July 25, 2025 • 39 mins
Appalling new details of a 25-year-old son's disassembly body is discovered by his own mom. Shad Thyrion, 25, was killed and dismembered in his mother's basement. Authorities allege, Taylor Schabusiness, took advantage of Shad during rough sex and violated his body afterwards during a drug fueled state.
Schabusiness later allegedly brags to police she enjoyed the entire ordeal. She leaves Thyrion’s mutilated head in a bucket for his mother to find and law enforcement later discovered the victim’s dismembered torso, penis and carved-out organs in the basement.
Joining Nancy Grace today,
- Chief Chris Davis - Chief of the Green Bay Police Department since 2021, 30 Years in law enforcement. Served previously in the Portland, Oregon Police Bureau and the Arizona State University Police Department.
- Derek Smith - Criminal Defense Attorney, website: dwsmithlegal.com
- Dr. Shari Schwartz - Forensic Psychologist (specializing in Capital Mitigation and Victim Advocacy), www.panthermitigation.com, Twitter: @TrialDoc, Author: "Criminal Behavior" and "Where Law and Psychology Intersect: Issues in Legal Psychology"
- Dr. Thomas Coyne - Chief Medical Examiner, District 2 Medical Examiner's Office, State of Florida; Forensic Pathologist, Neuropathologist, Toxicologist; X: @DrTMCoyne;
- Dave Mack - Investigative Reporter for CrimeOnline.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, Breaking news tonight, cutting and sawing,
a lover is dismembered, the mom finds a head in
a bucket. Good evening, This is Crime Stories. I'm Nancy Grace.
(00:23):
I want to thank you for being with us. Ahead
in a Bucket. Let me just start with that straight
out to veteran trial lawyer criminal defense attorney Derek Smith
joining us and you can find him at Dwsmith Legal
dot com. Derek, thank you for being with us. You know,
(00:43):
when we were in law school, Derek at your law
school on me at my own, we had all these
lofty legal thoughts, like all sorts of constitutional arguments and
theoretical back and forth about the meaning the founding Father's
really intended. I never really thought through to the logical
(01:05):
conclusion that I would be talking about ahead in a bucket,
did you.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
No, No, Nancy, or else, I had have probably picked
a different profession, you know, not something that you're aspiring
to be. When we're in law school, look about all
the constitutional law, all the ways we're going to change
the world for the better.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
Never thought we'd be the one on the other end, right, No, I.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
Never did think I would be discussing a head in
a bucket.
Speaker 4 (01:28):
But you know, a special guest joining us.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
We're very proud to have Chief Chris Davis, chief of
the Green Bay PD, so previously in Portland, Oregon Police
Bureau and Arizona State University PD.
Speaker 4 (01:43):
Wow, okay, what does that mean to me?
Speaker 1 (01:45):
You've seen a lot of action, but up until this case,
had you ever encountered a human head, a severed head
in a bucket?
Speaker 5 (01:57):
Uh? No, in all that time, this was a new
one for me.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
When we were in training, for instance, when I was
in law school and arguing in moot court pretend court
to get ready to become a trial lawyer.
Speaker 4 (02:10):
I guess we all knew it was out there.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
When you were in let's just say, cadet school or
police training, you knew it existed. But it's a whole
another thing. When it suddenly gets real and there's.
Speaker 5 (02:24):
A head in a bucket, you know it really is.
And we try to train police officers to have skills
that they can use in any situation they find themselves in.
But the real world sometimes just has things in it
that we can't fully prepare you for.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
You know, it's interesting, Chief Davis will so many things
every day for me.
Speaker 4 (02:42):
Unlike what Derek Smith said.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
If he thought he was going to have to talk
about a head in the bucket, he may have chosen
another profession.
Speaker 4 (02:47):
I would not.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
That would make me want to put bad guys in
jail even more, even more intensely. But I'm not defending them.
I'm not trying to get them out of jail.
Speaker 4 (03:00):
Davis.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
Another thing is, in all the years I've investigated, prosecuted,
had gone to the more gone to crime scenes. I
never got sick to my stomach. I never felt queasy.
I never broke down and cried. Other things more poignant
details get me upset, but the carnage doesn't. It kind
of makes me angry. It makes me want justice. It
(03:25):
makes me wonder why the bad guy wasn't in jail already,
because you don't go from zero to one hundred and
ten mph overnight.
Speaker 4 (03:32):
There had to be.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
A lead up, unless way, whoa, whoa, whoa, I'm crazy myself.
Speaker 4 (03:37):
There's coburger, here's a PhD.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
Student, everybody thinks is meek and mild Mannard, and now
for murders. So I guess from the outside looking in.
Although it made been brewing for a long time. He
did go to zero to one hundred and twenty mph
literally overnight, So I guess it can happen.
Speaker 5 (03:57):
Chief it can, And for us when we or something
like this, our job is to find out the truth
so that we can refer the matter to our prosecutors,
our partners in the DA's office, in the court system.
But you know, when you encounter something like this, the
person's history can be interesting, but what you're really looking
(04:18):
for is what can we prove actually happened in this instance.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
I'm so glad you if you didn't say what we're
looking for is why, because I would, you know, beat
my brains out. For about the first five years that
I was a felony prosecutor in INTERCDI, Atlanta, I would
look over at the defendant think why would you do
this and leave such a wake of pain trailing behind
you just like a motor boat.
Speaker 4 (04:43):
And then one day I was about into year five,
I thought, why am I wasting.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
My time trying to figure out what he was thinking
when he committed a double murder, A heinus double murder?
Speaker 4 (04:55):
Why am I even worried?
Speaker 1 (04:56):
That's not an element of proof showing motive. So let's
get right to it, and let's start for so many
violent crimes start with the nine to one one.
Speaker 6 (05:09):
You.
Speaker 7 (05:11):
Said an officer at eight twenty nine, Stonebrook just woke
me up to swear that Calder subs ahead of her
son in a base by eighty nine Stony brooky eye right, yesty,
(05:34):
just so much.
Speaker 8 (05:35):
At a house department who.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Plays okay, Derek Smith, a veteran trial lawyer, criminal defense attorney,
which is its own breed lawyer.
Speaker 4 (05:44):
Did you hear the nine one one up?
Speaker 1 (05:47):
The guy says, my girlfriend just woke me up swear
she found her the severed hit of her son in
the basement. And what does the nine one one dispatch say?
Can you repeat the address, sir? And he says eighteen
nine is Tony Brook And the guy dispatch says, st n.
Speaker 4 (06:06):
E What I mean? What? What is he brain dead?
Speaker 1 (06:11):
The guy just hears that there's a head in a bucket,
the head is in the basement.
Speaker 4 (06:18):
He's like, can you spell stony please? Is there an
E in that?
Speaker 3 (06:21):
What we gotta understand?
Speaker 2 (06:22):
I mean they're on the other end of the emergency
phone call trying to understand what's going on too. You know,
it's not every day you get a phone call like
that that there's something in the head in a basket.
But they're trying to de escalate the situation too. They
want to make sure the person on the other end
is calm enough to at least relay the information about
what's going on, especially when you hear something.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
Heinous like this.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
Now, you want to make sure the person calling you
is safe enough in what's going on. Obviously the person
with the head in the basket has another issue going on,
but gets more into that later.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
I'm just telling you, I'm always amazed and a little
confounded by the way dispatch responds.
Speaker 4 (07:01):
But hey, you know what, I hear what you're saying.
Let's hear more of that nine one one call here again.
Speaker 7 (07:07):
I don't happy my girls swears that she's follow her
as severed ahead of her son at the baby a bucket.
I went down.
Speaker 9 (07:16):
I can't go with them.
Speaker 7 (07:18):
I lead. That's kind of a free though. We have
to say that, yeah, and who who is she claiming?
Speaker 10 (07:32):
Her son?
Speaker 3 (07:33):
Al her son twenty four, twenty twenty five.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Now to doctor Sherry Schwartz, joining US forensic psychologists specializing
in capital mitigation. You can find her at panthermitigation dot com.
She's the author of Criminal Behavior and my favorite of hers,
where law and psychology intersect issues in legal psychology. Doctor Sherry,
thank you for being with us. Did you notice the
(07:59):
guy hear the mom's boyfriend, he's not going down and
looking himself.
Speaker 4 (08:07):
He's saying, she's claiming it's her son. What's with him?
Speaker 1 (08:11):
Why doesn't he go down there and find out? And
he's sounding like he's disbelieving the mom.
Speaker 9 (08:17):
Well, it is something that would cause a state of
disbelief in some people, especially if they haven't seen it.
And I'm guessing that he didn't want to go down
to see it, because if it's true, it's absolutely horrific.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Uh.
Speaker 9 (08:32):
You know, and imagine what mom was going through that
she sees her son's head in a bucket in the basement.
So I think that's a natural reaction, although I think
most of us think we would run down there to
see what was going on.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
So finally Mom takes the phone listen a bucket?
Speaker 7 (08:58):
What makes you think? At what did you see? Calculating Okay,
where's the uh, where's the rest of the body?
Speaker 1 (09:12):
At No, I am you're hearing the mother of the victim.
And I'm wondering doctor Sherry Schwartz if she is in shock,
because I notice that she can't say it again. The
dispatch says, what did you see? And instead of recounting
it again, she says, exactly what I told you. It's
(09:35):
like I've said it once. I don't even like saying
it right now. She didn't want to say again, my
son's head is in a bucket. She won't say it again.
She can't bring herself to say it. What is that response?
Speaker 9 (09:50):
It could be exactly what you just said, Nancy. It
could be a state of shock because she sounds remarkably
calm and unfazed, which makes a lot of people jump
to the conclusion that, well, maybe she had something to
do with it. But the reality is it could very
well be a state of shock. I mean, imagine how
shocking to see a stranger's head in a bucket, let
alone your own child.
Speaker 4 (10:11):
And also to doctor Thomas Coyne joining us.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
He is the chief Medical Examiner District to a medical
Examiner's office, State of Florida. Never a lack of business
in Florida. It's like the crime vortex, believe it or not.
Forensic pathologists and neuropathologist toxicologist, and you can find him
on x at doctor t M Coin see a doctor
(10:35):
con Also, I think it would take a mother to
identify that, because when a head is severed, it no
longer really looks like the person you knew. It largely
becomes disfigured looking almost immediately.
Speaker 4 (10:54):
Why is that, well, it certainly can.
Speaker 6 (10:56):
I mean you lose the muscle tone, the normal lively
appearance of the face, you know, either that sort of
flat affect, the normal expressions go away. But also there
could be a little bit of decomposition that occurs, especially
if the death occurred hours or days prior. You lose
all the fluid out of the out of the head
(11:17):
or the blood in particular, so the coloration may be different.
So yeah, and it's out of context for what we
normally expect to see. And I'm assuming shock played a
role in that.
Speaker 4 (11:32):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
Joining me now, Dave Matt Crime Stories investigative reporter, Dave,
thank you for being with us.
Speaker 4 (11:45):
Lead me up to this point.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
What would lead a mom to just wander down to
the basement and look in a bucket?
Speaker 11 (11:53):
Well, in reality, she woke up about three fifteen, three
twenty in the morning, because she heard a door shut downstairs,
and then she heard a car start out in the driveway.
Speaker 4 (12:02):
It's enough to.
Speaker 11 (12:03):
Wake any of us up. So she went down to
see what was going on. And she goes all the
way down the stairs and doesn't see anything. It looks
like it's a little disturbed. They're, you know, a little
bit different than normal. It's when she turns around to
head back up the stairs she glances down to her
right and she sees this bucket and it's got a
(12:23):
towel on it. Nancy, and being a mother and being
curious and knowing that's not a normal way for it
to be, she actually looks inside, and that's how it
all happened. She I can't imagine me waking up at
three o'clock plus in the morning and then all of
a sudden, you've got a head and a bucket just
goes beyond anything any of us can imagine.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Well, of course, Dave mac I'm asking for probative or
evidentiary reasons, because most people would not just wake up
out of a dense sleep and think, oh, let me
go down in the basement and look for a bucket.
But because that would indicate some degree of guilt.
Speaker 4 (13:04):
Right.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
But here the mom was woken up by the sound
of a door slamming, and then she went looking and
to you, Chief Chris Day joining us chief of the
Green BAYPD. Excellent reputation. By the way, Chief Davis, again,
thank you for being with us. The smallest things are probative.
They prove something. For instance, if you pull up to
(13:27):
your house and you notice the front door is slightly
a jar. It may only be an inch, but you
certainly did not leave your front door unlocked and open.
Speaker 4 (13:40):
Right.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
So it's a small thing, but in our world it's
a major red flag. So the moment Mom sees a
bucket sitting out in the floor, I mean it's her place.
She wasn't there before she went to bed the last
time she was in the basement. Now it's there. Now
I understand why Mom wakes up in the middle of
(14:02):
the night, goes downstairs and looks in a bucket, because
if I didn't know those facts, I would think she
may have had something.
Speaker 4 (14:09):
To do with it.
Speaker 5 (14:09):
Yeah, and especially at the beginning of investigation like this,
those are the kind of details that are the police
officers look for and You're right. The whole case really
can turn on a small detail like the condition of
the door, when whoever is responsible for this left the bucket.
You know, obviously we would have a lot of questions
(14:30):
for mom in this situation about what normal looks like
at their house, to try to find those details that
don't fit the norm for them in their home.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
And to Derek Smith, whenever someone is quote clairvoyant, they're
usually guilty.
Speaker 4 (14:48):
Let's just think this through. Okay. Remember O J. Simpson
Orenthal James since in the.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
Double Killer he had a dream he said where he
killed Cole Brown. Okay, then remember Scott Peterson. He's such
a great example for so many facets of crime. He
told his lover Amber Fry, this was going to be
his first Christmas without his wife Lacey, that he was
(15:17):
a widower, and then two weeks later, bam, it was
Christmas and Lacey was dead.
Speaker 4 (15:24):
Either he is clairvoyant or he's a killer.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
And there are many many other examples of when a
murder defendant suddenly has a streak of clairvoyance. The mom
here had a reason for waking up. She has nothing
to do with this. But if I didn't know it
led up to it. I absolutely would have looked at her.
I totally would have given her the hairy eyeball.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
Yeah, Nancy, you can I can understand, you know, when
a defendant comes to me and saying, hey, you know,
things weren't going right. I was fantasizing about these things,
but I didn't really want it to happen in reality,
you know, I mean just talking about O. J.
Speaker 3 (15:57):
Simpson.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
Come on, he's not guilty, right, jury of his peers
found I'm not guilty. Just because he was fantasizing or
having premonitions about these things doesn't mean it's actually happening,
and the state has the burden to prove it.
Speaker 3 (16:08):
Right.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
What did you just say? Did you say Simpson is
not guilty? And what about premonitions?
Speaker 3 (16:14):
Just because you're you're fantasizing and having.
Speaker 4 (16:16):
Thoughts on you can't keep a straight face.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
Oh, we're just having a conversation here, aren't we. You know,
we're just talking about it. You know a lot of
times even divorce, let's say about a divorce, you know,
a spouse has been wrong, even cheating on and they're
just fantasizing about their husband meeting a traumatic or a
drastic ending to his life. Doesn't mean they want it
to happen. But you know, we're humans, we have emotion.
Speaker 4 (16:38):
I want to see your client lists right now, your.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
Divorce client list right now, potentially because you just may
have let a cat out of a bag, clawing angry cat.
So we're talking about mom, what could possibly have woken
her up in the middle of the night, and she
just suddenly comes upon a bucket with a head in it.
Speaker 4 (17:01):
This explains it all. Listen to Mom on the nine one.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
One call because I want to hear if you believe
or I do.
Speaker 7 (17:08):
And then I hurt my doors and heard me man start,
and I like out scared, and I looked at the bathroom,
the lights around in the basement, I heard them mops
and I looked around there. But then when I turned
around to come back up, you have a bucket, how
little bit? And I'm like, oh great, that's why there
(17:30):
not here against their packs. It in a bucket, And
I looked at is in that bucket?
Speaker 3 (17:36):
What's your fun thing?
Speaker 7 (17:38):
Baderio.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
You know it's part of the law and criminal cases
that the prosecutor or the defense can never ask the
jury to put themselves in the shoes of the victim
that cannot be argued. That's reversible error, and if you
do it, you're screwed technical legal term. But the more
(18:02):
I think about this, doctor Sherry Schwartz, when I'm listening
to the mom, I can't help but put myself in
her shoes. I've got a son, I've got a daughter.
I don't want to even let my mind go to
this place where this mom finds her son Shad beheaded
(18:27):
with his head in a bucket. I mean, I don't
think that's anything you can ever get over for the
rest of your life.
Speaker 4 (18:36):
No, most certainly not.
Speaker 9 (18:37):
And imagine she was in the house because she was
able to go downstairs and see what was going on.
So the shock, the guilt, the grief, the trauma, these
are all very real things and they don't go away.
People say, you know that the case will bring closure.
That's closure is basically a myth for victims, victims of
(19:01):
homicide and trauma. And when you were the one who
discovers not even an entire body intact, but the head
of your child in a bucket, I'm not sure that
that's some an image that ever leaves your mind.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
What led up to the moment we are convinced. I'm
convinced the mom had nothing to do with this. I
don't think her boyfriend had.
Speaker 4 (19:24):
Anything to do with that.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
When you're hearing on nine one one, judging by his
demeanor with nine one one and the words he's using.
Speaker 4 (19:31):
What he's saying, but let's listen to someone or no.
Speaker 7 (19:36):
He was your yesterday with some chick and then all
of a sudden, nobody is here. And she came up
to use the restaurant coat time, and she keeps calling
and calling. Now she says that she hears the phone
doll there too. Is she with you right now? Yes?
Speaker 1 (19:55):
Yes, So there's love for I don't know what to do,
and the victim's mom elaborates on the last movements off
her son.
Speaker 4 (20:04):
Listen, when the last time.
Speaker 7 (20:05):
You saw your son out? Well, I guess Wednesday, So
I think him up coming to gads on my maid,
and you know, normally stay here, stay or forfeits. Got
left the pawn tree even here a couple of hours
and give up with Taylor and they coming to day
(20:29):
Taylor's that girl.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Police immediately converge on the scene, and this is what
we learn.
Speaker 10 (20:38):
They see I went downstairs at the bottom of the
stairs to the right there was a green bucket with
a shower towel on top of it. Just to verify
we had an actual head in a bucket. Lifted the
towel off and there was in fact a human severed
head in the bucket.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
From our friends at w b A Y TV two
by the Chief Chris Davis, chief of the Green Bait
PD Chief. Have you noticed I have that in many
murder cases you see the killer try to hide the face,
if not the whole body, but at least the face
(21:18):
of the dead person. For instance, in this case, the
killer not only killed the young man, the son Shay,
but then it puts a towel over the bucket. I've
seen cases where leaves were put over the victim's face.
In the double killing at Delphi of Little Abby and Libby,
(21:44):
twigs and leaves were put over the girl's bodies, particularly
the face.
Speaker 4 (21:49):
I even had a case chief where.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
A mother was killed many people believe, by her daughter,
her adult daughter, and she left allegedly left the mom's
naked body on mom's bed and then shoved a white
wicker trash basket over the mom's head.
Speaker 4 (22:13):
Have you noticed that? I mean I'm just a lawyer.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
I'm not a shrink, but that's got to mean something psychologically.
Speaker 5 (22:19):
Yeah, I think that is very common at crime scenes.
And you know, you can speculate as to why that is.
I think, you know, we're accustomed because we're social, social
animals and so, and the way we interact with people
is face to face. And I think at some level
what's going on with someone in that situation is they
(22:40):
don't want to look the person in the eye that
they just committed this ultimate violation of that person too.
Speaker 4 (22:49):
So I don't quite get it. Have you ever seen it?
Speaker 1 (22:51):
Derek Smith, veteran defense attorney, where the head or the
face is covered. I've seen it time after time after time.
They am I put a blanket over the victim. They
might put a sweater over the face.
Speaker 4 (23:04):
It's almost as if it's instinctive.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
You know what, How before a dog sits down, it
goes around and around and around and then it sits down.
Speaker 4 (23:11):
Why don't know, but it happens. I don't know what
to make of it.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
But in this case, you've got a severed head and
a bucket. What you think putting a tea towel over
It's gonna make it go away. Nobody's gonna notice it.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
Well, obviously not if it's something like just a tea
towel over a dead body. But I mean, from my experience,
I've seen just you know, especially emotional type crimes and
specifically murders and things of that nature. After it's done,
there's a shock, there's a feeling of regret, and you're right,
they just covered up because they don't want it.
Speaker 3 (23:42):
They don't want to think of it anymore.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
They want to obviously besides hiding a body and trying
to get away with the crime, they don't want to
They don't want to face the reality of what they've
just done, so they cover it up and just put
it away in their mind and hope it goes away.
Speaker 3 (23:55):
But no, it doesn't work like that.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
Finding your son's head, a severed head in a bucket
covered with a tea title in your basement. Again, I
don't think the mom can ever come back from that. Dismemberments,
dismemberments of dead bodies quite the anomaly, but happens more
(24:19):
often than I want to think.
Speaker 4 (24:22):
For instance, the case of Joel Guy Junior.
Speaker 12 (24:26):
Joel and Lisa Guy were found deceased in their residence.
The parents are believed to have been murdered between late
Friday night, the twenty fifth and midday on Saturday, the
twenty sixth. Both suffered multiple vicious stab wounds as well
as dismemberment. Joel Junior was visiting from Louisiana. He arrived
in Knoxville on Wednesday, the twenty seconds and departed on Sunday,
(24:50):
the twenty seventh. A welfare check initially called in by
Lisa's coworkers on the twenty eight led to discovery of
multiple gruesome crime scenes throughout the residence. Joel Junior placed
portions of the remains in an acid based solution in
an attempt to destroy evidence.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
He actually put his mom's head in a cooking pot
and was cooking it on the stove. To doctor Sherry Schwartz,
and boy, do I need a shrink, renowned forensic psychologist.
There's the mind of a killer, that's one thing, But
the mind of a killer that then dismembers as a
whole another animal. What is the motivation? What goads someone
(25:35):
to dismember a body? And it's not just disposal, because
in this case, the body was dismembered and then left
in a bucket in the basement to be found. So
the dismemberment means something psychologically, but what.
Speaker 9 (25:54):
Well. Traditional wisdom is that it's to conceal the crime,
but you're right, it's not just about that. It could
very much be a fascination with knowing what it's like
to kill somebody and cut them off, which is really
bizarre in something that most of us can't understand, but
it's a fact people will do that, and there's a
(26:16):
level of viciousness there. In this case, what strikes me
is covering the head in the bucket, to me, is
not about not so much about oh, I can't deal
with what I've done, because understand that when somebody takes
it to this level, they're not concerned with the well
being of anyone else. But leaving that head behind like
(26:37):
that was very much to be about making sure the
family did discover it and wanting to inflict pain. So
that could be another aspect of dismemberment.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
Completely eviscerting, destroying the victim's body once they're already dead.
To doctor Thomas Coin, joining US Chief Medical Examiner District
to Emmy's office, Florida, in the case, we were just
talking about Joel Guy. He had been told his family
was going to cut him off. The parents were retiring
(27:08):
and they needed the little money that they had left
to support themselves, so he would have to make a
living now. He had been going to school and school,
and I'm all about education, but he was in school
for like ten years and didn't have a job. I
guess he stayed home and played dungeons and dragons or
mortal combat. I don't know, but whatever, he was angry
(27:30):
because he was going to be cut off. Listen to
this description from doctor Amy Hawes, the medical examiner in
that case. His mother was dismembered. Her head was severed
from her body, her arms disarticulated at the shoulders.
Speaker 4 (27:46):
And you know what, coin I would not just say
to the jury dismembered.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
Oh no, they have to hear every fact because every
minute the dismemberment continues is more men's ray intent malice,
which goes.
Speaker 4 (28:03):
To murder one.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
And yes, I know, before you jump in, Derek Smith,
that the dismemberment happens after the crime, but this shows
frame of mind, arms disarticulated, legs disarticulated.
Speaker 4 (28:15):
At the knee.
Speaker 7 (28:18):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
The dad was also dismembered mister guy, his legs disarticulated
at the hips, her head completely severed, her arms completely severed.
Speaker 4 (28:30):
This takes a long time, dtor coin.
Speaker 6 (28:34):
Long time and energy. Yeah, there's a lot of tissue
to cut through, especially going through the hip. It's difficult
even you know, during the autopsy, if I'm trying to
disarticulate a hip to look for trauma, it takes a
little bit of an effort.
Speaker 3 (28:47):
So yes, not an easy process.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
No, no, And it.
Speaker 4 (28:51):
Indicates a male killer.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
The instances of female killers that dismember very very low,
almost non existent. And this behavior is not within one
certain type of socioeconomic level. It crosses race, it crosses education,
it crosses money. Crime stories with Nancy Grace, a mom
(29:24):
finds her son's severed head in a bucket in a
basement with a tea towel covering the top of the bucket.
Speaker 4 (29:33):
Who did it? If we don't think it's mom or boyfriend?
Speaker 1 (29:37):
That leads me to a girlfriend, I've got a pretty
good reason for blaming her.
Speaker 4 (29:44):
Listen, those were the ibelacked out during that time. But
she needs time to think, think about what.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
Why isn't she upset her lover's head is in a
bucket in the basement, covered by a tea towel. That
from our friends at WBAYTV. Blacked out.
Speaker 4 (30:19):
Derek Smith. That's convenient.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
She's having sex with her boyfriend at one moment she
blacks out and suddenly right there in the basement, his
head's in a bucket.
Speaker 4 (30:29):
Funny how that works? She blacked out. Derek.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
Please tell me you haven't used the blackout defense. I
bet you have, haven't you.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
Well, I wouldn't necessarily call it the blackout defense. I
would say that, you know, chemically, there was too much
stress from knowing what just happened, realizing that, you know,
the person she loves is now gone forever, and she
can't take the shock and passes out. You know, there's
a lot of things that can lead up to that
that can put a person into a situation where they
no longer have control of themselves.
Speaker 3 (30:57):
Are the faculties they pass out. It's over.
Speaker 4 (30:59):
Wow, you know what.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
She seems perfectly in control, and I just saw her
pulling a kim Kay and doing awesome selfie. Wow, she
knows how to do that, but yet blacks out, blacks out,
and she says, I need time to think Okay, listen
to more of telor she business.
Speaker 4 (31:23):
As she went on, what it could go up and down?
Speaker 1 (31:32):
Okay from our friends at w b A Y to
Chief Chris Davis joining us, Chief green Bay PD, how
many times have you had a suspect black out at
just the critical moment?
Speaker 5 (31:45):
Surprisingly often? And as you say, usually that's a pretty
good red flag for investigators. This is somebody who probably
did it.
Speaker 4 (31:56):
Chief Davis.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
Also, and I'm certainly not the church lady. People can
have sex, however they want to have sex as long
as it's consensual. But isn't it true, Chief Davis, that
the Green Bay Police interrogated the girlfriend If you want
to still call her that tell us your business. And
she describes how she likes to strangle her boyfriend during
(32:19):
sex with a dog chain, placing the chain around his
neck and then quote walking him like a dog. When
asked if the boyfriend likes it, she says, I have
no idea.
Speaker 4 (32:33):
Did that happen?
Speaker 5 (32:34):
Chief, Yes, that's all true.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
What exactly did she say about how she liked to
strangle her boyfriend with a dog chain, a metal dog chain.
Speaker 5 (32:44):
She made a comment to investigators that she would she
and her boyfriend would use this dog chain to engage
in autoeroticism where they would get him just to the
point of passing out.
Speaker 4 (32:58):
Chief, would you repeat that place?
Speaker 5 (33:00):
She did tell investigators that this was something that the
two of them engaged in together, that she would choke
him with this dog chain until he was almost to
the point of passing out.
Speaker 4 (33:15):
And he liked it.
Speaker 5 (33:16):
Uh, we'll never know, but that she believed he did.
Speaker 13 (33:20):
Apparently again convenient listen in the basement with the house
of themselves, Theorian and Shad Business engage in sexual intercourse
as well as erotic asphyxiation, something the couple has done before.
Speaker 8 (33:31):
In previous encounters, they have used metal chains, and she
Business proceeds to use a metal dog leash to strangle Shad.
Theorian sher Business continues to strangle Theorian until he starts
to cough up blood, then continues to choke him with
her bare hands for three to five more minutes until
Theorian is dead.
Speaker 1 (33:49):
She stated that this was all consensual, that he had
done this before, but I doubt before he started coughing
up blood during the erotic.
Speaker 5 (34:07):
Asphyxiation, right, I doubt that as well.
Speaker 4 (34:11):
You're being extremely tight lipped on this and I think
I know why.
Speaker 11 (34:14):
Listen, Chad Theorian is dead, but Taylorsha Business continues to
perform for the next several hours. In the morning, shab
Business positions the body on the bed and, using knives
she finds in the house, including Cerretti breadknife, decapitates theory
in over a bucket and a storage toat to contain
the blood. Dumping the blood down the basement shower drain,
shab Business removes all the organs from his body and
(34:36):
places them in plastic bags cardboard boxes the toat used
earlier for blood, and places the head in the bucket.
Speaker 4 (34:42):
I mean, don't you just want to book her right
there and say this is done. I can't take it
anymore in here?
Speaker 1 (34:48):
You do, in your heart, you do.
Speaker 5 (34:50):
But you also have a job to do as a
police officer, and you know you have to anticipate an
adversarial process later on in court. And that means that
for as long as it takes, and in this case,
this took quite a while, you have to process that
entire scene and be very thorough because those small details
matter when this case goes to court, and it's especially
(35:13):
important for the family of the victim to get you know,
you never get closure out of something like this, but
to at least try to bring some justice to this situation.
But as you learn pretty early as a police officer
that sometimes you have to just suspend disbelief, remember that
you have a job to do and do it the
(35:35):
right way.
Speaker 1 (35:36):
In an extremely rare scenario world wide, a female tailorshi
business is charged with murder and decapitation and full dismemberment
of the victim, Shad.
Speaker 4 (35:50):
But her violence doesn't end there. Look what happens in court.
Out of the blue, she attacks her lawyer. That's twenty
twenty three. You have to have multiple.
Speaker 1 (36:04):
Sheriffs, three male sheriffs surround her. That's our friends at
ABC seven in Chicago.
Speaker 4 (36:09):
What brought that on?
Speaker 11 (36:11):
Dave mack No, she didn't want to go with certain
things as a defense strategy, and she didn't like the
way he was representing her. So instead of talking in
a normal way, she just attacked. Seems like that's her
normal way of dealing with things. Just get physical in
a hurry.
Speaker 4 (36:26):
Okay, that was in twenty twenty three.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
When you take a look at her posing for that selfie,
it seems hard to reconcile that photo with what we're.
Speaker 4 (36:32):
Seeing in court.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
That was in twenty twenty three with that lawyer. But
it ain't over yet. Okay, she's doing it again. That's
for our friends at Court TV. That is a different lawyer, right.
Speaker 4 (36:47):
Dave Mack.
Speaker 11 (36:48):
She actually because as soon as she attacks the attorney,
they drop away. I mean she's getting you know, attorneys
provided to her, and you know, once she attacks, there's
nothing they can do with her. On top of that,
when the next guy comes in, he asks the judge
to accuse himself from the case because well he saw
the attack.
Speaker 4 (37:07):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (37:07):
And again it's not over yet. Here she's coming into
court again. She's coming into court with a spit maask
on and she is cuffed and she looks angry. Isn't
it true, Dave Matt that she also attacked a nurse
and a jail employee.
Speaker 12 (37:30):
She did.
Speaker 11 (37:30):
Nancy, She had a somehow got a staple in her arm,
and they brought her to the nurses station in the
jail in the prison and as soon as she's sitting there,
you know, in the chair, the woman got the nurse
uses the tweezers to get the staple out and the
minute the tweezers touch the staple, she business attacks. She
throws the nurse as far as she can, grabs a
(37:52):
metal tray and starts swinging it, pounding on everybody a share.
One of the guards there was able to put hands
on her and get her in to the wall and
then eventually get her on the ground, but it was
it took a few minutes. It was not a quick
in and out process. It took time to get her
under control. She just wouldn't stop, Chief Davis.
Speaker 1 (38:10):
If this woman ever gets out of jail, you do
know she's going to kill somebody else, right.
Speaker 5 (38:17):
Yeah, I think it's fair to say she's demonstrated that
she's a pretty serious threat to public safety and Chief Davis.
Speaker 1 (38:24):
You know, when you see her, for instance, taking that selfie,
she looks so tiny and petite, it's very hard to
look at her and realize she is a stone cold killer, Chief,
But you encounter.
Speaker 8 (38:38):
That every day, we do.
Speaker 5 (38:40):
You know, most people that we encounter in our business
who get arrested are fairly normal folks. But every once
in a while you run into somebody who is just
a dangerous human being.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
This case is on appeal, God forbid a new trial
is ordered, the state will again build its case. If
you know or think you know anything about this case,
please dial nine two zero four four eight three two
hundred and tailorship business.
Speaker 4 (39:16):
Where you are right now in the pen.
Speaker 1 (39:20):
It's just a little pit stop on your way to
hell an'sy Grace signing off Goodnes
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, Breaking news tonight, cutting and sawing,
a lover is dismembered, the mom finds a head in
a bucket. Good evening, This is Crime Stories. I'm Nancy Grace.
(00:23):
I want to thank you for being with us. Ahead
in a Bucket. Let me just start with that straight
out to veteran trial lawyer criminal defense attorney Derek Smith
joining us and you can find him at Dwsmith Legal
dot com. Derek, thank you for being with us. You know,
(00:43):
when we were in law school, Derek at your law
school on me at my own, we had all these
lofty legal thoughts, like all sorts of constitutional arguments and
theoretical back and forth about the meaning the founding Father's
really intended. I never really thought through to the logical
(01:05):
conclusion that I would be talking about ahead in a bucket,
did you.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
No, No, Nancy, or else, I had have probably picked
a different profession, you know, not something that you're aspiring
to be. When we're in law school, look about all
the constitutional law, all the ways we're going to change
the world for the better.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
Never thought we'd be the one on the other end, right, No, I.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
Never did think I would be discussing a head in
a bucket.
Speaker 4 (01:28):
But you know, a special guest joining us.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
We're very proud to have Chief Chris Davis, chief of
the Green Bay PD, so previously in Portland, Oregon Police
Bureau and Arizona State University PD.
Speaker 4 (01:43):
Wow, okay, what does that mean to me?
Speaker 1 (01:45):
You've seen a lot of action, but up until this case,
had you ever encountered a human head, a severed head
in a bucket?
Speaker 5 (01:57):
Uh? No, in all that time, this was a new
one for me.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
When we were in training, for instance, when I was
in law school and arguing in moot court pretend court
to get ready to become a trial lawyer.
Speaker 4 (02:10):
I guess we all knew it was out there.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
When you were in let's just say, cadet school or
police training, you knew it existed. But it's a whole
another thing. When it suddenly gets real and there's.
Speaker 5 (02:24):
A head in a bucket, you know it really is.
And we try to train police officers to have skills
that they can use in any situation they find themselves in.
But the real world sometimes just has things in it
that we can't fully prepare you for.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
You know, it's interesting, Chief Davis will so many things
every day for me.
Speaker 4 (02:42):
Unlike what Derek Smith said.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
If he thought he was going to have to talk
about a head in the bucket, he may have chosen
another profession.
Speaker 4 (02:47):
I would not.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
That would make me want to put bad guys in
jail even more, even more intensely. But I'm not defending them.
I'm not trying to get them out of jail.
Speaker 4 (03:00):
Davis.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
Another thing is, in all the years I've investigated, prosecuted,
had gone to the more gone to crime scenes. I
never got sick to my stomach. I never felt queasy.
I never broke down and cried. Other things more poignant
details get me upset, but the carnage doesn't. It kind
of makes me angry. It makes me want justice. It
(03:25):
makes me wonder why the bad guy wasn't in jail already,
because you don't go from zero to one hundred and
ten mph overnight.
Speaker 4 (03:32):
There had to be.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
A lead up, unless way, whoa, whoa, whoa, I'm crazy myself.
Speaker 4 (03:37):
There's coburger, here's a PhD.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
Student, everybody thinks is meek and mild Mannard, and now
for murders. So I guess from the outside looking in.
Although it made been brewing for a long time. He
did go to zero to one hundred and twenty mph
literally overnight, So I guess it can happen.
Speaker 5 (03:57):
Chief it can, And for us when we or something
like this, our job is to find out the truth
so that we can refer the matter to our prosecutors,
our partners in the DA's office, in the court system.
But you know, when you encounter something like this, the
person's history can be interesting, but what you're really looking
(04:18):
for is what can we prove actually happened in this instance.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
I'm so glad you if you didn't say what we're
looking for is why, because I would, you know, beat
my brains out. For about the first five years that
I was a felony prosecutor in INTERCDI, Atlanta, I would
look over at the defendant think why would you do
this and leave such a wake of pain trailing behind
you just like a motor boat.
Speaker 4 (04:43):
And then one day I was about into year five,
I thought, why am I wasting.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
My time trying to figure out what he was thinking
when he committed a double murder, A heinus double murder?
Speaker 4 (04:55):
Why am I even worried?
Speaker 1 (04:56):
That's not an element of proof showing motive. So let's
get right to it, and let's start for so many
violent crimes start with the nine to one one.
Speaker 6 (05:09):
You.
Speaker 7 (05:11):
Said an officer at eight twenty nine, Stonebrook just woke
me up to swear that Calder subs ahead of her
son in a base by eighty nine Stony brooky eye right, yesty,
(05:34):
just so much.
Speaker 8 (05:35):
At a house department who.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Plays okay, Derek Smith, a veteran trial lawyer, criminal defense attorney,
which is its own breed lawyer.
Speaker 4 (05:44):
Did you hear the nine one one up?
Speaker 1 (05:47):
The guy says, my girlfriend just woke me up swear
she found her the severed hit of her son in
the basement. And what does the nine one one dispatch say?
Can you repeat the address, sir? And he says eighteen
nine is Tony Brook And the guy dispatch says, st n.
Speaker 4 (06:06):
E What I mean? What? What is he brain dead?
Speaker 1 (06:11):
The guy just hears that there's a head in a bucket,
the head is in the basement.
Speaker 4 (06:18):
He's like, can you spell stony please? Is there an
E in that?
Speaker 3 (06:21):
What we gotta understand?
Speaker 2 (06:22):
I mean they're on the other end of the emergency
phone call trying to understand what's going on too. You know,
it's not every day you get a phone call like
that that there's something in the head in a basket.
But they're trying to de escalate the situation too. They
want to make sure the person on the other end
is calm enough to at least relay the information about
what's going on, especially when you hear something.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
Heinous like this.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
Now, you want to make sure the person calling you
is safe enough in what's going on. Obviously the person
with the head in the basket has another issue going on,
but gets more into that later.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
I'm just telling you, I'm always amazed and a little
confounded by the way dispatch responds.
Speaker 4 (07:01):
But hey, you know what, I hear what you're saying.
Let's hear more of that nine one one call here again.
Speaker 7 (07:07):
I don't happy my girls swears that she's follow her
as severed ahead of her son at the baby a bucket.
I went down.
Speaker 9 (07:16):
I can't go with them.
Speaker 7 (07:18):
I lead. That's kind of a free though. We have
to say that, yeah, and who who is she claiming?
Speaker 10 (07:32):
Her son?
Speaker 3 (07:33):
Al her son twenty four, twenty twenty five.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Now to doctor Sherry Schwartz, joining US forensic psychologists specializing
in capital mitigation. You can find her at panthermitigation dot com.
She's the author of Criminal Behavior and my favorite of hers,
where law and psychology intersect issues in legal psychology. Doctor Sherry,
thank you for being with us. Did you notice the
(07:59):
guy hear the mom's boyfriend, he's not going down and
looking himself.
Speaker 4 (08:07):
He's saying, she's claiming it's her son. What's with him?
Speaker 1 (08:11):
Why doesn't he go down there and find out? And
he's sounding like he's disbelieving the mom.
Speaker 9 (08:17):
Well, it is something that would cause a state of
disbelief in some people, especially if they haven't seen it.
And I'm guessing that he didn't want to go down
to see it, because if it's true, it's absolutely horrific.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Uh.
Speaker 9 (08:32):
You know, and imagine what mom was going through that
she sees her son's head in a bucket in the basement.
So I think that's a natural reaction, although I think
most of us think we would run down there to
see what was going on.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
So finally Mom takes the phone listen a bucket?
Speaker 7 (08:58):
What makes you think? At what did you see? Calculating Okay,
where's the uh, where's the rest of the body?
Speaker 1 (09:12):
At No, I am you're hearing the mother of the victim.
And I'm wondering doctor Sherry Schwartz if she is in shock,
because I notice that she can't say it again. The
dispatch says, what did you see? And instead of recounting
it again, she says, exactly what I told you. It's
(09:35):
like I've said it once. I don't even like saying
it right now. She didn't want to say again, my
son's head is in a bucket. She won't say it again.
She can't bring herself to say it. What is that response?
Speaker 9 (09:50):
It could be exactly what you just said, Nancy. It
could be a state of shock because she sounds remarkably
calm and unfazed, which makes a lot of people jump
to the conclusion that, well, maybe she had something to
do with it. But the reality is it could very
well be a state of shock. I mean, imagine how
shocking to see a stranger's head in a bucket, let
alone your own child.
Speaker 4 (10:11):
And also to doctor Thomas Coyne joining us.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
He is the chief Medical Examiner District to a medical
Examiner's office, State of Florida. Never a lack of business
in Florida. It's like the crime vortex, believe it or not.
Forensic pathologists and neuropathologist toxicologist, and you can find him
on x at doctor t M Coin see a doctor
(10:35):
con Also, I think it would take a mother to
identify that, because when a head is severed, it no
longer really looks like the person you knew. It largely
becomes disfigured looking almost immediately.
Speaker 4 (10:54):
Why is that, well, it certainly can.
Speaker 6 (10:56):
I mean you lose the muscle tone, the normal lively
appearance of the face, you know, either that sort of
flat affect, the normal expressions go away. But also there
could be a little bit of decomposition that occurs, especially
if the death occurred hours or days prior. You lose
all the fluid out of the out of the head
(11:17):
or the blood in particular, so the coloration may be different.
So yeah, and it's out of context for what we
normally expect to see. And I'm assuming shock played a
role in that.
Speaker 4 (11:32):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
Joining me now, Dave Matt Crime Stories investigative reporter, Dave,
thank you for being with us.
Speaker 4 (11:45):
Lead me up to this point.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
What would lead a mom to just wander down to
the basement and look in a bucket?
Speaker 11 (11:53):
Well, in reality, she woke up about three fifteen, three
twenty in the morning, because she heard a door shut downstairs,
and then she heard a car start out in the driveway.
Speaker 4 (12:02):
It's enough to.
Speaker 11 (12:03):
Wake any of us up. So she went down to
see what was going on. And she goes all the
way down the stairs and doesn't see anything. It looks
like it's a little disturbed. They're, you know, a little
bit different than normal. It's when she turns around to
head back up the stairs she glances down to her
right and she sees this bucket and it's got a
(12:23):
towel on it. Nancy, and being a mother and being
curious and knowing that's not a normal way for it
to be, she actually looks inside, and that's how it
all happened. She I can't imagine me waking up at
three o'clock plus in the morning and then all of
a sudden, you've got a head and a bucket just
goes beyond anything any of us can imagine.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Well, of course, Dave mac I'm asking for probative or
evidentiary reasons, because most people would not just wake up
out of a dense sleep and think, oh, let me
go down in the basement and look for a bucket.
But because that would indicate some degree of guilt.
Speaker 4 (13:04):
Right.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
But here the mom was woken up by the sound
of a door slamming, and then she went looking and
to you, Chief Chris Day joining us chief of the
Green BAYPD. Excellent reputation. By the way, Chief Davis, again,
thank you for being with us. The smallest things are probative.
They prove something. For instance, if you pull up to
(13:27):
your house and you notice the front door is slightly
a jar. It may only be an inch, but you
certainly did not leave your front door unlocked and open.
Speaker 4 (13:40):
Right.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
So it's a small thing, but in our world it's
a major red flag. So the moment Mom sees a
bucket sitting out in the floor, I mean it's her place.
She wasn't there before she went to bed the last
time she was in the basement. Now it's there. Now
I understand why Mom wakes up in the middle of
(14:02):
the night, goes downstairs and looks in a bucket, because
if I didn't know those facts, I would think she
may have had something.
Speaker 4 (14:09):
To do with it.
Speaker 5 (14:09):
Yeah, and especially at the beginning of investigation like this,
those are the kind of details that are the police
officers look for and You're right. The whole case really
can turn on a small detail like the condition of
the door, when whoever is responsible for this left the bucket.
You know, obviously we would have a lot of questions
(14:30):
for mom in this situation about what normal looks like
at their house, to try to find those details that
don't fit the norm for them in their home.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
And to Derek Smith, whenever someone is quote clairvoyant, they're
usually guilty.
Speaker 4 (14:48):
Let's just think this through. Okay. Remember O J. Simpson
Orenthal James since in the.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
Double Killer he had a dream he said where he
killed Cole Brown. Okay, then remember Scott Peterson. He's such
a great example for so many facets of crime. He
told his lover Amber Fry, this was going to be
his first Christmas without his wife Lacey, that he was
(15:17):
a widower, and then two weeks later, bam, it was
Christmas and Lacey was dead.
Speaker 4 (15:24):
Either he is clairvoyant or he's a killer.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
And there are many many other examples of when a
murder defendant suddenly has a streak of clairvoyance. The mom
here had a reason for waking up. She has nothing
to do with this. But if I didn't know it
led up to it. I absolutely would have looked at her.
I totally would have given her the hairy eyeball.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
Yeah, Nancy, you can I can understand, you know, when
a defendant comes to me and saying, hey, you know,
things weren't going right. I was fantasizing about these things,
but I didn't really want it to happen in reality,
you know, I mean just talking about O. J.
Speaker 3 (15:57):
Simpson.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
Come on, he's not guilty, right, jury of his peers
found I'm not guilty. Just because he was fantasizing or
having premonitions about these things doesn't mean it's actually happening,
and the state has the burden to prove it.
Speaker 3 (16:08):
Right.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
What did you just say? Did you say Simpson is
not guilty? And what about premonitions?
Speaker 3 (16:14):
Just because you're you're fantasizing and having.
Speaker 4 (16:16):
Thoughts on you can't keep a straight face.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
Oh, we're just having a conversation here, aren't we. You know,
we're just talking about it. You know a lot of
times even divorce, let's say about a divorce, you know,
a spouse has been wrong, even cheating on and they're
just fantasizing about their husband meeting a traumatic or a
drastic ending to his life. Doesn't mean they want it
to happen. But you know, we're humans, we have emotion.
Speaker 4 (16:38):
I want to see your client lists right now, your.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
Divorce client list right now, potentially because you just may
have let a cat out of a bag, clawing angry cat.
So we're talking about mom, what could possibly have woken
her up in the middle of the night, and she
just suddenly comes upon a bucket with a head in it.
Speaker 4 (17:01):
This explains it all. Listen to Mom on the nine one.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
One call because I want to hear if you believe
or I do.
Speaker 7 (17:08):
And then I hurt my doors and heard me man start,
and I like out scared, and I looked at the bathroom,
the lights around in the basement, I heard them mops
and I looked around there. But then when I turned
around to come back up, you have a bucket, how
little bit? And I'm like, oh great, that's why there
(17:30):
not here against their packs. It in a bucket, And
I looked at is in that bucket?
Speaker 3 (17:36):
What's your fun thing?
Speaker 7 (17:38):
Baderio.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
You know it's part of the law and criminal cases
that the prosecutor or the defense can never ask the
jury to put themselves in the shoes of the victim
that cannot be argued. That's reversible error, and if you
do it, you're screwed technical legal term. But the more
(18:02):
I think about this, doctor Sherry Schwartz, when I'm listening
to the mom, I can't help but put myself in
her shoes. I've got a son, I've got a daughter.
I don't want to even let my mind go to
this place where this mom finds her son Shad beheaded
(18:27):
with his head in a bucket. I mean, I don't
think that's anything you can ever get over for the
rest of your life.
Speaker 4 (18:36):
No, most certainly not.
Speaker 9 (18:37):
And imagine she was in the house because she was
able to go downstairs and see what was going on.
So the shock, the guilt, the grief, the trauma, these
are all very real things and they don't go away.
People say, you know that the case will bring closure.
That's closure is basically a myth for victims, victims of
(19:01):
homicide and trauma. And when you were the one who
discovers not even an entire body intact, but the head
of your child in a bucket, I'm not sure that
that's some an image that ever leaves your mind.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
What led up to the moment we are convinced. I'm
convinced the mom had nothing to do with this. I
don't think her boyfriend had.
Speaker 4 (19:24):
Anything to do with that.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
When you're hearing on nine one one, judging by his
demeanor with nine one one and the words he's using.
Speaker 4 (19:31):
What he's saying, but let's listen to someone or no.
Speaker 7 (19:36):
He was your yesterday with some chick and then all
of a sudden, nobody is here. And she came up
to use the restaurant coat time, and she keeps calling
and calling. Now she says that she hears the phone
doll there too. Is she with you right now? Yes?
Speaker 1 (19:55):
Yes, So there's love for I don't know what to do,
and the victim's mom elaborates on the last movements off
her son.
Speaker 4 (20:04):
Listen, when the last time.
Speaker 7 (20:05):
You saw your son out? Well, I guess Wednesday, So
I think him up coming to gads on my maid,
and you know, normally stay here, stay or forfeits. Got
left the pawn tree even here a couple of hours
and give up with Taylor and they coming to day
(20:29):
Taylor's that girl.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Police immediately converge on the scene, and this is what
we learn.
Speaker 10 (20:38):
They see I went downstairs at the bottom of the
stairs to the right there was a green bucket with
a shower towel on top of it. Just to verify
we had an actual head in a bucket. Lifted the
towel off and there was in fact a human severed
head in the bucket.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
From our friends at w b A Y TV two
by the Chief Chris Davis, chief of the Green Bait
PD Chief. Have you noticed I have that in many
murder cases you see the killer try to hide the face,
if not the whole body, but at least the face
(21:18):
of the dead person. For instance, in this case, the
killer not only killed the young man, the son Shay,
but then it puts a towel over the bucket. I've
seen cases where leaves were put over the victim's face.
In the double killing at Delphi of Little Abby and Libby,
(21:44):
twigs and leaves were put over the girl's bodies, particularly
the face.
Speaker 4 (21:49):
I even had a case chief where.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
A mother was killed many people believe, by her daughter,
her adult daughter, and she left allegedly left the mom's
naked body on mom's bed and then shoved a white
wicker trash basket over the mom's head.
Speaker 4 (22:13):
Have you noticed that? I mean I'm just a lawyer.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
I'm not a shrink, but that's got to mean something psychologically.
Speaker 5 (22:19):
Yeah, I think that is very common at crime scenes.
And you know, you can speculate as to why that is.
I think, you know, we're accustomed because we're social, social
animals and so, and the way we interact with people
is face to face. And I think at some level
what's going on with someone in that situation is they
(22:40):
don't want to look the person in the eye that
they just committed this ultimate violation of that person too.
Speaker 4 (22:49):
So I don't quite get it. Have you ever seen it?
Speaker 1 (22:51):
Derek Smith, veteran defense attorney, where the head or the
face is covered. I've seen it time after time after time.
They am I put a blanket over the victim. They
might put a sweater over the face.
Speaker 4 (23:04):
It's almost as if it's instinctive.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
You know what, How before a dog sits down, it
goes around and around and around and then it sits down.
Speaker 4 (23:11):
Why don't know, but it happens. I don't know what
to make of it.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
But in this case, you've got a severed head and
a bucket. What you think putting a tea towel over
It's gonna make it go away. Nobody's gonna notice it.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
Well, obviously not if it's something like just a tea
towel over a dead body. But I mean, from my experience,
I've seen just you know, especially emotional type crimes and
specifically murders and things of that nature. After it's done,
there's a shock, there's a feeling of regret, and you're right,
they just covered up because they don't want it.
Speaker 3 (23:42):
They don't want to think of it anymore.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
They want to obviously besides hiding a body and trying
to get away with the crime, they don't want to
They don't want to face the reality of what they've
just done, so they cover it up and just put
it away in their mind and hope it goes away.
Speaker 3 (23:55):
But no, it doesn't work like that.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
Finding your son's head, a severed head in a bucket
covered with a tea title in your basement. Again, I
don't think the mom can ever come back from that. Dismemberments,
dismemberments of dead bodies quite the anomaly, but happens more
(24:19):
often than I want to think.
Speaker 4 (24:22):
For instance, the case of Joel Guy Junior.
Speaker 12 (24:26):
Joel and Lisa Guy were found deceased in their residence.
The parents are believed to have been murdered between late
Friday night, the twenty fifth and midday on Saturday, the
twenty sixth. Both suffered multiple vicious stab wounds as well
as dismemberment. Joel Junior was visiting from Louisiana. He arrived
in Knoxville on Wednesday, the twenty seconds and departed on Sunday,
(24:50):
the twenty seventh. A welfare check initially called in by
Lisa's coworkers on the twenty eight led to discovery of
multiple gruesome crime scenes throughout the residence. Joel Junior placed
portions of the remains in an acid based solution in
an attempt to destroy evidence.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
He actually put his mom's head in a cooking pot
and was cooking it on the stove. To doctor Sherry Schwartz,
and boy, do I need a shrink, renowned forensic psychologist.
There's the mind of a killer, that's one thing, But
the mind of a killer that then dismembers as a
whole another animal. What is the motivation? What goads someone
(25:35):
to dismember a body? And it's not just disposal, because
in this case, the body was dismembered and then left
in a bucket in the basement to be found. So
the dismemberment means something psychologically, but what.
Speaker 9 (25:54):
Well. Traditional wisdom is that it's to conceal the crime,
but you're right, it's not just about that. It could
very much be a fascination with knowing what it's like
to kill somebody and cut them off, which is really
bizarre in something that most of us can't understand, but
it's a fact people will do that, and there's a
(26:16):
level of viciousness there. In this case, what strikes me
is covering the head in the bucket, to me, is
not about not so much about oh, I can't deal
with what I've done, because understand that when somebody takes
it to this level, they're not concerned with the well
being of anyone else. But leaving that head behind like
(26:37):
that was very much to be about making sure the
family did discover it and wanting to inflict pain. So
that could be another aspect of dismemberment.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
Completely eviscerting, destroying the victim's body once they're already dead.
To doctor Thomas Coin, joining US Chief Medical Examiner District
to Emmy's office, Florida, in the case, we were just
talking about Joel Guy. He had been told his family
was going to cut him off. The parents were retiring
(27:08):
and they needed the little money that they had left
to support themselves, so he would have to make a
living now. He had been going to school and school,
and I'm all about education, but he was in school
for like ten years and didn't have a job. I
guess he stayed home and played dungeons and dragons or
mortal combat. I don't know, but whatever, he was angry
(27:30):
because he was going to be cut off. Listen to
this description from doctor Amy Hawes, the medical examiner in
that case. His mother was dismembered. Her head was severed
from her body, her arms disarticulated at the shoulders.
Speaker 4 (27:46):
And you know what, coin I would not just say
to the jury dismembered.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
Oh no, they have to hear every fact because every
minute the dismemberment continues is more men's ray intent malice,
which goes.
Speaker 4 (28:03):
To murder one.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
And yes, I know, before you jump in, Derek Smith,
that the dismemberment happens after the crime, but this shows
frame of mind, arms disarticulated, legs disarticulated.
Speaker 4 (28:15):
At the knee.
Speaker 7 (28:18):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
The dad was also dismembered mister guy, his legs disarticulated
at the hips, her head completely severed, her arms completely severed.
Speaker 4 (28:30):
This takes a long time, dtor coin.
Speaker 6 (28:34):
Long time and energy. Yeah, there's a lot of tissue
to cut through, especially going through the hip. It's difficult
even you know, during the autopsy, if I'm trying to
disarticulate a hip to look for trauma, it takes a
little bit of an effort.
Speaker 3 (28:47):
So yes, not an easy process.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
No, no, And it.
Speaker 4 (28:51):
Indicates a male killer.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
The instances of female killers that dismember very very low,
almost non existent. And this behavior is not within one
certain type of socioeconomic level. It crosses race, it crosses education,
it crosses money. Crime stories with Nancy Grace, a mom
(29:24):
finds her son's severed head in a bucket in a
basement with a tea towel covering the top of the bucket.
Speaker 4 (29:33):
Who did it? If we don't think it's mom or boyfriend?
Speaker 1 (29:37):
That leads me to a girlfriend, I've got a pretty
good reason for blaming her.
Speaker 4 (29:44):
Listen, those were the ibelacked out during that time. But
she needs time to think, think about what.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
Why isn't she upset her lover's head is in a
bucket in the basement, covered by a tea towel. That
from our friends at WBAYTV. Blacked out.
Speaker 4 (30:19):
Derek Smith. That's convenient.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
She's having sex with her boyfriend at one moment she
blacks out and suddenly right there in the basement, his
head's in a bucket.
Speaker 4 (30:29):
Funny how that works? She blacked out. Derek.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
Please tell me you haven't used the blackout defense. I
bet you have, haven't you.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
Well, I wouldn't necessarily call it the blackout defense. I
would say that, you know, chemically, there was too much
stress from knowing what just happened, realizing that, you know,
the person she loves is now gone forever, and she
can't take the shock and passes out. You know, there's
a lot of things that can lead up to that
that can put a person into a situation where they
no longer have control of themselves.
Speaker 3 (30:57):
Are the faculties they pass out. It's over.
Speaker 4 (30:59):
Wow, you know what.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
She seems perfectly in control, and I just saw her
pulling a kim Kay and doing awesome selfie. Wow, she
knows how to do that, but yet blacks out, blacks out,
and she says, I need time to think Okay, listen
to more of telor she business.
Speaker 4 (31:23):
As she went on, what it could go up and down?
Speaker 1 (31:32):
Okay from our friends at w b A Y to
Chief Chris Davis joining us, Chief green Bay PD, how
many times have you had a suspect black out at
just the critical moment?
Speaker 5 (31:45):
Surprisingly often? And as you say, usually that's a pretty
good red flag for investigators. This is somebody who probably
did it.
Speaker 4 (31:56):
Chief Davis.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
Also, and I'm certainly not the church lady. People can
have sex, however they want to have sex as long
as it's consensual. But isn't it true, Chief Davis, that
the Green Bay Police interrogated the girlfriend If you want
to still call her that tell us your business. And
she describes how she likes to strangle her boyfriend during
(32:19):
sex with a dog chain, placing the chain around his
neck and then quote walking him like a dog. When
asked if the boyfriend likes it, she says, I have
no idea.
Speaker 4 (32:33):
Did that happen?
Speaker 5 (32:34):
Chief, Yes, that's all true.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
What exactly did she say about how she liked to
strangle her boyfriend with a dog chain, a metal dog chain.
Speaker 5 (32:44):
She made a comment to investigators that she would she
and her boyfriend would use this dog chain to engage
in autoeroticism where they would get him just to the
point of passing out.
Speaker 4 (32:58):
Chief, would you repeat that place?
Speaker 5 (33:00):
She did tell investigators that this was something that the
two of them engaged in together, that she would choke
him with this dog chain until he was almost to
the point of passing out.
Speaker 4 (33:15):
And he liked it.
Speaker 5 (33:16):
Uh, we'll never know, but that she believed he did.
Speaker 13 (33:20):
Apparently again convenient listen in the basement with the house
of themselves, Theorian and Shad Business engage in sexual intercourse
as well as erotic asphyxiation, something the couple has done before.
Speaker 8 (33:31):
In previous encounters, they have used metal chains, and she
Business proceeds to use a metal dog leash to strangle Shad.
Theorian sher Business continues to strangle Theorian until he starts
to cough up blood, then continues to choke him with
her bare hands for three to five more minutes until
Theorian is dead.
Speaker 1 (33:49):
She stated that this was all consensual, that he had
done this before, but I doubt before he started coughing
up blood during the erotic.
Speaker 5 (34:07):
Asphyxiation, right, I doubt that as well.
Speaker 4 (34:11):
You're being extremely tight lipped on this and I think
I know why.
Speaker 11 (34:14):
Listen, Chad Theorian is dead, but Taylorsha Business continues to
perform for the next several hours. In the morning, shab
Business positions the body on the bed and, using knives
she finds in the house, including Cerretti breadknife, decapitates theory
in over a bucket and a storage toat to contain
the blood. Dumping the blood down the basement shower drain,
shab Business removes all the organs from his body and
(34:36):
places them in plastic bags cardboard boxes the toat used
earlier for blood, and places the head in the bucket.
Speaker 4 (34:42):
I mean, don't you just want to book her right
there and say this is done. I can't take it
anymore in here?
Speaker 1 (34:48):
You do, in your heart, you do.
Speaker 5 (34:50):
But you also have a job to do as a
police officer, and you know you have to anticipate an
adversarial process later on in court. And that means that
for as long as it takes, and in this case,
this took quite a while, you have to process that
entire scene and be very thorough because those small details
matter when this case goes to court, and it's especially
(35:13):
important for the family of the victim to get you know,
you never get closure out of something like this, but
to at least try to bring some justice to this situation.
But as you learn pretty early as a police officer
that sometimes you have to just suspend disbelief, remember that
you have a job to do and do it the
(35:35):
right way.
Speaker 1 (35:36):
In an extremely rare scenario world wide, a female tailorshi
business is charged with murder and decapitation and full dismemberment
of the victim, Shad.
Speaker 4 (35:50):
But her violence doesn't end there. Look what happens in court.
Out of the blue, she attacks her lawyer. That's twenty
twenty three. You have to have multiple.
Speaker 1 (36:04):
Sheriffs, three male sheriffs surround her. That's our friends at
ABC seven in Chicago.
Speaker 4 (36:09):
What brought that on?
Speaker 11 (36:11):
Dave mack No, she didn't want to go with certain
things as a defense strategy, and she didn't like the
way he was representing her. So instead of talking in
a normal way, she just attacked. Seems like that's her
normal way of dealing with things. Just get physical in
a hurry.
Speaker 4 (36:26):
Okay, that was in twenty twenty three.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
When you take a look at her posing for that selfie,
it seems hard to reconcile that photo with what we're.
Speaker 4 (36:32):
Seeing in court.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
That was in twenty twenty three with that lawyer. But
it ain't over yet. Okay, she's doing it again. That's
for our friends at Court TV. That is a different lawyer, right.
Speaker 4 (36:47):
Dave Mack.
Speaker 11 (36:48):
She actually because as soon as she attacks the attorney,
they drop away. I mean she's getting you know, attorneys
provided to her, and you know, once she attacks, there's
nothing they can do with her. On top of that,
when the next guy comes in, he asks the judge
to accuse himself from the case because well he saw
the attack.
Speaker 4 (37:07):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (37:07):
And again it's not over yet. Here she's coming into
court again. She's coming into court with a spit maask
on and she is cuffed and she looks angry. Isn't
it true, Dave Matt that she also attacked a nurse
and a jail employee.
Speaker 12 (37:30):
She did.
Speaker 11 (37:30):
Nancy, She had a somehow got a staple in her arm,
and they brought her to the nurses station in the
jail in the prison and as soon as she's sitting there,
you know, in the chair, the woman got the nurse
uses the tweezers to get the staple out and the
minute the tweezers touch the staple, she business attacks. She
throws the nurse as far as she can, grabs a
(37:52):
metal tray and starts swinging it, pounding on everybody a share.
One of the guards there was able to put hands
on her and get her in to the wall and
then eventually get her on the ground, but it was
it took a few minutes. It was not a quick
in and out process. It took time to get her
under control. She just wouldn't stop, Chief Davis.
Speaker 1 (38:10):
If this woman ever gets out of jail, you do
know she's going to kill somebody else, right.
Speaker 5 (38:17):
Yeah, I think it's fair to say she's demonstrated that
she's a pretty serious threat to public safety and Chief Davis.
Speaker 1 (38:24):
You know, when you see her, for instance, taking that selfie,
she looks so tiny and petite, it's very hard to
look at her and realize she is a stone cold killer, Chief,
But you encounter.
Speaker 8 (38:38):
That every day, we do.
Speaker 5 (38:40):
You know, most people that we encounter in our business
who get arrested are fairly normal folks. But every once
in a while you run into somebody who is just
a dangerous human being.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
This case is on appeal, God forbid a new trial
is ordered, the state will again build its case. If
you know or think you know anything about this case,
please dial nine two zero four four eight three two
hundred and tailorship business.
Speaker 4 (39:16):
Where you are right now in the pen.
Speaker 1 (39:20):
It's just a little pit stop on your way to
hell an'sy Grace signing off Goodnes
Host
Nancy Grace
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