September 23, 2025 • 47 mins
FBI Director Kash Patel has released a statement revealing the FBI is now investigating several
“Conspiracy theories” about Charlie Kirk’s murder are circulating online.
Patel was able to dismiss a theory, but says several others could be credible. They include theories about possible accomplices, the authenticity of the text conversation between Robinson and his roommate, the bullet’s trajectory, and even why Kirk, who normally wears black, was clad in white that day.
Online sleuths are also hung up on the bullet's trajectory, since clear video of the shooting is
still widely available online. Social media users of the younger generations are also questioning the authenticity of Robinson’s text messages to his “surprised” romantic partner.
Gen Z influencers say most single 22-year-olds do not speak in full sentences over text and point out several examples of odd grammar from Robinson. They also question why Robinson writes his father was ‘MAGA’ like he’s mentioning it for the first time, and how Robinson’s roommate could have watched him engrave bullets and not ask questions.
Robinson and his roommate, Lance Twiggs, were known recluses, rarely seen leaving their home except for work and school. However, neighbors noticed an unusual amount of traffic on their street in the weeks leading up to the shooting; many of them were marked with out-of-state plates. Robinson’s sickening porn search history surfaces.
Robinson earned an award on Steam for frequently playing ‘Furry Shades of Gay,’ a collection of ‘choose-your-own adventure’ sex scenes between humanoid animal characters.
On furaffinity.com Robinson follows RedRusker, a controversial artist who previously published “cub porn” between a clearly adult character, and an 8-year-old “possum.”
Over 200,000 people gathered in Arizona for Charlie Kirk’s memorial over the weekend.
Several people memorialized Kirk in powerful speeches, including his wife and both vice presidents.
Vance and President Trump, Turning Point Faith’s Pastor Rob McCoy, and several other close
friends.
Joining Nancy Grace today:
- Franz Borghardt - Criminal Defense Attorney, Founder of Borghardt Law Firm, Former Prosecutor, and Adjust Professor at Louisiana State University Teaching Criminal Litigation; Instagram and Facebook: BorghardtLawFirm
- Dr. Bethany Marshall - Psychoanalyst, Author: "Deal Breaker: When to work on a relationship and when to walk away” Also featured in hit show: "Paris in Love" on Peacock; Instagram & TikTok: drbethanymarshall, Twitter: @DrBethanyLive
- Koa Lorimor - Former Army Sniper
- Chris McDonough - Director at the Cold Case Foundation, Former Homicide Detective (worked over 300 homicides in 25-year career), Trained the First Native American Homicide Task Force; Host of YouTube channel, "The Interview Room"
- Joseph Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author of "Blood Beneath My Feet," and Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan;" X @JoScottForensic
- Victoria Churchill - U.S. Political Reporter for DailyMail.com; Instagram & Facebook: VictoriaSnitsarChurchill,
- Sydney Sumner - Crime Stories Investigative Reporter
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
The FBI says the Charlie current conspiracy theories are legit.
That's the first time we've ever heard that from the government.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Think about it, jfk UFOs. It goes on and on
and on.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
But tonight, Cash Purtel says he is actually investigating the many,
many conspiracy theories surrounding the murder of Charlie Kirk. This
as the suspect's male lover is ied I Nancy Grace,
this is Crime Stories.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
I want to thank you for being with us. Listen.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
Two weeks ago, our countries robbed of one of the
brightest lights of our times.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
My husband Shpriley.
Speaker 4 (00:54):
He wanted to deceive young men, just like the one who.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Took his life, Kirk's wife Erica, wowing the crowd and
sending a message like no other. This as Cash Patel,
the director of the FBI, is literally chasing down conspiracy theories.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
Listen.
Speaker 5 (01:21):
FBI Director Patel now investigating conspiracy theories about Charlie Kirk's murder.
Patel was able to dismiss the theory a Pilo was
involved because they turned off their transponder moments after the shooting,
but says others could be credible. They include theories about accomplices,
authenticity of the text, conversation between Robinson and his roommate,
(01:41):
the bully's trajectory, and even why Kirk, who normally wears black,
was clad in white that day.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
You know, I've never heard the government even acknowledge conspiracy theories,
much less state that they will be investigated with me
an all star panel to make sense of what we
are learning tonight in the Charlie Kirk shooting straight out
to Victoria Churchill joining us from Washington, US political reporter
(02:10):
Dailymail dot com.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Victoria, what is Patel saying? I think Director.
Speaker 6 (02:15):
Patel is saying that he wants to explore everything and
anything connected to this. But this should come as no
surprise because Patel considered Kirk a close friend, a ally
in the MAGA movement and the greater Conservative movement. But
I also do want to point out that Director Patel
and the FBI as a whole maybe have not necessarily
(02:36):
been at the forefront of this investigation despite what they
have said, because of course, Robinson was turned in by
his own father.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
That was I believe it's.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
A little lady whoa They had the suspect in custody
within thirty three hours. Take a look at your crime stats.
That rarely happens. So you know a lot was made
Victoria Churchill the arrest of two individuals, one claiming I
did it. Of course they arrested him. He was cleared
(03:07):
than another. So explain to me you're reasoning.
Speaker 6 (03:11):
So the first individual is somebody who I have heard
from people that have actually been active in Utah politics,
conservative politics in particular in Utah, that this is somebody
that is a known agitator. And so I think there
was no surprise that he was there. But he also
went in for questioning. But again, this is somebody that
didn't like conservatives, so maybe he wanted to claim for
(03:34):
some crazy reason, I don't know why he would want
to do this, but he possibly wanted to claim responsibility
for this. But again, Robinson was turned in by his
own father, So at least at this point, we don't
know how close the FBI would have been to finding
him if he was not submitted by his own father
to the authorities.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Guys, conspiracy theories.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
As they are being called, are now being taken as
legitimate avenues of investis.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Starting with a lot of hand signals.
Speaker 7 (04:03):
Listen, eagle eyed internet sleuth zero in on the behavior
of Kirk's attendance. Just before he was shot, A man
standing six feet from Kirk in a white shirt and
white baseball cap is seen recording the debate on his phone.
Seconds before the shot, that man tips his cap then
wipes his nose. A second man in a black shirt
glances at the man as he adjusts his white cap,
(04:26):
then touches his right arm before folding his arms. Many
theorized the hand signals or indications to the shooter.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Okay, that was investigated, and this is what we found.
Speaker 8 (04:39):
Listen, the man in the white hat was giving signals
to the shooter.
Speaker 6 (04:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 8 (04:45):
The man in the white hat was me. Okay, I
did this with my hat. Maybe I touched my nose
or something while I'm holding my phone because I'm facetiming.
My son and daughter in law, Charlie Kirk was literally
like a son to me. I have three sons. He
was like my fourth son. My three sons are a
little bit older than Charlie. He was like my fourth son.
(05:07):
So when he was hit, if your son got hit,
what would you do?
Speaker 1 (05:13):
What would you do?
Speaker 8 (05:18):
Charlie wasn't there. His eyes were fixed. He wasn't looking
at me. He was looking past me, right into eternity.
He was with Jesus already.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
That is where our friends over at Cross examined the
podcast is speaking.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
Is Frank Terrek. Let's see that video again.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
He is the guy wearing the hat who is making
hand signals just before Kirk is murdered, just.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
Before and you see the other guy.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
In the blue navy or black T shirt.
Speaker 9 (05:56):
You know he's making movements as well, so you know,
straight out to Franz of Borghart joining us, founder of
Borgart Law firm, former prosecutor, professor Louisiana State University.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Franz, thank you for being with us. You know what,
So one theory shot down pretty quickly, and that vote's
ill for the others, but they've got to be investigated.
Have you ever had a crazy theory pop up in
the middle of a trial or during trial prep? PRIs
It's like a false confession. You have to chase it down.
Speaker 10 (06:33):
So as a defense attorney, I love crazy theories, Nancy,
because it creates chaos and it gives me something to
work with, especially in cases where it's open and shut
like this.
Speaker 11 (06:42):
One.
Speaker 10 (06:42):
We know who shot Kurt, we know who. We got
the right guy right, and we can claim that these
individuals behind him are making hand gestures doing the macarena whatever.
But conspiracy doesn't change the facts. And yeah, you're absolutely right.
They have to vet it, the have to investigate it.
I just don't like the head of the FBI making
(07:03):
tweets about it because again, it's giving fuel.
Speaker 11 (07:06):
Put him up to the absturd.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
Okay, right, let me understand this.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Franz Bordhard doesn't like the director of the FBI's tweets. Oh, okay,
you in about half the nation do you think he
cares that Franz Boorguards or anybody doesn't like his tweets?
Speaker 1 (07:26):
What's wrong with his tweets? He's just putting it out there.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
We're used to sub much secrecy within the government, So
what's your problem.
Speaker 10 (07:33):
You can tweet all he wants. The problem is does
he have an active knowledge of the investigation? And if
he doesn't, his tweets create defenses. So, as someone in
the criminal justice system, I only want people making informational
exchanges that have active fingers on the pulse of the investigation.
And heaven forbid, he's just making a tweet about conspiracies
(07:54):
and he doesn't really happen. And look, the head of
agencies don't always have their fingers on the pulse.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
Franz. We don't know what he knows or doesn't know. Okay,
he may know.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
I'm I'm willing to guess he knows more about the
Kirk investigation than we do. However, Cardinal rule number one
from the elected district attorney who I worked for, who
was I believe the greatest elected district attorney in the country,
served thirty seven years, the longest at that time. Don't
(08:27):
speak to the press. It's not that the press or
a multi headed hydra.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
It's that you commit yourself to a theory.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
You put it out there and that could change you
only hurt your case.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
So from me and you to Betel, shut your.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Pie hole right now. These leads may in fact be legitimate.
We don't know that yet. But this hand signal thing,
that was all bs technical legal term. Okay, let's move
on to the next one. And it has to do
with a trajectory.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
Listen.
Speaker 5 (09:01):
Online saluts are also hung up on the bullet's trajectory,
since clear video of the shooting is still widely available online.
Many believe Kirk was wearing a bulletproof vest and the
bullet fractured against the vest, sending a fragment into his neck.
Others believed the shot ricocheted off the turning point banner
behind him, and what was caught on camera was the
bullet exiting from the front of his neck. In an
(09:22):
emotional tribute at his memorial, Erica Kirk said doctors told
her if Charlie had been shot in an operating room,
it wouldn't have made a difference, claiming Kirk was gone instantaneously.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
You know, I used to tell myself the same type
of thing after my fiance was murdered.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
He didn't feel it, he didn't know what happened.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
If he had been shot in the hospital, it wouldn't
have made a difference. I don't know that any of
that's true. Now, can we talk about this Kirk wearing
a bullet proof vest there there's no evidence of that
at all.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
But regarding the exit wound.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
We stated at the get go to just got more
joining as Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood
Beneath My Feet on Amazon, star of a hit podcast
series body bags with Joe Scott Morgan for my purposes,
a death investigator with over one thousand death scenes under
(10:17):
his belt, all sorts, accidental, natural causes, a determined suicide,
and of course homicide Joe Scott Day one, we knew
or had surmised, there was no exit wound.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
There's no conspiracy to that.
Speaker 12 (10:35):
No, there's not. And if that is the idea here,
just follow my logic. You're going to have to get
the surgeon who attended him at the emergency room at
the hospital where he was evacuated to. And you're also
going to have to get the State and Medical Examiner's office,
(10:55):
the forensic pathologist that was involved in this case to
get on board. Also relative to all of this, what
we're hearing right now is that this is a single
gunshot wound to the neck and that the round was
actually found beneath the skin. I don't know why this
is such a mystery. I don't know why people say
that this is an empirical impossibility, Nancy. I've handled a
(11:18):
lot of gunshot wounds involving high velocity rounds where the
bullet does not completely exit the body. It just doesn't
happen every single time, So everybody out there on impact.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
I would say the majority of homicide cases I have
investigated or prosecuted have at least one bullet still in
the body. So I don't understand the uproar about the
fact that his bullet.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Lodged in his neck. First of all, how could it
have lodged in the neck. For me, it's.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
Sop standard operating procedure that at least one bullet stays
in the body. And I'm glad, I mean, if you
can make a silver lining out of.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
A murder, I'm.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Glad the bullet was retrieved from the body because the
next thing we would know, with the conspiracy theory that that's.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
Not the real bullet you found on the ground. That's
not it. Yeah, in place.
Speaker 12 (12:14):
I mean, even if it's fragmented, if you have the
base of the round, you can take that base of
the round and do the testing based upon the rifle
that they did in fact recover and look, if it
doesn't match up, fine and good, go look for another
rifle out there. But if the rifling on this round
that was recovered at autopsy, which would have been at
(12:36):
the Utah State Medical Examiner's office, which let me Reinforce
again is a fine organization and are now being accused
by people online as being part of a grander conspiracy.
If that round was recovered at autopsy, it'll be compared ballistically.
It'll be compared either at the State Crime Lab in
Utah or it'll be compared at Quantico with the FBI's
(12:59):
resource is that they have there. We still don't even
have an autopsy report yet. Let me tell you another
bit of reporting that'll come out also. There will be
surgical notes, so if people have questions about this, this
random surgeon that was on duty, he will write up
a report based upon what he saw in his examination
(13:19):
of Charlie Kirk at that moment, immediately after this had happened.
He will talk about this in great detail. Those records
will be with a state medical examiner. They would have
reviewed them. They will give their own opinion about this.
And I can tell you there was more than one
forensic pathologist in that room while his examination would have
been done, there would have been multiple eyes on this.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
Case joining us shortly. Ballistics expert to show us and
explain to us all about the weapon, the mauser that
was used to kill Charlie Kirk. And the bizarre engravings
on the bullet and exactly how this shot could have
gone down without a conspiracy a group of people helping
(14:06):
the shooter.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
Is it rational? Don't know.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
We'll hear from coh loremore in just one moment. But
versus doctor Bethany Marshall, renown Psychoana I was joining side
of the Beverly Hills jurisdiction, author of deal Breaker. You
can see her now on Peacock and you can find
her at doctor Bethany Marshall dot com. Doctor Bethany, here's
the deal. Yes, some of these firite theories are falling through.
(14:29):
I'm curious why to people? Why can't they just accept
the truth? Why does there have to be a conspiracy?
You know, when Joe Scott and I went to the
scene in Texas where JFK was shot and I examined
it for myself and I reviewed the video, I had
always thought that's just a bunch of hogwash conspiracy. But
when I saw JFK's head go forward from a shot
(14:51):
and then backwards from another shot, I will tell you it'
stopped me in my tracks.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
Also, can we think about Gabby Patito.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
For one moment, if it had not been for an
online sleuth Red Blue and with Shane I believe was
their name, who had been following Gabby's disappearance online and
they saw her white four transit part in dispersed camping,
which is in the middle of nowhere, not a porty potty,
not a water hookup, no lights, nothing out.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
There with the coyotes and the critters.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
They saw that by happenstance, and they solved the case,
the mysteries to where her remains were. So before we
pooh pooh conspiracy theorists, let's keep.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
That in mind.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
But my question to you, Dr Bethany is why can't
people For instance, Joscott was saying, except the bullet did
not exit his neck, bam. What's with the conspiracy theories?
Speaker 13 (15:50):
And one of those conspiracies about why the bullet did
not exit his neck is that he was out there
to save people, and even in death, he saved people
by blocking the bullet from the people behind him. So
we could go on and on. You do, Nancy, conspiracy theorists.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
I don't conspiracy theory.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
That's more of an observation, okay, by the but not
exiting his neck, it potentially may have saved a bystander
from getting shot.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
That's just what used to be. I think it was
that he hadn't talking.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
About zany theories, Like zany a plane was supposed to
take off with the killer. There's a whole group of
theory of supporters helping the shooter. I mean, the theories
are really spinning out, and Patel has to track down everyone.
So explain to me the mindset of a conspiracy theorist.
(16:44):
Next you're gonna be telling me that's not his body
in the coffin a conspiracy.
Speaker 13 (16:48):
A conspiracy theorist believes that if there's a big event,
there's a big cause. They can't believe just that some
crazy guy was on the top of a roof and
shot this guy because he was full of hatred. They
also turn correlation into causation, like if two things seem
remotely similar, there's definitely definitely a causation between the two.
(17:12):
They take random events and they try to form a
pattern out of them, even if there's no pattern at all.
The only pattern I see here, Nancy, is somebody who
was very hateful, who wanted to take Charlie Kirk. That
is the only pattern.
Speaker 14 (17:29):
We have.
Speaker 13 (17:30):
Patterns in forensic science, in psychology.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
This I'm listening to what you're saying, but I want
you to look at your monitor because this is a
perfect example. It looks totally weird, right, it looks Look
at that that looks thing. It looks like a baseball umpire,
the one in the black the dark shirt as well.
And you know, I get where they're coming from. It
was totally unconnected to the shooting. But taking one or
(17:56):
two facts and cobbling them together and coming up with
a theory, why do people do that?
Speaker 1 (18:02):
Is it their need for the truth.
Speaker 13 (18:06):
There's there's a need to feel that our universe is reliable,
that the patterns of this earth are reliable, and there's
an explanation for everything. But they find the explanation in
linking things together that are are there unlinkable. You can't
link somebody with a nervous tick. This guy with the
(18:26):
arms on his shoulder remind me a nervous tick.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
Dare I say it of an a very very old
piece of poetry by Thomas Hardy, As I recall, it's
called hap hap, which is short for happenstance, where Hardy
it pines, I'd rather there be some evil manion, God,
(18:50):
small g that wishes ill on me, that's making me suffer,
as opposed to thinking.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
This is all just by happenstance, just happened.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
I think our minds want to make sense of something
that just happened because it doesn't fit in the order
of our lives.
Speaker 13 (19:12):
But you know, Nancy, this is a part of our
survival mechanism. If if we did not know where a
predator was, we would be more likely to be killed
or eaten. But if we knew where the predator was,
then we could we could save ourselves. Like say our
answers sessors. If they're running through the forest, they're running
from a bear, but they don't know where the bear
(19:32):
is hiding, there's a greater likelihood that they will be killed.
So now, in our modern day society, in the face
of the unknown, we have much greater anxiety. I'm thinking
about patients who are people who get ghosted or canceled,
or somebody doesn't return the call. That is much scary,
scarier for them than if like a new date just
(19:53):
called and said, hey, I'm not that into you. We
all want certainty in our world.
Speaker 14 (19:57):
I'm filing a criminal information charge to Tyler James Robinson, age.
Speaker 11 (20:03):
Twenty two with a following crime.
Speaker 14 (20:07):
Cal one hag remated murder a conto offense or intentionally
for knowingly causing the death and Charlie Hurdy under circumstances
that created a great risk of death to others. Count
two felany discharge of the fight arm causing serious body
(20:28):
injury a first degree FELA.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
Crime. Stores with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 4 (20:42):
That man, that young man, I forgive him.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
I forgive him because it was what Christ did and
is what would do. The answer to hate is not hate.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
That from our friends at turning Point, that is Erica
Kirk forgiving her husband's killer. She's stronger than me. It's
just all I can say. Now Trump has a very
different opinion and is calling for the death penalty.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
That is a whole other can of worms joining us
right now.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
A special guest, former Army sniper ballistics expert CoA Laarmore CoA,
thank you for being with us. As you know, conspiracy
theories are swirling, many of them involving the shooter and
the shot, specifically saying that the shot is impossible for
(21:52):
someone that is not a sharp shooter like yourself.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
First of all, let's just start with A and get
to Z.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
Explain to me the shot as you understand it, that
killed Charlie Kirk.
Speaker 11 (22:05):
The shot is very doable. Charlie Kirk was in a
vulnerable position at the bottom of a fish bowl, right,
the shooter had an elevated position where he could see
pretty much anything. The distance also one hundred and sixty yards,
so at the end of the day with a couple
of range sessions, that's not that far and very doable.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
With a couple of what sessions range.
Speaker 11 (22:27):
So I go into the range a couple of times.
This very very doable shot.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
You know what. I'm glad you said that.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
Hold on co A Chris mcdonne joining me, Director Cole
Case Foundation, former homicide detective, star of the Interview Room
on YouTube. Chris, they better be tracking down every firing
range within a ten to twenty mile radius to see
if they can get the shooter on cam.
Speaker 3 (22:54):
Yeah, no question about it, Nancy. And this investigation obviously
is still very fluid. It's got two prongs to it.
The first one is from the State Bureau of Investigation
there in Utah, and they're under the umbrella of what
they call SAYAK Statewide Information and Analysis Center. Those are
the guys that are chasing most of these conspiracy theories, etc.
(23:16):
And then the second lane here is the FBI. And
what the FBI has done is they've brought in their
evidence teams and they're going to do a laser trajectory
analysis and they're going to match that up to what
CO is talking here. Whether or not the shooter could
have actually shot from that position, it's a no brainer.
I agree with the Doc Morgan and as well as Cola.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
You know, Franz Borghart joining US veteran trial lawyer, former prosecutor, or,
founder Borgheart's law firm. Franz, You're right in that every
one of these conspiracies that are being spun out is
fodder for the defense. Okay, all these that the shot
(24:00):
was impossible, that the perp in custody couldn't have done it,
that's just more fuel for the flame, and some good
defense attorney is going to make hay with that.
Speaker 10 (24:12):
So where there's smoke, there's fire, Nancy, and sometimes there's
smoke screens, And the more chaos a defense attorney can
play with, the more opportunity there is for reasonable doubt
or in this case, possibly getting a juror to say, hey,
I think he did it, but I don't want to
put him to death. So all of this stuff, all
of this stuff is just fuel for what is otherwise
(24:37):
seemingly an open and shutcase against this person.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
Says you.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
You know we thought that about OJ Simpson too, and
Robert Blake and Todd mom Casey Anthony. We always say
open a shut. Well, it ain't legal term, you know what.
Let's get away from flights of fancy and old English literature.
I J Cooe Loremore joining us. Okay, so you're saying
(25:02):
the shot is possible with a few practices.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
At the range.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
What else can you tell me about the weapon that
we believe was used. Next thing we're going to hear
it's not that weapon. It was somebody else's weapon that
hasn't been recovered.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
Tell me about the weapon, yes, Nancy.
Speaker 11 (25:22):
So it was a bolt action rifle, a little bit
older than what I have right here, right, both action
meaning you have to chamber around physically every time you
press the trigger. Now, these rifles are very accurate, and
using that weapon, you can achieve very accurate fire at
(25:43):
longer distances than one hundred and sixty yards.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
Okay, here's my question.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Right there, you said this weapon is very accurate as
compared to what what's not accurate? A daisy B shotgun
for a twelve year old? What do you mean this
one is accurate?
Speaker 1 (25:58):
What about all the others? How is this one one different?
Speaker 11 (26:01):
So the difference between his and others? Right, he had
the advantage of having also a scope on it. Right,
this is going to magnify his target and it's going
to make it a lot easier to shoot. It'll be
a clearer picture, it'll zoom it in. It's just going
to make it overall.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
When you say zoom it in, give me an example,
like if I look through that at an ant one
hundred feet away, what would it look like would be
able to see is a little bit of insect eyes?
Speaker 1 (26:31):
How close are we talking?
Speaker 11 (26:33):
It's like having it in a magnifying glass. So if
you were zooming in on an ant, right, depending on
the magnification, whether that's eight times to twenty times, it
could be the size of a human.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
So, Cole, you're a sharpshooter, But could a regular person
make this shot?
Speaker 11 (26:54):
Yes, I believe a regular person can make this shot.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
I've got a lot of questions.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
First of all, when we say thirty six, we're referring
to the bullet.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
What do you know about the bullet?
Speaker 11 (27:06):
So this is the bullet right here, Nancy. This is
a thirty odd six. It travels at about twenty nine
hundred feet per second. It also is used in Middle
America for big game hunting. Dear L Coggs, so on
and so forth.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
What do you make of claims the bullet could not
have lodged in Charlie Kirk's neck.
Speaker 11 (27:29):
I think definitely anything as possible. I think why people
are saying that is just because it's uncommon. This round
normally goes through people.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
Why I don't get it. Why that bullet typically goes
through and others don't.
Speaker 11 (27:42):
It's a larger round moving in a faster speed. That's
why it's used for hunting big game.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
Ky Well, as you know, conspiracy theories are spinning out
as we speak tonight.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
Next thing you know, we're going to hear the DNA
as in the AJ Simpson case, was planted.
Speaker 2 (27:59):
So explain to me in the real world, not flights
to fancy, where you would expect to find DNA on
the weapon, on the bullets on the casings anywhere and show.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
Me how the DNA would have been left.
Speaker 11 (28:16):
So starting off with the weapon, I definitely would expect
to find DNA here. I'd expect to find it first
and foremost on the trigger right, also right where I'm
holding my hand on the grip of the stock. Also
when you chambering around, you're grabbing this lever, so DNA
is on there as well. And then finally you're going
to put your cheek on the stock, so saliva and
(28:40):
stuff is going to go on here while you're breathing,
your face is on it DNA. This is definitely going
to be a DNA point as well.
Speaker 14 (28:47):
Well.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
How are you getting spit on the gun? What CoA?
Speaker 11 (28:52):
So you're you're breathing when you're taking your shot right,
so your mouth is going to be open right and
could be found right there on the back of the stock.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
That's explaining a lot.
Speaker 11 (29:03):
What about the bullets, so there's definitely gonna be DNA
on there as well. While loading the rounds right, you
have to load them into the chamber the magazine, you're
definitely gonna have DNA on the bullets as well, unless
you're extremely careful using gloves.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
Speaking of the bullets, Cola, Laura.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
More evidence suggests that the killer engraved the bullets.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
That's another question for the strength.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
What lonely dude is sitting at home engraving bullets? But
that said, how in the heck do you engrave bullets?
Speaker 1 (29:42):
CoA?
Speaker 11 (29:43):
So it's very easy, Nancy. First of all, I assume
takes some kind of Dremmel tool right here and that
spins this drill bit and allows you to carve into
the side of the casing or bullet.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
How long would that take? I mean, you have to.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
Have pinpoint precision to engrave a bullet.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
How do you do that? Have you ever seen it done?
Speaker 11 (30:06):
It's actually pretty quick. It's like writing with a marker. Basically,
your handwriting might not be the best, but the message
we'll get across.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
Have you ever seen it done? CoA.
Speaker 11 (30:18):
I've never seen anyone in my line of work engrave
on their bullets.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
Now, because you're normal, okay, You're not hunched over an
engraving desk down in the basement in mommy's house with
a light hanging over your head engraving a bullet.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
So I'm trying to figure out what more evidence I
can get now that you've showed me that tool. I
wonder if one of.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
Those is going to be found in his home that
he shared with his alleged male lover, the allegations of
him being a furry don't care, I care about. Hold
up that tool again, what did you call it? This
is a dremal nancy, but dremmel is actually a brand
(30:59):
name McDonald's or xerox copy. What is the actual tool called.
Speaker 11 (31:05):
It's a rotary grinder.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
A rotary grinder.
Speaker 2 (31:09):
Okay, don't move, Joe Scott Morgan, wan't see and jump in,
Joe Scott.
Speaker 12 (31:13):
Yeah, I was well done by Coda. He described us
down to a t relative to DNA deposition. Two things here.
First off, this weapon it's a ninety it's a Mauser
ninety eight. That means it has an internal mag which
means it's not external where you see external magazine. So
he would have had to the perpetrator would have had
(31:34):
to have loaded this internally. Where you're pushing the rounds down,
a point of contact would probably be the thumb, over
and over and over again until he gets the internal
magazine topped off. Now back to the dremal tool, what's
going to come into play? Here, Nancy is. They're going
to reach out probably to their question Document section. I
(31:57):
would imagine within the FBI, they're going to get samples
of this guy's handwriting and they will try to compare it.
They'll try to compare it to what was left behind
on the casings themselves, on that soft metal casing where
he would have engraved at that point in time. And yeah,
I know that it's kind of a long shot, but
(32:17):
there are just certain things what are referred to as
neuro muscular responses between our eyes and our writing, that
you can't change. There will be features there that will
be identifiable relative to his handwriting.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
Cole Laurenlour, I know you heard all that Joe Scott
just said, which was a lot of information.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
You are a former Army sniper.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
You can make this shot, you say a regular person
could make the shot. How long did you train? What
does that mean to be an army sniper?
Speaker 11 (32:49):
First off, Army sniper school is five weeks long. Also,
I've trained for two years to become an Army sniper.
And then you have follow on scouls which I competed
in the International Sniper competition and I also participated in
Army Mountain Riflemen course, So that's the Army's Mountain sniper school.
Speaker 15 (33:11):
The messages also referred to engraving bullets and a mention
of a scope and the rifle being unique messages from
the contact. Tyler also mentioned that he had changed outfits.
Investigators noted inscriptions that had been engraved on casings found
with the rifle. Inscriptions on a fired casing read notices
(33:35):
bulge's capital wo, what's this question? Mark. Inscriptions on the
three unfired casings read hey fascist, exclamation point, catch exclamation point,
up arrow symbol, right arrow and symbol, and three down
arrow symbols. A second unfired casing read oh belichow belachow,
(33:59):
belichow chow chow, and a third on fired casing read
if you read this, you are gay LMAO.
Speaker 7 (34:08):
Robinson's neighbors speculating about the suspect since he was arrested.
Robinson and his roommate were known recluses, rarely seen leaving
their home except for work in school, and virtually never
entertaining visitors. However, neighbors noticed an unusual amount of traffic
on their street in the weeks leading up to the shooting,
and they did not recognize any of the cars, many
(34:29):
of them marked without of state plates.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
It's called routine evidence, not that it's typical routine, but
evidence of someone's routine. These two, the shooting suspect and
roommate alleged Furry, were recluses to Victoria, Churchill joining US
political reporter dailymail dot com joining us out of DC.
Speaker 1 (34:56):
Is this true? They rarely had people in their home.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
That was very unusual for them, but yet leading up
to the time of the shooting, it it was like
a parking lot, so many cars outside their home.
Speaker 1 (35:13):
Neighbors had never seen that before Victoria.
Speaker 6 (35:16):
This is kind of I think what Erica Kirk, his widow,
was talking about at the memorial on Sunday, that there
is an epidemic of men who are lonely and need
to find a purpose and a calling and a community.
And you know, it seems like these two, outside of
each other, did not have much of that. And you know,
this is a reason why community and I mean just
(35:39):
outside of this case, this is something that gets talked
about a lot by conservatives is to change the politics,
you have to change the culture. And in our culture,
there's a lot of a lack of you know, so
called third spaces where people aren't at home, aren't at work,
or aren't at school, and aren't at home.
Speaker 16 (35:54):
Community gathering and finding like minded individuals, I think is
something that plagues you know, Generation Z, generation Alpha, even
some millennials, particularly men who may not necessarily be more social.
I think women tend to be a little bit more social,
and so you know, it's it's not surprising that these
two and particularly Robinson, who is you know, at least
(36:16):
right now the shooter in this case, that he did
not have a community, did not have a group of
support to make sure And how did you.
Speaker 2 (36:26):
Mean by that, at least right now is the shooter?
Speaker 1 (36:29):
Do you think somebody else is the shooter?
Speaker 6 (36:33):
Well, this is the evidence that we are going off
of right now, as is the FBI, and as is
everyone else.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
Crime stories with Nancy Grace, doctor Bethany Marshall.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
That was a mouthful all of which everything Victoria Churchill
said is true, now true.
Speaker 1 (36:59):
To take what she said and use it in a
murder case, help me out.
Speaker 13 (37:04):
Well, what I would hear in terms of a murder
case is that their primary attachments were online. So if
you want to gather behavioral evidence, you're going to look
at their online activity. Somebody who writes on a bullet
about getting a bulge and then a meme for a
smiley face after that, again, I would think about that
(37:26):
being sexually motivated. I know they were a part of
the furry community, which was all online in this case
in which in which pornography and pretending to be man creature.
Speaker 2 (37:40):
Are you at Windsor Castle, I'm not. We're not having
high tea with Canilla right now. The bullet was engraved
about an erection. That's what this whack adoodle not desist.
He's legally insane. He's thinking about his erection. He's engraving
(38:04):
a bullet about his erection, the bullet he and his
to use to murder Charlie Kirk. Now I'm not a shrink,
but that means something.
Speaker 13 (38:20):
What I think it means that the aggression and the
dominance over another male and the notoriety that it would
bring about was sexually exciting to him. Aggression and sex
go together often for men who are criminals. We see
this with serial killers, we see this with sadistic rapists,
(38:40):
we see this with pedophiles. They try to control the victim,
have power over the victim, and it is sexually exciting
to them. I would think that the motivation for this crime,
while many people conspiracy therapists, theorists, UI, everybody, we would
want to think it's politically motivated, like there would be
something meaningful or reasonable, or at least some type of
(39:03):
a motivation we could understand. I think of this again
as being more sexually motivated. That the aggression and the
violence made him feel like a man, and that's why
he put it on the bullet that went in his
big old phallic symbol, the gun.
Speaker 2 (39:20):
Okay, I've got a question for you. You're saying that to
get motive we're going to have to look at everything
online because he basically had no interaction with anyone except
for his alleged male lover.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
So that's what we're looking at.
Speaker 2 (39:37):
How does his fantasy life regarding furries fit into his
out of body experiences?
Speaker 13 (39:43):
Well, I think with furries there are many aspects of
the furry community, but one aspect is called ERP, which
is erotic role play in which one dresses up as
a furry or as an animal. Other people tell them
what to do, and they create vignettes in which they
interact with each other.
Speaker 1 (40:02):
Now.
Speaker 13 (40:03):
I don't know if he was a voyeur or doing
this online, but this tells me that this guy lives
in a fantasy world, that there is a lot of
role play going on.
Speaker 1 (40:13):
Now.
Speaker 13 (40:14):
Furries also have personalities, or they wear furst suits, so
they mess up as people they are not.
Speaker 2 (40:23):
It's not just furries this guy's interested in. It's not
just his a legend male lover. It's really crossing the line.
Listen to one side in which he's interested.
Speaker 7 (40:38):
Robinson's corned history surfaces. Robinson earned an award on steam
for frequently playing Furry Shades of Gay, a collection of
choose your own adventure sex scenes between humanoid animal characters.
On fur affinity dot com, Robinson follows Red Rusker, a
controversial artist who published cubporn between a clearly adult character
(41:02):
and an eight year old possum. Robinson his friends with
the user who post pornographic cartoons of women with grossly
oversized bellies, sometimes having eaten their partner whole.
Speaker 1 (41:14):
Okay, can you explain that to me?
Speaker 2 (41:17):
It's well to be furry, it's another thing to watch
furry porn with an eight year old possum, which is
clearly an eight year old boy.
Speaker 13 (41:27):
You know, Nancy, because these these furry characters are avatars
of Tyler. Okay, they're his avatar.
Speaker 2 (41:37):
To Chris mcdonne and joining us homicide detective star of
the interview room. You know, the neighbors are stating that
the alleged Purps home was thronged with vehicles, which is
very uncharacteristic. These two were reclusive recluses. You went to
the scene.
Speaker 1 (41:55):
Somebody's got to have door cam, which means the fans
are going to have video of.
Speaker 2 (42:01):
Everybody outside that home. Let's see a shot of the
home that McDonough took.
Speaker 17 (42:07):
Yeah, Natcy, I mean they're they're going to have not
only hopefully some door cam video, but maybe some license
plates as well that are coming in and out of
that you know, neighborhood there, and and you know, talking
about all this furry stuff. I mean, maybe this guy
should just have been booked at the Humane Society because
I mean, this stuff, this stuff is it put.
Speaker 2 (42:29):
Him up is absolutely you know what, This is not
a time for levity. Let's move forward with the adults
and the evidence is what can we make of the
vehicle's part, if anything?
Speaker 17 (42:43):
Yeah, well, it just tells us that there's a secondary
possibility that you know, he's got a lot of friends
that may have had pre incident knowledge about this and
one other thing about the let's talk about the showcasing
again one more time. At his house, they found a
showcasing with additional engraving on it that tells me maybe
(43:04):
they also have the box. And if there's a box,
then there's a lot number on those on that box.
They're gonna chase it down.
Speaker 2 (43:13):
Also, we are hearing conspiracy theories hatched from another neighbor
that sees the alleged slator walking through yacking on his
phone immediately after the shot.
Speaker 1 (43:27):
Question is who's he talking to? Who else knows about
the shooting.
Speaker 5 (43:31):
A homeowner in the neighborhood just off campus where Robinson
stashed his Dodge Challenger turned over doorbell footage of a
man they believe to be Robinson walking past their home
talking on his cell phone just minutes after the shooting.
The homeowners told FBI they heard the man mention the
shooting in his conversation, leading to suggestions Robinson told at
least one other person of his plans and may have
(43:54):
an accomplice.
Speaker 7 (43:55):
Candace Owens published a never before seen photo of Robinson
after shooting. Robinson is seen standing at the counter in
a dairy queen seventeen minutes from campus, in a maroon shirt, jeans,
and wearing a black hat with black sunglasses on top.
Owens claims the photo was taken at six thirty eight
PM while Robinson waited to retrieve his grandfather's rifle.
Speaker 2 (44:17):
That photo on the left from Candasso and Cydney Sumner,
Crime Story's investigative reporter. Even if it even if that
is Robinson, how does that fit into the timeline?
Speaker 1 (44:28):
Well, this fits. It shows that he was still.
Speaker 18 (44:31):
Hanging out in Orum in the area of UVU campus,
waiting to try and get that rifle back. We see
that in that text conversation between Robinson and Lance Twiggs
discussing I'm trying to leave. I wanted to be out
of here by now and to get that gun back,
not only to prevent him from getting caught, but because
(44:54):
that was a family heirloom and he was worried he
would be caught if he didn't have that rifle on him,
which is exactly what his father bought him on later,
send me a picture of your grandfather's rifle and Robinson
couldn't because he didn't have it with it.
Speaker 1 (45:12):
More from Candie Owans, Listen.
Speaker 19 (45:13):
I feel this kid, for some reason, some unknown reason,
is being protected, and I'm not the only one.
Speaker 1 (45:20):
His family feels that way.
Speaker 19 (45:21):
Okay, his family thinks it's odd they don't buy the story. Okay,
Lance's family is telling me that they are not buying
the current story and that they feel that more people
are involved. They think it's odd that the Fed's moved
on from him so quickly, and that the Feds were
being dishonest, and they felt about everything when they first
(45:43):
came out with information that.
Speaker 2 (45:44):
From Candace Owans, have the Feds moved on from him?
To Franz A borcart joining as veteran trial lawyer Franz,
I'm not sure that they've moved on from the roommate.
Just because he's not in custody does not mean they've
dropped his investigation.
Speaker 12 (46:00):
I agree.
Speaker 10 (46:01):
I don't think they've moved on from anybody. And just
because there hasn't been an arrest yet doesn't mean there
won't be in arrests. The Feds are very thorough. They
do a great job with their investigations and look Oftentimes
the FEDS will take their time with co conspirators. Sometimes
co conspirators cooperate against principal actors. So I agree, Nancy,
(46:25):
I don't think we should assume anybody has moved on
from anything with regard to this investigation.
Speaker 2 (46:31):
If you know or think you know anything about the
Kirk shooting, you may think it's insignificant, but it may
not be. Please dial eight zero one five seventy nine
fourteen hundred, repeat eight zero one five seventy nine fourteen hundred,
or go online to tips dot FBI dot gov. And
(46:56):
now we remember an American hero, Sergeant Ryan Hudson Paduka
pid killed in the line of duty after ten years
in l E, leaving behind his grieving wife, Whitney, and
two daughters, Ayana and Layela. American Hero Sergeant Ryan Hudson,
(47:17):
Nancy Grace signing off goodbye friend,
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
The FBI says the Charlie current conspiracy theories are legit.
That's the first time we've ever heard that from the government.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Think about it, jfk UFOs. It goes on and on
and on.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
But tonight, Cash Purtel says he is actually investigating the many,
many conspiracy theories surrounding the murder of Charlie Kirk. This
as the suspect's male lover is ied I Nancy Grace,
this is Crime Stories.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
I want to thank you for being with us. Listen.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
Two weeks ago, our countries robbed of one of the
brightest lights of our times.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
My husband Shpriley.
Speaker 4 (00:54):
He wanted to deceive young men, just like the one who.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Took his life, Kirk's wife Erica, wowing the crowd and
sending a message like no other. This as Cash Patel,
the director of the FBI, is literally chasing down conspiracy theories.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
Listen.
Speaker 5 (01:21):
FBI Director Patel now investigating conspiracy theories about Charlie Kirk's murder.
Patel was able to dismiss the theory a Pilo was
involved because they turned off their transponder moments after the shooting,
but says others could be credible. They include theories about accomplices,
authenticity of the text, conversation between Robinson and his roommate,
(01:41):
the bully's trajectory, and even why Kirk, who normally wears black,
was clad in white that day.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
You know, I've never heard the government even acknowledge conspiracy theories,
much less state that they will be investigated with me
an all star panel to make sense of what we
are learning tonight in the Charlie Kirk shooting straight out
to Victoria Churchill joining us from Washington, US political reporter
(02:10):
Dailymail dot com.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Victoria, what is Patel saying? I think Director.
Speaker 6 (02:15):
Patel is saying that he wants to explore everything and
anything connected to this. But this should come as no
surprise because Patel considered Kirk a close friend, a ally
in the MAGA movement and the greater Conservative movement. But
I also do want to point out that Director Patel
and the FBI as a whole maybe have not necessarily
(02:36):
been at the forefront of this investigation despite what they
have said, because of course, Robinson was turned in by
his own father.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
That was I believe it's.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
A little lady whoa They had the suspect in custody
within thirty three hours. Take a look at your crime stats.
That rarely happens. So you know a lot was made
Victoria Churchill the arrest of two individuals, one claiming I
did it. Of course they arrested him. He was cleared
(03:07):
than another. So explain to me you're reasoning.
Speaker 6 (03:11):
So the first individual is somebody who I have heard
from people that have actually been active in Utah politics,
conservative politics in particular in Utah, that this is somebody
that is a known agitator. And so I think there
was no surprise that he was there. But he also
went in for questioning. But again, this is somebody that
didn't like conservatives, so maybe he wanted to claim for
(03:34):
some crazy reason, I don't know why he would want
to do this, but he possibly wanted to claim responsibility
for this. But again, Robinson was turned in by his
own father, So at least at this point, we don't
know how close the FBI would have been to finding
him if he was not submitted by his own father
to the authorities.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Guys, conspiracy theories.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
As they are being called, are now being taken as
legitimate avenues of investis.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Starting with a lot of hand signals.
Speaker 7 (04:03):
Listen, eagle eyed internet sleuth zero in on the behavior
of Kirk's attendance. Just before he was shot, A man
standing six feet from Kirk in a white shirt and
white baseball cap is seen recording the debate on his phone.
Seconds before the shot, that man tips his cap then
wipes his nose. A second man in a black shirt
glances at the man as he adjusts his white cap,
(04:26):
then touches his right arm before folding his arms. Many
theorized the hand signals or indications to the shooter.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Okay, that was investigated, and this is what we found.
Speaker 8 (04:39):
Listen, the man in the white hat was giving signals
to the shooter.
Speaker 6 (04:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 8 (04:45):
The man in the white hat was me. Okay, I
did this with my hat. Maybe I touched my nose
or something while I'm holding my phone because I'm facetiming.
My son and daughter in law, Charlie Kirk was literally
like a son to me. I have three sons. He
was like my fourth son. My three sons are a
little bit older than Charlie. He was like my fourth son.
(05:07):
So when he was hit, if your son got hit,
what would you do?
Speaker 1 (05:13):
What would you do?
Speaker 8 (05:18):
Charlie wasn't there. His eyes were fixed. He wasn't looking
at me. He was looking past me, right into eternity.
He was with Jesus already.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
That is where our friends over at Cross examined the
podcast is speaking.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
Is Frank Terrek. Let's see that video again.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
He is the guy wearing the hat who is making
hand signals just before Kirk is murdered, just.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
Before and you see the other guy.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
In the blue navy or black T shirt.
Speaker 9 (05:56):
You know he's making movements as well, so you know,
straight out to Franz of Borghart joining us, founder of
Borgart Law firm, former prosecutor, professor Louisiana State University.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Franz, thank you for being with us. You know what,
So one theory shot down pretty quickly, and that vote's
ill for the others, but they've got to be investigated.
Have you ever had a crazy theory pop up in
the middle of a trial or during trial prep? PRIs
It's like a false confession. You have to chase it down.
Speaker 10 (06:33):
So as a defense attorney, I love crazy theories, Nancy,
because it creates chaos and it gives me something to
work with, especially in cases where it's open and shut
like this.
Speaker 11 (06:42):
One.
Speaker 10 (06:42):
We know who shot Kurt, we know who. We got
the right guy right, and we can claim that these
individuals behind him are making hand gestures doing the macarena whatever.
But conspiracy doesn't change the facts. And yeah, you're absolutely right.
They have to vet it, the have to investigate it.
I just don't like the head of the FBI making
(07:03):
tweets about it because again, it's giving fuel.
Speaker 11 (07:06):
Put him up to the absturd.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
Okay, right, let me understand this.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Franz Bordhard doesn't like the director of the FBI's tweets. Oh, okay,
you in about half the nation do you think he
cares that Franz Boorguards or anybody doesn't like his tweets?
Speaker 1 (07:26):
What's wrong with his tweets? He's just putting it out there.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
We're used to sub much secrecy within the government, So
what's your problem.
Speaker 10 (07:33):
You can tweet all he wants. The problem is does
he have an active knowledge of the investigation? And if
he doesn't, his tweets create defenses. So, as someone in
the criminal justice system, I only want people making informational
exchanges that have active fingers on the pulse of the investigation.
And heaven forbid, he's just making a tweet about conspiracies
(07:54):
and he doesn't really happen. And look, the head of
agencies don't always have their fingers on the pulse.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
Franz. We don't know what he knows or doesn't know. Okay,
he may know.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
I'm I'm willing to guess he knows more about the
Kirk investigation than we do. However, Cardinal rule number one
from the elected district attorney who I worked for, who
was I believe the greatest elected district attorney in the country,
served thirty seven years, the longest at that time. Don't
(08:27):
speak to the press. It's not that the press or
a multi headed hydra.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
It's that you commit yourself to a theory.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
You put it out there and that could change you
only hurt your case.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
So from me and you to Betel, shut your.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Pie hole right now. These leads may in fact be legitimate.
We don't know that yet. But this hand signal thing,
that was all bs technical legal term. Okay, let's move
on to the next one. And it has to do
with a trajectory.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
Listen.
Speaker 5 (09:01):
Online saluts are also hung up on the bullet's trajectory,
since clear video of the shooting is still widely available online.
Many believe Kirk was wearing a bulletproof vest and the
bullet fractured against the vest, sending a fragment into his neck.
Others believed the shot ricocheted off the turning point banner
behind him, and what was caught on camera was the
bullet exiting from the front of his neck. In an
(09:22):
emotional tribute at his memorial, Erica Kirk said doctors told
her if Charlie had been shot in an operating room,
it wouldn't have made a difference, claiming Kirk was gone instantaneously.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
You know, I used to tell myself the same type
of thing after my fiance was murdered.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
He didn't feel it, he didn't know what happened.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
If he had been shot in the hospital, it wouldn't
have made a difference. I don't know that any of
that's true. Now, can we talk about this Kirk wearing
a bullet proof vest there there's no evidence of that
at all.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
But regarding the exit wound.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
We stated at the get go to just got more
joining as Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood
Beneath My Feet on Amazon, star of a hit podcast
series body bags with Joe Scott Morgan for my purposes,
a death investigator with over one thousand death scenes under
(10:17):
his belt, all sorts, accidental, natural causes, a determined suicide,
and of course homicide Joe Scott Day one, we knew
or had surmised, there was no exit wound.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
There's no conspiracy to that.
Speaker 12 (10:35):
No, there's not. And if that is the idea here,
just follow my logic. You're going to have to get
the surgeon who attended him at the emergency room at
the hospital where he was evacuated to. And you're also
going to have to get the State and Medical Examiner's office,
(10:55):
the forensic pathologist that was involved in this case to
get on board. Also relative to all of this, what
we're hearing right now is that this is a single
gunshot wound to the neck and that the round was
actually found beneath the skin. I don't know why this
is such a mystery. I don't know why people say
that this is an empirical impossibility, Nancy. I've handled a
(11:18):
lot of gunshot wounds involving high velocity rounds where the
bullet does not completely exit the body. It just doesn't
happen every single time, So everybody out there on impact.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
I would say the majority of homicide cases I have
investigated or prosecuted have at least one bullet still in
the body. So I don't understand the uproar about the
fact that his bullet.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Lodged in his neck. First of all, how could it
have lodged in the neck. For me, it's.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
Sop standard operating procedure that at least one bullet stays
in the body. And I'm glad, I mean, if you
can make a silver lining out of.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
A murder, I'm.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Glad the bullet was retrieved from the body because the
next thing we would know, with the conspiracy theory that that's.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
Not the real bullet you found on the ground. That's
not it. Yeah, in place.
Speaker 12 (12:14):
I mean, even if it's fragmented, if you have the
base of the round, you can take that base of
the round and do the testing based upon the rifle
that they did in fact recover and look, if it
doesn't match up, fine and good, go look for another
rifle out there. But if the rifling on this round
that was recovered at autopsy, which would have been at
(12:36):
the Utah State Medical Examiner's office, which let me Reinforce
again is a fine organization and are now being accused
by people online as being part of a grander conspiracy.
If that round was recovered at autopsy, it'll be compared ballistically.
It'll be compared either at the State Crime Lab in
Utah or it'll be compared at Quantico with the FBI's
(12:59):
resource is that they have there. We still don't even
have an autopsy report yet. Let me tell you another
bit of reporting that'll come out also. There will be
surgical notes, so if people have questions about this, this
random surgeon that was on duty, he will write up
a report based upon what he saw in his examination
(13:19):
of Charlie Kirk at that moment, immediately after this had happened.
He will talk about this in great detail. Those records
will be with a state medical examiner. They would have
reviewed them. They will give their own opinion about this.
And I can tell you there was more than one
forensic pathologist in that room while his examination would have
been done, there would have been multiple eyes on this.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
Case joining us shortly. Ballistics expert to show us and
explain to us all about the weapon, the mauser that
was used to kill Charlie Kirk. And the bizarre engravings
on the bullet and exactly how this shot could have
gone down without a conspiracy a group of people helping
(14:06):
the shooter.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
Is it rational? Don't know.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
We'll hear from coh loremore in just one moment. But
versus doctor Bethany Marshall, renown Psychoana I was joining side
of the Beverly Hills jurisdiction, author of deal Breaker. You
can see her now on Peacock and you can find
her at doctor Bethany Marshall dot com. Doctor Bethany, here's
the deal. Yes, some of these firite theories are falling through.
(14:29):
I'm curious why to people? Why can't they just accept
the truth? Why does there have to be a conspiracy?
You know, when Joe Scott and I went to the
scene in Texas where JFK was shot and I examined
it for myself and I reviewed the video, I had
always thought that's just a bunch of hogwash conspiracy. But
when I saw JFK's head go forward from a shot
(14:51):
and then backwards from another shot, I will tell you it'
stopped me in my tracks.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
Also, can we think about Gabby Patito.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
For one moment, if it had not been for an
online sleuth Red Blue and with Shane I believe was
their name, who had been following Gabby's disappearance online and
they saw her white four transit part in dispersed camping,
which is in the middle of nowhere, not a porty potty,
not a water hookup, no lights, nothing out.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
There with the coyotes and the critters.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
They saw that by happenstance, and they solved the case,
the mysteries to where her remains were. So before we
pooh pooh conspiracy theorists, let's keep.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
That in mind.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
But my question to you, Dr Bethany is why can't
people For instance, Joscott was saying, except the bullet did
not exit his neck, bam. What's with the conspiracy theories?
Speaker 13 (15:50):
And one of those conspiracies about why the bullet did
not exit his neck is that he was out there
to save people, and even in death, he saved people
by blocking the bullet from the people behind him. So
we could go on and on. You do, Nancy, conspiracy theorists.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
I don't conspiracy theory.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
That's more of an observation, okay, by the but not
exiting his neck, it potentially may have saved a bystander
from getting shot.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
That's just what used to be. I think it was
that he hadn't talking.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
About zany theories, Like zany a plane was supposed to
take off with the killer. There's a whole group of
theory of supporters helping the shooter. I mean, the theories
are really spinning out, and Patel has to track down everyone.
So explain to me the mindset of a conspiracy theorist.
(16:44):
Next you're gonna be telling me that's not his body
in the coffin a conspiracy.
Speaker 13 (16:48):
A conspiracy theorist believes that if there's a big event,
there's a big cause. They can't believe just that some
crazy guy was on the top of a roof and
shot this guy because he was full of hatred. They
also turn correlation into causation, like if two things seem
remotely similar, there's definitely definitely a causation between the two.
(17:12):
They take random events and they try to form a
pattern out of them, even if there's no pattern at all.
The only pattern I see here, Nancy, is somebody who
was very hateful, who wanted to take Charlie Kirk. That
is the only pattern.
Speaker 14 (17:29):
We have.
Speaker 13 (17:30):
Patterns in forensic science, in psychology.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
This I'm listening to what you're saying, but I want
you to look at your monitor because this is a
perfect example. It looks totally weird, right, it looks Look
at that that looks thing. It looks like a baseball umpire,
the one in the black the dark shirt as well.
And you know, I get where they're coming from. It
was totally unconnected to the shooting. But taking one or
(17:56):
two facts and cobbling them together and coming up with
a theory, why do people do that?
Speaker 1 (18:02):
Is it their need for the truth.
Speaker 13 (18:06):
There's there's a need to feel that our universe is reliable,
that the patterns of this earth are reliable, and there's
an explanation for everything. But they find the explanation in
linking things together that are are there unlinkable. You can't
link somebody with a nervous tick. This guy with the
(18:26):
arms on his shoulder remind me a nervous tick.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
Dare I say it of an a very very old
piece of poetry by Thomas Hardy, As I recall, it's
called hap hap, which is short for happenstance, where Hardy
it pines, I'd rather there be some evil manion, God,
(18:50):
small g that wishes ill on me, that's making me suffer,
as opposed to thinking.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
This is all just by happenstance, just happened.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
I think our minds want to make sense of something
that just happened because it doesn't fit in the order
of our lives.
Speaker 13 (19:12):
But you know, Nancy, this is a part of our
survival mechanism. If if we did not know where a
predator was, we would be more likely to be killed
or eaten. But if we knew where the predator was,
then we could we could save ourselves. Like say our
answers sessors. If they're running through the forest, they're running
from a bear, but they don't know where the bear
(19:32):
is hiding, there's a greater likelihood that they will be killed.
So now, in our modern day society, in the face
of the unknown, we have much greater anxiety. I'm thinking
about patients who are people who get ghosted or canceled,
or somebody doesn't return the call. That is much scary,
scarier for them than if like a new date just
(19:53):
called and said, hey, I'm not that into you. We
all want certainty in our world.
Speaker 14 (19:57):
I'm filing a criminal information charge to Tyler James Robinson, age.
Speaker 11 (20:03):
Twenty two with a following crime.
Speaker 14 (20:07):
Cal one hag remated murder a conto offense or intentionally
for knowingly causing the death and Charlie Hurdy under circumstances
that created a great risk of death to others. Count
two felany discharge of the fight arm causing serious body
(20:28):
injury a first degree FELA.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
Crime. Stores with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 4 (20:42):
That man, that young man, I forgive him.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
I forgive him because it was what Christ did and
is what would do. The answer to hate is not hate.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
That from our friends at turning Point, that is Erica
Kirk forgiving her husband's killer. She's stronger than me. It's
just all I can say. Now Trump has a very
different opinion and is calling for the death penalty.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
That is a whole other can of worms joining us
right now.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
A special guest, former Army sniper ballistics expert CoA Laarmore CoA,
thank you for being with us. As you know, conspiracy
theories are swirling, many of them involving the shooter and
the shot, specifically saying that the shot is impossible for
(21:52):
someone that is not a sharp shooter like yourself.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
First of all, let's just start with A and get
to Z.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
Explain to me the shot as you understand it, that
killed Charlie Kirk.
Speaker 11 (22:05):
The shot is very doable. Charlie Kirk was in a
vulnerable position at the bottom of a fish bowl, right,
the shooter had an elevated position where he could see
pretty much anything. The distance also one hundred and sixty yards,
so at the end of the day with a couple
of range sessions, that's not that far and very doable.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
With a couple of what sessions range.
Speaker 11 (22:27):
So I go into the range a couple of times.
This very very doable shot.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
You know what. I'm glad you said that.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
Hold on co A Chris mcdonne joining me, Director Cole
Case Foundation, former homicide detective, star of the Interview Room
on YouTube. Chris, they better be tracking down every firing
range within a ten to twenty mile radius to see
if they can get the shooter on cam.
Speaker 3 (22:54):
Yeah, no question about it, Nancy. And this investigation obviously
is still very fluid. It's got two prongs to it.
The first one is from the State Bureau of Investigation
there in Utah, and they're under the umbrella of what
they call SAYAK Statewide Information and Analysis Center. Those are
the guys that are chasing most of these conspiracy theories, etc.
(23:16):
And then the second lane here is the FBI. And
what the FBI has done is they've brought in their
evidence teams and they're going to do a laser trajectory
analysis and they're going to match that up to what
CO is talking here. Whether or not the shooter could
have actually shot from that position, it's a no brainer.
I agree with the Doc Morgan and as well as Cola.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
You know, Franz Borghart joining US veteran trial lawyer, former prosecutor, or,
founder Borgheart's law firm. Franz, You're right in that every
one of these conspiracies that are being spun out is
fodder for the defense. Okay, all these that the shot
(24:00):
was impossible, that the perp in custody couldn't have done it,
that's just more fuel for the flame, and some good
defense attorney is going to make hay with that.
Speaker 10 (24:12):
So where there's smoke, there's fire, Nancy, and sometimes there's
smoke screens, And the more chaos a defense attorney can
play with, the more opportunity there is for reasonable doubt
or in this case, possibly getting a juror to say, hey,
I think he did it, but I don't want to
put him to death. So all of this stuff, all
of this stuff is just fuel for what is otherwise
(24:37):
seemingly an open and shutcase against this person.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
Says you.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
You know we thought that about OJ Simpson too, and
Robert Blake and Todd mom Casey Anthony. We always say
open a shut. Well, it ain't legal term, you know what.
Let's get away from flights of fancy and old English literature.
I J Cooe Loremore joining us. Okay, so you're saying
(25:02):
the shot is possible with a few practices.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
At the range.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
What else can you tell me about the weapon that
we believe was used. Next thing we're going to hear
it's not that weapon. It was somebody else's weapon that
hasn't been recovered.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
Tell me about the weapon, yes, Nancy.
Speaker 11 (25:22):
So it was a bolt action rifle, a little bit
older than what I have right here, right, both action
meaning you have to chamber around physically every time you
press the trigger. Now, these rifles are very accurate, and
using that weapon, you can achieve very accurate fire at
(25:43):
longer distances than one hundred and sixty yards.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
Okay, here's my question.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Right there, you said this weapon is very accurate as
compared to what what's not accurate? A daisy B shotgun
for a twelve year old? What do you mean this
one is accurate?
Speaker 1 (25:58):
What about all the others? How is this one one different?
Speaker 11 (26:01):
So the difference between his and others? Right, he had
the advantage of having also a scope on it. Right,
this is going to magnify his target and it's going
to make it a lot easier to shoot. It'll be
a clearer picture, it'll zoom it in. It's just going
to make it overall.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
When you say zoom it in, give me an example,
like if I look through that at an ant one
hundred feet away, what would it look like would be
able to see is a little bit of insect eyes?
Speaker 1 (26:31):
How close are we talking?
Speaker 11 (26:33):
It's like having it in a magnifying glass. So if
you were zooming in on an ant, right, depending on
the magnification, whether that's eight times to twenty times, it
could be the size of a human.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
So, Cole, you're a sharpshooter, But could a regular person
make this shot?
Speaker 11 (26:54):
Yes, I believe a regular person can make this shot.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
I've got a lot of questions.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
First of all, when we say thirty six, we're referring
to the bullet.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
What do you know about the bullet?
Speaker 11 (27:06):
So this is the bullet right here, Nancy. This is
a thirty odd six. It travels at about twenty nine
hundred feet per second. It also is used in Middle
America for big game hunting. Dear L Coggs, so on
and so forth.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
What do you make of claims the bullet could not
have lodged in Charlie Kirk's neck.
Speaker 11 (27:29):
I think definitely anything as possible. I think why people
are saying that is just because it's uncommon. This round
normally goes through people.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
Why I don't get it. Why that bullet typically goes
through and others don't.
Speaker 11 (27:42):
It's a larger round moving in a faster speed. That's
why it's used for hunting big game.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
Ky Well, as you know, conspiracy theories are spinning out
as we speak tonight.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
Next thing you know, we're going to hear the DNA
as in the AJ Simpson case, was planted.
Speaker 2 (27:59):
So explain to me in the real world, not flights
to fancy, where you would expect to find DNA on
the weapon, on the bullets on the casings anywhere and show.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
Me how the DNA would have been left.
Speaker 11 (28:16):
So starting off with the weapon, I definitely would expect
to find DNA here. I'd expect to find it first
and foremost on the trigger right, also right where I'm
holding my hand on the grip of the stock. Also
when you chambering around, you're grabbing this lever, so DNA
is on there as well. And then finally you're going
to put your cheek on the stock, so saliva and
(28:40):
stuff is going to go on here while you're breathing,
your face is on it DNA. This is definitely going
to be a DNA point as well.
Speaker 14 (28:47):
Well.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
How are you getting spit on the gun? What CoA?
Speaker 11 (28:52):
So you're you're breathing when you're taking your shot right,
so your mouth is going to be open right and
could be found right there on the back of the stock.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
That's explaining a lot.
Speaker 11 (29:03):
What about the bullets, so there's definitely gonna be DNA
on there as well. While loading the rounds right, you
have to load them into the chamber the magazine, you're
definitely gonna have DNA on the bullets as well, unless
you're extremely careful using gloves.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
Speaking of the bullets, Cola, Laura.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
More evidence suggests that the killer engraved the bullets.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
That's another question for the strength.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
What lonely dude is sitting at home engraving bullets? But
that said, how in the heck do you engrave bullets?
Speaker 1 (29:42):
CoA?
Speaker 11 (29:43):
So it's very easy, Nancy. First of all, I assume
takes some kind of Dremmel tool right here and that
spins this drill bit and allows you to carve into
the side of the casing or bullet.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
How long would that take? I mean, you have to.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
Have pinpoint precision to engrave a bullet.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
How do you do that? Have you ever seen it done?
Speaker 11 (30:06):
It's actually pretty quick. It's like writing with a marker. Basically,
your handwriting might not be the best, but the message
we'll get across.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
Have you ever seen it done? CoA.
Speaker 11 (30:18):
I've never seen anyone in my line of work engrave
on their bullets.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
Now, because you're normal, okay, You're not hunched over an
engraving desk down in the basement in mommy's house with
a light hanging over your head engraving a bullet.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
So I'm trying to figure out what more evidence I
can get now that you've showed me that tool. I
wonder if one of.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
Those is going to be found in his home that
he shared with his alleged male lover, the allegations of
him being a furry don't care, I care about. Hold
up that tool again, what did you call it? This
is a dremal nancy, but dremmel is actually a brand
(30:59):
name McDonald's or xerox copy. What is the actual tool called.
Speaker 11 (31:05):
It's a rotary grinder.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
A rotary grinder.
Speaker 2 (31:09):
Okay, don't move, Joe Scott Morgan, wan't see and jump in,
Joe Scott.
Speaker 12 (31:13):
Yeah, I was well done by Coda. He described us
down to a t relative to DNA deposition. Two things here.
First off, this weapon it's a ninety it's a Mauser
ninety eight. That means it has an internal mag which
means it's not external where you see external magazine. So
he would have had to the perpetrator would have had
(31:34):
to have loaded this internally. Where you're pushing the rounds down,
a point of contact would probably be the thumb, over
and over and over again until he gets the internal
magazine topped off. Now back to the dremal tool, what's
going to come into play? Here, Nancy is. They're going
to reach out probably to their question Document section. I
(31:57):
would imagine within the FBI, they're going to get samples
of this guy's handwriting and they will try to compare it.
They'll try to compare it to what was left behind
on the casings themselves, on that soft metal casing where
he would have engraved at that point in time. And yeah,
I know that it's kind of a long shot, but
(32:17):
there are just certain things what are referred to as
neuro muscular responses between our eyes and our writing, that
you can't change. There will be features there that will
be identifiable relative to his handwriting.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
Cole Laurenlour, I know you heard all that Joe Scott
just said, which was a lot of information.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
You are a former Army sniper.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
You can make this shot, you say a regular person
could make the shot. How long did you train? What
does that mean to be an army sniper?
Speaker 11 (32:49):
First off, Army sniper school is five weeks long. Also,
I've trained for two years to become an Army sniper.
And then you have follow on scouls which I competed
in the International Sniper competition and I also participated in
Army Mountain Riflemen course, So that's the Army's Mountain sniper school.
Speaker 15 (33:11):
The messages also referred to engraving bullets and a mention
of a scope and the rifle being unique messages from
the contact. Tyler also mentioned that he had changed outfits.
Investigators noted inscriptions that had been engraved on casings found
with the rifle. Inscriptions on a fired casing read notices
(33:35):
bulge's capital wo, what's this question? Mark. Inscriptions on the
three unfired casings read hey fascist, exclamation point, catch exclamation point,
up arrow symbol, right arrow and symbol, and three down
arrow symbols. A second unfired casing read oh belichow belachow,
(33:59):
belichow chow chow, and a third on fired casing read
if you read this, you are gay LMAO.
Speaker 7 (34:08):
Robinson's neighbors speculating about the suspect since he was arrested.
Robinson and his roommate were known recluses, rarely seen leaving
their home except for work in school, and virtually never
entertaining visitors. However, neighbors noticed an unusual amount of traffic
on their street in the weeks leading up to the shooting,
and they did not recognize any of the cars, many
(34:29):
of them marked without of state plates.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
It's called routine evidence, not that it's typical routine, but
evidence of someone's routine. These two, the shooting suspect and
roommate alleged Furry, were recluses to Victoria, Churchill joining US
political reporter dailymail dot com joining us out of DC.
Speaker 1 (34:56):
Is this true? They rarely had people in their home.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
That was very unusual for them, but yet leading up
to the time of the shooting, it it was like
a parking lot, so many cars outside their home.
Speaker 1 (35:13):
Neighbors had never seen that before Victoria.
Speaker 6 (35:16):
This is kind of I think what Erica Kirk, his widow,
was talking about at the memorial on Sunday, that there
is an epidemic of men who are lonely and need
to find a purpose and a calling and a community.
And you know, it seems like these two, outside of
each other, did not have much of that. And you know,
this is a reason why community and I mean just
(35:39):
outside of this case, this is something that gets talked
about a lot by conservatives is to change the politics,
you have to change the culture. And in our culture,
there's a lot of a lack of you know, so
called third spaces where people aren't at home, aren't at work,
or aren't at school, and aren't at home.
Speaker 16 (35:54):
Community gathering and finding like minded individuals, I think is
something that plagues you know, Generation Z, generation Alpha, even
some millennials, particularly men who may not necessarily be more social.
I think women tend to be a little bit more social,
and so you know, it's it's not surprising that these
two and particularly Robinson, who is you know, at least
(36:16):
right now the shooter in this case, that he did
not have a community, did not have a group of
support to make sure And how did you.
Speaker 2 (36:26):
Mean by that, at least right now is the shooter?
Speaker 1 (36:29):
Do you think somebody else is the shooter?
Speaker 6 (36:33):
Well, this is the evidence that we are going off
of right now, as is the FBI, and as is
everyone else.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
Crime stories with Nancy Grace, doctor Bethany Marshall.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
That was a mouthful all of which everything Victoria Churchill
said is true, now true.
Speaker 1 (36:59):
To take what she said and use it in a
murder case, help me out.
Speaker 13 (37:04):
Well, what I would hear in terms of a murder
case is that their primary attachments were online. So if
you want to gather behavioral evidence, you're going to look
at their online activity. Somebody who writes on a bullet
about getting a bulge and then a meme for a
smiley face after that, again, I would think about that
(37:26):
being sexually motivated. I know they were a part of
the furry community, which was all online in this case
in which in which pornography and pretending to be man creature.
Speaker 2 (37:40):
Are you at Windsor Castle, I'm not. We're not having
high tea with Canilla right now. The bullet was engraved
about an erection. That's what this whack adoodle not desist.
He's legally insane. He's thinking about his erection. He's engraving
(38:04):
a bullet about his erection, the bullet he and his
to use to murder Charlie Kirk. Now I'm not a shrink,
but that means something.
Speaker 13 (38:20):
What I think it means that the aggression and the
dominance over another male and the notoriety that it would
bring about was sexually exciting to him. Aggression and sex
go together often for men who are criminals. We see
this with serial killers, we see this with sadistic rapists,
(38:40):
we see this with pedophiles. They try to control the victim,
have power over the victim, and it is sexually exciting
to them. I would think that the motivation for this crime,
while many people conspiracy therapists, theorists, UI, everybody, we would
want to think it's politically motivated, like there would be
something meaningful or reasonable, or at least some type of
(39:03):
a motivation we could understand. I think of this again
as being more sexually motivated. That the aggression and the
violence made him feel like a man, and that's why
he put it on the bullet that went in his
big old phallic symbol, the gun.
Speaker 2 (39:20):
Okay, I've got a question for you. You're saying that to
get motive we're going to have to look at everything
online because he basically had no interaction with anyone except
for his alleged male lover.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
So that's what we're looking at.
Speaker 2 (39:37):
How does his fantasy life regarding furries fit into his
out of body experiences?
Speaker 13 (39:43):
Well, I think with furries there are many aspects of
the furry community, but one aspect is called ERP, which
is erotic role play in which one dresses up as
a furry or as an animal. Other people tell them
what to do, and they create vignettes in which they
interact with each other.
Speaker 1 (40:02):
Now.
Speaker 13 (40:03):
I don't know if he was a voyeur or doing
this online, but this tells me that this guy lives
in a fantasy world, that there is a lot of
role play going on.
Speaker 1 (40:13):
Now.
Speaker 13 (40:14):
Furries also have personalities, or they wear furst suits, so
they mess up as people they are not.
Speaker 2 (40:23):
It's not just furries this guy's interested in. It's not
just his a legend male lover. It's really crossing the line.
Listen to one side in which he's interested.
Speaker 7 (40:38):
Robinson's corned history surfaces. Robinson earned an award on steam
for frequently playing Furry Shades of Gay, a collection of
choose your own adventure sex scenes between humanoid animal characters.
On fur affinity dot com, Robinson follows Red Rusker, a
controversial artist who published cubporn between a clearly adult character
(41:02):
and an eight year old possum. Robinson his friends with
the user who post pornographic cartoons of women with grossly
oversized bellies, sometimes having eaten their partner whole.
Speaker 1 (41:14):
Okay, can you explain that to me?
Speaker 2 (41:17):
It's well to be furry, it's another thing to watch
furry porn with an eight year old possum, which is
clearly an eight year old boy.
Speaker 13 (41:27):
You know, Nancy, because these these furry characters are avatars
of Tyler. Okay, they're his avatar.
Speaker 2 (41:37):
To Chris mcdonne and joining us homicide detective star of
the interview room. You know, the neighbors are stating that
the alleged Purps home was thronged with vehicles, which is
very uncharacteristic. These two were reclusive recluses. You went to
the scene.
Speaker 1 (41:55):
Somebody's got to have door cam, which means the fans
are going to have video of.
Speaker 2 (42:01):
Everybody outside that home. Let's see a shot of the
home that McDonough took.
Speaker 17 (42:07):
Yeah, Natcy, I mean they're they're going to have not
only hopefully some door cam video, but maybe some license
plates as well that are coming in and out of
that you know, neighborhood there, and and you know, talking
about all this furry stuff. I mean, maybe this guy
should just have been booked at the Humane Society because
I mean, this stuff, this stuff is it put.
Speaker 2 (42:29):
Him up is absolutely you know what, This is not
a time for levity. Let's move forward with the adults
and the evidence is what can we make of the
vehicle's part, if anything?
Speaker 17 (42:43):
Yeah, well, it just tells us that there's a secondary
possibility that you know, he's got a lot of friends
that may have had pre incident knowledge about this and
one other thing about the let's talk about the showcasing
again one more time. At his house, they found a
showcasing with additional engraving on it that tells me maybe
(43:04):
they also have the box. And if there's a box,
then there's a lot number on those on that box.
They're gonna chase it down.
Speaker 2 (43:13):
Also, we are hearing conspiracy theories hatched from another neighbor
that sees the alleged slator walking through yacking on his
phone immediately after the shot.
Speaker 1 (43:27):
Question is who's he talking to? Who else knows about
the shooting.
Speaker 5 (43:31):
A homeowner in the neighborhood just off campus where Robinson
stashed his Dodge Challenger turned over doorbell footage of a
man they believe to be Robinson walking past their home
talking on his cell phone just minutes after the shooting.
The homeowners told FBI they heard the man mention the
shooting in his conversation, leading to suggestions Robinson told at
least one other person of his plans and may have
(43:54):
an accomplice.
Speaker 7 (43:55):
Candace Owens published a never before seen photo of Robinson
after shooting. Robinson is seen standing at the counter in
a dairy queen seventeen minutes from campus, in a maroon shirt, jeans,
and wearing a black hat with black sunglasses on top.
Owens claims the photo was taken at six thirty eight
PM while Robinson waited to retrieve his grandfather's rifle.
Speaker 2 (44:17):
That photo on the left from Candasso and Cydney Sumner,
Crime Story's investigative reporter. Even if it even if that
is Robinson, how does that fit into the timeline?
Speaker 1 (44:28):
Well, this fits. It shows that he was still.
Speaker 18 (44:31):
Hanging out in Orum in the area of UVU campus,
waiting to try and get that rifle back. We see
that in that text conversation between Robinson and Lance Twiggs
discussing I'm trying to leave. I wanted to be out
of here by now and to get that gun back,
not only to prevent him from getting caught, but because
(44:54):
that was a family heirloom and he was worried he
would be caught if he didn't have that rifle on him,
which is exactly what his father bought him on later,
send me a picture of your grandfather's rifle and Robinson
couldn't because he didn't have it with it.
Speaker 1 (45:12):
More from Candie Owans, Listen.
Speaker 19 (45:13):
I feel this kid, for some reason, some unknown reason,
is being protected, and I'm not the only one.
Speaker 1 (45:20):
His family feels that way.
Speaker 19 (45:21):
Okay, his family thinks it's odd they don't buy the story. Okay,
Lance's family is telling me that they are not buying
the current story and that they feel that more people
are involved. They think it's odd that the Fed's moved
on from him so quickly, and that the Feds were
being dishonest, and they felt about everything when they first
(45:43):
came out with information that.
Speaker 2 (45:44):
From Candace Owans, have the Feds moved on from him?
To Franz A borcart joining as veteran trial lawyer Franz,
I'm not sure that they've moved on from the roommate.
Just because he's not in custody does not mean they've
dropped his investigation.
Speaker 12 (46:00):
I agree.
Speaker 10 (46:01):
I don't think they've moved on from anybody. And just
because there hasn't been an arrest yet doesn't mean there
won't be in arrests. The Feds are very thorough. They
do a great job with their investigations and look Oftentimes
the FEDS will take their time with co conspirators. Sometimes
co conspirators cooperate against principal actors. So I agree, Nancy,
(46:25):
I don't think we should assume anybody has moved on
from anything with regard to this investigation.
Speaker 2 (46:31):
If you know or think you know anything about the
Kirk shooting, you may think it's insignificant, but it may
not be. Please dial eight zero one five seventy nine
fourteen hundred, repeat eight zero one five seventy nine fourteen hundred,
or go online to tips dot FBI dot gov. And
(46:56):
now we remember an American hero, Sergeant Ryan Hudson Paduka
pid killed in the line of duty after ten years
in l E, leaving behind his grieving wife, Whitney, and
two daughters, Ayana and Layela. American Hero Sergeant Ryan Hudson,
(47:17):
Nancy Grace signing off goodbye friend,
Host
Nancy Grace
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