A new hearing scheduled in Andrew McGann’s double murder trial by a Washington County judge. McGann, 29, charged with the July stabbing deaths of Clinton and Cristen Brink. He has pleaded not guilty to those charges. Judge Joanna Taylor scheduled a status hearing for January 15, 2026.
At McGann' last court appearance in November, he appeared in civilian clothes and without visible restraints. He attorneys have file a number of motions including ones that would exclude the death penalty. Washington County Prosecuting Attorney Brandon Carter says his office intends to pursue the death penalty.
The former teacher's arrest for the cruel double murder of a mom and dad trying to save their two young daughters from a vicious attack during a family hike on a trail in Arkansas, known as Devil’s Den State Park, ended a five-day manhunt for the alleged predator.
Clinton David Brink, 43, and his wife, Cristen Amanda Brink, 41, were hiking with their 7- and 9-year-old daughters through Devil’s Den State Park when a man attacked them on the trail around 2:30 p.m., officials say. The two young girls ran to safety as they heard their mother's screams echoing; currently, both girls are with family members and suffered no physical injuries. The parents are being hailed as heroes for saving their daughters from the vicious fatal attack.
James Andrew McGann, 28, was arrested in Springdale, Arkansas, around 30 miles from the crime scene at a hair salon. getting his hair cut, possibly shaved. McGann is charged with two counts of capital murder, according to a release from the Arkansas State Police. The motive for the brutal attack that resulted in the deaths of both parents is still unclear.
Joining Nancy Grace today:
- Andrea Lewis - Partner at Searcy Law in Pam Beach, Florida, Former Felony Prosecutor at Palm Beach County State Attorney's Office - where Epstein was prosecuted, President of the Palm Beach County Bar Association, WEBSITE: searcylaw.com
- Dr. Janie Lacy - Licensed Psychotherapist and CEO of Life Counseling Solutions, Author of "How To Heal From A Toxic Relationship: A Guide To Reclaiming Your Mental Health and Happiness", Host of “The Resilient Professional” Podcast on YouTube, janielacy.com, Instagram & Facebook: @JanieLacy
- Ron Bateman - Former Sheriff for Anne Arundel County, Maryland. Former Homicide and Undercover Narcotics Detective, Author of Crime Ttrilogy, "Silent Blue Tears" [he is currently directing and producing a film documentary on the murders at the Capital Gazette Newspaper in Annapolis];.X: Ronbatemanbooks
- Dr. Michelle DuPre - Forensic Pathologist and Consultant, Medical Examiner and Detective: Lexington County Sheriff's Department; Author: “Money, Mischief, and Murder: The Murdaugh Dynasty...the Rest of the Story," "Homicide Investigation Field Guide" & "Child Abuse Investigation Field Guide;"Currently Working on New Book: "The Inside Story"
- Carsen Holaday- Senior News Reporter, The U.S. Sun
- Sydney Sumner - CRIME STORIES Investigative Reporter
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace Devil's Dan Horror. A mom
and a dad both slaughtered trying to protect their little
daughters from the hiking trail killer behind joins in the manhunt.
I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to
(00:21):
thank you for being with us. You guys, it's just
Securtive Devilston, you know still around that.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Had to mail a femail on Devilston hiking trail and
then took off from a small.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
Black sports car with tables with Lee and we.
Speaker 4 (00:32):
Suspect the suspect of injuries due to the witness seeing
the suspect that our suspects.
Speaker 5 (00:36):
The name has been a positive match to the DNA
that we suspected to belong to our suspect at the scene.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
Not just two hikers dead on a trail, a mother
and a father and the prime of their lives with
their two little girls ages seven and nine, brutally stabbed
dead on a fair emily hiking trail. But in the last.
Speaker 5 (01:03):
Hours this Arkansas State Police special agents have arrested James
Andrew McGann twenty eight, of Springdale. He's been charge of
two council capital murder in the district of Clinton, David Brink,
and Kristin Amanda Brink.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
I want you to hear this, Nancy.
Speaker 6 (01:20):
The next court date for Devil's Den double murder suspect
Andrew McGann is set for January fifteenth, twenty twenty six.
It will be a pre trial continuation hearing in Fayetteville, Arkansas.
His defense is seeking to remove the death penalty, but
prosecutors intend to pursue it. The case is expected to
(01:41):
involve many hearings before the trial happens. McGann appeared in
civilian clothing and without restraints in his November hearing. This
after a judge granted his defense request for civilian clothing.
The trial is expected to be lengthy, potentially taking years
before it actually makes it to the inside of a courtroom.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
How did we get here? Straight out to Carson Holiday,
joining US investigative senior news reporter us Son, I understand
the twenty eight year old alleged double killer is a
white male teacher who was just moved to this area,
(02:25):
and according to reports that we're trying to corroborate right now,
he was taken off his last job as a teacher
for inappropriate conduct with girls. Oh dear Lord in Heaven.
There he is, and it looks just like the composite sketch.
What is that? What do we know about this guy? Right?
Speaker 7 (02:50):
So, Nancy, we know that he had just moved from
Oklahoma to Arkansas and was preparing to be a third
grade teacher at the elementary school in the area. Right
to school confirmed that. And before that he worked in Texas,
right he was a fifth grade teacher.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
I believe you know, Angrea lewis joining me partner Sarce
Law firm, former felony prosecutor. If this is true, if
that is why he left Oklahoma and ended up here
and ended up at Devil's Den family hiking trail, why
in the world with the school have let it go quietly?
(03:33):
I just does it never end?
Speaker 8 (03:36):
You know?
Speaker 1 (03:36):
Hey, hey, Andrew, listen to what an ASP investigator had
to say.
Speaker 9 (03:41):
We're not going to talk about his motive right now.
We're still exploring and to determine exactly what that motive was,
So it would be a little premature for us to
speak on that tonight.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
Well, angew lewis I understand the Arkansas State Police investigators
caution regarding motive.
Speaker 10 (04:00):
I can certainly take a very educated guess here. This
man is obviously twisted. They say, don't judge a book
by its cover, but we can tell by just looking
at his mugshot something is wrong with him. And we
know that because, as you just stated, it appears from
reports that he is someone who has either preyed upon,
(04:22):
has fixated upon, or has some type of nefarious desires
towards young girls in the past. And of course he
works in a school setting. And as you know, Nancy,
that's my primary practice. I handle sex abuse cases. I've
prosecuted sex abuse cases and now I represent the victims.
(04:43):
I see this a lot, and I'll tell you and
you just hit the nail on the head. The most
frustrating thing when you have someone that is praying on children.
Ninety nine percent of the time, that is not an
isolated incident. These are people, it's in their soul and
what we need to do as a society and as
(05:04):
a community. And always remember if someone is acting strangely
towards children, if someone gives you the creeps, especially if
someone appears to be sexually attracted or giving unwanted attention
to children, you need to be screaming that from the rooftops.
The schools need to be coming out and telling the
(05:25):
community because all they do is move to the next
school or community and cause havoc there or in this case,
murder people, likely for the sole reason of getting to
the children.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
You know, there's a lot of speculation. Ron Bateman joining
me former sheriff and Arundel County, Maryland who investigated the
murder onland portrayal of Rachel mourn very similar to this case.
We were trying to determine motive. We knew, Ron Bateman,
that the little girls ran for their lives down this
(06:01):
rocky terrain there's Rachel Morin to get to safety. They
heard their mother screaming in the background. They said at
the time they saw their father getting stabbed, and that
the mom told them to run. So, when you were
analyzing for us in the hours after the double murder,
(06:22):
what may have happened the parents sent the little girls
to safety, and we talked about why would one guy
attack the husband, who is a big guy, A big guy,
all right, not that big, but really big and beefy.
Why would one guy take on the man and the woman,
(06:43):
the mom and the dad, And you deduced he had
tried to grab one of the little girls and the
parents were protecting them. Ron Bateman, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (06:54):
It's really clear now that we know what his background is,
which absolutely me off to think that a proper background
was not done on this guy before he was hired
to a school system, the third school system that he
worked at. If they would have done their dual due
diligence on him, they would have learned these other past
behaviors and they wouldn't have hired him. That wouldn't have
(07:18):
kept him from being at this trail that day. But
it's just unbelievable.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
Why may it may have, Ron Bateman, Because if he's
moving from Arkansas to here, I mean, if he's moving
to Arkansas, then he came there because he was hired.
If he hadn't been hired by the school, he probably
would have been in some other state. But I don't know.
All of that is just spinning out. This is the
(07:45):
kind of thing we do when we prep for a trial.
We try to give the jury a motive. But isn't
it true Carson Holiday joining us from us son? Isn't
it true that the authority said from the very beginning
the parents were slaughtered, trying to quote protect the little girls.
Didn't that come out at the beginning?
Speaker 7 (08:05):
Yes, in the family suddeness statement that they were trying
to save the little girls.
Speaker 4 (08:09):
We're all sleeping the trail. Me and I've got a
maintenance person with me, first day kids, trying to locate
the family here, still calling for help.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
We're hiking down Therefore, we're here.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
At PERI before get into the lower part of the
Devil's Entrail, try to relate to the author.
Speaker 4 (08:28):
And we found the victims down here.
Speaker 11 (08:29):
They're on the lower Devil's Entrail bodies.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
The fact that the mother and father are stabbed dead
with the little girls running away is a huge psychological
indicator as to who the purp is. First of all,
Carson Holiday, before I go to doctor Janie Lacy, I
want to figure out how this guy was arrested. Is
it true he was slung up in a barber chair
(08:55):
at a salon getting his hair clipped. He's not even
worried he's gonna get caught. Yep, he was mid haircut
when they arrested him.
Speaker 7 (09:07):
You know, he drove up with the car that he
escaped in and he was mid haircut when they handcuffed him.
The barber even took a video of police taking pictures
of the scene.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
You're seeing that right now. I believe it is Lupita Salon,
Lupita Salon. This is from Adriana Luis Avolos on Facebook
and she was afraid and concerned. There is the alleged
getaway car. It's exactly as it was described. I got
to give a big shout out to the witnesses that
(09:44):
I did that car. Now. I mean, I don't know
what it says to you. I'm just a trial lawyer.
But doctor Jamie Lacy joining a psychotherapist, author of How
to Heal from a Toxic relations Ship and more. Doctor,
He's not worried at all about being apprehended. That's pretty smug.
(10:09):
That's pretty arrogant. And I'm also curious if he was
going to get his hair shaved. Hey, let me get
the New York Control room to show you something really quickly,
Doctor Janey. I want to see the behind shot from
the rear of the alleged purp at the trail and
this outfit really cue a lot of witnesses. Doctor Jenny,
(10:32):
there it is. Now. If you zoom in on this,
which I've done a million times, you can see his
hair coming out from under his baseball cap. I wonder
if he saw this photo that we aired and realized
his hair color and his hair could be identified, and
(10:53):
he was at that salon me and haircut, I wondered,
was he getting his head buzzed? Was he getting his
hair up above his baseball cap? Long story short, isn't
that a tiny bit arrogant to be out slung up
and the salon's chair, just minding your own business after
a double murder and the cops are looking for you.
(11:16):
The ASP is nothing to be sneered at. And the
FBI was in on this thing.
Speaker 8 (11:21):
Well, Nancy, you said it arrogant and confident, So if
he was going about it, I would have probably imagined
that he absolutely saw that video and thought that he
was smarter and thought that he was going to get
away with this crime. Hence the remote location with no
cell phone service, the tape on his car, and all
these other types of things, the fingerless gloves that was reported,
(11:42):
and then the specific clothes that you just saw that
we just saw on the screen. So he's wearing these
black clothing and the middle of the forest with the backpack,
So arrogant and confident and disconnected from the prime in
the sense that he probably believed that he was going
to get away with this.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Pri Nancy to doctor Michelle Dupree joining us. You know
her well. She capable to to fame during the Alex
Murdog double murder trial. That's her jurisdiction. By the way,
she is the author of Money, Mischief and Murder the
Murdog Dynasty. She's the author of for my Purposes Homicide
(12:20):
Investigation Field Guide and Child Abuse Investigation Field Guide. Doctor
Dupree in that video, if I could see that again,
you see the Arkansas State troopers gathering his hair lying
there and it's from the hn Luis Avolo's Facebook. What
are they going to do with that hair? It gives
(12:42):
me hope there's DNA, explained doctor Dupree.
Speaker 12 (12:45):
Nancy, it's probably not going to be for DNA because
DNA you would need the actual hair root for that.
So I may be able to find trace evidence from
that if they can match his hair on.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
The mitochondrial DNA without a root. I know you need
the route for nuclear DNA, but what about mitochondrial DNA.
Can't you get that from a hair without a route?
Speaker 12 (13:05):
You might be able to get mitochondrial DNA, yes, yes,
but not the traditional DNA that we normally think of.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
Not to go deafcom four into the analysis of DNA.
But I have handled cases myself where a mitochondrial DNA
match was made to nuclear DNA on the scene. It
doesn't matter if it comes from the mother. You still
get the DNA match. You can yes straight out to
Ron Bateman joining us the hair on the floor from
(13:35):
the salon. That gives me hope that there will be
a DNA match. What does that mean? That means that
the perp somehow may have left DNA at the double
murder scene. That hair is important.
Speaker 4 (13:52):
Let me respond to that because I've talked about this
on other shows, transference of evidence. When you were somewhere
committing a crime, you most likely, always that makes sense,
will leave something behind, blood, hair, fingerprints, whatever, and you
will take something with you carpet, fibers, soil from the
(14:13):
from the ground, what have you. But in this case,
it sounds like and I would be all over that
hair too in the in the salon that most likely
I would bet money that there's hair at that scene
that they're looking to link.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
To McGann That what you're seeing right now is from
Agano Luis Ovolos on Facebook. You just said something super interesting,
Ron Bateman. I mean, it was all interesting to me
because I love crime scenes. You said the word soil.
I hope, I hope because we got a good description
of this guy, what he was wearing. I'm circle back
(14:48):
to Carson on that in a moment. But Ron, the
soil on that scene. He just moved here right to
take his new job at a teaching position. Scary the
soil on that scene. I wonder if they can match
that back to soil possibly even microscopic on his clothes,
(15:10):
on his shoes. Those parents put up the fight of
a lifetime, don't you know. They were grabbing at his hair,
leaving DNA on him, getting his DNA on them, and
then the possibility of soil from the hiking trail on
his clothes. Ron.
Speaker 4 (15:30):
Yeah, the app the FBI, who is providing special resources
in this case, will definitely be able to compare that
soil to soil that's found on his shoes, for example,
and putting him right on the scene.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
You know another thing. Carson Holiday joining us along with
Sidney Sumner from Crime Stories. Carson joining us us Son, Carson.
I know this sounds crazy, right, but it's not. And
I've had other victims and witnesses tell me this, and
they're separated in time and space, that they got a
quote bad vibe off the purp. Now, in this case,
(16:08):
I was going to come to you about what he
was wearing that stuck out like a sore thumb, because
we were talking to Bateman about the shoes and the
possibility that soil samples from the hiking trail are on
his clothes. But this guy was decked out in all black,
and witnesses have stated we saw him, he wouldn't even
(16:30):
look us in the eyes we passed him. Look at this,
it's almost one hundred degrees weather out there, Carson. Isn't
it true that one of the eyewitnesses said he gave
her a bad feeling, He put off a bad vibe
and they noticed it and I'm getting a vibe. I'm
just looking at him. But they remembered it and recounted
(16:53):
it to police. Exactly, Nancy.
Speaker 7 (16:56):
I think, especially as women, when you walk by a
big guy like that and you know he's just kind
of polking over in his dark clothes, it would be
impossible to not immediately get a feeling from him, and
maybe he was hurrying away from the scene, maybe he
was walking with some sort of focus. I mean, he
was stepped out in long sleeves, a black hat, black
(17:18):
head to toe, and he had that giant backpack on him.
He just seemed disheveled and again wearing that really hot
seeming clothes in such humid Arkansas heat. It would be
weird to not spot him and to not remember him
when you were asked.
Speaker 13 (17:33):
To go for a white male suspect wearing black clothes, sunglasses,
and dark colored pants and two children are there.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
We have more breaking news tonight the Arkansas State Police
giving us more details of the arrest in the Devil's
Den double homicide.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
Take a listen from KOTV.
Speaker 11 (17:52):
As we began to hone in on the vehicle, it
became clear that it was a Kia Stinger, and we
use that information to vet various owners, and our suspect
was identified.
Speaker 13 (18:08):
Terrifying screens and calls for help are heard in Arkansas
State Park Devil's Den, prompting nearby hikers to sound of alarm.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
What authorities find it shocks everyone in the last hours.
In fact, it was announced in the night, and arrest
has been made in the double homicide, the brutal knifing
of a mom and dad at Devil's Den hiking trail
straight out to Ron Bateman joining US former sheriff and
(18:38):
Arundel County, Maryland who exhaustively investigated the Rachel Mooren murders
very similar to this case. Weig in.
Speaker 4 (18:46):
So if you go back to the picture of the
suspect from behind, you will notice what he's wearing is
not a hoodie. It's either a turtleneck, which I don't
believe it's a turtleneck. It looks like he could be
one of those full face covers that we wear during
a pandemic or people wear all the time, whether hunting
or fishing. But that seems very unusual to me. Do
(19:09):
you see that at the top of his neck that's
not an article of clothing like a shirt or a turtleneck.
That could be where he could pull something over his
face and his nose and cover his nose's mouth and
you know the rest of his face. And if you
see that picture there, he's mid haircut. He's not getting
a buzz cut, he's not getting all his hair saved.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
Off.
Speaker 4 (19:28):
He's too vain for that.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
At least to me, like he's getting it cut, possibly
shaved up the bat but it's all above his ears.
See what's happening. And he was mid haircut, so we
don't really know what they were doing, but we know
he was getting it off of his collar and way up.
Doctor Janey Lacey joining me, Let's take a look at
(19:51):
what he is wearing, Doctor Janey, look at this. I
see why someone has mentioned it looks like his got
a ball of clava down around his neck. Oh Ron
Bateman said that we see that, we see a huge backpack.
What does he have in that? And the backpack itself
(20:12):
is easily identifiable. I'm just wondering if they found that
backpack that matches up to this photo. So, doctor Janie Lacy,
the way he's dressed, I mean, it's got to be
the victims DNA all over him, and I guarantee these
items are going to be found in his closet at
(20:34):
his new apartment.
Speaker 8 (20:35):
I would certainly hope so, Nancy, because as we're looking
at what he's wearing, that would say a lot of
sorry is he's premeditation that he probably planned to have
everything that he needed in that bag, which will probably
tell us a lot about what he was planning when
they receive that backpack and the contents of that backpack,
And I would imagine with the parents and their instinct
(20:57):
to save and to protect the children, that they're DNA
that there's other evidence that would be on his clothing.
So to me, that would be really important that they
recover not only that backpack, but all of his clothing
that we see in this picture to be able to learn.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
A lot about this horrific crime and his violent behavior.
Crime Stories, with Nancy Grace Sidney Sumner joining me, Crime
Stories investigative reporter explain to us what we know right
(21:35):
now about the slaughter at Devil's Den? What do we
know happened? Pieced together by the nine one one calls
little girls running down the trail screaming what they reported?
How do we think the attacks went down Sydney Right.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
Well, we don't have any publicly released information on what
actually happened. We have been hearing these little snippets of
nine to one one dispatch radio and that's where we're
starting to piece together what happened. So apparently this family
is walking on the trail mom and dad two little girls,
and they are approached by Andrew apparently at this point,
(22:19):
and he starts to attack the parents, attacks dad, possibly
stab dad in the chest. While the two little girls
are still with their parents, Mom tells these two young girls,
they are just seven and nine years old, to run
as far and as fast as they can and try
and get help. So these girls take off, and what
(22:42):
they tell the nine to one one dispatcher is that
they ran until they couldn't hear their mom screaming anymore.
So they run into some adult on the trail, and
we think that they ran a very long distance, almost
a mile, until they ran into we're not sure, some
kind of an adult, maybe another family, a couple, and
(23:03):
someone escorted them to the visitor center, where an attendant
called nine one one, and at this point the attendant
just believed that maybe these children were just separated from
their family. It wasn't until the girls were put on
the phone directly with the nine one one dispatcher that
it was understood that their parents had actually been attacked.
(23:23):
So at this point that's when you hear Stage four
police two people have been attacked, possible stabbing, and officers
are now searching the trail for these injured people, and
what we know is that officers actually heard falls for
help before they made it out to Clinton and Kristen Brink,
(23:45):
So it was so sad that they were so close
to possibly have gotten these parents' medical attention that they needed,
but by the time they located Kristen and Clinton, they
were deceased.
Speaker 3 (23:57):
While first responders initially hear screen and calls for help,
by the time they reached the victims on the trail,
it's clear the victims are deceased. There's no sign of
their attacker. Officers quickly clear the trail, speaking with hikers
as they exit the park to piece together what happened.
Several hikers remember passing the family and many others on
the trail, but a few point out there was only
(24:20):
one person they saw alone on the trail that day,
a medium build, white man wearing dark clothes, a ball cap,
and sunglasses with dark blonde or light brown hair.
Speaker 13 (24:30):
What's supposed to be a memorable family hike ends in
a brutal tragedy when the bodies of a mom and
dad are suddenly discovered in an Arkansas state park with.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
Me an all star panel tomate any sense of what
we are learning right now. We do know that overnight
it was announced and arrest had been made. The so
called Devil's Den Hike trail killer was apprehended, according to police.
Carson Holiday joining us from son, Carson, I'm trying to
(25:02):
figure out how this guy was apprehended, what led to him.
I have a reason to believe it may have been
his vehicle, But Carson Holiday, you may have a different theory.
How was this guy identified?
Speaker 7 (25:15):
I believe it was the composite sketch. The composite sketch
was really right on, and he was wearing I mean,
obviously we have that picture from behind that I feel
like is very recognizable. That backpack is pretty unique. Again,
the balaklava sort of thing around his neck, and then
the hat, that all just seems very recognizable. I believe
(25:39):
someone saw him going in to get the haircut, which
is where he was arrested, and maybe called it in. Obviously,
we'll learn more as the police release more details.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
We're learning that police, well it's Arkansas State Police along
with the FBI, are crediting video tips. I don't really
know what that means, but video tips also to doctor
Michelle Dupree joining US renowned pathologist, medical examiner, and former detective.
(26:09):
When I hear people talk about balaklava, now I can't help.
I will forever think of Brian Coberger and it sounds
like this guy took a page out of Coburger's book.
Coburger dressed all in black, face, mask, gloves, The work
works just like this guy. What do you make of it?
(26:31):
Does that really protect you from DNA transfers?
Speaker 12 (26:34):
No, Nancy, it doesn't. I think that he was under
a misconception that it would. But there are still going
to be lots of trace evidence on hairs, fibers, soil,
things like that. It gives him a false sense of
security that he won't be identified, and it does make
it harder to identify, but there are still ways to
do that. And as we've seen here, there's a great
(26:54):
sketch of him.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
It really is, it really is. You know, that's hard
to do, doctor Michelle Dupre, You and I have worked
with a lot of composite sketches. It looks nothing like
the person, and the defense has a field day with
it at trial. I mean, I've seen some composite sketches
that didn't look at all like the But I had
a DNA match, so I know it's him. Long story short,
(27:18):
the defense gets a hold of that back and posit
and goes, look, that's not him, and that's not a
good look for the prosecution in this case. I think
you're absolutely right. I think it looks a lot like him.
But doctor Michelle Duprey, not only author and pathologist, also
former detective now Kerson Holiday thinks that it had to
(27:40):
do with other evidence. I think it had to do
the apprehending him had to do with this car because
you look and you see in the database who's there,
who's in the jurisdiction driving a black Mazda four door
with I don't know if the whole tag was covered up,
if partial tag was covered up. Look at this. This
is again from Adriana luis Avolos on Facebook. There it
(28:04):
is right there. Yep, it's a four door, just like
the witnesses said. And the car database is easy to find.
Now we know part of that tag was obscured with
duct tape. He planned a him. But even if you
get the outside of the tag, you can identify the
state and maybe more so, what do you think led
(28:26):
them to this guy apprehended, all kicked back getting his
hair done.
Speaker 12 (28:31):
Nancy, I think you're actually right. I think that someone
saw this car and probably saw it maybe being parked,
and saw this person going into the barbershop to get
a haircut, and then you match that up with the sketch,
and I think you've absolutely got it. You've got it
wrapped up.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
Hey, listen to this, doctor dupray.
Speaker 3 (28:49):
Several other hikers take notice of a man in dark
clothes on Devil's Done Trail one nine call, reporting he
appeared to have blood on him. While initial reports put
the sub inspecked in a black tank top, police revise
the description to a dark colored long sleeved shirt with
the sleeves rolled up. Some witnesses saw the man get
in a black four door sports car. Others report a
(29:12):
similar car driving erratically as it leaves the park area.
Their descriptions are vague, but all have two commonalities. It
was loud, and there was tape covering the license plate.
Police believe the vehicle may have been traveling on Arkansas
one seventy or Arkansas two twenty.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
I'm not saying Crosston Holidays wrong. She may very well
be right. She knows the facts like the back of
her hand. But doctor Dupray, it's coburger all over again.
Here you've got the guy in this case Devil's Den,
driving erratically and a really loud car that went out
on the airwaves Pronto describing him. They composite, but that
(29:52):
car it got on either Arkansas one seventy or two twenty.
They have cams, they have life subscrabbers, and if you're
driving erradically, people are going to notice, just like b K.
Brian Coberger's white Elantra was noticed. I mean, it's a
dead giveaway. What about that possibility, Doctor Dupree, Absolutely.
Speaker 12 (30:15):
Nancy that you're right, that is going to be noticed
by anybody that's in the vicinity. And if they call
that in and then again they do match it up
with the sketch. I think you're right. I think somebody
saw that car. I think somebody saw that being parked
near that barber shop. And I think that is how
they apprehended him right then, and they are.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
Ooh yes, by the barbershop. Brilliant and he was so arrogant,
this guy idiot. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, doctor Janey
(30:53):
Lacey and I say, idiot with full venom, have you
ever being minding your own business? I don't know if
you live in an apartment or a house or in
traffic and you hear and you know what is that
in some muscle car going by with a screwed up
muffler and everybody notices it. This guy like Coburger going
(31:18):
round and around and around the murder scene in his
white Alantra. Hello, we see you on ring cams. We
can see you. This guy drives off nine amph and thanks,
nobody will notice, and then parks in front of the salon.
Speaker 8 (31:34):
Well, Nancy, that says a lot about he thought his
self importance and him living in the little bubble and
not necessarily having self awareness. Right, So when we see
people who are arrogant personality disordered, have a lot of
history of just being self focused and their self importance
is so inflated that these are the types of people
(31:55):
that we will see that are not considered of other people.
And in this situation of him going to the barbershop
and him going going loudly at that is to say
that his self importance is over confidence and just really
thinking that he probably was going to get away with
this crime in this sense, especially when we look at
his self importance and his lack of self awareness.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
I'm so glad you said that doctor Janey. Andrew lewis
joining US veteran trial lawyer at Circe Law, but former
felony prosecutor. The more arrogant they are, the better it
is for the state, because they think that they're not
going to be noticed, and they're smarter than everybody in
the room. And in this case, it's little things, Andrew.
(32:40):
If Carson Holliday is right, and I think she is,
there's a good chance there's DNA and that there are
video tips. It's other little things. Did I ever tell
you about the bank robber I prosecuted gets a ton
of money out of what was then a c Ands bank,
and you know what got him a little thing. They
(33:02):
didn't even have video. They had steal photos of the purp,
but you could see he was slew footed, walk like
a duck, right, And of course he took the stand,
Thank you Heaven. He takes a stand and everybody hung
over the jury rail to watch him walk, and he
walked up just as slew footed as daffy duck. Okay,
(33:23):
So what I'm saying is little things like that car
pulling up and parking right there forgotten everybody to see
in front of the salon. You hear that, and of
course you look at it and you think, hey, that
looks like Demazda. Everybody's looking for Andrea. Idiot? How many
(33:44):
times can I say idiot in one segment? But what
about it, Andrea Lewis, You're one hundred percent right.
Speaker 10 (33:50):
You know, I think most people who maybe aren't in
the courtroom as much as prosecutors are, maybe some other lawyers,
don't realize how the defendant themselves can really just be
a treasure trove of information, not only in evidence before,
not only in just their statements potentially to police, but
(34:10):
as you noted, in.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
The courtroom their mannerisms.
Speaker 10 (34:13):
Because if they're arrogant outside the courtroom, imagine how they
act inside the courtroom and the jurors can pick up
on that and they want to, you know, wipe that
smile right off their face.
Speaker 1 (34:26):
And I think that's what's happened here. He just got you.
Speaker 10 (34:28):
Know, cocky, He thought he was untouchable. I totally agree
with you and the other guest. I think that we're
going to find here that there's DNA that got you
got his car. It sounds like you have multiple people
on the hiking trail. I would assume that it was
one of the adults that probably got a good look
at him. I remember there were some witness statements when
(34:49):
when the initial reports went out, who did that the
composite which is excellent, so they have a lot and
for all we know, he spoke to police, So I think,
think it'll just.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
Keep getting better. Gots something else for you. Andrea ron
Bateman was going to do a backflip. But before we
show him doing his backflip, did you know that Lupida's salon,
According to our very very extensive a Google map search,
Lupida's Salon is less than thirty minutes away from Devil's Den.
(35:22):
He didn't even leave the jurisdiction. He's that arrogant and
parks in the front of the salon where the whole
world is looking for his car.
Speaker 10 (35:34):
It really it defies common sense.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
And you brought up coburger.
Speaker 10 (35:39):
That was the first thing I thought about when we
started hearing these initial reports over the last couple of days,
because imagine a town like this, who everybody's on high alert.
I mean, people across the country are following this case.
Imagine what big news it is locally there. So everybody
in a four door sedan, you know, is getting stared
(36:01):
at when they go to traffic lights and as they
drive around, they're on high alert. The town's on hilert.
So for this man to.
Speaker 1 (36:10):
Just be so stupid that he would.
Speaker 10 (36:12):
Stick around not think that anyone would notice him. He's
sort of a strange looking guy to begin with. I mean,
he stands out is just foolish and fortunately for the family,
he was caught and hopefully will spend the rest of
his life in prison or get the death penalty.
Speaker 1 (36:31):
Overnight, a presser announcing the arrest of the alleged double
killer snared in the Devil's Den hiking trail murders to
Ron Bateman, joining US Farmer Sheriff and Arundel County, Maryland,
who has investigated multiple cases very similar to this. If
you look at this guy, Okay, he moves to town
(36:54):
to another state after resigning from his last elementary school position,
where he was quote so close to the students. He
comes here, apparently doesn't know anybody, takes an out of
state job, lives all alone, reportedly having left that job
(37:18):
after claims he had an inappropriate contact. I don't know
what that means. That can mean calling children on the phone,
It can mean texting them, it can mean a lot more.
We don't know that yet. But then would he leap
from that to trying to publicly nab a little girl
(37:41):
on a hiking trail? No wonder the mom and dad
fought to the death.
Speaker 4 (37:46):
Okay, So I made another observation of that backpack contraption
that he has he's wearing. First off, that gym bag
is attached to a backpack apparatus, and that backpack apparatus
has what looks to me to be a camelback apparatus
to it, which means it has water in it and
it comes around. So to me, that looks like the
(38:09):
moron who's wearing long sleeve black shirt and black pants
and a hat in ninety five degree weather is and
for the long run because of hydration. This gives him
hydration to stay out there. So that looks like a
camel backpack to me, with an attachment of a gym
bag to it. So who knows what the heck is
in that drim gym bag. I'd love to see the tape,
(38:31):
the rope, the knives or whatever's in there.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
Would he be that brazen ron?
Speaker 4 (38:36):
Yeah? Well, I mean he's not that smart.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
To try and nab a little girl in front of
her parents. Well, I mean, for all I know, like
in Rachel Mooren's case, that perp waited until nobody else
was around, and Rachel was at a curve, remember a
curve where people behind couldn't see exactly what was happening ahead,
(39:01):
and he dragged her off the trail, her mother of five.
For all I know, the little girls were running ahead
of mom and dad, which happens frequently, and he saw
them and didn't see mom and dad and tried to
grab one and the girl's screen. I wonder if that's
how this whole thing is going to play out.
Speaker 2 (39:20):
Run.
Speaker 4 (39:20):
Yeah, you know what, he probably had tunnel vision. Your parent.
I'm a parent. You know when the kids are little,
you know, they don't want to stick by mom and
dad's side. They're running ahead, or they're hanging behind, they're
playing on logs or doing what have you, exploring the woods,
And that could have very well happened and been slightly
out of sight of mom and dad. But this guy
had tunnel vision. He knew what he was going after,
(39:41):
probably one of those two little girls or both, and
just was oblivious to mom and Dad's presence.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
You know, Carson Holliday joining us from the US son.
I'm just we're analyzing how is he tracked, how is
he caught? Was their DNA? Did the hair have mitochondrial
dnan on? But what it boils down to is this
mom and dad gave their lives trying to protect the
little girls. That's the first words we were hearing. They
died trying to protect the girls. And I spun that
(40:10):
out and try to figure out what does that mean. Okay,
these two little girls, and I think they've got a
third sister, will spend the rest of their lives without
mom and dad and there's no replacement for that. And
not only that, the survivor guilt. They died trying to
(40:30):
save me. I mean, that's what this is all about.
And stabbing death is a brutal way to die. It's
not like you die in your sleep, or you breathe
in carbon monoxide you don't even know what's happening, or
you take too many pills and you just drift off
to sleep. No, it's it's a horrible way to die.
(40:55):
And if the police are right, Arkansas State Police, this
guy did it. I bet you anything, Carson. He didn't
go from zero to one hundred mph in one afternoon, right,
there's got to be a trail behind him. But what
happens now? Where is he and what's next?
Speaker 7 (41:14):
Well, he was booked into jail last night. We obviously
saw that terrifying mugshot, and police said that he could
appear in court for his arraignment as soon as tomorrow morning.
So we'll really be checking back in and seeing, you know,
how he appears in court, what jail is going to
(41:35):
look like for him. I really can't imagine that it
would be a great experience for him.
Speaker 1 (41:39):
There.
Speaker 7 (41:40):
You know, he just ripped two parents away from their
young daughters, and like you said, the young daughters, I mean,
the survivor's gil is just going to be awful, especially
considering that the mom told the little girls to run
and get help, and that they were screaming for help
up until they came along.
Speaker 12 (41:59):
To their body.
Speaker 7 (42:00):
I mean, it's just horrific.
Speaker 1 (42:02):
Mom and dad had just moved to this jurisdiction, Dad
starting a brand new job. I think it would have
been yesterday delivering milk mom a nurse. Well, we know
what's going to happen, Andrea. He is going to have
a first appearance, which under the law, if you are
(42:24):
behind mars, you have to be brought into a court,
whether it's a magistrate, a superior court judge, a state
court judge, and you have to be told why you're
being charged in open court, no secret proceedings. That's going
to happen. Then there'll probably be a grand jury indictment
on two capital murder cases. This is a death penalty jurisdiction.
(42:46):
Then he'll probably be assigned a public defender with death
penalty experience. I mean, this is more than one body
that equals mass murder under the law. That's what's going
to spin out. Then we're going to spend millions of
dollars while he sits behind bars. I believe it's Washington
County jail with people rallying to his aid, women falling
(43:10):
in love with him and sending him love letters and
special meals, all sorts of things like ahead for him.
We wait as justice and folds, and we will be
in court for that arrangement. Nancy Grace signing off goodbye friend,
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace Devil's Dan Horror. A mom
and a dad both slaughtered trying to protect their little
daughters from the hiking trail killer behind joins in the manhunt.
I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to
(00:21):
thank you for being with us. You guys, it's just
Securtive Devilston, you know still around that.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Had to mail a femail on Devilston hiking trail and
then took off from a small.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
Black sports car with tables with Lee and we.
Speaker 4 (00:32):
Suspect the suspect of injuries due to the witness seeing
the suspect that our suspects.
Speaker 5 (00:36):
The name has been a positive match to the DNA
that we suspected to belong to our suspect at the scene.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
Not just two hikers dead on a trail, a mother
and a father and the prime of their lives with
their two little girls ages seven and nine, brutally stabbed
dead on a fair emily hiking trail. But in the last.
Speaker 5 (01:03):
Hours this Arkansas State Police special agents have arrested James
Andrew McGann twenty eight, of Springdale. He's been charge of
two council capital murder in the district of Clinton, David Brink,
and Kristin Amanda Brink.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
I want you to hear this, Nancy.
Speaker 6 (01:20):
The next court date for Devil's Den double murder suspect
Andrew McGann is set for January fifteenth, twenty twenty six.
It will be a pre trial continuation hearing in Fayetteville, Arkansas.
His defense is seeking to remove the death penalty, but
prosecutors intend to pursue it. The case is expected to
(01:41):
involve many hearings before the trial happens. McGann appeared in
civilian clothing and without restraints in his November hearing. This
after a judge granted his defense request for civilian clothing.
The trial is expected to be lengthy, potentially taking years
before it actually makes it to the inside of a courtroom.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
How did we get here? Straight out to Carson Holiday,
joining US investigative senior news reporter us Son, I understand
the twenty eight year old alleged double killer is a
white male teacher who was just moved to this area,
(02:25):
and according to reports that we're trying to corroborate right now,
he was taken off his last job as a teacher
for inappropriate conduct with girls. Oh dear Lord in Heaven.
There he is, and it looks just like the composite sketch.
What is that? What do we know about this guy? Right?
Speaker 7 (02:50):
So, Nancy, we know that he had just moved from
Oklahoma to Arkansas and was preparing to be a third
grade teacher at the elementary school in the area. Right
to school confirmed that. And before that he worked in Texas,
right he was a fifth grade teacher.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
I believe you know, Angrea lewis joining me partner Sarce
Law firm, former felony prosecutor. If this is true, if
that is why he left Oklahoma and ended up here
and ended up at Devil's Den family hiking trail, why
in the world with the school have let it go quietly?
(03:33):
I just does it never end?
Speaker 8 (03:36):
You know?
Speaker 1 (03:36):
Hey, hey, Andrew, listen to what an ASP investigator had
to say.
Speaker 9 (03:41):
We're not going to talk about his motive right now.
We're still exploring and to determine exactly what that motive was,
So it would be a little premature for us to
speak on that tonight.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
Well, angew lewis I understand the Arkansas State Police investigators
caution regarding motive.
Speaker 10 (04:00):
I can certainly take a very educated guess here. This
man is obviously twisted. They say, don't judge a book
by its cover, but we can tell by just looking
at his mugshot something is wrong with him. And we
know that because, as you just stated, it appears from
reports that he is someone who has either preyed upon,
(04:22):
has fixated upon, or has some type of nefarious desires
towards young girls in the past. And of course he
works in a school setting. And as you know, Nancy,
that's my primary practice. I handle sex abuse cases. I've
prosecuted sex abuse cases and now I represent the victims.
(04:43):
I see this a lot, and I'll tell you and
you just hit the nail on the head. The most
frustrating thing when you have someone that is praying on children.
Ninety nine percent of the time, that is not an
isolated incident. These are people, it's in their soul and
what we need to do as a society and as
(05:04):
a community. And always remember if someone is acting strangely
towards children, if someone gives you the creeps, especially if
someone appears to be sexually attracted or giving unwanted attention
to children, you need to be screaming that from the rooftops.
The schools need to be coming out and telling the
(05:25):
community because all they do is move to the next
school or community and cause havoc there or in this case,
murder people, likely for the sole reason of getting to
the children.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
You know, there's a lot of speculation. Ron Bateman joining
me former sheriff and Arundel County, Maryland who investigated the
murder onland portrayal of Rachel mourn very similar to this case.
We were trying to determine motive. We knew, Ron Bateman,
that the little girls ran for their lives down this
(06:01):
rocky terrain there's Rachel Morin to get to safety. They
heard their mother screaming in the background. They said at
the time they saw their father getting stabbed, and that
the mom told them to run. So, when you were
analyzing for us in the hours after the double murder,
(06:22):
what may have happened the parents sent the little girls
to safety, and we talked about why would one guy
attack the husband, who is a big guy, A big guy,
all right, not that big, but really big and beefy.
Why would one guy take on the man and the woman,
(06:43):
the mom and the dad, And you deduced he had
tried to grab one of the little girls and the
parents were protecting them. Ron Bateman, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (06:54):
It's really clear now that we know what his background is,
which absolutely me off to think that a proper background
was not done on this guy before he was hired
to a school system, the third school system that he
worked at. If they would have done their dual due
diligence on him, they would have learned these other past
behaviors and they wouldn't have hired him. That wouldn't have
(07:18):
kept him from being at this trail that day. But
it's just unbelievable.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
Why may it may have, Ron Bateman, Because if he's
moving from Arkansas to here, I mean, if he's moving
to Arkansas, then he came there because he was hired.
If he hadn't been hired by the school, he probably
would have been in some other state. But I don't know.
All of that is just spinning out. This is the
(07:45):
kind of thing we do when we prep for a trial.
We try to give the jury a motive. But isn't
it true Carson Holiday joining us from us son? Isn't
it true that the authority said from the very beginning
the parents were slaughtered, trying to quote protect the little girls.
Didn't that come out at the beginning?
Speaker 7 (08:05):
Yes, in the family suddeness statement that they were trying
to save the little girls.
Speaker 4 (08:09):
We're all sleeping the trail. Me and I've got a
maintenance person with me, first day kids, trying to locate
the family here, still calling for help.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
We're hiking down Therefore, we're here.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
At PERI before get into the lower part of the
Devil's Entrail, try to relate to the author.
Speaker 4 (08:28):
And we found the victims down here.
Speaker 11 (08:29):
They're on the lower Devil's Entrail bodies.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
The fact that the mother and father are stabbed dead
with the little girls running away is a huge psychological
indicator as to who the purp is. First of all,
Carson Holiday, before I go to doctor Janie Lacy, I
want to figure out how this guy was arrested. Is
it true he was slung up in a barber chair
(08:55):
at a salon getting his hair clipped. He's not even
worried he's gonna get caught. Yep, he was mid haircut
when they arrested him.
Speaker 7 (09:07):
You know, he drove up with the car that he
escaped in and he was mid haircut when they handcuffed him.
The barber even took a video of police taking pictures
of the scene.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
You're seeing that right now. I believe it is Lupita Salon,
Lupita Salon. This is from Adriana Luis Avolos on Facebook
and she was afraid and concerned. There is the alleged
getaway car. It's exactly as it was described. I got
to give a big shout out to the witnesses that
(09:44):
I did that car. Now. I mean, I don't know
what it says to you. I'm just a trial lawyer.
But doctor Jamie Lacy joining a psychotherapist, author of How
to Heal from a Toxic relations Ship and more. Doctor,
He's not worried at all about being apprehended. That's pretty smug.
(10:09):
That's pretty arrogant. And I'm also curious if he was
going to get his hair shaved. Hey, let me get
the New York Control room to show you something really quickly,
Doctor Janey. I want to see the behind shot from
the rear of the alleged purp at the trail and
this outfit really cue a lot of witnesses. Doctor Jenny,
(10:32):
there it is. Now. If you zoom in on this,
which I've done a million times, you can see his
hair coming out from under his baseball cap. I wonder
if he saw this photo that we aired and realized
his hair color and his hair could be identified, and
(10:53):
he was at that salon me and haircut, I wondered,
was he getting his head buzzed? Was he getting his
hair up above his baseball cap? Long story short, isn't
that a tiny bit arrogant to be out slung up
and the salon's chair, just minding your own business after
a double murder and the cops are looking for you.
(11:16):
The ASP is nothing to be sneered at. And the
FBI was in on this thing.
Speaker 8 (11:21):
Well, Nancy, you said it arrogant and confident, So if
he was going about it, I would have probably imagined
that he absolutely saw that video and thought that he
was smarter and thought that he was going to get
away with this crime. Hence the remote location with no
cell phone service, the tape on his car, and all
these other types of things, the fingerless gloves that was reported,
(11:42):
and then the specific clothes that you just saw that
we just saw on the screen. So he's wearing these
black clothing and the middle of the forest with the backpack,
So arrogant and confident and disconnected from the prime in
the sense that he probably believed that he was going
to get away with this.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Pri Nancy to doctor Michelle Dupree joining us. You know
her well. She capable to to fame during the Alex
Murdog double murder trial. That's her jurisdiction. By the way,
she is the author of Money, Mischief and Murder the
Murdog Dynasty. She's the author of for my Purposes Homicide
(12:20):
Investigation Field Guide and Child Abuse Investigation Field Guide. Doctor
Dupree in that video, if I could see that again,
you see the Arkansas State troopers gathering his hair lying
there and it's from the hn Luis Avolo's Facebook. What
are they going to do with that hair? It gives
(12:42):
me hope there's DNA, explained doctor Dupree.
Speaker 12 (12:45):
Nancy, it's probably not going to be for DNA because
DNA you would need the actual hair root for that.
So I may be able to find trace evidence from
that if they can match his hair on.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
The mitochondrial DNA without a root. I know you need
the route for nuclear DNA, but what about mitochondrial DNA.
Can't you get that from a hair without a route?
Speaker 12 (13:05):
You might be able to get mitochondrial DNA, yes, yes,
but not the traditional DNA that we normally think of.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
Not to go deafcom four into the analysis of DNA.
But I have handled cases myself where a mitochondrial DNA
match was made to nuclear DNA on the scene. It
doesn't matter if it comes from the mother. You still
get the DNA match. You can yes straight out to
Ron Bateman joining us the hair on the floor from
(13:35):
the salon. That gives me hope that there will be
a DNA match. What does that mean? That means that
the perp somehow may have left DNA at the double
murder scene. That hair is important.
Speaker 4 (13:52):
Let me respond to that because I've talked about this
on other shows, transference of evidence. When you were somewhere
committing a crime, you most likely, always that makes sense,
will leave something behind, blood, hair, fingerprints, whatever, and you
will take something with you carpet, fibers, soil from the
(14:13):
from the ground, what have you. But in this case,
it sounds like and I would be all over that
hair too in the in the salon that most likely
I would bet money that there's hair at that scene
that they're looking to link.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
To McGann That what you're seeing right now is from
Agano Luis Ovolos on Facebook. You just said something super interesting,
Ron Bateman. I mean, it was all interesting to me
because I love crime scenes. You said the word soil.
I hope, I hope because we got a good description
of this guy, what he was wearing. I'm circle back
(14:48):
to Carson on that in a moment. But Ron, the
soil on that scene. He just moved here right to
take his new job at a teaching position. Scary the
soil on that scene. I wonder if they can match
that back to soil possibly even microscopic on his clothes,
(15:10):
on his shoes. Those parents put up the fight of
a lifetime, don't you know. They were grabbing at his hair,
leaving DNA on him, getting his DNA on them, and
then the possibility of soil from the hiking trail on
his clothes. Ron.
Speaker 4 (15:30):
Yeah, the app the FBI, who is providing special resources
in this case, will definitely be able to compare that
soil to soil that's found on his shoes, for example,
and putting him right on the scene.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
You know another thing. Carson Holiday joining us along with
Sidney Sumner from Crime Stories. Carson joining us us Son, Carson.
I know this sounds crazy, right, but it's not. And
I've had other victims and witnesses tell me this, and
they're separated in time and space, that they got a
quote bad vibe off the purp. Now, in this case,
(16:08):
I was going to come to you about what he
was wearing that stuck out like a sore thumb, because
we were talking to Bateman about the shoes and the
possibility that soil samples from the hiking trail are on
his clothes. But this guy was decked out in all black,
and witnesses have stated we saw him, he wouldn't even
(16:30):
look us in the eyes we passed him. Look at this,
it's almost one hundred degrees weather out there, Carson. Isn't
it true that one of the eyewitnesses said he gave
her a bad feeling, He put off a bad vibe
and they noticed it and I'm getting a vibe. I'm
just looking at him. But they remembered it and recounted
(16:53):
it to police. Exactly, Nancy.
Speaker 7 (16:56):
I think, especially as women, when you walk by a
big guy like that and you know he's just kind
of polking over in his dark clothes, it would be
impossible to not immediately get a feeling from him, and
maybe he was hurrying away from the scene, maybe he
was walking with some sort of focus. I mean, he
was stepped out in long sleeves, a black hat, black
(17:18):
head to toe, and he had that giant backpack on him.
He just seemed disheveled and again wearing that really hot
seeming clothes in such humid Arkansas heat. It would be
weird to not spot him and to not remember him
when you were asked.
Speaker 13 (17:33):
To go for a white male suspect wearing black clothes, sunglasses,
and dark colored pants and two children are there.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
We have more breaking news tonight the Arkansas State Police
giving us more details of the arrest in the Devil's
Den double homicide.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
Take a listen from KOTV.
Speaker 11 (17:52):
As we began to hone in on the vehicle, it
became clear that it was a Kia Stinger, and we
use that information to vet various owners, and our suspect
was identified.
Speaker 13 (18:08):
Terrifying screens and calls for help are heard in Arkansas
State Park Devil's Den, prompting nearby hikers to sound of alarm.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
What authorities find it shocks everyone in the last hours.
In fact, it was announced in the night, and arrest
has been made in the double homicide, the brutal knifing
of a mom and dad at Devil's Den hiking trail
straight out to Ron Bateman joining US former sheriff and
(18:38):
Arundel County, Maryland who exhaustively investigated the Rachel Mooren murders
very similar to this case. Weig in.
Speaker 4 (18:46):
So if you go back to the picture of the
suspect from behind, you will notice what he's wearing is
not a hoodie. It's either a turtleneck, which I don't
believe it's a turtleneck. It looks like he could be
one of those full face covers that we wear during
a pandemic or people wear all the time, whether hunting
or fishing. But that seems very unusual to me. Do
(19:09):
you see that at the top of his neck that's
not an article of clothing like a shirt or a turtleneck.
That could be where he could pull something over his
face and his nose and cover his nose's mouth and
you know the rest of his face. And if you
see that picture there, he's mid haircut. He's not getting
a buzz cut, he's not getting all his hair saved.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
Off.
Speaker 4 (19:28):
He's too vain for that.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
At least to me, like he's getting it cut, possibly
shaved up the bat but it's all above his ears.
See what's happening. And he was mid haircut, so we
don't really know what they were doing, but we know
he was getting it off of his collar and way up.
Doctor Janey Lacey joining me, Let's take a look at
(19:51):
what he is wearing, Doctor Janey, look at this. I
see why someone has mentioned it looks like his got
a ball of clava down around his neck. Oh Ron
Bateman said that we see that, we see a huge backpack.
What does he have in that? And the backpack itself
(20:12):
is easily identifiable. I'm just wondering if they found that
backpack that matches up to this photo. So, doctor Janie Lacy,
the way he's dressed, I mean, it's got to be
the victims DNA all over him, and I guarantee these
items are going to be found in his closet at
(20:34):
his new apartment.
Speaker 8 (20:35):
I would certainly hope so, Nancy, because as we're looking
at what he's wearing, that would say a lot of
sorry is he's premeditation that he probably planned to have
everything that he needed in that bag, which will probably
tell us a lot about what he was planning when
they receive that backpack and the contents of that backpack,
And I would imagine with the parents and their instinct
(20:57):
to save and to protect the children, that they're DNA
that there's other evidence that would be on his clothing.
So to me, that would be really important that they
recover not only that backpack, but all of his clothing
that we see in this picture to be able to learn.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
A lot about this horrific crime and his violent behavior.
Crime Stories, with Nancy Grace Sidney Sumner joining me, Crime
Stories investigative reporter explain to us what we know right
(21:35):
now about the slaughter at Devil's Den? What do we
know happened? Pieced together by the nine one one calls
little girls running down the trail screaming what they reported?
How do we think the attacks went down Sydney Right.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
Well, we don't have any publicly released information on what
actually happened. We have been hearing these little snippets of
nine to one one dispatch radio and that's where we're
starting to piece together what happened. So apparently this family
is walking on the trail mom and dad two little girls,
and they are approached by Andrew apparently at this point,
(22:19):
and he starts to attack the parents, attacks dad, possibly
stab dad in the chest. While the two little girls
are still with their parents, Mom tells these two young girls,
they are just seven and nine years old, to run
as far and as fast as they can and try
and get help. So these girls take off, and what
(22:42):
they tell the nine to one one dispatcher is that
they ran until they couldn't hear their mom screaming anymore.
So they run into some adult on the trail, and
we think that they ran a very long distance, almost
a mile, until they ran into we're not sure, some
kind of an adult, maybe another family, a couple, and
(23:03):
someone escorted them to the visitor center, where an attendant
called nine one one, and at this point the attendant
just believed that maybe these children were just separated from
their family. It wasn't until the girls were put on
the phone directly with the nine one one dispatcher that
it was understood that their parents had actually been attacked.
(23:23):
So at this point that's when you hear Stage four
police two people have been attacked, possible stabbing, and officers
are now searching the trail for these injured people, and
what we know is that officers actually heard falls for
help before they made it out to Clinton and Kristen Brink,
(23:45):
So it was so sad that they were so close
to possibly have gotten these parents' medical attention that they needed,
but by the time they located Kristen and Clinton, they
were deceased.
Speaker 3 (23:57):
While first responders initially hear screen and calls for help,
by the time they reached the victims on the trail,
it's clear the victims are deceased. There's no sign of
their attacker. Officers quickly clear the trail, speaking with hikers
as they exit the park to piece together what happened.
Several hikers remember passing the family and many others on
the trail, but a few point out there was only
(24:20):
one person they saw alone on the trail that day,
a medium build, white man wearing dark clothes, a ball cap,
and sunglasses with dark blonde or light brown hair.
Speaker 13 (24:30):
What's supposed to be a memorable family hike ends in
a brutal tragedy when the bodies of a mom and
dad are suddenly discovered in an Arkansas state park with.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
Me an all star panel tomate any sense of what
we are learning right now. We do know that overnight
it was announced and arrest had been made. The so
called Devil's Den Hike trail killer was apprehended, according to police.
Carson Holiday joining us from son, Carson, I'm trying to
(25:02):
figure out how this guy was apprehended, what led to him.
I have a reason to believe it may have been
his vehicle, But Carson Holiday, you may have a different theory.
How was this guy identified?
Speaker 7 (25:15):
I believe it was the composite sketch. The composite sketch
was really right on, and he was wearing I mean,
obviously we have that picture from behind that I feel
like is very recognizable. That backpack is pretty unique. Again,
the balaklava sort of thing around his neck, and then
the hat, that all just seems very recognizable. I believe
(25:39):
someone saw him going in to get the haircut, which
is where he was arrested, and maybe called it in. Obviously,
we'll learn more as the police release more details.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
We're learning that police, well it's Arkansas State Police along
with the FBI, are crediting video tips. I don't really
know what that means, but video tips also to doctor
Michelle Dupree joining US renowned pathologist, medical examiner, and former detective.
(26:09):
When I hear people talk about balaklava, now I can't help.
I will forever think of Brian Coberger and it sounds
like this guy took a page out of Coburger's book.
Coburger dressed all in black, face, mask, gloves, The work
works just like this guy. What do you make of it?
(26:31):
Does that really protect you from DNA transfers?
Speaker 12 (26:34):
No, Nancy, it doesn't. I think that he was under
a misconception that it would. But there are still going
to be lots of trace evidence on hairs, fibers, soil,
things like that. It gives him a false sense of
security that he won't be identified, and it does make
it harder to identify, but there are still ways to
do that. And as we've seen here, there's a great
(26:54):
sketch of him.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
It really is, it really is. You know, that's hard
to do, doctor Michelle Dupre, You and I have worked
with a lot of composite sketches. It looks nothing like
the person, and the defense has a field day with
it at trial. I mean, I've seen some composite sketches
that didn't look at all like the But I had
a DNA match, so I know it's him. Long story short,
(27:18):
the defense gets a hold of that back and posit
and goes, look, that's not him, and that's not a
good look for the prosecution in this case. I think
you're absolutely right. I think it looks a lot like him.
But doctor Michelle Duprey, not only author and pathologist, also
former detective now Kerson Holiday thinks that it had to
(27:40):
do with other evidence. I think it had to do
the apprehending him had to do with this car because
you look and you see in the database who's there,
who's in the jurisdiction driving a black Mazda four door
with I don't know if the whole tag was covered up,
if partial tag was covered up. Look at this. This
is again from Adriana luis Avolos on Facebook. There it
(28:04):
is right there. Yep, it's a four door, just like
the witnesses said. And the car database is easy to find.
Now we know part of that tag was obscured with
duct tape. He planned a him. But even if you
get the outside of the tag, you can identify the
state and maybe more so, what do you think led
(28:26):
them to this guy apprehended, all kicked back getting his
hair done.
Speaker 12 (28:31):
Nancy, I think you're actually right. I think that someone
saw this car and probably saw it maybe being parked,
and saw this person going into the barbershop to get
a haircut, and then you match that up with the sketch,
and I think you've absolutely got it. You've got it
wrapped up.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
Hey, listen to this, doctor dupray.
Speaker 3 (28:49):
Several other hikers take notice of a man in dark
clothes on Devil's Done Trail one nine call, reporting he
appeared to have blood on him. While initial reports put
the sub inspecked in a black tank top, police revise
the description to a dark colored long sleeved shirt with
the sleeves rolled up. Some witnesses saw the man get
in a black four door sports car. Others report a
(29:12):
similar car driving erratically as it leaves the park area.
Their descriptions are vague, but all have two commonalities. It
was loud, and there was tape covering the license plate.
Police believe the vehicle may have been traveling on Arkansas
one seventy or Arkansas two twenty.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
I'm not saying Crosston Holidays wrong. She may very well
be right. She knows the facts like the back of
her hand. But doctor Dupray, it's coburger all over again.
Here you've got the guy in this case Devil's Den,
driving erratically and a really loud car that went out
on the airwaves Pronto describing him. They composite, but that
(29:52):
car it got on either Arkansas one seventy or two twenty.
They have cams, they have life subscrabbers, and if you're
driving erradically, people are going to notice, just like b K.
Brian Coberger's white Elantra was noticed. I mean, it's a
dead giveaway. What about that possibility, Doctor Dupree, Absolutely.
Speaker 12 (30:15):
Nancy that you're right, that is going to be noticed
by anybody that's in the vicinity. And if they call
that in and then again they do match it up
with the sketch. I think you're right. I think somebody
saw that car. I think somebody saw that being parked
near that barber shop. And I think that is how
they apprehended him right then, and they are.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
Ooh yes, by the barbershop. Brilliant and he was so arrogant,
this guy idiot. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, doctor Janey
(30:53):
Lacey and I say, idiot with full venom, have you
ever being minding your own business? I don't know if
you live in an apartment or a house or in
traffic and you hear and you know what is that
in some muscle car going by with a screwed up
muffler and everybody notices it. This guy like Coburger going
(31:18):
round and around and around the murder scene in his
white Alantra. Hello, we see you on ring cams. We
can see you. This guy drives off nine amph and thanks,
nobody will notice, and then parks in front of the salon.
Speaker 8 (31:34):
Well, Nancy, that says a lot about he thought his
self importance and him living in the little bubble and
not necessarily having self awareness. Right, So when we see
people who are arrogant personality disordered, have a lot of
history of just being self focused and their self importance
is so inflated that these are the types of people
(31:55):
that we will see that are not considered of other people.
And in this situation of him going to the barbershop
and him going going loudly at that is to say
that his self importance is over confidence and just really
thinking that he probably was going to get away with
this crime in this sense, especially when we look at
his self importance and his lack of self awareness.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
I'm so glad you said that doctor Janey. Andrew lewis
joining US veteran trial lawyer at Circe Law, but former
felony prosecutor. The more arrogant they are, the better it
is for the state, because they think that they're not
going to be noticed, and they're smarter than everybody in
the room. And in this case, it's little things, Andrew.
(32:40):
If Carson Holliday is right, and I think she is,
there's a good chance there's DNA and that there are
video tips. It's other little things. Did I ever tell
you about the bank robber I prosecuted gets a ton
of money out of what was then a c Ands bank,
and you know what got him a little thing. They
(33:02):
didn't even have video. They had steal photos of the purp,
but you could see he was slew footed, walk like
a duck, right, And of course he took the stand,
Thank you Heaven. He takes a stand and everybody hung
over the jury rail to watch him walk, and he
walked up just as slew footed as daffy duck. Okay,
(33:23):
So what I'm saying is little things like that car
pulling up and parking right there forgotten everybody to see
in front of the salon. You hear that, and of
course you look at it and you think, hey, that
looks like Demazda. Everybody's looking for Andrea. Idiot? How many
(33:44):
times can I say idiot in one segment? But what
about it, Andrea Lewis, You're one hundred percent right.
Speaker 10 (33:50):
You know, I think most people who maybe aren't in
the courtroom as much as prosecutors are, maybe some other lawyers,
don't realize how the defendant themselves can really just be
a treasure trove of information, not only in evidence before,
not only in just their statements potentially to police, but
(34:10):
as you noted, in.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
The courtroom their mannerisms.
Speaker 10 (34:13):
Because if they're arrogant outside the courtroom, imagine how they
act inside the courtroom and the jurors can pick up
on that and they want to, you know, wipe that
smile right off their face.
Speaker 1 (34:26):
And I think that's what's happened here. He just got you.
Speaker 10 (34:28):
Know, cocky, He thought he was untouchable. I totally agree
with you and the other guest. I think that we're
going to find here that there's DNA that got you
got his car. It sounds like you have multiple people
on the hiking trail. I would assume that it was
one of the adults that probably got a good look
at him. I remember there were some witness statements when
(34:49):
when the initial reports went out, who did that the
composite which is excellent, so they have a lot and
for all we know, he spoke to police, So I think,
think it'll just.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
Keep getting better. Gots something else for you. Andrea ron
Bateman was going to do a backflip. But before we
show him doing his backflip, did you know that Lupida's salon,
According to our very very extensive a Google map search,
Lupida's Salon is less than thirty minutes away from Devil's Den.
(35:22):
He didn't even leave the jurisdiction. He's that arrogant and
parks in the front of the salon where the whole
world is looking for his car.
Speaker 10 (35:34):
It really it defies common sense.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
And you brought up coburger.
Speaker 10 (35:39):
That was the first thing I thought about when we
started hearing these initial reports over the last couple of days,
because imagine a town like this, who everybody's on high alert.
I mean, people across the country are following this case.
Imagine what big news it is locally there. So everybody
in a four door sedan, you know, is getting stared
(36:01):
at when they go to traffic lights and as they
drive around, they're on high alert. The town's on hilert.
So for this man to.
Speaker 1 (36:10):
Just be so stupid that he would.
Speaker 10 (36:12):
Stick around not think that anyone would notice him. He's
sort of a strange looking guy to begin with. I mean,
he stands out is just foolish and fortunately for the family,
he was caught and hopefully will spend the rest of
his life in prison or get the death penalty.
Speaker 1 (36:31):
Overnight, a presser announcing the arrest of the alleged double
killer snared in the Devil's Den hiking trail murders to
Ron Bateman, joining US Farmer Sheriff and Arundel County, Maryland,
who has investigated multiple cases very similar to this. If
you look at this guy, Okay, he moves to town
(36:54):
to another state after resigning from his last elementary school position,
where he was quote so close to the students. He
comes here, apparently doesn't know anybody, takes an out of
state job, lives all alone, reportedly having left that job
(37:18):
after claims he had an inappropriate contact. I don't know
what that means. That can mean calling children on the phone,
It can mean texting them, it can mean a lot more.
We don't know that yet. But then would he leap
from that to trying to publicly nab a little girl
(37:41):
on a hiking trail? No wonder the mom and dad
fought to the death.
Speaker 4 (37:46):
Okay, So I made another observation of that backpack contraption
that he has he's wearing. First off, that gym bag
is attached to a backpack apparatus, and that backpack apparatus
has what looks to me to be a camelback apparatus
to it, which means it has water in it and
it comes around. So to me, that looks like the
(38:09):
moron who's wearing long sleeve black shirt and black pants
and a hat in ninety five degree weather is and
for the long run because of hydration. This gives him
hydration to stay out there. So that looks like a
camel backpack to me, with an attachment of a gym
bag to it. So who knows what the heck is
in that drim gym bag. I'd love to see the tape,
(38:31):
the rope, the knives or whatever's in there.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
Would he be that brazen ron?
Speaker 4 (38:36):
Yeah? Well, I mean he's not that smart.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
To try and nab a little girl in front of
her parents. Well, I mean, for all I know, like
in Rachel Mooren's case, that perp waited until nobody else
was around, and Rachel was at a curve, remember a
curve where people behind couldn't see exactly what was happening ahead,
(39:01):
and he dragged her off the trail, her mother of five.
For all I know, the little girls were running ahead
of mom and dad, which happens frequently, and he saw
them and didn't see mom and dad and tried to
grab one and the girl's screen. I wonder if that's
how this whole thing is going to play out.
Speaker 2 (39:20):
Run.
Speaker 4 (39:20):
Yeah, you know what, he probably had tunnel vision. Your parent.
I'm a parent. You know when the kids are little,
you know, they don't want to stick by mom and
dad's side. They're running ahead, or they're hanging behind, they're
playing on logs or doing what have you, exploring the woods,
And that could have very well happened and been slightly
out of sight of mom and dad. But this guy
had tunnel vision. He knew what he was going after,
(39:41):
probably one of those two little girls or both, and
just was oblivious to mom and Dad's presence.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
You know, Carson Holliday joining us from the US son.
I'm just we're analyzing how is he tracked, how is
he caught? Was their DNA? Did the hair have mitochondrial
dnan on? But what it boils down to is this
mom and dad gave their lives trying to protect the
little girls. That's the first words we were hearing. They
died trying to protect the girls. And I spun that
(40:10):
out and try to figure out what does that mean. Okay,
these two little girls, and I think they've got a
third sister, will spend the rest of their lives without
mom and dad and there's no replacement for that. And
not only that, the survivor guilt. They died trying to
(40:30):
save me. I mean, that's what this is all about.
And stabbing death is a brutal way to die. It's
not like you die in your sleep, or you breathe
in carbon monoxide you don't even know what's happening, or
you take too many pills and you just drift off
to sleep. No, it's it's a horrible way to die.
(40:55):
And if the police are right, Arkansas State Police, this
guy did it. I bet you anything, Carson. He didn't
go from zero to one hundred mph in one afternoon, right,
there's got to be a trail behind him. But what
happens now? Where is he and what's next?
Speaker 7 (41:14):
Well, he was booked into jail last night. We obviously
saw that terrifying mugshot, and police said that he could
appear in court for his arraignment as soon as tomorrow morning.
So we'll really be checking back in and seeing, you know,
how he appears in court, what jail is going to
(41:35):
look like for him. I really can't imagine that it
would be a great experience for him.
Speaker 1 (41:39):
There.
Speaker 7 (41:40):
You know, he just ripped two parents away from their
young daughters, and like you said, the young daughters, I mean,
the survivor's gil is just going to be awful, especially
considering that the mom told the little girls to run
and get help, and that they were screaming for help
up until they came along.
Speaker 12 (41:59):
To their body.
Speaker 7 (42:00):
I mean, it's just horrific.
Speaker 1 (42:02):
Mom and dad had just moved to this jurisdiction, Dad
starting a brand new job. I think it would have
been yesterday delivering milk mom a nurse. Well, we know
what's going to happen, Andrea. He is going to have
a first appearance, which under the law, if you are
(42:24):
behind mars, you have to be brought into a court,
whether it's a magistrate, a superior court judge, a state
court judge, and you have to be told why you're
being charged in open court, no secret proceedings. That's going
to happen. Then there'll probably be a grand jury indictment
on two capital murder cases. This is a death penalty jurisdiction.
(42:46):
Then he'll probably be assigned a public defender with death
penalty experience. I mean, this is more than one body
that equals mass murder under the law. That's what's going
to spin out. Then we're going to spend millions of
dollars while he sits behind bars. I believe it's Washington
County jail with people rallying to his aid, women falling
(43:10):
in love with him and sending him love letters and
special meals, all sorts of things like ahead for him.
We wait as justice and folds, and we will be
in court for that arrangement. Nancy Grace signing off goodbye friend,
Host
Nancy Grace
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