September 11, 2025 • 48 mins
The FBI has released images of a person of interest in the Charlie Kirk shooting, offering a $100,000 reward for information. The killer is still at-large
Authorities say the shooter fired from a central building that houses the university's welcome center. Part of that building is just over 100 meters from the location where Charlie Kirk was speaking to an estimated crowd around 3,000. A live stream of the video, with high-quality audio, captures the assassination. Many in the crowd duck, scream, and start to panic in the moments after the single shot is fired.
Police say a high-powered rifle has been found in nearby woods, as well as a "footwear impression... and a forearm imprint."
Joining Nancy Grace today:
- Greg Morse - Criminal Defense Attorney of Morse Legal, author of “The Untested” found on Amazon; website: morselegal.com
- Dr. Chloe Carmichael - Clinical Psychologist, Author of “Can I Say That? Why Free Speech Matters and How to Use it Fearlessly” website: www.FreeSpeechToday.com, Twitter: DrChloe
- Dan Murphy - Former NYPD Detective-Sergeant, Joint Terrorism Task Force, Former Chief Security Officer, US Bancorp, Co-Host of "Gold Shields" Podcast, Author: “Workplace Safety: Establishing an Effective Violence Prevention Program”
- Koa Lorimor - Former Army Sniper
- Katherine Schweit - Creator of the FBI’s Active Shooter Program, Former Chicago prosecutor and career GBI special agent, Author of “Stop the Killing; How to End the Mass Shooting Crisis” and “How to Talk About Guns to Anyone.”, Host of podcast “Stop the Killing”, website: katherineschweit.com
- Dr. Kendall Crowns - Chief Medical Examiner Tarrant County (Ft Worth), Host of NEW Podcast "Mayhem in the Morgue”, Lecturer: Burnett School of Medicine at TCU (Texas Christian University)
- Dave Mack - Crime Stories Investigative Reporter
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Charlie Kirk dead at thirty
one tonight, the massive manhunt for the assassin who guns
down a father of two, two botched arrests so far.
(00:23):
I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to
thank you for being with us.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Charlie Kirk has been shot at Utah University.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
All witnesses are reporting that all they heard was a
single shot that was fired.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
He's a young man, He's thirty two years old. Charlie
Kirk was shot at a rally.
Speaker 4 (00:43):
Dear Lord in Heaven.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Kirk targeted, we believe because of his beliefs, gunned down
by a sniper, a sharpshooter, an assassin surrounded by teens
and college students.
Speaker 4 (01:07):
Why and who? Thank you for being with us?
Speaker 1 (01:13):
In the wake, the assassin leaves behind a grieving widow,
his wife, and two little children who will grow up
without daddy.
Speaker 4 (01:25):
Why? Why? Because you disagree with what he says. You
don't have to agree with what he says. This is America.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Nobody agrees with anything anybody says. Yet he got the
death penalty because you disagree. You know what Kirk would
say to people? Hey, all of you out there that
disagree with me. I want you at the front of
the line because I'm going to try to convince you you're wrong.
Speaker 4 (01:54):
I don't want you to quiet yourselves. I want you
at the front of the line. I want to hear
what you have to say. But no to you. The assassin,
he had to die again.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
I Nancy Grayson is his crime stories. I want to
thank you for being with us on this very very
dark night.
Speaker 4 (02:18):
Listen, do you know how many transgender Americans have masshooters
over the last ten years?
Speaker 3 (02:24):
Too many?
Speaker 1 (02:31):
Fine?
Speaker 4 (02:31):
Okay, now By's long right. I'm gonna give you any
of his credit.
Speaker 5 (02:34):
Do you know how many masshooters there have been in
America over the last ten years?
Speaker 4 (02:39):
Accounting or not?
Speaker 3 (02:40):
Comic gang violence.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Chaos on the Utah Valley University campus has thousands of
students and locals run from Kirk's booth screaming. Kirk's security
team rushes into action, putting pressure on Kirk's wound and
escorting him to awaiting suv to take him to the hospital.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
You saw originally is from at Beanie Johnson on X
and you can hear it's not Kirk asking about how
many transgender Americans have been mass shooters over the last
ten years. It's a student asking that question. You don't
have to agree with the student. You may violently disagree
with the student. Kirk was taken out and we will
(03:24):
find the shooter and he will face the death penalty,
mark my words. In the last hours, law enforcement has
released a facial shot of the perp. I want you
to look at it. We can learn a lot. There
he is walking. We've also got a shot more head on,
(03:46):
but look there, you go much much better.
Speaker 4 (03:50):
That is him going up the stairwell.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
He is wearing jeans, a baseball cat black in collar.
He's wearing tennis shoes and we know he's left behind
a foot impression. By the time we see him, he
looks as if he is clad all in black.
Speaker 4 (04:08):
Maid.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
This is him making his way up the steps. What
can we learn? We already knew that it was released.
He was college age. Here he is clean shaven, college
age man. Do you really think your sunglasses are going
to trick l e, the fads, the locals, the works,
(04:29):
good luck and a couple of days they're going to
know where you bought those sunglasses and what you signed
on the credit card slip what can.
Speaker 4 (04:37):
We learn about this guy?
Speaker 1 (04:38):
White, male, college age, slight in build.
Speaker 4 (04:42):
Joining me right now.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
Forensics expert and Professor of Forensics Jacksonville State University, Joseph
Scott Morgan, Joe.
Speaker 4 (04:49):
Scott, I can glean a lot. Let's see the picture again.
I want everybody to see this. There is currently a
one hundred.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
Thousand dollars reward on this guy. This guy, Okay, Joe Scott.
It looks like he drove away from mommy and Daddy's
house in the suburbs and he decided to shoot somebody dead.
Does he actually have his wallet in his front right pocket?
I see a mark on his jeans that tells me
(05:15):
that's how he usually carries it. In a moment, I'm
going to figure out what kind of tennishoes he's wearing.
But you see the American fly with a gun on it.
I'm learning so much right now. Okay, what do you see,
Joe Scott?
Speaker 3 (05:27):
Well, I see that he has unngloved hands, Nancy, and
it looks like in the other shot, it looks like
he may be making an effort to grab hold of
that rail. Guess what if you do that.
Speaker 4 (05:39):
With his forearm? Though? Look, look well, well, yeah, but.
Speaker 3 (05:42):
How do we know How do we know that he
didn't touch any of the surfaces along the way Lacart's principle,
every contact leaves a trace. You cannot be this perfect,
all right, So up there, there's going to be information
that will tie him back. I think biological information. We
already have evidence that there may in fact have been
(06:03):
a palm print left behind. You had mentioned a footprint.
And also if the reports are true and we're hearing
about this weapon that may have been recovered, this is
going to be a specific tie back to him, Nancy,
just based upon the process of purchasing one serial number
that's on here, any kind of add ons that may
(06:23):
be found on this weapon, I'm thinking, like scopes and
oh boy, the ammunition we've got from what they are saying,
we have a spent round that's still chambered. Because this
weapon is a bolt action, that means you have to
actuate the bolt itself, lift it up, pull it back,
that ejects it. This is not a semi automatic weapon,
(06:46):
and then you force another round. In Nancy, he never
ejected the round, according to what FBI sources are saying.
And there are still three other live rounds in the
internal magazine of this weapon, and all of them are
going to have little bits that are going to be
offered up relative to connectivity back to this potent, this
(07:08):
person potentially.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
Straight out to Dave Mack joining us investigated reporter crime
stories on the case from the very moment it happened.
Dave matt what happened.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
Charlie Kirk is on campus Nancy to do one of
his events where he speaks to students and talks about
all things.
Speaker 4 (07:24):
I mean, everything's on the table.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
And in the moments before you right before you see
him in the ten there, right before that, he was
actually throwing hats to the crowd. You got about three
thousand people there. He's throwing hats and talking to people.
And before he actually was going to give his speech,
he actually opened up microphones for young people to come
to the front and start and ask questions.
Speaker 4 (07:45):
It was kind of a warm up.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
And he was in the about a minute minute fifteen
seconds into actually sitting where he's right there when the
shot hit And because everybody's got a phone, this was
immediately uploaded now and see people from everywhere could see
there was a shot that hit him in the neck.
Now you see everybody scrambling at first. Well that didn't
(08:07):
last but for a minute, because people realize, wait a minute,
I only heard one shot and then everything claim.
Speaker 4 (08:12):
Yeah, the way you got to me drinking from the
higher fire hygien. It's too much, too fast.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
I want to take every single fact as it happens.
Joining me and all Star Pound makes sense of what
we know right now. The massive manhunt is on after
two botched FBI arrests. Hold on, you know what, I
want to clarify that I wouldn't call them botched. I
would not call them botched.
Speaker 4 (08:33):
Joining me.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
Katherine Schweit, creator of the FBI's Active Shooter Program, former
Chicago prosecutor, career GBI special agent, author Stop the Killing,
How to End the mass shooting Crisis, and more.
Speaker 4 (08:47):
Catherine.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
People are saying botched FBI ras that's not correct. They
arrested persons of interest, they questioned them, and upon questioning them,
they release them. What does everybody want them to do?
Not take the persons of interest into custody?
Speaker 4 (09:06):
I mean that there, it was not botched.
Speaker 6 (09:09):
I agree with you. I mean I don't think that's
the right word. We want to be proceed with the
best and most cautious way that we can. We want
law enforcement to not let one person walk away from
that area until we are confident that person is not
the triggerman. It's very important that you take the time
to go through somebody's background, spend the time with them,
(09:31):
put them under a little pressure, see whether or not
this is the person that you need to keep.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
On listen, give me you by the sounds fan report
as one and it is though that was not our
knowing where the shooter went and as the.
Speaker 6 (09:44):
Advice giving you and orm has had an ask your
shooter at as Charlie Kirk event.
Speaker 7 (09:50):
We're getting several calls. We're trying to get more information,
so I'm not sure yet.
Speaker 8 (09:56):
We're just trying to get seeing.
Speaker 4 (09:58):
This that way.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
What you were hearing is the police scanner immediately after
the shooting, and what we are doing tonight is picking
through the clues left behind and trying to determine.
Speaker 4 (10:07):
What we know happened.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
You know, I want to go back to Dave mac
these two botched, as it's being said arrests. I agree
with Catherine Schweid to creator FBI Active Shooter program. They
were not bossed, explain exactly what happened, Dave.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
As this was an evolving story. Right off the bat.
Police actually had a man about in his mid fifties,
looks like bald head, wearing glasses, blue short pants, and
he was immediately talking to police and they actually cuffed
him and had him on the ground. So again in
this world where everything has to be published for everything,
(10:46):
people immediately said they have the shooter arrested, and they
had pictures of this guy. I think his name's George Zenn. Well,
George Zenn actually was being confrontational with police, but he's
not the shooter, and so all those pictures that were
around the world showed it innocent a man who was
not the shooter.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
As a matter of fact, the guy Zen said that
he did it. He started yelling.
Speaker 4 (11:12):
That he would do it again, but the reality is he.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
Didn't have a gun, and also in those tight quarters
with thousands of people, who knows what he was saying,
but he had to be taken into custody. At this hour,
we're learning a lot. Let's see the video of the
person on top of a roof scrambling away straight out
to former Army sharp shooter sniper CoA Lormer.
Speaker 4 (11:40):
CoA, thank you for being with us.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
I'd like you to take a look, if you can
from your monitor of what we have seen. A dark
clad figure is above the Sparks Automotive building.
Speaker 4 (11:56):
That's just one of the shots.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
We have of the And I'll just go ahead and
say him because statistically this is a man, observe CoA.
He is in dark clothing, clad all in dark. He
dressed up for the event. This was an event which
I'm going to get into with our other guests later,
that had been.
Speaker 4 (12:14):
Planned for weeks and months.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
There he is right there, there he is, and he
actually jumped off the building. Why is it significant that
we know this event had been planned for some time
because anybody following Kirk would know exactly where he was
going to be. And CoA Lorimore, he was in the
most vulnerable position at the bottom of a pit, basically
(12:43):
in a fish bowl with little security. But for your purposes, CoA,
I want you to explain to me how you can
get a shot. We've been told this is about two
hundred yards away for where Charlie Kirk was speaking.
Speaker 4 (13:02):
How do you do that?
Speaker 5 (13:03):
So, Nancy, you would want to use a high power
rifle like I have right here.
Speaker 4 (13:08):
This is a both asking rifle used for precision shooting.
Speaker 5 (13:13):
It has a high power scope to magnify your target
and keeps your target very clear. This would also be
someone that has experienced shooting or has been trained. You
take anybody off the street, they're not going to be
able to make a shot like this.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
How unusual is it for let's just say, someone of
your caliber, a sharp shooter, a sniper trained specifically to
be a sniper. How rare is it to get off
the shot two hundred yards? Is that normal for an
army sniper or is that unique for an army sniper?
Speaker 5 (13:47):
It's very normal. I think the minimum distance of our
qualifications starts at three hundred yards and goes out to
one thousand.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
That was not what I was expecting you to say.
I thought it was going to be rare. But you're saying,
for an army sniper of your caliber, a two hundred
yard shot, eh?
Speaker 4 (14:06):
Is that what you're saying? Yes? I don't like that.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
You know why I don't like that because I thought
it would be more rare for somebody to pull off
a shot like that Cole or more. But because it's
not rare that widens my pool of suspects. Do you
understand what I'm saying? Yes, CoA all right, two hundred
yard shot. Don't you have to prepare for that? I mean,
(14:32):
I to believe this is the first time this guy
climbed to the top of Sparks Automotive and laid there
and tried to get the shot. I think he had
to have gone up there before to a sniper's nest
and prepare. He had to have been up there to
see where they were putting the tent. He had to
be up there beforehand. My point is surveillance video and
(14:57):
who was on the grounds prior to the shoe could
reveal who is the shooter. Now, CO explain to me
what you have to do to prepare to pull off
a shot like that.
Speaker 5 (15:08):
Well, the shot isn't just out of luck. The shooter
obviously had prior training. He also had to conduct a
reconnaissance operation see where he was shooting right where Charlie
was going to be at. This obviously was planned. His
exit plan was also planned. So this guy didn't get lucky.
It took some very intense planning.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
Which leads me to CO, don't move Dan Murphy joining me.
Former NYPD detective sergeant Joint Terrorism task former chief security
officer at US Bank Corps, and co host of gold Shields. Dan,
thank you for being with us way in on who
is this guy tonight? A man hunt for the assassin?
(15:49):
After two arrests already, let me just say catch and
releases of suspicious persons.
Speaker 4 (15:56):
They were not deemed to be the shooter.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
At the end of questioning, there's the shooter, there's the shooter.
Speaker 4 (16:05):
What about it? Dan Murphy? Who is this guy?
Speaker 7 (16:07):
This person knows his way around the campus, and this
person absolutely went up and did reconnaissance on top of
that roof. This person also knows where the tent that
Charlie would be speaking under would be positioned, and as
a result, positioned themselves properly. I have seen in previous
cases where people have brought duffel bags filled with goods.
This rifle may have been up on that roof already
(16:28):
before he walked on campus that day. This person did
their planning.
Speaker 4 (16:32):
You know.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
It's bringing to mind Luigi Mangioni, who planned for weeks
and weeks and weeks to gun down the CEO of
the healthcare industry. I want to follow up with what
Dan Murphy said. Dan, so you believe he had scoped
out pun he had scoped out the scene before he
knew where the tent was going to be. And what
were you saying about a Duffel bag In the past, I.
Speaker 7 (16:54):
Have seen duffel bags brought up and left on rooftops
under ace, trac vents, etc. So that way the day
of the incident, they can walk up there nice and easy, unnoticed.
They're not carrying a bag. In other words, it's completely staged.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
Nancy, so everything would have been there. Hold on, I
think I hear Catherine Schweit jumping in.
Speaker 6 (17:13):
Go ahead, Catherine, you know, I just wanted to add
concurring with what Dan just said. You know, when the
individual shot at the President Trump in Pennsylvania, he was
a reconnaissance on the site three.
Speaker 4 (17:25):
Times the day of.
Speaker 6 (17:27):
Just the day of, he graveled more than a half
an hour to the site. So it's absolutely planned event,
including the reconnaissance.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
Totally agree with him and Catherine CoA. Dan, that's so important,
and this is why.
Speaker 4 (17:42):
Because he may have.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
Left a trail on the prep sessions when he was
going up there was he con on surveillance video did
he park in a parking day where he had to
go in and.
Speaker 4 (17:55):
Out where there are cameras? Who is this guy? We're
being told at this hour it is a young male.
How do they know that?
Speaker 1 (18:05):
I don't know how they know that, but that is
the thinking tonight. Back to Cole Laura Moore joining us
former army sniper who put in literally thousands of hours
to become a sharpshooter.
Speaker 4 (18:17):
You said, it's not just look but what about this?
Speaker 1 (18:20):
Would for instance, an army sniper shoot into a crowd
of civilians, You had to be.
Speaker 5 (18:27):
Very planning calculated right just to hit Charlie and not
to shoot any other armed civilians who's obviously training at
a range prior to And if you look at the
range logs, that's probably a telltale sign off who was there?
Speaker 1 (18:41):
CoA brilliant, brilliant You know how a lot of sharpshooters
have been brought down by.
Speaker 4 (18:49):
Doing just what you just.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
Said, looking at every range, even remote ones within a
twenty five mile radius to find out who has been
practiced to saying, CoA, you're dead on. You know this
guy practiced and practiced and practiced long range shooting.
Speaker 4 (19:09):
How does that work CoA.
Speaker 5 (19:10):
You practice laundry shooting by shooting different environment types, taking
the wind into account. You just have to have time
and a lot of rounds downrange.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
I'm also wondering what we know at this hour. To
Dave Matt, Crime Stories investigative reporter, what can you tell
me about the discovery of the murder weapon?
Speaker 2 (19:32):
Directly behind that building, Nancy is a parking area that's
open to everybody, and adjacent to that is a wooded area.
That's where they found the bolt action rifle in the
tree area.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
What do you mean the bolt action rifle in the
in the tree area?
Speaker 2 (19:53):
Is creating the way to say, no, it was on
the ground, But I'm starting to say that it wasn't
like on cement in a bag sitting up for everybody.
It was actually placed in an area where it wasn't
sitting out in the open, but they were able to find.
Speaker 4 (20:08):
It quickly enough.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
I say bolt action because that's what it has been described.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
As crime stores with Nancy Grace, do you co explain
what is a bolt action weapon?
Speaker 5 (20:28):
This right here, Nancy, is an example of a bolt
action weapon. This itself is the bolt action. It open
and closes, so every time you shoot, you have to
chamber another round. This is an example of one of
the rounds that the shooter could have been. This is
a three zero eight and it's one of the most
(20:48):
common rounds.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
It's just wait a minute, hold on, I've got to
look at that.
Speaker 4 (20:54):
Zoom in on him.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
That is the type of bullet that went through Charlie's neck.
That is a type of bullet that killed Charlie Kirk.
Speaker 4 (21:10):
Look at that.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
This s ob has got to be caught and put
on trial.
Speaker 4 (21:18):
What explain to me what type of ballistic is that?
What type of bullet is that? KOA, This is a
three oh eight.
Speaker 5 (21:26):
It's normally used for the army uses its takedown enemy personnel.
It's also used for hunting large game such as deer,
black bear, and wild hogs.
Speaker 7 (21:36):
So do you know how many transgender Americans have mashooters
over the last ten years?
Speaker 3 (21:41):
Too many?
Speaker 9 (21:48):
Fine?
Speaker 10 (21:49):
Okay, now by is a lot, right, I'm gonna.
Speaker 4 (21:50):
Give you any of his credit. Do you know do
you know how many mashooners there have been in America
over the last.
Speaker 5 (21:55):
Ten years, accounting or not counting gang violence.
Speaker 10 (22:05):
He reached out to his neck and blood was starting
to gutshot.
Speaker 3 (22:08):
Of his neck.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
It's about two minutes in when the shot was fired,
Charlie Kirk's neck violently snapping back after the shot rang out.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
What we believe to be the murder weapon has been
found in a would area not far from the shooting
of thirty one year old Charlie Kirk, the assassin leaving
his wife without a husband and his two young children
without a father.
Speaker 4 (22:35):
Why we also.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
Know that the bullet has been recovered, so we are
told now is the weapon left behind the weapon?
Speaker 4 (22:47):
Is it a fake? Is a red herring? We can
determine that.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
Very very easily, providing we have the bullet. Dan Murphy
joining me form my NYPD Detective Sergeant Joint Terrorism Task
Force Dan. A ballistics test is easy to run to
determine if the bullet that killed Charlie Kirk came from
that weapon or is the weapon a red herring? In
(23:15):
a nutshell, explain how that test will be done.
Speaker 7 (23:19):
These tests had done very commonly across America anytime a
weapon is recovered to determine whether or not the rounds
found that a scene of a crime can match a weapon.
This is done through the art of ballistics, which is
looking at the various ways that the bullet itself has
changed during the course of its movements up to it,
including hitting bone, et cetera. But that bullet can be
(23:40):
traced back to the boring inside a rifle, and it
can be definitively set in court. This round was fired
from this rifle or this handgun, and that's what's going
to happen in this case.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
As it works, the murder weapon will be shot. You
will sheet from the murder weapon into let's just say
a tub of water or into a mattress. As a
clean bullet hurdles down the barrel of what we believe
to be the murder weapon, the inside of the barrel
(24:12):
is unique.
Speaker 4 (24:13):
It's like a fingerprint.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
Why because as the gun was made, the metal cooled
in a certain fashion, with little dots and ridges and
imperfections on the inside of the barrel that you can't see.
And as the bullet hurdles down that barrel, it hits
up against those imperfections, leaving what we call a striation mark,
(24:39):
which is peculiar to that weapon. Only no other weapon
will create those striation marks or scratches.
Speaker 4 (24:47):
That's an easy way.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
Then you take the bullet that you just fired the
nun bullet and you compare it to the bullet found
in the scene, and you look at them under a microscope,
and you compare this striation marks on the bullet and
they will match if that's the murder weapon or did
the shooter or someone else leave a red herring. We
(25:12):
also know a foot print was found straight out to
Greg Morris, joining US high profile defense attorney from Morse's
legal author of the untested on Amazon, Greg Footprints, you
have to make a cast of the footprint to me,
(25:33):
depending on the surface on which you find the footprint.
Depending on the surface, footprints can be very very probative.
Now this is out in a wooded area. We think
it's where the footprint was found. Hey wait a minute, Morse,
what if the footprint was found where the perp jumped
(25:53):
down off the building. That would be a lot easier
to test than a footprint.
Speaker 4 (25:58):
Made on so earth.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
See what I mean, the footprint Just think of you.
Let's see, I don't know what kind of tint of
s shee you wear. Let's just say you wear Brooks, okay,
and you walk through the mud and you then walk
on your kitchen floor. The mud leaves a direct imprint
of your shoe, even telling me your shoe size, whether
(26:23):
you walk pigeon, toad, slue footed bear in on the
inside or the outside, it tells me a lot. Right,
So if they got this footprint where he jumped down,
I may get a lot. If it's on soft terrain
like around the tree in pine straw.
Speaker 4 (26:41):
Or malleable earth, not so much.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
But they're saying they got a footprint, right, What can
you do with that?
Speaker 4 (26:48):
Morse?
Speaker 11 (26:48):
Well, it's for you know, potentially circumstantial, because you have
to arrest the assassin with the shoes on that made
the footprint and link them to him.
Speaker 4 (26:57):
Nada. You can find the shoes in his car, in
his trot, in his.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
Home, abandon anything, and once I get the shoes out
of a dumpster, the DNA off of it.
Speaker 4 (27:08):
Hello, thank man.
Speaker 11 (27:09):
You're you're one hundred percent right, which also waters down
the evidentiary value of that.
Speaker 4 (27:16):
But you're right.
Speaker 11 (27:16):
They can find the sneaker in the house, they can
find it anywhere. It doesn't have to be on his feet.
But what that's going to do as the police, you know,
police are reactionary, right, They are putting this together piece
by piece, and then they'll see how that fits in
if potentially a prosecutor someone's alive, they arrest them, charge
them to see how that.
Speaker 4 (27:35):
Fits in with regard to this.
Speaker 11 (27:38):
But I think there's a bigger point here, which is
this person was dressed in all black walking around a campus.
I looked at the weather in Utah yesterday. You see
most people are in T shirts. It was in the
low eighties, high seventies. It is beyond belief to me
that a person, a human, any human on that campus
(27:59):
didn't notice this. This is so out of character.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
This guy was not walking around campus getting a diet
coke at the student union. This guy remained hidden and
he snuck to the building, went straight to the top.
For all I know, he was up there two days ago.
Speaker 4 (28:18):
I don't know how long he's been up there. He
was not disagreement Hawaiian T shirt. No, but he's walked through.
He didn't just peer out of the sky. So I
think that's you know, me through. But I doubt he
walked through dressed like a ninja.
Speaker 11 (28:31):
Well, it doesn't look like from the photos that you
know he's getting dressed up there. That's not normal.
Speaker 4 (28:37):
Maybe he did, Maybe he didn't. But you're adding facts
that don't make much sense of cases.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
And I'm wondering why right now he did not he
dressed like a ninja with a face mask on. He's
snuck up there, or he's been up there for overnight
for all I know.
Speaker 4 (29:00):
But granted, yes, he stuck out like a sore thumb.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
Ain't you just gave me another Ideatically he discarded that
face mask.
Speaker 4 (29:07):
You know there's hair in it? Right?
Speaker 1 (29:09):
If I could just get part of that get up
he's wearing, guys, In the last hours, a press release.
A press release occurred, and we learned that investigators.
Speaker 4 (29:17):
Have other evidence as well. Everybody listen.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
They have not only a foot wear impression footprint.
Speaker 4 (29:25):
But they also have a palm print.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
The evidence includes a palm print and a four arm
m print.
Speaker 4 (29:36):
Where did they get it? They? Did they get it
off the roof? Dan Murphy?
Speaker 1 (29:42):
How difficult is it to get fingerprints off the surface
of a roof? And if this shooter did what Cole
Lormore says he did, he had a sniper's nest up
there before the shooting. Did he wear gloves on those days?
Did he go up there dressed as I said in
a Hawaiian T shirt or a Utah T shirt to
(30:02):
blend in.
Speaker 4 (30:04):
I mean that is a huge, huge source of information.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
Up evince one hair, one fingerprint, anything, Dan, how do
we do it? Yep?
Speaker 7 (30:15):
Right now, you have got tons to work on in
this case. I have absolutely no doubt that this individual
will be arrested, and I think in the next forty
eight hours we'll see in arrest this person. As slick
as they think they are, they're not that slick. Everybody
screws up. If you left the forum impression, it's because
possibly up on the roof, it's a softer roof, maybe
there was a way because of the heat of the sun.
(30:36):
It'll enable that. But if you left the palm print,
that means he was not wearing gloves, provided it's his
palm print. If he's not wearing gloves, that means he
loaded the weapon without wearing gloves, which all leaves fingerprints
on rounds, on magazines, on all of it. All of
this is usable evidence. The hair, any DNA that may
come off, that is all usable evidence. This individual probably
(30:57):
from out of town. You're going to check hot tells,
You're going to check rental cars, You're going to check
vehicles parked in parking lots. You're going to check the video.
There's so many investigative avenues right now. I don't give
this person much chance to get out of this. They're
going to get caught.
Speaker 1 (31:12):
I got something more for everybody to drink in. Earlier
today we learned that investigators say the perp arrived on
campus eleven fifty two a m. But that's just today.
That does not negate Lori Moore's assertion that this sniper's
nest had been staked out before and prepared before. But
(31:34):
on the day of the shooting, he arrived at eleven.
Speaker 4 (31:37):
Fifty two a m.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
And get this, they have been able to track Gibbs
movements on the campus through stairwells to a roof to
the shooting location. So doctor Chloe Carmichael joining us or
a now psychologist and author, Chloe, this guy was lying
(32:02):
in weight. He was lying in wait since eleven fifty
two am this morning. And he didn't just show up.
He didn't just fall off the turnip truck outside that building.
He knew how to navigate the building's interior up to
the roof. He has been tracked all the way up
the stairwell into the building, up the stairwell, into the roof,
(32:25):
if he wasn't wearing gloves, if he touched that banister,
if he touched anything a door knob without.
Speaker 4 (32:31):
The gloves on, He's toast.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
Who plans something to this degree and why.
Speaker 12 (32:38):
It's eerily similar. President Trump's assassination in Butler, Pennsylvania was
from a rooftop just one hundred and thirty three yards away.
This one was from a rooftop two hundred yards away.
I would like to understand, you know, why more isn't
being done as far as security. The healthy function of
anger is to stimulate boundary setting behaviors. So why when
(33:02):
we're angry about these attacks, why aren't we enforcing our boundaries?
Why aren't we strengthening our boundaries.
Speaker 13 (33:10):
Accounting we're not coming day winess?
Speaker 5 (33:12):
Oh my god.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
Also, tonight we are learning that phrases were written on
the gun, written on the rifle and the ammunition discovered
in the woods, very very similar to phrases written on
the ammunition in the Luigi Mangioni assassination.
Speaker 4 (33:38):
Who goes to the trouble to.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
Write phrases related to cultural issues.
Speaker 4 (33:44):
On the ammo?
Speaker 1 (33:46):
We are learning among the markings initials at law enforcement
using in hopes of matching them with a suspect. Wow, okay,
Catherine Schweidt, you are the creator of the FBI's Active
Shooter program.
Speaker 4 (34:03):
What does this mean?
Speaker 6 (34:05):
I think this is very typical what we're seeing now
with some of our most scary shooters is they're wanting
to be famous, and this is the way they want
to be famous. They don't even necessarily have to have
a political bent or view. They just want to be famous.
And they see that other people have done this on
their weapons, not only in United States but worldwide, and
(34:26):
on their magazines and their ammunition to make sure that
everybody knows who they are, and they identify on those
weapons lots of things like you know, political but also
cultural controversial things, and they just want to have a voice,
and this is how they do it, a voice after
they disappear, after they die, if they commit suicide or
(34:47):
they're killed.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
What do you think about the video and what you've
learned on the FBI sac presser.
Speaker 6 (34:54):
I think what we have is, as you just heard,
we're going to be We're going to be going probably
to get this guy pretty quickly.
Speaker 4 (35:02):
I think that.
Speaker 6 (35:03):
The one thing that struck me about the press press
conference this morning is that the SEC said, we have
a good video from him getting up into getting to
the building eleven fifty two, getting up, getting on the building,
getting jumping off the building. Clearly they had full video
footage of him the whole ways, but I think that
they must have a shot where they have a face.
(35:23):
And the reason I say that is because he said,
we will release the video if we can't use technology
to identify who he is. And a it could be
that they're looking to tak to try to do a
palm print, but I think the fact that he said
that gives me the impression that we probably have possibly
a hood down someplace, a face uncovered at some place,
(35:44):
and otherwise they're going to release it and have people
hope to identifid And.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
The reality is, Catherine schwa it doesn't have to be
that day, since we know who was wearing a face
covering that day. That facial recognition video could be from
another day when he was walking through campus and heading
over there to go up those steps, or it could
be the day of the shooting before he put on
(36:08):
the master's any number of times he could have been
caught on video facially.
Speaker 6 (36:12):
Exactly they pulled this video footage, they find out the
same they pulled a feed from shooting yesterday.
Speaker 4 (36:18):
They can pull the.
Speaker 6 (36:18):
Feed from the day before and see a guy who
doesn't have his face covered running a reconnaissance. So I'm
thinking that's why they think they might be able to
use technology to figure it out.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
Straight back out to CoA lormore former Army snipers sharpshooter.
The type of weapons specifically is a thirty odd to
six caliber high powered bolt action. It's a military rifle
very popular with hunters. Several bullets, including a spent round,
(36:48):
found in the rifles chambers were recovered.
Speaker 4 (36:52):
Explained, so thirty.
Speaker 5 (36:54):
Odd six is extremely common among hunters all across the
United States, especially in those Midwest states, and leaving the
round expended round in the chamber is essentially smart because
you don't want to leave anything on the target. You
don't want to leave anything on his sniper hide site.
Speaker 4 (37:13):
What did you just say?
Speaker 1 (37:14):
You don't want to leave anything on a sniper wet
is sniper's.
Speaker 5 (37:17):
Nest you're referring to. You don't want to leave anything there.
So how he left the palm print, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (37:22):
Yeah, got you.
Speaker 1 (37:23):
The palm print could also, Gosh, I don't think it's
going to be on the weapon. I think the forearm.
How would a forearm print get on the weapon? Looks
like he's wearing long sleeves. Where would the forearm print
be found? Maybe from an earlier day when he was
up there?
Speaker 4 (37:39):
How could you leave behind a forearm print? CoA.
Speaker 5 (37:41):
The forearm print could be left behind either on the
ground or on the weapon based on how he's looks
like he's shooting, laying down, which is the most stable
shooting position for any long range shooter.
Speaker 4 (37:59):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
Two special guests joining us now doctor Kendall Crowns, chief
medical Examiner Terran County. He is the esteemed lecturer at
the Burnett School of Medicine at TCU. He's the star
of a Hitney podcast, Mayhem and the Morgue, and he
has performed literally thousands and thousands of autopsies for my
(38:28):
purposes tonight, including gunshot wound autopsies. I wanted you to
hear the type of ballistic and see the bullet type
that Cole or Moore.
Speaker 4 (38:39):
Just showed us.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
This couldn't have been instant instantaneous death a doctor Kendall
crowns because we know that Charlie Kirk grabbed I think
with his right arm, grabbed his neck when he was shot,
so he knew what was happening to him, explain to
(39:05):
us what happened.
Speaker 10 (39:06):
So in the very graphic video of him being shot,
you can see the wound coming into his neck right
around where I'm indicating, and he tips backwards right after
he's shot, and he brings his arms up. But actually
when he's bringing his arms up, he's exhibiting what we
call decordicut posturing, which means his spinal cord has been
(39:29):
severed from his brain and it's no longer communicating with
the rest of his body. So he was instantly rendered
a quadriplegic. So that movement you see is actually just
a reflexive movement by his nervous system trying to figure
out what's going on. Then you see him tipping to
the side and blood start gushing out of his wound
(39:50):
on his neck, which to me means it's an artery
that's hit more likely than not, the carotid artery and
the jugular veins, so he's hemorrhaging. Heavily out the side
of his neck as he's falling to the ground. Now,
this final cord being severed at this level could be
below C five C six, so he could still be
(40:11):
breathing and still be alive for a period of time,
which he was when he was rushed to the hospital
and die. But the damage that was done was so severe.
Even if he had survived, he probably would have had
a stroke and he would have been a quadriplegic.
Speaker 4 (40:27):
Would you ever consider making a run for the presidency?
Speaker 2 (40:33):
He knew that was devil.
Speaker 8 (40:35):
I'm thirty one years old. I got a great life,
and if they ever run out of people, I don't
even know if I would consider it. You know why
people say, are you going to run for Senate or Congress?
I'd say, listen, honestly, I think the impact we're making
is bigger than sometimes some of the US senators. I
don't know if you guys agree or not. I do.
But again, I'm not trying to be braggadocious, but I
(40:56):
can say what I want to say. We have a
very successful podcast too. Listens to the Charlie kirkshow anybody?
Speaker 3 (41:01):
I mean, it's amazing, Wow, he does and.
Speaker 8 (41:04):
Our campus tours are sweeping, are sweeping the country, billions
of yews. I got over a thousand employees. I'm the
most blessed. I have to pinch myself when I wake
up every single day that I get to be able
to do this as my job, and so I never
want to lose that. I always just want the highest
and greatest.
Speaker 4 (41:19):
Impact from Charlie Kirk insta.
Speaker 1 (41:24):
At this hour, the manhunt is on for the lone shooter,
the assassin that gunned down thirty one year old Charlie Kirk.
And there's a lot of evidence. We have what we
believe to be the murder weapon. We have AMMO with
inscriptions written on it and or the murder weapon. Prayers
(41:48):
and thoughts two and four. Charlie Kirk's widow and two children.
Speaker 4 (42:00):
Listen.
Speaker 13 (42:01):
I happen to be watching Charlie. I can't say I
saw blood. I can't say I saw him get shot.
But as soon as that shot went out, he fell.
Speaker 2 (42:10):
Back, and who was left.
Speaker 11 (42:13):
And everybody hit the deck.
Speaker 9 (42:16):
Charlie Kirk is back on the road, manning his Proved
Me Wrong table at college campuses around the country this fall.
Kirk is calling his scheduled appearances the American Comeback Tour
That Proved Me Wrong. Debates have grown from simple conversations
with a few students over a folding table to ticketed
events students and locals turn out to in the thousands.
(42:38):
Kirk's first stop this year is at Utah Valley University
in Orum, Utah.
Speaker 1 (42:43):
That first seven from our friends at Fox News. At
this hour, the manhunt goes on for the assassin that
gunned down Charlie Kirk. Don't you know that every cam
is being processed, red light cams, doorbell cams, ring cam's
surveillance video at the campus and beyond cameras at firing
(43:06):
ranges where we believe the perp practiced this as the
latest developments are that the weapon and AMMO have been found,
which should give us a clue as to who is
the shooter. What about security? I mean, I know that's
would it could have, should have at this point, but
(43:27):
practically no security at the scene for Charlie Kirk. Also,
he's at the bottom of a fishbowl, much like the
Mandalay shooter, is completely vulnerable from a shooter at an
elevated sniper's den.
Speaker 13 (43:44):
Listen, Charlie has some security in front of him, but
you got the sense that the shot came kind of
straight at him, and I don't think there would be
many vantage points too far away because he was under
in the haunting.
Speaker 9 (44:02):
Students and or locals who attended Kirk's American Comeback tour
say there was a little security and no bag checks
or metal detectors at the event. The debate between students
and Kirk was a ticketed event, but students said on
arrival campus staff was not checking them in and anyone
was allowed to come and go as they pleased.
Speaker 1 (44:23):
That first down from our friends at Fox and Friends
back to Coote Laurimore. There's no way that security directly
in front of Charlie could have protected him from a
sniper at an elevated angle.
Speaker 5 (44:36):
No, there's no way that they could have prevented this
with security just standing right in front of him. They
would have to have security a couple hundred meters out
on all the buildings in the surrounding areas. It was
just a bad combination, Kle.
Speaker 1 (44:51):
I'd like to see the bullet that you were showing
us again. Imagine that tearing through thirty one year old
Charlie Kirk's throat. Leaving behind a widow, a young widow
and two infant children. To Dan Murphy joining US former
(45:17):
NYPD Joint Terrorism Task Force, and so much more Star
Goalshields Podcast, Dan. The evidence is piling up, but this
guy could still outsmart everybody.
Speaker 7 (45:30):
Nancy, I don't think he's going to how smart to anybody.
I think he's left the trail of evidence because he
is the typical criminal in many ways. Who does that.
He's acting out of emotion. This is a well planned event,
but I don't care how well you plan it. The
typical person is going to screw up. They've left the trail.
They will be found. I have one hundred confidence and
(45:52):
arrest and the right person will be caught quickly.
Speaker 14 (45:54):
The investigation is ongoing, but I want to make it
crystal clear right now to whoever did this, we will
find you.
Speaker 1 (46:05):
If you know or think you know anything about the
identity of the assassin that took the life of thirty
one year old.
Speaker 4 (46:14):
Dad Charlie Kirk.
Speaker 1 (46:16):
Please don't try and protect someone out of a false
sense of loyalty. Don't believe that what you know is
insignificant or means nothing. It could very well be the
one clue that cracks the murder case.
Speaker 4 (46:33):
Tip line eight.
Speaker 1 (46:34):
Zero one five seventy nine fourteen hundred Repeat eight zero
one five seven nine fourteen hundred tips dot FBI dot gov.
Speaker 4 (46:49):
And of course.
Speaker 1 (46:52):
The timing of the shooting is so heartbreaking as well.
Tonight we remember the thousands who lost their lives September eleventh.
I was there that day and will never forget the pain,
(47:14):
the wake of pain left behind. On September eleventh, we
honor those the emergency workers, the military, police volunteers, those
people who put themselves in harm's way to save others
(47:36):
and for our freedom.
Speaker 4 (47:41):
And to the assassin, if you believe your bullet stopped us.
Speaker 1 (47:48):
And anyone from speaking out, you are very wrong.
Speaker 4 (47:53):
You have only empowered us.
Speaker 1 (47:58):
Nancy Grace signing off, good bye friend,
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Charlie Kirk dead at thirty
one tonight, the massive manhunt for the assassin who guns
down a father of two, two botched arrests so far.
(00:23):
I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to
thank you for being with us.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Charlie Kirk has been shot at Utah University.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
All witnesses are reporting that all they heard was a
single shot that was fired.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
He's a young man, He's thirty two years old. Charlie
Kirk was shot at a rally.
Speaker 4 (00:43):
Dear Lord in Heaven.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Kirk targeted, we believe because of his beliefs, gunned down
by a sniper, a sharpshooter, an assassin surrounded by teens
and college students.
Speaker 4 (01:07):
Why and who? Thank you for being with us?
Speaker 1 (01:13):
In the wake, the assassin leaves behind a grieving widow,
his wife, and two little children who will grow up
without daddy.
Speaker 4 (01:25):
Why? Why? Because you disagree with what he says. You
don't have to agree with what he says. This is America.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Nobody agrees with anything anybody says. Yet he got the
death penalty because you disagree. You know what Kirk would
say to people? Hey, all of you out there that
disagree with me. I want you at the front of
the line because I'm going to try to convince you you're wrong.
Speaker 4 (01:54):
I don't want you to quiet yourselves. I want you
at the front of the line. I want to hear
what you have to say. But no to you. The assassin,
he had to die again.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
I Nancy Grayson is his crime stories. I want to
thank you for being with us on this very very
dark night.
Speaker 4 (02:18):
Listen, do you know how many transgender Americans have masshooters
over the last ten years?
Speaker 3 (02:24):
Too many?
Speaker 1 (02:31):
Fine?
Speaker 4 (02:31):
Okay, now By's long right. I'm gonna give you any
of his credit.
Speaker 5 (02:34):
Do you know how many masshooters there have been in
America over the last ten years?
Speaker 4 (02:39):
Accounting or not?
Speaker 3 (02:40):
Comic gang violence.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Chaos on the Utah Valley University campus has thousands of
students and locals run from Kirk's booth screaming. Kirk's security
team rushes into action, putting pressure on Kirk's wound and
escorting him to awaiting suv to take him to the hospital.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
You saw originally is from at Beanie Johnson on X
and you can hear it's not Kirk asking about how
many transgender Americans have been mass shooters over the last
ten years. It's a student asking that question. You don't
have to agree with the student. You may violently disagree
with the student. Kirk was taken out and we will
(03:24):
find the shooter and he will face the death penalty,
mark my words. In the last hours, law enforcement has
released a facial shot of the perp. I want you
to look at it. We can learn a lot. There
he is walking. We've also got a shot more head on,
(03:46):
but look there, you go much much better.
Speaker 4 (03:50):
That is him going up the stairwell.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
He is wearing jeans, a baseball cat black in collar.
He's wearing tennis shoes and we know he's left behind
a foot impression. By the time we see him, he
looks as if he is clad all in black.
Speaker 4 (04:08):
Maid.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
This is him making his way up the steps. What
can we learn? We already knew that it was released.
He was college age. Here he is clean shaven, college
age man. Do you really think your sunglasses are going
to trick l e, the fads, the locals, the works,
(04:29):
good luck and a couple of days they're going to
know where you bought those sunglasses and what you signed
on the credit card slip what can.
Speaker 4 (04:37):
We learn about this guy?
Speaker 1 (04:38):
White, male, college age, slight in build.
Speaker 4 (04:42):
Joining me right now.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
Forensics expert and Professor of Forensics Jacksonville State University, Joseph
Scott Morgan, Joe.
Speaker 4 (04:49):
Scott, I can glean a lot. Let's see the picture again.
I want everybody to see this. There is currently a
one hundred.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
Thousand dollars reward on this guy. This guy, Okay, Joe Scott.
It looks like he drove away from mommy and Daddy's
house in the suburbs and he decided to shoot somebody dead.
Does he actually have his wallet in his front right pocket?
I see a mark on his jeans that tells me
(05:15):
that's how he usually carries it. In a moment, I'm
going to figure out what kind of tennishoes he's wearing.
But you see the American fly with a gun on it.
I'm learning so much right now. Okay, what do you see,
Joe Scott?
Speaker 3 (05:27):
Well, I see that he has unngloved hands, Nancy, and
it looks like in the other shot, it looks like
he may be making an effort to grab hold of
that rail. Guess what if you do that.
Speaker 4 (05:39):
With his forearm? Though? Look, look well, well, yeah, but.
Speaker 3 (05:42):
How do we know How do we know that he
didn't touch any of the surfaces along the way Lacart's principle,
every contact leaves a trace. You cannot be this perfect,
all right, So up there, there's going to be information
that will tie him back. I think biological information. We
already have evidence that there may in fact have been
(06:03):
a palm print left behind. You had mentioned a footprint.
And also if the reports are true and we're hearing
about this weapon that may have been recovered, this is
going to be a specific tie back to him, Nancy,
just based upon the process of purchasing one serial number
that's on here, any kind of add ons that may
(06:23):
be found on this weapon, I'm thinking, like scopes and
oh boy, the ammunition we've got from what they are saying,
we have a spent round that's still chambered. Because this
weapon is a bolt action, that means you have to
actuate the bolt itself, lift it up, pull it back,
that ejects it. This is not a semi automatic weapon,
(06:46):
and then you force another round. In Nancy, he never
ejected the round, according to what FBI sources are saying.
And there are still three other live rounds in the
internal magazine of this weapon, and all of them are
going to have little bits that are going to be
offered up relative to connectivity back to this potent, this
(07:08):
person potentially.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
Straight out to Dave Mack joining us investigated reporter crime
stories on the case from the very moment it happened.
Dave matt what happened.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
Charlie Kirk is on campus Nancy to do one of
his events where he speaks to students and talks about
all things.
Speaker 4 (07:24):
I mean, everything's on the table.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
And in the moments before you right before you see
him in the ten there, right before that, he was
actually throwing hats to the crowd. You got about three
thousand people there. He's throwing hats and talking to people.
And before he actually was going to give his speech,
he actually opened up microphones for young people to come
to the front and start and ask questions.
Speaker 4 (07:45):
It was kind of a warm up.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
And he was in the about a minute minute fifteen
seconds into actually sitting where he's right there when the
shot hit And because everybody's got a phone, this was
immediately uploaded now and see people from everywhere could see
there was a shot that hit him in the neck.
Now you see everybody scrambling at first. Well that didn't
(08:07):
last but for a minute, because people realize, wait a minute,
I only heard one shot and then everything claim.
Speaker 4 (08:12):
Yeah, the way you got to me drinking from the
higher fire hygien. It's too much, too fast.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
I want to take every single fact as it happens.
Joining me and all Star Pound makes sense of what
we know right now. The massive manhunt is on after
two botched FBI arrests. Hold on, you know what, I
want to clarify that I wouldn't call them botched. I
would not call them botched.
Speaker 4 (08:33):
Joining me.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
Katherine Schweit, creator of the FBI's Active Shooter Program, former
Chicago prosecutor, career GBI special agent, author Stop the Killing,
How to End the mass shooting Crisis, and more.
Speaker 4 (08:47):
Catherine.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
People are saying botched FBI ras that's not correct. They
arrested persons of interest, they questioned them, and upon questioning them,
they release them. What does everybody want them to do?
Not take the persons of interest into custody?
Speaker 4 (09:06):
I mean that there, it was not botched.
Speaker 6 (09:09):
I agree with you. I mean I don't think that's
the right word. We want to be proceed with the
best and most cautious way that we can. We want
law enforcement to not let one person walk away from
that area until we are confident that person is not
the triggerman. It's very important that you take the time
to go through somebody's background, spend the time with them,
(09:31):
put them under a little pressure, see whether or not
this is the person that you need to keep.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
On listen, give me you by the sounds fan report
as one and it is though that was not our
knowing where the shooter went and as the.
Speaker 6 (09:44):
Advice giving you and orm has had an ask your
shooter at as Charlie Kirk event.
Speaker 7 (09:50):
We're getting several calls. We're trying to get more information,
so I'm not sure yet.
Speaker 8 (09:56):
We're just trying to get seeing.
Speaker 4 (09:58):
This that way.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
What you were hearing is the police scanner immediately after
the shooting, and what we are doing tonight is picking
through the clues left behind and trying to determine.
Speaker 4 (10:07):
What we know happened.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
You know, I want to go back to Dave mac
these two botched, as it's being said arrests. I agree
with Catherine Schweid to creator FBI Active Shooter program. They
were not bossed, explain exactly what happened, Dave.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
As this was an evolving story. Right off the bat.
Police actually had a man about in his mid fifties,
looks like bald head, wearing glasses, blue short pants, and
he was immediately talking to police and they actually cuffed
him and had him on the ground. So again in
this world where everything has to be published for everything,
(10:46):
people immediately said they have the shooter arrested, and they
had pictures of this guy. I think his name's George Zenn. Well,
George Zenn actually was being confrontational with police, but he's
not the shooter, and so all those pictures that were
around the world showed it innocent a man who was
not the shooter.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
As a matter of fact, the guy Zen said that
he did it. He started yelling.
Speaker 4 (11:12):
That he would do it again, but the reality is he.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
Didn't have a gun, and also in those tight quarters
with thousands of people, who knows what he was saying,
but he had to be taken into custody. At this hour,
we're learning a lot. Let's see the video of the
person on top of a roof scrambling away straight out
to former Army sharp shooter sniper CoA Lormer.
Speaker 4 (11:40):
CoA, thank you for being with us.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
I'd like you to take a look, if you can
from your monitor of what we have seen. A dark
clad figure is above the Sparks Automotive building.
Speaker 4 (11:56):
That's just one of the shots.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
We have of the And I'll just go ahead and
say him because statistically this is a man, observe CoA.
He is in dark clothing, clad all in dark. He
dressed up for the event. This was an event which
I'm going to get into with our other guests later,
that had been.
Speaker 4 (12:14):
Planned for weeks and months.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
There he is right there, there he is, and he
actually jumped off the building. Why is it significant that
we know this event had been planned for some time
because anybody following Kirk would know exactly where he was
going to be. And CoA Lorimore, he was in the
most vulnerable position at the bottom of a pit, basically
(12:43):
in a fish bowl with little security. But for your purposes, CoA,
I want you to explain to me how you can
get a shot. We've been told this is about two
hundred yards away for where Charlie Kirk was speaking.
Speaker 4 (13:02):
How do you do that?
Speaker 5 (13:03):
So, Nancy, you would want to use a high power
rifle like I have right here.
Speaker 4 (13:08):
This is a both asking rifle used for precision shooting.
Speaker 5 (13:13):
It has a high power scope to magnify your target
and keeps your target very clear. This would also be
someone that has experienced shooting or has been trained. You
take anybody off the street, they're not going to be
able to make a shot like this.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
How unusual is it for let's just say, someone of
your caliber, a sharp shooter, a sniper trained specifically to
be a sniper. How rare is it to get off
the shot two hundred yards? Is that normal for an
army sniper or is that unique for an army sniper?
Speaker 5 (13:47):
It's very normal. I think the minimum distance of our
qualifications starts at three hundred yards and goes out to
one thousand.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
That was not what I was expecting you to say.
I thought it was going to be rare. But you're saying,
for an army sniper of your caliber, a two hundred
yard shot, eh?
Speaker 4 (14:06):
Is that what you're saying? Yes? I don't like that.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
You know why I don't like that because I thought
it would be more rare for somebody to pull off
a shot like that Cole or more. But because it's
not rare that widens my pool of suspects. Do you
understand what I'm saying? Yes, CoA all right, two hundred
yard shot. Don't you have to prepare for that? I mean,
(14:32):
I to believe this is the first time this guy
climbed to the top of Sparks Automotive and laid there
and tried to get the shot. I think he had
to have gone up there before to a sniper's nest
and prepare. He had to have been up there to
see where they were putting the tent. He had to
be up there beforehand. My point is surveillance video and
(14:57):
who was on the grounds prior to the shoe could
reveal who is the shooter. Now, CO explain to me
what you have to do to prepare to pull off
a shot like that.
Speaker 5 (15:08):
Well, the shot isn't just out of luck. The shooter
obviously had prior training. He also had to conduct a
reconnaissance operation see where he was shooting right where Charlie
was going to be at. This obviously was planned. His
exit plan was also planned. So this guy didn't get lucky.
It took some very intense planning.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
Which leads me to CO, don't move Dan Murphy joining me.
Former NYPD detective sergeant Joint Terrorism task former chief security
officer at US Bank Corps, and co host of gold Shields. Dan,
thank you for being with us way in on who
is this guy tonight? A man hunt for the assassin?
(15:49):
After two arrests already, let me just say catch and
releases of suspicious persons.
Speaker 4 (15:56):
They were not deemed to be the shooter.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
At the end of questioning, there's the shooter, there's the shooter.
Speaker 4 (16:05):
What about it? Dan Murphy? Who is this guy?
Speaker 7 (16:07):
This person knows his way around the campus, and this
person absolutely went up and did reconnaissance on top of
that roof. This person also knows where the tent that
Charlie would be speaking under would be positioned, and as
a result, positioned themselves properly. I have seen in previous
cases where people have brought duffel bags filled with goods.
This rifle may have been up on that roof already
(16:28):
before he walked on campus that day. This person did
their planning.
Speaker 4 (16:32):
You know.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
It's bringing to mind Luigi Mangioni, who planned for weeks
and weeks and weeks to gun down the CEO of
the healthcare industry. I want to follow up with what
Dan Murphy said. Dan, so you believe he had scoped
out pun he had scoped out the scene before he
knew where the tent was going to be. And what
were you saying about a Duffel bag In the past, I.
Speaker 7 (16:54):
Have seen duffel bags brought up and left on rooftops
under ace, trac vents, etc. So that way the day
of the incident, they can walk up there nice and easy, unnoticed.
They're not carrying a bag. In other words, it's completely staged.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
Nancy, so everything would have been there. Hold on, I
think I hear Catherine Schweit jumping in.
Speaker 6 (17:13):
Go ahead, Catherine, you know, I just wanted to add
concurring with what Dan just said. You know, when the
individual shot at the President Trump in Pennsylvania, he was
a reconnaissance on the site three.
Speaker 4 (17:25):
Times the day of.
Speaker 6 (17:27):
Just the day of, he graveled more than a half
an hour to the site. So it's absolutely planned event,
including the reconnaissance.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
Totally agree with him and Catherine CoA. Dan, that's so important,
and this is why.
Speaker 4 (17:42):
Because he may have.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
Left a trail on the prep sessions when he was
going up there was he con on surveillance video did
he park in a parking day where he had to
go in and.
Speaker 4 (17:55):
Out where there are cameras? Who is this guy? We're
being told at this hour it is a young male.
How do they know that?
Speaker 1 (18:05):
I don't know how they know that, but that is
the thinking tonight. Back to Cole Laura Moore joining us
former army sniper who put in literally thousands of hours
to become a sharpshooter.
Speaker 4 (18:17):
You said, it's not just look but what about this?
Speaker 1 (18:20):
Would for instance, an army sniper shoot into a crowd
of civilians, You had to be.
Speaker 5 (18:27):
Very planning calculated right just to hit Charlie and not
to shoot any other armed civilians who's obviously training at
a range prior to And if you look at the
range logs, that's probably a telltale sign off who was there?
Speaker 1 (18:41):
CoA brilliant, brilliant You know how a lot of sharpshooters
have been brought down by.
Speaker 4 (18:49):
Doing just what you just.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
Said, looking at every range, even remote ones within a
twenty five mile radius to find out who has been
practiced to saying, CoA, you're dead on. You know this
guy practiced and practiced and practiced long range shooting.
Speaker 4 (19:09):
How does that work CoA.
Speaker 5 (19:10):
You practice laundry shooting by shooting different environment types, taking
the wind into account. You just have to have time
and a lot of rounds downrange.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
I'm also wondering what we know at this hour. To
Dave Matt, Crime Stories investigative reporter, what can you tell
me about the discovery of the murder weapon?
Speaker 2 (19:32):
Directly behind that building, Nancy is a parking area that's
open to everybody, and adjacent to that is a wooded area.
That's where they found the bolt action rifle in the
tree area.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
What do you mean the bolt action rifle in the
in the tree area?
Speaker 2 (19:53):
Is creating the way to say, no, it was on
the ground, But I'm starting to say that it wasn't
like on cement in a bag sitting up for everybody.
It was actually placed in an area where it wasn't
sitting out in the open, but they were able to find.
Speaker 4 (20:08):
It quickly enough.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
I say bolt action because that's what it has been described.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
As crime stores with Nancy Grace, do you co explain
what is a bolt action weapon?
Speaker 5 (20:28):
This right here, Nancy, is an example of a bolt
action weapon. This itself is the bolt action. It open
and closes, so every time you shoot, you have to
chamber another round. This is an example of one of
the rounds that the shooter could have been. This is
a three zero eight and it's one of the most
(20:48):
common rounds.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
It's just wait a minute, hold on, I've got to
look at that.
Speaker 4 (20:54):
Zoom in on him.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
That is the type of bullet that went through Charlie's neck.
That is a type of bullet that killed Charlie Kirk.
Speaker 4 (21:10):
Look at that.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
This s ob has got to be caught and put
on trial.
Speaker 4 (21:18):
What explain to me what type of ballistic is that?
What type of bullet is that? KOA, This is a
three oh eight.
Speaker 5 (21:26):
It's normally used for the army uses its takedown enemy personnel.
It's also used for hunting large game such as deer,
black bear, and wild hogs.
Speaker 7 (21:36):
So do you know how many transgender Americans have mashooters
over the last ten years?
Speaker 3 (21:41):
Too many?
Speaker 9 (21:48):
Fine?
Speaker 10 (21:49):
Okay, now by is a lot, right, I'm gonna.
Speaker 4 (21:50):
Give you any of his credit. Do you know do
you know how many mashooners there have been in America
over the last.
Speaker 5 (21:55):
Ten years, accounting or not counting gang violence.
Speaker 10 (22:05):
He reached out to his neck and blood was starting
to gutshot.
Speaker 3 (22:08):
Of his neck.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
It's about two minutes in when the shot was fired,
Charlie Kirk's neck violently snapping back after the shot rang out.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
What we believe to be the murder weapon has been
found in a would area not far from the shooting
of thirty one year old Charlie Kirk, the assassin leaving
his wife without a husband and his two young children
without a father.
Speaker 4 (22:35):
Why we also.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
Know that the bullet has been recovered, so we are
told now is the weapon left behind the weapon?
Speaker 4 (22:47):
Is it a fake? Is a red herring? We can
determine that.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
Very very easily, providing we have the bullet. Dan Murphy
joining me form my NYPD Detective Sergeant Joint Terrorism Task
Force Dan. A ballistics test is easy to run to
determine if the bullet that killed Charlie Kirk came from
that weapon or is the weapon a red herring? In
(23:15):
a nutshell, explain how that test will be done.
Speaker 7 (23:19):
These tests had done very commonly across America anytime a
weapon is recovered to determine whether or not the rounds
found that a scene of a crime can match a weapon.
This is done through the art of ballistics, which is
looking at the various ways that the bullet itself has
changed during the course of its movements up to it,
including hitting bone, et cetera. But that bullet can be
(23:40):
traced back to the boring inside a rifle, and it
can be definitively set in court. This round was fired
from this rifle or this handgun, and that's what's going
to happen in this case.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
As it works, the murder weapon will be shot. You
will sheet from the murder weapon into let's just say
a tub of water or into a mattress. As a
clean bullet hurdles down the barrel of what we believe
to be the murder weapon, the inside of the barrel
(24:12):
is unique.
Speaker 4 (24:13):
It's like a fingerprint.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
Why because as the gun was made, the metal cooled
in a certain fashion, with little dots and ridges and
imperfections on the inside of the barrel that you can't see.
And as the bullet hurdles down that barrel, it hits
up against those imperfections, leaving what we call a striation mark,
(24:39):
which is peculiar to that weapon. Only no other weapon
will create those striation marks or scratches.
Speaker 4 (24:47):
That's an easy way.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
Then you take the bullet that you just fired the
nun bullet and you compare it to the bullet found
in the scene, and you look at them under a microscope,
and you compare this striation marks on the bullet and
they will match if that's the murder weapon or did
the shooter or someone else leave a red herring. We
(25:12):
also know a foot print was found straight out to
Greg Morris, joining US high profile defense attorney from Morse's
legal author of the untested on Amazon, Greg Footprints, you
have to make a cast of the footprint to me,
(25:33):
depending on the surface on which you find the footprint.
Depending on the surface, footprints can be very very probative.
Now this is out in a wooded area. We think
it's where the footprint was found. Hey wait a minute, Morse,
what if the footprint was found where the perp jumped
(25:53):
down off the building. That would be a lot easier
to test than a footprint.
Speaker 4 (25:58):
Made on so earth.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
See what I mean, the footprint Just think of you.
Let's see, I don't know what kind of tint of
s shee you wear. Let's just say you wear Brooks, okay,
and you walk through the mud and you then walk
on your kitchen floor. The mud leaves a direct imprint
of your shoe, even telling me your shoe size, whether
(26:23):
you walk pigeon, toad, slue footed bear in on the
inside or the outside, it tells me a lot. Right,
So if they got this footprint where he jumped down,
I may get a lot. If it's on soft terrain
like around the tree in pine straw.
Speaker 4 (26:41):
Or malleable earth, not so much.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
But they're saying they got a footprint, right, What can
you do with that?
Speaker 4 (26:48):
Morse?
Speaker 11 (26:48):
Well, it's for you know, potentially circumstantial, because you have
to arrest the assassin with the shoes on that made
the footprint and link them to him.
Speaker 4 (26:57):
Nada. You can find the shoes in his car, in
his trot, in his.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
Home, abandon anything, and once I get the shoes out
of a dumpster, the DNA off of it.
Speaker 4 (27:08):
Hello, thank man.
Speaker 11 (27:09):
You're you're one hundred percent right, which also waters down
the evidentiary value of that.
Speaker 4 (27:16):
But you're right.
Speaker 11 (27:16):
They can find the sneaker in the house, they can
find it anywhere. It doesn't have to be on his feet.
But what that's going to do as the police, you know,
police are reactionary, right, They are putting this together piece
by piece, and then they'll see how that fits in
if potentially a prosecutor someone's alive, they arrest them, charge
them to see how that.
Speaker 4 (27:35):
Fits in with regard to this.
Speaker 11 (27:38):
But I think there's a bigger point here, which is
this person was dressed in all black walking around a campus.
I looked at the weather in Utah yesterday. You see
most people are in T shirts. It was in the
low eighties, high seventies. It is beyond belief to me
that a person, a human, any human on that campus
(27:59):
didn't notice this. This is so out of character.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
This guy was not walking around campus getting a diet
coke at the student union. This guy remained hidden and
he snuck to the building, went straight to the top.
For all I know, he was up there two days ago.
Speaker 4 (28:18):
I don't know how long he's been up there. He
was not disagreement Hawaiian T shirt. No, but he's walked through.
He didn't just peer out of the sky. So I
think that's you know, me through. But I doubt he
walked through dressed like a ninja.
Speaker 11 (28:31):
Well, it doesn't look like from the photos that you
know he's getting dressed up there. That's not normal.
Speaker 4 (28:37):
Maybe he did, Maybe he didn't. But you're adding facts
that don't make much sense of cases.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
And I'm wondering why right now he did not he
dressed like a ninja with a face mask on. He's
snuck up there, or he's been up there for overnight
for all I know.
Speaker 4 (29:00):
But granted, yes, he stuck out like a sore thumb.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
Ain't you just gave me another Ideatically he discarded that
face mask.
Speaker 4 (29:07):
You know there's hair in it? Right?
Speaker 1 (29:09):
If I could just get part of that get up
he's wearing, guys, In the last hours, a press release.
A press release occurred, and we learned that investigators.
Speaker 4 (29:17):
Have other evidence as well. Everybody listen.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
They have not only a foot wear impression footprint.
Speaker 4 (29:25):
But they also have a palm print.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
The evidence includes a palm print and a four arm
m print.
Speaker 4 (29:36):
Where did they get it? They? Did they get it
off the roof? Dan Murphy?
Speaker 1 (29:42):
How difficult is it to get fingerprints off the surface
of a roof? And if this shooter did what Cole
Lormore says he did, he had a sniper's nest up
there before the shooting. Did he wear gloves on those days?
Did he go up there dressed as I said in
a Hawaiian T shirt or a Utah T shirt to
(30:02):
blend in.
Speaker 4 (30:04):
I mean that is a huge, huge source of information.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
Up evince one hair, one fingerprint, anything, Dan, how do
we do it? Yep?
Speaker 7 (30:15):
Right now, you have got tons to work on in
this case. I have absolutely no doubt that this individual
will be arrested, and I think in the next forty
eight hours we'll see in arrest this person. As slick
as they think they are, they're not that slick. Everybody
screws up. If you left the forum impression, it's because
possibly up on the roof, it's a softer roof, maybe
there was a way because of the heat of the sun.
(30:36):
It'll enable that. But if you left the palm print,
that means he was not wearing gloves, provided it's his
palm print. If he's not wearing gloves, that means he
loaded the weapon without wearing gloves, which all leaves fingerprints
on rounds, on magazines, on all of it. All of
this is usable evidence. The hair, any DNA that may
come off, that is all usable evidence. This individual probably
(30:57):
from out of town. You're going to check hot tells,
You're going to check rental cars, You're going to check
vehicles parked in parking lots. You're going to check the video.
There's so many investigative avenues right now. I don't give
this person much chance to get out of this. They're
going to get caught.
Speaker 1 (31:12):
I got something more for everybody to drink in. Earlier
today we learned that investigators say the perp arrived on
campus eleven fifty two a m. But that's just today.
That does not negate Lori Moore's assertion that this sniper's
nest had been staked out before and prepared before. But
(31:34):
on the day of the shooting, he arrived at eleven.
Speaker 4 (31:37):
Fifty two a m.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
And get this, they have been able to track Gibbs
movements on the campus through stairwells to a roof to
the shooting location. So doctor Chloe Carmichael joining us or
a now psychologist and author, Chloe, this guy was lying
(32:02):
in weight. He was lying in wait since eleven fifty
two am this morning. And he didn't just show up.
He didn't just fall off the turnip truck outside that building.
He knew how to navigate the building's interior up to
the roof. He has been tracked all the way up
the stairwell into the building, up the stairwell, into the roof,
(32:25):
if he wasn't wearing gloves, if he touched that banister,
if he touched anything a door knob without.
Speaker 4 (32:31):
The gloves on, He's toast.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
Who plans something to this degree and why.
Speaker 12 (32:38):
It's eerily similar. President Trump's assassination in Butler, Pennsylvania was
from a rooftop just one hundred and thirty three yards away.
This one was from a rooftop two hundred yards away.
I would like to understand, you know, why more isn't
being done as far as security. The healthy function of
anger is to stimulate boundary setting behaviors. So why when
(33:02):
we're angry about these attacks, why aren't we enforcing our boundaries?
Why aren't we strengthening our boundaries.
Speaker 13 (33:10):
Accounting we're not coming day winess?
Speaker 5 (33:12):
Oh my god.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
Also, tonight we are learning that phrases were written on
the gun, written on the rifle and the ammunition discovered
in the woods, very very similar to phrases written on
the ammunition in the Luigi Mangioni assassination.
Speaker 4 (33:38):
Who goes to the trouble to.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
Write phrases related to cultural issues.
Speaker 4 (33:44):
On the ammo?
Speaker 1 (33:46):
We are learning among the markings initials at law enforcement
using in hopes of matching them with a suspect. Wow, okay,
Catherine Schweidt, you are the creator of the FBI's Active
Shooter program.
Speaker 4 (34:03):
What does this mean?
Speaker 6 (34:05):
I think this is very typical what we're seeing now
with some of our most scary shooters is they're wanting
to be famous, and this is the way they want
to be famous. They don't even necessarily have to have
a political bent or view. They just want to be famous.
And they see that other people have done this on
their weapons, not only in United States but worldwide, and
(34:26):
on their magazines and their ammunition to make sure that
everybody knows who they are, and they identify on those
weapons lots of things like you know, political but also
cultural controversial things, and they just want to have a voice,
and this is how they do it, a voice after
they disappear, after they die, if they commit suicide or
(34:47):
they're killed.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
What do you think about the video and what you've
learned on the FBI sac presser.
Speaker 6 (34:54):
I think what we have is, as you just heard,
we're going to be We're going to be going probably
to get this guy pretty quickly.
Speaker 4 (35:02):
I think that.
Speaker 6 (35:03):
The one thing that struck me about the press press
conference this morning is that the SEC said, we have
a good video from him getting up into getting to
the building eleven fifty two, getting up, getting on the building,
getting jumping off the building. Clearly they had full video
footage of him the whole ways, but I think that
they must have a shot where they have a face.
(35:23):
And the reason I say that is because he said,
we will release the video if we can't use technology
to identify who he is. And a it could be
that they're looking to tak to try to do a
palm print, but I think the fact that he said
that gives me the impression that we probably have possibly
a hood down someplace, a face uncovered at some place,
(35:44):
and otherwise they're going to release it and have people
hope to identifid And.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
The reality is, Catherine schwa it doesn't have to be
that day, since we know who was wearing a face
covering that day. That facial recognition video could be from
another day when he was walking through campus and heading
over there to go up those steps, or it could
be the day of the shooting before he put on
(36:08):
the master's any number of times he could have been
caught on video facially.
Speaker 6 (36:12):
Exactly they pulled this video footage, they find out the
same they pulled a feed from shooting yesterday.
Speaker 4 (36:18):
They can pull the.
Speaker 6 (36:18):
Feed from the day before and see a guy who
doesn't have his face covered running a reconnaissance. So I'm
thinking that's why they think they might be able to
use technology to figure it out.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
Straight back out to CoA lormore former Army snipers sharpshooter.
The type of weapons specifically is a thirty odd to
six caliber high powered bolt action. It's a military rifle
very popular with hunters. Several bullets, including a spent round,
(36:48):
found in the rifles chambers were recovered.
Speaker 4 (36:52):
Explained, so thirty.
Speaker 5 (36:54):
Odd six is extremely common among hunters all across the
United States, especially in those Midwest states, and leaving the
round expended round in the chamber is essentially smart because
you don't want to leave anything on the target. You
don't want to leave anything on his sniper hide site.
Speaker 4 (37:13):
What did you just say?
Speaker 1 (37:14):
You don't want to leave anything on a sniper wet
is sniper's.
Speaker 5 (37:17):
Nest you're referring to. You don't want to leave anything there.
So how he left the palm print, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (37:22):
Yeah, got you.
Speaker 1 (37:23):
The palm print could also, Gosh, I don't think it's
going to be on the weapon. I think the forearm.
How would a forearm print get on the weapon? Looks
like he's wearing long sleeves. Where would the forearm print
be found? Maybe from an earlier day when he was
up there?
Speaker 4 (37:39):
How could you leave behind a forearm print? CoA.
Speaker 5 (37:41):
The forearm print could be left behind either on the
ground or on the weapon based on how he's looks
like he's shooting, laying down, which is the most stable
shooting position for any long range shooter.
Speaker 4 (37:59):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
Two special guests joining us now doctor Kendall Crowns, chief
medical Examiner Terran County. He is the esteemed lecturer at
the Burnett School of Medicine at TCU. He's the star
of a Hitney podcast, Mayhem and the Morgue, and he
has performed literally thousands and thousands of autopsies for my
(38:28):
purposes tonight, including gunshot wound autopsies. I wanted you to
hear the type of ballistic and see the bullet type
that Cole or Moore.
Speaker 4 (38:39):
Just showed us.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
This couldn't have been instant instantaneous death a doctor Kendall
crowns because we know that Charlie Kirk grabbed I think
with his right arm, grabbed his neck when he was shot,
so he knew what was happening to him, explain to
(39:05):
us what happened.
Speaker 10 (39:06):
So in the very graphic video of him being shot,
you can see the wound coming into his neck right
around where I'm indicating, and he tips backwards right after
he's shot, and he brings his arms up. But actually
when he's bringing his arms up, he's exhibiting what we
call decordicut posturing, which means his spinal cord has been
(39:29):
severed from his brain and it's no longer communicating with
the rest of his body. So he was instantly rendered
a quadriplegic. So that movement you see is actually just
a reflexive movement by his nervous system trying to figure
out what's going on. Then you see him tipping to
the side and blood start gushing out of his wound
(39:50):
on his neck, which to me means it's an artery
that's hit more likely than not, the carotid artery and
the jugular veins, so he's hemorrhaging. Heavily out the side
of his neck as he's falling to the ground. Now,
this final cord being severed at this level could be
below C five C six, so he could still be
(40:11):
breathing and still be alive for a period of time,
which he was when he was rushed to the hospital
and die. But the damage that was done was so severe.
Even if he had survived, he probably would have had
a stroke and he would have been a quadriplegic.
Speaker 4 (40:27):
Would you ever consider making a run for the presidency?
Speaker 2 (40:33):
He knew that was devil.
Speaker 8 (40:35):
I'm thirty one years old. I got a great life,
and if they ever run out of people, I don't
even know if I would consider it. You know why
people say, are you going to run for Senate or Congress?
I'd say, listen, honestly, I think the impact we're making
is bigger than sometimes some of the US senators. I
don't know if you guys agree or not. I do.
But again, I'm not trying to be braggadocious, but I
(40:56):
can say what I want to say. We have a
very successful podcast too. Listens to the Charlie kirkshow anybody?
Speaker 3 (41:01):
I mean, it's amazing, Wow, he does and.
Speaker 8 (41:04):
Our campus tours are sweeping, are sweeping the country, billions
of yews. I got over a thousand employees. I'm the
most blessed. I have to pinch myself when I wake
up every single day that I get to be able
to do this as my job, and so I never
want to lose that. I always just want the highest
and greatest.
Speaker 4 (41:19):
Impact from Charlie Kirk insta.
Speaker 1 (41:24):
At this hour, the manhunt is on for the lone shooter,
the assassin that gunned down thirty one year old Charlie Kirk.
And there's a lot of evidence. We have what we
believe to be the murder weapon. We have AMMO with
inscriptions written on it and or the murder weapon. Prayers
(41:48):
and thoughts two and four. Charlie Kirk's widow and two children.
Speaker 4 (42:00):
Listen.
Speaker 13 (42:01):
I happen to be watching Charlie. I can't say I
saw blood. I can't say I saw him get shot.
But as soon as that shot went out, he fell.
Speaker 2 (42:10):
Back, and who was left.
Speaker 11 (42:13):
And everybody hit the deck.
Speaker 9 (42:16):
Charlie Kirk is back on the road, manning his Proved
Me Wrong table at college campuses around the country this fall.
Kirk is calling his scheduled appearances the American Comeback Tour
That Proved Me Wrong. Debates have grown from simple conversations
with a few students over a folding table to ticketed
events students and locals turn out to in the thousands.
(42:38):
Kirk's first stop this year is at Utah Valley University
in Orum, Utah.
Speaker 1 (42:43):
That first seven from our friends at Fox News. At
this hour, the manhunt goes on for the assassin that
gunned down Charlie Kirk. Don't you know that every cam
is being processed, red light cams, doorbell cams, ring cam's
surveillance video at the campus and beyond cameras at firing
(43:06):
ranges where we believe the perp practiced this as the
latest developments are that the weapon and AMMO have been found,
which should give us a clue as to who is
the shooter. What about security? I mean, I know that's
would it could have, should have at this point, but
(43:27):
practically no security at the scene for Charlie Kirk. Also,
he's at the bottom of a fishbowl, much like the
Mandalay shooter, is completely vulnerable from a shooter at an
elevated sniper's den.
Speaker 13 (43:44):
Listen, Charlie has some security in front of him, but
you got the sense that the shot came kind of
straight at him, and I don't think there would be
many vantage points too far away because he was under
in the haunting.
Speaker 9 (44:02):
Students and or locals who attended Kirk's American Comeback tour
say there was a little security and no bag checks
or metal detectors at the event. The debate between students
and Kirk was a ticketed event, but students said on
arrival campus staff was not checking them in and anyone
was allowed to come and go as they pleased.
Speaker 1 (44:23):
That first down from our friends at Fox and Friends
back to Coote Laurimore. There's no way that security directly
in front of Charlie could have protected him from a
sniper at an elevated angle.
Speaker 5 (44:36):
No, there's no way that they could have prevented this
with security just standing right in front of him. They
would have to have security a couple hundred meters out
on all the buildings in the surrounding areas. It was
just a bad combination, Kle.
Speaker 1 (44:51):
I'd like to see the bullet that you were showing
us again. Imagine that tearing through thirty one year old
Charlie Kirk's throat. Leaving behind a widow, a young widow
and two infant children. To Dan Murphy joining US former
(45:17):
NYPD Joint Terrorism Task Force, and so much more Star
Goalshields Podcast, Dan. The evidence is piling up, but this
guy could still outsmart everybody.
Speaker 7 (45:30):
Nancy, I don't think he's going to how smart to anybody.
I think he's left the trail of evidence because he
is the typical criminal in many ways. Who does that.
He's acting out of emotion. This is a well planned event,
but I don't care how well you plan it. The
typical person is going to screw up. They've left the trail.
They will be found. I have one hundred confidence and
(45:52):
arrest and the right person will be caught quickly.
Speaker 14 (45:54):
The investigation is ongoing, but I want to make it
crystal clear right now to whoever did this, we will
find you.
Speaker 1 (46:05):
If you know or think you know anything about the
identity of the assassin that took the life of thirty
one year old.
Speaker 4 (46:14):
Dad Charlie Kirk.
Speaker 1 (46:16):
Please don't try and protect someone out of a false
sense of loyalty. Don't believe that what you know is
insignificant or means nothing. It could very well be the
one clue that cracks the murder case.
Speaker 4 (46:33):
Tip line eight.
Speaker 1 (46:34):
Zero one five seventy nine fourteen hundred Repeat eight zero
one five seven nine fourteen hundred tips dot FBI dot gov.
Speaker 4 (46:49):
And of course.
Speaker 1 (46:52):
The timing of the shooting is so heartbreaking as well.
Tonight we remember the thousands who lost their lives September eleventh.
I was there that day and will never forget the pain,
(47:14):
the wake of pain left behind. On September eleventh, we
honor those the emergency workers, the military, police volunteers, those
people who put themselves in harm's way to save others
(47:36):
and for our freedom.
Speaker 4 (47:41):
And to the assassin, if you believe your bullet stopped us.
Speaker 1 (47:48):
And anyone from speaking out, you are very wrong.
Speaker 4 (47:53):
You have only empowered us.
Speaker 1 (47:58):
Nancy Grace signing off, good bye friend,
Host
Nancy Grace
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