July 4, 2025 • 55 mins
Ghislaine Maxwell was convicted for her role in a scheme to sexual exploit and abuse multiple minor girls with financier Jeffrey Epstein. Specifically the charges were conspiracy to entice minors to travel to engage in illegal sex acts, conspiracy to transport minors to participate in illegal sex acts, transporting a minor to participate in illegal sex acts, sex trafficking conspiracy, and sex trafficking of a minor. Prosecutors alleged from at least 1994 to 2004, Maxwell knowingly recruited, groomed, and ultimately abused victims under the age of 18. Some were as young as 14.
Facts laid out in court proved Maxell befriended victims by asking them about their lives, and taking them to the movies or on shopping trips. Then, provided guidance for how to deal with Epstein, as in giving massages which lead to sexual acts. Maxwell was sentenced to 20-years.
Maxwell first appealed her conviction, but the Appeals Court denied her motion. Now Ghislaine Maxwell has asked the U.S. Supreme Court to overturn her sex trafficking conviction, arguing she was covered by a non-prosecution agreement the government made with her former lover, Jeffrey Epstein. The Supreme Court has not yet ruled on Ghislaine Maxwell's appeal, and has not even decided whether to take the case.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Four people, four souls lost
in connection with the Jeffrey Epstein sex trafficking case. Virginia Geoffrey,
(00:20):
one of them her body just found. Does it never end?
I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to
thank you for being with us. In the last days,
we learned Epstein's hints person his so called madam. That's
certainly putting perfume on the pig. Elaine Maxwell, the jailed
(00:44):
Epstein accomplice, is appealing her conviction all the way to
the US Supreme Court. It never ends, and yes you're
paying for it. Again. This is Crime Stories. I want
to thank you for being with us on our Friday
night special. Tonight we take a look how can Eulaane
(01:08):
Maxwell fix her mouth to appeal to the US Supreme Court?
And again on our dime. Remember Maxwell actually went. I
visited the scene to play grounds in New York and
many urban areas. The public playgrounds are fenced in chainlink.
(01:32):
They're usually asphalt like you know, basketball court, outdoor basketball court,
and you can pull up in her case in a
limo beside the playground and she would actually spot girls
at recess on the playground such as it is to
(01:53):
lure them, to entrap them into becoming sex slaves for
her love Jeffrey Epstein. And now she's appealing her conviction
all the way to the US Supreme Court. What happened?
What do we know about what was proven against Elaine Maxwell? Now,
(02:18):
to crime online dot COM's Levi Paige Levi, we know
what Epstein did about much of the molestation of young girls.
He committed and got away with it because he was rich.
But what about the women who enabled him? Who is
Elaine Maxwell?
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Jallaine Maxwell. Nancy is a woman who is from the UK.
Her father is very rich and powerful from there, she
inherited a lot of money After his death, she came
to the United States, New York City, and she was
a socialite. She hung out with Ivanka Trump. She met
Jeffrey Epstein, would hang around with him, and it is
(02:58):
alleged she would find underage girls under eighteen tell them that, Hey,
I have a friend. His name is Jeffrey Epstein. He
needs a masseuse, will pay you to come give him
a massage. It wasn't a massage. They were raped. And
she is the woman that allegedly entrapped these young women
(03:21):
in his evil plot.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
Take a listen now to Netflix Filthy Rich.
Speaker 3 (03:28):
How did you meet mister Revski like two years ago
or so?
Speaker 4 (03:33):
About two years ago?
Speaker 5 (03:34):
Yeah, when you first.
Speaker 4 (03:35):
Met him, Yeah, you were seventeen. Then what is it
that you were told you would have to do?
Speaker 1 (03:42):
Give him a massage? Yeah, well that's some massage that
ended up in molesting young girls. To actually Willcott a
judge and trial lawyer, court TV anchor, you're hearing one
Epstein victims speaking to law enforcement. But there were multiple
young girls that have the same story. I mean, how
(04:03):
likely is it that multiple young girls have the same story,
girls that are separated in time and space and don't
know each other.
Speaker 6 (04:11):
Yeah, it's not at all likely. There's so many different
pieces aspects of this that really are bothersome to me,
and I don't understand all of these girls do have
the same story. If you have an adult that's assisting,
that's getting, that's soliciting, that adult should have been charged
with child and endangerment, accessories, soliciting any of those things.
(04:33):
The other thing, though, is he was smart in a criminal,
disgusting way that he would use miners to try to
get other girls.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
Well, apparently, according to reports, he didn't just use miners
to recruit their friends for underage sex. He used an accomplished,
educated woman, Gillan Maxwell. Take a listen to this.
Speaker 4 (04:58):
In two thousand and five, the parent to a young
girl called the police station.
Speaker 7 (05:02):
Well, Hi, how are you.
Speaker 8 (05:03):
I'm good.
Speaker 9 (05:04):
I'm returning to a call.
Speaker 7 (05:05):
I I apologize.
Speaker 10 (05:06):
I don't know exactly what four it's okay.
Speaker 11 (05:08):
It was an incident that occurred maybe like three three
and a half.
Speaker 5 (05:11):
Weeks ago with one of my stepdaughters.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
One day at cool guys would a.
Speaker 7 (05:14):
Fight and she had over three hundred dollars on.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
Her So after asking on asking on, asking.
Speaker 10 (05:19):
Out what was going on, found out that ended.
Speaker 5 (05:22):
Up being that they went upon beach to a gentleman's
house and they start off by giving the sentiment a
massage and he pays them if he likes them, and
he thinks that they're pretty enough to keep some eys.
Speaker 12 (05:31):
To do other things.
Speaker 13 (05:32):
Okay, I was if I said.
Speaker 7 (05:35):
There was an investigation or if you guys had any world, I.
Speaker 3 (05:37):
Think, well, this is the first hearing of it.
Speaker 9 (05:40):
Okay, what I will need is more information. Would your
steptor would be willing to come in to provide me
with the statement.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
This is a two thousand and five recorded conversation with
a police officer where Officer Pagan returns a call to
a grown woman making a complaint two thousand and five
billionaire Jeffrey Epstein recruiting young girls from school. From school,
She says her stepdaughter has this huge wad of money,
(06:10):
and that the stepdaughter finally admits to her she went
to this rich guy's house. Epstein gave him a massage
and then it escalated to other things. The woman who
allegedly made his underage sex that's called statutory rape possible.
A jet setter millionaire in her own right, Gillan Maxwell,
(06:34):
who apparently in the Last Days brags it comes out
quote look for Jeffrey's type and I bring him home.
This is according to Prince Andrew of Britain's cousin tells
how Gillan Maxwell brags that she recruited young underage girls
for Epstein from trailer parks and that she Gillan Maxwell
(07:00):
intent on marrying Jeffrey Epstein. She would go out and
recruit young girls to be statutory raped by a billionaire,
and why in the world would she want to marry
Jeffrey Epstein. Take a listen to Jeffrey Epstein himself on Netflix.
Speaker 4 (07:23):
Have you ever been convicted of a crime?
Speaker 14 (07:26):
Yes?
Speaker 4 (07:27):
What was the crime of which you were convicted? Two counts?
Speaker 15 (07:33):
One soliciting prostitution and procuring a minor for prostitution?
Speaker 4 (07:42):
Did you in fact commit those acts? I'm going to
invokee my fifth Amendment? Right, How many times have you
solicited a miner for prostitution? Same answer? How many times
have you solicited a miner for prostitution in the state
of Florida? The same answer? Have you ever solicited a
miner for prostitution of the Virgin Islands? Same answer? That
(08:04):
is the you are invoting your fifth Amendment? Yes, right, yes,
missus skill. Have you ever solicited for prostitution in New York?
Same answer? Have you ever soled solicited for prostitution in
New Mexico? Same answer? Have you ever solicited for prostitution
in Paris? Same answer? Have you ever solicited a miner
for prostitution anywhere? At any time? I'm going to certainly
(08:27):
Righte's taking you out here. We're going to go through everything.
So you are terminating the deposition. If it is time
for the recess of the deposition.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
As if he had not solicited prostitution with a minor
a child in all of those places in New York, Paris, London,
the Island and the Caribbean, he would have said, no,
I haven't. If someone came up and said, hey, are
you guilty of soliciting prostitution with the miner, and I'm like,
(08:55):
I would say no, absolutely not. Instead he had votes
his right to the Fifth Amendment, your right to remain silent.
This is after already pleading guilty to prostitution with a
miner in Florida, where he got a slap on the wrist.
But the billionaire pedophile Jeffrey Epstein is one issue. Another
(09:19):
can of worms is the socialite millionaire in her own right,
Gillan Maxwell, who got the girls for him to doctor
Bethany Marshall. Did you hear where a cousin of Prince
Andrew We know it now to be? Christina Oxenburg talked
about how Gillen Maxwell bragged that she would procure, as
(09:41):
she said, procure underage girls for Epstein and very often
would focus on trailer parks to find his victims. Did
you hear that? It makes me so mad I wanted
she and Nail in half.
Speaker 16 (09:56):
Okay, Nancy. I thought about the pattern of of child
sex crimes and how they're similar, whether it's Michael Jackson
or we have Harvey Weinstein, or we have Jeffrey Epstein.
So Gilan Maxwell found women who were financially vulnerable. Michael
Jackson found children from poor families. Harvey Weinstein found women
(10:21):
who were wanting a role in a movie script. They
all entice them and offer something big, like for a
thirteen or fourteen year old, two or three hundred dollars
for a massage. I mean that's everything. You could go
buy a purse, you go buy a pair of shoes.
Michael Jackson built like a whole scene park to lore children.
(10:42):
Weinstein offered them these huge movie roles. You can see
the pattern is the same from perpetrator to perpetrator. They
always find victims that are at the fringe of society
and they think won't tell on them. You know, everybody's
surprised that a woman like Gilan Maxwell would procure these
girls and then want to marry Jeffrey Epstein. But it
(11:03):
is not uncommon for women to make crimes against children
in concert with the man they love.
Speaker 6 (11:09):
Look at children who are molested.
Speaker 16 (11:12):
By stepfathers, and the mothers stand by and do nothing,
or they go and they find rape victims for their
husbands or their partners. Women do act in concert with
men all the time. In this case, it's just more
dramatic because there is so much money. I do practice
in Beverly Hills where there's a lot of money, and
(11:33):
with there's a lot of money, there's a lot of
cover ups.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
The woman who made it possible for him to locate
and recruit little girls to rape and molest and pay
off and keep silent. Her name is Glaine Maxwell. Take
a listen now to Jeffrey Epstein speaking on the Netflix
(11:56):
special Filthy Rich emphasis on.
Speaker 17 (12:00):
Let's talk about Jingo one and two. Virginia Roberts. Do
you know Virginia Roberts? So she's again.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
Who Virginia Roberts?
Speaker 4 (12:14):
Can you spell it.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
Common spelling Virginia.
Speaker 4 (12:19):
Like the states? Can you spell it? Will you please? Roberts?
How's what's the last name?
Speaker 17 (12:23):
How's the spelling.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
R O B E R T S.
Speaker 4 (12:28):
I believe isn't it true that you.
Speaker 17 (12:31):
And Glenn Maxwell celebrated her sixteenth birthday with her and
had sex with her on that.
Speaker 15 (12:38):
Day farm compound, confusing an argument in the passing.
Speaker 17 (12:45):
I'd like to answer that question, but today I'm gonna
have to assert my sixth Amendment rights, my fifth Amendment rights.
Is it true that you forced Virginia Roberts to have
sex with numerous friends of yours?
Speaker 18 (13:00):
An a hole?
Speaker 1 (13:03):
Can you spell Virginia?
Speaker 8 (13:07):
No?
Speaker 1 (13:07):
Spell it? No spell it, he says to opposing counsel,
and the last name Roberts. Spell it? What a jackass? Well,
he invoked the wrong amendment. He's sixth, but he meant fifth.
He corrected himself. But he's making co counsel opposing counsel
(13:29):
spell the name of one of his alleged victims. I
want you to listen to what this girl, Virginia Roberts says. Listen.
Speaker 11 (13:39):
I first met Prince Andrew March tenth, two thousand and
one in London at Gillan's townhouse.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
He knocked on the door.
Speaker 11 (13:50):
He came inside Gilen's townhouse, and we're sitting there having tea.
Ellen has his favorite guessing game that she does. She
goes Prince Andrew, how well do you think Virginia's and
he said seventeen and She's like, oh, you're right, and
you know they made a little joke about it. It's like, oh,
my daughters aren't far from your age.
Speaker 8 (14:12):
You know.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
My daughter's a little bit younger than you.
Speaker 11 (14:16):
We went out for the night club Tramp in London
and he dances and he's profusely sweating over.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
Me and it was disgusting. She's talking about Prince Andrew
hooked up with Prince Andrew, who she says had sex
with her here she is a minor. Andrew denies it
Sweats Buckets on TV, but then says she had to
be lying about their encounter. I call it child rape
because at that time he had an ailment where he
(14:47):
couldn't sweat. That was actually his defense. I want to
go to you to Ashley Willcott, judge and trial lawyer,
court TV anchor Ashley, when you hear statement that is
so rich in detail, it gives credence to it. And
the fact that she says Gillan Maxwell introduces her to
(15:08):
Prince Andrew at this location. Then they go to club
Tramp where he came on to her. Andrew sweated profusely
and there turns up to me. Although Andrew denies knowing
her a picture of her with Andrew with his arm
around her after Andrew says I've never met her. The
(15:30):
details that she described Ashley, that Prince Andrew said, hey,
you're about the age of my two daughters. That detail
to me has the ring of truth absolutely.
Speaker 6 (15:43):
So, first of all, I always believe a juvenile a child.
This is a child, absolutely. Second of all, you're right
all of those specific details. When people lie that don't
make up all of those little specific details, how are
they going to come up with something to say? Oh,
swating profusely?
Speaker 1 (16:01):
Long story short. According to the source Oxenburgh, Gillen Maxwell
brags to Prince Andrew's cousin she recruited girls from trailer
parks in Palm Beach to bring them to Jeffrey Epstein.
Oxenburgh says Maxwell told her I look for what I
know is Epstein's type, and I bring them home. That
(16:26):
she Gillan Maxwell was quote proud to be a recruiter
for the pedophile during a meeting with Oxenburgh, who was
an author and a socialite who was brought in, I
guess to write Gillen Maxwell's memoir. Oxenburgh claims that Maxwell
(16:46):
was not dating Epstein, although she wanted to marry Epstein.
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace in the Last Days Epstein
accomplice Julianne Maxwell appeals her conviction all the way to
(17:08):
the US Supreme Court. What do we know about the
evidence against Maxwell?
Speaker 14 (17:16):
Operation GGO Get Gilaine Out was started by family friend
Brian Bastram. He claims that Maxwell's human rights are being violated,
that she is forced to wear paper clothing with no
broad due to the risk of suicide. He also claims
that since her incarceration, Maxwell a vegan, has dropped twenty
five pounds due to improper diet. Bashram claims that when
(17:37):
Maxwell complained about losing so much weight, prison officials removed
her skills to stop her from weighing herself. He says
that prison guards have stopped talking to Maxwell while she
spends her days isolated in a nine foot by seven
foot cell. Bashram says that isolation is being extended to
her mail as well. He claims that family letters are
being vindictively not given to her. Brian Bashram says he
(17:59):
finds it appalling that Maxwell was still in custody when
other sex offenders like Harvey Weinstein and Bill Cosby were
granted bail. Maxwell has denied all six counts relating to
child sex trafficking, procurement, and perjury.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
Here you're hearing our friend Dave Matt from Crime online
dot Com maybe has something to do with Weinstein's victims
being adult as opposed to Epstein and Gillen Maxwell's alleged
victims being children at the time they were sex trafficked. Again,
I'm Nancy Gray, so I want to thank you for
being with us this as Operation g G Get gill
(18:34):
and Maxwell out of jail is underway? Will it happen?
Joining me an all star panel to break you down
and put it back together again. First of all, high
profile lawyer out of Seattle joining me. Trial lawyer Ann Bremner,
former prosecutor, also with me and renow to New York
psychologists joining me from Manhattan. Karen Start at Karenstark dot com.
(18:56):
That's Karen with a c former special agent with the FBI,
screen writer on Criminal Minds, Bobby Chacone. Also with me.
Melissa Cron, an investigative journalist and author. Melissa is so
great to have you with us. Melissa also the author
of a brand new book about Epstein. And an upcoming
(19:17):
Epstein book called Epstein Inc. Melissa cronin what do you
make of the news that there is a movement underfoot
to have Gillen Maxwell sprung from jail?
Speaker 7 (19:28):
So this man, Brian Bosham said that he finds it
appalling how she's being treated in prison, and anyone who
knows anything about this case finds it appalling that someone
would think there was any chance this woman should be released.
It's just another example of how delusional she is.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
I mean, Epstein himself was not released on bond with
all of the claims made against him. She's part and
parcel of all those claims. I think part of it
has to do with that sweetheart deal he got down
in PAULM Beach when he basically had house arrest for
part of the day and could go in and out
of the jail at his will. There was a parade
(20:07):
of young girls going in and out of his office
when he was on day passes from the jail. So
I'm sure that they're concerned Gilan Maxwell will either take
off or end up dead if she is released. What
do you make of her claims that she is being
let me just say, single out for bad treatment.
Speaker 7 (20:30):
Like I said before, I think she's totally delusional because
she just has to realize that she might have gotten
away with it for years so far, but now the
hand of justice has come down on her and she's
not getting away with it. She's not going to get
special treatment, she's not going to get her contour and
her vegan diet. She just has to wake up to
the reality that her time has come and she's going
(20:52):
to have to pay for what she did.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
What do you who is Brian Basham. I only know
that he has a family friend of Gilan Maxwell, who
is the one reporting from behind jailhouse walls that she
has lost so much weight that her skills were taken away.
I've got news for everybody. I don't think inmates have
scales and their jail cell. That's a load of bs.
(21:14):
That's the technical legal term. But I don't think that
you and Bremner. You're the high profile lawyer out of Seattle.
I have never once in all the jails I've ever
been in, seen an inmate with a set of scales.
Speaker 8 (21:28):
Great mind sinkle like Nancio. That's the first thing I thought.
It was, like, I've never heard of an inmate having
scales in their cell and having them taken away because
they're losing weight. I mean, that just does not ring true.
And if it's true, it's the first.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
What a big fat lie. Now isn't it true? In
Bremner a former prosecutor but now civil and defense lawyer,
isn't it true? And that had the close of every
felony case, the jury is instructed by the judge that
(22:01):
when a person, a witness, be it a defendant, a cop,
doesn't matter, is caught line under oath, even if it's
about something small. The jury will then have the decision
the opportunity if they wish to discount all that witness's
testimony in toto in total, if that witness is caught line.
(22:24):
Would you agree or disagree that that is the state
of the law.
Speaker 8 (22:26):
I agree completely. It's the false in one, false in all.
It's the Latin term I think is falsest in union,
falsest in pluran.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
Well, you're up in the game, thrown you Latin phrase it?
If that me? So, let me break it down. If
this is being reported by the so called family friend
that her scale has been taken out of her jail cell,
there is no way in hubl an inmate and a
high security CI Correctional institute is going to have a scale.
(22:55):
It'll take about a New York minute for one of
those inmates to pick that up and back a warden,
a trustee or another inmate right in the skull and
kill them right there with the scales. Okay, So that's BS.
And if he's lying about that, or someone is lying
about that, then why should I believe any of this? BS?
Speaker 10 (23:17):
No, I completely agree.
Speaker 8 (23:18):
I'm not going to use the Latin again. But you
can't believe anything they say. I mean, that is so preposterous.
I mean, and she can't wear a bra, but she
can have a scale. You know, I don't get it.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
So we're all s you know here, because Bobby, you count.
I knew that wouldn't take long ago ahead, Bobby.
Speaker 12 (23:32):
I mean, it's so called I mean this so called friends,
family friend that he's being described. I mean, I think
he's also been described as a PR professional. So I
think that he might be one of these crisis management
guys that's brought in to start this campaign. And they're
tolding it a campaign as it's a grassroots movement of
people that want her out. When in all probability she
(23:55):
is paying for this service. She's paying probably for this
family friend here professional to kind of start this whole movement,
if you will. And I don't think there's a whole
bunch of people behind this movement.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
She is saying that she is being singled out because
of vindictive treatment is being heaped upon her. Back to
Melissa Crownin, an investigative journalists who has already written one book,
Jeffrey Epstein Dead Man Tale, No Tales, and she has
an upcoming book, Epstein Inc. Coming out I believe in November, Melissa,
what is at the crux of the movement to get
(24:30):
this alleged child sex trafficker out from behind bars?
Speaker 7 (24:33):
Naty, It's very important for everyone to understand that, as
he said, this is not a family friend. This is
a PR professional that has been working for Delaine for
more than ten years. He was actually brought in as
a third party on the Jufrey versus Maxwell lawsuits years
ago because the attorney's found emails between Delaine and the
(24:57):
PR company on which he was c seed. Now the
PR company is called Acuity Reputation and they have offices
in London also in Moscow. The founder is on the
advisory board of the Moscow International Finance Committee. So that's
a whole other thread that people might want to pull
on in the coming week. But I think it's just
(25:17):
a distraction technique. The fact is that day after day,
week after weeks, more victims come forward to tell their stories,
and she's not going to be able to achieve justice
this time.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
Guys, take a listen to our friend Mela Linghi at
CBS News. Listen. She had his money, he had her contacts.
They made a great group that way. But Glynn was
much more snivy and smart than Epstein ever was.
Speaker 5 (25:44):
At one point during the deposition, Giuffray's attorney, Sigrid McCauley,
appeared to ask Maxwell about the now infamous picture of
Giuffrey and the UK's Prince Andrew. Geffray says she had
sex with the Prince at Maxwell's London home that night.
The Prince has repeatly denied guphrase allegations, and Maxwell called
Giphra's account of the incident an obvious lie. In the deposition,
(26:07):
Maxwell said Guphrey characterized things took place in my bathroom.
In the bathtub itself, the tub is too small for
any type of activity whatsoever.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
Okay, let me understand this. She is claiming that Virginia
Robert's statements are false because her Gillen Maxwell's tub is
not big enough to have sex in. Really, because I'm
pretty sure if people can have sex in the bathroom
on a plane, they can do it in a bathtub.
(26:38):
I don't care how big the bathtub or how small
the bathtub is. I mean, I'm not an engineer from
Georgia Tech or MIT, but I can figure that much out.
You know, it's very interesting. Bobby Chaconne is joining me,
former special agent FBI screenwriter Criminal minds. What my longtime
friend Ricky Kleman over at CBS is saying. Maxwell can't
(27:01):
just say Virginia Jeffries is lying. Lie, she's lying. You
got to come up with more than that and the
size of your bathtub because there are multiple young girls,
not just Virginia Jeffries. That's saying the same thing. Maxwell
recruited them sometimes from near the playground at the middle
school to give Epstein massages, which turned sexual. It's more
(27:26):
than just Virginia Jeffries.
Speaker 12 (27:28):
Bobby Chickne, that's right, Nancy, And actually I did the
tend Georgia Tech. So I am one of those people
you referred to. But you know you're right. When they
can't attack you know, the basic facts of the case.
When you have so many victims coming forth telling very
similar stories about the recruitment and about the behavior that
they were subjected to, you have to start nit picking
(27:48):
at different things. That's why they want the names of
the victims now published so they can harass them. This
is a very astile, very aggressive defense team that Maxwell had.
You can see it as far about is this deposition
that she gave, how hostile she is, and you can
see through their motions now how hostile they're being towards
the victim.
Speaker 13 (28:07):
They have to go after the victims.
Speaker 12 (28:08):
Because it's the only thing they have because they can't
attack the facts.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
But it's still going to be a very difficult task.
Maybe one victim can be impeached, but when you've got
multiple victims separated in time and space, all saying the
same thing, it's going to be much more difficult to
discredit them. Although it happened in the Michael Jackson case
and Bremner, all the boy victims were all discredited and
(28:36):
they were generally saying the same thing, Am Bremner.
Speaker 8 (28:39):
That's exactly what happened. Nancy and I saw it front
row seat, and that trial. You and I covered that
every day, and that's exactly what happened. There were multiple
victims they said the same thing. There was definitely a pattern,
and it came in with I don't remember how many
boys now, but quite a few, and they were not believed.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
Apparently, guys. Will all the victims be attack to trial?
Will there be a trial, because right now Gilan Maxwell's
supporters are starting a movement to get Gilan Maxwell out
of jail, the Goo movement. If she gets out to you,
Melissa cron An investigative journalist, Gilan Maxwell has three passports
(29:20):
that I know of. She I think has remarried. All
that's being kept under wraps. She has money, power and
privilege at her fingertips and is more than capable of
getting a private plane out of here and never coming back.
Speaker 12 (29:40):
It's true.
Speaker 7 (29:41):
She's not just capable of finding a private plane, she's
capable of flying it herself. She was actually a helicopter
pilot for Jeffrey Epstein and buried the victims back and
forth from the island. But it's true She is one
of the biggest light risks that I've ever seen or
heard of in my entire journalistic career because she doesn't
have money and connections herself, her entire family does. She
(30:03):
has seven living siblings, and two of them, her sisters.
Speaker 12 (30:07):
Isabelle and Christine.
Speaker 7 (30:08):
Were actually one of the early founders of the one
of the first search engines, so they have times of money.
They're millionaires in themselves. She has the French passport, she
was born in France, and basically the options are endless
for her, and she actually gets out of prison. So
I think everyone involved in this case knows that that
can't happen.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
Crime stories with Nancy Grace Julane Maxwell May she wrought
in hell. Already four people connected to the Epstein case
have committed to suicide, thanks Maxwell, and now she's on
her way for her lawyers to argue to the US
Supreme Court. It never ends. The pamp for billionaire Jeffrey
(31:00):
Say literally trolling the school yard to cut little girls
and bring them in for Epstein to molest. All done
and said, right, case closed, guilty, Not so fast. Take
a listen to our friend Tom Winter.
Speaker 15 (31:19):
In may Sty tonight in a trial that's centered on
sexual abuse. Two jurors revealed they too have experienced abuse
their own personal experiences, now pushing Golane Maxwell's attorneys to
ask for a new case at issue. Legal experts say
whether or not the two were adequately forthcoming about their
experiences before trial. A man identifying himself as Scotti David
(31:42):
was one of the jurors. He spoke to several media outlets,
including The Daily Mail dot com.
Speaker 4 (31:47):
I don't want to call her a monster.
Speaker 15 (31:50):
A predator is the right word, David, known as Juror
Number fifty, says. Other jurors voiced out about some of
the accusers.
Speaker 19 (31:57):
Some people were like, how can they keep going back?
Speaker 12 (32:00):
Why would their moms allow them to do that?
Speaker 19 (32:02):
And I was like, we can't judge them based on
what they did or didn't do.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
They they're fourteen.
Speaker 12 (32:09):
They don't really have the wherewithal to know really what's
right and wrong.
Speaker 15 (32:13):
A second juror who requested anonymity, told The New York
Times they were sexually abused as a child, and that
they had also discussed the experience during deliberations.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
Is the Glaine Maxwell guilty verdict doomed? I say no
for legal reasons, will there have to be a new
trial with me? Doctor Teresa gil professors psychology, has spent
years working with child abste and trauma victims. Joseph Scott Morgan,
Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My
(32:46):
Fate on Amazon and host of Bodybags with Joe Scott
Morgan on iHeart. Special guest joining us Charlie Langston, editor
at Daily Mail with Female and When Yuhright, California prosecutor,
author Red Flags at Wendypatrick PhD dot com and host
of Today with Doctor Wendy on kc b Q. First
(33:08):
of you, Charlie Langston, before I get into the legalities
of whether this requires a whole new trial for Gelaine Maxwell,
who no doubt did it over and over and over,
even molesting some of the little girls herself, tell me
what's happening this? Does you know? Charlie? I find this
(33:31):
really hard to believe because I never tried a case
ever without asking the entire panel. Do any of you
know anyone, even if it's yourself, a neighbor, a family member,
that have been a victim of a crime. Have any
of you been a victim of a crime, and the
(33:56):
converse to that is, do you know anybody that's been convicted?
Anybody can't hand have you been convicted? So I find
it really hard to believe that these high profile lawyers
and veteran prosecutors did not ask that question.
Speaker 13 (34:11):
Well, I think it's worth pointing out that we don't
actually know for sure right now that that question was
not asked. What we do know is that Juras have
said that they were not asked specifically whether they were
victims of sexual abuse. So the question is whether they
(34:33):
interpreted the question of have you ever committed a crime?
Have you ever been the victim of a crime. It
may be that they did not interpret that question correctly
and did not feel that their experiences with sexual abuse
were the correct answer to that. So, you know, if
they were the victims of sexual abuse and their abuses
(34:53):
were never convicted, they may not have felt that it
was a crime that was committed. If that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (34:59):
Yes, I see what you're saying. They could have been
molested or abused and not realized that that was a
crime if it were never prosecuted. I think long story short,
do you know that song? Winnie Patrick, California prosecutor. I
feel a bad moon coming. I feel about rising. I
(35:21):
feel a bad moon rising. You know there's trouble on
the way. Charlie Langston with US dailymail dot com. How
many jurors do we think we have right now that
are coming out?
Speaker 13 (35:35):
We believe that there are at least three. However, there
is a fourth durer whose sources tell us is also
under question and may have also been the victim of
sexual abuse. So as we heard the first DURA who
said that they were the victim of sexual abuse with
Scotti David, he spoke to us about his experiences, a
(35:56):
second jura, who is remaining anonymous, has spoken to The
New York Times, and we reported over the weekend that
a third DURA has been found by Gie Lane's legal
team to have experienced sexual abuse. And the really big
issue here is that both Scottie David and the second
anonymous duror have admitted that they spoke about their own
(36:19):
experiences with sexual abuse during deliberations, and both of those
jurors have said that they believed that their stories helped
to influence the way that the other jurors went about
their deliberations.
Speaker 1 (36:32):
Here's one hold on just a moment I want you
to hear durre Our Scottie David speaking to dailymail dot
com rakat c. You decided to share your story.
Speaker 4 (36:44):
That's something that has used to yes too. In the questionnaire,
something that you people are aware of when you were
selected as a juror.
Speaker 19 (36:52):
No, they don't ask your sexual abuse history. They didn't
ask him in the questionnaire.
Speaker 7 (36:57):
I thought in the questionaire there was a question that
asked you were a victim or if you were a friend.
Speaker 4 (37:01):
Or that's a victim, appreciate It was some forty eight.
Speaker 9 (37:10):
I don't remember.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
Somebody said you the questionaire today and there was a question.
Speaker 4 (37:15):
Interesting.
Speaker 13 (37:17):
I mean, I guess when did you fail them that question?
Speaker 19 (37:20):
I definitely on the first day of jury selection. I
would have definitely marked yes. But I honestly don't remember
that question.
Speaker 1 (37:28):
You're not the sun. No. No, I mean, I know
my face is rights. I can fill the blood, but
I honestly.
Speaker 19 (37:34):
That's why I answered it that way. I don't remember
it being there, but I did answer. I definitely remember
a family or relative or something, but being sexually abused.
Speaker 4 (37:44):
I was honest on all my questions.
Speaker 1 (37:47):
Okay, So he sounds a little unclear on what he remembers. Okay,
back to you, Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor. Jurors always talk
about their own experienperiences in jer our deliberation, in jury deliberations.
That's not uncommon. We expect that to happen. So tell
me what you see as the big issue here, Wendy Patrick.
Speaker 10 (38:10):
I think the big issue is how these jurors were
interpreting sexual abuse. You know. I know that if we
don't break down that term as we often do in deliberations,
if it's actually part of what's charged, if we simply
ask them in dear and let it hang out there,
I can tell you many jurors think it means forced
inner course. They don't think about it as being touching, masturbation,
(38:32):
some of the you hate to say, lesser forms of abuse,
But we have to put them on a spectrum somewhere,
because if jurors are honestly envisioning the rape scenarios, when
they hear a word like sexual abuse, that kind of
a term, they're not going to disclose some other types
of abuse until they get in a deliberation room. So
this may be legally significant because it wouldn't necessarily indicate
(38:55):
dishonesty during the wadear process.
Speaker 1 (38:57):
Okay, what I'm trying to get at is is there
going to be a brand new trial for Madam Herve
Gilaine Maxwell, or will the state take a cheap plea
rather than retry the case if it rises to that? Now,
the fact that jurors during jury liberations talk about their
(39:21):
own personal experiences, there's nothing wrong with that. That always happens.
You expect that to happen. You want people to draw
on their past experiences as they reach a verdict. That's
not going to be a problem. I want you to
listen to our cut be our friends at CBS News.
Speaker 3 (39:39):
Before the trial, potential jurors were asked to fill out
this questionnaire, including this question have you ever been the
victim of sexual assault? One juror, using only his first
and middle names, Scottie David fulled Reuters he can't remember
if he disclosed his own claims of sex abuse, saying
he flew through the initial questionnaire.
Speaker 4 (39:58):
He's old.
Speaker 3 (39:59):
Routers would have answered the.
Speaker 20 (40:00):
Questions honestly, prosecutors told the judge overseeing the trial. The
statement's merit attention by the court. Maxwell's lawyers then told
the judge she can and should order a new trial.
A separateurer told The New York Times they spoke of
their own sexual abuse during deliberations, which the paper says
appeared to help shape the jury's discussions.
Speaker 1 (40:21):
This woman, according to a jury, according to multiple child victims,
went out even on school playgrounds, trolling for little girls
around fourteen that we know of, to bring back to
her boyfriend, Jeffrey Epstein, the billionaire that hangs out with
Clinton and Trump and all sorts of millionaires and very
(40:43):
wealthy influential people for him to molest over and over
and over until they aged out, and he wanted somebody
even younger. Yes, this is her. She just gets convicted
finally after a massive federal trial. And now only now
do the jurors decide they're gonna come forward and say, oh, yeah,
(41:05):
I was molested. Well, what about that GURR questionnaire? Do
anybody hear what I just heard? The question number forty
eight specifically asked have you ever been the victim of
sex assault? According to CBS News, now here's the reality
when you're talking about a jury trial. Back to you,
(41:29):
Wendy Patrick, A lot of people may have been a
crime victim. But the issue is can you listen to
the facts in evidence brought in at trial, not what
you may have read the paper, and render a verdict
that speaks the truth. That's the question. Doesn't matter if
you've been a victim not a victim, if you're black,
(41:49):
if you're white, if you're a man, if you're a woman,
if you're a Christian, if you're an atheist, it doesn't matter.
It's can you render a verdict that speaks the truth? Yes,
Wendy Patrick, Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 10 (42:02):
The answer is yes. And so the jurors that are
talking out afterwards are basically saying what they said influence
the other jurors ability to be fair and try the
case on the facts they heard from the witness stand.
Speaker 1 (42:14):
No, no, no, that's not what they said. They said it,
Charlie Langston. Aren't they saying that them recounting their experiences
a stake to the jury deliberations, not that it made
them unfair or im or partial.
Speaker 13 (42:33):
They didn't say that it made them unfair. What they said,
I mean, what the second juris said specifically was that
their experiences of sexual assault had helped to shape the
jury's discussions. So effectively, What the two jurors who have
spoken out have said is that in them sharing their
recollections of sexual abuse, it made the other jurors understand
(42:55):
more how victims of sexual abuse may continue to recall
their experiences, and I think in doing so, the jury
was maybe able to realize a little bit more clearly
just how well the trauma of abuse sticks with you
throughout the years. So Maxwell's legal team one of their
big arguments was to try and say that these women
(43:17):
were coming forward because they wanted money, that they couldn't
really remember what had gone on, And these jurors who
spoke of their own experiences of sexual abuse were effectively
helping the other jurors to realize that, no, these recollections
do really stick with you, and you know, you are
still able to recall a lot of details in very
kind of specific ways. However, other, you know, facts might
(43:41):
be a little bit more blurry as time goes on.
Speaker 21 (43:44):
That wash wait wait wait, wait wait, Okay, this happens
when you're crime vactim. I will never forget for years
and years and years, even when I was a prosecutor,
I would not reveal did.
Speaker 1 (43:56):
Not they want to talk about it. To other people
that my fiance I've been murdered just before our wedding.
And that changed the course of my life and my career,
and that's why I became a prosecutor. It was nobody's business.
I didn't want to talk about it, but I remember
it very well. And then I finally am publicly telling
my story at request of Larry King. And do you
(44:19):
know he asked me, when did this happen? And I
said August sixth, and I screwed up the year. I
don't remember what year, I said, but I screwed up
the year Keith was murdered. Why did I do that?
I don't know. Now. I remember so many things vividly.
And then of course I was attacked like crazy about
(44:42):
just everything because I screwed up the year on national TV.
Now one thing, correct me if I'm wrong, and then
everybody jump in. Charlie, this guy, Scottie David explained to
the jurors some aspects of his abuse had been easier
to recall than other quote. I remember the color of
the carpet, the walls. Some of it can be replayed
(45:04):
like a video. I do that too, but I can't
remember all the details. There are some things that run together.
And in his talking to the jury, according to him Charlie,
he says that the jurors were going, Wow, well, why
didn't the parents let this happen? Didn't they notice their
children weren't home at the right time? And because of
(45:25):
what he had gone through, he told the jurors women,
you can't judge the victims like that are their parents.
They're just fourteen years old, for Pete's sake. So do
I have that right, Charlie Lanx.
Speaker 13 (45:36):
Yes. Effectively, he was helping the jury to understand, as
a victim himself, why some of these women might be
able to recall certain details, as you said, in a
very specific way, but not be able to remember other things,
as you said, like dates or times, or you know,
even the location of where the abuse happened, because that,
(45:57):
you know. I'm not, unfortunately an expert, but that's the
way human brain works. When you go through an incredibly
traumatic experience, sometimes you do try and block out the
more painful aspect.
Speaker 1 (46:09):
Okay, I heard everybody jump in. I heard I know,
I Jo gott Morgan, yeah, j hit me.
Speaker 22 (46:16):
Yeah, listen, I got to tell you, you know, I'm
hearing the words molestation and sexual abuse being thrown around
a lot. I got to remind everybody here that she
was not charged or accused of those things. Officially from
a legal perspective, She's charged with enticement of a minor,
transportation of a minor, sex, trafficking of a minor, and
(46:38):
three counts of conspiracy. So you know, if abuse or
molestation is an element of that crime, which you know,
for those that don't understand elements, it's a it's a
building block of the crime. Maybe that's the case. But
you know, to to the other point here where these
you know, during this this questionnaire where they actually asked, well,
(46:59):
do you have any experience with trafficking? Do you have
any experience with enticement? Do you have any experience with
the transportation of a minor? You know, you know, to
for tat, you know, is that the case because right
now all I'm hearing is molestation and abuse and she
wasn't charged with us things.
Speaker 1 (47:15):
Next to doctor Troy sa Gill joining as professor's psychology
and author way in doctor Well.
Speaker 9 (47:21):
In terms of memory, we know that the hippocampus is
important for memory formation and recall. However, people understress such
as children who are experiencing abuse. The body goes into
fight flight. Adrenaline and cortisol are released, and all of
a sudden, the hippocampus is switched off and it goes
(47:43):
into the abigdala and the amygdala is not good for memory, recall, formation,
or retrieval. And that's why a lot of the people
who were on trial and his victims don't have really
clear memories. And that's why they can do what you did,
(48:04):
particularly if they're understress during the trial. They go back
to the amiddaler and they can remember feeling and body memories,
but they can't remember particular facts. And that's actually what
Elizabeth Lostis was bringing out in the trial was why
there is false memories. And that's what the juror said
(48:27):
that he tried to clarify to the jury when they're
in deliberations, because many of them said that they were confused.
Why in twenty eighteen, nineteen, and twenty they gave one story.
The victims gave one story to the federal government, and
now they're giving another story.
Speaker 1 (48:47):
I don't think that the victims gave different stories. I
think that under the appropriate questioning, more facts came out.
On the stand, because when you ask somebody, okay, what
happened and then they tell you, well, then you may
want to ask, well, do you remember what time of
(49:08):
year it was, do you remember what the part was wearing?
Do you remember what you were wearing? Do you remember
who let you into the home? Do you remember if
there were any maids there, anybody else at Epstein's home.
There are a million questions that you can ask where
the victim would add to the story, not necessarily change
the story.
Speaker 2 (49:26):
Charlie, No, and I.
Speaker 13 (49:27):
Don't think I mean, you know, from my experience of
kind of reading through everything that went on with the trial,
I don't think that any of the victims were particularly
doubtful in any of their you know, kind of testimonies.
I think that all of the victims spoke very clearly
about what they had been through and Delane's part in that, which,
(49:50):
you know, as we've pointed out, we aren't kind of
looking here at a charge for sexual abuse at the
hands of Glane. What we are looking for is kind
of does of trafficking and enticement, and every single one
of the victims was able to give very clear testimony
about the part that Gilaine played in, you know, kind
(50:11):
of Epstein's trafficking ring effectively. So when it comes to
a jura like Scotti, David explaining to his other juras,
you know what it is like to be the victim
of sexual abuse, and what it is like to kind
of try and recall those memories. I don't think that
he in any way kind of made duras completely change
(50:33):
their minds about witness testimonies. I think what he was
trying to do was offer what some of the victims
weren't able to say, which is sometimes my memory is
a little bit blurry. Sometimes I can't recall certain facts.
But what I can recall and what I know to
be true, is what I went through. Just because I
can't remember whether it happened on a Tuesday or a
(50:55):
Wednesday doesn't mean that it didn't happen.
Speaker 1 (50:58):
I think to Eric, this is Joe Pike the skym Newes.
Speaker 23 (51:03):
This juror says that he quotes flew through the questionnaire.
He doesn't remember answering a question about abuse, but if
he did answer it, he answered it honestly. Certainly, both
sets of lawyers on the prosecution and on the defense side,
recognizes a problem here. The first lawyers to get in
touch with the judge rights them, asking for an inquiry
(51:23):
and a call heering in a month's time was the
government lawyers. But since then, in the last hour or so,
Gilley Maxwell's team have also been in touch with Judge
Nathan saying that the interviews and the fact that Scotty
David was a victim of abuse presents quotes incontroversible grounds
for a new trial. He could potentially be in some
legal trouble if he has misled the court, although I'm
(51:46):
sure he would deny that. Anna. What we could potentially see,
although it is early days, is the judge declaring the
first trial a mistrial and starting again from scratch. That's
something I'm sure that the government that prosecutors here in
the US I would want to avoid. But that is
what gal Maxwell's law is on now, calling for.
Speaker 1 (52:05):
Oh, the potential of a brand new trial, putting the
victims back up again, doing it all over would be
devastating to the state. But the reality is to Wendy Patrick,
California prosecutor, host of Today with Doctor Wendy on KCBQ,
the reality is that what must be shown is not
(52:28):
that a GURR or multiple grs had been molested in
the past, not that, but that that information was either
not requested by the state, that the state had some
type of misconduct, and we see in question number forty
eight the state did ask that question, So we don't
have any prosecutorial misconduct. Did a GURR lie that would
(52:53):
be an issue? And if so, did that lie maybe
are impartial and would it have changed the outcome of
the trial? Otherwise? That is a very state burden. Wendy Patrick, No,
it is.
Speaker 10 (53:13):
And I won't say that I haven't had to try
cases twice due to during this conduct, because I have.
But that doesn't mean that it is a slam dunk,
as the defense is contending. Not only is it a
steep hill to climb, but it also involves something courts
really don't want to do, which is really invading the
purview of jury deliberations. I mean, that's why we have
(53:34):
the jury system. Is there entitled to get together and
talk and share and to go beyond that veil and
then start what polling jurors to see if in fact
this did make them unfair when they heard this. That's
not something a judge is going to do lightly. So
I do think that this judge will they take a
very thoughtful view as to whether or not what's being
raised here actually will cause her to even think about
(53:57):
going down that road.
Speaker 1 (53:58):
And this occurring the potential of a new trial being
ordered for Glaine Maxwell. If there was prosecutorial misconduct, the
whole thing could be over, the commission could be thrown out,
and the case may be barred from retrial. I do
not see any prosecutorial misconduct, but will there have to
be a new trial?
Speaker 18 (54:20):
This appealed by Julaine Maxwell was denied by a court.
The appeals court confirmed and upheld Maxwell's convictions, describing her
sentence as procedurally reasonable. The court wrote the alleged crimes
fell within the statute of limitations and the agreement did
not cover Maxwell. This appeal was in a federal appeals court.
(54:43):
Now it's on to the Supreme Court.
Speaker 1 (54:45):
While Jelaine Maxwell appeals her case all the way to
the US Supreme Court. What happened to the release of
all those documents? Thousands and thousands of pages of Epstein
documents being kept under steal. Now we were told by the
US attorney that they would be released. What's in those documents?
(55:07):
Why are they so secretive? Too hot to handle? Whose
names are in those documents? As Juline Maxwell appeals her
case to the US Supreme Court, we wait as justice unfolds.
Nancy Grace signing off goodbye.
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Four people, four souls lost
in connection with the Jeffrey Epstein sex trafficking case. Virginia Geoffrey,
(00:20):
one of them her body just found. Does it never end?
I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to
thank you for being with us. In the last days,
we learned Epstein's hints person his so called madam. That's
certainly putting perfume on the pig. Elaine Maxwell, the jailed
(00:44):
Epstein accomplice, is appealing her conviction all the way to
the US Supreme Court. It never ends, and yes you're
paying for it. Again. This is Crime Stories. I want
to thank you for being with us on our Friday
night special. Tonight we take a look how can Eulaane
(01:08):
Maxwell fix her mouth to appeal to the US Supreme Court?
And again on our dime. Remember Maxwell actually went. I
visited the scene to play grounds in New York and
many urban areas. The public playgrounds are fenced in chainlink.
(01:32):
They're usually asphalt like you know, basketball court, outdoor basketball court,
and you can pull up in her case in a
limo beside the playground and she would actually spot girls
at recess on the playground such as it is to
(01:53):
lure them, to entrap them into becoming sex slaves for
her love Jeffrey Epstein. And now she's appealing her conviction
all the way to the US Supreme Court. What happened?
What do we know about what was proven against Elaine Maxwell? Now,
(02:18):
to crime online dot COM's Levi Paige Levi, we know
what Epstein did about much of the molestation of young girls.
He committed and got away with it because he was rich.
But what about the women who enabled him? Who is
Elaine Maxwell?
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Jallaine Maxwell. Nancy is a woman who is from the UK.
Her father is very rich and powerful from there, she
inherited a lot of money After his death, she came
to the United States, New York City, and she was
a socialite. She hung out with Ivanka Trump. She met
Jeffrey Epstein, would hang around with him, and it is
(02:58):
alleged she would find underage girls under eighteen tell them that, Hey,
I have a friend. His name is Jeffrey Epstein. He
needs a masseuse, will pay you to come give him
a massage. It wasn't a massage. They were raped. And
she is the woman that allegedly entrapped these young women
(03:21):
in his evil plot.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
Take a listen now to Netflix Filthy Rich.
Speaker 3 (03:28):
How did you meet mister Revski like two years ago
or so?
Speaker 4 (03:33):
About two years ago?
Speaker 5 (03:34):
Yeah, when you first.
Speaker 4 (03:35):
Met him, Yeah, you were seventeen. Then what is it
that you were told you would have to do?
Speaker 1 (03:42):
Give him a massage? Yeah, well that's some massage that
ended up in molesting young girls. To actually Willcott a
judge and trial lawyer, court TV anchor, you're hearing one
Epstein victims speaking to law enforcement. But there were multiple
young girls that have the same story. I mean, how
(04:03):
likely is it that multiple young girls have the same story,
girls that are separated in time and space and don't
know each other.
Speaker 6 (04:11):
Yeah, it's not at all likely. There's so many different
pieces aspects of this that really are bothersome to me,
and I don't understand all of these girls do have
the same story. If you have an adult that's assisting,
that's getting, that's soliciting, that adult should have been charged
with child and endangerment, accessories, soliciting any of those things.
(04:33):
The other thing, though, is he was smart in a criminal,
disgusting way that he would use miners to try to
get other girls.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
Well, apparently, according to reports, he didn't just use miners
to recruit their friends for underage sex. He used an accomplished,
educated woman, Gillan Maxwell. Take a listen to this.
Speaker 4 (04:58):
In two thousand and five, the parent to a young
girl called the police station.
Speaker 7 (05:02):
Well, Hi, how are you.
Speaker 8 (05:03):
I'm good.
Speaker 9 (05:04):
I'm returning to a call.
Speaker 7 (05:05):
I I apologize.
Speaker 10 (05:06):
I don't know exactly what four it's okay.
Speaker 11 (05:08):
It was an incident that occurred maybe like three three
and a half.
Speaker 5 (05:11):
Weeks ago with one of my stepdaughters.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
One day at cool guys would a.
Speaker 7 (05:14):
Fight and she had over three hundred dollars on.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
Her So after asking on asking on, asking.
Speaker 10 (05:19):
Out what was going on, found out that ended.
Speaker 5 (05:22):
Up being that they went upon beach to a gentleman's
house and they start off by giving the sentiment a
massage and he pays them if he likes them, and
he thinks that they're pretty enough to keep some eys.
Speaker 12 (05:31):
To do other things.
Speaker 13 (05:32):
Okay, I was if I said.
Speaker 7 (05:35):
There was an investigation or if you guys had any world, I.
Speaker 3 (05:37):
Think, well, this is the first hearing of it.
Speaker 9 (05:40):
Okay, what I will need is more information. Would your
steptor would be willing to come in to provide me
with the statement.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
This is a two thousand and five recorded conversation with
a police officer where Officer Pagan returns a call to
a grown woman making a complaint two thousand and five
billionaire Jeffrey Epstein recruiting young girls from school. From school,
She says her stepdaughter has this huge wad of money,
(06:10):
and that the stepdaughter finally admits to her she went
to this rich guy's house. Epstein gave him a massage
and then it escalated to other things. The woman who
allegedly made his underage sex that's called statutory rape possible.
A jet setter millionaire in her own right, Gillan Maxwell,
(06:34):
who apparently in the Last Days brags it comes out
quote look for Jeffrey's type and I bring him home.
This is according to Prince Andrew of Britain's cousin tells
how Gillan Maxwell brags that she recruited young underage girls
for Epstein from trailer parks and that she Gillan Maxwell
(07:00):
intent on marrying Jeffrey Epstein. She would go out and
recruit young girls to be statutory raped by a billionaire,
and why in the world would she want to marry
Jeffrey Epstein. Take a listen to Jeffrey Epstein himself on Netflix.
Speaker 4 (07:23):
Have you ever been convicted of a crime?
Speaker 14 (07:26):
Yes?
Speaker 4 (07:27):
What was the crime of which you were convicted? Two counts?
Speaker 15 (07:33):
One soliciting prostitution and procuring a minor for prostitution?
Speaker 4 (07:42):
Did you in fact commit those acts? I'm going to
invokee my fifth Amendment? Right, How many times have you
solicited a miner for prostitution? Same answer? How many times
have you solicited a miner for prostitution in the state
of Florida? The same answer? Have you ever solicited a
miner for prostitution of the Virgin Islands? Same answer? That
(08:04):
is the you are invoting your fifth Amendment? Yes, right, yes,
missus skill. Have you ever solicited for prostitution in New York?
Same answer? Have you ever soled solicited for prostitution in
New Mexico? Same answer? Have you ever solicited for prostitution
in Paris? Same answer? Have you ever solicited a miner
for prostitution anywhere? At any time? I'm going to certainly
(08:27):
Righte's taking you out here. We're going to go through everything.
So you are terminating the deposition. If it is time
for the recess of the deposition.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
As if he had not solicited prostitution with a minor
a child in all of those places in New York, Paris, London,
the Island and the Caribbean, he would have said, no,
I haven't. If someone came up and said, hey, are
you guilty of soliciting prostitution with the miner, and I'm like,
(08:55):
I would say no, absolutely not. Instead he had votes
his right to the Fifth Amendment, your right to remain silent.
This is after already pleading guilty to prostitution with a
miner in Florida, where he got a slap on the wrist.
But the billionaire pedophile Jeffrey Epstein is one issue. Another
(09:19):
can of worms is the socialite millionaire in her own right,
Gillan Maxwell, who got the girls for him to doctor
Bethany Marshall. Did you hear where a cousin of Prince
Andrew We know it now to be? Christina Oxenburg talked
about how Gillen Maxwell bragged that she would procure, as
(09:41):
she said, procure underage girls for Epstein and very often
would focus on trailer parks to find his victims. Did
you hear that? It makes me so mad I wanted
she and Nail in half.
Speaker 16 (09:56):
Okay, Nancy. I thought about the pattern of of child
sex crimes and how they're similar, whether it's Michael Jackson
or we have Harvey Weinstein, or we have Jeffrey Epstein.
So Gilan Maxwell found women who were financially vulnerable. Michael
Jackson found children from poor families. Harvey Weinstein found women
(10:21):
who were wanting a role in a movie script. They
all entice them and offer something big, like for a
thirteen or fourteen year old, two or three hundred dollars
for a massage. I mean that's everything. You could go
buy a purse, you go buy a pair of shoes.
Michael Jackson built like a whole scene park to lore children.
(10:42):
Weinstein offered them these huge movie roles. You can see
the pattern is the same from perpetrator to perpetrator. They
always find victims that are at the fringe of society
and they think won't tell on them. You know, everybody's
surprised that a woman like Gilan Maxwell would procure these
girls and then want to marry Jeffrey Epstein. But it
(11:03):
is not uncommon for women to make crimes against children
in concert with the man they love.
Speaker 6 (11:09):
Look at children who are molested.
Speaker 16 (11:12):
By stepfathers, and the mothers stand by and do nothing,
or they go and they find rape victims for their
husbands or their partners. Women do act in concert with
men all the time. In this case, it's just more
dramatic because there is so much money. I do practice
in Beverly Hills where there's a lot of money, and
(11:33):
with there's a lot of money, there's a lot of
cover ups.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
The woman who made it possible for him to locate
and recruit little girls to rape and molest and pay
off and keep silent. Her name is Glaine Maxwell. Take
a listen now to Jeffrey Epstein speaking on the Netflix
(11:56):
special Filthy Rich emphasis on.
Speaker 17 (12:00):
Let's talk about Jingo one and two. Virginia Roberts. Do
you know Virginia Roberts? So she's again.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
Who Virginia Roberts?
Speaker 4 (12:14):
Can you spell it.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
Common spelling Virginia.
Speaker 4 (12:19):
Like the states? Can you spell it? Will you please? Roberts?
How's what's the last name?
Speaker 17 (12:23):
How's the spelling.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
R O B E R T S.
Speaker 4 (12:28):
I believe isn't it true that you.
Speaker 17 (12:31):
And Glenn Maxwell celebrated her sixteenth birthday with her and
had sex with her on that.
Speaker 15 (12:38):
Day farm compound, confusing an argument in the passing.
Speaker 17 (12:45):
I'd like to answer that question, but today I'm gonna
have to assert my sixth Amendment rights, my fifth Amendment rights.
Is it true that you forced Virginia Roberts to have
sex with numerous friends of yours?
Speaker 18 (13:00):
An a hole?
Speaker 1 (13:03):
Can you spell Virginia?
Speaker 8 (13:07):
No?
Speaker 1 (13:07):
Spell it? No spell it, he says to opposing counsel,
and the last name Roberts. Spell it? What a jackass? Well,
he invoked the wrong amendment. He's sixth, but he meant fifth.
He corrected himself. But he's making co counsel opposing counsel
(13:29):
spell the name of one of his alleged victims. I
want you to listen to what this girl, Virginia Roberts says. Listen.
Speaker 11 (13:39):
I first met Prince Andrew March tenth, two thousand and
one in London at Gillan's townhouse.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
He knocked on the door.
Speaker 11 (13:50):
He came inside Gilen's townhouse, and we're sitting there having tea.
Ellen has his favorite guessing game that she does. She
goes Prince Andrew, how well do you think Virginia's and
he said seventeen and She's like, oh, you're right, and
you know they made a little joke about it. It's like, oh,
my daughters aren't far from your age.
Speaker 8 (14:12):
You know.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
My daughter's a little bit younger than you.
Speaker 11 (14:16):
We went out for the night club Tramp in London
and he dances and he's profusely sweating over.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
Me and it was disgusting. She's talking about Prince Andrew
hooked up with Prince Andrew, who she says had sex
with her here she is a minor. Andrew denies it
Sweats Buckets on TV, but then says she had to
be lying about their encounter. I call it child rape
because at that time he had an ailment where he
(14:47):
couldn't sweat. That was actually his defense. I want to
go to you to Ashley Willcott, judge and trial lawyer,
court TV anchor Ashley, when you hear statement that is
so rich in detail, it gives credence to it. And
the fact that she says Gillan Maxwell introduces her to
(15:08):
Prince Andrew at this location. Then they go to club
Tramp where he came on to her. Andrew sweated profusely
and there turns up to me. Although Andrew denies knowing
her a picture of her with Andrew with his arm
around her after Andrew says I've never met her. The
(15:30):
details that she described Ashley, that Prince Andrew said, hey,
you're about the age of my two daughters. That detail
to me has the ring of truth absolutely.
Speaker 6 (15:43):
So, first of all, I always believe a juvenile a child.
This is a child, absolutely. Second of all, you're right
all of those specific details. When people lie that don't
make up all of those little specific details, how are
they going to come up with something to say? Oh,
swating profusely?
Speaker 1 (16:01):
Long story short. According to the source Oxenburgh, Gillen Maxwell
brags to Prince Andrew's cousin she recruited girls from trailer
parks in Palm Beach to bring them to Jeffrey Epstein.
Oxenburgh says Maxwell told her I look for what I
know is Epstein's type, and I bring them home. That
(16:26):
she Gillan Maxwell was quote proud to be a recruiter
for the pedophile during a meeting with Oxenburgh, who was
an author and a socialite who was brought in, I
guess to write Gillen Maxwell's memoir. Oxenburgh claims that Maxwell
(16:46):
was not dating Epstein, although she wanted to marry Epstein.
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace in the Last Days Epstein
accomplice Julianne Maxwell appeals her conviction all the way to
(17:08):
the US Supreme Court. What do we know about the
evidence against Maxwell?
Speaker 14 (17:16):
Operation GGO Get Gilaine Out was started by family friend
Brian Bastram. He claims that Maxwell's human rights are being violated,
that she is forced to wear paper clothing with no
broad due to the risk of suicide. He also claims
that since her incarceration, Maxwell a vegan, has dropped twenty
five pounds due to improper diet. Bashram claims that when
(17:37):
Maxwell complained about losing so much weight, prison officials removed
her skills to stop her from weighing herself. He says
that prison guards have stopped talking to Maxwell while she
spends her days isolated in a nine foot by seven
foot cell. Bashram says that isolation is being extended to
her mail as well. He claims that family letters are
being vindictively not given to her. Brian Bashram says he
(17:59):
finds it appalling that Maxwell was still in custody when
other sex offenders like Harvey Weinstein and Bill Cosby were
granted bail. Maxwell has denied all six counts relating to
child sex trafficking, procurement, and perjury.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
Here you're hearing our friend Dave Matt from Crime online
dot Com maybe has something to do with Weinstein's victims
being adult as opposed to Epstein and Gillen Maxwell's alleged
victims being children at the time they were sex trafficked. Again,
I'm Nancy Gray, so I want to thank you for
being with us this as Operation g G Get gill
(18:34):
and Maxwell out of jail is underway? Will it happen?
Joining me an all star panel to break you down
and put it back together again. First of all, high
profile lawyer out of Seattle joining me. Trial lawyer Ann Bremner,
former prosecutor, also with me and renow to New York
psychologists joining me from Manhattan. Karen Start at Karenstark dot com.
(18:56):
That's Karen with a c former special agent with the FBI,
screen writer on Criminal Minds, Bobby Chacone. Also with me.
Melissa Cron, an investigative journalist and author. Melissa is so
great to have you with us. Melissa also the author
of a brand new book about Epstein. And an upcoming
(19:17):
Epstein book called Epstein Inc. Melissa cronin what do you
make of the news that there is a movement underfoot
to have Gillen Maxwell sprung from jail?
Speaker 7 (19:28):
So this man, Brian Bosham said that he finds it
appalling how she's being treated in prison, and anyone who
knows anything about this case finds it appalling that someone
would think there was any chance this woman should be released.
It's just another example of how delusional she is.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
I mean, Epstein himself was not released on bond with
all of the claims made against him. She's part and
parcel of all those claims. I think part of it
has to do with that sweetheart deal he got down
in PAULM Beach when he basically had house arrest for
part of the day and could go in and out
of the jail at his will. There was a parade
(20:07):
of young girls going in and out of his office
when he was on day passes from the jail. So
I'm sure that they're concerned Gilan Maxwell will either take
off or end up dead if she is released. What
do you make of her claims that she is being
let me just say, single out for bad treatment.
Speaker 7 (20:30):
Like I said before, I think she's totally delusional because
she just has to realize that she might have gotten
away with it for years so far, but now the
hand of justice has come down on her and she's
not getting away with it. She's not going to get
special treatment, she's not going to get her contour and
her vegan diet. She just has to wake up to
the reality that her time has come and she's going
(20:52):
to have to pay for what she did.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
What do you who is Brian Basham. I only know
that he has a family friend of Gilan Maxwell, who
is the one reporting from behind jailhouse walls that she
has lost so much weight that her skills were taken away.
I've got news for everybody. I don't think inmates have
scales and their jail cell. That's a load of bs.
(21:14):
That's the technical legal term. But I don't think that
you and Bremner. You're the high profile lawyer out of Seattle.
I have never once in all the jails I've ever
been in, seen an inmate with a set of scales.
Speaker 8 (21:28):
Great mind sinkle like Nancio. That's the first thing I thought.
It was, like, I've never heard of an inmate having
scales in their cell and having them taken away because
they're losing weight. I mean, that just does not ring true.
And if it's true, it's the first.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
What a big fat lie. Now isn't it true? In
Bremner a former prosecutor but now civil and defense lawyer,
isn't it true? And that had the close of every
felony case, the jury is instructed by the judge that
(22:01):
when a person, a witness, be it a defendant, a cop,
doesn't matter, is caught line under oath, even if it's
about something small. The jury will then have the decision
the opportunity if they wish to discount all that witness's
testimony in toto in total, if that witness is caught line.
(22:24):
Would you agree or disagree that that is the state
of the law.
Speaker 8 (22:26):
I agree completely. It's the false in one, false in all.
It's the Latin term I think is falsest in union,
falsest in pluran.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
Well, you're up in the game, thrown you Latin phrase it?
If that me? So, let me break it down. If
this is being reported by the so called family friend
that her scale has been taken out of her jail cell,
there is no way in hubl an inmate and a
high security CI Correctional institute is going to have a scale.
(22:55):
It'll take about a New York minute for one of
those inmates to pick that up and back a warden,
a trustee or another inmate right in the skull and
kill them right there with the scales. Okay, So that's BS.
And if he's lying about that, or someone is lying
about that, then why should I believe any of this? BS?
Speaker 10 (23:17):
No, I completely agree.
Speaker 8 (23:18):
I'm not going to use the Latin again. But you
can't believe anything they say. I mean, that is so preposterous.
I mean, and she can't wear a bra, but she
can have a scale. You know, I don't get it.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
So we're all s you know here, because Bobby, you count.
I knew that wouldn't take long ago ahead, Bobby.
Speaker 12 (23:32):
I mean, it's so called I mean this so called friends,
family friend that he's being described. I mean, I think
he's also been described as a PR professional. So I
think that he might be one of these crisis management
guys that's brought in to start this campaign. And they're
tolding it a campaign as it's a grassroots movement of
people that want her out. When in all probability she
(23:55):
is paying for this service. She's paying probably for this
family friend here professional to kind of start this whole movement,
if you will. And I don't think there's a whole
bunch of people behind this movement.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
She is saying that she is being singled out because
of vindictive treatment is being heaped upon her. Back to
Melissa Crownin, an investigative journalists who has already written one book,
Jeffrey Epstein Dead Man Tale, No Tales, and she has
an upcoming book, Epstein Inc. Coming out I believe in November, Melissa,
what is at the crux of the movement to get
(24:30):
this alleged child sex trafficker out from behind bars?
Speaker 7 (24:33):
Naty, It's very important for everyone to understand that, as
he said, this is not a family friend. This is
a PR professional that has been working for Delaine for
more than ten years. He was actually brought in as
a third party on the Jufrey versus Maxwell lawsuits years
ago because the attorney's found emails between Delaine and the
(24:57):
PR company on which he was c seed. Now the
PR company is called Acuity Reputation and they have offices
in London also in Moscow. The founder is on the
advisory board of the Moscow International Finance Committee. So that's
a whole other thread that people might want to pull
on in the coming week. But I think it's just
(25:17):
a distraction technique. The fact is that day after day,
week after weeks, more victims come forward to tell their stories,
and she's not going to be able to achieve justice
this time.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
Guys, take a listen to our friend Mela Linghi at
CBS News. Listen. She had his money, he had her contacts.
They made a great group that way. But Glynn was
much more snivy and smart than Epstein ever was.
Speaker 5 (25:44):
At one point during the deposition, Giuffray's attorney, Sigrid McCauley,
appeared to ask Maxwell about the now infamous picture of
Giuffrey and the UK's Prince Andrew. Geffray says she had
sex with the Prince at Maxwell's London home that night.
The Prince has repeatly denied guphrase allegations, and Maxwell called
Giphra's account of the incident an obvious lie. In the deposition,
(26:07):
Maxwell said Guphrey characterized things took place in my bathroom.
In the bathtub itself, the tub is too small for
any type of activity whatsoever.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
Okay, let me understand this. She is claiming that Virginia
Robert's statements are false because her Gillen Maxwell's tub is
not big enough to have sex in. Really, because I'm
pretty sure if people can have sex in the bathroom
on a plane, they can do it in a bathtub.
(26:38):
I don't care how big the bathtub or how small
the bathtub is. I mean, I'm not an engineer from
Georgia Tech or MIT, but I can figure that much out.
You know, it's very interesting. Bobby Chaconne is joining me,
former special agent FBI screenwriter Criminal minds. What my longtime
friend Ricky Kleman over at CBS is saying. Maxwell can't
(27:01):
just say Virginia Jeffries is lying. Lie, she's lying. You
got to come up with more than that and the
size of your bathtub because there are multiple young girls,
not just Virginia Jeffries. That's saying the same thing. Maxwell
recruited them sometimes from near the playground at the middle
school to give Epstein massages, which turned sexual. It's more
(27:26):
than just Virginia Jeffries.
Speaker 12 (27:28):
Bobby Chickne, that's right, Nancy, And actually I did the
tend Georgia Tech. So I am one of those people
you referred to. But you know you're right. When they
can't attack you know, the basic facts of the case.
When you have so many victims coming forth telling very
similar stories about the recruitment and about the behavior that
they were subjected to, you have to start nit picking
(27:48):
at different things. That's why they want the names of
the victims now published so they can harass them. This
is a very astile, very aggressive defense team that Maxwell had.
You can see it as far about is this deposition
that she gave, how hostile she is, and you can
see through their motions now how hostile they're being towards
the victim.
Speaker 13 (28:07):
They have to go after the victims.
Speaker 12 (28:08):
Because it's the only thing they have because they can't
attack the facts.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
But it's still going to be a very difficult task.
Maybe one victim can be impeached, but when you've got
multiple victims separated in time and space, all saying the
same thing, it's going to be much more difficult to
discredit them. Although it happened in the Michael Jackson case
and Bremner, all the boy victims were all discredited and
(28:36):
they were generally saying the same thing, Am Bremner.
Speaker 8 (28:39):
That's exactly what happened. Nancy and I saw it front
row seat, and that trial. You and I covered that
every day, and that's exactly what happened. There were multiple
victims they said the same thing. There was definitely a pattern,
and it came in with I don't remember how many
boys now, but quite a few, and they were not believed.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
Apparently, guys. Will all the victims be attack to trial?
Will there be a trial, because right now Gilan Maxwell's
supporters are starting a movement to get Gilan Maxwell out
of jail, the Goo movement. If she gets out to you,
Melissa cron An investigative journalist, Gilan Maxwell has three passports
(29:20):
that I know of. She I think has remarried. All
that's being kept under wraps. She has money, power and
privilege at her fingertips and is more than capable of
getting a private plane out of here and never coming back.
Speaker 12 (29:40):
It's true.
Speaker 7 (29:41):
She's not just capable of finding a private plane, she's
capable of flying it herself. She was actually a helicopter
pilot for Jeffrey Epstein and buried the victims back and
forth from the island. But it's true She is one
of the biggest light risks that I've ever seen or
heard of in my entire journalistic career because she doesn't
have money and connections herself, her entire family does. She
(30:03):
has seven living siblings, and two of them, her sisters.
Speaker 12 (30:07):
Isabelle and Christine.
Speaker 7 (30:08):
Were actually one of the early founders of the one
of the first search engines, so they have times of money.
They're millionaires in themselves. She has the French passport, she
was born in France, and basically the options are endless
for her, and she actually gets out of prison. So
I think everyone involved in this case knows that that
can't happen.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
Crime stories with Nancy Grace Julane Maxwell May she wrought
in hell. Already four people connected to the Epstein case
have committed to suicide, thanks Maxwell, and now she's on
her way for her lawyers to argue to the US
Supreme Court. It never ends. The pamp for billionaire Jeffrey
(31:00):
Say literally trolling the school yard to cut little girls
and bring them in for Epstein to molest. All done
and said, right, case closed, guilty, Not so fast. Take
a listen to our friend Tom Winter.
Speaker 15 (31:19):
In may Sty tonight in a trial that's centered on
sexual abuse. Two jurors revealed they too have experienced abuse
their own personal experiences, now pushing Golane Maxwell's attorneys to
ask for a new case at issue. Legal experts say
whether or not the two were adequately forthcoming about their
experiences before trial. A man identifying himself as Scotti David
(31:42):
was one of the jurors. He spoke to several media outlets,
including The Daily Mail dot com.
Speaker 4 (31:47):
I don't want to call her a monster.
Speaker 15 (31:50):
A predator is the right word, David, known as Juror
Number fifty, says. Other jurors voiced out about some of
the accusers.
Speaker 19 (31:57):
Some people were like, how can they keep going back?
Speaker 12 (32:00):
Why would their moms allow them to do that?
Speaker 19 (32:02):
And I was like, we can't judge them based on
what they did or didn't do.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
They they're fourteen.
Speaker 12 (32:09):
They don't really have the wherewithal to know really what's
right and wrong.
Speaker 15 (32:13):
A second juror who requested anonymity, told The New York
Times they were sexually abused as a child, and that
they had also discussed the experience during deliberations.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
Is the Glaine Maxwell guilty verdict doomed? I say no
for legal reasons, will there have to be a new
trial with me? Doctor Teresa gil professors psychology, has spent
years working with child abste and trauma victims. Joseph Scott Morgan,
Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My
(32:46):
Fate on Amazon and host of Bodybags with Joe Scott
Morgan on iHeart. Special guest joining us Charlie Langston, editor
at Daily Mail with Female and When Yuhright, California prosecutor,
author Red Flags at Wendypatrick PhD dot com and host
of Today with Doctor Wendy on kc b Q. First
(33:08):
of you, Charlie Langston, before I get into the legalities
of whether this requires a whole new trial for Gelaine Maxwell,
who no doubt did it over and over and over,
even molesting some of the little girls herself, tell me
what's happening this? Does you know? Charlie? I find this
(33:31):
really hard to believe because I never tried a case
ever without asking the entire panel. Do any of you
know anyone, even if it's yourself, a neighbor, a family member,
that have been a victim of a crime. Have any
of you been a victim of a crime, and the
(33:56):
converse to that is, do you know anybody that's been convicted?
Anybody can't hand have you been convicted? So I find
it really hard to believe that these high profile lawyers
and veteran prosecutors did not ask that question.
Speaker 13 (34:11):
Well, I think it's worth pointing out that we don't
actually know for sure right now that that question was
not asked. What we do know is that Juras have
said that they were not asked specifically whether they were
victims of sexual abuse. So the question is whether they
(34:33):
interpreted the question of have you ever committed a crime?
Have you ever been the victim of a crime. It
may be that they did not interpret that question correctly
and did not feel that their experiences with sexual abuse
were the correct answer to that. So, you know, if
they were the victims of sexual abuse and their abuses
(34:53):
were never convicted, they may not have felt that it
was a crime that was committed. If that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (34:59):
Yes, I see what you're saying. They could have been
molested or abused and not realized that that was a
crime if it were never prosecuted. I think long story short,
do you know that song? Winnie Patrick, California prosecutor. I
feel a bad moon coming. I feel about rising. I
(35:21):
feel a bad moon rising. You know there's trouble on
the way. Charlie Langston with US dailymail dot com. How
many jurors do we think we have right now that
are coming out?
Speaker 13 (35:35):
We believe that there are at least three. However, there
is a fourth durer whose sources tell us is also
under question and may have also been the victim of
sexual abuse. So as we heard the first DURA who
said that they were the victim of sexual abuse with
Scotti David, he spoke to us about his experiences, a
(35:56):
second jura, who is remaining anonymous, has spoken to The
New York Times, and we reported over the weekend that
a third DURA has been found by Gie Lane's legal
team to have experienced sexual abuse. And the really big
issue here is that both Scottie David and the second
anonymous duror have admitted that they spoke about their own
(36:19):
experiences with sexual abuse during deliberations, and both of those
jurors have said that they believed that their stories helped
to influence the way that the other jurors went about
their deliberations.
Speaker 1 (36:32):
Here's one hold on just a moment I want you
to hear durre Our Scottie David speaking to dailymail dot
com rakat c. You decided to share your story.
Speaker 4 (36:44):
That's something that has used to yes too. In the questionnaire,
something that you people are aware of when you were
selected as a juror.
Speaker 19 (36:52):
No, they don't ask your sexual abuse history. They didn't
ask him in the questionnaire.
Speaker 7 (36:57):
I thought in the questionaire there was a question that
asked you were a victim or if you were a friend.
Speaker 4 (37:01):
Or that's a victim, appreciate It was some forty eight.
Speaker 9 (37:10):
I don't remember.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
Somebody said you the questionaire today and there was a question.
Speaker 4 (37:15):
Interesting.
Speaker 13 (37:17):
I mean, I guess when did you fail them that question?
Speaker 19 (37:20):
I definitely on the first day of jury selection. I
would have definitely marked yes. But I honestly don't remember
that question.
Speaker 1 (37:28):
You're not the sun. No. No, I mean, I know
my face is rights. I can fill the blood, but
I honestly.
Speaker 19 (37:34):
That's why I answered it that way. I don't remember
it being there, but I did answer. I definitely remember
a family or relative or something, but being sexually abused.
Speaker 4 (37:44):
I was honest on all my questions.
Speaker 1 (37:47):
Okay, So he sounds a little unclear on what he remembers. Okay,
back to you, Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor. Jurors always talk
about their own experienperiences in jer our deliberation, in jury deliberations.
That's not uncommon. We expect that to happen. So tell
me what you see as the big issue here, Wendy Patrick.
Speaker 10 (38:10):
I think the big issue is how these jurors were
interpreting sexual abuse. You know. I know that if we
don't break down that term as we often do in deliberations,
if it's actually part of what's charged, if we simply
ask them in dear and let it hang out there,
I can tell you many jurors think it means forced
inner course. They don't think about it as being touching, masturbation,
(38:32):
some of the you hate to say, lesser forms of abuse,
But we have to put them on a spectrum somewhere,
because if jurors are honestly envisioning the rape scenarios, when
they hear a word like sexual abuse, that kind of
a term, they're not going to disclose some other types
of abuse until they get in a deliberation room. So
this may be legally significant because it wouldn't necessarily indicate
(38:55):
dishonesty during the wadear process.
Speaker 1 (38:57):
Okay, what I'm trying to get at is is there
going to be a brand new trial for Madam Herve
Gilaine Maxwell, or will the state take a cheap plea
rather than retry the case if it rises to that? Now,
the fact that jurors during jury liberations talk about their
(39:21):
own personal experiences, there's nothing wrong with that. That always happens.
You expect that to happen. You want people to draw
on their past experiences as they reach a verdict. That's
not going to be a problem. I want you to
listen to our cut be our friends at CBS News.
Speaker 3 (39:39):
Before the trial, potential jurors were asked to fill out
this questionnaire, including this question have you ever been the
victim of sexual assault? One juror, using only his first
and middle names, Scottie David fulled Reuters he can't remember
if he disclosed his own claims of sex abuse, saying
he flew through the initial questionnaire.
Speaker 4 (39:58):
He's old.
Speaker 3 (39:59):
Routers would have answered the.
Speaker 20 (40:00):
Questions honestly, prosecutors told the judge overseeing the trial. The
statement's merit attention by the court. Maxwell's lawyers then told
the judge she can and should order a new trial.
A separateurer told The New York Times they spoke of
their own sexual abuse during deliberations, which the paper says
appeared to help shape the jury's discussions.
Speaker 1 (40:21):
This woman, according to a jury, according to multiple child victims,
went out even on school playgrounds, trolling for little girls
around fourteen that we know of, to bring back to
her boyfriend, Jeffrey Epstein, the billionaire that hangs out with
Clinton and Trump and all sorts of millionaires and very
(40:43):
wealthy influential people for him to molest over and over
and over until they aged out, and he wanted somebody
even younger. Yes, this is her. She just gets convicted
finally after a massive federal trial. And now only now
do the jurors decide they're gonna come forward and say, oh, yeah,
(41:05):
I was molested. Well, what about that GURR questionnaire? Do
anybody hear what I just heard? The question number forty
eight specifically asked have you ever been the victim of
sex assault? According to CBS News, now here's the reality
when you're talking about a jury trial. Back to you,
(41:29):
Wendy Patrick, A lot of people may have been a
crime victim. But the issue is can you listen to
the facts in evidence brought in at trial, not what
you may have read the paper, and render a verdict
that speaks the truth. That's the question. Doesn't matter if
you've been a victim not a victim, if you're black,
(41:49):
if you're white, if you're a man, if you're a woman,
if you're a Christian, if you're an atheist, it doesn't matter.
It's can you render a verdict that speaks the truth? Yes,
Wendy Patrick, Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 10 (42:02):
The answer is yes. And so the jurors that are
talking out afterwards are basically saying what they said influence
the other jurors ability to be fair and try the
case on the facts they heard from the witness stand.
Speaker 1 (42:14):
No, no, no, that's not what they said. They said it,
Charlie Langston. Aren't they saying that them recounting their experiences
a stake to the jury deliberations, not that it made
them unfair or im or partial.
Speaker 13 (42:33):
They didn't say that it made them unfair. What they said,
I mean, what the second juris said specifically was that
their experiences of sexual assault had helped to shape the
jury's discussions. So effectively, What the two jurors who have
spoken out have said is that in them sharing their
recollections of sexual abuse, it made the other jurors understand
(42:55):
more how victims of sexual abuse may continue to recall
their experiences, and I think in doing so, the jury
was maybe able to realize a little bit more clearly
just how well the trauma of abuse sticks with you
throughout the years. So Maxwell's legal team one of their
big arguments was to try and say that these women
(43:17):
were coming forward because they wanted money, that they couldn't
really remember what had gone on, And these jurors who
spoke of their own experiences of sexual abuse were effectively
helping the other jurors to realize that, no, these recollections
do really stick with you, and you know, you are
still able to recall a lot of details in very
kind of specific ways. However, other, you know, facts might
(43:41):
be a little bit more blurry as time goes on.
Speaker 21 (43:44):
That wash wait wait wait, wait wait, Okay, this happens
when you're crime vactim. I will never forget for years
and years and years, even when I was a prosecutor,
I would not reveal did.
Speaker 1 (43:56):
Not they want to talk about it. To other people
that my fiance I've been murdered just before our wedding.
And that changed the course of my life and my career,
and that's why I became a prosecutor. It was nobody's business.
I didn't want to talk about it, but I remember
it very well. And then I finally am publicly telling
my story at request of Larry King. And do you
(44:19):
know he asked me, when did this happen? And I
said August sixth, and I screwed up the year. I
don't remember what year, I said, but I screwed up
the year Keith was murdered. Why did I do that?
I don't know. Now. I remember so many things vividly.
And then of course I was attacked like crazy about
(44:42):
just everything because I screwed up the year on national TV.
Now one thing, correct me if I'm wrong, and then
everybody jump in. Charlie, this guy, Scottie David explained to
the jurors some aspects of his abuse had been easier
to recall than other quote. I remember the color of
the carpet, the walls. Some of it can be replayed
(45:04):
like a video. I do that too, but I can't
remember all the details. There are some things that run together.
And in his talking to the jury, according to him Charlie,
he says that the jurors were going, Wow, well, why
didn't the parents let this happen? Didn't they notice their
children weren't home at the right time? And because of
(45:25):
what he had gone through, he told the jurors women,
you can't judge the victims like that are their parents.
They're just fourteen years old, for Pete's sake. So do
I have that right, Charlie Lanx.
Speaker 13 (45:36):
Yes. Effectively, he was helping the jury to understand, as
a victim himself, why some of these women might be
able to recall certain details, as you said, in a
very specific way, but not be able to remember other things,
as you said, like dates or times, or you know,
even the location of where the abuse happened, because that,
(45:57):
you know. I'm not, unfortunately an expert, but that's the
way human brain works. When you go through an incredibly
traumatic experience, sometimes you do try and block out the
more painful aspect.
Speaker 1 (46:09):
Okay, I heard everybody jump in. I heard I know,
I Jo gott Morgan, yeah, j hit me.
Speaker 22 (46:16):
Yeah, listen, I got to tell you, you know, I'm
hearing the words molestation and sexual abuse being thrown around
a lot. I got to remind everybody here that she
was not charged or accused of those things. Officially from
a legal perspective, She's charged with enticement of a minor,
transportation of a minor, sex, trafficking of a minor, and
(46:38):
three counts of conspiracy. So you know, if abuse or
molestation is an element of that crime, which you know,
for those that don't understand elements, it's a it's a
building block of the crime. Maybe that's the case. But
you know, to to the other point here where these
you know, during this this questionnaire where they actually asked, well,
(46:59):
do you have any experience with trafficking? Do you have
any experience with enticement? Do you have any experience with
the transportation of a minor? You know, you know, to
for tat, you know, is that the case because right
now all I'm hearing is molestation and abuse and she
wasn't charged with us things.
Speaker 1 (47:15):
Next to doctor Troy sa Gill joining as professor's psychology
and author way in doctor Well.
Speaker 9 (47:21):
In terms of memory, we know that the hippocampus is
important for memory formation and recall. However, people understress such
as children who are experiencing abuse. The body goes into
fight flight. Adrenaline and cortisol are released, and all of
a sudden, the hippocampus is switched off and it goes
(47:43):
into the abigdala and the amygdala is not good for memory, recall, formation,
or retrieval. And that's why a lot of the people
who were on trial and his victims don't have really
clear memories. And that's why they can do what you did,
(48:04):
particularly if they're understress during the trial. They go back
to the amiddaler and they can remember feeling and body memories,
but they can't remember particular facts. And that's actually what
Elizabeth Lostis was bringing out in the trial was why
there is false memories. And that's what the juror said
(48:27):
that he tried to clarify to the jury when they're
in deliberations, because many of them said that they were confused.
Why in twenty eighteen, nineteen, and twenty they gave one story.
The victims gave one story to the federal government, and
now they're giving another story.
Speaker 1 (48:47):
I don't think that the victims gave different stories. I
think that under the appropriate questioning, more facts came out.
On the stand, because when you ask somebody, okay, what
happened and then they tell you, well, then you may
want to ask, well, do you remember what time of
(49:08):
year it was, do you remember what the part was wearing?
Do you remember what you were wearing? Do you remember
who let you into the home? Do you remember if
there were any maids there, anybody else at Epstein's home.
There are a million questions that you can ask where
the victim would add to the story, not necessarily change
the story.
Speaker 2 (49:26):
Charlie, No, and I.
Speaker 13 (49:27):
Don't think I mean, you know, from my experience of
kind of reading through everything that went on with the trial,
I don't think that any of the victims were particularly
doubtful in any of their you know, kind of testimonies.
I think that all of the victims spoke very clearly
about what they had been through and Delane's part in that, which,
(49:50):
you know, as we've pointed out, we aren't kind of
looking here at a charge for sexual abuse at the
hands of Glane. What we are looking for is kind
of does of trafficking and enticement, and every single one
of the victims was able to give very clear testimony
about the part that Gilaine played in, you know, kind
(50:11):
of Epstein's trafficking ring effectively. So when it comes to
a jura like Scotti, David explaining to his other juras,
you know what it is like to be the victim
of sexual abuse, and what it is like to kind
of try and recall those memories. I don't think that
he in any way kind of made duras completely change
(50:33):
their minds about witness testimonies. I think what he was
trying to do was offer what some of the victims
weren't able to say, which is sometimes my memory is
a little bit blurry. Sometimes I can't recall certain facts.
But what I can recall and what I know to
be true, is what I went through. Just because I
can't remember whether it happened on a Tuesday or a
(50:55):
Wednesday doesn't mean that it didn't happen.
Speaker 1 (50:58):
I think to Eric, this is Joe Pike the skym Newes.
Speaker 23 (51:03):
This juror says that he quotes flew through the questionnaire.
He doesn't remember answering a question about abuse, but if
he did answer it, he answered it honestly. Certainly, both
sets of lawyers on the prosecution and on the defense side,
recognizes a problem here. The first lawyers to get in
touch with the judge rights them, asking for an inquiry
(51:23):
and a call heering in a month's time was the
government lawyers. But since then, in the last hour or so,
Gilley Maxwell's team have also been in touch with Judge
Nathan saying that the interviews and the fact that Scotty
David was a victim of abuse presents quotes incontroversible grounds
for a new trial. He could potentially be in some
legal trouble if he has misled the court, although I'm
(51:46):
sure he would deny that. Anna. What we could potentially see,
although it is early days, is the judge declaring the
first trial a mistrial and starting again from scratch. That's
something I'm sure that the government that prosecutors here in
the US I would want to avoid. But that is
what gal Maxwell's law is on now, calling for.
Speaker 1 (52:05):
Oh, the potential of a brand new trial, putting the
victims back up again, doing it all over would be
devastating to the state. But the reality is to Wendy Patrick,
California prosecutor, host of Today with Doctor Wendy on KCBQ,
the reality is that what must be shown is not
(52:28):
that a GURR or multiple grs had been molested in
the past, not that, but that that information was either
not requested by the state, that the state had some
type of misconduct, and we see in question number forty
eight the state did ask that question, So we don't
have any prosecutorial misconduct. Did a GURR lie that would
(52:53):
be an issue? And if so, did that lie maybe
are impartial and would it have changed the outcome of
the trial? Otherwise? That is a very state burden. Wendy Patrick, No,
it is.
Speaker 10 (53:13):
And I won't say that I haven't had to try
cases twice due to during this conduct, because I have.
But that doesn't mean that it is a slam dunk,
as the defense is contending. Not only is it a
steep hill to climb, but it also involves something courts
really don't want to do, which is really invading the
purview of jury deliberations. I mean, that's why we have
(53:34):
the jury system. Is there entitled to get together and
talk and share and to go beyond that veil and
then start what polling jurors to see if in fact
this did make them unfair when they heard this. That's
not something a judge is going to do lightly. So
I do think that this judge will they take a
very thoughtful view as to whether or not what's being
raised here actually will cause her to even think about
(53:57):
going down that road.
Speaker 1 (53:58):
And this occurring the potential of a new trial being
ordered for Glaine Maxwell. If there was prosecutorial misconduct, the
whole thing could be over, the commission could be thrown out,
and the case may be barred from retrial. I do
not see any prosecutorial misconduct, but will there have to
be a new trial?
Speaker 18 (54:20):
This appealed by Julaine Maxwell was denied by a court.
The appeals court confirmed and upheld Maxwell's convictions, describing her
sentence as procedurally reasonable. The court wrote the alleged crimes
fell within the statute of limitations and the agreement did
not cover Maxwell. This appeal was in a federal appeals court.
(54:43):
Now it's on to the Supreme Court.
Speaker 1 (54:45):
While Jelaine Maxwell appeals her case all the way to
the US Supreme Court. What happened to the release of
all those documents? Thousands and thousands of pages of Epstein
documents being kept under steal. Now we were told by the
US attorney that they would be released. What's in those documents?
(55:07):
Why are they so secretive? Too hot to handle? Whose
names are in those documents? As Juline Maxwell appeals her
case to the US Supreme Court, we wait as justice unfolds.
Nancy Grace signing off goodbye.
Host
Nancy Grace
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