December 8, 2025 • 43 mins
Feeling contractions at 38 weeks pregnant, Rebecca goes to the hospital on November 2, even though her due date is not until November 18.
An exam reveals she is not in labor, and Rebecca goes to pick up her biological mother to run errands. Rebecca has $2,000 cash she receives as an inheritance from family in preparation for her baby.
Rebecca Park's fiancé, Richard Lee Falor, is trying to get in touch with Rebecca, but she is not answering or replying to text messages.
Knowing Rebecca has been shopping with her biological mother, Falor calls Cortney Bartholomew, who says Rebecca got into a black-colored sedan with tinted windows just before midnight and left.
Falor reports Rebecca missing with the Wexford County Sheriff's office. Searches organized for the 22-year-old mom-to-be, who is 38 weeks pregnant, are done with a sense of urgency.
Michigan State Police find Rebecca's phone alongside the road near her mother's house.
On a trail directly behind the home of Rebecca's mother, Cortney Bartholomew, a volunteer finds the body of Rebecca Park.
Investigators are not releasing information about the condition of the body or if a newborn baby has been found.
Joining Nancy Grace:
- Randolph Rice - Former Prosecutor and Current Criminal Defense & Civil Attorney at Rice Law, website: ricelawmd.com, IG, FB, X: @ricelawmd
- Dr. Shari Schwartz - X: @TrialDoc, Author: "Criminal Behavior" and "Where Law and Psychology Intersect: Issues in Legal Psychology"
- Dan Murphy - Former NYPD Detective-Sergeant, Joint Terrorism Task Force, Former Chief Security Officer, US Bancorp, Co-Host of "Gold Shields" Podcast, Author: “Workplace Safety: Establishing an Effective Violence Prevention Program”
- Joseph Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet," and Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan;" Instagram @JoScottForensic
- Allan Lengel - Editor of Deadline Detroit -(an online daily publication), Former Washington Post reporter
- Dave Mack - Investigative Reporter, ‘Crime Stories’
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, the desperate search goes on
for a baby after a young mom to be, Rebecca,
just twenty two years old, is found dead in a
heavily wooded area, her infant cut from her stomach. What
(00:24):
gules would do this? Can you say death penalty? Because
I can. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I
want to thank you for being with us.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Rebecca Park, a twenty two year old mother from Wexford County,
is eagerly anticipating the arrival of her third child. She
is a devoted mom of two young boys, but as
her due date approaches, Rebecca misses the birth of her
baby and vanishes.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
It's overwhelming. It's overwhelming to me. A twenty two year
old mom to be just days away from giving birth disappears,
her body found in a heavily wooded area. At first,
all we knew was the baby wasn't there. Now we
know the baby has been cut from her stomach, leaving
(01:11):
the mom to die bleed out in the woods. Where's
the baby? Straight out to Professor Forensic's death investigator Joseph
Scott Morgan joining US Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author
of Blood Beneath My Feet and start of a hit podcast,
Bodybacks of Joe Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, this is not
the first time we have seen this scenario, and you
(01:35):
and I both remember the first time it came to
the forefront of national headlines, and it was in the
Scott Peterson case when one of the theories that defense
attorney Mark gre Goes floated out there, I believe you
first put it out there on the Larry King Show
to just see test the waters and it bombed was
(01:56):
that someone had taken Lacy, had cut the baby out
of her stomach, Connor baby boy Connor, and that the
whole thing was about getting the baby and possibly selling
the baby. And we were all like, no, that would
never happen. That's too far fetched. Well, Joe Scott, it's
not too far fetched. So can a baby live when
(02:21):
it's there's I think Rebecca only had a few days
before she was set to deliver. Could the baby live
if it's cut out of the mom's stomach.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
Sure, you're talking about a mother that's the baby is
at a thirty allegedly at a thirty eight week gestational age.
That's well beyond survivability. You know, when you begin to
think about this, it's certainly possible, it's plausible that this
could happen.
Speaker 4 (02:46):
It.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
I got to tell you, Nancy, out of all the
cases that we've covered in recent memory, this is one
of the most horrific when you begin to think about
what she endured. So yes, with a child like this,
I have no other way to put it. You can
have ghoules, as you put it out there, that would
want to go and harvest a baby in order to
(03:07):
sell it on the market, and that can that is plausible,
I think, and I think that that's something that needs
to be explored in this case.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Scott, you cannot be more correct. Sadly, the case recovering tonight,
I've Rebecca set to give birth in just days, found
dead baby cut out of stomach. Is not the first
time this scenario has played out. I don't know if
you recall Michelle Wilkins. I remember listen.
Speaker 5 (03:33):
Codder sentenced Dinelle Lane to one hundred years in prison
for faking her own pregnancy than luring Michelle Wilkins into
her home and cutting wilkins almost full term baby out
of her womb.
Speaker 6 (03:45):
I've never seen a case as vicious, as cruel, as deliberate,
and as awful as this case.
Speaker 5 (03:51):
Because of Colorado laws, the majority of charges in this
case were related to Wilkins' injuries, not the harm inflicted
on the unborn child.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
That from C H H C V jy on TikTok
a perfect capsulation, But in this case, Michelle Wilkins actually
lived long enough to call nine one one. Listen address
of your emergency.
Speaker 7 (04:20):
Okay, what tell me what happened?
Speaker 8 (04:24):
Who cut you?
Speaker 1 (04:26):
I don't know?
Speaker 7 (04:27):
Okay, hangd on, hold on, please, there's okay.
Speaker 4 (04:35):
Who cut you?
Speaker 6 (04:37):
This girl.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
To Dave Mac joining me, Crime Stories investigative reporter Dave Mac.
I understand in that case, Michelle Wilkins had gone online
to a baby chat group. How did she meet her killers?
Dave mac?
Speaker 4 (04:56):
The killer actually lured her with maternity clothes. Come on buy,
I'll hook you up.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
You know.
Speaker 4 (05:02):
One of those things that happens in those chat rooms
is they're women who are going through the same thing
at the same time, and they quickly bond. And that's
how she lured her over and invited her into the house.
Up until the moment she's attacked. She thinks she's there
to pick up some maternity.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Clothes to Randolph Rice, adjoining us, a former prosecutor or,
current criminal defense attorney and civil lawyer at Rice's law,
what do you do? How do you defend gules like this? Now?
In this case, the mom lived, and all the other
cases we are covering tonight, the mom died, and in
(05:39):
many of them the baby died.
Speaker 9 (05:42):
My first question, Nancy, is is was this a natural
birth that somehow went wrong? And maybe maybe Rebecca Park
was trying to cut the baby out herself. That may
be a defense.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Okay, what did you just say?
Speaker 9 (06:00):
It's possible in this situation, as a defense attorney that
they may argue that this was somehow in natural birth
that Rebecca Park may have potentially tried to cut the
baby out herself.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
Randolph Rice, Okay, don't ruin your currently stellar reputation. Okay,
because to believe what you just said would mean that
Rebecca Park goes out in a heavily wooded area and
chooses the dirt on the ground to perform a self
(06:32):
induced cesarean section? Is that what your climbing would be
a great defense.
Speaker 9 (06:38):
I'm open to all defenses right now, Nancy, because I
just don't know enough information, and this is the thing
that the defense attorney has to explore. They're going to
have to figure out was this natural? Was this intentional?
Or is this caused by somebody else? And we don't
know who that somebody else may be because that person
may not be around or the victim. Rather, kids speak
and tell us who did this?
Speaker 1 (06:56):
If that's the case, Yes, because she's dead. To Allan
Lingle joining us, Alan, thank you for being with us tonight.
He's the editor at Deadline Detroit. It's an online daily
formerly with the Washington Post, Alan, again, thank you for
being with us. In response to what Randolph Rice said,
and please don't hold it against him because very often
(07:18):
defense attorneys are between a rock and hardspot. Okay, their
client is charged with murdering the mom. The mom is
lying out in a wooded area, densely wooded area, with
her stomach cut open. What else can he argue? Tonight?
They're looking for the baby, if it survived. Could you
(07:40):
describe for Randolph Rice the location where, Oh, my stars,
you just had to hit me with that. There's a sonogram.
There is Rebecca's sonogram for the baby boy, for her
little baby boy. She had already picked out the name
(08:00):
Richie Baby Richie. The name was discovered by friends of Rebecca's.
Richard Scott Lee was to be his full name. Is
he still alive, so you know, Alan Langele, if you
could explain to Randolph Rice the location where Rebecca's body
(08:25):
was found sliced open. I doubt very seriously that she
chose a heavily wooded area to give birth.
Speaker 7 (08:36):
She was.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
To top it.
Speaker 6 (08:36):
All, she was found in the Mannissee National Forest up
in northern Michigan, which is a beautiful area. People go there,
uh during the better during the summer months for canoeing, camping, fishing.
I mean, it's it's it's a beautiful place. It's a rural,
very rural area, and people from all around the state
(08:58):
and from Illinois in Ohio come, uh come up there
and in the winter they're skiing up that way. It's
a beautiful forest. I mean if but I mean the
I mean the fact it is just a punch a
little hole into that defense is that if if the
abortion or if the birth went wrong, why would you
(09:21):
leave the body? Uh and you know, abandoned the body there. Uh,
there's no you would call you would call for help.
You would call for emergency, you know, ems or whatever.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
Who would call for help an emergency? Are you talking
about the pregnant mother?
Speaker 6 (09:37):
But oh no, no, the people, if they will.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
I asked you to describe the location, sure where Rebecca died?
Was she bled out right? I don't even believe I'm
having this discussion, but I guess I have to under
Randolph Rice's theory that she voluntarily naturally gave birth or
plan to give birth out in this federal forest. Okay,
(10:04):
you're talking about how beautiful it is. Could you tell
me you were talking about camping and fishing and swimming.
What's the temperatary out there right now tonight, Alan Lingle.
Speaker 6 (10:16):
Tonight, it's probably, I mean up north there, it's probably
in the low teens. I mean right now, it's very cold,
and all of Michigan, and in northern Michigan it's usually colder,
so it's pretty pretty frigid weather there.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Alan, it's sixteen degrees at night where she was found.
I mean, you know what, let me go to doctor
Sherry Schwartz, the only other woman joining me tonight on
the panel. Doctor Sherry Schwartz forensic psychologists specializing in cases
just like this. She's ad panthermitigation dot com. She's a
prolific author, but one of them, and my favorite, it's
(10:57):
where law and psychology intercept doctor Sherry Schwartz. What woman
in her right mind would go out in sixteen degree
temperature and give birth in the dirt in the forest alone,
then realize she needs to see section and cut the
baby out. This is insane.
Speaker 10 (11:17):
It is insane, and only if she was actively psychotic
would she even entertain anything like that. But I haven't
heard any reports that she suffered from any sort of mental.
Speaker 11 (11:29):
Illness like that.
Speaker 10 (11:29):
Again, we don't have a lot of information, but that's highly,
highly unlikely.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
You know, we were talking earlier with Dave mac Joscott
Morgan about how one victim had been lured in one
of those online chat rooms about giving birth and that
is where her killers met her. But very often the
killer is someone known by the victim. Joscott, I don't
(11:57):
know if you recall another similar victim, Marlon a Choa Lopez.
Speaker 12 (12:01):
Listen, these two killed the pregnantine and cut the baby
out of her womb and took it for themselves. Marlin
Achoa Lopez was part of a Facebook group for pregnant
mothers and they were all kind of like a support
group with each other. She became friends with this lady
right here, name is Clarissa Figaroa. They became friends. They
came over for tea one day, so Ochoa Lopez went
over to Figaroa's for tea and that was the last
(12:23):
time everyone heard from her. Desire Figaroa is her daughter
on the right, and she helped murder this pregnantine and
cut the baby out of her womb.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
That is from here andersingh on TikTok, Joscott, I want
you to hear the rest of the fact. To Dave
mac these two invite the pregnant mom over for tea
and she ends up dead. What happened in that scenario.
Speaker 4 (12:48):
In this particular case, the pretense was they were offering
her free baby clothes. And you know, for many new
mothers that's a big priority. You've got to have child
clothing for the does get expensive, and so Mary Lincoln
was excited at the opportunity to get some free clothing.
That's how they got her in there.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
Back to you, Joe Scott Morgan, knowing what you now know,
I want to talk to you about what exactly happened
in the case in chief tonight, the search is ongoing
for her little baby Richie, if he survived, and I
would think that his body would have been found by
now if he had died in the process. Could you
(13:32):
explain to me how this happened. How would an amateur
or cceyrians section take place? And we have reason to
believe that Rebecca was alive when the baby, baby Richie,
was torn from her uterus.
Speaker 3 (13:50):
Yeah, Hey, that was a really beautiful area in Michigan there.
I've actually been there fishing before, one of the most
lovely areas in the United States. But I got to
tell you something, Nancy. You know what, I didn't see
a labor and delivery room. I didn't see an area
that is prepped in order to facilitate a cesarean. So
what are you going to do this with? Well, in
(14:10):
order to do this, I doubt that they're going to
show up with retractors. They're not going to have scalpels,
They're probably not going to have surgical scissors, these sorts
of things. So they're going to use tools at hand
that they have. We're talking about things like knives, that
you bring in from home, any kind of other cutting
instrument that might be available, and they're going to leave
(14:33):
her out there. They're going to take her at that
spot perhaps and extricate this baby from her womb. Now
they probably know enough that they're going to have to
keep her alive so that the child is going to
be viable. And that is a very, very tough passage
to go through, because if you do not have medical
(14:54):
training to facilitate this, you're not only going to have
a dead mom, you're going to have a dead baby
on your hand. If the the purpose of this is
to take this child and sell it on the market,
there's gonna be evidence that's left behind. Also, to go
back to this idea that this may have been some
kind of natural birth, we all know, for those of
us that are not in the medical field that I've
(15:16):
been present for the birth of all of my precious children.
We do know that if it's a vaginal delivery, you've
also got to push out the placenta. You're gonna be
looking for an umbilical cord, those sorts of things. So
you can kind of go back and examine the scene
from that perspective to see what is left behind. It's
not just what is taken, it's what's left behind. And
(15:38):
the trauma Nancy that she sustained out there on that filthy,
filthy ground in that beautiful forested area is something that
we cannot even begin to calculate.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
And joining me right now is Dan Murphy, former NYPD
detective sergeant. He was on the Joint Terrorism Task Force,
former chief security officer at US Bank Corp. And he
is the co host star of gold Shields podcast. He's
also an author. Dan You and I Joe Scott. Many
(16:09):
people on the panel tonight have cast iron stomachs. We
have to after what we've seen on crime scenes. But
I want to brace you for what you're about to
hear regarding the victim in the case and chief there
are two victims. There's Rebecca about to give birth twenty
(16:30):
two years old, and there's her baby, baby Richie. We
don't know where he is tonight. Okay, I want you
to hear what one of the witnesses says that has
seen the body, and brace yourself.
Speaker 7 (16:47):
I'm going to walk up to her and yes, the
animals have eight at her cheek, Her faces are there,
the animals stomach and so I don't think so, I
don't think I got this quote.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
I mean, whe it's okay, okay from Jack's s on TikTok,
Dan Murphy. Other than this beautiful girl, she's twenty two,
Dan about to give birth, just days away from giving
(17:21):
birth out there in the woods. Her stomach got it open,
and these witnesses are describing how there has been, as
Joe Scott likes to say, animal activity on her body.
To top it all off, animals have gotten to her
(17:43):
out in the wilderness that all of our guests are
describing these beautiful, idealic Federal forest. I can't see it
that way after what I know happened to Rebecca there.
But the way this girl was brutalized the one thing
I'm learning of note to the brutality that was inflicted
(18:07):
on this pregnant mom and b number one number two,
the baby's gone. The baby was not there. Somebody took
the baby, Dan Murphy, have you ever seen anything like it?
Including all your years at NYPD.
Speaker 13 (18:24):
This would have to be up there with the most
horrific the scenes I've ever seen, if not worse. Having
not seen images but hearing the descriptions is enough. This
is the stuff that makes even veteran detectives want to
have a drink or five on the way home afterwards,
because this is so you want to wash it out
of your brain.
Speaker 14 (18:43):
It's so horrible.
Speaker 3 (18:45):
This is what.
Speaker 13 (18:46):
Reminds you that um beings are capable of unbelievable, unfathomable
acts of violence against each other. This is one that
would stick with whoever was at that scene for the
rest of their lives.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
Dan Murphy, you, this is a kind of case that
makes you want to have one or five drinks after work.
I remember being so upset, distraught when I would leave
the courthouse. Of course I couldn't let a jury see.
I would have to pull my car over. I'd go
(19:19):
to the parking deck, load up all my stuff I
didn't dare leave in the courtroom, load everything up, get
in the car, drive away from the building, away from
the parking lot so no one connected to the case.
Then I would pull over and stop the car and
just feel sick or cry or just try to just
sit there and process what had happened. And that's how
(19:45):
I feel about what happened to Rebecca in this case.
And the baby is still missing.
Speaker 13 (19:50):
Dan, I can totally relate to what you talked about
as your experience, and I know a lot of people
can relate to it too, if you have children, if
you are a parent, if you care about the sanctity
of life. This is shocking to the core, absolutely shocking
(20:11):
to the core. And even just reading about this story
can give someone experience such as myself, chills. It's a
it's a a cold hard reminder of just how brutal
people can be to each other. And this is this
is a depth not reached often in terms of that cruelty.
Speaker 7 (20:30):
I'm going to walk up to her and yes, the
animals have eight adr cheeks, but the faces are there,
the animals.
Speaker 8 (20:36):
Stomach and there.
Speaker 7 (20:41):
I don't think so, I don't think I got I
got this quote. I mean it's.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
Okay. Bomb jack'sess on TikTok Crime Stories with Nancy Gray.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
Days before she is expected to give birth, Rebecca is
last scene stepping into a dark colored vehicle outside her
biological mother's home. Questions arise about who is behind the
wheel and where they take her?
Speaker 1 (21:16):
Number one, where is baby Richie? And number two? Who
did this? What ghoul? What depraved ghoul would take a
young mom to be just days away from giving birth
out into the wilderness and cut her stomach open, even
saying the words are shocking. And believe me, I'm not numb.
(21:39):
After all the cases I've investigated, prosecuted, and covered, I'm
not numb. But when you look at a case like this,
Joe Scott, I'm sure you agree with me. You have
to hold it together. You got to keep it together
to get through the probative. In other words, they mean
something facts and prove your case. In this case, holding
it together until you find the baby. Then you can
(22:03):
go home and fall apart, or as Dan Murphy said,
go have one or five drinks.
Speaker 3 (22:08):
Yeah, I agree with Dan that you have to. From
my perspective, you have to follow the science and stay
with it because if you look around you and you
look at what's before you relative to the humanity that
in dwells that space, it'll drive you to utter madness.
But the key here is going to be the science. Nancy.
I think you have to be relying upon that to
understand what happened to her. First off, I want to
(22:32):
understand what are the kinds of injuries might she have
had on her body, other than say, for instance, this
horrible incision that she's going to have over her lower abdomen.
I want to know if she was tortured in any way.
I want to know if she was compelled in any
way to wind up in this location. Was she beaten,
(22:52):
was she cut? Was she stabbed, was she shot? Was
she bludgeoned in any way? I want to try to
understand that, And there in is going to rest some
of the answers Nancy. Even in the state that she's in,
and if memory serves me correctly, we're talking potentially several
weeks down the road since she was last seeing alive.
Did you know, even as badly as she may have
(23:15):
been decomposed, we will still be able to figure out
these wound tracks relative to the hemorrhage that dwells these sites,
Because if there is hemorrhage, that's going to give us
an indication that she sustained anti mortem injuries. And plus
in the throes of having the baby removed, that's called
a perry mortem injury, there will still be hemorrhage there
(23:38):
and that will tell the tale.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
I mean, just got morgan to remove a baby in
this manner. Of course, when a propers is hearing is
done in the hospital. The cut is I don't know,
four inches, Maybe it's horizontal, w way low down on
your stomach. I imagine amateurs would do a vertical cut
(24:02):
from say the brawl line down to the pubic here,
just cut the stomach open. So if and I'm guessing
I'm hypothesizing that is the way they did it. If
they did make the vertical cut I'm describing, yep, wouldn't
that sever and artery? I mean, how long would she
(24:24):
have been able to live?
Speaker 3 (24:25):
There's multiple vessels that would be severed. And not to
mention if you go with this idea that it could
have been a vertical incision. Now you're talking about getting
into the bowel. Okay, just think about that because with
cesarean one of the reasons it's done more in a
southerly direction anatomically is you avoid that, all right? And
(24:46):
trust me, our medical professionals have been doing this for
years and years and years and years. They understand the
nature of the anatomy involved here. That's not something that
would be done in a clinical environment. So if you're
at a very rudimentary level, a barbaric level, that's what
you're going to be looking at. You're going to talk
about erupting a multitude of vessels in there. You're going
(25:09):
to be talking about damaging the bowl, which also has
its own blood supply. So yeah, she would bleed out
in this environment. That's really no surprise here. And I
think that when all is revealed, you're going to begin
to understand the horror that she endured during this event,
and there's really not going to be any words to
(25:29):
try to describe it. I think if and when the
scene makes it to trial, if it makes it to trial,
you're going to see something presented to a jury and
or to a judge that is going to shock them
to their core.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
Listen.
Speaker 8 (25:44):
And we just had them take us to whatever the
video that they wanted to show.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
Us, and.
Speaker 8 (25:51):
The sun or the young boy or the twenty year
old did not want the dad to go up and
ask if I could go up and see if it
was a mass or if it was really somebody and
it was Rebecca.
Speaker 14 (26:04):
November twenty fifth, on a trail directly behind the home
of biomm Bartholomew, a volunteer finds the body of Rebecca.
Investigators not releasing the condition of the body or if
a newborn has been found. Rebecca was expected to give
birthdays before her body was located.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
That from up North live. Let's start at the beginning tonight.
The search is on for Rebecca's baby boy, Richie, we
now know cut out of her stomach. How did this
whole thing start? Who is Rebecca? Listen?
Speaker 14 (26:38):
Child Protective Services called to save Rebecca from her biological mother,
Courdy Bartholomew. Placed with foster mother, Stephanie Park. When parental
rights are terminated, Stephanie adopts Rebecca. Rebecca flourishes in the
Park home and enjoys grandparents and extended family. Stephanie Park
knows Rebecca her mother is dangerous and tries to protect
Rebecca from reconnecting with her. Like many adopted children, Rebecca
(27:00):
is curious about her biological mother and the two reconnect
so too.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
Renowned psychologist forensic psychologist doctor Sherry Schwartz, Doctor Sherry Rebecca
came from an abusive home, but very early on CPS
did the right thing and removed her, put her in
a foster home, and the foster mom adopted her and
kept her, gave her a forever home. Even though she
(27:26):
was extremely happy growing up, she became curious about who's
my biomom? What is that? I don't know that I
understand it, doctor Sherry Schwartz. Because Rebecca had everything. She
had a loving family, grandparents, cousins, all the love a
(27:47):
baby could have, but she had a curiosity about her
biomom who couldn't give a fig about her, got abused
her and then gave her up. But yet she was
curious to find that bio mom.
Speaker 10 (28:03):
We all want to know where we came from, Nancy.
This is one of the fundamental biological drives to know
our roots, our ancestry. And in a case where a
child is given up pretty much at any age, or
the parent abandons them disappears, that drive is a bit stronger.
(28:25):
The kids want to know, you know, who is this
person and why did they give me up? It's natural
to think Rebecca maybe thought it had something to do
with her, So you want to talk to that person
if they're around, and find out why.
Speaker 4 (28:39):
You know.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
Randolph Rice is joining US former prosecutor, current criminal defense attorney,
and civil lawyer who founded Rice's Law. I know that
your firm has been involved with adoptions. It seems to
happen all the time that the child wants to go
back and find the bioparents. And I think Randolph the
doctor Shery hit it on the head. They somehow think
(29:02):
my mom gave me up because I fill in the blank,
I was a bad baby, She didn't want me. They
somehow blamed themselves. Have you ever noticed that? And there
is just an inherent desire to find that bio mom.
Speaker 3 (29:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 9 (29:18):
Typically the adoptions we handle the kids are very young,
but certainly as they get older, there is that curiosity,
the curiosity that they want to find out who their
parents are, who their backstory is, where'd that come from?
Speaker 3 (29:29):
Maybe?
Speaker 9 (29:30):
Who were my grandparents? And this is so important because
it fulfills that void that they're trying to fill in
life of trying to get that the answers is to
who am I?
Speaker 2 (29:39):
You know?
Speaker 1 (29:39):
I find it interesting to you, Dan Murphy, that the
adoptive mom has a premonition. She says, your biomm is trouble,
don't reconnect, don't do it. But yet Rebecca was hell
bent she wanted to find the biomm Have you ever
had cases I have where witnesses have had some sort
(30:02):
of a I don't know, an emotional or mental warning,
a premonition, so to speak, and it's poo pooed. Nobody
pays any attention to it.
Speaker 13 (30:14):
Nancy. Countless times I've dealt with victims of crime who've survived,
and I've seen cases where people haven't where their intuition
or their intuition for another person's protection has kicked in
and their radar has been going off and they've ignored it.
And many times I've had victims of crime tell me,
you know, from hospital beds, I had a feeling about
that guy. I don't know why I let him in
(30:35):
the door. I don't know why I did this. I
don't know why I did that. But our intuition exists
for one reason, and that's to protect us. Now, in
a case like this, a mother's intuition, even an adopted
mother's intuition is strong. She knows the history, and she
relayed that to her. Sometimes you have to let people
find their own way, but this is a case that
(30:56):
is not unusual to that extent. People feel that parents
feel it strongly for those they love, and we can
see things sometimes that people themselves can't.
Speaker 14 (31:05):
See, feeling contractions. At thirty eight weeks pregnant, Rebecca goes
to the hospital November two even though her due date
is not until November eighteenth. An exam reveals she's either
run Samarns. Rebecca has two thousand dollars cash he receives
as an inheritance from family in preparation for her baby.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
Her cell phone has discovered abandon along a desolate two
track road. Twenty one days after her disappearance, the unthinkable happens.
Rebecca's lifeless body is found in the remote depths of
Manisty National Forest.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
Dave Matt Crime Stories investigative reporter. There you go. That
shoots Randolph Rice's theory that she had a natural birth,
shoots it to Helen back, because who's going to go
through all that and their cell phone is not with them?
You know, Dave Matt, We've seen that over and over again.
(31:56):
I guess you recall Alex Murdock right the hyper while
a lawyer now convicted of murdering his wife Maggie and
son Paul. Remember Maggie's phone was found not far away
from her body was found, and it was proven through
his Alex Murdogg's NAB system. Remember that he was driving
(32:17):
away from the murder scene, slowed down, let down the
passenger side window throughout Maggie's cell phone, let the window
up and scratched off. That was probative where her cell
phone was found. Let's see another one. Kelsey Bareth remember
her killed by fiance Phrasy with the help of his mistress,
(32:41):
the Rodeo Queen. Her cell phone pinged hundreds of miles
away where the two had tried to make it look
like she just left town, leaving behind her little girl
to find for herself. So where the cell phone is found?
Dave Matt can sometimes be critical, but needless to say,
(33:01):
in this case, Rebecca did not have her cell phone.
It was abandoned.
Speaker 4 (33:06):
Correct it was, and it was abandoned not far from
where her bio mom's house is. And here's the part
that really bothers me, Nancy, because the phone was found
on the first day they began the real search for her.
And yet her body is found one hundred and fifty
(33:28):
yards from where her phone was, but we don't find
it for three weeks. It's in an area that's been searched.
I mean, think about it. If you're conducting a search,
you find her phone, you're gonna look all around.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
Crime stores with Nancy Grace and let me go this
to Alan Lingle joining us, the editor at Deadline Detroit
and Online Daily. Alan, I wonder if where her body
was found is a secondary or even tertiary crime scene.
In other words, was she killed somewhere else then dumped there,
(34:10):
because that's a lot of time to pass without her
body being found that close.
Speaker 6 (34:16):
Although I will say, having worked on the Child Levy
case when I was at the Washington Post, her body
was found at Rock Creek Bark. It wasn't till a
year later a guy was taking a walk through the
woods with his dog where the body was discovered. I
think it's for some reason in the forest, it's not
hard to, you know, have a body hidden for that long,
(34:38):
and particularly in the cold where I don't know enough
about it to say, but canines going through the woods
or stuff like that. I don't know if it's harder
when it's cold out, when the scent isn't the aroma
isn't out there, but I who knows, it's hard to say.
Speaker 1 (34:59):
I'm that's a good question, Alan Langle. When were ca
nines brought out right?
Speaker 6 (35:05):
That? Yeah, that is a good question. I mean, you
would think that's that standard procedure usually there's a search team.
A lot of times it's part of the community, part
of the police. But I can tell you in Chandra
Levy case, they sent out dozens and dozens of police
officers and cadets looking for the looking for the body,
(35:27):
and they did not find it. Could it have been moved.
It's very possible, and I think that was one of
the thoughts maybe with Chandra Levy, that maybe her or
she was killed somewhere else and then her body was
dumped there. I guess we don't know at this point.
I mean, it's interesting the theories by police. They seem
(35:48):
to have some pretty specific theories as to what happened
the scenario. So it makes me think somebody's cooperating. Somebody,
whether it's the actual people involved or somebody else, has
been cooperating in this.
Speaker 1 (36:01):
We don't know when canines were brought out to the scene,
but they did not hit on Rebecca's body, which is
leading to a lot of speculation she was killed in
one place, the dog searched, and then her body was
dump Then we begin hearing stories about Rebecca, heavily pregnant,
getting into a black vehicle with tinted windows at midnight
(36:24):
now remember the last time she was seeing She's with
her bio mom running errands and she's got two thousand
dollars with her. It's a family gift to prepare for
the baby. Now listen to this.
Speaker 15 (36:38):
Rebecca's fiance, Richard lee Fulor, is trying to get in
touch with Rebecca, but she is not answering or replying
to text. Knowing Rebecca has been shopping with her biological mother,
the Lura calls King Bartholomew, who says Rebecca got into
a black colored sedan with tinted windows just before midnight
and left. The Lura reports Rebecca missing with the Wexford
County Sheriff's Office.
Speaker 1 (36:58):
Dave Mac, I'm understanding that the fiance got that information
from Rebecca's bio mom, who was the last one known
to be with her exactly.
Speaker 4 (37:06):
He knew that Rebecca had been with her bio mom
shopping earlier that day. When he couldn't get her, he
called Bartholomew, who told him this story about the getting
in a car, a dark vehicle.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
But isn't it true, Dave Mac. The bio mom has
an alibi of sorts. Listen, she gave me.
Speaker 11 (37:25):
My meds at about eight forty. I don't remember a lot,
as I just said, but she was there when I
went to bed, and she was also there when I
woke up the next day. I know that she never
goes out on about when I'm sleeping, just because she
doesn't like to drive that night.
Speaker 1 (37:46):
Wait a minute, Randolph Rice, that's no alibi. The son
of the bio mom says he took Med's at eight
forty and didn't see his mom again until the next morning.
That's no alibi for the night Rebecca died.
Speaker 9 (38:01):
You're exactly right, Nancy, it's no alibi, but at least
establishes it somewhere on an eight forty that she's accountable,
and sometime the next morning she's accountable. The question is
going to become where was she between eight forty pm
and that next morning?
Speaker 1 (38:13):
Out of the blue, a surprise twist listened to Joanna Carey,
the Wexford County Prosecutor.
Speaker 5 (38:21):
This is the case of premeditated torture and murder.
Speaker 12 (38:24):
These two individuals created a plan conductive research.
Speaker 13 (38:28):
As for our follow you brought Rebecca to their home.
Speaker 1 (38:31):
They forced her into another vehicle and took her into
the woods, where they stabbed her, forced her to lie
on the ground while they cut her baby out, and
ultimately caused her death. There's been a lot of speculation
about potential motive. Of course, the state never has to
prove motive in a case like this or any case.
But to Dave Matt Crime Story's investigative reporter, apparently prosecutors
(38:55):
are speculating about a motive. What is it?
Speaker 4 (38:58):
It is that the Barthel Bradley that they had failed
at conceiving a child, that she had had multiple miscarriages,
and that she still wanted to have a baby talking
about Courtney Bartholome you here, and that they had not
been able to do that.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
You know, you really can't make that up, but believe
it or not, there have been other cases similar to
this with the same mudive and I'm referring specifically to
the case of Bobby ja Stint.
Speaker 16 (39:28):
The woman behind me is one of the most hated
people in Missouri. This is Lisa Montgomery and in twenty
twenty one, she was actually the first woman to be
executed by the US government in nearly seventy years because
she did something horrifically depraved. In two thousand and four,
Lisa drove to Missouri to meet Bobby Joe Stinnett, who
was thirty eight weeks pregnant at the time.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
That is from rate Review on TikTok, and she's rought
Lisa Montgomery cut the baby out of the victim. Bobby
Joe's Stennett, who was eight months pregnant, took the baby
and the baby lived. The baby girl is now a
teenager living with her father. Alan Lngle joining us from
(40:14):
Deadline Detroit. Alan, these two are under arrest right now.
Do you believe that there are any other parties involved
in the murder of Rebecca and you have reason to
believe that the baby is no longer alive?
Speaker 6 (40:32):
Explain well, I think the Attorney General Dania Essel here
in Michigan has put out a press release. She's working
with the county prosecutor, and she's put out a press
release saying that not only the mother is dead, but
the baby is dead. They seem to have a scenario
(40:52):
of what happened, what transpired, which tells me somebody is
cooperating and helping out because there's no I doubt there's
any video there in the National Forest there, somebody has
sort of laid out a scenario where they're able to
press charges and say what happened? So does somebody else
(41:15):
know about it? There's a very good possibility that somebody
else has been cooperating to sort of lay out the scenario.
Speaker 1 (41:23):
You know, it's amazing to me that other people could
stand by knowing this happened or was going to happen,
and did nothing to Joseph Scott Morgan. The baby, baby Ritchie,
has not been found. Ellie thinks the baby is dead.
Is there any way now we saw in the Montgomery
(41:45):
case the baby did live, Is there a way the
baby lived.
Speaker 3 (41:50):
Yeah, there's a possibility the baby live, we just don't
know how long. But here's the thing, Nancy, I think
that all we have to do is go back to
what the state prosecutor is saying here, because they're kind
of definitively saying that this neither too. And we know
the mom all right is deceased, but both of them
(42:12):
are not alive. So where is she coming up with
that information? I'm wondering if there was a witness to
this event, or somebody had actually that was involved in
this had stated it to somebody else, maybe in their
immediate circle, maybe somebody within the family you know, because
they're banging on about, well, we've tried and we haven't
(42:34):
had a baby, and you know, this is something we
really wanted. Well, if they're banging on about that, maybe
they're saying, well we tried again. Oh yeah, we try
to butcher my biological daughter and extract maybe from her,
and so that didn't work either. Did they make that
statement to somebody? The question is? The question is is
where is this child? And also how long, if any anytime,
(42:59):
does child survive outside of the womb, and what's the
status of the baby right now?
Speaker 1 (43:05):
If you know or think you know anything regarding the
death of Rebecca or anything about her missing baby, please
call Wexford Sheriffs two three one seven seventy nine nine
two one six. The investigation is on going. And now
(43:25):
we remember an American hero, Corporal James Chapman, Johnston, p D.
South Carolina, killed in the line of duty, leaving behind
a grieving wife and four children to be raised without
their father. American hero Corporal James Chapman. Nancy Gray signing
off advice man
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, the desperate search goes on
for a baby after a young mom to be, Rebecca,
just twenty two years old, is found dead in a
heavily wooded area, her infant cut from her stomach. What
(00:24):
gules would do this? Can you say death penalty? Because
I can. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I
want to thank you for being with us.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Rebecca Park, a twenty two year old mother from Wexford County,
is eagerly anticipating the arrival of her third child. She
is a devoted mom of two young boys, but as
her due date approaches, Rebecca misses the birth of her
baby and vanishes.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
It's overwhelming. It's overwhelming to me. A twenty two year
old mom to be just days away from giving birth disappears,
her body found in a heavily wooded area. At first,
all we knew was the baby wasn't there. Now we
know the baby has been cut from her stomach, leaving
(01:11):
the mom to die bleed out in the woods. Where's
the baby? Straight out to Professor Forensic's death investigator Joseph
Scott Morgan joining US Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author
of Blood Beneath My Feet and start of a hit podcast,
Bodybacks of Joe Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, this is not
the first time we have seen this scenario, and you
(01:35):
and I both remember the first time it came to
the forefront of national headlines, and it was in the
Scott Peterson case when one of the theories that defense
attorney Mark gre Goes floated out there, I believe you
first put it out there on the Larry King Show
to just see test the waters and it bombed was
(01:56):
that someone had taken Lacy, had cut the baby out
of her stomach, Connor baby boy Connor, and that the
whole thing was about getting the baby and possibly selling
the baby. And we were all like, no, that would
never happen. That's too far fetched. Well, Joe Scott, it's
not too far fetched. So can a baby live when
(02:21):
it's there's I think Rebecca only had a few days
before she was set to deliver. Could the baby live
if it's cut out of the mom's stomach.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
Sure, you're talking about a mother that's the baby is
at a thirty allegedly at a thirty eight week gestational age.
That's well beyond survivability. You know, when you begin to
think about this, it's certainly possible, it's plausible that this
could happen.
Speaker 4 (02:46):
It.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
I got to tell you, Nancy, out of all the
cases that we've covered in recent memory, this is one
of the most horrific when you begin to think about
what she endured. So yes, with a child like this,
I have no other way to put it. You can
have ghoules, as you put it out there, that would
want to go and harvest a baby in order to
(03:07):
sell it on the market, and that can that is plausible,
I think, and I think that that's something that needs
to be explored in this case.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Scott, you cannot be more correct. Sadly, the case recovering tonight,
I've Rebecca set to give birth in just days, found
dead baby cut out of stomach. Is not the first
time this scenario has played out. I don't know if
you recall Michelle Wilkins. I remember listen.
Speaker 5 (03:33):
Codder sentenced Dinelle Lane to one hundred years in prison
for faking her own pregnancy than luring Michelle Wilkins into
her home and cutting wilkins almost full term baby out
of her womb.
Speaker 6 (03:45):
I've never seen a case as vicious, as cruel, as deliberate,
and as awful as this case.
Speaker 5 (03:51):
Because of Colorado laws, the majority of charges in this
case were related to Wilkins' injuries, not the harm inflicted
on the unborn child.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
That from C H H C V jy on TikTok
a perfect capsulation, But in this case, Michelle Wilkins actually
lived long enough to call nine one one. Listen address
of your emergency.
Speaker 7 (04:20):
Okay, what tell me what happened?
Speaker 8 (04:24):
Who cut you?
Speaker 1 (04:26):
I don't know?
Speaker 7 (04:27):
Okay, hangd on, hold on, please, there's okay.
Speaker 4 (04:35):
Who cut you?
Speaker 6 (04:37):
This girl.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
To Dave Mac joining me, Crime Stories investigative reporter Dave Mac.
I understand in that case, Michelle Wilkins had gone online
to a baby chat group. How did she meet her killers?
Dave mac?
Speaker 4 (04:56):
The killer actually lured her with maternity clothes. Come on buy,
I'll hook you up.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
You know.
Speaker 4 (05:02):
One of those things that happens in those chat rooms
is they're women who are going through the same thing
at the same time, and they quickly bond. And that's
how she lured her over and invited her into the house.
Up until the moment she's attacked. She thinks she's there
to pick up some maternity.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Clothes to Randolph Rice, adjoining us, a former prosecutor or,
current criminal defense attorney and civil lawyer at Rice's law,
what do you do? How do you defend gules like this? Now?
In this case, the mom lived, and all the other
cases we are covering tonight, the mom died, and in
(05:39):
many of them the baby died.
Speaker 9 (05:42):
My first question, Nancy, is is was this a natural
birth that somehow went wrong? And maybe maybe Rebecca Park
was trying to cut the baby out herself. That may
be a defense.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Okay, what did you just say?
Speaker 9 (06:00):
It's possible in this situation, as a defense attorney that
they may argue that this was somehow in natural birth
that Rebecca Park may have potentially tried to cut the
baby out herself.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
Randolph Rice, Okay, don't ruin your currently stellar reputation. Okay,
because to believe what you just said would mean that
Rebecca Park goes out in a heavily wooded area and
chooses the dirt on the ground to perform a self
(06:32):
induced cesarean section? Is that what your climbing would be
a great defense.
Speaker 9 (06:38):
I'm open to all defenses right now, Nancy, because I
just don't know enough information, and this is the thing
that the defense attorney has to explore. They're going to
have to figure out was this natural? Was this intentional?
Or is this caused by somebody else? And we don't
know who that somebody else may be because that person
may not be around or the victim. Rather, kids speak
and tell us who did this?
Speaker 1 (06:56):
If that's the case, Yes, because she's dead. To Allan
Lingle joining us, Alan, thank you for being with us tonight.
He's the editor at Deadline Detroit. It's an online daily
formerly with the Washington Post, Alan, again, thank you for
being with us. In response to what Randolph Rice said,
and please don't hold it against him because very often
(07:18):
defense attorneys are between a rock and hardspot. Okay, their
client is charged with murdering the mom. The mom is
lying out in a wooded area, densely wooded area, with
her stomach cut open. What else can he argue? Tonight?
They're looking for the baby, if it survived. Could you
(07:40):
describe for Randolph Rice the location where, Oh, my stars,
you just had to hit me with that. There's a sonogram.
There is Rebecca's sonogram for the baby boy, for her
little baby boy. She had already picked out the name
(08:00):
Richie Baby Richie. The name was discovered by friends of Rebecca's.
Richard Scott Lee was to be his full name. Is
he still alive, so you know, Alan Langele, if you
could explain to Randolph Rice the location where Rebecca's body
(08:25):
was found sliced open. I doubt very seriously that she
chose a heavily wooded area to give birth.
Speaker 7 (08:36):
She was.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
To top it.
Speaker 6 (08:36):
All, she was found in the Mannissee National Forest up
in northern Michigan, which is a beautiful area. People go there,
uh during the better during the summer months for canoeing, camping, fishing.
I mean, it's it's it's a beautiful place. It's a rural,
very rural area, and people from all around the state
(08:58):
and from Illinois in Ohio come, uh come up there
and in the winter they're skiing up that way. It's
a beautiful forest. I mean if but I mean the
I mean the fact it is just a punch a
little hole into that defense is that if if the
abortion or if the birth went wrong, why would you
(09:21):
leave the body? Uh and you know, abandoned the body there. Uh,
there's no you would call you would call for help.
You would call for emergency, you know, ems or whatever.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
Who would call for help an emergency? Are you talking
about the pregnant mother?
Speaker 6 (09:37):
But oh no, no, the people, if they will.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
I asked you to describe the location, sure where Rebecca died?
Was she bled out right? I don't even believe I'm
having this discussion, but I guess I have to under
Randolph Rice's theory that she voluntarily naturally gave birth or
plan to give birth out in this federal forest. Okay,
(10:04):
you're talking about how beautiful it is. Could you tell
me you were talking about camping and fishing and swimming.
What's the temperatary out there right now tonight, Alan Lingle.
Speaker 6 (10:16):
Tonight, it's probably, I mean up north there, it's probably
in the low teens. I mean right now, it's very cold,
and all of Michigan, and in northern Michigan it's usually colder,
so it's pretty pretty frigid weather there.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Alan, it's sixteen degrees at night where she was found.
I mean, you know what, let me go to doctor
Sherry Schwartz, the only other woman joining me tonight on
the panel. Doctor Sherry Schwartz forensic psychologists specializing in cases
just like this. She's ad panthermitigation dot com. She's a
prolific author, but one of them, and my favorite, it's
(10:57):
where law and psychology intercept doctor Sherry Schwartz. What woman
in her right mind would go out in sixteen degree
temperature and give birth in the dirt in the forest alone,
then realize she needs to see section and cut the
baby out. This is insane.
Speaker 10 (11:17):
It is insane, and only if she was actively psychotic
would she even entertain anything like that. But I haven't
heard any reports that she suffered from any sort of mental.
Speaker 11 (11:29):
Illness like that.
Speaker 10 (11:29):
Again, we don't have a lot of information, but that's highly,
highly unlikely.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
You know, we were talking earlier with Dave mac Joscott
Morgan about how one victim had been lured in one
of those online chat rooms about giving birth and that
is where her killers met her. But very often the
killer is someone known by the victim. Joscott, I don't
(11:57):
know if you recall another similar victim, Marlon a Choa Lopez.
Speaker 12 (12:01):
Listen, these two killed the pregnantine and cut the baby
out of her womb and took it for themselves. Marlin
Achoa Lopez was part of a Facebook group for pregnant
mothers and they were all kind of like a support
group with each other. She became friends with this lady
right here, name is Clarissa Figaroa. They became friends. They
came over for tea one day, so Ochoa Lopez went
over to Figaroa's for tea and that was the last
(12:23):
time everyone heard from her. Desire Figaroa is her daughter
on the right, and she helped murder this pregnantine and
cut the baby out of her womb.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
That is from here andersingh on TikTok, Joscott, I want
you to hear the rest of the fact. To Dave
mac these two invite the pregnant mom over for tea
and she ends up dead. What happened in that scenario.
Speaker 4 (12:48):
In this particular case, the pretense was they were offering
her free baby clothes. And you know, for many new
mothers that's a big priority. You've got to have child
clothing for the does get expensive, and so Mary Lincoln
was excited at the opportunity to get some free clothing.
That's how they got her in there.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
Back to you, Joe Scott Morgan, knowing what you now know,
I want to talk to you about what exactly happened
in the case in chief tonight, the search is ongoing
for her little baby Richie, if he survived, and I
would think that his body would have been found by
now if he had died in the process. Could you
(13:32):
explain to me how this happened. How would an amateur
or cceyrians section take place? And we have reason to
believe that Rebecca was alive when the baby, baby Richie,
was torn from her uterus.
Speaker 3 (13:50):
Yeah, Hey, that was a really beautiful area in Michigan there.
I've actually been there fishing before, one of the most
lovely areas in the United States. But I got to
tell you something, Nancy. You know what, I didn't see
a labor and delivery room. I didn't see an area
that is prepped in order to facilitate a cesarean. So
what are you going to do this with? Well, in
(14:10):
order to do this, I doubt that they're going to
show up with retractors. They're not going to have scalpels,
They're probably not going to have surgical scissors, these sorts
of things. So they're going to use tools at hand
that they have. We're talking about things like knives, that
you bring in from home, any kind of other cutting
instrument that might be available, and they're going to leave
(14:33):
her out there. They're going to take her at that
spot perhaps and extricate this baby from her womb. Now
they probably know enough that they're going to have to
keep her alive so that the child is going to
be viable. And that is a very, very tough passage
to go through, because if you do not have medical
(14:54):
training to facilitate this, you're not only going to have
a dead mom, you're going to have a dead baby
on your hand. If the the purpose of this is
to take this child and sell it on the market,
there's gonna be evidence that's left behind. Also, to go
back to this idea that this may have been some
kind of natural birth, we all know, for those of
us that are not in the medical field that I've
(15:16):
been present for the birth of all of my precious children.
We do know that if it's a vaginal delivery, you've
also got to push out the placenta. You're gonna be
looking for an umbilical cord, those sorts of things. So
you can kind of go back and examine the scene
from that perspective to see what is left behind. It's
not just what is taken, it's what's left behind. And
(15:38):
the trauma Nancy that she sustained out there on that filthy,
filthy ground in that beautiful forested area is something that
we cannot even begin to calculate.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
And joining me right now is Dan Murphy, former NYPD
detective sergeant. He was on the Joint Terrorism Task Force,
former chief security officer at US Bank Corp. And he
is the co host star of gold Shields podcast. He's
also an author. Dan You and I Joe Scott. Many
(16:09):
people on the panel tonight have cast iron stomachs. We
have to after what we've seen on crime scenes. But
I want to brace you for what you're about to
hear regarding the victim in the case and chief there
are two victims. There's Rebecca about to give birth twenty
(16:30):
two years old, and there's her baby, baby Richie. We
don't know where he is tonight. Okay, I want you
to hear what one of the witnesses says that has
seen the body, and brace yourself.
Speaker 7 (16:47):
I'm going to walk up to her and yes, the
animals have eight at her cheek, Her faces are there,
the animals stomach and so I don't think so, I
don't think I got this quote.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
I mean, whe it's okay, okay from Jack's s on TikTok,
Dan Murphy. Other than this beautiful girl, she's twenty two,
Dan about to give birth, just days away from giving
(17:21):
birth out there in the woods. Her stomach got it open,
and these witnesses are describing how there has been, as
Joe Scott likes to say, animal activity on her body.
To top it all off, animals have gotten to her
(17:43):
out in the wilderness that all of our guests are
describing these beautiful, idealic Federal forest. I can't see it
that way after what I know happened to Rebecca there.
But the way this girl was brutalized the one thing
I'm learning of note to the brutality that was inflicted
(18:07):
on this pregnant mom and b number one number two,
the baby's gone. The baby was not there. Somebody took
the baby, Dan Murphy, have you ever seen anything like it?
Including all your years at NYPD.
Speaker 13 (18:24):
This would have to be up there with the most
horrific the scenes I've ever seen, if not worse. Having
not seen images but hearing the descriptions is enough. This
is the stuff that makes even veteran detectives want to
have a drink or five on the way home afterwards,
because this is so you want to wash it out
of your brain.
Speaker 14 (18:43):
It's so horrible.
Speaker 3 (18:45):
This is what.
Speaker 13 (18:46):
Reminds you that um beings are capable of unbelievable, unfathomable
acts of violence against each other. This is one that
would stick with whoever was at that scene for the
rest of their lives.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
Dan Murphy, you, this is a kind of case that
makes you want to have one or five drinks after work.
I remember being so upset, distraught when I would leave
the courthouse. Of course I couldn't let a jury see.
I would have to pull my car over. I'd go
(19:19):
to the parking deck, load up all my stuff I
didn't dare leave in the courtroom, load everything up, get
in the car, drive away from the building, away from
the parking lot so no one connected to the case.
Then I would pull over and stop the car and
just feel sick or cry or just try to just
sit there and process what had happened. And that's how
(19:45):
I feel about what happened to Rebecca in this case.
And the baby is still missing.
Speaker 13 (19:50):
Dan, I can totally relate to what you talked about
as your experience, and I know a lot of people
can relate to it too, if you have children, if
you are a parent, if you care about the sanctity
of life. This is shocking to the core, absolutely shocking
(20:11):
to the core. And even just reading about this story
can give someone experience such as myself, chills. It's a
it's a a cold hard reminder of just how brutal
people can be to each other. And this is this
is a depth not reached often in terms of that cruelty.
Speaker 7 (20:30):
I'm going to walk up to her and yes, the
animals have eight adr cheeks, but the faces are there,
the animals.
Speaker 8 (20:36):
Stomach and there.
Speaker 7 (20:41):
I don't think so, I don't think I got I
got this quote. I mean it's.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
Okay. Bomb jack'sess on TikTok Crime Stories with Nancy Gray.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
Days before she is expected to give birth, Rebecca is
last scene stepping into a dark colored vehicle outside her
biological mother's home. Questions arise about who is behind the
wheel and where they take her?
Speaker 1 (21:16):
Number one, where is baby Richie? And number two? Who
did this? What ghoul? What depraved ghoul would take a
young mom to be just days away from giving birth
out into the wilderness and cut her stomach open, even
saying the words are shocking. And believe me, I'm not numb.
(21:39):
After all the cases I've investigated, prosecuted, and covered, I'm
not numb. But when you look at a case like this,
Joe Scott, I'm sure you agree with me. You have
to hold it together. You got to keep it together
to get through the probative. In other words, they mean
something facts and prove your case. In this case, holding
it together until you find the baby. Then you can
(22:03):
go home and fall apart, or as Dan Murphy said,
go have one or five drinks.
Speaker 3 (22:08):
Yeah, I agree with Dan that you have to. From
my perspective, you have to follow the science and stay
with it because if you look around you and you
look at what's before you relative to the humanity that
in dwells that space, it'll drive you to utter madness.
But the key here is going to be the science. Nancy.
I think you have to be relying upon that to
understand what happened to her. First off, I want to
(22:32):
understand what are the kinds of injuries might she have
had on her body, other than say, for instance, this
horrible incision that she's going to have over her lower abdomen.
I want to know if she was tortured in any way.
I want to know if she was compelled in any
way to wind up in this location. Was she beaten,
(22:52):
was she cut? Was she stabbed, was she shot? Was
she bludgeoned in any way? I want to try to
understand that, And there in is going to rest some
of the answers Nancy. Even in the state that she's in,
and if memory serves me correctly, we're talking potentially several
weeks down the road since she was last seeing alive.
Did you know, even as badly as she may have
(23:15):
been decomposed, we will still be able to figure out
these wound tracks relative to the hemorrhage that dwells these sites,
Because if there is hemorrhage, that's going to give us
an indication that she sustained anti mortem injuries. And plus
in the throes of having the baby removed, that's called
a perry mortem injury, there will still be hemorrhage there
(23:38):
and that will tell the tale.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
I mean, just got morgan to remove a baby in
this manner. Of course, when a propers is hearing is
done in the hospital. The cut is I don't know,
four inches, Maybe it's horizontal, w way low down on
your stomach. I imagine amateurs would do a vertical cut
(24:02):
from say the brawl line down to the pubic here,
just cut the stomach open. So if and I'm guessing
I'm hypothesizing that is the way they did it. If
they did make the vertical cut I'm describing, yep, wouldn't
that sever and artery? I mean, how long would she
(24:24):
have been able to live?
Speaker 3 (24:25):
There's multiple vessels that would be severed. And not to
mention if you go with this idea that it could
have been a vertical incision. Now you're talking about getting
into the bowel. Okay, just think about that because with
cesarean one of the reasons it's done more in a
southerly direction anatomically is you avoid that, all right? And
(24:46):
trust me, our medical professionals have been doing this for
years and years and years and years. They understand the
nature of the anatomy involved here. That's not something that
would be done in a clinical environment. So if you're
at a very rudimentary level, a barbaric level, that's what
you're going to be looking at. You're going to talk
about erupting a multitude of vessels in there. You're going
(25:09):
to be talking about damaging the bowl, which also has
its own blood supply. So yeah, she would bleed out
in this environment. That's really no surprise here. And I
think that when all is revealed, you're going to begin
to understand the horror that she endured during this event,
and there's really not going to be any words to
(25:29):
try to describe it. I think if and when the
scene makes it to trial, if it makes it to trial,
you're going to see something presented to a jury and
or to a judge that is going to shock them
to their core.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
Listen.
Speaker 8 (25:44):
And we just had them take us to whatever the
video that they wanted to show.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
Us, and.
Speaker 8 (25:51):
The sun or the young boy or the twenty year
old did not want the dad to go up and
ask if I could go up and see if it
was a mass or if it was really somebody and
it was Rebecca.
Speaker 14 (26:04):
November twenty fifth, on a trail directly behind the home
of biomm Bartholomew, a volunteer finds the body of Rebecca.
Investigators not releasing the condition of the body or if
a newborn has been found. Rebecca was expected to give
birthdays before her body was located.
Speaker 1 (26:19):
That from up North live. Let's start at the beginning tonight.
The search is on for Rebecca's baby boy, Richie, we
now know cut out of her stomach. How did this
whole thing start? Who is Rebecca? Listen?
Speaker 14 (26:38):
Child Protective Services called to save Rebecca from her biological mother,
Courdy Bartholomew. Placed with foster mother, Stephanie Park. When parental
rights are terminated, Stephanie adopts Rebecca. Rebecca flourishes in the
Park home and enjoys grandparents and extended family. Stephanie Park
knows Rebecca her mother is dangerous and tries to protect
Rebecca from reconnecting with her. Like many adopted children, Rebecca
(27:00):
is curious about her biological mother and the two reconnect
so too.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
Renowned psychologist forensic psychologist doctor Sherry Schwartz, Doctor Sherry Rebecca
came from an abusive home, but very early on CPS
did the right thing and removed her, put her in
a foster home, and the foster mom adopted her and
kept her, gave her a forever home. Even though she
(27:26):
was extremely happy growing up, she became curious about who's
my biomom? What is that? I don't know that I
understand it, doctor Sherry Schwartz. Because Rebecca had everything. She
had a loving family, grandparents, cousins, all the love a
(27:47):
baby could have, but she had a curiosity about her
biomom who couldn't give a fig about her, got abused
her and then gave her up. But yet she was
curious to find that bio mom.
Speaker 10 (28:03):
We all want to know where we came from, Nancy.
This is one of the fundamental biological drives to know
our roots, our ancestry. And in a case where a
child is given up pretty much at any age, or
the parent abandons them disappears, that drive is a bit stronger.
(28:25):
The kids want to know, you know, who is this
person and why did they give me up? It's natural
to think Rebecca maybe thought it had something to do
with her, So you want to talk to that person
if they're around, and find out why.
Speaker 4 (28:39):
You know.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
Randolph Rice is joining US former prosecutor, current criminal defense attorney,
and civil lawyer who founded Rice's Law. I know that
your firm has been involved with adoptions. It seems to
happen all the time that the child wants to go
back and find the bioparents. And I think Randolph the
doctor Shery hit it on the head. They somehow think
(29:02):
my mom gave me up because I fill in the blank,
I was a bad baby, She didn't want me. They
somehow blamed themselves. Have you ever noticed that? And there
is just an inherent desire to find that bio mom.
Speaker 3 (29:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 9 (29:18):
Typically the adoptions we handle the kids are very young,
but certainly as they get older, there is that curiosity,
the curiosity that they want to find out who their
parents are, who their backstory is, where'd that come from?
Speaker 3 (29:29):
Maybe?
Speaker 9 (29:30):
Who were my grandparents? And this is so important because
it fulfills that void that they're trying to fill in
life of trying to get that the answers is to
who am I?
Speaker 2 (29:39):
You know?
Speaker 1 (29:39):
I find it interesting to you, Dan Murphy, that the
adoptive mom has a premonition. She says, your biomm is trouble,
don't reconnect, don't do it. But yet Rebecca was hell
bent she wanted to find the biomm Have you ever
had cases I have where witnesses have had some sort
(30:02):
of a I don't know, an emotional or mental warning,
a premonition, so to speak, and it's poo pooed. Nobody
pays any attention to it.
Speaker 13 (30:14):
Nancy. Countless times I've dealt with victims of crime who've survived,
and I've seen cases where people haven't where their intuition
or their intuition for another person's protection has kicked in
and their radar has been going off and they've ignored it.
And many times I've had victims of crime tell me,
you know, from hospital beds, I had a feeling about
that guy. I don't know why I let him in
(30:35):
the door. I don't know why I did this. I
don't know why I did that. But our intuition exists
for one reason, and that's to protect us. Now, in
a case like this, a mother's intuition, even an adopted
mother's intuition is strong. She knows the history, and she
relayed that to her. Sometimes you have to let people
find their own way, but this is a case that
(30:56):
is not unusual to that extent. People feel that parents
feel it strongly for those they love, and we can
see things sometimes that people themselves can't.
Speaker 14 (31:05):
See, feeling contractions. At thirty eight weeks pregnant, Rebecca goes
to the hospital November two even though her due date
is not until November eighteenth. An exam reveals she's either
run Samarns. Rebecca has two thousand dollars cash he receives
as an inheritance from family in preparation for her baby.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
Her cell phone has discovered abandon along a desolate two
track road. Twenty one days after her disappearance, the unthinkable happens.
Rebecca's lifeless body is found in the remote depths of
Manisty National Forest.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
Dave Matt Crime Stories investigative reporter. There you go. That
shoots Randolph Rice's theory that she had a natural birth,
shoots it to Helen back, because who's going to go
through all that and their cell phone is not with them?
You know, Dave Matt, We've seen that over and over again.
(31:56):
I guess you recall Alex Murdock right the hyper while
a lawyer now convicted of murdering his wife Maggie and
son Paul. Remember Maggie's phone was found not far away
from her body was found, and it was proven through
his Alex Murdogg's NAB system. Remember that he was driving
(32:17):
away from the murder scene, slowed down, let down the
passenger side window throughout Maggie's cell phone, let the window
up and scratched off. That was probative where her cell
phone was found. Let's see another one. Kelsey Bareth remember
her killed by fiance Phrasy with the help of his mistress,
(32:41):
the Rodeo Queen. Her cell phone pinged hundreds of miles
away where the two had tried to make it look
like she just left town, leaving behind her little girl
to find for herself. So where the cell phone is found?
Dave Matt can sometimes be critical, but needless to say,
(33:01):
in this case, Rebecca did not have her cell phone.
It was abandoned.
Speaker 4 (33:06):
Correct it was, and it was abandoned not far from
where her bio mom's house is. And here's the part
that really bothers me, Nancy, because the phone was found
on the first day they began the real search for her.
And yet her body is found one hundred and fifty
(33:28):
yards from where her phone was, but we don't find
it for three weeks. It's in an area that's been searched.
I mean, think about it. If you're conducting a search,
you find her phone, you're gonna look all around.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
Crime stores with Nancy Grace and let me go this
to Alan Lingle joining us, the editor at Deadline Detroit
and Online Daily. Alan, I wonder if where her body
was found is a secondary or even tertiary crime scene.
In other words, was she killed somewhere else then dumped there,
(34:10):
because that's a lot of time to pass without her
body being found that close.
Speaker 6 (34:16):
Although I will say, having worked on the Child Levy
case when I was at the Washington Post, her body
was found at Rock Creek Bark. It wasn't till a
year later a guy was taking a walk through the
woods with his dog where the body was discovered. I
think it's for some reason in the forest, it's not
hard to, you know, have a body hidden for that long,
(34:38):
and particularly in the cold where I don't know enough
about it to say, but canines going through the woods
or stuff like that. I don't know if it's harder
when it's cold out, when the scent isn't the aroma
isn't out there, but I who knows, it's hard to say.
Speaker 1 (34:59):
I'm that's a good question, Alan Langle. When were ca
nines brought out right?
Speaker 6 (35:05):
That? Yeah, that is a good question. I mean, you
would think that's that standard procedure usually there's a search team.
A lot of times it's part of the community, part
of the police. But I can tell you in Chandra
Levy case, they sent out dozens and dozens of police
officers and cadets looking for the looking for the body,
(35:27):
and they did not find it. Could it have been moved.
It's very possible, and I think that was one of
the thoughts maybe with Chandra Levy, that maybe her or
she was killed somewhere else and then her body was
dumped there. I guess we don't know at this point.
I mean, it's interesting the theories by police. They seem
(35:48):
to have some pretty specific theories as to what happened
the scenario. So it makes me think somebody's cooperating. Somebody,
whether it's the actual people involved or somebody else, has
been cooperating in this.
Speaker 1 (36:01):
We don't know when canines were brought out to the scene,
but they did not hit on Rebecca's body, which is
leading to a lot of speculation she was killed in
one place, the dog searched, and then her body was
dump Then we begin hearing stories about Rebecca, heavily pregnant,
getting into a black vehicle with tinted windows at midnight
(36:24):
now remember the last time she was seeing She's with
her bio mom running errands and she's got two thousand
dollars with her. It's a family gift to prepare for
the baby. Now listen to this.
Speaker 15 (36:38):
Rebecca's fiance, Richard lee Fulor, is trying to get in
touch with Rebecca, but she is not answering or replying
to text. Knowing Rebecca has been shopping with her biological mother,
the Lura calls King Bartholomew, who says Rebecca got into
a black colored sedan with tinted windows just before midnight
and left. The Lura reports Rebecca missing with the Wexford
County Sheriff's Office.
Speaker 1 (36:58):
Dave Mac, I'm understanding that the fiance got that information
from Rebecca's bio mom, who was the last one known
to be with her exactly.
Speaker 4 (37:06):
He knew that Rebecca had been with her bio mom
shopping earlier that day. When he couldn't get her, he
called Bartholomew, who told him this story about the getting
in a car, a dark vehicle.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
But isn't it true, Dave Mac. The bio mom has
an alibi of sorts. Listen, she gave me.
Speaker 11 (37:25):
My meds at about eight forty. I don't remember a lot,
as I just said, but she was there when I
went to bed, and she was also there when I
woke up the next day. I know that she never
goes out on about when I'm sleeping, just because she
doesn't like to drive that night.
Speaker 1 (37:46):
Wait a minute, Randolph Rice, that's no alibi. The son
of the bio mom says he took Med's at eight
forty and didn't see his mom again until the next morning.
That's no alibi for the night Rebecca died.
Speaker 9 (38:01):
You're exactly right, Nancy, it's no alibi, but at least
establishes it somewhere on an eight forty that she's accountable,
and sometime the next morning she's accountable. The question is
going to become where was she between eight forty pm
and that next morning?
Speaker 1 (38:13):
Out of the blue, a surprise twist listened to Joanna Carey,
the Wexford County Prosecutor.
Speaker 5 (38:21):
This is the case of premeditated torture and murder.
Speaker 12 (38:24):
These two individuals created a plan conductive research.
Speaker 13 (38:28):
As for our follow you brought Rebecca to their home.
Speaker 1 (38:31):
They forced her into another vehicle and took her into
the woods, where they stabbed her, forced her to lie
on the ground while they cut her baby out, and
ultimately caused her death. There's been a lot of speculation
about potential motive. Of course, the state never has to
prove motive in a case like this or any case.
But to Dave Matt Crime Story's investigative reporter, apparently prosecutors
(38:55):
are speculating about a motive. What is it?
Speaker 4 (38:58):
It is that the Barthel Bradley that they had failed
at conceiving a child, that she had had multiple miscarriages,
and that she still wanted to have a baby talking
about Courtney Bartholome you here, and that they had not
been able to do that.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
You know, you really can't make that up, but believe
it or not, there have been other cases similar to
this with the same mudive and I'm referring specifically to
the case of Bobby ja Stint.
Speaker 16 (39:28):
The woman behind me is one of the most hated
people in Missouri. This is Lisa Montgomery and in twenty
twenty one, she was actually the first woman to be
executed by the US government in nearly seventy years because
she did something horrifically depraved. In two thousand and four,
Lisa drove to Missouri to meet Bobby Joe Stinnett, who
was thirty eight weeks pregnant at the time.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
That is from rate Review on TikTok, and she's rought
Lisa Montgomery cut the baby out of the victim. Bobby
Joe's Stennett, who was eight months pregnant, took the baby
and the baby lived. The baby girl is now a
teenager living with her father. Alan Lngle joining us from
(40:14):
Deadline Detroit. Alan, these two are under arrest right now.
Do you believe that there are any other parties involved
in the murder of Rebecca and you have reason to
believe that the baby is no longer alive?
Speaker 6 (40:32):
Explain well, I think the Attorney General Dania Essel here
in Michigan has put out a press release. She's working
with the county prosecutor, and she's put out a press
release saying that not only the mother is dead, but
the baby is dead. They seem to have a scenario
(40:52):
of what happened, what transpired, which tells me somebody is
cooperating and helping out because there's no I doubt there's
any video there in the National Forest there, somebody has
sort of laid out a scenario where they're able to
press charges and say what happened? So does somebody else
(41:15):
know about it? There's a very good possibility that somebody
else has been cooperating to sort of lay out the scenario.
Speaker 1 (41:23):
You know, it's amazing to me that other people could
stand by knowing this happened or was going to happen,
and did nothing to Joseph Scott Morgan. The baby, baby Ritchie,
has not been found. Ellie thinks the baby is dead.
Is there any way now we saw in the Montgomery
(41:45):
case the baby did live, Is there a way the
baby lived.
Speaker 3 (41:50):
Yeah, there's a possibility the baby live, we just don't
know how long. But here's the thing, Nancy, I think
that all we have to do is go back to
what the state prosecutor is saying here, because they're kind
of definitively saying that this neither too. And we know
the mom all right is deceased, but both of them
(42:12):
are not alive. So where is she coming up with
that information? I'm wondering if there was a witness to
this event, or somebody had actually that was involved in
this had stated it to somebody else, maybe in their
immediate circle, maybe somebody within the family you know, because
they're banging on about, well, we've tried and we haven't
(42:34):
had a baby, and you know, this is something we
really wanted. Well, if they're banging on about that, maybe
they're saying, well we tried again. Oh yeah, we try
to butcher my biological daughter and extract maybe from her,
and so that didn't work either. Did they make that
statement to somebody? The question is? The question is is
where is this child? And also how long, if any anytime,
(42:59):
does child survive outside of the womb, and what's the
status of the baby right now?
Speaker 1 (43:05):
If you know or think you know anything regarding the
death of Rebecca or anything about her missing baby, please
call Wexford Sheriffs two three one seven seventy nine nine
two one six. The investigation is on going. And now
(43:25):
we remember an American hero, Corporal James Chapman, Johnston, p D.
South Carolina, killed in the line of duty, leaving behind
a grieving wife and four children to be raised without
their father. American hero Corporal James Chapman. Nancy Gray signing
off advice man
Host
Nancy Grace
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