September 28, 2025 • 38 mins
Thirty years after Susan Smith drove her car into a lake with her two sons strapped in their car seats, she sought parole. A parole board denied her request, and a suitor later revealed that Smith had dreamed of appearing on “Dancing with the Stars.” She is reportedly “devastated” that her bid for parole failed. Now we learn from shocking texts that Smith is being send money by multiple men with whom she is in contact with from behind bars.
After high school, Susan Leigh Vaughan married David Smith. They had two sons, but the marriage faltered despite the children. The couple separated multiple times. During one separation, Susan began dating Tom Findlay, the single son of a wealthy mill owner. Smith imagined a future with Findlay until she received a "Dear John" letter from him, stating he did not want an instant family.
On the night of October 25, Susan Smith knocked on the door of a house near John D. Long Lake. Hysterical, she told the man who answered to call the police. She claimed an armed Black man had carjacked her at a red light, with her two boys—3-year-old Michael and 14-month-old Alex—still in the car. For days, Susan repeated increasingly inconsistent versions of the carjacking story.
Eventually, Smith confessed. There had been no carjacker. Feeling desperate, alone, and suicidal, she had taken her sons for a drive. At John D. Long Lake, she put the car in neutral, jumped out, and watched as the car sank. Scuba divers later found the vehicle with the boys still strapped in their seats.
Since her conviction and incarceration, tabloid reports have alleged that Smith told prison investigators about four sexual encounters with Lieutenant Houston Cagle, a supervisor at South Carolina’s Women’s Correctional Institution. C
Cagle admitted to having sex with Smith and another inmate. In August 2000, he was charged with the offenses, pleaded guilty, and served three months in jail. Captain Alfred Rowe also pleaded guilty to having sex with Smith and received five years of probation.
Over the years, several men have written to Smith, fueling her hopes for a life beyond prison.
Joining Nancy Grace Today:
- Tara Malek – Boise, ID, Attorney & Co-owner of Smith + Malek; Former State and Federal Prosecutor; Twitter: @smith_malek
- Dr. Bethany Marshall – Psychoanalyst (Beverly Hills, CA); Instagram & TikTok: drbethanymarshall; Twitter: @DrBethanyLive
- Chris McDonough – Director At the Cold Case Foundation, Former Homicide Detective; Host of YouTube channel: “The Interview Room”
- JoScott Morgan – Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University; Author, “Blood Beneath My Feet;” Host: “Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan;" Twitter: @JoScottForensic
- Dave Mack - CrimeOnline Investigative Reporter
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
In the last days shocking and let me say, disgusting.
Jail text of baby killer mom Susan Smith. Remember her,
she drowned her two children. This woman, it never ends
with her. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I
want to thank you for being with us. Killer Mom
(00:28):
Susan Smith, who's round her two little boys in South Carolina,
is raking in I can't believe this. I have to
go to let's see four years of undergrad three years
of law school, and three years of graduate law school
at NYU. That's four plus three US ten years to
make a living. This woman is raking in thousands of
(00:51):
dollars from lovelorn men, promising she will quote be with them.
I think we all know what that means when she
ever gets out of prison. Yes. Yes, Transcripts have been
obtained of hundreds of voice and text messages. Smith has
traded with love sick men while she's behind bars.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
She gets and.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Sends around twenty texts a day, spending hours talking on
the phone to love sick guys who engage in sex
talk with her, and these guys range from age twenty seven.
Go go find a young woman your own age, Repeat's
(01:39):
sake twenty seven and mid sixties. They send money to
her prison account and she texts about how she wants
to be with them and what she wants to do
to them when she gets out. Okay, reality check, this
is who Susan Smith really is.
Speaker 3 (01:57):
Love.
Speaker 4 (01:58):
He's a lady got about and some guy dum to
a red light with her car with.
Speaker 5 (02:04):
Her two kids in it.
Speaker 4 (02:05):
The need to golf, and he got out of call
here at Ohio and he got let.
Speaker 5 (02:10):
Her call it.
Speaker 4 (02:10):
I don't I need to go along, get down here.
Speaker 6 (02:15):
An carry, but we need a Maga proty day.
Speaker 5 (02:22):
What color was it?
Speaker 4 (02:24):
A burgundy Maga Protegee? We don't get him?
Speaker 7 (02:27):
Going pay him?
Speaker 4 (02:28):
I got two.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
I love that degree of detail. You know. I don't
even know where to go first because I've got such
awesome experts, But I'm going to go first with Chris mcdonna.
He is the director of Cold Case Foundation. Okay, don't care,
former homicide detective, starting to care, getting warm, getting warm,
getting hotter. He has his own YouTube channel, the Interview
(02:50):
Room where I found him. You can find him at
Coldcase Foundation dot org or on the Interview Room. Former
Homicide detective three hundred ish homicide scenes under his belt.
Chris mcdonna, don't you love the degree of detail?
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Hey?
Speaker 2 (03:10):
You know what send me? Sometimes you got to hear
the best stuff. Can you play that one more time? Listen,
my love?
Speaker 4 (03:16):
And he's a lady you come on, got dolar And
she's some guy dumping into a red light with her
car with her two kids in it, and.
Speaker 6 (03:24):
He's took off.
Speaker 4 (03:25):
She got out of call here at Ohio Layo, let
her call it. I don't rhy I need to go along,
you know, down here and a car is what we
need to add. A maga protegee. What color was it?
A burgundy maga protege.
Speaker 7 (03:45):
We don't get him going pay him?
Speaker 2 (03:47):
They got take I'll call all the detail, Chris mcdonna.
She's quote real hysterical and you need to call himlong
and get him down here right now. And you hear
her feeding details in the background.
Speaker 8 (04:03):
Nancy, Wasn't that the narrative that captivated America?
Speaker 2 (04:07):
How can you be so calm?
Speaker 8 (04:10):
You know, we just get used to it. Unfortunately, right
it's when.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
Somebody still get very angry, very angry. And I know
the end of this story.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
But the detail.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
Have you ever seen perps and they will spin you
a yarn with such incredibly rich detail.
Speaker 8 (04:28):
Yeah, and typically that detail, if it's that minutia and
that amount, is typically a sign of deception. And she
kicked it off right.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
From that nine one one call from the beginning, the beginning,
running up to somebody's house talking about some guy jumps
out and you know this occurs in rural Union County,
South Carolina, near the John D. Long Lake. And you know,
hold on, Chris McDonald, where where do you live, Chris?
Speaker 7 (05:01):
Well?
Speaker 8 (05:01):
Right now, I'm in Arizona, but I lived in South
Carolina right there in Mount Plus.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
You're very familiar with this area. Let me go to
another country boy like this country girl right here. Just
got Morgan joining me, although he's gotten pretty high falutin.
Professor Forensis, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet,
still waiting on another book to come out, host of
Bodybag's hit podcast. This area. Chris McDonough has lived in
(05:31):
South Carolina. I've gone to this scene before. It's extremely rural,
and I'm supposed to believe a guy jumps out of
what from behind a stop sign and hijacks her car
and takes off with the children clearly in the back seat,
two little boys.
Speaker 9 (05:48):
Yeah, what are the odds that you're going to have
somebody that wants to do this kind of harm, whether
or not they had an awareness that, you know, these
poor little angels were buckled down in those back seats.
The fact that you would have this kind of aggressive
behavior in that location where she was specifically targeted as
(06:10):
an investigator, I'm certainly going to raise an eyebrow and
I'm going to take a long look at what she
has to say, because, as you and I both know, Nancy,
the line share, the line share of home sides that
we talked about have some kind of familial connection. That
means that you're around intimates those individuals that are most important.
So you're going to tell me that a random stranger
(06:31):
just came up and kidnapped these babies and run off
with them and left her standing on the side of
the road weeping.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Now, did you hear what he just did? Chris mcdonah,
I am going along with everything he says, but he's
a wilely one. You got to really watching watch what
Joe Scott says. I agree with the whole rural aspect.
But did you hear him say if the unknown male
assailant noticed the children in the back seat. I'm looking
(07:01):
right now at a ninety four Mazda Protege. You can
see straight into the back seat from every angle of
the car. It's not like you know, you see those
black su these with tended windows, you can't see what's
going on in there. No, you can see exactly what's
going on in the back seat. And I'm looking at
(07:22):
a shot from the distance, I can see through the
back window, through the back dash, and through the other
side of the car. Whoever took the car could definitely
see that children were strapped into car seats in the
back seat. I mean, okay, you know what, Let's take
a listen to the nine one one call.
Speaker 5 (07:42):
Listen when a by golehead did it with a black
mail driving a Burnandi Protege, a firm did one fine.
Speaker 3 (07:55):
They had two juvenil waiting ones fine for one underd
or smile children.
Speaker 4 (08:01):
These are her children.
Speaker 5 (08:02):
And she jumped out of the car, and he took
the car with the children, and he hated toy Chestram.
Speaker 4 (08:09):
Are the victory of the.
Speaker 7 (08:13):
Family.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
When I gathered by the call.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
They are not.
Speaker 5 (08:17):
This is a stranger that had jumped in the lady's
car at a red light, and she jumped.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
Out, I mean really, Tara, and I'm leading up to
what Susan Smith is doing right now. And let me
tell you that involves six different men, that said Tara
Malick joining me out of Boise, Idaho co owner Smith
and Malik, former state and federal prosecutor.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Tara once again blamed the black man. I remember when
this happened.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
I was trying a case and I looked over at
my friend, my colleague, who went on to be a joke,
I might add, and I went, Herman, have you seen
the composite of the guy that Susan Smith described? And
he went, yeah, I know what you're going to say,
(09:10):
but yeah, it looks just like you. It looked just
like Herman Sloan, my trial partner who had come into
court to.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
Bail me out of some sling.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
I got in with the judge with some appellate law
trying to suggest that I was right and whatever I did,
but he went, yeah, I've heard I looked just like
this Susan Smith park and he did, I mean, think
about it, Tara, An innocent person could have been arrested
and probably tried and convicted based on her fake composite
(09:50):
and all of her lies. Like my Herman, one of my.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
Best friends in the DA's office.
Speaker 6 (09:55):
Yeah, absolutely, I mean the crime itself was atrocious and horristic.
And and then and then you know, to give this
false profile of someone else who may have done it,
wasting resources, law enforcement resources, wasting everybody's time, but also,
like you said, putting somebody else potentially in jeopardy of
being picked up for It's just mind boggling that she
(10:18):
would go down the road.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
You know, I've dealt with a sod defense many times.
I named it that some other dude did it. Sod d.
Here she goes, some other dude did it, and listen
to her.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
Listen.
Speaker 10 (10:31):
I would like to stay to whoever has my children,
that they please they please bring.
Speaker 9 (10:41):
Them home.
Speaker 10 (10:45):
To us where they belong.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 10 (10:57):
Now.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
In one instance, she tells a love dude quote, I
don't ask for money, That's not who I am. Does
he know you're a two time killer, But if you
wanted to send me something, I can tell you how
to do it. He writes back, and says he has
absolutely sent money into her jail account. Love you, She responds, okay,
(11:20):
please somebody bring me my vomit bag. This is who
Susan Smith really is. Susan Smith murdered her boys. Doctor
Bethany Marshall joining says she's a renownced psychoanalyst at Doctorbethany
Marshall dot com. As a matter of fact, Doctor Bethany,
I don't get it. We've got men sexting and texting
(11:45):
and writing and sending money and love letters to Susan
Smith when she is a ballfaced liar that count her
children and the worst way letting her car, her Burgundy
protege go down a ramp with the two little boys
(12:05):
alive strapped in the back seat.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
Why I don't get it.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
Why would men want to be with this woman, send
her money and sex text with her? But did you
hear her lie? Do you remember when that happened? Crying
in the snotting and all that happening. And I want
to say you ever have my children? They please please
(12:33):
bring them home to us where they belong, knowing full
well they drowned strapped in their car seats.
Speaker 3 (12:42):
We'll show how immature she is at the most.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
Basic level that she wants the most. You could say
she's immature. She murdered two little boys.
Speaker 3 (12:52):
We know she's a sociopath, but what beyond the fact
that she's a sociopath, what additional factor are there that
would lead to this? And one is an over attachment
to men. She loves that feeling of falling in love,
the feeling you have.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
The first s. Are you linking this to double murder?
Why this woman did not get the death.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
Penalty, I do not know. And now there's six guys
trying to have sex with are really ill.
Speaker 3 (13:19):
Butically it's really a pathological attachment to.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
Men, like being in a barrel with with a rattlesnake.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Who was that?
Speaker 3 (13:27):
Well, apparently they do. And you know, women who couldn't
have fantasie who kill their children often have some really
First of all, they were usually what we call cluster B.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
Then or not I really have some sexy mesia going
on because I'm totally cutting your mic.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
Okay, So their cluster B, which means they have three
different disorders sociopathy, bipolar, and borderline. Often they have a
very pathological attachment to men. Either they kill the children
to get back at the object, like I'm going to
kill her children because I'm mad at you. It's hard
(14:04):
to describe this without really sounding like it's trite, but
it's These are the underpinnings of what these women do.
So it's either I'm going to kill the children to
get back at you, or I'm going to kill the
children if they found a new guy, and I don't
want the children to be in the way.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
Interesting that you said that. Interesting, But I also want
you to hear the level of detail that she waves
into her big fat lie about her two murdered little boys.
I can't even imagine. I'm more excruciating death than being
strapped in a car, can't get out.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
The car goes underwater.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
A muddy lake, and you're in the car screaming for
mommy as that car fills up with water till you drown.
Listen to our cut crime online.
Speaker 7 (15:01):
On the night of October twenty fifth, Susan Smith knocks
on the door of a house near John D. Long Lake.
She's hysterical when the man answers the door and tells
him to call the police. A black man just carjacked
her at a red light. He had a gun, and
she jumped out of the car, but her two boys,
three year old Michael and fourteen month old Alex, are
still in the car. Police begins searching immediately, and the
(15:22):
nation's media converges on Union, South Carolina for eight days.
Susan Smith tells an ever changing story of the carjacking,
and friends get irritated when she keeps asking if Tom
Findley has reached out to see her. Friends wonder why
she would care about Findley when her two children are missing.
On day nine of intense media pressure, Susan Smith meets
with Union County Sheriff Howard Wells, and Wells meets with
(15:45):
the press.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
Okay, note to sell who is Tom Finley? But there's more.
There's more.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
Listen.
Speaker 7 (15:54):
Susan Smith has carried the line as far as she can.
When she finally admits what she's done, there never was
a black man with a gun that stole her car
with their kids in the back. She now says she
went out for a drive with her sons buckled into
their car seats in the back, Feeling desperate, alone and suicidal.
She now says she drove to John D. Long Lake
and planned to roll the car into the lake. Smith
(16:14):
puts the car in neutral, but instead of going into
the lake with the car and the boys, she jumps
out and watches the car sink. Based on her directions
for where the car should be, scuba divers locate the
vehicle with the boys in the back still buckled into
their seats.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
Just let that so Kim for just one moment, claiming,
you know, why is it chrismin Gunna that all these
people that want to commit suicide end up killing their
children or their family or somebody else they miraculously live.
Speaker 8 (16:43):
I mean, just so horrific thought in of itself, right,
Nancamy Night. I actually drove the entire route that Susan
Smith took that day. There were ample opportunities for her
to change her mind and turn around. There were stop signs,
they were, you know, through residential neighborhoods. And to think
(17:05):
that she was saying to the public, you know, or
to the police when she initially confessed, well, you know,
I thought about committing suicide, but I couldn't do it,
et cetera. So I jumped out. You know, when you
go to that boat ramp where these poor little babies
are strapped in those backseats, and is that car is
going down that ramp. I would submit to you. She
(17:27):
had gotten out of that car almost immediately and let
that car go to your point a couple of minutes ago.
And as that water started to fill that vehicle, can
you imagine the horror that these children were experiencing and
the mother standing there as that vehicle started to sink.
It took about six I think between six to fifteen
(17:51):
seconds for that vehicle to hit the water and within
a minute it was submerged.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
Yamya.
Speaker 3 (17:56):
It just shows how cold blood she is. She could
stand on the shore look at the car submerged and
knowing that her babies were drowning. It really gives you
insight into how detached and just cold blooded she is.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
Yeah, who is this woman?
Speaker 2 (18:16):
Take a listen to our cut three from crime online
dot Com.
Speaker 7 (18:19):
After high school, she began dating David Smith. Soon there's
a baby on the way and the pair decided to
get married. Ultimately, they have two boys, Michael Daniel and
Alexander Tyler, but the children don't keep the marriage together.
The Smith separate several times. During one of these separations,
Susan Smith begins dating Tom Finley, the single son of
a wealthy mill owner.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
Ah, so that is who Tom Finley is, Okay, Tara Mallick,
high profile lawyer joining us from our own law from
Smith and Mallet. Would that be motive she wants to
be with this rich guy?
Speaker 1 (18:55):
Yeah, I think you know.
Speaker 6 (18:57):
Who's painted in different ways. During the trial itself, and
there was some conflicting testimony. One of the theories of
the case that was put on and suspected was that
she wanted.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
To be with Thomas Finley.
Speaker 6 (19:12):
Finley didn't like the fact that, you know, she had
two kids, and in a way or in an attempt
to get back together with Finley, who she was having
an affair with, you know, she drowned her two boys.
The other testimony that was presented during the trial was that,
you know, she was someone who was an abused child,
(19:33):
she had had a secret affair with her stepfather, she
was frightened of her husband, you know. And so I
think those details this jury ended up grappling with. And
it's the case that should have been a death penalty case,
but unfortunately not here.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
Quote she always thought it would be fun to be
on that show, and that when they put Anna Delvey
on the show, Susan felt like maybe it was the possibility.
Oh kay, I had enough of a problem with Anna Delvi,
the fake eras who conned people out of hundreds of
(20:12):
thousands of dollars. She showed up on Dancing with the Stars,
and then she blamed Dancing with the Stars for exploiting her. Okay,
just these people. I can't make this up. And now
Susan Smith is on the Dancing with the Stars train,
oh or wants to be okay before she's cast for
(20:36):
Dancing with the Stars. Can we just take a review
of the evidence?
Speaker 1 (20:40):
Isn't it true?
Speaker 2 (20:41):
Dave Mack joining us from Crime Online dot Com that
Finley broke it off with her claiming he did not
want an instant family.
Speaker 8 (20:50):
He did, and.
Speaker 7 (20:51):
Nanthy more to the point, are more than just saying
I don't want kids? There were other things he stated
in there about her and their relationship. He also cited
their different upbringings and that that was a big stumbling block.
Another one the way Susan Smith acted and flirted with
other men.
Speaker 8 (21:11):
He didn't like that, so.
Speaker 7 (21:12):
He mentioned three basic things that he really didn't want
an instant family. But these other two things were mentioned
as well, and one was her own behavior of hitting
on other men, but she dismisses that in her thought process,
blames it all on the kids and thinks she's seen
getting back if she just gets rid of that. She
doesn't address the fact that she hits on men all
the time.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
So let me understand something, Dave Matt. She met Finley,
the son of the rich guy, when she and her
husband were what divorce separated?
Speaker 7 (21:44):
What separated? They actually when they were married, they had
several full on separations where they were not living together,
were dating other people, and yet they would then get
back together, and it was on and off for I think,
I mean after they had the last time. He was
fourteen months old while this happened, so it was an
(22:04):
ongoing process in their relationship that breaking out getting back together.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
Let me get back to doctor Bethony Marshall, what do
you make of this? It was always presented that family
broke up with her because he didn't want an instant family,
But according to the letter he sent her before she
murdered her too little boys, it was a lot more
than that.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
He's probably minimizing it because now he has the scrutiny
of the country and the court and saying, well, I
didn't really want her anyway. But there's partially, I think
a half truth in that maybe he wasn't ready for
a family and children and he was contemplating that. And
I think Susan Smith was the kind of woman who
would just ignore the fact that he didn't want to
be with her. She would think, Oh, you know, i'll
(22:49):
buy any dress. Oh, i'll go shopping. Oh, i'll buy
some mistakes, I'll wear a low cut dress. Oh I'll
just kill my children. I mean just she would just
throw everything at it to get him back. So I
think if she was ambivalent about her that may have
even incentivized her to kill her children.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
Okay, I obviously need to reward my question. There were
other behaviors he found disturbing which led to his decision to.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
Break it off with her.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
Not only that he did not want an instant family,
but he did not like the way she acted promiscuously
with other guys. He didn't want that.
Speaker 3 (23:28):
I think some women relate primarily to men because they
feel they can seduce them, and I think this was
probably her mo that the minute she met a man,
she would be furicacious, she would be overly sexualized, she
would try to attract them. She probably did that all
the time because this is a way of feeling important,
(23:48):
like she's a real person in the real world, and
she doesn't really have to relate to the men. If
it's sexual in an instant then they never become real
people to her. They're all just objects, little objects who
flatter her.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
Listen, now are cut for.
Speaker 7 (24:04):
Susan Smith is planning a future with the best catch
in the county when she gets a Dear John letter
from Dear Tom. He explains he doesn't think the relationship
will work because of the difference in their upbringing, the
way she acts towards other men, and he doesn't want
an instant family. He doesn't want children right now. Susan
dismisses her upbringing or her behavior towards other men as
(24:25):
possible deal breakers in the relationship, and the only thing
she sees is Tom Finley doesn't want children.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
So she ignores everything except the children part of the complaint,
and then suddenly, poof, they're gone. In the last days,
Susan Smith back in the news, apparently having a romantic
relationship with at least six men behind bars. Okay, what
(24:53):
does that mean? Well, there are precursors to today's report
of Susan Smith's relationships with six guys. What precursors will
listener ourcut ten.
Speaker 7 (25:06):
A tabloid news report claiming Susan Smith had been beaten
by guards at a prison in South Carolina gave birth
to an investigation into the matter. While there was no
proof she had been beaten, Smith told prison investigators that
she had four sexual encounters Lieutenant Houston Cagele, a supervisor
at South Carolina's Women's Correctional Institution WCI, where she's confined.
(25:27):
Cagle admitted having sex with Smith and another prisoner and
was charged with the offense in August of two thousand.
Smith was twenty eight at the time and was disciplined
for having sex with the guard, while fifty year old
Kagel pleaded guilty and spent three months in jail. In
two thousand and one, a prison captain, Alfred Rowe, also
pleaded guilty to having sex with Smith and was sentenced
to five years probation. It was then discovered that Susan
(25:50):
Smith engaged in sexual relations with Cagel after she tested
positive for an std.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
Okay, so, she claims I was beaten and that spawns
an investigation, but it turns out she wasn't beaten. She
was sleeping with various prison guards. Just got Morgan, remind me,
what is it like to drown? You're the death investigator
one of the.
Speaker 9 (26:12):
Most horrible deaths that you can even begin to think about.
And the fact is, the thing that's always bothered me
about this case, Nancy, is that with Alex and michael on,
I think it's really important that I say their names
at this moment in time, because they are the victims.
When they were strapped in those little seats in the
(26:34):
back of that Mazda and that tight, little confined place
where maybe their mother had taken them to McDonald's before,
had taken them all over town, and suddenly they're at
the edge of a boat ramp and they're thinking, you know,
what's mama doing? Now? You know, she gets out of
the car and as that car is left and neutral
and goes down that boat ramp and begins to slowly
(26:55):
sink beneath those dark waters out there. You know, they
found that car about one hundred and twenty feet off
of the shore. The dive team had looked for it
for some period of time. Car was filled with water.
Those kids were still strapped in that back seat. And
our reaction as humans, if we're trying to catch our breath,
is to fight. And just imagine this, Nancy. They're strapped.
(27:19):
We've all got babies in our families that we've taken
care of. We strapped them in car seats. And you
ever seen a child struggle to get out of the
car seat. They're tired of being in it. Well, imagine
that only water's creeping up on you. Water's getting into
your nose, your little mouth, your eyes, You're running out
of oxygen. Your brain is screaming. It's on fire because
(27:41):
there's no oxygen. You can't catch your breath, and you
have no idea. It's panic that's setting in and it
would not have been. I just wanted to spell any
kind of fantasy somebody might be having right now that
this was a sudden and a quick death. It wasn't.
It was tortress. It was absolutely horrific what these babies
(28:04):
went through at that moment, Tom Nancy, and I'm with you.
I'm still to this day just befuddled why she's not
sitting on death row. And you know, forever and ever
she's getting going with her life. No isn't she and
those babies died, died at this monster's hands, out there
out there in that.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
Lake, knowing full well what she did, immediately running to
a nearby home, claiming that an unknown male had jumped
into her car. And I guess the only red light
in the county. And I feel okay saying that because
where I grew up that we didn't even have a
red light, So out of the entire county, an unknown
(28:46):
assailant jumps into her car at the one red light,
takes her car and murders her children. Okay, this is
the woman these guys want to be with. Speaking of them,
there's a matter of Captain Alfred Rowe. Now we heard
about Cagel Cagile, a supervisor at South Carolina Women's ci
(29:09):
Correctional Institute.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
And what happened with him.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
We know that he was ultimately identified because Susan Smith
turned up with an std behind bars. But there's more.
Take a listen to our cut eleven. Does she not
realize there are consequences to actions.
Speaker 7 (29:29):
Captain Alfred Smith was one of the guards who lost
their careers after having sex with Susan Smith behind bars.
Roe says Smith is a master manipulator, telling Inside Edition
that Smith approached him at three in the morning, telling
him she thought he was the nicest officer at the
prison and that she was lonely. The former guard says
things just escalated from there. Roe claims he only had
(29:49):
sex with Smith one time, but it cost him everything.
He was fired from the job, lost his pension, and
after pleading guilty to having sex with Smith, he was
sentenced to five years probation.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
Take a listnour Cut twelve.
Speaker 7 (30:01):
Sex isn't the only issue Susan Smith has faced in prison.
Twice in twenty ten and once in twenty fifteen, Susan
Smith was disciplined on drug charges, losing privileges for more
than a year. Susan Smith's drug use escalated when she
switched prisons from Camille Graham Correctional Center in Columbia, South Carolina,
to Leath Correctional Institution in Greenwood, South Carolina. Former prison
(30:22):
guard Alfred Rowe, who pleaded guilty to having sex with
Smith at the prison, told the TV show Sellmate Secrets.
When Smith was moved from one prison to another, that
it was at that point where quote she could no
longer get the mail attention that she used as a
drug unquote and instead turned to pill.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
Which led to a series of drug infractions.
Speaker 1 (30:45):
Crime stores with Nancy Grace. To another guy, Susan.
Speaker 2 (30:52):
Smith writes, behind bar, she's raking in thousands of dollars
a month. She spends hours on the phone having phone sex,
sending over twenty texts a day to these guys. Quote,
I want to be with you when I get out.
I think we all know what that means. Thank you
for the funds, they will come in handy. What is
she doing with the money behind bars? What can you
(31:14):
really even do with that? Her little boys, Michael and Alexander,
were strapped into the car by their seat belts when
they were drowned, screaming for mommy. That's the last human
face they saw. As she rolled the car into a lake.
She asked another guy if he would support her when
she was paroled. Then he does this big spreadsheet. Listen
(31:37):
to what this guy says, quote, I'll tell you what
I did last night thinking of you. I'm sure he
was thinking of you.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
I can't even describe what he was doing while he
was thinking of her. I made a spreadsheet that starts
out with two hundred and thirteen thousand dollars, you're gonna
have more than that. I think you'll be in the
two hundred and twenty thousand dollars range. All put together,
you can spend forty thousand a year while you're withdrawing
from that balance. It's still earning interest on the undrawn amount.
(32:09):
In twenty years, you will have spent most of that,
but you'll still have some left. Smith sighs after a
pause and says, I love you so much. He says,
I love you too, and then they make kissy sounds. Okay, quick,
bring back the vomit bag. This is so Susan Smith
(32:32):
really is the narrative, her story that she projects is
so different from reality. Life has not passed her by.
She committed double murder. That that's what happened. It's not
anyone's fault but her own.
Speaker 3 (32:51):
Absolutely.
Speaker 6 (32:52):
I mean, and if life.
Speaker 3 (32:54):
Has passed her by, how does she.
Speaker 6 (32:57):
Characterize what she did to her stife. She took their
life away. They didn't even have the opportunity to live
a life. I mean, these were really young kids here,
and I think you know the pattern of behavior that
she's exhibited, like the infractions that she's picked up while
she's been in prison. I mean, all of this doesn't
(33:18):
tend to show that this is someone who has been
rehabilitated while in prison. I mean, she's still showing those
signs of manipulation that you know she engaged in before
she was convicted in Sensus, you know, leading on the
nation for nine days, telling lies about what actually happened,
telling lies and bringing fingers of people that didn't exist.
Speaker 3 (33:40):
So this is a really deeply disturbed individual.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
Chris mc dunna with me, a former homicide detective and
host of YouTube channel The Interview Room who has investigated
at least three hundred homicides. You know, defendants can be very,
very charming. Think about Scott Peterson or doctor Martin McNeil,
who killed his wife, a beauty queen. According to Susan
(34:07):
Smith's family, they say, quote she seems to be happy,
and that she quote always had a messy love life.
She's creating a fictional version of her life and people
are buying it. These guys, these lonely hearts, are buying
(34:29):
it and attempting to have let me just say, romantic
interludes with her. Chris McDonough. Have you ever met a
charming murder defendant, because I have absolutely Nancy.
Speaker 8 (34:42):
And what's interesting about her is we have to always
remember that all behavior has a purpose, and that past
behavior is usually an indication of future behavior. So she
has always, throughout her entire case and through her life
here while in prison and even before prison, she always
(35:05):
sometimes projected the words of day into her vocabulary. And
if we listen real carefully to the minutia of what
she said in the very beginning, whoever they are, please
bring them home. She's talking about two suspects, but she
(35:26):
talks about one in terms of a description. And now
if we fast forward that to today, we have six
individuals men who quite frankly, I can't figure that piece
of a puzzle out.
Speaker 10 (35:40):
You know.
Speaker 8 (35:40):
That's that's for the doctors to tell us what that's
all about. But she is utilizing that behavior still to
this day, by talking about money, by talking about sexual
you know, TIFFs there between the two of them, and
she hasn't lost a thought from miss Leopard, you know.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
Just Scott Morgan, maybe we just know too much when
it comes to murder, because when I think of Susan Smith,
I immediately think of being trapped strapped in to a car
as it's going down a ramp and going underwater and
seeing the water coming up on either side and starting
to pour in through the windshields. It comes up around
(36:27):
you and you can't get out. I mean, the children
in this case were three and fourteen months.
Speaker 9 (36:35):
They never had stood a chance within this environment. And
here's another thing that people might not be aware of.
After that car dip beneath the surface of that water,
one other element we have to consider. And again I
go back to the idea that we all have had babies,
(36:57):
you know, parents, that sort of thing. I've got yous
and grandkids whom.
Speaker 1 (37:01):
I love dearly.
Speaker 9 (37:02):
And what is it the kids are afraid of late
at night? It's darkness, and it would you would not
have been able to have seen your hand in front
of your face. So not only are they absent a
loving mother who normally you would hope would take care
of them, they're they're disoriented, they're running out of breath,
and it's dark, Nancy, it's cold and it's dark down there.
(37:26):
And that's that goes to the level of horror that
they're that they're you know, experiencing Susan Smith.
Speaker 2 (37:34):
Just go ahead and rake in all the money you want,
but good luck enjoying it behind bars. Do you ever
even think of your two little boys that you murdered?
I do, Nancy Grace, signing off, good night friend,
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
In the last days shocking and let me say, disgusting.
Jail text of baby killer mom Susan Smith. Remember her,
she drowned her two children. This woman, it never ends
with her. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I
want to thank you for being with us. Killer Mom
(00:28):
Susan Smith, who's round her two little boys in South Carolina,
is raking in I can't believe this. I have to
go to let's see four years of undergrad three years
of law school, and three years of graduate law school
at NYU. That's four plus three US ten years to
make a living. This woman is raking in thousands of
(00:51):
dollars from lovelorn men, promising she will quote be with them.
I think we all know what that means when she
ever gets out of prison. Yes. Yes, Transcripts have been
obtained of hundreds of voice and text messages. Smith has
traded with love sick men while she's behind bars.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
She gets and.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Sends around twenty texts a day, spending hours talking on
the phone to love sick guys who engage in sex
talk with her, and these guys range from age twenty seven.
Go go find a young woman your own age, Repeat's
(01:39):
sake twenty seven and mid sixties. They send money to
her prison account and she texts about how she wants
to be with them and what she wants to do
to them when she gets out. Okay, reality check, this
is who Susan Smith really is.
Speaker 3 (01:57):
Love.
Speaker 4 (01:58):
He's a lady got about and some guy dum to
a red light with her car with.
Speaker 5 (02:04):
Her two kids in it.
Speaker 4 (02:05):
The need to golf, and he got out of call
here at Ohio and he got let.
Speaker 5 (02:10):
Her call it.
Speaker 4 (02:10):
I don't I need to go along, get down here.
Speaker 6 (02:15):
An carry, but we need a Maga proty day.
Speaker 5 (02:22):
What color was it?
Speaker 4 (02:24):
A burgundy Maga Protegee? We don't get him?
Speaker 7 (02:27):
Going pay him?
Speaker 4 (02:28):
I got two.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
I love that degree of detail. You know. I don't
even know where to go first because I've got such
awesome experts, But I'm going to go first with Chris mcdonna.
He is the director of Cold Case Foundation. Okay, don't care,
former homicide detective, starting to care, getting warm, getting warm,
getting hotter. He has his own YouTube channel, the Interview
(02:50):
Room where I found him. You can find him at
Coldcase Foundation dot org or on the Interview Room. Former
Homicide detective three hundred ish homicide scenes under his belt.
Chris mcdonna, don't you love the degree of detail?
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Hey?
Speaker 2 (03:10):
You know what send me? Sometimes you got to hear
the best stuff. Can you play that one more time? Listen,
my love?
Speaker 4 (03:16):
And he's a lady you come on, got dolar And
she's some guy dumping into a red light with her
car with her two kids in it, and.
Speaker 6 (03:24):
He's took off.
Speaker 4 (03:25):
She got out of call here at Ohio Layo, let
her call it. I don't rhy I need to go along,
you know, down here and a car is what we
need to add. A maga protegee. What color was it?
A burgundy maga protege.
Speaker 7 (03:45):
We don't get him going pay him?
Speaker 2 (03:47):
They got take I'll call all the detail, Chris mcdonna.
She's quote real hysterical and you need to call himlong
and get him down here right now. And you hear
her feeding details in the background.
Speaker 8 (04:03):
Nancy, Wasn't that the narrative that captivated America?
Speaker 2 (04:07):
How can you be so calm?
Speaker 8 (04:10):
You know, we just get used to it. Unfortunately, right
it's when.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
Somebody still get very angry, very angry. And I know
the end of this story.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
But the detail.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
Have you ever seen perps and they will spin you
a yarn with such incredibly rich detail.
Speaker 8 (04:28):
Yeah, and typically that detail, if it's that minutia and
that amount, is typically a sign of deception. And she
kicked it off right.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
From that nine one one call from the beginning, the beginning,
running up to somebody's house talking about some guy jumps
out and you know this occurs in rural Union County,
South Carolina, near the John D. Long Lake. And you know,
hold on, Chris McDonald, where where do you live, Chris?
Speaker 7 (05:01):
Well?
Speaker 8 (05:01):
Right now, I'm in Arizona, but I lived in South
Carolina right there in Mount Plus.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
You're very familiar with this area. Let me go to
another country boy like this country girl right here. Just
got Morgan joining me, although he's gotten pretty high falutin.
Professor Forensis, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet,
still waiting on another book to come out, host of
Bodybag's hit podcast. This area. Chris McDonough has lived in
(05:31):
South Carolina. I've gone to this scene before. It's extremely rural,
and I'm supposed to believe a guy jumps out of
what from behind a stop sign and hijacks her car
and takes off with the children clearly in the back seat,
two little boys.
Speaker 9 (05:48):
Yeah, what are the odds that you're going to have
somebody that wants to do this kind of harm, whether
or not they had an awareness that, you know, these
poor little angels were buckled down in those back seats.
The fact that you would have this kind of aggressive
behavior in that location where she was specifically targeted as
(06:10):
an investigator, I'm certainly going to raise an eyebrow and
I'm going to take a long look at what she
has to say, because, as you and I both know, Nancy,
the line share, the line share of home sides that
we talked about have some kind of familial connection. That
means that you're around intimates those individuals that are most important.
So you're going to tell me that a random stranger
(06:31):
just came up and kidnapped these babies and run off
with them and left her standing on the side of
the road weeping.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Now, did you hear what he just did? Chris mcdonah,
I am going along with everything he says, but he's
a wilely one. You got to really watching watch what
Joe Scott says. I agree with the whole rural aspect.
But did you hear him say if the unknown male
assailant noticed the children in the back seat. I'm looking
(07:01):
right now at a ninety four Mazda Protege. You can
see straight into the back seat from every angle of
the car. It's not like you know, you see those
black su these with tended windows, you can't see what's
going on in there. No, you can see exactly what's
going on in the back seat. And I'm looking at
(07:22):
a shot from the distance, I can see through the
back window, through the back dash, and through the other
side of the car. Whoever took the car could definitely
see that children were strapped into car seats in the
back seat. I mean, okay, you know what, Let's take
a listen to the nine one one call.
Speaker 5 (07:42):
Listen when a by golehead did it with a black
mail driving a Burnandi Protege, a firm did one fine.
Speaker 3 (07:55):
They had two juvenil waiting ones fine for one underd
or smile children.
Speaker 4 (08:01):
These are her children.
Speaker 5 (08:02):
And she jumped out of the car, and he took
the car with the children, and he hated toy Chestram.
Speaker 4 (08:09):
Are the victory of the.
Speaker 7 (08:13):
Family.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
When I gathered by the call.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
They are not.
Speaker 5 (08:17):
This is a stranger that had jumped in the lady's
car at a red light, and she jumped.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
Out, I mean really, Tara, and I'm leading up to
what Susan Smith is doing right now. And let me
tell you that involves six different men, that said Tara
Malick joining me out of Boise, Idaho co owner Smith
and Malik, former state and federal prosecutor.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Tara once again blamed the black man. I remember when
this happened.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
I was trying a case and I looked over at
my friend, my colleague, who went on to be a joke,
I might add, and I went, Herman, have you seen
the composite of the guy that Susan Smith described? And
he went, yeah, I know what you're going to say,
(09:10):
but yeah, it looks just like you. It looked just
like Herman Sloan, my trial partner who had come into
court to.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
Bail me out of some sling.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
I got in with the judge with some appellate law
trying to suggest that I was right and whatever I did,
but he went, yeah, I've heard I looked just like
this Susan Smith park and he did, I mean, think
about it, Tara, An innocent person could have been arrested
and probably tried and convicted based on her fake composite
(09:50):
and all of her lies. Like my Herman, one of my.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
Best friends in the DA's office.
Speaker 6 (09:55):
Yeah, absolutely, I mean the crime itself was atrocious and horristic.
And and then and then you know, to give this
false profile of someone else who may have done it,
wasting resources, law enforcement resources, wasting everybody's time, but also,
like you said, putting somebody else potentially in jeopardy of
being picked up for It's just mind boggling that she
(10:18):
would go down the road.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
You know, I've dealt with a sod defense many times.
I named it that some other dude did it. Sod d.
Here she goes, some other dude did it, and listen
to her.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
Listen.
Speaker 10 (10:31):
I would like to stay to whoever has my children,
that they please they please bring.
Speaker 9 (10:41):
Them home.
Speaker 10 (10:45):
To us where they belong.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 10 (10:57):
Now.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
In one instance, she tells a love dude quote, I
don't ask for money, That's not who I am. Does
he know you're a two time killer, But if you
wanted to send me something, I can tell you how
to do it. He writes back, and says he has
absolutely sent money into her jail account. Love you, She responds, okay,
(11:20):
please somebody bring me my vomit bag. This is who
Susan Smith really is. Susan Smith murdered her boys. Doctor
Bethany Marshall joining says she's a renownced psychoanalyst at Doctorbethany
Marshall dot com. As a matter of fact, Doctor Bethany,
I don't get it. We've got men sexting and texting
(11:45):
and writing and sending money and love letters to Susan
Smith when she is a ballfaced liar that count her
children and the worst way letting her car, her Burgundy
protege go down a ramp with the two little boys
(12:05):
alive strapped in the back seat.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
Why I don't get it.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
Why would men want to be with this woman, send
her money and sex text with her? But did you
hear her lie? Do you remember when that happened? Crying
in the snotting and all that happening. And I want
to say you ever have my children? They please please
(12:33):
bring them home to us where they belong, knowing full
well they drowned strapped in their car seats.
Speaker 3 (12:42):
We'll show how immature she is at the most.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
Basic level that she wants the most. You could say
she's immature. She murdered two little boys.
Speaker 3 (12:52):
We know she's a sociopath, but what beyond the fact
that she's a sociopath, what additional factor are there that
would lead to this? And one is an over attachment
to men. She loves that feeling of falling in love,
the feeling you have.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
The first s. Are you linking this to double murder?
Why this woman did not get the death.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
Penalty, I do not know. And now there's six guys
trying to have sex with are really ill.
Speaker 3 (13:19):
Butically it's really a pathological attachment to.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
Men, like being in a barrel with with a rattlesnake.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Who was that?
Speaker 3 (13:27):
Well, apparently they do. And you know, women who couldn't
have fantasie who kill their children often have some really
First of all, they were usually what we call cluster B.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
Then or not I really have some sexy mesia going
on because I'm totally cutting your mic.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
Okay, So their cluster B, which means they have three
different disorders sociopathy, bipolar, and borderline. Often they have a
very pathological attachment to men. Either they kill the children
to get back at the object, like I'm going to
kill her children because I'm mad at you. It's hard
(14:04):
to describe this without really sounding like it's trite, but
it's These are the underpinnings of what these women do.
So it's either I'm going to kill the children to
get back at you, or I'm going to kill the
children if they found a new guy, and I don't
want the children to be in the way.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
Interesting that you said that. Interesting, But I also want
you to hear the level of detail that she waves
into her big fat lie about her two murdered little boys.
I can't even imagine. I'm more excruciating death than being
strapped in a car, can't get out.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
The car goes underwater.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
A muddy lake, and you're in the car screaming for
mommy as that car fills up with water till you drown.
Listen to our cut crime online.
Speaker 7 (15:01):
On the night of October twenty fifth, Susan Smith knocks
on the door of a house near John D. Long Lake.
She's hysterical when the man answers the door and tells
him to call the police. A black man just carjacked
her at a red light. He had a gun, and
she jumped out of the car, but her two boys,
three year old Michael and fourteen month old Alex, are
still in the car. Police begins searching immediately, and the
(15:22):
nation's media converges on Union, South Carolina for eight days.
Susan Smith tells an ever changing story of the carjacking,
and friends get irritated when she keeps asking if Tom
Findley has reached out to see her. Friends wonder why
she would care about Findley when her two children are missing.
On day nine of intense media pressure, Susan Smith meets
with Union County Sheriff Howard Wells, and Wells meets with
(15:45):
the press.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
Okay, note to sell who is Tom Finley? But there's more.
There's more.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
Listen.
Speaker 7 (15:54):
Susan Smith has carried the line as far as she can.
When she finally admits what she's done, there never was
a black man with a gun that stole her car
with their kids in the back. She now says she
went out for a drive with her sons buckled into
their car seats in the back, Feeling desperate, alone and suicidal.
She now says she drove to John D. Long Lake
and planned to roll the car into the lake. Smith
(16:14):
puts the car in neutral, but instead of going into
the lake with the car and the boys, she jumps
out and watches the car sink. Based on her directions
for where the car should be, scuba divers locate the
vehicle with the boys in the back still buckled into
their seats.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
Just let that so Kim for just one moment, claiming,
you know, why is it chrismin Gunna that all these
people that want to commit suicide end up killing their
children or their family or somebody else they miraculously live.
Speaker 8 (16:43):
I mean, just so horrific thought in of itself, right,
Nancamy Night. I actually drove the entire route that Susan
Smith took that day. There were ample opportunities for her
to change her mind and turn around. There were stop signs,
they were, you know, through residential neighborhoods. And to think
(17:05):
that she was saying to the public, you know, or
to the police when she initially confessed, well, you know,
I thought about committing suicide, but I couldn't do it,
et cetera. So I jumped out. You know, when you
go to that boat ramp where these poor little babies
are strapped in those backseats, and is that car is
going down that ramp. I would submit to you. She
(17:27):
had gotten out of that car almost immediately and let
that car go to your point a couple of minutes ago.
And as that water started to fill that vehicle, can
you imagine the horror that these children were experiencing and
the mother standing there as that vehicle started to sink.
It took about six I think between six to fifteen
(17:51):
seconds for that vehicle to hit the water and within
a minute it was submerged.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
Yamya.
Speaker 3 (17:56):
It just shows how cold blood she is. She could
stand on the shore look at the car submerged and
knowing that her babies were drowning. It really gives you
insight into how detached and just cold blooded she is.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
Yeah, who is this woman?
Speaker 2 (18:16):
Take a listen to our cut three from crime online
dot Com.
Speaker 7 (18:19):
After high school, she began dating David Smith. Soon there's
a baby on the way and the pair decided to
get married. Ultimately, they have two boys, Michael Daniel and
Alexander Tyler, but the children don't keep the marriage together.
The Smith separate several times. During one of these separations,
Susan Smith begins dating Tom Finley, the single son of
a wealthy mill owner.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
Ah, so that is who Tom Finley is, Okay, Tara Mallick,
high profile lawyer joining us from our own law from
Smith and Mallet. Would that be motive she wants to
be with this rich guy?
Speaker 1 (18:55):
Yeah, I think you know.
Speaker 6 (18:57):
Who's painted in different ways. During the trial itself, and
there was some conflicting testimony. One of the theories of
the case that was put on and suspected was that
she wanted.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
To be with Thomas Finley.
Speaker 6 (19:12):
Finley didn't like the fact that, you know, she had
two kids, and in a way or in an attempt
to get back together with Finley, who she was having
an affair with, you know, she drowned her two boys.
The other testimony that was presented during the trial was that,
you know, she was someone who was an abused child,
(19:33):
she had had a secret affair with her stepfather, she
was frightened of her husband, you know. And so I
think those details this jury ended up grappling with. And
it's the case that should have been a death penalty case,
but unfortunately not here.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
Quote she always thought it would be fun to be
on that show, and that when they put Anna Delvey
on the show, Susan felt like maybe it was the possibility.
Oh kay, I had enough of a problem with Anna Delvi,
the fake eras who conned people out of hundreds of
(20:12):
thousands of dollars. She showed up on Dancing with the Stars,
and then she blamed Dancing with the Stars for exploiting her. Okay,
just these people. I can't make this up. And now
Susan Smith is on the Dancing with the Stars train,
oh or wants to be okay before she's cast for
(20:36):
Dancing with the Stars. Can we just take a review
of the evidence?
Speaker 1 (20:40):
Isn't it true?
Speaker 2 (20:41):
Dave Mack joining us from Crime Online dot Com that
Finley broke it off with her claiming he did not
want an instant family.
Speaker 8 (20:50):
He did, and.
Speaker 7 (20:51):
Nanthy more to the point, are more than just saying
I don't want kids? There were other things he stated
in there about her and their relationship. He also cited
their different upbringings and that that was a big stumbling block.
Another one the way Susan Smith acted and flirted with
other men.
Speaker 8 (21:11):
He didn't like that, so.
Speaker 7 (21:12):
He mentioned three basic things that he really didn't want
an instant family. But these other two things were mentioned
as well, and one was her own behavior of hitting
on other men, but she dismisses that in her thought process,
blames it all on the kids and thinks she's seen
getting back if she just gets rid of that. She
doesn't address the fact that she hits on men all
the time.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
So let me understand something, Dave Matt. She met Finley,
the son of the rich guy, when she and her
husband were what divorce separated?
Speaker 7 (21:44):
What separated? They actually when they were married, they had
several full on separations where they were not living together,
were dating other people, and yet they would then get
back together, and it was on and off for I think,
I mean after they had the last time. He was
fourteen months old while this happened, so it was an
(22:04):
ongoing process in their relationship that breaking out getting back together.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
Let me get back to doctor Bethony Marshall, what do
you make of this? It was always presented that family
broke up with her because he didn't want an instant family,
But according to the letter he sent her before she
murdered her too little boys, it was a lot more
than that.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
He's probably minimizing it because now he has the scrutiny
of the country and the court and saying, well, I
didn't really want her anyway. But there's partially, I think
a half truth in that maybe he wasn't ready for
a family and children and he was contemplating that. And
I think Susan Smith was the kind of woman who
would just ignore the fact that he didn't want to
be with her. She would think, Oh, you know, i'll
(22:49):
buy any dress. Oh, i'll go shopping. Oh, i'll buy
some mistakes, I'll wear a low cut dress. Oh I'll
just kill my children. I mean just she would just
throw everything at it to get him back. So I
think if she was ambivalent about her that may have
even incentivized her to kill her children.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
Okay, I obviously need to reward my question. There were
other behaviors he found disturbing which led to his decision to.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
Break it off with her.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
Not only that he did not want an instant family,
but he did not like the way she acted promiscuously
with other guys. He didn't want that.
Speaker 3 (23:28):
I think some women relate primarily to men because they
feel they can seduce them, and I think this was
probably her mo that the minute she met a man,
she would be furicacious, she would be overly sexualized, she
would try to attract them. She probably did that all
the time because this is a way of feeling important,
(23:48):
like she's a real person in the real world, and
she doesn't really have to relate to the men. If
it's sexual in an instant then they never become real
people to her. They're all just objects, little objects who
flatter her.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
Listen, now are cut for.
Speaker 7 (24:04):
Susan Smith is planning a future with the best catch
in the county when she gets a Dear John letter
from Dear Tom. He explains he doesn't think the relationship
will work because of the difference in their upbringing, the
way she acts towards other men, and he doesn't want
an instant family. He doesn't want children right now. Susan
dismisses her upbringing or her behavior towards other men as
(24:25):
possible deal breakers in the relationship, and the only thing
she sees is Tom Finley doesn't want children.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
So she ignores everything except the children part of the complaint,
and then suddenly, poof, they're gone. In the last days,
Susan Smith back in the news, apparently having a romantic
relationship with at least six men behind bars. Okay, what
(24:53):
does that mean? Well, there are precursors to today's report
of Susan Smith's relationships with six guys. What precursors will
listener ourcut ten.
Speaker 7 (25:06):
A tabloid news report claiming Susan Smith had been beaten
by guards at a prison in South Carolina gave birth
to an investigation into the matter. While there was no
proof she had been beaten, Smith told prison investigators that
she had four sexual encounters Lieutenant Houston Cagele, a supervisor
at South Carolina's Women's Correctional Institution WCI, where she's confined.
(25:27):
Cagle admitted having sex with Smith and another prisoner and
was charged with the offense in August of two thousand.
Smith was twenty eight at the time and was disciplined
for having sex with the guard, while fifty year old
Kagel pleaded guilty and spent three months in jail. In
two thousand and one, a prison captain, Alfred Rowe, also
pleaded guilty to having sex with Smith and was sentenced
to five years probation. It was then discovered that Susan
(25:50):
Smith engaged in sexual relations with Cagel after she tested
positive for an std.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
Okay, so, she claims I was beaten and that spawns
an investigation, but it turns out she wasn't beaten. She
was sleeping with various prison guards. Just got Morgan, remind me,
what is it like to drown? You're the death investigator
one of the.
Speaker 9 (26:12):
Most horrible deaths that you can even begin to think about.
And the fact is, the thing that's always bothered me
about this case, Nancy, is that with Alex and michael on,
I think it's really important that I say their names
at this moment in time, because they are the victims.
When they were strapped in those little seats in the
(26:34):
back of that Mazda and that tight, little confined place
where maybe their mother had taken them to McDonald's before,
had taken them all over town, and suddenly they're at
the edge of a boat ramp and they're thinking, you know,
what's mama doing? Now? You know, she gets out of
the car and as that car is left and neutral
and goes down that boat ramp and begins to slowly
(26:55):
sink beneath those dark waters out there. You know, they
found that car about one hundred and twenty feet off
of the shore. The dive team had looked for it
for some period of time. Car was filled with water.
Those kids were still strapped in that back seat. And
our reaction as humans, if we're trying to catch our breath,
is to fight. And just imagine this, Nancy. They're strapped.
(27:19):
We've all got babies in our families that we've taken
care of. We strapped them in car seats. And you
ever seen a child struggle to get out of the
car seat. They're tired of being in it. Well, imagine
that only water's creeping up on you. Water's getting into
your nose, your little mouth, your eyes, You're running out
of oxygen. Your brain is screaming. It's on fire because
(27:41):
there's no oxygen. You can't catch your breath, and you
have no idea. It's panic that's setting in and it
would not have been. I just wanted to spell any
kind of fantasy somebody might be having right now that
this was a sudden and a quick death. It wasn't.
It was tortress. It was absolutely horrific what these babies
(28:04):
went through at that moment, Tom Nancy, and I'm with you.
I'm still to this day just befuddled why she's not
sitting on death row. And you know, forever and ever
she's getting going with her life. No isn't she and
those babies died, died at this monster's hands, out there
out there in that.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
Lake, knowing full well what she did, immediately running to
a nearby home, claiming that an unknown male had jumped
into her car. And I guess the only red light
in the county. And I feel okay saying that because
where I grew up that we didn't even have a
red light, So out of the entire county, an unknown
(28:46):
assailant jumps into her car at the one red light,
takes her car and murders her children. Okay, this is
the woman these guys want to be with. Speaking of them,
there's a matter of Captain Alfred Rowe. Now we heard
about Cagel Cagile, a supervisor at South Carolina Women's ci
(29:09):
Correctional Institute.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
And what happened with him.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
We know that he was ultimately identified because Susan Smith
turned up with an std behind bars. But there's more.
Take a listen to our cut eleven. Does she not
realize there are consequences to actions.
Speaker 7 (29:29):
Captain Alfred Smith was one of the guards who lost
their careers after having sex with Susan Smith behind bars.
Roe says Smith is a master manipulator, telling Inside Edition
that Smith approached him at three in the morning, telling
him she thought he was the nicest officer at the
prison and that she was lonely. The former guard says
things just escalated from there. Roe claims he only had
(29:49):
sex with Smith one time, but it cost him everything.
He was fired from the job, lost his pension, and
after pleading guilty to having sex with Smith, he was
sentenced to five years probation.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
Take a listnour Cut twelve.
Speaker 7 (30:01):
Sex isn't the only issue Susan Smith has faced in prison.
Twice in twenty ten and once in twenty fifteen, Susan
Smith was disciplined on drug charges, losing privileges for more
than a year. Susan Smith's drug use escalated when she
switched prisons from Camille Graham Correctional Center in Columbia, South Carolina,
to Leath Correctional Institution in Greenwood, South Carolina. Former prison
(30:22):
guard Alfred Rowe, who pleaded guilty to having sex with
Smith at the prison, told the TV show Sellmate Secrets.
When Smith was moved from one prison to another, that
it was at that point where quote she could no
longer get the mail attention that she used as a
drug unquote and instead turned to pill.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
Which led to a series of drug infractions.
Speaker 1 (30:45):
Crime stores with Nancy Grace. To another guy, Susan.
Speaker 2 (30:52):
Smith writes, behind bar, she's raking in thousands of dollars
a month. She spends hours on the phone having phone sex,
sending over twenty texts a day to these guys. Quote,
I want to be with you when I get out.
I think we all know what that means. Thank you
for the funds, they will come in handy. What is
she doing with the money behind bars? What can you
(31:14):
really even do with that? Her little boys, Michael and Alexander,
were strapped into the car by their seat belts when
they were drowned, screaming for mommy. That's the last human
face they saw. As she rolled the car into a lake.
She asked another guy if he would support her when
she was paroled. Then he does this big spreadsheet. Listen
(31:37):
to what this guy says, quote, I'll tell you what
I did last night thinking of you. I'm sure he
was thinking of you.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (31:45):
I can't even describe what he was doing while he
was thinking of her. I made a spreadsheet that starts
out with two hundred and thirteen thousand dollars, you're gonna
have more than that. I think you'll be in the
two hundred and twenty thousand dollars range. All put together,
you can spend forty thousand a year while you're withdrawing
from that balance. It's still earning interest on the undrawn amount.
(32:09):
In twenty years, you will have spent most of that,
but you'll still have some left. Smith sighs after a
pause and says, I love you so much. He says,
I love you too, and then they make kissy sounds. Okay, quick,
bring back the vomit bag. This is so Susan Smith
(32:32):
really is the narrative, her story that she projects is
so different from reality. Life has not passed her by.
She committed double murder. That that's what happened. It's not
anyone's fault but her own.
Speaker 3 (32:51):
Absolutely.
Speaker 6 (32:52):
I mean, and if life.
Speaker 3 (32:54):
Has passed her by, how does she.
Speaker 6 (32:57):
Characterize what she did to her stife. She took their
life away. They didn't even have the opportunity to live
a life. I mean, these were really young kids here,
and I think you know the pattern of behavior that
she's exhibited, like the infractions that she's picked up while
she's been in prison. I mean, all of this doesn't
(33:18):
tend to show that this is someone who has been
rehabilitated while in prison. I mean, she's still showing those
signs of manipulation that you know she engaged in before
she was convicted in Sensus, you know, leading on the
nation for nine days, telling lies about what actually happened,
telling lies and bringing fingers of people that didn't exist.
Speaker 3 (33:40):
So this is a really deeply disturbed individual.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
Chris mc dunna with me, a former homicide detective and
host of YouTube channel The Interview Room who has investigated
at least three hundred homicides. You know, defendants can be very,
very charming. Think about Scott Peterson or doctor Martin McNeil,
who killed his wife, a beauty queen. According to Susan
(34:07):
Smith's family, they say, quote she seems to be happy,
and that she quote always had a messy love life.
She's creating a fictional version of her life and people
are buying it. These guys, these lonely hearts, are buying
(34:29):
it and attempting to have let me just say, romantic
interludes with her. Chris McDonough. Have you ever met a
charming murder defendant, because I have absolutely Nancy.
Speaker 8 (34:42):
And what's interesting about her is we have to always
remember that all behavior has a purpose, and that past
behavior is usually an indication of future behavior. So she
has always, throughout her entire case and through her life
here while in prison and even before prison, she always
(35:05):
sometimes projected the words of day into her vocabulary. And
if we listen real carefully to the minutia of what
she said in the very beginning, whoever they are, please
bring them home. She's talking about two suspects, but she
(35:26):
talks about one in terms of a description. And now
if we fast forward that to today, we have six
individuals men who quite frankly, I can't figure that piece
of a puzzle out.
Speaker 10 (35:40):
You know.
Speaker 8 (35:40):
That's that's for the doctors to tell us what that's
all about. But she is utilizing that behavior still to
this day, by talking about money, by talking about sexual
you know, TIFFs there between the two of them, and
she hasn't lost a thought from miss Leopard, you know.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
Just Scott Morgan, maybe we just know too much when
it comes to murder, because when I think of Susan Smith,
I immediately think of being trapped strapped in to a car
as it's going down a ramp and going underwater and
seeing the water coming up on either side and starting
to pour in through the windshields. It comes up around
(36:27):
you and you can't get out. I mean, the children
in this case were three and fourteen months.
Speaker 9 (36:35):
They never had stood a chance within this environment. And
here's another thing that people might not be aware of.
After that car dip beneath the surface of that water,
one other element we have to consider. And again I
go back to the idea that we all have had babies,
(36:57):
you know, parents, that sort of thing. I've got yous
and grandkids whom.
Speaker 1 (37:01):
I love dearly.
Speaker 9 (37:02):
And what is it the kids are afraid of late
at night? It's darkness, and it would you would not
have been able to have seen your hand in front
of your face. So not only are they absent a
loving mother who normally you would hope would take care
of them, they're they're disoriented, they're running out of breath,
and it's dark, Nancy, it's cold and it's dark down there.
(37:26):
And that's that goes to the level of horror that
they're that they're you know, experiencing Susan Smith.
Speaker 2 (37:34):
Just go ahead and rake in all the money you want,
but good luck enjoying it behind bars. Do you ever
even think of your two little boys that you murdered?
I do, Nancy Grace, signing off, good night friend,
Host
Nancy Grace
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.