NBC News' Dateline revealed new details about Idaho college murder suspect Bryan Kohberger, including his phone activity, disturbing search history, and a chilling selfie taken before his arrest.
The report details Kohberger’s searches for Ted Bundy, pornography, and the Britney Spears song “Criminal.” His phone also contained a selfie dated December 28, 2022, showing him staring into the camera in a black hoodie—similar to the clothing Bundy wore in a YouTube video found in Kohberger’s search history.
Dateline also uncovered new information about the killings. Investigators believe Ethan Chapin was the last victim targeted. He was allegedly asleep in bed when the attacker “carved” his lower legs with a blade. Before that, the killer reportedly chased and stabbed Xana Kernodle, who was still awake after ordering food from DoorDash.
Joining Nancy Grace today,
- Joshua Ritter - Criminal Defense Attorney, Former Prosecutor, Host of Courtroom Confidential on YouTube; X, Instagram & TikTok: @joshuaritteresq/YouTube: CRConfidential
- Dr. Shavaun Scott- Psychotherapist, Author of “The Minds of Mass Killers: Understanding and Interrupting the Pathway to Violence” and "Game Addiction: The Experience and the Effects;" FB: Shavaun.scott, Instagram: shavaunscott
- Chris McDonough - Director At the Cold Case Foundation, Former Homicide Detective [worked over 300 homicides in 25-year career], Trained the First Native American Homicide Task Force; Host of YouTube channel, "The Interview Room"
- Joseph Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author of "Blood Beneath My Feet," and Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan;" X @JoScottForensic
- Howard Blum - Author: "When The Night Comes Falling, A Requiem for The Idaho Student Murders;" Instagram: howard_blum_author, X: howardblum
- Dave Mack - Crime Stories Investigative Reporter
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace and eerie Brian Coburger selfie
emerges where he's dressed like Ted Bundy. This as shock,
evidence comes forth, evidence that Xanna was not killed in
(00:21):
her sleep, she was literally chased down the stairs that
stabbed dead. Is that true? I'm Nancy Grace, this is
Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Don't know what.
Speaker 3 (00:59):
She's not waking.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
They saw some man in their house as nice. So
much has developed over the last days in the Brian
Coburger prosecution, in the deadly slangs of four beautiful University
Idaho students, which we thought before tonight had all been
stabbed dead quasi if not totally in their sleep in
(01:26):
their own beds. But now a shocking theory has emerged
that Xanna, Beautiful Xana, was actually chased downstairs and then murdered.
This as an eerie a haunting selfie emerges. Oh there
(01:49):
you go, Brian Coberger dressed like Ted Buddy. Now why
would the white bread boy from the Poconos dress like
Ted Bundy and take eerie selfies? You know what, before
we even get to the news, I need a drink
(02:13):
and a shrink. But sadly, I'm a teetotaler, So straight
out to doctor Bethany Marshall joining us Psychoalys from the
La Jurisdiction. You can see her now on Peacock. She's
the author of deal Breakers on Amazon and you can
find her at doctor Bethanymarshall dot com. Bethany, why why
(02:34):
is he all dressed like Ted Bundy for a series
of selfies? Action looks like he's the star in a
Slice and Dice movie.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
What's this dexter?
Speaker 1 (02:49):
You know, Nancy?
Speaker 3 (02:49):
This tells me that had he not been apprehended, he
would have gone on to kill if Ted Bundy is
his idol and Ted Bundy is a serial killer, killed men,
killed women, had a completely deviant life that this tells
me that this was Brian Coberger's first rodeo, this first
(03:11):
mass killing, and this was just practicing for all the
killings to come. This is his idol, so he's going
to form his entire offending pattern around his idol. This
is more evidence that Brian Coberger should never ever be
let loose in society.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
Again, Okay, you're preaching to the chron on that dodtor.
Bethany bo was looking for something else something that I
can't regurgitate myself. I'm trying to figure out why mister
button down Oxfordshire is dressing like Ted Bundy and a selfie.
Think of Halloween. You know how all the sorority girls
(03:53):
dress up like hookers, right, So this says something, Bethany,
something deeper than I learned in law school. Why is
he dressing up like Ted Bundy? It means something? For
Pete's sake.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
The first patient I ever saw as an intern, I
was twenty five years old, was a young woman who
looked like little bo Peep from the waist up and
like a hooker from the waist down. She had fishnet stockings,
stiletto heels. She was a church secretary, and so she
had this duality in her personality. And this is what
I see in Brian Coberger. In fact, we call it
(04:27):
a vertical split in my field, where one half of
the person's personality could be deviant, naughty, counter society, maybe
even homicidal, and the other part is sort of like
a do gooder, and the two sites are not integrated.
They could go and give a birthday cake to Grandma
(04:50):
and celebrate Grandma and then go rape the old lady
next door. So it's very scary when you see these
kinds of lack of integration with people of certain types
of pathology, because it tells you that deb inside could
be so so deep, because it's hidden even from their
own consciousness.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
Sometimes joining me an ullstar panel to make sense of
what we are learning tonight. And I want to go
straight out to another renowned guess. It's Howard Bloom, author
of When the Night Comes Falling, a Requiem for the
Idaho student murders. He has done extensive research on this case,
(05:29):
talk to people we've never even heard of in his
effort to get to the truth of what happened. You
may know Coburger better than any of us, and I
want to hear what you think about why.
Speaker 4 (05:42):
He's dressing up like Ted Bundy of all people. Well,
first of all, you know that's taking a leap of faith.
Sometimes a black puddie is just a black hoiddie. I mean,
there's no crime wearing a black hoiddie. So is he
posing as Ted Bundy or is he just some guy
wearing his black hoodie?
Speaker 1 (06:03):
Okay, stop, just stop, please please just stop. Just a
black hoodie. You know I've got a black hoodie, and
I don't look like that at a selfie, a positioned selfie.
It's not like he's holding his phone like that. Some
of that is up on a tripod or set up somehow.
Why is he doing not that one? Not that one?
(06:24):
Let me see the other one. Go, yes, that one.
You want to tell me he's just just wearing a
black hoodie. No, he's not just wearing a black hoodie. Here.
He is communicating something that one evokes Ted Bundy. That
is not innocent. He's looking all thuggish and menacing. So
it's not that he just ran out and bought a
(06:45):
black hoodie. I've got a black hoodie and I don't
take freaky selfies in it. There's a difference. What is
a difference? Speak Bloom again.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
I don't find I just find that a disconcerting stare.
He's giving into the camera, he's posing, he's making faces.
There's no crime in doing that.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
I mean, it's really a large leap.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Of faith to condemn him for that. There's so much
more evidence there to look at and to proposes that
he makes in front of his own camera. It's really
doing a psychological analysis of a selfie.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
When you have a whole series of self you pick
out one.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
I think that's a large leap of faith, and it's speculative.
We can be speculative. Let's be speculative, but let's also
give him the benefit of the doubt of what that
selfie means.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
Doctor Bethany Marshall joining us. Okay, you use the term
vertical split, and it makes me think of other killers
such as BTK buying torture kill, Dennis Reider, who was
literally a church deacon by day and a serial killer
(07:53):
slash dog catcher by night, murdering people, women, even children
that in bizarre sexual ways that he would identify on
his dog catching route. Then you've got Rex Hureman, who
is an architect and a successful architect at that by day,
even bringing his daughter into the practice, and one of
(08:15):
the freakiest, most evil serial killers in history. Then of
course there's Ted Bundy, who is a quasi brilliant law
student but also a freakazoid killer where at the end
he's just bashing people in the head with a log.
(08:36):
There's no forethought, there's just mad killing. But he's not insane.
So when you say vertical split, the duality of the
psychees of these killers is something I'm trying to figure
out with Coburger. Vertical split. I've never heard that before. Bethany.
Speaker 3 (08:54):
Well, let's think of a vertical split as on one
side is all the aspirational goodness their families, whom they
rely upon. In the case of Brian Coburger, you know,
teaching in a class, learning about law, you know, trying
to flirt with women. But he was a family guy.
He lived with his family for a long long time.
And then on the other side of the split all
(09:16):
the evil side. I mean, the church secretary that looked
like little bo peep from the waist up and a
hooker from the waist down was having affairs with other
pastors through the church computer. But she was the church
greeter on Sunday morning. So it's the lack of integration
I think in which these kinds of actions foment. So
the BTK killer, you know, he would measure people's.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
Grasp joining me. Howard Bloom, author of the definitive work
on as of Now on the Idaho Sleighs when the
Night comes falling a requiem for the Ido Student murders,
and you can find him at Howard bloommest blum dot com. Howard,
thank you for being with us. Howard the nay to
(10:00):
keep photographic evidence.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
What is that when someone commits a crime like this,
it is the high point of their moment. They are
building up to it over a period of time and
then they finally find the will. They finally can make
that jump into becoming the monster that they're seeing in
their mind. And they want to commemorate this moment. They
(10:25):
want this moment to live on. That's why they do it.
They want to have this experience. It's like looking at
a scrap book. We might keep a scrap book of
high events in our lives. Weddings, high school graduations, college graduations.
They are their killings.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
Jo Scott Morgan joining me, Professor FORENSCTS Jaiswell State University,
author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. He's the
star of a hit podcast, Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan.
Jo Scott, thank you for being with us. I want
to the dichotomy of the selfies that Coburger has taken
(11:07):
juxapposed against compared to the crime scene, and I want
you to hear this just got before you elaborate on
the crime scene. Disturbing evidence tonight that Xana did not
die in her sleep, she was actually chased down downstairs
(11:27):
and murdered. Listen.
Speaker 5 (11:29):
New information is Madison may have been the killer's intended target,
and the killer was surprised to find Mogan was not alone.
Kaylee Gonzolves had recently moved out and only returned for
a visit with Mogen. The killer arrives just after four
am and goes directly to Madison's room first, where a
tanned leather sheath for a k bar knife is found
near Mogan's body on the bed. Coburger's DNA was found
(11:52):
on the button snap of the knife sheath.
Speaker 6 (11:54):
One floor below Madison's room, Xena has just received her
door dash order and is scrolling through Instagram when she
hears a struggle in the room above. Running up to
the next floor, the killer chases Xana back down to
her bedroom, leaving the knife sheath behind. Catching up to Kernodle,
the killer stabs her to death while her boyfriend Ethan
remains asleep. Shocking new evidence. Before he is killed, the
(12:18):
murderer carves Chapin's lower leg with a blade. Chapin is
the last murder victim killed with one strike of the
knife hitting an artery.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
Now, according to sources, Ethan's leg was not carved, it
was stabbed. I don't think we're going to know that
until we actually hear the autopsy report. But straight out
to you, Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, Author,
podcast Star. I could go on, just Scott, this changes things.
This is a different dynamic than what we had first
(12:49):
been told. The fact that Xana was chased down that
changes the entire complexion.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
For me.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
It was horrible to start with, but imagining Xana running
for her life as another layer of terror, how would
they even know that?
Speaker 7 (13:10):
Well, I think we got to go back who told
us in the beginning? You know that all and I
mean all of the victims were apparently asleep. Do you recall, Nancy,
it was either the first or the second day. Afterward
we had this odd event that occurred which never happens,
and that is the coroner did an interview. Do you
recall that she gives an interview?
Speaker 1 (13:32):
Yes, I remember, And that is why a cardinal rule
is never speak to the press if you are part
of a case. It doesn't matter what they say about
you or anything else, because one off hand statement they
were killed in their sleep has now taken a snowball
that that's what happened, and it may be entirely untrue.
Speaker 7 (13:56):
Yeah, and now retrospectively, when you throw this new data
in there, it's almost you know, it can be implied
that it's deceptive or whatever. That's why, if you're inside
of the investigative bubble that I refer to, you keep
your mouth shut, particularly for the corner. They have no
business saying anything about this. But the dynamic of Xanna
being found away from the bed is quite interesting, and
(14:19):
that that gives you an awareness, does it? Because we've
heard about the food delivery and this sort of thing.
We've heard about voices and a lot of the stuff.
I think going back, Xana is tied to relative to
her activity, you know, we can you know, you get
this impression about all of this all the way along,
and the dynamic has completely changed. You know, before we're thinking, yeah,
(14:40):
you know Ethan and Xanna were cuddled in the bed,
you know, and that they're asleep. Oh that's that ain't
what happened here, Nancy.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
Well, how are they going to prove it.
Speaker 7 (14:49):
I don't know that that they necessarily can. I think
one of the fascinating things for this, in particular is
if she had an awareness that there was somebody up
there and she snuck up the stairs just to kind
of investigate on her own.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
Was she cut in.
Speaker 7 (15:07):
Any way up there and then chased down afterwards, and
maybe there's some kind of deposition of her blood on
the carpet leading back to her bedroom, or is it
all concentrated in the room. Because the one thing we
do know about.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
It, I want to throw something at him. Yeah, sure, Okay,
listen to this. I think the blood spatter is going
to be critical here because I'm hypothesizing if she were
stabbed at all on those stairs, even if she ran
back up, We're going to get Xana's blood on the stairs,
(15:42):
even if her body is found in the bedroom, if
she ran down and ran back. I don't know yet
because I haven't seen the blood evidence. But all they
need is a drop a drop, not a transfer, not
a smear which could come from the killer, but a
drop from her or spatter from her which showed the
(16:03):
event happened right there, so it wouldn't matter where her
body was found that shows that a stabbing happened on
the stairs, that she left her room. And there's one
other thing, but put this into your equation. Joining me
is crime Stories investigative reporter Dave mac Dave, isn't it
true that one of the survivors, the one that ran
(16:25):
from one room to the next that night they were
frantically texting back and forth. There's a guy in here,
he's wearing a black mask on his face. Didn't one
of them run past Xana and see her in the
floor and think she was passed out drunk Because all
the facts hadn't assimilated, she didn't know what had happened,
(16:47):
which goes to this theory refreshment I recollection, Dave.
Speaker 6 (16:51):
Mac, That's exactly what happened, and now you've got to
put it in the context of the moment at you know,
you're talking four o'clock in the morning at a house
that is very active, it's heading towards the end of
the night early morning, and they hear something, and so
one of the roommates does go and look see what's
going on, but not putting anything. You're not thinking something
like this is going to happen. Your thinking is just
(17:12):
a regular night hearing weird sounds. But she sees Xana
and it appears to her that Xanna is just asleep.
That's because that's what she would normally expect to find
at that time of the day or early morning. So
nothing really clicked until later. And that's why there was
all the texting back and forth with the other roommate
(17:32):
and the calls to the phones, just if something's wrong,
something's different than normal.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
And here's another thing, aside from the possibility that Xanna
was actually chased down and killed that night, the theory
that Maddie Madison Mogan may have been the intended target.
And now we are now getting which I'm about to
get to him leading up to it, information as to
(17:59):
how we've heard all along. The prosecutors came out in
open court and said we have no evidence that the
victims were stalked on social media. Because remember there was
a lot of talk that Kyburger had stalked the victims
in that vein. It was believed for a long period
of time that killing Gold's Solvice was the intended victim.
(18:23):
It wasn't that the accepted theory at the get go.
Dave Mack that somehow Kelly was the intended victim and
the others were tangential. Now we're hearing that new information
Matty Mogan may have been the killer's intended target.
Speaker 6 (18:42):
Well, you know the first talking about targeting and who
was the first one that actually came from the Genthalvest family.
You remember in the very early parts of the investigation,
they were very public talking about the investigation of wanting information,
and they were given certain information that led them to
believe and led them to say that Kayley was the target.
(19:04):
In their minds, that's what they saw. Now we're hearing
that that may not be the case. Again, Now we
go back to the world of Joseph Scott Morgan, because
I don't know how you can determine when you've got
two young women in the same location, both being killed
with a knife, how you determine who was killed first?
Speaker 1 (19:23):
Guys, Now we're learning more freaky coburger photos just emerging
could reveal how he allegedly targeted four beautiful Idaho University
students for murder.
Speaker 5 (19:45):
Emergency.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
You don't know what.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
She's They saw some men in their house a say.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
Come have to.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
She's not waking up. What are hydrons?
Speaker 5 (20:15):
Of the Emergency one one two, two Teams, Drugs.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. On one of the many
many days I spent trumping around Moscow and Pullman, I
met Coburger's neighbor, one of his neighbors who described Coburger's father,
(20:46):
upon moving Coburger in for the start of school, coming
to him and saying words to the effect, my son
has a hard time making friends. Surprise, surprise, would you
be his friend? I believe the pool party that is
now under the microscope was an invite from that neighbor.
(21:08):
Little did I know at the time that that pool
party could be the nexus between Coburger and the murder victims.
Speaker 8 (21:17):
Listen to me, he seemed a little awkward, kind of
like you might expect for a PhD student who didn't
know anyone at the party and was maybe trying his
best to kind of get out there and be social
and make friends.
Speaker 9 (21:29):
Shortly after moving to Pullman, Coberger is invited to a
pool party in Moscow July ninth. Coburger attends the pool
party during the day, and his cell phone data analyzed
by an FBI cell phone expert indicates Coburger came back
to Moscow the night of July ninth, and in the days, weeks,
and months that followed, Coburger's phone pinged nearly a dozen
times to a tower that provides coverage within one hundred
(21:51):
feet of the murder house. Cell Phone records indicate Coberger
was within one hundred meters of eleven twenty two King
Road on at least twenty five three occasions. All trips
were after dark, and the last recorded visit just six
days before the murders.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
The first lady you heard speaking from the pool Party
episode was from our friends at NBC's Dateline. That Dateline
episode has exploded in the courtroom with the judge demanding
an investigation to find out how that and other information
was leaked to Dateline. And I got to tell you
(22:28):
it certainly touched a nerve, which makes me think that
what's in Dateline could very well be true. Now, can
we get back to the nexus between the pool party
and the murder victims? Okay, listen to this.
Speaker 5 (22:42):
Another leak is Coburger's cell phone browsing history in possession
of law enforcement shows dozens of pictures of female students
at Washington State and the University of Idaho. Many in
bathing suits, some of them friends or followers of three
murdered students, Madison, Kaylee, and Xana.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
Okay, now we must deduce, we must extrapolate based on
what we know. Joining me as a renowned homes sign investigator,
Chris McDonough, director Cold Case Foundation, and the star of
YouTube channel the interview room where I found him. Okay, Chris,
go with me on this and jump in. So he
(23:19):
gets invited to the pool party, I think the same
pool party the neighbor invited him to so he could
make friends. All right, He's at the pool party that night,
July nine, begins his trips to where the murders occurred,
the King Road murder scene. That night, his phone is
(23:41):
pinged and there are over twenty subsequent visits to the
murder scene leading up to the murder significance. They start
the night of the pool party, right, he didn't know them.
Then we find photos in his cell phone of women
girls students in swimsuits. Were those girls at the pool party?
(24:08):
Because now we learned last step that on social the
girls in the swimsuits were social media friends online with
the victims. So all along we're like, how did he
find these victims. How did he target them? Does it
all go back to the innocent pool party. He's at
the pool party, he sees women, he takes pictures of
(24:30):
the women in their swimsuits, he looks them up online,
he finds their online friends and targets them. That's just
a coincidence. There is no coincidence in criminal law. McDonough right.
Speaker 10 (24:45):
No, it's like the hunter who is trying to figure
out where the deer hang out. He's a statistic sexual predator,
and it starts with finding your victimology. It starts with
finding girls if that's going to be his victimology, and
then it's going to talk in his head. And I'm
(25:07):
talking about fantasy that he's going to tie it to
his model. And who's his model? Well, right now the
evidence is showing that it could be Ted Bundy. And
if that's the case, who was Ted Bundy stalking? He
was stalking sorority girls. And now the very first murder.
If Brian Kolberger's your guy, he picks a house with
(25:30):
five girls and is the pool party connected, Well, we
don't know yet, but we know he was organized. And
we go back to the sheath for a moment. If
Xanna is the gal that walked up and disturbed him.
That's probably the time he dropped the sheet and that's
when it went disorganized and he probably, if in fact,
(25:53):
he chased her, that was the time, and that probably
explains how the sheath got there in the first place.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
So is it past possibility. No, it's a probability.
Speaker 10 (26:06):
And it's also a probability that when he was taking
that secondary selfie that we're going to find a lot
of information on that digital footprint of his phone. And
it won't surprise me. The type of porn that we
find on that phone is going to be very sadistic.
I guarantee you.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
Oh, you're leading me to my next topic. The sadistic
type of porn found on his cell phone, like I'm
having sex with women while they're asleep, passed out, drugged. Well, okay,
not having sex, that's right, But hold on before I
put the cart before the horse. To Joshua Ritter joining
(26:47):
me a veteran trial lawyer, defense attorney, former prosecutor, and
the host of Courtroom Confidential on YouTube, and you can
find him at Josh Ritter e Sqesquire dot com. Josh
thank you for being with us. Josh, take off your
defense hat. I'm taking off my prosecution hat. I'm trying
to understand what's happening. No wonder the judge blew a gasket.
(27:11):
And I don't blame the judge. That was a serious
leak to Dateline. It's not Dateline's fault. They're doing what
they do, right. Somebody leaked. Yeah, I mean we're talking
about cell phone porn, about raping women in their sleep
and when they're drugged. Found on his phone and these
(27:32):
women were attacked he thought, and they were going to
be asleep, right, But the nexus here, there is no
coincidence in criminal law, not that I've ever seen. I've
seen coincidences in life, but in crime. So he's at
a pool party that daddy arranged for him. Basically, he
goes to the pool party. He sees women in swimsuits.
(27:54):
Photos are taken of sorority girls, students in swimsuits online,
they're friends. Are these victims? The night of the party,
he's caught on his hell near the King wrote address,
and that starts the twenty three times he starts visiting there.
(28:14):
That's not a coincidence.
Speaker 11 (28:16):
Yes, no, and no, And what you're outlining too and
pointing out I think he's going to be something that
the prosecution is going to need to make abundantly clear
to the Jersey because one big question I think everyone
has is what was the connection between this man? If
this is the suspect, if this is the person the
police believe is responsible for these grizzly murders, what's his
(28:37):
connection to these victims? Are you telling us that we're
to believe that this is a completely random crime and
we were not even talking about students that go to
the same college, that you could say that, hey, he
watched these.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
And this was a big hole in the state's case
for many people. Of course, motive is not required for
the state to show that, but the jury wants it.
This could be feeling the whole How did he pick
these people? It's just what you're saying, Josh.
Speaker 11 (29:06):
No, absolutely, because they're going to have to give the
jurors something. I don't think you can walk into this
trial with the idea that, hey, random people didn't live
near him, didn't go to class with him, he didn't
see them on a daily basis. We have no connection
between the suspect and these victims. But yeah, we want
you to believe that he's the one that committed the
crime here. Listen. I know there's other evidence at play,
(29:27):
and exactly what you said motive does not need to
be proved, but you got to somehow make a connection here,
because the randomness of this is the thing that's going
to be most troubling to people. The biggest question mark
in people's heads is why in the world would he
picked these three girls and one gentleman in a house
that he doesn't live near. If he doesn't have a
(29:50):
connection to them, doesn't go to class with them, doesn't
work with them, it just starts to create questions, and
as you know, questions can lead to doubt and then
you start to have problems.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
I know Coburger was rehashing what happened at that pool party,
because thanks for our friends over at NBC Dateline, we
actually hear from a woman that he contacted after the
pool party in a very awkward text exchange. Listen.
Speaker 6 (30:17):
One of Coberger's WSU classmates met Coberger at a pool
party and had a few awkward exchanges with him. Holly
tells Coberger about a hiking group and the two exchange
numbers so Coburger can get involved. Holly receives one text
from Coberger, once again asking about the hiking group. Holly
now grateful she never responded.
Speaker 8 (30:35):
It was almost overly formal. I really enjoy that activity,
so you know, can you follow up with me about
about that?
Speaker 1 (30:43):
From our friends Addie Day Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 6 (30:55):
Brian Cooberger's Internet search history allegedly includes Ted Bundy as
well as non consensual sex pornography. In the weeks before
the murders, Coburger searched porn using keywords forced, passed out, drugged,
and sleeping. Coberger's Bundy search might have related to his
job as a teacher's assistant, or maybe he was looking
for his mother's op ed about Bundy. Coberger's phone history reveals,
(31:19):
days before his arrest, he searches for Britney Spears song criminal.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
Okay, that doesn't really make any sense. So he's looking
up porn, doctor Bethany, non consensual sex, right, pornography, He's
looking up rape porn. Okay, that's what that's called. He's
looking up Ted Bundy. I mean, I've looked Ted Bundy
up maybe what a million times, so, and he's a criminologist,
(31:47):
so I'm okay with Ted Bundy search, but non consensual
rape porn looking up porn where the woman where the
rape is quote forced, where the woman is passed out, drugs,
drugged or sleeping. No, help me out, Bethany. And then
remember the factors and Ethan are attacked in their sleep.
Speaker 3 (32:10):
What yes, remember the max factor air He had that
same deviant arousal pattern. He took all these videos of
himself with women passed out in his bed and he
was making these creepy movements over them. So, Nancy, when
somebody comes into my office who's had a brush with
the law, that there's an intersection between that and sex
(32:30):
and assault or they have a deviant arousal pattern, I
always ask them what type of pornography do you look at?
And then who are you in the scenario or the
vignette you're watching? Are you the passive person? Are you
the active person? Are you the person who's watching? And
it gives me a great deal of insight into the
(32:51):
deviant arousal pattern. In this case, he needs his victims
unaware of what he's doing. He wants to rape them
when they don't know he's there, and I'm getting he
wants to rape them. So is this the kind of
person who could really graduate in his offending pattern to
even more serious crimes like necrophilia, you know, abuse of
(33:15):
a corps, something where the sex assault victim does not
know that he's committing the crime, so he has complete
power and control over them.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Okay, you know, uh, Ridder, you better put your defense
hat back on. There's really not coming back from a
guy suspected of murdering four people, three girls that live
in the home in their sleep while hours before he
is looking up rape porn where the victims are passed out,
(33:52):
drugged and or sleeping. Good luck with that, Ridder.
Speaker 11 (33:56):
Well, I mean what I will say is the porn,
though disturbing, What does that have to do with the
crime scene other other than you're saying that the targets
of the crime are females. There is there.
Speaker 1 (34:10):
Allegations of sexual assault past.
Speaker 11 (34:15):
That he made them unconscious. I mean the fact that
a crime scene happens to have four females or three
females part of me again and one male that are
believed to be sleeping and maybe we're finding out not now,
is somehow we're going to we're going to tether in
nexus between that and the idea that he was looking
(34:36):
up disturbing porn. I just don't listen. The disturbing porn
bothers me. The crime scene bothers me. I just don't
see the connection between the two. If the prosecution is
going to try to, you know, thread that needle, I
think they're going to have a tough time convincing jurors
of the same thing.
Speaker 1 (34:51):
Bethony Marshall helped me out because Ritter is dancing all
around the fact that this guy was obviously sexually frustrated.
He keeps trying to connect with women he can't. He
had a horrible record back home. Remember he got kicked
out of a bar for asking women where they lived
(35:11):
and telling one woman one woman had a date with
him and he told her she had great breeders' hips.
I mean, he obviously has a problem connecting with women,
and you know that must have frustrated him. No end
taking pictures of girls in their swimsuits, free key. But
the connection between looking up just before the murders rape
(35:37):
porn where the women are drug passed out or asleep
and quote forced his search, not my words, his and
these girls being targeted what he thought was going to
be in their sleep, in their sleep. Girls that he
had connected to I believe online. Whether he had any
(36:00):
conversation with them online, I don't know, but friends of
girls at the pool party. He's a criminologist. He knows
better than to attack anyone he just met at a
pool party. It would be too obvious. Get it, There
is there's a connection here.
Speaker 3 (36:17):
I get it. One possible victim led to another, maybe
like somebody who's trolling the streets for a certain type
and they see a sex worker who's out there, and
so they're not going to target that victim. They're going
to be friend that victim and learn who that's victim,
and learn who that victim's friends are. Right, they're going
to go down the rabbit hole of people who are
(36:37):
more and more obscure and unidentifiable, bit nanty. When offenders offend,
they look at the type of porn that's going to
prime them for the offense. Pedophiles will look at pictures
of children on the line, Rapists will look at assault.
Men who want to commit murder homicide will look at
(36:59):
maybe college students or maybe Ted Bundy. So looking at
the pornography that the offender is using to arouse themselves
ahead of time. That is so vital and so important.
Hopefully a forensic psychologists will be on the stand to
testify to this.
Speaker 1 (37:16):
And we can't ignore that he's looking up Ted Bundy
and girls being attacked in their sleep and Ted Bundy's
my most infamous crime is attacking the sleeping sorority girls
at the ki Omega House in their sleep. Well speaking
a foreign language, here is anybody getting this? He's looking
(37:38):
up Bundy. He's looking up porn, rape porn, Where the
girls are, the victims are asleep, drug passed out, And
that's what Bundy did. And we can't ignore Joe Scott
Morgan that he's looking up Ted Bundy and girls being
attacked in their sleep, and Ted Bundy's my most infamous
(37:59):
crime attacking the sleeping sorority girls at the kai Omega
House in their sleep. Well, I speaking a foreign language,
here is anybody getting this? He's looking up Bundy, He's
looking up porn, rape porn, Where the girls are, the
victims are asleep, drug passed out, And that's what Bundy did.
Speaker 7 (38:22):
Yeah, he did. However, going back to the photo Nancy,
the hoodie photo that we mentioned off the top. One
of the names that came to mind with me was
Ted Kazinsky with Unibomber. You know, Zinsky. Kazinsky had a
PhD in mathematics as well as a master's degree, and
(38:43):
was very bright, socially awkward those sorts of things, and
probably and I think if you read through his you know,
his statements that he made he saw himself as above
everybody else, that everybody else were these kind of groundlings
that were out there that were not worthy of his time.
It seems to me that there's kind of a pattern
with this and the destructive nature of what union Bobber did.
(39:04):
You know, kind of it came out of the blue.
You think about this attack at night where people are asleep.
This is out of the blue. This guy thinks he's
going to escape and not be caught. It's the height
of arrogance. So you know, I think that yeah, Bundy, Yeah,
he was a law student, a failed law student. I
don't think that Coburger intellectually would see himself at that level.
(39:27):
Would he would raise it the bar higher? Probably more
like the Unibomber to Howard Bloom.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
The coincidences are startling that he is searching Bundy, and
then he starts searching rape porn where the victims are
passed out, asleep or drugged. And then these girls, much
like the Ted Bundy victims, are sorority girls living in
a house. He believes they are all going to be
(39:57):
asleep when he enters.
Speaker 2 (39:59):
Is it just a con or is it something that
a jewelry will decide to send a man to the
firing squad? Now going even to the pool party pictures.
When I was interviewing people at the who attended the
pool party, and I was trying to get a sense
of who was there, one of the first things they
did was show me pictures of women in bathing suits
(40:19):
that they had on their phone, and I said, these
are the women who were there.
Speaker 11 (40:22):
You should check them out.
Speaker 2 (40:23):
They too had pictures of women at the pool party
on their phone.
Speaker 1 (40:27):
Can I speak to bloom Bloom? Did they also then
go that night to friends of the women at the
pool party, I start stalking their home in the dark
of night. Did they also look up rape porn where
the victims were in bed to sleep? You know, before the.
Speaker 2 (40:46):
Actually everything you're saying, you're building a case against them,
it might turn out to be true.
Speaker 4 (40:51):
But I'm also saying you questions because you're situation is
using to business and everybody at the pool party did
the same thing.
Speaker 1 (40:59):
Well they did it.
Speaker 2 (41:02):
I'm suggesting that a good defense attorney will raise all
these questions to a jury, and a jury will then
have to decide based on these questions, is this enough
to send a man in front of the firing squad?
Speaker 1 (41:15):
No, that is not the law. The law is the
jury will determine if it's enough to convict him. This
will be a bifer kated trial, and once there is
a conviction, then they will decide the sentence will be.
Not to consider the death penalty, they have to consider
(41:36):
it guilt or innocence first. And I hardly think these
photos are going to send them to the firing squad.
It's going to be as DNA man on the nine
under the victim's body.
Speaker 2 (41:48):
That's the interesting question, is the DNA and what the
defense is going to say, how did the DNA get there?
And that's what they're going to try to argue. But
all these other issues of the photos I think are
immaterial and irrelevant to the trial. And that's why I
think the charges.
Speaker 1 (42:06):
Yeah, tell that to the victims' families, and now we
remember an American hero, Deputy Sheriff Andrew Peery, el Paso
County Sheriff's Colorado, shot and killed in the line of duty.
A US Army vet. He is behind grieving wife Megan,
and two beautiful children sent us to life without their father.
(42:32):
American hero Deputy Sheriff Andrew Peery. Nancy Gray signing off
goodbye friend.
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace and eerie Brian Coburger selfie
emerges where he's dressed like Ted Bundy. This as shock,
evidence comes forth, evidence that Xanna was not killed in
(00:21):
her sleep, she was literally chased down the stairs that
stabbed dead. Is that true? I'm Nancy Grace, this is
Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Don't know what.
Speaker 3 (00:59):
She's not waking.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
They saw some man in their house as nice. So
much has developed over the last days in the Brian
Coburger prosecution, in the deadly slangs of four beautiful University
Idaho students, which we thought before tonight had all been
stabbed dead quasi if not totally in their sleep in
(01:26):
their own beds. But now a shocking theory has emerged
that Xanna, Beautiful Xana, was actually chased downstairs and then murdered.
This as an eerie a haunting selfie emerges. Oh there
(01:49):
you go, Brian Coberger dressed like Ted Buddy. Now why
would the white bread boy from the Poconos dress like
Ted Bundy and take eerie selfies? You know what, before
we even get to the news, I need a drink
(02:13):
and a shrink. But sadly, I'm a teetotaler, So straight
out to doctor Bethany Marshall joining us Psychoalys from the
La Jurisdiction. You can see her now on Peacock. She's
the author of deal Breakers on Amazon and you can
find her at doctor Bethanymarshall dot com. Bethany, why why
(02:34):
is he all dressed like Ted Bundy for a series
of selfies? Action looks like he's the star in a
Slice and Dice movie.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
What's this dexter?
Speaker 1 (02:49):
You know, Nancy?
Speaker 3 (02:49):
This tells me that had he not been apprehended, he
would have gone on to kill if Ted Bundy is
his idol and Ted Bundy is a serial killer, killed men,
killed women, had a completely deviant life that this tells
me that this was Brian Coberger's first rodeo, this first
(03:11):
mass killing, and this was just practicing for all the
killings to come. This is his idol, so he's going
to form his entire offending pattern around his idol. This
is more evidence that Brian Coberger should never ever be
let loose in society.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
Again, Okay, you're preaching to the chron on that dodtor.
Bethany bo was looking for something else something that I
can't regurgitate myself. I'm trying to figure out why mister
button down Oxfordshire is dressing like Ted Bundy and a selfie.
Think of Halloween. You know how all the sorority girls
(03:53):
dress up like hookers, right, So this says something, Bethany,
something deeper than I learned in law school. Why is
he dressing up like Ted Bundy? It means something? For
Pete's sake.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
The first patient I ever saw as an intern, I
was twenty five years old, was a young woman who
looked like little bo Peep from the waist up and
like a hooker from the waist down. She had fishnet stockings,
stiletto heels. She was a church secretary, and so she
had this duality in her personality. And this is what
I see in Brian Coberger. In fact, we call it
(04:27):
a vertical split in my field, where one half of
the person's personality could be deviant, naughty, counter society, maybe
even homicidal, and the other part is sort of like
a do gooder, and the two sites are not integrated.
They could go and give a birthday cake to Grandma
(04:50):
and celebrate Grandma and then go rape the old lady
next door. So it's very scary when you see these
kinds of lack of integration with people of certain types
of pathology, because it tells you that deb inside could
be so so deep, because it's hidden even from their
own consciousness.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
Sometimes joining me an ullstar panel to make sense of
what we are learning tonight. And I want to go
straight out to another renowned guess. It's Howard Bloom, author
of When the Night Comes Falling, a Requiem for the
Idaho student murders. He has done extensive research on this case,
(05:29):
talk to people we've never even heard of in his
effort to get to the truth of what happened. You
may know Coburger better than any of us, and I
want to hear what you think about why.
Speaker 4 (05:42):
He's dressing up like Ted Bundy of all people. Well,
first of all, you know that's taking a leap of faith.
Sometimes a black puddie is just a black hoiddie. I mean,
there's no crime wearing a black hoiddie. So is he
posing as Ted Bundy or is he just some guy
wearing his black hoodie?
Speaker 1 (06:03):
Okay, stop, just stop, please please just stop. Just a
black hoodie. You know I've got a black hoodie, and
I don't look like that at a selfie, a positioned selfie.
It's not like he's holding his phone like that. Some
of that is up on a tripod or set up somehow.
Why is he doing not that one? Not that one?
(06:24):
Let me see the other one. Go, yes, that one.
You want to tell me he's just just wearing a
black hoodie. No, he's not just wearing a black hoodie. Here.
He is communicating something that one evokes Ted Bundy. That
is not innocent. He's looking all thuggish and menacing. So
it's not that he just ran out and bought a
(06:45):
black hoodie. I've got a black hoodie and I don't
take freaky selfies in it. There's a difference. What is
a difference? Speak Bloom again.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
I don't find I just find that a disconcerting stare.
He's giving into the camera, he's posing, he's making faces.
There's no crime in doing that.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
I mean, it's really a large leap.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Of faith to condemn him for that. There's so much
more evidence there to look at and to proposes that
he makes in front of his own camera. It's really
doing a psychological analysis of a selfie.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
When you have a whole series of self you pick
out one.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
I think that's a large leap of faith, and it's speculative.
We can be speculative. Let's be speculative, but let's also
give him the benefit of the doubt of what that
selfie means.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
Doctor Bethany Marshall joining us. Okay, you use the term
vertical split, and it makes me think of other killers
such as BTK buying torture kill, Dennis Reider, who was
literally a church deacon by day and a serial killer
(07:53):
slash dog catcher by night, murdering people, women, even children
that in bizarre sexual ways that he would identify on
his dog catching route. Then you've got Rex Hureman, who
is an architect and a successful architect at that by day,
even bringing his daughter into the practice, and one of
(08:15):
the freakiest, most evil serial killers in history. Then of
course there's Ted Bundy, who is a quasi brilliant law
student but also a freakazoid killer where at the end
he's just bashing people in the head with a log.
(08:36):
There's no forethought, there's just mad killing. But he's not insane.
So when you say vertical split, the duality of the
psychees of these killers is something I'm trying to figure
out with Coburger. Vertical split. I've never heard that before. Bethany.
Speaker 3 (08:54):
Well, let's think of a vertical split as on one
side is all the aspirational goodness their families, whom they
rely upon. In the case of Brian Coburger, you know,
teaching in a class, learning about law, you know, trying
to flirt with women. But he was a family guy.
He lived with his family for a long long time.
And then on the other side of the split all
(09:16):
the evil side. I mean, the church secretary that looked
like little bo peep from the waist up and a
hooker from the waist down was having affairs with other
pastors through the church computer. But she was the church
greeter on Sunday morning. So it's the lack of integration
I think in which these kinds of actions foment. So
the BTK killer, you know, he would measure people's.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
Grasp joining me. Howard Bloom, author of the definitive work
on as of Now on the Idaho Sleighs when the
Night comes falling a requiem for the Ido Student murders,
and you can find him at Howard bloommest blum dot com. Howard,
thank you for being with us. Howard the nay to
(10:00):
keep photographic evidence.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
What is that when someone commits a crime like this,
it is the high point of their moment. They are
building up to it over a period of time and
then they finally find the will. They finally can make
that jump into becoming the monster that they're seeing in
their mind. And they want to commemorate this moment. They
(10:25):
want this moment to live on. That's why they do it.
They want to have this experience. It's like looking at
a scrap book. We might keep a scrap book of
high events in our lives. Weddings, high school graduations, college graduations.
They are their killings.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
Jo Scott Morgan joining me, Professor FORENSCTS Jaiswell State University,
author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. He's the
star of a hit podcast, Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan.
Jo Scott, thank you for being with us. I want
to the dichotomy of the selfies that Coburger has taken
(11:07):
juxapposed against compared to the crime scene, and I want
you to hear this just got before you elaborate on
the crime scene. Disturbing evidence tonight that Xana did not
die in her sleep, she was actually chased down downstairs
(11:27):
and murdered. Listen.
Speaker 5 (11:29):
New information is Madison may have been the killer's intended target,
and the killer was surprised to find Mogan was not alone.
Kaylee Gonzolves had recently moved out and only returned for
a visit with Mogen. The killer arrives just after four
am and goes directly to Madison's room first, where a
tanned leather sheath for a k bar knife is found
near Mogan's body on the bed. Coburger's DNA was found
(11:52):
on the button snap of the knife sheath.
Speaker 6 (11:54):
One floor below Madison's room, Xena has just received her
door dash order and is scrolling through Instagram when she
hears a struggle in the room above. Running up to
the next floor, the killer chases Xana back down to
her bedroom, leaving the knife sheath behind. Catching up to Kernodle,
the killer stabs her to death while her boyfriend Ethan
remains asleep. Shocking new evidence. Before he is killed, the
(12:18):
murderer carves Chapin's lower leg with a blade. Chapin is
the last murder victim killed with one strike of the
knife hitting an artery.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
Now, according to sources, Ethan's leg was not carved, it
was stabbed. I don't think we're going to know that
until we actually hear the autopsy report. But straight out
to you, Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, Author,
podcast Star. I could go on, just Scott, this changes things.
This is a different dynamic than what we had first
(12:49):
been told. The fact that Xana was chased down that
changes the entire complexion.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
For me.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
It was horrible to start with, but imagining Xana running
for her life as another layer of terror, how would
they even know that?
Speaker 7 (13:10):
Well, I think we got to go back who told
us in the beginning? You know that all and I
mean all of the victims were apparently asleep. Do you recall, Nancy,
it was either the first or the second day. Afterward
we had this odd event that occurred which never happens,
and that is the coroner did an interview. Do you
recall that she gives an interview?
Speaker 1 (13:32):
Yes, I remember, And that is why a cardinal rule
is never speak to the press if you are part
of a case. It doesn't matter what they say about
you or anything else, because one off hand statement they
were killed in their sleep has now taken a snowball
that that's what happened, and it may be entirely untrue.
Speaker 7 (13:56):
Yeah, and now retrospectively, when you throw this new data
in there, it's almost you know, it can be implied
that it's deceptive or whatever. That's why, if you're inside
of the investigative bubble that I refer to, you keep
your mouth shut, particularly for the corner. They have no
business saying anything about this. But the dynamic of Xanna
being found away from the bed is quite interesting, and
(14:19):
that that gives you an awareness, does it? Because we've
heard about the food delivery and this sort of thing.
We've heard about voices and a lot of the stuff.
I think going back, Xana is tied to relative to
her activity, you know, we can you know, you get
this impression about all of this all the way along,
and the dynamic has completely changed. You know, before we're thinking, yeah,
(14:40):
you know Ethan and Xanna were cuddled in the bed,
you know, and that they're asleep. Oh that's that ain't
what happened here, Nancy.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
Well, how are they going to prove it.
Speaker 7 (14:49):
I don't know that that they necessarily can. I think
one of the fascinating things for this, in particular is
if she had an awareness that there was somebody up
there and she snuck up the stairs just to kind
of investigate on her own.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
Was she cut in.
Speaker 7 (15:07):
Any way up there and then chased down afterwards, and
maybe there's some kind of deposition of her blood on
the carpet leading back to her bedroom, or is it
all concentrated in the room. Because the one thing we
do know about.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
It, I want to throw something at him. Yeah, sure, Okay,
listen to this. I think the blood spatter is going
to be critical here because I'm hypothesizing if she were
stabbed at all on those stairs, even if she ran
back up, We're going to get Xana's blood on the stairs,
(15:42):
even if her body is found in the bedroom, if
she ran down and ran back. I don't know yet
because I haven't seen the blood evidence. But all they
need is a drop a drop, not a transfer, not
a smear which could come from the killer, but a
drop from her or spatter from her which showed the
(16:03):
event happened right there, so it wouldn't matter where her
body was found that shows that a stabbing happened on
the stairs, that she left her room. And there's one
other thing, but put this into your equation. Joining me
is crime Stories investigative reporter Dave mac Dave, isn't it
true that one of the survivors, the one that ran
(16:25):
from one room to the next that night they were
frantically texting back and forth. There's a guy in here,
he's wearing a black mask on his face. Didn't one
of them run past Xana and see her in the
floor and think she was passed out drunk Because all
the facts hadn't assimilated, she didn't know what had happened,
(16:47):
which goes to this theory refreshment I recollection, Dave.
Speaker 6 (16:51):
Mac, That's exactly what happened, and now you've got to
put it in the context of the moment at you know,
you're talking four o'clock in the morning at a house
that is very active, it's heading towards the end of
the night early morning, and they hear something, and so
one of the roommates does go and look see what's
going on, but not putting anything. You're not thinking something
like this is going to happen. Your thinking is just
(17:12):
a regular night hearing weird sounds. But she sees Xana
and it appears to her that Xanna is just asleep.
That's because that's what she would normally expect to find
at that time of the day or early morning. So
nothing really clicked until later. And that's why there was
all the texting back and forth with the other roommate
(17:32):
and the calls to the phones, just if something's wrong,
something's different than normal.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
And here's another thing, aside from the possibility that Xanna
was actually chased down and killed that night, the theory
that Maddie Madison Mogan may have been the intended target.
And now we are now getting which I'm about to
get to him leading up to it, information as to
(17:59):
how we've heard all along. The prosecutors came out in
open court and said we have no evidence that the
victims were stalked on social media. Because remember there was
a lot of talk that Kyburger had stalked the victims
in that vein. It was believed for a long period
of time that killing Gold's Solvice was the intended victim.
(18:23):
It wasn't that the accepted theory at the get go.
Dave Mack that somehow Kelly was the intended victim and
the others were tangential. Now we're hearing that new information
Matty Mogan may have been the killer's intended target.
Speaker 6 (18:42):
Well, you know the first talking about targeting and who
was the first one that actually came from the Genthalvest family.
You remember in the very early parts of the investigation,
they were very public talking about the investigation of wanting information,
and they were given certain information that led them to
believe and led them to say that Kayley was the target.
(19:04):
In their minds, that's what they saw. Now we're hearing
that that may not be the case. Again, Now we
go back to the world of Joseph Scott Morgan, because
I don't know how you can determine when you've got
two young women in the same location, both being killed
with a knife, how you determine who was killed first?
Speaker 1 (19:23):
Guys, Now we're learning more freaky coburger photos just emerging
could reveal how he allegedly targeted four beautiful Idaho University
students for murder.
Speaker 5 (19:45):
Emergency.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
You don't know what.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
She's They saw some men in their house a say.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
Come have to.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
She's not waking up. What are hydrons?
Speaker 5 (20:15):
Of the Emergency one one two, two Teams, Drugs.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. On one of the many
many days I spent trumping around Moscow and Pullman, I
met Coburger's neighbor, one of his neighbors who described Coburger's father,
(20:46):
upon moving Coburger in for the start of school, coming
to him and saying words to the effect, my son
has a hard time making friends. Surprise, surprise, would you
be his friend? I believe the pool party that is
now under the microscope was an invite from that neighbor.
(21:08):
Little did I know at the time that that pool
party could be the nexus between Coburger and the murder victims.
Speaker 8 (21:17):
Listen to me, he seemed a little awkward, kind of
like you might expect for a PhD student who didn't
know anyone at the party and was maybe trying his
best to kind of get out there and be social
and make friends.
Speaker 9 (21:29):
Shortly after moving to Pullman, Coberger is invited to a
pool party in Moscow July ninth. Coburger attends the pool
party during the day, and his cell phone data analyzed
by an FBI cell phone expert indicates Coburger came back
to Moscow the night of July ninth, and in the days, weeks,
and months that followed, Coburger's phone pinged nearly a dozen
times to a tower that provides coverage within one hundred
(21:51):
feet of the murder house. Cell Phone records indicate Coberger
was within one hundred meters of eleven twenty two King
Road on at least twenty five three occasions. All trips
were after dark, and the last recorded visit just six
days before the murders.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
The first lady you heard speaking from the pool Party
episode was from our friends at NBC's Dateline. That Dateline
episode has exploded in the courtroom with the judge demanding
an investigation to find out how that and other information
was leaked to Dateline. And I got to tell you
(22:28):
it certainly touched a nerve, which makes me think that
what's in Dateline could very well be true. Now, can
we get back to the nexus between the pool party
and the murder victims? Okay, listen to this.
Speaker 5 (22:42):
Another leak is Coburger's cell phone browsing history in possession
of law enforcement shows dozens of pictures of female students
at Washington State and the University of Idaho. Many in
bathing suits, some of them friends or followers of three
murdered students, Madison, Kaylee, and Xana.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
Okay, now we must deduce, we must extrapolate based on
what we know. Joining me as a renowned homes sign investigator,
Chris McDonough, director Cold Case Foundation, and the star of
YouTube channel the interview room where I found him. Okay, Chris,
go with me on this and jump in. So he
(23:19):
gets invited to the pool party, I think the same
pool party the neighbor invited him to so he could
make friends. All right, He's at the pool party that night,
July nine, begins his trips to where the murders occurred,
the King Road murder scene. That night, his phone is
(23:41):
pinged and there are over twenty subsequent visits to the
murder scene leading up to the murder significance. They start
the night of the pool party, right, he didn't know them.
Then we find photos in his cell phone of women
girls students in swimsuits. Were those girls at the pool party?
(24:08):
Because now we learned last step that on social the
girls in the swimsuits were social media friends online with
the victims. So all along we're like, how did he
find these victims. How did he target them? Does it
all go back to the innocent pool party. He's at
the pool party, he sees women, he takes pictures of
(24:30):
the women in their swimsuits, he looks them up online,
he finds their online friends and targets them. That's just
a coincidence. There is no coincidence in criminal law. McDonough right.
Speaker 10 (24:45):
No, it's like the hunter who is trying to figure
out where the deer hang out. He's a statistic sexual predator,
and it starts with finding your victimology. It starts with
finding girls if that's going to be his victimology, and
then it's going to talk in his head. And I'm
(25:07):
talking about fantasy that he's going to tie it to
his model. And who's his model? Well, right now the
evidence is showing that it could be Ted Bundy. And
if that's the case, who was Ted Bundy stalking? He
was stalking sorority girls. And now the very first murder.
If Brian Kolberger's your guy, he picks a house with
(25:30):
five girls and is the pool party connected, Well, we
don't know yet, but we know he was organized. And
we go back to the sheath for a moment. If
Xanna is the gal that walked up and disturbed him.
That's probably the time he dropped the sheet and that's
when it went disorganized and he probably, if in fact,
(25:53):
he chased her, that was the time, and that probably
explains how the sheath got there in the first place.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
So is it past possibility. No, it's a probability.
Speaker 10 (26:06):
And it's also a probability that when he was taking
that secondary selfie that we're going to find a lot
of information on that digital footprint of his phone. And
it won't surprise me. The type of porn that we
find on that phone is going to be very sadistic.
I guarantee you.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
Oh, you're leading me to my next topic. The sadistic
type of porn found on his cell phone, like I'm
having sex with women while they're asleep, passed out, drugged. Well, okay,
not having sex, that's right, But hold on before I
put the cart before the horse. To Joshua Ritter joining
(26:47):
me a veteran trial lawyer, defense attorney, former prosecutor, and
the host of Courtroom Confidential on YouTube, and you can
find him at Josh Ritter e Sqesquire dot com. Josh
thank you for being with us. Josh, take off your
defense hat. I'm taking off my prosecution hat. I'm trying
to understand what's happening. No wonder the judge blew a gasket.
(27:11):
And I don't blame the judge. That was a serious
leak to Dateline. It's not Dateline's fault. They're doing what
they do, right. Somebody leaked. Yeah, I mean we're talking
about cell phone porn, about raping women in their sleep
and when they're drugged. Found on his phone and these
(27:32):
women were attacked he thought, and they were going to
be asleep, right, But the nexus here, there is no
coincidence in criminal law, not that I've ever seen. I've
seen coincidences in life, but in crime. So he's at
a pool party that daddy arranged for him. Basically, he
goes to the pool party. He sees women in swimsuits.
(27:54):
Photos are taken of sorority girls, students in swimsuits online,
they're friends. Are these victims? The night of the party,
he's caught on his hell near the King wrote address,
and that starts the twenty three times he starts visiting there.
(28:14):
That's not a coincidence.
Speaker 11 (28:16):
Yes, no, and no, And what you're outlining too and
pointing out I think he's going to be something that
the prosecution is going to need to make abundantly clear
to the Jersey because one big question I think everyone
has is what was the connection between this man? If
this is the suspect, if this is the person the
police believe is responsible for these grizzly murders, what's his
(28:37):
connection to these victims? Are you telling us that we're
to believe that this is a completely random crime and
we were not even talking about students that go to
the same college, that you could say that, hey, he
watched these.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
And this was a big hole in the state's case
for many people. Of course, motive is not required for
the state to show that, but the jury wants it.
This could be feeling the whole How did he pick
these people? It's just what you're saying, Josh.
Speaker 11 (29:06):
No, absolutely, because they're going to have to give the
jurors something. I don't think you can walk into this
trial with the idea that, hey, random people didn't live
near him, didn't go to class with him, he didn't
see them on a daily basis. We have no connection
between the suspect and these victims. But yeah, we want
you to believe that he's the one that committed the
crime here. Listen. I know there's other evidence at play,
(29:27):
and exactly what you said motive does not need to
be proved, but you got to somehow make a connection here,
because the randomness of this is the thing that's going
to be most troubling to people. The biggest question mark
in people's heads is why in the world would he
picked these three girls and one gentleman in a house
that he doesn't live near. If he doesn't have a
(29:50):
connection to them, doesn't go to class with them, doesn't
work with them, it just starts to create questions, and
as you know, questions can lead to doubt and then
you start to have problems.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
I know Coburger was rehashing what happened at that pool party,
because thanks for our friends over at NBC Dateline, we
actually hear from a woman that he contacted after the
pool party in a very awkward text exchange. Listen.
Speaker 6 (30:17):
One of Coberger's WSU classmates met Coberger at a pool
party and had a few awkward exchanges with him. Holly
tells Coberger about a hiking group and the two exchange
numbers so Coburger can get involved. Holly receives one text
from Coberger, once again asking about the hiking group. Holly
now grateful she never responded.
Speaker 8 (30:35):
It was almost overly formal. I really enjoy that activity,
so you know, can you follow up with me about
about that?
Speaker 1 (30:43):
From our friends Addie Day Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 6 (30:55):
Brian Cooberger's Internet search history allegedly includes Ted Bundy as
well as non consensual sex pornography. In the weeks before
the murders, Coburger searched porn using keywords forced, passed out, drugged,
and sleeping. Coberger's Bundy search might have related to his
job as a teacher's assistant, or maybe he was looking
for his mother's op ed about Bundy. Coberger's phone history reveals,
(31:19):
days before his arrest, he searches for Britney Spears song criminal.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
Okay, that doesn't really make any sense. So he's looking
up porn, doctor Bethany, non consensual sex, right, pornography, He's
looking up rape porn. Okay, that's what that's called. He's
looking up Ted Bundy. I mean, I've looked Ted Bundy
up maybe what a million times, so, and he's a criminologist,
(31:47):
so I'm okay with Ted Bundy search, but non consensual
rape porn looking up porn where the woman where the
rape is quote forced, where the woman is passed out, drugs,
drugged or sleeping. No, help me out, Bethany. And then
remember the factors and Ethan are attacked in their sleep.
Speaker 3 (32:10):
What yes, remember the max factor air He had that
same deviant arousal pattern. He took all these videos of
himself with women passed out in his bed and he
was making these creepy movements over them. So, Nancy, when
somebody comes into my office who's had a brush with
the law, that there's an intersection between that and sex
(32:30):
and assault or they have a deviant arousal pattern, I
always ask them what type of pornography do you look at?
And then who are you in the scenario or the
vignette you're watching? Are you the passive person? Are you
the active person? Are you the person who's watching? And
it gives me a great deal of insight into the
(32:51):
deviant arousal pattern. In this case, he needs his victims
unaware of what he's doing. He wants to rape them
when they don't know he's there, and I'm getting he
wants to rape them. So is this the kind of
person who could really graduate in his offending pattern to
even more serious crimes like necrophilia, you know, abuse of
(33:15):
a corps, something where the sex assault victim does not
know that he's committing the crime, so he has complete
power and control over them.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Okay, you know, uh, Ridder, you better put your defense
hat back on. There's really not coming back from a
guy suspected of murdering four people, three girls that live
in the home in their sleep while hours before he
is looking up rape porn where the victims are passed out,
(33:52):
drugged and or sleeping. Good luck with that, Ridder.
Speaker 11 (33:56):
Well, I mean what I will say is the porn,
though disturbing, What does that have to do with the
crime scene other other than you're saying that the targets
of the crime are females. There is there.
Speaker 1 (34:10):
Allegations of sexual assault past.
Speaker 11 (34:15):
That he made them unconscious. I mean the fact that
a crime scene happens to have four females or three
females part of me again and one male that are
believed to be sleeping and maybe we're finding out not now,
is somehow we're going to we're going to tether in
nexus between that and the idea that he was looking
(34:36):
up disturbing porn. I just don't listen. The disturbing porn
bothers me. The crime scene bothers me. I just don't
see the connection between the two. If the prosecution is
going to try to, you know, thread that needle, I
think they're going to have a tough time convincing jurors
of the same thing.
Speaker 1 (34:51):
Bethony Marshall helped me out because Ritter is dancing all
around the fact that this guy was obviously sexually frustrated.
He keeps trying to connect with women he can't. He
had a horrible record back home. Remember he got kicked
out of a bar for asking women where they lived
(35:11):
and telling one woman one woman had a date with
him and he told her she had great breeders' hips.
I mean, he obviously has a problem connecting with women,
and you know that must have frustrated him. No end
taking pictures of girls in their swimsuits, free key. But
the connection between looking up just before the murders rape
(35:37):
porn where the women are drug passed out or asleep
and quote forced his search, not my words, his and
these girls being targeted what he thought was going to
be in their sleep, in their sleep. Girls that he
had connected to I believe online. Whether he had any
(36:00):
conversation with them online, I don't know, but friends of
girls at the pool party. He's a criminologist. He knows
better than to attack anyone he just met at a
pool party. It would be too obvious. Get it, There
is there's a connection here.
Speaker 3 (36:17):
I get it. One possible victim led to another, maybe
like somebody who's trolling the streets for a certain type
and they see a sex worker who's out there, and
so they're not going to target that victim. They're going
to be friend that victim and learn who that's victim,
and learn who that victim's friends are. Right, they're going
to go down the rabbit hole of people who are
(36:37):
more and more obscure and unidentifiable, bit nanty. When offenders offend,
they look at the type of porn that's going to
prime them for the offense. Pedophiles will look at pictures
of children on the line, Rapists will look at assault.
Men who want to commit murder homicide will look at
(36:59):
maybe college students or maybe Ted Bundy. So looking at
the pornography that the offender is using to arouse themselves
ahead of time. That is so vital and so important.
Hopefully a forensic psychologists will be on the stand to
testify to this.
Speaker 1 (37:16):
And we can't ignore that he's looking up Ted Bundy
and girls being attacked in their sleep and Ted Bundy's
my most infamous crime is attacking the sleeping sorority girls
at the ki Omega House in their sleep. Well speaking
a foreign language, here is anybody getting this? He's looking
(37:38):
up Bundy. He's looking up porn, rape porn, Where the
girls are, the victims are asleep, drug passed out, And
that's what Bundy did. And we can't ignore Joe Scott
Morgan that he's looking up Ted Bundy and girls being
attacked in their sleep, and Ted Bundy's my most infamous
(37:59):
crime attacking the sleeping sorority girls at the kai Omega
House in their sleep. Well, I speaking a foreign language,
here is anybody getting this? He's looking up Bundy, He's
looking up porn, rape porn, Where the girls are, the
victims are asleep, drug passed out, And that's what Bundy did.
Speaker 7 (38:22):
Yeah, he did. However, going back to the photo Nancy,
the hoodie photo that we mentioned off the top. One
of the names that came to mind with me was
Ted Kazinsky with Unibomber. You know, Zinsky. Kazinsky had a
PhD in mathematics as well as a master's degree, and
(38:43):
was very bright, socially awkward those sorts of things, and
probably and I think if you read through his you know,
his statements that he made he saw himself as above
everybody else, that everybody else were these kind of groundlings
that were out there that were not worthy of his time.
It seems to me that there's kind of a pattern
with this and the destructive nature of what union Bobber did.
(39:04):
You know, kind of it came out of the blue.
You think about this attack at night where people are asleep.
This is out of the blue. This guy thinks he's
going to escape and not be caught. It's the height
of arrogance. So you know, I think that yeah, Bundy, Yeah,
he was a law student, a failed law student. I
don't think that Coburger intellectually would see himself at that level.
(39:27):
Would he would raise it the bar higher? Probably more
like the Unibomber to Howard Bloom.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
The coincidences are startling that he is searching Bundy, and
then he starts searching rape porn where the victims are
passed out, asleep or drugged. And then these girls, much
like the Ted Bundy victims, are sorority girls living in
a house. He believes they are all going to be
(39:57):
asleep when he enters.
Speaker 2 (39:59):
Is it just a con or is it something that
a jewelry will decide to send a man to the
firing squad? Now going even to the pool party pictures.
When I was interviewing people at the who attended the
pool party, and I was trying to get a sense
of who was there, one of the first things they
did was show me pictures of women in bathing suits
(40:19):
that they had on their phone, and I said, these
are the women who were there.
Speaker 11 (40:22):
You should check them out.
Speaker 2 (40:23):
They too had pictures of women at the pool party
on their phone.
Speaker 1 (40:27):
Can I speak to bloom Bloom? Did they also then
go that night to friends of the women at the
pool party, I start stalking their home in the dark
of night. Did they also look up rape porn where
the victims were in bed to sleep? You know, before the.
Speaker 2 (40:46):
Actually everything you're saying, you're building a case against them,
it might turn out to be true.
Speaker 4 (40:51):
But I'm also saying you questions because you're situation is
using to business and everybody at the pool party did
the same thing.
Speaker 1 (40:59):
Well they did it.
Speaker 2 (41:02):
I'm suggesting that a good defense attorney will raise all
these questions to a jury, and a jury will then
have to decide based on these questions, is this enough
to send a man in front of the firing squad?
Speaker 1 (41:15):
No, that is not the law. The law is the
jury will determine if it's enough to convict him. This
will be a bifer kated trial, and once there is
a conviction, then they will decide the sentence will be.
Not to consider the death penalty, they have to consider
(41:36):
it guilt or innocence first. And I hardly think these
photos are going to send them to the firing squad.
It's going to be as DNA man on the nine
under the victim's body.
Speaker 2 (41:48):
That's the interesting question, is the DNA and what the
defense is going to say, how did the DNA get there?
And that's what they're going to try to argue. But
all these other issues of the photos I think are
immaterial and irrelevant to the trial. And that's why I
think the charges.
Speaker 1 (42:06):
Yeah, tell that to the victims' families, and now we
remember an American hero, Deputy Sheriff Andrew Peery, el Paso
County Sheriff's Colorado, shot and killed in the line of duty.
A US Army vet. He is behind grieving wife Megan,
and two beautiful children sent us to life without their father.
(42:32):
American hero Deputy Sheriff Andrew Peery. Nancy Gray signing off
goodbye friend.
Host
Nancy Grace
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