August 8, 2022 • 41 mins
A 12-year-old Alabama girl is being hailed as a hero after she chewed through restraints that had kept her tied to bed posts for nearly a week. The girl ran from the home where she was held.
A Good Samaritan saw the girl and stopped to help. 911 is called and police enter the home, after getting a warrant, and find the remains of two dismembered bodies... the girl's mother and brother.
Jose Paulino Pascual-Reyes, 37, is charged with capital murder charges and one count of first-degree kidnapping. Court documents say the girl told investigators she’d been drugged with alcohol and repeatedly assaulted.
Joining Nancy Grace today:
- Sheriff Jimmy Abbett - Tallapoosa County, Alabama (since 1995), Tallaco.com
- Nicole Deborde Hochglaube - Criminal Defense Lawyer (Houston TX), Former Prosecutor, Twitter: @debordelaw, HoustonCriminalDefense.com
- Dr. Charles Heller - Clinical and Forensic Psychologist Specializing in Domestic Violence, Chief Forensic Consultant: Rockland County (New York) Forensic Mental Health Unit, Rutgers Biomedical and Health Sciences, Forensic-Psychology-Expert.com
- Joe Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet", Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan"
- Gina Tron - Crime Reporter, Oxygen.com, Twitter: @_GinaTron, Author: "Star 67" and "Employment" on Amazon, GinaTron.net
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A twelve year old little girl.
A twelve year old little girl found wandering down a
roadway on the side of the roadway by herself, her
(00:29):
braces on, her teeth broken because she has been held hostage,
tied to a bedpost for days. I'm Nancy Grace. This
is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here
at Fox Nation and series M one eleven. First of all,
(00:50):
take a listen to this. It's a horrifying case nearly
two hundred and fifty miles north of Mobile, where a
twelve year old girl was found walking alone and later
led deputes to a gruesome discovery. The Tallapoosa County Sheriff's
Office responding to reports of a young girl wandering alone
County Road thirty four by herself around eight thirty last night.
According to court records, the girl had been tied to
(01:13):
a bedpost for nearly a week and drugged with alcohol
before managing to tow through her bindings and go for help.
Here hearing our friends at WP AM I walking alone
on a rural road with her braces on her teeth
all torn up, where we believe she chewed through her
(01:37):
restraints in order to get loose from the nightmare this
little girl had endured. Again. I'm Nancy Grayson. This is
Crime Stories. Thanks for being with us. What an all
star panel we have for you today. But before I
go to the rest of the panel, I want to
introduce a special guest joining us, the elected sheriff and
(01:59):
tallapoosaccount to Alabama. He has been elected since nineteen ninety five.
Sheriff Jimmy Abbott with us. Sheriff, thank you for being
with us. Hey, good morning, you a sheriff. Just what
I think I've seen it all. Having prosecuted in interstitding
Atlanta over a decade, something like this happens and I
(02:20):
find out sadly I have not seen it all. I'm
trying to understand what exactly happened, Sheriff, take a listen
with me. To Elizabeth White at WRBL Sheriff. According to
court documents, this twelfy year old juvenile was tied to
a bed post for about a week, was drugged allegedly
(02:40):
with alcohol, but somehow was able to chew herself free
from those restraints, get out into that road and flag
down help. Can you confirm that information that is in
the court documents. Yeah, we stand by that affidavit to
be able to procure there Cannopy moant again with me.
Sheriff Jimmy Ammott, the elected sheriff an Talapoosa County, Alabama. Sheriff,
(03:05):
When did you first learn that a little girl was
walking all by herself? And what highway was it? Sheriff?
Hiwe thirty four. We're in the rural area. It's just
kind of southeast of Daville, Alabama. We received a nine
one one call from a motorist that morning at about
eight twenty six am in reporting this young lady on
(03:29):
the roadway near the residence. So we responded. Law enforcement responded,
and as a result of the investigation, the preliminary investigation,
and the information she provided for us, we were able
to procure a kidnapping first degree, warned Sheriff. What can
for those of our listeners and viewers that aren't familiar
(03:52):
with that area? And PS, I don't know if you've
ever heard of this place? Hey, Cody, you ever heard
of it? I have it. I okay, I'm so happy
that I was man able to stump you on something.
My father's from hay Cody, Alabama. It is near opp
which is near Enterprise, which is near Mobile. Now that
(04:13):
is a tiny spot when you have to go to
three cities before you can get a location. I'm working
up to the question. Highway thirty four tell me about that.
HOWE thirty four is about twenty five miles from the Auburn,
Alabama area. We're about eighty miles south of Birmingham, and
this is a rural area. We're known for the Lake
(04:34):
Martin area that we have there, and we're about fifty
miles south of north of excuse me, south of Montgomery, gotcha,
east central east central Alabama, almost to sixty miles from Columbus, Georgia.
Got you. Yes, what is Lake Martin. It's a man
made of lake by seven hundred and twenty seven miles
(04:55):
of shoreline there. It's in Tallapoosa Cousa in Elmore County,
a larger recreational area. Wow. So it's a spot where
people come from all over the state to fish, swam ski. Yeah, yes, ma'am,
from the state and out of state people and that
are actually living in our resident our county. Now, no,
(05:15):
you know, normally that throw a wrench in the works
to have a tourist spot in the middle and listen,
I'm from rural bib County, not even near a city
of twenty five miles to make him, which is in
middle Georgia. I get it. So right in the middle
of a very rural area, very low population, very low crime.
(05:37):
You've got a huge seven hundred square foot lake that
draws tourists from all around, including other states. Now Joe
Scot Morgan with me, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author
of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon and Starving brand
new hit series Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan on
iHeart that throws a wrench in the works when you
(05:59):
have a big tourist like that. Yeah, yeah, it really does,
because you don't know where a lot of these people
are coming from, you know. And Sheriff was right and
mentioning that you've got all kinds of people that are
not just coming in from Alabama and the local metro
areas there, but from out of state. Lake Martin's a
beautiful area, so you know, it will attract people, say
(06:19):
for instance, from Georgia that owned properties over there and
stay for long term or short term. So you can
have transient population that comes in and of course that
creates a headache for all the investigators involved in a
case like this. You know, Sheriff Jimmy Abbott with me
falling on the hills of Jesscott Morgan. When I first
realized what this means, I was prosecuting a case. It's
(06:42):
a guy that was a serial killer, and at that
point I thought I could get him on one murder.
But it was a Jane Doe. I didn't even know
who the purple was yet. I had a Jane Doe
found out in a field, no idea, honor, nothing, but
we were able to figure out. I was thinking, who's
your boyfriend, who's her husband, who's her ex? Where does
(07:05):
she work? Where does she live? Can I find those
things out and maybe I can find the killer. Then
I found out she had gotten off Marta the bus downtown. No,
it was Greyhound Crayoun bus downtown. She came out of
the bus station, Sheriff, and that is when I learned
you throw in airport bus station tourist attraction. Suddenly there
(07:31):
goes your line of inquiry because now you have thousands
of potential suspects. You wouldn't have if, say a woman,
a person was found dead in their home. When you
throw in something like Lake Martin, you've got a lot
more potential suspects. But let me get back to finding
this twelve year old girl. What is that? Let's see
(07:52):
seven eight, fifth grade, almost six or seventh I believe
seventh grade, completed, a sixth grade, headed to the seventh
So just out of the sixth grade, twelve years old. Now,
how did she get picked up? Sheriff? Well, basically she
wasn't picked up. She was actually when we got the call,
(08:13):
law enforcement responded our agency and also another agency responded
there and just attained her to law Investigative investigators got
to the scene and once they got to the scene
and kind of debriefed her on the information that she
could provide us. Sure, if you went to the scene later,
(08:33):
what did you observe? Was it on a lonely stretch
of road? And I understand the motorists saw her. Was
it a man or a woman that saw her. We're
not getting into that right now because we still in
the investigative stages, and so we have interviewed the person
that actually saw her there. It is a rural area,
it's not a heavy populated area. It is a through road,
(08:58):
Like I said earlier, a lot of traffic going to
the lake, going to Auburn. So about a twenty six
when she actually called nine one one and the agencies
responded to gather information from her, A twenty six Am, Yes, ma'am.
So somebody, a motorist comes along, sees the girl and
they don't take the girl anywhere. They just call nine
(09:20):
one one. Correct, that's correct. That's the best thing. That's
the very best thing. Because think about it, Sheriff, which
I'm sure you already have, if the person, the good
samaritan puts the girl in the car, it takes her somewhere.
If this thing finally goes to trial, the prop could argue, oh,
they did it. I didn't do it. That motorists did it.
I know it sounds crazy, right, but they could argue that.
(09:43):
And if you get one crazy juror, you're screwed. Now
a lot of lawyers talking in the fancy Latin terms,
but I'm telling you you'd be screwed. So thank goodness,
that's what the motorists did. Time stories with Nancy Grace. Guys,
(10:15):
we are talking with the elected sheriff. Sheriff Jimmy Abbott
out of Talapoosa County. A twelve year old girl is
fan with her braces all ripped up, walking along the
side of a desolate rural highway. And this is what
we learned. Take a listen to our friends at WSFA.
Surrendous situation. Talapoosa County Sheriff Jimmy Abbess as deputies gotta
(10:37):
call yesterday morning that a twelve year old girl was
wandering down the road here along County Road thirty four.
Investigators say she was kidnapped. We always say say something,
to say something. We're very appreciative to the people that
actually came forward. The twelve year old girl, according to
court records, had been tied up and drugged before managing
(10:57):
to escape. Sheriff, what did the girls say had happened
to her? Well, basically what she indicated as far as
the complaints that we were actually doing. You know that
she indicated in there that she had been restrained to
the bedpost for a fox in a week and gave
the victim alcohol to keep her in a drug state,
(11:19):
as well as assaulted her in the head area. Right,
assaulted her in the head area, you mean hit her
in the head, Yes, ma'am was the little girl sex assaulted.
We have no knowledge of that at this time. So
in order to keep her sedated, the perp fed her
alcohol and hit her in the head. That's what our
(11:41):
complaint to indicated, so that we could actually get the
arrest warrant. Yes, sureff, what condition was the girl in?
She did not have any life threatening injuries as injuries,
she did receive medical attention and then she was placed
into the custody of Obama Department came and resources. Does
(12:04):
she have the wherewithal to tell you where this had happened?
She did, she indicated, as she was in an approximate
location the residents when we actually arrived on the scene.
The alsers arrived on the scene and started a gathering
information from her in regards to this. Joining you right now,
special guest crime reporter from Oxygen dot com. You can
(12:27):
find her on Twitter at Underscore Gina Tron, author of
Star sixty seven and employment on Amazon with Me Gina Tron. Gina,
what do we know about that morning? Eight twenty six
am when the call comes in? After the call went
came in, the girl was taken to the hospital and
(12:50):
from there the investigators went I believe the next day,
they went to the home where she instructed them was
being held captive. Gina, do you know if it's been
reported that the girl was sex assaulted? It was not
reported that. However, the court documents say that the intended
(13:11):
to kidnapping was to quote violate or abuse sexually the victim.
Sheriff Jimmy Abbott back to you, the girl was able
to lead you back to the home where she says
she was tied to the bedpost. Correct, that's correct. Where
was it? The home was on counter Road thirty four,
which is the same proximity that she was actually located at.
(13:35):
So it's in that rural areas. We spoke and it
was the same day instance, not in the next day
that we actually went into the residence. Sheriff, What was
found when you and your people went into the residence. Actually,
we precured a search warrant for the residence based on
the information and entered into the residence, and at that
(13:57):
point in time, two decomposed bodies were actually found in
the residents. They were removed and went to the Alabama
Department of Forensic Sciences for their examination. Take a listen
to this. Yesterday about a twenty six, our office received
a call of a young juneile female walking in the
(14:17):
roadway in the area of thirty five forty seven County
Road thirty four. During their initial investigation, from the information
that we received and collected, we were able to arrest
the Jose Pauline Pascal Reyes of this same address for
kidnapping in the first degree and he was arrested in
(14:39):
Auburn or Summerville Circle by the Marshall Service in the
Auburn Police Department and more. Listen, first of all, what
stands in the affidavit. We stand by that affidavit to
be able to procure the kidnapping wants. And I would
say she's a hero, and it's one of those things
that we want to get into to a later where
(15:02):
gave her medical attention and she's safe now and so
we want to keep her that way. And that's basic
all I can actually say. The first contact we had
her which yesterday morning when a passing bar was able
to stop with her and they reported to us, so
she was not a considered a missing person. And also
(15:23):
we learned more from Elizabeth White at WRBL the child
had restraint marks on her wrist braces, on her teeth
broken from her escape, according to investigators, as the child
was being treated for injuries, investigators entered the home, locating
two decomposing bodies. Their identities and cause of death not
(15:45):
yet released. Ryas was located Monday by US marshals at
a construction site where he was working in Auburn. He's
charged with first degree kidnapping. Investigators say other charges, including
capital murder, are pending. Nicole hodge Clod joining me veteran
criminal defense attorney out of Houston, former prosecutor, and you
(16:06):
can find her at Houston criminal defense dot com. Nicole,
did you hear Sheriff Jimmy Abbott say very carefully we
had an affidavit to support a search warrant before we
went into that home. That's the way you do it. Yeah,
that's cross your t's and dot in your eyes. Because
in my mind, if a little girl with embraces all
mangled up from chewing through restraints to escape a sex predator,
(16:32):
been tied up to a bed post for a week,
hitting the head, and fed alcohol to keep her sedated,
I would call that X and exigent circumstances, but not
only that, which you usually would apply to a car,
I would be worried another crime could be going down
in that home and just break the door down. Now see,
(16:53):
that's how we have shriff Jimmy Abbott because he did
the right thing. Because you don't want to trial the
defense jumping up and saying he had time to get
a warrant. You can't just break down the door, you're
so right, and some judge might agree and throw out
all the evidence that you find inside. Of course, also
(17:14):
there's ultimate discovery because ultimately two dead bodies are going
to be found because someone is going to miss those people.
But did you hear that this girl had not been
reported as missing even though she had been tied to
a bed post for a week, And now we know why,
(17:34):
But first explain why the sheriff did the right thing
and getting the warrants absolutely the right thing. And as
you've already pointed out, it really is kind of a
belt in suspenders situation. It could be what we call
exigent or emergency circumstances which would have allowed law enforcement
to go in without a warrant, But this is exactly
the right way to do it for law enforcement. You
(17:55):
get that warrant to be sure. That way there are
no arguments later on when you discover evidence that you
need for trial. And I'll tell you that's a hard
thing to do. When you have a case involving a child.
There are very few circumstances more emotional than finding a
child who is injured, who has been attacked, and who
(18:17):
has reported that this is the location of the crime,
and that there may be something still ongoing. And it
is so smart to press pause, as we've done in
this case, do what is correct under the law and
get that warrant, even though it is really not the
emotionally natural thing to do, not at all. Sheriff Jamie Abbott,
(18:37):
in your jurisdiction, can you get a warrant over the
phone or did you have to go through standing an
investigator to the sheriff, I mean, to the judge, have
the investigator swear in and give information or could you
do it my phone? Yes, we can do telephonic search
warrant my phone, and then we have to then, you know,
prepare the affidavid, you know, for the judge later to
(19:00):
to sign and then the return. So everybody a return
that Sheriff Abbot's talking about is when you go in
on a search warrant and you find things that you're
going to seize, like drugs. Let's just go with drugs.
You write a return, which means you list everything that
you're seizing from the home. Sheriff, I'm so glad you
(19:20):
could do. You said telephonic a phone affidavit. You know,
you explain it, Nicole Hodge Globe what we mean by
abbot Sheriff Abbott getting the affidavit to support the warrant
to make that search legal. So the law enforcement official
who is providing the affidavit has to swear to it
and go in front of a judge or in front
(19:42):
of somebody who can really notorize it or accept that swearing,
and then give them a document that is the warrant.
So in the old days, most places required that you
be present. You go do that in person. There have
been changes to the law over time, and these changes
allow for these types of swearing as to happen over
(20:03):
the telephone. They have people in place who can accept
the swearing and provide the affidavit, oftentimes over the computer.
It would have been again in the old days, provided
by facts or just hand. It's the law enforcement official.
But now because we know and understand that time is
of the essence. You can actually take care of these
things remotely, which really makes up So Sureff, what do
(20:26):
you do use the magistrate who were really there for
off hours because court very often doesn't start till nine
or ten o'clock in the morning. Who do you go
in front of a magistrate? We actually use our district judge.
We have district judges and circuit judges in our county,
so we actually do it in person by phone to
the circuit to the district judge, Suriff Abbott, what was
(20:48):
discovered when your people went in the home? Pursue it
to one? Well, as you know, the two decomposed bodies
were actually failed. We process the scene for almost three
days Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday, gathering other valuable information that
we can use against the individual. Can't get into that
(21:11):
right now, but basically, the two decomposed bodies were actually
our focus to begin with. And once we found those,
then they went immediately to transport immedially to Forensic Sciences
which is located in Montgomery, and they started their examination
and Friday, if I may add, is that we've finally
(21:33):
got a positive idea on the Sandra Saha, and then
the other individual, juvenile under the age of fourteen, is
reasonably sure that this is identity of this individual. So
I've got a woman and a little boy where the
(21:54):
two murdered people. And I'm understanding, I'm reading between the
lines that at first you couldn't even identify the victims.
Sandra Saha is a little twelve year old girls mother,
and the little boy seems to be her brother. I'm
(22:19):
hearing you say it was a three day process, an
odyssey of processing that home where the little girl had
been tied to a bedpost for a week, sedated with
alcohol and beaten a head. I just wonder, sheriff, where
(22:43):
she was tied to the bed, would she had been
able to see her mother or brother's body. We're not
getting into that right now. I hope you understand. It's
still a part of the investigation and we're trying to feel,
like I said, to gather everything from A to Z
and then actually make our returns and then get with
(23:06):
our prosecutors and move forward with the case. To doctor
Charles Heller joining me, clinical forensic psychologist, chief forensic consultant
in Rockland County, New York. The forensic mental Health unit
works there at also Rutger's Biomedical and Health Services Doctor Heller,
I can't even imagine what this child will live through
(23:31):
the rest of her life. Yeah, this is a terrible
complex trauma, and she's going to need a lot of
emotional support and understanding, and there are various treatments that
can be used over time. But really we don't really
(23:53):
know what her condition is emotionally or mentally. Obviously, we
can hermise that she's been through one of the worst
travelers any human being could ever go through. Is horrible story.
I'm just wondering what she knew, if she knew what
(24:13):
was happening to her mother and brother. During this investigation
overnight investigation process and the residence we have found located
two decomposed bodies that would failed in currently at the
Department Forensic Sciences pending the identification. One of the victims
has been identified as the suspect's girlfriend, Sandra Vasquez Seja.
(24:38):
Court documents alleged Pascal Reyez smothered her to death with
a pillow. The other victim was her child, identified only
by his initials. Pascal Reyez is charged with capital murder
of a child under fourteen years old. The criminal complaint
goes on to accuse Pascal Reez of abusing a corpse
in an attempt to hide the evidence. Abusing a corpse, well,
(25:00):
that's certainly putting perfume on the pig you were hearing.
In addition to the Tallapoos County Sheriff, Sheriff Abbott our
friends at NBC, but now take a listen to our
friends Sarah killing in at w VTM. Court records are
identifying the victims found in the date film home as
a woman and child. The adult victim, Sandra CJ, was
(25:24):
smothered to death. The other victim, a young boy, beaten
to death. The two were dismembered to hide evidence. Jose
Pascal rayas that man you see right there, charged with
capital murder, abuse of a corpse, and kidnapping. Police say
that he kidnapped a twelve year old who he drugged
tied to a bedpost before she escaped by chewing her
(25:44):
way out of the restraints. To Sheriff Jimmy Abbott, have
you ever had a dismemberment case before this one? No,
I'm sorry this was your first and I pray it
it's going to be your last. Because that, and I
know you've got to be careful because you're going to
be a witness. So whatever you don't want to answer,
(26:07):
I know you'll tell me. You're very forthright, Sheriff. When
your people first went into the home, was it apparent
that a dismemberment had occurred? I can't, I can't get
into that. And for no, no, no, no, You're absolutely right.
You're right, And that's why I've got Joe Scott Morgan,
not that he went into the home, but he's seen
(26:29):
probably more dismemberments. Between you and I together, Just Goot Morgan,
death investigator and professor forensics, Joe Scott, You and I
just okay, just gave me chills just remembering this. You
and I have just finished and I'm sure it's on going.
We're not through yet. Joe Scott investigating the case of
Colt mom Laurie Valo, where her two of her children
(26:53):
were murdered by her new husband and the little girl
was dismembered, Tyley was dismembered. There have been well, you
and I've investigated a lot of dismemberment cases. Yes, you're
you're three days, three days to process the scene. And
now I know why. Yeah, and if there's an upside,
(27:16):
the idea that it did take three days gives you
an idea as to the care that has been taken
in processing the scene. You know, we back up and
we think about this warrant that was the issue prior
to making entry into the scene. You've got to contain
scene because it's within you know, this this dwelling, which
(27:37):
is helpful in this sense. You don't have people you
can control who's coming in and out of it. And
because there's a lot of fragile, delicate evidence in a
scene like this that investigators would have to take their
time with. You know, if we just look at you know,
the word decomposing has been used several times, and when
(27:59):
you're dealing with a composing case and you don't have
an immediate witness that can give you information, time is
of essence there. And so you began to think about
how long the bodies had been down, and you know,
we can talk about things like entomology and study of
insects and the rate of decomposition and heat. I don't
know they're going to get the same kind of insects
(28:20):
inside a home that you would get off the bodies.
Had been left out. Hey, hold on, Joe Scott, in
just a second, hold your thought, because I want to
hear every single thing you're saying. I just got to ask, Sheriff,
Jimmy Abbott, Sheriff, I'm looking at the little girl. Her
face is blurred, and she's got on a little shirt
with the little it looks like a little blue horse
(28:42):
with wings, and it's rainbow colored. And she's all dressed
up to match her outfit with her skirt. I'm looking
at a picture of her brother and her mother is
just beautiful, Sheriff. How do you do it? How do
you get up in the morning and put one foot
(29:04):
in front of the other. I'm looking at these three.
Oh my, she's got on a little headband with little
ears and a unicorn, a gold unicorn horn coming at
the top of her little headband. Like something I would
dress my sister, I'm excuse me, like I would dress
my little girl am when she was younger. And to
(29:28):
think the brother and the mother dead and dismembered, and
the little girl has been through hell, the bottom of hell,
and then out tied to that bedpost, while her mother
and brother are murdered and dismembered. How do you keep
going here? If I'm curious, Well, this is my second profession.
(29:51):
At first I worked with the States and I worked
in the ALBA Bureau Investigation for approximately twenty years, and
then I ran and got elected in this I feel
like it's a duty once you take this job, it's
a duty to do the best that you can, and
investigating cases to end results is prosecuting the person. So
(30:11):
it's a passion that I've had for years. And you know,
our team of investigators, not just me, We had people
from local agencies, from the state and also from the
federal levels that was assisting us on this and are
still assisting on us as we wade through the evidence
that we've collected. And so it's just one of those
(30:34):
things that you have to do. It. It's a role
in law enforcement, you know, once you sign up. It's
one of those things that I've got a great passion for.
It is working in criminal investigation. As long as I've
worked to make sure that we do the right thing
and train our people to do the right thing when
they're there. You know, there was many a time, sure
if I would leave the courthouse or crime scene and
(30:56):
and I'll just pull off the side of the road
and just sit there to get my mind straight to
keep going. But as a crime victim myself, I feel
like it's a duty to keep going forward. And I
was just curious about how you do that. Now I'm
looking at a picture I found on Facebook, and it
(31:16):
said the mom and a beautiful purple evening dress and
the sun has all a little blue suit and a
white collar shirt, and the daughter is all dressed up
in like a little red party dress and a little heels.
They're obviously going to some events, some function. And to
think that all that is over, the whole family, what's
(31:41):
left of them, will never be the same again. Sheriff
time stories with me. It's grace. Tell me how the
(32:02):
little girl is doing. She's doing well is expected physically,
you know, injuries and all her minor injuries. We placed
her in the custody of the State of Alabama. She
has an attorney in Alabama. That's that's the procedures that
we go through, and the Alabama Department Human Resources is
(32:24):
taking care of her. We've had tremendous support from the community,
people reaching out to assist the DHR as well as
her you know what is another amazing thing about this
is the fact that the little girl lived. Sheriff, take
(32:45):
a listen to our cut seventeen. This is our longtime
friend Gail King at forty eight hours. Jamie Cross went
missing in the early hours of October fifteen, twenty eighteen,
when a man in the family did not know pulled
into their driveway. Jamie's father, Jim was murdered, shot at
point blank range at the front door. Her mother, Denise,
(33:08):
barricaded herself with Jamie in the bathroom and called nine Night.
One call is very inaudible. I can't hear words. You
hear a yelling or maybe a scream, and it ends
by getting hung up. The killer drove away with thirteen
year old Jamie in the trunk of his card. Jamie
(33:30):
class endured hell and had her family murdered as well
by a predator. Sheriff Abbott, I don't understand the thinking
of these perps willing to wipe out a whole family
to get to the girl. I mean, I don't know
if that was the motivation in this case, but do
(33:54):
you believe you have a motivation regarding the twelve year
old girl that you guys say, we're not commenting on
any emo at this time. We're still letting the investigation
continued and with hopefully the results of what you're asking
me as far as m will come out at a
(34:14):
later date. To Gina Tron joining me from Oxygen dot Com, Gina,
what more can you tell us? Well, the family was
living with the suspect four months before this happened, so um,
it's it's uh, it makes one wonder if he had
been planning this for a while. They moved in with
him in February, and um, the attack actually happened on
(34:38):
July twenty fourth, or allegedly that's when the mother and
son were killed and when the girls captivity began. Joe
Scott Morgan joining me, Professor forensics, will we be able
to date the murders and then backtrack and compared to
when the girl was first taken hostage? I think that
(34:59):
deepender pumps school evidence that has been gathered in a
case like this. Uh, you know, one of the things
that you're going to look for is how long the
remains have been down and you know, dependent upon the
information that may be developed by the investigators, is that
going to marry up with this timeline and keep in mind,
(35:21):
you've got to You've got this poor little girl that's
in and out of uh, you know her, what her
current reality was. She She's not going to be necessarily
oriented at time and space, so she's going to be
hard I think, uh to get information from about specific times. Um.
You know, one of the troubling things for me is,
(35:42):
you know, perhaps the head trauma that she may have sustained,
coupling that with this ongoing you know, uh dosing of
alcohol and anything else that she may may have had
in her system. And I'm sure that there they probably
did talks on her, more than likely when they did
the initial assessment. Yes, ma'am, Jess got Morgan joining me,
(36:03):
Jes Scott there. I just don't think there's any way
this little girl did not know her mother and brother
had been killed and dismembered. It's a very small home. Yeah,
it is very contained. And this is the thing about it.
As you know, as this process of decomposition is going
on and she is in this environment, you're going to
(36:24):
have all kinds of horrors that are going to be
falling her. Just from a century standpoint, The things that
she smells, maybe things that she hears in that environment,
and she would have had some kind of awareness. I
don't know specifically, you know what kind of detail she
could come up with. But you know, when you begin
to think about the fact that what has been alleged
(36:44):
is that she had chewed through her restraints in this
environment to get free, that means that shows a will
on her part, and then she's got to extricate herself.
This is not like the police actually came in and
removed her Hollywood movie. She did this all on her own,
and so she would have had to have made her
(37:05):
way through that environment. And I can't even begin to
plumb the depths of how horrible that would have been.
I mean, Josca Morgan, how do we even know the
mom was suffocated? If the bodies have been dismembered, possibly
the head was still intact. In other words, they found
the head so they can make out the particular being
burst or I'm not sure how would they do that
(37:27):
with a dismembered body. That's the only thing I can
think of is that they would have had some kind
of evidence, perhaps in the form of particular hemorrhages, because
they keep using this term decomposing bodies and so how
are you going to assess that? And I think that's
that's what the forensic sciences are faced with in this
particular case. Or to doctor Charles Hell are joining us
(37:48):
forensic psychologist, maybe the little girl told them mommy was asphyxiated,
smothers strangled. Sometimes, Nancy, in cases like this, when it's
such a horrible, horrific event, a trauma beyond words, a
person goes into a dissociative state. It's almost like they
(38:12):
numb out, so they don't feel the pain. It's like
a blackout. So there could be times when this little
girl did that. Also in terms of remembering it that
she can have dissociative moments where she doesn't remember. So
it's a complex trauma and she's going to be she's injured,
(38:34):
she's emotionally injured, and she's gonna need great therapy and treatment.
Nicole devoured hots Globe joining us out of tech this
high profile defense attorney White and Nicole, we were very,
very fortunate that this heroic child was able to get
out of that home and get help. And one of
(38:55):
the next miracles to happen is that the person who
discovered her did not did not take her somewhere, did
not remove her further from the scene, and did not
question her. These things are so important because they will
make her testimony and what she has to say ultimately
to the police that much cleaner. So I'm just very
(39:17):
glad for her. I mean, can we all get real?
Just for one moment? He murdered the mother, according to
the little girl, and the brother kept her alive, tied
to a bed for a week, hitting her in the head,
and feeding her alcohol to keep her sedated. What other
motive is there other than a sex motive? I mean,
(39:39):
am I missing something? Joe Scott helped me out. Yeah.
I mean the fact that that she is restrained is
a huge tell in this. You know, why, what would
be your purpose? I'm using your in a universal sense,
but specifically to the perpetrator. Why why would you need
(39:59):
to keep twelve year old restrained? And you know that's
the biggest thing here for me. And then you're gonna
leave her in this environment and go to work, Go
to work. Just think about the audacity of that. You're
going to go to work working on a construction side.
Remember that's where they caught this guy after he had
left this poor child tied up to this bed and
(40:20):
her family there. This member didn't decomposing, it just beats off.
The metal underpinning of the mobile home was damaged and
investigators believe that that may have been a part of
the effort to hide the body. So if you like
look at footage from the seat, it looks as though
the bodies may have been found underneath the trailer, which
(40:43):
will be brought out at trial because actions before, during,
and following a crime are admissible to show course of conduct,
frame of mind, scheme, motive. For right now, this little
girl is alive. Wait, wait is justice and falls Nancy
Grace crimbstory signing off, goodbye friend,
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A twelve year old little girl.
A twelve year old little girl found wandering down a
roadway on the side of the roadway by herself, her
(00:29):
braces on, her teeth broken because she has been held hostage,
tied to a bedpost for days. I'm Nancy Grace. This
is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here
at Fox Nation and series M one eleven. First of all,
(00:50):
take a listen to this. It's a horrifying case nearly
two hundred and fifty miles north of Mobile, where a
twelve year old girl was found walking alone and later
led deputes to a gruesome discovery. The Tallapoosa County Sheriff's
Office responding to reports of a young girl wandering alone
County Road thirty four by herself around eight thirty last night.
According to court records, the girl had been tied to
(01:13):
a bedpost for nearly a week and drugged with alcohol
before managing to tow through her bindings and go for help.
Here hearing our friends at WP AM I walking alone
on a rural road with her braces on her teeth
all torn up, where we believe she chewed through her
(01:37):
restraints in order to get loose from the nightmare this
little girl had endured. Again. I'm Nancy Grayson. This is
Crime Stories. Thanks for being with us. What an all
star panel we have for you today. But before I
go to the rest of the panel, I want to
introduce a special guest joining us, the elected sheriff and
(01:59):
tallapoosaccount to Alabama. He has been elected since nineteen ninety five.
Sheriff Jimmy Abbott with us. Sheriff, thank you for being
with us. Hey, good morning, you a sheriff. Just what
I think I've seen it all. Having prosecuted in interstitding
Atlanta over a decade, something like this happens and I
(02:20):
find out sadly I have not seen it all. I'm
trying to understand what exactly happened, Sheriff, take a listen
with me. To Elizabeth White at WRBL Sheriff. According to
court documents, this twelfy year old juvenile was tied to
a bed post for about a week, was drugged allegedly
(02:40):
with alcohol, but somehow was able to chew herself free
from those restraints, get out into that road and flag
down help. Can you confirm that information that is in
the court documents. Yeah, we stand by that affidavit to
be able to procure there Cannopy moant again with me.
Sheriff Jimmy Ammott, the elected sheriff an Talapoosa County, Alabama. Sheriff,
(03:05):
When did you first learn that a little girl was
walking all by herself? And what highway was it? Sheriff?
Hiwe thirty four. We're in the rural area. It's just
kind of southeast of Daville, Alabama. We received a nine
one one call from a motorist that morning at about
eight twenty six am in reporting this young lady on
(03:29):
the roadway near the residence. So we responded. Law enforcement responded,
and as a result of the investigation, the preliminary investigation,
and the information she provided for us, we were able
to procure a kidnapping first degree, warned Sheriff. What can
for those of our listeners and viewers that aren't familiar
(03:52):
with that area? And PS, I don't know if you've
ever heard of this place? Hey, Cody, you ever heard
of it? I have it. I okay, I'm so happy
that I was man able to stump you on something.
My father's from hay Cody, Alabama. It is near opp
which is near Enterprise, which is near Mobile. Now that
(04:13):
is a tiny spot when you have to go to
three cities before you can get a location. I'm working
up to the question. Highway thirty four tell me about that.
HOWE thirty four is about twenty five miles from the Auburn,
Alabama area. We're about eighty miles south of Birmingham, and
this is a rural area. We're known for the Lake
(04:34):
Martin area that we have there, and we're about fifty
miles south of north of excuse me, south of Montgomery, gotcha,
east central east central Alabama, almost to sixty miles from Columbus, Georgia.
Got you. Yes, what is Lake Martin. It's a man
made of lake by seven hundred and twenty seven miles
(04:55):
of shoreline there. It's in Tallapoosa Cousa in Elmore County,
a larger recreational area. Wow. So it's a spot where
people come from all over the state to fish, swam ski. Yeah, yes, ma'am,
from the state and out of state people and that
are actually living in our resident our county. Now, no,
(05:15):
you know, normally that throw a wrench in the works
to have a tourist spot in the middle and listen,
I'm from rural bib County, not even near a city
of twenty five miles to make him, which is in
middle Georgia. I get it. So right in the middle
of a very rural area, very low population, very low crime.
(05:37):
You've got a huge seven hundred square foot lake that
draws tourists from all around, including other states. Now Joe
Scot Morgan with me, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author
of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon and Starving brand
new hit series Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan on
iHeart that throws a wrench in the works when you
(05:59):
have a big tourist like that. Yeah, yeah, it really does,
because you don't know where a lot of these people
are coming from, you know. And Sheriff was right and
mentioning that you've got all kinds of people that are
not just coming in from Alabama and the local metro
areas there, but from out of state. Lake Martin's a
beautiful area, so you know, it will attract people, say
(06:19):
for instance, from Georgia that owned properties over there and
stay for long term or short term. So you can
have transient population that comes in and of course that
creates a headache for all the investigators involved in a
case like this. You know, Sheriff Jimmy Abbott with me
falling on the hills of Jesscott Morgan. When I first
realized what this means, I was prosecuting a case. It's
(06:42):
a guy that was a serial killer, and at that
point I thought I could get him on one murder.
But it was a Jane Doe. I didn't even know
who the purple was yet. I had a Jane Doe
found out in a field, no idea, honor, nothing, but
we were able to figure out. I was thinking, who's
your boyfriend, who's her husband, who's her ex? Where does
(07:05):
she work? Where does she live? Can I find those
things out and maybe I can find the killer. Then
I found out she had gotten off Marta the bus downtown. No,
it was Greyhound Crayoun bus downtown. She came out of
the bus station, Sheriff, and that is when I learned
you throw in airport bus station tourist attraction. Suddenly there
(07:31):
goes your line of inquiry because now you have thousands
of potential suspects. You wouldn't have if, say a woman,
a person was found dead in their home. When you
throw in something like Lake Martin, you've got a lot
more potential suspects. But let me get back to finding
this twelve year old girl. What is that? Let's see
(07:52):
seven eight, fifth grade, almost six or seventh I believe
seventh grade, completed, a sixth grade, headed to the seventh
So just out of the sixth grade, twelve years old. Now,
how did she get picked up? Sheriff? Well, basically she
wasn't picked up. She was actually when we got the call,
(08:13):
law enforcement responded our agency and also another agency responded
there and just attained her to law Investigative investigators got
to the scene and once they got to the scene
and kind of debriefed her on the information that she
could provide us. Sure, if you went to the scene later,
(08:33):
what did you observe? Was it on a lonely stretch
of road? And I understand the motorists saw her. Was
it a man or a woman that saw her. We're
not getting into that right now because we still in
the investigative stages, and so we have interviewed the person
that actually saw her there. It is a rural area,
it's not a heavy populated area. It is a through road,
(08:58):
Like I said earlier, a lot of traffic going to
the lake, going to Auburn. So about a twenty six
when she actually called nine one one and the agencies
responded to gather information from her, A twenty six Am, Yes, ma'am.
So somebody, a motorist comes along, sees the girl and
they don't take the girl anywhere. They just call nine
(09:20):
one one. Correct, that's correct. That's the best thing. That's
the very best thing. Because think about it, Sheriff, which
I'm sure you already have, if the person, the good
samaritan puts the girl in the car, it takes her somewhere.
If this thing finally goes to trial, the prop could argue, oh,
they did it. I didn't do it. That motorists did it.
I know it sounds crazy, right, but they could argue that.
(09:43):
And if you get one crazy juror, you're screwed. Now
a lot of lawyers talking in the fancy Latin terms,
but I'm telling you you'd be screwed. So thank goodness,
that's what the motorists did. Time stories with Nancy Grace. Guys,
(10:15):
we are talking with the elected sheriff. Sheriff Jimmy Abbott
out of Talapoosa County. A twelve year old girl is
fan with her braces all ripped up, walking along the
side of a desolate rural highway. And this is what
we learned. Take a listen to our friends at WSFA.
Surrendous situation. Talapoosa County Sheriff Jimmy Abbess as deputies gotta
(10:37):
call yesterday morning that a twelve year old girl was
wandering down the road here along County Road thirty four.
Investigators say she was kidnapped. We always say say something,
to say something. We're very appreciative to the people that
actually came forward. The twelve year old girl, according to
court records, had been tied up and drugged before managing
(10:57):
to escape. Sheriff, what did the girls say had happened
to her? Well, basically what she indicated as far as
the complaints that we were actually doing. You know that
she indicated in there that she had been restrained to
the bedpost for a fox in a week and gave
the victim alcohol to keep her in a drug state,
(11:19):
as well as assaulted her in the head area. Right,
assaulted her in the head area, you mean hit her
in the head, Yes, ma'am was the little girl sex assaulted.
We have no knowledge of that at this time. So
in order to keep her sedated, the perp fed her
alcohol and hit her in the head. That's what our
(11:41):
complaint to indicated, so that we could actually get the
arrest warrant. Yes, sureff, what condition was the girl in?
She did not have any life threatening injuries as injuries,
she did receive medical attention and then she was placed
into the custody of Obama Department came and resources. Does
(12:04):
she have the wherewithal to tell you where this had happened?
She did, she indicated, as she was in an approximate
location the residents when we actually arrived on the scene.
The alsers arrived on the scene and started a gathering
information from her in regards to this. Joining you right now,
special guest crime reporter from Oxygen dot com. You can
(12:27):
find her on Twitter at Underscore Gina Tron, author of
Star sixty seven and employment on Amazon with Me Gina Tron. Gina,
what do we know about that morning? Eight twenty six
am when the call comes in? After the call went
came in, the girl was taken to the hospital and
(12:50):
from there the investigators went I believe the next day,
they went to the home where she instructed them was
being held captive. Gina, do you know if it's been
reported that the girl was sex assaulted? It was not
reported that. However, the court documents say that the intended
(13:11):
to kidnapping was to quote violate or abuse sexually the victim.
Sheriff Jimmy Abbott back to you, the girl was able
to lead you back to the home where she says
she was tied to the bedpost. Correct, that's correct. Where
was it? The home was on counter Road thirty four,
which is the same proximity that she was actually located at.
(13:35):
So it's in that rural areas. We spoke and it
was the same day instance, not in the next day
that we actually went into the residence. Sheriff, What was
found when you and your people went into the residence. Actually,
we precured a search warrant for the residence based on
the information and entered into the residence, and at that
(13:57):
point in time, two decomposed bodies were actually found in
the residents. They were removed and went to the Alabama
Department of Forensic Sciences for their examination. Take a listen
to this. Yesterday about a twenty six, our office received
a call of a young juneile female walking in the
(14:17):
roadway in the area of thirty five forty seven County
Road thirty four. During their initial investigation, from the information
that we received and collected, we were able to arrest
the Jose Pauline Pascal Reyes of this same address for
kidnapping in the first degree and he was arrested in
(14:39):
Auburn or Summerville Circle by the Marshall Service in the
Auburn Police Department and more. Listen, first of all, what
stands in the affidavit. We stand by that affidavit to
be able to procure the kidnapping wants. And I would
say she's a hero, and it's one of those things
that we want to get into to a later where
(15:02):
gave her medical attention and she's safe now and so
we want to keep her that way. And that's basic
all I can actually say. The first contact we had
her which yesterday morning when a passing bar was able
to stop with her and they reported to us, so
she was not a considered a missing person. And also
(15:23):
we learned more from Elizabeth White at WRBL the child
had restraint marks on her wrist braces, on her teeth
broken from her escape, according to investigators, as the child
was being treated for injuries, investigators entered the home, locating
two decomposing bodies. Their identities and cause of death not
(15:45):
yet released. Ryas was located Monday by US marshals at
a construction site where he was working in Auburn. He's
charged with first degree kidnapping. Investigators say other charges, including
capital murder, are pending. Nicole hodge Clod joining me veteran
criminal defense attorney out of Houston, former prosecutor, and you
(16:06):
can find her at Houston criminal defense dot com. Nicole,
did you hear Sheriff Jimmy Abbott say very carefully we
had an affidavit to support a search warrant before we
went into that home. That's the way you do it. Yeah,
that's cross your t's and dot in your eyes. Because
in my mind, if a little girl with embraces all
mangled up from chewing through restraints to escape a sex predator,
(16:32):
been tied up to a bed post for a week,
hitting the head, and fed alcohol to keep her sedated,
I would call that X and exigent circumstances, but not
only that, which you usually would apply to a car,
I would be worried another crime could be going down
in that home and just break the door down. Now see,
(16:53):
that's how we have shriff Jimmy Abbott because he did
the right thing. Because you don't want to trial the
defense jumping up and saying he had time to get
a warrant. You can't just break down the door, you're
so right, and some judge might agree and throw out
all the evidence that you find inside. Of course, also
(17:14):
there's ultimate discovery because ultimately two dead bodies are going
to be found because someone is going to miss those people.
But did you hear that this girl had not been
reported as missing even though she had been tied to
a bed post for a week, And now we know why,
(17:34):
But first explain why the sheriff did the right thing
and getting the warrants absolutely the right thing. And as
you've already pointed out, it really is kind of a
belt in suspenders situation. It could be what we call
exigent or emergency circumstances which would have allowed law enforcement
to go in without a warrant, But this is exactly
the right way to do it for law enforcement. You
(17:55):
get that warrant to be sure. That way there are
no arguments later on when you discover evidence that you
need for trial. And I'll tell you that's a hard
thing to do. When you have a case involving a child.
There are very few circumstances more emotional than finding a
child who is injured, who has been attacked, and who
(18:17):
has reported that this is the location of the crime,
and that there may be something still ongoing. And it
is so smart to press pause, as we've done in
this case, do what is correct under the law and
get that warrant, even though it is really not the
emotionally natural thing to do, not at all. Sheriff Jamie Abbott,
(18:37):
in your jurisdiction, can you get a warrant over the
phone or did you have to go through standing an
investigator to the sheriff, I mean, to the judge, have
the investigator swear in and give information or could you
do it my phone? Yes, we can do telephonic search
warrant my phone, and then we have to then, you know,
prepare the affidavid, you know, for the judge later to
(19:00):
to sign and then the return. So everybody a return
that Sheriff Abbot's talking about is when you go in
on a search warrant and you find things that you're
going to seize, like drugs. Let's just go with drugs.
You write a return, which means you list everything that
you're seizing from the home. Sheriff, I'm so glad you
(19:20):
could do. You said telephonic a phone affidavit. You know,
you explain it, Nicole Hodge Globe what we mean by
abbot Sheriff Abbott getting the affidavit to support the warrant
to make that search legal. So the law enforcement official
who is providing the affidavit has to swear to it
and go in front of a judge or in front
(19:42):
of somebody who can really notorize it or accept that swearing,
and then give them a document that is the warrant.
So in the old days, most places required that you
be present. You go do that in person. There have
been changes to the law over time, and these changes
allow for these types of swearing as to happen over
(20:03):
the telephone. They have people in place who can accept
the swearing and provide the affidavit, oftentimes over the computer.
It would have been again in the old days, provided
by facts or just hand. It's the law enforcement official.
But now because we know and understand that time is
of the essence. You can actually take care of these
things remotely, which really makes up So Sureff, what do
(20:26):
you do use the magistrate who were really there for
off hours because court very often doesn't start till nine
or ten o'clock in the morning. Who do you go
in front of a magistrate? We actually use our district judge.
We have district judges and circuit judges in our county,
so we actually do it in person by phone to
the circuit to the district judge, Suriff Abbott, what was
(20:48):
discovered when your people went in the home? Pursue it
to one? Well, as you know, the two decomposed bodies
were actually failed. We process the scene for almost three
days Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday, gathering other valuable information that
we can use against the individual. Can't get into that
(21:11):
right now, but basically, the two decomposed bodies were actually
our focus to begin with. And once we found those,
then they went immediately to transport immedially to Forensic Sciences
which is located in Montgomery, and they started their examination
and Friday, if I may add, is that we've finally
(21:33):
got a positive idea on the Sandra Saha, and then
the other individual, juvenile under the age of fourteen, is
reasonably sure that this is identity of this individual. So
I've got a woman and a little boy where the
(21:54):
two murdered people. And I'm understanding, I'm reading between the
lines that at first you couldn't even identify the victims.
Sandra Saha is a little twelve year old girls mother,
and the little boy seems to be her brother. I'm
(22:19):
hearing you say it was a three day process, an
odyssey of processing that home where the little girl had
been tied to a bedpost for a week, sedated with
alcohol and beaten a head. I just wonder, sheriff, where
(22:43):
she was tied to the bed, would she had been
able to see her mother or brother's body. We're not
getting into that right now. I hope you understand. It's
still a part of the investigation and we're trying to feel,
like I said, to gather everything from A to Z
and then actually make our returns and then get with
(23:06):
our prosecutors and move forward with the case. To doctor
Charles Heller joining me, clinical forensic psychologist, chief forensic consultant
in Rockland County, New York. The forensic mental Health unit
works there at also Rutger's Biomedical and Health Services Doctor Heller,
I can't even imagine what this child will live through
(23:31):
the rest of her life. Yeah, this is a terrible
complex trauma, and she's going to need a lot of
emotional support and understanding, and there are various treatments that
can be used over time. But really we don't really
(23:53):
know what her condition is emotionally or mentally. Obviously, we
can hermise that she's been through one of the worst
travelers any human being could ever go through. Is horrible story.
I'm just wondering what she knew, if she knew what
(24:13):
was happening to her mother and brother. During this investigation
overnight investigation process and the residence we have found located
two decomposed bodies that would failed in currently at the
Department Forensic Sciences pending the identification. One of the victims
has been identified as the suspect's girlfriend, Sandra Vasquez Seja.
(24:38):
Court documents alleged Pascal Reyez smothered her to death with
a pillow. The other victim was her child, identified only
by his initials. Pascal Reyez is charged with capital murder
of a child under fourteen years old. The criminal complaint
goes on to accuse Pascal Reez of abusing a corpse
in an attempt to hide the evidence. Abusing a corpse, well,
(25:00):
that's certainly putting perfume on the pig you were hearing.
In addition to the Tallapoos County Sheriff, Sheriff Abbott our
friends at NBC, but now take a listen to our
friends Sarah killing in at w VTM. Court records are
identifying the victims found in the date film home as
a woman and child. The adult victim, Sandra CJ, was
(25:24):
smothered to death. The other victim, a young boy, beaten
to death. The two were dismembered to hide evidence. Jose
Pascal rayas that man you see right there, charged with
capital murder, abuse of a corpse, and kidnapping. Police say
that he kidnapped a twelve year old who he drugged
tied to a bedpost before she escaped by chewing her
(25:44):
way out of the restraints. To Sheriff Jimmy Abbott, have
you ever had a dismemberment case before this one? No,
I'm sorry this was your first and I pray it
it's going to be your last. Because that, and I
know you've got to be careful because you're going to
be a witness. So whatever you don't want to answer,
(26:07):
I know you'll tell me. You're very forthright, Sheriff. When
your people first went into the home, was it apparent
that a dismemberment had occurred? I can't, I can't get
into that. And for no, no, no, no, You're absolutely right.
You're right, And that's why I've got Joe Scott Morgan,
not that he went into the home, but he's seen
(26:29):
probably more dismemberments. Between you and I together, Just Goot Morgan,
death investigator and professor forensics, Joe Scott, You and I
just okay, just gave me chills just remembering this. You
and I have just finished and I'm sure it's on going.
We're not through yet. Joe Scott investigating the case of
Colt mom Laurie Valo, where her two of her children
(26:53):
were murdered by her new husband and the little girl
was dismembered, Tyley was dismembered. There have been well, you
and I've investigated a lot of dismemberment cases. Yes, you're
you're three days, three days to process the scene. And
now I know why. Yeah, and if there's an upside,
(27:16):
the idea that it did take three days gives you
an idea as to the care that has been taken
in processing the scene. You know, we back up and
we think about this warrant that was the issue prior
to making entry into the scene. You've got to contain
scene because it's within you know, this this dwelling, which
(27:37):
is helpful in this sense. You don't have people you
can control who's coming in and out of it. And
because there's a lot of fragile, delicate evidence in a
scene like this that investigators would have to take their
time with. You know, if we just look at you know,
the word decomposing has been used several times, and when
(27:59):
you're dealing with a composing case and you don't have
an immediate witness that can give you information, time is
of essence there. And so you began to think about
how long the bodies had been down, and you know,
we can talk about things like entomology and study of
insects and the rate of decomposition and heat. I don't
know they're going to get the same kind of insects
(28:20):
inside a home that you would get off the bodies.
Had been left out. Hey, hold on, Joe Scott, in
just a second, hold your thought, because I want to
hear every single thing you're saying. I just got to ask, Sheriff,
Jimmy Abbott, Sheriff, I'm looking at the little girl. Her
face is blurred, and she's got on a little shirt
with the little it looks like a little blue horse
(28:42):
with wings, and it's rainbow colored. And she's all dressed
up to match her outfit with her skirt. I'm looking
at a picture of her brother and her mother is
just beautiful, Sheriff. How do you do it? How do
you get up in the morning and put one foot
(29:04):
in front of the other. I'm looking at these three.
Oh my, she's got on a little headband with little
ears and a unicorn, a gold unicorn horn coming at
the top of her little headband. Like something I would
dress my sister, I'm excuse me, like I would dress
my little girl am when she was younger. And to
(29:28):
think the brother and the mother dead and dismembered, and
the little girl has been through hell, the bottom of hell,
and then out tied to that bedpost, while her mother
and brother are murdered and dismembered. How do you keep
going here? If I'm curious, Well, this is my second profession.
(29:51):
At first I worked with the States and I worked
in the ALBA Bureau Investigation for approximately twenty years, and
then I ran and got elected in this I feel
like it's a duty once you take this job, it's
a duty to do the best that you can, and
investigating cases to end results is prosecuting the person. So
(30:11):
it's a passion that I've had for years. And you know,
our team of investigators, not just me, We had people
from local agencies, from the state and also from the
federal levels that was assisting us on this and are
still assisting on us as we wade through the evidence
that we've collected. And so it's just one of those
(30:34):
things that you have to do. It. It's a role
in law enforcement, you know, once you sign up. It's
one of those things that I've got a great passion for.
It is working in criminal investigation. As long as I've
worked to make sure that we do the right thing
and train our people to do the right thing when
they're there. You know, there was many a time, sure
if I would leave the courthouse or crime scene and
(30:56):
and I'll just pull off the side of the road
and just sit there to get my mind straight to
keep going. But as a crime victim myself, I feel
like it's a duty to keep going forward. And I
was just curious about how you do that. Now I'm
looking at a picture I found on Facebook, and it
(31:16):
said the mom and a beautiful purple evening dress and
the sun has all a little blue suit and a
white collar shirt, and the daughter is all dressed up
in like a little red party dress and a little heels.
They're obviously going to some events, some function. And to
think that all that is over, the whole family, what's
(31:41):
left of them, will never be the same again. Sheriff
time stories with me. It's grace. Tell me how the
(32:02):
little girl is doing. She's doing well is expected physically,
you know, injuries and all her minor injuries. We placed
her in the custody of the State of Alabama. She
has an attorney in Alabama. That's that's the procedures that
we go through, and the Alabama Department Human Resources is
(32:24):
taking care of her. We've had tremendous support from the community,
people reaching out to assist the DHR as well as
her you know what is another amazing thing about this
is the fact that the little girl lived. Sheriff, take
(32:45):
a listen to our cut seventeen. This is our longtime
friend Gail King at forty eight hours. Jamie Cross went
missing in the early hours of October fifteen, twenty eighteen,
when a man in the family did not know pulled
into their driveway. Jamie's father, Jim was murdered, shot at
point blank range at the front door. Her mother, Denise,
(33:08):
barricaded herself with Jamie in the bathroom and called nine Night.
One call is very inaudible. I can't hear words. You
hear a yelling or maybe a scream, and it ends
by getting hung up. The killer drove away with thirteen
year old Jamie in the trunk of his card. Jamie
(33:30):
class endured hell and had her family murdered as well
by a predator. Sheriff Abbott, I don't understand the thinking
of these perps willing to wipe out a whole family
to get to the girl. I mean, I don't know
if that was the motivation in this case, but do
(33:54):
you believe you have a motivation regarding the twelve year
old girl that you guys say, we're not commenting on
any emo at this time. We're still letting the investigation
continued and with hopefully the results of what you're asking
me as far as m will come out at a
(34:14):
later date. To Gina Tron joining me from Oxygen dot Com, Gina,
what more can you tell us? Well, the family was
living with the suspect four months before this happened, so um,
it's it's uh, it makes one wonder if he had
been planning this for a while. They moved in with
him in February, and um, the attack actually happened on
(34:38):
July twenty fourth, or allegedly that's when the mother and
son were killed and when the girls captivity began. Joe
Scott Morgan joining me, Professor forensics, will we be able
to date the murders and then backtrack and compared to
when the girl was first taken hostage? I think that
(34:59):
deepender pumps school evidence that has been gathered in a
case like this. Uh, you know, one of the things
that you're going to look for is how long the
remains have been down and you know, dependent upon the
information that may be developed by the investigators, is that
going to marry up with this timeline and keep in mind,
(35:21):
you've got to You've got this poor little girl that's
in and out of uh, you know her, what her
current reality was. She She's not going to be necessarily
oriented at time and space, so she's going to be
hard I think, uh to get information from about specific times. Um.
You know, one of the troubling things for me is,
(35:42):
you know, perhaps the head trauma that she may have sustained,
coupling that with this ongoing you know, uh dosing of
alcohol and anything else that she may may have had
in her system. And I'm sure that there they probably
did talks on her, more than likely when they did
the initial assessment. Yes, ma'am, Jess got Morgan joining me,
(36:03):
Jes Scott there. I just don't think there's any way
this little girl did not know her mother and brother
had been killed and dismembered. It's a very small home. Yeah,
it is very contained. And this is the thing about it.
As you know, as this process of decomposition is going
on and she is in this environment, you're going to
(36:24):
have all kinds of horrors that are going to be
falling her. Just from a century standpoint, The things that
she smells, maybe things that she hears in that environment,
and she would have had some kind of awareness. I
don't know specifically, you know what kind of detail she
could come up with. But you know, when you begin
to think about the fact that what has been alleged
(36:44):
is that she had chewed through her restraints in this
environment to get free, that means that shows a will
on her part, and then she's got to extricate herself.
This is not like the police actually came in and
removed her Hollywood movie. She did this all on her own,
and so she would have had to have made her
(37:05):
way through that environment. And I can't even begin to
plumb the depths of how horrible that would have been.
I mean, Josca Morgan, how do we even know the
mom was suffocated? If the bodies have been dismembered, possibly
the head was still intact. In other words, they found
the head so they can make out the particular being
burst or I'm not sure how would they do that
(37:27):
with a dismembered body. That's the only thing I can
think of is that they would have had some kind
of evidence, perhaps in the form of particular hemorrhages, because
they keep using this term decomposing bodies and so how
are you going to assess that? And I think that's
that's what the forensic sciences are faced with in this
particular case. Or to doctor Charles Hell are joining us
(37:48):
forensic psychologist, maybe the little girl told them mommy was asphyxiated,
smothers strangled. Sometimes, Nancy, in cases like this, when it's
such a horrible, horrific event, a trauma beyond words, a
person goes into a dissociative state. It's almost like they
(38:12):
numb out, so they don't feel the pain. It's like
a blackout. So there could be times when this little
girl did that. Also in terms of remembering it that
she can have dissociative moments where she doesn't remember. So
it's a complex trauma and she's going to be she's injured,
(38:34):
she's emotionally injured, and she's gonna need great therapy and treatment.
Nicole devoured hots Globe joining us out of tech this
high profile defense attorney White and Nicole, we were very,
very fortunate that this heroic child was able to get
out of that home and get help. And one of
(38:55):
the next miracles to happen is that the person who
discovered her did not did not take her somewhere, did
not remove her further from the scene, and did not
question her. These things are so important because they will
make her testimony and what she has to say ultimately
to the police that much cleaner. So I'm just very
(39:17):
glad for her. I mean, can we all get real?
Just for one moment? He murdered the mother, according to
the little girl, and the brother kept her alive, tied
to a bed for a week, hitting her in the head,
and feeding her alcohol to keep her sedated. What other
motive is there other than a sex motive? I mean,
(39:39):
am I missing something? Joe Scott helped me out. Yeah.
I mean the fact that that she is restrained is
a huge tell in this. You know, why, what would
be your purpose? I'm using your in a universal sense,
but specifically to the perpetrator. Why why would you need
(39:59):
to keep twelve year old restrained? And you know that's
the biggest thing here for me. And then you're gonna
leave her in this environment and go to work, Go
to work. Just think about the audacity of that. You're
going to go to work working on a construction side.
Remember that's where they caught this guy after he had
left this poor child tied up to this bed and
(40:20):
her family there. This member didn't decomposing, it just beats off.
The metal underpinning of the mobile home was damaged and
investigators believe that that may have been a part of
the effort to hide the body. So if you like
look at footage from the seat, it looks as though
the bodies may have been found underneath the trailer, which
(40:43):
will be brought out at trial because actions before, during,
and following a crime are admissible to show course of conduct,
frame of mind, scheme, motive. For right now, this little
girl is alive. Wait, wait is justice and falls Nancy
Grace crimbstory signing off, goodbye friend,
Host
Nancy Grace
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