July 29, 2025 • 52 mins
Manhunt underway in Arkansas after a mom and dad were killed at Devil's Den State Park in front of their young daughters in broad daylight.
Clinton David Brink, 43, and Cristen Amanda Brink, 41, were hiking with their two daughters, ages 7 and 9, on Saturday when the attack occurred. The parents are being hailed as heroes for protecting their little girls. According to police in a statement on Sunday, the Brinks' daughters were not injured and are "safe with family members."
Police have not given further details on how the couple died, but are asking for help in locating the killer. Police issued a statement urging local residents and park visitors to check personal devices for any cell phone videos, photos, security footage, or other materials from the day of the killings.
DESCRIPTION: Police describe the killer as a white man of medium build, wearing dark pants, a dark baseball cap, and sunglasses, as well as a black backpack and fingerless gloves. A composite sketch released Monday evening showed a man with dark eyes, stubble, and thin lips. The man was seen driving toward a park exit in a black vehicle, which might be a Mazda with a license plate covered by electrical or duct tape, police added.
Please do not approach anyone with this description. Call 911 or the Arkansas State Police at 479-751-6663.
Joining Nancy Grace today:
- Andrea Lewis - Partner at Searcy Law in Pam Beach, Florida, Former Felony Prosecutor at Palm Beach County State Attorney's Office - where Epstein was prosecuted, President of the Palm Beach County Bar Association, WEBSITE: searcylaw.com
- Dr. Jeff Gardere - Board Certified Clinical Psychologist, Professor at Touro College of Osteopathic Medicine in NYC, "America's Psychologist" (New York and Connecticut), and Contributing Author: "Practical Parenting: The Cause of Autism;" Instagram/X: @DrJeffGardere, Facebook.com/DoctorJeffGardere
- Ron Bateman - Former Sheriff for Anne Arundel County, Maryland, Former Homicide and Undercover Narcotics Detective. Ronbatemanbooks.com, Author of his Crime Trilogy, "Silent Blue Tears" (and currently directing and producing a film documentary on the murders at the Capital Gazette Newspaper in Annapolis); X: Ronbatemanbooks
- Chris “Turtle Man” Adams - Swamp Survival Expert and Environmental Educator; Facebook: Turtleman Chris Adams, Instagram: @GAturtleman
- Dr. Priya Banerjee - Board Certified Forensic Pathologist and Anatomic Pathologist, Anchor Forensic Pathology Consulting
- Ninette Sosa - Former Reporter at KNWA in Arkansas, Currently a Professor at the University of Arkansas; Instagram & X: @NinetteSosa
- Sydney Sumner - CRIME STORIES Investigative Reporter
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace Devil's Dan horror. A mom
and a dad both slaughtered trying to protect their little
daughters from the hiking trail killer. This as the FBI
joins in the manhunt. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.
(00:21):
I want to thank you for being with us.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
You guys, it's just as Devilston. You still a relative
hack the mail and a femail on Devilston hiking trail
and then took off from a small black sports car
with tables. Withe and we suspect the suspect of injuries
due to the witness seeing the.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Suspect, striking fear in every parent's heart. I just got
back from taking the twins hiking. These two parents with
their two little girls slaughtered at the Devil's Den State Park.
As we go to air a major update in a
search for the per that allegedly murdered a mom and
dad on a popular hiking trail, straight out to Crime
(00:58):
Stories investigative reporters Sydney Summer, what happened?
Speaker 3 (01:01):
Arkansas State Police just released a possible photo of the suspect. Unfortunately,
it's from behind, so we're just seeing the back of
his head.
Speaker 4 (01:10):
He's standing on.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
What looks like the edge of a cliff, looking out
over at an overlook, and the description matches what they
have been putting out there. He's wearing long black pants
a long sleeved black shirt. It looks like there's a
design on the black of the shirt. It looks like
it's a red square with blue filling the border. He's
carrying a black backpack and what looks like a duffel
(01:34):
bag and his baseball cap in a light can. He
does appear to have sandy blonde or light brown hair.
ASP didn't give us much information on where they got
this photo. Maybe another hiker on the trail who just
happened to catch the suspect in this position. And it's
now zoomed in in a better photo, so we're unsure
(01:55):
of where exactly they got this, but just so unfortunate
that it doesn't have his face.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
The parents were attacked and murdered with the children present,
With the children present, Why why attack these two loving
parents again? With me in all star panels straight out
to Dannette Sosa, she is joining us from Devil's Den.
They're in Arkansas formerly knw A Nanette, thank you for
(02:23):
being with us.
Speaker 4 (02:24):
What do we know at this hour?
Speaker 5 (02:26):
As far as the park is concerned, all the trails
are closed here at Devil's Den devil Den's State Park.
The police and FBI has now helped in this search.
Extra caution has been taken. More patrol is unseen. However,
we're only allowed through the exterior of the park. As
(02:48):
you can see, there are two entrances. This is one
entrance you see the sign behind me, and then there's
another more toward the north end of this Parkette.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
Did you just tell me there are only two entrance exits.
Speaker 5 (03:01):
It's a highway that runs through here. When I say
ingress and egress or entrances and exits, So you have
a main highway you come off, you have an option
to come off the main interstate, which is Interstate forty nine.
Then you take a smaller highway seventy four. Then that
will connect you to two highways here toward this particular park,
(03:23):
which is Highway two twenty or the Highway one seventy four.
So those are the two and they kind of they
can loop around and you can go on or off
through those highways.
Speaker 4 (03:36):
Right, Okay, that's important.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
I'm gathering that there are only two entrance exits formal
entrance and exits. But let me go straight out. Guys
joining me at the saying Devil's Dan State Park. Now
to an expert, Chris Adams, swamp survival expert, environmental educator.
You can find him at Turtleman on Facebook. Renowned survivalist. Chris,
(04:03):
you have studied the terrain and when I was asking
in that SOSA, are there only two entrants in exits?
The reason I'm asking that, obviously is because I want
to find out who is the perp and if he
did exit, those are the two formal entry and exits, right,
if he was by car, that's where we're going to
get an id on him. However, as you know from
(04:26):
working at multiple state parks, and some of them extremely
extremely tough terrain, you can walk in and out of
a state park practically anywhere, right, Chris Adams.
Speaker 6 (04:38):
If you know how to get in and out of
a place, you can get in and out fairly easy.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
Let's go back to that last shot where it was
describing the terrain. Guys, you are seeing the entrance and
exit and it looks pretty idyllic, but the terrain is
actually very very difficult. Chris Adams, familiar with this terrain,
Describe it for me, Chris, this guy, if he did
not leave so one of the formal entry exits, which
(05:02):
we believe he did, but we don't know that.
Speaker 4 (05:04):
What would he be up against now?
Speaker 1 (05:07):
Crooked steep, no through trucks, RV trailers, only certain links
he can go in because of the terrain.
Speaker 4 (05:14):
Tell me about the terrain, Chris Adams.
Speaker 6 (05:15):
Well, unlike my home, it is anything but flat. I
mean there's rock formations, there's caverns, there's creeks, wooded areas,
even waterfalls. You know, that's the perfect area for disaster
if you're walking through there and roll an ankle. I mean,
you've got to know the terrain to be able to
navigate the terrain, and this is not easy terrain to
(05:36):
navigate by any means.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
I'm glad you said that, Chris Adams joining me now,
Ron Bateman, former sheriff at inn Arunda County in Maryland,
former homicide and undercover narc You know, Ron, you're especially
equipped for today because you studied and worked the Rachel
(05:59):
Warren Hiker trail murder. And what Chris Adams just said
is extremely important. Did this guy know the area, much
like Delphi where Abby and Liberty were murdered on a
local trail, nobody would know about it unless you were
from there. I suspect this guy knew the terrain really well,
(06:24):
and like in the case of Rachel Moore, and that
we were just showing on the mom pawtrail that guy
lay in.
Speaker 4 (06:31):
Wait.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
That's what I think about this guy. Why do I
care because maybe somebody saw him way in?
Speaker 4 (06:37):
What do you think about this perp lying in wait?
Speaker 1 (06:39):
A mother and a father did, leaving behind three girls,
one a team and two eaty beatty children little to
grow out without mom and dad.
Speaker 4 (06:49):
What do you think, Ron?
Speaker 7 (06:51):
It's horrible And that's the first thing I thought of
when I read this case. About Rachel Maren's case. There's
so many ways to get in and out of that
woods to the mom Pop trail as it is for
this situation here. Yeah, there might be two formal ways
in and out, but I'm sure there's numerous ways. Like
Chris just said, if you know the terrain, you're going
(07:12):
to get in and get out. So I'm sure this
guy knew where he was going and knew what he
planned on doing. And then Nick carried out his acts.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
And the point of that, angew Lewis is joining me,
high profile lawyer, partner Sirce law, former felony prosecutor area.
The point is, I'm onto finding this guy. I think
a he knew the terrain really well. Like Chris Adams
is pointing out, I think he lay in wait, which
gives me a bid on who may have seen him,
(07:45):
What time did he get there, and why did he
identify these two? You know, it's really raaring. You've tried
a lot of cases, as have I. For one person
to take on two adults and he leaves the children,
the children live, they go running, screaming at the top
of their lungs, their witnesses. Do I like putting children
on the stand?
Speaker 8 (08:05):
No?
Speaker 4 (08:05):
I don't. Do you do it when you have to, Yes,
you do.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
But for one guy to take on two adults very peculiar,
and I believe he had to know the terrain.
Speaker 4 (08:17):
Andrea Ninta, You're exactly right.
Speaker 9 (08:20):
And if you look at the photographs of the husband
and father, he does not appear to be a relatively
small man. So this guy not only did he know
what he was doing, not only was he there prepared
but he took on somebody that likely had some force
and ability to fight back. Now, you bring up a
very good point, right, which is what was the motive here?
Speaker 5 (08:44):
And two?
Speaker 9 (08:46):
Was the Were the parents the intended target? We know
he certainly intended to kill them, but was he actually
after the two young girls similar to a Delphi type
situation where he may have been actually looking for young
girls to prey upon. We don't know yet, but this
whole thing is very unusual and absolutely a horrific rime.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Angela Lewis, you say something like that and you expect
everybody to just go to sleep tonight, put their head
on the pillow and have sweet dreams. Now, we've heard
over and over Andrew. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm
not saying you're wrong at all, Because what we keep
hearing is they died, mom and dad did on a
hiking trail, and we keep hearing trying to protect their
(09:33):
daughters that had to come from somewhere. We're not hearing
they died because they were robbed, or they died because
like Rachel Moren, she was brutally sex attacked on the
man pawtrail. We're not hearing any of that, but we
are hearing they died trying to protect their daughters, and
(09:54):
that brings in what you just said, a blood curdling
thought that the part was trying to get the girls
and the parents fought back and told the girls to
run like any parent would do.
Speaker 9 (10:05):
Andrea, you know, and Nancy is horrible and just unfathomable.
It is to really picture that it fits what we're
seeing here, because what we know, whether it be from
witnesses or maybe even the girls themselves, is that they're
reporting that he was injured. So certainly, if mom and
dad know that this predator is coming after these young girls,
(10:28):
they're going to fight for not only their own lives,
but also for their children. And you can certainly see
a circumstance where the parents injure him tell the girls
to run, as you just noted, and that would really
explain exactly what we're hearing from investigators now. Only time
will tell. Certainly there are other motives, but that is
certainly a chilling one that investigators will have to rule out.
Speaker 4 (10:52):
Doctor Jeff Gardier is joining us. You know him well.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
We have been analyzing cases together since I know for
a fact nineteen ninety seven clinical psychologist Professor Truro College
of Osteopathic Medicine called America's psychologist, Doctor Jeff. You and
I have studied so many cases, and when we were
(11:16):
covering a case together at court TV, we talked about
parents that tell their children that turn and attack the
attacker and tell.
Speaker 4 (11:25):
The children run.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
And the more we're analyzing this case, the more that's
becoming a parent. The two little girls did that, they ran,
doctor Jeff, and I think it is a child this young, anyway,
impulse to stay with the parents, even though the parents
are getting slaughtered.
Speaker 4 (11:46):
They'll stay right there.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
They might scream, they might run around, but they won't
leave unless they're told run.
Speaker 4 (11:53):
And that is what parents are told.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
They're instructed to tell their children if the family's under attack.
I told my children that when they were little, and
I still tell them that if anything happens, run, leave
your father and I leave me, and run and go
get help, in other words, get to safety. Do you
think that's what happened, Doctor Jiff.
Speaker 10 (12:15):
There is quite that possibility, Nancy, And you're absolutely right.
When we tell our kids to run, it's for their
own safety, but it's also to get help. And what
we're seeing here is there is the possibility that this killer,
whether premeditated or not, was an individual with this kind
(12:36):
of struggle going on, who was acting with intense emotional state,
rage or frustration, and that was also very scary to
the children. But that impulse of the parents to protect
their children by any means, of course, is admirable and
what we want to see in parents. They sacrifice their lives,
(12:58):
it seems. Here.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
Back to our special guest Chris Adams aka Turtleman, who
is a wildlife survivalist. Chris, we are learning that the
little girls said said that they ran until they couldn't
(13:22):
hear their mom screaming anymore. Now it was and in
that so, so we'll jump in if I've got this wrong.
It was about a mile to the visitor center. What
does that mean? The purp could have been watching them,
could have followed them in and tell them for a mile.
But more importantly, these two little girls ran for a mile.
Speaker 4 (13:48):
Two little girls ran under the.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
Age of ten, ran for a mile in this terrain, Chris,
hearing their mother screaming, And we believe they were running
down hill over all the rocks and the ups and
the downs and the cracks, in the surface. What would
that have been like for little children in this terrain running?
Speaker 6 (14:16):
Firstly, that's horrific and not only so unnerving considering I worked,
you know, in wild lands all across the southern part
of Georgia here, but the terrain in that type of area,
I mean it cuts and I can only imagine, you know,
an adult trying to do that. But two children, their
legs are smaller, They're not getting enough you know, windage
(14:38):
running like that, They're wearing themselves out, tripping, stumbling, falling.
I mean, it would cut them up pretty bad, or
at least bruise them up. And in the temperatures like
it's been, the highs out there have been in the
mid to lower nineties, and I can't imagine what the
humidity has been like. But any amount of time running
(15:00):
in that heat, it'd wear a little child out very easily.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
Right now, the FBI joining in the search. I want
this guy found. I want him brought to justice. You
don't think these two little girls are going to hear
their mother's screams for the rest of their lives every
time they go to bed.
Speaker 4 (15:25):
They will.
Speaker 5 (15:27):
We're all sweeping the trail. Me and I've got a
person with me.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
First state, he is trying to locate the family.
Speaker 11 (15:36):
Here, still calling for help. We're hiding down Therefore, we're
hearing the perie before again into the lower part of
the Devil's Entrail, try.
Speaker 5 (15:44):
To relate to the author and we found the victims
down here.
Speaker 6 (15:47):
They're on the lower Devil's Entrail bodies.
Speaker 12 (15:51):
Authorities believe Arkansas mom and dad fought for their daughters'
lives in a brutal attack in Devil's Den State Park
that leaves both parents dead.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
We are live at Devil's Den State Park, the slaughter
of a mother and father, we've been told, protecting their
own children joining us there at Devil's Den. And that's so,
said investigative reporter, but also with US crime stories, investigative
reporter Sidney Sumner, I'm hoping, based on what we've heard
(16:21):
that the purp was in fact injured. Why do we
think that is there a glimmer of hope that we've
got the purpse blood or DNA, be a skin blood anything.
Speaker 13 (16:35):
Well, Nancy, we have very little information on what exactly
happened to these parents to this perpetrator.
Speaker 8 (16:43):
So we have some.
Speaker 13 (16:45):
Reports from nine to one one operators who took the
call from police dispatch radio that one of these little
girls saw their father stabbed by this suspect. So we
don't know exactly what they saw, but I think police
are on this theory that the suspects had a nice
(17:05):
he attacked these parents, and those parents were protecting their
children and they were not going to go down without
a fight and make sure that this perpetrator did not
attack their two little girls.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
So I think.
Speaker 13 (17:17):
Police believed that this suspect may have defensive wounds from
the parents who were trying to fight him off.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
Yann would go for a white male suspect wearing black gloves, sunglasses,
or colored pants or to witness direction of travel was
quotes and laid across a bridge leaving Devil's Den and
stayed on the highways. Quote.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
Okay, this is what we know about the perp. What
he looked like. We believe white male, black gloves, sunglasses,
dark pants, long sleeve shirt rolled up.
Speaker 4 (17:50):
Interesting.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
The only way his face is covered is with sunglasses.
Speaker 4 (17:54):
We're not hearing about a hat.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
We've also heard he had dark blonde to light brown hair.
Speaker 4 (18:02):
Learning more at this hour, listen.
Speaker 14 (18:04):
First responders here screams and calls for help. By the
time they reach the victims on the trail, it's clear
the victims are deceased, no sign of their attacker. Officers
quickly clear the trail, speaking with hikers as they exit
the park to piece together what happened. Several hikers remember
passing the family and many others on the trail, but
a few point out there was only one person they
(18:26):
saw alone on the trail that day, A medium build,
white man wearing dark clothes, a ball cap and sunglasses
with dark blonde or light brown hair.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
That's that's going to be.
Speaker 13 (18:37):
A white man wearing light gloves and light with a
dark colored cans and a dark color came off car
plate direct travel.
Speaker 8 (18:49):
One of us were leaving the other again and stayed
on the highway.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
Curious, I'm hearing an inconsistency. Some reports state that the
part pat on long long sleeve shirt with the slaves
rolled up there.
Speaker 4 (19:00):
P We're hearing police.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
Dispatch state that he had on a tank top. Very
curious that there would be a knife attack and the
kind of heat that Chris Adams is describing wearing a
tank top. Let's think that through. Is that how he
was injured, joining me an all star panel. But now
(19:23):
to doctor Pria Abanergy Board certified forensic pathologist, anatomic pathologist,
Doctor Priya, thank you for being with us, doctor Priya.
We're told that the purp was injured. There's got to
be evidence of that. It's got to be blood, got
(19:43):
to be explain how would we know looking at the victims'
bodies that the PURP had been injured. Great question.
Speaker 15 (19:51):
I think that's where the money is. That this is
a stabbing up post and personal, and I mean just
breaks my heart as a girl mom too of a
ten year old.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
That they witnessed this.
Speaker 15 (20:02):
So this was not just a single stab. It sounds
like a very violent altercation. So we need to look
at the victims hands, look for defensive wounds and what's
the state of their nails, if there's any debris under them,
and rush that evidence.
Speaker 4 (20:16):
That is going to be where the DNA is.
Speaker 15 (20:18):
You know, they didn't give up, they fought back to
save their kids, and really that's where any sort of
DNA is going to be. Even I've even swabbed hands
at autopsy to try to get touched DNA or residual
any blood drops. You look to see if there's any
vertical blood drops like with the spatter pattern, to make
(20:39):
sure and see if potentially you can identify whether it's
victim's blood or what I'm hoping is injured assailant's blood
on clothing whatnot. And that's where the money will be for.
Speaker 4 (20:51):
The DNA crime stories. With Nancy Grace.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
Two Ninette so So joining us from Devil's Den State Park,
we are also learning that the two little girls, just seven.
Speaker 4 (21:11):
And nine, who were running for their lives.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
Say the perps stabbed their dad and their mom yelled
at them to run as far and fast as they
can for help, and they heard the mom asking why
are you doing this and start to.
Speaker 8 (21:28):
Scream exactly Nancy. That is what was reported with the
mother in distress telling and trying to save her girls,
telling them to run, and when they did run, they
made up with their life. About a mile away from
where the attack happened. Reports state that his parents were
(21:49):
found on the walking trail.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
Doctor Jeff Guardier with US clinical psychologists and Professor Doctor
Jeff the brazen nature of the attack, and I'm gonna
circle back to Ron Bateman, same thing in the Rachel
Morn case. Doctor Jeff, we know that there were other
people on the trail, other adults. In fact, these two
(22:11):
little girls seven and nine, were running. They could hear
their mom screaming in the background. They saw their dad
get stabbed. As of now, they have not identified the
purp so it's not someone known to the little girls.
But if there were other people on the trail, this
guy has balls.
Speaker 4 (22:33):
The size of coconuts.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
I mean, he's on the trail, can get caught, and
he attacks with a knife. Anyway, the girls say they
saw dad getting stabbed. That's where we're getting the idea
that this was a stabbing, which, as you heard earlier
from doctor Priya, is up close and personal. As she
describes it, it's a whole nother mindset to stab somebody dead.
(22:56):
It's not like a sniper in the distance taking a
long shot. This is somebody fighting with you, grappling with you, screaming,
trying to get away, trying to attack you, and you
keep stabbing repeatedly. And the brazen nature of doing this
on a trail where there's a lot of people.
Speaker 10 (23:15):
So this is a person who probably waited to make
sure that the trail was empty and only the parents
and the children were there. That's number one. Number two
the fact, Nancy, as you so aptly said here, this
was with a knife and not a gun. So as
doctor Priya would agree, I would think that this is
(23:36):
about a very personal attack, even if he didn't know
the individuals. Someone wants to violate a family in every
way possible by striking terror into their hearts and that
of the children. And one last point here that the
father perhaps was stabbed first, but the mother may not
(23:58):
have just been fighting on off this individual, but also
trying to keep that individual from chasing after the children.
And therefore whatever fighting she was doing was to protect herself,
but at the same time to also try to contain
this individual long enough for the children to get away.
Speaker 12 (24:19):
What's supposed to be a memorable family hike ends in
a brutal tragedy when the bodies of a mom and
dad are suddenly discovered in Arkansas State Park.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
As soon as this went public late last night, social
media went.
Speaker 4 (24:34):
Wild, and we're learning a lot. Listen.
Speaker 16 (24:37):
Social media accounts are flooded with comments and accounts from
visitors to Devil's Den State Park on Saturday, and one
mother is convinced her family passed both the brinks and
their possible killer. On Devil's Den Trail. The mom says
she and her five children ran into a family of
four at a steep rock wall and exchanged pleasantries with
the parents as they helped their daughters down. Not long after,
(24:58):
the mom decided to turn and ran it to someone
else at the same rock wall. This man was not
interested in small talk and did not meet her eyes
when she said excuse me on her family's behalf. The
mother noticed that the man was also dressed oddly for
the hot weather, wearing a dark long sleeve shirt.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
Straight out to Chris aka Turtleman Adams, survivalist experts to
find him on Facebook Turtleman Chris Adams, Chris, we heard
it first that the pert was wearing a tank top,
which would have been appropriate in this weather, as you
pointed out, But why would you expose your bare arms,
(25:38):
neck and chest in that way for stabbing? Then social
media finds out about the murders and goes wild.
Speaker 4 (25:46):
A woman actually writes.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
In that she turned back and she sees this guy
wearing a dark long sleeve shirt and that struck her
as odd. The weather explained, what would a normal hiker
be wearing at Devil's Den.
Speaker 6 (26:06):
An average hiker anywhere really at this time of year
in the summer would be wearing those fishing net shirts.
You know, breatheable. You want your skin covered for the
most part. Down in those canyons and caverns. If you're
in broad sunlight, it can get brutal. But some will
wear things like tank tops and things of that nature.
But my take on the whole hoodie thing is perhaps
(26:29):
he had the hoodie on, took it off and he
was seen in a tank top or vice versa. If
he attacked them with a tank top on, he could
have well just put it on afterwards, the hoodie to
cover up any wounds on his arms, you know.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
To Ron Bateman joining us former sheriff at Anne Arundel County,
Maryland who extensively investigated the Rachel Moore in case, and
we keep bringing up Rachel Moore and a mother of
five just like this mother is a mother of two.
She was hiking solo, and I think Ron, it was
(27:04):
early in the morning when she was hiking that said
her boyfriend realized she didn't come home in time and
starts searching finds her car at the trailhead and then
discovers her body. Of course he became state suspect number one.
It's the love interest. He finds the body. It wasn't him.
(27:24):
It was a purp, an illegal immigrant in this country
who had already attacked people. A young girl in La
in her own home that said Ron Bateman in this case,
did you hear what Chris Adams was saying? The purp,
first believed to be wearing a tank top, was on
this hot trail. According to the eyewitness who went back
(27:46):
with her children, he wouldn't do any small talk. They
walked past him, and the moment excuse me on behalf
of her whole family. He wouldn't speak, wouldn't look her
in the eyes. And he was dressed nick to wrist
to foot right. That's not normal.
Speaker 7 (28:02):
No, it's not normal. And you know it goes into
the subject of was he lying in wait, and which
we can talk about extensively because of other things that
we know.
Speaker 4 (28:11):
But if I could real quick go back.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
To it, do it, because you know what I want
to hear. If you think he was lying in wait,
I want to hear all the reasons why, because that
will help me identify a suspect.
Speaker 7 (28:22):
Okay, great, So let's talk about what something doctor Prias
said real quick. I can't let it go. Yes, about
the DNA underneath the fingernails a skin, Yes, that is
super important. I investigated a double murder involving the suspect
using a knife in a wooded area in the past,
and one of the things when you're processing a scene
outdoors is extremely difficult because you don't have area where
(28:46):
you're going to find fingerprints. But what you do have
a lot of times, it's not unusual during a night.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
Time stop stop, stop stop, Ron Bateman. Hey, you can't
just drop a bomb on us like that, a fact bomb.
You're totally correct, But explain to everybody why an outdoor
scene is so hard to process. I mean, in Rachel Mooren,
you found a pool of blood near the body and
she had been raped, brutally sex assaulted. So we got
(29:14):
DNA matching up to an unknown perp. But it's really
hard to process an outdoor scene. Explain why what are
you going to get a fingerprint off a tree? It's
hard exactly.
Speaker 7 (29:24):
Outdoor scenes are so difficult, especially if it ends up
braining during the course of your processing. But it did
in this case. But what you're looking for in a
scene in the outdoors or a footprints if you have
some kind of soil that's strong enough to hold a footprint.
But in the case of a stabbing, it's not unusual
(29:44):
for the assailant to be injured because of some kind
of struggle that took place. So therefore you're really looking
honing in for blood, and they may have found blood
away from the bodies as the suspect was fleeing the area.
That's what I would say is probably going to happen
in this case because Clinton Brick is a pretty big dude,
(30:06):
and he's going to put up a fight for his family,
especially with a knife, and so I wouldn't be surprised
if the suspects injured and that was found as a
part of the process and processing of the scene.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
Okay, Bateman, everything you just said is correct, except and
it's still correct, But the likelihood they're going to get
a footprint on a trail slim to none. Everything else,
I'm down with it. I mean, Chris Adams, how are
you going to get a footprint off a trail like
(30:38):
this unless it's been wet and you can actually see
for instance, the tread on the bottom of the shoe.
Speaker 4 (30:45):
Otherwise it's just not going to happen.
Speaker 6 (30:47):
Even for a good tracker, it's going to be difficult.
You know that the part said there were very few
visitors the last few days, but that doesn't mean there
wasn't an influx of people a week before. I don't
know if it's rained or if it hasn't, but those
footprints set pretty quickly. Now off trail, you may be
able to find one much easier. Your average crowd is
(31:09):
going to stick to that trail, but this all happened
on a trail, so it's hard to determine how you're
going to find that exact footprint.
Speaker 1 (31:17):
In my opinion, crime Stories with Nancy Grace, you know,
Angel Lewis is joining US high profile lawyer SIRC Law firm,
and for my purposes, former felony prosecutor who has prosecuted
(31:38):
a lot of cases, including homicide cases. Angel Lewis, there's
something you brought up earlier, and Ron Bateman just.
Speaker 4 (31:46):
Brought it up.
Speaker 1 (31:47):
You know, we're talking about the Rachel Mooren case, and
I've got other similar cases, like the serial killer Israel
Keys who hunted people that were our veers and hikers
all across the country.
Speaker 4 (31:59):
And I've got them on talking about it.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
Complete total perv that said they would pick on people
that were less powerful or less cunning than themselves. There's
whack a doodle right there. That's Israel Keys. He would
specifically go to hiking trails, RV camps, tent camps, dispersed
(32:27):
camping areas, and he would get people and murder them
at their weakest moments. But Andrea, you brought this up,
as did Bateman and in Morin who did the perp
attack alone, female, unarmed, Andrea, you brought it up. This
guy is big, Clinton Brink, that's a big guy. Hey,
(32:53):
Control room, do you mind putting up a picture of him?
Can't You can't really tell in a lot of these
pictures how big he is because, like you know, I
got a close up. Oh and another thing, when I
go back to Jeff Gardier, these photos are just breaking
my heart. They're not professional photos. They're happy photos taken
(33:13):
by them at some of the happiest.
Speaker 4 (33:16):
Moments of their lives.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
Like I look through my phone and I see all
these candid moments with David and the twins, and it's
just like the happiest moments of our lives.
Speaker 4 (33:28):
Look at that. Look at that.
Speaker 1 (33:30):
It's like the ultimate American family out with their children
before everybody has to go back to school on a
heighth thinking they were doing a fun.
Speaker 4 (33:41):
Thing, making memories. As I like to say.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
But Andrea, this purp took that. That's a good one.
He's almost as big as Woody.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
Right.
Speaker 1 (33:54):
This is a big dude, right, and the purp took
on not only him but the mom.
Speaker 4 (34:01):
Yes, Nancy, and you know bringing up Israel. He's that's interesting.
Speaker 9 (34:05):
Because he was, as you noted, he was also someone
who waited for people in very isolated scenarios and isolated scenes.
He was someone who preyed upon those who likely couldn't
fight back. What makes us wonder, you know, we know
that he was into weighted area. Even in this case
(34:27):
he's armed. I presume he's assuming that those who are
out for a lovely family afternoon with their small children
are not going to come to the trail heavily armed,
and then he looks at that as an opportunity to attack,
which is obviously what happened here. Now to your point
about the size, I agree with you, and that strikes
(34:49):
me as very odd that one may consider that he
may have been thinking, Okay, Dad is going to be
so caught up in trying to protect the family this
and that likely not be prepared.
Speaker 5 (35:05):
We don't know.
Speaker 9 (35:06):
Maybe he's wearing a backpack, he's got a bunch of
things in his hands, who knows. But maybe he then
thinks he can catch him off guard if he's armed
and sneaks up behind it or something of that nature.
But it is a very strange crime. And the first
thing that came to mind as we were talking about before,
is maybe he sees the beautiful young girls come through
with the family, becomes fixated on them and says, look,
(35:29):
I'm going to do what I got to do to
take out this these loving parents in order to get
what he ultimately desired.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
You know, I'm just thinking of this through doctor Jeff.
First of all, I want to talk to you about
who is this perp willing to take on a big dude,
the husband, the wife. What is motivating him. We're not
hearing anything about a sex tack on, mom. We're not
hearing anything.
Speaker 4 (35:55):
About a robbery. So of course, a.
Speaker 1 (35:59):
State, as you know, doesn't have to prove motive a trial.
You never have to go bang around into the defendant's
head to figure out, well, what were they thinking?
Speaker 4 (36:07):
You don't have to.
Speaker 1 (36:08):
Prove that, but as a practical matter, doctor Jeff a
jury wants to hear motive like him Brian Coburger, right,
that piece of crap, may he writ in hell, people were.
Speaker 4 (36:20):
Hung up at the get go.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
Why would this guy, a PhD go into the home
at three four o'clock in the morning and murder four
people without a sex attack, without a robbery.
Speaker 4 (36:33):
He didn't even know them.
Speaker 1 (36:35):
So it would be hard for some people on the jury,
not me, but some people to piece together that you
don't need a motive, or that you will never know
the motive. But I'm looking for a motive because it
may help me identify who.
Speaker 4 (36:50):
Is this guy?
Speaker 1 (36:51):
For instance, was he a neighbor and he had been
had been living there for long they had just moved
to thee through the jurisdiction. And was this a neighbor
that saw the little girl say like in Shasta a
Dylan grownee in the above ground pool and went hey,
I want that little girl.
Speaker 4 (37:09):
Did he follow them? Did he know them?
Speaker 1 (37:12):
Was he lying in wait for just the right little
girl to try to steal. I mean, who is this guy?
Give me some insight, doctor, Jeff.
Speaker 10 (37:21):
Well, I think that this is a person who not
only may have wanted to violate the little girls. We
still don't know that, of course, but that's a theory.
But this is a person who wanted to say.
Speaker 1 (37:35):
Words like that. Well, this is a person saying violate.
You make it sound like he had a traffic citation,
violated right of way if that's his word, If he
wants to rape the little girl, put it out there.
I don't have time for niceties. This is not high
tea at Windsor Castle.
Speaker 4 (37:55):
Jeff.
Speaker 10 (37:56):
I totally understand Nancy. But I use the word violation
because it's more than just a possible sex attack, but
a complete attack on the entire family. This is someone
who may have had intense hatred or resentment towards family structures.
You ask for a motivation, and I'm giving you one.
(38:17):
This is a person perhaps who came from a background
like Coburger, where he had, you know, situations where he
felt that he was being treated like a piece of
crap or didn't have a happy family, and therefore this
violation of the whole family structure. It is an abomination.
(38:38):
He may not have only wanted to destroy these little girls,
but to destroy the entire family. That is a real perversion.
Speaker 11 (38:48):
I'm ready for the first responders, sat reflee. That's all possible.
Fabvingtensive heart question. County received a call from the visitor
center to children are their advised that their parents were assaulted,
one was possibly stabbed.
Speaker 5 (39:07):
The parents are missing.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
You guys, has just security Devilston you are still in round.
Attacked the mail and a femail on Devilston Hiking trail
and then took off on a small black sports car
with tables with plee and we suspect the suspect of
the injuries due to the witness seeing the suspect stab
one of them.
Speaker 1 (39:24):
We are live at Devil's Den State Park, Arkansas. A
mother and a father in the prime of their life
with their two little girls. The two little girls ages
seven and nine, with mommy and daddy on a hike
before everybody has to go back to school. Both of
(39:45):
these parents nurses. The parents are dead, stabbed dead. At
this hour, there is a man hunt for the perp.
The two little girls mom yells to them to run
and get away, and they do. They see their father
(40:05):
getting stabbed dead, and they hear their mother screaming with
me an all star panels straight out to Nanette Sosa
standing by at Devil's Den State Park.
Speaker 4 (40:18):
One, we have a composite sketch.
Speaker 1 (40:20):
Two the FBI has gotten involved, and three a vehicle
was spotted. This is such malice a forethought. There was
duct tape or electrical tape over at least part of
the tag number. I mean, this guy put a lot
(40:41):
of thought into this. Let's start with a composite sketch,
Nanette Sosa, what do you know?
Speaker 8 (40:45):
The composite sketch shows a white male with the ball
cap and his eyes are set close together. His face
looks unshaven. It's a very somber look how it's drawn out,
how it's sketched. And then the shirt that he's wearing
(41:07):
is more like a sweatshirt type of shirt for this sketch.
Speaker 1 (41:13):
Putting together a sketch like this is extremely laborious. Ron
Bateman with us. Remember we got the sketch of the
Rachel Morin.
Speaker 4 (41:23):
That's the case you.
Speaker 1 (41:24):
Investigated, perp and it was dead on as best as
we could get it, and he was caught on cam,
but only his back was caught on cam when he
attacked a little girl out in California and related to
the Rachel Moore in case. Ron Bateman, former sheriff and
(41:45):
Arundel County, Maryland, Ron, how do you make a composite sketch?
Speaker 7 (41:50):
Hopefully we have witnesses, adult witnesses, because your two juveniles
are going to be extremely upset and probably there their
view of things are going to be skewed. But so
hopefully we have some adults that are not emotionally involved
in this and we're able to give good, accurate descriptions
of the suspect to allow such a very crisp, clean
(42:12):
composite of the suspect.
Speaker 4 (42:14):
I like it, Cydney Sumner. What do we know about
the car?
Speaker 13 (42:17):
We know that the car is a four door black Sedan.
The word sports car was thrown around frequently in initial reports,
and a nine one one operator has confirmed that with
other calls, she's kind of ruled out that it was
a muscle car, so we know it wasn't like an
American Mustang something of that sort. And this nine to
(42:40):
one one operator, who has a special pensian for cars
and types of cars, believes that it's probably a foreign car,
an import. So we also heard at one point a
twenty twelve Magda, but police ruled out that car as
a suspect vehicle because it was still in the park
(43:03):
as they were completing their investigation. So all we really
have to go on is this four door black sedan
feels more like a sports car. And people who called
about this car said that it was driving erradically when
it left the park. Somebody said they felt like they
were almost hit by this car. When they reported it.
They said it's very, very loud. That's one of the
(43:26):
big commonalities. And the other one is that that license
plate is covered in some kind of tape, electrical duct tape.
Speaker 1 (43:34):
Black four door sedan. This is interesting. The license plate
either fully or partially obscured by electrical or duct tape.
I seventy or two twenty covering up part of the
tag number with duck tape.
Speaker 4 (43:52):
You know what that tells me? Area Lewis this ain't
his first.
Speaker 1 (43:55):
Time at the rodeo. I mean, I wouldn't think if
I were going out for a hike. Why do you
cover up part of your tag number with duct tape?
That's MENSRAA Malisa forethought intent intent out the yanyang.
Speaker 9 (44:08):
Yes, that is a huge piece of evidence here that
shows us there is no question this was premeditated. He
was not going there for a hike, He was not
going there to do any bird watching. This was a
man who went to the park that day with one
thing in mind. He's going to commit a crime.
Speaker 1 (44:29):
What was that crime?
Speaker 9 (44:30):
That's what we're trying to determine. Did he go there
to initially rob someone, to unfortunately possibly get access to
young children, or was it as it ended up, to
murder two innocent parents. We don't yet know. But what
we do know is he put thought into this. And
to your point, Nancy, which is an excellent point, people
(44:53):
who are this brazen generally have done this before. You
don't come up with this stuff on your first go round.
This man knew what he was doing and that says
a lot.
Speaker 1 (45:04):
Agreed. Disagree, Uctor Jeff Gardier, you're the psychologist.
Speaker 10 (45:07):
Yeah, I absolutely agree. We typically see that these types
of individuals either follow or study these types of tactics,
or I've done them before. The other thing about this
tape that was used on the license plates, I suspect
either he knew he would dump the car as quickly
(45:29):
as possible, because that would draw attention to the car
on a highway trying.
Speaker 4 (45:34):
To obscure your license plates or pull off.
Speaker 10 (45:37):
Somewhere and then pull off the tape and then get
back into the car.
Speaker 5 (45:41):
And that.
Speaker 4 (45:43):
There are some reports that he was wearing gloves.
Speaker 8 (45:46):
Yes, you're correct, fingerless gloves at that which would we fingerprints?
I would And if he stand these husband and wife
and wife, so I would think there's some prints to
be found somewhere possibly. And also the couple were again
(46:08):
they were found on the trail.
Speaker 4 (46:10):
On the trail. Rachel Morien was dragged off the trail.
Speaker 1 (46:14):
I mean, Chris Adams, you're the survivalist who goes hiking.
And what I'm getting at Chris is that he had
nefarious intent, malicious intent going into this. He wasn't just
on the show and went hey, I want to molest
a little girl. And there one is he went in
with his tag obscured with duct tape or some people
(46:35):
call it electrical tape, and he was wearing gloves and
it's ninety degrees Are you sure about that? Chris Adams
long sleeves, dark long pants, a dark baseball cap, sunglasses
and gloves to go hiking up a hill in ninety
(46:55):
what five degree temperatures.
Speaker 6 (46:57):
Chris Adams as someone who acts a bunch of tra
that would be a person I'd immediately keep an eye
on if it was anywhere near me. It already sounds suspicious.
It doesn't sound like an average hacker. This was somebody
with intent to do harm to someone. As far as
I'm concerned, your average hackers don't dress like that, and
they definitely don't act like that.
Speaker 1 (47:17):
Tip line the Arkansas State Police for seven nine seven
five one six' six six y three repeat four seven
nine seven five one six' six six.
Speaker 4 (47:28):
Y three i can't stress enough how much we need.
Speaker 1 (47:34):
Citizen Sleuths gabby batito's case would never have been Solved
If red Blue AND methane i believe was their handle
online did not spot Her white ford transit and. Dispersed parking.
Her body what was left of it was found a good.
Speaker 4 (47:56):
Distance away from.
Speaker 1 (47:57):
That van but if they hadn't seen it and, reported
it we would never know what Happened To.
Speaker 4 (48:03):
Gabby petito.
Speaker 1 (48:06):
Dispersed camping is there are no, electrical hookups, no, Bathrooms
nothing you are out in.
Speaker 4 (48:14):
The wild she would.
Speaker 1 (48:16):
Never have, been found and we've been told that she
was identified originally by, her sweatshirt not by, her body
because animals had already.
Speaker 4 (48:27):
Attacked it that's how much we need.
Speaker 1 (48:29):
Citizens louse not just people on the trail that may
have seen or observed something we don't, know yet but
people regarding.
Speaker 4 (48:36):
That car it. Was loud what does?
Speaker 1 (48:40):
That mean, don't know couldn't mean any number. Of things
we know it was a four Door. Black sedan some
people thought it Was, a mazda and we know the
tag was obscured with black duct tape indicating malicious intent
along with what he. Was wearing these parents died trying
(49:02):
to save their two. Little girls this guy is on
the loose tip line four seventy nine seven five one
six six six three a brazen attack and now police
are looking for the vehicle and they're scouring twenty five
(49:24):
hundred acres. Of wilderness one, Quick Question tonette sosa joining
Us From Devil's? Den park are their cams at the entry?
And exit if he left in a vehicle and didn't
leave on the front the perimeter of the, park itself
we might have a shot at getting a good description of.
(49:46):
The car are there cams for.
Speaker 8 (49:49):
The entrances and the exits Here At. Devil's den regarding
CAMERAS where i have information could be, picked up they're.
Not sure the authorities here have not directly answered. The
question it has, BEEN asked i, personally asked but that
has not. Been disclosed you're looking at twenty five hundred
(50:10):
acres and in between the waterfalls, rock formations you have,
twelve trails you, got. Campsites cavins the area is rule
and not. Just that if you're on one of, the
trails it's likely you don't even have. Cellular service you
can't even make a. Phone call so there's. That thought
but as far, as cameras that has not been, officially
disclosed at least not, to me and.
Speaker 4 (50:32):
That is why we.
Speaker 1 (50:34):
Need YOU the fbi has been brought in to Help
The Arkansas. State police if you saw, this vehicle if
you have a home or. Business Camra Remember, alex murdoch
another sack of crap that murdered his wife, And son
Maggie and paul to cover up his own financial wrongdoings
to the tune of millions of dollars.
Speaker 4 (50:55):
He's stealing.
Speaker 1 (50:57):
He went down a rural road and he faked an
attempt on his life to cover the fact that he is.
The killer there were, no cameras but. Guess what at
the entrance of that rural road was A little baptist
church and guess what they had. A camera so any
(51:20):
camera footage we, Need it please Help The Arkansas. State
police these little girls need to grow up knowing that.
We cared we didn't just talk, about it we did something.
About it four, seventy, nine, seven, five, one six six.
Sixty three and now we Remember an american, Hero Officer
(51:46):
dril islam N, y pd just, thirty six shot and
killed at an office Tower, in manhattan providing security leeves behind,
his wife who, is pregnant and two.
Speaker 4 (52:02):
Little children.
Speaker 1 (52:04):
American Hero Officer Deirul Islam nancy grace signing off. Goodbye
friend
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace Devil's Dan horror. A mom
and a dad both slaughtered trying to protect their little
daughters from the hiking trail killer. This as the FBI
joins in the manhunt. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.
(00:21):
I want to thank you for being with us.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
You guys, it's just as Devilston. You still a relative
hack the mail and a femail on Devilston hiking trail
and then took off from a small black sports car
with tables. Withe and we suspect the suspect of injuries
due to the witness seeing the.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Suspect, striking fear in every parent's heart. I just got
back from taking the twins hiking. These two parents with
their two little girls slaughtered at the Devil's Den State Park.
As we go to air a major update in a
search for the per that allegedly murdered a mom and
dad on a popular hiking trail, straight out to Crime
(00:58):
Stories investigative reporters Sydney Summer, what happened?
Speaker 3 (01:01):
Arkansas State Police just released a possible photo of the suspect. Unfortunately,
it's from behind, so we're just seeing the back of
his head.
Speaker 4 (01:10):
He's standing on.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
What looks like the edge of a cliff, looking out
over at an overlook, and the description matches what they
have been putting out there. He's wearing long black pants
a long sleeved black shirt. It looks like there's a
design on the black of the shirt. It looks like
it's a red square with blue filling the border. He's
carrying a black backpack and what looks like a duffel
(01:34):
bag and his baseball cap in a light can. He
does appear to have sandy blonde or light brown hair.
ASP didn't give us much information on where they got
this photo. Maybe another hiker on the trail who just
happened to catch the suspect in this position. And it's
now zoomed in in a better photo, so we're unsure
(01:55):
of where exactly they got this, but just so unfortunate
that it doesn't have his face.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
The parents were attacked and murdered with the children present,
With the children present, Why why attack these two loving
parents again? With me in all star panels straight out
to Dannette Sosa, she is joining us from Devil's Den.
They're in Arkansas formerly knw A Nanette, thank you for
(02:23):
being with us.
Speaker 4 (02:24):
What do we know at this hour?
Speaker 5 (02:26):
As far as the park is concerned, all the trails
are closed here at Devil's Den devil Den's State Park.
The police and FBI has now helped in this search.
Extra caution has been taken. More patrol is unseen. However,
we're only allowed through the exterior of the park. As
(02:48):
you can see, there are two entrances. This is one
entrance you see the sign behind me, and then there's
another more toward the north end of this Parkette.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
Did you just tell me there are only two entrance exits.
Speaker 5 (03:01):
It's a highway that runs through here. When I say
ingress and egress or entrances and exits, So you have
a main highway you come off, you have an option
to come off the main interstate, which is Interstate forty nine.
Then you take a smaller highway seventy four. Then that
will connect you to two highways here toward this particular park,
(03:23):
which is Highway two twenty or the Highway one seventy four.
So those are the two and they kind of they
can loop around and you can go on or off
through those highways.
Speaker 4 (03:36):
Right, Okay, that's important.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
I'm gathering that there are only two entrance exits formal
entrance and exits. But let me go straight out. Guys
joining me at the saying Devil's Dan State Park. Now
to an expert, Chris Adams, swamp survival expert, environmental educator.
You can find him at Turtleman on Facebook. Renowned survivalist. Chris,
(04:03):
you have studied the terrain and when I was asking
in that SOSA, are there only two entrants in exits?
The reason I'm asking that, obviously is because I want
to find out who is the perp and if he
did exit, those are the two formal entry and exits, right,
if he was by car, that's where we're going to
get an id on him. However, as you know from
(04:26):
working at multiple state parks, and some of them extremely
extremely tough terrain, you can walk in and out of
a state park practically anywhere, right, Chris Adams.
Speaker 6 (04:38):
If you know how to get in and out of
a place, you can get in and out fairly easy.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
Let's go back to that last shot where it was
describing the terrain. Guys, you are seeing the entrance and
exit and it looks pretty idyllic, but the terrain is
actually very very difficult. Chris Adams, familiar with this terrain,
Describe it for me, Chris, this guy, if he did
not leave so one of the formal entry exits, which
(05:02):
we believe he did, but we don't know that.
Speaker 4 (05:04):
What would he be up against now?
Speaker 1 (05:07):
Crooked steep, no through trucks, RV trailers, only certain links
he can go in because of the terrain.
Speaker 4 (05:14):
Tell me about the terrain, Chris Adams.
Speaker 6 (05:15):
Well, unlike my home, it is anything but flat. I
mean there's rock formations, there's caverns, there's creeks, wooded areas,
even waterfalls. You know, that's the perfect area for disaster
if you're walking through there and roll an ankle. I mean,
you've got to know the terrain to be able to
navigate the terrain, and this is not easy terrain to
(05:36):
navigate by any means.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
I'm glad you said that, Chris Adams joining me now,
Ron Bateman, former sheriff at inn Arunda County in Maryland,
former homicide and undercover narc You know, Ron, you're especially
equipped for today because you studied and worked the Rachel
(05:59):
Warren Hiker trail murder. And what Chris Adams just said
is extremely important. Did this guy know the area, much
like Delphi where Abby and Liberty were murdered on a
local trail, nobody would know about it unless you were
from there. I suspect this guy knew the terrain really well,
(06:24):
and like in the case of Rachel Moore, and that
we were just showing on the mom pawtrail that guy
lay in.
Speaker 4 (06:31):
Wait.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
That's what I think about this guy. Why do I
care because maybe somebody saw him way in?
Speaker 4 (06:37):
What do you think about this perp lying in wait?
Speaker 1 (06:39):
A mother and a father did, leaving behind three girls,
one a team and two eaty beatty children little to
grow out without mom and dad.
Speaker 4 (06:49):
What do you think, Ron?
Speaker 7 (06:51):
It's horrible And that's the first thing I thought of
when I read this case. About Rachel Maren's case. There's
so many ways to get in and out of that
woods to the mom Pop trail as it is for
this situation here. Yeah, there might be two formal ways
in and out, but I'm sure there's numerous ways. Like
Chris just said, if you know the terrain, you're going
(07:12):
to get in and get out. So I'm sure this
guy knew where he was going and knew what he
planned on doing. And then Nick carried out his acts.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
And the point of that, angew Lewis is joining me,
high profile lawyer, partner Sirce law, former felony prosecutor area.
The point is, I'm onto finding this guy. I think
a he knew the terrain really well. Like Chris Adams
is pointing out, I think he lay in wait, which
gives me a bid on who may have seen him,
(07:45):
What time did he get there, and why did he
identify these two? You know, it's really raaring. You've tried
a lot of cases, as have I. For one person
to take on two adults and he leaves the children,
the children live, they go running, screaming at the top
of their lungs, their witnesses. Do I like putting children
on the stand?
Speaker 8 (08:05):
No?
Speaker 4 (08:05):
I don't. Do you do it when you have to, Yes,
you do.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
But for one guy to take on two adults very peculiar,
and I believe he had to know the terrain.
Speaker 4 (08:17):
Andrea Ninta, You're exactly right.
Speaker 9 (08:20):
And if you look at the photographs of the husband
and father, he does not appear to be a relatively
small man. So this guy not only did he know
what he was doing, not only was he there prepared
but he took on somebody that likely had some force
and ability to fight back. Now, you bring up a
very good point, right, which is what was the motive here?
Speaker 5 (08:44):
And two?
Speaker 9 (08:46):
Was the Were the parents the intended target? We know
he certainly intended to kill them, but was he actually
after the two young girls similar to a Delphi type
situation where he may have been actually looking for young
girls to prey upon. We don't know yet, but this
whole thing is very unusual and absolutely a horrific rime.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Angela Lewis, you say something like that and you expect
everybody to just go to sleep tonight, put their head
on the pillow and have sweet dreams. Now, we've heard
over and over Andrew. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm
not saying you're wrong at all, Because what we keep
hearing is they died, mom and dad did on a
hiking trail, and we keep hearing trying to protect their
(09:33):
daughters that had to come from somewhere. We're not hearing
they died because they were robbed, or they died because
like Rachel Moren, she was brutally sex attacked on the
man pawtrail. We're not hearing any of that, but we
are hearing they died trying to protect their daughters, and
(09:54):
that brings in what you just said, a blood curdling
thought that the part was trying to get the girls
and the parents fought back and told the girls to
run like any parent would do.
Speaker 9 (10:05):
Andrea, you know, and Nancy is horrible and just unfathomable.
It is to really picture that it fits what we're
seeing here, because what we know, whether it be from
witnesses or maybe even the girls themselves, is that they're
reporting that he was injured. So certainly, if mom and
dad know that this predator is coming after these young girls,
(10:28):
they're going to fight for not only their own lives,
but also for their children. And you can certainly see
a circumstance where the parents injure him tell the girls
to run, as you just noted, and that would really
explain exactly what we're hearing from investigators now. Only time
will tell. Certainly there are other motives, but that is
certainly a chilling one that investigators will have to rule out.
Speaker 4 (10:52):
Doctor Jeff Gardier is joining us. You know him well.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
We have been analyzing cases together since I know for
a fact nineteen ninety seven clinical psychologist Professor Truro College
of Osteopathic Medicine called America's psychologist, Doctor Jeff. You and
I have studied so many cases, and when we were
(11:16):
covering a case together at court TV, we talked about
parents that tell their children that turn and attack the
attacker and tell.
Speaker 4 (11:25):
The children run.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
And the more we're analyzing this case, the more that's
becoming a parent. The two little girls did that, they ran,
doctor Jeff, and I think it is a child this young, anyway,
impulse to stay with the parents, even though the parents
are getting slaughtered.
Speaker 4 (11:46):
They'll stay right there.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
They might scream, they might run around, but they won't
leave unless they're told run.
Speaker 4 (11:53):
And that is what parents are told.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
They're instructed to tell their children if the family's under attack.
I told my children that when they were little, and
I still tell them that if anything happens, run, leave
your father and I leave me, and run and go
get help, in other words, get to safety. Do you
think that's what happened, Doctor Jiff.
Speaker 10 (12:15):
There is quite that possibility, Nancy, And you're absolutely right.
When we tell our kids to run, it's for their
own safety, but it's also to get help. And what
we're seeing here is there is the possibility that this killer,
whether premeditated or not, was an individual with this kind
(12:36):
of struggle going on, who was acting with intense emotional state,
rage or frustration, and that was also very scary to
the children. But that impulse of the parents to protect
their children by any means, of course, is admirable and
what we want to see in parents. They sacrifice their lives,
(12:58):
it seems. Here.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
Back to our special guest Chris Adams aka Turtleman, who
is a wildlife survivalist. Chris, we are learning that the
little girls said said that they ran until they couldn't
(13:22):
hear their mom screaming anymore. Now it was and in
that so, so we'll jump in if I've got this wrong.
It was about a mile to the visitor center. What
does that mean? The purp could have been watching them,
could have followed them in and tell them for a mile.
But more importantly, these two little girls ran for a mile.
Speaker 4 (13:48):
Two little girls ran under the.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
Age of ten, ran for a mile in this terrain, Chris,
hearing their mother screaming, And we believe they were running
down hill over all the rocks and the ups and
the downs and the cracks, in the surface. What would
that have been like for little children in this terrain running?
Speaker 6 (14:16):
Firstly, that's horrific and not only so unnerving considering I worked,
you know, in wild lands all across the southern part
of Georgia here, but the terrain in that type of area,
I mean it cuts and I can only imagine, you know,
an adult trying to do that. But two children, their
legs are smaller, They're not getting enough you know, windage
(14:38):
running like that, They're wearing themselves out, tripping, stumbling, falling.
I mean, it would cut them up pretty bad, or
at least bruise them up. And in the temperatures like
it's been, the highs out there have been in the
mid to lower nineties, and I can't imagine what the
humidity has been like. But any amount of time running
(15:00):
in that heat, it'd wear a little child out very easily.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
Right now, the FBI joining in the search. I want
this guy found. I want him brought to justice. You
don't think these two little girls are going to hear
their mother's screams for the rest of their lives every
time they go to bed.
Speaker 4 (15:25):
They will.
Speaker 5 (15:27):
We're all sweeping the trail. Me and I've got a
person with me.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
First state, he is trying to locate the family.
Speaker 11 (15:36):
Here, still calling for help. We're hiding down Therefore, we're
hearing the perie before again into the lower part of
the Devil's Entrail, try.
Speaker 5 (15:44):
To relate to the author and we found the victims
down here.
Speaker 6 (15:47):
They're on the lower Devil's Entrail bodies.
Speaker 12 (15:51):
Authorities believe Arkansas mom and dad fought for their daughters'
lives in a brutal attack in Devil's Den State Park
that leaves both parents dead.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
We are live at Devil's Den State Park, the slaughter
of a mother and father, we've been told, protecting their
own children joining us there at Devil's Den. And that's so,
said investigative reporter, but also with US crime stories, investigative
reporter Sidney Sumner, I'm hoping, based on what we've heard
(16:21):
that the purp was in fact injured. Why do we
think that is there a glimmer of hope that we've
got the purpse blood or DNA, be a skin blood anything.
Speaker 13 (16:35):
Well, Nancy, we have very little information on what exactly
happened to these parents to this perpetrator.
Speaker 8 (16:43):
So we have some.
Speaker 13 (16:45):
Reports from nine to one one operators who took the
call from police dispatch radio that one of these little
girls saw their father stabbed by this suspect. So we
don't know exactly what they saw, but I think police
are on this theory that the suspects had a nice
(17:05):
he attacked these parents, and those parents were protecting their
children and they were not going to go down without
a fight and make sure that this perpetrator did not
attack their two little girls.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
So I think.
Speaker 13 (17:17):
Police believed that this suspect may have defensive wounds from
the parents who were trying to fight him off.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
Yann would go for a white male suspect wearing black gloves, sunglasses,
or colored pants or to witness direction of travel was
quotes and laid across a bridge leaving Devil's Den and
stayed on the highways. Quote.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
Okay, this is what we know about the perp. What
he looked like. We believe white male, black gloves, sunglasses,
dark pants, long sleeve shirt rolled up.
Speaker 4 (17:50):
Interesting.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
The only way his face is covered is with sunglasses.
Speaker 4 (17:54):
We're not hearing about a hat.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
We've also heard he had dark blonde to light brown hair.
Speaker 4 (18:02):
Learning more at this hour, listen.
Speaker 14 (18:04):
First responders here screams and calls for help. By the
time they reach the victims on the trail, it's clear
the victims are deceased, no sign of their attacker. Officers
quickly clear the trail, speaking with hikers as they exit
the park to piece together what happened. Several hikers remember
passing the family and many others on the trail, but
a few point out there was only one person they
(18:26):
saw alone on the trail that day, A medium build,
white man wearing dark clothes, a ball cap and sunglasses
with dark blonde or light brown hair.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
That's that's going to be.
Speaker 13 (18:37):
A white man wearing light gloves and light with a
dark colored cans and a dark color came off car
plate direct travel.
Speaker 8 (18:49):
One of us were leaving the other again and stayed
on the highway.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
Curious, I'm hearing an inconsistency. Some reports state that the
part pat on long long sleeve shirt with the slaves
rolled up there.
Speaker 4 (19:00):
P We're hearing police.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
Dispatch state that he had on a tank top. Very
curious that there would be a knife attack and the
kind of heat that Chris Adams is describing wearing a
tank top. Let's think that through. Is that how he
was injured, joining me an all star panel. But now
(19:23):
to doctor Pria Abanergy Board certified forensic pathologist, anatomic pathologist,
Doctor Priya, thank you for being with us, doctor Priya.
We're told that the purp was injured. There's got to
be evidence of that. It's got to be blood, got
(19:43):
to be explain how would we know looking at the victims'
bodies that the PURP had been injured. Great question.
Speaker 15 (19:51):
I think that's where the money is. That this is
a stabbing up post and personal, and I mean just
breaks my heart as a girl mom too of a
ten year old.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
That they witnessed this.
Speaker 15 (20:02):
So this was not just a single stab. It sounds
like a very violent altercation. So we need to look
at the victims hands, look for defensive wounds and what's
the state of their nails, if there's any debris under them,
and rush that evidence.
Speaker 4 (20:16):
That is going to be where the DNA is.
Speaker 15 (20:18):
You know, they didn't give up, they fought back to
save their kids, and really that's where any sort of
DNA is going to be. Even I've even swabbed hands
at autopsy to try to get touched DNA or residual
any blood drops. You look to see if there's any
vertical blood drops like with the spatter pattern, to make
(20:39):
sure and see if potentially you can identify whether it's
victim's blood or what I'm hoping is injured assailant's blood
on clothing whatnot. And that's where the money will be for.
Speaker 4 (20:51):
The DNA crime stories. With Nancy Grace.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
Two Ninette so So joining us from Devil's Den State Park,
we are also learning that the two little girls, just seven.
Speaker 4 (21:11):
And nine, who were running for their lives.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
Say the perps stabbed their dad and their mom yelled
at them to run as far and fast as they
can for help, and they heard the mom asking why
are you doing this and start to.
Speaker 8 (21:28):
Scream exactly Nancy. That is what was reported with the
mother in distress telling and trying to save her girls,
telling them to run, and when they did run, they
made up with their life. About a mile away from
where the attack happened. Reports state that his parents were
(21:49):
found on the walking trail.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
Doctor Jeff Guardier with US clinical psychologists and Professor Doctor
Jeff the brazen nature of the attack, and I'm gonna
circle back to Ron Bateman, same thing in the Rachel
Morn case. Doctor Jeff, we know that there were other
people on the trail, other adults. In fact, these two
(22:11):
little girls seven and nine, were running. They could hear
their mom screaming in the background. They saw their dad
get stabbed. As of now, they have not identified the
purp so it's not someone known to the little girls.
But if there were other people on the trail, this
guy has balls.
Speaker 4 (22:33):
The size of coconuts.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
I mean, he's on the trail, can get caught, and
he attacks with a knife. Anyway, the girls say they
saw dad getting stabbed. That's where we're getting the idea
that this was a stabbing, which, as you heard earlier
from doctor Priya, is up close and personal. As she
describes it, it's a whole nother mindset to stab somebody dead.
(22:56):
It's not like a sniper in the distance taking a
long shot. This is somebody fighting with you, grappling with you, screaming,
trying to get away, trying to attack you, and you
keep stabbing repeatedly. And the brazen nature of doing this
on a trail where there's a lot of people.
Speaker 10 (23:15):
So this is a person who probably waited to make
sure that the trail was empty and only the parents
and the children were there. That's number one. Number two
the fact, Nancy, as you so aptly said here, this
was with a knife and not a gun. So as
doctor Priya would agree, I would think that this is
(23:36):
about a very personal attack, even if he didn't know
the individuals. Someone wants to violate a family in every
way possible by striking terror into their hearts and that
of the children. And one last point here that the
father perhaps was stabbed first, but the mother may not
(23:58):
have just been fighting on off this individual, but also
trying to keep that individual from chasing after the children.
And therefore whatever fighting she was doing was to protect herself,
but at the same time to also try to contain
this individual long enough for the children to get away.
Speaker 12 (24:19):
What's supposed to be a memorable family hike ends in
a brutal tragedy when the bodies of a mom and
dad are suddenly discovered in Arkansas State Park.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
As soon as this went public late last night, social
media went.
Speaker 4 (24:34):
Wild, and we're learning a lot. Listen.
Speaker 16 (24:37):
Social media accounts are flooded with comments and accounts from
visitors to Devil's Den State Park on Saturday, and one
mother is convinced her family passed both the brinks and
their possible killer. On Devil's Den Trail. The mom says
she and her five children ran into a family of
four at a steep rock wall and exchanged pleasantries with
the parents as they helped their daughters down. Not long after,
(24:58):
the mom decided to turn and ran it to someone
else at the same rock wall. This man was not
interested in small talk and did not meet her eyes
when she said excuse me on her family's behalf. The
mother noticed that the man was also dressed oddly for
the hot weather, wearing a dark long sleeve shirt.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
Straight out to Chris aka Turtleman Adams, survivalist experts to
find him on Facebook Turtleman Chris Adams, Chris, we heard
it first that the pert was wearing a tank top,
which would have been appropriate in this weather, as you
pointed out, But why would you expose your bare arms,
(25:38):
neck and chest in that way for stabbing? Then social
media finds out about the murders and goes wild.
Speaker 4 (25:46):
A woman actually writes.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
In that she turned back and she sees this guy
wearing a dark long sleeve shirt and that struck her
as odd. The weather explained, what would a normal hiker
be wearing at Devil's Den.
Speaker 6 (26:06):
An average hiker anywhere really at this time of year
in the summer would be wearing those fishing net shirts.
You know, breatheable. You want your skin covered for the
most part. Down in those canyons and caverns. If you're
in broad sunlight, it can get brutal. But some will
wear things like tank tops and things of that nature.
But my take on the whole hoodie thing is perhaps
(26:29):
he had the hoodie on, took it off and he
was seen in a tank top or vice versa. If
he attacked them with a tank top on, he could
have well just put it on afterwards, the hoodie to
cover up any wounds on his arms, you know.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
To Ron Bateman joining us former sheriff at Anne Arundel County,
Maryland who extensively investigated the Rachel Moore in case, and
we keep bringing up Rachel Moore and a mother of
five just like this mother is a mother of two.
She was hiking solo, and I think Ron, it was
(27:04):
early in the morning when she was hiking that said
her boyfriend realized she didn't come home in time and
starts searching finds her car at the trailhead and then
discovers her body. Of course he became state suspect number one.
It's the love interest. He finds the body. It wasn't him.
(27:24):
It was a purp, an illegal immigrant in this country
who had already attacked people. A young girl in La
in her own home that said Ron Bateman in this case,
did you hear what Chris Adams was saying? The purp,
first believed to be wearing a tank top, was on
this hot trail. According to the eyewitness who went back
(27:46):
with her children, he wouldn't do any small talk. They
walked past him, and the moment excuse me on behalf
of her whole family. He wouldn't speak, wouldn't look her
in the eyes. And he was dressed nick to wrist
to foot right. That's not normal.
Speaker 7 (28:02):
No, it's not normal. And you know it goes into
the subject of was he lying in wait, and which
we can talk about extensively because of other things that
we know.
Speaker 4 (28:11):
But if I could real quick go back.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
To it, do it, because you know what I want
to hear. If you think he was lying in wait,
I want to hear all the reasons why, because that
will help me identify a suspect.
Speaker 7 (28:22):
Okay, great, So let's talk about what something doctor Prias
said real quick. I can't let it go. Yes, about
the DNA underneath the fingernails a skin, Yes, that is
super important. I investigated a double murder involving the suspect
using a knife in a wooded area in the past,
and one of the things when you're processing a scene
outdoors is extremely difficult because you don't have area where
(28:46):
you're going to find fingerprints. But what you do have
a lot of times, it's not unusual during a night.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
Time stop stop, stop stop, Ron Bateman. Hey, you can't
just drop a bomb on us like that, a fact bomb.
You're totally correct, But explain to everybody why an outdoor
scene is so hard to process. I mean, in Rachel Mooren,
you found a pool of blood near the body and
she had been raped, brutally sex assaulted. So we got
(29:14):
DNA matching up to an unknown perp. But it's really
hard to process an outdoor scene. Explain why what are
you going to get a fingerprint off a tree? It's
hard exactly.
Speaker 7 (29:24):
Outdoor scenes are so difficult, especially if it ends up
braining during the course of your processing. But it did
in this case. But what you're looking for in a
scene in the outdoors or a footprints if you have
some kind of soil that's strong enough to hold a footprint.
But in the case of a stabbing, it's not unusual
(29:44):
for the assailant to be injured because of some kind
of struggle that took place. So therefore you're really looking
honing in for blood, and they may have found blood
away from the bodies as the suspect was fleeing the area.
That's what I would say is probably going to happen
in this case because Clinton Brick is a pretty big dude,
(30:06):
and he's going to put up a fight for his family,
especially with a knife, and so I wouldn't be surprised
if the suspects injured and that was found as a
part of the process and processing of the scene.
Speaker 1 (30:17):
Okay, Bateman, everything you just said is correct, except and
it's still correct, But the likelihood they're going to get
a footprint on a trail slim to none. Everything else,
I'm down with it. I mean, Chris Adams, how are
you going to get a footprint off a trail like
(30:38):
this unless it's been wet and you can actually see
for instance, the tread on the bottom of the shoe.
Speaker 4 (30:45):
Otherwise it's just not going to happen.
Speaker 6 (30:47):
Even for a good tracker, it's going to be difficult.
You know that the part said there were very few
visitors the last few days, but that doesn't mean there
wasn't an influx of people a week before. I don't
know if it's rained or if it hasn't, but those
footprints set pretty quickly. Now off trail, you may be
able to find one much easier. Your average crowd is
(31:09):
going to stick to that trail, but this all happened
on a trail, so it's hard to determine how you're
going to find that exact footprint.
Speaker 1 (31:17):
In my opinion, crime Stories with Nancy Grace, you know,
Angel Lewis is joining US high profile lawyer SIRC Law firm,
and for my purposes, former felony prosecutor who has prosecuted
(31:38):
a lot of cases, including homicide cases. Angel Lewis, there's
something you brought up earlier, and Ron Bateman just.
Speaker 4 (31:46):
Brought it up.
Speaker 1 (31:47):
You know, we're talking about the Rachel Mooren case, and
I've got other similar cases, like the serial killer Israel
Keys who hunted people that were our veers and hikers
all across the country.
Speaker 4 (31:59):
And I've got them on talking about it.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
Complete total perv that said they would pick on people
that were less powerful or less cunning than themselves. There's
whack a doodle right there. That's Israel Keys. He would
specifically go to hiking trails, RV camps, tent camps, dispersed
(32:27):
camping areas, and he would get people and murder them
at their weakest moments. But Andrea, you brought this up,
as did Bateman and in Morin who did the perp
attack alone, female, unarmed, Andrea, you brought it up. This
guy is big, Clinton Brink, that's a big guy. Hey,
(32:53):
Control room, do you mind putting up a picture of him?
Can't You can't really tell in a lot of these
pictures how big he is because, like you know, I
got a close up. Oh and another thing, when I
go back to Jeff Gardier, these photos are just breaking
my heart. They're not professional photos. They're happy photos taken
(33:13):
by them at some of the happiest.
Speaker 4 (33:16):
Moments of their lives.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
Like I look through my phone and I see all
these candid moments with David and the twins, and it's
just like the happiest moments of our lives.
Speaker 4 (33:28):
Look at that. Look at that.
Speaker 1 (33:30):
It's like the ultimate American family out with their children
before everybody has to go back to school on a
heighth thinking they were doing a fun.
Speaker 4 (33:41):
Thing, making memories. As I like to say.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
But Andrea, this purp took that. That's a good one.
He's almost as big as Woody.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
Right.
Speaker 1 (33:54):
This is a big dude, right, and the purp took
on not only him but the mom.
Speaker 4 (34:01):
Yes, Nancy, and you know bringing up Israel. He's that's interesting.
Speaker 9 (34:05):
Because he was, as you noted, he was also someone
who waited for people in very isolated scenarios and isolated scenes.
He was someone who preyed upon those who likely couldn't
fight back. What makes us wonder, you know, we know
that he was into weighted area. Even in this case
(34:27):
he's armed. I presume he's assuming that those who are
out for a lovely family afternoon with their small children
are not going to come to the trail heavily armed,
and then he looks at that as an opportunity to attack,
which is obviously what happened here. Now to your point
about the size, I agree with you, and that strikes
(34:49):
me as very odd that one may consider that he
may have been thinking, Okay, Dad is going to be
so caught up in trying to protect the family this
and that likely not be prepared.
Speaker 5 (35:05):
We don't know.
Speaker 9 (35:06):
Maybe he's wearing a backpack, he's got a bunch of
things in his hands, who knows. But maybe he then
thinks he can catch him off guard if he's armed
and sneaks up behind it or something of that nature.
But it is a very strange crime. And the first
thing that came to mind as we were talking about before,
is maybe he sees the beautiful young girls come through
with the family, becomes fixated on them and says, look,
(35:29):
I'm going to do what I got to do to
take out this these loving parents in order to get
what he ultimately desired.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
You know, I'm just thinking of this through doctor Jeff.
First of all, I want to talk to you about
who is this perp willing to take on a big dude,
the husband, the wife. What is motivating him. We're not
hearing anything about a sex tack on, mom. We're not
hearing anything.
Speaker 4 (35:55):
About a robbery. So of course, a.
Speaker 1 (35:59):
State, as you know, doesn't have to prove motive a trial.
You never have to go bang around into the defendant's
head to figure out, well, what were they thinking?
Speaker 4 (36:07):
You don't have to.
Speaker 1 (36:08):
Prove that, but as a practical matter, doctor Jeff a
jury wants to hear motive like him Brian Coburger, right,
that piece of crap, may he writ in hell, people were.
Speaker 4 (36:20):
Hung up at the get go.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
Why would this guy, a PhD go into the home
at three four o'clock in the morning and murder four
people without a sex attack, without a robbery.
Speaker 4 (36:33):
He didn't even know them.
Speaker 1 (36:35):
So it would be hard for some people on the jury,
not me, but some people to piece together that you
don't need a motive, or that you will never know
the motive. But I'm looking for a motive because it
may help me identify who.
Speaker 4 (36:50):
Is this guy?
Speaker 1 (36:51):
For instance, was he a neighbor and he had been
had been living there for long they had just moved
to thee through the jurisdiction. And was this a neighbor
that saw the little girl say like in Shasta a
Dylan grownee in the above ground pool and went hey,
I want that little girl.
Speaker 4 (37:09):
Did he follow them? Did he know them?
Speaker 1 (37:12):
Was he lying in wait for just the right little
girl to try to steal. I mean, who is this guy?
Give me some insight, doctor, Jeff.
Speaker 10 (37:21):
Well, I think that this is a person who not
only may have wanted to violate the little girls. We
still don't know that, of course, but that's a theory.
But this is a person who wanted to say.
Speaker 1 (37:35):
Words like that. Well, this is a person saying violate.
You make it sound like he had a traffic citation,
violated right of way if that's his word, If he
wants to rape the little girl, put it out there.
I don't have time for niceties. This is not high
tea at Windsor Castle.
Speaker 4 (37:55):
Jeff.
Speaker 10 (37:56):
I totally understand Nancy. But I use the word violation
because it's more than just a possible sex attack, but
a complete attack on the entire family. This is someone
who may have had intense hatred or resentment towards family structures.
You ask for a motivation, and I'm giving you one.
(38:17):
This is a person perhaps who came from a background
like Coburger, where he had, you know, situations where he
felt that he was being treated like a piece of
crap or didn't have a happy family, and therefore this
violation of the whole family structure. It is an abomination.
(38:38):
He may not have only wanted to destroy these little girls,
but to destroy the entire family. That is a real perversion.
Speaker 11 (38:48):
I'm ready for the first responders, sat reflee. That's all possible.
Fabvingtensive heart question. County received a call from the visitor
center to children are their advised that their parents were assaulted,
one was possibly stabbed.
Speaker 5 (39:07):
The parents are missing.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
You guys, has just security Devilston you are still in round.
Attacked the mail and a femail on Devilston Hiking trail
and then took off on a small black sports car
with tables with plee and we suspect the suspect of
the injuries due to the witness seeing the suspect stab
one of them.
Speaker 1 (39:24):
We are live at Devil's Den State Park, Arkansas. A
mother and a father in the prime of their life
with their two little girls. The two little girls ages
seven and nine, with mommy and daddy on a hike
before everybody has to go back to school. Both of
(39:45):
these parents nurses. The parents are dead, stabbed dead. At
this hour, there is a man hunt for the perp.
The two little girls mom yells to them to run
and get away, and they do. They see their father
(40:05):
getting stabbed dead, and they hear their mother screaming with
me an all star panels straight out to Nanette Sosa
standing by at Devil's Den State Park.
Speaker 4 (40:18):
One, we have a composite sketch.
Speaker 1 (40:20):
Two the FBI has gotten involved, and three a vehicle
was spotted. This is such malice a forethought. There was
duct tape or electrical tape over at least part of
the tag number. I mean, this guy put a lot
(40:41):
of thought into this. Let's start with a composite sketch,
Nanette Sosa, what do you know?
Speaker 8 (40:45):
The composite sketch shows a white male with the ball
cap and his eyes are set close together. His face
looks unshaven. It's a very somber look how it's drawn out,
how it's sketched. And then the shirt that he's wearing
(41:07):
is more like a sweatshirt type of shirt for this sketch.
Speaker 1 (41:13):
Putting together a sketch like this is extremely laborious. Ron
Bateman with us. Remember we got the sketch of the
Rachel Morin.
Speaker 4 (41:23):
That's the case you.
Speaker 1 (41:24):
Investigated, perp and it was dead on as best as
we could get it, and he was caught on cam,
but only his back was caught on cam when he
attacked a little girl out in California and related to
the Rachel Moore in case. Ron Bateman, former sheriff and
(41:45):
Arundel County, Maryland, Ron, how do you make a composite sketch?
Speaker 7 (41:50):
Hopefully we have witnesses, adult witnesses, because your two juveniles
are going to be extremely upset and probably there their
view of things are going to be skewed. But so
hopefully we have some adults that are not emotionally involved
in this and we're able to give good, accurate descriptions
of the suspect to allow such a very crisp, clean
(42:12):
composite of the suspect.
Speaker 4 (42:14):
I like it, Cydney Sumner. What do we know about
the car?
Speaker 13 (42:17):
We know that the car is a four door black Sedan.
The word sports car was thrown around frequently in initial reports,
and a nine one one operator has confirmed that with
other calls, she's kind of ruled out that it was
a muscle car, so we know it wasn't like an
American Mustang something of that sort. And this nine to
(42:40):
one one operator, who has a special pensian for cars
and types of cars, believes that it's probably a foreign car,
an import. So we also heard at one point a
twenty twelve Magda, but police ruled out that car as
a suspect vehicle because it was still in the park
(43:03):
as they were completing their investigation. So all we really
have to go on is this four door black sedan
feels more like a sports car. And people who called
about this car said that it was driving erradically when
it left the park. Somebody said they felt like they
were almost hit by this car. When they reported it.
They said it's very, very loud. That's one of the
(43:26):
big commonalities. And the other one is that that license
plate is covered in some kind of tape, electrical duct tape.
Speaker 1 (43:34):
Black four door sedan. This is interesting. The license plate
either fully or partially obscured by electrical or duct tape.
I seventy or two twenty covering up part of the
tag number with duck tape.
Speaker 4 (43:52):
You know what that tells me? Area Lewis this ain't
his first.
Speaker 1 (43:55):
Time at the rodeo. I mean, I wouldn't think if
I were going out for a hike. Why do you
cover up part of your tag number with duct tape?
That's MENSRAA Malisa forethought intent intent out the yanyang.
Speaker 9 (44:08):
Yes, that is a huge piece of evidence here that
shows us there is no question this was premeditated. He
was not going there for a hike, He was not
going there to do any bird watching. This was a
man who went to the park that day with one
thing in mind. He's going to commit a crime.
Speaker 1 (44:29):
What was that crime?
Speaker 9 (44:30):
That's what we're trying to determine. Did he go there
to initially rob someone, to unfortunately possibly get access to
young children, or was it as it ended up, to
murder two innocent parents. We don't yet know. But what
we do know is he put thought into this. And
to your point, Nancy, which is an excellent point, people
(44:53):
who are this brazen generally have done this before. You
don't come up with this stuff on your first go round.
This man knew what he was doing and that says
a lot.
Speaker 1 (45:04):
Agreed. Disagree, Uctor Jeff Gardier, you're the psychologist.
Speaker 10 (45:07):
Yeah, I absolutely agree. We typically see that these types
of individuals either follow or study these types of tactics,
or I've done them before. The other thing about this
tape that was used on the license plates, I suspect
either he knew he would dump the car as quickly
(45:29):
as possible, because that would draw attention to the car
on a highway trying.
Speaker 4 (45:34):
To obscure your license plates or pull off.
Speaker 10 (45:37):
Somewhere and then pull off the tape and then get
back into the car.
Speaker 5 (45:41):
And that.
Speaker 4 (45:43):
There are some reports that he was wearing gloves.
Speaker 8 (45:46):
Yes, you're correct, fingerless gloves at that which would we fingerprints?
I would And if he stand these husband and wife
and wife, so I would think there's some prints to
be found somewhere possibly. And also the couple were again
(46:08):
they were found on the trail.
Speaker 4 (46:10):
On the trail. Rachel Morien was dragged off the trail.
Speaker 1 (46:14):
I mean, Chris Adams, you're the survivalist who goes hiking.
And what I'm getting at Chris is that he had
nefarious intent, malicious intent going into this. He wasn't just
on the show and went hey, I want to molest
a little girl. And there one is he went in
with his tag obscured with duct tape or some people
(46:35):
call it electrical tape, and he was wearing gloves and
it's ninety degrees Are you sure about that? Chris Adams
long sleeves, dark long pants, a dark baseball cap, sunglasses
and gloves to go hiking up a hill in ninety
(46:55):
what five degree temperatures.
Speaker 6 (46:57):
Chris Adams as someone who acts a bunch of tra
that would be a person I'd immediately keep an eye
on if it was anywhere near me. It already sounds suspicious.
It doesn't sound like an average hacker. This was somebody
with intent to do harm to someone. As far as
I'm concerned, your average hackers don't dress like that, and
they definitely don't act like that.
Speaker 1 (47:17):
Tip line the Arkansas State Police for seven nine seven
five one six' six six y three repeat four seven
nine seven five one six' six six.
Speaker 4 (47:28):
Y three i can't stress enough how much we need.
Speaker 1 (47:34):
Citizen Sleuths gabby batito's case would never have been Solved
If red Blue AND methane i believe was their handle
online did not spot Her white ford transit and. Dispersed parking.
Her body what was left of it was found a good.
Speaker 4 (47:56):
Distance away from.
Speaker 1 (47:57):
That van but if they hadn't seen it and, reported
it we would never know what Happened To.
Speaker 4 (48:03):
Gabby petito.
Speaker 1 (48:06):
Dispersed camping is there are no, electrical hookups, no, Bathrooms
nothing you are out in.
Speaker 4 (48:14):
The wild she would.
Speaker 1 (48:16):
Never have, been found and we've been told that she
was identified originally by, her sweatshirt not by, her body
because animals had already.
Speaker 4 (48:27):
Attacked it that's how much we need.
Speaker 1 (48:29):
Citizens louse not just people on the trail that may
have seen or observed something we don't, know yet but
people regarding.
Speaker 4 (48:36):
That car it. Was loud what does?
Speaker 1 (48:40):
That mean, don't know couldn't mean any number. Of things
we know it was a four Door. Black sedan some
people thought it Was, a mazda and we know the
tag was obscured with black duct tape indicating malicious intent
along with what he. Was wearing these parents died trying
(49:02):
to save their two. Little girls this guy is on
the loose tip line four seventy nine seven five one
six six six three a brazen attack and now police
are looking for the vehicle and they're scouring twenty five
(49:24):
hundred acres. Of wilderness one, Quick Question tonette sosa joining
Us From Devil's? Den park are their cams at the entry?
And exit if he left in a vehicle and didn't
leave on the front the perimeter of the, park itself
we might have a shot at getting a good description of.
(49:46):
The car are there cams for.
Speaker 8 (49:49):
The entrances and the exits Here At. Devil's den regarding
CAMERAS where i have information could be, picked up they're.
Not sure the authorities here have not directly answered. The
question it has, BEEN asked i, personally asked but that
has not. Been disclosed you're looking at twenty five hundred
(50:10):
acres and in between the waterfalls, rock formations you have,
twelve trails you, got. Campsites cavins the area is rule
and not. Just that if you're on one of, the
trails it's likely you don't even have. Cellular service you
can't even make a. Phone call so there's. That thought
but as far, as cameras that has not been, officially
disclosed at least not, to me and.
Speaker 4 (50:32):
That is why we.
Speaker 1 (50:34):
Need YOU the fbi has been brought in to Help
The Arkansas. State police if you saw, this vehicle if
you have a home or. Business Camra Remember, alex murdoch
another sack of crap that murdered his wife, And son
Maggie and paul to cover up his own financial wrongdoings
to the tune of millions of dollars.
Speaker 4 (50:55):
He's stealing.
Speaker 1 (50:57):
He went down a rural road and he faked an
attempt on his life to cover the fact that he is.
The killer there were, no cameras but. Guess what at
the entrance of that rural road was A little baptist
church and guess what they had. A camera so any
(51:20):
camera footage we, Need it please Help The Arkansas. State
police these little girls need to grow up knowing that.
We cared we didn't just talk, about it we did something.
About it four, seventy, nine, seven, five, one six six.
Sixty three and now we Remember an american, Hero Officer
(51:46):
dril islam N, y pd just, thirty six shot and
killed at an office Tower, in manhattan providing security leeves behind,
his wife who, is pregnant and two.
Speaker 4 (52:02):
Little children.
Speaker 1 (52:04):
American Hero Officer Deirul Islam nancy grace signing off. Goodbye
friend
Host
Nancy Grace
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