February 27, 2025 • 41 mins
11:16 p.m. Saturday. Princeton police respond to a 911 call about a dead body and a fire in an apartment building. The caller remains cryptic, refusing to answer the dispatcher’s questions about who is dead, why they are dead, or who owns the apartment.
Police and first responders surround the building, but nothing prepares them for what they find inside.
Matthew Hertgen, 31, answers the door. Inside, officers see a bloody, unresponsive young man with blunt force and laceration injuries covering his body. He is pronounced dead at the scene. Investigators note that one of his eyes has been removed. Nearby, they find a bloody plate, fork, and knife. Officers also discover a bloody golf club and what appears to be the charred remains of a cat. The victim is identified as 26-year-old Joseph Hertgen.
Matthew Hertgen is immediately arrested for the murder of his younger brother. The discovery of the bloody plate leads police to believe that, in addition to beating Joseph to death, Hertgen ate his eye. Princeton police have not disclosed a possible motive for the attack. Hertgen is also charged with animal cruelty and possession of a weapon during a violent crime.
The Princeton community is stunned. Residents describe Joseph’s death as devastating and tragic. A police source says no one could have foreseen such violence. Matthew Hertgen, they say, came from what appeared to be a stable, all-American family, with no signs he was capable of such brutality—especially against his own brother.
Joining Nancy Grace today:
- Sam Bassett - Criminal Defense Attorney at Minton, Bassett, Flores & Carsey, Former President of the Texas Criminal Defense Lawyers Educational Institute, Long-Time Faculty member of the Texas Criminal Trial College (Huntsville, TX), MBFC.com, Facebook: MintonBassett, Instagram: @MBFC_Law
- Dr. Jeff Kieliszewski - Forensic Psychologist, Author: “Darksides;" YouTube: "Dr. Jeff Kieliszewski, Forensic Psychologist"
- Fil Waters - Former homicide detective for the Houston Police Department, President & CEO of Kindred spirits Investigations & Security, Inc.
- Dr. Jan Gorniak - Former Medical Examiner, Clark County Office of the Coroner/Medical Examiner (Las Vegas, NV), Board Certified Forensic Pathologist, World Peace Forensic Consulting, LLC
- Karen Wall - Senior Local Editor at Patch Media [covering the Jersey Shore region], Website: patch.com; X: @karenwall1966, Facebook: karen.e.wall,
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. According to cops, a prep
school grad now thirty one. Some would say a rich,
spoiled brat uses a golf club to kill his own
little brother and the family cat and their six thousand,
(00:25):
three hundred dollars a month apartment.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Prep school grad now thirty one, according to cops, uses
a golf club to murder his own brother and the
family cat and their lux apartment. I'm Nancy Grace. This
is crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
Tragedy on fools in the preppy college town of Princeton,
New Jersey, when ex university a Michigan Sunker star Joseph
Hertkin is found dead in his apartment.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
How can this be an and idealic setting? Money rolling
in money right there in the shadows of an ivy
league institution. One brother allegedly clubs the other brother dead
with the golf club, then stabs him multiple times, and
(01:20):
then murders the family cat.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
Listen, flashing lights and cyberns break the usual silence outside
the luxury Michelle Muse's apartments just off Princeton University campus.
Around eleven to fifteen pm, police answer a nine to
one one call to the nearly seven thousand dollars a
month complex reporting a death in a fire. Units in
the building sell for as much as two million dollars.
As responders arrive, flames are not visible, and police work
(01:43):
to gain access to the building.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
True words are never spoken.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Money can't buy love or happiness a seven thousand dollars
a month apartment, and they can't be happy.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
With every luxury they could be provided.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Still, brother kills brother, a story as old as Genesis.
Joining me an all star panel to make sense of
what we are learning tonight, Straight out to Karen wall Sing,
your local editor Patch Media.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Karen, thank you for being with us.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
First of all, can you describe where this occurred.
Speaker 5 (02:20):
This apartment is in on the middle of a very
new complex. These apartments were built in twenty nineteen, it appears,
and they're right in the middle of Palmer Square, which
is high end shops. The whole block where they are
is essentially self contained. The apartment isn't accessible directly from
(02:46):
the street. You have to go through an archway to
get into it.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
When you say luxury shops, what do you mean by that?
Speaker 5 (02:51):
We're talking high end boutiques, you know, where you're not
walking in there unless you're pulling down thousands of dollars
a month in income.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
You know, it's amazing to me to look at all
these photos, and guys, we're getting these photos that you're
seeing right there off of there the family's social media.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
That's where we're learning.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
So much about these two soccer star brothers now one dead.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
You know Phil Waters help me out here. Phil Waters.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Guys you know him well, Former homicide detective for Houston PD,
president's CEO Kindred Spirits Investigations. Phil, I mean, I've been
in so many housing projects of Trump through crack houses, brothels,
for lack of a better word, you name it, under bridges,
(03:40):
and strip clubs where murders go down. But really you're
looking down at what Brooks brothers and Ann Taylor that's
probably not pause enough actually with and these people still with.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
All of that, they still have to kill each other.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
I mean, these two were soccer stars at preppy schools,
bringing in tons of money, silver spoon, the works.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
What is wrong with these people?
Speaker 6 (04:07):
Well, it just goes to show that people with money
still have problems like the rest of us, as you've
already thought.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
Wait, Phil, okay, don't start it off wrong, then okay.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Problems, yeah, problems. But I don't have the.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
Problem that I want to murder a family member and
our cat and dog and guinea pig.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
I don't have that. I don't call that really a problem.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
I call a problem an illness, a family member with
maybe an addiction, going broke and losing your home and
living under a bridge, those are problems. The urge, the
sudden urge to club your brother dead with a golf
club then stab.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
Him, I don't call that a problem. I call that
premeditation and murderous intent.
Speaker 6 (04:53):
Well, I would have to say that is something like
this regardless of the setting. It doesn't happen in a vacuum.
And what I have noticed that if I have a
case like this, in all my cases that I always
put together a psychological autopsy on the suspect, because when
I get them in the interview room, I want to
be able to address the wise behind the act. And
(05:14):
in this particular case, the one thing I've noticed is
that in the description in the media of these two men,
the younger brother the victim. Here Joseph has always described
in his great successes in high school and his great
successes in college at the University of Michigan with the soccer,
(05:38):
with his academics, and then his success with his job,
the work that he's been involved in. And then when
you talk about the description of the brother the suspect
in this case, it just says he played soccer at Wesleyan.
So there is a real backstory here that is yet
(06:01):
to develop. But I would tell you that this didn't happen.
This was not an instant decision. This is something that
has been building, building, building, and this is, you know,
what we would call a smoking gun case. Well, in
this case, it's a smoking golf club.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
No, no to everything you just said. All of what
you just said may very well be true. Okay, may
be true, but what you are describing is a motive
for murder, and that motive is jealousy. I still don't
see that as a problem that we all have a
(06:38):
family problem that would lead to a drastic act.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
In my mind, would be something severe or not.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
You're jealous of your little brother, because yeah, did you
on the soccer field? And speaking of jealousy in this
case to especial guests joining us, Sam Bassett, renowned criminal
defense attorney, at Minton, Bassett, Flores and Carsey, And let
me add former president of the Texas Criminal Defense Lawyers
(07:07):
Educational Institute, Sam, I hear everything fil just said, and
he may be factually one hundred percent accurate. But about
five years into prosecuting nothing but violent crime, I was
looking over at a defense a killer, a murderer, and
it wasn't his first time, and I thought, why why
(07:30):
would he leave such a wake of pain behind him
over nothing?
Speaker 2 (07:35):
And then it hit me five years it took me
why ask why?
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Because the state never has to prove motive, does it,
Sam Bassett?
Speaker 7 (07:45):
It does not.
Speaker 8 (07:46):
I think this case kind of has a resonating theme
in Texas. A few years ago we had a Clay
case where the defense put on an expert to talk
about the affluenza, the psychological effect of well health and
privilege on a young man who had committed a crime
and to try to mitigate the responsibility. Now that fell
(08:08):
on unsympathetic ears for ninety percent of the public, because
it's hard to stomach, as you said, it's hard to
stomach how somebody with all these.
Speaker 7 (08:19):
Privileges and all these.
Speaker 8 (08:21):
Blessings could do something like this. And I think you
have to begin to peel the onion skin layers and
try to understand what was going on inside this older
brother's head.
Speaker 7 (08:31):
Other than just jealousy.
Speaker 8 (08:34):
It has to be something even worse.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
You just said, the state doesn't have to prove motive.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
Why do I have to get in his head and
look around in there to figure out why he brutally
murdered his brother and the family cat.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
Now you were referring to a.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
Defense called afluenza when typically an adult manchild is so
eased to a silver spoon in his mouth that he
can't relate to real life. Now, see right now, you're
barking up the wrong tree. My dad worked the swing
shift for the railroad my whole life, and my mom
(09:12):
started off as a bank teller. All right, So the
whole affluenza I'm too rich to be held accountable thing
is not working right here. But speaking of the affluenza teen,
he was not a teen. But the affluenza defense you're
referring to Ethan Couch, I remember him well, a Terran
County case.
Speaker 6 (09:32):
Listen, ar Kenny and I one, what is your ask emergency?
Speaker 2 (09:37):
The record Road really need some Manbuel that we flipped.
Speaker 7 (09:42):
And so again, Okay, were you involved.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
In the truck?
Speaker 9 (09:49):
Okay, you're in this truck.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
Are you injured? We just like to how many people
are injured?
Speaker 3 (09:58):
Just for my record, If you don't know how many
people would injured, we're.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
That's him, Ethan Couch.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
He flipped his souped up truck, killing three, killing three,
including a youth minister on the side of the road,
trying to change a woman's flat tire, and permanently, permanently
paralyzing another victim.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
And take a listen to the sentence.
Speaker 9 (10:31):
Look at my brother.
Speaker 10 (10:32):
He's doing more than a twenty eight day period one
twenty eight or whatever.
Speaker 9 (10:36):
He's doing more than ten years of probation.
Speaker 4 (10:39):
Ethan Couch is such a spoiled child. When he kills
four people while driving under the influence of drugs and
speeding through a residential area, his attorney creates a special
defense for him due to his affluenza and placed the
blame for the car crash and the deaths squarely on
the shoulders of his parents for never punishing him for
anything he does wrong and giving him everything he wants.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
If it had been prosecuted for murder, he'd be in
jail right now as it was, it was a lesser volunteery.
He could have gotten twenty years behind bars on each count.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
But what did he get?
Speaker 1 (11:13):
An unspecified sentence to a treatment facility. He goes on
the run and he's found with his mother hold up
in a five star resort in Mexico. He was caught
ordering room service, ordering pizza. Okay, him ethan couch.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
You brought it up.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
I didn't affluenza. And that's what we're seeing here as well.
When you heard from Alex Molina, the brother of the
permanently paralyzed Sergio Molina, that was from our friends at
Fort Worth Star Telegram.
Speaker 11 (11:54):
Back to this case, listen eleven sixteen pm Saturday night,
Princeton Police receiving that one one call about a dead
body and a fire in an apartment building. The caller,
Matthew Hurkin, remains cryptic on the phone, not answering the
dispatcher's questions about who is dead, why they are dead,
who owns the apartment? And more police and first responders
(12:16):
surround the building. But nothing could have prepared officers for
what they found inside.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
Two our friend Karen Wool joining us from Patch Media.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
What did they find inside Karen.
Speaker 5 (12:29):
Reporting says that they found Joseph dead, the family cat dead,
and they found a bloody knife plate, and Joseph's eyeball missing.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
The cat apparently had been set on fire.
Speaker 5 (12:47):
We are working to confirm those details of passions.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
Twenty six year old University of Michigan grad soccer prodigy
Joseph Herkin is found dead along with his cat in
a fiery blaze at his New Jersey apartment.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
Is this a case of simple sibling rivalry?
Speaker 1 (13:10):
According to Phil joining us right now, Phil Waters, veteran
homicide detective, it was a rage attack. Why do you
say that, Well, just.
Speaker 7 (13:19):
The scene itself.
Speaker 6 (13:20):
When I walk into a scene like this, the first
thing that's going to stick out to me is it's overkill.
Speaker 7 (13:27):
You know, this use of a.
Speaker 6 (13:28):
Golf club and a knife and the condition of the
body of the victim.
Speaker 7 (13:33):
And then you've got.
Speaker 6 (13:34):
This this subtext over here with the killing of the cat.
So there's some kind of symbolism here between everything that
happened in that scene. This is one of these things
where as I walked in any scene, I let it
talk to me. I want to take a look at
it and what are these things indicate to me about
what happened in this moment in time in that apartment.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
Doctor jan Gorniac is joining us renowned former medical examiner
at the Clark County Office of Medical Examiners at Vegas.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
Never lack of business.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
She's seen more dead bodies than probably all of us
put together, even having visited many crime saying, doctor Gorniac,
thank you for being with us. Do you agree with
Phil's assessment, Phil Waters that this is a rage attack?
Speaker 2 (14:21):
If so, why I.
Speaker 10 (14:22):
Am not sure I can agree with that because that's
outside of my lane.
Speaker 9 (14:27):
So as a frontic pathologist or a.
Speaker 10 (14:28):
Death investigator, we go in and we note the injuries
that we see, but to categorize it as a rage,
that's not what we typically do. But I can understand
why Philis is saying that an overkilled because the use
of more than one weapon, a golf club and a
(14:50):
sharkforce instrument as the nice.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
Well, I'm curious, doctor Gorniac, when you say overkill. What
do you mean by that? What here lazy to call
it overkill?
Speaker 10 (15:03):
Well, the use of more than one weapon. So you
have a blunt object, which is the golf club, and
then you have a sharp force weapon which is a knife.
I'm not sure exactly what injuries he has, but it
sounds like most of them are from the golf club.
I've done plenty of cases, both blunt force injuries and
(15:24):
sharp force injuries. Sometimes you have one stab wound and
someone is dead. Sometimes you have ninety six, so depending
on that or just a number of wounds that you
can take a golf club and strike somebody in the
head one time and cause their death, or you strike
them about the body and not only do they have
head injury, but they have chest injury, heart lacerations, liver lacerations.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
Doctor Gorniac, Have you ever seen a murder victim that
had a body part gouged out as in this case?
Speaker 9 (15:52):
I have not been twenty years. I've been practicing.
Speaker 10 (15:56):
I've had dismembered bodies, but to go would out and
I in this case, I.
Speaker 9 (16:05):
Think that would have given me the willies.
Speaker 10 (16:06):
If I was at that scene, because I mean, I've
seen a lot, but that probably would have been a
little bit too much for me.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
You know.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
I want to go to doctor Jeff Kalshewsky again, Doctor Jeff.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
Why and criminal law doesn't matter? Now?
Speaker 1 (16:22):
Practically speaking? It does actually because a jury wants to
hear what's the motive?
Speaker 2 (16:28):
Right? They want to hear?
Speaker 1 (16:30):
Could you describe what is the middle child syndrome? The
alleged killer. The brother in this case was the middle child.
The older brother superstar. The younger brother eclipsed the suspect
in every way.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
He himself was a shining star.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
He played soccer at a really ritzy prep school in
Tom's River.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
He went on to play.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
Soccer a starting soccer player for another elit prep school, Wesleyan.
I guess that wasn't enough to satisfy his ego.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
Whats with the middle child syndrome?
Speaker 12 (17:14):
Well, there's this stereotype that the middle child gets less attention,
so that they have to do things to get more attention.
But this is clearly beyond a middle child who's jealous
of a little brother. There's a lot more going on
in this case than that. Just when we talked earlier
about using a golf club and then a knife, we
(17:37):
talked about is this a rage killing.
Speaker 7 (17:40):
There's more going on than this.
Speaker 12 (17:41):
You know, someone uses a golf club, and I've had
plenty of cases where people have used golf clubs and
gaged out eyes and said pets on fire. Believe it
or not, the golf club can't kill you, but it's
usually it can be on one hip, but it's not
a very efficient murder weapon. So for what we talked
about already, in this case, this killer was obviously into
(18:03):
the experience of the murder, took it a step further.
Wh're gouging out eyeballs. This is an experience rather than
just aim I want to off my brother that I'm
jealous of, and then the idea of setting the cat
on fire again. For some reason, this person is carrying
out these acts and these murders for the experience rather
(18:25):
than just the motivation or the aim that I want
to off my little brother who I'm jealous of.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
Okay, Kellashowski, hold on, I'm just a JD. I'm not
a forensic psychologist like yourself. Author of Dark Sides on YouTube,
doctor Jeff Kalashewsky, forensic psychologist, doctor Jeff the experience. We've
been analyzing that theory in depth when it relates to
(18:51):
Brian Koberger, the pad criminology student out at Pullman in
Washington State, and the working theory is that with no
connection to the four murdered college students, murdered in their
own beds in the wee hours of the morning before
(19:14):
Thanksgiving break because he was obsessed with the experience. He
had been asking in a study for his PhD, asking
violent felons a questionnaire like, what did you feel just
before you committed the crime? What were you thinking, what
(19:36):
were you feeling? What went through your mind? What did
it feel like when you identified your quote target? How
did you feel during it? Were you cognizant of finding
a way out or a quick exit? In retrospect, how
do you feel about what you experienced during the crime.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
He was obsessed with it, then.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
Carefully plotted and planned the murders and then carry them out.
Many people thinking his desire was the experience to know
what it feels like to kill someone. What are you
talking about? In this case the middle child syndrome. The
(20:17):
middle child wants the experience of gouging his little brother's
eyeball out.
Speaker 12 (20:23):
For some reason, he does because, again, if this was
a simple, straightforward I hate my brother and I'm going
to kill him, like you said, that goes all the
way back to Genesis, it would have been done a
lot more efficiently, and it would have not taken us
long and this experience of using a couple murder weapons,
gouging the eyeball, setting the cat on fire.
Speaker 7 (20:44):
There's more here.
Speaker 12 (20:45):
Than just a straightforward murder with a motivation of jealousy
or just a hate of your brother.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
Hey, doctor Jeff Kalsowski, listen to this. The of course,
cause of death for Joseph is pending autopsy, but we
know he was bludgeon According to police sources that spoke
to the Post, Matthew played.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
Now this is the suspect. Brother.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
Matthew Hurtkin, now thirty one, no longer a fresh shied,
fresh faced, bright eyed team playing soccer.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
He's a grown man, I bet you.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
Anything, living off his mom and dad, but that remains
to be seen. He played soccer at Tom's River North
High School and went on to play at the elite
Wesleyan University in Connecticut. Okay, so he played college soccer.
That's a big deal. That's hard to do. Very few
people make it onto a starting college sports team. I
(21:44):
don't care how great you are in little league, You're
probably not going to make it onto a college team.
He did, and he played on the college team for
years at Wesleyan.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
Was that not enough? For his ego.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
Then comes along Little Brother, a three time academic All
Big Ten soccer player played at University Michigan twenty sixteen
to twenty nineteen. He the Little Brother now murdered high school,
two time MVP off as.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
A Player of the Year, graduated.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
From the Stephen m Ross School of Business, and had
a career in asset management. Per the News now hold on,
Phil Waters was describing these two brothers, and there's an
older brother, by the way, an older brother, Joseph Hertgan,
who is a shining star in his career. Phil Waters,
(22:41):
you were talking about how you just couldn't find that
much about the alleged killer. Nobody can we find out
a lot about the victim. We found out a lot
about the older brother, but not much about the alleged
killer brother.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
Phil, You're right, well, I'll.
Speaker 7 (22:59):
Tell you what. It's just an indication.
Speaker 6 (23:01):
And again, and I'm looking at this thing as a
homicide cop walking into this scene.
Speaker 7 (23:05):
I agree with the doctor to the good degree.
Speaker 6 (23:08):
That once he started the killing, that he was getting
into the experience. And look, it started that this fuse
started burning a long time ago, in my opinion, and
it finally got to the point where something happened in
that apartment that day between he and his brother that
(23:30):
finally blew the lid off of this thing. And so again,
these things don't happen in a vacuum.
Speaker 7 (23:36):
I just think it is it's.
Speaker 6 (23:40):
I think there's more to it than just a simple jealousy.
This is something that is built and built and built
over years from a lot of different directions. And I
think the fact that we know very little about the
suspect in this case to me as a homicide cop,
as an indicator, That's why I would want to get
him in an interview room and delved into where does
(24:02):
this start and how did it manifest itself into this
brutal evil killing of his brother?
Speaker 1 (24:09):
Did a college soccer star murder his little brother, also
a college soccer star in their rise the apartment Listen?
Speaker 4 (24:18):
At the University of Michigan, Joseph Hertkin continues to receive
awards for academic excellence off the field. Hurkin major's in
Business Administration, Accounting and Finance graduates with honors and lands
a job as an analyst for Locus Point Capital.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
Wow, what you were seeing is from that we are
soccer at Michigan Facebook page The Little Brother Now did
a shining star Listen.
Speaker 4 (24:42):
A former college soccer player is being charged with brutally
murdering his younger brother and setting their family cat on
fire in a ritzy apartment just steps from Princeton University.
Thirty one year old Matthew Herkan is now in police
custody in Mercer County, New Jersey, after reportedly using a
golf club and a kitchen knife to bludgeon maybe brother
Joseph Hurkin, who is an even more successful athlete, to death.
(25:04):
Police sources say the youngest Hurricane was missing an eye
and a bloody plate and fork were found not far
from his body.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
Straight out to Sam Bassie joining us, a veteran trial
lawyer out of Texas, what do you make of the
fact that both murder weapons were readily accessible. It's not like, again,
let's hues coburger, he had to buy the murder weapon.
Who is presumed innocent until proven guilty by the way,
he had to buy the murder weapon on Amazon and
(25:33):
stealthily sneak over to the murder scene. In this case,
both weapons were right there, the golf club and the knife.
That actually adds to the legal formula here.
Speaker 7 (25:47):
I think it does.
Speaker 8 (25:48):
I think it adds to the speculation that it might
have been a rage attack, something that triggered him to
be really angry at his brother and just go off
on him and he just didn't stop too.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
Doctor Jan Gorney, a former medical examiner in Vegas Gorniac
way in.
Speaker 10 (26:04):
So we were talking before about the eye gouging being
post mortem.
Speaker 9 (26:09):
I believe it post mortem.
Speaker 10 (26:10):
It didn't happen during the fight because as humans, we're
gonna fight. We're gonna fight back. Also, where I said,
it's also it's I guess my job is easier than
the detectives or the attorneys because we're just involved with
the cause and the manner of death. So we know
the cause, you know, blunt force injury, sharp force injuries.
(26:32):
The manner of death is homicide. We don't deal in
with the whys, but as humans we always want to know. So,
but we're sitting here trying to rationalize irrational behavior.
Speaker 9 (26:45):
And but that's what we do.
Speaker 10 (26:46):
We because it doesn't make sense, so we're trying to
make sense of it and try to come up with
a story. But I also have to say we haven't
talked about mental health. I think mental health plays a
big role in this case. We don't know his mental status.
Maybe he, like you said, didn't get along with his brother,
(27:07):
but there could be some underlying mental health issues that
he is undiagnosed, untreated.
Speaker 9 (27:13):
But there's something else definitely going on.
Speaker 1 (27:15):
Joining me is a renowned for a medical examiner, doctor Gorniac.
Did you specialize at any point in psychiatry or psychology?
Speaker 9 (27:25):
I did not.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
I did not, Okay, But yet you are saying there's
a mental health issue. Can I ask you do you
have a scentilla of evidence such as a prior diagnosis,
treatment prescriptions from a doctor that he may he the
alleged killer, may have had. Do you know anything at
all regarding that.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
I don't.
Speaker 10 (27:47):
I'm just putting it another layer into the why because
we're trying to figure out what's the case.
Speaker 1 (27:54):
So you know nothing at all about his mental health.
Yet you are because he killed his brother and gouts
his eye out, that he must have a mental illness.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
Is that in your supposition? That is not it?
Speaker 10 (28:09):
I said, we cannot not think about it. We have
to think about it. We're thinking about everything else. But
we do have a mental health issue in this country
that there's a lot of people that aren't treated, and
we have to make sure that that's not it's not
the why, it's not an excuse. But this obviously is
not normal behavior.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
You.
Speaker 9 (28:29):
I mean, I grew up with.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
A sister, Doctor Gorniat.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
Yet again, we doctor Gorney, be half of all murder
victims across our country.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
Do you believe murdering.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
Anyone, let's just say, an infant lying in its crib.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
Do you think that no normal behavior? Okay?
Speaker 1 (28:48):
No, then somehow, because the eyes gouged out, you are
saying that he may, with no evidence whatsoever, have a
mental health issue. And in my world, what that means
is he will go to a treatment facility and ultimately
walk free in about eighteen months.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
That's what vig means. Dr Gorniac.
Speaker 9 (29:10):
No, No, that's not what I'm saying.
Speaker 10 (29:12):
So because there's also you have and I'm not a lawyer,
I don't try cases, but I know there's things about
guilty by reason of insanity.
Speaker 9 (29:19):
I'm not saying he's insane, but there has to be.
We can't none.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
Why did you bring it up?
Speaker 9 (29:24):
There's things I bought you.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
Not saying, then why did you bring it up?
Speaker 9 (29:31):
Joining me.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
With Patch Media. Karen, isn't it true? And this is
a lightning round, Karen, isn't it true that the alleged killer,
the brother the middle child, called nine one one?
Speaker 2 (29:45):
Isn't that true? Yes? Yes, he called nine one one?
Speaker 1 (29:49):
And isn't it also true when the police arrived he
opened the door and essentially led them according to the
post to there's the body right?
Speaker 2 (29:59):
Yes?
Speaker 6 (30:00):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (30:01):
A family tragedy in New Jersey, a Princeton murder suspect
kills his younger brother and his cat with a knife
and golf club.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
So curious if he had the wherewithal to know what
he did was wrong.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
And report it to nine one one.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
An usher in the police, Sam Bassett, This is a
yes no, because I.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
Know you're going to want to argue this till you're
blue in the face.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
But isn't our law In the American jurisprudence insanity is
based on the old McNaughton rule that was brought over
in our common law from Great Britain.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
And the McNaughton rule of insanity.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
Is litmus, and it is did Purp know right from
wrong at the time of the incident, not now that
he's lawyered up and they're saying, hey, that crazy. At
the time of the incident, he had the wherewithal to
know what he did was wrong and call nine one
one and bring in the police.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
Isn't that true?
Speaker 8 (31:07):
That is true?
Speaker 2 (31:09):
Call is not I knew you were going to say
something else, but go ahead.
Speaker 8 (31:12):
Call is an indicative that he knew what was going on.
Speaker 7 (31:16):
But you have to look beyond that.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
Crime stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
To doctor gorneyat no offense because I consider your friend
and a colleague. But I don't tell you how to
perform an autopsy. Do I have I ever told you
how to perform an autopsy?
Speaker 7 (31:42):
No?
Speaker 9 (31:43):
As But I'm also a physician. I'm not just an autopsyist.
Speaker 10 (31:47):
I am a doctor first, So when I do autopsies,
we look at not only I mean, obviously I'm not
going to say whether someone is guilty or not. I
also have to look at the medical.
Speaker 9 (32:00):
History social history of my patient also, So.
Speaker 10 (32:04):
Your pain to say that my patient, right, I will.
Speaker 9 (32:09):
I'm not You're.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
Talking about mental health issue on the alleged killer. That's
not your patient, is it.
Speaker 9 (32:15):
It's not?
Speaker 10 (32:16):
But I'm saying I'm saying he's crazy mental I have anxiety.
Speaker 9 (32:20):
That is a mental health disorder.
Speaker 10 (32:23):
Honestly anxiety right now, But I'm saying so depression, anxiety,
personality disorder. But there's there's something else in my opinion,
right And I'm not diagnosing. I'm not saying he's insane.
I'm not saying he didn't know right from wrong. But
it's part of You're trying to figure out what else
is in his history? So what else is in his history?
(32:45):
And I think medical mental social history is very important
when you're going to look at the totality of why
someone did something.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
How about his main as hell and he is consumed mind, body,
and soul with decades of jealousy for his shining star
little brother.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
What about that's not a mental illness?
Speaker 10 (33:10):
But well maybe it's a coping Why isn't he Why
isn't he able to cope with that?
Speaker 9 (33:14):
Why isn't he able to.
Speaker 10 (33:16):
Say congratulations there and not be that jealous?
Speaker 2 (33:19):
I understand, I understand that.
Speaker 9 (33:20):
I'm not arguing.
Speaker 2 (33:21):
I might say I get it.
Speaker 10 (33:23):
But I'm just saying we're trying to rationalize irrational behavior.
And I'm just saying there's many layers to everybody, and
we have to look at his social history.
Speaker 9 (33:33):
You know, does he abuse drugs? I don't know. Does
he use alcohol?
Speaker 2 (33:38):
We don't know that.
Speaker 13 (33:38):
We child, my goodness, we have no evidence of drug
ins And just f y before you burn that out again,
voluntary use of drugs or alcohol are not a defense
under the mad I don't care.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
If he does not have a drug problem.
Speaker 1 (33:56):
I don't care if he drinks himself silly breakfast, lunch
and dinner. That is not an excuse. How about this,
Kalashewski consumed with jealousy starting from day one, when that child,
the baby brother, the murder victim.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
Is brought home from the hospital.
Speaker 1 (34:15):
And Mommy's loving on it and daddy's loving on it,
and then he gets outshined at the soccer field, he
gets outshined in school.
Speaker 2 (34:23):
The brother gets this great job. He doesn't.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
In fact, can I see the picture the alleged killer
posted the day before the murder.
Speaker 2 (34:34):
While the brother's.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
Out working, the murder victim, the purpose at home taking
selfies of him.
Speaker 2 (34:41):
With a cat toy. There you go, this is him.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
While the brother is out making a living, he's at
home taking selfies with a cat toy.
Speaker 12 (34:53):
Kalashevski, Well, the bottom line is, and I think the
medical examiner was getting into this. It's not usual for
her to do an autopsy and a murder victim where
the eye's been gouged out, likely post mortem, So you
can go with the theory of this is a jealous
brother rage. But there's a lot of weird stuff going
(35:15):
on beyond just a murder that happened, and I think
those are the things that people are noticing more than
the straightforward murder case. And I think that's why these
questions of mental health comes up because of these sort
of unusual, weird things are outside of just a normal
I'm jealous of my brother and I hate him, and I'm.
Speaker 7 (35:32):
Going to kill him.
Speaker 3 (35:34):
I think he's dead.
Speaker 9 (35:37):
He's been shot. He's been shot.
Speaker 3 (35:39):
Yes, hello, ma'am, you said your husband was shot? Yes,
how long ago?
Speaker 2 (35:44):
Probably ten fifteen minutes ago, ten minutes ago, maybe ten
minutes ago. He was shot maybe fifteen by whome my
son who's nuts, But I didn't.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
Know he was just nuts. Another spoiled rich brought preppy killer.
That one is Thomas Gilbert Junior, who guns down his father,
sends his mom out for a sandwich, and mommy trots
off to the deli, and while she's gone, he guns
down Dad because Dad finally was going to cut off
(36:13):
his allowance Thomas Gilbert Jr. And now we've got another
spoiled rich Bratt who murders his brother.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
Now a lot.
Speaker 1 (36:23):
Has been made even of our renowned medical examiner, doctor
Jan Gorniac, who ventures to guess maybe he is mentally ill,
maybe he has a drug or alcohol problem, or maybe
he's consumed with jealousy and finally kills his roommate, his.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
Own little brother.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
Karen Wall, what can you tell me about the alleged
killer's poetry?
Speaker 2 (36:48):
But first, hold.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
On, I've taken the liberty of recording some of it.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
Listen, is that your voice?
Speaker 11 (36:54):
Or is that my voice? Was that the work of
my hands?
Speaker 2 (36:58):
Or was that the work of your hand?
Speaker 11 (37:00):
Hands? Do you like to watch me suffer? Do you
like to crush me with pain? It disturbingly continues. Now,
what is it that you want me to do this time?
Do you want me to burn everything down? Must I
sacrifice everything to your altar?
Speaker 2 (37:19):
Is there not enough ashes already? Okay?
Speaker 1 (37:23):
I just exoriated doctor Gorniac for giving a psychiatric opinion.
But from my vantage point, he the alleged killer that
murdered his little brother is complaining about the little brother?
Do you like to crush me with pain? Do you
like to watch me suffer? What do you want me
(37:43):
to do this time? Burn everything down? Must I sacrifice
everything to your altar?
Speaker 2 (37:50):
Yeah? That's how I read it, Karen Wall.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
How much bizarre poetry has the alleged killer written?
Speaker 2 (38:00):
There's reams of it online.
Speaker 5 (38:01):
There's at least two that we were able to find
that I was able to find in searching.
Speaker 2 (38:07):
But as the police detective said before, it.
Speaker 5 (38:15):
Was hours of searching to find anything to even give
any hint of what Matt is about and who he
is and what is going on. The poetry is very disturbing.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
Look at these excerpts that he has posted on Facebook. Quote,
he still has a pulse, blood still flows through his veins,
but something's wrapped around him, squeezing him, choking him, suffocating him.
Blood oozes out of his eyes, He convulses, he doesn't stop.
He's lost, he's asleep, he's dead. His body's surrounded by fire.
(38:49):
He set the cat on fire. The fires are blazing
inside of him. Now, what is it that you want
me to do this time? Do you want me to
burn everything down? Straight out to former homicide detective Houston PD,
President of Kindred Spirits Investigations and Security, Phil Waters, Now,
(39:11):
a lot of people may do contortions about his mental
health as an excuse for what he did. But he
called nine one one, he ushered police into the body.
What I would describe this as is wishful thinking, blood
coming out of your eyes, fire around you. He's describing
(39:33):
the murder scene before he did it.
Speaker 6 (39:35):
I would agree to a degree of that. I want
to come to the defense a little bit to the
good doctor there the discussion about mental health in this thing.
As a homicide detective, where we're going to try to
determine is what happened and what was there? How was
how did that occur? What was the timeline on this thing?
(39:56):
You know, we keep talking about the I being gouged out,
and other than it being said that, I don't know that.
So I want to see is the autosi did the
eye come out because he was beating him with a
golf club and then once he saw that, then he
went ahead and finished the job. So there's a lot
(40:19):
of stuff going on here. One thing leads to the
other and when I would attend the autopsy, which I
did in every homicide case I haven't give with a doctor,
and we would discuss what I found at the scene.
Speaker 7 (40:32):
So it's all part of the same formula.
Speaker 6 (40:34):
So the discussion about mental health is going to be
part of the investigative discussion.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
Let me just be clear where I'm coming from here.
A mental defect will not negate intent to kill. I
am standing for the crime victim. You may think me harsh,
(41:00):
but what matters is justice for this crime victim. The
constitution will protect the defendant. We are here to protect
the crime victim. A mental health finding could result in
the defendant walking free in a matter of months after treatment.
(41:23):
We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace signing off, goodbye friend.
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. According to cops, a prep
school grad now thirty one. Some would say a rich,
spoiled brat uses a golf club to kill his own
little brother and the family cat and their six thousand,
(00:25):
three hundred dollars a month apartment.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Prep school grad now thirty one, according to cops, uses
a golf club to murder his own brother and the
family cat and their lux apartment. I'm Nancy Grace. This
is crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
Tragedy on fools in the preppy college town of Princeton,
New Jersey, when ex university a Michigan Sunker star Joseph
Hertkin is found dead in his apartment.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
How can this be an and idealic setting? Money rolling
in money right there in the shadows of an ivy
league institution. One brother allegedly clubs the other brother dead
with the golf club, then stabs him multiple times, and
(01:20):
then murders the family cat.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
Listen, flashing lights and cyberns break the usual silence outside
the luxury Michelle Muse's apartments just off Princeton University campus.
Around eleven to fifteen pm, police answer a nine to
one one call to the nearly seven thousand dollars a
month complex reporting a death in a fire. Units in
the building sell for as much as two million dollars.
As responders arrive, flames are not visible, and police work
(01:43):
to gain access to the building.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
True words are never spoken.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Money can't buy love or happiness a seven thousand dollars
a month apartment, and they can't be happy.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
With every luxury they could be provided.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Still, brother kills brother, a story as old as Genesis.
Joining me an all star panel to make sense of
what we are learning tonight, Straight out to Karen wall Sing,
your local editor Patch Media.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Karen, thank you for being with us.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
First of all, can you describe where this occurred.
Speaker 5 (02:20):
This apartment is in on the middle of a very
new complex. These apartments were built in twenty nineteen, it appears,
and they're right in the middle of Palmer Square, which
is high end shops. The whole block where they are
is essentially self contained. The apartment isn't accessible directly from
(02:46):
the street. You have to go through an archway to
get into it.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
When you say luxury shops, what do you mean by that?
Speaker 5 (02:51):
We're talking high end boutiques, you know, where you're not
walking in there unless you're pulling down thousands of dollars
a month in income.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
You know, it's amazing to me to look at all
these photos, and guys, we're getting these photos that you're
seeing right there off of there the family's social media.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
That's where we're learning.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
So much about these two soccer star brothers now one dead.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
You know Phil Waters help me out here. Phil Waters.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Guys you know him well, Former homicide detective for Houston PD,
president's CEO Kindred Spirits Investigations. Phil, I mean, I've been
in so many housing projects of Trump through crack houses, brothels,
for lack of a better word, you name it, under bridges,
(03:40):
and strip clubs where murders go down. But really you're
looking down at what Brooks brothers and Ann Taylor that's
probably not pause enough actually with and these people still with.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
All of that, they still have to kill each other.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
I mean, these two were soccer stars at preppy schools,
bringing in tons of money, silver spoon, the works.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
What is wrong with these people?
Speaker 6 (04:07):
Well, it just goes to show that people with money
still have problems like the rest of us, as you've
already thought.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
Wait, Phil, okay, don't start it off wrong, then okay.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Problems, yeah, problems. But I don't have the.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
Problem that I want to murder a family member and
our cat and dog and guinea pig.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
I don't have that. I don't call that really a problem.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
I call a problem an illness, a family member with
maybe an addiction, going broke and losing your home and
living under a bridge, those are problems. The urge, the
sudden urge to club your brother dead with a golf
club then stab.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
Him, I don't call that a problem. I call that
premeditation and murderous intent.
Speaker 6 (04:53):
Well, I would have to say that is something like
this regardless of the setting. It doesn't happen in a vacuum.
And what I have noticed that if I have a
case like this, in all my cases that I always
put together a psychological autopsy on the suspect, because when
I get them in the interview room, I want to
be able to address the wise behind the act. And
(05:14):
in this particular case, the one thing I've noticed is
that in the description in the media of these two men,
the younger brother the victim. Here Joseph has always described
in his great successes in high school and his great
successes in college at the University of Michigan with the soccer,
(05:38):
with his academics, and then his success with his job,
the work that he's been involved in. And then when
you talk about the description of the brother the suspect
in this case, it just says he played soccer at Wesleyan.
So there is a real backstory here that is yet
(06:01):
to develop. But I would tell you that this didn't happen.
This was not an instant decision. This is something that
has been building, building, building, and this is, you know,
what we would call a smoking gun case. Well, in
this case, it's a smoking golf club.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
No, no to everything you just said. All of what
you just said may very well be true. Okay, may
be true, but what you are describing is a motive
for murder, and that motive is jealousy. I still don't
see that as a problem that we all have a
(06:38):
family problem that would lead to a drastic act.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
In my mind, would be something severe or not.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
You're jealous of your little brother, because yeah, did you
on the soccer field? And speaking of jealousy in this
case to especial guests joining us, Sam Bassett, renowned criminal
defense attorney, at Minton, Bassett, Flores and Carsey, And let
me add former president of the Texas Criminal Defense Lawyers
(07:07):
Educational Institute, Sam, I hear everything fil just said, and
he may be factually one hundred percent accurate. But about
five years into prosecuting nothing but violent crime, I was
looking over at a defense a killer, a murderer, and
it wasn't his first time, and I thought, why why
(07:30):
would he leave such a wake of pain behind him
over nothing?
Speaker 2 (07:35):
And then it hit me five years it took me
why ask why?
Speaker 1 (07:39):
Because the state never has to prove motive, does it,
Sam Bassett?
Speaker 7 (07:45):
It does not.
Speaker 8 (07:46):
I think this case kind of has a resonating theme
in Texas. A few years ago we had a Clay
case where the defense put on an expert to talk
about the affluenza, the psychological effect of well health and
privilege on a young man who had committed a crime
and to try to mitigate the responsibility. Now that fell
(08:08):
on unsympathetic ears for ninety percent of the public, because
it's hard to stomach, as you said, it's hard to
stomach how somebody with all these.
Speaker 7 (08:19):
Privileges and all these.
Speaker 8 (08:21):
Blessings could do something like this. And I think you
have to begin to peel the onion skin layers and
try to understand what was going on inside this older
brother's head.
Speaker 7 (08:31):
Other than just jealousy.
Speaker 8 (08:34):
It has to be something even worse.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
You just said, the state doesn't have to prove motive.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
Why do I have to get in his head and
look around in there to figure out why he brutally
murdered his brother and the family cat.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
Now you were referring to a.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
Defense called afluenza when typically an adult manchild is so
eased to a silver spoon in his mouth that he
can't relate to real life. Now, see right now, you're
barking up the wrong tree. My dad worked the swing
shift for the railroad my whole life, and my mom
(09:12):
started off as a bank teller. All right, So the
whole affluenza I'm too rich to be held accountable thing
is not working right here. But speaking of the affluenza teen,
he was not a teen. But the affluenza defense you're
referring to Ethan Couch, I remember him well, a Terran
County case.
Speaker 6 (09:32):
Listen, ar Kenny and I one, what is your ask emergency?
Speaker 2 (09:37):
The record Road really need some Manbuel that we flipped.
Speaker 7 (09:42):
And so again, Okay, were you involved.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
In the truck?
Speaker 9 (09:49):
Okay, you're in this truck.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
Are you injured? We just like to how many people
are injured?
Speaker 3 (09:58):
Just for my record, If you don't know how many
people would injured, we're.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
That's him, Ethan Couch.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
He flipped his souped up truck, killing three, killing three,
including a youth minister on the side of the road,
trying to change a woman's flat tire, and permanently, permanently
paralyzing another victim.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
And take a listen to the sentence.
Speaker 9 (10:31):
Look at my brother.
Speaker 10 (10:32):
He's doing more than a twenty eight day period one
twenty eight or whatever.
Speaker 9 (10:36):
He's doing more than ten years of probation.
Speaker 4 (10:39):
Ethan Couch is such a spoiled child. When he kills
four people while driving under the influence of drugs and
speeding through a residential area, his attorney creates a special
defense for him due to his affluenza and placed the
blame for the car crash and the deaths squarely on
the shoulders of his parents for never punishing him for
anything he does wrong and giving him everything he wants.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
If it had been prosecuted for murder, he'd be in
jail right now as it was, it was a lesser volunteery.
He could have gotten twenty years behind bars on each count.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
But what did he get?
Speaker 1 (11:13):
An unspecified sentence to a treatment facility. He goes on
the run and he's found with his mother hold up
in a five star resort in Mexico. He was caught
ordering room service, ordering pizza. Okay, him ethan couch.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
You brought it up.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
I didn't affluenza. And that's what we're seeing here as well.
When you heard from Alex Molina, the brother of the
permanently paralyzed Sergio Molina, that was from our friends at
Fort Worth Star Telegram.
Speaker 11 (11:54):
Back to this case, listen eleven sixteen pm Saturday night,
Princeton Police receiving that one one call about a dead
body and a fire in an apartment building. The caller,
Matthew Hurkin, remains cryptic on the phone, not answering the
dispatcher's questions about who is dead, why they are dead,
who owns the apartment? And more police and first responders
(12:16):
surround the building. But nothing could have prepared officers for
what they found inside.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
Two our friend Karen Wool joining us from Patch Media.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
What did they find inside Karen.
Speaker 5 (12:29):
Reporting says that they found Joseph dead, the family cat dead,
and they found a bloody knife plate, and Joseph's eyeball missing.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
The cat apparently had been set on fire.
Speaker 5 (12:47):
We are working to confirm those details of passions.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
Twenty six year old University of Michigan grad soccer prodigy
Joseph Herkin is found dead along with his cat in
a fiery blaze at his New Jersey apartment.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
Is this a case of simple sibling rivalry?
Speaker 1 (13:10):
According to Phil joining us right now, Phil Waters, veteran
homicide detective, it was a rage attack. Why do you
say that, Well, just.
Speaker 7 (13:19):
The scene itself.
Speaker 6 (13:20):
When I walk into a scene like this, the first
thing that's going to stick out to me is it's overkill.
Speaker 7 (13:27):
You know, this use of a.
Speaker 6 (13:28):
Golf club and a knife and the condition of the
body of the victim.
Speaker 7 (13:33):
And then you've got.
Speaker 6 (13:34):
This this subtext over here with the killing of the cat.
So there's some kind of symbolism here between everything that
happened in that scene. This is one of these things
where as I walked in any scene, I let it
talk to me. I want to take a look at
it and what are these things indicate to me about
what happened in this moment in time in that apartment.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
Doctor jan Gorniac is joining us renowned former medical examiner
at the Clark County Office of Medical Examiners at Vegas.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
Never lack of business.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
She's seen more dead bodies than probably all of us
put together, even having visited many crime saying, doctor Gorniac,
thank you for being with us. Do you agree with
Phil's assessment, Phil Waters that this is a rage attack?
Speaker 2 (14:21):
If so, why I.
Speaker 10 (14:22):
Am not sure I can agree with that because that's
outside of my lane.
Speaker 9 (14:27):
So as a frontic pathologist or a.
Speaker 10 (14:28):
Death investigator, we go in and we note the injuries
that we see, but to categorize it as a rage,
that's not what we typically do. But I can understand
why Philis is saying that an overkilled because the use
of more than one weapon, a golf club and a
(14:50):
sharkforce instrument as the nice.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
Well, I'm curious, doctor Gorniac, when you say overkill. What
do you mean by that? What here lazy to call
it overkill?
Speaker 10 (15:03):
Well, the use of more than one weapon. So you
have a blunt object, which is the golf club, and
then you have a sharp force weapon which is a knife.
I'm not sure exactly what injuries he has, but it
sounds like most of them are from the golf club.
I've done plenty of cases, both blunt force injuries and
(15:24):
sharp force injuries. Sometimes you have one stab wound and
someone is dead. Sometimes you have ninety six, so depending
on that or just a number of wounds that you
can take a golf club and strike somebody in the
head one time and cause their death, or you strike
them about the body and not only do they have
head injury, but they have chest injury, heart lacerations, liver lacerations.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
Doctor Gorniac, Have you ever seen a murder victim that
had a body part gouged out as in this case?
Speaker 9 (15:52):
I have not been twenty years. I've been practicing.
Speaker 10 (15:56):
I've had dismembered bodies, but to go would out and
I in this case, I.
Speaker 9 (16:05):
Think that would have given me the willies.
Speaker 10 (16:06):
If I was at that scene, because I mean, I've
seen a lot, but that probably would have been a
little bit too much for me.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
You know.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
I want to go to doctor Jeff Kalshewsky again, Doctor Jeff.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
Why and criminal law doesn't matter? Now?
Speaker 1 (16:22):
Practically speaking? It does actually because a jury wants to
hear what's the motive?
Speaker 2 (16:28):
Right? They want to hear?
Speaker 1 (16:30):
Could you describe what is the middle child syndrome? The
alleged killer. The brother in this case was the middle child.
The older brother superstar. The younger brother eclipsed the suspect
in every way.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
He himself was a shining star.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
He played soccer at a really ritzy prep school in
Tom's River.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
He went on to play.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
Soccer a starting soccer player for another elit prep school, Wesleyan.
I guess that wasn't enough to satisfy his ego.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
Whats with the middle child syndrome?
Speaker 12 (17:14):
Well, there's this stereotype that the middle child gets less attention,
so that they have to do things to get more attention.
But this is clearly beyond a middle child who's jealous
of a little brother. There's a lot more going on
in this case than that. Just when we talked earlier
about using a golf club and then a knife, we
(17:37):
talked about is this a rage killing.
Speaker 7 (17:40):
There's more going on than this.
Speaker 12 (17:41):
You know, someone uses a golf club, and I've had
plenty of cases where people have used golf clubs and
gaged out eyes and said pets on fire. Believe it
or not, the golf club can't kill you, but it's
usually it can be on one hip, but it's not
a very efficient murder weapon. So for what we talked
about already, in this case, this killer was obviously into
(18:03):
the experience of the murder, took it a step further.
Wh're gouging out eyeballs. This is an experience rather than
just aim I want to off my brother that I'm
jealous of, and then the idea of setting the cat
on fire again. For some reason, this person is carrying
out these acts and these murders for the experience rather
(18:25):
than just the motivation or the aim that I want
to off my little brother who I'm jealous of.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
Okay, Kellashowski, hold on, I'm just a JD. I'm not
a forensic psychologist like yourself. Author of Dark Sides on YouTube,
doctor Jeff Kalashewsky, forensic psychologist, doctor Jeff the experience. We've
been analyzing that theory in depth when it relates to
(18:51):
Brian Koberger, the pad criminology student out at Pullman in
Washington State, and the working theory is that with no
connection to the four murdered college students, murdered in their
own beds in the wee hours of the morning before
(19:14):
Thanksgiving break because he was obsessed with the experience. He
had been asking in a study for his PhD, asking
violent felons a questionnaire like, what did you feel just
before you committed the crime? What were you thinking, what
(19:36):
were you feeling? What went through your mind? What did
it feel like when you identified your quote target? How
did you feel during it? Were you cognizant of finding
a way out or a quick exit? In retrospect, how
do you feel about what you experienced during the crime.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
He was obsessed with it, then.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
Carefully plotted and planned the murders and then carry them out.
Many people thinking his desire was the experience to know
what it feels like to kill someone. What are you
talking about? In this case the middle child syndrome. The
(20:17):
middle child wants the experience of gouging his little brother's
eyeball out.
Speaker 12 (20:23):
For some reason, he does because, again, if this was
a simple, straightforward I hate my brother and I'm going
to kill him, like you said, that goes all the
way back to Genesis, it would have been done a
lot more efficiently, and it would have not taken us
long and this experience of using a couple murder weapons,
gouging the eyeball, setting the cat on fire.
Speaker 7 (20:44):
There's more here.
Speaker 12 (20:45):
Than just a straightforward murder with a motivation of jealousy
or just a hate of your brother.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
Hey, doctor Jeff Kalsowski, listen to this. The of course,
cause of death for Joseph is pending autopsy, but we
know he was bludgeon According to police sources that spoke
to the Post, Matthew played.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
Now this is the suspect. Brother.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
Matthew Hurtkin, now thirty one, no longer a fresh shied,
fresh faced, bright eyed team playing soccer.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
He's a grown man, I bet you.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
Anything, living off his mom and dad, but that remains
to be seen. He played soccer at Tom's River North
High School and went on to play at the elite
Wesleyan University in Connecticut. Okay, so he played college soccer.
That's a big deal. That's hard to do. Very few
people make it onto a starting college sports team. I
(21:44):
don't care how great you are in little league, You're
probably not going to make it onto a college team.
He did, and he played on the college team for
years at Wesleyan.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
Was that not enough? For his ego.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
Then comes along Little Brother, a three time academic All
Big Ten soccer player played at University Michigan twenty sixteen
to twenty nineteen. He the Little Brother now murdered high school,
two time MVP off as.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
A Player of the Year, graduated.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
From the Stephen m Ross School of Business, and had
a career in asset management. Per the News now hold on,
Phil Waters was describing these two brothers, and there's an
older brother, by the way, an older brother, Joseph Hertgan,
who is a shining star in his career. Phil Waters,
(22:41):
you were talking about how you just couldn't find that
much about the alleged killer. Nobody can we find out
a lot about the victim. We found out a lot
about the older brother, but not much about the alleged
killer brother.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
Phil, You're right, well, I'll.
Speaker 7 (22:59):
Tell you what. It's just an indication.
Speaker 6 (23:01):
And again, and I'm looking at this thing as a
homicide cop walking into this scene.
Speaker 7 (23:05):
I agree with the doctor to the good degree.
Speaker 6 (23:08):
That once he started the killing, that he was getting
into the experience. And look, it started that this fuse
started burning a long time ago, in my opinion, and
it finally got to the point where something happened in
that apartment that day between he and his brother that
(23:30):
finally blew the lid off of this thing. And so again,
these things don't happen in a vacuum.
Speaker 7 (23:36):
I just think it is it's.
Speaker 6 (23:40):
I think there's more to it than just a simple jealousy.
This is something that is built and built and built
over years from a lot of different directions. And I
think the fact that we know very little about the
suspect in this case to me as a homicide cop,
as an indicator, That's why I would want to get
him in an interview room and delved into where does
(24:02):
this start and how did it manifest itself into this
brutal evil killing of his brother?
Speaker 1 (24:09):
Did a college soccer star murder his little brother, also
a college soccer star in their rise the apartment Listen?
Speaker 4 (24:18):
At the University of Michigan, Joseph Hertkin continues to receive
awards for academic excellence off the field. Hurkin major's in
Business Administration, Accounting and Finance graduates with honors and lands
a job as an analyst for Locus Point Capital.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
Wow, what you were seeing is from that we are
soccer at Michigan Facebook page The Little Brother Now did
a shining star Listen.
Speaker 4 (24:42):
A former college soccer player is being charged with brutally
murdering his younger brother and setting their family cat on
fire in a ritzy apartment just steps from Princeton University.
Thirty one year old Matthew Herkan is now in police
custody in Mercer County, New Jersey, after reportedly using a
golf club and a kitchen knife to bludgeon maybe brother
Joseph Hurkin, who is an even more successful athlete, to death.
(25:04):
Police sources say the youngest Hurricane was missing an eye
and a bloody plate and fork were found not far
from his body.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
Straight out to Sam Bassie joining us, a veteran trial
lawyer out of Texas, what do you make of the
fact that both murder weapons were readily accessible. It's not like, again,
let's hues coburger, he had to buy the murder weapon.
Who is presumed innocent until proven guilty by the way,
he had to buy the murder weapon on Amazon and
(25:33):
stealthily sneak over to the murder scene. In this case,
both weapons were right there, the golf club and the knife.
That actually adds to the legal formula here.
Speaker 7 (25:47):
I think it does.
Speaker 8 (25:48):
I think it adds to the speculation that it might
have been a rage attack, something that triggered him to
be really angry at his brother and just go off
on him and he just didn't stop too.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
Doctor Jan Gorney, a former medical examiner in Vegas Gorniac
way in.
Speaker 10 (26:04):
So we were talking before about the eye gouging being
post mortem.
Speaker 9 (26:09):
I believe it post mortem.
Speaker 10 (26:10):
It didn't happen during the fight because as humans, we're
gonna fight. We're gonna fight back. Also, where I said,
it's also it's I guess my job is easier than
the detectives or the attorneys because we're just involved with
the cause and the manner of death. So we know
the cause, you know, blunt force injury, sharp force injuries.
(26:32):
The manner of death is homicide. We don't deal in
with the whys, but as humans we always want to know. So,
but we're sitting here trying to rationalize irrational behavior.
Speaker 9 (26:45):
And but that's what we do.
Speaker 10 (26:46):
We because it doesn't make sense, so we're trying to
make sense of it and try to come up with
a story. But I also have to say we haven't
talked about mental health. I think mental health plays a
big role in this case. We don't know his mental status.
Maybe he, like you said, didn't get along with his brother,
(27:07):
but there could be some underlying mental health issues that
he is undiagnosed, untreated.
Speaker 9 (27:13):
But there's something else definitely going on.
Speaker 1 (27:15):
Joining me is a renowned for a medical examiner, doctor Gorniac.
Did you specialize at any point in psychiatry or psychology?
Speaker 9 (27:25):
I did not.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
I did not, Okay, But yet you are saying there's
a mental health issue. Can I ask you do you
have a scentilla of evidence such as a prior diagnosis,
treatment prescriptions from a doctor that he may he the
alleged killer, may have had. Do you know anything at
all regarding that.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
I don't.
Speaker 10 (27:47):
I'm just putting it another layer into the why because
we're trying to figure out what's the case.
Speaker 1 (27:54):
So you know nothing at all about his mental health.
Yet you are because he killed his brother and gouts
his eye out, that he must have a mental illness.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
Is that in your supposition? That is not it?
Speaker 10 (28:09):
I said, we cannot not think about it. We have
to think about it. We're thinking about everything else. But
we do have a mental health issue in this country
that there's a lot of people that aren't treated, and
we have to make sure that that's not it's not
the why, it's not an excuse. But this obviously is
not normal behavior.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
You.
Speaker 9 (28:29):
I mean, I grew up with.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
A sister, Doctor Gorniat.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
Yet again, we doctor Gorney, be half of all murder
victims across our country.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
Do you believe murdering.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
Anyone, let's just say, an infant lying in its crib.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
Do you think that no normal behavior? Okay?
Speaker 1 (28:48):
No, then somehow, because the eyes gouged out, you are
saying that he may, with no evidence whatsoever, have a
mental health issue. And in my world, what that means
is he will go to a treatment facility and ultimately
walk free in about eighteen months.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
That's what vig means. Dr Gorniac.
Speaker 9 (29:10):
No, No, that's not what I'm saying.
Speaker 10 (29:12):
So because there's also you have and I'm not a lawyer,
I don't try cases, but I know there's things about
guilty by reason of insanity.
Speaker 9 (29:19):
I'm not saying he's insane, but there has to be.
We can't none.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
Why did you bring it up?
Speaker 9 (29:24):
There's things I bought you.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
Not saying, then why did you bring it up?
Speaker 9 (29:31):
Joining me.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
With Patch Media. Karen, isn't it true? And this is
a lightning round, Karen, isn't it true that the alleged killer,
the brother the middle child, called nine one one?
Speaker 2 (29:45):
Isn't that true? Yes? Yes, he called nine one one?
Speaker 1 (29:49):
And isn't it also true when the police arrived he
opened the door and essentially led them according to the
post to there's the body right?
Speaker 2 (29:59):
Yes?
Speaker 6 (30:00):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (30:01):
A family tragedy in New Jersey, a Princeton murder suspect
kills his younger brother and his cat with a knife
and golf club.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
So curious if he had the wherewithal to know what
he did was wrong.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
And report it to nine one one.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
An usher in the police, Sam Bassett, This is a
yes no, because I.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
Know you're going to want to argue this till you're
blue in the face.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
But isn't our law In the American jurisprudence insanity is
based on the old McNaughton rule that was brought over
in our common law from Great Britain.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
And the McNaughton rule of insanity.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
Is litmus, and it is did Purp know right from
wrong at the time of the incident, not now that
he's lawyered up and they're saying, hey, that crazy. At
the time of the incident, he had the wherewithal to
know what he did was wrong and call nine one
one and bring in the police.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
Isn't that true?
Speaker 8 (31:07):
That is true?
Speaker 2 (31:09):
Call is not I knew you were going to say
something else, but go ahead.
Speaker 8 (31:12):
Call is an indicative that he knew what was going on.
Speaker 7 (31:16):
But you have to look beyond that.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
Crime stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
To doctor gorneyat no offense because I consider your friend
and a colleague. But I don't tell you how to
perform an autopsy. Do I have I ever told you
how to perform an autopsy?
Speaker 7 (31:42):
No?
Speaker 9 (31:43):
As But I'm also a physician. I'm not just an autopsyist.
Speaker 10 (31:47):
I am a doctor first, So when I do autopsies,
we look at not only I mean, obviously I'm not
going to say whether someone is guilty or not. I
also have to look at the medical.
Speaker 9 (32:00):
History social history of my patient also, So.
Speaker 10 (32:04):
Your pain to say that my patient, right, I will.
Speaker 9 (32:09):
I'm not You're.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
Talking about mental health issue on the alleged killer. That's
not your patient, is it.
Speaker 9 (32:15):
It's not?
Speaker 10 (32:16):
But I'm saying I'm saying he's crazy mental I have anxiety.
Speaker 9 (32:20):
That is a mental health disorder.
Speaker 10 (32:23):
Honestly anxiety right now, But I'm saying so depression, anxiety,
personality disorder. But there's there's something else in my opinion,
right And I'm not diagnosing. I'm not saying he's insane.
I'm not saying he didn't know right from wrong. But
it's part of You're trying to figure out what else
is in his history? So what else is in his history?
(32:45):
And I think medical mental social history is very important
when you're going to look at the totality of why
someone did something.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
How about his main as hell and he is consumed mind, body,
and soul with decades of jealousy for his shining star
little brother.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
What about that's not a mental illness?
Speaker 10 (33:10):
But well maybe it's a coping Why isn't he Why
isn't he able to cope with that?
Speaker 9 (33:14):
Why isn't he able to.
Speaker 10 (33:16):
Say congratulations there and not be that jealous?
Speaker 2 (33:19):
I understand, I understand that.
Speaker 9 (33:20):
I'm not arguing.
Speaker 2 (33:21):
I might say I get it.
Speaker 10 (33:23):
But I'm just saying we're trying to rationalize irrational behavior.
And I'm just saying there's many layers to everybody, and
we have to look at his social history.
Speaker 9 (33:33):
You know, does he abuse drugs? I don't know. Does
he use alcohol?
Speaker 2 (33:38):
We don't know that.
Speaker 13 (33:38):
We child, my goodness, we have no evidence of drug
ins And just f y before you burn that out again,
voluntary use of drugs or alcohol are not a defense
under the mad I don't care.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
If he does not have a drug problem.
Speaker 1 (33:56):
I don't care if he drinks himself silly breakfast, lunch
and dinner. That is not an excuse. How about this,
Kalashewski consumed with jealousy starting from day one, when that child,
the baby brother, the murder victim.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
Is brought home from the hospital.
Speaker 1 (34:15):
And Mommy's loving on it and daddy's loving on it,
and then he gets outshined at the soccer field, he
gets outshined in school.
Speaker 2 (34:23):
The brother gets this great job. He doesn't.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
In fact, can I see the picture the alleged killer
posted the day before the murder.
Speaker 2 (34:34):
While the brother's.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
Out working, the murder victim, the purpose at home taking
selfies of him.
Speaker 2 (34:41):
With a cat toy. There you go, this is him.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
While the brother is out making a living, he's at
home taking selfies with a cat toy.
Speaker 12 (34:53):
Kalashevski, Well, the bottom line is, and I think the
medical examiner was getting into this. It's not usual for
her to do an autopsy and a murder victim where
the eye's been gouged out, likely post mortem, So you
can go with the theory of this is a jealous
brother rage. But there's a lot of weird stuff going
(35:15):
on beyond just a murder that happened, and I think
those are the things that people are noticing more than
the straightforward murder case. And I think that's why these
questions of mental health comes up because of these sort
of unusual, weird things are outside of just a normal
I'm jealous of my brother and I hate him, and I'm.
Speaker 7 (35:32):
Going to kill him.
Speaker 3 (35:34):
I think he's dead.
Speaker 9 (35:37):
He's been shot. He's been shot.
Speaker 3 (35:39):
Yes, hello, ma'am, you said your husband was shot? Yes,
how long ago?
Speaker 2 (35:44):
Probably ten fifteen minutes ago, ten minutes ago, maybe ten
minutes ago. He was shot maybe fifteen by whome my
son who's nuts, But I didn't.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
Know he was just nuts. Another spoiled rich brought preppy killer.
That one is Thomas Gilbert Junior, who guns down his father,
sends his mom out for a sandwich, and mommy trots
off to the deli, and while she's gone, he guns
down Dad because Dad finally was going to cut off
(36:13):
his allowance Thomas Gilbert Jr. And now we've got another
spoiled rich Bratt who murders his brother.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
Now a lot.
Speaker 1 (36:23):
Has been made even of our renowned medical examiner, doctor
Jan Gorniac, who ventures to guess maybe he is mentally ill,
maybe he has a drug or alcohol problem, or maybe
he's consumed with jealousy and finally kills his roommate, his.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
Own little brother.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
Karen Wall, what can you tell me about the alleged
killer's poetry?
Speaker 2 (36:48):
But first, hold.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
On, I've taken the liberty of recording some of it.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
Listen, is that your voice?
Speaker 11 (36:54):
Or is that my voice? Was that the work of
my hands?
Speaker 2 (36:58):
Or was that the work of your hand?
Speaker 11 (37:00):
Hands? Do you like to watch me suffer? Do you
like to crush me with pain? It disturbingly continues. Now,
what is it that you want me to do this time?
Do you want me to burn everything down? Must I
sacrifice everything to your altar?
Speaker 2 (37:19):
Is there not enough ashes already? Okay?
Speaker 1 (37:23):
I just exoriated doctor Gorniac for giving a psychiatric opinion.
But from my vantage point, he the alleged killer that
murdered his little brother is complaining about the little brother?
Do you like to crush me with pain? Do you
like to watch me suffer? What do you want me
(37:43):
to do this time? Burn everything down? Must I sacrifice
everything to your altar?
Speaker 2 (37:50):
Yeah? That's how I read it, Karen Wall.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
How much bizarre poetry has the alleged killer written?
Speaker 2 (38:00):
There's reams of it online.
Speaker 5 (38:01):
There's at least two that we were able to find
that I was able to find in searching.
Speaker 2 (38:07):
But as the police detective said before, it.
Speaker 5 (38:15):
Was hours of searching to find anything to even give
any hint of what Matt is about and who he
is and what is going on. The poetry is very disturbing.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
Look at these excerpts that he has posted on Facebook. Quote,
he still has a pulse, blood still flows through his veins,
but something's wrapped around him, squeezing him, choking him, suffocating him.
Blood oozes out of his eyes, He convulses, he doesn't stop.
He's lost, he's asleep, he's dead. His body's surrounded by fire.
(38:49):
He set the cat on fire. The fires are blazing
inside of him. Now, what is it that you want
me to do this time? Do you want me to
burn everything down? Straight out to former homicide detective Houston PD,
President of Kindred Spirits Investigations and Security, Phil Waters, Now,
(39:11):
a lot of people may do contortions about his mental
health as an excuse for what he did. But he
called nine one one, he ushered police into the body.
What I would describe this as is wishful thinking, blood
coming out of your eyes, fire around you. He's describing
(39:33):
the murder scene before he did it.
Speaker 6 (39:35):
I would agree to a degree of that. I want
to come to the defense a little bit to the
good doctor there the discussion about mental health in this thing.
As a homicide detective, where we're going to try to
determine is what happened and what was there? How was
how did that occur? What was the timeline on this thing?
(39:56):
You know, we keep talking about the I being gouged out,
and other than it being said that, I don't know that.
So I want to see is the autosi did the
eye come out because he was beating him with a
golf club and then once he saw that, then he
went ahead and finished the job. So there's a lot
(40:19):
of stuff going on here. One thing leads to the
other and when I would attend the autopsy, which I
did in every homicide case I haven't give with a doctor,
and we would discuss what I found at the scene.
Speaker 7 (40:32):
So it's all part of the same formula.
Speaker 6 (40:34):
So the discussion about mental health is going to be
part of the investigative discussion.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
Let me just be clear where I'm coming from here.
A mental defect will not negate intent to kill. I
am standing for the crime victim. You may think me harsh,
(41:00):
but what matters is justice for this crime victim. The
constitution will protect the defendant. We are here to protect
the crime victim. A mental health finding could result in
the defendant walking free in a matter of months after treatment.
(41:23):
We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace signing off, goodbye friend.
Host
Nancy Grace
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