September 19, 2023 • 40 mins
Nine-year-old Debbie Randall is abducted while walking home from the laundromat, just yards from her family's apartment.
Sixteen days later, her brutalized body is found dumped eight miles away. Despite law enforcement's best efforts, the seemingly random killer has been unidentified for nearly 50 years. Investigators discover a small rag inside Randall's vaginal cavity and initial testing reveals a partial DNA sample. The sample is sent through CODIS, but no one in the prison system, not even executed prisoners, is a match.
As DNA testing improves, investigators use genetic genealogy to find the killer. William Rose, 24 at the time of the murders, committed suicide just two years after Randall's murder. Randall's brother says he believes the weight of what Rose did to Debbie led Rose to take his own life.
Joining Nancy Grace Today:
- Melvin Randall - Brother of Debbie Lynn Randall
- Flynn D. Broady Jr. - Cobb County District Attorney
- Dr. Angela Arnold – Psychiatrist, Atlanta GA. Expert in the Treatment of Pregnant/Postpartum Women, Former Assistant Professor of Psychiatry, Obstetrics, and Gynecology: at Emory University, Former Medical Director of The Psychiatric Ob-Gyn Clinic at Grady Memorial Hospital
- Morris Nix – Former Detective, Cobb County Cold Case Unit
- Joe Scott Morgan – Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet," and Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan;" Twitter: @JoScottForensic
- Toby Wolson - Forensic Consultant Specializing in DNA, Serology, and Bloodstain Pattern Analysis
- Jessica Noll - Investigative Journalist, Co-Host, and Producer of the “The Investigators” Podcast
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Crime Stories with Nancy Greece.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
An absolutely precious little nine year old girl goes missing,
literally yards away from her home from the laundromat. A
frantic search ensues. Volunteers find Debbie's body. She has been horribly,
(00:43):
horribly sex assaulted. She's dead years past. The case goes
cold in the last days. An amazing twist in the
case of a beautiful little girl, Debbie Lynn Randall. I'm
(01:09):
Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being
with us here at Fox Nation and Serious xem one eleven.
First of all, take a listen to the elected District
Attorney in Cobb County, Flynn D. Brodie, Junior.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
Today we are here to provide an answer and perhaps
some sembilance of closure to the family of Debbie Lynn Randall,
whose young life and bright smile ended fifty one years ago,
gone too soon at the age of nine years old.
On January thirteenth, nineteen seventy two, Debbie Lynn Randall, a
third grade student at Pine Forest Elementary School, was walking
(01:48):
home from the laundromat when she was abducted, raped, and killed.
The laundrymat was only a half block away from her home.
She was found sixteen days long after an extensive search
from the community which over four thousand members participated, she
was assaulted and strangled to death.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Yes, she was assaulted. Yes, this little girl was strangled
to death with me an all star panel, including the
elected district Attorney Da Brody Jr. And the detective who
stuck by this case and never gave up A man
I consider now to be a friend Morris Nix. I
(02:32):
remember when he first approached me about this case and
beg begged to bring awareness to Debbie's case. He stuck
with it from the get go, and he is here
with us today. First, I want to go to Joseph
Scott Morgan, renowned professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University,
(02:55):
author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon and star
of Body Bags. With Joseph Scott Morgan, Joe Scott, it's
always thank you for being with us to state that
this little girl nine years old. Now, Joe Scott, you
remember when your baby was in the third grade? You remember,
Oh yeah, sure do. What happened to Debbie Lynne Randalled.
Speaker 4 (03:20):
Her assault is something that nightmares are made of. She
was all by herself and was snatched. I think that
it was, at least in these circumstances, it appears to
be a crime of opportunity, and she was taken away
and taken to an area where she could be assaulted
(03:42):
in private, essentially, and she wound up dying.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
You know when you say assaulted, When you say assaulted,
that is a legal term for rape, a sodomy that
means vaginal or anal, forced penetration, forced intercourse, or oral
(04:09):
vaginal anal oral. Those are sex assaults. Please, Joe Scott,
I understand you're coming from a place of professionalism, but
we're not in court. I want the truth and I
don't care how bad it is. What happened to Debbie Randall,
(04:30):
nine years old, third grade. What happened to her?
Speaker 4 (04:34):
She was beaten and strangled to death, Nancy, and it
on top of being sexually assaulted and left out in
essentially an isolated area. Now, this is a young girl
that had been part of a family and she was
out there alone. And I think probably one of the
(04:56):
most poignant comments about this along the way that I
have seen is that the last vision that she had
was probably staring into the eyes of her killer, who
had been assaulting her all along and had just completely
and totally brutalized with me.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
In addition to the elected District Attorney Flynn D. Brody
Junior in Cobb County, Morris Nix is with us former
detective with the Cobb County Cold Case Unit, Morris, Yes,
could you explain the facts surrounding Debbie's disappearance and murder
(05:33):
as well as this nine year old little girl's rate?
Speaker 5 (05:37):
Nancy, First of all, I want to listen her to
understand to what he just raped, who had ripped openness.
This was a vicious, sadist attack. This man was not
just a pedophile, he was a sadist. And if you
ever saw the photograph, they would haunt you forever. Why
(05:59):
because it was so brutal and I you know, you
just hard to wrap your head around what she may
have seen and felt before she died.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Do you remember the rag that was found of the scene.
Speaker 6 (06:13):
I do.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Where was the rag?
Speaker 5 (06:15):
The rag was placed in her vaginal area. And the
reason we believed that happened was she was abducted at
a lagomat. She was taken to another location and assaulted.
The Emmy's office said that had he not strangled her,
she would have bled to death. That's how bad it was.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
Vaginal bleeding correct, from the rape.
Speaker 5 (06:36):
Correct, and from ripping her opening. I think some kind
of foreign object was used.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Guys, I know that it is so hard to hear,
but this is what happened to this nine year old
little girl. I want to go to Flynn D. Brody, Junior,
the elected DA in Cobb County. You know if I
may call you Flynn, Yeah, we are used to. I mean,
there's no telling how many cases you have tried and
(07:04):
investigated before you became the District Attorney in Cobb. We
are used to, Flynn. I remember the first time I
had to say a curse word in front of a
jury in Fulton County. The words I had never said before.
I don't mean damn or hell or the F word.
(07:26):
I mean a lot worse than that. And I had
to actually say it out loud in my car on
the way to work that morning so I could say
it with a straight face. This two regular people, not
people like us who are in this business, who seek
(07:48):
justice every day. No matter how awful the facts are,
it's very, very difficult to enunciate, to tell people what
happened to Debbie Randall and I just want to thank
you the elected district Attorney Marris Nicks, and the incredible
(08:09):
scientists who have finally brought a resolution. Do you know
how many nights I've gone to sleep and thought about
Debbie Randall and thought about Mars Nicks still working the case.
I mean, Flynn, could you explain what it takes to
(08:29):
do a job like yours and stand in front of
a jury on a case this horrific or never get
answers on a case this horrific?
Speaker 7 (08:38):
Nancy, I think you said it. You know, many times
we see the facts, we see the pictures, and we
get so attached to our victims, we get attached to
wanting to find justice for him, to bring people to
be accountable for the things of their actions that they've taken.
You know, I applaud Detective Nicks for the work that
(09:00):
he's done on this case. I said earlier that the
emotion that he showed at the press conference showed that
he was vested in this case, just as all prosecutors are.
You know, as a prosecutor, you don't do this for
the money. You don't do this for fame or any
accolade or anything. You do it for the victims. You
do it for the individuals who have no voice. You
(09:23):
have to speak for them so you can bring justice
for them, for those families, and in this case, fifty
one years for the Randall family. Fifty one years it
took for us to solve this case. But in the
end it was solved, some closure was brought, and mister Randall,
Melvin was so forgiving of mister of the Rose family.
(09:49):
I just really my heart goes out to him for
all the things that this family must have gone through,
and for many of us. You know, we have children
of our own, and every time we see a victim,
we see our own kid.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
Can I tell you what happened just this past week, Flynn. Guys,
you're hearing not only Joe Scott Morgan, but Morris Nicks,
the former detective who stayed on this case until the
bitter end, and Flynn Brody, I'm shortly gonna be joined
by Debbie's brother, Melvin Randall. Flynn Morris just this past week,
(10:27):
and my son, who is fifteen is now six ' five.
All right, I was watching my daughter, she's a football
manager for the JB JV football team, and I was
just watching her. It was pouring rain. It was starting
to get dark. We were at an away game and
(10:49):
I was sitting there and seeing that the game finally ended,
and I let my son run off with his little friend. Okay,
I couldn't find him, Flynn. I called him and called him,
and he's usually got his phone glued to his ear.
No answer, no answer, no answer. I finally did lie
three sixty Flynn. His phone was in a field behind.
(11:11):
I think it was a quality end out on a strip.
I all I could think about where cases, just like
Debbie Randall, where at first appearance, they're like, oh they'll
be back, they've wandered off. They're here, they're there, there,
they're with their friends. And the more I called, and
the more I called and couldn't get him, I could
(11:33):
just feel it rising up in my chest. Well, the
end of the story, guess where he was, Flynn. Guess
what was behind that quality end the soccer field. The
soccer field was in a different place in the school,
and they had walked I guess a quarter or a
third of a mile to get to the soccer field
(11:54):
in the rain to go kick a ball. I mean,
what these adherents have lived through is hell, pure hell, guys,
take a listen to our cuts. Twenty six and twenty seven.
Speaker 3 (12:09):
The field of forensic technology continued to improve, and in
May of twenty fifteen, a piece of cloth recovered from
the victim was sent to Syringing Forensics for an updated
DNA analysis. It resulted in a partial profile attributed to
an unknown male. Using public records and police resources, the
sentence of the suspect were identified. The family assisted in
(12:33):
the investigation and sample DNA was provided for comparison DNA
evidence left on the victim and the familiar DNA was
a match. We exhumed the suspect's body for DNA testing
to rule out any doubts.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
Time story with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
Joining me right now a special guest, Melvin Randall. This
is Debbie's brother, mister Randall. Thank you so much for
being with us. You when you look back when all
the years that you have lived without Debbie, what memory
(13:30):
is the most vivid.
Speaker 6 (13:33):
The pain of just you know, not knowing what's going on,
to seeing my mother wanting to find out what happened,
you know, having to deal with that was tough for
a long time. It's just just not knowing what happened.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
When you say the toughest part for you was watching
your mother wanting, waiting, yearning, praying for justice. What do
you mean, what did you see your mother do?
Speaker 6 (14:15):
Well, she just suffered a lot, she had leukemia, but
her wish was, you know, that they would find before
she passed away, that they'd find out. And it were
just tough to see how much it did hurt her,
how much she really wanted it. And I'm just glad
(14:37):
that they finally did, But I still wish my mother
would have been around to to see it.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
Melvin, how old were you when Debbie was murdered?
Speaker 6 (14:51):
I was ten years old.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
Do you remember when it happened? Can you still remember it?
Speaker 6 (14:56):
Yes, ma'am, very vividly.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
What do you recall?
Speaker 6 (15:01):
I was ten, I was sick. They wouldn't let me
go outside. I remember standing at the door looking outside,
and uh, you know, I blame myself for a long time.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
But you blamed yourself? Why?
Speaker 6 (15:15):
Well, because I was her older brother. We always played
together and always was around each other. And then that
one day I was sick and I wasn't allowed to
go outside. So I blame myself for a while, but
then I realized it was nothing I could do.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
You know, just hearing what you're saying. Uh, Doctor Angela
Arnold is with me, a truly renowned psychiatrist that I
consider a friend. Doctor Angie. I know that brother Melvin says,
I blame myself, But then I realized there was nothing
else I could do. Even when I look back now
(15:56):
on my fiance's murder, I think, well, if what if
I had said, don't go to work today, just stay
one more day with me and make it just stay
here at my parents' house. What if I did this?
What if I did that? I mean, it never goes away,
doctor Angie.
Speaker 8 (16:11):
No, And you know, Nancy, the last thing anybody ever
wants to do is blame the victim, okay, And so
the only other thing we can do is blame ourselves,
because it's such a feeling of a lack of control
that if we think that we could have done something
to prevent this pain us act to the victim, that's
(16:38):
our attempt at finding some sort of control in this
of which there's absolutely no control. Because this was just
a horrible act that happened to this little girl when
she was out alone. She could have been walking out
alone any number of times, and nothing could have happened
(16:58):
to her right on this particular day. This is what happened,
and none of us have any control over that, and
it's none of our fault.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
You're so right, Doctor Angie, joining me now, Jessica Nole,
investigative journalist, co host producer of The Investigators podcast. Jessica,
thank you for being with us. And I don't want
any victim blaming her mom, Debbie Lynn's mom. Both parents
died before they ever knew who took little Debbie, but
(17:32):
I don't want them blame. I mean, she was basically
across the street right when she was inducted from the laundromat.
Speaker 9 (17:41):
Yeah, she was across the street at the laundrymat. She
had been with her stepfather and they put the load
in and he gave her some change to finish up
the laundry. He headed across the street, literally yards across
the street, back to their apartment, and she stuck around
for a little bit with the soapboxes, played with her dolls,
(18:03):
and then you know, just a few minutes later, she
walked out the door and that was you know, she
was taken.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
Melvin Randall, I think I heard you jumping in What
were you saying?
Speaker 6 (18:14):
I was just saying that it was not very far
at all. We could see the laundry let from the door.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
And Marris nicked with me, the detective who stayed on
the case from the beginning till now. Marris didn't she didn't.
Debbie like to go collect all the soap that was
left behind that people had bought but then they didn't
need it, and she would gather all together and her
family would use the leftover soap.
Speaker 5 (18:40):
Yeah, that was what Debbie liked to do, and I think,
looking back on it, I think that was her way
of helping her family, and it gave her time to
kind of linger around a little bit longer.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
And the friends had the dolls. I mean, I'm looking
at her right now. I'm looking particularly at the picture
of her. She still has her baby teeth and some
of her baby teeth. She looks like she's just gotten
her adult front two teeth, and her little nose covered
in freckles, and that gold, that yellow ribbon on her
hair looks like a school picture. She just looks like
(19:15):
the all American little girl nine years old just got Morgan.
When Morris Nick says she was cut open what does
he mean by that?
Speaker 4 (19:26):
The belief is is that there was an instrument of
some type that was inserted within her. And you know,
we can go on and on about this, but it
seems to me that this is the act of somebody that,
when it comes down to it, is a sadist, somebody
that enjoyed inflicting pain on somebody that was obviously much
(19:50):
smaller and weaker than them.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
And probably trapped in a vehicle. She was raped with
a foreign.
Speaker 4 (19:56):
Object, trapped and then taken to an isolated area. The
thing about it is with cases like these, individuals that
have this predatory mindset have already got a they've got
a type of person that they're looking for, and then
they have a fantasy in their mind about where they're
going to go and where they're going to do it.
Because something like this would have required a certain amount
(20:20):
of isolation. Because this is Nancy, I can't even begin
to describe to you in any terms how painful this
would have been and how horrific it would have been
what this port li Lo Angel was subjected to at
that point in don.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
Guys take a listen to our cut twenty eight. I
think you will recognize the voice.
Speaker 3 (20:40):
Debuln's parents die without knowing who killed their little girl.
Her mother one Neda, died of leukemia in twenty eighteen,
and her father John passed away in January of last year.
The answer we are providing today will not bring her back,
and we can't extract justice from the perpetrator. But I know, oh,
he must answer to a higher power, and I hope
(21:03):
it will provide some relief and answer the question that
is lingered for more than fifty years. We have confirmed
that William B. Rose of Mapleton was responsible for the
death of Debbie Lynn Randall.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
William B. Rose of Mapleton, then twenty four years old,
responsible for the death of Debbie Lynn Randall to Morris Nicks,
who is this guy? Who is William B. Rose?
Speaker 8 (21:32):
You know?
Speaker 5 (21:33):
Now's the amazing thing about it. With the hundreds of
people literally that we looked at and the people we
tried to eliminate, he was never on our radar. There
was nothing that led us to him. There's no past behavior.
And I'm looking at this now and I'm thinking about
what is it about people such as BTK Dennis Raider
(21:53):
who have a great parents, good you know, siblings, But
there's this monster that just deep within them. And I
thought about this constantly. I wondered why her coat was
put back on her and zipped up to her chin.
We didn't know William Rose, and that's a great question.
(22:17):
And who was William Rose? We still need to find
that out.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
Take a Lit's snower cut thirty two. This is Ron
Alder speaking.
Speaker 10 (22:25):
They didn't know each other as best I can tell. Obviously,
he was twenty four members and she was nine. He
had family members that lived in the complex, so he
was probably in the complex quite a bit. In talking
with mister Randall. As children, they played outside a lot.
There was a playground right near the laundromat where w
was last scene, so they were outside a lot. If
you drove by, I'm sure he saw her, and I
(22:47):
believe that as a crime of opportunity. He saw her
by herself and he talked her.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
Joining me right now. The elected district attorney, who also
along with the Morris Nick saw this case through. If
it weren't for the elected DA saying yes, go go
use the money, spend the money, get the DNA analysis,
this would not have happened. Just know that, and know
that this elected district attorney is faced with thousands, thousands
(23:12):
of cases every day. All the families want answers, all
the families want justice. But we would not be here
today without the unfaltering dedication of Morris Knicks and this
elected district attorney. I hope you're listening Cobb County, mister Brodie.
(23:33):
How hard is it to solve a case when the
killer or the rapist is random. It's like a needle
in a haystack.
Speaker 7 (23:43):
It is definitely a needle in a haystack. And that's
why I detectives like Morris Knicks are so important for
the criminal justice system. They have that dedication to do
the work that is going to take to solve these cases.
And we have to do everything we can to support
them because it is hard work. And Detective Nicks will
(24:04):
tell you they get attached to their victims. They want
to find that justice. They want to do the work
to make sure we bring an answer to these families
because they deserve one.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
You know, another thing I like about you, Flynn D.
Brody Jr. Is that you are big enough to share
the praise. Guys, I want you to listen to Brody
speaking in our twenty.
Speaker 3 (24:28):
Nine Many thanks to investigator Ron Alter and retired CCPD
detective Morris Nicks, their persistence and commitment to seeking justice
for Debbie Lynn's family was vital in bringing this case
to a close.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
See, mister Brody, that's another thing about you that a
lot of people may not know. Like every day, I'm
sitting here in this chair, but it's not me. I'm
just a mouthpiece. Jackie's working, Sidney is working, Kelly is working,
Dave is working, John is working, Eelie's work. Everybody's working
(25:03):
together to present a criminal case, to spotlight a criminal case,
to look for answers, to push justice Ford one inch.
It's not me, it's them lifting me up. And for
you to call out to other people that have stuck
(25:23):
by this case is amazing because you know how many
people wouldn't do that. A lot a lot of people
wouldn't do that, Flynn, Nancy.
Speaker 7 (25:34):
The key is I may be the mouthpiece, but I'm
definitely not the one doing the work. And my total
job is to get them the resources that they need
to bring justice to this community, to make sure that
we're doing the things that we need to do so
our victims have a voice.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Joining me right now to kind of explain what has
really happened. Here? Is Toby Woolson or is it consultant
specializing in DNA erology bloodstain pattern analysis at no Slow
Forensics dot com. Toby, thank you, Toby is joining us
(26:14):
out of Miami. Thank you for taking time. Okay, what happened?
A It costs money. Now, the DA made sure that
some of the funds. And trust me, he said earlier,
you're not in this business for the money. I remember
working two night jobs while I was a DA. But
that said, you allocate the money to get the test.
(26:35):
But you've got a rag taken from Debbie's vaginal area,
from her vagina there, that's where I was, a rag
stuffed in her vagina to stop all the incredible bleeding,
the profuse bleeding. So how did that rag equal finding
(26:57):
the killer? How did that happen? William B. Rose raw
and Hail Rose? But how did it happen? Toby?
Speaker 11 (27:05):
Well, good morning, Nancy. This is a good illustration of
how much improvement DNA technology has done in the thirty
years we've been using it, where we went from needing
large samples and getting very little information to now using
imperceptible samples. We have technologies now that are extremely sensitive
(27:26):
that require very small amounts of DNA in order to
get profiles. Now the RAG, I know the DNA Labs
International did the work on the RAG reading the news articles.
They use a piece of equipment I forget its name
off hand, but it's actually a vacuum and concentrator for
(27:49):
items in which they failed to get DNA or the
DNA we obtained from it was so small they couldn't
analyze it. So this piece of equipment that a lot
of laboratories using now that allows them to vacuum up
samples from these from these rags and from this degree
and then concentrate it and do analysis is you know,
(28:10):
just another example of how much things have changed. You know,
we went from taking something, doing a normal traditional extraction
on it and saying there's insufficient DNA to now hyper
pulling away the DNA on the on that item, concentrating
it and saying, oh, now I've got a sufficient sample
in order to do the DNA analysis. So all of
(28:33):
this is an example of how how far we've come
in such a short period of time with the ability
to take genetic material and use it to identify perpetrators
and victims and lost souls, you name it. Where you know,
they're now capable of doing it, and it's only going
(28:54):
to go much further. The next step is genetic sequencing.
Some laboratory are starting to look at it now, and
genetic sequencing when the traditional DNA analysis fails to give
you an answer, maybe the next step in fixing those samples.
The other advantage of genetic sequencing is that apparently it
(29:17):
will give the ability to tell the difference between twins
identical twins. Now when you do them traditional DNA wise
have the same profiles, but apparently their genetic sequences.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
Yeah, we don't like twins in our business. I actually,
and I've got twins because I actually, I'm one of
those prosecutors, those rare prosecutors that actually had a murder
and agasaw. One guy was murdered, one guy was left
in a wheelchair forever over a handful of dot ropes
gold chains, and the perp had an identical twin. You
(29:52):
know those stories that start with I never thought it
would happen to me, It happened to me, okay, but
got the conviction that said he's talking about an m
Emazon mother VAT, which is a sterile wet vac wet
vacuum and a so called collection solution is sprayed onto
(30:15):
the surface the mvact. It looks like a handback. A
minivac is then put over the surface and it creates
a kind of a mini hurricane effect and it loosens
the DNA and sucks it up if there is any
to be loosened. And in this case, I'm just guessing,
Joe Scott Morgan that you had her blood and his
(30:37):
epiphilial or skin cells, possibly his sperm, but likely his
epifilial cells.
Speaker 4 (30:44):
Yeah, you would have. And this is what we refer
to as commingling of evidence. And when you can fine
tune the technology now so that you can separate it
out at this very minute level, it's quite amazing to see.
There's also a big part, and I think that maybe
(31:04):
Morse can address this, but there was also a big
part of this was a straight hair that was also found, which,
of course, you know, we can either if you have
the root ball, we can do you know, nuclear DNA
testing on it or mitochondrial DNA testing on it.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
Exactly without the nucleus the root of the hair, you
can still conduct to mitochondrial DNA analysis. Guys, take us
an our cut thirty five.
Speaker 10 (31:30):
A family member, a distant family member contributed DNA, actually
multiple contributed DNA to family treating DNA or a dead
match pro which are the two open source sites for
ancestry that law enforcement has access to. And genealogists with
DNA Labs International were able to work through that till
they got a narrower list of suspects and from there
(31:53):
we inviewed people and worked our way to mister.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
Roscow Time Stories with Nancy Grease.
Speaker 2 (32:16):
Let's break down how that happens. Jessica Nole with me,
investigative journalist, producer of the investigators. So if you get
the DNA from the m fact that Joe Scott Morgan's
talking about and Toby Wilson is talking about, you get
some DNA, but you gotta have somebody to match it to.
I mean how many times Flynn Brody Junior, the elected
(32:37):
DA do you hear? Well, did you get a fingerprint? Yeah,
we got a fingerprint off the window sill, but you
have to match it to somebody or you don't know
whose it is. Same thing with DNA, right, jury's expected
on every case. Oh boy, do they ever? So you
get DNA from this elaborate and new technique of the
m as a mother m VAC. But whose is it? Well,
(33:00):
place you look mars Nicks. But first place I look
is at the jail. You right through the GCIC Georgia,
NCIC National and see has any other defendant in the
country Do any of them have the same DNA? That's
where you start, right.
Speaker 5 (33:17):
That's where we start. And we could not figure out
why we were not getting a CODIS hit on this individual,
thinking that whoever did this certainly would do it again.
And I even at one point it started looking at
people who had already been executed for similar offenses. We
got nothing who was totally.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
Not on the way of you know, you are amazing.
I didn't realize you even went back to people that
have been executed or dead to find a match. Nothing
in GCIC or NCIC, which all goes to CODIS. That
means in some cases, when you are arrested for let's
(33:57):
just say a raper and murder, your d found the scene,
that DNA goes into the code's database. You run people's
rap sheets, you try to find people with similar cases
in the past, and believe me. Isn't it true, Doctor
Angie Arnold? It's very hard to believe this guy went
from zero to one hundred and twenty mph in one moment,
(34:19):
that he didn't have anything before this, But he didn't.
Speaker 8 (34:23):
Well, are we sure about that?
Speaker 2 (34:25):
No, we're not sure. I am sure. He wasn't prosecuted anything.
That doesn't mean exact.
Speaker 8 (34:30):
That doesn't mean that he wasn't killing somebody's animals in
the backyard. Doesn't know it, doesn't Like you said, Nancy,
Like you said, there is no way that somebody's just
walking down the street and all of a sudden some
impulse hits them to do such a heinous act to
another human being because they need more.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
But what finally happened here, they.
Speaker 8 (34:53):
Don't have more and more to get the same gratification
out of their acts, and they have practiced other things
before they do something like this.
Speaker 2 (35:05):
Oh gosh, yes, yes, like torturing animals. Absolutely so to you.
Morris Nicks, former detective in Cobb County cold case unit.
So you get the DNA off the MBAC and then
the current District Attorney's office had geneticist then compare it
to open public family trees like Jedged match and others,
(35:32):
thefamilytree dot com those and Bam you get a match.
Were you surprised Morris Knicks that the purp is without
a doubt? Then twenty four year old William B.
Speaker 5 (35:45):
Rose, I can't even describe it an When ron Oldtter
called me, he'd called me once before until we've got
it down to two states. He called me back again
and said we have found his daughter. I did not
sleep for seventy two hours. Then they assumed the body.
He called me back and said, that's it, it's done.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
You exhumed the perhaps body.
Speaker 5 (36:08):
They did.
Speaker 2 (36:09):
Yes, I am so amazed. Flynn Brody Jr. Could you
tell everybody how difficult that it is to get an
exhamation order. It's not easy, No.
Speaker 7 (36:19):
It's definitely not easy, not even easy, but you know,
it's kind of expensive. But we wanted to make sure
that we had the right person. We wanted to bring
true closure, to make sure that this was a complete
DNA match, and that was the only way we could
do it.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
Joining me is Debbie's sister, Melvin Randall, who has gone
He was ten. Debbie was nine when she was kidnapped
and murdered. Melvin Randall, How did you find out her
killer had been found?
Speaker 6 (36:54):
Mister Nicks notified me a while back, letting we know
that the possibility was great that they had found him,
and said that there was a little more testing to
do to make sure absolutely sure before they announced it.
And that's how I found out was mister Mister Nickson
(37:16):
has been great help to my family in many ways,
and I would like to thank him again, but mister
Nixon is the one they let me know for sure
at the District Attorney's office. Both were calling me and
letting me know the information.
Speaker 2 (37:38):
Melvin, what are your feelings and your thoughts on the
fact that this rapist as child rapist is killer. William B.
Rose committed suicide two years after he murdered Debbie Well.
Speaker 6 (37:55):
I think that I think that he probably his conscience
might have got to him, is what I'm thinking. I mean,
I'm not I wasn't there. I don't know, but that's
what I feel. I feel that maybe his conscious did
get to it, and that's why I committed suicide.
Speaker 2 (38:15):
How do you feel emotionally, not logically, but how do
you feel about the fact that he's dead? He will
never have to face you or any of Debbie's family
in a court of law.
Speaker 6 (38:29):
I don't think I would like to have faced him
in the first place, because I don't know what I
would have done. I probably would have been all these
people that would have done something stupid. So I'm sort
of grateful that you know that it this way, because
it makes it a little easier.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
Melvin. Can I tell you something, ma'am, from somebody that knows.
Every day, I wonder, did I do the wrong thing
by not just shooting case killer there in the courtroom.
Should I have done that? Of course if I had,
I wouldn't have John, David and Lucy. I wouldn't have David.
(39:11):
So I guess the Lord protected me.
Speaker 6 (39:14):
Yeah, because that's what I thought for a lot of years.
I wish they would find out and I would go retaliate.
But that's not what we should do. What we should
do is just no.
Speaker 2 (39:22):
It's not you know what we should do. We should
do what Flynde Brody Jr. And Morris Knicks do every
day of their lives. And they are fine examples for
me to follow. They don't quit, they keep going, They
work within the law, and they seek justice. And I
(39:45):
am happy to say Congratulations District Attorney Brody, and congratulations
Mars Nicks. And God bless you Melvin Randall. And may
your parents and Debbie's parents rest in peace with her now.
Good Bye friends,
Crime Stories with Nancy Greece.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
An absolutely precious little nine year old girl goes missing,
literally yards away from her home from the laundromat. A
frantic search ensues. Volunteers find Debbie's body. She has been horribly,
(00:43):
horribly sex assaulted. She's dead years past. The case goes
cold in the last days. An amazing twist in the
case of a beautiful little girl, Debbie Lynn Randall. I'm
(01:09):
Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being
with us here at Fox Nation and Serious xem one eleven.
First of all, take a listen to the elected District
Attorney in Cobb County, Flynn D. Brodie, Junior.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
Today we are here to provide an answer and perhaps
some sembilance of closure to the family of Debbie Lynn Randall,
whose young life and bright smile ended fifty one years ago,
gone too soon at the age of nine years old.
On January thirteenth, nineteen seventy two, Debbie Lynn Randall, a
third grade student at Pine Forest Elementary School, was walking
(01:48):
home from the laundromat when she was abducted, raped, and killed.
The laundrymat was only a half block away from her home.
She was found sixteen days long after an extensive search
from the community which over four thousand members participated, she
was assaulted and strangled to death.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Yes, she was assaulted. Yes, this little girl was strangled
to death with me an all star panel, including the
elected district Attorney Da Brody Jr. And the detective who
stuck by this case and never gave up A man
I consider now to be a friend Morris Nix. I
(02:32):
remember when he first approached me about this case and
beg begged to bring awareness to Debbie's case. He stuck
with it from the get go, and he is here
with us today. First, I want to go to Joseph
Scott Morgan, renowned professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University,
(02:55):
author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon and star
of Body Bags. With Joseph Scott Morgan, Joe Scott, it's
always thank you for being with us to state that
this little girl nine years old. Now, Joe Scott, you
remember when your baby was in the third grade? You remember,
Oh yeah, sure do. What happened to Debbie Lynne Randalled.
Speaker 4 (03:20):
Her assault is something that nightmares are made of. She
was all by herself and was snatched. I think that
it was, at least in these circumstances, it appears to
be a crime of opportunity, and she was taken away
and taken to an area where she could be assaulted
(03:42):
in private, essentially, and she wound up dying.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
You know when you say assaulted, When you say assaulted,
that is a legal term for rape, a sodomy that
means vaginal or anal, forced penetration, forced intercourse, or oral
(04:09):
vaginal anal oral. Those are sex assaults. Please, Joe Scott,
I understand you're coming from a place of professionalism, but
we're not in court. I want the truth and I
don't care how bad it is. What happened to Debbie Randall,
(04:30):
nine years old, third grade. What happened to her?
Speaker 4 (04:34):
She was beaten and strangled to death, Nancy, and it
on top of being sexually assaulted and left out in
essentially an isolated area. Now, this is a young girl
that had been part of a family and she was
out there alone. And I think probably one of the
(04:56):
most poignant comments about this along the way that I
have seen is that the last vision that she had
was probably staring into the eyes of her killer, who
had been assaulting her all along and had just completely
and totally brutalized with me.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
In addition to the elected District Attorney Flynn D. Brody
Junior in Cobb County, Morris Nix is with us former
detective with the Cobb County Cold Case Unit, Morris, Yes,
could you explain the facts surrounding Debbie's disappearance and murder
(05:33):
as well as this nine year old little girl's rate?
Speaker 5 (05:37):
Nancy, First of all, I want to listen her to
understand to what he just raped, who had ripped openness.
This was a vicious, sadist attack. This man was not
just a pedophile, he was a sadist. And if you
ever saw the photograph, they would haunt you forever. Why
(05:59):
because it was so brutal and I you know, you
just hard to wrap your head around what she may
have seen and felt before she died.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Do you remember the rag that was found of the scene.
Speaker 6 (06:13):
I do.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Where was the rag?
Speaker 5 (06:15):
The rag was placed in her vaginal area. And the
reason we believed that happened was she was abducted at
a lagomat. She was taken to another location and assaulted.
The Emmy's office said that had he not strangled her,
she would have bled to death. That's how bad it was.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
Vaginal bleeding correct, from the rape.
Speaker 5 (06:36):
Correct, and from ripping her opening. I think some kind
of foreign object was used.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Guys, I know that it is so hard to hear,
but this is what happened to this nine year old
little girl. I want to go to Flynn D. Brody, Junior,
the elected DA in Cobb County. You know if I
may call you Flynn, Yeah, we are used to. I mean,
there's no telling how many cases you have tried and
(07:04):
investigated before you became the District Attorney in Cobb. We
are used to, Flynn. I remember the first time I
had to say a curse word in front of a
jury in Fulton County. The words I had never said before.
I don't mean damn or hell or the F word.
(07:26):
I mean a lot worse than that. And I had
to actually say it out loud in my car on
the way to work that morning so I could say
it with a straight face. This two regular people, not
people like us who are in this business, who seek
(07:48):
justice every day. No matter how awful the facts are,
it's very, very difficult to enunciate, to tell people what
happened to Debbie Randall and I just want to thank
you the elected district Attorney Marris Nicks, and the incredible
(08:09):
scientists who have finally brought a resolution. Do you know
how many nights I've gone to sleep and thought about
Debbie Randall and thought about Mars Nicks still working the case.
I mean, Flynn, could you explain what it takes to
(08:29):
do a job like yours and stand in front of
a jury on a case this horrific or never get
answers on a case this horrific?
Speaker 7 (08:38):
Nancy, I think you said it. You know, many times
we see the facts, we see the pictures, and we
get so attached to our victims, we get attached to
wanting to find justice for him, to bring people to
be accountable for the things of their actions that they've taken.
You know, I applaud Detective Nicks for the work that
(09:00):
he's done on this case. I said earlier that the
emotion that he showed at the press conference showed that
he was vested in this case, just as all prosecutors are.
You know, as a prosecutor, you don't do this for
the money. You don't do this for fame or any
accolade or anything. You do it for the victims. You
do it for the individuals who have no voice. You
(09:23):
have to speak for them so you can bring justice
for them, for those families, and in this case, fifty
one years for the Randall family. Fifty one years it
took for us to solve this case. But in the
end it was solved, some closure was brought, and mister Randall,
Melvin was so forgiving of mister of the Rose family.
(09:49):
I just really my heart goes out to him for
all the things that this family must have gone through,
and for many of us. You know, we have children
of our own, and every time we see a victim,
we see our own kid.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
Can I tell you what happened just this past week, Flynn. Guys,
you're hearing not only Joe Scott Morgan, but Morris Nicks,
the former detective who stayed on this case until the
bitter end, and Flynn Brody, I'm shortly gonna be joined
by Debbie's brother, Melvin Randall. Flynn Morris just this past week,
(10:27):
and my son, who is fifteen is now six ' five.
All right, I was watching my daughter, she's a football
manager for the JB JV football team, and I was
just watching her. It was pouring rain. It was starting
to get dark. We were at an away game and
(10:49):
I was sitting there and seeing that the game finally ended,
and I let my son run off with his little friend. Okay,
I couldn't find him, Flynn. I called him and called him,
and he's usually got his phone glued to his ear.
No answer, no answer, no answer. I finally did lie
three sixty Flynn. His phone was in a field behind.
(11:11):
I think it was a quality end out on a strip.
I all I could think about where cases, just like
Debbie Randall, where at first appearance, they're like, oh they'll
be back, they've wandered off. They're here, they're there, there,
they're with their friends. And the more I called, and
the more I called and couldn't get him, I could
(11:33):
just feel it rising up in my chest. Well, the
end of the story, guess where he was, Flynn. Guess
what was behind that quality end the soccer field. The
soccer field was in a different place in the school,
and they had walked I guess a quarter or a
third of a mile to get to the soccer field
(11:54):
in the rain to go kick a ball. I mean,
what these adherents have lived through is hell, pure hell, guys,
take a listen to our cuts. Twenty six and twenty seven.
Speaker 3 (12:09):
The field of forensic technology continued to improve, and in
May of twenty fifteen, a piece of cloth recovered from
the victim was sent to Syringing Forensics for an updated
DNA analysis. It resulted in a partial profile attributed to
an unknown male. Using public records and police resources, the
sentence of the suspect were identified. The family assisted in
(12:33):
the investigation and sample DNA was provided for comparison DNA
evidence left on the victim and the familiar DNA was
a match. We exhumed the suspect's body for DNA testing
to rule out any doubts.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
Time story with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
Joining me right now a special guest, Melvin Randall. This
is Debbie's brother, mister Randall. Thank you so much for
being with us. You when you look back when all
the years that you have lived without Debbie, what memory
(13:30):
is the most vivid.
Speaker 6 (13:33):
The pain of just you know, not knowing what's going on,
to seeing my mother wanting to find out what happened,
you know, having to deal with that was tough for
a long time. It's just just not knowing what happened.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
When you say the toughest part for you was watching
your mother wanting, waiting, yearning, praying for justice. What do
you mean, what did you see your mother do?
Speaker 6 (14:15):
Well, she just suffered a lot, she had leukemia, but
her wish was, you know, that they would find before
she passed away, that they'd find out. And it were
just tough to see how much it did hurt her,
how much she really wanted it. And I'm just glad
(14:37):
that they finally did, But I still wish my mother
would have been around to to see it.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
Melvin, how old were you when Debbie was murdered?
Speaker 6 (14:51):
I was ten years old.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
Do you remember when it happened? Can you still remember it?
Speaker 6 (14:56):
Yes, ma'am, very vividly.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
What do you recall?
Speaker 6 (15:01):
I was ten, I was sick. They wouldn't let me
go outside. I remember standing at the door looking outside,
and uh, you know, I blame myself for a long time.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
But you blamed yourself? Why?
Speaker 6 (15:15):
Well, because I was her older brother. We always played
together and always was around each other. And then that
one day I was sick and I wasn't allowed to
go outside. So I blame myself for a while, but
then I realized it was nothing I could do.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
You know, just hearing what you're saying. Uh, Doctor Angela
Arnold is with me, a truly renowned psychiatrist that I
consider a friend. Doctor Angie. I know that brother Melvin says,
I blame myself, But then I realized there was nothing
else I could do. Even when I look back now
(15:56):
on my fiance's murder, I think, well, if what if
I had said, don't go to work today, just stay
one more day with me and make it just stay
here at my parents' house. What if I did this?
What if I did that? I mean, it never goes away,
doctor Angie.
Speaker 8 (16:11):
No, And you know, Nancy, the last thing anybody ever
wants to do is blame the victim, okay, And so
the only other thing we can do is blame ourselves,
because it's such a feeling of a lack of control
that if we think that we could have done something
to prevent this pain us act to the victim, that's
(16:38):
our attempt at finding some sort of control in this
of which there's absolutely no control. Because this was just
a horrible act that happened to this little girl when
she was out alone. She could have been walking out
alone any number of times, and nothing could have happened
(16:58):
to her right on this particular day. This is what happened,
and none of us have any control over that, and
it's none of our fault.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
You're so right, Doctor Angie, joining me now, Jessica Nole,
investigative journalist, co host producer of The Investigators podcast. Jessica,
thank you for being with us. And I don't want
any victim blaming her mom, Debbie Lynn's mom. Both parents
died before they ever knew who took little Debbie, but
(17:32):
I don't want them blame. I mean, she was basically
across the street right when she was inducted from the laundromat.
Speaker 9 (17:41):
Yeah, she was across the street at the laundrymat. She
had been with her stepfather and they put the load
in and he gave her some change to finish up
the laundry. He headed across the street, literally yards across
the street, back to their apartment, and she stuck around
for a little bit with the soapboxes, played with her dolls,
(18:03):
and then you know, just a few minutes later, she
walked out the door and that was you know, she
was taken.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
Melvin Randall, I think I heard you jumping in What
were you saying?
Speaker 6 (18:14):
I was just saying that it was not very far
at all. We could see the laundry let from the door.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
And Marris nicked with me, the detective who stayed on
the case from the beginning till now. Marris didn't she didn't.
Debbie like to go collect all the soap that was
left behind that people had bought but then they didn't
need it, and she would gather all together and her
family would use the leftover soap.
Speaker 5 (18:40):
Yeah, that was what Debbie liked to do, and I think,
looking back on it, I think that was her way
of helping her family, and it gave her time to
kind of linger around a little bit longer.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
And the friends had the dolls. I mean, I'm looking
at her right now. I'm looking particularly at the picture
of her. She still has her baby teeth and some
of her baby teeth. She looks like she's just gotten
her adult front two teeth, and her little nose covered
in freckles, and that gold, that yellow ribbon on her
hair looks like a school picture. She just looks like
(19:15):
the all American little girl nine years old just got Morgan.
When Morris Nick says she was cut open what does
he mean by that?
Speaker 4 (19:26):
The belief is is that there was an instrument of
some type that was inserted within her. And you know,
we can go on and on about this, but it
seems to me that this is the act of somebody that,
when it comes down to it, is a sadist, somebody
that enjoyed inflicting pain on somebody that was obviously much
(19:50):
smaller and weaker than them.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
And probably trapped in a vehicle. She was raped with
a foreign.
Speaker 4 (19:56):
Object, trapped and then taken to an isolated area. The
thing about it is with cases like these, individuals that
have this predatory mindset have already got a they've got
a type of person that they're looking for, and then
they have a fantasy in their mind about where they're
going to go and where they're going to do it.
Because something like this would have required a certain amount
(20:20):
of isolation. Because this is Nancy, I can't even begin
to describe to you in any terms how painful this
would have been and how horrific it would have been
what this port li Lo Angel was subjected to at
that point in don.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
Guys take a listen to our cut twenty eight. I
think you will recognize the voice.
Speaker 3 (20:40):
Debuln's parents die without knowing who killed their little girl.
Her mother one Neda, died of leukemia in twenty eighteen,
and her father John passed away in January of last year.
The answer we are providing today will not bring her back,
and we can't extract justice from the perpetrator. But I know, oh,
he must answer to a higher power, and I hope
(21:03):
it will provide some relief and answer the question that
is lingered for more than fifty years. We have confirmed
that William B. Rose of Mapleton was responsible for the
death of Debbie Lynn Randall.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
William B. Rose of Mapleton, then twenty four years old,
responsible for the death of Debbie Lynn Randall to Morris Nicks,
who is this guy? Who is William B. Rose?
Speaker 8 (21:32):
You know?
Speaker 5 (21:33):
Now's the amazing thing about it. With the hundreds of
people literally that we looked at and the people we
tried to eliminate, he was never on our radar. There
was nothing that led us to him. There's no past behavior.
And I'm looking at this now and I'm thinking about
what is it about people such as BTK Dennis Raider
(21:53):
who have a great parents, good you know, siblings, But
there's this monster that just deep within them. And I
thought about this constantly. I wondered why her coat was
put back on her and zipped up to her chin.
We didn't know William Rose, and that's a great question.
(22:17):
And who was William Rose? We still need to find
that out.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
Take a Lit's snower cut thirty two. This is Ron
Alder speaking.
Speaker 10 (22:25):
They didn't know each other as best I can tell. Obviously,
he was twenty four members and she was nine. He
had family members that lived in the complex, so he
was probably in the complex quite a bit. In talking
with mister Randall. As children, they played outside a lot.
There was a playground right near the laundromat where w
was last scene, so they were outside a lot. If
you drove by, I'm sure he saw her, and I
(22:47):
believe that as a crime of opportunity. He saw her
by herself and he talked her.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
Joining me right now. The elected district attorney, who also
along with the Morris Nick saw this case through. If
it weren't for the elected DA saying yes, go go
use the money, spend the money, get the DNA analysis,
this would not have happened. Just know that, and know
that this elected district attorney is faced with thousands, thousands
(23:12):
of cases every day. All the families want answers, all
the families want justice. But we would not be here
today without the unfaltering dedication of Morris Knicks and this
elected district attorney. I hope you're listening Cobb County, mister Brodie.
(23:33):
How hard is it to solve a case when the
killer or the rapist is random. It's like a needle
in a haystack.
Speaker 7 (23:43):
It is definitely a needle in a haystack. And that's
why I detectives like Morris Knicks are so important for
the criminal justice system. They have that dedication to do
the work that is going to take to solve these cases.
And we have to do everything we can to support
them because it is hard work. And Detective Nicks will
(24:04):
tell you they get attached to their victims. They want
to find that justice. They want to do the work
to make sure we bring an answer to these families
because they deserve one.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
You know, another thing I like about you, Flynn D.
Brody Jr. Is that you are big enough to share
the praise. Guys, I want you to listen to Brody
speaking in our twenty.
Speaker 3 (24:28):
Nine Many thanks to investigator Ron Alter and retired CCPD
detective Morris Nicks, their persistence and commitment to seeking justice
for Debbie Lynn's family was vital in bringing this case
to a close.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
See, mister Brody, that's another thing about you that a
lot of people may not know. Like every day, I'm
sitting here in this chair, but it's not me. I'm
just a mouthpiece. Jackie's working, Sidney is working, Kelly is working,
Dave is working, John is working, Eelie's work. Everybody's working
(25:03):
together to present a criminal case, to spotlight a criminal case,
to look for answers, to push justice Ford one inch.
It's not me, it's them lifting me up. And for
you to call out to other people that have stuck
(25:23):
by this case is amazing because you know how many
people wouldn't do that. A lot a lot of people
wouldn't do that, Flynn, Nancy.
Speaker 7 (25:34):
The key is I may be the mouthpiece, but I'm
definitely not the one doing the work. And my total
job is to get them the resources that they need
to bring justice to this community, to make sure that
we're doing the things that we need to do so
our victims have a voice.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Joining me right now to kind of explain what has
really happened. Here? Is Toby Woolson or is it consultant
specializing in DNA erology bloodstain pattern analysis at no Slow
Forensics dot com. Toby, thank you, Toby is joining us
(26:14):
out of Miami. Thank you for taking time. Okay, what happened?
A It costs money. Now, the DA made sure that
some of the funds. And trust me, he said earlier,
you're not in this business for the money. I remember
working two night jobs while I was a DA. But
that said, you allocate the money to get the test.
(26:35):
But you've got a rag taken from Debbie's vaginal area,
from her vagina there, that's where I was, a rag
stuffed in her vagina to stop all the incredible bleeding,
the profuse bleeding. So how did that rag equal finding
(26:57):
the killer? How did that happen? William B. Rose raw
and Hail Rose? But how did it happen? Toby?
Speaker 11 (27:05):
Well, good morning, Nancy. This is a good illustration of
how much improvement DNA technology has done in the thirty
years we've been using it, where we went from needing
large samples and getting very little information to now using
imperceptible samples. We have technologies now that are extremely sensitive
(27:26):
that require very small amounts of DNA in order to
get profiles. Now the RAG, I know the DNA Labs
International did the work on the RAG reading the news articles.
They use a piece of equipment I forget its name
off hand, but it's actually a vacuum and concentrator for
(27:49):
items in which they failed to get DNA or the
DNA we obtained from it was so small they couldn't
analyze it. So this piece of equipment that a lot
of laboratories using now that allows them to vacuum up
samples from these from these rags and from this degree
and then concentrate it and do analysis is you know,
(28:10):
just another example of how much things have changed. You know,
we went from taking something, doing a normal traditional extraction
on it and saying there's insufficient DNA to now hyper
pulling away the DNA on the on that item, concentrating
it and saying, oh, now I've got a sufficient sample
in order to do the DNA analysis. So all of
(28:33):
this is an example of how how far we've come
in such a short period of time with the ability
to take genetic material and use it to identify perpetrators
and victims and lost souls, you name it. Where you know,
they're now capable of doing it, and it's only going
(28:54):
to go much further. The next step is genetic sequencing.
Some laboratory are starting to look at it now, and
genetic sequencing when the traditional DNA analysis fails to give
you an answer, maybe the next step in fixing those samples.
The other advantage of genetic sequencing is that apparently it
(29:17):
will give the ability to tell the difference between twins
identical twins. Now when you do them traditional DNA wise
have the same profiles, but apparently their genetic sequences.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
Yeah, we don't like twins in our business. I actually,
and I've got twins because I actually, I'm one of
those prosecutors, those rare prosecutors that actually had a murder
and agasaw. One guy was murdered, one guy was left
in a wheelchair forever over a handful of dot ropes
gold chains, and the perp had an identical twin. You
(29:52):
know those stories that start with I never thought it
would happen to me, It happened to me, okay, but
got the conviction that said he's talking about an m
Emazon mother VAT, which is a sterile wet vac wet
vacuum and a so called collection solution is sprayed onto
(30:15):
the surface the mvact. It looks like a handback. A
minivac is then put over the surface and it creates
a kind of a mini hurricane effect and it loosens
the DNA and sucks it up if there is any
to be loosened. And in this case, I'm just guessing,
Joe Scott Morgan that you had her blood and his
(30:37):
epiphilial or skin cells, possibly his sperm, but likely his
epifilial cells.
Speaker 4 (30:44):
Yeah, you would have. And this is what we refer
to as commingling of evidence. And when you can fine
tune the technology now so that you can separate it
out at this very minute level, it's quite amazing to see.
There's also a big part, and I think that maybe
(31:04):
Morse can address this, but there was also a big
part of this was a straight hair that was also found, which,
of course, you know, we can either if you have
the root ball, we can do you know, nuclear DNA
testing on it or mitochondrial DNA testing on it.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
Exactly without the nucleus the root of the hair, you
can still conduct to mitochondrial DNA analysis. Guys, take us
an our cut thirty five.
Speaker 10 (31:30):
A family member, a distant family member contributed DNA, actually
multiple contributed DNA to family treating DNA or a dead
match pro which are the two open source sites for
ancestry that law enforcement has access to. And genealogists with
DNA Labs International were able to work through that till
they got a narrower list of suspects and from there
(31:53):
we inviewed people and worked our way to mister.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
Roscow Time Stories with Nancy Grease.
Speaker 2 (32:16):
Let's break down how that happens. Jessica Nole with me,
investigative journalist, producer of the investigators. So if you get
the DNA from the m fact that Joe Scott Morgan's
talking about and Toby Wilson is talking about, you get
some DNA, but you gotta have somebody to match it to.
I mean how many times Flynn Brody Junior, the elected
(32:37):
DA do you hear? Well, did you get a fingerprint? Yeah,
we got a fingerprint off the window sill, but you
have to match it to somebody or you don't know
whose it is. Same thing with DNA, right, jury's expected
on every case. Oh boy, do they ever? So you
get DNA from this elaborate and new technique of the
m as a mother m VAC. But whose is it? Well,
(33:00):
place you look mars Nicks. But first place I look
is at the jail. You right through the GCIC Georgia,
NCIC National and see has any other defendant in the
country Do any of them have the same DNA? That's
where you start, right.
Speaker 5 (33:17):
That's where we start. And we could not figure out
why we were not getting a CODIS hit on this individual,
thinking that whoever did this certainly would do it again.
And I even at one point it started looking at
people who had already been executed for similar offenses. We
got nothing who was totally.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
Not on the way of you know, you are amazing.
I didn't realize you even went back to people that
have been executed or dead to find a match. Nothing
in GCIC or NCIC, which all goes to CODIS. That
means in some cases, when you are arrested for let's
(33:57):
just say a raper and murder, your d found the scene,
that DNA goes into the code's database. You run people's
rap sheets, you try to find people with similar cases
in the past, and believe me. Isn't it true, Doctor
Angie Arnold? It's very hard to believe this guy went
from zero to one hundred and twenty mph in one moment,
(34:19):
that he didn't have anything before this, But he didn't.
Speaker 8 (34:23):
Well, are we sure about that?
Speaker 2 (34:25):
No, we're not sure. I am sure. He wasn't prosecuted anything.
That doesn't mean exact.
Speaker 8 (34:30):
That doesn't mean that he wasn't killing somebody's animals in
the backyard. Doesn't know it, doesn't Like you said, Nancy,
Like you said, there is no way that somebody's just
walking down the street and all of a sudden some
impulse hits them to do such a heinous act to
another human being because they need more.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
But what finally happened here, they.
Speaker 8 (34:53):
Don't have more and more to get the same gratification
out of their acts, and they have practiced other things
before they do something like this.
Speaker 2 (35:05):
Oh gosh, yes, yes, like torturing animals. Absolutely so to you.
Morris Nicks, former detective in Cobb County cold case unit.
So you get the DNA off the MBAC and then
the current District Attorney's office had geneticist then compare it
to open public family trees like Jedged match and others,
(35:32):
thefamilytree dot com those and Bam you get a match.
Were you surprised Morris Knicks that the purp is without
a doubt? Then twenty four year old William B.
Speaker 5 (35:45):
Rose, I can't even describe it an When ron Oldtter
called me, he'd called me once before until we've got
it down to two states. He called me back again
and said we have found his daughter. I did not
sleep for seventy two hours. Then they assumed the body.
He called me back and said, that's it, it's done.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
You exhumed the perhaps body.
Speaker 5 (36:08):
They did.
Speaker 2 (36:09):
Yes, I am so amazed. Flynn Brody Jr. Could you
tell everybody how difficult that it is to get an
exhamation order. It's not easy, No.
Speaker 7 (36:19):
It's definitely not easy, not even easy, but you know,
it's kind of expensive. But we wanted to make sure
that we had the right person. We wanted to bring
true closure, to make sure that this was a complete
DNA match, and that was the only way we could
do it.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
Joining me is Debbie's sister, Melvin Randall, who has gone
He was ten. Debbie was nine when she was kidnapped
and murdered. Melvin Randall, How did you find out her
killer had been found?
Speaker 6 (36:54):
Mister Nicks notified me a while back, letting we know
that the possibility was great that they had found him,
and said that there was a little more testing to
do to make sure absolutely sure before they announced it.
And that's how I found out was mister Mister Nickson
(37:16):
has been great help to my family in many ways,
and I would like to thank him again, but mister
Nixon is the one they let me know for sure
at the District Attorney's office. Both were calling me and
letting me know the information.
Speaker 2 (37:38):
Melvin, what are your feelings and your thoughts on the
fact that this rapist as child rapist is killer. William B.
Rose committed suicide two years after he murdered Debbie Well.
Speaker 6 (37:55):
I think that I think that he probably his conscience
might have got to him, is what I'm thinking. I mean,
I'm not I wasn't there. I don't know, but that's
what I feel. I feel that maybe his conscious did
get to it, and that's why I committed suicide.
Speaker 2 (38:15):
How do you feel emotionally, not logically, but how do
you feel about the fact that he's dead? He will
never have to face you or any of Debbie's family
in a court of law.
Speaker 6 (38:29):
I don't think I would like to have faced him
in the first place, because I don't know what I
would have done. I probably would have been all these
people that would have done something stupid. So I'm sort
of grateful that you know that it this way, because
it makes it a little easier.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
Melvin. Can I tell you something, ma'am, from somebody that knows.
Every day, I wonder, did I do the wrong thing
by not just shooting case killer there in the courtroom.
Should I have done that? Of course if I had,
I wouldn't have John, David and Lucy. I wouldn't have David.
(39:11):
So I guess the Lord protected me.
Speaker 6 (39:14):
Yeah, because that's what I thought for a lot of years.
I wish they would find out and I would go retaliate.
But that's not what we should do. What we should
do is just no.
Speaker 2 (39:22):
It's not you know what we should do. We should
do what Flynde Brody Jr. And Morris Knicks do every
day of their lives. And they are fine examples for
me to follow. They don't quit, they keep going, They
work within the law, and they seek justice. And I
(39:45):
am happy to say Congratulations District Attorney Brody, and congratulations
Mars Nicks. And God bless you Melvin Randall. And may
your parents and Debbie's parents rest in peace with her now.
Good Bye friends,
Host
Nancy Grace
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