August 22, 2025 • 42 mins
The jury took two minutes from entering the courtroom to announce the verdict: Richard Allen, guilty on all charges.
Allen was convicted of felony murder for Abby Williams and Libby German, as well as for knowingly and intentionally killing both girls. Judge Gull maintained order in the courtroom, where there were no outbursts, but outside on the streets of Delphi, shouts of "Guilty on all charges" echoed.
The jury, composed of seven women and five men, heard 17 days of testimony, including dozens of witnesses, disturbing jailhouse videos of Richard Allen, and photos of Abby and Libby as they were found at the crime scene.
They deliberated for 19 hours over parts of four days to reach a unanimous verdict. Richard Allen was found guilty of four counts: two counts of felony murder and two counts of knowingly and intentionally killing Abby Williams and Libby German.
Delphi residents tell reporters that they are still in shock after learning that local pharmacy tech Richard Allen has been charged in the 2017 murder of teens Liberty German and Abigail Williams.
Photos of Allen in a local bar with the police sketch of the murder suspect posted on the wall behind him have surfaced.
We have also learned that while at work, Allen developed photos of the girls, to be used at their funeral, for the families at no charge.
Police say Allen came forward as a witness in the early days of the investigation, but nothing at that time linked him to the crime. Now a new book details admissions Allen made to his mother.
Joining Nancy Grace Today:
- David Yoder - Richard Allen's former neighbor
- Fran Longwell - Former Deputy State’s Attorney (Calvert County, MD), Former Assistant State’s Attorney (Prince George’s County, MD) specializing in child abuse, sex offenses and homicides
- Caryn Stark - NYC Psychologist; Twitter: @carynpsych, Facebook: "Caryn Stark"
- Sheryl McCollum - Forensic Expert, Founder: Cold Case Investigative Research Institute in Atlanta, GA.; @ColdCaseTips
- Dr. Todd M. Barr - Board-Certified Anatomic/Clinical/Forensic Pathologist (Ohio), Featured in "Thin Places: Essays From In Between" by Jordan Kisner; Twitter: @ToddBarrME
- Max Lewis - Reporter, FOX59 (Indianapolis); Twitter/Instagram: @MaxLewisTV, Facebook.com/MaxLewisTV
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Good evening. I'm Nancy Grace
and it's Friday night. You know what that means. I've
got a Friday Night special for you. Delphi killer Richard Allen.
The evidence just keeps piling up. We're learning things now.
(00:23):
We didn't hear it trial. Now what will all the
haters say, all the trolls online that said the jury
got it wrong, the judge was wrong, the prosecutors were wrong.
The victims' families, Oh, they were wrong. Susan Hendrix, who
covered the case, she was wrong. I'm wrong. Everybody's wrong,
(00:45):
and Richard Allen is right. Not so quick tonight, we're
learning about chilling comments Richard Allen made after Liberty and
were killed, murdered, and before he was arrested to an individual,
(01:09):
a witness that you would think would do anything to
cover for Richard Allen, her own son. I mean, see, Grace,
this is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for
being with us. Convicted Delphi double killer Richard Allen, local
pharmacy techt makes chilling statements to his own mother after
(01:33):
he murders Libby and Abby and before long before he
is arrested. Of course, when the two best friends, Abby
and Libby didn't come home from the local hiking trail.
Delphi residents dropped everything they were doing to help find
the girls, and then their worst nightmares came true. The girls'
(01:58):
bodies mutilated were discovered in the woods the next day.
But now we learn one person, a forty five year
old pharmacy tech, a husband, a father, a son, was
making really weird comments about the murders and trying to
(02:21):
talk his own relatives out of joining the searches. I
didn't know that at trial. This is all new, and
we're learning it all from a brand new book, Shadow
of the Bridge, The Delphi Murders, and the Dark Side
of the American Heartland. What did Richard Allen say to
(02:42):
his mother after the murders and before long before he
was arrested a few days after Libby and Abbey were murdered,
Janice Allan, Richard Allen's mother, got a very odd call
from her son, Chard Allan, and out of the blue,
sounding very nervous, he says, quote, they're going to pend
(03:06):
this on me. Why would he say that right after
the murders. He wasn't even a suspect. He told his
mother that he had been on the trails the day
the girls were murdered and had been smoking a cigarette,
and he came up with this elaborate theory that investigators
would find the cigarette butt, get his DNA off it,
(03:27):
and use that to tie him to the crime scene. Now,
his mother later told this to police, and she says
she found it very odd, but she kept it to
herself for years. How did we get here? The killer
was right under everybody's nose, literally in the center of town.
(03:53):
First of all, take a listen to our friends at WHR.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
We know Richard Allen worked as a licensed farming tech
at this CVS here in Delphi. But many continue to
ask and wonder how a man now charged with two
counts of murder managed to stay under the radar in
a town of about three thousand people. Those who live
in Delphi are still trying to cope with news that
Richard Allen is the man police say murdered Abby Williams
(04:20):
and Libby Jerman.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
I mean, it's the day after Halloween, but it is.
It's a little eerie.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
And tense in downtown Delphi on the Square, businesses like
the Office Tavern put up a new sign on their
door reading no media aloud. They weren't the only ones.
Country Hair also had a sign off camera. One business
owner Total thirteen news. The community is still in shock.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
Even the girls' families grappling with the reality that their
girls a murderer, brutal murderer. Remember, according to one released affidavit,
there were copious amounts of blood at the scene. These
two little girls, libbyan Abbey had their throats slit. They
(05:03):
are grappling with the reality that the killer was right
under their nose. Take a listen to Fox fifty nine.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
They're also facing a harsh reality that Richard Allen was
living amongst them the whole time.
Speaker 4 (05:16):
I don't know the gentleman.
Speaker 5 (05:18):
Personally at all, you know, so I probably seen him,
but you know, it's a small county, you know, but
definitely don't. I don't know him.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
One of the most chilling revelations was that Becky said Alan,
who worked at a local CBS, had printed off pictures
for the girls's funeral, leaving the family to wonder how
did nobody know?
Speaker 1 (05:37):
When the family says we didn't know him, that's like
you don't know your mailman. You don't know the guy
at McDonald's. It gives you a large coffee with two
creams in it every morning. You don't know the neighbor
three doors down, but you do. Again, thank you for
(05:58):
being with us as we are struggling with the reality
that a double killer, according to police, was right there
saying good morning. How can I help you every single
day to practiculally everybody in town To Cheryl McCollum joining me,
Founder director of the Cold Case Research Institute, Cheryl, isn't
the CVS right in the middle of.
Speaker 6 (06:19):
Town, Right in the middle of town.
Speaker 7 (06:21):
If you take the CBS and make it the center
of a wheel with spokes, you get to the high school,
you get to the middle school, you get to the bridge.
Everywhere is centered from downtown.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
Well, you know, I know our pharmacists because the twins
are so sick when they were little, we were in
there all the time. I know them. They're families through pictures.
Everybody that works there. You get to know your pharmacist,
and this local pharmacy tech seemingly dealt with everybody in town.
Joining me right now. Max Lewis with Fox fifty nine.
(06:56):
You can find him on insta at Max Lewis TV.
Max thank you for being with us. I guess the
town is stunned right now because in one picture he's
at a bar, what was it, J and hc ands
bar and grill. He's sitting right there living it up,
and right behind him on the wall is his composite. Yeah.
Speaker 8 (07:19):
I mean people were just when we heard about it,
we saw this picture, we saw who he was. People
were stunned. Five and a half years they've been investigating
this and this guy has been living amongst them the
whole time. He's been filling their prescriptions, they' printing off
photos form at CBS, and nobody saw anything. I think
that's sort of what the family was saying there. And
(07:41):
what a whole lot of people have told me is
really nobody saw this guy. Nobody looked at the sketch
and thought maybe it was him or anything like that.
I mean, it was just sort of really shocking.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
Right now, the shock factor. And I'll tell you what
I think, and this is from having handle cases where
the killer was right there in the community the whole time. Yeah,
we all looked at the possibility it was a transient.
But Cheryl McComb, you and I agreed on day one,
this was no transient. Right day one, you and.
Speaker 6 (08:11):
I said it, and we never wavered from it. We
even said he would be within five miles and there
once I got to Delphi and we saw where the
bridge was, I mean that to me, I was like,
he's even closer than I think.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
And remember the guy the catfisher was Keegan kleinb Gosh
I not now I know their names by heart. Keegan
Kline was a perv, pasty looking dude, middle age. I
think he is anyway, using a screenshot Anthony shots of
a Justin Bieber looking aline trying to lure young girls.
And he was talking to them just a day or
(08:47):
two before and maybe the day of. But he lives
like thirty sixty miles away, and you and I thought, yeah,
that's tempting, it's really tempting. But the distance didn't fit
to us, because who would know to go to that
dirt road, to that particular trail, to that trestle bridge
and then down to a bottleneck tape forced the girls
(09:10):
down to where they really couldn't get away and murder them.
Had to be a local.
Speaker 6 (09:14):
It had to be a local with intimate knowledge, because
even where they crossed the creek that's where the creek
was shallow. Other parts of it are waist deep.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
This person knew Hold on, wait a minute, I'm trying
to drink him. What you're saying parts of the creek shallow,
other parts waste deep, and that factored into it. It
absolutely did. Why are you saying that, because again.
Speaker 6 (09:35):
This person would have to know that if you and
I just were visiting that area, we would know where
to cross that creek and again waist high, chest high
in some places that has been raining, but he knew
right where to cross where it was less than ankle deep.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
And Max Lewis Fox fifty nine joining us, He's been
all over this, Max Lewis. The thing is the killer
would know, and you've been to that trestle Bridge times.
The killer would have to know that there were other
people that were in that I'm going to call it
a park, it's more like a hiking area, and where
he killed them, other people would not be able to
(10:11):
see what was going on, even though they could be
walking around in the hiking area.
Speaker 8 (10:17):
Yeah, and you know, yeah, this is a very well
traveled area, So I mean, it's hard to believe that
nobody would have seen them. That may be where the
sort of you remember that that chilling audio recording the
down the hill. You know, we don't necessarily know, you know,
if he is the bridge guy per se. You know
that's still they're holding everything close to the best at
(10:37):
this point.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
Okay, wait, wait, well woa whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, stop
the train, Max Lewis, Let's follow that theory to its
logical conclusion, and that would be that there were two killers.
That one guy lured them down, the so called bridge guy,
and then Richard Allen raped and murdered them. I find
that hard to believe. My mind is still open. But
(10:59):
is that you're suggesting?
Speaker 8 (11:01):
Well, that seems to be somewhat of the indication that
we are getting at this point, because they do reddit. No, no,
we're getting that from the way they're handling this. They
steal those documents, they say, this investigation is ongoing. What
more than they need? If they have their guide they've
made and the rest they found a probable concept of David,
(11:21):
what more.
Speaker 9 (11:22):
Do they need?
Speaker 1 (11:23):
Cheryl mc coombs, straighten it out, woman.
Speaker 6 (11:25):
There's a great possibility there are additional victims. So they
are going to connect every dot they possibly can. This
investigation does not end, and arrest in a great world
is where it starts.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
Yeah, you know you really think I'm not picking on you,
Max Lewis, You're the messenger, Okay, but do you really
think this guy went from zero to one twenty mph
in one day? Because I don't even when a sports car,
it takes a minute to heat up. So I'm not
(12:00):
buying it. I think what Cheryl mccoum just said is right.
I think a law enforcement are looking for other young
girl victims. Were they sex assaulted, were they threatened, did
they feel threatened? And for people that may have helped
him cover up this crime. Back to who is this guy?
Take a listen now to this.
Speaker 3 (12:21):
Before moving to DOLPHI, he lived in this home with
his wife and daughter.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
According to neighbors, David.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
Yoder lived across the street but has known Allan since
he was born and grew up with his dad.
Speaker 4 (12:31):
I mean, I would have never thought living crossed the
road from him, there's anything, that's.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
Where we're setting my kids due if there had been
any trouble.
Speaker 3 (12:39):
But after hearing, Allan was arrested in charge with killing
Abby Williams and Libby Jerman. He's now questioning if he
really knew him.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
It's just hard to believe. He's a heck of a
nice guy, always has been. Heck of a nice guy,
always has been. Well, you know what they said that
about Joseph DiAngelo, the Golden State Killer. In fact, he
had even been a cop. He was in Oxford, California.
They said the same thing about the dog catcher, which
makes me suspicious that get go who wants to catch
(13:06):
dogs and put them to debt? Not me BTK buying,
torture kill. Dennis Rader, deacon at the church, freak, complete
total freak. After he would murder people in his community
on his dog catching route, he would then redress them
and put makeup on them and pose them. Let that
sink in. Everybody thought he was a nice, upstanding guy too.
(13:30):
And of course I'm just going to go out on
a limb. Scott Peterson. And yes, I know there was
a cable TV entertainment program suggesting that Scott Peterson is innocent.
He's not. He's guilty. He murdered Lacy and Connor. And
you can throw all the hate at me you want to,
but that is the truth. I was in the trial.
(13:52):
Were you bet you weren't. If you believe everything somebody
is paid to create to convince you to get rating,
you're barking up the wrong tree. So I'm gonna throw
Scott Peterson in there too. Crime stories with Nancy Grace
(14:16):
chilling comments come to light, comments made by double killer
Richard Allen. I wonder what all the trolls are gonna
have to say about this. Why would Richard Allen, after
the girls are murdered, and long before he's arrested, say
they're gonna pend this on me. They're gonna pend this
on me. I had a cigarette out there on the trail.
I was there that day. Why would you say all
(14:37):
that to your mom? The mom who, by the way,
kept it to herself for years, but when her son
was arrested, she recalled the strange conversation she actually told police.
We also learn that that conversation it stuck in her
mind to the point that years later she brought it up.
(14:59):
Now many would argue that circumstantial evidence and that's not
enough for a conviction. But it's just more and more
brick in the wall. What more do we know about
the murders? David Yoder grew up with Richard Allen as
a child and was his neighbor for years and years.
And you just heard him say two Max, if my
(15:21):
children are in trouble, I tell him to run over there.
That's how much he trusts trusted Richard Allen. David Yoder,
thank you for being with user. Okay, tell me, Davy Yoder,
don't leave anything out. What do you recall growing up
with Richard Allen? I grew up with a little girl
named Joy Jones. Connie Joy Jones lived across the street.
(15:42):
They had four children, one was the same age of
each of us, and it was wonderful. Still friends after
all that time, she says. The first time she met me,
I came to her door unannounced or uninvited. They opened
the door and I said, Matt, please have Ticky. That's
how that friendship started. Tell me about Richard Allen, Well.
Speaker 4 (16:06):
He was a good kid growing up. I mean, never
in any trouble. They were a good family. His dad
is a friend of mine. Uh he uh, there's just
good people all around, good people. They're very smart people.
His Grandpaul was the principal at my grade school and
(16:29):
a teacher. Uh that there's just a good family all around,
good family, and I just a shock to think that rec.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
Could do something like this. But it's just it's just
a shock.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
Like I said, I would have sent my kids over
there to a safe.
Speaker 4 (16:49):
House, over to him if I had to, you know,
to go there if there was any problems and I
wasn't home or something.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Well. I feel the same way about Connie Joey Jones.
If somebody told me Connie Joy Jones aka Joy Jones
committed a double murder much less on children, I'd say
no way. I'd go to court and go under oath
and talk about what a great person she was and
is and has been alone with my children, and I
(17:18):
would have her be alone with them again. I know
what you're saying. What is his character? You keep saying
a good guy? What do you mean by that? He
never once shotlifted, he never spent, he never took a
pack of gun from the store, nothing.
Speaker 4 (17:35):
He always spoke, He was real nice, cordial, never disrespected me.
I mean, I'm older than he is several years.
Speaker 8 (17:44):
He was better friends with his dad than him, But
I will growing up.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
How much older are you, Dan, Richard Allen, I'm fifty
eight and Alan is fifty right, Okay, eighteen years fifty,
so somewhere now when you say, good guy, How did
he do in school? Did he play a sport?
Speaker 4 (18:04):
Not so much an athlete?
Speaker 1 (18:05):
No, what did he do? I don't know just what
to school.
Speaker 4 (18:10):
I wasn't with him in school. His dad I was.
Is that who you're talking about?
Speaker 1 (18:14):
No, I'm talking about Richard Allen. I'm not as interested
in his parents Richard.
Speaker 4 (18:18):
I was out of school when Richard went to school.
I mean, I was eighteen years old than he was.
He's young enough to be my kid.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
And never a bit of trouble when he was growing up.
That is, he brothers and sisters. He's got one sister.
Where does she live.
Speaker 9 (18:31):
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (18:32):
I lost track of her a long time ago. I mean,
and I have Richard too. He moved away from here.
I just kind of lost track of him.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
Talking about Richard Allen, neighbors that actually grew up with
him saw him grow up as a child like David
Yoder or having a hard time taking in that he
is now charged with double murderer David Yoder. What did
you think when you learned that cops have arrested Richard
Allen for the murders of Abby and Libby first starting
(19:03):
on through my minders, No way, No Way, David Yoder
says he is absolutely shocked that a boy he knew
his entire childhood, all the way through growing up and
moving away as an adult, is responsible for such a
gruesome sex attack we believe, and double murder we believe
(19:26):
by knife. I don't know. I have to ask a
shrink Karen Stark about this, but the thought of putting
a knife to a little girl's throat is just it's
it's repulsive. I don't even want to think about it.
But a little digging does reveal a tiny lip. Take
a listen to our friend Max at Fox fifty nine.
Speaker 3 (19:47):
Alan has no criminal history, but Carol County Dispatch records
show he had one encounter with police in twenty fifteen.
The sheriff said it was a domestic issue where Allan
was supposedly drunk and his wife took him to a
lit hospital. No law enforcement action was taken, but deputies
were sent to his del Phi home to quote, keep
the peace.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
Okay, Max a little. So far, the cops haven't come
to our home to keep the peace, and nobody's been
carted off to the emergency room drunk as a skunk?
So what do we know about what happened?
Speaker 8 (20:18):
They were providing a whole lot of clarification about that.
You know, it sounds like there was you know, as
I said, there there was a domestic situation. When I
asked the shriff, who's the domestic station situation between he
wouldn't tell me. So, you know, I am a little
suspect of this, but you know that was But it's
also the only other thing I ever founded him. I mean,
(20:40):
you saw, I went to his hometown, looked through his
criminal background. That's the only thing we found about him.
And it did happen at three o'clock in the morning.
So you know, I'll leave that for you guys to
decide what you want to think about.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
That, and I certainly will I certainly will dis say
that who is up causing a ruck as drunk as
a skunk at three am? That's not good to Fran Longwell,
former Deputy State's Attorney in Calvert County, former Assistant State's
Attorney and Prince George specializing and homicides and other related crimes.
(21:15):
Fran thank you for being with us. What do you
make of this prior arrest the prior arrest.
Speaker 5 (21:19):
I think it shows in my opinion that he does
have some type of violence streak in him.
Speaker 8 (21:25):
But I kind of agree with you.
Speaker 5 (21:27):
Nancy, that this didn't start from zero to what happened
to these little girls. I'm just concerned that we're going
to find other victims, or we're going to find other
other kids that have been abused by this guy.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
Yeah, why are you saying that, Cheryl McCombe. What leads
you to that speculation? But by the way, I agree.
Speaker 6 (21:43):
With you, Well, I mean, again, broad daylight, two victims
with other people around, a victim that clearly has a
cell phone, that is high risk. You're talking about somebody
on the bridge that's, you know, eighty feet behind the
air and has boards missing, and everything he did was
so risky. It tells me that ain't his first rodeo.
(22:06):
And I want to say one more thing. When I was.
Speaker 10 (22:07):
Listening to the neighbors speak, and I think people need
to understand when you look at a case like this
and you're only thinking from your vantage point, you can't
possibly accept.
Speaker 6 (22:17):
It or understand it. But when you talk to criminologists
like you and I, Nancy, we talked probably their throats
were slash, they were posed, they were staged. Things were
probably done there, whether it's a carving or some sort
of ritual if you look at it. If this was
my case, one of the first things I would do
is go to CBS and see if there's a camera
(22:39):
in the girls restaurant.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
Well, that's funny you would say that, because after our
investigating a case in chief, the very next thing I
would do is start looking for similar transactions. But you
said it so much more descriptively than I did. Because
a crime like this that there has got to be
some prior not necessarily Scott Peterson type case where that
(23:02):
is a domestic homicide. He hasn't had another wife to
kill in a case like this. However, these are not
his children, so although he does have a daughter near
their age, that tells me there are very likely other victims.
And I agree with you three hundred percent. Now, what
(23:26):
do we know about a twelve plus hour search of
his home. Something in that home led them to ultimately
arrest the local pharmacists that tech Richard Allen. Take a
listen to our cut eighty three our friends at crime
Online and first our friend Lindsay stone Box fifty nine.
Speaker 11 (23:48):
Richard Allen was not a stranger to this community. Information
uncovered by our RUSSA quaid from sources with knowledge of
the investigation. He even came forward in the early days
of the investigation as a witness from the moment high Bridge,
the day Abbey and Libby were killed in February of
twenty seventeen. Now, at the time, any inquiry did not
reveal the need for further investigation. However, his name surfaced
(24:10):
again recently. A search form was issued at his house
two weeks ago and revealed evidence reportedly linking him to
the deaths.
Speaker 12 (24:18):
Ten days before the arrest of murder suspect Richard Allen,
police officers extensively searched the fifty year old's home. Neighbors
tell the New York Posts the non uniformed officers were
on the property for about twelve hours. During the search
of the property, Allen chairs with his wife.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
Officers were seen.
Speaker 12 (24:34):
Quote snooping a lot around the fire pit and at
the backyard. A neighbor describes quote lots of flashlights, lots
of pictures, lots of sifting unquote in that area. The
source says that it was odd for them to be
in that area, as the Allens were never observed burning things.
The neighbor also said when police arrived at the property,
(24:54):
no one suspected that there would be a.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
Connection to the murders of Living and Abbey. What are
they looking for? What were they looking for? If the
Allens really didn't use the fire pit, then what were
they digging around for? Could have anything to do with
blood evidence and there will be blood evidence marked my words.
Take a listen to our friends at WISH.
Speaker 13 (25:19):
This nine page request for a search warrant filed March
seventeenth of twenty seventeen. Now that's a little more than
a month after Libby Jerman and Abby Williams were found
murdered in Delphi. This disturbing document, for the first time
gives us an investigator's description of the crime scene and
what the suspect may have taken with him. The document,
(25:39):
written by an FBI agent, describes what investigators found when
they discovered the bodies of Abby Williams and Libby German
on February fourteenth. The agent writes a large amount of
blood was lost by the victims at the crime scene.
Because of the nature of the victim's wounds, it is
nearly certain the perpetrator of the crime would have gotten
(26:00):
blood on his person or clothing.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
Straight out to Fox fifty nine's Max Lewis, all of
that together, let's make sense of it. Number one, A
twelve plus hour search of Richard Allen's home. A few
days later, they come back and arrest him. They're digging
around a very unused fire pit with disturbed earth near by.
(26:23):
We know there's blood evidence. And also did you hear
that that he actually came forward as a witness in
the early days of the investigation.
Speaker 8 (26:35):
Yeah, he from what we have heard from our sources.
You know, he you know, walked up and volunteered to
police and said, hey, you know, I was up there.
I didn't really see anything, but you know I can
tell you, you know, whatever you need.
Speaker 9 (26:48):
To know or whatever.
Speaker 8 (26:50):
So, you know, that's sort of another amazing thing. And
he was sort of brushed off and not really given
a whole lot of thought to as far as the
search goes on his house. Yeah, they were neighbors told
us they were searching around there, digging in the backyard,
digging in a fire pit. Makes you wonder what was
in that fire pit? Was he trying to get rid
of something, you know, what was going on back There
(27:13):
so many, so many unanswered questions about this, but it
all doesn't look good.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
I want to circle back to what you just said.
Tell me again. Max Slow is joining us from Fox
fifty nine, who's been on the case from the very
very beginning. You stayed at the in the initial days
of the investigation that Richard Allen went to police and
said I was there and offered himself up as a witness.
Speaker 8 (27:37):
That's right, he was, you know, on he said he
was on the trail that day. And I'm not exactly
sure how the encounter happened if he was, you know,
if police came upon him and started, you know, asking him,
or if he just walked up to them and said, hey,
I was here, didn't see anything. But you know, I
can help you with what you need to know. But
we do know that he was interviewed by police in
(27:58):
the days after Abby and Libby first disappeared and then
were found murdered.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
To Karen started joining me. Renowned psychologists joining us out
of Manhattan at karenstart dot com. That's Karen with the
Sea Karen. He places himself at the scene of the murder.
Scott Peterson did that idiot. He places himself there claiming
he's fishing on Christmas Eve in the cold and the rain,
(28:27):
and then Lacy and Connor's bodies turn up miraculously where
he was fishing, and then in the weeks that followed,
he was tracked back and forth to the San Francisco
Bay looking out over the water. I guess he was
trying to see if their bodies had washed up. But
also it reminds me of Wayne Williams, the Atlanta serial killer.
(28:52):
He was always at the scene of the crime before
anybody else got there, under the guise of being a
stringer for TV stations. He was always there and I
think trying to glean evidence from the police, trying to
get information. Were they on to him? What do you
make of him coming to the scene in the day's
(29:13):
immediately following the gruesome murders of Abby and Libby.
Speaker 8 (29:17):
I'm not the.
Speaker 14 (29:18):
Least surprised, Nancy, because, yes, perhaps looking for evidence, But
the truth is, when you're that kind of person, a psychopath,
capable of doing this without empathy, you are, in many
instances rewiving what happens. He's enjoying. Believe it or not
every moment of this very cunning and manipulative sitting under
(29:42):
posters with his own sketch in the back of him.
And I want to tell you something. You mentioned all
those killers who everyone keeps saying, you know, yeah, I
never would have expected it of him. And that's not surprising,
because that's part of this mo supersticially charming, and they
(30:02):
strike observers as remarkably normal, but they're not normal. Just
the fact that.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
He did that.
Speaker 14 (30:10):
Think about it, he goes, he's the one that the
senseily committed this crime, and he's volunteering. And I think
that very often police forget to look at a person
like this. If they want to be there, they want
to be a part of it. They're getting it thrill
out of reliving it and being a part of the process.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
I don't know if the name Rodney al Kala rings
the bell and Cheryl says, you're jumping in, I'll throw
this to you. He was the Dating Game killer, Rodney
al Kala, and he was so charming, he managed handsome,
the works to some people, not me, but many people.
He was so charming and personal that they put him
(30:52):
on the Dating Game remember that show, and he turned
out to be a cold bloody.
Speaker 5 (30:56):
Killer, cold bloody killer.
Speaker 6 (30:58):
But let's talk about people getting gray shape themselves in
cases Zodiac did it, Zodiac couldn't take it and had
to write them letters. And let's talk about another thing
with Wayne Williams that is identical to this case. Wayne
Williams also burned things, not in a fire pit, but
on his grill. Remember after police, yeah, and FBI came. Okay,
(31:19):
So these are people that the thrill that she mentioned
is absolutely correct. And that's another reason he hasn't maybe
had to repeat the crime yet because he's still living
this one. The family comes into CBS and he has
contact with them, you know, ask him, hey, do you
need anything. Maybe he goes to where Kelsey works. You know,
(31:40):
Kelsey always said she worried about that.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
And that is the victim's sister had contact.
Speaker 6 (31:45):
But I'll tell you something else. I guarantee you he
went to the funeral or the viewing. And I guarantee
you he was a volunteer searcher, whether it was official
or not. I guarantee he was out there.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
Okay. I got a pretty good idea what may have
been burned and that fire pit. Take a listen to
our friend to me Johnson WISHTV.
Speaker 13 (32:05):
Authorities also found that two articles of clothing from one
of the girls was missing from the crime scene, while
the rest of their clothing was recovered. It also appeared
the girl's bodies were moved and staged. The agent goes
on to say, based upon my training and experience, it
is common for perpetrators of this type of crime to
take a souvenir or in some fashion memorialize the crime scene.
(32:29):
The agent also references the video on Libby's phone, confirming
it was forty three seconds long. Up until now, only
a few seconds have been made public.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
That the girls were followed.
Speaker 13 (32:43):
By the suspect on the Monon Highbridge trail, and that
there were no visible signs of a struggle or fight.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
Crime stores with Nancy Grace to this day. Richard Allen
says he's the victim and that there's been a horrible
miscarriage of justice. Another oddity. Immediately after the girls go missing,
Kathy Allen, that's Richard Allen's wife of thirty four very
(33:18):
long years. I'm sure the mother of his daughter, Britney,
wanted to go search for the girls. We learned from
the New book Shadow of the Bridge, the Delphi Murders,
and the Dark Side of the American Heartland, and the
book is by journalist Amy Caine and lawyer Kevin Greenley.
(33:39):
They recount that the wife, Richard Allen's wife wanted to
go search for the girls. A lot of employers were
actually giving employees a day off to go and search
for the girls. Everyone was volunteering. Alan's wife, Kathy, wanted
to go and search, but Alan actively convinced his wife
(34:00):
not to get involved. What was actually said, we don't
know specifically, but we do know it was enough to
keep her from joining in the search. She also had
to convince Richard Allen, her own husband, to tell police
he was on the trails that day. He was reluctant
(34:23):
to call in the tip. Why what more do we know?
Fran Longwell joining US veteran trial lawyer, expertise homicide, What
do you make of that, friend.
Speaker 5 (34:36):
I think that's totally that's natural. I think a lot
of them, a lot of serial killers, for sure, always
seemed to take some kind of souvenir. We had a
case years ago where they were finding bodies along the
Beltway and in areas for shortest County, and years and
years later, death suspect was found. He was able to
(34:58):
draw pictures of each feel what she looked like, and
he had some sulvenir each one of those murders. I
don't think that's unusual. I think that's part of their
excitement of the crime.
Speaker 1 (35:10):
What about it, Karen Stark, New York psychologists joining us
today from Manhattan. What about taking souvenirs, It's very common.
It's like, you know, all those scrapbooks I have of
the twins. I mean, I don't even know how many
I've got Birthday, Christening, Christmas, Thanksgiving, Birthday, just goes on
and on in summer vacation for every year they're fifteen. Karen,
(35:34):
those are my souvenirs.
Speaker 14 (35:36):
But their souvenirs are of the crime, Nancy. They want
to relive it. That's the whole thing is that it's
exciting to them. So two pieces of clothing. I hate
to say this, but I have a feeling it will
be underwear, because they like to do that. To take underwear,
to take some kind of token that they've been there,
(35:57):
that they did is it gives them a really good
sense of themselves. They're powerful, they're aboveve the law and
they got away with them.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
And they're caught dead in the water. Cheryl McCollum. The
evidence would suggest this. What about the theory that the
girls were redressed and that somehow some of their clothing
were interchanged by accident.
Speaker 6 (36:27):
Again, those of us in this business, redressing is something
that occurs.
Speaker 1 (36:32):
I mean, it's something that they have ted Bundy. Oh,
after the person was dead, he had redressed them and
do their hair and makeup, had bathed their bodies in
the pathtub at the house.
Speaker 6 (36:43):
Is what keys did the same thing, make up, hair,
redress them, pose them raiding the girl's hair like polk.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
Yeah, oh gosh, Yeah.
Speaker 6 (36:51):
That's part of their fantasy. They're acting something out. So
a lot of times we focus on the murder, but
it is a sexually generated there's no question about it.
And again his computers, when you know, the superintendent mentioned
the lab so often, the electronic part, the biology, the
tool marks, the voice.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
Analysis, the hares, the fiber, the blood, the blood, the
tool marks which is from a knife.
Speaker 6 (37:20):
But I also think Arsen is going to be a
money tree.
Speaker 1 (37:23):
To doctor Todd m bar now joining us, speaking of blood,
he is a board certified and atomic clinical forensic pathologist
joining us out of Ohio. He's featured in Thin Places
Essays from in Between and you can find them on
Twitter at Todd Barma. That's for medical examiner, doctor bar
(37:44):
Thank you for being with us and waiting for the
build up to the scientists, the medical examiners that ultimately
says there are no eyewitnesses as of yet will make
or break this case. We learned there are copious amounts
of blood at the scene. How is that likely to
(38:05):
have happened?
Speaker 9 (38:06):
Well, Nancy, it seems to me. I know that there's
some speculation that possibly the throats of the victims had
been flashed, and you know, because the carotid arteries are
under such high pressure, there would be a lot of
spatter and disbursement of blood in the process. So you're
absolutely one hundred percent correct. That would be transfer of
(38:28):
that blood evidence not only onto the victim's clothing, but
also onto the perpetrator. So and my thought was, you know,
maybe he even was burying the murder weapon that in
the firepit area, possibly the clothing. And I've worked on
several serial killer cases before, and they do like to
(38:50):
take a trophy from uh, you know, it's in my
my experience that that that these articles that they collect
are basically like a trophy. And I have to also
think to myself that perhaps these people revisiting the case
trying to get involved in the case, there may even
(39:11):
be some notoriety element, like they actually want to be caught.
So I think that, you know, with a twenty million
dollar bond on this gentleman, there's got to be some
significant evidence that they found. I know it's all feeled,
but I'm very much concerned that there are other victims
that play here.
Speaker 1 (39:31):
Wow, that was a lot of information, doctor Todd Barr.
So I'm just digesting everything that you just said. Got
a question. If this is, as we believe, a stabbing death,
I find very very unusual. I would have suspected a
strangling death or some sort of asphyxiation under these circumstances,
(39:53):
But due to the copious amounts of blood too, which
have been eluded in the documents, it leads me to
think that it is in fact a stabbing death. If
there are multiple stab wounds, such as in that Jody
Aria's case where Travis Alexander was stabbed twenty nine plus
times and then shot would you be able to match that.
(40:16):
They're called tool markings, match the wounds up to a
particular knife.
Speaker 15 (40:21):
And if so, how depending on the type of knife
that may have been used. If it was one that
had a serrated edge, you could actually if it if
the tool actually got into the bone in the area
that's that's where the tool marks are found when the
when the blade would pass over the bone, and if
(40:43):
it's serrated, they can actually match up those serrated edges
almost identically to show you know that a specific tool
was used. So if they do have the murder weapon
and they have evidence of serrations on the bone, than
that's very easily dematched up.
Speaker 1 (41:03):
Five years after the murder, right years passed after the
murders before Richard Allen was arrested, a seemingly clerical error
meant the tip, a specific tip fell through the cracks,
but when it resurfaced, Richard Allen was re interviewed and
confirmed he was on the trail and wearing the same
(41:25):
outfit blue jeans and a car heart jacket as the
guy caught on camera by the victims. What more will
be uncovered? What more will be revealed about Richard Allen,
now convicted in the murders of Abby and Libby, their
(41:46):
young lives cut short. Chilling comments he made to his
mom after he murdered the two little girls now coming
to light. Don't worry, there will be an appeal and
wait for justice to unfold. Nancy Grace signing off.
Speaker 8 (42:10):
Mm hmm
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Good evening. I'm Nancy Grace
and it's Friday night. You know what that means. I've
got a Friday Night special for you. Delphi killer Richard Allen.
The evidence just keeps piling up. We're learning things now.
(00:23):
We didn't hear it trial. Now what will all the
haters say, all the trolls online that said the jury
got it wrong, the judge was wrong, the prosecutors were wrong.
The victims' families, Oh, they were wrong. Susan Hendrix, who
covered the case, she was wrong. I'm wrong. Everybody's wrong,
(00:45):
and Richard Allen is right. Not so quick tonight, we're
learning about chilling comments Richard Allen made after Liberty and
were killed, murdered, and before he was arrested to an individual,
(01:09):
a witness that you would think would do anything to
cover for Richard Allen, her own son. I mean, see, Grace,
this is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for
being with us. Convicted Delphi double killer Richard Allen, local
pharmacy techt makes chilling statements to his own mother after
(01:33):
he murders Libby and Abby and before long before he
is arrested. Of course, when the two best friends, Abby
and Libby didn't come home from the local hiking trail.
Delphi residents dropped everything they were doing to help find
the girls, and then their worst nightmares came true. The girls'
(01:58):
bodies mutilated were discovered in the woods the next day.
But now we learn one person, a forty five year
old pharmacy tech, a husband, a father, a son, was
making really weird comments about the murders and trying to
(02:21):
talk his own relatives out of joining the searches. I
didn't know that at trial. This is all new, and
we're learning it all from a brand new book, Shadow
of the Bridge, The Delphi Murders, and the Dark Side
of the American Heartland. What did Richard Allen say to
(02:42):
his mother after the murders and before long before he
was arrested a few days after Libby and Abbey were murdered,
Janice Allan, Richard Allen's mother, got a very odd call
from her son, Chard Allan, and out of the blue,
sounding very nervous, he says, quote, they're going to pend
(03:06):
this on me. Why would he say that right after
the murders. He wasn't even a suspect. He told his
mother that he had been on the trails the day
the girls were murdered and had been smoking a cigarette,
and he came up with this elaborate theory that investigators
would find the cigarette butt, get his DNA off it,
(03:27):
and use that to tie him to the crime scene. Now,
his mother later told this to police, and she says
she found it very odd, but she kept it to
herself for years. How did we get here? The killer
was right under everybody's nose, literally in the center of town.
(03:53):
First of all, take a listen to our friends at WHR.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
We know Richard Allen worked as a licensed farming tech
at this CVS here in Delphi. But many continue to
ask and wonder how a man now charged with two
counts of murder managed to stay under the radar in
a town of about three thousand people. Those who live
in Delphi are still trying to cope with news that
Richard Allen is the man police say murdered Abby Williams
(04:20):
and Libby Jerman.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
I mean, it's the day after Halloween, but it is.
It's a little eerie.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
And tense in downtown Delphi on the Square, businesses like
the Office Tavern put up a new sign on their
door reading no media aloud. They weren't the only ones.
Country Hair also had a sign off camera. One business
owner Total thirteen news. The community is still in shock.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
Even the girls' families grappling with the reality that their
girls a murderer, brutal murderer. Remember, according to one released affidavit,
there were copious amounts of blood at the scene. These
two little girls, libbyan Abbey had their throats slit. They
(05:03):
are grappling with the reality that the killer was right
under their nose. Take a listen to Fox fifty nine.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
They're also facing a harsh reality that Richard Allen was
living amongst them the whole time.
Speaker 4 (05:16):
I don't know the gentleman.
Speaker 5 (05:18):
Personally at all, you know, so I probably seen him,
but you know, it's a small county, you know, but
definitely don't. I don't know him.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
One of the most chilling revelations was that Becky said Alan,
who worked at a local CBS, had printed off pictures
for the girls's funeral, leaving the family to wonder how
did nobody know?
Speaker 1 (05:37):
When the family says we didn't know him, that's like
you don't know your mailman. You don't know the guy
at McDonald's. It gives you a large coffee with two
creams in it every morning. You don't know the neighbor
three doors down, but you do. Again, thank you for
(05:58):
being with us as we are struggling with the reality
that a double killer, according to police, was right there
saying good morning. How can I help you every single
day to practiculally everybody in town To Cheryl McCollum joining me,
Founder director of the Cold Case Research Institute, Cheryl, isn't
the CVS right in the middle of.
Speaker 6 (06:19):
Town, Right in the middle of town.
Speaker 7 (06:21):
If you take the CBS and make it the center
of a wheel with spokes, you get to the high school,
you get to the middle school, you get to the bridge.
Everywhere is centered from downtown.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
Well, you know, I know our pharmacists because the twins
are so sick when they were little, we were in
there all the time. I know them. They're families through pictures.
Everybody that works there. You get to know your pharmacist,
and this local pharmacy tech seemingly dealt with everybody in town.
Joining me right now. Max Lewis with Fox fifty nine.
(06:56):
You can find him on insta at Max Lewis TV.
Max thank you for being with us. I guess the
town is stunned right now because in one picture he's
at a bar, what was it, J and hc ands
bar and grill. He's sitting right there living it up,
and right behind him on the wall is his composite. Yeah.
Speaker 8 (07:19):
I mean people were just when we heard about it,
we saw this picture, we saw who he was. People
were stunned. Five and a half years they've been investigating
this and this guy has been living amongst them the
whole time. He's been filling their prescriptions, they' printing off
photos form at CBS, and nobody saw anything. I think
that's sort of what the family was saying there. And
(07:41):
what a whole lot of people have told me is
really nobody saw this guy. Nobody looked at the sketch
and thought maybe it was him or anything like that.
I mean, it was just sort of really shocking.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
Right now, the shock factor. And I'll tell you what
I think, and this is from having handle cases where
the killer was right there in the community the whole time. Yeah,
we all looked at the possibility it was a transient.
But Cheryl McComb, you and I agreed on day one,
this was no transient. Right day one, you and.
Speaker 6 (08:11):
I said it, and we never wavered from it. We
even said he would be within five miles and there
once I got to Delphi and we saw where the
bridge was, I mean that to me, I was like,
he's even closer than I think.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
And remember the guy the catfisher was Keegan kleinb Gosh
I not now I know their names by heart. Keegan
Kline was a perv, pasty looking dude, middle age. I
think he is anyway, using a screenshot Anthony shots of
a Justin Bieber looking aline trying to lure young girls.
And he was talking to them just a day or
(08:47):
two before and maybe the day of. But he lives
like thirty sixty miles away, and you and I thought, yeah,
that's tempting, it's really tempting. But the distance didn't fit
to us, because who would know to go to that
dirt road, to that particular trail, to that trestle bridge
and then down to a bottleneck tape forced the girls
(09:10):
down to where they really couldn't get away and murder them.
Had to be a local.
Speaker 6 (09:14):
It had to be a local with intimate knowledge, because
even where they crossed the creek that's where the creek
was shallow. Other parts of it are waist deep.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
This person knew Hold on, wait a minute, I'm trying
to drink him. What you're saying parts of the creek shallow,
other parts waste deep, and that factored into it. It
absolutely did. Why are you saying that, because again.
Speaker 6 (09:35):
This person would have to know that if you and
I just were visiting that area, we would know where
to cross that creek and again waist high, chest high
in some places that has been raining, but he knew
right where to cross where it was less than ankle deep.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
And Max Lewis Fox fifty nine joining us, He's been
all over this, Max Lewis. The thing is the killer
would know, and you've been to that trestle Bridge times.
The killer would have to know that there were other
people that were in that I'm going to call it
a park, it's more like a hiking area, and where
he killed them, other people would not be able to
(10:11):
see what was going on, even though they could be
walking around in the hiking area.
Speaker 8 (10:17):
Yeah, and you know, yeah, this is a very well
traveled area, So I mean, it's hard to believe that
nobody would have seen them. That may be where the
sort of you remember that that chilling audio recording the
down the hill. You know, we don't necessarily know, you know,
if he is the bridge guy per se. You know
that's still they're holding everything close to the best at
(10:37):
this point.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
Okay, wait, wait, well woa whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, stop
the train, Max Lewis, Let's follow that theory to its
logical conclusion, and that would be that there were two killers.
That one guy lured them down, the so called bridge guy,
and then Richard Allen raped and murdered them. I find
that hard to believe. My mind is still open. But
(10:59):
is that you're suggesting?
Speaker 8 (11:01):
Well, that seems to be somewhat of the indication that
we are getting at this point, because they do reddit. No, no,
we're getting that from the way they're handling this. They
steal those documents, they say, this investigation is ongoing. What
more than they need? If they have their guide they've
made and the rest they found a probable concept of David,
(11:21):
what more.
Speaker 9 (11:22):
Do they need?
Speaker 1 (11:23):
Cheryl mc coombs, straighten it out, woman.
Speaker 6 (11:25):
There's a great possibility there are additional victims. So they
are going to connect every dot they possibly can. This
investigation does not end, and arrest in a great world
is where it starts.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
Yeah, you know you really think I'm not picking on you,
Max Lewis, You're the messenger, Okay, but do you really
think this guy went from zero to one twenty mph
in one day? Because I don't even when a sports car,
it takes a minute to heat up. So I'm not
(12:00):
buying it. I think what Cheryl mccoum just said is right.
I think a law enforcement are looking for other young
girl victims. Were they sex assaulted, were they threatened, did
they feel threatened? And for people that may have helped
him cover up this crime. Back to who is this guy?
Take a listen now to this.
Speaker 3 (12:21):
Before moving to DOLPHI, he lived in this home with
his wife and daughter.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
According to neighbors, David.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
Yoder lived across the street but has known Allan since
he was born and grew up with his dad.
Speaker 4 (12:31):
I mean, I would have never thought living crossed the
road from him, there's anything, that's.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
Where we're setting my kids due if there had been
any trouble.
Speaker 3 (12:39):
But after hearing, Allan was arrested in charge with killing
Abby Williams and Libby Jerman. He's now questioning if he
really knew him.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
It's just hard to believe. He's a heck of a
nice guy, always has been. Heck of a nice guy,
always has been. Well, you know what they said that
about Joseph DiAngelo, the Golden State Killer. In fact, he
had even been a cop. He was in Oxford, California.
They said the same thing about the dog catcher, which
makes me suspicious that get go who wants to catch
(13:06):
dogs and put them to debt? Not me BTK buying,
torture kill. Dennis Rader, deacon at the church, freak, complete
total freak. After he would murder people in his community
on his dog catching route, he would then redress them
and put makeup on them and pose them. Let that
sink in. Everybody thought he was a nice, upstanding guy too.
(13:30):
And of course I'm just going to go out on
a limb. Scott Peterson. And yes, I know there was
a cable TV entertainment program suggesting that Scott Peterson is innocent.
He's not. He's guilty. He murdered Lacy and Connor. And
you can throw all the hate at me you want to,
but that is the truth. I was in the trial.
(13:52):
Were you bet you weren't. If you believe everything somebody
is paid to create to convince you to get rating,
you're barking up the wrong tree. So I'm gonna throw
Scott Peterson in there too. Crime stories with Nancy Grace
(14:16):
chilling comments come to light, comments made by double killer
Richard Allen. I wonder what all the trolls are gonna
have to say about this. Why would Richard Allen, after
the girls are murdered, and long before he's arrested, say
they're gonna pend this on me. They're gonna pend this
on me. I had a cigarette out there on the trail.
I was there that day. Why would you say all
(14:37):
that to your mom? The mom who, by the way,
kept it to herself for years, but when her son
was arrested, she recalled the strange conversation she actually told police.
We also learn that that conversation it stuck in her
mind to the point that years later she brought it up.
(14:59):
Now many would argue that circumstantial evidence and that's not
enough for a conviction. But it's just more and more
brick in the wall. What more do we know about
the murders? David Yoder grew up with Richard Allen as
a child and was his neighbor for years and years.
And you just heard him say two Max, if my
(15:21):
children are in trouble, I tell him to run over there.
That's how much he trusts trusted Richard Allen. David Yoder,
thank you for being with user. Okay, tell me, Davy Yoder,
don't leave anything out. What do you recall growing up
with Richard Allen? I grew up with a little girl
named Joy Jones. Connie Joy Jones lived across the street.
(15:42):
They had four children, one was the same age of
each of us, and it was wonderful. Still friends after
all that time, she says. The first time she met me,
I came to her door unannounced or uninvited. They opened
the door and I said, Matt, please have Ticky. That's
how that friendship started. Tell me about Richard Allen, Well.
Speaker 4 (16:06):
He was a good kid growing up. I mean, never
in any trouble. They were a good family. His dad
is a friend of mine. Uh he uh, there's just
good people all around, good people. They're very smart people.
His Grandpaul was the principal at my grade school and
(16:29):
a teacher. Uh that there's just a good family all around,
good family, and I just a shock to think that rec.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
Could do something like this. But it's just it's just
a shock.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
Like I said, I would have sent my kids over
there to a safe.
Speaker 4 (16:49):
House, over to him if I had to, you know,
to go there if there was any problems and I
wasn't home or something.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Well. I feel the same way about Connie Joey Jones.
If somebody told me Connie Joy Jones aka Joy Jones
committed a double murder much less on children, I'd say
no way. I'd go to court and go under oath
and talk about what a great person she was and
is and has been alone with my children, and I
(17:18):
would have her be alone with them again. I know
what you're saying. What is his character? You keep saying
a good guy? What do you mean by that? He
never once shotlifted, he never spent, he never took a
pack of gun from the store, nothing.
Speaker 4 (17:35):
He always spoke, He was real nice, cordial, never disrespected me.
I mean, I'm older than he is several years.
Speaker 8 (17:44):
He was better friends with his dad than him, But
I will growing up.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
How much older are you, Dan, Richard Allen, I'm fifty
eight and Alan is fifty right, Okay, eighteen years fifty,
so somewhere now when you say, good guy, How did
he do in school? Did he play a sport?
Speaker 4 (18:04):
Not so much an athlete?
Speaker 1 (18:05):
No, what did he do? I don't know just what
to school.
Speaker 4 (18:10):
I wasn't with him in school. His dad I was.
Is that who you're talking about?
Speaker 1 (18:14):
No, I'm talking about Richard Allen. I'm not as interested
in his parents Richard.
Speaker 4 (18:18):
I was out of school when Richard went to school.
I mean, I was eighteen years old than he was.
He's young enough to be my kid.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
And never a bit of trouble when he was growing up.
That is, he brothers and sisters. He's got one sister.
Where does she live.
Speaker 9 (18:31):
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (18:32):
I lost track of her a long time ago. I mean,
and I have Richard too. He moved away from here.
I just kind of lost track of him.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
Talking about Richard Allen, neighbors that actually grew up with
him saw him grow up as a child like David
Yoder or having a hard time taking in that he
is now charged with double murderer David Yoder. What did
you think when you learned that cops have arrested Richard
Allen for the murders of Abby and Libby first starting
(19:03):
on through my minders, No way, No Way, David Yoder
says he is absolutely shocked that a boy he knew
his entire childhood, all the way through growing up and
moving away as an adult, is responsible for such a
gruesome sex attack we believe, and double murder we believe
(19:26):
by knife. I don't know. I have to ask a
shrink Karen Stark about this, but the thought of putting
a knife to a little girl's throat is just it's
it's repulsive. I don't even want to think about it.
But a little digging does reveal a tiny lip. Take
a listen to our friend Max at Fox fifty nine.
Speaker 3 (19:47):
Alan has no criminal history, but Carol County Dispatch records
show he had one encounter with police in twenty fifteen.
The sheriff said it was a domestic issue where Allan
was supposedly drunk and his wife took him to a
lit hospital. No law enforcement action was taken, but deputies
were sent to his del Phi home to quote, keep
the peace.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
Okay, Max a little. So far, the cops haven't come
to our home to keep the peace, and nobody's been
carted off to the emergency room drunk as a skunk?
So what do we know about what happened?
Speaker 8 (20:18):
They were providing a whole lot of clarification about that.
You know, it sounds like there was you know, as
I said, there there was a domestic situation. When I
asked the shriff, who's the domestic station situation between he
wouldn't tell me. So, you know, I am a little
suspect of this, but you know that was But it's
also the only other thing I ever founded him. I mean,
(20:40):
you saw, I went to his hometown, looked through his
criminal background. That's the only thing we found about him.
And it did happen at three o'clock in the morning.
So you know, I'll leave that for you guys to
decide what you want to think about.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
That, and I certainly will I certainly will dis say
that who is up causing a ruck as drunk as
a skunk at three am? That's not good to Fran Longwell,
former Deputy State's Attorney in Calvert County, former Assistant State's
Attorney and Prince George specializing and homicides and other related crimes.
(21:15):
Fran thank you for being with us. What do you
make of this prior arrest the prior arrest.
Speaker 5 (21:19):
I think it shows in my opinion that he does
have some type of violence streak in him.
Speaker 8 (21:25):
But I kind of agree with you.
Speaker 5 (21:27):
Nancy, that this didn't start from zero to what happened
to these little girls. I'm just concerned that we're going
to find other victims, or we're going to find other
other kids that have been abused by this guy.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
Yeah, why are you saying that, Cheryl McCombe. What leads
you to that speculation? But by the way, I agree.
Speaker 6 (21:43):
With you, Well, I mean, again, broad daylight, two victims
with other people around, a victim that clearly has a
cell phone, that is high risk. You're talking about somebody
on the bridge that's, you know, eighty feet behind the
air and has boards missing, and everything he did was
so risky. It tells me that ain't his first rodeo.
(22:06):
And I want to say one more thing. When I was.
Speaker 10 (22:07):
Listening to the neighbors speak, and I think people need
to understand when you look at a case like this
and you're only thinking from your vantage point, you can't
possibly accept.
Speaker 6 (22:17):
It or understand it. But when you talk to criminologists
like you and I, Nancy, we talked probably their throats
were slash, they were posed, they were staged. Things were
probably done there, whether it's a carving or some sort
of ritual if you look at it. If this was
my case, one of the first things I would do
is go to CBS and see if there's a camera
(22:39):
in the girls restaurant.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
Well, that's funny you would say that, because after our
investigating a case in chief, the very next thing I
would do is start looking for similar transactions. But you
said it so much more descriptively than I did. Because
a crime like this that there has got to be
some prior not necessarily Scott Peterson type case where that
(23:02):
is a domestic homicide. He hasn't had another wife to
kill in a case like this. However, these are not
his children, so although he does have a daughter near
their age, that tells me there are very likely other victims.
And I agree with you three hundred percent. Now, what
(23:26):
do we know about a twelve plus hour search of
his home. Something in that home led them to ultimately
arrest the local pharmacists that tech Richard Allen. Take a
listen to our cut eighty three our friends at crime
Online and first our friend Lindsay stone Box fifty nine.
Speaker 11 (23:48):
Richard Allen was not a stranger to this community. Information
uncovered by our RUSSA quaid from sources with knowledge of
the investigation. He even came forward in the early days
of the investigation as a witness from the moment high Bridge,
the day Abbey and Libby were killed in February of
twenty seventeen. Now, at the time, any inquiry did not
reveal the need for further investigation. However, his name surfaced
(24:10):
again recently. A search form was issued at his house
two weeks ago and revealed evidence reportedly linking him to
the deaths.
Speaker 12 (24:18):
Ten days before the arrest of murder suspect Richard Allen,
police officers extensively searched the fifty year old's home. Neighbors
tell the New York Posts the non uniformed officers were
on the property for about twelve hours. During the search
of the property, Allen chairs with his wife.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
Officers were seen.
Speaker 12 (24:34):
Quote snooping a lot around the fire pit and at
the backyard. A neighbor describes quote lots of flashlights, lots
of pictures, lots of sifting unquote in that area. The
source says that it was odd for them to be
in that area, as the Allens were never observed burning things.
The neighbor also said when police arrived at the property,
(24:54):
no one suspected that there would be a.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
Connection to the murders of Living and Abbey. What are
they looking for? What were they looking for? If the
Allens really didn't use the fire pit, then what were
they digging around for? Could have anything to do with
blood evidence and there will be blood evidence marked my words.
Take a listen to our friends at WISH.
Speaker 13 (25:19):
This nine page request for a search warrant filed March
seventeenth of twenty seventeen. Now that's a little more than
a month after Libby Jerman and Abby Williams were found
murdered in Delphi. This disturbing document, for the first time
gives us an investigator's description of the crime scene and
what the suspect may have taken with him. The document,
(25:39):
written by an FBI agent, describes what investigators found when
they discovered the bodies of Abby Williams and Libby German
on February fourteenth. The agent writes a large amount of
blood was lost by the victims at the crime scene.
Because of the nature of the victim's wounds, it is
nearly certain the perpetrator of the crime would have gotten
(26:00):
blood on his person or clothing.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
Straight out to Fox fifty nine's Max Lewis, all of
that together, let's make sense of it. Number one, A
twelve plus hour search of Richard Allen's home. A few
days later, they come back and arrest him. They're digging
around a very unused fire pit with disturbed earth near by.
(26:23):
We know there's blood evidence. And also did you hear
that that he actually came forward as a witness in
the early days of the investigation.
Speaker 8 (26:35):
Yeah, he from what we have heard from our sources.
You know, he you know, walked up and volunteered to
police and said, hey, you know, I was up there.
I didn't really see anything, but you know I can
tell you, you know, whatever you need.
Speaker 9 (26:48):
To know or whatever.
Speaker 8 (26:50):
So, you know, that's sort of another amazing thing. And
he was sort of brushed off and not really given
a whole lot of thought to as far as the
search goes on his house. Yeah, they were neighbors told
us they were searching around there, digging in the backyard,
digging in a fire pit. Makes you wonder what was
in that fire pit? Was he trying to get rid
of something, you know, what was going on back There
(27:13):
so many, so many unanswered questions about this, but it
all doesn't look good.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
I want to circle back to what you just said.
Tell me again. Max Slow is joining us from Fox
fifty nine, who's been on the case from the very
very beginning. You stayed at the in the initial days
of the investigation that Richard Allen went to police and
said I was there and offered himself up as a witness.
Speaker 8 (27:37):
That's right, he was, you know, on he said he
was on the trail that day. And I'm not exactly
sure how the encounter happened if he was, you know,
if police came upon him and started, you know, asking him,
or if he just walked up to them and said, hey,
I was here, didn't see anything. But you know, I
can help you with what you need to know. But
we do know that he was interviewed by police in
(27:58):
the days after Abby and Libby first disappeared and then
were found murdered.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
To Karen started joining me. Renowned psychologists joining us out
of Manhattan at karenstart dot com. That's Karen with the
Sea Karen. He places himself at the scene of the murder.
Scott Peterson did that idiot. He places himself there claiming
he's fishing on Christmas Eve in the cold and the rain,
(28:27):
and then Lacy and Connor's bodies turn up miraculously where
he was fishing, and then in the weeks that followed,
he was tracked back and forth to the San Francisco
Bay looking out over the water. I guess he was
trying to see if their bodies had washed up. But
also it reminds me of Wayne Williams, the Atlanta serial killer.
(28:52):
He was always at the scene of the crime before
anybody else got there, under the guise of being a
stringer for TV stations. He was always there and I
think trying to glean evidence from the police, trying to
get information. Were they on to him? What do you
make of him coming to the scene in the day's
(29:13):
immediately following the gruesome murders of Abby and Libby.
Speaker 8 (29:17):
I'm not the.
Speaker 14 (29:18):
Least surprised, Nancy, because, yes, perhaps looking for evidence, But
the truth is, when you're that kind of person, a psychopath,
capable of doing this without empathy, you are, in many
instances rewiving what happens. He's enjoying. Believe it or not
every moment of this very cunning and manipulative sitting under
(29:42):
posters with his own sketch in the back of him.
And I want to tell you something. You mentioned all
those killers who everyone keeps saying, you know, yeah, I
never would have expected it of him. And that's not surprising,
because that's part of this mo supersticially charming, and they
(30:02):
strike observers as remarkably normal, but they're not normal. Just
the fact that.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
He did that.
Speaker 14 (30:10):
Think about it, he goes, he's the one that the
senseily committed this crime, and he's volunteering. And I think
that very often police forget to look at a person
like this. If they want to be there, they want
to be a part of it. They're getting it thrill
out of reliving it and being a part of the process.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
I don't know if the name Rodney al Kala rings
the bell and Cheryl says, you're jumping in, I'll throw
this to you. He was the Dating Game killer, Rodney
al Kala, and he was so charming, he managed handsome,
the works to some people, not me, but many people.
He was so charming and personal that they put him
(30:52):
on the Dating Game remember that show, and he turned
out to be a cold bloody.
Speaker 5 (30:56):
Killer, cold bloody killer.
Speaker 6 (30:58):
But let's talk about people getting gray shape themselves in
cases Zodiac did it, Zodiac couldn't take it and had
to write them letters. And let's talk about another thing
with Wayne Williams that is identical to this case. Wayne
Williams also burned things, not in a fire pit, but
on his grill. Remember after police, yeah, and FBI came. Okay,
(31:19):
So these are people that the thrill that she mentioned
is absolutely correct. And that's another reason he hasn't maybe
had to repeat the crime yet because he's still living
this one. The family comes into CBS and he has
contact with them, you know, ask him, hey, do you
need anything. Maybe he goes to where Kelsey works. You know,
(31:40):
Kelsey always said she worried about that.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
And that is the victim's sister had contact.
Speaker 6 (31:45):
But I'll tell you something else. I guarantee you he
went to the funeral or the viewing. And I guarantee
you he was a volunteer searcher, whether it was official
or not. I guarantee he was out there.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
Okay. I got a pretty good idea what may have
been burned and that fire pit. Take a listen to
our friend to me Johnson WISHTV.
Speaker 13 (32:05):
Authorities also found that two articles of clothing from one
of the girls was missing from the crime scene, while
the rest of their clothing was recovered. It also appeared
the girl's bodies were moved and staged. The agent goes
on to say, based upon my training and experience, it
is common for perpetrators of this type of crime to
take a souvenir or in some fashion memorialize the crime scene.
(32:29):
The agent also references the video on Libby's phone, confirming
it was forty three seconds long. Up until now, only
a few seconds have been made public.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
That the girls were followed.
Speaker 13 (32:43):
By the suspect on the Monon Highbridge trail, and that
there were no visible signs of a struggle or fight.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
Crime stores with Nancy Grace to this day. Richard Allen
says he's the victim and that there's been a horrible
miscarriage of justice. Another oddity. Immediately after the girls go missing,
Kathy Allen, that's Richard Allen's wife of thirty four very
(33:18):
long years. I'm sure the mother of his daughter, Britney,
wanted to go search for the girls. We learned from
the New book Shadow of the Bridge, the Delphi Murders,
and the Dark Side of the American Heartland, and the
book is by journalist Amy Caine and lawyer Kevin Greenley.
(33:39):
They recount that the wife, Richard Allen's wife wanted to
go search for the girls. A lot of employers were
actually giving employees a day off to go and search
for the girls. Everyone was volunteering. Alan's wife, Kathy, wanted
to go and search, but Alan actively convinced his wife
(34:00):
not to get involved. What was actually said, we don't
know specifically, but we do know it was enough to
keep her from joining in the search. She also had
to convince Richard Allen, her own husband, to tell police
he was on the trails that day. He was reluctant
(34:23):
to call in the tip. Why what more do we know?
Fran Longwell joining US veteran trial lawyer, expertise homicide, What
do you make of that, friend.
Speaker 5 (34:36):
I think that's totally that's natural. I think a lot
of them, a lot of serial killers, for sure, always
seemed to take some kind of souvenir. We had a
case years ago where they were finding bodies along the
Beltway and in areas for shortest County, and years and
years later, death suspect was found. He was able to
(34:58):
draw pictures of each feel what she looked like, and
he had some sulvenir each one of those murders. I
don't think that's unusual. I think that's part of their
excitement of the crime.
Speaker 1 (35:10):
What about it, Karen Stark, New York psychologists joining us
today from Manhattan. What about taking souvenirs, It's very common.
It's like, you know, all those scrapbooks I have of
the twins. I mean, I don't even know how many
I've got Birthday, Christening, Christmas, Thanksgiving, Birthday, just goes on
and on in summer vacation for every year they're fifteen. Karen,
(35:34):
those are my souvenirs.
Speaker 14 (35:36):
But their souvenirs are of the crime, Nancy. They want
to relive it. That's the whole thing is that it's
exciting to them. So two pieces of clothing. I hate
to say this, but I have a feeling it will
be underwear, because they like to do that. To take underwear,
to take some kind of token that they've been there,
(35:57):
that they did is it gives them a really good
sense of themselves. They're powerful, they're aboveve the law and
they got away with them.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
And they're caught dead in the water. Cheryl McCollum. The
evidence would suggest this. What about the theory that the
girls were redressed and that somehow some of their clothing
were interchanged by accident.
Speaker 6 (36:27):
Again, those of us in this business, redressing is something
that occurs.
Speaker 1 (36:32):
I mean, it's something that they have ted Bundy. Oh,
after the person was dead, he had redressed them and
do their hair and makeup, had bathed their bodies in
the pathtub at the house.
Speaker 6 (36:43):
Is what keys did the same thing, make up, hair,
redress them, pose them raiding the girl's hair like polk.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
Yeah, oh gosh, Yeah.
Speaker 6 (36:51):
That's part of their fantasy. They're acting something out. So
a lot of times we focus on the murder, but
it is a sexually generated there's no question about it.
And again his computers, when you know, the superintendent mentioned
the lab so often, the electronic part, the biology, the
tool marks, the voice.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
Analysis, the hares, the fiber, the blood, the blood, the
tool marks which is from a knife.
Speaker 6 (37:20):
But I also think Arsen is going to be a
money tree.
Speaker 1 (37:23):
To doctor Todd m bar now joining us, speaking of blood,
he is a board certified and atomic clinical forensic pathologist
joining us out of Ohio. He's featured in Thin Places
Essays from in Between and you can find them on
Twitter at Todd Barma. That's for medical examiner, doctor bar
(37:44):
Thank you for being with us and waiting for the
build up to the scientists, the medical examiners that ultimately
says there are no eyewitnesses as of yet will make
or break this case. We learned there are copious amounts
of blood at the scene. How is that likely to
(38:05):
have happened?
Speaker 9 (38:06):
Well, Nancy, it seems to me. I know that there's
some speculation that possibly the throats of the victims had
been flashed, and you know, because the carotid arteries are
under such high pressure, there would be a lot of
spatter and disbursement of blood in the process. So you're
absolutely one hundred percent correct. That would be transfer of
(38:28):
that blood evidence not only onto the victim's clothing, but
also onto the perpetrator. So and my thought was, you know,
maybe he even was burying the murder weapon that in
the firepit area, possibly the clothing. And I've worked on
several serial killer cases before, and they do like to
(38:50):
take a trophy from uh, you know, it's in my
my experience that that that these articles that they collect
are basically like a trophy. And I have to also
think to myself that perhaps these people revisiting the case
trying to get involved in the case, there may even
(39:11):
be some notoriety element, like they actually want to be caught.
So I think that, you know, with a twenty million
dollar bond on this gentleman, there's got to be some
significant evidence that they found. I know it's all feeled,
but I'm very much concerned that there are other victims
that play here.
Speaker 1 (39:31):
Wow, that was a lot of information, doctor Todd Barr.
So I'm just digesting everything that you just said. Got
a question. If this is, as we believe, a stabbing death,
I find very very unusual. I would have suspected a
strangling death or some sort of asphyxiation under these circumstances,
(39:53):
But due to the copious amounts of blood too, which
have been eluded in the documents, it leads me to
think that it is in fact a stabbing death. If
there are multiple stab wounds, such as in that Jody
Aria's case where Travis Alexander was stabbed twenty nine plus
times and then shot would you be able to match that.
(40:16):
They're called tool markings, match the wounds up to a
particular knife.
Speaker 15 (40:21):
And if so, how depending on the type of knife
that may have been used. If it was one that
had a serrated edge, you could actually if it if
the tool actually got into the bone in the area
that's that's where the tool marks are found when the
when the blade would pass over the bone, and if
(40:43):
it's serrated, they can actually match up those serrated edges
almost identically to show you know that a specific tool
was used. So if they do have the murder weapon
and they have evidence of serrations on the bone, than
that's very easily dematched up.
Speaker 1 (41:03):
Five years after the murder, right years passed after the
murders before Richard Allen was arrested, a seemingly clerical error
meant the tip, a specific tip fell through the cracks,
but when it resurfaced, Richard Allen was re interviewed and
confirmed he was on the trail and wearing the same
(41:25):
outfit blue jeans and a car heart jacket as the
guy caught on camera by the victims. What more will
be uncovered? What more will be revealed about Richard Allen,
now convicted in the murders of Abby and Libby, their
(41:46):
young lives cut short. Chilling comments he made to his
mom after he murdered the two little girls now coming
to light. Don't worry, there will be an appeal and
wait for justice to unfold. Nancy Grace signing off.
Speaker 8 (42:10):
Mm hmm
Host
Nancy Grace
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