August 6, 2024 • 40 mins
After several pre-trial hearings, it seems that everyone connected to the murders of Abigail Williams and Libby German is absolutely certain of who killed the girls, but they cannot agree on who that person is. Richard Allen is set to stand trial on October 15th, but theories that an Odinist cult, sex traffickers, or a now-dead violent man attacked the girls are muddying the waters.
Testimony during the hearings confirms several details about the crime scene. Both Abby and Libby’s throats are cut, and the girls bodies are covered with branches. Libby is found completely nude, and Abby is dressed in both hers and some of Libby’s clothing. Aside from the neck area, the clothing found on Abby is mostly clean.
Prosecutor Nicholas McLeland believes the case against Richard Allen, 51, is air tight, after discovering over 60 recorded confessions by the accused killer in jail phone calls to his wife and mother. McLeland says just over a year ago, Allen began speaking about the murders in very specific detail with almost anyone who would listen. A fellow inmate even testifies that Allen revealed to him that he killed the girls with a box cutter, which Allen later disposed of in a CVS dumpster.
However, defense attorney Bradley Rozzi argues that Allen’s numerous confessions are not valid and should not be allowed into evidence. Rozzi argues that Allen’s mental state is degrading due to near constant solitary confinement, fueling his client’s admissions of guilt. Rozzi goes on to show the details Allen describes are inaccurate. In one recording, Allen tearfully expresses regret for molesting the girls, but their autopsies do not show any signs of rape or sexual abuse.
On the witness stand, Dr. Monica Wala, an Indiana Department of Corrections psychologist treating Richard Allen, claims that she noticed the accused killer spiraling just before the confessions began. Walla testifies that staff is providing Allen anti-psychotic medication at least once a month.
While Special Judge Fran Gull has yet to rule on the admissibility of Richard Allen’s many confessions, testimony did sway her to vacate a “safekeeping” order and remove Allen from the Westville Correctional Facility. Allen will instead be held at the Cass County Jail for the remainder of his pre-trial lock up.
JOINING NANCY GRACE TODAY:
- Rich Schoenstein - Trial Attorney and partner with Tarter Krinsky & Drogin Twitter: @LawfulRiches
- Chris McDonough - Director at the Cold Case Foundation, Former Homicide Detective, https://www.coldcasefoundation.org/chris-mcdonough---law-enforcement-relations.html, Host of YouTube channel, The Interview Room.
- Dr. Mark Mirabello - Former Professor of History at Shawnee State University, Author: “The Odin Brotherhood”, https://www.markmirabello.com
- Joseph Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet", Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan", @JoScottForensic
- Susan Hendricks - Journalist, Author: “Down the Hill: My Descent into the Double Murder in Delphi’, IG @susan_hendricks X @SusanHendicks
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Delphi murder suspect is claiming these two little girls, Abby
and Libby, ages thirteen and fourteen, were murdered by a
pagan cult. This as dreams of evidence is pouring from
the witness stand. But what will be allowed in front
of a jury? I'm Nancy Grace, this is crime Stories.
(00:28):
Thank you for being with us.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Who murdered Abigail and Liberty? A suspect is called on
video with his menacing instructions down the hill.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
So much happening in a court of law, But what
will the jury be allowed to hear?
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Something really doesn't seem.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Right that we know all of this evidence, but the
jury may never know it.
Speaker 3 (00:59):
For instance, testimony during the hearings confirmed several details about
the crime scene. Both Abby and Libby's throats are cut
and the girl's bodies are covered with branches. Libby is
found completely nude, and Abby is dressed in both hers
and some of Libby's clothing. Aside from the neck area,
the clothing found on Abby is mostly clean.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Okay, I'm supposed to believe a pagan cult has as
responsibility for the brutal murders of two little girls. One
I believe naked, the other one had on the other's clothing.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Hold on, let's get the facts straight.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Joining me an all star panel to make sense of
what we know right now and living through the entire
probative hearing, which means evidence pouring from the witness stand
Susan Hendrick's well known investigative reporter, journalist and author of
Down the Hill, My Descent into the double Murder in Delphi. Susan,
(02:00):
thank you for being with us. There's so much happening.
I hate to get bogged down in the whole pagan
cult did it. But the reality is the defense is
naming actual names as to who they believe are the
real murderers connected to this pagan cult.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
What about it?
Speaker 4 (02:21):
I believe Nancy, and it's great to be on that.
The defense has always tried to establish that that is
who they believed killed Abby and libbyan Odus cult. So
it was mentioned in that Frank's hearing. It disguised in
my opinion, as of Frank's hearing, but really to put
out there what they believed happened on that day in
(02:42):
twenty seventeen.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
You're like a locomotive right now, you're steaming for But
you're carrying.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
A payload so much evidence.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
You know, I taught English briefly while I was waiting
to get into law school.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
I need to dissect, you know, like you.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Put the verb here and the adjective here, and you
just said a lot and we're like ten seconds into
our program.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
Hold on, So, first of all, you said a frank's hearing.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
Now, in every jurisdiction, unless you're talking about federal law,
states ascribe a different name to their hearing. Now, in
this particular jurisdiction, isn't a frank hearing a claim that
law enforcement lied in some aspect, be it the problem
will cause search warrant or resta warrant, or some other
(03:27):
aspect of the case.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
Isn't that what a frank's hearing is in that jurisdiction?
Speaker 4 (03:31):
Absolutely, Nancy, I'm glad you stopped me because there is
so much information here. I'm used to just saying it
the Frank's hearing. What they were alleging was that Sheriff
Liggett lied in what he thought was at Richard Allen's
home in order to get that search warrant. So the
attorneys are trying to throw.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Out Wait, wait, wait, what search warrant? There's so many.
So the defense is claiming we have to have a
Frank's hearing because hey, Sheriff Liggett. Now, okay, I'm not
saying the sheriff did or did not lie, but you're
also say to hey, with that, that was just a
pretense to try to get the defense theory out there. Okay,
(04:11):
what are they claiming Liggot lied about.
Speaker 4 (04:15):
Saying that he specifically had more evidence than he did.
It wasn't really clear why they thought he was lying.
What they did say was, hey, we need a hearing,
we want it tossed out. But Nancy, you.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
Have sat through days and days of evidence and they
never made it clear what Leggott lied about the sheriff.
Speaker 4 (04:38):
Really the Frank's Hearing was one hundred and thirty six pages.
So in that convoluted memo with a lot of grammatical mistakes,
was why Liggot lied. And I remember getting that. I
was at Crime Connor hearing about it first, and I
was with the family members there, and I didn't read
(05:00):
the entire memo because to me, it was the defense's
way of having the media read it.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Well, wait a minute, whether you look, you did not
fight your way onto Lauri review at law school. Okay,
you don't have to tell me what Sam. I thought
it was one hundred and thirty nine pages.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
But that said, you heard the hearing.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Did they ever come forward the defense and claim what
Leiggott allegedly lied about? I mean, because I've never known
you to be wrong on a fact, Susan ever, so
if they didn't give a clear picture about what the
Franks claim is after that many days of testimony, Okay,
let's just suffice to say they're claiming Ligot lied about
(05:45):
a warrant, which warrant a rest or search search search.
Speaker 4 (05:49):
Of what of Richard Allen's home, which they did end
up searching.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
Because there were so many search warrants, I got to
make sure which one is in jeopardy over an alleged
lie by the sheriff.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
Okay, hold on just a moment.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
I'm going to get into the meat of this, the
claim that Norse god worshipers really kill the girls.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
And everything else's happening in the courtroom.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
But rich Schownstein is joining me, a veteran trial lawyer
partner with Tartar, Krinsky and Drogan. Okay, I don't like
that name because your name is not the lead name.
I don't like that, and you need to fix that,
Rich Schoenstein. Did you just hear Susan Hendrick say it
was full of grammatical errors. That may be a small
(06:29):
and consequential detail to a lot of people, but I
can tell you this after trying so many cases, I've
lost count and handling literally about ten thousand felonies.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
I know that's hard to believe, but think about it.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
Over ten plus years in a felony courtroom, and you
get about one hundred new cases a week added up.
Those cases have to be resolved, whether it's a plea
or a trial. That said, when I get a brief
and the first thing I say, see is a lot
of grammatical errors, I'm like, if they didn't even think
(07:04):
to do a word check, a spell check and they
can't spell, I doubt anything in here is going to
really knock me out. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (07:14):
Well, especially today when you know that spell checks and
grammar checks as you type. It's not like the old
days when you and I began practicing, where you'd have
to type something and then get proof readers on it.
The machine proofs it while you go. So if it's
full of mistakes, if it's full of grammatical mistakes, if
it doesn't make sense, if it doesn't look good, you're
(07:36):
going to be less inclined to buy the arguments in it.
Speaker 6 (07:38):
That's just the bobble.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Exactly, and the fact that Susan Hendrix said full of
grammatical errors, like she and I are big on grammar
and grammatical errors and improper english Jackie. So that said,
if that's the first thing you notice the rest of it,
you're not going to be impressed.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
Now can we get to the act evidence. But you
know one more thing, Susan Henders, I just want to
tell you.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
You remember the other day you were sitting in the
courtroom with the victim's family and Richard Allen, the double
murder suspect who I believe stripped both little girls before
he killed them, and god only.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
Knows what else.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
You mentioned that he kept turning around and glaring at
you and the victim's family, and you and I talked
about what that meant. People online went bizarre, saying, why
are you focusing on the guy staring at Susan Hendricks
and the family. That doesn't matter, Actually it does matter.
(08:37):
But now get ready because we're going to get it
up the tailpipe about talking about grammar, So just go
ahead and buckle your seatbelt.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Anyway, back to the evidence Listen.
Speaker 7 (08:47):
Richard Allen's defense is also fighting to have their third
party culprit defense heard by the jury. Allen's attorneys insist
that law enforcement did not fully investigate five men bound
together by a Rushville Odinis club. Their theory stems from
a twelve page filing by Trooper Kevin Murphy that the
defense refers to as the Odin Report.
Speaker 3 (09:07):
The defense hires non Pearl Mutter, an expert on ritualistic crimes.
Pearl Mutter testifies that the crime scene is textbook. Pearl
Mutter sees ruines on the sticks laid on top of
Abby and Libby's bodies and points out a blood smear
on a tree in the shape of the letter F,
explaining that it is significant to Odin Knight's.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Okay, I'm going to need help getting through this because
all I can envision are these two little girls, Abby
and Libby dead. Susan Hendricks hold on, Susan one moment.
I'm going to come back to you about what in
the evidence suggests. The defense theory that Accult did this
(09:52):
and then I'm going to go to doctor Mark Mirabello,
former professor History, Shawnee State University and author of The
Odin Brotherhood. Okay, if you want to know more about that,
going to Markmirabello dot com The Odin Brotherhood. Okay, Before
(10:13):
I get to that, Joe Scott Morgan is with us
along with Chris McDonough. Chris mcdonnad director Cold Case Foundation,
former homicide detective about three hundred death scenes homicides. To
his credit, he is at Colcasefoundation dot org. I found
him on the interview room on YouTube. Before I go
to him to analyze what Joe Scott's about to say,
(10:37):
Joe Scott Morgan, Joseph Sorry.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
Joe Scott.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of
Blood Beneath My Feet, I'm waiting for the second book,
It Hasn't Happened, and host of a hit series Body
Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, could you please
describe as the defense is twitching its tail and gnashing
(11:03):
its teeth, coming up with everybody and their sister that
they can blame the murders on. Could you just give
me a little reality check, Joe Scott and explain how
these girls. I just got chills on my arms because
when I said these girls, I thought.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
About my girl at my boy. How these girls were
found lying out in the open dead.
Speaker 8 (11:30):
Explain it in a very isolated area immediately adjacent to
this body of water, that is that has flown, that
flows beneath this bridge. It's densely wooded. However, there were
no leaves on the tree trees at this point in time.
Remember this is back in the early spring or just
(11:51):
heading into spring, and they are, in my opinion, from
what I'm understanding, essentially pose the bodies have been stripped.
And you've got this event that has occurred where they
are alleging that one of the bodies has been redressed
with the clothing of another.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
Okay, stop right there, Joe Scotty.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
You and I are used to looking at dead bodies,
were used to analyzing them, every little thing about them,
the actual angle of a bullet as it travels through
the body, which organs were decimated, trace evidence, touch evidence,
fiber evidence, hair.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
You name it. Can we just pause for a moment.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
And think about the person that stripped these little girls
and then redressed one of them, of course, confusing the clothing.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
Could you get through that one more time?
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Out there on the ground in the woods, the little
girls stripped, I guess pre mortem.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
And then do you remember Ted Bundy? Of course you
do remember there or there's.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
Proof that he would actually take some of the victim's
bodies and bathe them in a bathtub and fix their
hair and makeup. But just think about the ritualistic redressing.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
The idiot, of course.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Used the wrong clothes, but redressing a did child's body.
I mean, Joe Scott, we have to slow down and
think about these facts.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
You and I just like spit it out.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
And it's better for me that way, because when I
slow down to think about the facts, I can't sleep
at night, I don't feel like eating, I want to cry.
But these are the facts and we can't turn away
from it.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Joe Scott.
Speaker 8 (13:58):
Yeah, And when you think about this idea of redressing,
it's to my way of thinking, at least, it's you have.
You know, people throw around the term objectification all the time.
This is literally pure objectification, where you're talking about you
have dehumanized the individual. They're treated like dolls at this
(14:18):
point in time so that you can play dress up
with them in some kind of twisted manner. I've actually
been involved in a series of serial killings that I've
investigated back in the early part of my career, where
an individual would do the same thing, and it's it
is evidence of kind of a demented mind that does this,
(14:40):
that engages in almost this necrophilic behavior.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
Chilling details emerged during a three day hearing for the
Delphi murders.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
Evidence pouring from the witness stand. But this is what
has always driven me crazy, among so many things, is
that we on the outside looking in will know more
of the evidence than the actual jury will ever know,
because so much of this evidence is being ruled out
with me an all star panel, and we're stuck on
(15:19):
the theory that paganists that worship Norse gods actually murdered
Abby and Libby. Joseph Scott Morgan death investigator, and I
were just describing how the girls were completely naked and
then the killer re dressed one of them, and I'm
thinking about the mind of someone that would so desecrate
(15:43):
a little girl in this manner. But we may think
it's outlandish, we may think it's far fast it is.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
That's why we think that. But if the defense can
snag one.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
Juror and cause a mische, that's a huge victory for them,
just one gurrr that buys into this crazy zany thing. Now,
I want you to listen to how they're taking a
zany claim that worshippers of the Norse gods. I'm talking
about Thor and Odin. You know about the Valkyrie, the
(16:18):
women warriors who fly through the sky, and even if
they're killed in battle in this pretend world, they arise
to fight the next day. Again, that's what they believe. Okay,
how can that be translated into a real life defense?
Speaker 1 (16:36):
Listen.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
The defense argues that Brad Holder, the father of Abbey's
boyfriend and a known odinist, was ruled out as a
suspect too quickly. The defense alleges Holder posted several eerie
photos on Facebook in the days after the murders, including
one that appears to mimic the crime scene. Court documents
say the pictures show two girls lying in the woods
(16:57):
in positions similar to how Abby and Libby these bodies
were discovered. Holder also posts runes and a photo with
the letter F painted on a tree.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
Before I can even formulate my next question to Susan Hendricks,
a investigated journalist and author, I need to get some facts.
Doctor Mark Mirabello is joining us, who has now shot
to fame because of the book The odin Brotherhood that
he wrote before any of us had even heard of Odinism.
(17:29):
G How did we miss that Odinism? He had already
written a book, doctor Mark Mirabello. So great to have
you with us. Now the defense is claiming that Odinist
actually murdered Libby and Abby, and they're pointing toward what
they claim are runs, which I believe are rocks, but
(17:52):
I'm not really sure, lying on the body or around
the body?
Speaker 1 (17:58):
What are runs?
Speaker 2 (18:00):
What do they have to do with the pagan religion
of Aganism?
Speaker 9 (18:06):
By the way, several points. First, I'm now Professor emeritus,
which is retired in a great honor. Now we get
answering your question. The Vikings used the rooms, and oddly
enough they seem to resemble a trust in writing style
from northern Italy. We're not certain of the origin, but
the ruins were designed to be carved into wood, bone
(18:28):
and stone. Now, because the Vikings were overwhelmingly illiterate, like
a lot of the literate people, they thought writing was magical.
And by the way, I should mention very clearly, writing
is magical. With writing and communicate with the future, you
can read the thoughts of the past. So it really
is magical. And in fact, in many cultures, like in
(18:51):
ancient Egypt, writing something can cause magical acts to occur.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
Doctor, they claim that writing is magical to pretend I
didn't we hear that.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
Okay, oh it is.
Speaker 6 (19:04):
Who killed?
Speaker 1 (19:05):
Go ahead the rings.
Speaker 9 (19:06):
Okay, Now, remember I'm a specialist and occultism and also matriical.
Speaker 6 (19:10):
Lord.
Speaker 9 (19:10):
So but let's get back to the ruins and quickly,
let me just specify that this is not a human sacrifice.
I mean, anyone who knows anything about the history of
religion understands this is not a human sacrifice. The whole
point of human sacrifice, and I remember it was on
(19:32):
your show last time I made this point I won't
repeat myself, is a ritualized killing. It's a what's called
a comedy of innocence where you pretend you're not really
killing someone a simple murder. You're killing someone, you're cutting
the throat whatever, shooting them. A ritual sacrifice is essentially
you're pretending you're not. And the whole purpose of ritual
(19:56):
sacrifice is to either earn the favor of the gods,
give gratitude a tone for some kind of a fence.
For example, ancient Greeks when they killed someone would dip
their hands, even soldiers, in a pig's blood that they
had sacrificed to purify them. They couldn't go back in
the temples. So again the sacrifice of purpose, and the
(20:20):
important part is the ritual. You don't do this in
the middle of nowhere and start spreading sticks on the
bodies or putting an f on a tree. You would
if this were really a sacrifice. The felon would bring
the little girls to a location and he would act
out a ritual, kind of like the way if you've
(20:42):
ever seen the Dexter show, the serial killer, how he
acts out a ritual when he kills the serial killers.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
Right, see see what you just said. I hope the
state is listening. Who doesn't know about Dexter. By the way,
there's a reboot just so you know. Let me take
this in just.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
For a moment, because formulating an opening statement and a
closing statement and in this case, the state will have
the final closing statement, which is very, very.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
If critical for the state.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
It will be the last words the jury hears before
jury instructions, before they go deliberate. And this is critical
because see I'm hanging on you every word. This could
mean justice or injustice for the families of Abby and Libby.
And I'm telling you right now, doctor Mirabello, that this
(21:31):
is the direction in which.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
The defense is going. Why because they've already put it
out there. They're kind of stuck with it. Now.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
Now hold on, when you compared it to Dexter, Now
see that's something a jury and myself we can understand.
I'm going to circle back to you, Joe Scott Morgan
on all the Latin mumbo jumbo you throw out there,
and you expect all of us to understand it. We're
not medical doctrines, show Scott, we're not death investigators. But
(21:59):
what he just said, what he just said, if you
tell a jury and you compare to like Dexter, someone
that most people can relate to have seen it, and
remember how he just got lays out plastic, surrounds himself
with plastic, and only uses certain tools and has a
(22:21):
ritual where he puts the victim's pictures up all around
the defendant, and the defendant wakes up and sees what
he has done before Dexter kills him. That's a ritual
and that's something Givars can latch onto.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
To further Mirabello's assertion that this was no ritual.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
He basically molested and murdered two little girls in the woods.
Speaker 1 (22:44):
That's what happened. Get it.
Speaker 8 (22:46):
Yeah, let me tell you something. I'm old enough to
remember when every damn case out there was referred to
as a ritualistic killing. When I started working back in
the eighties, everything was pushed off on ritualism. There was
a safe and this around every corner. Need need I
remind people of the McMartin case preschool case out in California.
(23:07):
That was one of the biggest frauds that was ever
foisted on the American public. And I think we're going
down that road here, Nancy. You know, when you think
about it, if you're talking about an individual that is
out in the woods, there's going to be a very
specific area. If this is a ritualized event, there will
(23:28):
be an area where they do this all the time.
In this in this little area. It's ridiculous.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
We have a symbol today, the best and the brightest,
to take apart what we're learning from Susan Hendrick's investigative
journalist and author of an incredible book, Down the Hill,
My Descent into the Double Murder in Delphi. Okay, wait, wait,
I want to go back to Mirabello. Doctor Mark Mirabello literally.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
Wrote the book on the Odin brotherhood.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
As fantastical as this defensive theory may sound, they're actually attaching.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
It to real people.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
Of just one gr Ard gets sucked in the state
is screwed technical legal term.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
Listen.
Speaker 10 (24:11):
The defense team refers back to Trooper Kevin Murphy's investigation,
during which he learned that Rushville odinist Elvis Fields allegedly
described the crime scene in detail to his sister. Murphy
writes that when questioned about that admission, Fields denies any
involvement in the murders, but strangely asks if he will
be in trouble if his spit is found on the
(24:32):
girl's bodies. Fields also has ties to Brad Holder, frequently
reposting or copying Holder's Facebook posts.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
Oh Dear Lord in Heaven as a prosecutor. That's what
I don't want to hear, okay.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
But you have to hear it, and you've got to
confront it in your opening statement. Susan Hendrix helped me.
The defense is going to claim, under the odness theory
that a Rushville oldness l this feels described the crime
scene in detail to his sister.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
Now I can't.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
I can explain that enough details had leaked out in
the local area and sometimes in the press that he
could latch onto those details and then regurgitate him. You
regurgitate them to his sister, but I'm not sure what
about him asking well, I be in trouble if my
spit is on the girls?
Speaker 1 (25:27):
Oh yeah, where?
Speaker 4 (25:28):
And the investigator Nancy Kevin Murphy, he was on the
stand and by the way, he broke down in tears
when seeing the crime scene photos that were handed to him,
breaking down in tears and saying yes. I interviewed Elvis Fields.
I pulled him up to his house. He came to
my adoor and asked that question, and the former Indiana
State Police officer now retired, said, I made a mistake.
I should have had lunch with him or talked more
(25:51):
about what he was talking about. But here's what stands
out to me. They all have alibis the cross examination of.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
The mast q in heaven, I don't care if he
asked about a spit in his fingerprints. He has an alibi.
That's all I need to hear. Are you sure this
guy who is an oldinist? Where do these people come from?
Speaker 1 (26:12):
An oldist?
Speaker 2 (26:12):
Elvis Feels asks, hey, well, I'll be in trouble if
my spits on the dead girl's body.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
Uh yeah, Are you telling me he has an alibi?
Speaker 6 (26:22):
Yes?
Speaker 4 (26:23):
No, yes, And Brad Holder absolutely does. His ex wife
was on the stand saying, look, he did mention the
girls and mentioned that killing and the murders. But the
cross examination was huge. Nancy, drink you from the higher.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
Fire hydrant, Susan Hendricks too much.
Speaker 4 (26:37):
Chief asked, we hadn't come down.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
You do?
Speaker 2 (26:41):
You do, and you're incredible, but you've got to spoon
feed it to me. Okay, I've got to destroy if
I'm prosecuting the case, destroy every one of these theories
one by one. It's okay, this guy an oldist, go figure.
Elvis Feels, who says, well, why be in trouble if
my salon I my spit. His words, not mine, are
(27:03):
on the dead girls' bodies. Okay, that would give calls
for suspicion. He has an alibi, But what about the
guy you just mentioned, brad Holder?
Speaker 1 (27:13):
Listen?
Speaker 3 (27:13):
The defense also reveals that brad Holder drunkenly tells his
ex wife that he had a falling out with his
friend Patrick Westfall over an odinist ritual gone bad. In
February twenty seventeen. When Amber Holder presses her ex further,
Holder tells her that Westfall admitted to Abby and Libby's
murders and that she needs to keep quiet about.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
It or they will kill her too. Oh.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
Chris McDonough joining me, director Cold Case Foundation. I found
him on the interview room on YouTube during the Coburger
the initial phases of the investigation.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
Chris McDonough, what do we do with idiots who make.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
False confessions, drunk confessions to their wives, crazy confessions to
their sisters when there are elebis proving it's not them.
Speaker 6 (28:03):
Well, the first thing you do is you slow down,
and whenever Elvis centers the building, you stop and you think, logically,
number one, you have the suspect on the bridge on video,
and if this is a you know, if we're going
to the Viking Share, then you know they they really
(28:24):
worked really hard to make the universe on schedule that day.
Because you have this suspect on top of the bridge,
and there's supposed to be this whole little coven underneath
the bridge, you know, having this ritual of some sort,
and then these two poor little victims who are out
on a walk end up showing up. This is the
(28:46):
This case has all the indications of a highly sexually
fantasized playout fantasy playing its olpen Chris.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
McDonough, do you ever have to leave our program and
then just go take hot shower and scrub yourself?
Speaker 1 (29:02):
Did you hear what you just said?
Speaker 2 (29:03):
I mean, you just said that murdering these two little
girls was part of I believe you said, a highly
sexualized fantasy, killing two little girls, swapping parts in their clothes,
leaving them naked out in the woods, their bodies potentially
(29:24):
being torn apart by animals, while the parents and the
grandparents are just like vomiting out of fear and pain
looking for their little children. I mean, that's his sex fantasy,
you know what. Yeah, it's almost more than I can
take in.
Speaker 6 (29:43):
You know, and Nancy, not only that, think about the
horror that the children are going through.
Speaker 9 (29:48):
I e.
Speaker 6 (29:48):
There's a gun involved. Okay, he's stripping each of these children,
and why is she doing this? Is he holding one
of them at gunpoint and while the other one is
putting the other child's clothing on? Does he then kill
that victim in front of the other victim who ends
up potentially running. There's evidence that one of the children
(30:12):
were running at that point. This guy is playing out
his fantasy and it's not going the way he wanted
it to. And the brutality of this is shown the
fact that a knife was now used and these four
children had to suffer through that pain, and that suffering
in of itself.
Speaker 3 (30:37):
Two other Rushville odinists with ties to brad Holder, Elvis
Fields and Patrick Westfall, are also named as potentially missed
suspects by the defense, although the men live nearly one
hundred and thirty miles away. One of their girlfriends told
investigators that she loaned her car to her boyfriend around
Valentine's Day twenty seventeen so he could visit Odinis friends Delphi.
(31:01):
Her boyfriend returned the car to her with dried blood
down one side, and she says he refused to explain
where the blood came from.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
What is she a crime scene tech? Does she test
the substance that was on the side of the car
and know it to be blood and human blood?
Speaker 1 (31:17):
Really? So wait, is this guy?
Speaker 2 (31:19):
Is this another specter part of the sod some of
the dude did it defense? The defense in this case
is going to parade in front of the jury. A girl,
an ex girlfriend, she can you imagine why? Says her
boyfriend drives to Delphi, say he can visit his odinist
friends and comes back with blood on the side of
the car. And when explain it that that is not
(31:42):
a sufficient sufficient evidence to claim that boyfriend was responsible.
In one word, Susan Hendrix, it's going to be hard
because you have so much knowledge now after sitting through
all of these days and days and days of hearings.
Can these guys be alibi by the state?
Speaker 1 (32:02):
Yes?
Speaker 4 (32:03):
No, yes, And they can't be tied to at the
cross examination. I know it's one word, but they could
not be tied to the crime scene at all, any
of them, even though they were investigated, which it was
six plus years till anyone was arrested, so you understand
the investigation. But then were they tied to the crime scene?
And the answer time and time again on the stand, No, no, no.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
Do they have alibis?
Speaker 2 (32:25):
Were they punched in at work where there's a receipt
placing them at Walmart?
Speaker 4 (32:29):
A brad Holder was punched in, Yes, punched in at
work and punched in at the gym Bradholder.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
Yet what about the others.
Speaker 4 (32:36):
I'm not sure if Elvis Fields has an alibi, the
one who turned around and said if my spit was
at the scene. But nothing, nothing connects him, no evidence
to the crime scene.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
I guarantee you right now the state is scrambling to
get an alibi for all of these guys. But as
Susan Hendrix just explained, you have to be physically tied
to the same as we believe this guy, Richard Allen,
is tied to the scene. But I want to go
(33:09):
back to doctor Mark Mirabello, Professor emeritus of History, Shawnee
State University, author of The Odin Brotherhood.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
You just explained how.
Speaker 2 (33:21):
Unlike Dexter, there is no ritual at all regarding the
murders of these two little girls, Abby and Libby what
else strikes you as proof this was not some sort
of a ritualistic killer.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
Ritualistic killer, yes, go ahead.
Speaker 9 (33:36):
Well we off the top one point as curious as
Elvis means, I see God. Now, incidentally, for your audience,
most of which are probably Christians. Not all Norse Pagans
are called Odinans. They tend to be called asa. True,
the more conservative are the oldness. Now I've studied these
groups for since the nineteen eighties. I have never seen
(33:57):
evity evidence of human sacrifice or even animal sacrifice. Now
earlier people's would sacrifice. Ancient Romans did, ancient Greeks did,
and so forth. Incidentally, Paul in his writings refers to
pete Christians eating meat offered to devils. He's referring to
(34:18):
is you could not slaughter an animal in ancient Greece
or Rome. It was always ritually killed. And again back
to the point they.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
Called the moderns, doctor Mirabello gave her forest trees? What
about this saying tells you it's not a ritualistic killing.
Speaker 9 (34:38):
As I said before, And it's really clear they would
not do something in such a haphazard way. I want
to make it very clear that and this is important.
It sounds like I'm in the weeds, but it's not.
Earlier peoples all practiced various forms of sacrifice, and if
it had been one offered to Odin, they would be
(34:59):
what's called sky sacrifice with a piercing. And that's based
on the Old Norse old Norse story that Odin sacrificed
himself to himself. And by the way, we find bodies
from the Middle Ages where they're sacrifice this way, and
what the sky sacrifice reverse do. He hanged himself on
(35:22):
the world's tree, that's the tree that holds up the
nine worlds, which is the universe, and then pierced himself
with a spear as an offering of himself to himself. Now,
nineteenth century scholars thought this was a curious story.
Speaker 2 (35:37):
Stop TMI, too much information. Now, well, I personally am
fascinated by everything you're saying. And that's not tongue in cheeke,
I actually mean it.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
I can't put all this in front of a jury.
That's just like you're in encyclopedia.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
You're walking encyclopedia as it relates to the Odin brotherhood.
Speaker 1 (35:59):
But to think and practicalities.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
Have to say to a jury, this is not a
ritualistic killing because X y Z, and then I need
to put you on the stand and very simply explain why.
Speaker 1 (36:11):
Here's a good start. Listen.
Speaker 7 (36:14):
On cross examination, prosecutor Nicholas mclealand points out that Pearl
Mutter also had quote no doubt the murders were ritualistic,
in a TV appearance months before reviewing any evidence. Mcleland
also claims Alan admitted he only used the sticks on
the bodies to cover them. A blood pattern expert testifies
the apparent letter F is likely just a smear from
(36:36):
blood on Abby's hand, and mcleland gets Pearl Mutter to
admit there's no physical evidence tying any of the named
odinists to the crime scene.
Speaker 2 (36:44):
Okay, Susan Hendricks, let me understand what I just heard
from Crime onlines. Dave Mack, the expert that's going to
come on at trial, committed to a ritualistic odistic killing
before he ever saw well any evidence.
Speaker 1 (37:02):
Is that correct? It is?
Speaker 4 (37:03):
And she was on the stand for some time talking
about why she thought it was this way. So Nick
McCleland said, well, what if I told you she mentioned
a knife being part of that ritual he said, what
if I told you during the confessions he said it
was a box cutter, she would that changed her mind now.
Speaker 5 (37:18):
Well.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
Also, the blood pattern expert explains the letter F is
likely a blood smear from Abby's hand, and the so
called expert has to admit no physical evidence ties.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
Any of these oldness to the.
Speaker 2 (37:33):
Crime scene, and then we have to deal with all
the confessions.
Speaker 1 (37:39):
Guys, take a listen to this.
Speaker 3 (37:41):
On the witness stand, Doctor Monica Walla and Indiana Department
of Corrections psychologists treating Richard Allen, claims that she noticed
the accused killer smiraling just before the confessions began. Wala
describes Alan banging his head against the wall, eating his
own feces, and frequently speaking of suicide. Testifies that staff
is providing Allan antipsychotic medications at least once a month.
Speaker 1 (38:06):
Well.
Speaker 10 (38:06):
Special Judge Fran Gull has yet to rule on the
amissibility of Richard Allen's many confessions testimony. Did swear r
to vacate a safe keeping order and remove Allan from
the Westville Correctional Facility. Allan will instead be held at
the Cass County Jail.
Speaker 2 (38:20):
BOO, who did anybody ever think Richard Schoenstein, veteran trial lawyer,
that he's spiraling because he got caught for.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
The double murders of two little children.
Speaker 11 (38:32):
Sure, that's a possibility, But you know, Nancy, the guy's
got it due process right, So I mean we get
to have a trial, he gets to put on a
defense if he wants to argue Odins did it, and
he has some.
Speaker 5 (38:43):
Evidence in that regard, I think he gets to put
it on.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
Well, of course he does, and in fact, Rich Shoenstein,
I would be angry.
Speaker 1 (38:50):
I'd be mad if he didn't.
Speaker 2 (38:51):
I hope he tries to blame the worshippers of the
Norse gods.
Speaker 1 (38:54):
But what I'm telling you is the defense is climbing.
Speaker 2 (38:57):
Oh, he's out of his mind when he gave all
these six Steve plus confessions to inmates, two guards.
Speaker 1 (39:03):
To his wife on the phone, that he didn't know
what he was saying.
Speaker 2 (39:07):
I would submit rich schoen Stein that he started spiraling
out of control because he realized it's over.
Speaker 1 (39:15):
They caught me. I'm in jail. I've been busted on
two murders. I killed two little girls. That is one
possible explanation, but another possible.
Speaker 5 (39:24):
Explanation is that he's been in prisoned for something he
didn't do and it's making him crazy. And it's up
for a jury to decide which of those explanations is correct.
Speaker 2 (39:34):
Okay, you cannot have your cake and eat it too.
That's not going to work show and Stein maybe.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
In front of a jury, but not here. You're in Nancyland. Now.
You can't claim.
Speaker 2 (39:46):
He's so upset because he's wrongly confused, and that he
can fess over sixty times.
Speaker 6 (39:52):
Why not? Why are those two things inconsistent? Why is
it inconsistent?
Speaker 2 (39:56):
Because if he's unjustly accused, then why would he confess?
Speaker 6 (39:59):
I don't. I mean, listen, it's not what I would do.
Speaker 5 (40:02):
But the fury is he's been driven to it by
being put in solitary confinement, by being pulled away from
his family. Look, I don't think the jury is going
to buy it either.
Speaker 2 (40:13):
Hey, you know what Showen's saying. You know who has
pulled away from their family? Abby and Libby totally agree.
Speaker 1 (40:20):
Guys.
Speaker 2 (40:21):
We wait, as the evidence unfolds in a court of law,
how much of this will the jury ever hear?
Speaker 1 (40:27):
Nancy Grace signing off, goodbye friend,
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Delphi murder suspect is claiming these two little girls, Abby
and Libby, ages thirteen and fourteen, were murdered by a
pagan cult. This as dreams of evidence is pouring from
the witness stand. But what will be allowed in front
of a jury? I'm Nancy Grace, this is crime Stories.
(00:28):
Thank you for being with us.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Who murdered Abigail and Liberty? A suspect is called on
video with his menacing instructions down the hill.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
So much happening in a court of law, But what
will the jury be allowed to hear?
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Something really doesn't seem.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Right that we know all of this evidence, but the
jury may never know it.
Speaker 3 (00:59):
For instance, testimony during the hearings confirmed several details about
the crime scene. Both Abby and Libby's throats are cut
and the girl's bodies are covered with branches. Libby is
found completely nude, and Abby is dressed in both hers
and some of Libby's clothing. Aside from the neck area,
the clothing found on Abby is mostly clean.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Okay, I'm supposed to believe a pagan cult has as
responsibility for the brutal murders of two little girls. One
I believe naked, the other one had on the other's clothing.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Hold on, let's get the facts straight.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Joining me an all star panel to make sense of
what we know right now and living through the entire
probative hearing, which means evidence pouring from the witness stand
Susan Hendrick's well known investigative reporter, journalist and author of
Down the Hill, My Descent into the double Murder in Delphi. Susan,
(02:00):
thank you for being with us. There's so much happening.
I hate to get bogged down in the whole pagan
cult did it. But the reality is the defense is
naming actual names as to who they believe are the
real murderers connected to this pagan cult.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
What about it?
Speaker 4 (02:21):
I believe Nancy, and it's great to be on that.
The defense has always tried to establish that that is
who they believed killed Abby and libbyan Odus cult. So
it was mentioned in that Frank's hearing. It disguised in
my opinion, as of Frank's hearing, but really to put
out there what they believed happened on that day in
(02:42):
twenty seventeen.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
You're like a locomotive right now, you're steaming for But
you're carrying.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
A payload so much evidence.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
You know, I taught English briefly while I was waiting
to get into law school.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
I need to dissect, you know, like you.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Put the verb here and the adjective here, and you
just said a lot and we're like ten seconds into
our program.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
Hold on, So, first of all, you said a frank's hearing.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
Now, in every jurisdiction, unless you're talking about federal law,
states ascribe a different name to their hearing. Now, in
this particular jurisdiction, isn't a frank hearing a claim that
law enforcement lied in some aspect, be it the problem
will cause search warrant or resta warrant, or some other
(03:27):
aspect of the case.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
Isn't that what a frank's hearing is in that jurisdiction?
Speaker 4 (03:31):
Absolutely, Nancy, I'm glad you stopped me because there is
so much information here. I'm used to just saying it
the Frank's hearing. What they were alleging was that Sheriff
Liggett lied in what he thought was at Richard Allen's
home in order to get that search warrant. So the
attorneys are trying to throw.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Out Wait, wait, wait, what search warrant? There's so many.
So the defense is claiming we have to have a
Frank's hearing because hey, Sheriff Liggett. Now, okay, I'm not
saying the sheriff did or did not lie, but you're
also say to hey, with that, that was just a
pretense to try to get the defense theory out there. Okay,
(04:11):
what are they claiming Liggot lied about.
Speaker 4 (04:15):
Saying that he specifically had more evidence than he did.
It wasn't really clear why they thought he was lying.
What they did say was, hey, we need a hearing,
we want it tossed out. But Nancy, you.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
Have sat through days and days of evidence and they
never made it clear what Leggott lied about the sheriff.
Speaker 4 (04:38):
Really the Frank's Hearing was one hundred and thirty six pages.
So in that convoluted memo with a lot of grammatical mistakes,
was why Liggot lied. And I remember getting that. I
was at Crime Connor hearing about it first, and I
was with the family members there, and I didn't read
(05:00):
the entire memo because to me, it was the defense's
way of having the media read it.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Well, wait a minute, whether you look, you did not
fight your way onto Lauri review at law school. Okay,
you don't have to tell me what Sam. I thought
it was one hundred and thirty nine pages.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
But that said, you heard the hearing.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Did they ever come forward the defense and claim what
Leiggott allegedly lied about? I mean, because I've never known
you to be wrong on a fact, Susan ever, so
if they didn't give a clear picture about what the
Franks claim is after that many days of testimony, Okay,
let's just suffice to say they're claiming Ligot lied about
(05:45):
a warrant, which warrant a rest or search search search.
Speaker 4 (05:49):
Of what of Richard Allen's home, which they did end
up searching.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
Because there were so many search warrants, I got to
make sure which one is in jeopardy over an alleged
lie by the sheriff.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
Okay, hold on just a moment.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
I'm going to get into the meat of this, the
claim that Norse god worshipers really kill the girls.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
And everything else's happening in the courtroom.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
But rich Schownstein is joining me, a veteran trial lawyer
partner with Tartar, Krinsky and Drogan. Okay, I don't like
that name because your name is not the lead name.
I don't like that, and you need to fix that,
Rich Schoenstein. Did you just hear Susan Hendrick say it
was full of grammatical errors. That may be a small
(06:29):
and consequential detail to a lot of people, but I
can tell you this after trying so many cases, I've
lost count and handling literally about ten thousand felonies.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
I know that's hard to believe, but think about it.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
Over ten plus years in a felony courtroom, and you
get about one hundred new cases a week added up.
Those cases have to be resolved, whether it's a plea
or a trial. That said, when I get a brief
and the first thing I say, see is a lot
of grammatical errors, I'm like, if they didn't even think
(07:04):
to do a word check, a spell check and they
can't spell, I doubt anything in here is going to
really knock me out. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (07:14):
Well, especially today when you know that spell checks and
grammar checks as you type. It's not like the old
days when you and I began practicing, where you'd have
to type something and then get proof readers on it.
The machine proofs it while you go. So if it's
full of mistakes, if it's full of grammatical mistakes, if
it doesn't make sense, if it doesn't look good, you're
(07:36):
going to be less inclined to buy the arguments in it.
Speaker 6 (07:38):
That's just the bobble.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Exactly, and the fact that Susan Hendrix said full of
grammatical errors, like she and I are big on grammar
and grammatical errors and improper english Jackie. So that said,
if that's the first thing you notice the rest of it,
you're not going to be impressed.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
Now can we get to the act evidence. But you
know one more thing, Susan Henders, I just want to
tell you.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
You remember the other day you were sitting in the
courtroom with the victim's family and Richard Allen, the double
murder suspect who I believe stripped both little girls before
he killed them, and god only.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
Knows what else.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
You mentioned that he kept turning around and glaring at
you and the victim's family, and you and I talked
about what that meant. People online went bizarre, saying, why
are you focusing on the guy staring at Susan Hendricks
and the family. That doesn't matter, Actually it does matter.
(08:37):
But now get ready because we're going to get it
up the tailpipe about talking about grammar, So just go
ahead and buckle your seatbelt.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Anyway, back to the evidence Listen.
Speaker 7 (08:47):
Richard Allen's defense is also fighting to have their third
party culprit defense heard by the jury. Allen's attorneys insist
that law enforcement did not fully investigate five men bound
together by a Rushville Odinis club. Their theory stems from
a twelve page filing by Trooper Kevin Murphy that the
defense refers to as the Odin Report.
Speaker 3 (09:07):
The defense hires non Pearl Mutter, an expert on ritualistic crimes.
Pearl Mutter testifies that the crime scene is textbook. Pearl
Mutter sees ruines on the sticks laid on top of
Abby and Libby's bodies and points out a blood smear
on a tree in the shape of the letter F,
explaining that it is significant to Odin Knight's.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Okay, I'm going to need help getting through this because
all I can envision are these two little girls, Abby
and Libby dead. Susan Hendricks hold on, Susan one moment.
I'm going to come back to you about what in
the evidence suggests. The defense theory that Accult did this
(09:52):
and then I'm going to go to doctor Mark Mirabello,
former professor History, Shawnee State University and author of The
Odin Brotherhood. Okay, if you want to know more about that,
going to Markmirabello dot com The Odin Brotherhood. Okay, Before
(10:13):
I get to that, Joe Scott Morgan is with us
along with Chris McDonough. Chris mcdonnad director Cold Case Foundation,
former homicide detective about three hundred death scenes homicides. To
his credit, he is at Colcasefoundation dot org. I found
him on the interview room on YouTube. Before I go
to him to analyze what Joe Scott's about to say,
(10:37):
Joe Scott Morgan, Joseph Sorry.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
Joe Scott.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of
Blood Beneath My Feet, I'm waiting for the second book,
It Hasn't Happened, and host of a hit series Body
Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, could you please
describe as the defense is twitching its tail and gnashing
(11:03):
its teeth, coming up with everybody and their sister that
they can blame the murders on. Could you just give
me a little reality check, Joe Scott and explain how
these girls. I just got chills on my arms because
when I said these girls, I thought.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
About my girl at my boy. How these girls were
found lying out in the open dead.
Speaker 8 (11:30):
Explain it in a very isolated area immediately adjacent to
this body of water, that is that has flown, that
flows beneath this bridge. It's densely wooded. However, there were
no leaves on the tree trees at this point in time.
Remember this is back in the early spring or just
(11:51):
heading into spring, and they are, in my opinion, from
what I'm understanding, essentially pose the bodies have been stripped.
And you've got this event that has occurred where they
are alleging that one of the bodies has been redressed
with the clothing of another.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
Okay, stop right there, Joe Scotty.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
You and I are used to looking at dead bodies,
were used to analyzing them, every little thing about them,
the actual angle of a bullet as it travels through
the body, which organs were decimated, trace evidence, touch evidence,
fiber evidence, hair.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
You name it. Can we just pause for a moment.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
And think about the person that stripped these little girls
and then redressed one of them, of course, confusing the clothing.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
Could you get through that one more time?
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Out there on the ground in the woods, the little
girls stripped, I guess pre mortem.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
And then do you remember Ted Bundy? Of course you
do remember there or there's.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
Proof that he would actually take some of the victim's
bodies and bathe them in a bathtub and fix their
hair and makeup. But just think about the ritualistic redressing.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
The idiot, of course.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Used the wrong clothes, but redressing a did child's body.
I mean, Joe Scott, we have to slow down and
think about these facts.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
You and I just like spit it out.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
And it's better for me that way, because when I
slow down to think about the facts, I can't sleep
at night, I don't feel like eating, I want to cry.
But these are the facts and we can't turn away
from it.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Joe Scott.
Speaker 8 (13:58):
Yeah, And when you think about this idea of redressing,
it's to my way of thinking, at least, it's you have.
You know, people throw around the term objectification all the time.
This is literally pure objectification, where you're talking about you
have dehumanized the individual. They're treated like dolls at this
(14:18):
point in time so that you can play dress up
with them in some kind of twisted manner. I've actually
been involved in a series of serial killings that I've
investigated back in the early part of my career, where
an individual would do the same thing, and it's it
is evidence of kind of a demented mind that does this,
(14:40):
that engages in almost this necrophilic behavior.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
Chilling details emerged during a three day hearing for the
Delphi murders.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
Evidence pouring from the witness stand. But this is what
has always driven me crazy, among so many things, is
that we on the outside looking in will know more
of the evidence than the actual jury will ever know,
because so much of this evidence is being ruled out
with me an all star panel, and we're stuck on
(15:19):
the theory that paganists that worship Norse gods actually murdered
Abby and Libby. Joseph Scott Morgan death investigator, and I
were just describing how the girls were completely naked and
then the killer re dressed one of them, and I'm
thinking about the mind of someone that would so desecrate
(15:43):
a little girl in this manner. But we may think
it's outlandish, we may think it's far fast it is.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
That's why we think that. But if the defense can
snag one.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
Juror and cause a mische, that's a huge victory for them,
just one gurrr that buys into this crazy zany thing. Now,
I want you to listen to how they're taking a
zany claim that worshippers of the Norse gods. I'm talking
about Thor and Odin. You know about the Valkyrie, the
(16:18):
women warriors who fly through the sky, and even if
they're killed in battle in this pretend world, they arise
to fight the next day. Again, that's what they believe. Okay,
how can that be translated into a real life defense?
Speaker 1 (16:36):
Listen.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
The defense argues that Brad Holder, the father of Abbey's
boyfriend and a known odinist, was ruled out as a
suspect too quickly. The defense alleges Holder posted several eerie
photos on Facebook in the days after the murders, including
one that appears to mimic the crime scene. Court documents
say the pictures show two girls lying in the woods
(16:57):
in positions similar to how Abby and Libby these bodies
were discovered. Holder also posts runes and a photo with
the letter F painted on a tree.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
Before I can even formulate my next question to Susan Hendricks,
a investigated journalist and author, I need to get some facts.
Doctor Mark Mirabello is joining us, who has now shot
to fame because of the book The odin Brotherhood that
he wrote before any of us had even heard of Odinism.
(17:29):
G How did we miss that Odinism? He had already
written a book, doctor Mark Mirabello. So great to have
you with us. Now the defense is claiming that Odinist
actually murdered Libby and Abby, and they're pointing toward what
they claim are runs, which I believe are rocks, but
(17:52):
I'm not really sure, lying on the body or around
the body?
Speaker 1 (17:58):
What are runs?
Speaker 2 (18:00):
What do they have to do with the pagan religion
of Aganism?
Speaker 9 (18:06):
By the way, several points. First, I'm now Professor emeritus,
which is retired in a great honor. Now we get
answering your question. The Vikings used the rooms, and oddly
enough they seem to resemble a trust in writing style
from northern Italy. We're not certain of the origin, but
the ruins were designed to be carved into wood, bone
(18:28):
and stone. Now, because the Vikings were overwhelmingly illiterate, like
a lot of the literate people, they thought writing was magical.
And by the way, I should mention very clearly, writing
is magical. With writing and communicate with the future, you
can read the thoughts of the past. So it really
is magical. And in fact, in many cultures, like in
(18:51):
ancient Egypt, writing something can cause magical acts to occur.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
Doctor, they claim that writing is magical to pretend I
didn't we hear that.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
Okay, oh it is.
Speaker 6 (19:04):
Who killed?
Speaker 1 (19:05):
Go ahead the rings.
Speaker 9 (19:06):
Okay, Now, remember I'm a specialist and occultism and also matriical.
Speaker 6 (19:10):
Lord.
Speaker 9 (19:10):
So but let's get back to the ruins and quickly,
let me just specify that this is not a human sacrifice.
I mean, anyone who knows anything about the history of
religion understands this is not a human sacrifice. The whole
point of human sacrifice, and I remember it was on
(19:32):
your show last time I made this point I won't
repeat myself, is a ritualized killing. It's a what's called
a comedy of innocence where you pretend you're not really
killing someone a simple murder. You're killing someone, you're cutting
the throat whatever, shooting them. A ritual sacrifice is essentially
you're pretending you're not. And the whole purpose of ritual
(19:56):
sacrifice is to either earn the favor of the gods,
give gratitude a tone for some kind of a fence.
For example, ancient Greeks when they killed someone would dip
their hands, even soldiers, in a pig's blood that they
had sacrificed to purify them. They couldn't go back in
the temples. So again the sacrifice of purpose, and the
(20:20):
important part is the ritual. You don't do this in
the middle of nowhere and start spreading sticks on the
bodies or putting an f on a tree. You would
if this were really a sacrifice. The felon would bring
the little girls to a location and he would act
out a ritual, kind of like the way if you've
(20:42):
ever seen the Dexter show, the serial killer, how he
acts out a ritual when he kills the serial killers.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
Right, see see what you just said. I hope the
state is listening. Who doesn't know about Dexter. By the way,
there's a reboot just so you know. Let me take
this in just.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
For a moment, because formulating an opening statement and a
closing statement and in this case, the state will have
the final closing statement, which is very, very.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
If critical for the state.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
It will be the last words the jury hears before
jury instructions, before they go deliberate. And this is critical
because see I'm hanging on you every word. This could
mean justice or injustice for the families of Abby and Libby.
And I'm telling you right now, doctor Mirabello, that this
(21:31):
is the direction in which.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
The defense is going. Why because they've already put it
out there. They're kind of stuck with it. Now.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
Now hold on, when you compared it to Dexter, Now
see that's something a jury and myself we can understand.
I'm going to circle back to you, Joe Scott Morgan
on all the Latin mumbo jumbo you throw out there,
and you expect all of us to understand it. We're
not medical doctrines, show Scott, we're not death investigators. But
(21:59):
what he just said, what he just said, if you
tell a jury and you compare to like Dexter, someone
that most people can relate to have seen it, and
remember how he just got lays out plastic, surrounds himself
with plastic, and only uses certain tools and has a
(22:21):
ritual where he puts the victim's pictures up all around
the defendant, and the defendant wakes up and sees what
he has done before Dexter kills him. That's a ritual
and that's something Givars can latch onto.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
To further Mirabello's assertion that this was no ritual.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
He basically molested and murdered two little girls in the woods.
Speaker 1 (22:44):
That's what happened. Get it.
Speaker 8 (22:46):
Yeah, let me tell you something. I'm old enough to
remember when every damn case out there was referred to
as a ritualistic killing. When I started working back in
the eighties, everything was pushed off on ritualism. There was
a safe and this around every corner. Need need I
remind people of the McMartin case preschool case out in California.
(23:07):
That was one of the biggest frauds that was ever
foisted on the American public. And I think we're going
down that road here, Nancy. You know, when you think
about it, if you're talking about an individual that is
out in the woods, there's going to be a very
specific area. If this is a ritualized event, there will
(23:28):
be an area where they do this all the time.
In this in this little area. It's ridiculous.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
We have a symbol today, the best and the brightest,
to take apart what we're learning from Susan Hendrick's investigative
journalist and author of an incredible book, Down the Hill,
My Descent into the Double Murder in Delphi. Okay, wait, wait,
I want to go back to Mirabello. Doctor Mark Mirabello literally.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
Wrote the book on the Odin brotherhood.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
As fantastical as this defensive theory may sound, they're actually attaching.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
It to real people.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
Of just one gr Ard gets sucked in the state
is screwed technical legal term.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
Listen.
Speaker 10 (24:11):
The defense team refers back to Trooper Kevin Murphy's investigation,
during which he learned that Rushville odinist Elvis Fields allegedly
described the crime scene in detail to his sister. Murphy
writes that when questioned about that admission, Fields denies any
involvement in the murders, but strangely asks if he will
be in trouble if his spit is found on the
(24:32):
girl's bodies. Fields also has ties to Brad Holder, frequently
reposting or copying Holder's Facebook posts.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
Oh Dear Lord in Heaven as a prosecutor. That's what
I don't want to hear, okay.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
But you have to hear it, and you've got to
confront it in your opening statement. Susan Hendrix helped me.
The defense is going to claim, under the odness theory
that a Rushville oldness l this feels described the crime
scene in detail to his sister.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
Now I can't.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
I can explain that enough details had leaked out in
the local area and sometimes in the press that he
could latch onto those details and then regurgitate him. You
regurgitate them to his sister, but I'm not sure what
about him asking well, I be in trouble if my
spit is on the girls?
Speaker 1 (25:27):
Oh yeah, where?
Speaker 4 (25:28):
And the investigator Nancy Kevin Murphy, he was on the
stand and by the way, he broke down in tears
when seeing the crime scene photos that were handed to him,
breaking down in tears and saying yes. I interviewed Elvis Fields.
I pulled him up to his house. He came to
my adoor and asked that question, and the former Indiana
State Police officer now retired, said, I made a mistake.
I should have had lunch with him or talked more
(25:51):
about what he was talking about. But here's what stands
out to me. They all have alibis the cross examination of.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
The mast q in heaven, I don't care if he
asked about a spit in his fingerprints. He has an alibi.
That's all I need to hear. Are you sure this
guy who is an oldinist? Where do these people come from?
Speaker 1 (26:12):
An oldist?
Speaker 2 (26:12):
Elvis Feels asks, hey, well, I'll be in trouble if
my spits on the dead girl's body.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
Uh yeah, Are you telling me he has an alibi?
Speaker 6 (26:22):
Yes?
Speaker 4 (26:23):
No, yes, And Brad Holder absolutely does. His ex wife
was on the stand saying, look, he did mention the
girls and mentioned that killing and the murders. But the
cross examination was huge. Nancy, drink you from the higher.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
Fire hydrant, Susan Hendricks too much.
Speaker 4 (26:37):
Chief asked, we hadn't come down.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
You do?
Speaker 2 (26:41):
You do, and you're incredible, but you've got to spoon
feed it to me. Okay, I've got to destroy if
I'm prosecuting the case, destroy every one of these theories
one by one. It's okay, this guy an oldist, go figure.
Elvis Feels, who says, well, why be in trouble if
my salon I my spit. His words, not mine, are
(27:03):
on the dead girls' bodies. Okay, that would give calls
for suspicion. He has an alibi, But what about the
guy you just mentioned, brad Holder?
Speaker 1 (27:13):
Listen?
Speaker 3 (27:13):
The defense also reveals that brad Holder drunkenly tells his
ex wife that he had a falling out with his
friend Patrick Westfall over an odinist ritual gone bad. In
February twenty seventeen. When Amber Holder presses her ex further,
Holder tells her that Westfall admitted to Abby and Libby's
murders and that she needs to keep quiet about.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
It or they will kill her too. Oh.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
Chris McDonough joining me, director Cold Case Foundation. I found
him on the interview room on YouTube during the Coburger
the initial phases of the investigation.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
Chris McDonough, what do we do with idiots who make.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
False confessions, drunk confessions to their wives, crazy confessions to
their sisters when there are elebis proving it's not them.
Speaker 6 (28:03):
Well, the first thing you do is you slow down,
and whenever Elvis centers the building, you stop and you think, logically,
number one, you have the suspect on the bridge on video,
and if this is a you know, if we're going
to the Viking Share, then you know they they really
(28:24):
worked really hard to make the universe on schedule that day.
Because you have this suspect on top of the bridge,
and there's supposed to be this whole little coven underneath
the bridge, you know, having this ritual of some sort,
and then these two poor little victims who are out
on a walk end up showing up. This is the
(28:46):
This case has all the indications of a highly sexually
fantasized playout fantasy playing its olpen Chris.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
McDonough, do you ever have to leave our program and
then just go take hot shower and scrub yourself?
Speaker 1 (29:02):
Did you hear what you just said?
Speaker 2 (29:03):
I mean, you just said that murdering these two little
girls was part of I believe you said, a highly
sexualized fantasy, killing two little girls, swapping parts in their clothes,
leaving them naked out in the woods, their bodies potentially
(29:24):
being torn apart by animals, while the parents and the
grandparents are just like vomiting out of fear and pain
looking for their little children. I mean, that's his sex fantasy,
you know what. Yeah, it's almost more than I can
take in.
Speaker 6 (29:43):
You know, and Nancy, not only that, think about the
horror that the children are going through.
Speaker 9 (29:48):
I e.
Speaker 6 (29:48):
There's a gun involved. Okay, he's stripping each of these children,
and why is she doing this? Is he holding one
of them at gunpoint and while the other one is
putting the other child's clothing on? Does he then kill
that victim in front of the other victim who ends
up potentially running. There's evidence that one of the children
(30:12):
were running at that point. This guy is playing out
his fantasy and it's not going the way he wanted
it to. And the brutality of this is shown the
fact that a knife was now used and these four
children had to suffer through that pain, and that suffering
in of itself.
Speaker 3 (30:37):
Two other Rushville odinists with ties to brad Holder, Elvis
Fields and Patrick Westfall, are also named as potentially missed
suspects by the defense, although the men live nearly one
hundred and thirty miles away. One of their girlfriends told
investigators that she loaned her car to her boyfriend around
Valentine's Day twenty seventeen so he could visit Odinis friends Delphi.
(31:01):
Her boyfriend returned the car to her with dried blood
down one side, and she says he refused to explain
where the blood came from.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
What is she a crime scene tech? Does she test
the substance that was on the side of the car
and know it to be blood and human blood?
Speaker 1 (31:17):
Really? So wait, is this guy?
Speaker 2 (31:19):
Is this another specter part of the sod some of
the dude did it defense? The defense in this case
is going to parade in front of the jury. A girl,
an ex girlfriend, she can you imagine why? Says her
boyfriend drives to Delphi, say he can visit his odinist
friends and comes back with blood on the side of
the car. And when explain it that that is not
(31:42):
a sufficient sufficient evidence to claim that boyfriend was responsible.
In one word, Susan Hendrix, it's going to be hard
because you have so much knowledge now after sitting through
all of these days and days and days of hearings.
Can these guys be alibi by the state?
Speaker 1 (32:02):
Yes?
Speaker 4 (32:03):
No, yes, And they can't be tied to at the
cross examination. I know it's one word, but they could
not be tied to the crime scene at all, any
of them, even though they were investigated, which it was
six plus years till anyone was arrested, so you understand
the investigation. But then were they tied to the crime scene?
And the answer time and time again on the stand, No, no, no.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
Do they have alibis?
Speaker 2 (32:25):
Were they punched in at work where there's a receipt
placing them at Walmart?
Speaker 4 (32:29):
A brad Holder was punched in, Yes, punched in at
work and punched in at the gym Bradholder.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
Yet what about the others.
Speaker 4 (32:36):
I'm not sure if Elvis Fields has an alibi, the
one who turned around and said if my spit was
at the scene. But nothing, nothing connects him, no evidence
to the crime scene.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
I guarantee you right now the state is scrambling to
get an alibi for all of these guys. But as
Susan Hendrix just explained, you have to be physically tied
to the same as we believe this guy, Richard Allen,
is tied to the scene. But I want to go
(33:09):
back to doctor Mark Mirabello, Professor emeritus of History, Shawnee
State University, author of The Odin Brotherhood.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
You just explained how.
Speaker 2 (33:21):
Unlike Dexter, there is no ritual at all regarding the
murders of these two little girls, Abby and Libby what
else strikes you as proof this was not some sort
of a ritualistic killer.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
Ritualistic killer, yes, go ahead.
Speaker 9 (33:36):
Well we off the top one point as curious as
Elvis means, I see God. Now, incidentally, for your audience,
most of which are probably Christians. Not all Norse Pagans
are called Odinans. They tend to be called asa. True,
the more conservative are the oldness. Now I've studied these
groups for since the nineteen eighties. I have never seen
(33:57):
evity evidence of human sacrifice or even animal sacrifice. Now
earlier people's would sacrifice. Ancient Romans did, ancient Greeks did,
and so forth. Incidentally, Paul in his writings refers to
pete Christians eating meat offered to devils. He's referring to
(34:18):
is you could not slaughter an animal in ancient Greece
or Rome. It was always ritually killed. And again back
to the point they.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
Called the moderns, doctor Mirabello gave her forest trees? What
about this saying tells you it's not a ritualistic killing.
Speaker 9 (34:38):
As I said before, And it's really clear they would
not do something in such a haphazard way. I want
to make it very clear that and this is important.
It sounds like I'm in the weeds, but it's not.
Earlier peoples all practiced various forms of sacrifice, and if
it had been one offered to Odin, they would be
(34:59):
what's called sky sacrifice with a piercing. And that's based
on the Old Norse old Norse story that Odin sacrificed
himself to himself. And by the way, we find bodies
from the Middle Ages where they're sacrifice this way, and
what the sky sacrifice reverse do. He hanged himself on
(35:22):
the world's tree, that's the tree that holds up the
nine worlds, which is the universe, and then pierced himself
with a spear as an offering of himself to himself. Now,
nineteenth century scholars thought this was a curious story.
Speaker 2 (35:37):
Stop TMI, too much information. Now, well, I personally am
fascinated by everything you're saying. And that's not tongue in cheeke,
I actually mean it.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
I can't put all this in front of a jury.
That's just like you're in encyclopedia.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
You're walking encyclopedia as it relates to the Odin brotherhood.
Speaker 1 (35:59):
But to think and practicalities.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
Have to say to a jury, this is not a
ritualistic killing because X y Z, and then I need
to put you on the stand and very simply explain why.
Speaker 1 (36:11):
Here's a good start. Listen.
Speaker 7 (36:14):
On cross examination, prosecutor Nicholas mclealand points out that Pearl
Mutter also had quote no doubt the murders were ritualistic,
in a TV appearance months before reviewing any evidence. Mcleland
also claims Alan admitted he only used the sticks on
the bodies to cover them. A blood pattern expert testifies
the apparent letter F is likely just a smear from
(36:36):
blood on Abby's hand, and mcleland gets Pearl Mutter to
admit there's no physical evidence tying any of the named
odinists to the crime scene.
Speaker 2 (36:44):
Okay, Susan Hendricks, let me understand what I just heard
from Crime onlines. Dave Mack, the expert that's going to
come on at trial, committed to a ritualistic odistic killing
before he ever saw well any evidence.
Speaker 1 (37:02):
Is that correct? It is?
Speaker 4 (37:03):
And she was on the stand for some time talking
about why she thought it was this way. So Nick
McCleland said, well, what if I told you she mentioned
a knife being part of that ritual he said, what
if I told you during the confessions he said it
was a box cutter, she would that changed her mind now.
Speaker 5 (37:18):
Well.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
Also, the blood pattern expert explains the letter F is
likely a blood smear from Abby's hand, and the so
called expert has to admit no physical evidence ties.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
Any of these oldness to the.
Speaker 2 (37:33):
Crime scene, and then we have to deal with all
the confessions.
Speaker 1 (37:39):
Guys, take a listen to this.
Speaker 3 (37:41):
On the witness stand, Doctor Monica Walla and Indiana Department
of Corrections psychologists treating Richard Allen, claims that she noticed
the accused killer smiraling just before the confessions began. Wala
describes Alan banging his head against the wall, eating his
own feces, and frequently speaking of suicide. Testifies that staff
is providing Allan antipsychotic medications at least once a month.
Speaker 1 (38:06):
Well.
Speaker 10 (38:06):
Special Judge Fran Gull has yet to rule on the
amissibility of Richard Allen's many confessions testimony. Did swear r
to vacate a safe keeping order and remove Allan from
the Westville Correctional Facility. Allan will instead be held at
the Cass County Jail.
Speaker 2 (38:20):
BOO, who did anybody ever think Richard Schoenstein, veteran trial lawyer,
that he's spiraling because he got caught for.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
The double murders of two little children.
Speaker 11 (38:32):
Sure, that's a possibility, But you know, Nancy, the guy's
got it due process right, So I mean we get
to have a trial, he gets to put on a
defense if he wants to argue Odins did it, and
he has some.
Speaker 5 (38:43):
Evidence in that regard, I think he gets to put
it on.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
Well, of course he does, and in fact, Rich Shoenstein,
I would be angry.
Speaker 1 (38:50):
I'd be mad if he didn't.
Speaker 2 (38:51):
I hope he tries to blame the worshippers of the
Norse gods.
Speaker 1 (38:54):
But what I'm telling you is the defense is climbing.
Speaker 2 (38:57):
Oh, he's out of his mind when he gave all
these six Steve plus confessions to inmates, two guards.
Speaker 1 (39:03):
To his wife on the phone, that he didn't know
what he was saying.
Speaker 2 (39:07):
I would submit rich schoen Stein that he started spiraling
out of control because he realized it's over.
Speaker 1 (39:15):
They caught me. I'm in jail. I've been busted on
two murders. I killed two little girls. That is one
possible explanation, but another possible.
Speaker 5 (39:24):
Explanation is that he's been in prisoned for something he
didn't do and it's making him crazy. And it's up
for a jury to decide which of those explanations is correct.
Speaker 2 (39:34):
Okay, you cannot have your cake and eat it too.
That's not going to work show and Stein maybe.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
In front of a jury, but not here. You're in Nancyland. Now.
You can't claim.
Speaker 2 (39:46):
He's so upset because he's wrongly confused, and that he
can fess over sixty times.
Speaker 6 (39:52):
Why not? Why are those two things inconsistent? Why is
it inconsistent?
Speaker 2 (39:56):
Because if he's unjustly accused, then why would he confess?
Speaker 6 (39:59):
I don't. I mean, listen, it's not what I would do.
Speaker 5 (40:02):
But the fury is he's been driven to it by
being put in solitary confinement, by being pulled away from
his family. Look, I don't think the jury is going
to buy it either.
Speaker 2 (40:13):
Hey, you know what Showen's saying. You know who has
pulled away from their family? Abby and Libby totally agree.
Speaker 1 (40:20):
Guys.
Speaker 2 (40:21):
We wait, as the evidence unfolds in a court of law,
how much of this will the jury ever hear?
Speaker 1 (40:27):
Nancy Grace signing off, goodbye friend,
Host
Nancy Grace
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