A Florida teen allegedly strangled his mother and buried her under a church fire pit over a poor report card grade. Nancy Grace looks at the case against 15-year-old Gregory Ramos, charged in the murder of mother Gail Cleavenger. Nancy's experts include forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan, North Carolina lawyer Kathleen Murphy, forensic psychiatrist Dr. Daniel Bober, Atlanta lawyer Penny Douglas-Furr, and reporter Nicole Partin. Nancy also updates the investigation into what led to the Thousand Oaks bar massacre. The former marine who killed a dozen people, including a sheriff's deputy, posted a Facebook message before he opened fire on the crowd at Borderline Bar and Grill in which he appears critical of responses to previous mass shootings in the U.S.
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Do you know another parent or expecting parent. Are you
wondering what can I give them as a gift. Don't
give them another onesie, don't give them a plastic toy
or god forbid, a toy gun that's just gonna end
up in the garage. Give them something that matters, and
what matters the most is protecting their child. What do
(00:20):
you love most in the world Your children? What will
you do to protect them anything. I sat down with
these smartest people I know in the world on matters
of child's safety, finding missing children, fighting back against predators,
and what I learned is so important, powerful and information
(00:40):
so critical. I want you to have it. I want
them to have it. Go to crime stops here dot
com for a five part series with action information that
you can use to change your life and protect your child.
Payments starting six. Give that as a gift, not an
other one. Find out how to protect your child when
(01:03):
you're out of the mall or the store, or the grocery,
in the parking lot at home. Find out about protection
regarding babysitters, in daycare, even online. I'd rather have that
any day of the week than a plastic toy our
God forbid a toy gun. Join Justice Nation, go to
(01:23):
crime Stops here dot com. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
This morning we were called out here Ali Conte in
reference to a fifteen year old had come home from school. Uh.
(01:46):
His front door was kicked in, her side door was
kicked in, the house was ransacked. His mother's car was
in the driveway and the engine was running, and hence
the investigation began. And as the investigation began, it became
quite apparent that this was not an act of random violence,
that in fact, a fifteen year old probably had killed
his mother sometime last night, and after some great detective work,
(02:12):
in great police work, we were able to charge or
actuallyssary in the process of charging her fifteen year old
son was strangling her to death sometime after midnight into
Friday morning. Uh. He then took the body to a
nearby church where he buried underneath of the fire pit.
(02:32):
Came back to the house, staged a burglary, got some
of his friends to get involved to get the electronics
and a gun that was stolen. I Nancy Grace, this
is Crime Stories, Thank you for being with us. Did
a schoolboy strangle his architect mom dad and then bury
her body under a church fire pit, begging his friends
(02:54):
to make it all look like a burglary. And it's
all over a bad grade at school. I can hardly
take it in. I'm gonna tell you, it's making me
rethink every time I picked the twins up at school
and go, hey, how'd you do on your social studies test? Yeah?
If you make an A? Is that too much stress?
What have I lost my mind? It's not her fault.
(03:18):
The kid made a d and she fussed at him,
and he murdered her. You know what, Let me get
the facts first to Nicole parton Crime online dot Com
investigative reporter who we were just hearing as the Volucia
County Sheriff Mike Chitwood describing the investigation to the death
of a lovely young mom, Gail cleveland Er. Nicole uh
(03:41):
intimately familiar with the facts. Start at the beginning, Nicole,
what happened from fifteen year old Gregory? He later says
he deserves the Grammy for that call. He says he
came home from school, his mother is missing. The home
has been ramsacked, their items that are missing, The front
door has kicked in, her car is running in the driveway,
(04:03):
and he says she's not there and he doesn't know
what's happened. I can hardly take it in uh. Nicole
parton Joining Me Crime online dot Com investigative reporter, Nicole,
how did it all start? Tell me about what police
find when they get there? Nancy Sheriff Chitwood, calling this
one of the saddest, most disturbing cases of his career.
(04:25):
And you're right, it all starts over a bad grade.
Approximately eleven pm at night, Gale and her fifteen year
old son get into a discussion about this bad grade.
He storms off into his bedroom typical fifteen year old behavior,
I'm assuming, slams the door. But then around midnight, he
comes out of the bedroom, goes into his mother's bedroom
where she's sleeping, wakes her up, and begins to strangle her.
(04:48):
Joining me is Nicole Parton Crime online dot Com investigative
reporter renew family lawyer out of North Carolina, Kathleen Murphy, Dr.
Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist, and boy, do we need a shrink?
Also with me Penny Douglas for trial lawyer of the
Atlanta Jurisdiction and also joining me, death investigator Joseph Scott Morgan,
(05:11):
professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University and author of
a new book, Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. Okay,
I want to figure out the scene. We we don't
know what happened to Joe Scott Morrigan explained to me
what we are looking at crime evidence wise? What are
(05:32):
the c s I looking for? Well, I think the
biggest the watchword here, Nancy is consistency. Uh what is
it that is being uh seen observable by the law
enforcement officers upon rival. We've got evidence that, according to
what is being said, that a door has been kicked in,
(05:53):
that the area throughout the house has been ransacked. That
gives us the initial impression at least, uh that there
may be a property crime go gone wrong. And one
of the more interesting things is that her vehicle was
found a van outside of the home and according to
(06:13):
this young man, the vehicle was found running. So this
all initially at least gives the police an idea that
maybe this is a break in gone bad. After speaking
to neighbors there in DeBerry, Florida, they say that yo Clevelander,
uh deeply religious, very well educated at an architect, Mom
(06:36):
and was extremely supportive of her son, extremely supportive of him.
And it's hard for me to take in that a
a child, he's still a miner, would kill his own mother. Uh.
To Dr Daniel bober forensic psychiatrists, patricide or killing him
(06:57):
a parent is very very rare, especially matricide killing of
the mother. Why is that so rare? Dr Bober Well, Nancy,
I mean it has to do with the attachment that
you know a child has with their mother. It's just
a very rare event. But remember something. You know, this
(07:19):
is a fifteen year old kid, and a lot of
times when fifteen year old to do things, they're very impulsive.
But the fact that he waited, there was a delay,
and then he strangled her, and then he staged the
scene to make it look like a burglary. I mean
that comes from a very different place. This was not
uh an impulsive act. This was very cold and it
was very calculated. Take a listen to Milusia County Sheriff
(07:41):
Mike Chitwood answering questions rage. Apparently there was a dispute
about March with his mother um and in her an argument.
OC heard it around eleven o'clock or so and a
run twelve thirty. He went into her room and woke
her up and began strangling, strangled until he killed. And
(08:01):
then he had to do something with the body. So
he he put the body in the back of his
mother's call, drove to Daytona and and Ally Hillarry where
he was going to dispose of the body, thought better
of it, came back home, got shovel, got everything he needed,
drove one five miles down the road to the church. Uh,
Doug depositive mother in it, covered it up. Maybe trime
(08:25):
scene look like a burglary had occurred, uh, and then
went to school, left school early, which is where still
he began to fall apart, and then got home and
made his uh, in his own words, a Grammy winning
phone call to talk about this horrible incident. It did
not really occur to Penny Douglas Fur joining me Atlanta
(08:50):
defense lawyer, Penny Douglas Fur, if you have to handle
this case for the defense, what are you going to say?
He's just really a misunderstood boy. There obviously some psychological
issues there. I would first have him examined because kids
don't get bad grades because they want to get bad
grades and I don't know what the mother said to him,
(09:11):
but whatever it was, it pushed him over the edge.
We need to know what else happened, what led up
to this, Did he have bad grades before this, and
what were they doing to try and fix it. It
sounds like his mother's well educated and if her child
is getting bad grades, she would get somebody to work
with him and somebody to help him. So I'm trying
(09:33):
to find out. I would first try to find out
where all of this came from and how long this
had been happening. Of course, Penny Douglas for the Consummate
defense attorney says, I'd like to find out what the
mom said that made him do this. You know what,
the more victim blaming, Kathleen, But I get a penny.
(09:57):
That's what you do for a living, not judging, not
not better, excuse me not judging to Kathleen Murphy, North
Carolina lawyer, you have a very different take on this kid.
I absolutely have a different take on this child. I
have a take on the status of this child's relationship
(10:18):
with both of his parents. I have an opinion that
this child was manipulating his mother throughout his life. The
father was away on a business trick. You got back tonight. Um,
so you know there's a lot of there's a lot
of heartache, and that finally you know, not only do
(10:40):
you have a son killers her mother, but you have
the father who was away and you know he comes back,
he lands. The next thing he knows the police. You
have taken him into the police district to talk about
your wife is missing. Oh my stars, can you imagine
you get back in town, your house is ransacked and
your wife, your your spouse is missing. We're talking about
out a lovely young mother, Gil Clevelander, an educated woman
(11:04):
who was very supportive of her son, Greg, aged fifteen.
Oh my stars, Oh my stars. And to get that news.
I'm easy, Grace, this is crime Stories. Thank you for
being with us. Now, Penny Douglas for Atlanta veteran defense
attorney says, oh, well, clearly the boy, the little boy
(11:29):
has a psychological problem. And I wonder what the mom said,
what Gail Clevanger said to make him do this? All right,
I can't say I expected anything different, But Kathleen, not judging,
not judging, Penny joining right now, Kathleen Murphy, North Carolina lawyer,
Let's just say She's not as sympathetic to Gregory absolutely
(11:52):
as Penny Douglas. Fur is Kathleen Murphy. What have you learned?
I've learned that this child was manipulating, in my opinion,
his mother all of his life because he has the
ability to man up to her. There was not a
father figure in this child's life. And this child has
a presence online that is also somewhat disturbing. So if
(12:16):
his mother is concerned about a D on his report
card and approaches him about it, she should really be concerned.
What is he doing on four Chan? What is he
doing with the alt right thought process? And that's not
even addressed, I believe. I'm looking at photos right now
of the two of them together, Greg fifteen and his mom,
(12:39):
Gail Cleminger, And here they are, Uh, she's apparently taking
karate with him. Is that what that is he's got?
They both have on there. It looks like karate or
maybe te condo. The patch on Greg's arms his teaching assistant.
I'm looking at all these photos of the mom and
(13:02):
the sun together. There's a shot of River City Church,
one and a half miles away from the home where
her body was found buried in a fire pit behind
it with her foot protruding. Very important. I'm looking at
the book. In photo of the sun Um Gail Clevelands
(13:22):
Ha tried to fight back as she was being strangled.
There's cracked scratch marks across the Sun's face, under his
right eye and around his nose in the mug shot.
I'm looking at them all right now. Let me ask you,
Nicole Parton, what did the friends have to do with this?
Did he unless them to try to make it look
(13:42):
like a burglary? He did, two high school friends. He
calls them up after he killed her and says, look,
I need some help. They come over. They assist him
with getting rid of the body. They assist him with
taking items out of the house to make it look
like a burglary. And it's kind of odd to note.
After they bury her, they stop at the circle k
(14:03):
and grab a soda, then head back to the house
to stage the crime scene together. Okay, well, Nicole Parton,
please say that one more time. What did you say
about the circle k? After they get rid of the body,
bury the body at the fire pit at the church,
the boys stop at circle K to grab a soda.
They have a soda I don't know, maybe a snack too.
(14:24):
They head back to the house and then stage the
crime scene. Okay, Dr Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist, renowned forensic psychiatrists.
As a matter of fact, Penny Douglas for bleeding heart
defense lawyer out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. Okay, it's she.
You know, she wins all of her cases number one.
(14:45):
Now I know why she really believes it. Dctor Daniel Bober.
For just about thirty seconds, I was trying to focus
on what Penny Douglas fur was saying. Now that I
know this guy, this kid stops at the circle k
and kicks back for a slurpie after he buries his
mother's body. He yeah, no, Uh, he is not insane.
(15:08):
He does not have psychological problem. He's just main and
enlist the help of two other sociopaths to help in
stage the scene and make it look like a burglary. Uh.
You know, he may have problems, but they're more of
the personality variety. They're more of the antisocial variety. He's
clearly a kid who has very little empathy and cannot
(15:29):
have any remorse for other human beings. Are you saying
he's a sociopath or a psychopath And what's the difference, Well,
they both they both. They both are variations in the
same thing, which means that people have empty social traits.
They lie, they manipulate their conning. Uh, they don't have
empathy for others, and they sort of had this mock
of valiant way of leading their lives where they do
(15:52):
whatever they need to do and they don't care who
they have to step on in the process. Now I'm
looking at the two co defendants, not not codefendants in
the actual murder of his mom, Gail Clevinger, but of
staging the scene and disposing of the body. Joseph S.
Gott Morgan. This is crazy. Your son is about this age,
and I'm looking at the two co defendants. They just
(16:14):
look like normal teen kids. You'd never imagine they could
do something like this. I'm looking at him Greg, the son,
the teen boy, and all the happy shots that the
mom is posted. There's the mom um, there's the boy's father,
there is the I guess it's a stepdad. I'm not sure.
(16:38):
She had just called the boy's father to tell him
their son had made a d D as in delta
at school. And according to police, he was in motivated
by rage to kill his mother. Here he is Gregory
Ramos with the grandma, looking loving on the grandma. And
here is the mom, Gail and one of her professional sites.
(17:02):
Now interesting, Uh, she was absent from work the morning
that she was down. I'm looking at their home, nice,
big yard with trees all around it. The van, her
van was left running outside. My question to you, um,
Joe Scott, your son is this age. I bet all
of his friends look like they would never dream of
(17:22):
doing anything like this, just like these kids do. Yeah,
I'm just thinking, uh, you know who he would call
up in the event that he needed this kind of
help and who he would be aligning himself with that
without argument, without any compunction whatsoever, that they would just
you know, agree to go and yeah, yeah, sure, we'll
we'll go. Barry mom, your mom with you, you know,
(17:43):
the lady that's probably you know, I don't know, fixed
some sandwiches, you know, had him over, Maybe they had
sleepovers when they were younger, you know, all those sorts
of things. How do you how do you how does
this kid have these kinds of associates that would enter
into this kind of Confederate received with him to do this.
It absolutely blows my mind. And of course it's you know,
(18:06):
as with all these kinds of things, Uh, the police
via forensics as well as questioning these individuals are going
to be able to figure this out. These people are
not rocket scientists, you know. To Nicole parton Crime Online
dot Com Investigative Reporter, where you can find this and
all other crime and justice news. I'm looking at her postings,
(18:28):
Gail Clevelander's postings. Here she is with her husband, Danny Clevelander.
She's not a single mom. The bio dad is still
out there in his lot in the boy's life, and
the step dad here they are at the beach and
they're hugging each other with the beach in the background,
(18:49):
and she's put like the shiny stars, you know, super
imposed them all around them like they're in love. I'm
looking at their home. It's got a great yard, hard
for him to play with. Here he is with his grandma.
Here she is with the boy's dad and him at
some event. My point is Nicole, everything she posed and
(19:13):
everything we can find of them. They look so happy,
they do, and even the neighbors they're saying they moved
into that community about five years ago. The neighbors were
saying they were very kind, they were sweet, they never
heard arguments, nothing out of the way. The neighbors calling
them a very loving family. Take a listen to be
Lucia County Sheriff Mike Chipwood of what he tells us.
(19:34):
There's a lot of crimes. She has a lot of
different working on. There's autograph. I mean, a lot of
great defective workers, a lot of great police work. And
I think from the very beginning when the detectors got
on the scene and look at the physical evidence and
listen to the stories, even listen to nine one one
call things just didding that up, Just just didding that up.
People just don't walk in through a burglary, and you know,
(19:54):
and the story did that up. The woman never made
it to work this morning, so working when she was missing, say,
there was no way she could have driven. The window
treatments is one of those terms for something necessary but boring.
(20:14):
Your blinds, you don't even think about them unless you
move or they break. Well, when they're right, everything in
your home looks better. But when they're wrong, everything in
your home looks tacky. But let's be honest. Taking the
time and the effort to pick out and buy blind
sounds expensive, boring, and then think of installing them yourself.
(20:37):
Who wants to do that? But blinds dot Com makes
it really easy for you. I'm not sure what you
want or even where to start. With blinds dot Com,
you get a free online design consultation, send them pictures
of your home. They send back custom recommendations from a
professional for what will work with your color scheme, your furniture,
(20:58):
and your specific rooms. They even send you free samples
to make sure everything looks as good in person as
it does online. And every order gets free shipping. And
this is the best part. If you accidentally mismeasure or
pick the wrong color. If you mess it up, blinds
dot Com will remake your blinds for free. That's unusual.
(21:23):
Blinds dot Com makes it really easy for you. There's
no excuse to leave up mangled blinds to make your
whole home look cheap and tacky. Don't do it. Go
to blinds dot com and now, for a limited time,
get twenty off everything at blinds dot com when you
use promo code Nancy. Repeat off everything at blinds dot
(21:44):
com If you use the promo code Nancy. That's blinds
dot Com promo code Nancy for off Everything foe Wood Blinds,
Cellular shades, roller Shades, Everything Blinds dot Com promo Code
Nancy rules and restrictions do apply. Chilling details as a
(22:09):
teenage one is charged in the murder of his own mother,
accused of weaving a twisted plot to cover it up.
Police say it started Thursday night with a fight between
the teen and his mother, forty six year old Gail Clevelander,
over his grades, in particular at the that he received
in a certain subject. A very loud and boisterous and
contentious argument ensued his stepfather out of town when the
(22:32):
boy allegedly waited until midnight to choke cleveland Er to death,
later and listing the help of two friends to move
her body into a van and bury it in a
fire pit at a nearby church. You're hearing our friend
Ariel rus Chief at ABC News reporting on this is
it true? A teen boy strangled his mom, goes outside,
(22:53):
comes back in to find she's not dead. They continued
to choke her for the next thirty minutes. I Nancy
Grace this his crime stories. Thank you for being with
us Nicole parton Crime online dot Com investigative reporter. Is
that fact true that he goes outside, comes back in,
see she's not dead, and continues to choke her another
(23:15):
thirty minutes. If that's true, there's no way he can
argue uh crime of passion, you know, boiling blood or
anger he had. He did it for thirty minutes. That's correct, Nancy.
His story is that he thought she was dead after
strangling her for some time, he went outside to get
the wheelbarrow. He comes back in to find that she's
actually still alive, so he continues to strangle her again
(23:37):
for some thirty minutes until he's certain that she's dead. Well,
Penny Douglas Farr, there goes, You're a voluntary manslaughter plea
right down the crapper. Oh, absolutely, Nancy. But Nancy, think
about it. If you're a parent and you find out
that your child is associopath, what would you do? Most
parents would be so trauma to us. If I found
(23:59):
that out, I put him into treatment immediately to try
to save his life. But I don't have any evidence
that Gail knew her son had any issues, and I
don't know that he's a sociopath to Kathleen Murphy, North
Carolina lawyer before I start slinging around psychiatric words, especially
while Dr Daniel Bober's listening to me do it and
mangle his studies. Kathleen Murphy, what have you learned about
(24:21):
this kid? This child was fundamentally unmonitored his whole life
and unchallenged. And if you look into his Facebook page,
you'll see a Keck emblem behind his profile picture and
looking up Kakistan, it was an imaginary world that was
(24:43):
created on four Chan. Now, my fifteen year old was
on four champ, and my fifteen year old wasn't a
right type of environment where hate language is spute, I
think I would know about it. So what I'm led
to believe is that this child pretty much did what
he wanted to do when he wanted to do it,
and got indeed. So bottom line, what you're telling me is,
(25:04):
in addition to Republicans and Democrats, there is a Kakistan
with its very own flag. No, Kakistan is mostly a
joke sort of. It grew on the internet on four
chans political message board, and that is a real um.
Let me just say haven for um internet trolls. It
(25:33):
has the most taboo comments possible there and um it
has morphed into a location online where fringe groups joined in,
and it really came out a kick k E K
(25:54):
really came out of the World of Warcraft's chat system.
That's where it came from. And then it and have
wormed its way into our vernacular online as a replacement
for laugh out Loud l O L. Kick. So what
do you know about kick, Kathleen Murphy, why it's so
disturbing This boy was part of kick. I think the
(26:14):
whole Kakastan movement has been, if you will, adopted by
the alt right conservative movement, and in fact, the Southern
Poverty Law Center has it on a hate watch UM monitoring.
I guess you could say list. And it's concerning to
me that this is what the fifteen year old was reading,
(26:35):
looking at, examining, and identifying with yesterday with my twelve
year olds on you made punk apples with all of
his friends. And I think when a parent comes in
to parenthood and they're doing it all by themselves for
so many years, and she doesn't have the support of
a male in the home with the sun, it's very difficult.
It is very difficult. Doesn't her husband live with them?
(26:57):
That is the stepfather, and I think they were recently
married with a last few years. The father of this
child is not in the picture. He lives in another state. Okay,
I wanna go into this kick K E K with
Dr Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist. I'm learning that kick that
Greg Ramos was involved with was actually an ancient Egyptian god, Okay,
(27:22):
god with a little g and was often depicted with
a head of a frog. I don't know that I
want my son, you know, or my daughter embroiled an
ancient Egyptian demigoggs. But it is mostly an innocent cartoon character,
but it was then turn into a hate Symbolay, so
(27:42):
tell me what you know about this and why it's
so telling this boy was part of that. I don't
I don't know a lot about it specifically, but I
can tell you what I do know, which is as
a child psychiatrist, I see parents bringing their kids into
my office all the time, and a lot of these
kids will have online personas that their parents are not
even aware of. So, you know, you can try to
be a good parent. You can try to keep track
(28:04):
of your kids but there is a whole another world
in cyberspace that they're on. Is you really have to
work hard. Even law enforcements sometimes can't even find online
personas that people have, So as a parent, it's very
challenging to really be on top of all the details
to know what kids are doing when they go to school,
and whose smartphones they're using, and whose computers they're on
when they're not at your home. But I tell parents
(28:26):
this all the time. It's very important to keep that
computer in a common area and not when they're in
their room with the door closed, because they're in another
world and they shouldn't be there. Well, let me tell
you this what John David, my beloved, my perfect little
boy used as his handle angry three g I, a
angry third writer said that's actually cute. I said to David,
(28:49):
whre you so angry? And goes but angry Mom and angry,
And I'm like, why are you angry? He said, because
some days we don't get the full thirty minutes on
the playground. Mom, That's why he's angry. I cannot tell
you how relieved I was to find out why he
was angry. So I'm always sneaking up on them to
find out what they're doing online. Every time I sneak
(29:10):
up with my daughter, she's either looking at yet another
cat video, which is disturbing in its own own right,
but some kind of facial something you make at home
to put on your face. She just turned eleven, okay,
but in our culture, she's always like already like putting
all these beauty lotions that she makes out of, all
(29:32):
sorts of things out of the fridge onto her face.
Let me just say, and she would kill me if
if you know the instant tan lotion, so she read
online you can mix cocoa powder with lotion. She makes
it with a vino and rubbed it all over herself, okay,
to get an instant tan. I told her how absolutely
(29:52):
gorgeous she looked. Of course, Uh okay, I'm digressing. What
I'm talking about is this kid going online on his
Facebook all sorts of hate inspired motifs. What does it mean?
I'm not sure, but I know this. Cops say he
murdered his mother very calmly, very calculatedly. Listen. Rage rage.
(30:18):
Apparently there was a dispute about March with his mother
um and in her an argument occurred. It around eleven
o'clock or so, and around twelve thirty he went into
her room and woke her up and began trying to
learn strangle the until he killed and then he had
to do something with the body. So here he put
the body in the back of his mother's car, drove
(30:39):
to Daytona and and Holly Hillary, where he was going
to dispose of the body, thought better of it, came
back home that shovel, got everything he needed, drove one
five miles down the road to the church. Uh doug
ahol time depositive mother in it, covered it up maybe
crime scene like a burglary had occurred, uh, and then
went to school, left school early when she's worth still
(31:02):
he began to fall apart and then got home and
made his uh in his own words, a Grammy winning
phone call to talk about this horrible incident. It did
not really occur. Neighbors tell me that deeply religious woman
was extremely supportive of her fifteen year old son, Gregory Ramos,
who is now accused of Stranglinger in their Alexans at home,
(31:23):
and then listening to two of his friends, Dylan said
Cleric and Brian Porters to help cover it go was
a sweetheart. She was very very kind person. When Hecke
tells me the family moved to this to Burry neighborhood
five years ago, she says they all got along well
with the family, and she would drive Ramos and her
son to University High School. Ramos was also a member
of the Orange City Please Explorers program. He was always
polite to me, and they always thanked me and say,
(31:45):
you know, thank you for the Ryan home. Neighbors tell
me Clevelander was involved in martial arts and she also
worked as an architect at a firm in Orlando. She
started there just three weeks ago. A company tells me
she was a hard worker and spoke highly of her
son and step children. They tell me they are heartbroken
by this loss. Cannot understand it either. You're hearing from
our friends Greg Wurmer at w f TV TV Channel
(32:05):
nine and speaking to Gil Clelinger's neighbors, and we learned
that this boy, Greg Ramos, who now is charged in
the murder of his mother, was a police explorer in
the Explorer group. You know, Dr Daniel Bober. It sounds
like this kid. If if Kathleen Murphy had not gone
online and found his Facebook and all the implications of that.
(32:29):
He seems like an outwardly great kid. And it says
a lot to me that the mother was upset that
he made a D, which means she cares. Well, you know,
I don't really think this is about him getting a D.
Obviously they were much deeper problems. But it just shows how,
you know, people can sort of compartmentalize their lives and
be living this completely other life and others aren't aware
of it. Is it true, Nicole Partner? The sheriff says
(32:51):
that the boy was quote proud of his work. What
do you know, Nicole? That's right. As part of his confession,
Gregory says he was very proud of his work, telling
the sheriff that he thought he deserved a Grammy for
his He also stated that when he made that I'm
on one call, he used what he had learned in
criminal justice classes to give quote the flavor of truth
(33:16):
to his lies. Penny Douglas Firm, veteran defense attorney. What
do you do with that? That he used what he
learned in his criminal justice classes to quote give a
flavor of truth to his lies. That's a typical thing
of sociopaths. I hate to say that, but that's typical
(33:36):
of what they do. They'll take a little bit of
truth and twisted. And that's the sad thing I've litigated
against sociopaths. It is a nightmare. And if you know,
the child of sociopathy needs to be in treatment immediately.
I don't know what signs of mother miss but this
child should have been in treatment long ago. Oh, you're
back on the mom. You're back on the mom. The
(33:58):
signs the mother? Men? You know what Joe's goot Morgan,
Joseph Scott, Morgan, you're the forensics expert. Explain how this
attack went down. I don't think the mom missed anything.
This kid is super intelligent. Yeah, he's Uh, he's apparently
waited until until the wee hours. Maybe she's gone to bed.
Remember we heard that she had contacted the stepfather after
(34:21):
she had confronted this kid. He's stewing over this thing,
sitting around thinking about it. Wait until she goes to bed. Now.
One of the articles that I read, Nancy stated that
he not just strangled her, he throttled her. And if
the listeners will essentially take their hands and put their
thumbs together, uh, lame flat and formed kind of a
you with your hands. That gives you an idea of
(34:43):
what the formation of his hands would look like, the
attitude that would be in as he wrapped him around
this mother's neck and then began to squeeze. I find
it interesting that they talked about how long this took,
said it took up to thirty minutes. Uh. A lot
of this is dependent upon hand pressure, how much hand
pressure he can exert over her throat. There will be
(35:04):
a struggle at the scene. You noted quite accurately a
few months ago. He's gotten marks on his face when
they exhumed her body out of this fire pit. Uh.
They're going to do at the morgue. They will do
nail scrapings on her and you'll be able to find
probably his skin beneath her fingernails. Uh. And Uh, probably
(35:25):
much of his DNA on her if it hasn't been
completely disrupted. Very very troubling, very troubling. Yeah, we keep
throwing around the term sociopath. Dr Daniel Bober forensic psychiatrists.
Sociopath does not mean insanity. We do know police say
he had no remorse, that he is super intelligent, and
(35:45):
not only that that he was quote proud of his work.
What does that mean? And what is a sociopath? That
is correct, Nancy, sociopath does not equal the insanity defense.
Sociopaths don't know the difference, do not necessarily know the
difference between right and wrong. Even though that was a
double negative. The point is is that you could be
a sociopath. You can plan, you can organize, you can
attempt to conceal um, you can lie, you can manipulate,
(36:08):
And so just because you're a sociopath doesn't absolve you
of responsibility. Uh. And in fact, it makes you quite
adept at committing crime and trying to conceal it. Kathleen Murphy,
North Carolina family lawyer, will he be charged as an adult?
I believe he will be charged as an adult, as
he rightly should be charged as an adult. This is
an intentional throttle, as Joe said, murder of his mother
(36:33):
planned with four thoughts. Well, we also know, uh to
Joe's got Morgan, speaking of forensics, that the mom was
first attack in her own bed after midnight, so clearly
he waited for her to be asleep. This teen boy
spent over half an hour throttling his mom dad with
his bare hands as she fought for her life. This
(36:56):
was all over a d as in delta gray and
and unfolded in court where this boy was denied bail
and remains in custody. There are the seven Deadly's the
d f as designated felonies for which a minor will
be quote bound over to adult felony court. Murder is
(37:20):
one of them, along with rape, aggravated sodomy, armed robbery, arson.
Let's see what are the other two. Any lawyer on
the panel can tell me the other two. But long
story short, Penny, Douglas fur he's gonna be bound over.
He will be tried as an adult. I can guarantee
you that, Nancy. The only thing that fifteen Big fifteen
(37:42):
will help him with is he will not get the
death penalty, which he could get in Florida for this
type of crime. But I do not think they'll give
the death penalty to a fifteen year old. Well, they
can't under the Supreme Court ruling about four or five
years ago, no one under the age of eighteen in
our country can be a sentence to death penalty. But
explain the bind over process, Penny. How will it be
(38:03):
determined if he will be treated as an adult. Well,
as you just said, it's one of the seven deadly sins,
so that will definitely send him over. And it's murder.
And not only is it murder, but he went back
and found her alive and then killed her again, so
he thought about it and went back and did it again.
So absolutely he's dangerous. He will be moved over to
(38:25):
adult court to be tried as an adult for murder,
and he will most likely get life in prison. I
thought of the seven deadlies. They are agassault, arson, aggravated battery,
which means you lose a limb or a body part
or your eye, your arm during an agg assault, robbery,
armed robbery, um, kidnap, murder, Do I do I get seven? Jackie? Okay?
(38:52):
I got all seven. Those are the typical designated felonies
for which a child or eighteen will be bound, owned
over and treated as an adult. Police in this case
say that Gregory Logan Ramos is one of the top
three sociopaths they have ever encountered. They are assuming the
(39:14):
worst for my son. So they went in there, they
all got out, but he didn't come out, so they
say that he was where they left he went to
the bar to get the drinks for everybody, and that's
when they heard the shocks ringing out and oh, panic,
have you gone to the hospital. We did call the hospital.
(39:34):
They don't. They're going through their crazy triage right now,
so they don't have any names or anybody that they
They don't want to talk yet. So I haven't been
over there, asked my next step is to go there yet?
What did they tell you here? They just take your
information and tell you to wait. How is that a
A dad? Like I said, I'm pretty emotional. Tell me
(39:58):
about Cogan rooms I do pretty's personality awesome. Um, we're
very Christian raised family and everything. That's he's a very
good kid. You know, he's very good in school. He's
very sports oriented. Uh was going into the army. So
we're gonna have to wait and see at the ending
of the situation. You're answer that, please answer, that's okay.
(40:20):
I'm like, if you get word I want. If he's
going to the arm You talked about these most shootings
that you've been seeing. We've ever talked a lot about things. Yeah,
that's why I'm very Uh, I'm curious right now. And
you know, raising him the way, we raised some white
house and if you picked up a cell phone, anybody's
cell phone, and he was called home. So I don't
(40:44):
understand where where we're at this point. I'm actually I'm very,
very in shock. At this hour, we now know the
list of victims that were massacred in the Borderline shooting.
You were just hearing Jason Kaufman, who we heard those
(41:05):
heart broken words yesterday. He was desperately searching for his son, Cody,
who had been inside the Borderline bar. Now we know
that Cody is one of the casualties. From Coeds to
law enforcement to military, twelve gunned down. As we look
(41:26):
for answers today to Alan Duke joining me from l A,
what do we know about the shooter? We have his
last Facebook post and it is like none other than
any we've ever seen from someone who commits a massacre.
And what did he mean by this? I think it's
(41:47):
going to take a psychologist to tell us. He says, quote,
I hope people call me insane, and then he posted
laughing emojis. Wouldn't that just be a big ball of irony? Yeah,
I'm insane. But the only thing you p people do
after the shootings is quote hopes and prayers or quote
keep your keep you in my thoughts every time and
wonder why these keep happening. That's what Ian David Long
(42:13):
wrote just before killing twelve people. You know what that
that It just turns my stomach over to hear the
shooters last fakes book post. We now know who was
massacred in the Borderline bar shooting. First of all, Cody Kaufman.
You were just hearing his father, Jason, wondering was he alive?
(42:34):
Was he dead? His friends came out, but they couldn't
find Cody. The distraught dad rushed to the bar after
hearing these of the shooting, and calls to his son's
cell phone were not answered. Jason had been using a
tracking app on his son's phone, and it indicated the
cell phone was still on. Of course. Sergeant Ron Helis,
(42:55):
Venturi County Sheriff, Sergeant Ron Heelis leaves behind a son
and I'm wife. He was one of the first on
the scene at the shooting. He raced in to save others.
The last thing he said to his wife, Hannah, I
gotta go. I love you, I gotta go on a call.
Elena Houseley, the niece of actress Tamara Moray Houseley and
(43:15):
her husband Adam also died. Her sweet mate at Pepperdine
earlier posted photos on Twitter saying that she was missing.
Her Apple watch and phone appeared still show her location
as in the bar. She was there with friends. All
of them were accounted for. Justin meek Idd is one
of the victims by his family. He was a twenty
(43:38):
three year old recent grad of California Lutheran University, and
he worked there and organized the college night. He is
believed to have heroically saved lives as the shooting unfolded,
according to the university president Chris Kimball. Sean Adler, forty eight,
was a bouncer at Borderline Bar and Grill. He was
(43:59):
a wrestling coach who had just opened a coffee shop
his dream in the local area. Noel Sparks, a twenty
one year old student at Moore Park, was also confirmed
dead this United Methodist Church in Westlake Village. She was
a member of their posting condolences friends breaking down in
tears as they desperately searched for her after the shooting.
(44:22):
Blake Dingman, just twenty one, identified by his girlfriend as
a victim. My sweet Blake, my heart is hurting more
than words can say, she writes. Telemachus or Fanos, Borderline employee,
confirmed dead. An Eagle scout who served in the Navy.
(44:43):
He survived Route ninety one Harvest festival shooting in Las
Vegas where fifty eight died, and now he's dead. Christina
Kelley Morris set was a cashier at Borderline. She died
in the shooting. She went to Simi Valley High School
and she's absolute beautiful with a big smile and cowboy
boots just like mine. Danielle Manrique thirty three and Marine
(45:07):
Vett spent his whole life helping veterans, readjust his civilian life,
and just got a position with Team r WB. We're
looking at so many of the victims and so many
hearts are broken. To Alan Deep joining us from l
A Alan, It's almost incomprehensible that some of these victims
(45:29):
had survived the shooting at the Mandalais. That is one
of the I'm not even gonna say irony. That doesn't
do it justice. These were country music fans and they
were there at the Root ninety one festival, which in
Las Vegas, where so many people were injured and killed
and for them to be in this shooting, what kind
of odds are that? Well, unfortunately, the odds apparently are
(45:51):
pretty good that you're going to be involved in some
kind of a shooting. It's crazy, joining me, Wendy Patcheck,
California Prosecutor. When you look at this guy's last post,
it's almost as if he knew what was going to
unfold after you know, Nancy, it is, and it's almost
as if, and I find this this very interesting, he
set himself up for a mental defense that he never
(46:11):
had the opportunity to avail himself of because apparently he
committed suicide. It's almost as if he was using his
scenario as a warning to others that unless you give
mental health victims the treatment they need, if they can
overcome the stigma and admit they have a problem, we're
going to see even more of these. But the sinister
nature of it, Nancy, that is just chilling, and would
(46:33):
have been in front of a jury were this man
to have survived, Well, he may have mocked it, and
he may have made light of it, but nothing is
stronger than the power of prayer, and that is what
we are doing today for the victims and their families.
Twelve dead at the Borderline bar. Nancy Grace Crime Stories
(46:53):
signing off goodbye
Do you know another parent or expecting parent. Are you
wondering what can I give them as a gift. Don't
give them another onesie, don't give them a plastic toy
or god forbid, a toy gun that's just gonna end
up in the garage. Give them something that matters, and
what matters the most is protecting their child. What do
(00:20):
you love most in the world Your children? What will
you do to protect them anything. I sat down with
these smartest people I know in the world on matters
of child's safety, finding missing children, fighting back against predators,
and what I learned is so important, powerful and information
(00:40):
so critical. I want you to have it. I want
them to have it. Go to crime stops here dot
com for a five part series with action information that
you can use to change your life and protect your child.
Payments starting six. Give that as a gift, not an
other one. Find out how to protect your child when
(01:03):
you're out of the mall or the store, or the grocery,
in the parking lot at home. Find out about protection
regarding babysitters, in daycare, even online. I'd rather have that
any day of the week than a plastic toy our
God forbid a toy gun. Join Justice Nation, go to
(01:23):
crime Stops here dot com. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
This morning we were called out here Ali Conte in
reference to a fifteen year old had come home from school. Uh.
(01:46):
His front door was kicked in, her side door was
kicked in, the house was ransacked. His mother's car was
in the driveway and the engine was running, and hence
the investigation began. And as the investigation began, it became
quite apparent that this was not an act of random violence,
that in fact, a fifteen year old probably had killed
his mother sometime last night, and after some great detective work,
(02:12):
in great police work, we were able to charge or
actuallyssary in the process of charging her fifteen year old
son was strangling her to death sometime after midnight into
Friday morning. Uh. He then took the body to a
nearby church where he buried underneath of the fire pit.
(02:32):
Came back to the house, staged a burglary, got some
of his friends to get involved to get the electronics
and a gun that was stolen. I Nancy Grace, this
is Crime Stories, Thank you for being with us. Did
a schoolboy strangle his architect mom dad and then bury
her body under a church fire pit, begging his friends
(02:54):
to make it all look like a burglary. And it's
all over a bad grade at school. I can hardly
take it in. I'm gonna tell you, it's making me
rethink every time I picked the twins up at school
and go, hey, how'd you do on your social studies test? Yeah?
If you make an A? Is that too much stress?
What have I lost my mind? It's not her fault.
(03:18):
The kid made a d and she fussed at him,
and he murdered her. You know what, Let me get
the facts first to Nicole parton Crime online dot Com
investigative reporter who we were just hearing as the Volucia
County Sheriff Mike Chitwood describing the investigation to the death
of a lovely young mom, Gail cleveland Er. Nicole uh
(03:41):
intimately familiar with the facts. Start at the beginning, Nicole,
what happened from fifteen year old Gregory? He later says
he deserves the Grammy for that call. He says he
came home from school, his mother is missing. The home
has been ramsacked, their items that are missing, The front
door has kicked in, her car is running in the driveway,
(04:03):
and he says she's not there and he doesn't know
what's happened. I can hardly take it in uh. Nicole
parton Joining Me Crime online dot Com investigative reporter, Nicole,
how did it all start? Tell me about what police
find when they get there? Nancy Sheriff Chitwood, calling this
one of the saddest, most disturbing cases of his career.
(04:25):
And you're right, it all starts over a bad grade.
Approximately eleven pm at night, Gale and her fifteen year
old son get into a discussion about this bad grade.
He storms off into his bedroom typical fifteen year old behavior,
I'm assuming, slams the door. But then around midnight, he
comes out of the bedroom, goes into his mother's bedroom
where she's sleeping, wakes her up, and begins to strangle her.
(04:48):
Joining me is Nicole Parton Crime online dot Com investigative
reporter renew family lawyer out of North Carolina, Kathleen Murphy, Dr.
Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist, and boy, do we need a shrink?
Also with me Penny Douglas for trial lawyer of the
Atlanta Jurisdiction and also joining me, death investigator Joseph Scott Morgan,
(05:11):
professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University and author of
a new book, Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. Okay,
I want to figure out the scene. We we don't
know what happened to Joe Scott Morrigan explained to me
what we are looking at crime evidence wise? What are
(05:32):
the c s I looking for? Well, I think the
biggest the watchword here, Nancy is consistency. Uh what is
it that is being uh seen observable by the law
enforcement officers upon rival. We've got evidence that, according to
what is being said, that a door has been kicked in,
(05:53):
that the area throughout the house has been ransacked. That
gives us the initial impression at least, uh that there
may be a property crime go gone wrong. And one
of the more interesting things is that her vehicle was
found a van outside of the home and according to
(06:13):
this young man, the vehicle was found running. So this
all initially at least gives the police an idea that
maybe this is a break in gone bad. After speaking
to neighbors there in DeBerry, Florida, they say that yo Clevelander,
uh deeply religious, very well educated at an architect, Mom
(06:36):
and was extremely supportive of her son, extremely supportive of him.
And it's hard for me to take in that a
a child, he's still a miner, would kill his own mother. Uh.
To Dr Daniel bober forensic psychiatrists, patricide or killing him
(06:57):
a parent is very very rare, especially matricide killing of
the mother. Why is that so rare? Dr Bober Well, Nancy,
I mean it has to do with the attachment that
you know a child has with their mother. It's just
a very rare event. But remember something. You know, this
(07:19):
is a fifteen year old kid, and a lot of
times when fifteen year old to do things, they're very impulsive.
But the fact that he waited, there was a delay,
and then he strangled her, and then he staged the
scene to make it look like a burglary. I mean
that comes from a very different place. This was not
uh an impulsive act. This was very cold and it
was very calculated. Take a listen to Milusia County Sheriff
(07:41):
Mike Chitwood answering questions rage. Apparently there was a dispute
about March with his mother um and in her an argument.
OC heard it around eleven o'clock or so and a
run twelve thirty. He went into her room and woke
her up and began strangling, strangled until he killed. And
(08:01):
then he had to do something with the body. So
he he put the body in the back of his
mother's call, drove to Daytona and and Ally Hillarry where
he was going to dispose of the body, thought better
of it, came back home, got shovel, got everything he needed,
drove one five miles down the road to the church. Uh,
Doug depositive mother in it, covered it up. Maybe trime
(08:25):
scene look like a burglary had occurred, uh, and then
went to school, left school early, which is where still
he began to fall apart, and then got home and
made his uh, in his own words, a Grammy winning
phone call to talk about this horrible incident. It did
not really occur to Penny Douglas Fur joining me Atlanta
(08:50):
defense lawyer, Penny Douglas Fur, if you have to handle
this case for the defense, what are you going to say?
He's just really a misunderstood boy. There obviously some psychological
issues there. I would first have him examined because kids
don't get bad grades because they want to get bad
grades and I don't know what the mother said to him,
(09:11):
but whatever it was, it pushed him over the edge.
We need to know what else happened, what led up
to this, Did he have bad grades before this, and
what were they doing to try and fix it. It
sounds like his mother's well educated and if her child
is getting bad grades, she would get somebody to work
with him and somebody to help him. So I'm trying
(09:33):
to find out. I would first try to find out
where all of this came from and how long this
had been happening. Of course, Penny Douglas for the Consummate
defense attorney says, I'd like to find out what the
mom said that made him do this. You know what,
the more victim blaming, Kathleen, But I get a penny.
(09:57):
That's what you do for a living, not judging, not
not better, excuse me not judging to Kathleen Murphy, North
Carolina lawyer, you have a very different take on this kid.
I absolutely have a different take on this child. I
have a take on the status of this child's relationship
(10:18):
with both of his parents. I have an opinion that
this child was manipulating his mother throughout his life. The
father was away on a business trick. You got back tonight. Um,
so you know there's a lot of there's a lot
of heartache, and that finally you know, not only do
(10:40):
you have a son killers her mother, but you have
the father who was away and you know he comes back,
he lands. The next thing he knows the police. You
have taken him into the police district to talk about
your wife is missing. Oh my stars, can you imagine
you get back in town, your house is ransacked and
your wife, your your spouse is missing. We're talking about
out a lovely young mother, Gil Clevelander, an educated woman
(11:04):
who was very supportive of her son, Greg, aged fifteen.
Oh my stars, Oh my stars. And to get that news.
I'm easy, Grace, this is crime Stories. Thank you for
being with us. Now, Penny Douglas for Atlanta veteran defense
attorney says, oh, well, clearly the boy, the little boy
(11:29):
has a psychological problem. And I wonder what the mom said,
what Gail Clevanger said to make him do this? All right,
I can't say I expected anything different, But Kathleen, not judging,
not judging, Penny joining right now, Kathleen Murphy, North Carolina lawyer,
Let's just say She's not as sympathetic to Gregory absolutely
(11:52):
as Penny Douglas. Fur is Kathleen Murphy. What have you learned?
I've learned that this child was manipulating, in my opinion,
his mother all of his life because he has the
ability to man up to her. There was not a
father figure in this child's life. And this child has
a presence online that is also somewhat disturbing. So if
(12:16):
his mother is concerned about a D on his report
card and approaches him about it, she should really be concerned.
What is he doing on four Chan? What is he
doing with the alt right thought process? And that's not
even addressed, I believe. I'm looking at photos right now
of the two of them together, Greg fifteen and his mom,
(12:39):
Gail Cleminger, And here they are, Uh, she's apparently taking
karate with him. Is that what that is he's got?
They both have on there. It looks like karate or
maybe te condo. The patch on Greg's arms his teaching assistant.
I'm looking at all these photos of the mom and
(13:02):
the sun together. There's a shot of River City Church,
one and a half miles away from the home where
her body was found buried in a fire pit behind
it with her foot protruding. Very important. I'm looking at
the book. In photo of the sun Um Gail Clevelands
(13:22):
Ha tried to fight back as she was being strangled.
There's cracked scratch marks across the Sun's face, under his
right eye and around his nose in the mug shot.
I'm looking at them all right now. Let me ask you,
Nicole Parton, what did the friends have to do with this?
Did he unless them to try to make it look
(13:42):
like a burglary? He did, two high school friends. He
calls them up after he killed her and says, look,
I need some help. They come over. They assist him
with getting rid of the body. They assist him with
taking items out of the house to make it look
like a burglary. And it's kind of odd to note.
After they bury her, they stop at the circle k
(14:03):
and grab a soda, then head back to the house
to stage the crime scene together. Okay, well, Nicole Parton,
please say that one more time. What did you say
about the circle k? After they get rid of the body,
bury the body at the fire pit at the church,
the boys stop at circle K to grab a soda.
They have a soda I don't know, maybe a snack too.
(14:24):
They head back to the house and then stage the
crime scene. Okay, Dr Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist, renowned forensic psychiatrists.
As a matter of fact, Penny Douglas for bleeding heart
defense lawyer out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. Okay, it's she.
You know, she wins all of her cases number one.
(14:45):
Now I know why she really believes it. Dctor Daniel Bober.
For just about thirty seconds, I was trying to focus
on what Penny Douglas fur was saying. Now that I
know this guy, this kid stops at the circle k
and kicks back for a slurpie after he buries his
mother's body. He yeah, no, Uh, he is not insane.
(15:08):
He does not have psychological problem. He's just main and
enlist the help of two other sociopaths to help in
stage the scene and make it look like a burglary. Uh.
You know, he may have problems, but they're more of
the personality variety. They're more of the antisocial variety. He's
clearly a kid who has very little empathy and cannot
(15:29):
have any remorse for other human beings. Are you saying
he's a sociopath or a psychopath And what's the difference, Well,
they both they both. They both are variations in the
same thing, which means that people have empty social traits.
They lie, they manipulate their conning. Uh, they don't have
empathy for others, and they sort of had this mock
of valiant way of leading their lives where they do
(15:52):
whatever they need to do and they don't care who
they have to step on in the process. Now I'm
looking at the two co defendants, not not codefendants in
the actual murder of his mom, Gail Clevinger, but of
staging the scene and disposing of the body. Joseph S.
Gott Morgan. This is crazy. Your son is about this age,
and I'm looking at the two co defendants. They just
(16:14):
look like normal teen kids. You'd never imagine they could
do something like this. I'm looking at him Greg, the son,
the teen boy, and all the happy shots that the
mom is posted. There's the mom um, there's the boy's father,
there is the I guess it's a stepdad. I'm not sure.
(16:38):
She had just called the boy's father to tell him
their son had made a d D as in delta
at school. And according to police, he was in motivated
by rage to kill his mother. Here he is Gregory
Ramos with the grandma, looking loving on the grandma. And
here is the mom, Gail and one of her professional sites.
(17:02):
Now interesting, Uh, she was absent from work the morning
that she was down. I'm looking at their home, nice,
big yard with trees all around it. The van, her
van was left running outside. My question to you, um,
Joe Scott, your son is this age. I bet all
of his friends look like they would never dream of
(17:22):
doing anything like this, just like these kids do. Yeah,
I'm just thinking, uh, you know who he would call
up in the event that he needed this kind of
help and who he would be aligning himself with that
without argument, without any compunction whatsoever, that they would just
you know, agree to go and yeah, yeah, sure, we'll
we'll go. Barry mom, your mom with you, you know,
(17:43):
the lady that's probably you know, I don't know, fixed
some sandwiches, you know, had him over, Maybe they had
sleepovers when they were younger, you know, all those sorts
of things. How do you how do you how does
this kid have these kinds of associates that would enter
into this kind of Confederate received with him to do this.
It absolutely blows my mind. And of course it's you know,
(18:06):
as with all these kinds of things, Uh, the police
via forensics as well as questioning these individuals are going
to be able to figure this out. These people are
not rocket scientists, you know. To Nicole parton Crime Online
dot Com Investigative Reporter, where you can find this and
all other crime and justice news. I'm looking at her postings,
(18:28):
Gail Clevelander's postings. Here she is with her husband, Danny Clevelander.
She's not a single mom. The bio dad is still
out there in his lot in the boy's life, and
the step dad here they are at the beach and
they're hugging each other with the beach in the background,
(18:49):
and she's put like the shiny stars, you know, super
imposed them all around them like they're in love. I'm
looking at their home. It's got a great yard, hard
for him to play with. Here he is with his grandma.
Here she is with the boy's dad and him at
some event. My point is Nicole, everything she posed and
(19:13):
everything we can find of them. They look so happy,
they do, and even the neighbors they're saying they moved
into that community about five years ago. The neighbors were
saying they were very kind, they were sweet, they never
heard arguments, nothing out of the way. The neighbors calling
them a very loving family. Take a listen to be
Lucia County Sheriff Mike Chipwood of what he tells us.
(19:34):
There's a lot of crimes. She has a lot of
different working on. There's autograph. I mean, a lot of
great defective workers, a lot of great police work. And
I think from the very beginning when the detectors got
on the scene and look at the physical evidence and
listen to the stories, even listen to nine one one
call things just didding that up, Just just didding that up.
People just don't walk in through a burglary, and you know,
(19:54):
and the story did that up. The woman never made
it to work this morning, so working when she was missing, say,
there was no way she could have driven. The window
treatments is one of those terms for something necessary but boring.
(20:14):
Your blinds, you don't even think about them unless you
move or they break. Well, when they're right, everything in
your home looks better. But when they're wrong, everything in
your home looks tacky. But let's be honest. Taking the
time and the effort to pick out and buy blind
sounds expensive, boring, and then think of installing them yourself.
(20:37):
Who wants to do that? But blinds dot Com makes
it really easy for you. I'm not sure what you
want or even where to start. With blinds dot Com,
you get a free online design consultation, send them pictures
of your home. They send back custom recommendations from a
professional for what will work with your color scheme, your furniture,
(20:58):
and your specific rooms. They even send you free samples
to make sure everything looks as good in person as
it does online. And every order gets free shipping. And
this is the best part. If you accidentally mismeasure or
pick the wrong color. If you mess it up, blinds
dot Com will remake your blinds for free. That's unusual.
(21:23):
Blinds dot Com makes it really easy for you. There's
no excuse to leave up mangled blinds to make your
whole home look cheap and tacky. Don't do it. Go
to blinds dot com and now, for a limited time,
get twenty off everything at blinds dot com when you
use promo code Nancy. Repeat off everything at blinds dot
(21:44):
com If you use the promo code Nancy. That's blinds
dot Com promo code Nancy for off Everything foe Wood Blinds,
Cellular shades, roller Shades, Everything Blinds dot Com promo Code
Nancy rules and restrictions do apply. Chilling details as a
(22:09):
teenage one is charged in the murder of his own mother,
accused of weaving a twisted plot to cover it up.
Police say it started Thursday night with a fight between
the teen and his mother, forty six year old Gail Clevelander,
over his grades, in particular at the that he received
in a certain subject. A very loud and boisterous and
contentious argument ensued his stepfather out of town when the
(22:32):
boy allegedly waited until midnight to choke cleveland Er to death,
later and listing the help of two friends to move
her body into a van and bury it in a
fire pit at a nearby church. You're hearing our friend
Ariel rus Chief at ABC News reporting on this is
it true? A teen boy strangled his mom, goes outside,
(22:53):
comes back in to find she's not dead. They continued
to choke her for the next thirty minutes. I Nancy
Grace this his crime stories. Thank you for being with
us Nicole parton Crime online dot Com investigative reporter. Is
that fact true that he goes outside, comes back in,
see she's not dead, and continues to choke her another
(23:15):
thirty minutes. If that's true, there's no way he can
argue uh crime of passion, you know, boiling blood or
anger he had. He did it for thirty minutes. That's correct, Nancy.
His story is that he thought she was dead after
strangling her for some time, he went outside to get
the wheelbarrow. He comes back in to find that she's
actually still alive, so he continues to strangle her again
(23:37):
for some thirty minutes until he's certain that she's dead. Well,
Penny Douglas Farr, there goes, You're a voluntary manslaughter plea
right down the crapper. Oh, absolutely, Nancy. But Nancy, think
about it. If you're a parent and you find out
that your child is associopath, what would you do? Most
parents would be so trauma to us. If I found
(23:59):
that out, I put him into treatment immediately to try
to save his life. But I don't have any evidence
that Gail knew her son had any issues, and I
don't know that he's a sociopath to Kathleen Murphy, North
Carolina lawyer before I start slinging around psychiatric words, especially
while Dr Daniel Bober's listening to me do it and
mangle his studies. Kathleen Murphy, what have you learned about
(24:21):
this kid? This child was fundamentally unmonitored his whole life
and unchallenged. And if you look into his Facebook page,
you'll see a Keck emblem behind his profile picture and
looking up Kakistan, it was an imaginary world that was
(24:43):
created on four Chan. Now, my fifteen year old was
on four champ, and my fifteen year old wasn't a
right type of environment where hate language is spute, I
think I would know about it. So what I'm led
to believe is that this child pretty much did what
he wanted to do when he wanted to do it,
and got indeed. So bottom line, what you're telling me is,
(25:04):
in addition to Republicans and Democrats, there is a Kakistan
with its very own flag. No, Kakistan is mostly a
joke sort of. It grew on the internet on four
chans political message board, and that is a real um.
Let me just say haven for um internet trolls. It
(25:33):
has the most taboo comments possible there and um it
has morphed into a location online where fringe groups joined in,
and it really came out a kick k E K
(25:54):
really came out of the World of Warcraft's chat system.
That's where it came from. And then it and have
wormed its way into our vernacular online as a replacement
for laugh out Loud l O L. Kick. So what
do you know about kick, Kathleen Murphy, why it's so
disturbing This boy was part of kick. I think the
(26:14):
whole Kakastan movement has been, if you will, adopted by
the alt right conservative movement, and in fact, the Southern
Poverty Law Center has it on a hate watch UM monitoring.
I guess you could say list. And it's concerning to
me that this is what the fifteen year old was reading,
(26:35):
looking at, examining, and identifying with yesterday with my twelve
year olds on you made punk apples with all of
his friends. And I think when a parent comes in
to parenthood and they're doing it all by themselves for
so many years, and she doesn't have the support of
a male in the home with the sun, it's very difficult.
It is very difficult. Doesn't her husband live with them?
(26:57):
That is the stepfather, and I think they were recently
married with a last few years. The father of this
child is not in the picture. He lives in another state. Okay,
I wanna go into this kick K E K with
Dr Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist. I'm learning that kick that
Greg Ramos was involved with was actually an ancient Egyptian god, Okay,
(27:22):
god with a little g and was often depicted with
a head of a frog. I don't know that I
want my son, you know, or my daughter embroiled an
ancient Egyptian demigoggs. But it is mostly an innocent cartoon character,
but it was then turn into a hate Symbolay, so
(27:42):
tell me what you know about this and why it's
so telling this boy was part of that. I don't
I don't know a lot about it specifically, but I
can tell you what I do know, which is as
a child psychiatrist, I see parents bringing their kids into
my office all the time, and a lot of these
kids will have online personas that their parents are not
even aware of. So, you know, you can try to
be a good parent. You can try to keep track
(28:04):
of your kids but there is a whole another world
in cyberspace that they're on. Is you really have to
work hard. Even law enforcements sometimes can't even find online
personas that people have, So as a parent, it's very
challenging to really be on top of all the details
to know what kids are doing when they go to school,
and whose smartphones they're using, and whose computers they're on
when they're not at your home. But I tell parents
(28:26):
this all the time. It's very important to keep that
computer in a common area and not when they're in
their room with the door closed, because they're in another
world and they shouldn't be there. Well, let me tell
you this what John David, my beloved, my perfect little
boy used as his handle angry three g I, a
angry third writer said that's actually cute. I said to David,
(28:49):
whre you so angry? And goes but angry Mom and angry,
And I'm like, why are you angry? He said, because
some days we don't get the full thirty minutes on
the playground. Mom, That's why he's angry. I cannot tell
you how relieved I was to find out why he
was angry. So I'm always sneaking up on them to
find out what they're doing online. Every time I sneak
(29:10):
up with my daughter, she's either looking at yet another
cat video, which is disturbing in its own own right,
but some kind of facial something you make at home
to put on your face. She just turned eleven, okay,
but in our culture, she's always like already like putting
all these beauty lotions that she makes out of, all
(29:32):
sorts of things out of the fridge onto her face.
Let me just say, and she would kill me if
if you know the instant tan lotion, so she read
online you can mix cocoa powder with lotion. She makes
it with a vino and rubbed it all over herself, okay,
to get an instant tan. I told her how absolutely
(29:52):
gorgeous she looked. Of course, Uh okay, I'm digressing. What
I'm talking about is this kid going online on his
Facebook all sorts of hate inspired motifs. What does it mean?
I'm not sure, but I know this. Cops say he
murdered his mother very calmly, very calculatedly. Listen. Rage rage.
(30:18):
Apparently there was a dispute about March with his mother
um and in her an argument occurred. It around eleven
o'clock or so, and around twelve thirty he went into
her room and woke her up and began trying to
learn strangle the until he killed and then he had
to do something with the body. So here he put
the body in the back of his mother's car, drove
(30:39):
to Daytona and and Holly Hillary, where he was going
to dispose of the body, thought better of it, came
back home that shovel, got everything he needed, drove one
five miles down the road to the church. Uh doug
ahol time depositive mother in it, covered it up maybe
crime scene like a burglary had occurred, uh, and then
went to school, left school early when she's worth still
(31:02):
he began to fall apart and then got home and
made his uh in his own words, a Grammy winning
phone call to talk about this horrible incident. It did
not really occur. Neighbors tell me that deeply religious woman
was extremely supportive of her fifteen year old son, Gregory Ramos,
who is now accused of Stranglinger in their Alexans at home,
(31:23):
and then listening to two of his friends, Dylan said
Cleric and Brian Porters to help cover it go was
a sweetheart. She was very very kind person. When Hecke
tells me the family moved to this to Burry neighborhood
five years ago, she says they all got along well
with the family, and she would drive Ramos and her
son to University High School. Ramos was also a member
of the Orange City Please Explorers program. He was always
polite to me, and they always thanked me and say,
(31:45):
you know, thank you for the Ryan home. Neighbors tell
me Clevelander was involved in martial arts and she also
worked as an architect at a firm in Orlando. She
started there just three weeks ago. A company tells me
she was a hard worker and spoke highly of her
son and step children. They tell me they are heartbroken
by this loss. Cannot understand it either. You're hearing from
our friends Greg Wurmer at w f TV TV Channel
(32:05):
nine and speaking to Gil Clelinger's neighbors, and we learned
that this boy, Greg Ramos, who now is charged in
the murder of his mother, was a police explorer in
the Explorer group. You know, Dr Daniel Bober. It sounds
like this kid. If if Kathleen Murphy had not gone
online and found his Facebook and all the implications of that.
(32:29):
He seems like an outwardly great kid. And it says
a lot to me that the mother was upset that
he made a D, which means she cares. Well, you know,
I don't really think this is about him getting a D.
Obviously they were much deeper problems. But it just shows how,
you know, people can sort of compartmentalize their lives and
be living this completely other life and others aren't aware
of it. Is it true, Nicole Partner? The sheriff says
(32:51):
that the boy was quote proud of his work. What
do you know, Nicole? That's right. As part of his confession,
Gregory says he was very proud of his work, telling
the sheriff that he thought he deserved a Grammy for
his He also stated that when he made that I'm
on one call, he used what he had learned in
criminal justice classes to give quote the flavor of truth
(33:16):
to his lies. Penny Douglas Firm, veteran defense attorney. What
do you do with that? That he used what he
learned in his criminal justice classes to quote give a
flavor of truth to his lies. That's a typical thing
of sociopaths. I hate to say that, but that's typical
(33:36):
of what they do. They'll take a little bit of
truth and twisted. And that's the sad thing I've litigated
against sociopaths. It is a nightmare. And if you know,
the child of sociopathy needs to be in treatment immediately.
I don't know what signs of mother miss but this
child should have been in treatment long ago. Oh, you're
back on the mom. You're back on the mom. The
(33:58):
signs the mother? Men? You know what Joe's goot Morgan,
Joseph Scott, Morgan, you're the forensics expert. Explain how this
attack went down. I don't think the mom missed anything.
This kid is super intelligent. Yeah, he's Uh, he's apparently
waited until until the wee hours. Maybe she's gone to bed.
Remember we heard that she had contacted the stepfather after
(34:21):
she had confronted this kid. He's stewing over this thing,
sitting around thinking about it. Wait until she goes to bed. Now.
One of the articles that I read, Nancy stated that
he not just strangled her, he throttled her. And if
the listeners will essentially take their hands and put their
thumbs together, uh, lame flat and formed kind of a
you with your hands. That gives you an idea of
(34:43):
what the formation of his hands would look like, the
attitude that would be in as he wrapped him around
this mother's neck and then began to squeeze. I find
it interesting that they talked about how long this took,
said it took up to thirty minutes. Uh. A lot
of this is dependent upon hand pressure, how much hand
pressure he can exert over her throat. There will be
(35:04):
a struggle at the scene. You noted quite accurately a
few months ago. He's gotten marks on his face when
they exhumed her body out of this fire pit. Uh.
They're going to do at the morgue. They will do
nail scrapings on her and you'll be able to find
probably his skin beneath her fingernails. Uh. And Uh, probably
(35:25):
much of his DNA on her if it hasn't been
completely disrupted. Very very troubling, very troubling. Yeah, we keep
throwing around the term sociopath. Dr Daniel Bober forensic psychiatrists.
Sociopath does not mean insanity. We do know police say
he had no remorse, that he is super intelligent, and
(35:45):
not only that that he was quote proud of his work.
What does that mean? And what is a sociopath? That
is correct, Nancy, sociopath does not equal the insanity defense.
Sociopaths don't know the difference, do not necessarily know the
difference between right and wrong. Even though that was a
double negative. The point is is that you could be
a sociopath. You can plan, you can organize, you can
attempt to conceal um, you can lie, you can manipulate,
(36:08):
And so just because you're a sociopath doesn't absolve you
of responsibility. Uh. And in fact, it makes you quite
adept at committing crime and trying to conceal it. Kathleen Murphy,
North Carolina family lawyer, will he be charged as an adult?
I believe he will be charged as an adult, as
he rightly should be charged as an adult. This is
an intentional throttle, as Joe said, murder of his mother
(36:33):
planned with four thoughts. Well, we also know, uh to
Joe's got Morgan, speaking of forensics, that the mom was
first attack in her own bed after midnight, so clearly
he waited for her to be asleep. This teen boy
spent over half an hour throttling his mom dad with
his bare hands as she fought for her life. This
(36:56):
was all over a d as in delta gray and
and unfolded in court where this boy was denied bail
and remains in custody. There are the seven Deadly's the
d f as designated felonies for which a minor will
be quote bound over to adult felony court. Murder is
(37:20):
one of them, along with rape, aggravated sodomy, armed robbery, arson.
Let's see what are the other two. Any lawyer on
the panel can tell me the other two. But long
story short, Penny, Douglas fur he's gonna be bound over.
He will be tried as an adult. I can guarantee
you that, Nancy. The only thing that fifteen Big fifteen
(37:42):
will help him with is he will not get the
death penalty, which he could get in Florida for this
type of crime. But I do not think they'll give
the death penalty to a fifteen year old. Well, they
can't under the Supreme Court ruling about four or five
years ago, no one under the age of eighteen in
our country can be a sentence to death penalty. But
explain the bind over process, Penny. How will it be
(38:03):
determined if he will be treated as an adult. Well,
as you just said, it's one of the seven deadly sins,
so that will definitely send him over. And it's murder.
And not only is it murder, but he went back
and found her alive and then killed her again, so
he thought about it and went back and did it again.
So absolutely he's dangerous. He will be moved over to
(38:25):
adult court to be tried as an adult for murder,
and he will most likely get life in prison. I
thought of the seven deadlies. They are agassault, arson, aggravated battery,
which means you lose a limb or a body part
or your eye, your arm during an agg assault, robbery,
armed robbery, um, kidnap, murder, Do I do I get seven? Jackie? Okay?
(38:52):
I got all seven. Those are the typical designated felonies
for which a child or eighteen will be bound, owned
over and treated as an adult. Police in this case
say that Gregory Logan Ramos is one of the top
three sociopaths they have ever encountered. They are assuming the
(39:14):
worst for my son. So they went in there, they
all got out, but he didn't come out, so they
say that he was where they left he went to
the bar to get the drinks for everybody, and that's
when they heard the shocks ringing out and oh, panic,
have you gone to the hospital. We did call the hospital.
(39:34):
They don't. They're going through their crazy triage right now,
so they don't have any names or anybody that they
They don't want to talk yet. So I haven't been
over there, asked my next step is to go there yet?
What did they tell you here? They just take your
information and tell you to wait. How is that a
A dad? Like I said, I'm pretty emotional. Tell me
(39:58):
about Cogan rooms I do pretty's personality awesome. Um, we're
very Christian raised family and everything. That's he's a very
good kid. You know, he's very good in school. He's
very sports oriented. Uh was going into the army. So
we're gonna have to wait and see at the ending
of the situation. You're answer that, please answer, that's okay.
(40:20):
I'm like, if you get word I want. If he's
going to the arm You talked about these most shootings
that you've been seeing. We've ever talked a lot about things. Yeah,
that's why I'm very Uh, I'm curious right now. And
you know, raising him the way, we raised some white
house and if you picked up a cell phone, anybody's
cell phone, and he was called home. So I don't
(40:44):
understand where where we're at this point. I'm actually I'm very,
very in shock. At this hour, we now know the
list of victims that were massacred in the Borderline shooting.
You were just hearing Jason Kaufman, who we heard those
(41:05):
heart broken words yesterday. He was desperately searching for his son, Cody,
who had been inside the Borderline bar. Now we know
that Cody is one of the casualties. From Coeds to
law enforcement to military, twelve gunned down. As we look
(41:26):
for answers today to Alan Duke joining me from l A,
what do we know about the shooter? We have his
last Facebook post and it is like none other than
any we've ever seen from someone who commits a massacre.
And what did he mean by this? I think it's
(41:47):
going to take a psychologist to tell us. He says, quote,
I hope people call me insane, and then he posted
laughing emojis. Wouldn't that just be a big ball of irony? Yeah,
I'm insane. But the only thing you p people do
after the shootings is quote hopes and prayers or quote
keep your keep you in my thoughts every time and
wonder why these keep happening. That's what Ian David Long
(42:13):
wrote just before killing twelve people. You know what that
that It just turns my stomach over to hear the
shooters last fakes book post. We now know who was
massacred in the Borderline bar shooting. First of all, Cody Kaufman.
You were just hearing his father, Jason, wondering was he alive?
(42:34):
Was he dead? His friends came out, but they couldn't
find Cody. The distraught dad rushed to the bar after
hearing these of the shooting, and calls to his son's
cell phone were not answered. Jason had been using a
tracking app on his son's phone, and it indicated the
cell phone was still on. Of course. Sergeant Ron Helis,
(42:55):
Venturi County Sheriff, Sergeant Ron Heelis leaves behind a son
and I'm wife. He was one of the first on
the scene at the shooting. He raced in to save others.
The last thing he said to his wife, Hannah, I
gotta go. I love you, I gotta go on a call.
Elena Houseley, the niece of actress Tamara Moray Houseley and
(43:15):
her husband Adam also died. Her sweet mate at Pepperdine
earlier posted photos on Twitter saying that she was missing.
Her Apple watch and phone appeared still show her location
as in the bar. She was there with friends. All
of them were accounted for. Justin meek Idd is one
of the victims by his family. He was a twenty
(43:38):
three year old recent grad of California Lutheran University, and
he worked there and organized the college night. He is
believed to have heroically saved lives as the shooting unfolded,
according to the university president Chris Kimball. Sean Adler, forty eight,
was a bouncer at Borderline Bar and Grill. He was
(43:59):
a wrestling coach who had just opened a coffee shop
his dream in the local area. Noel Sparks, a twenty
one year old student at Moore Park, was also confirmed
dead this United Methodist Church in Westlake Village. She was
a member of their posting condolences friends breaking down in
tears as they desperately searched for her after the shooting.
(44:22):
Blake Dingman, just twenty one, identified by his girlfriend as
a victim. My sweet Blake, my heart is hurting more
than words can say, she writes. Telemachus or Fanos, Borderline employee,
confirmed dead. An Eagle scout who served in the Navy.
(44:43):
He survived Route ninety one Harvest festival shooting in Las
Vegas where fifty eight died, and now he's dead. Christina
Kelley Morris set was a cashier at Borderline. She died
in the shooting. She went to Simi Valley High School
and she's absolute beautiful with a big smile and cowboy
boots just like mine. Danielle Manrique thirty three and Marine
(45:07):
Vett spent his whole life helping veterans, readjust his civilian life,
and just got a position with Team r WB. We're
looking at so many of the victims and so many
hearts are broken. To Alan Deep joining us from l
A Alan, It's almost incomprehensible that some of these victims
(45:29):
had survived the shooting at the Mandalais. That is one
of the I'm not even gonna say irony. That doesn't
do it justice. These were country music fans and they
were there at the Root ninety one festival, which in
Las Vegas, where so many people were injured and killed
and for them to be in this shooting, what kind
of odds are that? Well, unfortunately, the odds apparently are
(45:51):
pretty good that you're going to be involved in some
kind of a shooting. It's crazy, joining me, Wendy Patcheck,
California Prosecutor. When you look at this guy's last post,
it's almost as if he knew what was going to
unfold after you know, Nancy, it is, and it's almost
as if, and I find this this very interesting, he
set himself up for a mental defense that he never
(46:11):
had the opportunity to avail himself of because apparently he
committed suicide. It's almost as if he was using his
scenario as a warning to others that unless you give
mental health victims the treatment they need, if they can
overcome the stigma and admit they have a problem, we're
going to see even more of these. But the sinister
nature of it, Nancy, that is just chilling, and would
(46:33):
have been in front of a jury were this man
to have survived, Well, he may have mocked it, and
he may have made light of it, but nothing is
stronger than the power of prayer, and that is what
we are doing today for the victims and their families.
Twelve dead at the Borderline bar. Nancy Grace Crime Stories
(46:53):
signing off goodbye
Host
Nancy Grace
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show. Clay Travis and Buck Sexton tackle the biggest stories in news, politics and current events with intelligence and humor. From the border crisis, to the madness of cancel culture and far-left missteps, Clay and Buck guide listeners through the latest headlines and hot topics with fun and entertaining conversations and opinions.