July 14, 2025 • 44 mins
Conspiracy theories swarm social media with curiosity claiming Ava Grace Baldwin might have been found and no longer missing because she is making rounds on Tik Tok videos. Some have even questioned is this the same Ava, Sean 'Diddy' Combs blasted out on social media he adopted.
Ava Grace Baldwin disappears from her elementary school when she was just six years old, Ava's father, David Hopper, believes his daughter is with her non-custodial mother, Kathryn Ann Baldwin, his ex-wife, and that she is hiding Ava away from him. Ava would be a teenager now and was last seen in San Antonio, Texas on September 17, 2015. Kathryn Ann Baldwin, who has a felony warrant out for her for interfering with child custody. David seems to think his ex-wife, bio mom of Ava Grace, maybe in hiding with the child to keep David from having a relationship with his daughter.
Ava's mother and father, David Hopper, had joint custody of her. After Hopper requested full custody, Kathryn disappears with Ava Grace. Kathryn's vehicle, a silver 2014 Ford Escape with the Illinois license plate number Q29-2793, was found abandoned in a parking lot on Whitby Road in San Antonio in April 2016, just seven months after the pair disappeared without a trace.
Kathryn has a history of alcohol and prescription drug abuse, suffers from mental illness and is supposed to take medication, but there's been no record of her refilling her prescriptions since 2015. She and Ava may move frequently and may be staying in women's shelters and/or homeless shelters. Kathryn may tell people she is being stalked.
Kathryn's family states they haven't seen or heard from Kathryn or Ava since 2015 and they too believe both are dead, but Hopper thinks they are alive and in hiding, possibly being helped by friends or family. Kathryn has family in Texas, Oklahoma, California, Florida and Illinois, and friends in several parts of the country as well.
Ava's disappearance remains unsolved. She was involved in cheerleading, soccer, gymnastics, and tumbling prior to her disappearance.
Description and more information on Ava Grace Baldwin below.
- Missing Since09/17/2015
- Missing FromSan Antonio, Texas
- ClassificationFamily Abduction
- SexFemale
- RaceWhite
- Date of Birth04/16/2009 (16)
- Age5 years old
- Height and Weight4'0, 60 pounds
- Associated Vehicle(s)Silver 2014 Ford Escape with the Illinois license plate number Q29-2793 (accounted for)
- Distinguishing Characteristics: Caucasian female. Blonde hair, hazel eyes. Ava may have a tooth missing in the top right side of her mouth.
Joining Nancy Grace today,
- David Hopper - Father of Ava Grace Tina Hopper - Aunty of Ava Grace
- Darryl Cohen - Former Assistant District Attorney (Fulton County, Georgia) Former Assistant State Attorney (Florida), Defense Attorney, Cohen, Cooper, Estep, & Allen, LLC, CCEAlaw.com, Facebook: "Darryl B Cohen", Twitter: @DarrylBCohen
- Ralph Garcia - Senior Sargent with the Bexar County District Attorney's Office in Texas, has been working this case since 2016, 30 years in Law Enforcement
- Dr. Chloe Carmichael - Clinical Psychologist, Author: ‘Nervous Energy: Harness The Power of Your Anxiety”, Twitter: @DrChloe, drchloe.com
- Dave Mack-Investigative Reporter for CrimeOnline
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, a dad's desperate search and
at this hour is a tic talk girl actually missing
Ava Grace, aged six. Good evening, I'm Nancy Grace. This
is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being
with us.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Search for a six year old Ava Grace Baldwin and
her mother, Katherine Baldwin is cold from the very beginning
and gets even colder when Catherine Baldwin's fourd escape is
found abandoned in a parking lot on Whippy Road in
San Antonio. David Hopper is awarded soul custody and a
felony warrant issued for the arrest of the alleged abductor.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
While Ava Grace's father, David Hopper believes his daughter is alive,
family do not concur they haven't seen or heard from
Ava since twenty fifteen and believe they're dead. Hopper believes
they're alive in hiding.
Speaker 4 (00:51):
She has family in Texas, Oklahoma, California, Florida, and Illinois,
so that's kind of what we're thinking. She might be
hiding out or around that area, and we believe that
there are people here in the San Antonio area that
helped her get out of the state, so there's somebody
there that knows where she's at.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
Is this beautiful little girl, Ava Grace still alive? Her
father insists, yes, she is. Is she being kept in hiding?
And if so, why this? As conspiracy theories emerge, identifying
the little girl as a TikTok star joining me in
All Star panel. But first to a very special guest
(01:29):
joining us tonight. It's Avia Grace's father, David Hopper, and
with him Tina Hopper Fulbright, Avia Grace's auntie.
Speaker 5 (01:40):
To both of you, thank you for being with us.
You know, David.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Hopper, you were blessed with a little girl, a beautiful
little girl, and for six years she was in your life.
I can't imagine taking one step without.
Speaker 5 (01:58):
My daughter and my son in my life.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
And I've got to hear, how have you managed to
keep going without Ava Grace.
Speaker 6 (02:08):
It's it's a battle every day.
Speaker 7 (02:11):
I have a good support team with my family's behind
me kind of keep it going.
Speaker 6 (02:15):
My faith in God and believing his promises and just
there's times you.
Speaker 7 (02:21):
Have to remove yourself from the case itself and just
have hope.
Speaker 6 (02:27):
So that's what I do.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Why are you convinced, mister Hopper that Ava Grace is
still alive.
Speaker 7 (02:33):
Because of Katie's background, she was her and her two
brothers were hit out from her family also by her dad,
and they were hit out for sixteen years. So it's
a learned behavior and I just kind of feel in
my heart that that's what's going on here. I think
that not only that, but with her family not helping
searching for them and not being involved in the case,
(02:56):
it just kind of just something I feel in my heart.
Speaker 6 (03:01):
Someone knows where she's at and she's alive.
Speaker 7 (03:02):
If her dad could do it and get away with
it for sixteen years, Like I said, it's a learned behavior,
and I think that's what's happening now.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Joining me in All Star Panel, but straight out to
veteran trial lawyer Darryl Cohen. Former felony prosecutor in Inner
City Atlanta, Fulton County, now defense attorney and civil attorney.
You can find them on Facebook. Darryl be co and
Darryl thank you for being with us. Did you hear
what mister Hopper David just said. He goes in my heart,
(03:31):
I know she's still alive now, Darryl, you and I
practiced in Inner City Fulton County for many, many years,
and they're certainly not a lack of business.
Speaker 5 (03:43):
I can't even count the number of trials.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
I've tried to make a list, but there are too
many to really count, much less the number of cases
we investigated with a.
Speaker 5 (03:53):
Staggering case load.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
Darryl, when a witness or victim's family says, I feel
in my heart, A lot of people discount that I
do not. I do not discount it because so many
times has been proven true. So when he says, and
many people may say it's wishful thinking she's not alive,
But when he says, he's carrying on the search because
(04:16):
he knows one hundred percent in his heart, Ava Grace
is alive and in hiding.
Speaker 5 (04:23):
I believe in Darryl.
Speaker 8 (04:24):
Nancy, there's more to it than just being in his heart.
He's utilizing logic. If one person was able to hide
for one six sixteen years, then what he is saying,
I believe, based upon what has happened before, that she
is alive and in hiding unbeknownst to her because mom
(04:46):
is keeping her hidden, and that in my view.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
Is look at the screen, Can I see that video
one more time? Of Ava Grace in the car, Darryl Cohen,
how many videos have I taken of the chill in
the car, the twins singing and talking and saying all
kind of crazy things. I mean, look at her, she
doesn't even have all of her grown up, her adult
(05:11):
teeth yet.
Speaker 5 (05:12):
I mean, this guts apparent.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
I mean a visceral cut to see these videos. And
we're getting these videos from the Hopper family. I mean, David,
how many times have you looked at these and looked
at these and looked at these over and over and
over a little Eva Grace.
Speaker 7 (05:34):
Too many, too many times? Say you've got to learn
to distance yourself from it at times.
Speaker 5 (05:41):
You know what, David, My husband once had a closet.
He once had a closet full of.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
Clothes, clothes and shoes and all this stuff. No more,
you know what that closet now is the whole thing. Albums,
hand made albums of the twins by me. And yes,
I go back and look at them all the time, right,
I look at them all the time.
Speaker 5 (06:07):
I can't. I can't help it.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
Now I have the phone, of course, so I can
scroll through and look at them. When you look at
all of these videos and pictures of your little girl.
Speaker 5 (06:17):
What goes through your mind?
Speaker 7 (06:19):
David pain Penis, Uh, and I said, hope, there's days
I have good days.
Speaker 6 (06:28):
There's days.
Speaker 7 (06:29):
Uh, you know it's wat I remember too, like right
now that's kind of sad on the videos. Yeah, I'm
missed out on her entire life. And Uh, that's all
I've ever wonder was a family and uh, a child.
And when you have it and it's rocked from you,
(06:49):
it just leaves an aptiness in your heart that nothing
can feel that voiant. So but at the same time,
it makes me smile because I see how beautiful she is.
Speaker 6 (07:00):
I do have that hope that I'll be reunited with
her again.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
So that day when a car, a Ford Escape is
found abandoned in a parking lot on Whitby Road in
San Antonio, that car wasn't left there by chance. That
car was left in that location for a reason. I
(07:25):
want to think through this, David Hopper, Why do you
believe Baldwin's car was left in that location to be found?
Speaker 6 (07:36):
Really? I don't know on that. There's all sorts of
speculations on that.
Speaker 7 (07:41):
I just I think because she had help, because she
used to do she'd go to the hookah bars and
stuff like that, and as we invested Denarlu investigation, we
found out that there was one here by there, So
I kind of feel like there were some people in
the San Antonio area that that helped her came out
of if you also have found out that there's not
(08:01):
a lot of cameras around there, so it was easy
to get in and out. So to me, I just
doue that she had help getting out of town. That's
where they pick up at.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
Okay, you're not making me feel any better, David by
saying that mom visited the hookah bars all the time.
The abandoned car the ford escaped left clearly so it
would be found to send what message tonight? Where is
Ava Grace? And what does TikTok have to do with this?
If anything? After finding the vehicle abandoned, it gets worse.
Speaker 5 (08:37):
Listen.
Speaker 9 (08:38):
Catherine Baldwin has a history of alcohol and prescription drug abuse,
as well as mental illness, for which she takes medication.
Since she and Ava went missing, a prescription has not
been filled in her name. Law enforcement says they believe
Baldwin is moving frequently and it is possible she is
visiting homeless and women's shelters, claiming she is a victim
of stalking the case of Ava Baldwin as being investigated
(09:00):
as a non custodial parent abduction.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
Straight out to doctor Chloe Carmichael, renowned clinical psychologist, author
of Nervous Energy, Harness The Power of Your Anxiety, and
you can find her on Twitter at doctor Chloe.
Speaker 5 (09:13):
Doctor Chloe, thank you for being with us.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
I've seen this before, that an adult would rather have
the child with them, living in shelters, living in the rough,
going from place to place, rather than letting the parent,
the responsible parent, the loving parent, have the child. Can't
they see what hell they're dragging the child through.
Speaker 5 (09:38):
Living that way?
Speaker 1 (09:39):
I mean, going from woman's shelter to woman's shelter, claiming
she's been stalked and she needs to be in a
shelter and Dragammy. You've been in a woman's shelter, right,
I mean that's no place to raise a child.
Speaker 10 (09:53):
Nancy, of course you're right about that. One thing that
stood out to me though, is the mention of substance
abuse as she is and potentially being off of her medication.
I don't know what the medication was for, but for example,
if it were about some kind of a psychotic disorder
like schizophrenia, or even the substance abuse itself can sometimes
(10:14):
produce paranoia.
Speaker 5 (10:16):
The reason I mentioned.
Speaker 10 (10:17):
That is because, as you said, if she's going from
place to place with fears of stalking, it may be
that she's seriously deluded. She may believe that she's you know,
rescuing her child from you know, some delusional dragnet, that
she in her mind, you know, believes that she's keeping
(10:37):
her safe. It does surprise me, though, that she's been
able to do this, you know, successfully for nearly a decade.
I mean, I just I'm a little surprised that through
you know, investigators, that we haven't been able to locate
her or the child.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
Wait, along with Ava Grace's father, believe Ava Grace is
still alone for many, many different reasons, and that she's
being kept in hiding. But how does the dad put
his head on the pillow every night, wondering is she dead?
Speaker 5 (11:12):
Is she alive? Where is she? What has become of her?
Speaker 1 (11:17):
You are seeing pictures and video of Ava Grace with
her father. He had her for six wonderful years before
she was snatched away from him and it didn't start
in a good place.
Speaker 9 (11:33):
David Hopper meets Catherine Baldwin in a recovery program called
Celebrate Recovery, a twelve step program helping people recover from alcohol, drugs,
and other issues. Even though newcomers are discouraged from making
big life decisions in their first year of sobriety, David
Hopper and Catherine Baldwin have a whirlwind courtship followed by
a small marriage. Shortly after meeting.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
Tonight, a missing little girl's dad is haunting his ex
wife leaves disappear with his daughter after a thirty four
day marriage. Okay, straight back out to David Hawper, this
is Avid Grace's father.
Speaker 5 (12:11):
You met in rehab. Why were you in rehab twenty
years ago?
Speaker 6 (12:17):
I was with the perfect person in the world.
Speaker 7 (12:19):
I had a drug addiction to Celebrate recovery, I guess
I beat it. So I became a ministry leader there
for the chapter in our hometown. I was a ministry
leader for four years, and during that time, that's when
I met Katie.
Speaker 6 (12:36):
She was at the y Oklahoma City area. We met
up there at one of their programs.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
What was it about you that attracted you and moved
you to a world win wedding. You married her right
after rehab.
Speaker 6 (12:50):
Why we have known each other for like about four
or five months.
Speaker 7 (12:54):
She has the ability to hit on a great facade.
She manipulates, tells you what you want to hear, and
a lot of things that she told me I found
out later on the lies. So it's about putting on
to speak. I like said, it's a facade. I said,
is just she's not who she says she is, And
(13:15):
that's what we found out later on. That's why last year, David.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
I don't want you to feel like you are the
gullible one joining me.
Speaker 5 (13:25):
You've met him already.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
Darryl Cohen, veteran trial lawyer Daryl Cohen. I don't know
if you ever had the privilege of practicing in front
of Judge Luther Alverson.
Speaker 5 (13:35):
I was a signist's courtroom for.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
Years, and he yeah, I loved best judge in the courthouse,
by the way, and the oldest judge, I might add,
And he wanted to prove to everybody he was fit
as a fiddle to stay on the bench. So we
would have to be on trial every other week and
keep the lowest jail count of any other judge in
the courthouse.
Speaker 5 (13:53):
Right, So that's where I got all my trial experience.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
But Darryl he had if you remember, the process that
other judge did not have, where I would sit in
a conference room and each defendant from the jail would
come in and sit on the other side of the
table with their lawyer, and we would try to do
a plea deal if possible. Okay, So Darryl, I don't
know if you ever went through that with Alverson. But
(14:18):
I would sit there and listen to the defendants and
I'm thinking about what David Hopper said, and they would
be the worst of the worst, charged with childless station, murder, rape,
you name it. And they would sit down and they
would go, well, hello, miss Grace, and there we go.
I call it the Eddie Haskell effect. Remember off, leave
(14:41):
it to beaver, missus cleaver, lovely in those pearls, that
whole thing. And if you listen to them long enough,
you get totally sucked into their story.
Speaker 5 (14:50):
They're very believable.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
What I'm saying is violent felons can be very charming.
And here's this beautiful, full woman, a damsel in distress
and rehab, and she totally snows David Happer, he falls
for her, and bam they're married. People can be very
charming when in reality they're a snake in human skin.
Speaker 8 (15:16):
Nancy over a short term, just a snippet in time.
People can do that. They can be salespeople, they can
be actors. They do what they feel like they can
do and they get away with it. By the way,
Judge Alperson used to have a motto of twa and
I said, your honor, What does that mean? He says,
Darryl travel wild, ambulatory, nothing to do with this case,
(15:39):
but he was a great human being and a great judge.
People have an ability to be snakes when they are
really bad serpents. They have the ability to be a
harmless snake, garden snake, when in fact they're a copperhead
or a coral snake. That is not unusual.
Speaker 5 (16:00):
And that's exactly what this woman is.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
How this beautiful little girl came out of her I
do not know just after thirty four days of wedded bliss.
I can only imagine those thirty four days.
Speaker 3 (16:17):
This goes down thirty four days after their small wedding,
David Baldwin filed for divorce. During the separation, process, Hopper
finds out his soon to be ex wife is pregnant.
David Hopper vows to be the kind of father his
child will be proud of, but Baldwin tells him he
isn't the father. Shortly after Baldwin gives birth to a
beautiful baby girl, a court ordered DNA test proves David
(16:39):
Hopper is the father of Ava Grace. The couple is
no longer married, but they eventually begin making plans to
raise Ava together.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
David Hopper and Catherine Baldwin's whirlwind romance ends after just
thirty four days of marriage, during which Catherine reveals she
is pregnant with their daughter, Ava Grace.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
Talk about a wind courtship that was a whirl wind
marriage divorce after just thirty four days.
Speaker 5 (17:06):
David, what went wrong? Dare?
Speaker 11 (17:07):
I ask?
Speaker 7 (17:09):
At that time, when when I was a ministry leader
Silver in Recovery, I was also through the program here
in Oklahoma called Drug Court. What I found out is
when I went into the office one day, the administrator
asked me if things was okay, and I said yes.
Why do you ask me, she says, because your wife
has been calling Anne, tellam that you're using well. I
was testing every day, so that wasn't the case. So
(17:29):
when I confronted her about it, she kind of went off.
And I don't want to have say a middle She
had a middle breakdown, you might say, because she got
caught at it. But if I'd have failed drug court,
I was looking at fourteen years in prison. So I
told her, you know what, this is a good work.
Speaker 5 (17:46):
Oh my stars, she was setting you up to go
to prison.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
Guys joining me now in addition to David Hopper and
Avid Grace is Auntie Tina Hopper Fulbright, Darryl Cohen, and
doctor Chloe. Ralph Garcia is joining us senior sergeant with
the Bear County District Attorney's Office there in Texas this jurisdiction,
and he has been working on this case since Avia
(18:12):
Grace went missing.
Speaker 5 (18:15):
What can you tell me about this bio? Mom?
Speaker 12 (18:19):
Well, Nancy, this you know, I didn't know the Hoppers
at all before they showed up here with this story
about the Ava missing. Once uh, once I determined that
you know, Ava and Catherine were missing, I started an
investigation trying to trying to locate Catherine and Ava. I
(18:43):
did a lot of the groundwork here here in San Antonio.
Uh kind of identified places as she she uh she
lived nearby, and people that she was associating with. And
you know, after a while, I guess after months, I decided,
I came to a conclusion she wasn't in San Antonio.
(19:04):
But there were a lot of stories, a lot of
stories about Catherine uh uh. Some of them, some of
them were were not so nice and some of them
some of them some people said that she was a
great mom.
Speaker 11 (19:16):
But I believe that she had the ability to in
public be a great mom, uh, be that person as
you can see by the pictures.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
I really appreciate you being here today, but you can't
just drop a bomb on Nancy Grace and she doesn't
follow up.
Speaker 5 (19:31):
For instance, you said there's a lot of stories matter,
some good, some bad. What what story be specific?
Speaker 12 (19:37):
Well, you know when I started, when I started my investigations,
I spoke to her family.
Speaker 11 (19:43):
They gave me the same stories that David gave me
about about.
Speaker 6 (19:47):
How she was.
Speaker 11 (19:48):
She would use people, and she would go out with
certain men and in hopes that she can get something
out of a relationship. I also spoke to some of
the people that were in the uh the home that
was that she was at in.
Speaker 5 (20:01):
What kind of home was it? Sergeant? What kind of
you said? The home? What kind of home was it?
Speaker 13 (20:07):
So she disappeared from It was a home for a
battered woman that actually sat on a couple of akers
and had several different quarters living quarters on there. It
was a pretty pretty nice place. I believe you hold on.
Speaker 5 (20:25):
Just a moment.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
I want to follow up with a few things you said.
You're giving me so much information, Sergeant Garcia, thoughts are
pinging like a old pinball machine.
Speaker 5 (20:41):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace joining me now, Crime.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
Stories investigative reporter Dave mac Dave.
Speaker 5 (20:54):
Thank you so much for being with us.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
I'm trying to just absorb all the knowledge I'm getting
right now in our search for little Ava Grace.
Speaker 5 (21:02):
I heard a lot of things.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
Heard that the mom is a user and uses people.
Speaker 5 (21:08):
That tells me a lot. But I'm going to go
to the shrink on that.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
But to you, now, I see why you're trying to
convince me, Dave Mack, that the mom may be going
from shelter to shelter to shelter. And I've seen a
lot of shelters, only a handful of them were fit
to have a child in Okay. Now, I see what
you're saying, because at the time this mother, dare I
(21:32):
call her that she doesn't deserve It was in this
battered women's center shelter. She wasn't battered, she was on
the run. She left, and it wasn't untill like twenty
days later that anybody even knew she was gone, right,
And the dad kept waiting to hear from them, hear
from them, hear from them when he finds out they're gone,
much like call it mom.
Speaker 5 (21:52):
Laurie Valo. Now, I see what you're saying.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
So what's her pattern, Dave mac She would go from
shelter to shelter and convinced them she was being chased
or beaten or stalked. Yep.
Speaker 3 (22:03):
She had a pretty common story, Nancy, that she was
the victim, she needed help and expected them to put
her up. I mean she went from shelters to religious missions,
you know, any group that would take her in, beat her,
give her a place to crash. That was pretty much it.
And she always had that idea that you know, she's
being followed, she is being chased. You know, she's got
to protect her daughter. And she was able to work
(22:27):
that into a lifestyle for a while, and you know what, Nancy,
very possible she's still doing it, and that Ava Grace
doesn't even know we're looking for her.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Gosh, Tina Hopper Foolbright joining us. Ava Grace is on tape. Tina,
I've got the same feeling that David has that she
is alive. And I guess you, standing by watching everything unfold,
could see this coming a mile away.
Speaker 5 (22:55):
Yes, yeah, what happened.
Speaker 14 (22:59):
He married her, they divorced, She went missing when she
was seven months pregnant. We hunted her down, we found
her on my space. She ran Child Protected Services, got
involved in Texas, She married an eighty year old man, divorced,
(23:23):
He divorced her, She ran with Ava again, and for
four years we chased her through the courts and then
CPS founder. They told my brother, if you come to Texas, you.
Speaker 5 (23:38):
Can have her.
Speaker 14 (23:39):
So they went to Texas to pick up Ava, and
the courts wouldn't let him have them. They built temporary
custody and from there she ran.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
You know what, Tina, you just succinctly gave me a
perfect picture of what's going on here. And if anybody
thinks that she or Ava Grace are dead. They are
dead wrong, because you know what Miss Tina when you
don't know a horse.
Speaker 5 (24:04):
Look at her track record. She's been doing.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
This as long as you guys have known her, starting
at seven months pregnant. Yeah, starting at seven months pregnant
or before that. She took off after thirty four days
of marriage, she took off.
Speaker 5 (24:20):
That's the first.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Time that we know of, but I suspect this is
a long standing pattern. Then at seven months pregnant, she
takes off with the baby.
Speaker 5 (24:28):
Child Protective Services gets involved.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
Then she marries an eighty year old man, and I
guess at that time she was in her early thirties,
early thirties, Okay, forget that fifty year age difference.
Speaker 5 (24:41):
Then he divorces her. I can only imagine why.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
Then you think you got her back, You're gonna get custody,
and bam she runs. Okay, but at the get go
there was an agreement on custody.
Speaker 5 (24:57):
Listen.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
After coming to an agreement on co parenting their little girl,
it is shocked when involved and loads up little Eva.
Grayson moves to San Antonio, Texas, seven hours away from
David's home in Oklahoma. Hopper is not happy about the
decision and hires an attorney to try to work out
custody arrangement. The custody battle includes more than just personal
relationships between two people, but custodial laws between two states,
(25:18):
Oklahoma and Texas two.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
Daryl Cohen, veteran trial lawyer, both criminal and civil. See
that's a problem, Darryl Cohen. We've had so many cases.
Speaker 5 (25:27):
Where children are taken across.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
State lines and then the two states, through no fault
of their own, are not communicating.
Speaker 5 (25:34):
I saw it in Harmony Montgomery. I saw it in
Adrian Jones.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
I saw it in the Turpin Family House of Horrors,
where a family moves and moves and moves, and CPS
is chasing them and lose their trail.
Speaker 5 (25:47):
And that's what's happening here.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
So Dad is hell bent that he will have his
daughter in his life. They work out a custody agreement,
and mom has two stays warring Oklahoma and Texas, and
the girl, the baby girl gets lost in the sauce
between the two states.
Speaker 5 (26:07):
Darryl Nancy.
Speaker 8 (26:08):
This is typical of someone who believes every word that
they say, regardless of whether it has any semblance of
truth or veracity. But what we do have. Every state
has by a different name interference with custody. That's a
criminal charge that can be prosecuted. Every state has a
different name for that statute, but it exists and they
(26:30):
have to use that as best they can. This woman
is great at what she's doing. She is probably bipolar.
She is someone who can tell the biggest lie with
the most truthful face and voice and eye contact.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
I guarantee she's under an assumed name, and Ava Grace
doesn't even know we're looking for her, doesn't even know
she has a father out there. I guarantee, because she
told the little girl that before. And we know that
phem speaking of an unfit mother to Dave Mac, Crime
(27:10):
Stories investigative reporter, did you know that the mother?
Speaker 5 (27:16):
It's like eating a dirt sandwich.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
I want to choke every time I call this woman
a mother was put herself on video performing a sex
act with Ava Grace in the background.
Speaker 5 (27:30):
Did you know that I did.
Speaker 3 (27:32):
That's actually when CPS got involved, Nancy, because she did
post this solo sexual act online for all the world
to see.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
And then Dave Mac, so this wasn't like a video
disgusting video and hey, you in a video yourself having
sex with somebody else or yourself. Fine, I would just
be mad if you didn't. But that's not what happened here.
This is a sex act with the baby there in
(28:03):
the background, and she posted it on a public plat form.
Speaker 5 (28:09):
This isn't like.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
Sending picks or sexy picks to your lover or your spouse.
She put the video off herself in a sex act
with the child in the video and posted it online.
How many pervs do you think watch that? About a
(28:32):
million times? That never occurred to me, Nancie. All I
could think of is my own children and business.
Speaker 5 (28:38):
Do you think we're in this is a walk at
the park or not? I was really Kroger.
Speaker 3 (28:45):
I was just really thinking of this so called mother,
you know, with her two year old child at the
time on the same bed while she's doing a solo
sex act or video online. I thought about how horrible
that was. I didn't even get to the perv aspect
of the whole thing.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
Ava's dad receives a strange call one day after Ava's
school reports the six year old hasn't been to class
in well over twenty one days.
Speaker 1 (29:11):
Can you imagine can you imagine getting a call from
a school and they say.
Speaker 5 (29:16):
Where's your little girl? Where's your six year old girl?
Speaker 1 (29:18):
She's not only absent today, she hasn't been here for
twenty one days.
Speaker 5 (29:22):
Listen.
Speaker 9 (29:23):
Ava Grace Baldwin is a very active little girl. She
enjoys cheerleading, gymnastics, soccer, and tumbling. That is why it
is such a surprise when the principal of the private
school Ava Grace attends in San Antonio calls her father,
David Hopper, at his home in Oklahoma September seventeenth, asking
if he can explain why Ava Grace has missed the
last twenty one days of school. Hopper has no idea
(29:45):
and calls the San Antonio Police to report six year
old Ava Grace Baldwin missing. Police go to the address
listed for Ava Grace at the school and immediately.
Speaker 5 (29:54):
Know they have a really big problem.
Speaker 9 (29:56):
The address Katherine Baldwin put down for a home address
for Ava is a vacant.
Speaker 3 (30:00):
Lot, police believed. When Catherine realized Hopper was going to
give custody, Baldwin panicked and ran off with the child.
Speaker 5 (30:07):
Oh my stars.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Police immediately began investigating where is Avia Grace and they
go to the LKA last known address and it is
a vacant lot.
Speaker 5 (30:22):
Tina Hopper Fulbright.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
This is Avia Grace is auntie joining me along with
her dad, David. Tina, when you learned the address was
a vacant lot, your stomach had to drop to your ankles. Yeah,
can you I want to circle back to where we
were before I go off on the vacant lot. Did
(30:46):
you have any idea the bio mom was performing sex
acts on camera with Ava Grace in the background.
Speaker 5 (30:55):
How did you find out about that?
Speaker 14 (30:57):
Mister Moore, which was the eighty year old man she
made married his family. He divorced her through the courts
down in Bernie, Texas. And David was down there along
with my mother and they listened to the testimony and
that was brought up in court.
Speaker 1 (31:14):
So you had no idea this was going on until
you sat in on the eighty year old's divorce. What else,
if anything, did you learn from that testimony?
Speaker 6 (31:27):
I learned a lot.
Speaker 5 (31:29):
I learned a lot. But everything we learned and I
want to hear it.
Speaker 14 (31:31):
Tell me, well missed thirty seven days of nine weeks
of her kindergarten school and when they went out to
check welfare check on her. She had painted PoCA dots
all over and said that she had chicken pop. The
neighbor lady informed us that she give a vassalt math
(31:53):
in pure salt rock salt. I learned that when she
took off the Florida, she tried to give ava to
the people that she was staying with. She was staying
in a shelter. Some people had ava at three years old,
and she was going to leave ava in the state
(32:14):
of Florida while she come back to fight David over custody.
That didn't mark.
Speaker 6 (32:21):
I learned a lot. I learned a lot.
Speaker 14 (32:24):
A lot take hours to tell you what I learned.
Speaker 6 (32:29):
The sad deal.
Speaker 1 (32:30):
I know that the bio mom in this case has
an adult daughter who is still living. Catherine Baldwin has
an adult daughter that, according to documents, was adopted out.
Speaker 5 (32:43):
But that's not what you say happens. What happened to
her adult daughter.
Speaker 14 (32:48):
Her adult daughter lives in California, and I'm saying she
sold her because that's the story that Katie told us.
That the people paid her money. They were her god parents,
and they paid her money throughout her whole time. But
at one time she took that child from them people
and took her down to Florida and kept her down
(33:09):
there for three or four months. It was an open adoption,
and she took her down there for three or four
months and took her from the people from California. So
she took that child too, but then she returned that child.
Speaker 3 (33:23):
Catherine Baldwin has ties to several states, including Florida, and
Ava Grace's father, David Hopper, says there is a case
in Florida where Catherine Baldwin approaches a couple about taking
custody of Ava and raising her. The couple is shocked
by the offer and reach out to local law enforcement,
but police are unable to locate Baldwin or Ava Grace.
Speaker 5 (33:49):
Crime stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 3 (33:55):
Is it possible Catherine and Ava Grace are hiding in
plain sight? Armchair detectives claiming Catherine and Nava Baldwin are
on TikTok using the profile of Be Pop and Bebe.
The TikTok videos rack up a lot of comments from
viewers who claim to see things in the videos that
lead them to believe Bibe is being trafficked due to
a lock seen in the bedroom they're using for filming
(34:17):
The story is even featured in a Rolling Stone magazine article, and.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
The Rolling Stone Magazine article created a big stir in
a search for Ava Grace. What does TikTok have to
do with this. Let's look at the TikTok video we're
talking about. This is from our friends at beebop and
bbe Okay.
Speaker 5 (34:36):
Look, David, when you.
Speaker 1 (34:38):
First were told that Ava Grace had emerged on TikTok,
what did you think?
Speaker 6 (34:44):
I had mixed reactions about it. At the time.
Speaker 7 (34:47):
I was glad that our cases getting more views and
that was coming to you know, by the public.
Speaker 6 (34:55):
That was a good thing for it.
Speaker 7 (34:56):
But after seeing the videos I recognized the media that
it wasn't her. There's just certain facial features and stuff
like that that you see that it was at Ada
and it was at Katie.
Speaker 6 (35:07):
But the recognition brought towards Ava's case. That was a
good thing.
Speaker 7 (35:11):
Because our phones blew up, I mean, emails, people calling us, messages.
Speaker 6 (35:16):
It was it was.
Speaker 7 (35:17):
It turned out to be a blessing because afterwards a
lot of national syndication news places got a hold of
the case. Let's even started contacting us. So in a way,
it was a good thing. But but it was it
wasn't her.
Speaker 5 (35:31):
What about it, Tina hopperful Bright? Did you know immediately
it's not her?
Speaker 6 (35:36):
I did?
Speaker 15 (35:37):
I did, And she's not a little real competity either that.
We have been bombarded daily, hundreds of thousands telling us
that we don't care. It needs to be investigated.
Speaker 14 (35:50):
What type of people are we that we're not going
to go after these videos? They have been investigated. US
marshals have investigated it. Ralph Garci investigated, They've been highly investigated.
Speaker 5 (36:02):
You know what.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
You're absolutely right, Tina, Ralph Garcia, you've investigated it fully.
Speaker 5 (36:08):
What did you do to investigate it and what did
you learn?
Speaker 12 (36:11):
Well, Nancy, what I did was I went ahead and
this research on IP addresses and stuff like that, found
out what city was in contacted.
Speaker 11 (36:21):
The local police ended up getting an ID and.
Speaker 12 (36:28):
Confirming the birth certificate in driver's license of the mother
who had lived in that city of her whole life.
Speaker 11 (36:36):
There are similarities in the way they look, but it's
just was not her.
Speaker 3 (36:39):
A Facebook page titled Ava Grace Baldwin Hopper Letters to
You has been established where anyone can write letters directly
to Ava Grace and share missing child posters that include
an age progression photo of what Ava Grace might look
like today. Family, friends and interested individuals post good wishes
and thoughts and are encouraged to share the page and information.
Speaker 1 (37:01):
Back to renowned clinical psychologist doctor Chloe Carmichael.
Speaker 5 (37:06):
Doctor Chloe, when I look.
Speaker 1 (37:08):
At the mom and you know how I hate to
call her that she doesn't deserve that title background I would,
and you're the shrink. But if I were a betting person,
I'm putting money on it. This woman is not dead
and this daughter, Avid Grace is not dead.
Speaker 5 (37:25):
She's out there.
Speaker 10 (37:26):
Yeah, I agree with you on that, Nancy. Obviously you
know we don't know, but I'm so glad that you're
doing this segment because I agree with you that if
she is alive, it's very doubtful that the mother, as
you say, is hard to call her that is letting
better know about that because there's such an incredibly narcissistic
quality to this, you know, so called mother. So going back,
(37:49):
it's you know, kind of graphic. But going back to
the information that the mother posted a video of herself
pleasuring herself with her daughter in the background, there's something
in incredibly narcissistic about that.
Speaker 14 (38:01):
Right.
Speaker 10 (38:02):
First of all, doing that and then posting it for
the public. There's kind of an incredible desire for attention there.
And then either she was aware her daughter was in
the background and thought it would generate more interest, which
is obviously narcissistic to use her daughter as a prop
that way, or if she was genuinely unaware, if she
(38:23):
would be that self absorbed that even in setting up
a camera of herself to do this, that she would
be so self absorbed that she wouldn't even think of
her own daughter appearing there in the frame. Either way,
to me, it points to just an incredible level of narcissism.
The mother is I must say, she looks like an
attractive woman. As somebody else mentioned, she seems like she
(38:46):
knows how to say the right things and you know,
kind of manipulate people on a certain level. And the
fact that she, you know, married that eighty year old
man with a fifty year age gap willly to run
out shortly afterwards. I leave somebody you know said that
she attempted to sell you know, a different child.
Speaker 5 (39:05):
There's just an.
Speaker 10 (39:05):
Incredible objectification of people, you know again, where it's like
she would be using her daughter as a prop you know,
maybe to get priority entry into these places, or you know,
God forbid whatever. You know she's guiding her daughter into
at this point. So I join everybody here with hopes
and prayers that maybe this segment will even raise just
(39:27):
that last bit of awareness that's needed. Ava Grace. If
you're out there, please there's how.
Speaker 1 (39:32):
You know to David Hopper or Auntee Hopper Fulbright, the
father and aunt of Ava Grace. If you don't know
what's going to happen, you look at what has already happened.
She's already sold one daughter, she's already tried to sell
Ava Grace, and we know that. So it's very possible
(39:52):
that right now a family has Ava Grace and they
think they're protecting her from the mother.
Speaker 5 (40:00):
They don't even know you exist.
Speaker 6 (40:02):
David, Yeah, that's that's true.
Speaker 7 (40:04):
And I said with the first time I got to
see Ava, I was in San Antonio after a court
after a court meeting. But uh, she was just surprised
because she kept savings the pictures you see us in
the pool.
Speaker 6 (40:15):
She is going, you're my daddy, You're my daddy. And
she didn't even.
Speaker 5 (40:20):
Know she had a dad.
Speaker 6 (40:22):
No, she did that's what her mother told her.
Speaker 7 (40:24):
So yeah, there's chances of we have a letter from
the people in Florida that were they were they Katie
tried to give her give them custody of Aba and
they apologize it.
Speaker 6 (40:33):
If we had known, we would have taken her a.
Speaker 7 (40:35):
Gun, do you So, Yeah, there's a chance today that she,
you know, Katie might not even have her anymore. And
it's not that maybe she's protecting her from the mother,
which is that's possible, but there's no ton of what
she has told other people about me and my family.
Uh so we me Katie. She's a manipulator, she's she's
(40:57):
a compulsive liar. She has eleven different alias as we've doubt.
Speaker 6 (41:01):
So there's there's.
Speaker 7 (41:02):
Things that I don't know. There's a chance she might
not be with the mother right now. And you asked me,
how do we get by? How do I get by? Daiies?
Speaker 6 (41:12):
Sometimes that's a thought that comes in my mind. Hopefully
she's with somebody that keep her safe.
Speaker 5 (41:18):
Uh.
Speaker 7 (41:18):
We know that Katie throughout her life has always had
to have a caretaker.
Speaker 6 (41:21):
Basically.
Speaker 7 (41:22):
In fact, the older man, mister Morgan that she married,
she when I first heard of him, she told me
it was her grandpa.
Speaker 14 (41:28):
Uh.
Speaker 7 (41:29):
I mean, there's just all these different stories and stuff,
but yeah, he was supposed to apparently been married to
her grandma at one time, and that's that's how I
knew about him. But uh, it's just it's all manipulation.
Speaker 5 (41:42):
I got a question for you, Tana.
Speaker 1 (41:46):
I mean, when you look at her track record, she
has probably sold Aba Grace and Ama Grace, I pray
to God is being raised by a family that wanted her,
and they have no idea that there there's a dad
out there desperately trying to connect with his bio daughter
that he loves. They probably think they're protecting her front
(42:09):
baby from the mother, and so they are, you know,
death con four totally under the radar.
Speaker 14 (42:19):
It's either that or they're afraid of the mother they're
afraid of. Because you cross Katie, you pay consequences for it.
I have found this out too, the people that she
wanted to give Aba to in Florida. On her way
back to Texas, she called the little girl, the woman
who had a child Ava's age, and asked her, did
(42:41):
your husband see.
Speaker 6 (42:42):
My daughter naked?
Speaker 8 (42:44):
Well?
Speaker 14 (42:44):
That really like scared the girl because yeah, he's seen
her naked. He helped bathe their children, and he would
get Aba out of the bathtub.
Speaker 13 (42:53):
Two.
Speaker 14 (42:53):
And you know what you do when you got small kids.
You get diapers, you get pajamas, you put them to bed.
But she threatens people. She even does this. Her own
brother was afraid to be alone with Ava because of
what Katie may say.
Speaker 1 (43:11):
Wow, somewhere out there is Ava Grace. And I agree
with mister Hopper. There is no substitute.
Speaker 5 (43:23):
For a dad, your dad.
Speaker 1 (43:26):
And if she can only have you for one year,
five years, ten years, twenty years, it'd be better. It
would be better than never having you at all. If
you know or you think you know anything about Missing Grace,
we are showing you age progressed photos. Now please dial
(43:51):
San Antonio PD two one zero to zero seven seven
six six zero to one zero to zero seven seven
six six zero. We can bring Ava Grace home. We
remember an American hero police officer, Thomas Devlin, Boston College PD,
(44:14):
passed away in a line of duty after twenty one
years of service. Le's behind wife turned widow, Patricia daughter
Christine American hero police officer Thomas Devlin.
Speaker 5 (44:28):
Nancy Grace signing off goodbye friend,
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, a dad's desperate search and
at this hour is a tic talk girl actually missing
Ava Grace, aged six. Good evening, I'm Nancy Grace. This
is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being
with us.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Search for a six year old Ava Grace Baldwin and
her mother, Katherine Baldwin is cold from the very beginning
and gets even colder when Catherine Baldwin's fourd escape is
found abandoned in a parking lot on Whippy Road in
San Antonio. David Hopper is awarded soul custody and a
felony warrant issued for the arrest of the alleged abductor.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
While Ava Grace's father, David Hopper believes his daughter is alive,
family do not concur they haven't seen or heard from
Ava since twenty fifteen and believe they're dead. Hopper believes
they're alive in hiding.
Speaker 4 (00:51):
She has family in Texas, Oklahoma, California, Florida, and Illinois,
so that's kind of what we're thinking. She might be
hiding out or around that area, and we believe that
there are people here in the San Antonio area that
helped her get out of the state, so there's somebody
there that knows where she's at.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
Is this beautiful little girl, Ava Grace still alive? Her
father insists, yes, she is. Is she being kept in hiding?
And if so, why this? As conspiracy theories emerge, identifying
the little girl as a TikTok star joining me in
All Star panel. But first to a very special guest
(01:29):
joining us tonight. It's Avia Grace's father, David Hopper, and
with him Tina Hopper Fulbright, Avia Grace's auntie.
Speaker 5 (01:40):
To both of you, thank you for being with us.
You know, David.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Hopper, you were blessed with a little girl, a beautiful
little girl, and for six years she was in your life.
I can't imagine taking one step without.
Speaker 5 (01:58):
My daughter and my son in my life.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
And I've got to hear, how have you managed to
keep going without Ava Grace.
Speaker 6 (02:08):
It's it's a battle every day.
Speaker 7 (02:11):
I have a good support team with my family's behind
me kind of keep it going.
Speaker 6 (02:15):
My faith in God and believing his promises and just
there's times you.
Speaker 7 (02:21):
Have to remove yourself from the case itself and just
have hope.
Speaker 6 (02:27):
So that's what I do.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Why are you convinced, mister Hopper that Ava Grace is
still alive.
Speaker 7 (02:33):
Because of Katie's background, she was her and her two
brothers were hit out from her family also by her dad,
and they were hit out for sixteen years. So it's
a learned behavior and I just kind of feel in
my heart that that's what's going on here. I think
that not only that, but with her family not helping
searching for them and not being involved in the case,
(02:56):
it just kind of just something I feel in my heart.
Speaker 6 (03:01):
Someone knows where she's at and she's alive.
Speaker 7 (03:02):
If her dad could do it and get away with
it for sixteen years, Like I said, it's a learned behavior,
and I think that's what's happening now.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Joining me in All Star Panel, but straight out to
veteran trial lawyer Darryl Cohen. Former felony prosecutor in Inner
City Atlanta, Fulton County, now defense attorney and civil attorney.
You can find them on Facebook. Darryl be co and
Darryl thank you for being with us. Did you hear
what mister Hopper David just said. He goes in my heart,
(03:31):
I know she's still alive now, Darryl, you and I
practiced in Inner City Fulton County for many, many years,
and they're certainly not a lack of business.
Speaker 5 (03:43):
I can't even count the number of trials.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
I've tried to make a list, but there are too
many to really count, much less the number of cases
we investigated with a.
Speaker 5 (03:53):
Staggering case load.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
Darryl, when a witness or victim's family says, I feel
in my heart, A lot of people discount that I
do not. I do not discount it because so many
times has been proven true. So when he says, and
many people may say it's wishful thinking she's not alive,
But when he says, he's carrying on the search because
(04:16):
he knows one hundred percent in his heart, Ava Grace
is alive and in hiding.
Speaker 5 (04:23):
I believe in Darryl.
Speaker 8 (04:24):
Nancy, there's more to it than just being in his heart.
He's utilizing logic. If one person was able to hide
for one six sixteen years, then what he is saying,
I believe, based upon what has happened before, that she
is alive and in hiding unbeknownst to her because mom
(04:46):
is keeping her hidden, and that in my view.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
Is look at the screen, Can I see that video
one more time? Of Ava Grace in the car, Darryl Cohen,
how many videos have I taken of the chill in
the car, the twins singing and talking and saying all
kind of crazy things. I mean, look at her, she
doesn't even have all of her grown up, her adult
(05:11):
teeth yet.
Speaker 5 (05:12):
I mean, this guts apparent.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
I mean a visceral cut to see these videos. And
we're getting these videos from the Hopper family. I mean, David,
how many times have you looked at these and looked
at these and looked at these over and over and
over a little Eva Grace.
Speaker 7 (05:34):
Too many, too many times? Say you've got to learn
to distance yourself from it at times.
Speaker 5 (05:41):
You know what, David, My husband once had a closet.
He once had a closet full of.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
Clothes, clothes and shoes and all this stuff. No more,
you know what that closet now is the whole thing. Albums,
hand made albums of the twins by me. And yes,
I go back and look at them all the time, right,
I look at them all the time.
Speaker 5 (06:07):
I can't. I can't help it.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
Now I have the phone, of course, so I can
scroll through and look at them. When you look at
all of these videos and pictures of your little girl.
Speaker 5 (06:17):
What goes through your mind?
Speaker 7 (06:19):
David pain Penis, Uh, and I said, hope, there's days
I have good days.
Speaker 6 (06:28):
There's days.
Speaker 7 (06:29):
Uh, you know it's wat I remember too, like right
now that's kind of sad on the videos. Yeah, I'm
missed out on her entire life. And Uh, that's all
I've ever wonder was a family and uh, a child.
And when you have it and it's rocked from you,
(06:49):
it just leaves an aptiness in your heart that nothing
can feel that voiant. So but at the same time,
it makes me smile because I see how beautiful she is.
Speaker 6 (07:00):
I do have that hope that I'll be reunited with
her again.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
So that day when a car, a Ford Escape is
found abandoned in a parking lot on Whitby Road in
San Antonio, that car wasn't left there by chance. That
car was left in that location for a reason. I
(07:25):
want to think through this, David Hopper, Why do you
believe Baldwin's car was left in that location to be found?
Speaker 6 (07:36):
Really? I don't know on that. There's all sorts of
speculations on that.
Speaker 7 (07:41):
I just I think because she had help, because she
used to do she'd go to the hookah bars and
stuff like that, and as we invested Denarlu investigation, we
found out that there was one here by there, So
I kind of feel like there were some people in
the San Antonio area that that helped her came out
of if you also have found out that there's not
(08:01):
a lot of cameras around there, so it was easy
to get in and out. So to me, I just
doue that she had help getting out of town. That's
where they pick up at.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
Okay, you're not making me feel any better, David by
saying that mom visited the hookah bars all the time.
The abandoned car the ford escaped left clearly so it
would be found to send what message tonight? Where is
Ava Grace? And what does TikTok have to do with this?
If anything? After finding the vehicle abandoned, it gets worse.
Speaker 5 (08:37):
Listen.
Speaker 9 (08:38):
Catherine Baldwin has a history of alcohol and prescription drug abuse,
as well as mental illness, for which she takes medication.
Since she and Ava went missing, a prescription has not
been filled in her name. Law enforcement says they believe
Baldwin is moving frequently and it is possible she is
visiting homeless and women's shelters, claiming she is a victim
of stalking the case of Ava Baldwin as being investigated
(09:00):
as a non custodial parent abduction.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
Straight out to doctor Chloe Carmichael, renowned clinical psychologist, author
of Nervous Energy, Harness The Power of Your Anxiety, and
you can find her on Twitter at doctor Chloe.
Speaker 5 (09:13):
Doctor Chloe, thank you for being with us.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
I've seen this before, that an adult would rather have
the child with them, living in shelters, living in the rough,
going from place to place, rather than letting the parent,
the responsible parent, the loving parent, have the child. Can't
they see what hell they're dragging the child through.
Speaker 5 (09:38):
Living that way?
Speaker 1 (09:39):
I mean, going from woman's shelter to woman's shelter, claiming
she's been stalked and she needs to be in a
shelter and Dragammy. You've been in a woman's shelter, right,
I mean that's no place to raise a child.
Speaker 10 (09:53):
Nancy, of course you're right about that. One thing that
stood out to me though, is the mention of substance
abuse as she is and potentially being off of her medication.
I don't know what the medication was for, but for example,
if it were about some kind of a psychotic disorder
like schizophrenia, or even the substance abuse itself can sometimes
(10:14):
produce paranoia.
Speaker 5 (10:16):
The reason I mentioned.
Speaker 10 (10:17):
That is because, as you said, if she's going from
place to place with fears of stalking, it may be
that she's seriously deluded. She may believe that she's you know,
rescuing her child from you know, some delusional dragnet, that
she in her mind, you know, believes that she's keeping
(10:37):
her safe. It does surprise me, though, that she's been
able to do this, you know, successfully for nearly a decade.
I mean, I just I'm a little surprised that through
you know, investigators, that we haven't been able to locate
her or the child.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
Wait, along with Ava Grace's father, believe Ava Grace is
still alone for many, many different reasons, and that she's
being kept in hiding. But how does the dad put
his head on the pillow every night, wondering is she dead?
Speaker 5 (11:12):
Is she alive? Where is she? What has become of her?
Speaker 1 (11:17):
You are seeing pictures and video of Ava Grace with
her father. He had her for six wonderful years before
she was snatched away from him and it didn't start
in a good place.
Speaker 9 (11:33):
David Hopper meets Catherine Baldwin in a recovery program called
Celebrate Recovery, a twelve step program helping people recover from alcohol, drugs,
and other issues. Even though newcomers are discouraged from making
big life decisions in their first year of sobriety, David
Hopper and Catherine Baldwin have a whirlwind courtship followed by
a small marriage. Shortly after meeting.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
Tonight, a missing little girl's dad is haunting his ex
wife leaves disappear with his daughter after a thirty four
day marriage. Okay, straight back out to David Hawper, this
is Avid Grace's father.
Speaker 5 (12:11):
You met in rehab. Why were you in rehab twenty
years ago?
Speaker 6 (12:17):
I was with the perfect person in the world.
Speaker 7 (12:19):
I had a drug addiction to Celebrate recovery, I guess
I beat it. So I became a ministry leader there
for the chapter in our hometown. I was a ministry
leader for four years, and during that time, that's when
I met Katie.
Speaker 6 (12:36):
She was at the y Oklahoma City area. We met
up there at one of their programs.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
What was it about you that attracted you and moved
you to a world win wedding. You married her right
after rehab.
Speaker 6 (12:50):
Why we have known each other for like about four
or five months.
Speaker 7 (12:54):
She has the ability to hit on a great facade.
She manipulates, tells you what you want to hear, and
a lot of things that she told me I found
out later on the lies. So it's about putting on
to speak. I like said, it's a facade. I said,
is just she's not who she says she is, And
(13:15):
that's what we found out later on. That's why last year, David.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
I don't want you to feel like you are the
gullible one joining me.
Speaker 5 (13:25):
You've met him already.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
Darryl Cohen, veteran trial lawyer Daryl Cohen. I don't know
if you ever had the privilege of practicing in front
of Judge Luther Alverson.
Speaker 5 (13:35):
I was a signist's courtroom for.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
Years, and he yeah, I loved best judge in the courthouse,
by the way, and the oldest judge, I might add,
And he wanted to prove to everybody he was fit
as a fiddle to stay on the bench. So we
would have to be on trial every other week and
keep the lowest jail count of any other judge in
the courthouse.
Speaker 5 (13:53):
Right, So that's where I got all my trial experience.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
But Darryl he had if you remember, the process that
other judge did not have, where I would sit in
a conference room and each defendant from the jail would
come in and sit on the other side of the
table with their lawyer, and we would try to do
a plea deal if possible. Okay, So Darryl, I don't
know if you ever went through that with Alverson. But
(14:18):
I would sit there and listen to the defendants and
I'm thinking about what David Hopper said, and they would
be the worst of the worst, charged with childless station, murder, rape,
you name it. And they would sit down and they
would go, well, hello, miss Grace, and there we go.
I call it the Eddie Haskell effect. Remember off, leave
(14:41):
it to beaver, missus cleaver, lovely in those pearls, that
whole thing. And if you listen to them long enough,
you get totally sucked into their story.
Speaker 5 (14:50):
They're very believable.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
What I'm saying is violent felons can be very charming.
And here's this beautiful, full woman, a damsel in distress
and rehab, and she totally snows David Happer, he falls
for her, and bam they're married. People can be very
charming when in reality they're a snake in human skin.
Speaker 8 (15:16):
Nancy over a short term, just a snippet in time.
People can do that. They can be salespeople, they can
be actors. They do what they feel like they can
do and they get away with it. By the way,
Judge Alperson used to have a motto of twa and
I said, your honor, What does that mean? He says,
Darryl travel wild, ambulatory, nothing to do with this case,
(15:39):
but he was a great human being and a great judge.
People have an ability to be snakes when they are
really bad serpents. They have the ability to be a
harmless snake, garden snake, when in fact they're a copperhead
or a coral snake. That is not unusual.
Speaker 5 (16:00):
And that's exactly what this woman is.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
How this beautiful little girl came out of her I
do not know just after thirty four days of wedded bliss.
I can only imagine those thirty four days.
Speaker 3 (16:17):
This goes down thirty four days after their small wedding,
David Baldwin filed for divorce. During the separation, process, Hopper
finds out his soon to be ex wife is pregnant.
David Hopper vows to be the kind of father his
child will be proud of, but Baldwin tells him he
isn't the father. Shortly after Baldwin gives birth to a
beautiful baby girl, a court ordered DNA test proves David
(16:39):
Hopper is the father of Ava Grace. The couple is
no longer married, but they eventually begin making plans to
raise Ava together.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
David Hopper and Catherine Baldwin's whirlwind romance ends after just
thirty four days of marriage, during which Catherine reveals she
is pregnant with their daughter, Ava Grace.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
Talk about a wind courtship that was a whirl wind
marriage divorce after just thirty four days.
Speaker 5 (17:06):
David, what went wrong? Dare?
Speaker 11 (17:07):
I ask?
Speaker 7 (17:09):
At that time, when when I was a ministry leader
Silver in Recovery, I was also through the program here
in Oklahoma called Drug Court. What I found out is
when I went into the office one day, the administrator
asked me if things was okay, and I said yes.
Why do you ask me, she says, because your wife
has been calling Anne, tellam that you're using well. I
was testing every day, so that wasn't the case. So
(17:29):
when I confronted her about it, she kind of went off.
And I don't want to have say a middle She
had a middle breakdown, you might say, because she got
caught at it. But if I'd have failed drug court,
I was looking at fourteen years in prison. So I
told her, you know what, this is a good work.
Speaker 5 (17:46):
Oh my stars, she was setting you up to go
to prison.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
Guys joining me now in addition to David Hopper and
Avid Grace is Auntie Tina Hopper Fulbright, Darryl Cohen, and
doctor Chloe. Ralph Garcia is joining us senior sergeant with
the Bear County District Attorney's Office there in Texas this jurisdiction,
and he has been working on this case since Avia
(18:12):
Grace went missing.
Speaker 5 (18:15):
What can you tell me about this bio? Mom?
Speaker 12 (18:19):
Well, Nancy, this you know, I didn't know the Hoppers
at all before they showed up here with this story
about the Ava missing. Once uh, once I determined that
you know, Ava and Catherine were missing, I started an
investigation trying to trying to locate Catherine and Ava. I
(18:43):
did a lot of the groundwork here here in San Antonio.
Uh kind of identified places as she she uh she
lived nearby, and people that she was associating with. And
you know, after a while, I guess after months, I decided,
I came to a conclusion she wasn't in San Antonio.
(19:04):
But there were a lot of stories, a lot of
stories about Catherine uh uh. Some of them, some of
them were were not so nice and some of them
some of them some people said that she was a
great mom.
Speaker 11 (19:16):
But I believe that she had the ability to in
public be a great mom, uh, be that person as
you can see by the pictures.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
I really appreciate you being here today, but you can't
just drop a bomb on Nancy Grace and she doesn't
follow up.
Speaker 5 (19:31):
For instance, you said there's a lot of stories matter,
some good, some bad. What what story be specific?
Speaker 12 (19:37):
Well, you know when I started, when I started my investigations,
I spoke to her family.
Speaker 11 (19:43):
They gave me the same stories that David gave me
about about.
Speaker 6 (19:47):
How she was.
Speaker 11 (19:48):
She would use people, and she would go out with
certain men and in hopes that she can get something
out of a relationship. I also spoke to some of
the people that were in the uh the home that
was that she was at in.
Speaker 5 (20:01):
What kind of home was it? Sergeant? What kind of
you said? The home? What kind of home was it?
Speaker 13 (20:07):
So she disappeared from It was a home for a
battered woman that actually sat on a couple of akers
and had several different quarters living quarters on there. It
was a pretty pretty nice place. I believe you hold on.
Speaker 5 (20:25):
Just a moment.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
I want to follow up with a few things you said.
You're giving me so much information, Sergeant Garcia, thoughts are
pinging like a old pinball machine.
Speaker 5 (20:41):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace joining me now, Crime.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
Stories investigative reporter Dave mac Dave.
Speaker 5 (20:54):
Thank you so much for being with us.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
I'm trying to just absorb all the knowledge I'm getting
right now in our search for little Ava Grace.
Speaker 5 (21:02):
I heard a lot of things.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
Heard that the mom is a user and uses people.
Speaker 5 (21:08):
That tells me a lot. But I'm going to go
to the shrink on that.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
But to you, now, I see why you're trying to
convince me, Dave Mack, that the mom may be going
from shelter to shelter to shelter. And I've seen a
lot of shelters, only a handful of them were fit
to have a child in Okay. Now, I see what
you're saying, because at the time this mother, dare I
(21:32):
call her that she doesn't deserve It was in this
battered women's center shelter. She wasn't battered, she was on
the run. She left, and it wasn't untill like twenty
days later that anybody even knew she was gone, right,
And the dad kept waiting to hear from them, hear
from them, hear from them when he finds out they're gone,
much like call it mom.
Speaker 5 (21:52):
Laurie Valo. Now, I see what you're saying.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
So what's her pattern, Dave mac She would go from
shelter to shelter and convinced them she was being chased
or beaten or stalked. Yep.
Speaker 3 (22:03):
She had a pretty common story, Nancy, that she was
the victim, she needed help and expected them to put
her up. I mean she went from shelters to religious missions,
you know, any group that would take her in, beat her,
give her a place to crash. That was pretty much it.
And she always had that idea that you know, she's
being followed, she is being chased. You know, she's got
to protect her daughter. And she was able to work
(22:27):
that into a lifestyle for a while, and you know what, Nancy,
very possible she's still doing it, and that Ava Grace
doesn't even know we're looking for her.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Gosh, Tina Hopper Foolbright joining us. Ava Grace is on tape. Tina,
I've got the same feeling that David has that she
is alive. And I guess you, standing by watching everything unfold,
could see this coming a mile away.
Speaker 5 (22:55):
Yes, yeah, what happened.
Speaker 14 (22:59):
He married her, they divorced, She went missing when she
was seven months pregnant. We hunted her down, we found
her on my space. She ran Child Protected Services, got
involved in Texas, She married an eighty year old man, divorced,
(23:23):
He divorced her, She ran with Ava again, and for
four years we chased her through the courts and then
CPS founder. They told my brother, if you come to Texas, you.
Speaker 5 (23:38):
Can have her.
Speaker 14 (23:39):
So they went to Texas to pick up Ava, and
the courts wouldn't let him have them. They built temporary
custody and from there she ran.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
You know what, Tina, you just succinctly gave me a
perfect picture of what's going on here. And if anybody
thinks that she or Ava Grace are dead. They are
dead wrong, because you know what Miss Tina when you
don't know a horse.
Speaker 5 (24:04):
Look at her track record. She's been doing.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
This as long as you guys have known her, starting
at seven months pregnant. Yeah, starting at seven months pregnant
or before that. She took off after thirty four days
of marriage, she took off.
Speaker 5 (24:20):
That's the first.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Time that we know of, but I suspect this is
a long standing pattern. Then at seven months pregnant, she
takes off with the baby.
Speaker 5 (24:28):
Child Protective Services gets involved.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
Then she marries an eighty year old man, and I
guess at that time she was in her early thirties,
early thirties, Okay, forget that fifty year age difference.
Speaker 5 (24:41):
Then he divorces her. I can only imagine why.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
Then you think you got her back, You're gonna get custody,
and bam she runs. Okay, but at the get go
there was an agreement on custody.
Speaker 5 (24:57):
Listen.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
After coming to an agreement on co parenting their little girl,
it is shocked when involved and loads up little Eva.
Grayson moves to San Antonio, Texas, seven hours away from
David's home in Oklahoma. Hopper is not happy about the
decision and hires an attorney to try to work out
custody arrangement. The custody battle includes more than just personal
relationships between two people, but custodial laws between two states,
(25:18):
Oklahoma and Texas two.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
Daryl Cohen, veteran trial lawyer, both criminal and civil. See
that's a problem, Darryl Cohen. We've had so many cases.
Speaker 5 (25:27):
Where children are taken across.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
State lines and then the two states, through no fault
of their own, are not communicating.
Speaker 5 (25:34):
I saw it in Harmony Montgomery. I saw it in
Adrian Jones.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
I saw it in the Turpin Family House of Horrors,
where a family moves and moves and moves, and CPS
is chasing them and lose their trail.
Speaker 5 (25:47):
And that's what's happening here.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
So Dad is hell bent that he will have his
daughter in his life. They work out a custody agreement,
and mom has two stays warring Oklahoma and Texas, and
the girl, the baby girl gets lost in the sauce
between the two states.
Speaker 5 (26:07):
Darryl Nancy.
Speaker 8 (26:08):
This is typical of someone who believes every word that
they say, regardless of whether it has any semblance of
truth or veracity. But what we do have. Every state
has by a different name interference with custody. That's a
criminal charge that can be prosecuted. Every state has a
different name for that statute, but it exists and they
(26:30):
have to use that as best they can. This woman
is great at what she's doing. She is probably bipolar.
She is someone who can tell the biggest lie with
the most truthful face and voice and eye contact.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
I guarantee she's under an assumed name, and Ava Grace
doesn't even know we're looking for her, doesn't even know
she has a father out there. I guarantee, because she
told the little girl that before. And we know that
phem speaking of an unfit mother to Dave Mac, Crime
(27:10):
Stories investigative reporter, did you know that the mother?
Speaker 5 (27:16):
It's like eating a dirt sandwich.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
I want to choke every time I call this woman
a mother was put herself on video performing a sex
act with Ava Grace in the background.
Speaker 5 (27:30):
Did you know that I did.
Speaker 3 (27:32):
That's actually when CPS got involved, Nancy, because she did
post this solo sexual act online for all the world
to see.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
And then Dave Mac, so this wasn't like a video
disgusting video and hey, you in a video yourself having
sex with somebody else or yourself. Fine, I would just
be mad if you didn't. But that's not what happened here.
This is a sex act with the baby there in
(28:03):
the background, and she posted it on a public plat form.
Speaker 5 (28:09):
This isn't like.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
Sending picks or sexy picks to your lover or your spouse.
She put the video off herself in a sex act
with the child in the video and posted it online.
How many pervs do you think watch that? About a
(28:32):
million times? That never occurred to me, Nancie. All I
could think of is my own children and business.
Speaker 5 (28:38):
Do you think we're in this is a walk at
the park or not? I was really Kroger.
Speaker 3 (28:45):
I was just really thinking of this so called mother,
you know, with her two year old child at the
time on the same bed while she's doing a solo
sex act or video online. I thought about how horrible
that was. I didn't even get to the perv aspect
of the whole thing.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
Ava's dad receives a strange call one day after Ava's
school reports the six year old hasn't been to class
in well over twenty one days.
Speaker 1 (29:11):
Can you imagine can you imagine getting a call from
a school and they say.
Speaker 5 (29:16):
Where's your little girl? Where's your six year old girl?
Speaker 1 (29:18):
She's not only absent today, she hasn't been here for
twenty one days.
Speaker 5 (29:22):
Listen.
Speaker 9 (29:23):
Ava Grace Baldwin is a very active little girl. She
enjoys cheerleading, gymnastics, soccer, and tumbling. That is why it
is such a surprise when the principal of the private
school Ava Grace attends in San Antonio calls her father,
David Hopper, at his home in Oklahoma September seventeenth, asking
if he can explain why Ava Grace has missed the
last twenty one days of school. Hopper has no idea
(29:45):
and calls the San Antonio Police to report six year
old Ava Grace Baldwin missing. Police go to the address
listed for Ava Grace at the school and immediately.
Speaker 5 (29:54):
Know they have a really big problem.
Speaker 9 (29:56):
The address Katherine Baldwin put down for a home address
for Ava is a vacant.
Speaker 3 (30:00):
Lot, police believed. When Catherine realized Hopper was going to
give custody, Baldwin panicked and ran off with the child.
Speaker 5 (30:07):
Oh my stars.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Police immediately began investigating where is Avia Grace and they
go to the LKA last known address and it is
a vacant lot.
Speaker 5 (30:22):
Tina Hopper Fulbright.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
This is Avia Grace is auntie joining me along with
her dad, David. Tina, when you learned the address was
a vacant lot, your stomach had to drop to your ankles. Yeah,
can you I want to circle back to where we
were before I go off on the vacant lot. Did
(30:46):
you have any idea the bio mom was performing sex
acts on camera with Ava Grace in the background.
Speaker 5 (30:55):
How did you find out about that?
Speaker 14 (30:57):
Mister Moore, which was the eighty year old man she
made married his family. He divorced her through the courts
down in Bernie, Texas. And David was down there along
with my mother and they listened to the testimony and
that was brought up in court.
Speaker 1 (31:14):
So you had no idea this was going on until
you sat in on the eighty year old's divorce. What else,
if anything, did you learn from that testimony?
Speaker 6 (31:27):
I learned a lot.
Speaker 5 (31:29):
I learned a lot. But everything we learned and I
want to hear it.
Speaker 14 (31:31):
Tell me, well missed thirty seven days of nine weeks
of her kindergarten school and when they went out to
check welfare check on her. She had painted PoCA dots
all over and said that she had chicken pop. The
neighbor lady informed us that she give a vassalt math
(31:53):
in pure salt rock salt. I learned that when she
took off the Florida, she tried to give ava to
the people that she was staying with. She was staying
in a shelter. Some people had ava at three years old,
and she was going to leave ava in the state
(32:14):
of Florida while she come back to fight David over custody.
That didn't mark.
Speaker 6 (32:21):
I learned a lot. I learned a lot.
Speaker 14 (32:24):
A lot take hours to tell you what I learned.
Speaker 6 (32:29):
The sad deal.
Speaker 1 (32:30):
I know that the bio mom in this case has
an adult daughter who is still living. Catherine Baldwin has
an adult daughter that, according to documents, was adopted out.
Speaker 5 (32:43):
But that's not what you say happens. What happened to
her adult daughter.
Speaker 14 (32:48):
Her adult daughter lives in California, and I'm saying she
sold her because that's the story that Katie told us.
That the people paid her money. They were her god parents,
and they paid her money throughout her whole time. But
at one time she took that child from them people
and took her down to Florida and kept her down
(33:09):
there for three or four months. It was an open adoption,
and she took her down there for three or four
months and took her from the people from California. So
she took that child too, but then she returned that child.
Speaker 3 (33:23):
Catherine Baldwin has ties to several states, including Florida, and
Ava Grace's father, David Hopper, says there is a case
in Florida where Catherine Baldwin approaches a couple about taking
custody of Ava and raising her. The couple is shocked
by the offer and reach out to local law enforcement,
but police are unable to locate Baldwin or Ava Grace.
Speaker 5 (33:49):
Crime stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 3 (33:55):
Is it possible Catherine and Ava Grace are hiding in
plain sight? Armchair detectives claiming Catherine and Nava Baldwin are
on TikTok using the profile of Be Pop and Bebe.
The TikTok videos rack up a lot of comments from
viewers who claim to see things in the videos that
lead them to believe Bibe is being trafficked due to
a lock seen in the bedroom they're using for filming
(34:17):
The story is even featured in a Rolling Stone magazine article, and.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
The Rolling Stone Magazine article created a big stir in
a search for Ava Grace. What does TikTok have to
do with this. Let's look at the TikTok video we're
talking about. This is from our friends at beebop and
bbe Okay.
Speaker 5 (34:36):
Look, David, when you.
Speaker 1 (34:38):
First were told that Ava Grace had emerged on TikTok,
what did you think?
Speaker 6 (34:44):
I had mixed reactions about it. At the time.
Speaker 7 (34:47):
I was glad that our cases getting more views and
that was coming to you know, by the public.
Speaker 6 (34:55):
That was a good thing for it.
Speaker 7 (34:56):
But after seeing the videos I recognized the media that
it wasn't her. There's just certain facial features and stuff
like that that you see that it was at Ada
and it was at Katie.
Speaker 6 (35:07):
But the recognition brought towards Ava's case. That was a
good thing.
Speaker 7 (35:11):
Because our phones blew up, I mean, emails, people calling us, messages.
Speaker 6 (35:16):
It was it was.
Speaker 7 (35:17):
It turned out to be a blessing because afterwards a
lot of national syndication news places got a hold of
the case. Let's even started contacting us. So in a way,
it was a good thing. But but it was it
wasn't her.
Speaker 5 (35:31):
What about it, Tina hopperful Bright? Did you know immediately
it's not her?
Speaker 6 (35:36):
I did?
Speaker 15 (35:37):
I did, And she's not a little real competity either that.
We have been bombarded daily, hundreds of thousands telling us
that we don't care. It needs to be investigated.
Speaker 14 (35:50):
What type of people are we that we're not going
to go after these videos? They have been investigated. US
marshals have investigated it. Ralph Garci investigated, They've been highly investigated.
Speaker 5 (36:02):
You know what.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
You're absolutely right, Tina, Ralph Garcia, you've investigated it fully.
Speaker 5 (36:08):
What did you do to investigate it and what did
you learn?
Speaker 12 (36:11):
Well, Nancy, what I did was I went ahead and
this research on IP addresses and stuff like that, found
out what city was in contacted.
Speaker 11 (36:21):
The local police ended up getting an ID and.
Speaker 12 (36:28):
Confirming the birth certificate in driver's license of the mother
who had lived in that city of her whole life.
Speaker 11 (36:36):
There are similarities in the way they look, but it's
just was not her.
Speaker 3 (36:39):
A Facebook page titled Ava Grace Baldwin Hopper Letters to
You has been established where anyone can write letters directly
to Ava Grace and share missing child posters that include
an age progression photo of what Ava Grace might look
like today. Family, friends and interested individuals post good wishes
and thoughts and are encouraged to share the page and information.
Speaker 1 (37:01):
Back to renowned clinical psychologist doctor Chloe Carmichael.
Speaker 5 (37:06):
Doctor Chloe, when I look.
Speaker 1 (37:08):
At the mom and you know how I hate to
call her that she doesn't deserve that title background I would,
and you're the shrink. But if I were a betting person,
I'm putting money on it. This woman is not dead
and this daughter, Avid Grace is not dead.
Speaker 5 (37:25):
She's out there.
Speaker 10 (37:26):
Yeah, I agree with you on that, Nancy. Obviously you
know we don't know, but I'm so glad that you're
doing this segment because I agree with you that if
she is alive, it's very doubtful that the mother, as
you say, is hard to call her that is letting
better know about that because there's such an incredibly narcissistic
quality to this, you know, so called mother. So going back,
(37:49):
it's you know, kind of graphic. But going back to
the information that the mother posted a video of herself
pleasuring herself with her daughter in the background, there's something
in incredibly narcissistic about that.
Speaker 14 (38:01):
Right.
Speaker 10 (38:02):
First of all, doing that and then posting it for
the public. There's kind of an incredible desire for attention there.
And then either she was aware her daughter was in
the background and thought it would generate more interest, which
is obviously narcissistic to use her daughter as a prop
that way, or if she was genuinely unaware, if she
(38:23):
would be that self absorbed that even in setting up
a camera of herself to do this, that she would
be so self absorbed that she wouldn't even think of
her own daughter appearing there in the frame. Either way,
to me, it points to just an incredible level of narcissism.
The mother is I must say, she looks like an
attractive woman. As somebody else mentioned, she seems like she
(38:46):
knows how to say the right things and you know,
kind of manipulate people on a certain level. And the
fact that she, you know, married that eighty year old
man with a fifty year age gap willly to run
out shortly afterwards. I leave somebody you know said that
she attempted to sell you know, a different child.
Speaker 5 (39:05):
There's just an.
Speaker 10 (39:05):
Incredible objectification of people, you know again, where it's like
she would be using her daughter as a prop you know,
maybe to get priority entry into these places, or you know,
God forbid whatever. You know she's guiding her daughter into
at this point. So I join everybody here with hopes
and prayers that maybe this segment will even raise just
(39:27):
that last bit of awareness that's needed. Ava Grace. If
you're out there, please there's how.
Speaker 1 (39:32):
You know to David Hopper or Auntee Hopper Fulbright, the
father and aunt of Ava Grace. If you don't know
what's going to happen, you look at what has already happened.
She's already sold one daughter, she's already tried to sell
Ava Grace, and we know that. So it's very possible
(39:52):
that right now a family has Ava Grace and they
think they're protecting her from the mother.
Speaker 5 (40:00):
They don't even know you exist.
Speaker 6 (40:02):
David, Yeah, that's that's true.
Speaker 7 (40:04):
And I said with the first time I got to
see Ava, I was in San Antonio after a court
after a court meeting. But uh, she was just surprised
because she kept savings the pictures you see us in
the pool.
Speaker 6 (40:15):
She is going, you're my daddy, You're my daddy. And
she didn't even.
Speaker 5 (40:20):
Know she had a dad.
Speaker 6 (40:22):
No, she did that's what her mother told her.
Speaker 7 (40:24):
So yeah, there's chances of we have a letter from
the people in Florida that were they were they Katie
tried to give her give them custody of Aba and
they apologize it.
Speaker 6 (40:33):
If we had known, we would have taken her a.
Speaker 7 (40:35):
Gun, do you So, Yeah, there's a chance today that she,
you know, Katie might not even have her anymore. And
it's not that maybe she's protecting her from the mother,
which is that's possible, but there's no ton of what
she has told other people about me and my family.
Uh so we me Katie. She's a manipulator, she's she's
(40:57):
a compulsive liar. She has eleven different alias as we've doubt.
Speaker 6 (41:01):
So there's there's.
Speaker 7 (41:02):
Things that I don't know. There's a chance she might
not be with the mother right now. And you asked me,
how do we get by? How do I get by? Daiies?
Speaker 6 (41:12):
Sometimes that's a thought that comes in my mind. Hopefully
she's with somebody that keep her safe.
Speaker 5 (41:18):
Uh.
Speaker 7 (41:18):
We know that Katie throughout her life has always had
to have a caretaker.
Speaker 6 (41:21):
Basically.
Speaker 7 (41:22):
In fact, the older man, mister Morgan that she married,
she when I first heard of him, she told me
it was her grandpa.
Speaker 14 (41:28):
Uh.
Speaker 7 (41:29):
I mean, there's just all these different stories and stuff,
but yeah, he was supposed to apparently been married to
her grandma at one time, and that's that's how I
knew about him. But uh, it's just it's all manipulation.
Speaker 5 (41:42):
I got a question for you, Tana.
Speaker 1 (41:46):
I mean, when you look at her track record, she
has probably sold Aba Grace and Ama Grace, I pray
to God is being raised by a family that wanted her,
and they have no idea that there there's a dad
out there desperately trying to connect with his bio daughter
that he loves. They probably think they're protecting her front
(42:09):
baby from the mother, and so they are, you know,
death con four totally under the radar.
Speaker 14 (42:19):
It's either that or they're afraid of the mother they're
afraid of. Because you cross Katie, you pay consequences for it.
I have found this out too, the people that she
wanted to give Aba to in Florida. On her way
back to Texas, she called the little girl, the woman
who had a child Ava's age, and asked her, did
(42:41):
your husband see.
Speaker 6 (42:42):
My daughter naked?
Speaker 8 (42:44):
Well?
Speaker 14 (42:44):
That really like scared the girl because yeah, he's seen
her naked. He helped bathe their children, and he would
get Aba out of the bathtub.
Speaker 13 (42:53):
Two.
Speaker 14 (42:53):
And you know what you do when you got small kids.
You get diapers, you get pajamas, you put them to bed.
But she threatens people. She even does this. Her own
brother was afraid to be alone with Ava because of
what Katie may say.
Speaker 1 (43:11):
Wow, somewhere out there is Ava Grace. And I agree
with mister Hopper. There is no substitute.
Speaker 5 (43:23):
For a dad, your dad.
Speaker 1 (43:26):
And if she can only have you for one year,
five years, ten years, twenty years, it'd be better. It
would be better than never having you at all. If
you know or you think you know anything about Missing Grace,
we are showing you age progressed photos. Now please dial
(43:51):
San Antonio PD two one zero to zero seven seven
six six zero to one zero to zero seven seven
six six zero. We can bring Ava Grace home. We
remember an American hero police officer, Thomas Devlin, Boston College PD,
(44:14):
passed away in a line of duty after twenty one
years of service. Le's behind wife turned widow, Patricia daughter
Christine American hero police officer Thomas Devlin.
Speaker 5 (44:28):
Nancy Grace signing off goodbye friend,
Host
Nancy Grace
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