August 18, 2025 • 41 mins
A new Bryan Kohberger video circulating online sparks concerns of a possible prison leak or an AI creation. The apparent jailhouse video, shot from above, shows Kohberger in a medical cell, hands bright red, placing items on a shelf, and then staring intensely at it.
None of the facilities where Kohberger has been housed have claimed the video came from inside their wards.
A statement from IDOC: "We are aware of the videos circulating online and are investigating the matter.While we cannot yet confirm the veracity of the videos, if verified, they are a clear violation of IDOC policy, and the parties responsible will be held accountable, up to and including termination."
Prosecutors have long said there was no sexual component to the Kohberger murders, but never-before-seen evidence showed multiple shirtless selfies on Kohberger's phone.
Investigators also found Kohberger's sickening internet searches of attacking and raping girls in their sleep. Heather and Jared Barnhart of Cellebrite, experts in digital evidence, were going to testify at trial that Kohberger used search terms for pornography like "passed out," "sleeping," "forced rape," "drugged," and "voyeur." Jared Barnhart says "all of his terms were consistently around non-consensual sex acts."
His sleeping rape fetishes raise questions about his plans for the night of the murder.
Kohberger is currently serving four consecutive life sentences without the possibility of parole at Idaho Maximum Security Institution for the 2022 murders of four University of Idaho students—Kaylee Goncalves, Madison Mogen, Ethan Chapin, and Xana Kernodle.
Joining Nancy Grace today:
- Josh Kolsrud - Criminal Defense Attorney and Former Assistant U.S. Attorney, Founder of Kolsrud Law Offices; Facebook and YouTube @KolsrudLawOffices
- Caryn Stark - Forensic Psychologist, Renowned TV and Radio Trauma Expert and Consultant; Instagram: carynpsych, FB: Caryn Stark Private Practice
- Chris McDonough - Director At the Cold Case Foundation, Former Homicide Detective, Host of YouTube channel, "The Interview Room"
- Heather Barnhart- Lead Digital Forensic Investigator in the Bryan Kohberger case, SANS Institute Fellow (SysAdmin, Audit, Network, and Security) & Senior Director of Forensic Research, Cellebrite [SELL-uh-bright], Co-Author of "Practical Mobile Forensics," now in it's 4th edition, www.sans.org and www.cellebrite.com
- Dr. Priya Banerjee - Board Certified Forensic Pathologist and Anatomic Pathologist, Anchor Forensic Pathology Consulting
- Annie Elise - Creater and CEO of "10 to Life" (a deep dive series analyzing true crime cases), Host of the podcast "SERIALously"
- Dave Mack - 'Crime Stories' Investigative Reporter
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Eerie leaked jail videos of Brian Coburger with bright red
hands red red compared to the rest of his arm
bright red hands as American psycho type shirtless selfies emerged
(00:29):
on his phone. I'm Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories.
I want to thank you for being with us.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
I think it was an insult.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
Don't ever try to convince yourself you mattered just because
someone finally said your name out loud.
Speaker 4 (00:43):
In Cels hate women because they can't get them, because
they got the girl, not him.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
If you hadn't attached them in their sleep in the
middle of the night like a pedophile, Kaylie would have
kicked yours.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Thank you, incredibly seedy, Lee, envious and jealous.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Those last words are from Keilli Gonsolvus's sister speaking at sentencing.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
You know, drop the my girl. You are awesome.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
But to Tonight's stunning reveal, these American psychotype shirtless selfies
and so much more emerging on Brian Coburger's phone. This
as we learn when he leaves the murder scene, and
believe it or not, there's still people fighting online saying
(01:32):
he's innocent and he was framed who himself he pled guilty.
It's emerging now that as he's leaving this horrific.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Crime scene, who does he call mommy? That's freaky.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
But first I've got to get to this leaked sell
video joining me in All Star Pound to make sins
of what we're learning.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Let's look at it, everybody.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Let's look at the video together and straight out to
any at least joining us creator CEO of tent to Life, Annie,
thank you for being with us. Let's look at the Oh,
look at the hands. We're looking at it right now.
I don't know if you can see it on your monitor.
And here he is obsessive, obsessively cleaning the cracks and
(02:16):
the little line that goes around the bottom of your shoe.
What he got it in muddy behind bars? No, but
he's recleaning and re cleaning his shoes and looking around awkwardly,
looks very much. You know, this is telling me something else.
(02:37):
It's telling me that the way he looked and sentencing
and the way he looked in court is how he
really looks, kind of a blank, dead stare.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
Okay, first of all, I want.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
To analyze everything I can glean from this leaked video,
and who leaked it is anybody's guests, you know, Jill's
are falling over themselves to say it's not ours, it's
not ours, Hey, it's somebody's straight out to any at
least any.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
What do you observe in the video?
Speaker 5 (03:07):
I think it's so interesting because of course everybody is
glued to this trying to analyze it, because it's really
the first movements we have seen it for three years
of him, and we know we've heard that he has OCD.
So he's carefully cleaning the shoe. But I think what
strikes everybody as odd is when he's done cleaning it,
he puts that tissue up on top of the cage
(03:28):
and he just stares there, very still, very intently, looking
above the monitor that's in that cage, and almost looks
as though he's just thinking or evaluating it. And it's
really eerie.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
I'm taking a look at him now. Now.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
What was your comment regarding how he would look up
at the shelf.
Speaker 5 (03:48):
Yeah, when he puts it up, you can see a
little bit if you look at his eyes, he's looking
directly above whatever's inside that cage, whether it's a TV screen,
some sort of maybe perhaps a tablet. I don't think
it's tablet though, I don't think he has.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
Access to that.
Speaker 5 (04:02):
And he's almost staring right above it, just looking at it.
I don't know if it's because he's angry at not
throwing it away because he doesn't want to contaminate the
sel I don't know why he wouldn't throw it away.
There's a trash can right there, but it just seems
very bizarre that he would use it to clean so intently.
Speaker 6 (04:18):
Put it in.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
Any elise any ELISEO.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
Hold on, Annie, he can put trash in the trash can.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
It would make the trash can dirty.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
You're right, you remember, hold on, I got to throw
something at you. Hold on just a moment, but I'm
going to go very quickly to Chris McDonough joining me.
Has worked over three hundred homicide cases. I found him
on YouTube on his show The interview Room, former homicide detective.
Remember when he was arrested at his parents' place near
(04:50):
the Poconas, Remember that, and he was Annie, You've got
to remember this. And he was wearing plastic gloves at
like three o'clock in the morning, like a surgeon. And
we're wearing boxer shorts or shorts, and he was taking
trash and putting in plastic bags before the plastic bags
(05:12):
would be put into the trash, and then putting that
trash in the neighbors trash ban. So this guy is
not going to just throw something in the trash can,
especially something that might be dirty where he had re
cleaned his shoes behind bars.
Speaker 7 (05:28):
Nancy, If we take a look at this video, there's
a couple of things that are pretty obvious here. Number
one is it's got to be a medical facility in
terms of a cell withinside of the jail or wherever
this is from, because there are two windows on the wall.
There's one on the door, if you'll notice, and then
there's one on the wall, and then inside of the
(05:48):
trash can there's a plastic bag and on the wall
there's a cord hanging down, and then of course it's
a medical bed and then there's railings around the toilet.
That means one of two things. A's in observation or
B they signed off that he's not a threat to
himself because that bag and that cord would not be
in that room absolutely.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Plus did you see the bedspread? I don't know if
you said that, I didn't hear you say. The bedspread
doesn't look like a uniform bedspread that you would see
in a cell, also in.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
A regular cell.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
I mean you remember the disarray in Jeffrey Epstein's cell,
which is totally totally not sop here. There's too much
stuff in a room if he was on suicide Watch exactly.
Speaker 7 (06:32):
And that bed is a medical bed.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
You can see it.
Speaker 7 (06:35):
I mean even at the top. It's not the railing
on it. Still, so I took her observation here, and
whoever took this.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
Show she did with styrofoam cups in his room?
Speaker 1 (06:47):
Wait a minute, why what is he getting hot coco?
Speaker 2 (06:51):
See those styrofham cups up there on the shelf.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
He's not supposed to have that in his room. Where
is this place?
Speaker 2 (06:59):
No, of course, this video is yett to be verified
by authorities, and the jails are falling all over themselves saying, hey,
we didn't leak it. Somebody leaked it, okay. Why is
he having hot cocoa behind bars? Why does he hat
starfham cups in there?
Speaker 7 (07:12):
Well, that tells us he said two meals because he
comes with a drink and so he's he's saving those
cups for something and the staff is letting them have it.
To your point, So yeah, this is a medical situation.
I think before they put him into isolation, did.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
Somebody bring you hot chocolate in bed? Because nobody brings
me hot chocolate? Why is he getting his How can he?
How is he allowed to keep all that in his room?
Speaker 2 (07:42):
Is totally completely against the ordnance behind bars only I
don't care. But the thing is, he could do something
with all of those items, like it's claimed Epstein did.
He allegedly hung himself. Okay, that's bs. But that said,
that's why inmates are not allowed to have all the
(08:03):
accoutrement with them behind bars. So is he getting his
food in that room? He never leaves to even eat?
Speaker 7 (08:12):
Yeah, I mean, and that's why there are three levels
of observation.
Speaker 8 (08:15):
Right.
Speaker 7 (08:15):
You got the two windows of one on the door,
one on the wall, and of course the video observation.
You've got eyes on this guy at all times, and
maybe this is part of the where docs are looking
at him going okay, he's not doing that, doing that
and that you know, that's out of my pay grade. Right,
But at the same time, maybe this is part of
(08:35):
what are we where are we going to put this guy?
And how off is she just yet?
Speaker 2 (08:40):
Well, another issue is some of the shoes look like
they may have shoelaces.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
That's totally disallowed.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
You put two shoelaces together and suddenly you've got the
means when you can strangle yourself or somebody else.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
Macdona.
Speaker 7 (08:56):
Yeah, yeah, no, you're one hundred percent right, Nancy. And
that's that's why we got to take a fifty to
fifty looking at this thing and saying, Okay, could this
be AI generated and or if it is belonging to
the facility. Those are very legitimate questions that you just
are statements that you just made. He shouldn't have those situations.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
I would not have imagined he would be in a
sale of this nature.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
You know, joining me right now.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
Karen Start, forensic psychologists, renowned TV radio trauma expert and
consultant at Karenstark dot com. Karen, what are you making
of what we are seeing?
Speaker 6 (09:34):
So, Nancy, what we see is somebody who's very, very
anxious and think about who he is. He's a person
who needs to be isolated. He doesn't have contacts in
his phone, only eighteen He keeps himself to except for
his family dependency. He's on his own. And what I'm
looking at is somebody who's very anxious. We know about
(09:56):
the staring, we know about the fact that he has
that looking a eyes, and he's a killer and a monster,
but here he is just looking ahead, looking at his shoes,
very obsessive, compulsive, and I feel like he's extremely anxious
because he's being observed and he's not used to anything
like that. He keeps to himself. Also, the red, the
(10:20):
fact that his hands are red. It's as though you
know he's calling out, I'm in distress. I don't know
what that red is. If he cut himself and he
was bleeding, but he's having a really difficult time. Karen
being the air.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
The red hands say, well, how in the world do
having really red hands equal crying out?
Speaker 1 (10:42):
I'm in distress.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
I mean, I'm just a trial lawyer, but I don't
understand what you just said.
Speaker 6 (10:46):
Well, to me, it's just it doesn't make any sense.
It's very spooky, like why are his hands red and
he knows.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
He's being abl I think I've got a pretty.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Good idea because he washes them obsessively. As we have
discussed in previous programs. He washes his hands to the
point his hands are absolutely cracking open and red.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
That's why his hands are red.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
Okay, so again, I'm just a trial lawyer, but as
a psychoanalyst, what does that tell you?
Speaker 6 (11:17):
Well, that tells me he's obsessive compulsive. That's what he does,
just the way you see him cleaning his shoes. Nancy,
that's exactly what he's doing with his hands. He's doing
it over and over again, and that's how he copes
with his anxiety. He gets fixated on things. And this
is such a great example of somebody who's fixating on
(11:40):
a shoe and then staring at that.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
Shelf whatever is there.
Speaker 6 (11:44):
And if in fact that's why his hands are red,
he just washes them. As you said, over and over
and over.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
Crime Stores with Nancy Gray to any Elise joining us,
what's the word on where this.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
Video came from?
Speaker 2 (12:11):
Is it like in the Shawn Combs Cassi e Venturia
beatdown video where someone is videoing a screen because it
appears I don't understand it appears out of the video.
You can see that storage shelf.
Speaker 5 (12:24):
Yes, you can also see at the very start of
the video the corner of what looks to be a
computer monitor. So I believe that it's somebody who works
inside this facility who maybe wanted to show off to
their friends or family and say, look who's in our
facility who I'm watching? And they're videoing the actual monitor
of the recording inside the cell, and then they share
(12:47):
it with one person. That of course gets shared, ends
up all over the internet and goes viral.
Speaker 4 (12:52):
See those droplets of blood right there, do you know
what that means? He was standing there with a knife
in his hand.
Speaker 7 (12:59):
That is our cur spray where Ethan's throat was cut,
and every heartbeat create that pattern of blood.
Speaker 4 (13:08):
The brutality here that has been exacted on these kids
is unimaginable.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
It's unbelievable.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
In the newly emerged jail house video linked by investigation pending,
the video is infuriating victims' rights advocates who think about
the brutality and how these four beautiful young students were murdered.
And now he has what a penhouse sweet at the jail,
(13:39):
He's got a huge bed by jail house standards as
opposed to a bunk. He has look at this plenty
of walking around room, shelfs multiple pairs of shoes.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
He's he's doing fine.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
The lead video has yet to be verified by authority,
but now his selfies, his freaky American psychotype selfies, are emerging.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
Listen.
Speaker 9 (14:08):
Besides the chilling selfie he took giving the thumbs up
hours after murdering four university students, Coburger's cell phone is
filled with creepy selfies posing shirtless and flexing his muscles.
Had Coburger gone to trial, experts from Celebright would have
testified about Coburger's phone and how he attempted to hide
his movements by powering off his phone with one hundred
(14:30):
percent battery driving to and from the crime scene, and
how his cell phone use would have taken down his alibi,
claiming he was driving around in the dark looking at stars.
Celebright expert Heather Barnhart says, if you're stargazing and taking
pictures of the sky, your phone needs to.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
Be on and joining us right now. A very special guest.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
Heather Barnhardt Lee, digital forensic investigator in the Brian Coburger case,
SAMs Institute fellow that System Administrative Audit, Network and Security
Senior director of forensic research celebrit which we learned way
too much about during the Alexan Marlaud double murder case.
(15:12):
She is also co author of Practical Mobile Forensics. Heather,
thank you so much for being with us. Tell us
what you meant by that statement.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
He had so many selfies on this device. Brian Cooberger
loved himself.
Speaker 10 (15:28):
There was a level of vanity and even if you
look at that image right.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
There, the scrubbing of his knuckles, the redness in his
hands in the cell, he was obsessive.
Speaker 10 (15:36):
He didn't like to be dirty, but he loved to
look at himself. We found cashed YouTube images of Christian
Bale as American psycho, standing in front of.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
A mirror with blood spattered on his face.
Speaker 10 (15:49):
And as you can see in many of these selfies,
he has that same look. He has that same dead
stare in almost this vain appreciation who he is and
what he thinks he is.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
What else did you observe on Kyberger's phone? Oh my gosh.
So he was obsessed with serial killers.
Speaker 10 (16:08):
He searched for non consensual porn acts.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
He also was really paranoid.
Speaker 10 (16:16):
In December, a few days before his arrests, he was
searching for ways to detail his car, possibly get rid
of his car.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
So we know when you're searching for.
Speaker 10 (16:27):
Psychopath paranoia, and I believe I heard he didn't want
to be called a psychopath. He knows he is, and
he was searching for that. He was extremely paranoid, but
also obsessed with just reading the behaviors and lifestyles of
serial killers.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
When you say he would read about the lifestyles of
serial killers, what do you mean?
Speaker 1 (16:47):
What was he looking up? On Christmas night? Right before
It's to the twenty six.
Speaker 10 (16:53):
Brian went to serial killer timelines on Android and he
clicked on link after link two times for Danny Rowling,
Dennis Raider, Ted Bundy, and so many more. But what
he was reading where these serial killers were born, what
type of families they came from, what their crime was,
how they got called, did they ever hurt any pets?
(17:16):
It was extremely creepy. And think about the timeline. It's
Christmas night.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
Most people aren't going to read about serial killers.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
You know, I was looking at your analysis, Heather Barnhart,
and for hours he looked up Betty Lou Beats, Randy Kraft,
William Lee, Danny Rowling, Jewel Rifkin, Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy,
so many others, Rodney el Kowa, Robert Hanson, Gary Ridgeway. Wow,
(17:46):
it just Ed Kemper, one of the worst Dennis Raider
aka buying torture kill BTK. And that is on is
it Christmas night or Christmas Eve night?
Speaker 10 (17:58):
It's on Christmas Night into the hours of the twenty
sixth of December.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
And you said he had a huge cash of American
Psycho saved.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
What they were they steals? Did he actually download the movie?
Speaker 10 (18:12):
They were still shots from YouTube, So it's almost as
if he either captured it or his android captured it
on his behalf as he was watching. He watched Ed
Kemper mannerisms on YouTube. So different things that just don't
make sense, even if your criminology major do not make sense.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
Now that's interesting that you said that, because I imagine
that the defense would be, well, he's a criminology student,
and that's why he's doing this. But you say, and
I agree that it doesn't make sense.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
I have my own reasons, such as he's doing.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
It on Christmas Night number one, but studying it and
getting screen grabs of Christian Bale without a shirt on bail.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
That's not real. Okay, Christian Bale is not a serial killer.
But yet his.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
Getting these shirtless selfies type shots of bail and saving
them and then re enacting them. So that has nothing
to do with his criminology degree.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
But why do you say that, Heather.
Speaker 10 (19:15):
I majored in forensic science. I majored in bloodstain pattern analysis.
You would get research projects. Your research wasn't to research
every single one. And repeatedly he visited Danny Rowling twice
on Christmas night and once earlier in November, so it
was repetitive reading. Almost to me, it felt like bedtime reading,
(19:38):
something that would relax him because he was home with
mother and father, so he didn't need them to put
him to sleep. Instead, he leaned into something like this.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
Heather, do not move a hair? Joining me now?
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Is Josh Colesrude, renowned criminal defense attorney, former assistant US attorney,
founder of coles Rude Law Offices. Josh, do your clients
ever totally scape you out?
Speaker 8 (20:07):
Yes, of course, But you know I try to remain
objective throughout anything. I mean, when I was a prosecutor,
you know, we had situations that are very similar to
this case. As well, and you know, the most important
thing is to remain objective. And when looking at the
jail video in particular, the first thing that I think
(20:27):
about is that if this video is real, that it's
a betrayal of prison security. And if it's not real,
or then.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
You're telling me Brian Coberger had his privacy violated, that's
your worry.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
He's taking screen.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
Grabs of Christian Bale, who plays American Psycho, and storing them.
He's obsessively reading bedtime stories about serial killers on Christmas Night.
And the first thing that comes out of your defense
attorney mouth is his rights have been violated because somebody's
peaked on him as he's shining his shoes.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
Again, do you said that right?
Speaker 8 (21:13):
So what's concerning for me is that number one, the
victims of this crime, their families don't want to keep
seeing Brian Coberger on TV being analyzed and being utalized
into a cult like figure. I mean, people aren't watching
this to learn, They're watching it to peak at a
(21:34):
monster in a cage, and that says more about us
than really then it says him.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
Okay, first you said his rights were violated, and when
I got three inches up your tail pot. You went, oh, erase, erase,
Jurassic erase. What I meant to say is that I'm
all about the victims' families and I don't want them
to have to look at Coburger again. So that's your
backup argument. I'm asking you about creepy clients. At first,
(22:04):
you say Coleburger's rights have been violated because I can
watch them in a cell. Now you're saying what you
meant to say was you were trying to defend the victims.
Speaker 8 (22:13):
There are many reasons why this video is disturbing, and
it's not just for those two reasons. There's also the
idea that even inmates have a right to privacy, and
if you just give that up and you strip that away,
then we erode the foundation of what our entire system
(22:33):
is based on, which is the rule of law, that
it's the justice is blind, that we apply the rules
equally to everyone. And that's what we're trying to say here.
This obsession with seeing Coburger behind bars, it really does
risk quadruple murder into somebody that's a cult like figure
instead of where he belongs, which is forgotten.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
Well, maybe that's your interpretation Cole's rude thing, in my mind,
is turning him into a cult like figure to be
worshiped and admired again. The video has yet to be
verified by authorities. A couple of jails are going, oh,
it's not us. But as you heard earlier, Chris mcdonoughh
was stating, that's not a typical jail cell.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
This looks like it's on a MED unit.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
And I don't think it's going to be a typical
cell in any of two jailhouses I can think of.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
So I went to Josh Cole rude to.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Ask him would he be schemed out basically by a
client who is for enjoyment bedtime reading about all these
serial killers and speaking of Ed Kemper as I recall
and correct me if I'm wrong, I've got a feeling
Heather Barnhart might know the answer to this.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
His first victim was his own grandmother.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
He shot her with a rifle and he said, I
wanted to see what it feels like to shoot up grandma,
words to that effect. So he does have that in
simpatico with Brian Coberger, because I believe he committed the
merger to quote see what.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
It felt like.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
See him reading about Ed Kemper on Christmas Night. That
scheves me out totally. And I have been with a
lot of killers. I've interviewed them, I've prosecuted them, I've
investigated them, I have covered them. I've studied them right
down to their DNA. And I got to tell you something, Heather,
I don't know what Cole's root is talking about.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
Now. He's a victim's rights advocate.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
He is a criminal defense attorney, and a really good
one at that. Heather Kemper, Christmas night, ten o'clock. What
with his pj's tucked into is now? I put some
guys will tuck the shirt into the pants and then
the pants get tucked into the socks.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
I could just totally see that happening.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
And reading about Kemper, whose first victim with his grandma
is own grandma.
Speaker 10 (24:54):
You know when you say grandma, and the way Brian
saved mother and father and even texted where is father?
I won't father answer. It's too many similar behaviors.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
Okay, before you start talking about him, going father, why
want mother pick up the phone?
Speaker 1 (25:14):
That's a whole other can of worms. Can I get?
You know? I got to get this bus to steer
it back in the middle of the road.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
I'm talking about Coburger freakily screen grabbing Christian Bale and
then making replica shirtless Selfie's flexing his muscles. Tell me
about the images ether we found.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
So my husband worked this case with me, so it
was so crazy.
Speaker 10 (25:38):
Imagine our conversations at home, but pictures not only just
forward in the mirror, but.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
From behind, so he would get the.
Speaker 10 (25:45):
Mirror reflection back while he was flexing.
Speaker 11 (25:50):
A location of your emergency? Of the emergency? What is
the rest of the address?
Speaker 6 (26:09):
Oh roads?
Speaker 11 (26:11):
Okay? And there's a a house for and apartment. It's
a house. Can you repeat theadress to make sure that
I have it right.
Speaker 6 (26:19):
I'll talk to you guys were we live at the lights,
so we're next to them.
Speaker 11 (26:24):
I need someone to repeat the address for raification.
Speaker 1 (26:27):
The address one one to two King Roads.
Speaker 12 (26:31):
His searches were not limited to violent porn. Coberger's laptop
searches reveal his obsession with serial killers, co ed killers,
home invasions, burglaries, and psychopaths, and his obsession with the
Gainesville Ripper Danny Rowling. Rolling broke into the homes of
University of Florida students at night, murdering five, four female
and one male, raping the young women, decapitating one of
(26:53):
them and posing her head on the mantle in her home.
Rolling's murder weapon, just like Coburger A Kay barn Coburger
even downloaded a PDF about Rolling on his phone and
watched a YouTube video about a k bar knife, and.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
We wonder where Coburger got his inspiration. Straight back out
to Heather Barnhart, joining US lead digital forensic investigator in
the Brian Coburger case, Heather, the obsession with serial killers
goes much deeper than we were originally led to believe,
(27:29):
and I feel confident if this case had been taken
to a jury, the jury would agree with everything that
you are saying.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
Now.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
The shirtless selfies you were describing that earlier, and taken
by Coburger at various angles that are eerily similar to
screen grabs he had from American Psycho the serial killer,
could you describe them, please, Heather.
Speaker 13 (27:58):
Sure, he would take a sure off and stand in
his bathroom mirror and flex his muscles, but kate photos
of himself from multiple angles, so head on from behind
profile view and it was eerily similar to Christian Bale
in American Psycho, which was also present on his phone.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
Guys, you're saying some of the shots we have a
Coburger and his selfies. Heather, what you are telling us
is far more extensive than what we have been told
about his online searches. I'm curious as to what you
learned about searches as it pertains to attacking women when
(28:42):
they are passed out, drunk and some type of a stupor.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
What did you learn?
Speaker 13 (28:48):
Everything he searched for was non consensual sex acts, so
think rape, sleeping, passed out, voyeurism. Nothing was what we
would tip in digital forensics called normal porn searches.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
We also learn of Ciberger's attempt to erase everything digitally.
Speaker 12 (29:08):
Listen three days after the murders, Coburger runs an eraser
software on his laptop which is used to wipe data
from the hard drive. The Celebrate team uncovers digital evidence
even after Coburger's best effort to scrub anything incriminating from
his laptop and cell phone. They even discovered a pattern
where Coberger went to extreme lengths to try to delete
(29:28):
and hide his digital footprint using VPNs incognito modes and
clearing his browsing history.
Speaker 13 (29:35):
Heather, what does that mean he intended to commit this murder,
all these murders. He purposely powered down his own He
purposely cleaned up data from the device. And what's interesting
is the gap is about a month before the murders
even happened. So what was on that computer that he
needed to hide? That's what always drives me insane with
(29:57):
this investigation.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
What exactly is incognito?
Speaker 13 (30:00):
Incognitom mode is something specific to the Chrome browser that
lets you remain anonymous. It's not supposed to track any
of your browser history. However, just like leading the sheet
behind at the crime scene, he made mistakes. He downloaded
if you bookmark and autofill, so as you're typing things
that you want to see when you're in private browsing
(30:20):
or incognito, autofil remembers it because our computers and phones
want to please us. They know that we are lazy
humans that just want repetitive nature, So it remembers so
it can remind you.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
Crime stores. With Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
Joining us, Annie Elise, creator and CEO of Tend to
Life and Star Off Seriously, I hit podcasts Annie again,
thank you for being with us. It's my understanding that
immediately after the murders, as soon as he turned his
cellphone back on, he called his mother, explain what you know.
Speaker 5 (31:07):
So they spoke on and off throughout the entire day,
and one of those conversations was around ninety minutes long, which,
of course, in hindsight, I would be very curious to
know what those conversations looked like. But it's interesting we
have heard that he is very socially isolated, that Brian
has struggled to form personal pose connections with peers, with partners.
(31:29):
So through my case coverage and other cases, what I've
learned from that is that people who are like often
heavily lean on a parent, usually the mother too. They
want that emotional regulation, they want to feel grounded. So
I think that it makes sense that after the murders
he was trying to find his mom when he couldn't
get a hold of her, That's when he texts his
(31:49):
dad saying father, why did mother not respond? And I
think him calling her repeatedly and just wanting to have
those conversations with her, with her throughout the day could
reflect his need reassurance for feeling grounded, especially if he
was stressed and reeling from these murders.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
Heyler Barnhart with US lead digital forensics investigator in the
Brian Coburger case.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
Is that true his long, long.
Speaker 2 (32:14):
Extended conversations with his mother, including immediately after the murders.
Speaker 13 (32:18):
It's true, and this is typical behavior for Brian Colberger.
He every single morning, as early as five am his
time up until he would finally go to sleep at night,
constantly reaching out to mother and father.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
Okay, joining me, Karen starked roround forensic psychologist, TV radio
trauma expert.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
What does it mean, Karen well A means.
Speaker 6 (32:39):
He never let go of his attachment to his parents, Nancy.
He really didn't have friends, and he was overly dependent
on them, so they were everything to him. When he's anxious,
when something happens, he's calling them and only them, and
at his age, you never see that development. That's because
(33:03):
that's not somebody who's a grown up.
Speaker 2 (33:04):
You know too, Doctor Prea benergy In joining US board
certified forensic pathologist at Anchor Forensics Pathology, Doctor Priya, I'm
trying to figure out because I think there's a tie
in here. What is your analysis of why his hands
are so bright Neon red in that late jailhouse video.
Speaker 14 (33:26):
Oh yes, I think it's uh, you know, the soap's
not the nicest, probably right, And I think that it's
a harsh soap and it is repetitive use. You know,
he's getting basically, he's scrubbing past the surface with irritation.
And I think you can see the repetitive nature of
(33:48):
everything he does and he just can't get clean enough.
And his anxiety is probably playing into it too that
you know, his circumstances are less.
Speaker 6 (33:57):
Than ideal for him and he just can't get.
Speaker 13 (34:00):
Up control over it. And he seems to be like
a control obsessive control freak, if you will.
Speaker 14 (34:05):
And that's really you know, the cycle that he's trying
to break, but he can't.
Speaker 13 (34:11):
And I think it's using the same selp and scrubbing
nature that's really irritating things.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
So, Karen Stark, how does the obsessive hand washing fit
in with the mommy complex?
Speaker 6 (34:22):
Got He's got a lot of problems, Matthew. These are
all psychologtical issues. He's obsessive composent, that's anxiety. So he
spends his time not socially but washing his hands repeatedly
doing things like cleaning the shoes that we saw, and
his obsession with his mom. As you think about it,
(34:45):
it's very eerie because you do not find that when
someone is older. So he's not having any kind of
a social life. He's isolated, he wants to be isolated,
and it's all about his action to his parents. Actually,
I'm surprised that he went off to school because he
(35:06):
can't connect with other people.
Speaker 12 (35:07):
Returning to his apartment after killing four people, Ryan Coberger
calls his mother. He then decides to return to the
scene of the crimes around nine am and has two
conversations with his mother around this time. Forensic analysis of
his phone reveals Coberger had no text with friends or
anyone outside his family other than a single group chat.
He's also extremely awkward and texting with his parents, calling
(35:29):
them mother and father. He likes communicating with his mother
more than his father, and even texted saying why did
mother not respond? Why is she not answering the phone?
Speaker 1 (35:39):
Joining us an all star panel first too.
Speaker 2 (35:41):
Josh Coles Rude, veteran trial lawyer, joining us out of Phoenix.
I find all of the evidence we're learning now to
be very probe to specifically as it relates to clearly
planning the four murders far in advance.
Speaker 1 (35:59):
There's detail, planning, a forethought. That's true.
Speaker 8 (36:02):
However, a prosecutor can lose a case in a variety
of ways that have nothing to do with a defendant's guilt.
So in this case, the FBI used a controversial technique
in order to identify who Brian Koberg is or was,
and that's the investigative genetic genealogy technique where they would
(36:27):
take his the DNA found on the Knight sheet and
they would create a fake profile on a genealogy website
that prohibits law enforcement from doing this kind of behavior,
and then they would plug it in and then ask
the genealogy website if there are any relatives that are
(36:49):
related to the fake profile that they created. And that's
what they did in this case. But that doesn't just
stop there. They gave the information to the local police,
and they told them not to tell everybody.
Speaker 1 (37:02):
They told them.
Speaker 8 (37:03):
To keep it a secret and to pretend like they
had discovered this information on their own.
Speaker 2 (37:08):
To Heather Barnhart, Heather, what else, if anything, did you
find on Coburger's face?
Speaker 13 (37:13):
Oh, my gosh, we found so much, from paranoia looking
for federal wire tapping to even a screenshot of you,
Nancy and Crime Stories from YouTube cash to his device.
I'm sorry, repeate, yes, you it seems as if you
would watch Crime Stories, your show on YouTube and it
was cast to his phone.
Speaker 2 (37:33):
Okay, back to Karen Stark, Oh, what if anything does
that mean?
Speaker 1 (37:37):
Karen?
Speaker 6 (37:38):
If we look at what he's interested in, what he's
obsessed about, when he's Christmas Eve and he's looking at
his phone and he's looking at serial killers, then it
makes perfect sense that he would be watching you and
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. What is a better place?
I can't think of any and to go and to
(37:58):
watch you look at things, look at people who are analyzing,
talk about killers. We talked about serial killers. So it
makes perfect sense to me that you would be primary
on his phone and he would be wanting to check
you out and actually admire you.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
Heather Barnheart, what did you mean by the Was it
a photo or was it our program?
Speaker 1 (38:23):
What did he have in the cash?
Speaker 13 (38:26):
It was YouTube for Crime Story specifically, it would be
him watching YouTube and the phone is just smart enough
and it will take little snippets and snapshots as you're
watching something. So he was watching your show and the
picture of you and the title of Crime Stories was
saved on his device.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
To Chris mcdonnald joining me, who has worked over three
hundred homicides twenty five years in Ellie Star of the
Interview Room on YouTube. Okay, it's typical to ISO isolate
onto say your prosecutor or a particular witness against you,
(39:07):
but that's really freaky.
Speaker 1 (39:11):
Watching Crime Stories and or me to the point his
phone saves it.
Speaker 7 (39:15):
Yeah, I mean, think about that in its totality here, right,
and as I mean, he he's like a scientist who
looks at bugs, you know, and of how he sees
people and what he does with obviously with observing you know,
criminal shows like yourself. Here is he's wanting to learn
(39:36):
from you. So he's seeing you a little bit different.
I mean, if you look at his contacts in his phone,
he set one of his contacts he identifies her as heir. Okay,
now think about that. He has he personalized everything life
down to a singular word and it's not even a name.
(39:58):
So not surprised me at all. You know, we may
not understand the why on this day, we definitely understand
the what okay, what's in his mind? And then what
he did and how he executed it.
Speaker 2 (40:14):
All of the plotting, the planning, the scheming, the malice
of forethought would typically lead a prosecutor to seek the
death penalty when four innocent people were savagely murdered.
Speaker 1 (40:30):
That did not happen.
Speaker 2 (40:32):
And now when everything's all set and done, we're finding
out the truth. Is there any way that fads will
step in and seek the federal death penalty? What more
will we learn about Brian Koburger and who and why
(40:53):
was that video leaked? And Kim Brian Coiberger Get crime
stories behind Bars. Nancy Grace signing off goodbye friend,
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Eerie leaked jail videos of Brian Coburger with bright red
hands red red compared to the rest of his arm
bright red hands as American psycho type shirtless selfies emerged
(00:29):
on his phone. I'm Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories.
I want to thank you for being with us.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
I think it was an insult.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
Don't ever try to convince yourself you mattered just because
someone finally said your name out loud.
Speaker 4 (00:43):
In Cels hate women because they can't get them, because
they got the girl, not him.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
If you hadn't attached them in their sleep in the
middle of the night like a pedophile, Kaylie would have
kicked yours.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Thank you, incredibly seedy, Lee, envious and jealous.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Those last words are from Keilli Gonsolvus's sister speaking at sentencing.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
You know, drop the my girl. You are awesome.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
But to Tonight's stunning reveal, these American psychotype shirtless selfies
and so much more emerging on Brian Coburger's phone. This
as we learn when he leaves the murder scene, and
believe it or not, there's still people fighting online saying
(01:32):
he's innocent and he was framed who himself he pled guilty.
It's emerging now that as he's leaving this horrific.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Crime scene, who does he call mommy? That's freaky.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
But first I've got to get to this leaked sell
video joining me in All Star Pound to make sins
of what we're learning.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Let's look at it, everybody.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Let's look at the video together and straight out to
any at least joining us creator CEO of tent to Life, Annie,
thank you for being with us. Let's look at the Oh,
look at the hands. We're looking at it right now.
I don't know if you can see it on your monitor.
And here he is obsessive, obsessively cleaning the cracks and
(02:16):
the little line that goes around the bottom of your shoe.
What he got it in muddy behind bars? No, but
he's recleaning and re cleaning his shoes and looking around awkwardly,
looks very much. You know, this is telling me something else.
(02:37):
It's telling me that the way he looked and sentencing
and the way he looked in court is how he
really looks, kind of a blank, dead stare.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
Okay, first of all, I want.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
To analyze everything I can glean from this leaked video,
and who leaked it is anybody's guests, you know, Jill's
are falling over themselves to say it's not ours, it's
not ours, Hey, it's somebody's straight out to any at
least any.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
What do you observe in the video?
Speaker 5 (03:07):
I think it's so interesting because of course everybody is
glued to this trying to analyze it, because it's really
the first movements we have seen it for three years
of him, and we know we've heard that he has OCD.
So he's carefully cleaning the shoe. But I think what
strikes everybody as odd is when he's done cleaning it,
he puts that tissue up on top of the cage
(03:28):
and he just stares there, very still, very intently, looking
above the monitor that's in that cage, and almost looks
as though he's just thinking or evaluating it. And it's
really eerie.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
I'm taking a look at him now. Now.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
What was your comment regarding how he would look up
at the shelf.
Speaker 5 (03:48):
Yeah, when he puts it up, you can see a
little bit if you look at his eyes, he's looking
directly above whatever's inside that cage, whether it's a TV screen,
some sort of maybe perhaps a tablet. I don't think
it's tablet though, I don't think he has.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
Access to that.
Speaker 5 (04:02):
And he's almost staring right above it, just looking at it.
I don't know if it's because he's angry at not
throwing it away because he doesn't want to contaminate the
sel I don't know why he wouldn't throw it away.
There's a trash can right there, but it just seems
very bizarre that he would use it to clean so intently.
Speaker 6 (04:18):
Put it in.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
Any elise any ELISEO.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
Hold on, Annie, he can put trash in the trash can.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
It would make the trash can dirty.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
You're right, you remember, hold on, I got to throw
something at you. Hold on just a moment, but I'm
going to go very quickly to Chris McDonough joining me.
Has worked over three hundred homicide cases. I found him
on YouTube on his show The interview Room, former homicide detective.
Remember when he was arrested at his parents' place near
(04:50):
the Poconas, Remember that, and he was Annie, You've got
to remember this. And he was wearing plastic gloves at
like three o'clock in the morning, like a surgeon. And
we're wearing boxer shorts or shorts, and he was taking
trash and putting in plastic bags before the plastic bags
(05:12):
would be put into the trash, and then putting that
trash in the neighbors trash ban. So this guy is
not going to just throw something in the trash can,
especially something that might be dirty where he had re
cleaned his shoes behind bars.
Speaker 7 (05:28):
Nancy, If we take a look at this video, there's
a couple of things that are pretty obvious here. Number
one is it's got to be a medical facility in
terms of a cell withinside of the jail or wherever
this is from, because there are two windows on the wall.
There's one on the door, if you'll notice, and then
there's one on the wall, and then inside of the
(05:48):
trash can there's a plastic bag and on the wall
there's a cord hanging down, and then of course it's
a medical bed and then there's railings around the toilet.
That means one of two things. A's in observation or
B they signed off that he's not a threat to
himself because that bag and that cord would not be
in that room absolutely.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Plus did you see the bedspread? I don't know if
you said that, I didn't hear you say. The bedspread
doesn't look like a uniform bedspread that you would see
in a cell, also in.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
A regular cell.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
I mean you remember the disarray in Jeffrey Epstein's cell,
which is totally totally not sop here. There's too much
stuff in a room if he was on suicide Watch exactly.
Speaker 7 (06:32):
And that bed is a medical bed.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
You can see it.
Speaker 7 (06:35):
I mean even at the top. It's not the railing
on it. Still, so I took her observation here, and
whoever took this.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
Show she did with styrofoam cups in his room?
Speaker 1 (06:47):
Wait a minute, why what is he getting hot coco?
Speaker 2 (06:51):
See those styrofham cups up there on the shelf.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
He's not supposed to have that in his room. Where
is this place?
Speaker 2 (06:59):
No, of course, this video is yett to be verified
by authorities, and the jails are falling all over themselves saying, hey,
we didn't leak it. Somebody leaked it, okay. Why is
he having hot cocoa behind bars? Why does he hat
starfham cups in there?
Speaker 7 (07:12):
Well, that tells us he said two meals because he
comes with a drink and so he's he's saving those
cups for something and the staff is letting them have it.
To your point, So yeah, this is a medical situation.
I think before they put him into isolation, did.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
Somebody bring you hot chocolate in bed? Because nobody brings
me hot chocolate? Why is he getting his How can he?
How is he allowed to keep all that in his room?
Speaker 2 (07:42):
Is totally completely against the ordnance behind bars only I
don't care. But the thing is, he could do something
with all of those items, like it's claimed Epstein did.
He allegedly hung himself. Okay, that's bs. But that said,
that's why inmates are not allowed to have all the
(08:03):
accoutrement with them behind bars. So is he getting his
food in that room? He never leaves to even eat?
Speaker 7 (08:12):
Yeah, I mean, and that's why there are three levels
of observation.
Speaker 8 (08:15):
Right.
Speaker 7 (08:15):
You got the two windows of one on the door,
one on the wall, and of course the video observation.
You've got eyes on this guy at all times, and
maybe this is part of the where docs are looking
at him going okay, he's not doing that, doing that
and that you know, that's out of my pay grade. Right,
But at the same time, maybe this is part of
(08:35):
what are we where are we going to put this guy?
And how off is she just yet?
Speaker 2 (08:40):
Well, another issue is some of the shoes look like
they may have shoelaces.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
That's totally disallowed.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
You put two shoelaces together and suddenly you've got the
means when you can strangle yourself or somebody else.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
Macdona.
Speaker 7 (08:56):
Yeah, yeah, no, you're one hundred percent right, Nancy. And
that's that's why we got to take a fifty to
fifty looking at this thing and saying, Okay, could this
be AI generated and or if it is belonging to
the facility. Those are very legitimate questions that you just
are statements that you just made. He shouldn't have those situations.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
I would not have imagined he would be in a
sale of this nature.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
You know, joining me right now.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
Karen Start, forensic psychologists, renowned TV radio trauma expert and
consultant at Karenstark dot com. Karen, what are you making
of what we are seeing?
Speaker 6 (09:34):
So, Nancy, what we see is somebody who's very, very
anxious and think about who he is. He's a person
who needs to be isolated. He doesn't have contacts in
his phone, only eighteen He keeps himself to except for
his family dependency. He's on his own. And what I'm
looking at is somebody who's very anxious. We know about
(09:56):
the staring, we know about the fact that he has
that looking a eyes, and he's a killer and a monster,
but here he is just looking ahead, looking at his shoes,
very obsessive, compulsive, and I feel like he's extremely anxious
because he's being observed and he's not used to anything
like that. He keeps to himself. Also, the red, the
(10:20):
fact that his hands are red. It's as though you
know he's calling out, I'm in distress. I don't know
what that red is. If he cut himself and he
was bleeding, but he's having a really difficult time. Karen
being the air.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
The red hands say, well, how in the world do
having really red hands equal crying out?
Speaker 1 (10:42):
I'm in distress.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
I mean, I'm just a trial lawyer, but I don't
understand what you just said.
Speaker 6 (10:46):
Well, to me, it's just it doesn't make any sense.
It's very spooky, like why are his hands red and
he knows.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
He's being abl I think I've got a pretty.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Good idea because he washes them obsessively. As we have
discussed in previous programs. He washes his hands to the
point his hands are absolutely cracking open and red.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
That's why his hands are red.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
Okay, so again, I'm just a trial lawyer, but as
a psychoanalyst, what does that tell you?
Speaker 6 (11:17):
Well, that tells me he's obsessive compulsive. That's what he does,
just the way you see him cleaning his shoes. Nancy,
that's exactly what he's doing with his hands. He's doing
it over and over again, and that's how he copes
with his anxiety. He gets fixated on things. And this
is such a great example of somebody who's fixating on
(11:40):
a shoe and then staring at that.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
Shelf whatever is there.
Speaker 6 (11:44):
And if in fact that's why his hands are red,
he just washes them. As you said, over and over
and over.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
Crime Stores with Nancy Gray to any Elise joining us,
what's the word on where this.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
Video came from?
Speaker 2 (12:11):
Is it like in the Shawn Combs Cassi e Venturia
beatdown video where someone is videoing a screen because it
appears I don't understand it appears out of the video.
You can see that storage shelf.
Speaker 5 (12:24):
Yes, you can also see at the very start of
the video the corner of what looks to be a
computer monitor. So I believe that it's somebody who works
inside this facility who maybe wanted to show off to
their friends or family and say, look who's in our
facility who I'm watching? And they're videoing the actual monitor
of the recording inside the cell, and then they share
(12:47):
it with one person. That of course gets shared, ends
up all over the internet and goes viral.
Speaker 4 (12:52):
See those droplets of blood right there, do you know
what that means? He was standing there with a knife
in his hand.
Speaker 7 (12:59):
That is our cur spray where Ethan's throat was cut,
and every heartbeat create that pattern of blood.
Speaker 4 (13:08):
The brutality here that has been exacted on these kids
is unimaginable.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
It's unbelievable.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
In the newly emerged jail house video linked by investigation pending,
the video is infuriating victims' rights advocates who think about
the brutality and how these four beautiful young students were murdered.
And now he has what a penhouse sweet at the jail,
(13:39):
He's got a huge bed by jail house standards as
opposed to a bunk. He has look at this plenty
of walking around room, shelfs multiple pairs of shoes.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
He's he's doing fine.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
The lead video has yet to be verified by authority,
but now his selfies, his freaky American psychotype selfies, are emerging.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
Listen.
Speaker 9 (14:08):
Besides the chilling selfie he took giving the thumbs up
hours after murdering four university students, Coburger's cell phone is
filled with creepy selfies posing shirtless and flexing his muscles.
Had Coburger gone to trial, experts from Celebright would have
testified about Coburger's phone and how he attempted to hide
his movements by powering off his phone with one hundred
(14:30):
percent battery driving to and from the crime scene, and
how his cell phone use would have taken down his alibi,
claiming he was driving around in the dark looking at stars.
Celebright expert Heather Barnhart says, if you're stargazing and taking
pictures of the sky, your phone needs to.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
Be on and joining us right now. A very special guest.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
Heather Barnhardt Lee, digital forensic investigator in the Brian Coburger case,
SAMs Institute fellow that System Administrative Audit, Network and Security
Senior director of forensic research celebrit which we learned way
too much about during the Alexan Marlaud double murder case.
(15:12):
She is also co author of Practical Mobile Forensics. Heather,
thank you so much for being with us. Tell us
what you meant by that statement.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
He had so many selfies on this device. Brian Cooberger
loved himself.
Speaker 10 (15:28):
There was a level of vanity and even if you
look at that image right.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
There, the scrubbing of his knuckles, the redness in his
hands in the cell, he was obsessive.
Speaker 10 (15:36):
He didn't like to be dirty, but he loved to
look at himself. We found cashed YouTube images of Christian
Bale as American psycho, standing in front of.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
A mirror with blood spattered on his face.
Speaker 10 (15:49):
And as you can see in many of these selfies,
he has that same look. He has that same dead
stare in almost this vain appreciation who he is and
what he thinks he is.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
What else did you observe on Kyberger's phone? Oh my gosh.
So he was obsessed with serial killers.
Speaker 10 (16:08):
He searched for non consensual porn acts.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
He also was really paranoid.
Speaker 10 (16:16):
In December, a few days before his arrests, he was
searching for ways to detail his car, possibly get rid
of his car.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
So we know when you're searching for.
Speaker 10 (16:27):
Psychopath paranoia, and I believe I heard he didn't want
to be called a psychopath. He knows he is, and
he was searching for that. He was extremely paranoid, but
also obsessed with just reading the behaviors and lifestyles of
serial killers.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
When you say he would read about the lifestyles of
serial killers, what do you mean?
Speaker 1 (16:47):
What was he looking up? On Christmas night? Right before
It's to the twenty six.
Speaker 10 (16:53):
Brian went to serial killer timelines on Android and he
clicked on link after link two times for Danny Rowling,
Dennis Raider, Ted Bundy, and so many more. But what
he was reading where these serial killers were born, what
type of families they came from, what their crime was,
how they got called, did they ever hurt any pets?
(17:16):
It was extremely creepy. And think about the timeline. It's
Christmas night.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
Most people aren't going to read about serial killers.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
You know, I was looking at your analysis, Heather Barnhart,
and for hours he looked up Betty Lou Beats, Randy Kraft,
William Lee, Danny Rowling, Jewel Rifkin, Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy,
so many others, Rodney el Kowa, Robert Hanson, Gary Ridgeway. Wow,
(17:46):
it just Ed Kemper, one of the worst Dennis Raider
aka buying torture kill BTK. And that is on is
it Christmas night or Christmas Eve night?
Speaker 10 (17:58):
It's on Christmas Night into the hours of the twenty
sixth of December.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
And you said he had a huge cash of American
Psycho saved.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
What they were they steals? Did he actually download the movie?
Speaker 10 (18:12):
They were still shots from YouTube, So it's almost as
if he either captured it or his android captured it
on his behalf as he was watching. He watched Ed
Kemper mannerisms on YouTube. So different things that just don't
make sense, even if your criminology major do not make sense.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
Now that's interesting that you said that, because I imagine
that the defense would be, well, he's a criminology student,
and that's why he's doing this. But you say, and
I agree that it doesn't make sense.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
I have my own reasons, such as he's doing.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
It on Christmas Night number one, but studying it and
getting screen grabs of Christian Bale without a shirt on bail.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
That's not real. Okay, Christian Bale is not a serial killer.
But yet his.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
Getting these shirtless selfies type shots of bail and saving
them and then re enacting them. So that has nothing
to do with his criminology degree.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
But why do you say that, Heather.
Speaker 10 (19:15):
I majored in forensic science. I majored in bloodstain pattern analysis.
You would get research projects. Your research wasn't to research
every single one. And repeatedly he visited Danny Rowling twice
on Christmas night and once earlier in November, so it
was repetitive reading. Almost to me, it felt like bedtime reading,
(19:38):
something that would relax him because he was home with
mother and father, so he didn't need them to put
him to sleep. Instead, he leaned into something like this.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
Heather, do not move a hair? Joining me now?
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Is Josh Colesrude, renowned criminal defense attorney, former assistant US attorney,
founder of coles Rude Law Offices. Josh, do your clients
ever totally scape you out?
Speaker 8 (20:07):
Yes, of course, But you know I try to remain
objective throughout anything. I mean, when I was a prosecutor,
you know, we had situations that are very similar to
this case. As well, and you know, the most important
thing is to remain objective. And when looking at the
jail video in particular, the first thing that I think
(20:27):
about is that if this video is real, that it's
a betrayal of prison security. And if it's not real,
or then.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
You're telling me Brian Coberger had his privacy violated, that's
your worry.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
He's taking screen.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
Grabs of Christian Bale, who plays American Psycho, and storing them.
He's obsessively reading bedtime stories about serial killers on Christmas Night.
And the first thing that comes out of your defense
attorney mouth is his rights have been violated because somebody's
peaked on him as he's shining his shoes.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
Again, do you said that right?
Speaker 8 (21:13):
So what's concerning for me is that number one, the
victims of this crime, their families don't want to keep
seeing Brian Coberger on TV being analyzed and being utalized
into a cult like figure. I mean, people aren't watching
this to learn, They're watching it to peak at a
(21:34):
monster in a cage, and that says more about us
than really then it says him.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
Okay, first you said his rights were violated, and when
I got three inches up your tail pot. You went, oh, erase, erase,
Jurassic erase. What I meant to say is that I'm
all about the victims' families and I don't want them
to have to look at Coburger again. So that's your
backup argument. I'm asking you about creepy clients. At first,
(22:04):
you say Coleburger's rights have been violated because I can
watch them in a cell. Now you're saying what you
meant to say was you were trying to defend the victims.
Speaker 8 (22:13):
There are many reasons why this video is disturbing, and
it's not just for those two reasons. There's also the
idea that even inmates have a right to privacy, and
if you just give that up and you strip that away,
then we erode the foundation of what our entire system
(22:33):
is based on, which is the rule of law, that
it's the justice is blind, that we apply the rules
equally to everyone. And that's what we're trying to say here.
This obsession with seeing Coburger behind bars, it really does
risk quadruple murder into somebody that's a cult like figure
instead of where he belongs, which is forgotten.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
Well, maybe that's your interpretation Cole's rude thing, in my mind,
is turning him into a cult like figure to be
worshiped and admired again. The video has yet to be
verified by authorities. A couple of jails are going, oh,
it's not us. But as you heard earlier, Chris mcdonoughh
was stating, that's not a typical jail cell.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
This looks like it's on a MED unit.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
And I don't think it's going to be a typical
cell in any of two jailhouses I can think of.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
So I went to Josh Cole rude to.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Ask him would he be schemed out basically by a
client who is for enjoyment bedtime reading about all these
serial killers and speaking of Ed Kemper as I recall
and correct me if I'm wrong, I've got a feeling
Heather Barnhart might know the answer to this.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
His first victim was his own grandmother.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
He shot her with a rifle and he said, I
wanted to see what it feels like to shoot up grandma,
words to that effect. So he does have that in
simpatico with Brian Coberger, because I believe he committed the
merger to quote see what.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
It felt like.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
See him reading about Ed Kemper on Christmas Night. That
scheves me out totally. And I have been with a
lot of killers. I've interviewed them, I've prosecuted them, I've
investigated them, I have covered them. I've studied them right
down to their DNA. And I got to tell you something, Heather,
I don't know what Cole's root is talking about.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
Now. He's a victim's rights advocate.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
He is a criminal defense attorney, and a really good
one at that. Heather Kemper, Christmas night, ten o'clock. What
with his pj's tucked into is now? I put some
guys will tuck the shirt into the pants and then
the pants get tucked into the socks.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
I could just totally see that happening.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
And reading about Kemper, whose first victim with his grandma
is own grandma.
Speaker 10 (24:54):
You know when you say grandma, and the way Brian
saved mother and father and even texted where is father?
I won't father answer. It's too many similar behaviors.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
Okay, before you start talking about him, going father, why
want mother pick up the phone?
Speaker 1 (25:14):
That's a whole other can of worms. Can I get?
You know? I got to get this bus to steer
it back in the middle of the road.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
I'm talking about Coburger freakily screen grabbing Christian Bale and
then making replica shirtless Selfie's flexing his muscles. Tell me
about the images ether we found.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
So my husband worked this case with me, so it
was so crazy.
Speaker 10 (25:38):
Imagine our conversations at home, but pictures not only just
forward in the mirror, but.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
From behind, so he would get the.
Speaker 10 (25:45):
Mirror reflection back while he was flexing.
Speaker 11 (25:50):
A location of your emergency? Of the emergency? What is
the rest of the address?
Speaker 6 (26:09):
Oh roads?
Speaker 11 (26:11):
Okay? And there's a a house for and apartment. It's
a house. Can you repeat theadress to make sure that
I have it right.
Speaker 6 (26:19):
I'll talk to you guys were we live at the lights,
so we're next to them.
Speaker 11 (26:24):
I need someone to repeat the address for raification.
Speaker 1 (26:27):
The address one one to two King Roads.
Speaker 12 (26:31):
His searches were not limited to violent porn. Coberger's laptop
searches reveal his obsession with serial killers, co ed killers,
home invasions, burglaries, and psychopaths, and his obsession with the
Gainesville Ripper Danny Rowling. Rolling broke into the homes of
University of Florida students at night, murdering five, four female
and one male, raping the young women, decapitating one of
(26:53):
them and posing her head on the mantle in her home.
Rolling's murder weapon, just like Coburger A Kay barn Coburger
even downloaded a PDF about Rolling on his phone and
watched a YouTube video about a k bar knife, and.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
We wonder where Coburger got his inspiration. Straight back out
to Heather Barnhart, joining US lead digital forensic investigator in
the Brian Coburger case, Heather, the obsession with serial killers
goes much deeper than we were originally led to believe,
(27:29):
and I feel confident if this case had been taken
to a jury, the jury would agree with everything that
you are saying.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
Now.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
The shirtless selfies you were describing that earlier, and taken
by Coburger at various angles that are eerily similar to
screen grabs he had from American Psycho the serial killer,
could you describe them, please, Heather.
Speaker 13 (27:58):
Sure, he would take a sure off and stand in
his bathroom mirror and flex his muscles, but kate photos
of himself from multiple angles, so head on from behind
profile view and it was eerily similar to Christian Bale
in American Psycho, which was also present on his phone.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
Guys, you're saying some of the shots we have a
Coburger and his selfies. Heather, what you are telling us
is far more extensive than what we have been told
about his online searches. I'm curious as to what you
learned about searches as it pertains to attacking women when
(28:42):
they are passed out, drunk and some type of a stupor.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
What did you learn?
Speaker 13 (28:48):
Everything he searched for was non consensual sex acts, so
think rape, sleeping, passed out, voyeurism. Nothing was what we
would tip in digital forensics called normal porn searches.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
We also learn of Ciberger's attempt to erase everything digitally.
Speaker 12 (29:08):
Listen three days after the murders, Coburger runs an eraser
software on his laptop which is used to wipe data
from the hard drive. The Celebrate team uncovers digital evidence
even after Coburger's best effort to scrub anything incriminating from
his laptop and cell phone. They even discovered a pattern
where Coberger went to extreme lengths to try to delete
(29:28):
and hide his digital footprint using VPNs incognito modes and
clearing his browsing history.
Speaker 13 (29:35):
Heather, what does that mean he intended to commit this murder,
all these murders. He purposely powered down his own He
purposely cleaned up data from the device. And what's interesting
is the gap is about a month before the murders
even happened. So what was on that computer that he
needed to hide? That's what always drives me insane with
(29:57):
this investigation.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
What exactly is incognito?
Speaker 13 (30:00):
Incognitom mode is something specific to the Chrome browser that
lets you remain anonymous. It's not supposed to track any
of your browser history. However, just like leading the sheet
behind at the crime scene, he made mistakes. He downloaded
if you bookmark and autofill, so as you're typing things
that you want to see when you're in private browsing
(30:20):
or incognito, autofil remembers it because our computers and phones
want to please us. They know that we are lazy
humans that just want repetitive nature, So it remembers so
it can remind you.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
Crime stores. With Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
Joining us, Annie Elise, creator and CEO of Tend to
Life and Star Off Seriously, I hit podcasts Annie again,
thank you for being with us. It's my understanding that
immediately after the murders, as soon as he turned his
cellphone back on, he called his mother, explain what you know.
Speaker 5 (31:07):
So they spoke on and off throughout the entire day,
and one of those conversations was around ninety minutes long, which,
of course, in hindsight, I would be very curious to
know what those conversations looked like. But it's interesting we
have heard that he is very socially isolated, that Brian
has struggled to form personal pose connections with peers, with partners.
(31:29):
So through my case coverage and other cases, what I've
learned from that is that people who are like often
heavily lean on a parent, usually the mother too. They
want that emotional regulation, they want to feel grounded. So
I think that it makes sense that after the murders
he was trying to find his mom when he couldn't
get a hold of her, That's when he texts his
(31:49):
dad saying father, why did mother not respond? And I
think him calling her repeatedly and just wanting to have
those conversations with her, with her throughout the day could
reflect his need reassurance for feeling grounded, especially if he
was stressed and reeling from these murders.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
Heyler Barnhart with US lead digital forensics investigator in the
Brian Coburger case.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
Is that true his long, long.
Speaker 2 (32:14):
Extended conversations with his mother, including immediately after the murders.
Speaker 13 (32:18):
It's true, and this is typical behavior for Brian Colberger.
He every single morning, as early as five am his
time up until he would finally go to sleep at night,
constantly reaching out to mother and father.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
Okay, joining me, Karen starked roround forensic psychologist, TV radio
trauma expert.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
What does it mean, Karen well A means.
Speaker 6 (32:39):
He never let go of his attachment to his parents, Nancy.
He really didn't have friends, and he was overly dependent
on them, so they were everything to him. When he's anxious,
when something happens, he's calling them and only them, and
at his age, you never see that development. That's because
(33:03):
that's not somebody who's a grown up.
Speaker 2 (33:04):
You know too, Doctor Prea benergy In joining US board
certified forensic pathologist at Anchor Forensics Pathology, Doctor Priya, I'm
trying to figure out because I think there's a tie
in here. What is your analysis of why his hands
are so bright Neon red in that late jailhouse video.
Speaker 14 (33:26):
Oh yes, I think it's uh, you know, the soap's
not the nicest, probably right, And I think that it's
a harsh soap and it is repetitive use. You know,
he's getting basically, he's scrubbing past the surface with irritation.
And I think you can see the repetitive nature of
(33:48):
everything he does and he just can't get clean enough.
And his anxiety is probably playing into it too that
you know, his circumstances are less.
Speaker 6 (33:57):
Than ideal for him and he just can't get.
Speaker 13 (34:00):
Up control over it. And he seems to be like
a control obsessive control freak, if you will.
Speaker 14 (34:05):
And that's really you know, the cycle that he's trying
to break, but he can't.
Speaker 13 (34:11):
And I think it's using the same selp and scrubbing
nature that's really irritating things.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
So, Karen Stark, how does the obsessive hand washing fit
in with the mommy complex?
Speaker 6 (34:22):
Got He's got a lot of problems, Matthew. These are
all psychologtical issues. He's obsessive composent, that's anxiety. So he
spends his time not socially but washing his hands repeatedly
doing things like cleaning the shoes that we saw, and
his obsession with his mom. As you think about it,
(34:45):
it's very eerie because you do not find that when
someone is older. So he's not having any kind of
a social life. He's isolated, he wants to be isolated,
and it's all about his action to his parents. Actually,
I'm surprised that he went off to school because he
(35:06):
can't connect with other people.
Speaker 12 (35:07):
Returning to his apartment after killing four people, Ryan Coberger
calls his mother. He then decides to return to the
scene of the crimes around nine am and has two
conversations with his mother around this time. Forensic analysis of
his phone reveals Coberger had no text with friends or
anyone outside his family other than a single group chat.
He's also extremely awkward and texting with his parents, calling
(35:29):
them mother and father. He likes communicating with his mother
more than his father, and even texted saying why did
mother not respond? Why is she not answering the phone?
Speaker 1 (35:39):
Joining us an all star panel first too.
Speaker 2 (35:41):
Josh Coles Rude, veteran trial lawyer, joining us out of Phoenix.
I find all of the evidence we're learning now to
be very probe to specifically as it relates to clearly
planning the four murders far in advance.
Speaker 1 (35:59):
There's detail, planning, a forethought. That's true.
Speaker 8 (36:02):
However, a prosecutor can lose a case in a variety
of ways that have nothing to do with a defendant's guilt.
So in this case, the FBI used a controversial technique
in order to identify who Brian Koberg is or was,
and that's the investigative genetic genealogy technique where they would
(36:27):
take his the DNA found on the Knight sheet and
they would create a fake profile on a genealogy website
that prohibits law enforcement from doing this kind of behavior,
and then they would plug it in and then ask
the genealogy website if there are any relatives that are
(36:49):
related to the fake profile that they created. And that's
what they did in this case. But that doesn't just
stop there. They gave the information to the local police,
and they told them not to tell everybody.
Speaker 1 (37:02):
They told them.
Speaker 8 (37:03):
To keep it a secret and to pretend like they
had discovered this information on their own.
Speaker 2 (37:08):
To Heather Barnhart, Heather, what else, if anything, did you
find on Coburger's face?
Speaker 13 (37:13):
Oh, my gosh, we found so much, from paranoia looking
for federal wire tapping to even a screenshot of you,
Nancy and Crime Stories from YouTube cash to his device.
I'm sorry, repeate, yes, you it seems as if you
would watch Crime Stories, your show on YouTube and it
was cast to his phone.
Speaker 2 (37:33):
Okay, back to Karen Stark, Oh, what if anything does
that mean?
Speaker 1 (37:37):
Karen?
Speaker 6 (37:38):
If we look at what he's interested in, what he's
obsessed about, when he's Christmas Eve and he's looking at
his phone and he's looking at serial killers, then it
makes perfect sense that he would be watching you and
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. What is a better place?
I can't think of any and to go and to
(37:58):
watch you look at things, look at people who are analyzing,
talk about killers. We talked about serial killers. So it
makes perfect sense to me that you would be primary
on his phone and he would be wanting to check
you out and actually admire you.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
Heather Barnheart, what did you mean by the Was it
a photo or was it our program?
Speaker 1 (38:23):
What did he have in the cash?
Speaker 13 (38:26):
It was YouTube for Crime Story specifically, it would be
him watching YouTube and the phone is just smart enough
and it will take little snippets and snapshots as you're
watching something. So he was watching your show and the
picture of you and the title of Crime Stories was
saved on his device.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
To Chris mcdonnald joining me, who has worked over three
hundred homicides twenty five years in Ellie Star of the
Interview Room on YouTube. Okay, it's typical to ISO isolate
onto say your prosecutor or a particular witness against you,
(39:07):
but that's really freaky.
Speaker 1 (39:11):
Watching Crime Stories and or me to the point his
phone saves it.
Speaker 7 (39:15):
Yeah, I mean, think about that in its totality here, right,
and as I mean, he he's like a scientist who
looks at bugs, you know, and of how he sees
people and what he does with obviously with observing you know,
criminal shows like yourself. Here is he's wanting to learn
(39:36):
from you. So he's seeing you a little bit different.
I mean, if you look at his contacts in his phone,
he set one of his contacts he identifies her as heir. Okay,
now think about that. He has he personalized everything life
down to a singular word and it's not even a name.
(39:58):
So not surprised me at all. You know, we may
not understand the why on this day, we definitely understand
the what okay, what's in his mind? And then what
he did and how he executed it.
Speaker 2 (40:14):
All of the plotting, the planning, the scheming, the malice
of forethought would typically lead a prosecutor to seek the
death penalty when four innocent people were savagely murdered.
Speaker 1 (40:30):
That did not happen.
Speaker 2 (40:32):
And now when everything's all set and done, we're finding
out the truth. Is there any way that fads will
step in and seek the federal death penalty? What more
will we learn about Brian Koburger and who and why
(40:53):
was that video leaked? And Kim Brian Coiberger Get crime
stories behind Bars. Nancy Grace signing off goodbye friend,
Host
Nancy Grace
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