
wear plastic surgical gloves in the grocery store for weeks
after the quadruple murders to avoid leaving a trail of
evidence and a Coburger cell phone pings tracked along with
(00:27):
the victims for weeks before the murders. This as the
victim's former roommate breaks her silence to reveal a final
text to slave victor Maddie Mogan in an eerie premonition.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Good evening, I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank
you for being with us.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
He texted, like, our group of friends and I just
had said, has anyone heard from Maddie? And I remember
like my last text message to her was like are
you okay? And I feel like, right then and there,
I kind of just knew that something was wrong.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
That emotional sound of the former roommate from our friends
at kxly you were hearing Ashlyn Couch as she desperately
tried to reach Mattie Mogan, having no idea what had happened. Again,
thank you for being with us. A lot happening in
the Brian Coburger case joining me an All Star panel
(01:28):
to make sense of what we know right now, but
first listen to this.
Speaker 4 (01:32):
Ashlyn Couch transferred her lease at eleven twenty two King
Road to Xander Kernodle just six months before Kernodle, Ethan
Shape and Madison Mogan and Kaylegan's office were slain in
the home. Couch remembers getting an alert from the university
and immediately reaching out to friends still in Moscow. Couch's
last text to Mogan before learning of her death was
are you okay? Couch followed up in a group chat
(01:53):
with friends. Has anyone heard from Mattie? Couch says, the
thought that the murders could have happened earlier is unsettling.
That you never know how long someone is watching your house.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Wow, again, you are hearing from k xl Y. That
was Ashlyn Couch speaking, trying again desperately to get in
touch with we now know murder vic to Matti Mogan
with me at All Star Panels straight out to Davemack,
Crimeonline dot Com investigative reporter, Dave explained to me the
time sequence as to what we're hearing from Ashlyn Couch,
(02:25):
the former roommate there at King Road.
Speaker 4 (02:27):
Well, Ashland was talking about how six months before this happened,
she actually was moving and so Xana Karnodle took over
her part of the lease on the King Road home,
got her room, but Ashland was still in contact with
her friends from there. And so during that time period
when the murders happened, an alert from the college went
out and said we've had a homicide near campus. And
(02:49):
immediately Ashlyn Couch thought of her friends in the King
Road house. That's why she was reaching out right away.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Guys, this young girl, Ashlyn Couch now speaking, will she
be a witness?
Speaker 1 (03:02):
What can she.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Tell us anything about the King wrote address at all?
And you know, to Chris mcdonaugh, a director of the
Cold Case Foundation, former homicide detective with over three hundred
homicides under his belt, and host of the popular YouTube
channel The Interview Room, you know, Chris mcdonna. The issue here,
(03:24):
as far as ashen Couch goes, the fact that she
had a premonition that's probably not going to be admissible
at trial, The fact that she tried desperately to reach
anybody the King wrote address, specifically trying to find out
what was happening with Mattie Mogan. When Maddie would not
respond that may not come into evidence. However, her knowledge
(03:50):
of the home, and I found it very curious what
she said when she said, you never know how long
somebody has been watching your house?
Speaker 5 (04:00):
Yeah, Nancy, that that statement in of itself is fascinating.
I mean the fact that she has a premonition as well,
you know, post the homicides here, that you know, she's
thinking when I was there, could somebody have been watching
me and or obviously her roommates there. So that itself,
I think the authorities, you know, need to dig into that,
(04:22):
if they haven't already. That's pretty telling.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
You know.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Hand in hand with what you were talking about is
potential evidence. And we saw it in the Alex Murdog
trial where Murdog's phone was traveling along with his wife,
Maggie Murdog, before her phone was thrown unceremoniously out of
his vehicle the night of the murders. Now reports that
(04:49):
we're going to hear evidence that his phone, Brian Cooberger,
was spotted in cell phone pings in and around where
the victims were in the weeks leading up to the
murders to Mark Tate joining me, high profile lawyer out
of Savannah, partner with the Tate Law Group.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
Mark, thank you for being with us.
Speaker 6 (05:10):
It's my pleasure.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
I know that it has been stated over and over now,
contrary to what was first put out there by some
of the victims' family members, that Coburger did not specifically stalk.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Any of the victims.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
But what do you make about that, of that potential
evidence that where they went on several occasions his cell
phone would ping as well.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
You think that's just a coincidence, Mark Tate, Well it
may be.
Speaker 6 (05:38):
You remember he went to school just eight miles away,
And if I was defending this case, I would say,
you know, if you're going to use cell phone pings
to prosecute him, then you have to look into the
fact that he has put forth an acceptably under Idaho law,
that he has an alibi, which is he has to
state a specific place where he was, and the witnesses
who will put him there. The witnesses here are the
(05:59):
cell phone pings. So the problem that we have here
is that the prosecution is going to use cell phone
pings to put him stalking these victims. Then they're going
to have to deal with the fact that he says
those same pings put him in the woods, stargazing or
whatever thing it is he's going to claim he's doing.
And so I think that the cell phone pings may
be helpful to and interestingly so to both sides, because
(06:22):
remember the defendants here, the defense counsel has a job
to maintain that this man is innocent until proven guilty
beyond a reasonable doubt, and they are fighting very hard.
They've made this easy for the prosecutor.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
Right, Hey, when you're betraying a rock and a hardspot,
do you just immediately regurgitate innocent until proven guilty. We
all know that everybody watching this program right now is
illegal Eagle. They want to know the very latest in
every single case. We all know he's presumed until proven innocent.
And my question to you, which he very skillfully evaded,
(06:56):
is if his cell phone is moving along.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Where they go.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
If they go to this food truck, there's his cell phone.
If they go to that restaurant, oop, there he is.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Again.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
I mean, isn't it true, Dave Mack that at one
bar he was actually asked to leave because he was
making female patrons feel totally schewed out by asking them
questions such as, Hey, what's your home address?
Speaker 4 (07:20):
Oh yeah, he freaked out. He actually scared people are
women in this bar to a point where they actually
made a note on the tickets when he had been
there previously. It wasn't just one time, Nancy. He had
been to this bar several times, and each time it
got progressively worse to where none of the women wanted
to wait on him anymore.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
So, you know, to you, Karen start joining us said, boy,
do we need a shrink? Karen Start Joining Us are
now on TV radio Trauma Expert Psychologists Consultant. It's Karenstark
dot Com. Karen with to see Karen, I'm going to
circle back to the pings potentially traveling along together and Karen,
I haven't even gotten to this dude wearing gloves to
(08:01):
the grocery store. I don't mean gloves because it's cold outside,
I mean surgeon gloves.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Okay, to the grocery store, Karen start. This is not
during COVID, where.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
People would you know, spray four oh nine on their
keying goods before they touched them. This isn't now the
year and now for weeks after the murders, This guy,
Brian Coburger was wearing surgical gloves everywhere he went. I'll
go back to that, but what do you make And
I'd like to hear the roommate the former roommate.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
One more time.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
This is Ashlen Couch on a very emotional statement and
this is from our friends a k XL Y listen.
Speaker 3 (08:45):
I texted like our group of friends, and I just
had said, has anyone.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Heard from Mady?
Speaker 3 (08:52):
And I remember like my last text message to her
was like are you okay? And I feel like then
and there, I kind of just knew that something was wrong.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
Karen start.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
How many times have we heard that where a victim's
family member or friend would know instinctively that something was
horribly wrong. And there's a whole issue of survivor's guilt,
Karen Stark. If I had called her earlier, if I
had asked her out that night, if we had been
at fill in the blank, if and then fill in
(09:24):
the blank, that's what a lot of the friends are
going through.
Speaker 7 (09:28):
Of course they are, Nancy, because we all know what
that's like. When you think if I had only been
able to and what's interesting we all have. I'm pretty
sure that experience of you have a feeling, you have
an instinct that something is wrong. And I know it
happens to me. We used to have them with my
(09:49):
mother all the time. It happens with my brother, my husband.
Sometimes you are so connected to people that you just
have a feeling that something is going on with them.
I think it's even happened between the two of us.
I've had that with you, You've had it with me.
When you know somebody really well, you are connected to
(10:10):
them over distance and you can feel it. And that's
what she's describing. We can all relate to that. We're
in the gloves. That's him protecting himself. This is a
man in total control, has to be on top of everything,
and now he's wearing gloves so that you can't get
near his DNA.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
I'm not surprised about that.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, jo Scott Morgan joining me.
Professor Forenzigs, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My
Feet on Amazon and start hit series Body Bags with
Joe Scott Morgan.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
Scott, thank you for being with us.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
I know in your line of business, having been to
over ten thousand death scenes in your career, you have
had many people say I knew something was wrong, and
it's one thing to embellish the facts as you look
back retrospectively. But this young girl, Ashley Couch, was actually
(11:19):
frantically trying to text all of her friends trying to find.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
Out where is Mattie.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
Because Jo Scott, you and I reveal a lot of
evidence it was atypical of Maddie mac not to respond
and that struck concern as the hours ticked by.
Speaker 8 (11:38):
It gives you pause. I think when you're conducting an investigation,
if someone deviates from their normal day to day routines,
and particularly when you're talking about responding to friends that
are considered to be within your intimate circle, that's something
that would give an individual pause. But Nacy, I have
another kind of chilling little side note about this and
(11:58):
this young lady. You know she moved on from her lease,
and do you know when she moved on from her
lease and turned it over, It approximates almost the same
exact time that Coburg shows up up in Washington. This
goes back to I think probably June May perhaps, And
(12:19):
that's another little chilling piece to this can you imagine
now retrospectively, that Ashlynd is sitting back and thinking about this,
that you know, almost one of those there, but for
the grace of God go I moments and again it
adds another layer of horror to this Nancy.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
You know one thing.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
I've really hated throughout this, Joscott Morgan, is the way
that some of the victims have been portrayed as like
party girls, tramps.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
Staying out too late drinking. That's not true. Yes, they
were out that night, they were heading into the Thanksgiving weekend.
They were not.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
Out any later than any other student would be on
a party night. None of these girls have arrest histories.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
No, nothing like that. They're all making.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
Good grades, They're beloved by their family. And you know what,
Joscott Morgan, as I always say, birds of a feather
flock together. When I look at Ashland Couch and I
hear her speak, that tells me not only who she is,
but who her friends are. I mean, just Scott, I
(13:32):
don't see you hanging out with the dope dealer down
at the corner. Why because you have nothing in common
in college in law school, people go, hey, did you go.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
To that party? Friday night. I'm like, no, I'm studying.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
I got two jobs and I've got to get through
law school and I got to pass the bar on
the first try.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
That's not what I was doing.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
I have my eye on a different prize. When I
look at Ashlyn Couch, the good girl, that tells me
who these victims were. And I've had it about up
to hear with people trashing them or their parents or
their mom or I think is so wrong, and that
is going to happen at this trial unless the judge
(14:14):
wakes up and pays attention.
Speaker 8 (14:16):
One of the things I found fascinating about her interaction
and particularly where she was domiciled in this location, and
you know you were mentioning earlier, could she testify this
is what I think personally, that she's going to testify
to kind of the standard rattle and hum of what
it was like living in that home. Remember, as you
had mentioned talking about party and all this sort of thing.
One of the things that came out early on in
(14:38):
this case was this thought that this was party central. Right,
no one knows the codes to the door. It's always open,
the sliders are open. People can come and go as
they please. Well, Ashlyn. I think kind of from a
historic standpoint, she will be able to talk about that
as she lived there, and this is not something that
perhaps just occurred out of the blue. If this was
(14:59):
a party location, it had been a party location for
a while, and I think that that's gonna be rather
probative in this case.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
Hey, and another thing about that, Joe Scott Morgan, I
will never forget. I moved into off campus housing with
some other co eds.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
This is an undergrad and I had my parents come visit.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
I got it all ready and cleaned at everything. Well,
wouldn't you know, this was on a Saturday night. They
were coming Sunday after church. I was waiting on them.
Little did I know that the guys below me I
lived on the top floor, the SAEs. I had no
idea who they were. I never knew them, had had
(15:40):
a huge kegger in the front yard and had somebody
had spray painted curse words all on the interior of
when my parents walked in. I'm not even gonna say
what they were, but they alluded to sex acts. And
my parents walked in and see this in red spray painted.
I had not even seen. I was, you know, mortified,
(16:01):
so I think you're right, this girl ashen Couch could
testify to you say, the home and the flow of
living there. But I was thinking about something else, Joe Scott.
I was thinking about, you know that sliding glass door
that Chris mcdonna and I kept looking at, wondering if
that was the point of entry. I wonder if she
could testify if it locked, if it was easily accessible,
(16:22):
and there's one on each level.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
Were there ever alarms in the home? So many things?
Speaker 2 (16:29):
Also during these parties, could somebody sneak in and out
that wasn't invited? You see where I'm headed. She is
really a Pandora's box of information about the murder scene.
Speaker 8 (16:40):
Yeah she is. And you know you talk about the
functionality this door's access and opportunity. Of course she's going
to be the only one to be able to tell
that tale, now, isn't she?
Speaker 2 (16:49):
Nancy?
Speaker 8 (16:49):
Because we can't go back to the physical structure.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
Well, you've got you've got the two roommates that survived.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
Remember we do.
Speaker 8 (16:57):
But I think that that perhaps in this particular case,
you know, when it gets down to it, can she
actually and again this goes back to history, if the
door was not functioning the lock did not work. How
far back in time does she go, as like this
place her place of residence. How long had it been
for instance, if it was, how long had it not
been functioning. I'd like to know the answer to that
(17:20):
question and the points of access. Could someone be heard
coming in through that door again acoustically? She's going to
be able to testify to that.
Speaker 9 (17:28):
A friend of an officer working the Brian Coburger murder
investigation says Coburger was very careful in the days before
his arrest. The source says the cop followed Coburger in Albrightsville, Pennsylvania,
and observed him wearing plastic gloves while picking up groceries
at a local Giant store. The cop also said that
(17:49):
Coberger's cell phone pings matched the movements of the victims
for weeks before the murders.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
Oh, just right, till the jury hears this, listen.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
You cannot under the law under the US Constitution as
it has been interpreted through case law cases that have
occurred after the Constitution. Of course, you cannot bring in
a suspect a defendant's bad reputation. You cannot bring in
evidence of bad acts unless they can be verified, and
(18:20):
they are similar to the case in chief, and we're
in a timely manner. But here when the police surveillance,
if this is confirmed, police surveillance are following Coburger and
they see him wearing plastic gloves into the grocery store,
(18:40):
apparently wearing plastic surgical type gloves for weeks after the murders.
Why And you're gonna hate this Mark tape, which makes
me super happy. Mark Tap renowned defense attorney.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
You know what I love to tell a jury if
you don't know a horse. Look at that is track
record number one.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
While these same cops were watching Coburger, they knew they
were going to arrest him. They were trying to get
DNA evidence. They already had some DNA evidence. Now they
needed the dad's DNA evidences. Driving along with Coburger, the
dad's just chatting away like nothing's wrong with the Coburger's.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
Like, what the why are the cops pulling us over? Okay,
stay with me.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
They're watching Coburger and they see Coburger outside putting the
family trash in the neighbors trash cans the dumpster, wearing gloves.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
Wait, not done yet, Not done yet.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
There were other times he's seen wearing gloves. Why why
is he wearing gloves all the time?
Speaker 1 (19:53):
Mark Tate?
Speaker 2 (19:54):
And how do you think that is going to affect
a jury?
Speaker 1 (19:59):
Oh, I know it was. It came.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
I gotta tell you more so when they arrest Coburger, Okay,
when they arrest him.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
When they go it to his parents' home in.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
The Poconos, they go in, it's like two, three, four
o'clock in the morning.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
Coburger is standing there in the kitchen. Why is he up?
Speaker 2 (20:17):
And everybody else is asleep in the middle of the
night and shorts.
Speaker 6 (20:21):
I don't know you this morning. Well, no one's checking
out what you're wearing.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
It you were.
Speaker 6 (20:30):
Gloves, gloves, all rights.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
And that's just off the top of my head. One
of the cops can tell me about more instances and
wearing gloves.
Speaker 6 (20:40):
And in one instance he was throwing trash away. Can
you think of a better reason to wear gloves?
Speaker 1 (20:46):
Now?
Speaker 6 (20:47):
In the other instance, so I.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
Can't get my DNA with rupel murder, that's a good reason.
Speaker 6 (20:53):
Yeah, I understand, No, I got you, But maybe throwing
trash away it's okay to wear gloves. I don't know.
That's not something I think i'd rest my I had on.
As a prosecutor, however, I every single line that you mentioned,
well that he might have a problem win in this case.
I mean, you know you're not prosecuting it. So every
single time that a prosecutor comes up with a new
(21:13):
piece of evidence that requires witnesses to get in, as
a defense lawyer, I find that to be wonderful because
that gives me a whole nother opportunity to ask questions
that may or may not help me argue that there
is a reason to have a doubt about the guilt
of this man. And every witness is vulnerable, and some
of these people are going to rely on are not
(21:34):
experienced in handling the cross examination that I intend to
bring them. And if I'm able to say at the
end of the case that the prosecutor relies on this
person who's unreliable, then why should you convict We saw
it happen, You and I saw it happen together when
a man who murdered a woman and the man who
was driving is Ferrari around town walked because a glove
(21:54):
didn't fit. And I'm just saying that there is no
foregone conclusion in any youury trial, and these defense lawyers
are going to put this prosecution team to the test.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
Clearly to Chris mcdunnad joining me veteran homicide detective and
your star. No, no, no, no, I'm going to somebody
that's let me just say a little less impeachable, Chris mcdonna,
have you ever heard which apparently they did not teach
us to mark Tate in moot court in law schools
SDSU sit down and shut up. Okay, that's just one
(22:30):
of those things you should learn. As hard for us
lawyers to do that because we think we can just
keep talking and then suddenly everybody's gonna agree with us.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
Uh uh. You tell twelve people.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
That this guy has got on surgical gloves in the
grocery store.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
You know why he did that?
Speaker 2 (22:50):
Right, if this could be confirmed, because he's heard about
all those cases we've been talking about. Wait till jo
Scott Morgan jumps in on DNA Where cops can get
your DNA off a beer can.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
A coffee cup, a pizza crust.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
This guy was wearing gloves when he was getting rid
of trash in the neighbors Dixie dumpster.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
When he was sorting through.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
Trash and putting it into plastic zip lock bags in
his kitchen, his parents' kitchen.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
And it just goes on and on and on.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
I can't wait for a jury of twelve regular people
like us to hear this guy about his surgical gloves
all around the time with the murders.
Speaker 5 (23:30):
Yeah, absolutely, Nancy. I mean, it just happens to be
a coincidence that, you know, he decides to throw his
trash out in his neighbor's ben and then of course,
you know he takes these four am drives, or at
least he's awake at four am. You know, every moment
you think about this guy. If you look at all
of his phone pings, you know, does the guy ever sleep?
(23:52):
You know where we're not seeing these gloves though, one
All of these these glove incidents show up post incident.
But you know where we're not seeing it. We're not
seeing it in the classroom before the incident. We're not
seeing it in any of the photos of traffic stops
where he stopped before the homicides. And guess what, we're
(24:12):
not seeing it in the courtroom today. So I don't
know what the deal is. You know that a jury
wouldn't you know, say, why is this guy wearing gloves
at four a m. And you know, good luck for
the defense on trying.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
To show on.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
Let me throw this to our DNA expert, Joseph Scott Morgan,
Professor Forensics.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
You know, all of this.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
Is just anecdote on my back and forth with Mark.
Take that anecdotal telling a story. Okay?
Speaker 1 (24:38):
Can we talk about hard evidence if it's true?
Speaker 2 (24:42):
To look at the horses track record, you know what
that would tell me that he wore surgical gloves at
some point that night, Okay, when he was in that
home murdering those four people. And you may ask Joe
Scott Morgan, then how would his DNA be on the
knife shift?
Speaker 1 (25:00):
I'll tell you why. How many times do.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
You think an anal compulsive like Brian Coberger had practiced
opening that knife and fiddling with that knife and playing
with that knife and admiring that knife.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
That's how the DNA got on there.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
I think I think you were surgical gloves that night,
and I would be very surprised if we find his
actual fingerprints anywhere in that home.
Speaker 8 (25:22):
It'd be tough to find, I think, and we probably
would have an indication of that. But yeah, I've held
throughout this, you know, when they found that sheath and
that contact DNA was there on that the snap, I
always had this idea of of of him actuating the button,
you know, sitting there with that snap, trying to flick
(25:44):
it back and forth to see how smoothly he could
do that. And some people have said, and I've had
people say this to me about this, well, why wasn't
his DNA found on other locations on the sheath? And
this is what I submit it. I think that he
may have wiped that sheath down at some point in time,
But the devil is always in the details. Nancy. That
(26:07):
little hidden underneath side of that snap, which I think
is where they probably recovered it, is not a place
that you would commonly consider to wipe it down if
you're looking to get rid of anything that was there,
that would be an identifier for you. It's an area
that he may have missed and he left it behind
(26:28):
in that one tiny area. I'm also interested in what
type of gloves he had at his home. Did they
find other gloves, So that's going to be a big
tell in this case. Nancy.
Speaker 10 (26:40):
Part of the hearing on the fourteenth is to talk
about the different parts of that video that we've received
and how we need the whole contacts. This is the
video that they say places this car near the residence.
We've received little tiny pieces of that. We think Brian's
right to a fair try. I mean, the public needs
(27:01):
to know that they've withheld the audio from a great
portion of that and that it starts a long time
before the little clip that we've received.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
Man, is she burying the lead.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
She's complaining about the audio not being attached to the video.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
Here's the bombshell.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
There you are hearing the defense attorney for Brian Koburger
and Taylor talking about the existence of video that places
Coburger's car, the white Elantra, near the crime scene.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
Yeah, that's the big deal.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
We believe that there's going to be two different video
clips shown to the jury, one near the home and
one near the gas station there at the corner. And
I'm going to let Chris mcdonnet describe the gas station
video what he believes it will portray, and the video
(28:02):
at the home we believe is going to portray. Guys
with me, an all star panel makes sense of what
we know, right now go ahay, Chris McDonald, everybody take
off your gloves. I promise not to collect your DNA. Well,
not during the show anyway, Go ahead.
Speaker 5 (28:16):
Yeah, So Nancy, right next to the murder scene, there's
a house right on the corner there, and outside in
the light socket for the front porch was an active
surveillance camera. I believe that the evidence will show that
that car comes up that street multiple times, and those
(28:39):
are the clips that they're holding back, as well as
the additional piece of evidence that they're going to show
is away from the scene. They're going to show that
that vehicle was either a coming into the crime scene
area and or be leaving. And I don't know if
they're going to be able to correlate that in relationship
to some of the phone things, because remember he turned
(29:01):
his phone off, so you know, that end of itself
is going to be interesting. Now, What's one other thing
I just want to make a point on here is
you know, the defense is saying they need to see
this video, yet they held the alibi for over a year,
so my sense is they're still working on that particular
(29:22):
forensic side of the evidence that's going.
Speaker 6 (29:24):
To be presented.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
Crime stories with Nancy Grace too Jessine Scott Morgan, forensic.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
Expert and professor at Jacksonville State University. I was listening
to every word she says, and she's saying that they've
gotten tiny pieces of the car near the residence.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
You know what that tells me?
Speaker 2 (29:53):
Also tiny pieces of the car, and she wants it
in context. That tells me there may be be more
than one surveillance video around the King Road.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
Murder scene that's catching the car.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
Do you remember the Photus Dulo's prosecution where missing Connecticut
mama find Jennifer Dulos went missing and there was a
copious amount of.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
Blood, her blood found in the garage. You couldn't survive
the loss of that much blood, so we know she's dead.
And then the police.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
There in Connecticut put together it was pretty incredible. Let
me just say, yes, Yes, a whole scene, a whole
timeline via different video of what Photus Dulos, the husband
now did, was doing.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
You see him leaving, You see it.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
Pick up with a red light cam seeing him cutting through.
You see him from a business cam surveillance video going
back and all the time he's going straight to the
car wash to get the car detail, but yet still
and even replacing the back seat which still had Jennifer's
hair on it and blood. As I recall, even when
(31:08):
a public bus door opened, you see his cargo by
because a lot of the buses have cams in them,
and they put together a collage to show his movements.
That's what I'm hearing right here is Ann Taylor is
complaining about little tiny pieces of the video placing the
(31:28):
car near the residents, according to police, and.
Speaker 1 (31:31):
She doesn't like that, and she thinks that's not fair.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
But what it is is different video cameras picking him
up along the way.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
Did you decipher that? Am I feeding you? Spoon feeding you?
Speaker 11 (31:44):
No?
Speaker 8 (31:44):
Here's the thing, you know, these ring cams and these
CCTV obviously they're more prevalent today than at any other
point in time in history, and so we don't necessarily
know about where all of these clips are coming from.
We do know that the area that he was in,
allegedly this car moving back and forth, is going to
(32:05):
be the most densely populated area in this geographic location.
You know, you get out in these areas that are
far flong. Remember the loop that they talk about that
where they collected. They were trying to collect images off
of these gas station cams and wherever else the car
may have passed, this is going to be the target
rich area though around that residence at that point in time,
(32:26):
because you never know, you know, and you think about
just for instance, you think about one of these cars
like a Tesla for instance, that has an indwelling cam
that can pick things up. Did they shake the bushes
enough to collect enough of this data out there to
piece the sin completely together? Apparently she thinks they may have.
Speaker 5 (32:43):
Nancy at least say that this ALII is you now
driving around.
Speaker 7 (32:52):
That I work.
Speaker 5 (32:57):
And that is alilar.
Speaker 12 (32:59):
So what the defend has still failed to is to
comply by the nineteen five nineteen and I are portable
point one. The specific number requires a defendant to provide
identify on natings of witnesses who will be called the
support the alibi the law of their accesses.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
Okay, the alibi was ripped apart by the prosecutor in
the last hearing, and there's.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
A very good reason for that.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
Just as the state has to hand over all of
their witnesses and how to contact their witnesses for the
defense to have the opportunity to interview them prior to trial.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
The defense has to do that too. So why is
it that the.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
Only corroboration mark tape that Coburger is bringing on is
a set of cell phone pings?
Speaker 6 (33:50):
But there's nothing wrong with that. The prosecution has indicated
they're going to rely on cell phone pings. And the
rule the law about alibi and who is anytime after
arraignment you're allowed to tell the defendants, tell the prosecutors
rather that you're going to rely on alibi, and you
have to disclose your witnesses. However, here the witnesses are
(34:11):
cell phone pings, just like the prosecutions relying on cell
phone pings. So is the defendant rely allowed to rely
as well. Now, of course that's going to be put
in front of a jury, just like issues about whether
he wore gloves and how strange that is. All of
that will be admitted by witnesses, all of whom are
subject to a sifting cross examination. And so now the
(34:33):
prosecution knows there's going to be an alibi defense, and
when there is, it has to be supported by admissible evidence.
And so with each week.
Speaker 1 (34:43):
Evidence to me, I got it.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
Hey, that's what the defense layer has to do.
Speaker 1 (34:50):
That's what they update.
Speaker 6 (34:51):
A little bit of prosecution feet to the fire.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
Can you put up that graphic?
Speaker 2 (34:59):
I've got a pair here for you, but maybe you
could borry Koburger's.
Speaker 1 (35:02):
Oh wait, no, they're in evidence.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
You know, as we were talking earlier, uh, joining me,
Chris McDonough, you were talking about the pings and you
didn't get to say it on air, but Tate is
all about, Oh, the pings are going to help exonerate him.
Wait a minute, Okay, he's at home to forty two
he said, hum back at home at five point twenty seven.
(35:24):
He's at home at not nine thirty two am, but
wait a minute. Four point fifty phone ping, four forty eight,
phone turned back on. Wait, two forty seven am, right
before the murders.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
In the middle of the night while.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
He's out stargazing, he decides to turn his phone off
from two forty seven to four forty eight. Wow, Chris mcdona,
is that exactly when the time that murders occurred?
Speaker 6 (35:51):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (35:52):
Absolutely, Nancy. And what's interesting a little and you going
to do it out?
Speaker 13 (35:57):
You know. The one thing we learned about this shalliby
as well is all four of the victims are sound asleep,
and you know the twelve other times that he was
seen around that neighborhood, they were also asleep.
Speaker 5 (36:10):
But in this particular case, you have the phone things
that get up to the point where they turn off
and then all of a sudden, the video picks it
back up in the neighborhood. I eve the car. So
you know, to try to sell that, you know, from
the defense. Whenever you hear a defense attorney say, you know,
the public has a right to know, and there's a
(36:31):
gag er, that's usually a clue that there's something coming.
Speaker 6 (36:35):
Yeah, I don't think the public has a right to know.
I think that the defendant has a right to know.
There's nothing about this. This is the public has a
right to know. That's the defendant's right to know to
defend himself. So I don't really care about the public
indefendent this guy. I'm just saying that, you know, if
the prosecution can use pings, the defendant can use pings.
Speaker 11 (36:55):
Coburger has spent over five hundred days in jail awaiting trial.
Every day in the jail cost one hundred and ninety
four dollars, totaling nearly one hundred thousand dollars so far.
Coburger's defense team bills over five hundred dollars an hour.
The hours police spent costs nearly a million dollars. The
University of Idaho left with a massive bill, spending one
(37:18):
point four million dollars on increased security and another two
hundred thousand on counseling individual It's estimated taxpayers spent roughly
three point six million as a result of the murders day.
Speaker 1 (37:32):
Matt, what did I just.
Speaker 4 (37:33):
Hear well for Brian Coberger's defense team to pretty much
spend at will. I never heard of anything like this
in my life, Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
Okay, a total of three point six million dollars the
taxpayers are paid for Coburger.
Speaker 4 (37:49):
When they say we paid that the taxpayer money, I
wish they would actually send me a question here about
what I'm willing to pay for, you know, ahead of time,
because this is ridiculous.
Speaker 2 (37:58):
Three point six million billion dollars on Coburger and all
of his defense attorneys and experts. We're now learning about
Coburger bringing on another expert to try and shore up
his alibi che ching.
Speaker 4 (38:15):
Listen the document filed serves the Coburger's official alibi and
claims quote mister Coburger was out driving in the early
morning hours of November thirteen, twenty twenty two, as he
often did to hike and run and or see the
moon and stars. He drove throughout the area south of Pullman, Washington,
west of Moscow, Idaho, including well why we Park. To
further solidify his alibi, Coberger said he plans to offer
(38:38):
testimony from a CSLI expert to show that he was
south of Pullman and west of Moscow at the time
of the murders, and that he did not travel east
on the Moscow Pullman Highway in the early morning hours
of November thirteen, twenty twenty two.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
Okay, Chris McDonald, what is a CSLI expert?
Speaker 5 (38:57):
That expert, Nancy will be an individual that will be
able to tell investigators in or a jury what the
signature is of that phone, i e. The information coming
out of that phone to the nearby cell telligence you know.
Speaker 1 (39:10):
To you, Karen Stark, I know.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
I hope the state doesn't get bogged down in a
lot of scientific evidence. That's what happened in the Tottenham
Casey Anthony trial. Where she killed her daughter Kelly and
was acquitted. But that evidence was true, but it did
get bogged down. You know what once the jury hears
(39:34):
that after the murders, this guy went everywhere wearing plastic gloves.
You know, I don't need an expert to tell me
that's evidence of guilt.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
And I don't mean just that, Karen Stark, not just that.
Speaker 2 (39:47):
Of course, the DNA on the knife, the fact that
he ordered the exact same knife and she from Amazon.
But what it's missing, nobody can find it. The cell phone,
the video stream cobble together where we see his movements
that night. There's so much evidence, Karen, much less this.
Speaker 7 (40:08):
You're talking about a guy who needs complete control and dominance. Nancy.
I know this is going to come out. And how
telling is it that the phone is on and right
before the murders he turns it off, And that to
me is completely compelling. And this guy, he has a
history of steering at women to the point where they
(40:30):
throw him out of restaurants. But he's been complained about,
he's been said that he's odd. He takes control in
a classroom, he has his studies how to do murders.
Speaker 1 (40:42):
Well, you know, Karen Stark.
Speaker 2 (40:44):
It hasn't come out yet, and I don't think that
it will be part of the evidence because it will
be very inflammatory. But when I was in Moscow and
around Pullman speaking to people there, several female steertudents came
up to talk about how angry he would act at them,
great them.
Speaker 1 (41:05):
Much more severely than he did men.
Speaker 2 (41:08):
I mean, it was very compelling evidence that this guy
hates women. I mean, I had to be a strength
to figure out why. But I bet the jury will
never hear all that. Everything changing every day in the
lead up to this trial. Let's stop and remember American
hero Captain Jack Casey.
Speaker 1 (41:30):
Just twenty six.
Speaker 2 (41:32):
Casey passed away with four other Marines and a helicopter
crash this February. A US Marine, he earned the National
Defense Service Medal. He has survived by grieving wife Emma,
his mother Catherine, and his father James. American hero Captain
Jack Casey. Everyone, I want to thank you for being
(41:55):
with us tonight. Thank you to our guests as well.
Nancy Gray signing off, good night friend,
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Breaking news tonight, did Idaho sleigh suspect Brian Coburger actually
wear plastic surgical gloves in the grocery store for weeks
after the quadruple murders to avoid leaving a trail of
evidence and a Coburger cell phone pings tracked along with
(00:27):
the victims for weeks before the murders. This as the
victim's former roommate breaks her silence to reveal a final
text to slave victor Maddie Mogan in an eerie premonition.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Good evening, I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank
you for being with us.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
He texted, like, our group of friends and I just
had said, has anyone heard from Maddie? And I remember
like my last text message to her was like are
you okay? And I feel like, right then and there,
I kind of just knew that something was wrong.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
That emotional sound of the former roommate from our friends
at kxly you were hearing Ashlyn Couch as she desperately
tried to reach Mattie Mogan, having no idea what had happened. Again,
thank you for being with us. A lot happening in
the Brian Coburger case joining me an All Star panel
(01:28):
to make sense of what we know right now, but
first listen to this.
Speaker 4 (01:32):
Ashlyn Couch transferred her lease at eleven twenty two King
Road to Xander Kernodle just six months before Kernodle, Ethan
Shape and Madison Mogan and Kaylegan's office were slain in
the home. Couch remembers getting an alert from the university
and immediately reaching out to friends still in Moscow. Couch's
last text to Mogan before learning of her death was
are you okay? Couch followed up in a group chat
(01:53):
with friends. Has anyone heard from Mattie? Couch says, the
thought that the murders could have happened earlier is unsettling.
That you never know how long someone is watching your house.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Wow, again, you are hearing from k xl Y. That
was Ashlyn Couch speaking, trying again desperately to get in
touch with we now know murder vic to Matti Mogan
with me at All Star Panels straight out to Davemack,
Crimeonline dot Com investigative reporter, Dave explained to me the
time sequence as to what we're hearing from Ashlyn Couch,
(02:25):
the former roommate there at King Road.
Speaker 4 (02:27):
Well, Ashland was talking about how six months before this happened,
she actually was moving and so Xana Karnodle took over
her part of the lease on the King Road home,
got her room, but Ashland was still in contact with
her friends from there. And so during that time period
when the murders happened, an alert from the college went
out and said we've had a homicide near campus. And
(02:49):
immediately Ashlyn Couch thought of her friends in the King
Road house. That's why she was reaching out right away.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Guys, this young girl, Ashlyn Couch now speaking, will she
be a witness?
Speaker 1 (03:02):
What can she.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Tell us anything about the King wrote address at all?
And you know, to Chris mcdonaugh, a director of the
Cold Case Foundation, former homicide detective with over three hundred
homicides under his belt, and host of the popular YouTube
channel The Interview Room, you know, Chris mcdonna. The issue here,
(03:24):
as far as ashen Couch goes, the fact that she
had a premonition that's probably not going to be admissible
at trial, The fact that she tried desperately to reach
anybody the King wrote address, specifically trying to find out
what was happening with Mattie Mogan. When Maddie would not
respond that may not come into evidence. However, her knowledge
(03:50):
of the home, and I found it very curious what
she said when she said, you never know how long
somebody has been watching your house?
Speaker 5 (04:00):
Yeah, Nancy, that that statement in of itself is fascinating.
I mean the fact that she has a premonition as well,
you know, post the homicides here, that you know, she's
thinking when I was there, could somebody have been watching
me and or obviously her roommates there. So that itself,
I think the authorities, you know, need to dig into that,
(04:22):
if they haven't already. That's pretty telling.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
You know.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Hand in hand with what you were talking about is
potential evidence. And we saw it in the Alex Murdog
trial where Murdog's phone was traveling along with his wife,
Maggie Murdog, before her phone was thrown unceremoniously out of
his vehicle the night of the murders. Now reports that
(04:49):
we're going to hear evidence that his phone, Brian Cooberger,
was spotted in cell phone pings in and around where
the victims were in the weeks leading up to the
murders to Mark Tate joining me, high profile lawyer out
of Savannah, partner with the Tate Law Group.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
Mark, thank you for being with us.
Speaker 6 (05:10):
It's my pleasure.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
I know that it has been stated over and over now,
contrary to what was first put out there by some
of the victims' family members, that Coburger did not specifically stalk.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Any of the victims.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
But what do you make about that, of that potential
evidence that where they went on several occasions his cell
phone would ping as well.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
You think that's just a coincidence, Mark Tate, Well it
may be.
Speaker 6 (05:38):
You remember he went to school just eight miles away,
And if I was defending this case, I would say,
you know, if you're going to use cell phone pings
to prosecute him, then you have to look into the
fact that he has put forth an acceptably under Idaho law,
that he has an alibi, which is he has to
state a specific place where he was, and the witnesses
who will put him there. The witnesses here are the
(05:59):
cell phone pings. So the problem that we have here
is that the prosecution is going to use cell phone
pings to put him stalking these victims. Then they're going
to have to deal with the fact that he says
those same pings put him in the woods, stargazing or
whatever thing it is he's going to claim he's doing.
And so I think that the cell phone pings may
be helpful to and interestingly so to both sides, because
(06:22):
remember the defendants here, the defense counsel has a job
to maintain that this man is innocent until proven guilty
beyond a reasonable doubt, and they are fighting very hard.
They've made this easy for the prosecutor.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
Right, Hey, when you're betraying a rock and a hardspot,
do you just immediately regurgitate innocent until proven guilty. We
all know that everybody watching this program right now is
illegal Eagle. They want to know the very latest in
every single case. We all know he's presumed until proven innocent.
And my question to you, which he very skillfully evaded,
(06:56):
is if his cell phone is moving along.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Where they go.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
If they go to this food truck, there's his cell phone.
If they go to that restaurant, oop, there he is.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Again.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
I mean, isn't it true, Dave Mack that at one
bar he was actually asked to leave because he was
making female patrons feel totally schewed out by asking them
questions such as, Hey, what's your home address?
Speaker 4 (07:20):
Oh yeah, he freaked out. He actually scared people are
women in this bar to a point where they actually
made a note on the tickets when he had been
there previously. It wasn't just one time, Nancy. He had
been to this bar several times, and each time it
got progressively worse to where none of the women wanted
to wait on him anymore.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
So, you know, to you, Karen start joining us said, boy,
do we need a shrink? Karen Start Joining Us are
now on TV radio Trauma Expert Psychologists Consultant. It's Karenstark
dot Com. Karen with to see Karen, I'm going to
circle back to the pings potentially traveling along together and Karen,
I haven't even gotten to this dude wearing gloves to
(08:01):
the grocery store. I don't mean gloves because it's cold outside,
I mean surgeon gloves.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Okay, to the grocery store, Karen start. This is not
during COVID, where.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
People would you know, spray four oh nine on their
keying goods before they touched them. This isn't now the
year and now for weeks after the murders, This guy,
Brian Coburger was wearing surgical gloves everywhere he went. I'll
go back to that, but what do you make And
I'd like to hear the roommate the former roommate.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
One more time.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
This is Ashlen Couch on a very emotional statement and
this is from our friends a k XL Y listen.
Speaker 3 (08:45):
I texted like our group of friends, and I just
had said, has anyone.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Heard from Mady?
Speaker 3 (08:52):
And I remember like my last text message to her
was like are you okay? And I feel like then
and there, I kind of just knew that something was wrong.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
Karen start.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
How many times have we heard that where a victim's
family member or friend would know instinctively that something was
horribly wrong. And there's a whole issue of survivor's guilt,
Karen Stark. If I had called her earlier, if I
had asked her out that night, if we had been
at fill in the blank, if and then fill in
(09:24):
the blank, that's what a lot of the friends are
going through.
Speaker 7 (09:28):
Of course they are, Nancy, because we all know what
that's like. When you think if I had only been
able to and what's interesting we all have. I'm pretty
sure that experience of you have a feeling, you have
an instinct that something is wrong. And I know it
happens to me. We used to have them with my
(09:49):
mother all the time. It happens with my brother, my husband.
Sometimes you are so connected to people that you just
have a feeling that something is going on with them.
I think it's even happened between the two of us.
I've had that with you, You've had it with me.
When you know somebody really well, you are connected to
(10:10):
them over distance and you can feel it. And that's
what she's describing. We can all relate to that. We're
in the gloves. That's him protecting himself. This is a
man in total control, has to be on top of everything,
and now he's wearing gloves so that you can't get
near his DNA.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
I'm not surprised about that.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, jo Scott Morgan joining me.
Professor Forenzigs, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My
Feet on Amazon and start hit series Body Bags with
Joe Scott Morgan.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
Scott, thank you for being with us.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
I know in your line of business, having been to
over ten thousand death scenes in your career, you have
had many people say I knew something was wrong, and
it's one thing to embellish the facts as you look
back retrospectively. But this young girl, Ashley Couch, was actually
(11:19):
frantically trying to text all of her friends trying to find.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
Out where is Mattie.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
Because Jo Scott, you and I reveal a lot of
evidence it was atypical of Maddie mac not to respond
and that struck concern as the hours ticked by.
Speaker 8 (11:38):
It gives you pause. I think when you're conducting an investigation,
if someone deviates from their normal day to day routines,
and particularly when you're talking about responding to friends that
are considered to be within your intimate circle, that's something
that would give an individual pause. But Nacy, I have
another kind of chilling little side note about this and
(11:58):
this young lady. You know she moved on from her lease,
and do you know when she moved on from her
lease and turned it over, It approximates almost the same
exact time that Coburg shows up up in Washington. This
goes back to I think probably June May perhaps, And
(12:19):
that's another little chilling piece to this can you imagine
now retrospectively, that Ashlynd is sitting back and thinking about this,
that you know, almost one of those there, but for
the grace of God go I moments and again it
adds another layer of horror to this Nancy.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
You know one thing.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
I've really hated throughout this, Joscott Morgan, is the way
that some of the victims have been portrayed as like
party girls, tramps.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
Staying out too late drinking. That's not true. Yes, they
were out that night, they were heading into the Thanksgiving weekend.
They were not.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
Out any later than any other student would be on
a party night. None of these girls have arrest histories.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
No, nothing like that. They're all making.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
Good grades, They're beloved by their family. And you know what,
Joscott Morgan, as I always say, birds of a feather
flock together. When I look at Ashland Couch and I
hear her speak, that tells me not only who she is,
but who her friends are. I mean, just Scott, I
(13:32):
don't see you hanging out with the dope dealer down
at the corner. Why because you have nothing in common
in college in law school, people go, hey, did you go.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
To that party? Friday night. I'm like, no, I'm studying.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
I got two jobs and I've got to get through
law school and I got to pass the bar on
the first try.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
That's not what I was doing.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
I have my eye on a different prize. When I
look at Ashlyn Couch, the good girl, that tells me
who these victims were. And I've had it about up
to hear with people trashing them or their parents or
their mom or I think is so wrong, and that
is going to happen at this trial unless the judge
(14:14):
wakes up and pays attention.
Speaker 8 (14:16):
One of the things I found fascinating about her interaction
and particularly where she was domiciled in this location, and
you know you were mentioning earlier, could she testify this
is what I think personally, that she's going to testify
to kind of the standard rattle and hum of what
it was like living in that home. Remember, as you
had mentioned talking about party and all this sort of thing.
One of the things that came out early on in
(14:38):
this case was this thought that this was party central. Right,
no one knows the codes to the door. It's always open,
the sliders are open. People can come and go as
they please. Well, Ashlyn. I think kind of from a
historic standpoint, she will be able to talk about that
as she lived there, and this is not something that
perhaps just occurred out of the blue. If this was
(14:59):
a party location, it had been a party location for
a while, and I think that that's gonna be rather
probative in this case.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
Hey, and another thing about that, Joe Scott Morgan, I
will never forget. I moved into off campus housing with
some other co eds.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
This is an undergrad and I had my parents come visit.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
I got it all ready and cleaned at everything. Well,
wouldn't you know, this was on a Saturday night. They
were coming Sunday after church. I was waiting on them.
Little did I know that the guys below me I
lived on the top floor, the SAEs. I had no
idea who they were. I never knew them, had had
(15:40):
a huge kegger in the front yard and had somebody
had spray painted curse words all on the interior of
when my parents walked in. I'm not even gonna say
what they were, but they alluded to sex acts. And
my parents walked in and see this in red spray painted.
I had not even seen. I was, you know, mortified,
(16:01):
so I think you're right, this girl ashen Couch could
testify to you say, the home and the flow of
living there. But I was thinking about something else, Joe Scott.
I was thinking about, you know that sliding glass door
that Chris mcdonna and I kept looking at, wondering if
that was the point of entry. I wonder if she
could testify if it locked, if it was easily accessible,
(16:22):
and there's one on each level.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
Were there ever alarms in the home? So many things?
Speaker 2 (16:29):
Also during these parties, could somebody sneak in and out
that wasn't invited? You see where I'm headed. She is
really a Pandora's box of information about the murder scene.
Speaker 8 (16:40):
Yeah she is. And you know you talk about the
functionality this door's access and opportunity. Of course she's going
to be the only one to be able to tell
that tale, now, isn't she?
Speaker 2 (16:49):
Nancy?
Speaker 8 (16:49):
Because we can't go back to the physical structure.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
Well, you've got you've got the two roommates that survived.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
Remember we do.
Speaker 8 (16:57):
But I think that that perhaps in this particular case,
you know, when it gets down to it, can she
actually and again this goes back to history, if the
door was not functioning the lock did not work. How
far back in time does she go, as like this
place her place of residence. How long had it been
for instance, if it was, how long had it not
been functioning. I'd like to know the answer to that
(17:20):
question and the points of access. Could someone be heard
coming in through that door again acoustically? She's going to
be able to testify to that.
Speaker 9 (17:28):
A friend of an officer working the Brian Coburger murder
investigation says Coburger was very careful in the days before
his arrest. The source says the cop followed Coburger in Albrightsville, Pennsylvania,
and observed him wearing plastic gloves while picking up groceries
at a local Giant store. The cop also said that
(17:49):
Coberger's cell phone pings matched the movements of the victims
for weeks before the murders.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
Oh, just right, till the jury hears this, listen.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
You cannot under the law under the US Constitution as
it has been interpreted through case law cases that have
occurred after the Constitution. Of course, you cannot bring in
a suspect a defendant's bad reputation. You cannot bring in
evidence of bad acts unless they can be verified, and
(18:20):
they are similar to the case in chief, and we're
in a timely manner. But here when the police surveillance,
if this is confirmed, police surveillance are following Coburger and
they see him wearing plastic gloves into the grocery store,
(18:40):
apparently wearing plastic surgical type gloves for weeks after the murders.
Why And you're gonna hate this Mark tape, which makes
me super happy. Mark Tap renowned defense attorney.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
You know what I love to tell a jury if
you don't know a horse. Look at that is track
record number one.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
While these same cops were watching Coburger, they knew they
were going to arrest him. They were trying to get
DNA evidence. They already had some DNA evidence. Now they
needed the dad's DNA evidences. Driving along with Coburger, the
dad's just chatting away like nothing's wrong with the Coburger's.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
Like, what the why are the cops pulling us over? Okay,
stay with me.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
They're watching Coburger and they see Coburger outside putting the
family trash in the neighbors trash cans the dumpster, wearing gloves.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
Wait, not done yet, Not done yet.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
There were other times he's seen wearing gloves. Why why
is he wearing gloves all the time?
Speaker 1 (19:53):
Mark Tate?
Speaker 2 (19:54):
And how do you think that is going to affect
a jury?
Speaker 1 (19:59):
Oh, I know it was. It came.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
I gotta tell you more so when they arrest Coburger, Okay,
when they arrest him.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
When they go it to his parents' home in.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
The Poconos, they go in, it's like two, three, four
o'clock in the morning.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
Coburger is standing there in the kitchen. Why is he up?
Speaker 2 (20:17):
And everybody else is asleep in the middle of the
night and shorts.
Speaker 6 (20:21):
I don't know you this morning. Well, no one's checking
out what you're wearing.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
It you were.
Speaker 6 (20:30):
Gloves, gloves, all rights.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
And that's just off the top of my head. One
of the cops can tell me about more instances and
wearing gloves.
Speaker 6 (20:40):
And in one instance he was throwing trash away. Can
you think of a better reason to wear gloves?
Speaker 1 (20:46):
Now?
Speaker 6 (20:47):
In the other instance, so I.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
Can't get my DNA with rupel murder, that's a good reason.
Speaker 6 (20:53):
Yeah, I understand, No, I got you, But maybe throwing
trash away it's okay to wear gloves. I don't know.
That's not something I think i'd rest my I had on.
As a prosecutor, however, I every single line that you mentioned,
well that he might have a problem win in this case.
I mean, you know you're not prosecuting it. So every
single time that a prosecutor comes up with a new
(21:13):
piece of evidence that requires witnesses to get in, as
a defense lawyer, I find that to be wonderful because
that gives me a whole nother opportunity to ask questions
that may or may not help me argue that there
is a reason to have a doubt about the guilt
of this man. And every witness is vulnerable, and some
of these people are going to rely on are not
(21:34):
experienced in handling the cross examination that I intend to
bring them. And if I'm able to say at the
end of the case that the prosecutor relies on this
person who's unreliable, then why should you convict We saw
it happen, You and I saw it happen together when
a man who murdered a woman and the man who
was driving is Ferrari around town walked because a glove
(21:54):
didn't fit. And I'm just saying that there is no
foregone conclusion in any youury trial, and these defense lawyers
are going to put this prosecution team to the test.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
Clearly to Chris mcdunnad joining me veteran homicide detective and
your star. No, no, no, no, I'm going to somebody
that's let me just say a little less impeachable, Chris mcdonna,
have you ever heard which apparently they did not teach
us to mark Tate in moot court in law schools
SDSU sit down and shut up. Okay, that's just one
(22:30):
of those things you should learn. As hard for us
lawyers to do that because we think we can just
keep talking and then suddenly everybody's gonna agree with us.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
Uh uh. You tell twelve people.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
That this guy has got on surgical gloves in the
grocery store.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
You know why he did that?
Speaker 2 (22:50):
Right, if this could be confirmed, because he's heard about
all those cases we've been talking about. Wait till jo
Scott Morgan jumps in on DNA Where cops can get
your DNA off a beer can.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
A coffee cup, a pizza crust.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
This guy was wearing gloves when he was getting rid
of trash in the neighbors Dixie dumpster.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
When he was sorting through.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
Trash and putting it into plastic zip lock bags in
his kitchen, his parents' kitchen.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
And it just goes on and on and on.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
I can't wait for a jury of twelve regular people
like us to hear this guy about his surgical gloves
all around the time with the murders.
Speaker 5 (23:30):
Yeah, absolutely, Nancy. I mean, it just happens to be
a coincidence that, you know, he decides to throw his
trash out in his neighbor's ben and then of course,
you know he takes these four am drives, or at
least he's awake at four am. You know, every moment
you think about this guy. If you look at all
of his phone pings, you know, does the guy ever sleep?
(23:52):
You know where we're not seeing these gloves though, one
All of these these glove incidents show up post incident.
But you know where we're not seeing it. We're not
seeing it in the classroom before the incident. We're not
seeing it in any of the photos of traffic stops
where he stopped before the homicides. And guess what, we're
(24:12):
not seeing it in the courtroom today. So I don't
know what the deal is. You know that a jury
wouldn't you know, say, why is this guy wearing gloves
at four a m. And you know, good luck for
the defense on trying.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
To show on.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
Let me throw this to our DNA expert, Joseph Scott Morgan,
Professor Forensics.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
You know, all of this.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
Is just anecdote on my back and forth with Mark.
Take that anecdotal telling a story. Okay?
Speaker 1 (24:38):
Can we talk about hard evidence if it's true?
Speaker 2 (24:42):
To look at the horses track record, you know what
that would tell me that he wore surgical gloves at
some point that night, Okay, when he was in that
home murdering those four people. And you may ask Joe
Scott Morgan, then how would his DNA be on the
knife shift?
Speaker 1 (25:00):
I'll tell you why. How many times do.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
You think an anal compulsive like Brian Coberger had practiced
opening that knife and fiddling with that knife and playing
with that knife and admiring that knife.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
That's how the DNA got on there.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
I think I think you were surgical gloves that night,
and I would be very surprised if we find his
actual fingerprints anywhere in that home.
Speaker 8 (25:22):
It'd be tough to find, I think, and we probably
would have an indication of that. But yeah, I've held
throughout this, you know, when they found that sheath and
that contact DNA was there on that the snap, I
always had this idea of of of him actuating the button,
you know, sitting there with that snap, trying to flick
(25:44):
it back and forth to see how smoothly he could
do that. And some people have said, and I've had
people say this to me about this, well, why wasn't
his DNA found on other locations on the sheath? And
this is what I submit it. I think that he
may have wiped that sheath down at some point in time,
But the devil is always in the details. Nancy. That
(26:07):
little hidden underneath side of that snap, which I think
is where they probably recovered it, is not a place
that you would commonly consider to wipe it down if
you're looking to get rid of anything that was there,
that would be an identifier for you. It's an area
that he may have missed and he left it behind
(26:28):
in that one tiny area. I'm also interested in what
type of gloves he had at his home. Did they
find other gloves, So that's going to be a big
tell in this case. Nancy.
Speaker 10 (26:40):
Part of the hearing on the fourteenth is to talk
about the different parts of that video that we've received
and how we need the whole contacts. This is the
video that they say places this car near the residence.
We've received little tiny pieces of that. We think Brian's
right to a fair try. I mean, the public needs
(27:01):
to know that they've withheld the audio from a great
portion of that and that it starts a long time
before the little clip that we've received.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
Man, is she burying the lead.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
She's complaining about the audio not being attached to the video.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
Here's the bombshell.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
There you are hearing the defense attorney for Brian Koburger
and Taylor talking about the existence of video that places
Coburger's car, the white Elantra, near the crime scene.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
Yeah, that's the big deal.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
We believe that there's going to be two different video
clips shown to the jury, one near the home and
one near the gas station there at the corner. And
I'm going to let Chris mcdonnet describe the gas station
video what he believes it will portray, and the video
(28:02):
at the home we believe is going to portray. Guys
with me, an all star panel makes sense of what
we know, right now go ahay, Chris McDonald, everybody take
off your gloves. I promise not to collect your DNA. Well,
not during the show anyway, Go ahead.
Speaker 5 (28:16):
Yeah, So Nancy, right next to the murder scene, there's
a house right on the corner there, and outside in
the light socket for the front porch was an active
surveillance camera. I believe that the evidence will show that
that car comes up that street multiple times, and those
(28:39):
are the clips that they're holding back, as well as
the additional piece of evidence that they're going to show
is away from the scene. They're going to show that
that vehicle was either a coming into the crime scene
area and or be leaving. And I don't know if
they're going to be able to correlate that in relationship
to some of the phone things, because remember he turned
(29:01):
his phone off, so you know, that end of itself
is going to be interesting. Now, What's one other thing
I just want to make a point on here is
you know, the defense is saying they need to see
this video, yet they held the alibi for over a year,
so my sense is they're still working on that particular
(29:22):
forensic side of the evidence that's going.
Speaker 6 (29:24):
To be presented.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
Crime stories with Nancy Grace too Jessine Scott Morgan, forensic.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
Expert and professor at Jacksonville State University. I was listening
to every word she says, and she's saying that they've
gotten tiny pieces of the car near the residence.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
You know what that tells me?
Speaker 2 (29:53):
Also tiny pieces of the car, and she wants it
in context. That tells me there may be be more
than one surveillance video around the King Road.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
Murder scene that's catching the car.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
Do you remember the Photus Dulo's prosecution where missing Connecticut
mama find Jennifer Dulos went missing and there was a
copious amount of.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
Blood, her blood found in the garage. You couldn't survive
the loss of that much blood, so we know she's dead.
And then the police.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
There in Connecticut put together it was pretty incredible. Let
me just say, yes, Yes, a whole scene, a whole
timeline via different video of what Photus Dulos, the husband
now did, was doing.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
You see him leaving, You see it.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
Pick up with a red light cam seeing him cutting through.
You see him from a business cam surveillance video going
back and all the time he's going straight to the
car wash to get the car detail, but yet still
and even replacing the back seat which still had Jennifer's
hair on it and blood. As I recall, even when
(31:08):
a public bus door opened, you see his cargo by
because a lot of the buses have cams in them,
and they put together a collage to show his movements.
That's what I'm hearing right here is Ann Taylor is
complaining about little tiny pieces of the video placing the
(31:28):
car near the residents, according to police, and.
Speaker 1 (31:31):
She doesn't like that, and she thinks that's not fair.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
But what it is is different video cameras picking him
up along the way.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
Did you decipher that? Am I feeding you? Spoon feeding you?
Speaker 11 (31:44):
No?
Speaker 8 (31:44):
Here's the thing, you know, these ring cams and these
CCTV obviously they're more prevalent today than at any other
point in time in history, and so we don't necessarily
know about where all of these clips are coming from.
We do know that the area that he was in,
allegedly this car moving back and forth, is going to
(32:05):
be the most densely populated area in this geographic location.
You know, you get out in these areas that are
far flong. Remember the loop that they talk about that
where they collected. They were trying to collect images off
of these gas station cams and wherever else the car
may have passed, this is going to be the target
rich area though around that residence at that point in time,
(32:26):
because you never know, you know, and you think about
just for instance, you think about one of these cars
like a Tesla for instance, that has an indwelling cam
that can pick things up. Did they shake the bushes
enough to collect enough of this data out there to
piece the sin completely together? Apparently she thinks they may have.
Speaker 5 (32:43):
Nancy at least say that this ALII is you now
driving around.
Speaker 7 (32:52):
That I work.
Speaker 5 (32:57):
And that is alilar.
Speaker 12 (32:59):
So what the defend has still failed to is to
comply by the nineteen five nineteen and I are portable
point one. The specific number requires a defendant to provide
identify on natings of witnesses who will be called the
support the alibi the law of their accesses.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
Okay, the alibi was ripped apart by the prosecutor in
the last hearing, and there's.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
A very good reason for that.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
Just as the state has to hand over all of
their witnesses and how to contact their witnesses for the
defense to have the opportunity to interview them prior to trial.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
The defense has to do that too. So why is
it that the.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
Only corroboration mark tape that Coburger is bringing on is
a set of cell phone pings?
Speaker 6 (33:50):
But there's nothing wrong with that. The prosecution has indicated
they're going to rely on cell phone pings. And the
rule the law about alibi and who is anytime after
arraignment you're allowed to tell the defendants, tell the prosecutors
rather that you're going to rely on alibi, and you
have to disclose your witnesses. However, here the witnesses are
(34:11):
cell phone pings, just like the prosecutions relying on cell
phone pings. So is the defendant rely allowed to rely
as well. Now, of course that's going to be put
in front of a jury, just like issues about whether
he wore gloves and how strange that is. All of
that will be admitted by witnesses, all of whom are
subject to a sifting cross examination. And so now the
(34:33):
prosecution knows there's going to be an alibi defense, and
when there is, it has to be supported by admissible evidence.
And so with each week.
Speaker 1 (34:43):
Evidence to me, I got it.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
Hey, that's what the defense layer has to do.
Speaker 1 (34:50):
That's what they update.
Speaker 6 (34:51):
A little bit of prosecution feet to the fire.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
Can you put up that graphic?
Speaker 2 (34:59):
I've got a pair here for you, but maybe you
could borry Koburger's.
Speaker 1 (35:02):
Oh wait, no, they're in evidence.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
You know, as we were talking earlier, uh, joining me,
Chris McDonough, you were talking about the pings and you
didn't get to say it on air, but Tate is
all about, Oh, the pings are going to help exonerate him.
Wait a minute, Okay, he's at home to forty two
he said, hum back at home at five point twenty seven.
(35:24):
He's at home at not nine thirty two am, but
wait a minute. Four point fifty phone ping, four forty eight,
phone turned back on. Wait, two forty seven am, right
before the murders.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
In the middle of the night while.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
He's out stargazing, he decides to turn his phone off
from two forty seven to four forty eight. Wow, Chris mcdona,
is that exactly when the time that murders occurred?
Speaker 6 (35:51):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (35:52):
Absolutely, Nancy. And what's interesting a little and you going
to do it out?
Speaker 13 (35:57):
You know. The one thing we learned about this shalliby
as well is all four of the victims are sound asleep,
and you know the twelve other times that he was
seen around that neighborhood, they were also asleep.
Speaker 5 (36:10):
But in this particular case, you have the phone things
that get up to the point where they turn off
and then all of a sudden, the video picks it
back up in the neighborhood. I eve the car. So
you know, to try to sell that, you know, from
the defense. Whenever you hear a defense attorney say, you know,
the public has a right to know, and there's a
(36:31):
gag er, that's usually a clue that there's something coming.
Speaker 6 (36:35):
Yeah, I don't think the public has a right to know.
I think that the defendant has a right to know.
There's nothing about this. This is the public has a
right to know. That's the defendant's right to know to
defend himself. So I don't really care about the public
indefendent this guy. I'm just saying that, you know, if
the prosecution can use pings, the defendant can use pings.
Speaker 11 (36:55):
Coburger has spent over five hundred days in jail awaiting trial.
Every day in the jail cost one hundred and ninety
four dollars, totaling nearly one hundred thousand dollars so far.
Coburger's defense team bills over five hundred dollars an hour.
The hours police spent costs nearly a million dollars. The
University of Idaho left with a massive bill, spending one
(37:18):
point four million dollars on increased security and another two
hundred thousand on counseling individual It's estimated taxpayers spent roughly
three point six million as a result of the murders day.
Speaker 1 (37:32):
Matt, what did I just.
Speaker 4 (37:33):
Hear well for Brian Coberger's defense team to pretty much
spend at will. I never heard of anything like this
in my life, Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
Okay, a total of three point six million dollars the
taxpayers are paid for Coburger.
Speaker 4 (37:49):
When they say we paid that the taxpayer money, I
wish they would actually send me a question here about
what I'm willing to pay for, you know, ahead of time,
because this is ridiculous.
Speaker 2 (37:58):
Three point six million billion dollars on Coburger and all
of his defense attorneys and experts. We're now learning about
Coburger bringing on another expert to try and shore up
his alibi che ching.
Speaker 4 (38:15):
Listen the document filed serves the Coburger's official alibi and
claims quote mister Coburger was out driving in the early
morning hours of November thirteen, twenty twenty two, as he
often did to hike and run and or see the
moon and stars. He drove throughout the area south of Pullman, Washington,
west of Moscow, Idaho, including well why we Park. To
further solidify his alibi, Coberger said he plans to offer
(38:38):
testimony from a CSLI expert to show that he was
south of Pullman and west of Moscow at the time
of the murders, and that he did not travel east
on the Moscow Pullman Highway in the early morning hours
of November thirteen, twenty twenty two.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
Okay, Chris McDonald, what is a CSLI expert?
Speaker 5 (38:57):
That expert, Nancy will be an individual that will be
able to tell investigators in or a jury what the
signature is of that phone, i e. The information coming
out of that phone to the nearby cell telligence you know.
Speaker 1 (39:10):
To you, Karen Stark, I know.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
I hope the state doesn't get bogged down in a
lot of scientific evidence. That's what happened in the Tottenham
Casey Anthony trial. Where she killed her daughter Kelly and
was acquitted. But that evidence was true, but it did
get bogged down. You know what once the jury hears
(39:34):
that after the murders, this guy went everywhere wearing plastic gloves.
You know, I don't need an expert to tell me
that's evidence of guilt.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
And I don't mean just that, Karen Stark, not just that.
Speaker 2 (39:47):
Of course, the DNA on the knife, the fact that
he ordered the exact same knife and she from Amazon.
But what it's missing, nobody can find it. The cell phone,
the video stream cobble together where we see his movements
that night. There's so much evidence, Karen, much less this.
Speaker 7 (40:08):
You're talking about a guy who needs complete control and dominance. Nancy.
I know this is going to come out. And how
telling is it that the phone is on and right
before the murders he turns it off, And that to
me is completely compelling. And this guy, he has a
history of steering at women to the point where they
(40:30):
throw him out of restaurants. But he's been complained about,
he's been said that he's odd. He takes control in
a classroom, he has his studies how to do murders.
Speaker 1 (40:42):
Well, you know, Karen Stark.
Speaker 2 (40:44):
It hasn't come out yet, and I don't think that
it will be part of the evidence because it will
be very inflammatory. But when I was in Moscow and
around Pullman speaking to people there, several female steertudents came
up to talk about how angry he would act at them,
great them.
Speaker 1 (41:05):
Much more severely than he did men.
Speaker 2 (41:08):
I mean, it was very compelling evidence that this guy
hates women. I mean, I had to be a strength
to figure out why. But I bet the jury will
never hear all that. Everything changing every day in the
lead up to this trial. Let's stop and remember American
hero Captain Jack Casey.
Speaker 1 (41:30):
Just twenty six.
Speaker 2 (41:32):
Casey passed away with four other Marines and a helicopter
crash this February. A US Marine, he earned the National
Defense Service Medal. He has survived by grieving wife Emma,
his mother Catherine, and his father James. American hero Captain
Jack Casey. Everyone, I want to thank you for being
(41:55):
with us tonight. Thank you to our guests as well.
Nancy Gray signing off, good night friend,
Host
Nancy Grace
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