August 4, 2025 • 46 mins
Parents of Andrew McGann's students at schools in Oklahoma and Texas say the 28-year-old suspect was a "sick pervert" and his "behavior was unusual."
There were girls McGann would "tickle" at Donald Elementary School in Flower Mound, Texas. McGann would invite special girls to have lunch in his classroom while other students ate in the cafeteria. One student says McGann told her "he wished she could be his girlfriend."
Parents reported McGann's behavior to Lewisville ISD and Donald Elementary staff. but "everything got swept under the rug."
Parents complaints led to McGann being placed on administrative leave before his resignation letter.
Parent Lindsay Polyak suggests if McGann had been terminated instead of beingt able o resign, the termination would have been on his record and might have raised some red flags for other teaching jobs.
However, since he was allowed to resign, he was hired by at least two other school districts and was getting ready to start the new school year in Arkansas.
McGann taught at Sand Springs until May of this year. Former student Shaelynn Brown says the black backpack shown in a picture was the same bag McGann had while he taught at Sand Springs.
McGann began teaching in the 2022-2023 school year at Donald Elementary School in the Lewisville, Texas, Independent School District. The next school year, 23-24, he taught at Spring Creek Elementary with the Broken Arrow Public Schools, and then for the last school year, fall 24 to spring 25, he taught 5th grade at Spring Creek Elementary in the Sand Springs school district.
For the upcoming school year, he moved schools again, this time to Arkansas, where he was preparing to begin his school year.
Joining Nancy Grace today:
- Danikka Harrell - Friend of Cristen and Clinton
- Mircha King - Attorney, and City Attorney for Altheimer, Arkansas; Instagram: @mirchac.king
- Dr. Janie Lacy - Licensed Psychotherapist and CEO of Life Counseling Solutions, Author of "How To Heal From A Toxic Relationship: A Guide To Reclaiming Your Mental Health and Happiness," and Host of “The Resilient Professional” Podcast on YouTube; Instagram & Facebook: @JanieLacy
- Tom Green - Former Chief Deputy at Washoe County Sheriff’s Office; Homicide Detective & Cold Case Squad Burglary/Fraud Detective (high-tech surveillance & covert surveillance.); Current Private Investigator and Owner: Nevada Investigative Services LLC,
- Dr. Kendall Crowns - Chief Medical Examiner Tarrant County (Ft Worth), NEW Podcast --- launching on April 7th, Lecturer: Burnett School of Medicine at TCU (Texas Christian University)
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
The Devil's Den killer suspect can't stop tickling little girls.
According to disturbed parents at schools where he wants worked
tonight where you're learning, he was bounced.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
From school to school to school.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Because of inappropriate behavior with little girls, but no one
ever fired him. That's how he ended up at the
murder scene. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I
want to thank you for being with us. Devil's Den
killer snared a white.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
Mail suspect wearing black clothes.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
That's think it's going to be a white male, a
white male teacher wearing.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
White gloves and rites in the dark colored pans, sunglasses,
dark colored pants and a dark colored cane top.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
I don't care what any defense attorney wants to tell you.
And we have video of him in the last hours
in work with his brand new defense attorney. This guy
was not insane when he allegedly stabbed a mom and
dad dad on a family hiking trail as they tried
to protect their two little girls from what and here
(01:15):
he is and here is where it all started.
Speaker 4 (01:17):
A medic for circular first responders sat Triflle. That's all
possible stabbing Devilston Say heart Brushing County received a call
from the visitor center to children are their They advised
that their parents were.
Speaker 5 (01:32):
Assaulted one was possibly stabbed. The parents are missing.
Speaker 6 (01:38):
You guys, has just security Debbleston, You're still round. Attacked
the mail and a female on Devilston Hiking trail and
then took off in a small black sports car with
tap Hofuly and we suspect the suspect of injuries due
to the witness seeing the suspect stab one of them.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Little did these ladies know they were inches away from
an alleged double chill.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Let's take a look at the video.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Notice that this guy in front of guy and everybody
just parks in the very front parking spot with the
vehicle everyone's looking for, which later was determined full of evidence,
including blood from the victims. He saunters up the front steps.
He's not even a little bit concerned. Again, this is
from Lupido's beauty salon, walking in. Notice how he keeps
(02:25):
his face down. We've heard that from the ladies in
the salon. They have repeatedly stated that, and as we
discussed last week, he is in to get all that
haircut off the back of his head. Gee, I wonder
why did it have anything to do with the fact
that he was pictured from behind with his hair coming
(02:45):
out from under his baseball cap. This is the photo
we're talking about. Now, let's go back to the Lupida
salon video. As he is in the salon, law enforcement
swarms the place.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Oh here he is sautry in and that reminds me.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Check out those shoes. Are those the shoes he wore
during the double murder. In a moment, I'm going to
circle back to Tom Green, former Washoe County Sheriff's office,
about potential evidence off the bottom of those shoes. Is
their blood on them? Is their soil from the scene?
(03:22):
You can never have enough evidence. And now I'm hearing
in my ear we have the video.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Of the arrest.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Let's say l e as they come in there, they
are plain clothes, all armed. The lady's scattering as they should.
He still has his salon cape on, and you see
his hair is getting buzzed up the back so he
won't look anything like he did on that photo.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
And there he goes with no resistance.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
Again, that is from surveillance video from Lupita's salon. Yeah,
you better run, lady. She did the right thing. There
you see undercover armed three of them and more out
in the parking lot, arresting the alleged Devil's Den double
killer Andrew James McCann and what we have learned about him.
(04:16):
We'll circle back to the video and what we're learning
from it a lot, but straight out. Joining us at
the scene, Nanette Sosa. She has been coming Devil's Dan
Park formerly k n WA in Arkansas. Nanette, thank you
for being with us. What have you learned or today?
Speaker 7 (04:36):
Everybody here at the salon is still nervous. They cannot
believe what's happened, and they too, are trying to put
together the pieces of why was their salon picked. A
white guy walks into a mostly Hispanic here salon. He's
not a regular customer. The salon's been here for decades.
Speaker 8 (04:56):
Family.
Speaker 7 (04:56):
Oh, they know their clientele, and here he just comes in,
does not even make eye contact, does not want to
sign in. They're worried already and they didn't even know
about him.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Hey, Sidney Sunder joining me in addition to Annette Sosa
Inett joining us from the scene. Sidney Sumner Crime Stories
investigative reporter, Sydney.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
I've learned that he tried.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
For two days to get a haircut, to go to
a salm, but he wouldn't sign in, he wouldn't give
his name, so he.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
Could never get in.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
Finally he gets to Lupita's and they take walkins. That's
how it happened, and it makes me wonder why he
was so obsessed with getting his hair done. Guys, I
haven't even gotten to what we have learned from previous
school districts where this guy was bounced from place to
place to place, tickling little girls uncontrollably take it having
them at private lunches a lot. But I want to
(05:51):
get back to Sidney, Sumner and Net Sydney. For two days,
this guy tried to get a haircut, that's what he's
thinking about after stabbing a mom and dad.
Speaker 9 (05:59):
Dan Well, I think it's very clearly an attempt to
change his appearance. He knew that cops were zeroing in
on his image and he needed to change his hair,
maybe his clothing, maybe something about his face. He had
cuts on his hands, for goodness sake. It was very
(06:21):
clear that if anybody took more than two glances at
him in public, they might question whether out that everyone.
Speaker 5 (06:30):
Is looking for.
Speaker 9 (06:31):
So clearly he was just trying to change his appearance.
That's why he was so desperate for this haircut.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
I think that's an answer, and so joining us formerly
KNWA in Arkansas, net. He was trying desperately to change
his appearance. And you know what is really scary. If
anything had gone sideways, he would have killed those ladies
if they had said.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Hey, you look like the Devil's Den guy.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
I guarantee you there would have been violence at Lupeda salon.
Speaker 7 (07:00):
Absolutely, and you don't know what weapons you have. We
knew about the stabbing, not to say he doesn't have
other weapons, but coming in not making eye contact, everybody
is friendly at this salon you might talk with. Everything
was going well and then this man skulks in looking down,
doesn't want to sign in and needs a haircut. And
(07:20):
he only lives but seven miles from this salon. So
whether he had scouted the area, looked around, he sat
in his car for a few minutes once he did
pull into this front parking lot right behind me, So
it was thought out he had some thoughts about that haircut.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
You know, it's really interesting.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
I'm going to throw this to Tom Green, joining us
former chief Deputy Washoe County Sheriff's off as homicide detective,
and so much more now PI, owner of Nevada Investigative Services.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Tom, thanks for being with us. You know what, have
you noticed.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
That so many killers, well purps in general, violent purps.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
That I've come in contact with anyway, they.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Pick out those that are weaker or less cunning than them,
for instance. And I'm about to get into it, but
I've got to show you in a moment the court
video that we have obtained of him and his first appearance.
But Tom Green, before I get to that, they pick
out targets weaker or less cunning than them. Think about
all the little girls he was teaching in third, fourth
(08:19):
fifth grade, tickling them uncontrollably. He can't, he can't stop.
Then picking out an unarmed mom and dad on a
hiking trail when he has a knife, and there have
been reports that it's similar to a Brian Coberger knife.
We don't know that yet, but we're trying to find
that out.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
He picks on an unarmed mom and dad.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
Then he goes into Lupita's hair, salon where there are
just a couple of ladies in there at that time
of the day. One of them has on bedroom shoes.
You know that you'd walk around inside on a lot
of people take off their regular shoes and they walk
around in socks or.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
Slip ons inside.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
My point is ladies, defenseless ladies. That's who he encounters.
Somebody that is unarmed, somebody that cannot defend themselves, someone
that is unaware, unsuspecting. He is a hyena, he is
a wolf, Tom Green looking for the weakest prey.
Speaker 10 (09:23):
Well, I don't disagree, and we know that wolves and
other predators look for what they think they can take.
They don't look for things they think they can't take,
and this verywell could be that situation. I mean, the
way he was dressed in that photo doesn't look like
you're out for a hike in eighty five degree weather
with eighty five percent humanity.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Guys, we've obtained the court video. Under our constitution, everyone
being held behind bars, particularly with Nobel, has a right
within seventy two hours to go in front of a
judge and magistrate and be told what they're charged with.
Let's take a look at this guy. The alleged Devil's
Den double kill or in court.
Speaker 8 (10:01):
And you are Andrew James P.
Speaker 7 (10:05):
Yes, you're in talking today's for for your first appearance.
Speaker 11 (10:08):
And parts are will be fed wood up to charges
property you have Roland just said it no lawn right now.
With your next court appearance for August fifth this year
at seven forty five am, that's going to be your
writing agents active attention center. There's been a finding me
that probably will cause you this attain that they might
(10:30):
have judged previously.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
Let's take a look at that from the beginning. Let's
roll that one more time. We've transcribed it for you
so you can make out every word that stated in court.
Please roll it and you are Andrew James P.
Speaker 11 (10:44):
Yes, you're in talking today's for for your first appearance
and purples are will be fus woe up to charges
property you know having working for the voland is set
at no lawn right now. With your next court appearance
for audi think of this year at seven forty five am,
that's going to be your undy.
Speaker 7 (11:04):
Gat actor and attention center.
Speaker 11 (11:07):
There's been in finding me that probable causes distentitaina was
made might judge previously.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
I's around friends at Fox for Dallas, and I noticed
on the camera straight out to Tom Green joining us
former Chief Deputy Washoe County, that there were from what
I could tell, nine guards positioned around the courtroom. This
guy McGann was very close to the judge, very close
(11:36):
to the judge. Most of the guards that I could
see were armed, and I imagine they all were, some
in uniform, some in playing clothes.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
So nobody knows what this guy is going to do.
Speaker 10 (11:48):
Yeah, well, you know, a courthouse security is imperative, especially
that you know clearly it's a small courtroom. He's charged
with serious offenses. There's a lot of public interests. You
don't know what family members are are out there or
that that didn't want to, you know, potentially lash out
towards him, understandably. So, yeah, courtroom security is going to
be significant through this empire. Every court appearance he has
(12:11):
is going to be met with heavy presence of courts security,
both inside and outside.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
I'm not really worry Tom about family members attacking him.
I'm worried about him attacking someone in the courtroom. Did
you see how close he was to the judge?
Speaker 10 (12:26):
Absolutely, And as you know, if if we you know
if this ends up in a jury trial situation, you
know he has to he has to have the perception
of being out of custody, meaning no restraints at least
in this Uh, you know he's going to have restraints.
Speaker 9 (12:40):
This is what we know.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
He will have his formal arraignment within days.
Speaker 5 (12:45):
What is that?
Speaker 2 (12:47):
That means he will either have a preliminary hearing, which
I doubt. That is when the state calls enough witnesses
to show probable cause to have him bound over or
sent to the correct court, which would be superior court
where felonies are tried, or there will be.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
A secret grand jury. What is a grand jury?
Speaker 2 (13:07):
Those are voters from this jurisdiction that will likely hear
just one witness, typically the lead detective in the case,
who will summarize the evidence against the defendant. This is
not a guilt phase, guilt or innocence phase. This is
asking a grand jury simply is there enough evidence in
your mind to take this case to trial? They will
(13:30):
more likely than not render a true bill of indictment
and the case will then be assigned to a trial judge.
At that point, this guy, the alleged Devil's Den double killer,
will go to that courtroom. There he is where there's
a new haircut covering his face. He will go to
(13:50):
that courtroom and be arraigned where he will be formally
read his capital murder charges.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Alleged double killer took off.
Speaker 6 (14:00):
On a small black sports car with taper for the
police and we suspect the suspect of injuries.
Speaker 3 (14:06):
Car.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
Oh, dear Lord in heaven. There he is, and it
looks just like the composite sketch.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
In the last hours, we have obtained what is called
the intake surveillance of the alleged Devilstein killer.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
Let's take a look at that now here we see him.
This is an aerial view.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
I'm just curious. Are these the same shoes he wore
at the double murders? Please hold onto those shoes for
Pete's sake. You are taking a look at video surveillance
inside the jail where he is having as we call it, intake.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
Tom Green explain what is intake?
Speaker 5 (14:48):
Well, intake is going to.
Speaker 10 (14:49):
Be the process that they're going to They're going to
take his mug shot, they're going to take some fingerprints.
But before all that occurs, they are going to make
sure he doesn't have any weapons on him, any or
any items of evidence obvious. Now, in cases such as this,
it would be common for the detectives, I know, we
would have to take every item of clothing, underwear, socks,
all of it and book that into evidence and have
(15:11):
that forensically examined. But yeah, that is the process of intake,
is to make sure he doesn't have any any weapons
on him, to completely search him and get those identifiers
from him. They're asking biological information and where do you live,
where your parents next to? In these kinds of.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
Things, notice that every single person around him is armed
and they better be. Now we're tasked with finding out
what led to his arrest and what clues, if any,
are left behind. But first I'm going to go straight
back out to Nanette Sosa joining us. They're at Lupido's salon,
(15:46):
who graciously has allowed us to use all of their
surveillance of video.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
Nanette, what have you learned there at the salon?
Speaker 8 (15:53):
Brad learned? This salon is so busy, For example, thirteen
hairstylists on hand weekends. It's busy. It was just clearing
out that particular night where he where he entered. However,
this place is busy They are scared. All of them
are scared knowing that he was in this shop. Why
(16:14):
are they were here or not? They are scared.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
You know another interesting thing and I want to go
out to our guest, doctor Janey Lacey, and guys. This
video is from our friends at Lupitea's Beauty Salon. Psychotherapist
and CEO of Life Counseling Solutions, Doctor Janie, thank you
for being with us. And many people, including myself, are
struck by his demeanor. He seems so calm. Of course,
(16:39):
it's one thing when you're uncontrollably tickling little girls on
the playground and you can't seem to stop yourself, or
you're having private lunches with the little girls without their
parents knowing about it, or you're attacking two unarmed parents
on a family hiking trail. That's an entirely different scenario
(17:00):
than being in court surrounded by nine armed guards. But
his demeanor, even in luped Salon, he's looking down. He
seems very quiet and self contained. How do you reconcile
the two the demon that appeared at Devil's Dan hiking
trail and this guy.
Speaker 12 (17:20):
Well, the way that we reconcile that Nancy is that
they learn to compartmentalize and they learn to operate in
little boxes. So when we see him in this clip,
there's not eye contact and there's probably very little communication
so that he doesn't have to connect with the person
who he's actually discussed talking to. So they stay disassociated,
(17:41):
they stay not connected, and they don't less necessarily because
you're looking at eye contact and you're engaging in conversation,
you're connecting with the person. So this would tell me
that he's learned to compartmentalize, he does not connect, and
that he keeps himself very guarded so that people can't
necessarily read him, or so he thinks, how was this
guy apprehended?
Speaker 13 (18:01):
Listen, the Brink children and another witness on the trail
helped create a sketch of the suspect. Other visitors to
the park were able to provide photos to investigators, helping
with the description of the vehicle, a black forty sedan.
Up to ten videos from homes and businesses along routes
in and out of the park, providing a good description
of the vehicle.
Speaker 14 (18:22):
With that vehicle information that became critical in identifying our suspects.
So with the photos or the tips that came in
with the composite and the photo. As the colonel said,
we received over five hundred tips. As we began to
hone in on the vehicle, it became clear that it
(18:42):
was a Kia Stinger, and we used that information to
vet various owners and our suspect was identified.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
This for our friends at KOTV Sidney Summer joining US
Crime Stories investigative Reporter Sidney, we are now hearing reports
to the little girls.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
The two little daughters.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
Seven and nine didn't run all the way down the trail,
as we were first told that they were afraid and
found all alone crying on the trail.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
And someone brought them down. This is after mom.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Tells them to keep running and circles back to try
and defend her husband from the killer.
Speaker 9 (19:25):
What do we know, Well, as you said, we know
that the girls were found on the trail and someone
took them into the visitor center. And at this point
it's still somewhat unclear if the person that grabbed the
girls and took them to the visitor center knew that
their parents were attacked or simply thought that these little
(19:47):
girls were separated from their parents and needed help finding them.
So in the visitor center is when these girls were
eventually put on the phone directly with the nine one
one operator in the full story started to come to
fruition and police officers and EMTs were staged at the scene.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
The arrogance of this guy leaving his car parked right
in front of Lupita Salon. When we're doing a manhunt
trying to find this guy based on what they learned
from witnesses at the scene, a search warrant was executed.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
Listen, we executed a.
Speaker 4 (20:25):
Search warrant as residents.
Speaker 10 (20:28):
There were articles found there that are consistent with being
involved in this particular crime.
Speaker 13 (20:35):
McGann taught at Sand Springs until May of this year.
Former student Shalen Brown says the black backpack shown in
a picture was the same bag McGann had while he
taught at Sand Springs.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
Yes, Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
On the return from that search warrant. What is a
return When a search warrant is executed, everything that is
taken from the home is written down on a return.
That's where our friend's a KOTV. What was on that
return waiting to find out, but we do know the
backpack was identified by children at a previous school. There's
(21:22):
not only the car, but I want to point out
what was found in the car itself. There's the backpack
that was identified by previous students and that's so joining
us there at Lupita Salon and barbershott and that what
was what do we know that was found in the car?
Speaker 8 (21:38):
Alerties here did find blood traces of blood within the car.
That is do the probable cause that was released Other
than that, as far as he was concerned, he was
sitting in that barber chair. His hands had cut slices
on them as well, so they saw that and asked
them to it up from the chair and they faced
(22:01):
handcuffs on him. And he was in the middle of
the on the haircut when still had the barber tape
on when the handcuffed him. But it was definitely blood
that was found on the inside of the car, the Kiya,
which was parked here in the front of Mifita's Beauty salon.
Speaker 13 (22:17):
Arkansas State Police interview a witness who saw someone with
blood on his face get into a black sedan and
drive onto State Highway one seventy. A second witness says
the car is a Kia stinger. This became extremely important
as investigators put out a sketch of the suspect and
type of vehicle and asked the public for help. Law
enforcement received multiple videos from homes and businesses showing the
(22:41):
black stinger.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
This man is obviously twisted. He gave her a bad feeling.
He put off a bad vibe. Something is wrong with him.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
Hikers on that trail that came in contact with McGann,
the alleged Devil's Double killer, said he gave a bad
vibe for many different reasons. And in our business, you
don't discount that. You don't discount a hunch.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
And they were right. They were the only ones that
got a bad vibe off the sky.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
Why did he bounce from school to school, to school
to school before he landed here at Devil's Den?
Speaker 1 (23:22):
Well listen.
Speaker 15 (23:23):
Parents of mcghann's students at schools in Oklahoma and Texas
say the twenty eight year old suspect was a sick
pervert and his behavior was unusual. There were girls McGahn
would tickle at Donald Elementary School in Flower Mountain, Texas.
McGahn would invite special girls to have lunch in his
classroom while other students ate in the cafeteria. Parents report
McGann's behavior to Lewisville isasde and Donald Elementary staff. But
(23:47):
everything got swept under the rug.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
I really don't even know what to say about that quote,
swept under the rug. And this is according to parents
of students. And it wasn't just that school. He went
from that school to another to another. I wonder who
was the special girl that got to have lunch, a
private lunch in his classroom while the others ate in
the cafeteria.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
And I'd like to know what was said at those
private lunches.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
I know, straight out to Sydney Sumner joining us from
crime stories that he told one little girl, I wish
you could be my girlfriend. Oh honey, fur would fly
if somebody, a male teacher told that to one of
my children, I wish you could be my girlfriend or boyfriend.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
What happened, Sidney Sumner? And why was he never reprimanded?
He just went from school to school to school.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
Didn't nobody have the backbone to file an actual complaint
where they that afraid they'd get sued.
Speaker 9 (24:43):
It's very unclear why this elementary school teacher, who apparently
never met expectations and had this history of inappropriate behavior
with female students, was allowed to just move on from
the his job and start somewhere else. Parents were apparently
(25:04):
very upset that McGann was able to resign and just
move to a new school district and didn't face any
kind of consequences for his actions. Now that school district
said they didn't find any evidence that he really was
acting inappropriately with female students, but he did not meet
their expectation and was allowed to resign instead of being fired.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
Whoa, whoa, whoa.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
Woa, Sidney, I'm not going to kill the messenger, but
I find it highly inappropriate to uncontrollably like you can't
stop himself from tickling little girls. According to reports joining
me doctor Jane Lacy, what is nismophilia.
Speaker 12 (25:45):
Well, misopelia is basically a tickling fetish nancy. So most
of the time people are using it, especially predators, because
there is some typo sexual pleasure that they'll get from
the actual tickling or being tickling, and there's usually a
power dynamic that occurs and what we'll see nancy with predators.
It becomes almost socially acceptable because tickling appears harmless to
(26:07):
most observers, and this sensitation process gradually normalizes.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
Okay, rewind, rewind, Okay, you got to start at the beginning.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
Miss Mophelia is a sex fetish where you like to
tickle people, whether they want to be tickled or not,
to where the victim is. They're not laughing, they're crying.
They don't like it, but you keep doing it, and
you can't stop yourself. Could you it's a power dynamic.
(26:41):
Could you start that over again? It was you got
me drinking from the fire hydrant, Doctor Jenney. Too much
information at once. Just slow it down for me. I'm
just a trial while you go ahead.
Speaker 12 (26:51):
So when we consider missul Flemia, it's also considered a
tickling fetish. And what we'll see, Nancy, with the tickling
fetish is that there's pleasure that's derived from tickling or
being tickled, and we'll see that there's usually like a
dominant submission dynamics, a power dynamic at play. So when
it comes to our suspect and the power dynamic of
(27:14):
him being a teacher and him tickling his students, we'll
see it happen with predators because tickling usually appears harmless
to observers right, it becomes socially acceptable touch. And what
we'll also see is this desensitation process that occurs nance
because what happens is they gradually normalize inappropriate physical contact
(27:37):
and they also can build trust. They're using playful interactions
to gain a child comfort. And what will also see
is a lot of testing of boundaries happen. They're assessing
the child's vulnerability and also the adult supervision around. So
predators will also will look at this isolation indicators what
we call it, where they'll determine if adults will actually intervene.
(27:59):
So when we see a lot of these warning signs
that have been reported, he had excessive physical contact with
the children, and he was targeting specific genders, the young girls,
and he created these special relationships.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
With these students.
Speaker 12 (28:11):
And the boundary violations and professional settings that was reported
that some of the parents recognize as actually a grooming behavior.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
You know what this is telling me to Tom Green,
former Chief Deputy Washoe County Sheriffs, You're hearing what doctor
Janey Lacey is saying, and to me, this is giving
credence to the theory that McGann tried to grab one
of the little girls or both ages seven and nine
(28:43):
typically one to either molest them or something else like
the tickling, to feed his own sexual fetish, and the
parents stopped him.
Speaker 10 (28:56):
That's absolutely rational theory. And we can't forget me and
see the nine year old the same age as the
children that's going to be in the class he was
about start teaching, and what a week and days out?
Speaker 5 (29:09):
What if ses Tom?
Speaker 1 (29:11):
Tom?
Speaker 2 (29:12):
That's important? Well, that's important. I want to follow up
with that, doctor Janey Lacey. That's important because purps, especially molesters,
typically have an age and a sex and a type.
Here's an example, not exactly on point, but look at
Ted Bundy. If you look at his victims, so many
(29:33):
of them look the same for a long period of
time until he got completely out of control and would
just basically attack anybody that he could get close to.
But at the beginning, he would pick out one woman
after the next. As I recall seeing their pictures side
by side, all thin white females, dark hair similar facially,
(29:54):
hair parted down the middle. As I'm just recalling them
off the top of my head, that was his uh,
preferred victim, whether consciously or subconsciously. And Tom Green pointed
out the girls that age are the same girls as
these victims, particularly the nine year old.
Speaker 12 (30:10):
Well, he said it, Nancy, that he targeted his preference,
and he showed excessive favoritism towards this particular age range.
And also he had access to them because this was
the age range of what he was teaching. So it's
by no accident in my opinion, that he particularly targeted
this family that had these young girls because they were
(30:30):
part of his target that we have now have described
by a lot of different people on through.
Speaker 9 (30:35):
His history.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
Crime stories with Nancy Grace joining us now is a
very special guest. It's Danica Harold. She has a longtime
friend of the murdered mom and dad stabbed dead on
a public hiking trail, four families trying to protect their daughters.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
Miss Harrol, thank you for being with us. Thank you.
When did you learn that your friends had passed away?
Were killed?
Speaker 5 (31:12):
About midnight between Saturday and Sunday.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
How did you find out the news?
Speaker 5 (31:18):
Someone sent me a news article and I actually thought
it was a hoax, so I started researching it.
Speaker 1 (31:25):
Now you've known them for a long time.
Speaker 5 (31:28):
Yees, since twenty sixteen.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
What was your reaction when you discovered they hadn't just
passed on that they had actually been stabbed dead.
Speaker 5 (31:35):
It was very it was very hard to learn that information.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
Could you tell us, miss Harold, about the two of them?
We keep hearing that they were murdered trying to protect
their daughters. That the mom helped her two little girls
get away from the killer, and then after they were
safe in her mind, she went back to help fight
(32:02):
the killer off her husband, and in so doing she
herself was murdered trying to defend him.
Speaker 1 (32:09):
Does that sound like her?
Speaker 5 (32:11):
One hundred percent? They were all about their family.
Speaker 2 (32:14):
Tell us what you can't about them because they have
turned into props for the killer.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
We just hear they were stabbed. What can you tell
us about them? How did you meet? Describe them for us?
Speaker 5 (32:29):
Actually met them? They joined my co ed volleyball league,
and she would bring her daughters with volleyball, and it
turns out we had, you know, two daughters that were
the same age. So then that in turn led to
us hanging out outside of volleyball, and she was just
as sweet as could be. I ran into some issues
(32:50):
with childcare, and she offered to take my daughter overnight
while I worked out of town, didn't even bat an eyelash,
and you know, she had to keep her Christmas one year,
and she went as far as to make sure that
my daughter had the same matching pajamas as her kids.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
So you became very close we did.
Speaker 5 (33:09):
She lived, She's probably about half miles from my house,
and I'd go on walks and we'd stop at her
house and we'd just sit down and visit and she'd
make some coffee or tea, and our daughters would play outside.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
To Mercia King, veteran trial lawyer and joining us Merscha again,
thank you for being with us. Any kind of a
sexual perversion or sex fetish does not rise to insanity.
And noting how he was dressed, how he obscured his
tag license number, how he screeched out of there at
(33:43):
a high rate of speed, all of that indicates pre
planning and guilty conscience upon flight. So even if he
has a sex fetish with tickling little girls, that doesn't
ride to insanity, does it.
Speaker 16 (33:58):
He did have some knowledge about what he was doing
and that what he was doing was actually wrong, So
when you get to an insanity defense, that's something that
his lawyers are going to have to really really flesh
out to the jury for the jury to buy that
type of defense. But as you stated him fleeing, getting
(34:21):
the haircut, all of those things go to show his
state of mind and that he knew whatever that he
had done or whatever it happened was wrong, it was unlawful.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
This guy bounced between four districts in three states.
Speaker 1 (34:38):
Listen.
Speaker 15 (34:38):
Baron's complaints lead to him placed on administrative leave before
his resignation letter. Parent Lindsay Polyak suggest if McGann had
been terminated instead of allowing him to resign, determination would
have been on his record and might have raised some
red flags for other teaching jobs. But since he was
allowed to resign, he was hired by at least two
other school districts and was getting ready to start the
(35:00):
new school. You're in Arkansas.
Speaker 2 (35:02):
Joining us now is doctor Kendall Crown's chief medical examiner
Terrant County. That's Fort Worth and start of a brand
new podcast, Mayhem and the Morgue Esteemed a lecturer at
the Burnett School of Medicine at TCU. Doctor Crowns, thank
you for being with us. We know that he the
alleged killer. The suspect McGann was spotted by witnesses with
(35:23):
blood on his face. We know blood was found in
the car. We have been told the victims were stabbed.
What can you tell us about cod cause of death?
We know the mom went back to try to protect Clint,
the husband. What would you expect to find on the victims' bodies.
Speaker 17 (35:43):
There'd probably be multiple stab wounds on varying locations. Usually
with stab wounds, there isn't just one. It's usually several,
usually greater than ten. They'll probably be defense wounds, injuries
on the hands or the forearms as the individual's to
stop being stabbed and is grabbing at the knife, things
(36:03):
of that nature. Probably the majority of the wounds will
be in the neck, chest and back area on each victim.
Speaker 1 (36:10):
When you say.
Speaker 2 (36:11):
Defensive wounds, doctor Kennel Crowns can defensive wounds not only
be on the palms of the hands between the fingers
trying to ward off.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
The pert from stabbing, but also.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
On the exterior of the arms when they hold their
arms up like this, even on their back and on
their legs. When victims curl up in a fetal position,
maybe even here on their upper arms they try to
protect their face or their eternal organs. Where else would
you expect to find defensive wounds on the victims?
Speaker 17 (36:46):
That would be the majority of them is on the hands, forearms,
even the backs of the arms, and occasionally, when they
are down, they'll be kicking or trying to block with
their legs and feet, so you'll see them on the legs.
They usually defensive wounds are on the extremities, most likely
hands and.
Speaker 1 (37:01):
Arms, Doctor Crowns.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
How long would they have lived, depending on the nature
of the wounds themselves, how long would they have lived
knowing that they were dying.
Speaker 17 (37:14):
It depends on where the stab wounds are. If they're
in the chest and they hit the heart or the aora,
the major blood vessel from the heart, they'll bleed out
in a matter of minutes. If they're hitting the arms, extremities,
the abdomen, it's going to take a little longer. So
we're looking at, you know, a couple of minutes to
several minutes, even ten to fifteen minutes, depending on what's
(37:35):
stabbed and how long the assault occurred.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
Doctor Kendall Crowns.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
We know, based on what we've learned from law enforcement
that they believe they've got a DNA match. Now we
understand they made the match from the hair taken from
Lupita salon floor to something found at the scene. Is
it possible that the suspect got a wound himself from
(38:05):
his own knife at the scene.
Speaker 17 (38:07):
Yes, it's very possible that when someone's stabbing an individual,
the knife can become slippery and if it doesn't have
like a crossguard on it, the handle slip past the
knife as it becomes slippery and then get cut, and
then they'll reposition and then continue stabbing. But it is
very possible that they got injuries from their own knife
(38:30):
during the stabbing.
Speaker 2 (38:31):
We know that, according to at least one witness, the
perp had blood on his face. We also know that
he had cuts to his hand. Regarding the cuts to
his hand, how would those cuts in any way aid
an identification and or a DNA match.
Speaker 17 (38:53):
Well, it cuts from his hand would of course bleed,
and the blood itself would get on the individual's bodies
that he killed. They would also get on the scene
so that blood could then be used for a DNA
analysis matching it back to him.
Speaker 2 (39:08):
I'm wondering if you could tell us miss Harrol about
the dynamic between her and her husband.
Speaker 1 (39:13):
They seemed very happily married.
Speaker 5 (39:15):
They were they were supportive of each other. Kristen to
stay at home mom and Clinton worked. When she decided
to attempt to go through the nursing program and at
the two year programs was very difficult, like you're away
for two years just because of how much time you
have to put into it. And Clinton told her to
(39:37):
jump in with both feet, like there's no reason we
can't get through this. And That's exactly what Kristen did.
With Clinton's support, she was able to become a nurse
and and that just allowed them to do so much
more with their kids. They started traveling more and it
was just it was they built this beautiful life together.
Speaker 2 (40:00):
Of people are looking for a connection between the suspect,
as he is called the Devil's Den killer and them.
I don't think they knew each other. I think that
this was just a chance meeting on that trail. Do
you have any reason to believe they knew this guy?
Speaker 5 (40:17):
I don't. I agree with you. It was completely random.
I mean they were in Arkansas for what a month.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
If you'll look at this Salon video we're showing you
right now from Lupida's notice he keeps keeping his hands
when he's walking around in his pockets so the cuts
are not visible, only taking them out to explain how
he wants his hair buzzed off. Leave it long in
the front to cover his face, but buzz up the
back so it can't be traced back or compared to
that rear shot of him in the forest, doctor Kendall Crowns.
(40:47):
Many people have argued that the hair on the floor
of Lupita's salon cannot be matched DNA wise to DNA
the scene because.
Speaker 1 (40:59):
There may not be nucleus in the hair. They're not
from the root.
Speaker 2 (41:04):
That is completely discounting mitochondrial DNA found in everyone's hair.
Explain what is mitochondrial DNA, doctor Kendall Crowns, And how
can mitochondrial DNA give us a DNA match to blood
on the scene.
Speaker 17 (41:18):
So mitochondrial DNA is DNA that is found in all
cells miochondria or these little organelles within the cell itself,
and they carry DNA matches that can be matched back
to you. It's actually passed down from your mom, So
it's DNA that you get from your mom. Now that
(41:39):
being said, it's president your hair it's president your cells,
so it can be used to make a match back
to the individual that they recover tissue from.
Speaker 10 (41:50):
At the scene.
Speaker 2 (41:50):
You know, in this day and age, I'm surprised the
world doesn't know about mitochondrial DNA. But when you think
of the nucleus at the end of the hair, it's
the root. In the root, you have the mom and
the dad DNA giving you a DNA match. Right, You've
got both the mom and the dad's DNA in that nucleus.
(42:13):
But with mitochondrial DNA, that's not necessary. Mitochondrial DNA matches
can give you matches statistically such as one in four million,
four trillion. Even you don't need the nigglius of the hair.
I want to be very clear about that.
Speaker 5 (42:27):
That's correct.
Speaker 17 (42:28):
Your information is accurate.
Speaker 1 (42:30):
Doctor Kendle Crowns.
Speaker 2 (42:31):
What wounds do you expect to find on the defendant
and what traces do you believe he left in his
own car and at his apartment.
Speaker 17 (42:39):
I would expect to see wounds on the hands from
if his knife slipped and he cut his hands. Also,
there would be injuries if the individuals that were murdered
scratched at his hand, arms or tried to scratch his face,
you would see abrasion type injuries on his hands or
face as well, but probably you would see insized wounds
or cuts on the palms of the hands, mainly doctor Crown's.
Speaker 2 (43:01):
I want to be clear on another issue as well,
to avoid claims of contamination. When a victim's body is
taken from the scene, their hands are wrapped. They're covered,
usually in a paper bag, not plastic, and at the
wrist it is contained with typically a rubber band.
Speaker 1 (43:22):
So over their hands, a paper bag with a.
Speaker 2 (43:24):
Rubber band, okay, to preserve any DNA as you pointed out,
under their nails or blood on their hands. Okay, why
is that done? How do you retrieve the DNA out
from under the nails? Because I imagine this guy was
covered in scratch, marches marks, not just on his hands,
(43:47):
but in other places even though he had on a
long sleeve like his face or his neck. How is
that preserved and why a paper bag versus a plastic bag.
Speaker 17 (43:56):
Okay, so let's start with the paper bags. We use
paper bag because plastic bags create moisture. Moisture can create
bacteria or mold production, which then can create false DNA problems.
So paper is breathable, so you use that. You cover
the hands with paper because that protects the DNA from
(44:18):
the scene, so it gets to the autopsy unblemish by
anything that could happen during transport. As far as obtaining
the DNA, will do a couple of things. Swabs with
steril saline on it or a sterile solution on it
that's then rubbed underneath the fingernails to get the bits
(44:40):
and pieces out. We'll use a wood a steril wood
scraper to scrape the fingernails as well. We'll do saline
swabs on the hands, the knuckles, the palms, and then
we'll take the fingernails and clip them off and use
those and turn them into the crime lab. If the
individuals decomposed enough, you can actually remove the entire fingernail
(45:02):
from the hand and turn that into the trime lab.
For DNA analysis, you got to look at for a
white mail suspect wearing black clothes.
Speaker 1 (45:09):
That's going to be a white mail a white male
teacher wearing white.
Speaker 3 (45:15):
Gloves and right in a dark colored pants, sunglasses, dark
colored pants, and a dark color can hop.
Speaker 16 (45:20):
I'm confident that we have the right defendant in this
case and the public.
Speaker 9 (45:25):
Need don't worry going forward.
Speaker 15 (45:27):
McGann is facing two capital murder charges and the prosecutor
says he will be seeking the death penalty.
Speaker 1 (45:33):
That from our friends at Action five News.
Speaker 2 (45:37):
Will this go to trial, will they seek the death
penalty or will it fizz out like Coburger did. A
mother and a father dead on a hiking trail defending
their children. We wait as justice and folds, and we
will be in court for that arrangment. Nancy Gray signing off,
(46:00):
goodbye friend
Speaker 13 (46:06):
M
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
The Devil's Den killer suspect can't stop tickling little girls.
According to disturbed parents at schools where he wants worked
tonight where you're learning, he was bounced.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
From school to school to school.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Because of inappropriate behavior with little girls, but no one
ever fired him. That's how he ended up at the
murder scene. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I
want to thank you for being with us. Devil's Den
killer snared a white.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
Mail suspect wearing black clothes.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
That's think it's going to be a white male, a
white male teacher wearing.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
White gloves and rites in the dark colored pans, sunglasses,
dark colored pants and a dark colored cane top.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
I don't care what any defense attorney wants to tell you.
And we have video of him in the last hours
in work with his brand new defense attorney. This guy
was not insane when he allegedly stabbed a mom and
dad dad on a family hiking trail as they tried
to protect their two little girls from what and here
(01:15):
he is and here is where it all started.
Speaker 4 (01:17):
A medic for circular first responders sat Triflle. That's all
possible stabbing Devilston Say heart Brushing County received a call
from the visitor center to children are their They advised
that their parents were.
Speaker 5 (01:32):
Assaulted one was possibly stabbed. The parents are missing.
Speaker 6 (01:38):
You guys, has just security Debbleston, You're still round. Attacked
the mail and a female on Devilston Hiking trail and
then took off in a small black sports car with
tap Hofuly and we suspect the suspect of injuries due
to the witness seeing the suspect stab one of them.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Little did these ladies know they were inches away from
an alleged double chill.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Let's take a look at the video.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Notice that this guy in front of guy and everybody
just parks in the very front parking spot with the
vehicle everyone's looking for, which later was determined full of evidence,
including blood from the victims. He saunters up the front steps.
He's not even a little bit concerned. Again, this is
from Lupido's beauty salon, walking in. Notice how he keeps
(02:25):
his face down. We've heard that from the ladies in
the salon. They have repeatedly stated that, and as we
discussed last week, he is in to get all that
haircut off the back of his head. Gee, I wonder
why did it have anything to do with the fact
that he was pictured from behind with his hair coming
(02:45):
out from under his baseball cap. This is the photo
we're talking about. Now, let's go back to the Lupida
salon video. As he is in the salon, law enforcement
swarms the place.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Oh here he is sautry in and that reminds me.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Check out those shoes. Are those the shoes he wore
during the double murder. In a moment, I'm going to
circle back to Tom Green, former Washoe County Sheriff's office,
about potential evidence off the bottom of those shoes. Is
their blood on them? Is their soil from the scene?
(03:22):
You can never have enough evidence. And now I'm hearing
in my ear we have the video.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Of the arrest.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Let's say l e as they come in there, they
are plain clothes, all armed. The lady's scattering as they should.
He still has his salon cape on, and you see
his hair is getting buzzed up the back so he
won't look anything like he did on that photo.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
And there he goes with no resistance.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
Again, that is from surveillance video from Lupita's salon. Yeah,
you better run, lady. She did the right thing. There
you see undercover armed three of them and more out
in the parking lot, arresting the alleged Devil's Den double
killer Andrew James McCann and what we have learned about him.
(04:16):
We'll circle back to the video and what we're learning
from it a lot, but straight out. Joining us at
the scene, Nanette Sosa. She has been coming Devil's Dan
Park formerly k n WA in Arkansas. Nanette, thank you
for being with us. What have you learned or today?
Speaker 7 (04:36):
Everybody here at the salon is still nervous. They cannot
believe what's happened, and they too, are trying to put
together the pieces of why was their salon picked. A
white guy walks into a mostly Hispanic here salon. He's
not a regular customer. The salon's been here for decades.
Speaker 8 (04:56):
Family.
Speaker 7 (04:56):
Oh, they know their clientele, and here he just comes in,
does not even make eye contact, does not want to
sign in. They're worried already and they didn't even know
about him.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Hey, Sidney Sunder joining me in addition to Annette Sosa
Inett joining us from the scene. Sidney Sumner Crime Stories
investigative reporter, Sydney.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
I've learned that he tried.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
For two days to get a haircut, to go to
a salm, but he wouldn't sign in, he wouldn't give
his name, so he.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
Could never get in.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
Finally he gets to Lupita's and they take walkins. That's
how it happened, and it makes me wonder why he
was so obsessed with getting his hair done. Guys, I
haven't even gotten to what we have learned from previous
school districts where this guy was bounced from place to
place to place, tickling little girls uncontrollably take it having
them at private lunches a lot. But I want to
(05:51):
get back to Sidney, Sumner and Net Sydney. For two days,
this guy tried to get a haircut, that's what he's
thinking about after stabbing a mom and dad.
Speaker 9 (05:59):
Dan Well, I think it's very clearly an attempt to
change his appearance. He knew that cops were zeroing in
on his image and he needed to change his hair,
maybe his clothing, maybe something about his face. He had
cuts on his hands, for goodness sake. It was very
(06:21):
clear that if anybody took more than two glances at
him in public, they might question whether out that everyone.
Speaker 5 (06:30):
Is looking for.
Speaker 9 (06:31):
So clearly he was just trying to change his appearance.
That's why he was so desperate for this haircut.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
I think that's an answer, and so joining us formerly
KNWA in Arkansas, net. He was trying desperately to change
his appearance. And you know what is really scary. If
anything had gone sideways, he would have killed those ladies
if they had said.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Hey, you look like the Devil's Den guy.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
I guarantee you there would have been violence at Lupeda salon.
Speaker 7 (07:00):
Absolutely, and you don't know what weapons you have. We
knew about the stabbing, not to say he doesn't have
other weapons, but coming in not making eye contact, everybody
is friendly at this salon you might talk with. Everything
was going well and then this man skulks in looking down,
doesn't want to sign in and needs a haircut. And
(07:20):
he only lives but seven miles from this salon. So
whether he had scouted the area, looked around, he sat
in his car for a few minutes once he did
pull into this front parking lot right behind me, So
it was thought out he had some thoughts about that haircut.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
You know, it's really interesting.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
I'm going to throw this to Tom Green, joining us
former chief Deputy Washoe County Sheriff's off as homicide detective,
and so much more now PI, owner of Nevada Investigative Services.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Tom, thanks for being with us. You know what, have
you noticed.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
That so many killers, well purps in general, violent purps.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
That I've come in contact with anyway, they.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Pick out those that are weaker or less cunning than them,
for instance. And I'm about to get into it, but
I've got to show you in a moment the court
video that we have obtained of him and his first appearance.
But Tom Green, before I get to that, they pick
out targets weaker or less cunning than them. Think about
all the little girls he was teaching in third, fourth
(08:19):
fifth grade, tickling them uncontrollably. He can't, he can't stop.
Then picking out an unarmed mom and dad on a
hiking trail when he has a knife, and there have
been reports that it's similar to a Brian Coberger knife.
We don't know that yet, but we're trying to find
that out.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
He picks on an unarmed mom and dad.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
Then he goes into Lupita's hair, salon where there are
just a couple of ladies in there at that time
of the day. One of them has on bedroom shoes.
You know that you'd walk around inside on a lot
of people take off their regular shoes and they walk
around in socks or.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
Slip ons inside.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
My point is ladies, defenseless ladies. That's who he encounters.
Somebody that is unarmed, somebody that cannot defend themselves, someone
that is unaware, unsuspecting. He is a hyena, he is
a wolf, Tom Green looking for the weakest prey.
Speaker 10 (09:23):
Well, I don't disagree, and we know that wolves and
other predators look for what they think they can take.
They don't look for things they think they can't take,
and this verywell could be that situation. I mean, the
way he was dressed in that photo doesn't look like
you're out for a hike in eighty five degree weather
with eighty five percent humanity.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Guys, we've obtained the court video. Under our constitution, everyone
being held behind bars, particularly with Nobel, has a right
within seventy two hours to go in front of a
judge and magistrate and be told what they're charged with.
Let's take a look at this guy. The alleged Devil's
Den double kill or in court.
Speaker 8 (10:01):
And you are Andrew James P.
Speaker 7 (10:05):
Yes, you're in talking today's for for your first appearance.
Speaker 11 (10:08):
And parts are will be fed wood up to charges
property you have Roland just said it no lawn right now.
With your next court appearance for August fifth this year
at seven forty five am, that's going to be your
writing agents active attention center. There's been a finding me
that probably will cause you this attain that they might
(10:30):
have judged previously.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
Let's take a look at that from the beginning. Let's
roll that one more time. We've transcribed it for you
so you can make out every word that stated in court.
Please roll it and you are Andrew James P.
Speaker 11 (10:44):
Yes, you're in talking today's for for your first appearance
and purples are will be fus woe up to charges
property you know having working for the voland is set
at no lawn right now. With your next court appearance
for audi think of this year at seven forty five am,
that's going to be your undy.
Speaker 7 (11:04):
Gat actor and attention center.
Speaker 11 (11:07):
There's been in finding me that probable causes distentitaina was
made might judge previously.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
I's around friends at Fox for Dallas, and I noticed
on the camera straight out to Tom Green joining us
former Chief Deputy Washoe County, that there were from what
I could tell, nine guards positioned around the courtroom. This
guy McGann was very close to the judge, very close
(11:36):
to the judge. Most of the guards that I could
see were armed, and I imagine they all were, some
in uniform, some in playing clothes.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
So nobody knows what this guy is going to do.
Speaker 10 (11:48):
Yeah, well, you know, a courthouse security is imperative, especially
that you know clearly it's a small courtroom. He's charged
with serious offenses. There's a lot of public interests. You
don't know what family members are are out there or
that that didn't want to, you know, potentially lash out
towards him, understandably. So, yeah, courtroom security is going to
be significant through this empire. Every court appearance he has
(12:11):
is going to be met with heavy presence of courts security,
both inside and outside.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
I'm not really worry Tom about family members attacking him.
I'm worried about him attacking someone in the courtroom. Did
you see how close he was to the judge?
Speaker 10 (12:26):
Absolutely, And as you know, if if we you know
if this ends up in a jury trial situation, you
know he has to he has to have the perception
of being out of custody, meaning no restraints at least
in this Uh, you know he's going to have restraints.
Speaker 9 (12:40):
This is what we know.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
He will have his formal arraignment within days.
Speaker 5 (12:45):
What is that?
Speaker 2 (12:47):
That means he will either have a preliminary hearing, which
I doubt. That is when the state calls enough witnesses
to show probable cause to have him bound over or
sent to the correct court, which would be superior court
where felonies are tried, or there will be.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
A secret grand jury. What is a grand jury?
Speaker 2 (13:07):
Those are voters from this jurisdiction that will likely hear
just one witness, typically the lead detective in the case,
who will summarize the evidence against the defendant. This is
not a guilt phase, guilt or innocence phase. This is
asking a grand jury simply is there enough evidence in
your mind to take this case to trial? They will
(13:30):
more likely than not render a true bill of indictment
and the case will then be assigned to a trial judge.
At that point, this guy, the alleged Devil's Den double killer,
will go to that courtroom. There he is where there's
a new haircut covering his face. He will go to
(13:50):
that courtroom and be arraigned where he will be formally
read his capital murder charges.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Alleged double killer took off.
Speaker 6 (14:00):
On a small black sports car with taper for the
police and we suspect the suspect of injuries.
Speaker 3 (14:06):
Car.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
Oh, dear Lord in heaven. There he is, and it
looks just like the composite sketch.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
In the last hours, we have obtained what is called
the intake surveillance of the alleged Devilstein killer.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
Let's take a look at that now here we see him.
This is an aerial view.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
I'm just curious. Are these the same shoes he wore
at the double murders? Please hold onto those shoes for
Pete's sake. You are taking a look at video surveillance
inside the jail where he is having as we call it, intake.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
Tom Green explain what is intake?
Speaker 5 (14:48):
Well, intake is going to.
Speaker 10 (14:49):
Be the process that they're going to They're going to
take his mug shot, they're going to take some fingerprints.
But before all that occurs, they are going to make
sure he doesn't have any weapons on him, any or
any items of evidence obvious. Now, in cases such as this,
it would be common for the detectives, I know, we
would have to take every item of clothing, underwear, socks,
all of it and book that into evidence and have
(15:11):
that forensically examined. But yeah, that is the process of intake,
is to make sure he doesn't have any any weapons
on him, to completely search him and get those identifiers
from him. They're asking biological information and where do you live,
where your parents next to? In these kinds of.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
Things, notice that every single person around him is armed
and they better be. Now we're tasked with finding out
what led to his arrest and what clues, if any,
are left behind. But first I'm going to go straight
back out to Nanette Sosa joining us. They're at Lupido's salon,
(15:46):
who graciously has allowed us to use all of their
surveillance of video.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
Nanette, what have you learned there at the salon?
Speaker 8 (15:53):
Brad learned? This salon is so busy, For example, thirteen
hairstylists on hand weekends. It's busy. It was just clearing
out that particular night where he where he entered. However,
this place is busy They are scared. All of them
are scared knowing that he was in this shop. Why
(16:14):
are they were here or not? They are scared.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
You know another interesting thing and I want to go
out to our guest, doctor Janey Lacey, and guys. This
video is from our friends at Lupitea's Beauty Salon. Psychotherapist
and CEO of Life Counseling Solutions, Doctor Janie, thank you
for being with us. And many people, including myself, are
struck by his demeanor. He seems so calm. Of course,
(16:39):
it's one thing when you're uncontrollably tickling little girls on
the playground and you can't seem to stop yourself, or
you're having private lunches with the little girls without their
parents knowing about it, or you're attacking two unarmed parents
on a family hiking trail. That's an entirely different scenario
(17:00):
than being in court surrounded by nine armed guards. But
his demeanor, even in luped Salon, he's looking down. He
seems very quiet and self contained. How do you reconcile
the two the demon that appeared at Devil's Dan hiking
trail and this guy.
Speaker 12 (17:20):
Well, the way that we reconcile that Nancy is that
they learn to compartmentalize and they learn to operate in
little boxes. So when we see him in this clip,
there's not eye contact and there's probably very little communication
so that he doesn't have to connect with the person
who he's actually discussed talking to. So they stay disassociated,
(17:41):
they stay not connected, and they don't less necessarily because
you're looking at eye contact and you're engaging in conversation,
you're connecting with the person. So this would tell me
that he's learned to compartmentalize, he does not connect, and
that he keeps himself very guarded so that people can't
necessarily read him, or so he thinks, how was this
guy apprehended?
Speaker 13 (18:01):
Listen, the Brink children and another witness on the trail
helped create a sketch of the suspect. Other visitors to
the park were able to provide photos to investigators, helping
with the description of the vehicle, a black forty sedan.
Up to ten videos from homes and businesses along routes
in and out of the park, providing a good description
of the vehicle.
Speaker 14 (18:22):
With that vehicle information that became critical in identifying our suspects.
So with the photos or the tips that came in
with the composite and the photo. As the colonel said,
we received over five hundred tips. As we began to
hone in on the vehicle, it became clear that it
(18:42):
was a Kia Stinger, and we used that information to
vet various owners and our suspect was identified.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
This for our friends at KOTV Sidney Summer joining US
Crime Stories investigative Reporter Sidney, we are now hearing reports
to the little girls.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
The two little daughters.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
Seven and nine didn't run all the way down the trail,
as we were first told that they were afraid and
found all alone crying on the trail.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
And someone brought them down. This is after mom.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Tells them to keep running and circles back to try
and defend her husband from the killer.
Speaker 9 (19:25):
What do we know, Well, as you said, we know
that the girls were found on the trail and someone
took them into the visitor center. And at this point
it's still somewhat unclear if the person that grabbed the
girls and took them to the visitor center knew that
their parents were attacked or simply thought that these little
(19:47):
girls were separated from their parents and needed help finding them.
So in the visitor center is when these girls were
eventually put on the phone directly with the nine one
one operator in the full story started to come to
fruition and police officers and EMTs were staged at the scene.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
The arrogance of this guy leaving his car parked right
in front of Lupita Salon. When we're doing a manhunt
trying to find this guy based on what they learned
from witnesses at the scene, a search warrant was executed.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
Listen, we executed a.
Speaker 4 (20:25):
Search warrant as residents.
Speaker 10 (20:28):
There were articles found there that are consistent with being
involved in this particular crime.
Speaker 13 (20:35):
McGann taught at Sand Springs until May of this year.
Former student Shalen Brown says the black backpack shown in
a picture was the same bag McGann had while he
taught at Sand Springs.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
Yes, Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
On the return from that search warrant. What is a
return When a search warrant is executed, everything that is
taken from the home is written down on a return.
That's where our friend's a KOTV. What was on that
return waiting to find out, but we do know the
backpack was identified by children at a previous school. There's
(21:22):
not only the car, but I want to point out
what was found in the car itself. There's the backpack
that was identified by previous students and that's so joining
us there at Lupita Salon and barbershott and that what
was what do we know that was found in the car?
Speaker 8 (21:38):
Alerties here did find blood traces of blood within the car.
That is do the probable cause that was released Other
than that, as far as he was concerned, he was
sitting in that barber chair. His hands had cut slices
on them as well, so they saw that and asked
them to it up from the chair and they faced
(22:01):
handcuffs on him. And he was in the middle of
the on the haircut when still had the barber tape
on when the handcuffed him. But it was definitely blood
that was found on the inside of the car, the Kiya,
which was parked here in the front of Mifita's Beauty salon.
Speaker 13 (22:17):
Arkansas State Police interview a witness who saw someone with
blood on his face get into a black sedan and
drive onto State Highway one seventy. A second witness says
the car is a Kia stinger. This became extremely important
as investigators put out a sketch of the suspect and
type of vehicle and asked the public for help. Law
enforcement received multiple videos from homes and businesses showing the
(22:41):
black stinger.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
This man is obviously twisted. He gave her a bad feeling.
He put off a bad vibe. Something is wrong with him.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
Hikers on that trail that came in contact with McGann,
the alleged Devil's Double killer, said he gave a bad
vibe for many different reasons. And in our business, you
don't discount that. You don't discount a hunch.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
And they were right. They were the only ones that
got a bad vibe off the sky.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
Why did he bounce from school to school, to school
to school before he landed here at Devil's Den?
Speaker 1 (23:22):
Well listen.
Speaker 15 (23:23):
Parents of mcghann's students at schools in Oklahoma and Texas
say the twenty eight year old suspect was a sick
pervert and his behavior was unusual. There were girls McGahn
would tickle at Donald Elementary School in Flower Mountain, Texas.
McGahn would invite special girls to have lunch in his
classroom while other students ate in the cafeteria. Parents report
McGann's behavior to Lewisville isasde and Donald Elementary staff. But
(23:47):
everything got swept under the rug.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
I really don't even know what to say about that quote,
swept under the rug. And this is according to parents
of students. And it wasn't just that school. He went
from that school to another to another. I wonder who
was the special girl that got to have lunch, a
private lunch in his classroom while the others ate in
the cafeteria.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
And I'd like to know what was said at those
private lunches.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
I know, straight out to Sydney Sumner joining us from
crime stories that he told one little girl, I wish
you could be my girlfriend. Oh honey, fur would fly
if somebody, a male teacher told that to one of
my children, I wish you could be my girlfriend or boyfriend.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
What happened, Sidney Sumner? And why was he never reprimanded?
He just went from school to school to school.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
Didn't nobody have the backbone to file an actual complaint
where they that afraid they'd get sued.
Speaker 9 (24:43):
It's very unclear why this elementary school teacher, who apparently
never met expectations and had this history of inappropriate behavior
with female students, was allowed to just move on from
the his job and start somewhere else. Parents were apparently
(25:04):
very upset that McGann was able to resign and just
move to a new school district and didn't face any
kind of consequences for his actions. Now that school district
said they didn't find any evidence that he really was
acting inappropriately with female students, but he did not meet
their expectation and was allowed to resign instead of being fired.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
Whoa, whoa, whoa.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
Woa, Sidney, I'm not going to kill the messenger, but
I find it highly inappropriate to uncontrollably like you can't
stop himself from tickling little girls. According to reports joining
me doctor Jane Lacy, what is nismophilia.
Speaker 12 (25:45):
Well, misopelia is basically a tickling fetish nancy. So most
of the time people are using it, especially predators, because
there is some typo sexual pleasure that they'll get from
the actual tickling or being tickling, and there's usually a
power dynamic that occurs and what we'll see nancy with predators.
It becomes almost socially acceptable because tickling appears harmless to
(26:07):
most observers, and this sensitation process gradually normalizes.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
Okay, rewind, rewind, Okay, you got to start at the beginning.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
Miss Mophelia is a sex fetish where you like to
tickle people, whether they want to be tickled or not,
to where the victim is. They're not laughing, they're crying.
They don't like it, but you keep doing it, and
you can't stop yourself. Could you it's a power dynamic.
(26:41):
Could you start that over again? It was you got
me drinking from the fire hydrant, Doctor Jenney. Too much
information at once. Just slow it down for me. I'm
just a trial while you go ahead.
Speaker 12 (26:51):
So when we consider missul Flemia, it's also considered a
tickling fetish. And what we'll see, Nancy, with the tickling
fetish is that there's pleasure that's derived from tickling or
being tickled, and we'll see that there's usually like a
dominant submission dynamics, a power dynamic at play. So when
it comes to our suspect and the power dynamic of
(27:14):
him being a teacher and him tickling his students, we'll
see it happen with predators because tickling usually appears harmless
to observers right, it becomes socially acceptable touch. And what
we'll also see is this desensitation process that occurs nance
because what happens is they gradually normalize inappropriate physical contact
(27:37):
and they also can build trust. They're using playful interactions
to gain a child comfort. And what will also see
is a lot of testing of boundaries happen. They're assessing
the child's vulnerability and also the adult supervision around. So
predators will also will look at this isolation indicators what
we call it, where they'll determine if adults will actually intervene.
(27:59):
So when we see a lot of these warning signs
that have been reported, he had excessive physical contact with
the children, and he was targeting specific genders, the young girls,
and he created these special relationships.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
With these students.
Speaker 12 (28:11):
And the boundary violations and professional settings that was reported
that some of the parents recognize as actually a grooming behavior.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
You know what this is telling me to Tom Green,
former Chief Deputy Washoe County Sheriffs, You're hearing what doctor
Janey Lacey is saying, and to me, this is giving
credence to the theory that McGann tried to grab one
of the little girls or both ages seven and nine
(28:43):
typically one to either molest them or something else like
the tickling, to feed his own sexual fetish, and the
parents stopped him.
Speaker 10 (28:56):
That's absolutely rational theory. And we can't forget me and
see the nine year old the same age as the
children that's going to be in the class he was
about start teaching, and what a week and days out?
Speaker 5 (29:09):
What if ses Tom?
Speaker 1 (29:11):
Tom?
Speaker 2 (29:12):
That's important? Well, that's important. I want to follow up
with that, doctor Janey Lacey. That's important because purps, especially molesters,
typically have an age and a sex and a type.
Here's an example, not exactly on point, but look at
Ted Bundy. If you look at his victims, so many
(29:33):
of them look the same for a long period of
time until he got completely out of control and would
just basically attack anybody that he could get close to.
But at the beginning, he would pick out one woman
after the next. As I recall seeing their pictures side
by side, all thin white females, dark hair similar facially,
(29:54):
hair parted down the middle. As I'm just recalling them
off the top of my head, that was his uh,
preferred victim, whether consciously or subconsciously. And Tom Green pointed
out the girls that age are the same girls as
these victims, particularly the nine year old.
Speaker 12 (30:10):
Well, he said it, Nancy, that he targeted his preference,
and he showed excessive favoritism towards this particular age range.
And also he had access to them because this was
the age range of what he was teaching. So it's
by no accident in my opinion, that he particularly targeted
this family that had these young girls because they were
(30:30):
part of his target that we have now have described
by a lot of different people on through.
Speaker 9 (30:35):
His history.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
Crime stories with Nancy Grace joining us now is a
very special guest. It's Danica Harold. She has a longtime
friend of the murdered mom and dad stabbed dead on
a public hiking trail, four families trying to protect their daughters.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
Miss Harrol, thank you for being with us. Thank you.
When did you learn that your friends had passed away?
Were killed?
Speaker 5 (31:12):
About midnight between Saturday and Sunday.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
How did you find out the news?
Speaker 5 (31:18):
Someone sent me a news article and I actually thought
it was a hoax, so I started researching it.
Speaker 1 (31:25):
Now you've known them for a long time.
Speaker 5 (31:28):
Yees, since twenty sixteen.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
What was your reaction when you discovered they hadn't just
passed on that they had actually been stabbed dead.
Speaker 5 (31:35):
It was very it was very hard to learn that information.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
Could you tell us, miss Harold, about the two of them?
We keep hearing that they were murdered trying to protect
their daughters. That the mom helped her two little girls
get away from the killer, and then after they were
safe in her mind, she went back to help fight
(32:02):
the killer off her husband, and in so doing she
herself was murdered trying to defend him.
Speaker 1 (32:09):
Does that sound like her?
Speaker 5 (32:11):
One hundred percent? They were all about their family.
Speaker 2 (32:14):
Tell us what you can't about them because they have
turned into props for the killer.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
We just hear they were stabbed. What can you tell
us about them? How did you meet? Describe them for us?
Speaker 5 (32:29):
Actually met them? They joined my co ed volleyball league,
and she would bring her daughters with volleyball, and it
turns out we had, you know, two daughters that were
the same age. So then that in turn led to
us hanging out outside of volleyball, and she was just
as sweet as could be. I ran into some issues
(32:50):
with childcare, and she offered to take my daughter overnight
while I worked out of town, didn't even bat an eyelash,
and you know, she had to keep her Christmas one year,
and she went as far as to make sure that
my daughter had the same matching pajamas as her kids.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
So you became very close we did.
Speaker 5 (33:09):
She lived, She's probably about half miles from my house,
and I'd go on walks and we'd stop at her
house and we'd just sit down and visit and she'd
make some coffee or tea, and our daughters would play outside.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
To Mercia King, veteran trial lawyer and joining us Merscha again,
thank you for being with us. Any kind of a
sexual perversion or sex fetish does not rise to insanity.
And noting how he was dressed, how he obscured his
tag license number, how he screeched out of there at
(33:43):
a high rate of speed, all of that indicates pre
planning and guilty conscience upon flight. So even if he
has a sex fetish with tickling little girls, that doesn't
ride to insanity, does it.
Speaker 16 (33:58):
He did have some knowledge about what he was doing
and that what he was doing was actually wrong, So
when you get to an insanity defense, that's something that
his lawyers are going to have to really really flesh
out to the jury for the jury to buy that
type of defense. But as you stated him fleeing, getting
(34:21):
the haircut, all of those things go to show his
state of mind and that he knew whatever that he
had done or whatever it happened was wrong, it was unlawful.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
This guy bounced between four districts in three states.
Speaker 1 (34:38):
Listen.
Speaker 15 (34:38):
Baron's complaints lead to him placed on administrative leave before
his resignation letter. Parent Lindsay Polyak suggest if McGann had
been terminated instead of allowing him to resign, determination would
have been on his record and might have raised some
red flags for other teaching jobs. But since he was
allowed to resign, he was hired by at least two
other school districts and was getting ready to start the
(35:00):
new school. You're in Arkansas.
Speaker 2 (35:02):
Joining us now is doctor Kendall Crown's chief medical examiner
Terrant County. That's Fort Worth and start of a brand
new podcast, Mayhem and the Morgue Esteemed a lecturer at
the Burnett School of Medicine at TCU. Doctor Crowns, thank
you for being with us. We know that he the
alleged killer. The suspect McGann was spotted by witnesses with
(35:23):
blood on his face. We know blood was found in
the car. We have been told the victims were stabbed.
What can you tell us about cod cause of death?
We know the mom went back to try to protect Clint,
the husband. What would you expect to find on the victims' bodies.
Speaker 17 (35:43):
There'd probably be multiple stab wounds on varying locations. Usually
with stab wounds, there isn't just one. It's usually several,
usually greater than ten. They'll probably be defense wounds, injuries
on the hands or the forearms as the individual's to
stop being stabbed and is grabbing at the knife, things
(36:03):
of that nature. Probably the majority of the wounds will
be in the neck, chest and back area on each victim.
Speaker 1 (36:10):
When you say.
Speaker 2 (36:11):
Defensive wounds, doctor Kennel Crowns can defensive wounds not only
be on the palms of the hands between the fingers
trying to ward off.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
The pert from stabbing, but also.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
On the exterior of the arms when they hold their
arms up like this, even on their back and on
their legs. When victims curl up in a fetal position,
maybe even here on their upper arms they try to
protect their face or their eternal organs. Where else would
you expect to find defensive wounds on the victims?
Speaker 17 (36:46):
That would be the majority of them is on the hands, forearms,
even the backs of the arms, and occasionally, when they
are down, they'll be kicking or trying to block with
their legs and feet, so you'll see them on the legs.
They usually defensive wounds are on the extremities, most likely
hands and.
Speaker 1 (37:01):
Arms, Doctor Crowns.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
How long would they have lived, depending on the nature
of the wounds themselves, how long would they have lived
knowing that they were dying.
Speaker 17 (37:14):
It depends on where the stab wounds are. If they're
in the chest and they hit the heart or the aora,
the major blood vessel from the heart, they'll bleed out
in a matter of minutes. If they're hitting the arms, extremities,
the abdomen, it's going to take a little longer. So
we're looking at, you know, a couple of minutes to
several minutes, even ten to fifteen minutes, depending on what's
(37:35):
stabbed and how long the assault occurred.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
Doctor Kendall Crowns.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
We know, based on what we've learned from law enforcement
that they believe they've got a DNA match. Now we
understand they made the match from the hair taken from
Lupita salon floor to something found at the scene. Is
it possible that the suspect got a wound himself from
(38:05):
his own knife at the scene.
Speaker 17 (38:07):
Yes, it's very possible that when someone's stabbing an individual,
the knife can become slippery and if it doesn't have
like a crossguard on it, the handle slip past the
knife as it becomes slippery and then get cut, and
then they'll reposition and then continue stabbing. But it is
very possible that they got injuries from their own knife
(38:30):
during the stabbing.
Speaker 2 (38:31):
We know that, according to at least one witness, the
perp had blood on his face. We also know that
he had cuts to his hand. Regarding the cuts to
his hand, how would those cuts in any way aid
an identification and or a DNA match.
Speaker 17 (38:53):
Well, it cuts from his hand would of course bleed,
and the blood itself would get on the individual's bodies
that he killed. They would also get on the scene
so that blood could then be used for a DNA
analysis matching it back to him.
Speaker 2 (39:08):
I'm wondering if you could tell us miss Harrol about
the dynamic between her and her husband.
Speaker 1 (39:13):
They seemed very happily married.
Speaker 5 (39:15):
They were they were supportive of each other. Kristen to
stay at home mom and Clinton worked. When she decided
to attempt to go through the nursing program and at
the two year programs was very difficult, like you're away
for two years just because of how much time you
have to put into it. And Clinton told her to
(39:37):
jump in with both feet, like there's no reason we
can't get through this. And That's exactly what Kristen did.
With Clinton's support, she was able to become a nurse
and and that just allowed them to do so much
more with their kids. They started traveling more and it
was just it was they built this beautiful life together.
Speaker 2 (40:00):
Of people are looking for a connection between the suspect,
as he is called the Devil's Den killer and them.
I don't think they knew each other. I think that
this was just a chance meeting on that trail. Do
you have any reason to believe they knew this guy?
Speaker 5 (40:17):
I don't. I agree with you. It was completely random.
I mean they were in Arkansas for what a month.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
If you'll look at this Salon video we're showing you
right now from Lupida's notice he keeps keeping his hands
when he's walking around in his pockets so the cuts
are not visible, only taking them out to explain how
he wants his hair buzzed off. Leave it long in
the front to cover his face, but buzz up the
back so it can't be traced back or compared to
that rear shot of him in the forest, doctor Kendall Crowns.
(40:47):
Many people have argued that the hair on the floor
of Lupita's salon cannot be matched DNA wise to DNA
the scene because.
Speaker 1 (40:59):
There may not be nucleus in the hair. They're not
from the root.
Speaker 2 (41:04):
That is completely discounting mitochondrial DNA found in everyone's hair.
Explain what is mitochondrial DNA, doctor Kendall Crowns, And how
can mitochondrial DNA give us a DNA match to blood
on the scene.
Speaker 17 (41:18):
So mitochondrial DNA is DNA that is found in all
cells miochondria or these little organelles within the cell itself,
and they carry DNA matches that can be matched back
to you. It's actually passed down from your mom, So
it's DNA that you get from your mom. Now that
(41:39):
being said, it's president your hair it's president your cells,
so it can be used to make a match back
to the individual that they recover tissue from.
Speaker 10 (41:50):
At the scene.
Speaker 2 (41:50):
You know, in this day and age, I'm surprised the
world doesn't know about mitochondrial DNA. But when you think
of the nucleus at the end of the hair, it's
the root. In the root, you have the mom and
the dad DNA giving you a DNA match. Right, You've
got both the mom and the dad's DNA in that nucleus.
(42:13):
But with mitochondrial DNA, that's not necessary. Mitochondrial DNA matches
can give you matches statistically such as one in four million,
four trillion. Even you don't need the nigglius of the hair.
I want to be very clear about that.
Speaker 5 (42:27):
That's correct.
Speaker 17 (42:28):
Your information is accurate.
Speaker 1 (42:30):
Doctor Kendle Crowns.
Speaker 2 (42:31):
What wounds do you expect to find on the defendant
and what traces do you believe he left in his
own car and at his apartment.
Speaker 17 (42:39):
I would expect to see wounds on the hands from
if his knife slipped and he cut his hands. Also,
there would be injuries if the individuals that were murdered
scratched at his hand, arms or tried to scratch his face,
you would see abrasion type injuries on his hands or
face as well, but probably you would see insized wounds
or cuts on the palms of the hands, mainly doctor Crown's.
Speaker 2 (43:01):
I want to be clear on another issue as well,
to avoid claims of contamination. When a victim's body is
taken from the scene, their hands are wrapped. They're covered,
usually in a paper bag, not plastic, and at the
wrist it is contained with typically a rubber band.
Speaker 1 (43:22):
So over their hands, a paper bag with a.
Speaker 2 (43:24):
Rubber band, okay, to preserve any DNA as you pointed out,
under their nails or blood on their hands. Okay, why
is that done? How do you retrieve the DNA out
from under the nails? Because I imagine this guy was
covered in scratch, marches marks, not just on his hands,
(43:47):
but in other places even though he had on a
long sleeve like his face or his neck. How is
that preserved and why a paper bag versus a plastic bag.
Speaker 17 (43:56):
Okay, so let's start with the paper bags. We use
paper bag because plastic bags create moisture. Moisture can create
bacteria or mold production, which then can create false DNA problems.
So paper is breathable, so you use that. You cover
the hands with paper because that protects the DNA from
(44:18):
the scene, so it gets to the autopsy unblemish by
anything that could happen during transport. As far as obtaining
the DNA, will do a couple of things. Swabs with
steril saline on it or a sterile solution on it
that's then rubbed underneath the fingernails to get the bits
(44:40):
and pieces out. We'll use a wood a steril wood
scraper to scrape the fingernails as well. We'll do saline
swabs on the hands, the knuckles, the palms, and then
we'll take the fingernails and clip them off and use
those and turn them into the crime lab. If the
individuals decomposed enough, you can actually remove the entire fingernail
(45:02):
from the hand and turn that into the trime lab.
For DNA analysis, you got to look at for a
white mail suspect wearing black clothes.
Speaker 1 (45:09):
That's going to be a white mail a white male
teacher wearing white.
Speaker 3 (45:15):
Gloves and right in a dark colored pants, sunglasses, dark
colored pants, and a dark color can hop.
Speaker 16 (45:20):
I'm confident that we have the right defendant in this
case and the public.
Speaker 9 (45:25):
Need don't worry going forward.
Speaker 15 (45:27):
McGann is facing two capital murder charges and the prosecutor
says he will be seeking the death penalty.
Speaker 1 (45:33):
That from our friends at Action five News.
Speaker 2 (45:37):
Will this go to trial, will they seek the death
penalty or will it fizz out like Coburger did. A
mother and a father dead on a hiking trail defending
their children. We wait as justice and folds, and we
will be in court for that arrangment. Nancy Gray signing off,
(46:00):
goodbye friend
Speaker 13 (46:06):
M
Host
Nancy Grace
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