March 3, 2025 • 41 mins
Sheriff’s deputies responded to a home after workers saw bodies through a window when no one answered the door. Gene Hackman, 95, his wife, Betsy Arakawa, 65, and a dog were found dead.
Officers found the front door of Hackman’s two-story, green stucco home slightly ajar, but there were no signs of forced entry. During a search, deputies found all other buildings and the garage of the $3.8 million home locked and secured. The home did not appear to have been rummaged through, and no items were reported missing. An officer noted that nothing appeared "out of place."
According to a search warrant affidavit, officers entering the home saw a bathroom to the left of the front door. The bathroom door was open, and Betsy Arakawa was lying on her right side, deceased. Police said she was wearing dark gray sweatpants and a light-colored sweatshirt. A black space heater was near her head, but the report did not state whether it was on. Officers also saw an open orange prescription bottle with pills scattered on the countertop. A deputy reported obvious signs of death, including body decomposition, facial bloating, and mummification in her hands and feet.
Deputies then saw feet and legs near the kitchen area. They found Gene Hackman dead in the mudroom. He was wearing gray sweatpants, a blue long-sleeve T-shirt, and brown slippers. He had a walking cane and a pair of sunglasses. Hackman showed similar signs of death as his wife.
An autopsy was performed, but initial findings noted no external trauma to either individual. The manner and cause of death have not been determined. The official autopsy and toxicology results are pending.
Joining Nancy Grace:
- Joshua Ritter - Criminal Defense Attorney, Former Prosecutor ND Host of Courtroom Confidential on YouTube; X, Instagram & TikTok: @joshuaritteresq, YouTube: CRConfidential
- Dr. Bethany Marshall - Psychoanalyst, Author: "Deal Breaker;" Featured in Hit Show: "Paris in Love" on Peacock; Instagram & TikTok: drbethanymarshall, X @DrBethanyLive
- Sheryl McCollum - Atlanta Cold Case Investigative Research Institute Founder; Host : Zone 7, X @149Zone7
- Dr. William Morrone - Medical Examiner, Toxicologist, Pathologist, Opioid Treatment Expert, and Author: “American Narcan: Naloxone & Heroin-Fentanyl Associated Mortality”
- Jessica Finn - Senior Investigative Reporter at The U.S. Sun, the-sun.com, jessicafinnnyc (Twitter/ IG) @jessicafinn.bsky.social
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace the gene probe.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Gene Hackman, his wife, and dog dead nine days before
neighbors see the bodies through the window.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for
being with us.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
So I.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
Used to found to a one decease person inside a house.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
At this hour according to law enforcement, the deaths of
Gene Hackman, his wife, and dog suspicious.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
What happened to the oscar winner? Let's go to that
nine to one one call listening.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Hello, I've seen you found to a one decease person
inside a house. There's no address.
Speaker 4 (01:01):
I'm gonna wait for you at the gate.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
I'm gonna wait for you to please send somebody's really quick?
Speaker 4 (01:06):
Are you with a patient? Now?
Speaker 3 (01:09):
Yeah, I'm over at their property. There's no address here,
so I have to meet the denialist or the police whoever,
down at the gatehouse.
Speaker 5 (01:16):
I'll bring them up here.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Curiously, hesitancy to say two dead bodies, but that could
be easily explained with an innocent explanation that the viewer
could only see part of the second dead body.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Let's listen to more.
Speaker 5 (01:32):
A female and the mail probably I don't know, I
don't know. If I's just send somebody up real quick.
Speaker 4 (01:36):
Okay? Are they awake? I have no idea? Are they breathing?
I have no idea.
Speaker 3 (01:44):
I'm not inside the house. It's closed.
Speaker 5 (01:46):
It's a long I go in, but I see the
ladies laying down on a blocker from the window.
Speaker 4 (01:51):
They appeared to be completely their awake. Do they appear
to be awake or alert?
Speaker 6 (01:58):
No?
Speaker 4 (01:58):
No, no, no, no, no, okay, okay do you ever
hear do you hear this talk or cry?
Speaker 7 (02:10):
No?
Speaker 4 (02:10):
No, okay? Are they moving at all?
Speaker 3 (02:17):
No, dude, they're not moving.
Speaker 5 (02:18):
Just sing somebody out here really quick, dude.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Nine only one dispatchers ever bother you because the call
has already said they're two dead people, and the nine
only one dispatch says do they appear to be completely awake?
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Do they appear to be awake or alert? Did you
hear them talk or cry? Are they moving?
Speaker 4 (02:38):
No?
Speaker 1 (02:39):
They're dead.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
We are talking about an oscar winner, Gene Hagman, his
wife and their dog.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
Now how can that all be explained away innocently at
this hour? As we go to air law enforcement?
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Saving the deaths are quote suspicious? Joining me Jessica Finn,
Senior investigative report at the US.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
Son Jessica, thank you for being with us.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Let's just start at the beginning, how the body of
Gene Hackman and his wife and his dog were found.
Speaker 7 (03:09):
Yeah, really wild scene in Santa Fe. You find the
maintenance worker calling nine one one and he is very frantic.
And what's something people don't realize was that there were
actually two different nine one one calls. The first one,
it's a dial to nine one one. The dispatcher picks
up and he says hello, Hello, nine one one, Hello,
and you hear the dog sparking the background. You hear
(03:32):
a man's voice talking, and it just is this very
chaotic scene. And then this guy hangs up the phone,
and then the nine one one dispatcher tries to call
him back again and tries to get the guy back
on the phone, and then there's a second phone call
to nine one one, So it just paints this really,
really hectic picture of what's going on. You hear again
the two living dogs in the background, presumably the Hackman's dogs,
(03:55):
and you hear this maintenance worker just very upset and
very distressed. He's trying to tell the nine one dispatcher
that there are two dead people in the house, and
nine one one is asking the series of questions about
are they breathing like you said, are they talking? And
it's this really strange inquiry from the nine one one dispatcher.
And one of the other interesting things that the maintenance
(04:16):
worker says is, you know, as we know, the Hackmans
were very private people. There were no security cameras at
the house. They were extremely extremely private, And he says
to the dispatcher, there's not an address for the house,
and there's a reason for that, pointing to how private
these two people were and how much they protected their
celebrity status and really kind of wanted to make sure
(04:38):
that people couldn't track them down and kind of were
off the grid, so to speak.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
This is more of what we're learning from the sea.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
We're Oscar winner, Jane Hagman, wife and dog all found dead.
Speaker 8 (04:50):
Listen deputies arrived and gain access to the residents where
they observed missus Aracowa deceased. They continue the search of
their home and located mister Kman in a separate area
of the residence, also deceased. A German shepherd was also
found deceased, and two other dogs who appeared healthy were
(05:11):
located on the property.
Speaker 9 (05:13):
Responding officers find the front door in the glass entry
way of Hackman's two story, green colored Stucke home opened
a jar just a bit, but there did not appear
to be any signs of forced entry. The garage connected
to the three point eight million dollar home appeared to
be locked, and nothing appeared to be out of place.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
The garage locked, the door a jar, nothing stolen, nothing ransacked,
nothing rummaged through, no items taken. Everything appeared in place.
What does it mean? I know at least one expert
has focused on the dog for good reason, joining me
forensic expert, director and founder of the Cold Case Investigative
(05:55):
Research Institute and star of Zone seven podcast, Cheryl mco
Oh them, what about it?
Speaker 10 (06:01):
I would focus on the dog because you're going to
see the pattern of what the Hackmans did. Did they
put the dog in the crate in the morning or
the evening? That would give you a timetable to start
from those patterns. Those habits are really important. The other
thing for me is if you talk about a net
(06:22):
cropcy for the dog or testing for the animal, that's
going to come back quicker than it will for the Hackmans.
We may not know for sure for months what may
or may not have happened to them, but with that animal,
we would know much quicker. So my focus would be.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
On the habit.
Speaker 11 (06:39):
Why do you say that, Cheryl, Because you're not going
to have that many You're going to have many more
people that have to have an autopsy than an animal
that is killed in a situation or died of natural
causes or poison.
Speaker 10 (06:52):
So those tests are going to be able to tell
us much much quicker what might have occurred in that home.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
So you were saying, And the reason we would get
the results back on the dog more quickly the German
shepherd is because.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
There's no line.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
There's not a long line of gerbils and hamsters and
guinea pigs and birds and cats.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
And dogs waiting for an autopsy. Is that your reason
for saying that the dog autopsy will come back quicker?
Speaker 12 (07:17):
Correct?
Speaker 8 (07:18):
It?
Speaker 1 (07:18):
Got it?
Speaker 2 (07:19):
Joining me to follow up on that is renowned medical examiner, toxicologist, pathologist,
opioid treatment expert, and author of American Narcan doctor William Moroney.
Doctor Moroney, thank you for being with us and taking
your time away from what you do every day for
(07:40):
all of us, doctor Moroney, with the door, ajar, would
that rule out carbon monoxide.
Speaker 12 (07:49):
In any normal case? The answer is yes, because carbon
monoxide has to concentrate. Can't concentrate with the door open,
doctor Moroney.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
What would be found typically when bodies when someone dies
of carbon monoxide? And then I want to follow up
with you with the fact that both Hackman and his
wife were mummified to a degree. But first the carbon monoxide.
Speaker 12 (08:14):
Well, in carbon monoxide, the skin is bright red. Now,
that may be complicated because they were mummified, but the
appearance of the skin and the color of the deceased
is the take home point. And the fire department does
not enter a building without running a carbon monoxide meter,
(08:38):
so they would know that because when they enter then
they would have to use a self contained breathing apparatus.
So that's the carbon monoideques.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
Well, you're going so fast out to Maroney for regular
lay people like myself. First of all, why with the
victim's face. The victim's faces be red due to carbon
monoxide poisoning, that's a surefire giveaway.
Speaker 12 (09:04):
But why because the chemistry of carbon monoxide versus the
chemistry of hemoglobin. It's how things work. Hemoglobin allows you
to transfer oxygen back and forth carbon monoxide. It's just
the color of blood with carbon monoxide in the skin.
(09:25):
It doesn't change, and the carbon monoxide molecule permanently sits
in the receptor site on the hemoglobin, whereas oxygen moves
on and off easily. It's always a red color because
that's the chemistry of carbon monoxide.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
I want everyone on the panel to hear what more
we know. Listen.
Speaker 9 (09:48):
Walking in the front door, officers see a bathroom to
the left of the front door that's lying on her
right side dead. She is wearing dark gray sweatpants and
a light colored sweatshirt. Next to the body is a
black space heater near her head, but the report doesn't
say if it was on. An open orange prescription bottle
with pills scattered on the countertop. There are obvious signs
(10:10):
of death, body decomposition, bloating in her face, and mummification
in both hands and feet. As deputies continued, they see
feet and legs near the kitchen area. Gene Hackman is
found dead in the mudroom wearing gray sweatpants, a blue
long sleeved t shirt, brown slippers, has a walking cane
and a pair of sunglasses. Hackman also showed obvious signs
(10:32):
of death.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
Too, Jessica Fann joining US investigative reporter with the US
sign we're both bodies partially mummified and are we sure.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
That door was a jar?
Speaker 7 (10:43):
Yeah, so both both bodies were absolutely partially mummified. Really
gruesome scene that police ended up coming upon at the house.
At the residence, and you know, we from what we understand,
the back door was a jar. It seems like it
could have potentially police theorize been a jar to allow
the dogs to come in and out of the residence freely.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
We don't know that for sure.
Speaker 7 (11:08):
There's different reports about the front door. The maintenance worker
initially says in his nine to one to one call
that the front door is locked. When the police get there,
the police say that the front door was not locked.
So we don't know exactly the situation with the front door,
but we do know that the back door absolutely was
not only unlocked, but it was open and dogs seemed
to be coming in and out of the home freely.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
Very very curious, And I'm going to follow up in
a moment with Cheryl McCollum regarding that door, Ajar. We've
seen that before when pets were involved. Okay to doctor
William Maroney. A lot to break down right there, doctor Moroney.
First of all, mummification, what is it now? We believe
(11:50):
and I'll get into this too.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
There's just so much, so.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Many scientific evidence. Is what it's called in the law
regarding for instance, the pacemaker. How long had it not
been working? And what does that mean? There's a lot
to do with this pacemaker. What I'm getting at, Morony,
is a timeline. Can you talk to me about what
is mummification and how would that happen that quickly? I mean,
(12:13):
I would expect if they have been dead nine days
as we are told, based on a lot of different
circumstantial evidence, extrinsic evidence. I'm very surprised their bodies aren't
in decomp as opposed to mummification.
Speaker 12 (12:30):
There's two words that lead us to understand mummification New Mexico.
This is totally different than a body dying in Iowa,
Connecticut or Wyoming. Bodies desiccate in these kind of environments
(12:50):
much faster.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
And is that do I have to tell you again,
doctor Moroney?
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Desicate, I'll speak, thank you, yes, and I will take that,
not in a bad way.
Speaker 12 (13:04):
Dummy down for me, It's look in any other environment.
Mummification is a general principle that follows. Nobody goes to
the bloating, the bloating around the face, the bloating around
the center chest and the torso. Limbs mummifi faster limbs
(13:26):
don't usually bloat up with gas. I see it all
the time on scenes mummification if somebody's been down a week.
But New Mexico, those are the key words. Is why
this went through mummification so fast. Air condition, outdoors, whatever
the conditions are New Mexico mummification. Drying is really a
(13:50):
big part of this.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
So you're saying mummification what happened much more quickly in
New Mexico as opposed to let's just say Manhattan bingo. Yes,
because of the dry air and the temperature. Correct correct, Okay,
doctor moroney. How can there be bloating and modification?
Speaker 12 (14:07):
Okay, because the bloating comes from gas. There's gas. There's
bacteria in your body, in your bowels, in your stomach,
in your lungs. There's a normal, healthy group of bacteria
that lives in you.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
And as soon as you stop dying.
Speaker 12 (14:28):
The life cycle of that bacteria is unopposed and it
gives off gas. Ordinarily, you swallow them and they pass
in your stool, you cough, you blow them out of
your nose. Bacteria is a very important part of the body,
and when the body no longer can cleanse itself or
reestablish fresh new young bacteria, old bacteria and decay cause
(14:54):
the body to bloat. These are very specific gases related
to decomposition, but the process of bloating is very very common.
It's just that you bloat and you dry in different
places at different times, and arms and legs are where
you mummify. First, Nobody said anything about maggots. That's very
(15:20):
interesting because blowflies and maggots would allow you more time
to actually stage when they died. Nobody's talking about maggots.
That's very interesting. That says to me that the house
was sealed and it wasn't as open because flies come
(15:42):
in anywhere, and when they plant their eggs, they plant
them in the eyes, they plant them in the nose,
they plant them in the mouth, and they go to
other body parts like the rectum, and they multiply as maggots.
Nobody's talking about maggots. That's really important here too.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
Darthian Maroney, need to understand what you're saying.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
It is forensic etymology, the study of bugs insects as
it relates to crime, specifically dead bodies.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
So let me understand, doctor Moroney.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
For maggots to appear on a dead body, that body
must be exposed in some way.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
To the outdoors.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
So the outdoor, the fly has to come in to
the residents to get to the body, right right, okay,
And even if there are no flies in the area,
as soon as a body as someone dies, they come.
I don't know that I'm not an etymologist, but they
show up in all sorts of weather conditions.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
So you're saying, this is really interesting.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
Many people believe that with a dead body magots just
originate from the body.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
That's not true.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
The fly has to the insect. The adult insect has
to appear and then lay eggs, hence maggots. And you're saying, because.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
There weren't on that door, must not have been a
jar the entire time.
Speaker 12 (17:16):
Field. Yes, And I think it's it's key that they
don't talk about maggots in any other case where anybody
dies outdoors, you always bring in a forensic entomologist, and
the maggots help you apply a timeline. Maggots are on
the body the first hour it dies outdoors, so if
(17:37):
you don't have any maggots at all, then there were
never any openings for windows or doors the whole time
this was going on, and the mummification comes from the
air conditioning.
Speaker 9 (17:49):
Hagmann's daughter, Leslie tells reporters that she hadn't seen her
father or stepmother in a few months since she lives
in California. As far as talking to her dad, she
said it all have been a couple of months, but
she adds they were close. She says everything seemed normal
and good. Her father was in good shape, doing pilates
and yoga multiple times a week.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
For our alert, I have no idea.
Speaker 3 (18:14):
I'm not inside the house.
Speaker 5 (18:15):
It closed as long as I can't go in, but
I see that lab she's laying down on a blog
from the windows a female and email. Probably I don't know.
Speaker 4 (18:25):
I don't know if I's seen.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
Somebody question what do we know about the death of
Gene Hackman, his wife and dog. At this hour, law
enforcement still saying that the deaths are suspicious, not ruling
it accident, not ruling it suicide, and now we're learning
carbon monoxide very unlikely. Of course, theories emerge after Randy
(18:50):
Quaid claims Gene Hackman and his wife were murdered. Quaid
shared his theory, calling on news agencies to stop talking
about the films he is in. This is how they
get away with murdering famous people. To doctor Bethany Marshall
joining me, a renownced psychoanalysis out of the LA jurisdiction
author of deal Breaker. You can find her at doctor
Bethany Marshall dot com. You can also see her on
(19:12):
Peacock Now, doctor Bethany Now. Murder theories are abounding, and
part of that reason is because we're not hearing it
was suicide for obvious reasons.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
We're not hearing it was accident.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
But yet there was no break in, no forced entry apparent,
and we can't find anything missing from the home. So
naturally people start thinking murder.
Speaker 6 (19:40):
That's right, Nancy, But there's so many other things that
could have taken place. And what I would be mostly
concerned about, just from a behavioral perspective, is did this
couple have any negative large events looming in their life?
Like a cancer diagnosis not able to be a mortgage.
I know that sounds strange, but take that into account.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
Why was there a.
Speaker 6 (20:02):
Two month break in talking to Jean Kackman's daughter, Because
older couples are much more safe when they are in
contact with their families. Were their bills that weren't paid?
Was the door typically blocked open? Was there a caregiver
or somebody who came in and out of the house.
Was there an accountant who paid their bills?
Speaker 1 (20:23):
How was their food prepared?
Speaker 2 (20:30):
Crime stories with Nancy Grace. Back to Jessica Finn joining us,
a chief investigative reporter with the US SON.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
I get it.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
If it's not suicide and it's not natural cause, then
naturally people are going to look at the possibility of murder,
and so far law enforcement is calling it suspicious. I mean, Jessica, listen.
Speaker 8 (20:56):
To this from the search warm two green and color
cell phones, two bottles of medication, one bottle of over
the counter tilean on my request, medical records, and a
twenty twenty five monthly planner calendar. Mister Hackman and miss
(21:18):
Arikawa were transported to the office of the Medical Investigator.
An autopsy was performed initial findings noted no external trauma
to either individual. The manner and cause of death has
not been determined. The official results of the autopsy and
toxicology reports are pending.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
Is that correct, Jessica, No external trauma.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
That means no gunshot wound, no stabbing, no obvious size
of ligature or manual strangulation, no bludgeoning.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
Correct. Correct.
Speaker 7 (21:50):
I mean, it's definitely a suspicious case and there's no
clear trauma to the body. What we do know is
that investigator has found several types of pill, thyroid medication,
blood pressure medication, and over the counter.
Speaker 4 (22:04):
Tile and all.
Speaker 7 (22:05):
One of the things that's being reported right now from
the New York Times is that the pills that were
found near Betsy's body are still unidentified, so we don't
quite know why those pills that were scattered, what those
pills that were scattered on the countertop necessarily were. And
we know that these two were found in separate rooms.
Gene appeared to have been found in what would be
(22:28):
the homes and mudroom, with his cane nearby and his
sunglasses nearby, looking as if he had just simply fallen,
whereas She's appeared to have possibly fallen and knocked over
a space heater on her way down in the bathroom.
But we just don't have the answer as yet. We
don't understand why both of these people were found dead.
(22:48):
And definitely it appears that they were found they had
passed at least in the last couple of weeks, because
people had seen them three weeks ago in the neighborhood.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
Doctor William Moroney joining us for now Medical examiner lightning
around this is a yes, no, Can you die of
a thyroid overdose thyroid medicine?
Speaker 12 (23:07):
Not that fast? Yes, not that fast?
Speaker 2 (23:09):
Okay, what about blood pressure mads? Can you die of
an od on? Blood pressure mads?
Speaker 12 (23:14):
That blood pressure medicine specifically is known as a calcium
channel blocker. One of the things it does is it
slows the heart rate. If you took too much, it
would stop your heart.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
But wouldn't that show up in the autopsy.
Speaker 12 (23:31):
No, Well, see the problem with the autopsy and things
like that is they have a predetermined panel of illegal
drugs they looked at. They might have to send out
dilthiasm toxicology to somebody else because for the same reason
that the animal toxicology and autopsies are done faster. I
(23:56):
don't know that any medical examiner can give you a
fast level of del tiasm levels. Diacetyl dl tiism would
be the metabolite, and you'd look at both of them
to see if it was an acute like took a
handful of and died, or whether we were just taking
too much. You've forgotten it slowed your heart rate. It's
(24:17):
a calcium channel blocker.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
I would require.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
But Joshua Ritter joining me, a high profile criminal defense
attorney and former prosecutor, star of Courtroom Confidential on YouTube, Joshua,
it's not working. Everything he just said Ronie is correct,
but you would have to assume that she the wife, Betsy,
decided to o D on BP blood pressure appeals. Then
(24:45):
he oded on blood pressure peals in a different area,
fully closed, looking like he was about to walk out
the door, and the dog they forest fed the.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
Dog blood pressure medication.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
I'm just it doesn't fit this scenario, josh rit Er,
I understand why the murder theories are taking root.
Speaker 13 (25:06):
No, absolutely none of it seems to add up because
you have two people who seem to have collapsed where
they stood. That's my biggest problem is it's not like
they were. One of them was lying in bed or
sitting on a chair. They literally seem to have been
standing and then collapsed on the floor and were found
where they stood. And it seems I think it's safe
to assume in surmise that it happened close in time
(25:28):
to each other, because neither one of them called nine
to one one for assistance on the other person. So
you've got to assume you've now got two people who
collapse where they stood close in time to each other,
if not at the same time. To me, that's absolutely suspicious.
You have to look into that. I think you have
to do exactly what law enforcement is doing, getting search warrants,
starting to gather information, not jumping to any kind of conclusions,
(25:53):
because do these types of things happen where two people
might collapse close in time to each other. I'm sure
that they may have happened before in the past, But
to assume that that's exactly what happened here and it
was either like you said, natural causes or or some
sort of accident, I think would be a mistake at
this point in the investigation.
Speaker 3 (26:15):
Hello, money, I think we just found to a one
defase person inside the house. But this year there's no address.
Speaker 4 (26:25):
I'm gonna wait for you at the gate.
Speaker 3 (26:27):
I'm gonna wait for you, please, And.
Speaker 4 (26:28):
Somebody's really quick, are you with a pais now? Yeah?
Their property. There's no address here.
Speaker 5 (26:36):
So I have to meet the denialists or the police
whoever down at the gatehouse.
Speaker 3 (26:40):
I'll bring them up here.
Speaker 5 (26:46):
Know you're like, all, no, they're not moving.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
Just bring nobody up here really quick, And in the
less hours we learn obvious possible cause of death has
been ruled out.
Speaker 8 (27:05):
Both individuals tested negative for carbon monoxide. An initial interrogation
was conducted of mister Hackman's pacemaker. This revealed that his
nasty event was recorded on February seventeenth, twenty twenty five.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
Doctor William Ronney, What does that mean his last event?
You mean, for instance, the last time the pacemaker was on, No.
Speaker 12 (27:30):
The last time the pacemaker interacted with his heart. His
heart was monitored by the pacemaker. And what that says
to me? Once you die, the pacemaker continues to send spikes,
but the heart no longer responds. There is no event
(27:50):
that the heart is responding to, and they see when
that is. So that would be like the traditional all
American heart attack happened on that day, and after that event,
the heart no longer was beating. That's the event he's
talking about.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
Okay, Cheryl McCollum and joining US coll Case Investigative Research Institute.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
Cheryl, my first thought was carbon.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
Monoxide, but then when I heard the door was a jar,
in my mind, that ruled out carbon monoxide.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
And the fact that the dog is dead too, to me,
that rules out accident.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
Because you want me to think Gene Hackman had an
accident and died, then his wife had an accident and died,
and then the dog had an accident and died.
Speaker 10 (28:40):
No, agreed. So what we would do in this situation
is look at what is there and what's not there.
Some of the things that aren't there, there's no blood,
there's no weapon, there's no shellcasing, there's no sign of
a struggle. Nothing of value is missing. There's no note.
Most importantly, there was.
Speaker 12 (28:59):
Not a now one one call that came from.
Speaker 10 (29:01):
Inside that residence for help. So whatever transpired, it does
seem happen very quickly. Again, it's going to go back
to patterns.
Speaker 7 (29:10):
You have two.
Speaker 10 (29:11):
Animals that were not in a crate that survives. Why
was the one in the crate. People that are close
to them may be able to tell law enforcement the
German Shepherd is put in the crate. When you know,
mister Hackman goes for a walk, he had sunglasses and.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
A cane and was dressed. Perhaps he was.
Speaker 10 (29:28):
Headed outside when either he fail or whatever occurred happened.
But that's the kind of thing you're going to run
into is two almost parallel investigations. You're going to look
at what happened to mister Hackman and what happened to
his wife, and you would almost do two separate investigations there.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
You're absolutely correct, two separate investigations. And where're learning, according
to law enforcement, that they can't determine who died first,
which could be critical into solving the mystery of Gene
Heickman's death.
Speaker 8 (30:00):
Listen, that's a very hard thing to determine. Even with
the assistance of Omi. We asked that question because that's
a question that we want answered. That's a very hard
determination to make, and I don't think even Ohmi could
make that determination based on the initial autopsy.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
What about it, doctor Moroni? Determining who died first, it's.
Speaker 12 (30:18):
Impossible, you know what time he died, you don't have
a timeline for when she died and how it happened
two separate investigations. Then you can't determine who was first
unless there was security cameras, and there's no security cameras.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
Well, wait a minute, hold on morony.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
Isn't it true if one of them died substantially significantly
before the other, the degree of decomposition would be different.
Speaker 12 (30:48):
It would have to be a good full half day
or full day before. You can't really tell a couple hours,
But if it was like a full half.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
Day before, crime stores with Nancy Grace, Dude, Jessica Finn
joining us seeing your vestcative reporter us son, where were
the other two dogs?
Speaker 4 (31:16):
Do we know?
Speaker 12 (31:17):
You know?
Speaker 7 (31:17):
From the nine to one one calls, we hear the
dogs barking in the background. We're, of course assuming that
those were the hackman's dogs. We don't know where they
were found.
Speaker 1 (31:25):
But the way the nine on one calls play out,
it sounds.
Speaker 7 (31:28):
Like they're just kind of roaming around on the property.
It doesn't seem like they're inside anywhere. It just seems
like they're kind of like free wheeling outside. From just
from the way the ninmal one calls are the way
that echoing of the dogs barking in the background can
be heard.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
Now we hear the Santa Fe County share of Adam
and Dooza stating he's trying to create a reverse timeline again.
Speaker 8 (31:52):
That'll be part of our investigation. We will look and
try to gain access to the cell phones. We'll be
analyzing cell phone data, phone calls, text messages, events, photos
in the cell phone to try to piece a timeline together.
One of the things is in an investigation is we
tried a piece of timeline together, usually before the event happens,
(32:13):
and that gives us a lot of information. But in
this case, it seems like we're doing a reverse timeline.
We're doing a timeline from the time of death and
the autopsy and the results, and we're going to start
working our way backwards. We're going to do both and
then hopefully make a determination what may have happened to
both the individuals.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
Okay, a reverse timeline based on digital what does that mean?
Looking at cell phone data, computer data? Who were they
speaking to when? What were they looking up on Google?
When's the last time they logged in or made a
phone call? Not only that when was the last time
people call them and they didn't pick up. There's more
(32:50):
too it, Cheryl McCollum, think.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
Back, dare I bring his name up?
Speaker 2 (32:54):
Conjure him? Alex Murdog. The digital data in that case
was overwhelming. As a matter of fact, I believe that's
how the state finally proved Murdod guilty of double murder
and the deaths of his wife Maggie and son Paul.
The cell phone data compared with the geopositioning and the
nav system in his suburban really nailed his coffin. So
(33:20):
what do you make of the fact that they're making
a reverse timeline, Cheryl? And also they have seies pursua
to Warren. Of course their daytime planners. What does that
tell you they're looking at So.
Speaker 10 (33:36):
They're going to take that planner and they're going to
cross check it with what was looked at on the phone, dates, calls, appointments,
any future event they had that the person that actually
found them was somebody owned the property doing work that
would be in their planner. So they're going to look
at all that to make sure everything lines up and
coincides with what they know the Hackmans were doing. The
(34:00):
weeks before in what they had planned week after.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
Well, you know, Josh Ritter, you and I've tried on
different sides of the fence, of course, many many homicide cases,
and I look at planners to determine did they have
plans in the future. In other words, when people have
plans in the future, they don't usually commit suicide. If
they're looking forward to something like my twins spring break.
I'm looking forward to that. Okay, that's just an example.
(34:25):
But also for forensic reasons, for proative reasons, you look
to see who's the last person there the day that
his pacemaker stopped working, what were they doing, who was
in the home, what was happening. That's why they're looking
at the planner.
Speaker 1 (34:43):
Josh.
Speaker 13 (34:43):
Absolutely, they're trying to reconstruct the events leading up to it.
And to your point too, are there events, are there
appointments in the future, and if so, does that show
planning for the future, which you might be able to
rule that suicide. But did they missappointments that know one
noticed and should those people have noticed? Do they have
an appointment with someone and that person they didn't meet
(35:06):
that appointment with that person, and that person didn't alert
anyone or didn't seem bothered by the fact that they
missed this event. So I think they the planner can
be a treasure tros of information as far as they're
not only their mundane day to day life, but also
the events that they had planned before and after and
what that might provide some insight into this investigation.
Speaker 8 (35:29):
So, you know, I respect the mister Hackman's and Miss
aracauas regard for privacy. I think everybody here understands that
they were very private individuals and a very private family.
There is no surveillance as we know of right now
in the interior of the residence or the exterior of
the residence that is going to help us determine our
time nine or events that happened.
Speaker 2 (35:51):
Now was Santa Fe County Sheriff speaking Mendoza, What does
that mean to me? No surveillance, No surveillance, And let
me clarify that, Cheryl McCollum. There's no home surveillance in
the home of a multi time.
Speaker 1 (36:09):
Oscar winner Rick, No surveillance.
Speaker 2 (36:12):
Hence the theories of murder and or suicide are abounding.
To Jessica Finn, carbon monoxide and I've got a huge
list of celebs and others that die of carbon monoxide
has been ruled out. The levels tested in the autopsy
prove it wasn't CM. That was everyone's first thought. That's
(36:36):
been put to bed. No one sees suicide either. It's
just doesn't make sense that they would both commit suicide
in different rooms with no suicide note falling like that,
appearing as if they had fallen. I mean, hold on,
doctor William Moroney, the method and assessment of suicide is
(36:57):
not consistent with the way these bodies were found.
Speaker 12 (37:00):
No suicide usually means there's some kind of preparation. It
doesn't always mean a note, but it means somebody's taken
time to send a message and organize clothes, pills. They
look nice. There's text messages and other communications would give
(37:21):
you a clue that suicide is a possibility, and that
usually follows treatment resistent depression. That we don't have any
sign that these people have major depressive disorders, not at all.
Speaker 1 (37:34):
As a matter of fact, Jessica Finn, the us son.
Speaker 2 (37:38):
The daughter says that her dad was actually doing great,
doing pilates and yoga multiple times a week. They were
going out to dinner with friends. Nothing suggests to suicide.
Speaker 7 (37:51):
Yeah, Gene and his wife really took care of their health.
They were really active in the community. She made sure
that he was in top notch shape. He was doing
plot is, like you said, staying fit. The whole investigation
gives us more questions than there are answers. I mean,
for both of these people to have died and they
(38:11):
looked like they dropped where they were standing in two
separate places in the home, you know, we can't figure
out whether this was what kind of foul play that
the police are investigating at this moment. But yeah, it
certainly is a conundrum. It doesn't seem like these people
were in distress together and they were very much in
love from what we've heard.
Speaker 8 (38:30):
No, I don't think, you know, there was any indication
that that. Again, there was no trauma indicated on the body.
I'm assuming if they would have fell or you know,
injured themselves or head injury or brain injury, that would
have been discovered by that pathologist. So I'm going to
say that they weren't so too.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
Doctor Bethany Marshall, there's no indication this was an accident.
You just heard the Santa Fe sheriff say that, and Plus,
if one had an accident, what the other has an
accident and the dog has an accident. That doesn't make sense.
We're not getting that the dogs starved, nothing like that.
So the sheriff is saying, no accident, there's no carbon monoxide.
(39:11):
Let's deal with suicide, because I don't see suicide either.
Speaker 6 (39:14):
I don't see suicide either, And that's why I asked earlier,
was that there's some catastrophic event looming in their lives
which would would make them want not want to live.
You know, Nancy, there's an untold story here that I'm
very curious about, and that is, even though he was
well and doing pilates and taking walks, had she become
his caregiver. I do to treat couples in my practice
(39:37):
where one partner is ill and the other one is
the caregiver, and especially when it's a family member, they
typically refuse respite care, meaning they don't want other people.
Speaker 12 (39:46):
To come and help.
Speaker 6 (39:47):
They want to provide the primary care because they love
their family member, and the caregiver's health typically breaks down
over time. In fact, statistically we know that there's a
greater life likelihood of a caregiver dying. We maturely when
they are taking care of a family member. So had
her health been breaking down, and in that case, doctor's
(40:09):
records and also looking at that day planner and seeing
how many appointments was she going to, how many appointments
was was she taking him?
Speaker 2 (40:17):
Dr Bethany, everything you're saying is correct. However, friends that
just just went out with them say that they were happy, healthy,
doing really well, giving no sign that his wife, Betsy
was on the decline. As a matter of fact, she
had devoted herself to him. I'm just not seeing suicide, So,
(40:39):
Doctor William Roney, there are only so many CODs cause
of death. You've got suicide ruled out, there's no trauma,
there's no OD. You've got carbon monoxide ruled out here,
the sheriff ruling out accident. All that's left is what murder,
homicide and unexplained.
Speaker 12 (41:01):
Yes, number one homicide, number two, accident, number three natural,
number four suicide, and number five would be indetermined. That's
our five pauses.
Speaker 1 (41:18):
We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace signing off, goodbye friend.
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace the gene probe.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Gene Hackman, his wife, and dog dead nine days before
neighbors see the bodies through the window.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for
being with us.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
So I.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
Used to found to a one decease person inside a house.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
At this hour according to law enforcement, the deaths of
Gene Hackman, his wife, and dog suspicious.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
What happened to the oscar winner? Let's go to that
nine to one one call listening.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Hello, I've seen you found to a one decease person
inside a house. There's no address.
Speaker 4 (01:01):
I'm gonna wait for you at the gate.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
I'm gonna wait for you to please send somebody's really quick?
Speaker 4 (01:06):
Are you with a patient? Now?
Speaker 3 (01:09):
Yeah, I'm over at their property. There's no address here,
so I have to meet the denialist or the police whoever,
down at the gatehouse.
Speaker 5 (01:16):
I'll bring them up here.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Curiously, hesitancy to say two dead bodies, but that could
be easily explained with an innocent explanation that the viewer
could only see part of the second dead body.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Let's listen to more.
Speaker 5 (01:32):
A female and the mail probably I don't know, I
don't know. If I's just send somebody up real quick.
Speaker 4 (01:36):
Okay? Are they awake? I have no idea? Are they breathing?
I have no idea.
Speaker 3 (01:44):
I'm not inside the house. It's closed.
Speaker 5 (01:46):
It's a long I go in, but I see the
ladies laying down on a blocker from the window.
Speaker 4 (01:51):
They appeared to be completely their awake. Do they appear
to be awake or alert?
Speaker 6 (01:58):
No?
Speaker 4 (01:58):
No, no, no, no, no, okay, okay do you ever
hear do you hear this talk or cry?
Speaker 7 (02:10):
No?
Speaker 4 (02:10):
No, okay? Are they moving at all?
Speaker 3 (02:17):
No, dude, they're not moving.
Speaker 5 (02:18):
Just sing somebody out here really quick, dude.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Nine only one dispatchers ever bother you because the call
has already said they're two dead people, and the nine
only one dispatch says do they appear to be completely awake?
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Do they appear to be awake or alert? Did you
hear them talk or cry? Are they moving?
Speaker 4 (02:38):
No?
Speaker 1 (02:39):
They're dead.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
We are talking about an oscar winner, Gene Hagman, his
wife and their dog.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
Now how can that all be explained away innocently at
this hour? As we go to air law enforcement?
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Saving the deaths are quote suspicious? Joining me Jessica Finn,
Senior investigative report at the US.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
Son Jessica, thank you for being with us.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Let's just start at the beginning, how the body of
Gene Hackman and his wife and his dog were found.
Speaker 7 (03:09):
Yeah, really wild scene in Santa Fe. You find the
maintenance worker calling nine one one and he is very frantic.
And what's something people don't realize was that there were
actually two different nine one one calls. The first one,
it's a dial to nine one one. The dispatcher picks
up and he says hello, Hello, nine one one, Hello,
and you hear the dog sparking the background. You hear
(03:32):
a man's voice talking, and it just is this very
chaotic scene. And then this guy hangs up the phone,
and then the nine one one dispatcher tries to call
him back again and tries to get the guy back
on the phone, and then there's a second phone call
to nine one one, So it just paints this really,
really hectic picture of what's going on. You hear again
the two living dogs in the background, presumably the Hackman's dogs,
(03:55):
and you hear this maintenance worker just very upset and
very distressed. He's trying to tell the nine one dispatcher
that there are two dead people in the house, and
nine one one is asking the series of questions about
are they breathing like you said, are they talking? And
it's this really strange inquiry from the nine one one dispatcher.
And one of the other interesting things that the maintenance
(04:16):
worker says is, you know, as we know, the Hackmans
were very private people. There were no security cameras at
the house. They were extremely extremely private, And he says
to the dispatcher, there's not an address for the house,
and there's a reason for that, pointing to how private
these two people were and how much they protected their
celebrity status and really kind of wanted to make sure
(04:38):
that people couldn't track them down and kind of were
off the grid, so to speak.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
This is more of what we're learning from the sea.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
We're Oscar winner, Jane Hagman, wife and dog all found dead.
Speaker 8 (04:50):
Listen deputies arrived and gain access to the residents where
they observed missus Aracowa deceased. They continue the search of
their home and located mister Kman in a separate area
of the residence, also deceased. A German shepherd was also
found deceased, and two other dogs who appeared healthy were
(05:11):
located on the property.
Speaker 9 (05:13):
Responding officers find the front door in the glass entry
way of Hackman's two story, green colored Stucke home opened
a jar just a bit, but there did not appear
to be any signs of forced entry. The garage connected
to the three point eight million dollar home appeared to
be locked, and nothing appeared to be out of place.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
The garage locked, the door a jar, nothing stolen, nothing ransacked,
nothing rummaged through, no items taken. Everything appeared in place.
What does it mean? I know at least one expert
has focused on the dog for good reason, joining me
forensic expert, director and founder of the Cold Case Investigative
(05:55):
Research Institute and star of Zone seven podcast, Cheryl mco
Oh them, what about it?
Speaker 10 (06:01):
I would focus on the dog because you're going to
see the pattern of what the Hackmans did. Did they
put the dog in the crate in the morning or
the evening? That would give you a timetable to start
from those patterns. Those habits are really important. The other
thing for me is if you talk about a net
(06:22):
cropcy for the dog or testing for the animal, that's
going to come back quicker than it will for the Hackmans.
We may not know for sure for months what may
or may not have happened to them, but with that animal,
we would know much quicker. So my focus would be.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
On the habit.
Speaker 11 (06:39):
Why do you say that, Cheryl, Because you're not going
to have that many You're going to have many more
people that have to have an autopsy than an animal
that is killed in a situation or died of natural
causes or poison.
Speaker 10 (06:52):
So those tests are going to be able to tell
us much much quicker what might have occurred in that home.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
So you were saying, And the reason we would get
the results back on the dog more quickly the German
shepherd is because.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
There's no line.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
There's not a long line of gerbils and hamsters and
guinea pigs and birds and cats.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
And dogs waiting for an autopsy. Is that your reason
for saying that the dog autopsy will come back quicker?
Speaker 12 (07:17):
Correct?
Speaker 8 (07:18):
It?
Speaker 1 (07:18):
Got it?
Speaker 2 (07:19):
Joining me to follow up on that is renowned medical examiner, toxicologist, pathologist,
opioid treatment expert, and author of American Narcan doctor William Moroney.
Doctor Moroney, thank you for being with us and taking
your time away from what you do every day for
(07:40):
all of us, doctor Moroney, with the door, ajar, would
that rule out carbon monoxide.
Speaker 12 (07:49):
In any normal case? The answer is yes, because carbon
monoxide has to concentrate. Can't concentrate with the door open,
doctor Moroney.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
What would be found typically when bodies when someone dies
of carbon monoxide? And then I want to follow up
with you with the fact that both Hackman and his
wife were mummified to a degree. But first the carbon monoxide.
Speaker 12 (08:14):
Well, in carbon monoxide, the skin is bright red. Now,
that may be complicated because they were mummified, but the
appearance of the skin and the color of the deceased
is the take home point. And the fire department does
not enter a building without running a carbon monoxide meter,
(08:38):
so they would know that because when they enter then
they would have to use a self contained breathing apparatus.
So that's the carbon monoideques.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
Well, you're going so fast out to Maroney for regular
lay people like myself. First of all, why with the
victim's face. The victim's faces be red due to carbon
monoxide poisoning, that's a surefire giveaway.
Speaker 12 (09:04):
But why because the chemistry of carbon monoxide versus the
chemistry of hemoglobin. It's how things work. Hemoglobin allows you
to transfer oxygen back and forth carbon monoxide. It's just
the color of blood with carbon monoxide in the skin.
(09:25):
It doesn't change, and the carbon monoxide molecule permanently sits
in the receptor site on the hemoglobin, whereas oxygen moves
on and off easily. It's always a red color because
that's the chemistry of carbon monoxide.
Speaker 1 (09:43):
I want everyone on the panel to hear what more
we know. Listen.
Speaker 9 (09:48):
Walking in the front door, officers see a bathroom to
the left of the front door that's lying on her
right side dead. She is wearing dark gray sweatpants and
a light colored sweatshirt. Next to the body is a
black space heater near her head, but the report doesn't
say if it was on. An open orange prescription bottle
with pills scattered on the countertop. There are obvious signs
(10:10):
of death, body decomposition, bloating in her face, and mummification
in both hands and feet. As deputies continued, they see
feet and legs near the kitchen area. Gene Hackman is
found dead in the mudroom wearing gray sweatpants, a blue
long sleeved t shirt, brown slippers, has a walking cane
and a pair of sunglasses. Hackman also showed obvious signs
(10:32):
of death.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
Too, Jessica Fann joining US investigative reporter with the US
sign we're both bodies partially mummified and are we sure.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
That door was a jar?
Speaker 7 (10:43):
Yeah, so both both bodies were absolutely partially mummified. Really
gruesome scene that police ended up coming upon at the house.
At the residence, and you know, we from what we understand,
the back door was a jar. It seems like it
could have potentially police theorize been a jar to allow
the dogs to come in and out of the residence freely.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
We don't know that for sure.
Speaker 7 (11:08):
There's different reports about the front door. The maintenance worker
initially says in his nine to one to one call
that the front door is locked. When the police get there,
the police say that the front door was not locked.
So we don't know exactly the situation with the front door,
but we do know that the back door absolutely was
not only unlocked, but it was open and dogs seemed
to be coming in and out of the home freely.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
Very very curious, And I'm going to follow up in
a moment with Cheryl McCollum regarding that door, Ajar. We've
seen that before when pets were involved. Okay to doctor
William Maroney. A lot to break down right there, doctor Moroney.
First of all, mummification, what is it now? We believe
(11:50):
and I'll get into this too.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
There's just so much, so.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Many scientific evidence. Is what it's called in the law
regarding for instance, the pacemaker. How long had it not
been working? And what does that mean? There's a lot
to do with this pacemaker. What I'm getting at, Morony,
is a timeline. Can you talk to me about what
is mummification and how would that happen that quickly? I mean,
(12:13):
I would expect if they have been dead nine days
as we are told, based on a lot of different
circumstantial evidence, extrinsic evidence. I'm very surprised their bodies aren't
in decomp as opposed to mummification.
Speaker 12 (12:30):
There's two words that lead us to understand mummification New Mexico.
This is totally different than a body dying in Iowa,
Connecticut or Wyoming. Bodies desiccate in these kind of environments
(12:50):
much faster.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
And is that do I have to tell you again,
doctor Moroney?
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Desicate, I'll speak, thank you, yes, and I will take that,
not in a bad way.
Speaker 12 (13:04):
Dummy down for me, It's look in any other environment.
Mummification is a general principle that follows. Nobody goes to
the bloating, the bloating around the face, the bloating around
the center chest and the torso. Limbs mummifi faster limbs
(13:26):
don't usually bloat up with gas. I see it all
the time on scenes mummification if somebody's been down a week.
But New Mexico, those are the key words. Is why
this went through mummification so fast. Air condition, outdoors, whatever
the conditions are New Mexico mummification. Drying is really a
(13:50):
big part of this.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
So you're saying mummification what happened much more quickly in
New Mexico as opposed to let's just say Manhattan bingo. Yes,
because of the dry air and the temperature. Correct correct, Okay,
doctor moroney. How can there be bloating and modification?
Speaker 12 (14:07):
Okay, because the bloating comes from gas. There's gas. There's
bacteria in your body, in your bowels, in your stomach,
in your lungs. There's a normal, healthy group of bacteria
that lives in you.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
And as soon as you stop dying.
Speaker 12 (14:28):
The life cycle of that bacteria is unopposed and it
gives off gas. Ordinarily, you swallow them and they pass
in your stool, you cough, you blow them out of
your nose. Bacteria is a very important part of the body,
and when the body no longer can cleanse itself or
reestablish fresh new young bacteria, old bacteria and decay cause
(14:54):
the body to bloat. These are very specific gases related
to decomposition, but the process of bloating is very very common.
It's just that you bloat and you dry in different
places at different times, and arms and legs are where
you mummify. First, Nobody said anything about maggots. That's very
(15:20):
interesting because blowflies and maggots would allow you more time
to actually stage when they died. Nobody's talking about maggots.
That's very interesting. That says to me that the house
was sealed and it wasn't as open because flies come
(15:42):
in anywhere, and when they plant their eggs, they plant
them in the eyes, they plant them in the nose,
they plant them in the mouth, and they go to
other body parts like the rectum, and they multiply as maggots.
Nobody's talking about maggots. That's really important here too.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
Darthian Maroney, need to understand what you're saying.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
It is forensic etymology, the study of bugs insects as
it relates to crime, specifically dead bodies.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
So let me understand, doctor Moroney.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
For maggots to appear on a dead body, that body
must be exposed in some way.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
To the outdoors.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
So the outdoor, the fly has to come in to
the residents to get to the body, right right, okay,
And even if there are no flies in the area,
as soon as a body as someone dies, they come.
I don't know that I'm not an etymologist, but they
show up in all sorts of weather conditions.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
So you're saying, this is really interesting.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
Many people believe that with a dead body magots just
originate from the body.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
That's not true.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
The fly has to the insect. The adult insect has
to appear and then lay eggs, hence maggots. And you're saying, because.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
There weren't on that door, must not have been a
jar the entire time.
Speaker 12 (17:16):
Field. Yes, And I think it's it's key that they
don't talk about maggots in any other case where anybody
dies outdoors, you always bring in a forensic entomologist, and
the maggots help you apply a timeline. Maggots are on
the body the first hour it dies outdoors, so if
(17:37):
you don't have any maggots at all, then there were
never any openings for windows or doors the whole time
this was going on, and the mummification comes from the
air conditioning.
Speaker 9 (17:49):
Hagmann's daughter, Leslie tells reporters that she hadn't seen her
father or stepmother in a few months since she lives
in California. As far as talking to her dad, she
said it all have been a couple of months, but
she adds they were close. She says everything seemed normal
and good. Her father was in good shape, doing pilates
and yoga multiple times a week.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
For our alert, I have no idea.
Speaker 3 (18:14):
I'm not inside the house.
Speaker 5 (18:15):
It closed as long as I can't go in, but
I see that lab she's laying down on a blog
from the windows a female and email. Probably I don't know.
Speaker 4 (18:25):
I don't know if I's seen.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
Somebody question what do we know about the death of
Gene Hackman, his wife and dog. At this hour, law
enforcement still saying that the deaths are suspicious, not ruling
it accident, not ruling it suicide, and now we're learning
carbon monoxide very unlikely. Of course, theories emerge after Randy
(18:50):
Quaid claims Gene Hackman and his wife were murdered. Quaid
shared his theory, calling on news agencies to stop talking
about the films he is in. This is how they
get away with murdering famous people. To doctor Bethany Marshall
joining me, a renownced psychoanalysis out of the LA jurisdiction
author of deal Breaker. You can find her at doctor
Bethany Marshall dot com. You can also see her on
(19:12):
Peacock Now, doctor Bethany Now. Murder theories are abounding, and
part of that reason is because we're not hearing it
was suicide for obvious reasons.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
We're not hearing it was accident.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
But yet there was no break in, no forced entry apparent,
and we can't find anything missing from the home. So
naturally people start thinking murder.
Speaker 6 (19:40):
That's right, Nancy, But there's so many other things that
could have taken place. And what I would be mostly
concerned about, just from a behavioral perspective, is did this
couple have any negative large events looming in their life?
Like a cancer diagnosis not able to be a mortgage.
I know that sounds strange, but take that into account.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
Why was there a.
Speaker 6 (20:02):
Two month break in talking to Jean Kackman's daughter, Because
older couples are much more safe when they are in
contact with their families. Were their bills that weren't paid?
Was the door typically blocked open? Was there a caregiver
or somebody who came in and out of the house.
Was there an accountant who paid their bills?
Speaker 1 (20:23):
How was their food prepared?
Speaker 2 (20:30):
Crime stories with Nancy Grace. Back to Jessica Finn joining us,
a chief investigative reporter with the US SON.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
I get it.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
If it's not suicide and it's not natural cause, then
naturally people are going to look at the possibility of murder,
and so far law enforcement is calling it suspicious. I mean, Jessica, listen.
Speaker 8 (20:56):
To this from the search warm two green and color
cell phones, two bottles of medication, one bottle of over
the counter tilean on my request, medical records, and a
twenty twenty five monthly planner calendar. Mister Hackman and miss
(21:18):
Arikawa were transported to the office of the Medical Investigator.
An autopsy was performed initial findings noted no external trauma
to either individual. The manner and cause of death has
not been determined. The official results of the autopsy and
toxicology reports are pending.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
Is that correct, Jessica, No external trauma.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
That means no gunshot wound, no stabbing, no obvious size
of ligature or manual strangulation, no bludgeoning.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
Correct. Correct.
Speaker 7 (21:50):
I mean, it's definitely a suspicious case and there's no
clear trauma to the body. What we do know is
that investigator has found several types of pill, thyroid medication,
blood pressure medication, and over the counter.
Speaker 4 (22:04):
Tile and all.
Speaker 7 (22:05):
One of the things that's being reported right now from
the New York Times is that the pills that were
found near Betsy's body are still unidentified, so we don't
quite know why those pills that were scattered, what those
pills that were scattered on the countertop necessarily were. And
we know that these two were found in separate rooms.
Gene appeared to have been found in what would be
(22:28):
the homes and mudroom, with his cane nearby and his
sunglasses nearby, looking as if he had just simply fallen,
whereas She's appeared to have possibly fallen and knocked over
a space heater on her way down in the bathroom.
But we just don't have the answer as yet. We
don't understand why both of these people were found dead.
(22:48):
And definitely it appears that they were found they had
passed at least in the last couple of weeks, because
people had seen them three weeks ago in the neighborhood.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
Doctor William Moroney joining us for now Medical examiner lightning
around this is a yes, no, Can you die of
a thyroid overdose thyroid medicine?
Speaker 12 (23:07):
Not that fast? Yes, not that fast?
Speaker 2 (23:09):
Okay, what about blood pressure mads? Can you die of
an od on? Blood pressure mads?
Speaker 12 (23:14):
That blood pressure medicine specifically is known as a calcium
channel blocker. One of the things it does is it
slows the heart rate. If you took too much, it
would stop your heart.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
But wouldn't that show up in the autopsy.
Speaker 12 (23:31):
No, Well, see the problem with the autopsy and things
like that is they have a predetermined panel of illegal
drugs they looked at. They might have to send out
dilthiasm toxicology to somebody else because for the same reason
that the animal toxicology and autopsies are done faster. I
(23:56):
don't know that any medical examiner can give you a
fast level of del tiasm levels. Diacetyl dl tiism would
be the metabolite, and you'd look at both of them
to see if it was an acute like took a
handful of and died, or whether we were just taking
too much. You've forgotten it slowed your heart rate. It's
(24:17):
a calcium channel blocker.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
I would require.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
But Joshua Ritter joining me, a high profile criminal defense
attorney and former prosecutor, star of Courtroom Confidential on YouTube, Joshua,
it's not working. Everything he just said Ronie is correct,
but you would have to assume that she the wife, Betsy,
decided to o D on BP blood pressure appeals. Then
(24:45):
he oded on blood pressure peals in a different area,
fully closed, looking like he was about to walk out
the door, and the dog they forest fed the.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
Dog blood pressure medication.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
I'm just it doesn't fit this scenario, josh rit Er,
I understand why the murder theories are taking root.
Speaker 13 (25:06):
No, absolutely none of it seems to add up because
you have two people who seem to have collapsed where
they stood. That's my biggest problem is it's not like
they were. One of them was lying in bed or
sitting on a chair. They literally seem to have been
standing and then collapsed on the floor and were found
where they stood. And it seems I think it's safe
to assume in surmise that it happened close in time
(25:28):
to each other, because neither one of them called nine
to one one for assistance on the other person. So
you've got to assume you've now got two people who
collapse where they stood close in time to each other,
if not at the same time. To me, that's absolutely suspicious.
You have to look into that. I think you have
to do exactly what law enforcement is doing, getting search warrants,
starting to gather information, not jumping to any kind of conclusions,
(25:53):
because do these types of things happen where two people
might collapse close in time to each other. I'm sure
that they may have happened before in the past, But
to assume that that's exactly what happened here and it
was either like you said, natural causes or or some
sort of accident, I think would be a mistake at
this point in the investigation.
Speaker 3 (26:15):
Hello, money, I think we just found to a one
defase person inside the house. But this year there's no address.
Speaker 4 (26:25):
I'm gonna wait for you at the gate.
Speaker 3 (26:27):
I'm gonna wait for you, please, And.
Speaker 4 (26:28):
Somebody's really quick, are you with a pais now? Yeah?
Their property. There's no address here.
Speaker 5 (26:36):
So I have to meet the denialists or the police
whoever down at the gatehouse.
Speaker 3 (26:40):
I'll bring them up here.
Speaker 5 (26:46):
Know you're like, all, no, they're not moving.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
Just bring nobody up here really quick, And in the
less hours we learn obvious possible cause of death has
been ruled out.
Speaker 8 (27:05):
Both individuals tested negative for carbon monoxide. An initial interrogation
was conducted of mister Hackman's pacemaker. This revealed that his
nasty event was recorded on February seventeenth, twenty twenty five.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
Doctor William Ronney, What does that mean his last event?
You mean, for instance, the last time the pacemaker was on, No.
Speaker 12 (27:30):
The last time the pacemaker interacted with his heart. His
heart was monitored by the pacemaker. And what that says
to me? Once you die, the pacemaker continues to send spikes,
but the heart no longer responds. There is no event
(27:50):
that the heart is responding to, and they see when
that is. So that would be like the traditional all
American heart attack happened on that day, and after that event,
the heart no longer was beating. That's the event he's
talking about.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
Okay, Cheryl McCollum and joining US coll Case Investigative Research Institute.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
Cheryl, my first thought was carbon.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
Monoxide, but then when I heard the door was a jar,
in my mind, that ruled out carbon monoxide.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
And the fact that the dog is dead too, to me,
that rules out accident.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
Because you want me to think Gene Hackman had an
accident and died, then his wife had an accident and died,
and then the dog had an accident and died.
Speaker 10 (28:40):
No, agreed. So what we would do in this situation
is look at what is there and what's not there.
Some of the things that aren't there, there's no blood,
there's no weapon, there's no shellcasing, there's no sign of
a struggle. Nothing of value is missing. There's no note.
Most importantly, there was.
Speaker 12 (28:59):
Not a now one one call that came from.
Speaker 10 (29:01):
Inside that residence for help. So whatever transpired, it does
seem happen very quickly. Again, it's going to go back
to patterns.
Speaker 7 (29:10):
You have two.
Speaker 10 (29:11):
Animals that were not in a crate that survives. Why
was the one in the crate. People that are close
to them may be able to tell law enforcement the
German Shepherd is put in the crate. When you know,
mister Hackman goes for a walk, he had sunglasses and.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
A cane and was dressed. Perhaps he was.
Speaker 10 (29:28):
Headed outside when either he fail or whatever occurred happened.
But that's the kind of thing you're going to run
into is two almost parallel investigations. You're going to look
at what happened to mister Hackman and what happened to
his wife, and you would almost do two separate investigations there.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
You're absolutely correct, two separate investigations. And where're learning, according
to law enforcement, that they can't determine who died first,
which could be critical into solving the mystery of Gene
Heickman's death.
Speaker 8 (30:00):
Listen, that's a very hard thing to determine. Even with
the assistance of Omi. We asked that question because that's
a question that we want answered. That's a very hard
determination to make, and I don't think even Ohmi could
make that determination based on the initial autopsy.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
What about it, doctor Moroni? Determining who died first, it's.
Speaker 12 (30:18):
Impossible, you know what time he died, you don't have
a timeline for when she died and how it happened
two separate investigations. Then you can't determine who was first
unless there was security cameras, and there's no security cameras.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
Well, wait a minute, hold on morony.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
Isn't it true if one of them died substantially significantly
before the other, the degree of decomposition would be different.
Speaker 12 (30:48):
It would have to be a good full half day
or full day before. You can't really tell a couple hours,
But if it was like a full half.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
Day before, crime stores with Nancy Grace, Dude, Jessica Finn
joining us seeing your vestcative reporter us son, where were
the other two dogs?
Speaker 4 (31:16):
Do we know?
Speaker 12 (31:17):
You know?
Speaker 7 (31:17):
From the nine to one one calls, we hear the
dogs barking in the background. We're, of course assuming that
those were the hackman's dogs. We don't know where they
were found.
Speaker 1 (31:25):
But the way the nine on one calls play out,
it sounds.
Speaker 7 (31:28):
Like they're just kind of roaming around on the property.
It doesn't seem like they're inside anywhere. It just seems
like they're kind of like free wheeling outside. From just
from the way the ninmal one calls are the way
that echoing of the dogs barking in the background can
be heard.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
Now we hear the Santa Fe County share of Adam
and Dooza stating he's trying to create a reverse timeline again.
Speaker 8 (31:52):
That'll be part of our investigation. We will look and
try to gain access to the cell phones. We'll be
analyzing cell phone data, phone calls, text messages, events, photos
in the cell phone to try to piece a timeline together.
One of the things is in an investigation is we
tried a piece of timeline together, usually before the event happens,
(32:13):
and that gives us a lot of information. But in
this case, it seems like we're doing a reverse timeline.
We're doing a timeline from the time of death and
the autopsy and the results, and we're going to start
working our way backwards. We're going to do both and
then hopefully make a determination what may have happened to
both the individuals.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
Okay, a reverse timeline based on digital what does that mean?
Looking at cell phone data, computer data? Who were they
speaking to when? What were they looking up on Google?
When's the last time they logged in or made a
phone call? Not only that when was the last time
people call them and they didn't pick up. There's more
(32:50):
too it, Cheryl McCollum, think.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
Back, dare I bring his name up?
Speaker 2 (32:54):
Conjure him? Alex Murdog. The digital data in that case
was overwhelming. As a matter of fact, I believe that's
how the state finally proved Murdod guilty of double murder
and the deaths of his wife Maggie and son Paul.
The cell phone data compared with the geopositioning and the
nav system in his suburban really nailed his coffin. So
(33:20):
what do you make of the fact that they're making
a reverse timeline, Cheryl? And also they have seies pursua
to Warren. Of course their daytime planners. What does that
tell you they're looking at So.
Speaker 10 (33:36):
They're going to take that planner and they're going to
cross check it with what was looked at on the phone, dates, calls, appointments,
any future event they had that the person that actually
found them was somebody owned the property doing work that
would be in their planner. So they're going to look
at all that to make sure everything lines up and
coincides with what they know the Hackmans were doing. The
(34:00):
weeks before in what they had planned week after.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
Well, you know, Josh Ritter, you and I've tried on
different sides of the fence, of course, many many homicide cases,
and I look at planners to determine did they have
plans in the future. In other words, when people have
plans in the future, they don't usually commit suicide. If
they're looking forward to something like my twins spring break.
I'm looking forward to that. Okay, that's just an example.
(34:25):
But also for forensic reasons, for proative reasons, you look
to see who's the last person there the day that
his pacemaker stopped working, what were they doing, who was
in the home, what was happening. That's why they're looking
at the planner.
Speaker 1 (34:43):
Josh.
Speaker 13 (34:43):
Absolutely, they're trying to reconstruct the events leading up to it.
And to your point too, are there events, are there
appointments in the future, and if so, does that show
planning for the future, which you might be able to
rule that suicide. But did they missappointments that know one
noticed and should those people have noticed? Do they have
an appointment with someone and that person they didn't meet
(35:06):
that appointment with that person, and that person didn't alert
anyone or didn't seem bothered by the fact that they
missed this event. So I think they the planner can
be a treasure tros of information as far as they're
not only their mundane day to day life, but also
the events that they had planned before and after and
what that might provide some insight into this investigation.
Speaker 8 (35:29):
So, you know, I respect the mister Hackman's and Miss
aracauas regard for privacy. I think everybody here understands that
they were very private individuals and a very private family.
There is no surveillance as we know of right now
in the interior of the residence or the exterior of
the residence that is going to help us determine our
time nine or events that happened.
Speaker 2 (35:51):
Now was Santa Fe County Sheriff speaking Mendoza, What does
that mean to me? No surveillance, No surveillance, And let
me clarify that, Cheryl McCollum. There's no home surveillance in
the home of a multi time.
Speaker 1 (36:09):
Oscar winner Rick, No surveillance.
Speaker 2 (36:12):
Hence the theories of murder and or suicide are abounding.
To Jessica Finn, carbon monoxide and I've got a huge
list of celebs and others that die of carbon monoxide
has been ruled out. The levels tested in the autopsy
prove it wasn't CM. That was everyone's first thought. That's
(36:36):
been put to bed. No one sees suicide either. It's
just doesn't make sense that they would both commit suicide
in different rooms with no suicide note falling like that,
appearing as if they had fallen. I mean, hold on,
doctor William Moroney, the method and assessment of suicide is
(36:57):
not consistent with the way these bodies were found.
Speaker 12 (37:00):
No suicide usually means there's some kind of preparation. It
doesn't always mean a note, but it means somebody's taken
time to send a message and organize clothes, pills. They
look nice. There's text messages and other communications would give
(37:21):
you a clue that suicide is a possibility, and that
usually follows treatment resistent depression. That we don't have any
sign that these people have major depressive disorders, not at all.
Speaker 1 (37:34):
As a matter of fact, Jessica Finn, the us son.
Speaker 2 (37:38):
The daughter says that her dad was actually doing great,
doing pilates and yoga multiple times a week. They were
going out to dinner with friends. Nothing suggests to suicide.
Speaker 7 (37:51):
Yeah, Gene and his wife really took care of their health.
They were really active in the community. She made sure
that he was in top notch shape. He was doing
plot is, like you said, staying fit. The whole investigation
gives us more questions than there are answers. I mean,
for both of these people to have died and they
(38:11):
looked like they dropped where they were standing in two
separate places in the home, you know, we can't figure
out whether this was what kind of foul play that
the police are investigating at this moment. But yeah, it
certainly is a conundrum. It doesn't seem like these people
were in distress together and they were very much in
love from what we've heard.
Speaker 8 (38:30):
No, I don't think, you know, there was any indication
that that. Again, there was no trauma indicated on the body.
I'm assuming if they would have fell or you know,
injured themselves or head injury or brain injury, that would
have been discovered by that pathologist. So I'm going to
say that they weren't so too.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
Doctor Bethany Marshall, there's no indication this was an accident.
You just heard the Santa Fe sheriff say that, and Plus,
if one had an accident, what the other has an
accident and the dog has an accident. That doesn't make sense.
We're not getting that the dogs starved, nothing like that.
So the sheriff is saying, no accident, there's no carbon monoxide.
(39:11):
Let's deal with suicide, because I don't see suicide either.
Speaker 6 (39:14):
I don't see suicide either, And that's why I asked earlier,
was that there's some catastrophic event looming in their lives
which would would make them want not want to live.
You know, Nancy, there's an untold story here that I'm
very curious about, and that is, even though he was
well and doing pilates and taking walks, had she become
his caregiver. I do to treat couples in my practice
(39:37):
where one partner is ill and the other one is
the caregiver, and especially when it's a family member, they
typically refuse respite care, meaning they don't want other people.
Speaker 12 (39:46):
To come and help.
Speaker 6 (39:47):
They want to provide the primary care because they love
their family member, and the caregiver's health typically breaks down
over time. In fact, statistically we know that there's a
greater life likelihood of a caregiver dying. We maturely when
they are taking care of a family member. So had
her health been breaking down, and in that case, doctor's
(40:09):
records and also looking at that day planner and seeing
how many appointments was she going to, how many appointments
was was she taking him?
Speaker 2 (40:17):
Dr Bethany, everything you're saying is correct. However, friends that
just just went out with them say that they were happy, healthy,
doing really well, giving no sign that his wife, Betsy
was on the decline. As a matter of fact, she
had devoted herself to him. I'm just not seeing suicide, So,
(40:39):
Doctor William Roney, there are only so many CODs cause
of death. You've got suicide ruled out, there's no trauma,
there's no OD. You've got carbon monoxide ruled out here,
the sheriff ruling out accident. All that's left is what murder,
homicide and unexplained.
Speaker 12 (41:01):
Yes, number one homicide, number two, accident, number three natural,
number four suicide, and number five would be indetermined. That's
our five pauses.
Speaker 1 (41:18):
We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace signing off, goodbye friend.
Host
Nancy Grace
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