July 1, 2025 • 40 mins
Bryan Kohberger has reached a plea deal in the deaths of four University of Idaho students.
The families of those killed received a letter signed by Latah County Prosecutor Bill Thompson telling them a plea deal had been worked out that prevents a trial, and Kohberger will confess to ending the life of their child while saving his own. Kohberger will plead guilty to four counts of murder and one felony count of robbery; he will be sentenced to life without parole and waive his right to appeal.
The judge still has to approve the plea deal. Judges have the final say on plea deals, even when the prosecution and defense agree on the terms.
The Bryan Thompson letter informs the victim's family that Kohberger's defense team approached the state last week, requesting a deal. Thompson says they met with available family members, weighed the right path forward, and made a formal offer to Kohberger.
The letter continues, “We cannot fathom the toll that this case has taken on your family. This resolution is our sincere attempt to seek justice for your family. This agreement ensures that the defendant will be convicted, will spend the rest of his life in prison, and will not be able to put you and the other families through the uncertainty of decades of post-conviction appeals.”
After hearing that a deal has been offered to Bryan Kohberger, the family of Kaylee Goncalves went public with their disappointment over the decision. Kaylee was just 21 when she was murdered in Moscow, and her family has been one of the most outspoken since their nightmare began, and they are not happy the prosecution has decided to let Kohberger avoid the death penalty.
A post on the Goncalves family Facebook page posted minutes after the deal was announced says, "We are beyond furious at the State of Idaho. They have failed us. Please give us some time. This was unexpected."
Joining Nancy Grace today:
- Philip Dubé - Court-Appointed Counsel, Los Angeles County Public Defenders: Criminal & Constitutional Law; Forensics & Mental Health Advocacy
- Dr. John Delatorre - Licensed Psychologist and Mediator (specializing in forensic psychology); Psychological Consultant to Project Absentis: a nonprofit organization that searches for missing persons; Twitter, IG, and TikTok - @drjohndelatorre
- Sheryl McCollum - Cold Case Investigative Research Institute Founder, Host of "Zone 7;" X: @149zone7
- Chris McDonough – Director at the Cold Case Foundation, Former Homicide Detective; Host of YouTube channel: “The Interview Room”
- Dr. Kendall Crowns - Chief Medical Examiner Tarrant County (Ft Worth), NEW Podcast: Mayhem in the Morgue, Lecturer: Burnett School of Medicine at TCU (Texas Christian University)
- Howard Blum - Author: "When The Night Comes Falling, A Requiem for The Idaho Student Murders;" Instagram: howard_blum_author, X: howardblum
- Joseph Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author of"Blood Beneath My Feet," and Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan;" X: @JoScottForensic
- Dave Mack - Crime Stories Investigative Reporter
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Crime stories with Nancy Grace breaking news tonight, a deal
with the Devil. Brian Koberger gets a plea deal? What
does it mean? No death penalty? What did the families
(00:23):
of the victims learn? Everything contained in a letter? Are
you kidding me? They find out about the deal with
the devil by letter of emergency.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
You don't know what.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
She's not waking up? They saw some men in their house?
What happened that night at the king Wrote address where
four beautiful University Idaho students were stabbed dead? Now we
will never know the audacity of taking a plea deal
(01:18):
with the devil? Brian Coburger without the families consent, I've
never heard anything like it. With me and all start
panel to make sense of what we are learning right now.
But I got to tell you, I'm crushed. I'm crushed,
(01:43):
and I can only imagine what the victims' families are
going through. You know, I thought I knew it all
about grieving and mourning and suffering when my fiance was
murdered shortly before our wedding. But now that I have
two children, nothing, nothing could be worse than this being
(02:06):
done to your child, and then you have no voice
no voice at all about a plea deal? Is this America?
How has this happened? Does the prosecutor not hear the
crying the whales of the victims' families with me a
(02:34):
loyal and all star panel that has analyzed, examined, investigated
this case from day one straight out to Dave Matc
Crime Stories investigative reporter, Dave, I can't believe this. I
cannot believe this. I feel like I've been kicked in
(02:56):
the stomach and in the teeth at the same time.
I expect shenanigans on the part of the defense. I
expect that there can be one bad apple on the
police force or on the investigation team, but this for
the prosecutors to go behind the victims' families back and
(03:18):
offer a plea deal. To Brian Coburger, what happened, Dave.
Speaker 3 (03:23):
Mack Well, Nancy. It looks like after the defense laid
out their possible alternative suspects idea and the judge rejected it,
that they reached out to the prosecution and said, get
us a deal, and the prosecution we're after consulting with
(03:48):
the families briefly and getting a negative response from at
least two of those families still turned around and, as
you said, made a deal with the devil that even
the best possible outcome for him and for the love.
All I can think of is these families and what
they're dealing with right this minute. Their hearts are broken,
(04:10):
their souls are crushed by a decision that just compounds
the pain.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
Okay, let me understand what you just said, Dave Night.
You said they. Now I believe you and I have
discussed that we use proper names, not he she they Okay,
who reached out to who for a deal?
Speaker 3 (04:28):
Brian Cooberger's defense team reached out to Brian Dick Thompson,
the prosecutor of Leta County, and asked for a deal.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
So what does that mean to me? Every defense attorney
drags up the hall at the courthouse wanting a deal,
a sweet deal, and they start off with, hey, can
I have straight probation? This guy's really he's a really
good guy. Yeah, that's how it always starts, right, And
then they go up and they go up. So what
so what they wanted a deal? That means nothing to me?
(04:59):
Of course they want a deal, that's a given. They
want a deal. I mean, so the defense asked for
a deal, and so what the state just been over
a barrel and said go to it.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
They said, take the death penalty off the table and
we're in. And that is apparently what has happened. The
guy was staring for murders, death penalty, firing squad. We've
done shows about the possible ways of him being taken
out if convicted, and after everything we've seen, it looks
(05:33):
like at the finish line, you're getting ready to go
to trial and they say, take the death penalty off
the table and we'll sign.
Speaker 4 (05:40):
Off on it.
Speaker 3 (05:40):
And that is apparently what happened. I say apparently because
I wasn't there or involved with any of the discussions,
I can only go on what had actually transpired in
the last twenty four hours.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
Everyone, let's take a listen to a little bit of
what we know happened in the hours surrounding the murders.
A four Idaho students, four students dead and now I
got to give this guy three hots and a cot
for the rest of his life. Wow, he has the
(06:11):
opportunity to make book and movie deals, have online girlfriends.
Are you kidding? Listen?
Speaker 5 (06:17):
Tell me exactly.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
What's going on.
Speaker 3 (06:20):
One of our one of the roommates who's passed out
and she's drunk class and she'dn't wake me up.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
Oh and they saw some man in their house house night.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
Yeah, Hian, are you with the patient?
Speaker 5 (06:34):
Okay?
Speaker 6 (06:34):
I need someone to keep the phone, stop passing it around.
Speaker 4 (06:38):
Can I just tell you what happened pretty much?
Speaker 1 (06:40):
What is going on currently as someone passed out right.
Speaker 4 (06:43):
Now, I don't really know what pretty much for him?
Speaker 5 (06:47):
Okay, So I need to know what's going on right
now if someone has passed out.
Speaker 3 (06:50):
Can you find that out, y'all.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
I'll come come on with the new doical check, but
we have to joining me longtime friend and colleague Cold
Case Investigative Research Institute founder and host of a new
hit podcast, Zone seven, Cheryl McCollum joining me. I've never
(07:12):
heard anything like it in a case of this magnitude
or any case, any case at all, to completely disregard
what the victims' families want because you're afraid to go
to trial. Really, he says, if what other reason could
there be to do this to the families of the victims.
(07:35):
How could I mean, if you're not there to help
the crime victims, why are you there. Why don't you
go get a job in a law firm and sit
in the library and research all day. You know, if
you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.
If you can't do battle, get off the battlefield. I'm
just I've stunned Cheryl.
Speaker 3 (07:57):
Nancy.
Speaker 6 (07:57):
Arguably, a quadruple homicide is going to be one of
the most important cases of your career. How does each
family not have a victim advocate in contact with them?
Speaker 1 (08:10):
Put her up? How Cheryl McCallum, frankly, pardon my latin,
but screw their careers. This is not about anybody's career.
Screw that. This is about what is right and what
is wrong and representing the victims. The victims don't want
(08:33):
is so why is it happening? Nancy?
Speaker 6 (08:36):
It's unimaginable. And that's why I'm saying this was not
taken in the breath that it should have been, that
you're going to send somebody an email, That there was
not a call made, that there was not an in
person meeting where everybody is together to understand what the
offer was and whether or not it was going to
be accepted or rejected. As a group, as they this
(09:01):
happened to a group of people. It should be under
every possible consideration that these moms and dads and siblings
have a say here.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
Period.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
The infuriating letter that prosecutors send the families of the
Idaho murder victims informing them that there is a plea
deal and nothing they can do about it. Okay, joining me,
You know him well, Philip Debay, high profile defense attorney
(09:34):
out of LA debate. I'm not arguing with you right
now about the state versus the defense, the evidence. I'm
talking to you about common courtesy right. You cannot enter
a plea deal without your client, the defendant, agreeing, can you.
Speaker 7 (09:52):
No, of course not. It's his right to the plea,
it's his right to the trial that he's giving up,
and it must be voluntary. But what a lot of
people don't know is that the law does not require
the concurrence of victims or victims next of kin in
settlement negotiations or the outcomes of plea deals. There are
to be looped in advised as to what's happening, but
(10:16):
they are not a party to the negotiations or the
ultimate plea agreement. And as alienating as it might sound,
it is simply not required. I think the only reapourse
that voters have right now is the ballot.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
Hey, you know what, Debay, You're right, there's nowhere in
the law that says you have to coordinate your plea
deal with the victims family. Yeah, there's no law saying that.
There's no common law, which is case law, stating that
it's neither statutory in the code, in the written letter
of the law, or in the common law, which is
(10:52):
case law. But in a murder case, I'm asking you
a yes no question debate when you enter a plea
in any felony, name it, I don't care what it is,
any felony, isn't it true? Debate that you must have
(11:14):
the consent, the agreement, the cooperation of your criminal defendant.
That is a yes no debate.
Speaker 4 (11:24):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
So what that means is, while a criminal defendant set
to plead guilty, who is guilty of murder, of any
felony it could be car theft, they must agree and cooperate.
Not so for the violent crime victims family. It doesn't
(11:48):
matter what they think. Have you ever, Chris McDonough, in
your life, heard anything like the stunt, the double deal,
the backstaff, that has gone on in this case, with
the victims' families all opposed to this deal, would you
(12:11):
even consider it? No?
Speaker 5 (12:13):
And in fact, you always want to have the cooperation
of the family as you enter back into that courtroom.
And to add, you know, salt into the wound. How
about restitution for the family.
Speaker 4 (12:29):
You know, I know what.
Speaker 5 (12:31):
I've seen these families so many times. What are they
thinking today? Right, Nancy? How much did my child cost?
Is that the question the prosecution's ask them, And that's
part of the deal. It's just a bad situation all around.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
Now, it's very interesting, guys. That's Chris mcdunna speaking. He
is former homicide detect who has worked over three hundred
hardcore homicides over his twenty five year career plus more.
He is a host of the Interview Room where I
found him on YouTube. To renowned author Howard Bloom joining me,
(13:10):
the author of the definitive work on this case. When
the night comes falling a requiem for the Idaho student murders, Howard,
I'm in shock. I couldn't believe it when I heard
there is a deal and the families disagree. Now, Howard,
I wouldn't have liked it or agreed with it, even
(13:33):
if the families had gone along with this, but I
would bow to their decision because of course I defer
to them. I can't believe the state has done this.
I'm stunned, and I very rarely go against the state
because I believe prosecutors generally have reasons for what they
(13:56):
do that we may not understand. Very often I question, well,
why this count and not that count? Why that strategy?
Why did you say that? But I know that they
know ins and outs of the case that the public
doesn't know, and they may very well have their reasons
for what they do. But I don't see a reason
for this.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
I mean, the state's behavior was at best cavalier and
at worst, I agree with you, reprehensible. But what I
think is interesting is why the fence at this point
decide to make a deal, and when I'm hearing is
about families too. Early on, Coburger had been approached by
his attorneys about making a deal and his mother was
(14:39):
against it, dead set against it. She wanted to come
to trial. Now that the trial was approaching, it looked
like Coburger's parents were going to have to go on
the stand. This was told to him. His mother would
have to talk about the telephone call she got at
six am Idaho time, nine am in Pennsylvania that went
(14:59):
on for about ar hour, just after the murders, and
she would have to say what was going on there?
Does she have any suspicions? His father was going to
have to talk about the cross country trip they took
and what was discussed during that trip, and to protect
his family. When this was presented to Coburger, Coburger finally
was convinced by his lawyers and maybe he should make
(15:19):
the deal. That's what I've been.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
Hearing, Howard Bloom. Do you think I care about that
family that they don't want to take the stand. So
I don't care that Coburger's family doesn't want to take
the stand. Do not care? They still have their son.
They can visit him, he can write books, he can
(15:42):
write letters, he can do FaceTime. He will be in
their lives forever, whether they want him to be or not.
I'm talking about what this has done to the victim's family. Remember, then,
you're raising the question is how did.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
This deal come about? How are they finally able to
make a deal. I think you know the families of
the victims are going to be victims forever. It's a tragedy.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
It's horrible.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
How did this come around that a deal was made?
What did the prosecution see that they were willing to
make this deal? Was it just about saving money or
are they that cynical for the state? Did they actually
think they could lose this case? What was going on here?
I think those are interesting questions too.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
You know, they've got DNA, They've got the defendants d
n A deaxaribo nucleic acid at the crime scene, on
the sheet of the murder weapon underneath a victim, and
they're pleading what they don't want the bother of going
(16:55):
to trial. I just all along. I have been to
them in court. I've been watching everything they do. They
seem like they were in it wholeheartedly. But now at
the eleventh hour, basically on the eve of trial, they
take a plea, a plea that infuriates, that destroys the victims' families. Why.
(17:17):
I cannot think of a single reason why. You know what,
let's have a little refresher joining US doctor Kendall Crown's
chief medical Examiner, Tyrant County. That's fort Worth. Never a
lack of business there. He is the esteemed lecturer at
the Burnett School of Medicine, and he is a star
(17:37):
of podcast Mayhem in the Morgue. Doctor Kendall Crowns, could
you explain how these four young students with their lives
before them at college, Like, you know what I'm going
through right now with the twins trying to get in college.
(17:58):
They're entering their senior year of high school right now.
Which one is the best, which one would help them,
which one would be better for each one of them?
Which one is a safe campus? And when you get
them there, you're like, oh, thank you Lord in heaven.
They're going to have a good life. This is all
I can do to ensure them that they'll be educated
and they'll be able to make their way in the world.
(18:20):
They're not going to be digging a ditch for Pete's sake,
hurting their back, breaking their limbs and they're stabbed dead
in their beds now evidence that one of the girls
tried to run for her life and was stabbed on
the stairwell. What happened physically to these victims, Doctor Kendall Crowns.
Speaker 8 (18:45):
So each of the victims has multiple stab wounds about
their body. And the problem with stab wounds is one
stab wound isn't necessarily going to incapacitate you right away,
so there will be kind of a running fight. The
rules will try and fight back, they may grab the
knife in a last ditch attempt to stop the stabbing,
(19:05):
but they receive multiple stab wounds each and that means
each one of those stab wounds created pain and suffering
that ultimately resulted in their death. And the one that
got up and ran, that meant she was pursued through
the hallway with the fear of this individual coming after
her and then finally getting up on her and then
finishing her off by stabbing her again multiple times. So
(19:27):
every one of them suffered quite a bit because stabbing
cases are usually quite horrific and have a lot of
violence associated with them.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
Daughtor Kimmel Crowns, You really gave me the airbrushed version
of that. A lot of pain, Yeah, I know, there's
a lot of pain. They're stabed dead. They're practically somnambulant,
half asleep, half awake, they can't breathe, their lungs fill
up with blood. There's stab wounds on their legs, all
(19:59):
of this somehow deriving from Coburger's bizarre fetishes about raping
women that are drug passed out or asleep. What was
their deaths? What were their deaths like?
Speaker 8 (20:18):
So their deaths would be basically, they're losing blood over
a period of time. They've got the multiple stab wounds,
They're bleeding internally, their chest cavities are filling up with blood.
If the lungs are involved, which I'm sure there were
several of them that had the lungs involved, they're coughing
up blood reswallowing it as they're slowly slipping into unconsciousness.
(20:39):
In individuals where the chest cavity is compromised, that it'll
fill up with blood and it'll make it hard to
breathe and essentially you're drowning in your own blood at
that moment.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
Doctor Kimmel Crown's you're absolutely correct, And I hope that
when you were teaching all of those medical students at
the Burnett School of Medicine that you explain to them
what crime victims lived through at the time of their death.
And it's not all clinical lives were snuffed out that
(21:16):
night and for what to fulfill Brian Coburger's weird fantasies.
How do we know about them? Because they were found
on a search engine raping women asleep, passed out, drugged, incapacitated.
(21:44):
Crime stories with Nancy Grace joining me now. Joseph Scott Morgan,
Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My
Feet on Amazon and a hit series Body Bags with
Joe Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, everything that doctor Kendall Crowns
(22:07):
said is true and more. What happened that night, Joe Scott.
Speaker 4 (22:15):
This individual gained access to this house, Nancy, I truly
believe in my heart of hearts, and no one will
ever convince me otherwise that he laid in wait. He
had observed this house, he looked for points of entry,
and then, for whatever reason, at that particular time, immediately
after Xanna had collected that food order, he decided to
(22:39):
make entry, and he was purposed to do what he did,
ascending I believe to that top floor. First went in
and attacked those two girls in that room. He attacked
one to the point where she was deceased at the
(23:00):
door and was blocking the ability for the other young
lady to egress out of that room. So he's got
them essentially trapped in there, and he's moving back and
forth between them, perhaps wielding this knife. And this knife,
for folks that haven't haven't been around a k bar
(23:21):
is very robust. I mean, it is a killing knife.
As a matter of fact, developed by the Marine Corps.
Nancy Day actually had a field manual that taught combat
tactics in what CQB close quarter combat with this knife,
and this is the weapon of choice here allegedly that
he wielded against both of them. One of the newest
(23:43):
turns in this whole thing back to Xana is that
you know, we were told wrongly by the corner. I
think two days afterwards she gave a press conference or
spoke to a reporter where she said that they all
appeared to be sleep in the bed. No, this was
a dynamic situation. Something drew or upstairs. And if now
(24:06):
we are to believe what happens, Xanna was attacked on
that staircase, and of course we know that her boyfriend
Ethan downstairs was equally attacked. We had heard or report
earlier that not only may he have been stabbed, but
also his throat had been slashed an in size one
(24:27):
which adds a completely different level to all of this.
The brutality of this. You can't take the measure of it.
You can, you can in the morgue, obviously, but when
you contextualize these bodies at the scene and you see
the blood deposition and the struggle, maybe broken things, knocked
over furniture, you get the full force of this. And
(24:50):
you know what, Nancy, I'm so disappointed because I don't
know its family will ever truly hear about this. I
don't know that we'll ever know truly what happened that
night in that environment unless he's compelled to allocut.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
But we have to She's not waking up whatever.
Speaker 5 (25:15):
Pretty address of the emergency lead.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
One one to two King Drugs Emergency. Then and now,
as the victims' families reeling over a backdoor deal done
without their consent, where Brian Coburger pleads guilty and escapes
any possibility of the death penalty. Look, people are divided.
(25:39):
Death penalty, no death penalty, but it should at least
go to a jury. The victims' families should at least
know it went to a jury, then win or lose.
At least the state did everything it could possibly do
(26:00):
this as night Marrish scenarios play out about what Idaho
killer Brian Coburger will now do since he has been
spared the death penalty, straight out to renounced psychologists specializing
(26:20):
in forensic psychology, doctor John Adelatory, nothing will preclude him,
you know. Right now, of course, doctor Dilatory, he the
devil is gnashing his teeth and twitching his tail, rubbing
his hands together in glee because tonight a deal with
(26:44):
the devil has been made, a plea deal with Brian Coper.
It tastes like dirt in my mouth right now, dirt.
I never thought the state would do this. I thought
remote possibility they might lose, but they would have gone
(27:07):
down fighting. Sweaty, dirty, bloody, bruised, but fighting. That's what
it means to be a trial lawyer. If you're not
up for it, then get out of the ring, throwing
the towel. Nothing will prohibit Brian Coburger from lounging in
(27:28):
his private cell, riding his online girlfriends, writing his memoirs,
making money off his art. I almost feel like I'm
going to be sick. Explain night marriage scenarios spinning out
(27:50):
in my mind about how he will be cuddled, he
will be treated like a hero behind.
Speaker 9 (28:01):
I'm already sick, Nancy. This was done in the shadows
in the night. I mean for what, for what reason?
I mean, all they got was the death penalty off
the table. That's the only thing that this plea deal
has done. So then why do it at all? If
you're going to do it, you should have done it
at the very, very very beginning of all of this.
But instead, now it seems the prosecution is either too
(28:24):
cheapest or too cheap to actually want to engage in
this trial. And that is the second offense, right, This
is the secondary victimization of this entire family.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
Cheryl McCollum. I hate thinking back on my fiance's martyer.
I don't like it. I try not to do it.
When I go speak or in certain scenarios, I know
I'm going to be asked, and I'm prepared, I'm stealed.
But when I think back, I know the prosecutors did
(28:57):
all they could. I know that, and I knew nothing.
I had never even been in a courtroom until I
went and took that witness stand. But I know they
did all they could, and that is what I promised
every victim I ever represented. I might lose, but you
can know I will do everything I can do for
(29:21):
you and your loved one that you lost. I will
do it all within the bounds of ethics. I will
do it all. Now he Coburger will be immortalized. I mean,
you know what immortalized like Bundy. We're still talking about
(29:46):
Ted Bundy and how brilliant he was. He's a psychopathic killer, perv.
That's what he was. And now Coburger will wear the crown.
Speaker 6 (29:57):
What a disgusting twist if this person just destroyed these
four beautiful children's lives but saved his own. But needs,
as you have said so many times, if you dance
with the devil, he will lead. And trust me, Brian
(30:18):
coberg Or has not done this for any reason but
a self serving one.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
Is she breathing? No? Okay, you know there's the old
phrase there ain't no justice, and that is how I
feel tonight. There ain't no justice, at least for Pete's sake.
Take it to a jury, let them decide. But the
family instead gets this letter quote. We cannot fathom the
toll this case has taken on your family. Really, then,
(30:53):
why did you do a deal behind their backs. They
told you they didn't want this, but you did it anyway.
Brian Cobert now escapes the death penalty in a deal
with the devil, and that devil would be Brian Cooberger
to Philip Dubay, joining me veteran trial lawyer out of
la What many witnesses and victims want in a court
(31:18):
room or answers will never have that because you cannot
force the defendant to elocute speak and explain in court.
You may be able to keep them from taking an
Alfred plea, which means I'll take my punishment, but I'm
never going to say I did it. You can withhold
a plea deal if all they'll plea is by Alfred Hgln,
(31:42):
you will admit you did it in front of the victims.
But you cannot force a defendant to elocute speak explain.
Speaker 7 (31:51):
Depends on the terms of the plea deal. Absolutely you can.
You can absolutely insist as a prosecutor that he take
to the microphone and explain step by step everything that
he did on the night of the homicides. He can
explain what motivated him, how he obtained the deadly weapon,
how he lied and wait and how he then later
(32:12):
disposed of the weapon, and how he then later tried
to reorder a sheath, and how he freaked out when
he found out that DNA was found on that sheet.
It can all come in through an allocution. There is
no prohibition against it, and frankly I don't think that
this is ult from it.
Speaker 1 (32:31):
But if the defendant insists he will not allocute, cannot
be forced to an exactly deal. Like let's just say
a witness gets a subpoena. The witness comes into court.
If the witness refuses to testify, unless they've got a
Fifth Amendment right or some sort or some privilege, they
(32:52):
can be forced to testify, or they can be sent
to jail until they and give them time to think
about it. If the defendant doesn't want to allocute, he
may lose a deal, but he cannot be forced to alocute.
He cannot be forced to explain to anybody anything. And
where this leaves me straight out to doctor John Delatory
(33:14):
is the victims never knowing what happened. I know what
happened when Keith was murdered. It's been all twisted up
in the media, but I know what happened. Keith left
a construction site. He was a geology student. He left
a construction site on a summer job to go get
everybody else's soft drinks because it was a remote site.
(33:37):
And when he pulled back in, he was gunned down.
He was driving the company truck in the boss's truck,
and a disgruntled employee came up and opened fire on
the truck and it killed him. He was shot five
times in the face, of the neck, the back, and
the head. That's what happened. I know that there was
a trial. They will never have that piece to elatory.
(34:00):
They will never such piece as it is. They'll never
have that.
Speaker 9 (34:05):
No, and we're not going to talk about closure. And
you know, all different kinds of experts can all talk
about in cells and all different kinds of nonsense. But
what the family wants is what's actual and factual. They
don't want closures so much as they want the information.
They want to know the answer, why why did you
do this? Why did you do this?
Speaker 4 (34:24):
Then?
Speaker 9 (34:24):
Why did you choose my family? Why did you choose
to do this thing and hurt so many people?
Speaker 1 (34:36):
Crime stories with Nancy Grace and Eerie, A haunting selfie
emerges Oh, there you go. Brian Heiberger, dress like Ted
Buddy mister button down Oxford shirt. I've got a black
hoodie and I don't take freaky selfies in it. Joining
(34:57):
me an All Star panel to Jesseice Scott Morgan, profess Forensics,
Jacksonville State University and Star Body Bags with Joe Scott Morgan.
Joe Scott, I'm stunned. I'm reeling. I feel numb. When
I heard this, I felt like I got kicked in
the stomach. At first I thought it was a joke.
Speaker 4 (35:13):
I felt the same way. I literally I think I
got like five techs simultaneously, including from my mother. This
group of people that he claimed that he was part
of relative to the world of criminology, where he spent
all this time as an undergraduate Masters free level student
studying under people, and now he's gone out to Washington
(35:33):
State and the tool that he created in order to
question people with trying to dig into their lives and
prison relative to thinking about crimes, Nancy, He's now officially
going to be part of that world. And I bet you,
I bet you my next paycheck that upon arrival at
the State penitentiary he's going to have mail. He's going
(35:56):
to have mail from the same group of people that
he claimed that he was going to be a part of.
And they're going to have questionnaires for him. People are
going to want to come and interview them him, and
they're going to do it under the guys, under the
guys of academic research. It's not an enjoyable thing to
be in general pop. But I'm telling you he just
(36:17):
like bt K when he allocuted. You could see in
his eyes that he enjoyed that recalling every single detail. Now,
this guy is going to be given a forum, and
I can tell you there are four voices that are
silenced permanently, and to even maybe a greater extent, his family.
These families voices have been silenced as well because obviously
(36:41):
their requests were falling on death ears.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
And Cheryl, Cheryl McCallum and I have been through a
lot together. We came up together in the system inter City, Atlanta,
one of the murder capitals of the world. Cheryl McCollum,
founder director Callcase Research Institute, and star of a hit
(37:05):
podcast Zone seven. Cheryl think it through. You have a
boy and a girl. I have a boy and a girl. Okay,
follow this through to its logical conclusion. One of them,
and I hate to do this to you, one of
them is murdered brutally in their sleep. You never get answers.
(37:33):
And then spin it out, Cheryl, spin it out, as
I like to say, follow it through to its logical conclusion,
and then you find out you just happen to be
looking online and bam. Notice alert. The killer is going
to be zoomed in to a big conference where he's
(37:59):
a star, and he's going to be explaining the inner
workings of the mind of a killer. He's the star.
He's not getting payment. His payment is going to let's
just pretend his girlfriend that he's made behind bars his
pen pal. He's the star. People applaud for his speech.
(38:27):
I mean, why don't we all just get down, bowed
down to the devil, because that is what is happening,
because nobody had the backbone to take this thing to
trial and try the damn case, win or lose. I
(38:49):
don't get it, can you? Because you know this is
going to happen, right, you know? I mean, I've had
to look at Alex Murdog's shirtless selfies for Pete's sake.
He has a tap behind bars. This will happen. I
don't know how it's gonna happen, just the same way.
Did he get a cell phone behind bars he's not
supposed to have. Sure like that, it's gonna happen, Sheryl,
(39:13):
Let's talk reality.
Speaker 6 (39:15):
Reality is he thinks by taking the death penalty off
the table, he has saved his life.
Speaker 1 (39:20):
Maybe so what that he was a complete loser in
every sense, destroying his own family, his parents, his sisters,
the business, his education. He had everything handed him on
a silver platter, and this is what he does. I
don't care about him. What I'm telling you about the victims' families.
Speaker 6 (39:45):
Correct, And that's my point. They were never going to
get justice even with the death penalty. If he were
put to death, that is not in any way comparable
to what they lost. Is just more death, It's more sadness.
Speaker 1 (39:59):
Tonight, Our prayers with the families of the Idaho murtyr victims.
Nancy Grace signing off, good night friends, m HM.
Crime stories with Nancy Grace breaking news tonight, a deal
with the Devil. Brian Koberger gets a plea deal? What
does it mean? No death penalty? What did the families
(00:23):
of the victims learn? Everything contained in a letter? Are
you kidding me? They find out about the deal with
the devil by letter of emergency.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
You don't know what.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
She's not waking up? They saw some men in their house?
What happened that night at the king Wrote address where
four beautiful University Idaho students were stabbed dead? Now we
will never know the audacity of taking a plea deal
(01:18):
with the devil? Brian Coburger without the families consent, I've
never heard anything like it. With me and all start
panel to make sense of what we are learning right now.
But I got to tell you, I'm crushed. I'm crushed,
(01:43):
and I can only imagine what the victims' families are
going through. You know, I thought I knew it all
about grieving and mourning and suffering when my fiance was
murdered shortly before our wedding. But now that I have
two children, nothing, nothing could be worse than this being
(02:06):
done to your child, and then you have no voice
no voice at all about a plea deal? Is this America?
How has this happened? Does the prosecutor not hear the
crying the whales of the victims' families with me a
(02:34):
loyal and all star panel that has analyzed, examined, investigated
this case from day one straight out to Dave Matc
Crime Stories investigative reporter, Dave, I can't believe this. I
cannot believe this. I feel like I've been kicked in
(02:56):
the stomach and in the teeth at the same time.
I expect shenanigans on the part of the defense. I
expect that there can be one bad apple on the
police force or on the investigation team, but this for
the prosecutors to go behind the victims' families back and
(03:18):
offer a plea deal. To Brian Coburger, what happened, Dave.
Speaker 3 (03:23):
Mack Well, Nancy. It looks like after the defense laid
out their possible alternative suspects idea and the judge rejected it,
that they reached out to the prosecution and said, get
us a deal, and the prosecution we're after consulting with
(03:48):
the families briefly and getting a negative response from at
least two of those families still turned around and, as
you said, made a deal with the devil that even
the best possible outcome for him and for the love.
All I can think of is these families and what
they're dealing with right this minute. Their hearts are broken,
(04:10):
their souls are crushed by a decision that just compounds
the pain.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
Okay, let me understand what you just said, Dave Night.
You said they. Now I believe you and I have
discussed that we use proper names, not he she they Okay,
who reached out to who for a deal?
Speaker 3 (04:28):
Brian Cooberger's defense team reached out to Brian Dick Thompson,
the prosecutor of Leta County, and asked for a deal.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
So what does that mean to me? Every defense attorney
drags up the hall at the courthouse wanting a deal,
a sweet deal, and they start off with, hey, can
I have straight probation? This guy's really he's a really
good guy. Yeah, that's how it always starts, right, And
then they go up and they go up. So what
so what they wanted a deal? That means nothing to me?
(04:59):
Of course they want a deal, that's a given. They
want a deal. I mean, so the defense asked for
a deal, and so what the state just been over
a barrel and said go to it.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
They said, take the death penalty off the table and
we're in. And that is apparently what has happened. The
guy was staring for murders, death penalty, firing squad. We've
done shows about the possible ways of him being taken
out if convicted, and after everything we've seen, it looks
(05:33):
like at the finish line, you're getting ready to go
to trial and they say, take the death penalty off
the table and we'll sign.
Speaker 4 (05:40):
Off on it.
Speaker 3 (05:40):
And that is apparently what happened. I say apparently because
I wasn't there or involved with any of the discussions,
I can only go on what had actually transpired in
the last twenty four hours.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
Everyone, let's take a listen to a little bit of
what we know happened in the hours surrounding the murders.
A four Idaho students, four students dead and now I
got to give this guy three hots and a cot
for the rest of his life. Wow, he has the
(06:11):
opportunity to make book and movie deals, have online girlfriends.
Are you kidding? Listen?
Speaker 5 (06:17):
Tell me exactly.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
What's going on.
Speaker 3 (06:20):
One of our one of the roommates who's passed out
and she's drunk class and she'dn't wake me up.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
Oh and they saw some man in their house house night.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
Yeah, Hian, are you with the patient?
Speaker 5 (06:34):
Okay?
Speaker 6 (06:34):
I need someone to keep the phone, stop passing it around.
Speaker 4 (06:38):
Can I just tell you what happened pretty much?
Speaker 1 (06:40):
What is going on currently as someone passed out right.
Speaker 4 (06:43):
Now, I don't really know what pretty much for him?
Speaker 5 (06:47):
Okay, So I need to know what's going on right
now if someone has passed out.
Speaker 3 (06:50):
Can you find that out, y'all.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
I'll come come on with the new doical check, but
we have to joining me longtime friend and colleague Cold
Case Investigative Research Institute founder and host of a new
hit podcast, Zone seven, Cheryl McCollum joining me. I've never
(07:12):
heard anything like it in a case of this magnitude
or any case, any case at all, to completely disregard
what the victims' families want because you're afraid to go
to trial. Really, he says, if what other reason could
there be to do this to the families of the victims.
(07:35):
How could I mean, if you're not there to help
the crime victims, why are you there. Why don't you
go get a job in a law firm and sit
in the library and research all day. You know, if
you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.
If you can't do battle, get off the battlefield. I'm
just I've stunned Cheryl.
Speaker 3 (07:57):
Nancy.
Speaker 6 (07:57):
Arguably, a quadruple homicide is going to be one of
the most important cases of your career. How does each
family not have a victim advocate in contact with them?
Speaker 1 (08:10):
Put her up? How Cheryl McCallum, frankly, pardon my latin,
but screw their careers. This is not about anybody's career.
Screw that. This is about what is right and what
is wrong and representing the victims. The victims don't want
(08:33):
is so why is it happening? Nancy?
Speaker 6 (08:36):
It's unimaginable. And that's why I'm saying this was not
taken in the breath that it should have been, that
you're going to send somebody an email, That there was
not a call made, that there was not an in
person meeting where everybody is together to understand what the
offer was and whether or not it was going to
be accepted or rejected. As a group, as they this
(09:01):
happened to a group of people. It should be under
every possible consideration that these moms and dads and siblings
have a say here.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
Period.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
The infuriating letter that prosecutors send the families of the
Idaho murder victims informing them that there is a plea
deal and nothing they can do about it. Okay, joining me,
You know him well, Philip Debay, high profile defense attorney
(09:34):
out of LA debate. I'm not arguing with you right
now about the state versus the defense, the evidence. I'm
talking to you about common courtesy right. You cannot enter
a plea deal without your client, the defendant, agreeing, can you.
Speaker 7 (09:52):
No, of course not. It's his right to the plea,
it's his right to the trial that he's giving up,
and it must be voluntary. But what a lot of
people don't know is that the law does not require
the concurrence of victims or victims next of kin in
settlement negotiations or the outcomes of plea deals. There are
to be looped in advised as to what's happening, but
(10:16):
they are not a party to the negotiations or the
ultimate plea agreement. And as alienating as it might sound,
it is simply not required. I think the only reapourse
that voters have right now is the ballot.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
Hey, you know what, Debay, You're right, there's nowhere in
the law that says you have to coordinate your plea
deal with the victims family. Yeah, there's no law saying that.
There's no common law, which is case law, stating that
it's neither statutory in the code, in the written letter
of the law, or in the common law, which is
(10:52):
case law. But in a murder case, I'm asking you
a yes no question debate when you enter a plea
in any felony, name it, I don't care what it is,
any felony, isn't it true? Debate that you must have
(11:14):
the consent, the agreement, the cooperation of your criminal defendant.
That is a yes no debate.
Speaker 4 (11:24):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
So what that means is, while a criminal defendant set
to plead guilty, who is guilty of murder, of any
felony it could be car theft, they must agree and cooperate.
Not so for the violent crime victims family. It doesn't
(11:48):
matter what they think. Have you ever, Chris McDonough, in
your life, heard anything like the stunt, the double deal,
the backstaff, that has gone on in this case, with
the victims' families all opposed to this deal, would you
(12:11):
even consider it? No?
Speaker 5 (12:13):
And in fact, you always want to have the cooperation
of the family as you enter back into that courtroom.
And to add, you know, salt into the wound. How
about restitution for the family.
Speaker 4 (12:29):
You know, I know what.
Speaker 5 (12:31):
I've seen these families so many times. What are they
thinking today? Right, Nancy? How much did my child cost?
Is that the question the prosecution's ask them, And that's
part of the deal. It's just a bad situation all around.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
Now, it's very interesting, guys. That's Chris mcdunna speaking. He
is former homicide detect who has worked over three hundred
hardcore homicides over his twenty five year career plus more.
He is a host of the Interview Room where I
found him on YouTube. To renowned author Howard Bloom joining me,
(13:10):
the author of the definitive work on this case. When
the night comes falling a requiem for the Idaho student murders, Howard,
I'm in shock. I couldn't believe it when I heard
there is a deal and the families disagree. Now, Howard,
I wouldn't have liked it or agreed with it, even
(13:33):
if the families had gone along with this, but I
would bow to their decision because of course I defer
to them. I can't believe the state has done this.
I'm stunned, and I very rarely go against the state
because I believe prosecutors generally have reasons for what they
(13:56):
do that we may not understand. Very often I question, well,
why this count and not that count? Why that strategy?
Why did you say that? But I know that they
know ins and outs of the case that the public
doesn't know, and they may very well have their reasons
for what they do. But I don't see a reason
for this.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
I mean, the state's behavior was at best cavalier and
at worst, I agree with you, reprehensible. But what I
think is interesting is why the fence at this point
decide to make a deal, and when I'm hearing is
about families too. Early on, Coburger had been approached by
his attorneys about making a deal and his mother was
(14:39):
against it, dead set against it. She wanted to come
to trial. Now that the trial was approaching, it looked
like Coburger's parents were going to have to go on
the stand. This was told to him. His mother would
have to talk about the telephone call she got at
six am Idaho time, nine am in Pennsylvania that went
(14:59):
on for about ar hour, just after the murders, and
she would have to say what was going on there?
Does she have any suspicions? His father was going to
have to talk about the cross country trip they took
and what was discussed during that trip, and to protect
his family. When this was presented to Coburger, Coburger finally
was convinced by his lawyers and maybe he should make
(15:19):
the deal. That's what I've been.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
Hearing, Howard Bloom. Do you think I care about that
family that they don't want to take the stand. So
I don't care that Coburger's family doesn't want to take
the stand. Do not care? They still have their son.
They can visit him, he can write books, he can
(15:42):
write letters, he can do FaceTime. He will be in
their lives forever, whether they want him to be or not.
I'm talking about what this has done to the victim's family. Remember, then,
you're raising the question is how did.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
This deal come about? How are they finally able to
make a deal. I think you know the families of
the victims are going to be victims forever. It's a tragedy.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
It's horrible.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
How did this come around that a deal was made?
What did the prosecution see that they were willing to
make this deal? Was it just about saving money or
are they that cynical for the state? Did they actually
think they could lose this case? What was going on here?
I think those are interesting questions too.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
You know, they've got DNA, They've got the defendants d
n A deaxaribo nucleic acid at the crime scene, on
the sheet of the murder weapon underneath a victim, and
they're pleading what they don't want the bother of going
(16:55):
to trial. I just all along. I have been to
them in court. I've been watching everything they do. They
seem like they were in it wholeheartedly. But now at
the eleventh hour, basically on the eve of trial, they
take a plea, a plea that infuriates, that destroys the victims' families. Why.
(17:17):
I cannot think of a single reason why. You know what,
let's have a little refresher joining US doctor Kendall Crown's
chief medical Examiner, Tyrant County. That's fort Worth. Never a
lack of business there. He is the esteemed lecturer at
the Burnett School of Medicine, and he is a star
(17:37):
of podcast Mayhem in the Morgue. Doctor Kendall Crowns, could
you explain how these four young students with their lives
before them at college, Like, you know what I'm going
through right now with the twins trying to get in college.
(17:58):
They're entering their senior year of high school right now.
Which one is the best, which one would help them,
which one would be better for each one of them?
Which one is a safe campus? And when you get
them there, you're like, oh, thank you Lord in heaven.
They're going to have a good life. This is all
I can do to ensure them that they'll be educated
and they'll be able to make their way in the world.
(18:20):
They're not going to be digging a ditch for Pete's sake,
hurting their back, breaking their limbs and they're stabbed dead
in their beds now evidence that one of the girls
tried to run for her life and was stabbed on
the stairwell. What happened physically to these victims, Doctor Kendall Crowns.
Speaker 8 (18:45):
So each of the victims has multiple stab wounds about
their body. And the problem with stab wounds is one
stab wound isn't necessarily going to incapacitate you right away,
so there will be kind of a running fight. The
rules will try and fight back, they may grab the
knife in a last ditch attempt to stop the stabbing,
(19:05):
but they receive multiple stab wounds each and that means
each one of those stab wounds created pain and suffering
that ultimately resulted in their death. And the one that
got up and ran, that meant she was pursued through
the hallway with the fear of this individual coming after
her and then finally getting up on her and then
finishing her off by stabbing her again multiple times. So
(19:27):
every one of them suffered quite a bit because stabbing
cases are usually quite horrific and have a lot of
violence associated with them.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
Daughtor Kimmel Crowns, You really gave me the airbrushed version
of that. A lot of pain, Yeah, I know, there's
a lot of pain. They're stabed dead. They're practically somnambulant,
half asleep, half awake, they can't breathe, their lungs fill
up with blood. There's stab wounds on their legs, all
(19:59):
of this somehow deriving from Coburger's bizarre fetishes about raping
women that are drug passed out or asleep. What was
their deaths? What were their deaths like?
Speaker 8 (20:18):
So their deaths would be basically, they're losing blood over
a period of time. They've got the multiple stab wounds,
They're bleeding internally, their chest cavities are filling up with blood.
If the lungs are involved, which I'm sure there were
several of them that had the lungs involved, they're coughing
up blood reswallowing it as they're slowly slipping into unconsciousness.
(20:39):
In individuals where the chest cavity is compromised, that it'll
fill up with blood and it'll make it hard to
breathe and essentially you're drowning in your own blood at
that moment.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
Doctor Kimmel Crown's you're absolutely correct, And I hope that
when you were teaching all of those medical students at
the Burnett School of Medicine that you explain to them
what crime victims lived through at the time of their death.
And it's not all clinical lives were snuffed out that
(21:16):
night and for what to fulfill Brian Coburger's weird fantasies.
How do we know about them? Because they were found
on a search engine raping women asleep, passed out, drugged, incapacitated.
(21:44):
Crime stories with Nancy Grace joining me now. Joseph Scott Morgan,
Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My
Feet on Amazon and a hit series Body Bags with
Joe Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, everything that doctor Kendall Crowns
(22:07):
said is true and more. What happened that night, Joe Scott.
Speaker 4 (22:15):
This individual gained access to this house, Nancy, I truly
believe in my heart of hearts, and no one will
ever convince me otherwise that he laid in wait. He
had observed this house, he looked for points of entry,
and then, for whatever reason, at that particular time, immediately
after Xanna had collected that food order, he decided to
(22:39):
make entry, and he was purposed to do what he did,
ascending I believe to that top floor. First went in
and attacked those two girls in that room. He attacked
one to the point where she was deceased at the
(23:00):
door and was blocking the ability for the other young
lady to egress out of that room. So he's got
them essentially trapped in there, and he's moving back and
forth between them, perhaps wielding this knife. And this knife,
for folks that haven't haven't been around a k bar
(23:21):
is very robust. I mean, it is a killing knife.
As a matter of fact, developed by the Marine Corps.
Nancy Day actually had a field manual that taught combat
tactics in what CQB close quarter combat with this knife,
and this is the weapon of choice here allegedly that
he wielded against both of them. One of the newest
(23:43):
turns in this whole thing back to Xana is that
you know, we were told wrongly by the corner. I
think two days afterwards she gave a press conference or
spoke to a reporter where she said that they all
appeared to be sleep in the bed. No, this was
a dynamic situation. Something drew or upstairs. And if now
(24:06):
we are to believe what happens, Xanna was attacked on
that staircase, and of course we know that her boyfriend
Ethan downstairs was equally attacked. We had heard or report
earlier that not only may he have been stabbed, but
also his throat had been slashed an in size one
(24:27):
which adds a completely different level to all of this.
The brutality of this. You can't take the measure of it.
You can, you can in the morgue, obviously, but when
you contextualize these bodies at the scene and you see
the blood deposition and the struggle, maybe broken things, knocked
over furniture, you get the full force of this. And
(24:50):
you know what, Nancy, I'm so disappointed because I don't
know its family will ever truly hear about this. I
don't know that we'll ever know truly what happened that
night in that environment unless he's compelled to allocut.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
But we have to She's not waking up whatever.
Speaker 5 (25:15):
Pretty address of the emergency lead.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
One one to two King Drugs Emergency. Then and now,
as the victims' families reeling over a backdoor deal done
without their consent, where Brian Coburger pleads guilty and escapes
any possibility of the death penalty. Look, people are divided.
(25:39):
Death penalty, no death penalty, but it should at least
go to a jury. The victims' families should at least
know it went to a jury, then win or lose.
At least the state did everything it could possibly do
(26:00):
this as night Marrish scenarios play out about what Idaho
killer Brian Coburger will now do since he has been
spared the death penalty, straight out to renounced psychologists specializing
(26:20):
in forensic psychology, doctor John Adelatory, nothing will preclude him,
you know. Right now, of course, doctor Dilatory, he the
devil is gnashing his teeth and twitching his tail, rubbing
his hands together in glee because tonight a deal with
(26:44):
the devil has been made, a plea deal with Brian Coper.
It tastes like dirt in my mouth right now, dirt.
I never thought the state would do this. I thought
remote possibility they might lose, but they would have gone
(27:07):
down fighting. Sweaty, dirty, bloody, bruised, but fighting. That's what
it means to be a trial lawyer. If you're not
up for it, then get out of the ring, throwing
the towel. Nothing will prohibit Brian Coburger from lounging in
(27:28):
his private cell, riding his online girlfriends, writing his memoirs,
making money off his art. I almost feel like I'm
going to be sick. Explain night marriage scenarios spinning out
(27:50):
in my mind about how he will be cuddled, he
will be treated like a hero behind.
Speaker 9 (28:01):
I'm already sick, Nancy. This was done in the shadows
in the night. I mean for what, for what reason?
I mean, all they got was the death penalty off
the table. That's the only thing that this plea deal
has done. So then why do it at all? If
you're going to do it, you should have done it
at the very, very very beginning of all of this.
But instead, now it seems the prosecution is either too
(28:24):
cheapest or too cheap to actually want to engage in
this trial. And that is the second offense, right, This
is the secondary victimization of this entire family.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
Cheryl McCollum. I hate thinking back on my fiance's martyer.
I don't like it. I try not to do it.
When I go speak or in certain scenarios, I know
I'm going to be asked, and I'm prepared, I'm stealed.
But when I think back, I know the prosecutors did
(28:57):
all they could. I know that, and I knew nothing.
I had never even been in a courtroom until I
went and took that witness stand. But I know they
did all they could, and that is what I promised
every victim I ever represented. I might lose, but you
can know I will do everything I can do for
(29:21):
you and your loved one that you lost. I will
do it all within the bounds of ethics. I will
do it all. Now he Coburger will be immortalized. I mean,
you know what immortalized like Bundy. We're still talking about
(29:46):
Ted Bundy and how brilliant he was. He's a psychopathic killer, perv.
That's what he was. And now Coburger will wear the crown.
Speaker 6 (29:57):
What a disgusting twist if this person just destroyed these
four beautiful children's lives but saved his own. But needs,
as you have said so many times, if you dance
with the devil, he will lead. And trust me, Brian
(30:18):
coberg Or has not done this for any reason but
a self serving one.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
Is she breathing? No? Okay, you know there's the old
phrase there ain't no justice, and that is how I
feel tonight. There ain't no justice, at least for Pete's sake.
Take it to a jury, let them decide. But the
family instead gets this letter quote. We cannot fathom the
toll this case has taken on your family. Really, then,
(30:53):
why did you do a deal behind their backs. They
told you they didn't want this, but you did it anyway.
Brian Cobert now escapes the death penalty in a deal
with the devil, and that devil would be Brian Cooberger
to Philip Dubay, joining me veteran trial lawyer out of
la What many witnesses and victims want in a court
(31:18):
room or answers will never have that because you cannot
force the defendant to elocute speak and explain in court.
You may be able to keep them from taking an
Alfred plea, which means I'll take my punishment, but I'm
never going to say I did it. You can withhold
a plea deal if all they'll plea is by Alfred Hgln,
(31:42):
you will admit you did it in front of the victims.
But you cannot force a defendant to elocute speak explain.
Speaker 7 (31:51):
Depends on the terms of the plea deal. Absolutely you can.
You can absolutely insist as a prosecutor that he take
to the microphone and explain step by step everything that
he did on the night of the homicides. He can
explain what motivated him, how he obtained the deadly weapon,
how he lied and wait and how he then later
(32:12):
disposed of the weapon, and how he then later tried
to reorder a sheath, and how he freaked out when
he found out that DNA was found on that sheet.
It can all come in through an allocution. There is
no prohibition against it, and frankly I don't think that
this is ult from it.
Speaker 1 (32:31):
But if the defendant insists he will not allocute, cannot
be forced to an exactly deal. Like let's just say
a witness gets a subpoena. The witness comes into court.
If the witness refuses to testify, unless they've got a
Fifth Amendment right or some sort or some privilege, they
(32:52):
can be forced to testify, or they can be sent
to jail until they and give them time to think
about it. If the defendant doesn't want to allocute, he
may lose a deal, but he cannot be forced to alocute.
He cannot be forced to explain to anybody anything. And
where this leaves me straight out to doctor John Delatory
(33:14):
is the victims never knowing what happened. I know what
happened when Keith was murdered. It's been all twisted up
in the media, but I know what happened. Keith left
a construction site. He was a geology student. He left
a construction site on a summer job to go get
everybody else's soft drinks because it was a remote site.
(33:37):
And when he pulled back in, he was gunned down.
He was driving the company truck in the boss's truck,
and a disgruntled employee came up and opened fire on
the truck and it killed him. He was shot five
times in the face, of the neck, the back, and
the head. That's what happened. I know that there was
a trial. They will never have that piece to elatory.
(34:00):
They will never such piece as it is. They'll never
have that.
Speaker 9 (34:05):
No, and we're not going to talk about closure. And
you know, all different kinds of experts can all talk
about in cells and all different kinds of nonsense. But
what the family wants is what's actual and factual. They
don't want closures so much as they want the information.
They want to know the answer, why why did you
do this? Why did you do this?
Speaker 4 (34:24):
Then?
Speaker 9 (34:24):
Why did you choose my family? Why did you choose
to do this thing and hurt so many people?
Speaker 1 (34:36):
Crime stories with Nancy Grace and Eerie, A haunting selfie
emerges Oh, there you go. Brian Heiberger, dress like Ted
Buddy mister button down Oxford shirt. I've got a black
hoodie and I don't take freaky selfies in it. Joining
(34:57):
me an All Star panel to Jesseice Scott Morgan, profess Forensics,
Jacksonville State University and Star Body Bags with Joe Scott Morgan.
Joe Scott, I'm stunned. I'm reeling. I feel numb. When
I heard this, I felt like I got kicked in
the stomach. At first I thought it was a joke.
Speaker 4 (35:13):
I felt the same way. I literally I think I
got like five techs simultaneously, including from my mother. This
group of people that he claimed that he was part
of relative to the world of criminology, where he spent
all this time as an undergraduate Masters free level student
studying under people, and now he's gone out to Washington
(35:33):
State and the tool that he created in order to
question people with trying to dig into their lives and
prison relative to thinking about crimes, Nancy, He's now officially
going to be part of that world. And I bet you,
I bet you my next paycheck that upon arrival at
the State penitentiary he's going to have mail. He's going
(35:56):
to have mail from the same group of people that
he claimed that he was going to be a part of.
And they're going to have questionnaires for him. People are
going to want to come and interview them him, and
they're going to do it under the guys, under the
guys of academic research. It's not an enjoyable thing to
be in general pop. But I'm telling you he just
(36:17):
like bt K when he allocuted. You could see in
his eyes that he enjoyed that recalling every single detail. Now,
this guy is going to be given a forum, and
I can tell you there are four voices that are
silenced permanently, and to even maybe a greater extent, his family.
These families voices have been silenced as well because obviously
(36:41):
their requests were falling on death ears.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
And Cheryl, Cheryl McCallum and I have been through a
lot together. We came up together in the system inter City, Atlanta,
one of the murder capitals of the world. Cheryl McCollum,
founder director Callcase Research Institute, and star of a hit
(37:05):
podcast Zone seven. Cheryl think it through. You have a
boy and a girl. I have a boy and a girl. Okay,
follow this through to its logical conclusion. One of them,
and I hate to do this to you, one of
them is murdered brutally in their sleep. You never get answers.
(37:33):
And then spin it out, Cheryl, spin it out, as
I like to say, follow it through to its logical conclusion,
and then you find out you just happen to be
looking online and bam. Notice alert. The killer is going
to be zoomed in to a big conference where he's
(37:59):
a star, and he's going to be explaining the inner
workings of the mind of a killer. He's the star.
He's not getting payment. His payment is going to let's
just pretend his girlfriend that he's made behind bars his
pen pal. He's the star. People applaud for his speech.
(38:27):
I mean, why don't we all just get down, bowed
down to the devil, because that is what is happening,
because nobody had the backbone to take this thing to
trial and try the damn case, win or lose. I
(38:49):
don't get it, can you? Because you know this is
going to happen, right, you know? I mean, I've had
to look at Alex Murdog's shirtless selfies for Pete's sake.
He has a tap behind bars. This will happen. I
don't know how it's gonna happen, just the same way.
Did he get a cell phone behind bars he's not
supposed to have. Sure like that, it's gonna happen, Sheryl,
(39:13):
Let's talk reality.
Speaker 6 (39:15):
Reality is he thinks by taking the death penalty off
the table, he has saved his life.
Speaker 1 (39:20):
Maybe so what that he was a complete loser in
every sense, destroying his own family, his parents, his sisters,
the business, his education. He had everything handed him on
a silver platter, and this is what he does. I
don't care about him. What I'm telling you about the victims' families.
Speaker 6 (39:45):
Correct, And that's my point. They were never going to
get justice even with the death penalty. If he were
put to death, that is not in any way comparable
to what they lost. Is just more death, It's more sadness.
Speaker 1 (39:59):
Tonight, Our prayers with the families of the Idaho murtyr victims.
Nancy Grace signing off, good night friends, m HM.
Host
Nancy Grace
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