February 15, 2022 • 42 mins
An Indiana man accused of child exploitation and child pornography, says police told him he was the last person to communicate with one of two girls killed in Delphi, Indiana, in 2017. In a jailhouse interview with HLN, Keegan Kline says police told him that his fake “anthony_shots” social media profile was the last communication with Liberty “Libby” German, 14. Libby and her friend, Abigail Williams, 13, were found murdered near the Monon High Bridge in Delphi, in February 2017. Kline has not been charged in the Delphi case, nor named a suspect.
Joining Nancy Grace Today:
- Wendy Patrick - California prosecutor, author “Red Flags” www.wendypatrickphd.com 'Today with Dr. Wendy' on KCBQ in San Diego, Twitter: @WendyPatrickPHD
- Dr. Bethany Marshall - Psychoanalyst, www.drbethanymarshall.com, New Netflix show: 'Bling Empire' (Beverly Hills)
- Sheryl McCollum - Forensic Expert & Cold Case Investigative Research Institute Founder, ColdCaseCrimes.org, Twitter: @ColdCaseTips
- Joe Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet", Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan"
- Max Lewis - Reporter, FOX59 (Indianapolis), Twitter/Instagram: @MaxLewisTV, Facebook.com/MaxLewisTV
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, Abby and Libby, two names
I have not forgotten. Abigail Abby Williams, Liberty Libby German.
People often refer to the Delphi murders generically, but we're
(00:26):
talking about two little girls, ages thirteen and fourteen, that
lost their lives at the Delphi Bridge. Their case is
still not solved. This Valentine's Day, five years ago, their
bodies were found. All these two little girls did was
(00:47):
gopher a walk. Their families dropped them off. How could
everything go so wrong in the last hours. A bombshell
interview with one guy who allegedly was communicating with the
two little girls, or at least one of them, pretending
to be someone their age. This guy confesses that he
(01:12):
routinely communicated with underaged girls I'm talking thirteen, fourteen, fifteen,
to try to get their addresses, to try to meet
up with them, to try to get them to send
him naked photos or semi clothed photos. Yeah, he's a perv.
Is he a killer? Was he actually communicating with Libby
(01:36):
the day she's killed? That's pretty damning evidence. I Nancy Grace,
this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us
here at Fox Nation in series one eleven, The lawyer
for twenty seven year old Keegan Kleine insists his client
had nothing to do with the two murders, but is
(01:59):
there ever a coincidence a criminal law? First of all,
I want you to take a listen to a bombshell interview,
a portion from wt h R. This is him, Keegan
Klein talking from behind bars. Listen. Kline is still in
the Miami County jail on those unrelated charges, and now
(02:21):
he's talking on camera for the first time acknowledging the
Delphi investigation in a jailhouse interview with CNN. Why do
you think investigators are putting so much focus on you
right now? I have not a clue because they I
think it's because they said I was the last person
to talk to her, is what they've told me. And
(02:43):
then Klein says investigators haven't threatened any charges against him
for Abby and Libby's murders. And while he's admitted to cheating,
or rather creating the Anthony Shott's profile to get inappropriate pictures,
he says, that's where the crime ends. Where you ever
trying to meet these girls in real life that you
(03:03):
were talking to? Did you have anything to do with
the murders of Abby or Libby, not at all. And
I gave up my DNA a hair folical test. They've
done everything they wanted me to. We reached out to
State Police tonight to ask if they've collected DNA samples
from Klein and if Kline's Anthony Shott's profile was the
(03:25):
last to talk to Libby before the murders. They say
they can't confirm either statement. We're going to go back
to that interview in just for one moment, you are
hearing Keegan Klein, who is his lawyer, letting him talk
to any reporter or anybody behind bars. You were hearing
that from w THR, that got it from CNN with
(03:47):
me an all star panel to make sense of what
we know right now. Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor, host of
Today with Doctor Wendy kcb Q and author of Red
Flags on Amazon at Wendy Patrick PhD dot com. Doctor
Bethany Marshall, psychoanalens to the Stars. You can find her
at doctor Bethany Marshall dot com. Star of a hit
(04:08):
new series on Netflix, Bling Empire. Cheryl McCollum, Founder director
of the Coalcase Research Institute Years in the trenches fighting crime.
You can find her at Coalcase Crimes dot org. Joe
Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood
Beneath My Feet on Amazon, and host of a brand
(04:28):
new hit series on iHeart Bodybags with Joe Scott Morgan.
But first to Fox fifty nine reporter at Max Lewis.
You can find him on insta at Max Lewis TV.
Max Thaser being with us right now. Five years have
passed and it seems like everybody is in the dark.
The local police still have not released the full video
(04:51):
or the full sound of who we believe is the killer,
This guy, Keegan Klein. His place was searched even twenty seventeen,
a couple of weeks after the girls were a murdered,
but he wasn't arrested till twenty twenty. What's going on? Yeah,
I don't know. I think there's a lot of frustration
from you know, the entire public about because there is
(05:14):
so just we don't have a lot of information. And
Indiana State Police have been really tight lift especially in
the past couple of years. They have almost had a
complete lockdown of information. Yeah, has that really helped anything? Well,
some would say probably not, because we're still here five
years later, and the families you know who I just
talked to, you know, within the past few weeks, they
(05:36):
still don't have the answers that they're looking for and
the ones that they really desperately want, you know, to you,
Sheryl McCollum. We hear that a hair sample has been requested.
I find that really interesting because when I would want
somebody's DNA to match up to sperm or whatever fluid
or DNA I could get, I find that really interesting
(06:01):
that they specifically ask for hair. What do you think, Cheryl?
As a crime scene investor, I can tell you the
only way I would ask for that is to cross
check it with a hair that I found it the scene.
So it looks like to me, they're trying to put
him at that crime scene, you know, to dotor Bethany Marshall,
please I set up the profile. If he all but
(06:24):
admits that he's speaking to it's either Libby or Abby
that day, and I think it was Libby. He admits
by doing this setting up the profile, that he stole
this male model. Now a police officer by the way,
photo and created the Anthony underscore Shots profile to get
(06:46):
naked photos from little girls. But if you look at it,
apparently he was trying to meet up with him and
get their home addresses too. Yeah, Nancy, it wasn't just
getting photos of under each girls and over a hundred
of them. By the way, Skis was prolific in terms
of his predating on young girls. But this is just
the tip of the iceberg. What's underneath the water. Trying
(07:09):
to get their home addresses. That tells me he wanted
to stalk them. Meeting up with them, that means he
wanted to have sex with them. We don't know everything
that he communicated with them, but I would imagine he
was also trying to dominate these girls, push them into
subserviant role in his life, as we see so often
with these predators. I mean, what do they do. They
(07:31):
entice the girls online, then they start to get them
to say terrible things about their parents, They alienate for
them from the families. When the girl starts to feel
sort of both pitolated by the admiration and then guilty
for withdrawing from their parents, then the predator moves in
and he really takes charge at that point. Look, he
(07:52):
got these two little girls to go on a long
walk and to meet him somewhere. That's how much control
he had over their minds at this point. Now, according
to him, he had nothing to do with it. But
let's look at the facts. Isn't it true to you?
Max Lewis, reporter Fox fifty nine in Indianapolis that his
account Anthony Shots, which is again a fake photo. He
(08:14):
looks nothing like this guy called looks like a Justin
Bieber kind of look alike. He had photos on his
account where he's driving expensive sports cars, pretending like he's
very rich, very ripped, covered in tattoos. The account was
created just six months before Liberty and Abby were killed,
(08:37):
and we have reason to believe he was communicating with
at least one of the girls on the day that
they go missing. They're found dead the next day. And
also I find it really really disturbing that before he
would give one of his devices to police, they took
a couple of phones in an iPad. Why does he
(08:58):
need all these phones? He had one of them factory wiped,
factory wiped before handing it over. That doesn't look good, Max, No,
and you know, it's I mean, it begs a lot
of questions. You know, what was he doing? You know,
nobody has all those kind of phones. I mean when
they raided his home in the weeks after the girls
(09:21):
were murdered, you know, they carried out these bags of evidence,
including all these phones, these iPads. You know, who needs
that kind of stuff? What is that kind of stuff for?
And then you know also, yeah, not turning in a
phone that you know, I don't know if police missed
one or what happened with that, but he ended up
turning a phone in, you know, about a week after
this raid and it had been factory reset. Well, you know,
(09:43):
begs the question what was on that phone? You know,
and why field the need to factory reset that is,
there's some important evidence that was on that and you know,
we'll see if INDIANFC police can get anything off of it.
I don't know if they have crime stories with Nancy
(10:06):
Grace to you, Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics. I assume
that you don't limit your forensic knowledge to blood and sperm.
What about digital forensics? Once you do a factory wipe,
what can cops get from that? Not much? Nancy and
specifically you use the term wipe. There is a reason
(10:28):
you say that, because it's cleared out at that point
in tim. So unless there is some type of backup
that the factory did on that, I don't think that
there would be anything salvageable relative to the history on
that phone and what they can and what they can collect.
I was trying to wade through a lot of the
information that we're getting to Max Lewis joining us Fox
(10:48):
fifty nine. On some of those devices, there were several
phones and at least one iPad there. On the iPhone
five they got from this guy, he had uninstalled and
deleted Snapchat, Insta and meet me. The browser history was
(11:09):
deleted the morning of fib twenty seven, just before he
handed the phone over to police. Much of the data
from Facebook, Insta and Twitter had also been deleted. I mean, Max, please,
cole you want to go look at my phone, have
at it. You can way through all those recipes and
(11:31):
the photos of the twins. I would be mad if
you didn't. I'm not going to delete a single picture
go crazy. But why did he have to delete stuff
from Facebook, Insta, in Twitter? And how much do we
know makes Lewis Fox fifty nine that he admits, he
admits to setting up the account, he admits to speaking
(11:53):
with or making contact with these young girls. Where does
he draw the line murder? Yeah, and that's the question, right,
I mean, he used He told police when they interviewed him,
that he uses Anthony SHOT's account. All those pictures of
that good looking guy that you were talking about that
I didn't say he was good looking. Whoa hold on, Nelly?
I said it was Justin Bieber. Justin Bieber look alike. Yeah, okay,
(12:15):
well we'll go with that. So he told them that
he used this to get these nude photos of young girls.
And you know, if he's willing to do all bad,
he knows, I mean, he knows that that's wrong. If
he's willing to do that, what's to say that he's
not willing to meet up with him. I find it's
sort of hard to believe. I'm just telling him, Max,
I'm you appreciate to the choir. You are preaching to
(12:36):
the choir right now, go tell it to the unbelievers.
You just can't tell me. Cheryl McCollum, don't make me
tell my story. I would tell Gerards about mister Scorpion
and mister Frog. Okay, but I will if I have
to break it out, I will. You can't tell me
that this guy was online with a fake account looking
(12:57):
like Justin Bieber, pretending to be rich, trying to get girls,
little girls addresses, me up with them, get them to
strip down and send him new photos. Anne was talking
to Libby, I think that day or within the previous
forty eight hours, and then suddenly they go to this bridge.
(13:19):
I just jump in, Cheryl, help me out here. Nancy.
There's a little other aspect for me, and that is
that when the girls went missing and subsequently were found murdered,
he never came forward either. He never said, hey, look,
I was talking to her about two o'clock, so I
can give you a time reference of when something might
have happened after that. So he wasn't helpful or anything.
(13:42):
But do you really blame him for that? Though? Well, yeah,
I blame him, but I'm not surprised to be a
better way because if he came forward that they didn't
have to admit him mean catfishing little girls for need photos.
But it's still a factor, is all I'm saying. Because
what you also have is the police were searching his
house within eleven days. Well, that means they had probable
calls to go there, so very quickly. They had their
(14:05):
eyes on this guy for a considerable reason. And I
believe it was what was in that phone. And I
want to remind everybody we keep hearing Miami County, Miami County.
It's not in Florida. It's in Ohio. Guys, I want
you to hear more of this bombshell. Interview is from WTHR,
who got it from CNN. Listen. The Shawn's account included
(14:27):
photos of a male model. The Anthony Shawn's account included
photos of a male model, and that man had no
idea that his images were being used to catfish girls
that were underage. Clin admitted that he created that fake
online profile and then he used it to solicit inappropriate pictures.
His now in the Miami County jail, being held on
about thirty counts of child pornography unrelated to the Delphi case.
(14:51):
Clin told CNN he had nothing to do with the
murders of Abbey and Libby. He also told CNN the
Delphi investigators told him that Anthony Shots was the last
to communicate with Libby before her death, and so do
you are you aware whether you may have talked to
Libby on the thirteenth. That's what they said, and that's
(15:15):
what the police telling that you did. Yeah, and do
you have any recollection of that? Not at all? Have
you told them a hundred times? I've done everything they
wanted me to, and it's like they're just harassing me.
Klein also told CNN he's given his DNA and a
(15:37):
hair follical sample to investigators. Police have not named Cline
as a suspect in the Delphi murders. Not named as
a suspect. Let me repeat that in the murders. Now,
did you hear that, Wendy Patrick, The police are harassing me?
Wake up, man, You got at least thirty counts of
child porn. Nobody's harassing you. We are protecting little girls
(16:02):
from you. And he just blurted out for the world
to hear that. The cops tell me I communicated with
Libby the afternoon before she was dead. That night she
went for the walk on FIB thirteen. She died on
thirteen along with Abby. Your bodies are found FIB fourteen,
and he says the cops tell him they have proof
(16:25):
he was talking to one of the girls that afternoon,
and we know his MO is just trying to meet
up with these girls. Let me give this quote. I
hope you're sitting down. You may need to lay down
for this quote. I don't really know. I was just lonely,
you know what I mean, just talking to people. I
don't know why I did it, really just want to
talk to people. Will go to the gas station, for
(16:46):
Pete's sake, go get a hamburger at McDonald's and say, hi,
does somebody walking in. Don't ask the girls for nude photos.
But yet he says he is being harassed. It really
goes to show you his mindset, doesn't it. So this
is somebody that has done this for so long, I
mean hundreds of admissions of photos and solicitations, because I
(17:06):
remember the online solicitation is for offline contact. Now, of
course his defense would be yes, but not murder. But
you'll notice that his demeanor, the tenor of his voice
on that call, in that interview, seemed to suggest the
perceived normalcy of this kind of behavior, which is very problematic.
You'll also know he doesn't deny, He'll know that he
(17:27):
doesn't deny being the last person to talk to at
least one of you. Yeah, hey, wait a minute, wait
a minute, you're right. That's a really good point, Wendy Patrick.
Did he deny it or did he say I don't
remember Cheryl McCollum. He said he didn't remember talking to her.
(17:47):
That's what that correct. Every people say I don't recollect.
In other words, I'm not telling Sometimes I really do remember,
but I think I would remember that or else. Why
would he wipe all of his phone. He also said,
they say that I was the last one to talk
to them. They like it's the police's fault, as if
(18:08):
he doesn't remember. Clearly, given the two little girls are
murdered and he's in jail, he really the idea that
they're harassing him. They say I was the last one
to have contact. Not only does he externalize blame, but
there's an arrogance to his tone of voice. I don't
know if you've noticed that, as if he's being wronged
by the police in society, rather than referring to these
(18:31):
two little angels who are in the ground, saying two
girls went missing, they're dead. I'm so sorry. How are
their families. There's no remorse, no empathy towards the family members.
It's really the whole interview is very self referential. It's
all about him being wrong. Time Stories with Nancy Grace.
(19:05):
Max Lewis joining me, Fox fifty nine joining us from Indianapolis. Max,
I know you cover a varied, a wild spectrum of
breaking news. I've been putting bad guys behind bars. God
helped me for a really long time, and it's very
common for them to say this. Listen, Max. Max Lewis
(19:27):
Klein says he's not sure if the search warn't police
served him with in twenty seventeen, just about a week
or so after the girls were killed, was connected to
the Delphi murders or child exploitation and child porn. Quote.
I have no clue. I asked him, Hey, what is
this about? Well, how can he pretend he has no
(19:48):
idea what the search warn't or the arrest was about. Yeah,
I sort of call bull on all this guy's stuff,
you know, saying, oh, well that's what the police tell me.
They tell me I was in contact. No, it was
his account. He knows if he was in contact with somebody.
I mean, I guess if he was in contact with
Libby or Abbey, and you know, I guess it could
(20:10):
be maybe somebody else was using this account to contact
them or whatever. But I just think he's playing dumb
all around, you know. I mean, I think he knows
what's going on here, and maybe he realized it was
a gravity and situation now, and it's just sort of
trying to play dumb and say, well, I don't know
that this warrant, I don't know if I was in
contact with them all the stuff. But I find that
really hard to please. Well, and it's really nasty gall baron,
(20:32):
please wit. I can't believe he even asked go ahead.
He was quoted when the police went to serve the
thurchquarrant on his home. He was quoted as saying, I'm
asked as soon as they came in, I should have
knew what was up. Okay, get ready to meet me,
Fox Nation. I should have left. That's what he said.
(20:54):
Isn't that what he played that? Yes, that's exactly what
he said. You know, Cheryl McCollum, you need to give
a few opening and closing arguments because you quickly get
over your let's see, delicate personality. That you've got where
you can't say your cursework. Just so you know, I
never ever, ever curse in front of the twins ever.
(21:16):
But you have to say it like it is. You
have to tell the jury and whoever is listening or
watching right now exactly exactly what you know to be
the truth. I agree with you one hundred percent. I
didn't want to get you fine. When the cops come
to his door, he says, I should have left now.
(21:40):
Max Lewis joining me Fox fifty nine. Let me understand.
Their bodies are found, they go missing, FIB thirteen, Their
bodies are found, FIB fourteen, talking about a little thirteen
and fourteen year old girl the age of my children, John,
David and Lucy. Their bodies are found. When did he
start to lading things off of his phones? Phones? Yeah,
(22:03):
multiple phones, Max Lewis and iPad Well. I believe we
don't know exactly when that happened, but we believe it
happened after the search warrant was served, and then right
after that and the search warrant was served. Get you know,
get this with like a little more than a week
after the girls murdered, and then in between that and
(22:24):
these hidden phones that he had. Then he started deleting
the information off of that. So you know, clearly he
knew something was up. He was possibly in trouble. He said,
as you said, Nancy, I won't say it again, but
you know he knew that he was asked, and so
that's when he started to do what he needed to do.
Whether or not it's in relation to the case, I
don't know, but we'll see. Well, you know, what, where
(22:47):
are you right now, Max Lewis? I am in our
station building here, Okay? Was it snowing outside when you
went in? It was? No? Okay. So if you go
outside and you see snow on the ground and you
see a snow whout going by, could you reasonably deduct
that it snowed while you were inside talking to me? I? Okay.
(23:08):
So what I'm saying is that Joe Scott Morgan, I
don't have to have a video of what he did
to note what he did. So I agree and Libby
were killed on the thirteenth, and he suddenly starts cleaning
off all of his devices. Yeah, and just as a refresher,
(23:31):
So folks that are listening to this, remember this. This
guy's in Peru, Indiana, Nancy. And that's that's where he
was domiciled, where he lived, Nancy. Let me give you
a number three seven thirty seven miles from Delphi, Nancy,
thirty seven miles. Just keep that in mind. Here, this
(23:53):
the proximity. Here. When we work crimes like this, we
begin to think about individuals that had the potential to
commit these kinds of crimes in relative proximity. Because when
you put together a profile of somebody, you think about
who has opportunity access, you know, all of those things
that we kind of roam roam through in our minds
as investigators. And for me, that number is going to
(24:16):
stick with me when it comes to this guy. And
one more thing about these people that engage in this
kind of behavior, they never do it in a vacuum, Nancy.
They network with one another. One of the things that
they really enjoy is sharing this data and they'll either
get on a dark web nowadays or sometimes sometimes these
(24:38):
individuals will gather, if physically gather to swap images. And
I really wonder, I really wonder if there are not
others that might have privy to this information and to
images like this, you know what, I wonder if he
could be pained. This is feed for thought for everybody
on the panel. If his devices could be pained to
(25:00):
the location of the bridge the moment high bridge. I
wonder if they've done that or if they lost all
that data when the phones were when the devices were whipe.
Just let me tell you. I keep saying phones and
I stumble because we typically say phone. He had six devices, smartphones,
a tablet and iPod touch, multiple phones. What were you
(25:24):
going to say, Cheryl, that it was Wendy, I was
going to be add to I was going to add
to proximity. He also had predisposition. The predisposition was the
meeting the girls online and being willing to travel that
short thirty seven miles to meet up. But what the
argument is going to be is kind of what you thought,
what you heard him say in the interview, that that
(25:45):
was where the interest stopped. In other words, predisposition for
meeting young girls for sex doesn't then lead to murder.
That is why the demeanor in that interview I thought
was so important to look at, well, is this somebody
that can get that angry, that would be capable of
that kind of just despicable conduct. So disposition was everything
you began by saying, what kind of lawyer would let
(26:07):
a client give an interview like that. You can see
how much we're already deducing just by the words he
said in his tone of voice, I want to point
out that, hey, don't really lose doctor Bethany. Okay, listen
to this, Okay, let me verbalize this correctly. On many
of the graphic sex images he got from little girls,
(26:29):
nude photos of children, childhorn, the locations were not in
his hometown that Joe Scott was pointing to. He's thirty
seven miles away. He got images for little children from
Hammond Royal Center, also in Indiana, Bunker Hill, Galveston, Indianapolis, Cocomo, Monterey,
and Royal Center. So his m was to get photos
(26:54):
from little girls in different areas. Now would he travel
to meet Why not? It's just got pointed out, it's
thirty seven miles away. What were you saying, Bethany. Well,
Wendy was wondering, given his interview, if we could tell
if he was the kind of person who would get
angry and anger leading to homicide. But remember, there are
(27:14):
many other reasons that sex predators kill. Maybe he wouldn't
want to have been ideed by them. Remember Olibby took
a Snapchat photo of somebody who looked remarkably like Kleine,
or he could have been like a sado masochistic kind
of person or sadist excuse me, where he wanted to
inflict pain an injury in order to increase his sexual
(27:37):
excitement excitement and then maybe when that went too far
or he maamed them, or he had to dispose of
them afterwards. But if the police were able to get
a hold of the content of his Facebook, his Instagram, Twitter,
all of that, I think that they will probably have
a behavioral expert looking at what was the content of
(27:59):
the sex will chat with these underage girls? Did it
veer towards sadism? Did he ever talk about wanting to
tie them up, to harm them, to hurt them, because
that could be another reason why you can kill them
and disposed of them. Listen to this. Speaking of the images,
they were mostly children between age twelve and seventeen, adults
(28:24):
involved in sex acts with children between the ages of
three and eleven, Images of a drugs and a photo
of Climb with the black handgun. So if you are
not interested in sex with a child, why would you
(28:44):
be soliciting photos and videos of sex with a child.
You know that all saying to you, Cheryl, you know
what you think about. It's what you are, it's what
you do. I always tell the children, don't invite the
devil for tea. He may stay for supper and end
(29:07):
up camping out overnight. In your head, don't so if
he's not interested in it, why is he soliciting it?
And here's the thing that's going to go against the
argument when people say, well, he was just trying to
get photographs. No, he was asking for photographs and asking
people to meet with him. And it just might be
(29:28):
that finally somebody met him. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace,
a factory reaset that Joe Scott and I were talking
(29:50):
about earlier essentially wipes all user data. Now investigators were
able to get info on the device, including discussions about
me eating people in Vegas and prostitution. So he apparently
was willing to travel to satisfy his twisted desires. Let's
(30:11):
take a listen to more of what we are now
getting from wth R. This guy actually spoke to producers
from behind bars. Don't you know his defense lawyer is
doing a back flip hit it. Jack. Are you aware
whether you may have talked to Libby on the thirteenth.
(30:33):
That's what they said, and that's what the police told
me that you did. Yeah, and do you have any
recollection of that? Not at all? Have you told them
a hundred times I've done everything they wanted me to,
and it's like they're just harassing me. Oh back company,
harassing again, you know, to use Sheryl McCollum. I have
(30:57):
never seen a case where that's being handled this way.
It's almost as if they are titillating the public with
just a little bit of information. Not releasing more details
has not helped them at all. What's the problem, Cheryl,
I've never seen anything like this either, Nancy, as you know,
(31:20):
I mean, within that first week, we had the video
in his voice within the first week, and then it
wasn't until five months later we get the first composite,
and then two years later we get a consecutive you know,
a second composite that doesn't look anything like the first one,
and then in December of twenty twenty one, now we
(31:42):
have this Anthony underscore shots account. I mean, it's just
been this piecemeal. But you know you're getting at the
five year mark. I mean it might be time to
release a little more. Well what do you think about that?
Just Scott Morgan? Yeah, I think that that's I mean,
what a point. And I know that it's you can say,
(32:02):
what do you have to lose? You can lose the
whole case. But really, at this point in time, we've
been teased. I like the fact that you use that
term with and I'll go back to this. Do you
remember early on they said they being the authorities that
they have DNA sample? Okay, so what exactly do you
mean by that? I think that needs to be explored.
(32:24):
What's the sourcing of the DNA? And when I say that,
I'm talking about we've mentioned hair earlier. Is it semen?
Is it blood? Is it merely touched DNA? And you know,
if you have DNA, why is it that it's it's
coming up, you know, with a big fat zero at
this point in time, Why is it that you have
this evidence rich environment which I can only assume it was.
(32:49):
What's the what's the what's what's the inhibitor here? That's
that's preventing you going forward with the physical evidence? I think,
And why hasn't that happened. Has it been played into codist?
I can only assume that it would have been to
get a reference, you know, the National DNA database. And
so I'm wondering if what the nature of the DNA is,
(33:10):
if it is as substantial as we hope that it is,
or is it contaminated or compromised in some way. I
don't know. These are big questions that have to be answered. Nancy. Nancy,
I'm a layperson, and when I read this, meaning that
I've never been on a crime scene, I'm not an investigator,
I'm not a detective. And when I read that they
had held on to this much information for five years,
(33:33):
I thought bubble formed above my head. That was like,
do you really have anything substantial at all? I mean,
are you bluffing? Are you hiding? Where is the reality
of this investigation? I mean, Joe Scott Morgan just put
it so much more beautifully and eloquently. But just from
the public's perspective, it's either a tease or it's just
like an empty gesture and there's nothing behind it at all. Guys,
(33:57):
speaking of teasing the public as aimes exactly what the
Indiana State Police is are doing. Take a listen to
our c at D three. It's important that we don't
show our hand. Quite frankly and very directly, we're not
going to explain what we know about the killer. We're
not going to do that. We're not going to explain
(34:20):
some of the intricate details of the death of Abby
and Libby. Unfortunately, one day we're going to have to.
But then that's going to create a whole other issue
with family and friends in the community and the like.
So from an investigator standpoint, I'm not going to talk
any more about it. To Dr Bethany Marshall, you were
(34:42):
saying what well, I was saying that when they say
they're not going to reveal to the public, it'll have
to come out and court at some point. It could
be a tease. But Nancy, maybe they have nothing at all.
A further thought, meaning there is no evidence. Maybe they
flugged it up as Joe Scott Morgan in much better
language than I could have constructed. But here's another thought, Nancy,
(35:05):
this guy was such a prolific offender. Where are all
the other victims? Has anybody else come forward? I mean,
the families in those communities must be terrified. Don't you
think they've perhaps they've checked their daughter's social media accounts.
I would be Nancy. I gotta do this. I do
not think they're bluffing. I'll tell you what I think
(35:27):
has happened. I think at first when this went down,
they didn't know what to do with what they found
because it was so out of the realm of anything
they had ever seen. We had twenty year veterans telling us,
this is the worst scene we've ever dealt with, this
is the worst crime we've ever dealt with. And I
(35:47):
believe them. So let me go back. If you look
at the bridge, every single teenage girl, every single one,
can tell you there was a guy somewhere at a
Ballfield grocery store movie theater that made them feel weird,
that they thought was kind of a pervert, right, But
they didn't videotape them. Libby videotaped this guy because he
(36:09):
did something overtly. He did something first in order for
her to take that phone out and videotaped him from
a distance. If you look at the video, his midsection,
his belly button, for example, is headed east where he's
on the west side of the bridge. It appears to me.
He was in the middle of a turn. I believe
(36:30):
he walked past them said or did something freaked her out.
When he turned around is when she started videotaping. I
don't know what is at that scene. I don't know
if there's weird knots or drawings or cuts or burns
or something with clothing. But I do know that holding
it close to the vest is the smartest thing they
(36:52):
can do, because when they get that soob in that room,
he's going to slip up and say something that's never
been released. Yeah, I mean, you have to play it
close to the vest. I think at this point. Though.
Counterpoint to that is that when you get at a
micstand and you make a comment about we're not going
to release this information, you have to have the expectation
(37:14):
and the sophistication to understand these questions will continue to
be asked over and over and over again. We're celebrating,
Oh god, let me rephrase that, we're marking. We're marking
the fifth anniversary. We can celebrate their lives, but this
is horrible what has occurred, and this is we're five
(37:35):
years down the road right now. And when it is
stated that you have specific information you have specific investigative
data that you come up with, the public will want
to know, you know, well, why hasn't this lad somewhere?
And I think that's a valid question. Nanswy Well. I
don't believe that they need to release anything regarding the
(37:58):
mode of the death or any details of the girl's desk,
but anything that can lead to the identity of the
perpetrator is an entirely different matter. Take a listen to
our cut one anchor Juny Sue ABC seven. Nearly five
years since thirteen year old Abby Williams and fourteen year
old Libby German were murdered on this Indiana hiking trail,
(38:20):
their killers still at large, and today Indiana State Police
issuing a new warning to the culprit I resolved to
catch him. Is as strong as it was day one.
But the difference now between now and day one, as
we know about you a lot about you. Today could
be the day sleep well the girls were lasting. You're
(38:43):
this bridge. In February of twenty seventeen, authorities a Libby
recorded this image of the alleged killer on her iPhone,
along with haunting audio of his voice moments before their murder,
apparently telling them to go down the hill. If you
knew Libby, she had her phone attached her hip all
(39:05):
the time. Libby's grandparents believe the teenager knew something was
right with a man they encountered, prompting her to record him.
Something decides me to, says she was going to film
that and come home and say, look, Granfa, I'll look
at this guy who he was out there? Really weird.
How does it help to issue a statement that says
(39:26):
we know a lot about you. If you knew that much,
then why not arrest him? And today could be the day?
Sleep well? But there's been no arrest. So what's the
thinking behind that kind of statement? What about it? Wendy Patrick,
It sounds like they know a lot about the profile
(39:46):
of who committed the murders. What it seems like is
lacking as the tie between the profile they have and
the actual suspect they're going to arrest. You know, I
have even tried rape cases where you would expect there
would be DNA everywhere but there wasn't, or forensic evidence
you would expect would just be prolific at a crime scene,
but it wasn't able to be tied to a particular
(40:08):
suspect in the same way. They've released sketches that have
been very different from each other. They're not photographed, and
there are many people that folsefully look like sketches that
have been released. So they seem to be struggling with
that link. They've got the profile, they have the evidence
that they just don't have that bridge to be able
to charge, for example, the person we've been talking about
(40:30):
who's in custody for the child porn. Yeah. Yeah, it's
interesting that you're using that phraseology, Wendy Patrick. Can I
agree they may be one step away missing one piece
of evidence. And Cheryl McCollum had a great idea. If
they haven't already done it, Indiana police, I'm sure will
(40:50):
make plans to take that jailhouse interview and compare it
to the known voice of the killer where he says
down the hill, down the hill, and hopefully get a match.
Take a listen to our cut eleven where they virtually
say that this is from WNDU. By February of twenty
(41:13):
twenty one, police maintained they were just one puzzle piece
away from an arrest. It is not a cold case.
I've been adamant about that all along. It is not
a cold case, so we still receive tips by way
of email, our phone calls every day, and so new
information still pours into our investigators. Those investigators moved to
(41:34):
a new space in September of twenty twenty one where
they could continue to work on tips. As the reward
grows to three hundred and twenty five thousand dollars, and
just when the public thought they weren't going to learn
anything new about the killer, detectives are seeking information about
the person who created the Anthony Shots profile. Investigators would
like any individual who communicated me or attempted to meet
(41:57):
the Anthony Shots profile to contact law for that. Request
for help from Indiana State Police in December of twenty
twenty one seeking information about a fake online account that
went by the name of Anthony Underscore Shots the tip
line seven six five eight two two thirty five thirty
five Repeat seven six five eight two two thirty five
(42:20):
thirty five. The reward is growing now at three hundred
and twenty five thousand dollars. Nancy Grace Crumbs story signing
off Goodbye friend,
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, Abby and Libby, two names
I have not forgotten. Abigail Abby Williams, Liberty Libby German.
People often refer to the Delphi murders generically, but we're
(00:26):
talking about two little girls, ages thirteen and fourteen, that
lost their lives at the Delphi Bridge. Their case is
still not solved. This Valentine's Day, five years ago, their
bodies were found. All these two little girls did was
(00:47):
gopher a walk. Their families dropped them off. How could
everything go so wrong in the last hours. A bombshell
interview with one guy who allegedly was communicating with the
two little girls, or at least one of them, pretending
to be someone their age. This guy confesses that he
(01:12):
routinely communicated with underaged girls I'm talking thirteen, fourteen, fifteen,
to try to get their addresses, to try to meet
up with them, to try to get them to send
him naked photos or semi clothed photos. Yeah, he's a perv.
Is he a killer? Was he actually communicating with Libby
(01:36):
the day she's killed? That's pretty damning evidence. I Nancy Grace,
this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us
here at Fox Nation in series one eleven, The lawyer
for twenty seven year old Keegan Kleine insists his client
had nothing to do with the two murders, but is
(01:59):
there ever a coincidence a criminal law? First of all,
I want you to take a listen to a bombshell interview,
a portion from wt h R. This is him, Keegan
Klein talking from behind bars. Listen. Kline is still in
the Miami County jail on those unrelated charges, and now
(02:21):
he's talking on camera for the first time acknowledging the
Delphi investigation in a jailhouse interview with CNN. Why do
you think investigators are putting so much focus on you
right now? I have not a clue because they I
think it's because they said I was the last person
to talk to her, is what they've told me. And
(02:43):
then Klein says investigators haven't threatened any charges against him
for Abby and Libby's murders. And while he's admitted to cheating,
or rather creating the Anthony Shott's profile to get inappropriate pictures,
he says, that's where the crime ends. Where you ever
trying to meet these girls in real life that you
(03:03):
were talking to? Did you have anything to do with
the murders of Abby or Libby, not at all. And
I gave up my DNA a hair folical test. They've
done everything they wanted me to. We reached out to
State Police tonight to ask if they've collected DNA samples
from Klein and if Kline's Anthony Shott's profile was the
(03:25):
last to talk to Libby before the murders. They say
they can't confirm either statement. We're going to go back
to that interview in just for one moment, you are
hearing Keegan Klein, who is his lawyer, letting him talk
to any reporter or anybody behind bars. You were hearing
that from w THR, that got it from CNN with
(03:47):
me an all star panel to make sense of what
we know right now. Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor, host of
Today with Doctor Wendy kcb Q and author of Red
Flags on Amazon at Wendy Patrick PhD dot com. Doctor
Bethany Marshall, psychoanalens to the Stars. You can find her
at doctor Bethany Marshall dot com. Star of a hit
(04:08):
new series on Netflix, Bling Empire. Cheryl McCollum, Founder director
of the Coalcase Research Institute Years in the trenches fighting crime.
You can find her at Coalcase Crimes dot org. Joe
Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood
Beneath My Feet on Amazon, and host of a brand
(04:28):
new hit series on iHeart Bodybags with Joe Scott Morgan.
But first to Fox fifty nine reporter at Max Lewis.
You can find him on insta at Max Lewis TV.
Max Thaser being with us right now. Five years have
passed and it seems like everybody is in the dark.
The local police still have not released the full video
(04:51):
or the full sound of who we believe is the killer,
This guy, Keegan Klein. His place was searched even twenty seventeen,
a couple of weeks after the girls were a murdered,
but he wasn't arrested till twenty twenty. What's going on? Yeah,
I don't know. I think there's a lot of frustration
from you know, the entire public about because there is
(05:14):
so just we don't have a lot of information. And
Indiana State Police have been really tight lift especially in
the past couple of years. They have almost had a
complete lockdown of information. Yeah, has that really helped anything? Well,
some would say probably not, because we're still here five
years later, and the families you know who I just
talked to, you know, within the past few weeks, they
(05:36):
still don't have the answers that they're looking for and
the ones that they really desperately want, you know, to you,
Sheryl McCollum. We hear that a hair sample has been requested.
I find that really interesting because when I would want
somebody's DNA to match up to sperm or whatever fluid
or DNA I could get, I find that really interesting
(06:01):
that they specifically ask for hair. What do you think, Cheryl?
As a crime scene investor, I can tell you the
only way I would ask for that is to cross
check it with a hair that I found it the scene.
So it looks like to me, they're trying to put
him at that crime scene, you know, to dotor Bethany Marshall,
please I set up the profile. If he all but
(06:24):
admits that he's speaking to it's either Libby or Abby
that day, and I think it was Libby. He admits
by doing this setting up the profile, that he stole
this male model. Now a police officer by the way,
photo and created the Anthony underscore Shots profile to get
(06:46):
naked photos from little girls. But if you look at it,
apparently he was trying to meet up with him and
get their home addresses too. Yeah, Nancy, it wasn't just
getting photos of under each girls and over a hundred
of them. By the way, Skis was prolific in terms
of his predating on young girls. But this is just
the tip of the iceberg. What's underneath the water. Trying
(07:09):
to get their home addresses. That tells me he wanted
to stalk them. Meeting up with them, that means he
wanted to have sex with them. We don't know everything
that he communicated with them, but I would imagine he
was also trying to dominate these girls, push them into
subserviant role in his life, as we see so often
with these predators. I mean, what do they do. They
(07:31):
entice the girls online, then they start to get them
to say terrible things about their parents, They alienate for
them from the families. When the girl starts to feel
sort of both pitolated by the admiration and then guilty
for withdrawing from their parents, then the predator moves in
and he really takes charge at that point. Look, he
(07:52):
got these two little girls to go on a long
walk and to meet him somewhere. That's how much control
he had over their minds at this point. Now, according
to him, he had nothing to do with it. But
let's look at the facts. Isn't it true to you?
Max Lewis, reporter Fox fifty nine in Indianapolis that his
account Anthony Shots, which is again a fake photo. He
(08:14):
looks nothing like this guy called looks like a Justin
Bieber kind of look alike. He had photos on his
account where he's driving expensive sports cars, pretending like he's
very rich, very ripped, covered in tattoos. The account was
created just six months before Liberty and Abby were killed,
(08:37):
and we have reason to believe he was communicating with
at least one of the girls on the day that
they go missing. They're found dead the next day. And
also I find it really really disturbing that before he
would give one of his devices to police, they took
a couple of phones in an iPad. Why does he
(08:58):
need all these phones? He had one of them factory wiped,
factory wiped before handing it over. That doesn't look good, Max, No,
and you know, it's I mean, it begs a lot
of questions. You know, what was he doing? You know,
nobody has all those kind of phones. I mean when
they raided his home in the weeks after the girls
(09:21):
were murdered, you know, they carried out these bags of evidence,
including all these phones, these iPads. You know, who needs
that kind of stuff? What is that kind of stuff for?
And then you know also, yeah, not turning in a
phone that you know, I don't know if police missed
one or what happened with that, but he ended up
turning a phone in, you know, about a week after
this raid and it had been factory reset. Well, you know,
(09:43):
begs the question what was on that phone? You know,
and why field the need to factory reset that is,
there's some important evidence that was on that and you know,
we'll see if INDIANFC police can get anything off of it.
I don't know if they have crime stories with Nancy
(10:06):
Grace to you, Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics. I assume
that you don't limit your forensic knowledge to blood and sperm.
What about digital forensics? Once you do a factory wipe,
what can cops get from that? Not much? Nancy and
specifically you use the term wipe. There is a reason
(10:28):
you say that, because it's cleared out at that point
in tim. So unless there is some type of backup
that the factory did on that, I don't think that
there would be anything salvageable relative to the history on
that phone and what they can and what they can collect.
I was trying to wade through a lot of the
information that we're getting to Max Lewis joining us Fox
(10:48):
fifty nine. On some of those devices, there were several
phones and at least one iPad there. On the iPhone
five they got from this guy, he had uninstalled and
deleted Snapchat, Insta and meet me. The browser history was
(11:09):
deleted the morning of fib twenty seven, just before he
handed the phone over to police. Much of the data
from Facebook, Insta and Twitter had also been deleted. I mean, Max, please,
cole you want to go look at my phone, have
at it. You can way through all those recipes and
(11:31):
the photos of the twins. I would be mad if
you didn't. I'm not going to delete a single picture
go crazy. But why did he have to delete stuff
from Facebook, Insta, in Twitter? And how much do we
know makes Lewis Fox fifty nine that he admits, he
admits to setting up the account, he admits to speaking
(11:53):
with or making contact with these young girls. Where does
he draw the line murder? Yeah, and that's the question, right,
I mean, he used He told police when they interviewed him,
that he uses Anthony SHOT's account. All those pictures of
that good looking guy that you were talking about that
I didn't say he was good looking. Whoa hold on, Nelly?
I said it was Justin Bieber. Justin Bieber look alike. Yeah, okay,
(12:15):
well we'll go with that. So he told them that
he used this to get these nude photos of young girls.
And you know, if he's willing to do all bad,
he knows, I mean, he knows that that's wrong. If
he's willing to do that, what's to say that he's
not willing to meet up with him. I find it's
sort of hard to believe. I'm just telling him, Max,
I'm you appreciate to the choir. You are preaching to
(12:36):
the choir right now, go tell it to the unbelievers.
You just can't tell me. Cheryl McCollum, don't make me
tell my story. I would tell Gerards about mister Scorpion
and mister Frog. Okay, but I will if I have
to break it out, I will. You can't tell me
that this guy was online with a fake account looking
(12:57):
like Justin Bieber, pretending to be rich, trying to get girls,
little girls addresses, me up with them, get them to
strip down and send him new photos. Anne was talking
to Libby, I think that day or within the previous
forty eight hours, and then suddenly they go to this bridge.
(13:19):
I just jump in, Cheryl, help me out here. Nancy.
There's a little other aspect for me, and that is
that when the girls went missing and subsequently were found murdered,
he never came forward either. He never said, hey, look,
I was talking to her about two o'clock, so I
can give you a time reference of when something might
have happened after that. So he wasn't helpful or anything.
(13:42):
But do you really blame him for that? Though? Well, yeah,
I blame him, but I'm not surprised to be a
better way because if he came forward that they didn't
have to admit him mean catfishing little girls for need photos.
But it's still a factor, is all I'm saying. Because
what you also have is the police were searching his
house within eleven days. Well, that means they had probable
calls to go there, so very quickly. They had their
(14:05):
eyes on this guy for a considerable reason. And I
believe it was what was in that phone. And I
want to remind everybody we keep hearing Miami County, Miami County.
It's not in Florida. It's in Ohio. Guys, I want
you to hear more of this bombshell. Interview is from WTHR,
who got it from CNN. Listen. The Shawn's account included
(14:27):
photos of a male model. The Anthony Shawn's account included
photos of a male model, and that man had no
idea that his images were being used to catfish girls
that were underage. Clin admitted that he created that fake
online profile and then he used it to solicit inappropriate pictures.
His now in the Miami County jail, being held on
about thirty counts of child pornography unrelated to the Delphi case.
(14:51):
Clin told CNN he had nothing to do with the
murders of Abbey and Libby. He also told CNN the
Delphi investigators told him that Anthony Shots was the last
to communicate with Libby before her death, and so do
you are you aware whether you may have talked to
Libby on the thirteenth. That's what they said, and that's
(15:15):
what the police telling that you did. Yeah, and do
you have any recollection of that? Not at all? Have
you told them a hundred times? I've done everything they
wanted me to, and it's like they're just harassing me.
Klein also told CNN he's given his DNA and a
(15:37):
hair follical sample to investigators. Police have not named Cline
as a suspect in the Delphi murders. Not named as
a suspect. Let me repeat that in the murders. Now,
did you hear that, Wendy Patrick, The police are harassing me?
Wake up, man, You got at least thirty counts of
child porn. Nobody's harassing you. We are protecting little girls
(16:02):
from you. And he just blurted out for the world
to hear that. The cops tell me I communicated with
Libby the afternoon before she was dead. That night she
went for the walk on FIB thirteen. She died on
thirteen along with Abby. Your bodies are found FIB fourteen,
and he says the cops tell him they have proof
(16:25):
he was talking to one of the girls that afternoon,
and we know his MO is just trying to meet
up with these girls. Let me give this quote. I
hope you're sitting down. You may need to lay down
for this quote. I don't really know. I was just lonely,
you know what I mean, just talking to people. I
don't know why I did it, really just want to
talk to people. Will go to the gas station, for
(16:46):
Pete's sake, go get a hamburger at McDonald's and say, hi,
does somebody walking in. Don't ask the girls for nude photos.
But yet he says he is being harassed. It really
goes to show you his mindset, doesn't it. So this
is somebody that has done this for so long, I
mean hundreds of admissions of photos and solicitations, because I
(17:06):
remember the online solicitation is for offline contact. Now, of
course his defense would be yes, but not murder. But
you'll notice that his demeanor, the tenor of his voice
on that call, in that interview, seemed to suggest the
perceived normalcy of this kind of behavior, which is very problematic.
You'll also know he doesn't deny, He'll know that he
(17:27):
doesn't deny being the last person to talk to at
least one of you. Yeah, hey, wait a minute, wait
a minute, you're right. That's a really good point, Wendy Patrick.
Did he deny it or did he say I don't
remember Cheryl McCollum. He said he didn't remember talking to her.
(17:47):
That's what that correct. Every people say I don't recollect.
In other words, I'm not telling Sometimes I really do remember,
but I think I would remember that or else. Why
would he wipe all of his phone. He also said,
they say that I was the last one to talk
to them. They like it's the police's fault, as if
(18:08):
he doesn't remember. Clearly, given the two little girls are
murdered and he's in jail, he really the idea that
they're harassing him. They say I was the last one
to have contact. Not only does he externalize blame, but
there's an arrogance to his tone of voice. I don't
know if you've noticed that, as if he's being wronged
by the police in society, rather than referring to these
(18:31):
two little angels who are in the ground, saying two
girls went missing, they're dead. I'm so sorry. How are
their families. There's no remorse, no empathy towards the family members.
It's really the whole interview is very self referential. It's
all about him being wrong. Time Stories with Nancy Grace.
(19:05):
Max Lewis joining me, Fox fifty nine joining us from Indianapolis. Max,
I know you cover a varied, a wild spectrum of
breaking news. I've been putting bad guys behind bars. God
helped me for a really long time, and it's very
common for them to say this. Listen, Max. Max Lewis
(19:27):
Klein says he's not sure if the search warn't police
served him with in twenty seventeen, just about a week
or so after the girls were killed, was connected to
the Delphi murders or child exploitation and child porn. Quote.
I have no clue. I asked him, Hey, what is
this about? Well, how can he pretend he has no
(19:48):
idea what the search warn't or the arrest was about. Yeah,
I sort of call bull on all this guy's stuff,
you know, saying, oh, well that's what the police tell me.
They tell me I was in contact. No, it was
his account. He knows if he was in contact with somebody.
I mean, I guess if he was in contact with
Libby or Abbey, and you know, I guess it could
(20:10):
be maybe somebody else was using this account to contact
them or whatever. But I just think he's playing dumb
all around, you know. I mean, I think he knows
what's going on here, and maybe he realized it was
a gravity and situation now, and it's just sort of
trying to play dumb and say, well, I don't know
that this warrant, I don't know if I was in
contact with them all the stuff. But I find that
really hard to please. Well, and it's really nasty gall baron,
(20:32):
please wit. I can't believe he even asked go ahead.
He was quoted when the police went to serve the
thurchquarrant on his home. He was quoted as saying, I'm
asked as soon as they came in, I should have
knew what was up. Okay, get ready to meet me,
Fox Nation. I should have left. That's what he said.
(20:54):
Isn't that what he played that? Yes, that's exactly what
he said. You know, Cheryl McCollum, you need to give
a few opening and closing arguments because you quickly get
over your let's see, delicate personality. That you've got where
you can't say your cursework. Just so you know, I
never ever, ever curse in front of the twins ever.
(21:16):
But you have to say it like it is. You
have to tell the jury and whoever is listening or
watching right now exactly exactly what you know to be
the truth. I agree with you one hundred percent. I
didn't want to get you fine. When the cops come
to his door, he says, I should have left now.
(21:40):
Max Lewis joining me Fox fifty nine. Let me understand.
Their bodies are found, they go missing, FIB thirteen, Their
bodies are found, FIB fourteen, talking about a little thirteen
and fourteen year old girl the age of my children, John,
David and Lucy. Their bodies are found. When did he
start to lading things off of his phones? Phones? Yeah,
(22:03):
multiple phones, Max Lewis and iPad Well. I believe we
don't know exactly when that happened, but we believe it
happened after the search warrant was served, and then right
after that and the search warrant was served. Get you know,
get this with like a little more than a week
after the girls murdered, and then in between that and
(22:24):
these hidden phones that he had. Then he started deleting
the information off of that. So you know, clearly he
knew something was up. He was possibly in trouble. He said,
as you said, Nancy, I won't say it again, but
you know he knew that he was asked, and so
that's when he started to do what he needed to do.
Whether or not it's in relation to the case, I
don't know, but we'll see. Well, you know, what, where
(22:47):
are you right now, Max Lewis? I am in our
station building here, Okay? Was it snowing outside when you
went in? It was? No? Okay. So if you go
outside and you see snow on the ground and you
see a snow whout going by, could you reasonably deduct
that it snowed while you were inside talking to me? I? Okay.
(23:08):
So what I'm saying is that Joe Scott Morgan, I
don't have to have a video of what he did
to note what he did. So I agree and Libby
were killed on the thirteenth, and he suddenly starts cleaning
off all of his devices. Yeah, and just as a refresher,
(23:31):
So folks that are listening to this, remember this. This
guy's in Peru, Indiana, Nancy. And that's that's where he
was domiciled, where he lived, Nancy. Let me give you
a number three seven thirty seven miles from Delphi, Nancy,
thirty seven miles. Just keep that in mind. Here, this
(23:53):
the proximity. Here. When we work crimes like this, we
begin to think about individuals that had the potential to
commit these kinds of crimes in relative proximity. Because when
you put together a profile of somebody, you think about
who has opportunity access, you know, all of those things
that we kind of roam roam through in our minds
as investigators. And for me, that number is going to
(24:16):
stick with me when it comes to this guy. And
one more thing about these people that engage in this
kind of behavior, they never do it in a vacuum, Nancy.
They network with one another. One of the things that
they really enjoy is sharing this data and they'll either
get on a dark web nowadays or sometimes sometimes these
(24:38):
individuals will gather, if physically gather to swap images. And
I really wonder, I really wonder if there are not
others that might have privy to this information and to
images like this, you know what, I wonder if he
could be pained. This is feed for thought for everybody
on the panel. If his devices could be pained to
(25:00):
the location of the bridge the moment high bridge. I
wonder if they've done that or if they lost all
that data when the phones were when the devices were whipe.
Just let me tell you. I keep saying phones and
I stumble because we typically say phone. He had six devices, smartphones,
a tablet and iPod touch, multiple phones. What were you
(25:24):
going to say, Cheryl, that it was Wendy, I was
going to be add to I was going to add
to proximity. He also had predisposition. The predisposition was the
meeting the girls online and being willing to travel that
short thirty seven miles to meet up. But what the
argument is going to be is kind of what you thought,
what you heard him say in the interview, that that
(25:45):
was where the interest stopped. In other words, predisposition for
meeting young girls for sex doesn't then lead to murder.
That is why the demeanor in that interview I thought
was so important to look at, well, is this somebody
that can get that angry, that would be capable of
that kind of just despicable conduct. So disposition was everything
you began by saying, what kind of lawyer would let
(26:07):
a client give an interview like that. You can see
how much we're already deducing just by the words he
said in his tone of voice, I want to point
out that, hey, don't really lose doctor Bethany. Okay, listen
to this, Okay, let me verbalize this correctly. On many
of the graphic sex images he got from little girls,
(26:29):
nude photos of children, childhorn, the locations were not in
his hometown that Joe Scott was pointing to. He's thirty
seven miles away. He got images for little children from
Hammond Royal Center, also in Indiana, Bunker Hill, Galveston, Indianapolis, Cocomo, Monterey,
and Royal Center. So his m was to get photos
(26:54):
from little girls in different areas. Now would he travel
to meet Why not? It's just got pointed out, it's
thirty seven miles away. What were you saying, Bethany. Well,
Wendy was wondering, given his interview, if we could tell
if he was the kind of person who would get
angry and anger leading to homicide. But remember, there are
(27:14):
many other reasons that sex predators kill. Maybe he wouldn't
want to have been ideed by them. Remember Olibby took
a Snapchat photo of somebody who looked remarkably like Kleine,
or he could have been like a sado masochistic kind
of person or sadist excuse me, where he wanted to
inflict pain an injury in order to increase his sexual
(27:37):
excitement excitement and then maybe when that went too far
or he maamed them, or he had to dispose of
them afterwards. But if the police were able to get
a hold of the content of his Facebook, his Instagram, Twitter,
all of that, I think that they will probably have
a behavioral expert looking at what was the content of
(27:59):
the sex will chat with these underage girls? Did it
veer towards sadism? Did he ever talk about wanting to
tie them up, to harm them, to hurt them, because
that could be another reason why you can kill them
and disposed of them. Listen to this. Speaking of the images,
they were mostly children between age twelve and seventeen, adults
(28:24):
involved in sex acts with children between the ages of
three and eleven, Images of a drugs and a photo
of Climb with the black handgun. So if you are
not interested in sex with a child, why would you
(28:44):
be soliciting photos and videos of sex with a child.
You know that all saying to you, Cheryl, you know
what you think about. It's what you are, it's what
you do. I always tell the children, don't invite the
devil for tea. He may stay for supper and end
(29:07):
up camping out overnight. In your head, don't so if
he's not interested in it, why is he soliciting it?
And here's the thing that's going to go against the
argument when people say, well, he was just trying to
get photographs. No, he was asking for photographs and asking
people to meet with him. And it just might be
(29:28):
that finally somebody met him. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace,
a factory reaset that Joe Scott and I were talking
(29:50):
about earlier essentially wipes all user data. Now investigators were
able to get info on the device, including discussions about
me eating people in Vegas and prostitution. So he apparently
was willing to travel to satisfy his twisted desires. Let's
(30:11):
take a listen to more of what we are now
getting from wth R. This guy actually spoke to producers
from behind bars. Don't you know his defense lawyer is
doing a back flip hit it. Jack. Are you aware
whether you may have talked to Libby on the thirteenth.
(30:33):
That's what they said, and that's what the police told
me that you did. Yeah, and do you have any
recollection of that? Not at all? Have you told them
a hundred times I've done everything they wanted me to,
and it's like they're just harassing me. Oh back company,
harassing again, you know, to use Sheryl McCollum. I have
(30:57):
never seen a case where that's being handled this way.
It's almost as if they are titillating the public with
just a little bit of information. Not releasing more details
has not helped them at all. What's the problem, Cheryl,
I've never seen anything like this either, Nancy, as you know,
(31:20):
I mean, within that first week, we had the video
in his voice within the first week, and then it
wasn't until five months later we get the first composite,
and then two years later we get a consecutive you know,
a second composite that doesn't look anything like the first one,
and then in December of twenty twenty one, now we
(31:42):
have this Anthony underscore shots account. I mean, it's just
been this piecemeal. But you know you're getting at the
five year mark. I mean it might be time to
release a little more. Well what do you think about that?
Just Scott Morgan? Yeah, I think that that's I mean,
what a point. And I know that it's you can say,
(32:02):
what do you have to lose? You can lose the
whole case. But really, at this point in time, we've
been teased. I like the fact that you use that
term with and I'll go back to this. Do you
remember early on they said they being the authorities that
they have DNA sample? Okay, so what exactly do you
mean by that? I think that needs to be explored.
(32:24):
What's the sourcing of the DNA? And when I say that,
I'm talking about we've mentioned hair earlier. Is it semen?
Is it blood? Is it merely touched DNA? And you know,
if you have DNA, why is it that it's it's
coming up, you know, with a big fat zero at
this point in time, Why is it that you have
this evidence rich environment which I can only assume it was.
(32:49):
What's the what's the what's what's the inhibitor here? That's
that's preventing you going forward with the physical evidence? I think,
And why hasn't that happened. Has it been played into codist?
I can only assume that it would have been to
get a reference, you know, the National DNA database. And
so I'm wondering if what the nature of the DNA is,
(33:10):
if it is as substantial as we hope that it is,
or is it contaminated or compromised in some way. I
don't know. These are big questions that have to be answered. Nancy. Nancy,
I'm a layperson, and when I read this, meaning that
I've never been on a crime scene, I'm not an investigator,
I'm not a detective. And when I read that they
had held on to this much information for five years,
(33:33):
I thought bubble formed above my head. That was like,
do you really have anything substantial at all? I mean,
are you bluffing? Are you hiding? Where is the reality
of this investigation? I mean, Joe Scott Morgan just put
it so much more beautifully and eloquently. But just from
the public's perspective, it's either a tease or it's just
like an empty gesture and there's nothing behind it at all. Guys,
(33:57):
speaking of teasing the public as aimes exactly what the
Indiana State Police is are doing. Take a listen to
our c at D three. It's important that we don't
show our hand. Quite frankly and very directly, we're not
going to explain what we know about the killer. We're
not going to do that. We're not going to explain
(34:20):
some of the intricate details of the death of Abby
and Libby. Unfortunately, one day we're going to have to.
But then that's going to create a whole other issue
with family and friends in the community and the like.
So from an investigator standpoint, I'm not going to talk
any more about it. To Dr Bethany Marshall, you were
(34:42):
saying what well, I was saying that when they say
they're not going to reveal to the public, it'll have
to come out and court at some point. It could
be a tease. But Nancy, maybe they have nothing at all.
A further thought, meaning there is no evidence. Maybe they
flugged it up as Joe Scott Morgan in much better
language than I could have constructed. But here's another thought, Nancy,
(35:05):
this guy was such a prolific offender. Where are all
the other victims? Has anybody else come forward? I mean,
the families in those communities must be terrified. Don't you
think they've perhaps they've checked their daughter's social media accounts.
I would be Nancy. I gotta do this. I do
not think they're bluffing. I'll tell you what I think
(35:27):
has happened. I think at first when this went down,
they didn't know what to do with what they found
because it was so out of the realm of anything
they had ever seen. We had twenty year veterans telling us,
this is the worst scene we've ever dealt with, this
is the worst crime we've ever dealt with. And I
(35:47):
believe them. So let me go back. If you look
at the bridge, every single teenage girl, every single one,
can tell you there was a guy somewhere at a
Ballfield grocery store movie theater that made them feel weird,
that they thought was kind of a pervert, right, But
they didn't videotape them. Libby videotaped this guy because he
(36:09):
did something overtly. He did something first in order for
her to take that phone out and videotaped him from
a distance. If you look at the video, his midsection,
his belly button, for example, is headed east where he's
on the west side of the bridge. It appears to me.
He was in the middle of a turn. I believe
(36:30):
he walked past them said or did something freaked her out.
When he turned around is when she started videotaping. I
don't know what is at that scene. I don't know
if there's weird knots or drawings or cuts or burns
or something with clothing. But I do know that holding
it close to the vest is the smartest thing they
(36:52):
can do, because when they get that soob in that room,
he's going to slip up and say something that's never
been released. Yeah, I mean, you have to play it
close to the vest. I think at this point. Though.
Counterpoint to that is that when you get at a
micstand and you make a comment about we're not going
to release this information, you have to have the expectation
(37:14):
and the sophistication to understand these questions will continue to
be asked over and over and over again. We're celebrating,
Oh god, let me rephrase that, we're marking. We're marking
the fifth anniversary. We can celebrate their lives, but this
is horrible what has occurred, and this is we're five
(37:35):
years down the road right now. And when it is
stated that you have specific information you have specific investigative
data that you come up with, the public will want
to know, you know, well, why hasn't this lad somewhere?
And I think that's a valid question. Nanswy Well. I
don't believe that they need to release anything regarding the
(37:58):
mode of the death or any details of the girl's desk,
but anything that can lead to the identity of the
perpetrator is an entirely different matter. Take a listen to
our cut one anchor Juny Sue ABC seven. Nearly five
years since thirteen year old Abby Williams and fourteen year
old Libby German were murdered on this Indiana hiking trail,
(38:20):
their killers still at large, and today Indiana State Police
issuing a new warning to the culprit I resolved to
catch him. Is as strong as it was day one.
But the difference now between now and day one, as
we know about you a lot about you. Today could
be the day sleep well the girls were lasting. You're
(38:43):
this bridge. In February of twenty seventeen, authorities a Libby
recorded this image of the alleged killer on her iPhone,
along with haunting audio of his voice moments before their murder,
apparently telling them to go down the hill. If you
knew Libby, she had her phone attached her hip all
(39:05):
the time. Libby's grandparents believe the teenager knew something was
right with a man they encountered, prompting her to record him.
Something decides me to, says she was going to film
that and come home and say, look, Granfa, I'll look
at this guy who he was out there? Really weird.
How does it help to issue a statement that says
(39:26):
we know a lot about you. If you knew that much,
then why not arrest him? And today could be the day?
Sleep well? But there's been no arrest. So what's the
thinking behind that kind of statement? What about it? Wendy Patrick,
It sounds like they know a lot about the profile
(39:46):
of who committed the murders. What it seems like is
lacking as the tie between the profile they have and
the actual suspect they're going to arrest. You know, I
have even tried rape cases where you would expect there
would be DNA everywhere but there wasn't, or forensic evidence
you would expect would just be prolific at a crime scene,
but it wasn't able to be tied to a particular
(40:08):
suspect in the same way. They've released sketches that have
been very different from each other. They're not photographed, and
there are many people that folsefully look like sketches that
have been released. So they seem to be struggling with
that link. They've got the profile, they have the evidence
that they just don't have that bridge to be able
to charge, for example, the person we've been talking about
(40:30):
who's in custody for the child porn. Yeah. Yeah, it's
interesting that you're using that phraseology, Wendy Patrick. Can I
agree they may be one step away missing one piece
of evidence. And Cheryl McCollum had a great idea. If
they haven't already done it, Indiana police, I'm sure will
(40:50):
make plans to take that jailhouse interview and compare it
to the known voice of the killer where he says
down the hill, down the hill, and hopefully get a match.
Take a listen to our cut eleven where they virtually
say that this is from WNDU. By February of twenty
(41:13):
twenty one, police maintained they were just one puzzle piece
away from an arrest. It is not a cold case.
I've been adamant about that all along. It is not
a cold case, so we still receive tips by way
of email, our phone calls every day, and so new
information still pours into our investigators. Those investigators moved to
(41:34):
a new space in September of twenty twenty one where
they could continue to work on tips. As the reward
grows to three hundred and twenty five thousand dollars, and
just when the public thought they weren't going to learn
anything new about the killer, detectives are seeking information about
the person who created the Anthony Shots profile. Investigators would
like any individual who communicated me or attempted to meet
(41:57):
the Anthony Shots profile to contact law for that. Request
for help from Indiana State Police in December of twenty
twenty one seeking information about a fake online account that
went by the name of Anthony Underscore Shots the tip
line seven six five eight two two thirty five thirty
five Repeat seven six five eight two two thirty five
(42:20):
thirty five. The reward is growing now at three hundred
and twenty five thousand dollars. Nancy Grace Crumbs story signing
off Goodbye friend,
Host
Nancy Grace
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