An arrest was made in the arson fire that burned down the Palisades earlier this year, killing 12 people, destroying more than 6,800 structures, both homes and businesses, and damaging over 1,000 more buildings.
After dropping off an Uber passenger in Pacific Palisades, 29-year-old Jonathan Rinderknech parked his car and tried but failed to contact a former friend. He gets out of the car, walks up a nearby trail, takes iPhone videos, and listens to a rap song. Its music video includes objects being lit on fire.
Then, twelve minutes into the new year, a fire is started. With weak cell service, Rinderknecht walks back down the trail, continually calling 911 until he finally connects, only to find out other residents already reported the fire.
As Rinderknecht drives away, he passes firefighters and turns back to watch them on the scene. He records while firefighters quickly extinguish the blaze, or so they thought.
The dense underbrush makes it difficult to see, and the roots underground continue to smolder. A week after the 911 calls reporting the Lachman fire, the Santa Ana Winds create an explosion of deadly fire, spreading the remains of the Lachman fire across LA, freshly named the Palisades fire.
Investigators question Rinderknecht as he repeatedly called 911 about the January 1st fire.
During those calls, Rinderknecht asked ChatGPT, "Are you at fault if a fire is lit because of your cigarettes?"
Rinderknecht gives conflicting statements about whether he smoked near the trail that night and where he was when he called. Rinderknecht claims he was at the bottom of the trail, but location data shows while speaking with 911, he’s just 30 feet from the fire’s origin.
Ultimately, Rinderknecht is charged.
Joining Nancy Grace today:
- Stephanie Lydecker - Executive Producer & Host of True Crime Tonight; Founder & CEO of KT-Studios.com
- Alexandra Pfeifer - Victim
- Dr. Bethany Marshall - Psychoanalyst, Author: "Deal Breaker," and featured in hit show "Paris in Love" on Peacock; Instagram & TikTok: drbethanymarshall, X: @DrBethanyLive
- Dina Doll - Attorney, Trial Consultant, Mediator & Legal Analyst, Doll Amir Eley, LLP
- Moses Castillo - Private Investigator for the Dordulian Law Group, Former Supervisor Detective from The Los Angeles Police Department
- Nicholle Brock - Firefighter, EMT, and Arson Expert
- Dr. Kendall Crowns - Chief Medical Examiner Tarrant County (Ft Worth), Lecturer: Burnett School of Medicine at TCU (Texas Christian University)
- Shannon Butler - Investigative Reporter at WFTV Channel 9, Florida
- Sydney Sumner - Investigative Reporter, 'Crime Stories'
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, breaking.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
News tonight burn Notice a dozen dead that we know of,
thousands left homeless, and now we learn the suspect filmed
firefighters after setting the one and only deadly Palisades blaze
that just ate up property, homes, churches, synagogues and people.
(00:36):
I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to
thank you for being with us.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
People said there's a fire in your area, and that's
when I ran upstairs to see if I could see
anything in softlings everywhere and realized that we didn't really
have a second long group.
Speaker 4 (00:52):
And this is the most devastating nightmare any of us
have covered.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
Nothing left and people.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
You start a fire and a death occurs, that's a felony.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
And I Am not going to be happy until.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
These these perps are apprehended in charge to the max.
Is that finally happening tonight A bombshell in the Palisades
fire case.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
I want you to hear the US attorney.
Speaker 5 (01:18):
As the world watched in horror as the Palisades fire burned.
Victims perished in the smoke and flames, homes where cherished
family memories and belongings were turned to rubble in ash.
The iconic Pacific Coast Highway along Malibu looked like a
war zone. Thousands of people are forced to evacuate, tho
(01:40):
homes and businesses cannot be rebuilt.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
It's one thing to hear the US attorney speaking about
what happened. It's another thing entirely to hear from an
actual victim. Straight out to Stephanie Leidecker Stephanie formerly of
LA She is the executive producer, host of True Crime Tonight,
(02:05):
founder CEO of k T Studios. Stephanie, with your background,
this must have felt like a movie production, except it
was real. And you have your son. You're a single mom,
You've got a son. You have to say what happened, Stephanie.
Speaker 4 (02:24):
You know, I was just working from home. I lived
right off of Sunset at the time, and I started
noticing cars basically backing up in front of my house,
and that's very unusual because it's a dead end. And
I was on a work zoom and I went outside,
and sure enough, you could see the blaze coming. And
if anyone knows that area sort of by Temescal Canyon
(02:45):
in Sunset, it is gridlock on a good day. So
suddenly everyone's trying to evacuate, and you know, people were
abandoning cars in front of me and running on foot,
which I understood because it felt as though there was
a chance we wouldn't get out. Yes, and my son,
you know, thankfully, we're all good. He was evacuated from
(03:09):
his school and we were the lucky ones. You know,
the structure that I was living in remained, by the
grace of God. But I can promise you so many
of the people and neighbors and loved ones, you know,
people who have lived in their home for forty five
plus years, this is it. They are wiped to the
ground and there's no real way to start over. And
(03:30):
to say it was an apocalypse, it's an understatement. So
my heart goes out to everyone who is still sort
of going through the ashes and picking up the pieces,
because it really hasn't stopped yet. You know, people are
still living with those who they evacuated to.
Speaker 6 (03:46):
Can you imagine. So yeah, hopefully there's some justice to
be had.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Stephanie Laidecker, you stated that you noticed cars were beginning
to back up bumper to bumper right outside your home,
and that's odd in a residential area to suddenly say,
a parking lot out outside your front door completely and
then you look out and see flames.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
Where were the flimes?
Speaker 4 (04:14):
I was slightly kind of really near ground zero. There
were just up ahead on the top of the hill.
I was, you know, fairly new to the area too,
so I was so ill prepared for this. I went out,
saw the flames and realized everybody who was backing up
on my street was literally trying to evacuate. There's only
one way out. And remember, as people abandon their cars,
(04:36):
fire trucks can't get in, and then residents can't get out.
So you know, it took you know, over six hours
to get you know, a mile and a half because
as the time progressed, it went from clear sky to
smoke to straight fog. You know, your phone isn't working
because you don't have satellite reception.
Speaker 6 (04:56):
You know it's harrowing kids and pets, and you just
grabbed your phone and went out.
Speaker 4 (05:01):
In my case, I didn't assume I would be back
in maybe fifteen minutes, and that this was just a
little something, And boy was I wrong. The devastation is
really unmatched. And listen for firefighters, in law enforcement and
the people who really put their lives on the line
to keep all of us safe.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
I'm so grateful, you know, Stephanie, you stated that your son,
your beautiful boy, was evacuated from his school. Yeah, I see.
That would throw me over the edge, not knowing did
the twins get evacuated? Where are they? When can I
get to them? How can I get to them? That's
one of my greatest fears, being separated from them at
(05:43):
a time of emergency, and I can't get to them.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
What was going through your mind?
Speaker 2 (05:47):
You can see the fire, yeah, and you don't have
your son.
Speaker 4 (05:52):
And you can't really communicate, right, So I'm so grateful
that the middle school he was attending, they really went
above and beyond and we're able to evacuate the entire
school to a further location. But again, you don't know
where that location is because you're struggling with communication. And
I will say this, you know, people say this. I
(06:12):
can attest to it now, you know. That is all
that mattered was getting to him. Nothing else did. And
I put my money where my mouth is on that one.
You know, stuff is stuff, but safety. People lost their lives.
Twelve people were killed in this fire, you know, and
the devastation isn't over yet, So yes, guess getting to
(06:32):
my son, seeing him and wrapping my arms around him.
I felt in my heart we were divinely guided and
continue to be so to some extent.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
You know too. Psycho analyst joining us out all the
California juristiction doctor Bethany Marshall.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
She's the author of deal Breaker. She's currently on.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Peacock and you can find her at doctor Bethany Marshall
dot com.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
Who are these people?
Speaker 2 (06:59):
You hear? Alice is still trying to get everyone out
of her house, trying to save them.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
There's six people that she's got to evacuate, two.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Children, two elderly parents for sale, her husband, all the pets,
all of this, all of that, and she looks up
and she sees guys pulling up to start looting houses.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
She's not even out of the house yet. You know,
who are those people? And Nancy?
Speaker 7 (07:22):
This happened so quickly it was like a giant was
standing over the Pacific Palisades with a blow torch. This
was not a fire, This was the whole area being torched.
And that these looters had the time to get there
tells me that, you know, after every like a riot,
a demonstration, a fire. Criminals move in very quickly afterwards,
(07:44):
and I think it's a group of people who are
actually wanting to loot and they're just waiting for the
right opportunity. And Nancy one more thing to place us
into context. It wasn't just the Palisades, it was Altade Nex.
Speaker 8 (07:55):
I have an.
Speaker 7 (07:56):
Office nearby, and I have colleagues and friends who are
sitting with their patients and they saw the fire coming
over the hill. I have patients who want to move
back home. They could rebuild the fires that the houses
they've lost, but there's no infrastructure. There's no churches, there's
no synagogues, no running water, no neighbors, no community.
Speaker 6 (08:19):
So it's not just.
Speaker 7 (08:21):
The destruction of each individual home, it's the destruction of everything.
Speaker 6 (08:27):
And I have one patient who had a.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
Million dollar home. The insurance the.
Speaker 7 (08:31):
Insurance company offered her two hundred thousand dollars to rebuild
the home and she can't do it with that.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
In addition to all the property damage you're hearing about,
at least twelve people die and now.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
Who did it? Just I hope you're sitting down listen.
Speaker 5 (08:55):
Today we are announcing the arrest of twenty nine year
old Jonathan Winderneck for igniting a fire that ultimately burned
down the Policies earlier this year, killing twelve people, destroying
more than sixteen hundred structures, both homes and businesses, and
damaging over one thousand more buildings.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
Who is this guy?
Speaker 2 (09:17):
And why why burn a notice? How can we prove
and our sin first? Is very difficult to do. You
have to prove first of all.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
That a crime occurred, that this was not some sort
of an.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
Accident, but then intent, that a crime was intended. Who
in the world would cause such an incident, claiming the
lives of at least twelve and ruining literally thousands of acres,
ripping people from their homes, and they can never go back.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
Who is this guy?
Speaker 9 (09:51):
Growing up in France, Renderneck is now living in Pacific
Palisades working as a uber driver. In the fall, Renderneck
feeds Chad Gpt a detailed blending imagery of a dystopian
painting divided into parts that blend together seamlessly, fire, fear,
rich people and the poor. A month later, he tells
a family member he burned his Bible and describes it
(10:13):
to chat Gpt as liberating as the year comes to
an end. His last Passengers of twenty twenty four described
the twenty nine year old as agitated and angry.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
I don't understand what I'm hearing. He tells a family member.
He burned his Bible and he said it was liberating,
and he is relentlessly searching chat gpt. He blends an
imagery of a dystopian painting divided into parts fire, fear,
(10:48):
rich people and poor, and the fire.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
Is looming down on all of them. That's his work.
He created that, Sidney Sumner. That's absolutely cool.
Speaker 10 (11:00):
Investigators found that Renderneck created a concerning chat GPT prompt,
so he asked chat gpt, this AI service, to create
an image of a city essentially burning down. So it
created twelve different shots, and you see the fire pearing
(11:21):
through this city and people running out of the city
into the woods for cover. It's very, very disturbing.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
It is disturbing, and I would say probative that it
proves something. But to Dina Dahl joining us out of
this jurisdiction, try a lawyer, attorney, a consultant, Dina. If
they want to make these charges stick, they're going to
need more than a dystopian painting depicting a fire looming
(11:52):
down on all parts of some dystopian city.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
They're going to need more than that, absolutely.
Speaker 11 (11:57):
I mean the fact that he wants this image, and
also the fact that he listened to a song, which
I'm sure you'll talk about as well. You know, people's
aren't aren't great, you know, motivation in court, you know,
presenting a picture and a song somebody listened to, as
you said, Arson, is going to be very difficult to prove.
(12:18):
And this, you know, is how somebody enjoys their music
or what images they like to see. That's going to
be hard to connect the dots to a jury.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
Crime stories with Nancy Grace, this is what the US
attorney says happened.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Let's hear it from the horses mouth.
Speaker 5 (12:44):
After dropping off a passenger in Pacific Poli seats, Rinderneck
parked his car and tried and failed to contact a
former friend. He exited the car, walked up a nearby trail,
took iPhone videos at a nearby hilltime up and listened
to a rap song whose music video including objects being
(13:05):
lit on fire. The defendant had listened to this song
and watched its music video repeatedly in the days leading
up to the Lochman fire. Twelve minutes into the new year,
environmental sensing platforms indicated that a fire had started.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
Isn't it true?
Speaker 2 (13:21):
Sydney Summer Crime Stories investigative reporter that he listened to
this song over and over and over and it's.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
All about burning, burning things down.
Speaker 10 (13:33):
Yes, Rendernick listened to this song repeatedly in the days
leading up to the Lachman fire, a song that.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
He was playing on Loop.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
Let's listen to it. But he played that over and
over and over on Loop.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
That from at Josman.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
So the say is going to need more than what
he was listening to in his ear pod. And they're
gonna need more than some wacky dystopian painting.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
They're gonna need hard evidence to prove it. Arson case.
Guys joining me right now.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Shannon Butler, investigative reporter, WFTV Channel nine, Florida. She just
walked out a federal court a few hours ago for
she observed the suspect at his first court appear at
Shannon Butler, what happened?
Speaker 12 (14:33):
We just got out of this federal courthouse here in
downtown Orlando. This was a detention hearing, and what the
judge decided is that he is too much of a
flight risk to be allowed bond, so he will remain
behind bars here in Orlando until he has transferred them
back to LA There is another hearing now on October seventeenth. Well,
(14:55):
they will present some more of that evidence, not preliminary hearing,
but today the judge was concerned about his mental state
and his living arrangements.
Speaker 8 (15:05):
He had been living in.
Speaker 12 (15:06):
Florida for about the last five months, living with his
sister and brother in law, but in the last month,
two nine one one calls were made from that home.
Speaker 8 (15:17):
The first call came about.
Speaker 12 (15:19):
September seventeenth, where the family members told them there was
a disturbance inside the home where he threatened to burn
their house down. Now, just a week later, another nine
to one one call from that home where his father
said that he had a gun and was threatening to
shoot his brother in law if his brother in law
(15:41):
started to come towards him.
Speaker 8 (15:43):
And he needed to do that in self defense.
Speaker 12 (15:46):
So the family really put painting a picture for us
here of a defining mental state.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
Okay, Shannon Butler, don't know Shannon Butler joining us ives
he had reported WFTV Channel nine, Florida. You said, the
judge stayed the suspect is a flight risk, which leads
to me to my first question, what's he doing in Florida.
If he can make it all the way from California
to Florida, he clearly is a flight risk. What did
(16:13):
he drive his ubercar there?
Speaker 12 (16:14):
Well, he did drive his car from California to Florida.
But the judge said, he also has ties to France.
It's where another brother and his father lived. He lived
there for some time. He even speaks French. They were
concerned about that. They were also concerned because he made
some comments that he may go try to live in Bali.
Speaker 8 (16:34):
So all of those things.
Speaker 12 (16:35):
Oh another thing, Nancy, he told investigators that he could
not find his passport.
Speaker 8 (16:41):
It was lost.
Speaker 12 (16:42):
That of course, raising quite a concern for the judge.
When you don't know where your passport is. They said, well,
what is lost could be found.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
Shannon, Ball are joining us outside the courthouse. You're absolutely correct, Shannon.
He grew up in France, he lived there many many years.
Then he goes to Pacific palis As. I don't know
what occurred in between that France and Pacific Palace. Now
he's in Melbourne, Florida, and he's been working as an
uber driver. As a matter of fact, according to the
federal government, just before he started the fire that turned
(17:11):
into the Palisades fire, he had just dropped.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
Off his first Uber passenger of the year.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
He lives on chat GPT, which is going to be
a treasure trove for prosecutors. But let me understand, he's
not getting bond.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Is that right?
Speaker 8 (17:33):
That is correct.
Speaker 12 (17:34):
You will be made here in Orlando and tell another
hearing where he has for evidence here on October seventeenth.
After that, it remains to be seen when he will
then head back to California to face these charges. Remember, Nancy,
these are just the beginning of what could be more
and more charges. Right now, facing a mandatory minimum of
five years up to.
Speaker 8 (17:56):
Twenty or so.
Speaker 12 (17:57):
But now they're looking at the possibility of twenty to
the death penalty because I remember a dozen deaths there
in California.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
Yeah, you know what, a dozen.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
If that doesn't qualify for the death penalty, I don't
know what will. And I'm gonna get into it with
Dina Dole in just a moment regarding felony murder. But
Shannon Butler, what was your observation of him in court?
Speaker 12 (18:18):
So he walked in in a red jumpsuit, he was
a little bit disheveled.
Speaker 8 (18:22):
He has long hair, he was disheveled.
Speaker 12 (18:26):
He did engage with his public defender quite a bit,
sometimes smiling, shaking his head a lot at.
Speaker 8 (18:33):
What the prosecutors were saying.
Speaker 12 (18:35):
The prosecutors had some conversations with the courtroom about him
breaking up with a girl just before he allegedly started
this fire, that he broke up with her and he
was in kind of a bad state, didn't have any friends,
didn't have a network, and that's kind of when things
started to go downhill.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
Shannon, stop, stop right there. You think I care.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
He broke up with his girlfriend, who on this panel
has never.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
Been dumped at least once.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
We've all been dumped by somebody, and we've all dumped somebody.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
So what wait, he is in a bad place. What
are you saying to me? He was in a bad place.
He had a car, he had.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
EarPods, he had a full stomach, a place to stay,
gasoline in his car.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
You know people around the world. That means he's in
the top one percent of people in the world. So
what do you mean, He's.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
In a bad place, so bad he had to kill
twelve people and destroyed the line. Did you hear Stephanie Lydecker,
her whole place gone, her.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
Son evacuated, She didn't even know where he was.
Speaker 12 (19:45):
Yeah, that's what the prosecutor has basically said that what
has happened to him was not didn't really give a
good excuse for what happened here. They said when they
approached him and started to interview him back in January,
that he told a lot of lies to those investigators.
(20:06):
They wouldn't he wouldn't answer questions like what kind of
cigarettes do you smoke? And today in court they found
out not only did they know he had one gun
that he was keeping Nancy in a bear with a
zipper on it, a child's toy, that's where he was
keeping this gun. But today the special agent got on
the stand and said, just today they got some evidence
(20:27):
back that he had a second gun in his possession
that they knew nothing about. They said he wasn't very
honest in those original interviews, and that was another reason
they thought he should stay here behind bars.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
Straight back out to Shannon Butler, WFTV.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Channel nine, who has been in the courtroom observing the defendant.
This is a huge break in the case.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
It's very hard to determine, first weather case is ares
because the evidence.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
Is all burned up.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
And then if it is arson intentional, who did it.
Last thing you want is a firebug, a pyromaniac with
two guns wandering around who's threatening people. So the judge
did the right thing keeping him behind bars.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
But you stated that he was You said shaking his head.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
I assume that means shaking his head, no, not nodding
his head. Yes, correct, correct? Did he say anything in court?
Speaker 8 (21:22):
No, he didn't.
Speaker 12 (21:23):
The only thing that he said was the judge asked
him again how to pronounce his name, and he gave
him the pronunciation of his name. But that's all he
said in this about an hour and a half hearing this.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
Morning, Shannon Butler, you said that he was disagreeing with
what the prosecutors were saying.
Speaker 12 (21:41):
Yeah, he shook his head when they started talking about
his ex girlfriend. That on New Year's Eve, right before
this fire started, he had text his ex.
Speaker 8 (21:52):
She did not answer.
Speaker 12 (21:53):
He had text somebody else that said no, I don't
want to hang out I need some space. And then
a third person he texted to hang out with on
New Year's Eve said they didn't remember him. So he
was shaking his head during that and a couple of
other times when they were talking about those incidents inside
the home where he was living.
Speaker 8 (22:12):
Nancy let me point out too that.
Speaker 12 (22:14):
The brother in law and the sister were so afraid
inside their home. They wanted to get him out, and
police said, you know, you probably should leave. Here's how
you evict somebody, but they were so scared. In the meantime,
they moved out of their own home, and he was
living in that house by himself because the brother in
law and the sister did not want to live with
(22:35):
him anymore with their kids. They thought he was just
not in the right state of mind given the last
couple of things that had happened.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
Wow, his sister and her husband and children move out
of their own home rather than live with him there.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
Out of fear.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
Okay, I see a case beginning the building.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
Of a case. It's not just some dystopian painting. He
created a chat GPT.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
It's not just listening to lyrics where you see a
guy burning up money, starting a fire in a trash can,
and you watch it over and over and over, and
the guy singing is just totally miserable. But we're getting
more evidence. We're getting more evidence. I want you to
hear what the US attorney has to say.
Speaker 5 (23:23):
It took the defendant several tries to try tack nine
to one one to report the fire. He fled the
scene in his car, but turned around after passing fire engines,
driving in the opposite direction to fight the fire. To
fight the fire. While the Lackman fire burned, the defendant
walked up the same trail from earlier that night to
(23:43):
watch the fire and firefighters, using his iPhone to take
short videos of the scene.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
To Dina Dahl joining as veteran trial lawyer, out of
this jurisdiction, you've got the alleged purp calling nine to
one one over and and over from the scene where
the fire started.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
That speaks to me, that means something.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
In fact, one of the biggest arson cases I ever
investigated and prosecuted.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
The purp himself called nine one one. He's a millionaire.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
When the fire trucks arrived, he was lying all romanesque
on the lawn across the street.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
From his home, which was in flames.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
After about four or five minutes, he has, oh, yeah,
my wife's in there. Yeah, he called nine one one,
just like this guy's calling a nine one one.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
What about it, Dina Dahl?
Speaker 11 (24:35):
I think what you said there alleged. We got to
remember here, you know, he's innocent until proven guilty, and
that's not nothing right. This applies regardless of how bad
we think the crime is. And just because he called that,
I mean to your point where you said earlier, Arson
has to be intentional, it has to be malicious. The
fact that he called so many times. His defense attorney,
(24:59):
I am sure will argue that if they can, if
they're even going to conceive that he lit the fire,
it was accidental, and that is the evidence of him
trying to call so many times. Was him trying to
get the fire stopped. Not showing guilt but actually showing
his innocence.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
Oh okay, Stephanie Leidecker joining us. She and her boy
were evacuated after the fire threatened their lives.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
Did you know in between calling nine one one, he
was video he was leaving, he was leaving the scene.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
Then he sees fire trucks coming, went ooh, I want
a video that he.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
Turns around, follows the fire trucks and comes back and
videos them risking their lives to fight the fire.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
So I don't know if I can add a felon
account of PERV. But you're leaving the scene of a
fire you allegedly started. But you see, oh, here come
guys and women about to risk their lives.
Speaker 1 (26:06):
One may die.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
I better get that on video, and goes back while
all this is happening. People have been evacuated, they're dying,
and he's videoing it.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
That don't bother you because it bothers me.
Speaker 4 (26:21):
Yeah, it bothers me a lot. Imagine what kind of
a sicko would actually set a fire intentionally, if in
fact this is what he did allegedly allegedly allegedly then
to offer to help firefighters to help right the blaze
that he potentially started for himself. Is this an idea
that he'll be a hero. Will he be the guy
that is now sunnily relevant because he's destroyed so many lives.
(26:44):
I personally would like him to come talk to you
about it. I'll hide behind you with backup. But if
this is true, it is so devastating that one person
could do this to so many.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
You know, Stephanie, you just brought up the idea. Did
he want to pretend he was the hero? Analyze his acts?
So he goes to the scene before the fire starts.
He's there before the fire starts. The fire starts, he
tries to call nine one one, then he leaves. He
(27:16):
then sees firetrucks coming and decides, I'm not leaving. I'm
gonna go video them while they fight the blaze. And
he stays there and takes video as his rap song
plays over and over and he can see in the
video a guy starting fires. And we've heard from Shannon Butler.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
About how distraught he was he had no one to
hang out with on New Year's Eve.
Speaker 4 (27:42):
Really, whoa I mean, tell that to everybody who's lost
absolutely everything and also the loss of life. It's unimaginable.
And this guy got dumped by his girlfriend and suddenly
that's enough. He was feeling lost in the sauce about
what life was meant for him. He had a job.
To your point, he had EarPods. If in fact this
is true, and amily goes to show that we are
(28:05):
that disconnected that on New Year's Day, the start of.
Speaker 6 (28:08):
A fresh year. This person decides.
Speaker 4 (28:11):
That he's going to take matters into his own hands
and have some dystopian photo of Look at these videos
right now. The destruction is unimaginable. It's a town that's
been completely wiped off the mat It's literally just chimneys
and abandoned cars, and you know, the ripple effect is real.
Everyone is still traumatized by the event. I can't tell
(28:32):
you how many neighbors and friends I speak to that
are just lost because there's nowhere to go. There's no
money to start over. So if you're lucky enough and listen,
I'm one of them that was like, I'm out, there's
a new life someplace else, because I'm too scared to
look over my shoulder at this point. But imagine those
who have lost absolutely everything. Their life is an ash
(28:54):
and they have to now stay and figure out how
to push on in this town that is now still
very far away from being inhabitable.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
Crime stores with Nancy Gray.
Speaker 9 (29:14):
During calls, Renderneck asked chat GPT, are you at fault
if a fire is lit because of your cigarettes? Renderneck
gives conflicting statements about whether he smoked near the trail
that night, and where he was when he called Renderneck
claims he was at the bottom of the trail, but
location data shows while speaking with nine one one he's
(29:34):
just thirty feet from the fire's origin.
Speaker 5 (29:37):
He lied about where he was when he first saw
the Lockman fire, claiming he was near the bottom of
a hiking trail. Geolocation data for the nine to one
one calls showed that he was standing above the fire
and in clearing, merely thirty feet from the blaze as
it rapidly grew.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
Asking jat GPT, is it my fault if I started
a fire with a cigarette?
Speaker 1 (30:00):
Right out to Moses.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
Castillo joining me, private investigator for the Jrdulian Law Group,
former supervising detective with the LAPD, and you can find
him at Moses Castillo Investigations dot com.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
Really starting a fire? Is it my fault?
Speaker 2 (30:17):
If I killed twelve people with a cigarette, started a fire,
then I ran from the scene. Then I decided to
video the cops and the firefighters because I thought maybe
one of them would die. I mean, what is a
jury going to make of this? Do you believe that's
going to be the defense? Moses Castillo, I accidentally started
a fire with a cigarette with all this other extrinsic
(30:39):
circumstantial evidence.
Speaker 13 (30:40):
Okay, Naty, this is no fireworks now lighting, no power lanes,
just one man with one lighter and a trail of
digital brick comes. He filmed this fire, he chased the
fire trucks. Any I said, reliable, that's not remorse, that's rehearsal.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
What do you mean by that, Moses Castillo, I mean
that he.
Speaker 13 (30:57):
Pre planned this, he intended to do this. What I
do believe it's going to be very challenging for the
government to prove their case is the fact that the
fire department, they thought they put this far out, and
seven six or seven days later the wind reignited. I
think that's going to be a bigger issue for the
(31:17):
government's case.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
So let me give you a comparison, Moses Castello. I
shoot you in the leg.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
I aim for your heart, but I get your leg,
and you linger in the hospital for six days. And
then the gunshot went into your leg, causes a pulmonary
amblysm and it goes to your brain and you die.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
So what I'm not going to be charged with murder?
Think about it? Moses.
Speaker 13 (31:43):
Answer, Well, you bring a very good point and yes,
that person should be charged for verdict because it was me.
But in any event, here I do believe that there
are enough evidence, circumstantial evidence and digital footprints that can't
get him convicted. I'm just saying that defense is going
to argue, you know, the department would have done their
job properly, this would have happened. I think it's going
(32:04):
to be a defensilet on by it. I think he
definitely has the profile of somebody who would do something
like this, and this is just this should be treated
as a violent crime, not just bars him by itself.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
Okay, I want to get back to what Moses Castillo,
who is a private eye there in California, is saying.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
Listen to what the US attorney said.
Speaker 5 (32:27):
Although firefighters suppressed the blaze, the fire continued to smolder
and burn underground within the root structure of the dense vegetation.
So that fire started on January first, and it smoldered
underground for about a week until on January seventh, heavy
(32:48):
wins caused this underground fire to surface and spread above ground,
causing what became known as the Palisades Fired, one of
the most destructive wall fires in Los Angeles City.
Speaker 2 (33:02):
History and joining us Nicole Brock. She has a veteran
firefighter and a Mt. Arson expert of the Atlanta jurisdiction.
Nicole brought what is a hold over fire?
Speaker 14 (33:13):
Well, Hollover fires, Nancy, are firefighters worst nightmares. They are
the fires that once we.
Speaker 6 (33:18):
Believe that they have been out, we've extinguished the fire.
Speaker 14 (33:21):
They have a way of rekindling, and a lot of jurisdictions,
particularly like mine, we call them rekindle fires.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Nicole Brock.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
The theory is, according to the defense, this was an
accidental fire started by a cigarette.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
How do you prove arson?
Speaker 14 (33:36):
So again, arsons are difficult to prove, and to link
it back to one cigarette is going.
Speaker 8 (33:41):
To be hard.
Speaker 14 (33:42):
The big overwhelming thing with looking for arson in this
particular situation is the ignition piece.
Speaker 8 (33:50):
How many ignition points.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
The things that they're going to be looking for are fuel.
Speaker 8 (33:54):
Was their fuel that was used?
Speaker 14 (33:56):
And that's easy to detect too, because you'll see a
different charring that comes differently than you will see with
something that just started with natural vegetation. I believe that, unfortunately,
with this particular suspect, I think he's going to have
a hard time with trying to prove his case and
(34:17):
that he used a cigarette or he accidentally started a cigarette.
All of his actions point back to Arson's activity.
Speaker 8 (34:26):
Arson.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
These are things that Arson is do.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
Straight out to a special guest joining us, Alexandra Fly
for her home destroyed in the Palisades fire.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
Alexandra, thank you for being.
Speaker 6 (34:39):
With us, Thanks for having me. I appreciate your coverage.
Speaker 1 (34:43):
Alexandra. What happened that day?
Speaker 15 (34:45):
I've been listening to you guys discussing just the fire
and the seven day gap. So in the morning, just
before lunchtime around eleven those of us. I live on
a bluff below where the fire started, and if you
looked up to the top of the crest of the
hills that were behind us, you could see smoke and
(35:08):
fire in our neighborhood.
Speaker 6 (35:10):
Is not uncommon. We've had a lot of brush fires.
This felt different.
Speaker 15 (35:15):
And the thing is is from that fire, from the
first that they put out, there had been warnings all
week that we were going to have I mean, the
Santa Ana winds are a thing we know about them.
Speaker 6 (35:25):
We were being warned. So I mean, if in fact
this is Arson, and I kind of.
Speaker 15 (35:30):
Agree with the firefighter who said seven days is a
long time for a reignition of a fire. But the
winds were horrible even in the earlier part of the day,
and the fire started at around eleven and change, and
by the late afternoon, I mean, it was everywhere. So
I left fairly early because I've grown up there, I
(35:53):
know our community, and the fire just felt different this time,
and that you're now seeing images of what remained of
my home and my entire neighborhood.
Speaker 6 (36:02):
I mean, every house was gone by the evening, by
ten or eleven at night.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
Alexandra, what did you mean when you said this felt different?
Speaker 15 (36:13):
Something about the speed When I walked outside and my
driveway sort of if you looked north, you could see
the mountains fairly clearly, and you could see the movement
of the fire coming down the hill, and it was
already windy. It just had there was just a feeling
of a greater threat. And people usually with us, we
(36:34):
have a fire warning. We all tend to evacuate if
we know there's a brush fire. People were running around
in our you know, in their putting their animals in
their car, and I just looked around and it just
felt different.
Speaker 6 (36:48):
It felt a little more ominous. The smoke was darker.
It just I don't know.
Speaker 15 (36:55):
I think growing up there, you just know it was.
I knew it when I was leaving that the devastation
was going to be more than we had seen. I
certainly didn't think this would happen, but it just the
winds were already strong, and usually the winds pick up at.
Speaker 6 (37:08):
Night, and it was already windy by midday. So I just,
I don't know. I think those of us who lived there,
we just had a feeling that it knew.
Speaker 2 (37:17):
Yeah, Doctor Bethany Marshall joining a psychoanalyst in this jurisdiction,
Doctor Bethany, I think it's instinct. For instance, when you
are driving down the inter site lets seeing you look
over there and you see a brush fire and you're
not afraid.
Speaker 1 (37:33):
It doesn't put you in fear.
Speaker 2 (37:35):
As opposed to what Alexandra is saying, she knew in
her bones this was different and immediately started to evacuate.
Speaker 1 (37:44):
It was just a feeling.
Speaker 7 (37:46):
It was instinct, Nancy, It's a survival instinct, you know.
Speaker 6 (37:49):
I was in my Santa Barbara home, which is about.
Speaker 7 (37:51):
An hour and a half north of the Pacific Palisades,
and I felt it psychologically up here. The winds were
so horrendous. I was afraid they were going to blow
the roof off of my house. I had a very
eerie feeling. And then I turned on the news and
I heard about the Palisades and this purpse is alleged
purp Nancy. You know what I think is so terrifying
(38:13):
about this is that he did rehearse. Like Moses said,
I think this was sexually exciting to him. Pyromania is
a compulsion, just like compulsive masturbating, compulsive gambling, compulsive binging,
and purging. Often there's a buildup of feelings that the
perpetrator cannot self regulate, and the only way to neutralize
(38:37):
the feeling is to engage in the act, and in
this case it is pyromania.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
Alexandra, I for joining us, who lost her home? What happened?
You see the fire, You realize people are evacuating. You
know in your bones, I could die, my family could die.
Speaker 1 (38:57):
What did you do?
Speaker 2 (38:59):
Well?
Speaker 15 (38:59):
I was My biggest regret is I just left. I
had more time than I realized. But listening to you,
I think you're right. I am a pretty strong willed person.
I trust my instincts. I did feel that it was
not going to end well, and we had my daughter
had bunny rabbits.
Speaker 6 (39:19):
I put them in my car and I just drove away.
But I also had friends.
Speaker 15 (39:24):
Who lived so there are a lot of different pockets
of the Palisades. For those people who don't know the Palisades,
everybody thinks it's just a small, little niche neighborhood in
La It's pretty vast and there are different neighborhoods, and
some people live up on the hill. One of my
friends who lived up on the hill called me as
she was driving down the hill in her car caught fire.
Speaker 6 (39:44):
So I didn't want to wait. But because I didn't wait,
I lost all of my belongings. I had no time.
Speaker 15 (39:51):
I just put our animals in the car and I
drove away, and my assistant who worked for me, was
stuck in traffic and couldn't get out.
Speaker 6 (40:00):
I mean, I feel like it was about for me.
Speaker 15 (40:05):
I just felt it was more important that I got
out than I got my things out, And so everything
perished except for our animals. Other people waited a little
bit longer and were able to get some of their
personal belongings out, but you know, their lives were at risk.
I just felt like it was more important to leave.
Speaker 2 (40:23):
Doctor Kimmel Crown's joining US Chief Medical Examiner Terrett County
fort Worth, esteemed lecturer Brenette School of Medicine at TCU,
and star of a hit new podcast, Mayhem in the
Morgue Dodgor Crowns.
Speaker 1 (40:38):
In my experience of.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
Investigating and prosecuting arsons, which are a highly technical case
to prosecute, you have to have a certain expertise to
do that. Typically victims die in three ways. They either suffocate,
they actually burned to death, or an object falls on
them and they die because of blunt force trauma.
Speaker 1 (41:02):
Doctor Kendall Crowns. People that die a smoke inhalation, they
live for a period of time. They know they're dying.
Doctor Crowns, Yes, that's correct.
Speaker 16 (41:14):
When the smoke is building up, as many of the
people have it testified to today, that your eyes burn,
your throat's burning, you're starting to get mucous production, you're coughing,
you're hacking, you're gagging, and as you're breathing in this smoke,
you're also breathing in carbon monoxide. The carbon monoxide is
(41:35):
causing you your body to displace oxygen, and now you're
no longer getting proper oxygen to your tissues, and eventually
you'll not get enough oxygen because the carbon monoxide and
your tissues will die, and then you die. And this
takes place over several minutes to even a half hour
or so, depending on how high the smoke is, how
(41:56):
much carbon monoxide there is. So yes, you're very aware
of what's going on during that time period, trying to
get out, trying to escape, coughing, gagging, whatever, but you
can't get out, and then you're correct. The other ones
are things collapsed fall on you and pin you and
then you burn to that, or you just get surrounded
by the fire and you burn from that as well,
(42:17):
and then the fire itself burning you is extreme pain,
and you're in pain for several seconds to a few
minutes until you finally succumbed to shock and pass out.
Speaker 2 (42:27):
Alexandrewfifer joining us, who lost her entire home in the
Palisades fire. That could have been you what doctor Kendall
Crown's just described. I hope you never feel remorse about
not getting your things.
Speaker 6 (42:45):
Makes me so emotional, Nancy.
Speaker 15 (42:47):
But here's what a lot of people don't say, and
I said this earlier on when this happened, is that
this happened in the day. If this had happened at
night and the fire had started at six pm, not
eleven am, think about how many people have no landlines,
take sleeping pills, don't check that, turn their cell phones
(43:09):
off at night. I mean, of course any loss of life.
Nobody should have died in this fire, but imagine if
it had happened at night, and if it had burned
and escalated in the middle of the night.
Speaker 6 (43:22):
I think about it constantly. I'm very grateful that I don't.
Speaker 15 (43:25):
I'm here and that I can, you know, have time
with my family following this, and the things don't matter.
Speaker 6 (43:32):
You're right, but it's still it doesn't leave your head.
Speaker 2 (43:37):
And now we remember American heroes, the heroes that evacuated
saving their lives and the lives of others, the fire
fighters who raised their own lives to save the lives of.
Speaker 1 (43:54):
Others, and the Palisades Fire.
Speaker 2 (43:57):
And tonight we not only as justice unfolds, we pray
that justice unfolds and rains down on this case.
Speaker 1 (44:11):
Good night, friend,
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, breaking.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
News tonight burn Notice a dozen dead that we know of,
thousands left homeless, and now we learn the suspect filmed
firefighters after setting the one and only deadly Palisades blaze
that just ate up property, homes, churches, synagogues and people.
(00:36):
I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to
thank you for being with us.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
People said there's a fire in your area, and that's
when I ran upstairs to see if I could see
anything in softlings everywhere and realized that we didn't really
have a second long group.
Speaker 4 (00:52):
And this is the most devastating nightmare any of us
have covered.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
Nothing left and people.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
You start a fire and a death occurs, that's a felony.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
And I Am not going to be happy until.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
These these perps are apprehended in charge to the max.
Is that finally happening tonight A bombshell in the Palisades
fire case.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
I want you to hear the US attorney.
Speaker 5 (01:18):
As the world watched in horror as the Palisades fire burned.
Victims perished in the smoke and flames, homes where cherished
family memories and belongings were turned to rubble in ash.
The iconic Pacific Coast Highway along Malibu looked like a
war zone. Thousands of people are forced to evacuate, tho
(01:40):
homes and businesses cannot be rebuilt.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
It's one thing to hear the US attorney speaking about
what happened. It's another thing entirely to hear from an
actual victim. Straight out to Stephanie Leidecker Stephanie formerly of
LA She is the executive producer, host of True Crime Tonight,
(02:05):
founder CEO of k T Studios. Stephanie, with your background,
this must have felt like a movie production, except it
was real. And you have your son. You're a single mom,
You've got a son. You have to say what happened, Stephanie.
Speaker 4 (02:24):
You know, I was just working from home. I lived
right off of Sunset at the time, and I started
noticing cars basically backing up in front of my house,
and that's very unusual because it's a dead end. And
I was on a work zoom and I went outside,
and sure enough, you could see the blaze coming. And
if anyone knows that area sort of by Temescal Canyon
(02:45):
in Sunset, it is gridlock on a good day. So
suddenly everyone's trying to evacuate, and you know, people were
abandoning cars in front of me and running on foot,
which I understood because it felt as though there was
a chance we wouldn't get out. Yes, and my son,
you know, thankfully, we're all good. He was evacuated from
(03:09):
his school and we were the lucky ones. You know,
the structure that I was living in remained, by the
grace of God. But I can promise you so many
of the people and neighbors and loved ones, you know,
people who have lived in their home for forty five
plus years, this is it. They are wiped to the
ground and there's no real way to start over. And
(03:30):
to say it was an apocalypse, it's an understatement. So
my heart goes out to everyone who is still sort
of going through the ashes and picking up the pieces,
because it really hasn't stopped yet. You know, people are
still living with those who they evacuated to.
Speaker 6 (03:46):
Can you imagine. So yeah, hopefully there's some justice to
be had.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Stephanie Laidecker, you stated that you noticed cars were beginning
to back up bumper to bumper right outside your home,
and that's odd in a residential area to suddenly say,
a parking lot out outside your front door completely and
then you look out and see flames.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
Where were the flimes?
Speaker 4 (04:14):
I was slightly kind of really near ground zero. There
were just up ahead on the top of the hill.
I was, you know, fairly new to the area too,
so I was so ill prepared for this. I went out,
saw the flames and realized everybody who was backing up
on my street was literally trying to evacuate. There's only
one way out. And remember, as people abandon their cars,
(04:36):
fire trucks can't get in, and then residents can't get out.
So you know, it took you know, over six hours
to get you know, a mile and a half because
as the time progressed, it went from clear sky to
smoke to straight fog. You know, your phone isn't working
because you don't have satellite reception.
Speaker 6 (04:56):
You know it's harrowing kids and pets, and you just
grabbed your phone and went out.
Speaker 4 (05:01):
In my case, I didn't assume I would be back
in maybe fifteen minutes, and that this was just a
little something, And boy was I wrong. The devastation is
really unmatched. And listen for firefighters, in law enforcement and
the people who really put their lives on the line
to keep all of us safe.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
I'm so grateful, you know, Stephanie, you stated that your son,
your beautiful boy, was evacuated from his school. Yeah, I see.
That would throw me over the edge, not knowing did
the twins get evacuated? Where are they? When can I
get to them? How can I get to them? That's
one of my greatest fears, being separated from them at
(05:43):
a time of emergency, and I can't get to them.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
What was going through your mind?
Speaker 2 (05:47):
You can see the fire, yeah, and you don't have
your son.
Speaker 4 (05:52):
And you can't really communicate, right, So I'm so grateful
that the middle school he was attending, they really went
above and beyond and we're able to evacuate the entire
school to a further location. But again, you don't know
where that location is because you're struggling with communication. And
I will say this, you know, people say this. I
(06:12):
can attest to it now, you know. That is all
that mattered was getting to him. Nothing else did. And
I put my money where my mouth is on that one.
You know, stuff is stuff, but safety. People lost their lives.
Twelve people were killed in this fire, you know, and
the devastation isn't over yet, So yes, guess getting to
(06:32):
my son, seeing him and wrapping my arms around him.
I felt in my heart we were divinely guided and
continue to be so to some extent.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
You know too. Psycho analyst joining us out all the
California juristiction doctor Bethany Marshall.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
She's the author of deal Breaker. She's currently on.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Peacock and you can find her at doctor Bethany Marshall
dot com.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
Who are these people?
Speaker 2 (06:59):
You hear? Alice is still trying to get everyone out
of her house, trying to save them.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
There's six people that she's got to evacuate, two.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Children, two elderly parents for sale, her husband, all the pets,
all of this, all of that, and she looks up
and she sees guys pulling up to start looting houses.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
She's not even out of the house yet. You know,
who are those people? And Nancy?
Speaker 7 (07:22):
This happened so quickly it was like a giant was
standing over the Pacific Palisades with a blow torch. This
was not a fire, This was the whole area being torched.
And that these looters had the time to get there
tells me that, you know, after every like a riot,
a demonstration, a fire. Criminals move in very quickly afterwards,
(07:44):
and I think it's a group of people who are
actually wanting to loot and they're just waiting for the
right opportunity. And Nancy one more thing to place us
into context. It wasn't just the Palisades, it was Altade Nex.
Speaker 8 (07:55):
I have an.
Speaker 7 (07:56):
Office nearby, and I have colleagues and friends who are
sitting with their patients and they saw the fire coming
over the hill. I have patients who want to move
back home. They could rebuild the fires that the houses
they've lost, but there's no infrastructure. There's no churches, there's
no synagogues, no running water, no neighbors, no community.
Speaker 6 (08:19):
So it's not just.
Speaker 7 (08:21):
The destruction of each individual home, it's the destruction of everything.
Speaker 6 (08:27):
And I have one patient who had a.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
Million dollar home. The insurance the.
Speaker 7 (08:31):
Insurance company offered her two hundred thousand dollars to rebuild
the home and she can't do it with that.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
In addition to all the property damage you're hearing about,
at least twelve people die and now.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
Who did it? Just I hope you're sitting down listen.
Speaker 5 (08:55):
Today we are announcing the arrest of twenty nine year
old Jonathan Winderneck for igniting a fire that ultimately burned
down the Policies earlier this year, killing twelve people, destroying
more than sixteen hundred structures, both homes and businesses, and
damaging over one thousand more buildings.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
Who is this guy?
Speaker 2 (09:17):
And why why burn a notice? How can we prove
and our sin first? Is very difficult to do. You
have to prove first of all.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
That a crime occurred, that this was not some sort
of an.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
Accident, but then intent, that a crime was intended. Who
in the world would cause such an incident, claiming the
lives of at least twelve and ruining literally thousands of acres,
ripping people from their homes, and they can never go back.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
Who is this guy?
Speaker 9 (09:51):
Growing up in France, Renderneck is now living in Pacific
Palisades working as a uber driver. In the fall, Renderneck
feeds Chad Gpt a detailed blending imagery of a dystopian
painting divided into parts that blend together seamlessly, fire, fear,
rich people and the poor. A month later, he tells
a family member he burned his Bible and describes it
(10:13):
to chat Gpt as liberating as the year comes to
an end. His last Passengers of twenty twenty four described
the twenty nine year old as agitated and angry.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
I don't understand what I'm hearing. He tells a family member.
He burned his Bible and he said it was liberating,
and he is relentlessly searching chat gpt. He blends an
imagery of a dystopian painting divided into parts fire, fear,
(10:48):
rich people and poor, and the fire.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
Is looming down on all of them. That's his work.
He created that, Sidney Sumner. That's absolutely cool.
Speaker 10 (11:00):
Investigators found that Renderneck created a concerning chat GPT prompt,
so he asked chat gpt, this AI service, to create
an image of a city essentially burning down. So it
created twelve different shots, and you see the fire pearing
(11:21):
through this city and people running out of the city
into the woods for cover. It's very, very disturbing.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
It is disturbing, and I would say probative that it
proves something. But to Dina Dahl joining us out of
this jurisdiction, try a lawyer, attorney, a consultant, Dina. If
they want to make these charges stick, they're going to
need more than a dystopian painting depicting a fire looming
(11:52):
down on all parts of some dystopian city.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
They're going to need more than that, absolutely.
Speaker 11 (11:57):
I mean the fact that he wants this image, and
also the fact that he listened to a song, which
I'm sure you'll talk about as well. You know, people's
aren't aren't great, you know, motivation in court, you know,
presenting a picture and a song somebody listened to, as
you said, Arson, is going to be very difficult to prove.
(12:18):
And this, you know, is how somebody enjoys their music
or what images they like to see. That's going to
be hard to connect the dots to a jury.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
Crime stories with Nancy Grace, this is what the US
attorney says happened.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
Let's hear it from the horses mouth.
Speaker 5 (12:44):
After dropping off a passenger in Pacific Poli seats, Rinderneck
parked his car and tried and failed to contact a
former friend. He exited the car, walked up a nearby trail,
took iPhone videos at a nearby hilltime up and listened
to a rap song whose music video including objects being
(13:05):
lit on fire. The defendant had listened to this song
and watched its music video repeatedly in the days leading
up to the Lochman fire. Twelve minutes into the new year,
environmental sensing platforms indicated that a fire had started.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
Isn't it true?
Speaker 2 (13:21):
Sydney Summer Crime Stories investigative reporter that he listened to
this song over and over and over and it's.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
All about burning, burning things down.
Speaker 10 (13:33):
Yes, Rendernick listened to this song repeatedly in the days
leading up to the Lachman fire, a song that.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
He was playing on Loop.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
Let's listen to it. But he played that over and
over and over on Loop.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
That from at Josman.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
So the say is going to need more than what
he was listening to in his ear pod. And they're
gonna need more than some wacky dystopian painting.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
They're gonna need hard evidence to prove it. Arson case.
Guys joining me right now.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Shannon Butler, investigative reporter, WFTV Channel nine, Florida. She just
walked out a federal court a few hours ago for
she observed the suspect at his first court appear at
Shannon Butler, what happened?
Speaker 12 (14:33):
We just got out of this federal courthouse here in
downtown Orlando. This was a detention hearing, and what the
judge decided is that he is too much of a
flight risk to be allowed bond, so he will remain
behind bars here in Orlando until he has transferred them
back to LA There is another hearing now on October seventeenth. Well,
(14:55):
they will present some more of that evidence, not preliminary hearing,
but today the judge was concerned about his mental state
and his living arrangements.
Speaker 8 (15:05):
He had been living in.
Speaker 12 (15:06):
Florida for about the last five months, living with his
sister and brother in law, but in the last month,
two nine one one calls were made from that home.
Speaker 8 (15:17):
The first call came about.
Speaker 12 (15:19):
September seventeenth, where the family members told them there was
a disturbance inside the home where he threatened to burn
their house down. Now, just a week later, another nine
to one one call from that home where his father
said that he had a gun and was threatening to
shoot his brother in law if his brother in law
(15:41):
started to come towards him.
Speaker 8 (15:43):
And he needed to do that in self defense.
Speaker 12 (15:46):
So the family really put painting a picture for us
here of a defining mental state.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
Okay, Shannon Butler, don't know Shannon Butler joining us ives
he had reported WFTV Channel nine, Florida. You said, the
judge stayed the suspect is a flight risk, which leads
to me to my first question, what's he doing in Florida.
If he can make it all the way from California
to Florida, he clearly is a flight risk. What did
(16:13):
he drive his ubercar there?
Speaker 12 (16:14):
Well, he did drive his car from California to Florida.
But the judge said, he also has ties to France.
It's where another brother and his father lived. He lived
there for some time. He even speaks French. They were
concerned about that. They were also concerned because he made
some comments that he may go try to live in Bali.
Speaker 8 (16:34):
So all of those things.
Speaker 12 (16:35):
Oh another thing, Nancy, he told investigators that he could
not find his passport.
Speaker 8 (16:41):
It was lost.
Speaker 12 (16:42):
That of course, raising quite a concern for the judge.
When you don't know where your passport is. They said, well,
what is lost could be found.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
Shannon, Ball are joining us outside the courthouse. You're absolutely correct, Shannon.
He grew up in France, he lived there many many years.
Then he goes to Pacific palis As. I don't know
what occurred in between that France and Pacific Palace. Now
he's in Melbourne, Florida, and he's been working as an
uber driver. As a matter of fact, according to the
federal government, just before he started the fire that turned
(17:11):
into the Palisades fire, he had just dropped.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
Off his first Uber passenger of the year.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
He lives on chat GPT, which is going to be
a treasure trove for prosecutors. But let me understand, he's
not getting bond.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Is that right?
Speaker 8 (17:33):
That is correct.
Speaker 12 (17:34):
You will be made here in Orlando and tell another
hearing where he has for evidence here on October seventeenth.
After that, it remains to be seen when he will
then head back to California to face these charges. Remember, Nancy,
these are just the beginning of what could be more
and more charges. Right now, facing a mandatory minimum of
five years up to.
Speaker 8 (17:56):
Twenty or so.
Speaker 12 (17:57):
But now they're looking at the possibility of twenty to
the death penalty because I remember a dozen deaths there
in California.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
Yeah, you know what, a dozen.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
If that doesn't qualify for the death penalty, I don't
know what will. And I'm gonna get into it with
Dina Dole in just a moment regarding felony murder. But
Shannon Butler, what was your observation of him in court?
Speaker 12 (18:18):
So he walked in in a red jumpsuit, he was
a little bit disheveled.
Speaker 8 (18:22):
He has long hair, he was disheveled.
Speaker 12 (18:26):
He did engage with his public defender quite a bit,
sometimes smiling, shaking his head a lot at.
Speaker 8 (18:33):
What the prosecutors were saying.
Speaker 12 (18:35):
The prosecutors had some conversations with the courtroom about him
breaking up with a girl just before he allegedly started
this fire, that he broke up with her and he
was in kind of a bad state, didn't have any friends,
didn't have a network, and that's kind of when things
started to go downhill.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
Shannon, stop, stop right there. You think I care.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
He broke up with his girlfriend, who on this panel
has never.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
Been dumped at least once.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
We've all been dumped by somebody, and we've all dumped somebody.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
So what wait, he is in a bad place. What
are you saying to me? He was in a bad place.
He had a car, he had.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
EarPods, he had a full stomach, a place to stay,
gasoline in his car.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
You know people around the world. That means he's in
the top one percent of people in the world. So
what do you mean, He's.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
In a bad place, so bad he had to kill
twelve people and destroyed the line. Did you hear Stephanie Lydecker,
her whole place gone, her.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
Son evacuated, She didn't even know where he was.
Speaker 12 (19:45):
Yeah, that's what the prosecutor has basically said that what
has happened to him was not didn't really give a
good excuse for what happened here. They said when they
approached him and started to interview him back in January,
that he told a lot of lies to those investigators.
(20:06):
They wouldn't he wouldn't answer questions like what kind of
cigarettes do you smoke? And today in court they found
out not only did they know he had one gun
that he was keeping Nancy in a bear with a
zipper on it, a child's toy, that's where he was
keeping this gun. But today the special agent got on
the stand and said, just today they got some evidence
(20:27):
back that he had a second gun in his possession
that they knew nothing about. They said he wasn't very
honest in those original interviews, and that was another reason
they thought he should stay here behind bars.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
Straight back out to Shannon Butler, WFTV.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Channel nine, who has been in the courtroom observing the defendant.
This is a huge break in the case.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
It's very hard to determine, first weather case is ares
because the evidence.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
Is all burned up.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
And then if it is arson intentional, who did it.
Last thing you want is a firebug, a pyromaniac with
two guns wandering around who's threatening people. So the judge
did the right thing keeping him behind bars.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
But you stated that he was You said shaking his head.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
I assume that means shaking his head, no, not nodding
his head. Yes, correct, correct? Did he say anything in court?
Speaker 8 (21:22):
No, he didn't.
Speaker 12 (21:23):
The only thing that he said was the judge asked
him again how to pronounce his name, and he gave
him the pronunciation of his name. But that's all he
said in this about an hour and a half hearing this.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
Morning, Shannon Butler, you said that he was disagreeing with
what the prosecutors were saying.
Speaker 12 (21:41):
Yeah, he shook his head when they started talking about
his ex girlfriend. That on New Year's Eve, right before
this fire started, he had text his ex.
Speaker 8 (21:52):
She did not answer.
Speaker 12 (21:53):
He had text somebody else that said no, I don't
want to hang out I need some space. And then
a third person he texted to hang out with on
New Year's Eve said they didn't remember him. So he
was shaking his head during that and a couple of
other times when they were talking about those incidents inside
the home where he was living.
Speaker 8 (22:12):
Nancy let me point out too that.
Speaker 12 (22:14):
The brother in law and the sister were so afraid
inside their home. They wanted to get him out, and
police said, you know, you probably should leave. Here's how
you evict somebody, but they were so scared. In the meantime,
they moved out of their own home, and he was
living in that house by himself because the brother in
law and the sister did not want to live with
(22:35):
him anymore with their kids. They thought he was just
not in the right state of mind given the last
couple of things that had happened.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
Wow, his sister and her husband and children move out
of their own home rather than live with him there.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
Out of fear.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
Okay, I see a case beginning the building.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
Of a case. It's not just some dystopian painting. He
created a chat GPT.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
It's not just listening to lyrics where you see a
guy burning up money, starting a fire in a trash can,
and you watch it over and over and over, and
the guy singing is just totally miserable. But we're getting
more evidence. We're getting more evidence. I want you to
hear what the US attorney has to say.
Speaker 5 (23:23):
It took the defendant several tries to try tack nine
to one one to report the fire. He fled the
scene in his car, but turned around after passing fire engines,
driving in the opposite direction to fight the fire. To
fight the fire. While the Lackman fire burned, the defendant
walked up the same trail from earlier that night to
(23:43):
watch the fire and firefighters, using his iPhone to take
short videos of the scene.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
To Dina Dahl joining as veteran trial lawyer, out of
this jurisdiction, you've got the alleged purp calling nine to
one one over and and over from the scene where
the fire started.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
That speaks to me, that means something.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
In fact, one of the biggest arson cases I ever
investigated and prosecuted.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
The purp himself called nine one one. He's a millionaire.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
When the fire trucks arrived, he was lying all romanesque
on the lawn across the street.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
From his home, which was in flames.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
After about four or five minutes, he has, oh, yeah,
my wife's in there. Yeah, he called nine one one,
just like this guy's calling a nine one one.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
What about it, Dina Dahl?
Speaker 11 (24:35):
I think what you said there alleged. We got to
remember here, you know, he's innocent until proven guilty, and
that's not nothing right. This applies regardless of how bad
we think the crime is. And just because he called that,
I mean to your point where you said earlier, Arson
has to be intentional, it has to be malicious. The
fact that he called so many times. His defense attorney,
(24:59):
I am sure will argue that if they can, if
they're even going to conceive that he lit the fire,
it was accidental, and that is the evidence of him
trying to call so many times. Was him trying to
get the fire stopped. Not showing guilt but actually showing
his innocence.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
Oh okay, Stephanie Leidecker joining us. She and her boy
were evacuated after the fire threatened their lives.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
Did you know in between calling nine one one, he
was video he was leaving, he was leaving the scene.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
Then he sees fire trucks coming, went ooh, I want
a video that he.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
Turns around, follows the fire trucks and comes back and
videos them risking their lives to fight the fire.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
So I don't know if I can add a felon
account of PERV. But you're leaving the scene of a
fire you allegedly started. But you see, oh, here come
guys and women about to risk their lives.
Speaker 1 (26:06):
One may die.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
I better get that on video, and goes back while
all this is happening. People have been evacuated, they're dying,
and he's videoing it.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
That don't bother you because it bothers me.
Speaker 4 (26:21):
Yeah, it bothers me a lot. Imagine what kind of
a sicko would actually set a fire intentionally, if in
fact this is what he did allegedly allegedly allegedly then
to offer to help firefighters to help right the blaze
that he potentially started for himself. Is this an idea
that he'll be a hero. Will he be the guy
that is now sunnily relevant because he's destroyed so many lives.
(26:44):
I personally would like him to come talk to you
about it. I'll hide behind you with backup. But if
this is true, it is so devastating that one person
could do this to so many.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
You know, Stephanie, you just brought up the idea. Did
he want to pretend he was the hero? Analyze his acts?
So he goes to the scene before the fire starts.
He's there before the fire starts. The fire starts, he
tries to call nine one one, then he leaves. He
(27:16):
then sees firetrucks coming and decides, I'm not leaving. I'm
gonna go video them while they fight the blaze. And
he stays there and takes video as his rap song
plays over and over and he can see in the
video a guy starting fires. And we've heard from Shannon Butler.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
About how distraught he was he had no one to
hang out with on New Year's Eve.
Speaker 4 (27:42):
Really, whoa I mean, tell that to everybody who's lost
absolutely everything and also the loss of life. It's unimaginable.
And this guy got dumped by his girlfriend and suddenly
that's enough. He was feeling lost in the sauce about
what life was meant for him. He had a job.
To your point, he had EarPods. If in fact this
is true, and amily goes to show that we are
(28:05):
that disconnected that on New Year's Day, the start of.
Speaker 6 (28:08):
A fresh year. This person decides.
Speaker 4 (28:11):
That he's going to take matters into his own hands
and have some dystopian photo of Look at these videos
right now. The destruction is unimaginable. It's a town that's
been completely wiped off the mat It's literally just chimneys
and abandoned cars, and you know, the ripple effect is real.
Everyone is still traumatized by the event. I can't tell
(28:32):
you how many neighbors and friends I speak to that
are just lost because there's nowhere to go. There's no
money to start over. So if you're lucky enough and listen,
I'm one of them that was like, I'm out, there's
a new life someplace else, because I'm too scared to
look over my shoulder at this point. But imagine those
who have lost absolutely everything. Their life is an ash
(28:54):
and they have to now stay and figure out how
to push on in this town that is now still
very far away from being inhabitable.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
Crime stores with Nancy Gray.
Speaker 9 (29:14):
During calls, Renderneck asked chat GPT, are you at fault
if a fire is lit because of your cigarettes? Renderneck
gives conflicting statements about whether he smoked near the trail
that night, and where he was when he called Renderneck
claims he was at the bottom of the trail, but
location data shows while speaking with nine one one he's
(29:34):
just thirty feet from the fire's origin.
Speaker 5 (29:37):
He lied about where he was when he first saw
the Lockman fire, claiming he was near the bottom of
a hiking trail. Geolocation data for the nine to one
one calls showed that he was standing above the fire
and in clearing, merely thirty feet from the blaze as
it rapidly grew.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
Asking jat GPT, is it my fault if I started
a fire with a cigarette?
Speaker 1 (30:00):
Right out to Moses.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
Castillo joining me, private investigator for the Jrdulian Law Group,
former supervising detective with the LAPD, and you can find
him at Moses Castillo Investigations dot com.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
Really starting a fire? Is it my fault?
Speaker 2 (30:17):
If I killed twelve people with a cigarette, started a fire,
then I ran from the scene. Then I decided to
video the cops and the firefighters because I thought maybe
one of them would die. I mean, what is a
jury going to make of this? Do you believe that's
going to be the defense? Moses Castillo, I accidentally started
a fire with a cigarette with all this other extrinsic
(30:39):
circumstantial evidence.
Speaker 13 (30:40):
Okay, Naty, this is no fireworks now lighting, no power lanes,
just one man with one lighter and a trail of
digital brick comes. He filmed this fire, he chased the
fire trucks. Any I said, reliable, that's not remorse, that's rehearsal.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
What do you mean by that, Moses Castillo, I mean
that he.
Speaker 13 (30:57):
Pre planned this, he intended to do this. What I
do believe it's going to be very challenging for the
government to prove their case is the fact that the
fire department, they thought they put this far out, and
seven six or seven days later the wind reignited. I
think that's going to be a bigger issue for the
(31:17):
government's case.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
So let me give you a comparison, Moses Castello. I
shoot you in the leg.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
I aim for your heart, but I get your leg,
and you linger in the hospital for six days. And
then the gunshot went into your leg, causes a pulmonary
amblysm and it goes to your brain and you die.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
So what I'm not going to be charged with murder?
Think about it? Moses.
Speaker 13 (31:43):
Answer, Well, you bring a very good point and yes,
that person should be charged for verdict because it was me.
But in any event, here I do believe that there
are enough evidence, circumstantial evidence and digital footprints that can't
get him convicted. I'm just saying that defense is going
to argue, you know, the department would have done their
job properly, this would have happened. I think it's going
(32:04):
to be a defensilet on by it. I think he
definitely has the profile of somebody who would do something
like this, and this is just this should be treated
as a violent crime, not just bars him by itself.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
Okay, I want to get back to what Moses Castillo,
who is a private eye there in California, is saying.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
Listen to what the US attorney said.
Speaker 5 (32:27):
Although firefighters suppressed the blaze, the fire continued to smolder
and burn underground within the root structure of the dense vegetation.
So that fire started on January first, and it smoldered
underground for about a week until on January seventh, heavy
(32:48):
wins caused this underground fire to surface and spread above ground,
causing what became known as the Palisades Fired, one of
the most destructive wall fires in Los Angeles City.
Speaker 2 (33:02):
History and joining us Nicole Brock. She has a veteran
firefighter and a Mt. Arson expert of the Atlanta jurisdiction.
Nicole brought what is a hold over fire?
Speaker 14 (33:13):
Well, Hollover fires, Nancy, are firefighters worst nightmares. They are
the fires that once we.
Speaker 6 (33:18):
Believe that they have been out, we've extinguished the fire.
Speaker 14 (33:21):
They have a way of rekindling, and a lot of jurisdictions,
particularly like mine, we call them rekindle fires.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Nicole Brock.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
The theory is, according to the defense, this was an
accidental fire started by a cigarette.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
How do you prove arson?
Speaker 14 (33:36):
So again, arsons are difficult to prove, and to link
it back to one cigarette is going.
Speaker 8 (33:41):
To be hard.
Speaker 14 (33:42):
The big overwhelming thing with looking for arson in this
particular situation is the ignition piece.
Speaker 8 (33:50):
How many ignition points.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
The things that they're going to be looking for are fuel.
Speaker 8 (33:54):
Was their fuel that was used?
Speaker 14 (33:56):
And that's easy to detect too, because you'll see a
different charring that comes differently than you will see with
something that just started with natural vegetation. I believe that, unfortunately,
with this particular suspect, I think he's going to have
a hard time with trying to prove his case and
(34:17):
that he used a cigarette or he accidentally started a cigarette.
All of his actions point back to Arson's activity.
Speaker 8 (34:26):
Arson.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
These are things that Arson is do.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
Straight out to a special guest joining us, Alexandra Fly
for her home destroyed in the Palisades fire.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
Alexandra, thank you for being.
Speaker 6 (34:39):
With us, Thanks for having me. I appreciate your coverage.
Speaker 1 (34:43):
Alexandra. What happened that day?
Speaker 15 (34:45):
I've been listening to you guys discussing just the fire
and the seven day gap. So in the morning, just
before lunchtime around eleven those of us. I live on
a bluff below where the fire started, and if you
looked up to the top of the crest of the
hills that were behind us, you could see smoke and
(35:08):
fire in our neighborhood.
Speaker 6 (35:10):
Is not uncommon. We've had a lot of brush fires.
This felt different.
Speaker 15 (35:15):
And the thing is is from that fire, from the
first that they put out, there had been warnings all
week that we were going to have I mean, the
Santa Ana winds are a thing we know about them.
Speaker 6 (35:25):
We were being warned. So I mean, if in fact
this is Arson, and I kind of.
Speaker 15 (35:30):
Agree with the firefighter who said seven days is a
long time for a reignition of a fire. But the
winds were horrible even in the earlier part of the day,
and the fire started at around eleven and change, and
by the late afternoon, I mean, it was everywhere. So
I left fairly early because I've grown up there, I
(35:53):
know our community, and the fire just felt different this time,
and that you're now seeing images of what remained of
my home and my entire neighborhood.
Speaker 6 (36:02):
I mean, every house was gone by the evening, by
ten or eleven at night.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
Alexandra, what did you mean when you said this felt different?
Speaker 15 (36:13):
Something about the speed When I walked outside and my
driveway sort of if you looked north, you could see
the mountains fairly clearly, and you could see the movement
of the fire coming down the hill, and it was
already windy. It just had there was just a feeling
of a greater threat. And people usually with us, we
(36:34):
have a fire warning. We all tend to evacuate if
we know there's a brush fire. People were running around
in our you know, in their putting their animals in
their car, and I just looked around and it just
felt different.
Speaker 6 (36:48):
It felt a little more ominous. The smoke was darker.
It just I don't know.
Speaker 15 (36:55):
I think growing up there, you just know it was.
I knew it when I was leaving that the devastation
was going to be more than we had seen. I
certainly didn't think this would happen, but it just the
winds were already strong, and usually the winds pick up at.
Speaker 6 (37:08):
Night, and it was already windy by midday. So I just,
I don't know. I think those of us who lived there,
we just had a feeling that it knew.
Speaker 2 (37:17):
Yeah, Doctor Bethany Marshall joining a psychoanalyst in this jurisdiction,
Doctor Bethany, I think it's instinct. For instance, when you
are driving down the inter site lets seeing you look
over there and you see a brush fire and you're
not afraid.
Speaker 1 (37:33):
It doesn't put you in fear.
Speaker 2 (37:35):
As opposed to what Alexandra is saying, she knew in
her bones this was different and immediately started to evacuate.
Speaker 1 (37:44):
It was just a feeling.
Speaker 7 (37:46):
It was instinct, Nancy, It's a survival instinct, you know.
Speaker 6 (37:49):
I was in my Santa Barbara home, which is about.
Speaker 7 (37:51):
An hour and a half north of the Pacific Palisades,
and I felt it psychologically up here. The winds were
so horrendous. I was afraid they were going to blow
the roof off of my house. I had a very
eerie feeling. And then I turned on the news and
I heard about the Palisades and this purpse is alleged
purp Nancy. You know what I think is so terrifying
(38:13):
about this is that he did rehearse. Like Moses said,
I think this was sexually exciting to him. Pyromania is
a compulsion, just like compulsive masturbating, compulsive gambling, compulsive binging,
and purging. Often there's a buildup of feelings that the
perpetrator cannot self regulate, and the only way to neutralize
(38:37):
the feeling is to engage in the act, and in
this case it is pyromania.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
Alexandra, I for joining us, who lost her home? What happened?
You see the fire, You realize people are evacuating. You
know in your bones, I could die, my family could die.
Speaker 1 (38:57):
What did you do?
Speaker 2 (38:59):
Well?
Speaker 15 (38:59):
I was My biggest regret is I just left. I
had more time than I realized. But listening to you,
I think you're right. I am a pretty strong willed person.
I trust my instincts. I did feel that it was
not going to end well, and we had my daughter
had bunny rabbits.
Speaker 6 (39:19):
I put them in my car and I just drove away.
But I also had friends.
Speaker 15 (39:24):
Who lived so there are a lot of different pockets
of the Palisades. For those people who don't know the Palisades,
everybody thinks it's just a small, little niche neighborhood in
La It's pretty vast and there are different neighborhoods, and
some people live up on the hill. One of my
friends who lived up on the hill called me as
she was driving down the hill in her car caught fire.
Speaker 6 (39:44):
So I didn't want to wait. But because I didn't wait,
I lost all of my belongings. I had no time.
Speaker 15 (39:51):
I just put our animals in the car and I
drove away, and my assistant who worked for me, was
stuck in traffic and couldn't get out.
Speaker 6 (40:00):
I mean, I feel like it was about for me.
Speaker 15 (40:05):
I just felt it was more important that I got
out than I got my things out, And so everything
perished except for our animals. Other people waited a little
bit longer and were able to get some of their
personal belongings out, but you know, their lives were at risk.
I just felt like it was more important to leave.
Speaker 2 (40:23):
Doctor Kimmel Crown's joining US Chief Medical Examiner Terrett County
fort Worth, esteemed lecturer Brenette School of Medicine at TCU,
and star of a hit new podcast, Mayhem in the
Morgue Dodgor Crowns.
Speaker 1 (40:38):
In my experience of.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
Investigating and prosecuting arsons, which are a highly technical case
to prosecute, you have to have a certain expertise to
do that. Typically victims die in three ways. They either suffocate,
they actually burned to death, or an object falls on
them and they die because of blunt force trauma.
Speaker 1 (41:02):
Doctor Kendall Crowns. People that die a smoke inhalation, they
live for a period of time. They know they're dying.
Doctor Crowns, Yes, that's correct.
Speaker 16 (41:14):
When the smoke is building up, as many of the
people have it testified to today, that your eyes burn,
your throat's burning, you're starting to get mucous production, you're coughing,
you're hacking, you're gagging, and as you're breathing in this smoke,
you're also breathing in carbon monoxide. The carbon monoxide is
(41:35):
causing you your body to displace oxygen, and now you're
no longer getting proper oxygen to your tissues, and eventually
you'll not get enough oxygen because the carbon monoxide and
your tissues will die, and then you die. And this
takes place over several minutes to even a half hour
or so, depending on how high the smoke is, how
(41:56):
much carbon monoxide there is. So yes, you're very aware
of what's going on during that time period, trying to
get out, trying to escape, coughing, gagging, whatever, but you
can't get out, and then you're correct. The other ones
are things collapsed fall on you and pin you and
then you burn to that, or you just get surrounded
by the fire and you burn from that as well,
(42:17):
and then the fire itself burning you is extreme pain,
and you're in pain for several seconds to a few
minutes until you finally succumbed to shock and pass out.
Speaker 2 (42:27):
Alexandrewfifer joining us, who lost her entire home in the
Palisades fire. That could have been you what doctor Kendall
Crown's just described. I hope you never feel remorse about
not getting your things.
Speaker 6 (42:45):
Makes me so emotional, Nancy.
Speaker 15 (42:47):
But here's what a lot of people don't say, and
I said this earlier on when this happened, is that
this happened in the day. If this had happened at
night and the fire had started at six pm, not
eleven am, think about how many people have no landlines,
take sleeping pills, don't check that, turn their cell phones
(43:09):
off at night. I mean, of course any loss of life.
Nobody should have died in this fire, but imagine if
it had happened at night, and if it had burned
and escalated in the middle of the night.
Speaker 6 (43:22):
I think about it constantly. I'm very grateful that I don't.
Speaker 15 (43:25):
I'm here and that I can, you know, have time
with my family following this, and the things don't matter.
Speaker 6 (43:32):
You're right, but it's still it doesn't leave your head.
Speaker 2 (43:37):
And now we remember American heroes, the heroes that evacuated
saving their lives and the lives of others, the fire
fighters who raised their own lives to save the lives of.
Speaker 1 (43:54):
Others, and the Palisades Fire.
Speaker 2 (43:57):
And tonight we not only as justice unfolds, we pray
that justice unfolds and rains down on this case.
Speaker 1 (44:11):
Good night, friend,
Host
Nancy Grace
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