December 19, 2024 • 46 mins
A second grade teacher at Abundant Life Christian School in Madison, Wisconsin calls 911 at 10:57 am to report an active shooter inside a study hall classroom at the private Christian school. Inside the study hall class, students from several different grades dive for cover as 15-year-old Natalie "Samantha" Rupnow, is firing a 9mm handgun around the class. She is a student at the school and commits suicide before law enforcement breaches the building. No shots are exchanged.
Madison Police Chief Shon Barnes says identifying a motive is a top priority, but at this stage of the investigation it appears the motive was a combination of factors. A reported manifesto has been found, but Barnes says they have not been able to verify its authenticity.
Police say Rupnow has been in texting with a 20 year old Carlsbad,California man, planning his own mass attack. After police discovered the message Alexander Paffendorf was interviewed by the FBI where he admitted “that he told Rupnow that he would arm himself with explosives and a gun and that he would target a government building." No specific building was named. A California judge has issued a restraining order under California’s gun red flag law. The order requires Paffendorf to turn in his guns and ammunition to police within 48 hours. Neighbors say police entered his home carrying out a big "black gun box."
Joining Nancy Grace today:
- Philip Dubé - Former Court-Appointed Counsel, Los Angeles County Public Defenders: Criminal & Constitutional Law, Forensics & Mental Health Advocacy
- Angela Arnold - Psychiatrist, Atlanta GA, AngelaArnoldMD.com, Expert in the Treatment of Pregnant/Postpartum Women, Former Assistant Professor of Psychiatry, Obstetrics and Gynecology: Emory University, Former Medical Director of The Psychiatric Ob-Gyn Clinic at Grady Memorial Hospital, Voted My Buckhead’s Best Psychiatric Practice of 2022, 2023 and 2024.
- Robin Dreeke - Behavior Expert & Former FBI Special Agent / Chief of the FBI Counterintelligence Behavioral Analysis Program, Author:"Sizing People Up: A Veteran FBI Agents Manual for Behavior Prediction" , "Unbreakable Alliances: A Spy Recruiter's Authoritative Guide to Cultivating Powerful and Lasting Connections" being released and "Sizing People Up: A Veteran FBI Agents Maual for Behavior Prediction" all of his books available on Amazon, peopleformula.com, Twitter: @rdreeke
- Katherine Schweit - Creator of the FBI's Active Shooter Program, Former Chicago prosecutor and career FBI special agent; authored "Stop the Killing; How to End the Mass Shooting Crisis" and "How to Talk About Guns to Anyone"; website: https://www.katherineschweit.com/
- Dr. Eric Eason - Board Certified Forensic Pathologist, consultant, Instagram: @eric_a_eason, Facebook: Eric August Eason, LinkedIn: Eric Eason, MD
- Bria Jones - Reporter, Fox 6 Milwaukee Twitter: @BriaJonesTV Facebook: Bria Jones TV
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, the girl school shooters, dark
online past links to odd and scary size like watch
people Die, and in the last hours has an accomplice
(00:23):
been identified?
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Good evening, I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank
you for being with us.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
Well.
Speaker 4 (00:29):
Wisconstant School is met with tragedy. A fifteen year old
student armed with a nine millimeter handgun shoots a student
and a teacher dead injuring six others.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Who is this girl, just fifteen years old, going down
in the history books as one of the very few
female school shooters. What possessed a teen girl to have
an obsession with dark and morbid, even gruesome websites?
Speaker 2 (01:02):
What if anything, did her parents know?
Speaker 1 (01:05):
As law enforcement desperately seeks a motive for a horrific
school shooting at a private Christian school, take a listen
to Police Chief Sean Barnes.
Speaker 5 (01:16):
Today at ten fifty seven am, our team was called
to the Abundant Life Christian School in reference to an
active shooter. We know that three people are dead, including
the suspect shooter. We know that the suspect shooter was
a teenage student who attended the school. Two other people
(01:38):
have died. That died were a teacher and a teenage student.
Six other people were injured. Two students are now in
critical condition in the hospital and these injuries are considered
life threatening injuries.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Why why, why did this happen?
Speaker 1 (02:00):
We're just seeing the chiefs and video from our friends
at Fox nine Minneapolis, Saint Paul joining me an all
star panel to make sense of what we are learning
this as.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
It emerges a much older.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Man that she apparently had met online may have planned
a simultaneous terror attack to go down at the same
time that she unleashed a heel of bullets and a
private Christian school.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Why is this happening? How is this happening?
Speaker 1 (02:31):
Straight out to Brian Jones joining us out of Milwaukee
investigative reporter Fox six in Milwaukee, Bria, thank you for
being with us. First of all, let's go back to
that moment and dissect what we know happened at the school.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
What happened when.
Speaker 6 (02:46):
Nancy authorready say on Monday that fifteen year old girl
we know Natalie Rubbnow they say she went by Samantha.
She opened fire inside of a study hall classroom at
Abundant Life Christian School. The school is K through twelve,
about four hundred students.
Speaker 7 (03:01):
This is a private Christian school.
Speaker 6 (03:02):
We know that ultimately she shot and killed two people,
a fourteen year old girl who has been identified as
Ruby Bergara, as well as a forty two year old
teacher that was identified.
Speaker 7 (03:12):
As Aaron West.
Speaker 6 (03:13):
Now we know that there are six other people who
were also shot. Late last night, there was not a
press conference. I was actually at the school yesterday. There
was not a press conference, but around nine o'clock we
did receive an update from the police chief that at
least four of these victims have been released from the hospital,
two of them still in critical condition, fighting for their lives.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
Today, let's straight out to you, Robin Drake, behavior expert,
former FBI Special Agent for My Purposes, chief of the
FBI counter Intelligence Behavioral Analysis Program, author of Sizing People
Up and Unbreakable Alliances.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
Robin, we always look to why.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
Of course that's not required in a court of law,
but could I just point to what we are learning
about a sick website that she seemingly was obsessed with,
called Watch People Die. Apparently there are over three million
people in all that have ever visited this website.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
It's graphic. It's upsetting.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
It's people getting shot to death, run over, killed, beheaded
in school. It includes videos of international incidents like the
horrible Isis beheadings we saw over and over and over
and worse. If you can imagine why as a fifteen
(04:36):
year old girl visiting sites like that, why did she
have access to a gun? Why is she wearing a
shirt almost identical to the one worn by a Columbine
shooter that features some German electro band on it. She
obviously was obsessed with them too, And how come nobody
(04:56):
knew anything about it? I find that really hard to believe.
Speaker 8 (05:00):
Well, Nancy, you just hit all the motives right there.
That police said they're going to be looking for. These
things just don't happen. They don't go from zero to
I'm a great kid today to I'm going to kill
people tomorrow. They are groomed into violence, they're desensitized the violence.
The fact that a twenty year old is corresponding with her.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
I do not believe that the parents groomed her violence.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
I don't No, I don't mean at.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
School, this tiny, ety bed Christian school. They did not
groom her into violence. So who are you saying groomed
her into violence.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
You think the parents went.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
On a whip looks up beheadings by isis Nope.
Speaker 8 (05:42):
So this Columbine effect that happened ever since the Columbine shooting,
there's a subculture out there of these people and you've
noted them on social media that are are just groomed
into this. When you are feeling disenfranchised, when you're feeling
like you're bullied, or you're going through some traumatic things
that home, and you're looking to feel connected somewhere, this
is where some of these teenagers are going. And so
(06:04):
that's where she was groomed into violence. And so this
twenty year old, it's part of this network in some way,
and I think we're going to seeing a lot more
tendrils come out from there. And so that's what I
meant about grooming. It wasn't the parents or anyone in
her immediate circle where she was at, because she was
pretty disconnected from what we're hearing.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
Philip Dubay joining me, a high profile defense attorney joining
us out of La Philip, just take off your defense
hat for just one moment. I want to analyze what
the chief just said. We don't know about her disciplinary
records because we don't have those records.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
What have they ever heard of a subpoena?
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Get the records. This is a murder investigation. It's not
hard to write out a subpoena duke is taken, which
is basically a subpoena not for your testimony, but for
your documents.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
I want to know what the school knew.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
Because in this most recent Georgia's shooting, remember that that
shooter had but just transferred to the Georgia school. And
what the Georgia School did not have was his eight
inch thick file on disciplinary problems from his old school.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
So I don't want to hear we don't have the
records and get the records.
Speaker 9 (07:17):
No, I agree with you. The problem is is I
think there are two types of records that are kept
by the school. They have what's called your official record
that the district has and the school has right there
on the premises. And then they have what we call
your traveling file, meaning it contains all the notes from teachers,
from the nurses as opposed to your academic progress, any
(07:38):
special needs that you might have in the school. If
the traveling file doesn't make it to your next school,
then the new school has no knowledge of your history.
So I think there should be a change of the law.
Speaker 7 (07:48):
That your bullshit.
Speaker 9 (07:50):
Get your traveling.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
File, Debay, you're trying to compare this to the cult
great case where there was a mass shooting in a
school in Georgia where the file didn't follow him.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
That is so lame.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
Why would you have a student in your school that
could be a security.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Risk because and you don't know what you think is
you don't have the file.
Speaker 9 (08:12):
Welcome to the twenty first century. This is what happens.
One hand doesn't know what the other is doing. It's terrible.
You get the official record, but you don't get the
traveling file that has nurses notes, complaints from other teachers,
complaints from other kids. Instead, you just have an academic
profile of how the kid is doing scholastically. It's a
breakdown in communication between the schools. So what does this mean.
(08:35):
It means that we need to change in the law.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
Well, you know what, You can tell that to the
families of the two dead victims joining right now. In
addition to Bria Jones, Robin Drake and Philip Debay, Katherine Schweid.
Katherine Schweid, the creator of the FBI's Active Shooter Program.
Former Chicago prosecutor, career FBI special agent who authored Stop
(08:58):
the Killing, How to End the Mass Shooting Crisis, and
How to Talk about Guns to Anyone. Catherine, thank you
for being with us. This sounds like a broken record.
After the Georgia mass shooting in a school, it was
highlighted the significance of getting records from the previous school.
(09:21):
Now what group now's records show? I don't know that,
but I think it's a huge dear election and duty
for the current school not to insist on those before
they allow students in.
Speaker 10 (09:33):
No, I'm with you on thatt Nancy. You know you
have to know what's coming. And I'll tell you. I
live in Virginia, Northern Virginia about I don't know, a
few blocks away from the shooter who shot up Virginia
Tech High School or Virginia Tech University and his that
shooter went to my kids school where my two kids
(09:54):
went to high school, and that shooter at Virginia Tech
had problems in high school. That information was never passed
to Virginia Tech, and then Virginia Tech had no idea
that this kid had all kinds of issues when he
was in high school. What happened after that is that
(10:14):
the state legislature changed the law and said information has
to pass from school to school. And we have seen
this in a lot of cases where a shooter moves
up and not just a shooter, right, but another student
who's got violent ideation. They move from one school to
another because they're kicked out of one school or kicked
out of another. I will say this school is a
(10:35):
twelve two K school, so I think we have to
verify exactly how long she's been there. But absolutely, you're right,
the records have to move with because there isn't a
way for the teachers to know what they're dealing with
and whether this is an explosive kid or whether this
kid is buried in their own world and going to
cause a problem that isn't going to have we don't
(10:56):
know about.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
Actually, you said that they've got to know whether the
kid has quote buried in their own world. I don't
know how they have access to a student, a child's
social media be goes. I had to tell you something,
Drake Robin Drake FBI behavioral analysis expert. According to what
we're learning now, she allegedly posted under the user name
(11:18):
Crossixer cross sixer and commenting on a video suicide saying
gotta be thinking of something while hanging himself. She writes,
I wonder what a lot of people think before they die,
you know.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Like just simply if it's they want to die.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
At all, or just nothing, or perhaps just sex or
something stupid. One thing I would bother.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
To think is just do it already if I was
killing myself. But I guess it depends on the situation.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
It goes on and on, Robin Drake, she's commenting so casually,
almost flippantly about homicide and suicide.
Speaker 8 (12:03):
Yeah, there's a lot of idolization going there, and it's
extremely sad that there's not more observation going on with
her from her parents. I mean, the parents' culpability in
this is going to be really interesting as it comes out.
And the big thing here access to firearms, kids and
individuals that are showing a pattern of behavior over time,
because again I said, this doesn't go from zero to
(12:25):
one hundred. Access to firearms is really key and critical.
How does someone like this have it? They shouldn't and
she shouldn't.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
Crime stories with Nancy Grace, Brian Jones joining us Fox
six Milwaukee.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
What if anything, do we know about her manifesto? Why
is a fifteen year old girl writing a manifesto anyway?
An evil manifesto likely about death, bitterness, anger, and nobody
notice that when.
Speaker 6 (13:05):
Azi At this point, the big thing is that the
police chief, the mayor of Madison, they're all saying that
they want to avoid misinformation. They're trying to verify exactly
where this alleged manifesto came from.
Speaker 7 (13:16):
A lot of concerning words in there.
Speaker 6 (13:18):
We could see there's obviously some trouble with the family
coming from this manifesto as well if it's actually from her.
Speaker 7 (13:25):
Right now, the big thing the police chief.
Speaker 6 (13:26):
They're saying they're just working to confirm investigating where exactly
this document came from. We know they executed a search
warrant at her home. That's where they say they retrieved
some information that could be vital to determining the authenticity
of that alleged manifesto.
Speaker 11 (13:43):
A second grade teacher at Abundant Life Christian School in Madison, Wisconsin,
calls nine one one at ten fifty seven am to
report an active shooter inside a study hall classroom at
the private Christian School inside the study hall, class students
from several different grades dive for cover.
Speaker 12 (14:00):
A deputy with the Dane County Sheriff's Office is first
to arrive on the scene, followed twenty four seconds later
by a Madison police officer, and they immediately enter the school.
Inside the school, officers report the shooter is down and
the weapon has been recovered.
Speaker 4 (14:14):
Fifteen year old Natalie rubbnow also known as Sam has
a troubled and turbulent home life. It all comes to
a boiling point one Monday morning as gunshots ring out
in the abundant life Christian schools hallways, saying a.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
Turbulent home life.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
The parents were divorced and remarried, and divorced and remarried.
Then they have her going back and forth between homes
like every two or three days. I would be more
worried because both parents seem to be loving there. She
is getting a karate belt about her sick obsession with
(14:52):
watching people die online and the fact that she is
apparently courting online with a year old.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
Throw in a gun.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
And target practice with an obsession with Columbine.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
And you have a school shooting in the making.
Speaker 11 (15:10):
Listen Madison fire department arrives on the scene to begin
providing immediate care and treatment of the wounded. Of the
eight people who are shot, four people are transported to
SSM Health Saint Mary's Hospital and three are transported to
University of Wisconsin Hospitals. One of those victims dies on
the way to the hospital, and one of the gunshot
victims is pronounced dead at the scene.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
Joining us as are now Medical Examiner Board certified forensic
pathologist doctor Eric Asen, doctor Ason. I've been thinking about
the victims in this case and all the many near victims.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Their deaths were very likely not instant. Explained well, A
lot of.
Speaker 13 (15:55):
It depends on where the gunshot wounds were located on
the body. If you have a wound to the head,
it's probably going to be pretty quick, but wounds to
the chest or even to the abdomen, oftentimes death doesn't
occur immediately at that point in time. You're going to
have to have a time period where blood loss occurs
and then death will occur. And then we also have
(16:16):
victims that are still in the hospital right now and
hopefully they'll make it, but their injuries are pretty serious.
But it just really all depends on how many times
each individual shot and the location of the wounds and
the organs that were damaged.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
When someone is bleeding out, like we believe the victims
did in this case, you've got a teacher trying to
protect your students, you've got another student. You don't immediately
lose consciousness unless you're shot in the heart or the head.
You lie there and no, you're dying as you hear
(16:50):
all the commotion around you and gunshots ringing out and
students screaming.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
You are aware of that.
Speaker 13 (16:58):
Would have been very scarious. Deep state of despair is
what you would have been going through at the time. Yes,
for sure.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
Who is this girl?
Speaker 1 (17:07):
Extremely rare for there to be a female school shooter,
a teen girl, very statistically unlikely.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
Who is she? Listen?
Speaker 11 (17:20):
Fifteen year old Natalie Upnow known as Sam is identified
as the shooter. She is a student at the school
and fired off multiple rounds inside the classroom. Repnow dies
from an apparent self inflicted gunshot wound before law enforcement
breaches the building. No shots are exchanged between law enforcement
and the teen. Sources say Repnow is known for wearing
a collared shirt with a tie, jeans, and combat boots
(17:42):
to school and pounding energy.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
Drinks straight out to Angela Arnold. Doctor Arnold, a renowned psychiatrist,
joining us out of the Atlanta jurisdiction, Doctor Angie. Wouldn't
the parents know or shouldn't the parents know if she
had a much older boyfriend she says is from Germany?
Speaker 14 (18:02):
I mean, Nancy, wouldn't the parents have known about any
of this? The way she dresses, I mean, all of this,
all of this indicates to me that no one was
paying enough attention to her.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
She's I don't understand what the problem is with her
wearing a white collared shirt with a tie.
Speaker 14 (18:25):
What well, why is she going by Sam instead of
her actual name Natalie? At a very small conservative Christian school.
She is as far as I'm concerned, she is completely
out of place in the school. Okay, probably the parents
have put her there out of some sort of because,
(18:46):
like you said, we don't have her records.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
But she's probably there.
Speaker 14 (18:49):
Because she's been so troubled that they thought, okay, if
we put her in this small school, maybe they can
help her. But you can't go back and forth between parents'
homes and have different because if parents aren't married, Nancy,
I don't care how loving they appear.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
They're not getting along.
Speaker 14 (19:07):
Okay, So she's going back and forth between parents home
several times a week. She can get away with anything
she wants to get away with Number one and number
two she's looking for someone to attach to. They're in
the online boyfriend thing.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Okay.
Speaker 14 (19:25):
This girl is fraught. She was fraught with so many issues.
I can't even believe that they were ignored by her parents.
And I'm telling you, Nancy, that's where this starts, is
with the parents.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
I'm very Let me just see flummoxed by the fact
that you say, because she goes by the name sam
for Samantha, which of course is not her name, or
name's Natalie. Now, because she wears a white collared shirt
and a black tie, you think she has problems because
(19:59):
she dresses.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
Like a boy and goes by a boy's name.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
I don't see that that is inherently a problem.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
I was a tomboy. I didn't have a problem, so.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
What Well, there are a lot of different names for this,
but I don't see this as being her problems. I
would see that as being the school's problem for allowing
her to be bullied because of the way she dresses,
or because she uses a boy's name.
Speaker 14 (20:26):
How do we know she was being bullied?
Speaker 2 (20:27):
Well, you can't knows, doctor Angie.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
You can't say she's the problem because she dresses way
by a boy's name.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
But yet she wasn't bullied. You actually know that she
was bullied. We don't know she was bullied.
Speaker 14 (20:39):
And I'll tell you something, Nancy.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
Then it's not a problem, is it. Oh?
Speaker 14 (20:43):
No, I think it's a real problem, Nancy, because she
didn't fit.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
She goes by a boy's name and dresses like a boy.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
Yes, the problem is how people treat her because of that.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
But I mean, I don't know why you're the problem.
Isn't her going by a name, were dressing like a boy?
Speaker 1 (21:01):
The problem is she's watching people get murdered and kill
themselves online and she likes it. And the problem is
that it has become blase blase to her. She goes, oh,
I wonder what he's thinking about when he kills himself.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
She's not worried about the loss of human life. It's
like a game to her. But what also, what.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
Happened to the fact is she's fifteen and she's got
a twenty plus year old boyfriend.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
As a matter of.
Speaker 11 (21:29):
Fact, listen, police say rup Now has been texting with
a twenty year old Carl's Bad California man planning his
own mass attack. After police discovered the message, Alexander Paffendorf
was interviewed by the FBI, where he admitted that he
told rupp Now that he would arm himself with explosives
and a gun, and that he would target a government building.
(21:49):
No specific building was named. A California judge has issued
at her straining order under California's gun red flag law.
Neighbors say police entered his home carrying out a big
black gun box.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
Okay, well, Bria Johns, help me out here. What is
a twenty year old man doing texting and catching a bond.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
Land fifteen year own girl, Nancy?
Speaker 6 (22:12):
That is the million dollar question today, everyone wondering how
exactly these two even linked up in the first place.
We know that again as we just heard that California
and George, that California judge ordering that twenty year old
man from Carlsband to surrender all of his guns and
ammunition because he allegedly told Natalie Roughnow that he was
(22:34):
also planning some sort of attack on a government building.
Now we do know that the two were, according to
a least court records, collaborating for some sort of mass shooting.
Not sure how much input he could have potentially had
on what happened at Abundant Life, but we do know
these two.
Speaker 7 (22:50):
Were in communication.
Speaker 6 (22:51):
So my questions now were how long have they been
in communication and how exactly these two came together to
conspire some sort of.
Speaker 15 (22:59):
Mass Police say her social media posts are terrifying, and
a counseling to Reubnow showed an obsession with infamous past
school shooters, why some of emmesist ideologies, and even a
chilling message from the unibomber ted Kazinski. A manifesto allegedly
written by Rebnow shared his screenshots that show the teen
was lonely and felt quote trapped and forced into my
(23:19):
own corner. She admits she's a loner, but admits she
will mourn for her friends, but sooner rather than later
they'll leave. Investigators trying to verify the origins of the
manifesto being attributed to Natalie Samantha Rubnow. As part of
the so called manifesto or being shared around the world,
describing herself as a loner. Rebnow is able to express
unhappiness of what she describes as a broken home and
(23:42):
makes many references to a therapist. Investigators have been able
to uncover that Repno has seen a therapist and has
been involved in a contentious custodial situation with her parents
that had her splitting days of the week with each parent.
The supposed manifesto ends with a quote from the Unibomber
quote Finally one learns that born is a disease of civilization.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
Katherine Schweid joining Us, creator of the FBI's Active Shooter program, Katherine,
I just find it really hard to believe that the
parents had no idea what was going on and this
child's life. I mean, the theory of the idea of
a female teen girls school shooter is almost unheard of.
(24:28):
I've got a few examples, and they're usually because of
love interest.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
But how could you not know? For instance, she posts online.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
On a video of a man jumping through a window
that he is a quote fat version of Liam Payne,
referring to the One Direction singer who jumped to his
death in Buenos Autres. Okay, it goes on and on
and on, she's just very let me just say, frivolous
(24:59):
as it relays to the loss of human life. I
find that really difficult to believe that no one, I
mean they says she's going to a therapist. The therapist
didn't know what was going on. The parents didn't know,
the school didn't notice. Now people are dead.
Speaker 10 (25:15):
I think that what they I agree with you that
I think that what they noticed had nothing to do
with her online performance and platform. But they would have
noticed other things. They would have noticed her school performance dropping.
They would have noticed her isolation, the amount of time
she spent online, the amount of time that she spent
with her head buried in her phone, which is kind
(25:36):
of something that I'm sure every parent thinks, well, my
kid's always on the phone. Yeah, what are your what's
your kid on the phone doing?
Speaker 3 (25:42):
You know?
Speaker 10 (25:43):
And I think that's something that's important because I think
what you just said, sibylis is a great word. But
I think don't I would say, you know, don't overwhelmingly
look at a comment and say, oh, jeeve, that just
shows they have no heart or they're careless, because common
on social media are so un okay, and it's so sarcastic.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
Okay, I agree with you. Some perverse comments online. You're right,
that may mean nothing. People will send off a text
in a heartbeat and the wish they hadn't done it.
But these are a series of comments that were frivolously done,
commenting on the loss of human life, be it through
(26:26):
homicide or suicide.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
But okay, let's just pretend for the moment.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
Let's suspend our disbelief for just one moment that that
doesn't matter. Let's focus on her obsession with the so
called trench Coat mafia, the Columbine shooters listen.
Speaker 15 (26:43):
Police say her social media posts are terrifying, and a
counseling to rupt Now showed an obsession with infamous past
school shooters. Why some of emphasis ideologies and even a
chilling message from the unibomber ted Kazinski. Greenshots show the
teen was lonely and felt quote trapped and forced into
my own corner. She admits she's a loner, but admits
she will mourn for her friends, but sooner rather than later,
(27:06):
they'll leave. Rebnow is able to express unhappiness, it will
be broken home, and makes many references to a therapist.
Rebno has been involved in a contentious custodial situation with
her parents that had her splitting days of the week
with each parent. The supposed manifesto ends with a quote
from the Unibomber quote. Finally, one learns that boredom is
a disease of civilization, Robin Drake.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
That is not a coincidence that she is wearing the
same obscure shirt with an obscure German electory band on
it that a Columbine shooter war.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
It's not a coincidence.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
And she's taking target practice shooting at the time she's
wearing it, and that photo is posted all under the
nose of her father.
Speaker 8 (27:49):
I agree, it's not a coincidence. These things are following
a track of pattern in her life where she's romanticizing
about death, about dark imagery, and just talking about the
parents here and their involvement or lack of involvements. It's
strange that they put her in the school as well,
you know, trying to maybe shove off, you know, responsibility
(28:10):
of fixing what they might have seen as a broken
daughter as they're struggling with their own issues. So this
is a dark pattern of behavior that I think was
emerging over time that people were ignoring and try to
maybe shove off on someone else to fix too.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
Bria Jones joining us investigator report of Fox six Milwaukee.
What can you tell me about a photo that has
just emerged up now shooting an okay sign as some
people call it, but others call it a white supremacist
sign just before the shooting.
Speaker 7 (28:43):
Nancy, I've seen that image again.
Speaker 6 (28:45):
Police tonight working to verify the authenticity. But the image
that circulating online. They say that she actually took that
photo in the bathroom shortly before this shooting took place. Again,
Madison police is working to confirm the authenticity of that photo.
But again, just very scary. But it's easy to think
that she was seeing this therapist. She had this troubled
(29:07):
family life, but almost everyone we spoke to that have
some sort of contact with her, that has known her
over the years, even her neighbor saying that she was
always a kind and welcoming child, so she was able
to disguise whatever troubles she was deeply dealing with very well.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
Now we hear that the home of the Wisconsin seters'
parents has been rated straight out to you. Brid Jones
joining us Fox six what happened Nancy.
Speaker 6 (29:37):
Investigators blew out there the front door, and they immediately
went inside of the home. Our cameras are actually there
for several hours searching for evidence. We know right now
there actually they were able to collect some evidence that
they say will be crucial to determining any confirmed information
that what they're trying to work to verify. As far
as the manifesto, we know now we learned last night
(29:58):
that there were actually two guns they were found inside
of the school, but only one was used to carry
out this shooting at Abundant Life Christian School. So right now,
investigators say they're actually working to review and go over
any of that information or evidence or findings collected inside
of the home during that raid to work together to
(30:19):
figure out their.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
Investigation crime stories.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
With Nancy Grace, we are showing photos right now as
a little girl, even a baby, and everything seems so innocent,
so normal. How this went so off the rails. I
don't know that we'll ever know the answer to that,
(30:48):
but I do know in the raid that Bria Jones
is telling us about that law enforcement got electronics, computers, phones,
and many many other items that they went in for.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
Or what else did.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
They find in the home? Why are they writing the
parents home? And a new trend that is reverberating across
our country. Parents are increasingly being held accountable criminally for
their child school shooter. Remember Athan Crumley listen the.
Speaker 3 (31:21):
Oakland shooter the kids as the two parents that are
on the run right now, and said, you know Oakland,
Telly said, calls you see anything, And I just wanted
to go park my car and switch it around at
my office. And at my office and there was a
Kia and that looked like their car. And I walked
around and checked the plates, edits their car. And the
(31:43):
woman is here next to the car. The woman is
aware sitting next to her car in.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
The parking lot, straight out to veteran defense attorney Philip
Dubay joining us out of LA Philip holding the parents
criminally liable for their child's shooting up a school, their
child's murdyrs.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
That trend is increasing, it sure is.
Speaker 9 (32:08):
And I got to tell you, if I were the
rough Nows, I'd be lawyering up and I'd be hitting
up that school's collection plate Diar council right away. They are,
They've got a target on their back for lack of
a better term.
Speaker 3 (32:21):
What this ring?
Speaker 1 (32:22):
Wait a minute, did you hear that sound I just
played for you. A concerned citizen spots Ethan Crumley's parents
on the run. They knew the gig was up, they knew.
Why would they take off into hiding.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
I'll tell you why.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
I tell you if they did not feel they were
responsible or not guilty of something.
Speaker 8 (32:41):
No, no, no.
Speaker 9 (32:41):
If you remember from the trial, what came out in
evidence was that there were a series of death threats
made against the parents, so they were on the run
so that they would not be harmed. There were so
many people outraged and upset in the community that the
Crumbley's had a target on their back. That's why they
hit out.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
Okay, you know what.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
Apparently a jury did not agree with you too juries.
As a matter of fact, their cases were severed and
they were tried separately. So much came into evidence about
how the parents blatantly ignored their son. As a matter
of fact, listen to this, My son, he had.
Speaker 7 (33:19):
One bedroom and they got out of control.
Speaker 9 (33:22):
And every time I go to a plan that would
just shut the doors and want to be a little bit.
Speaker 3 (33:25):
So then I told him he could just use the
guy's bedroom so I can get his room deep cleaned.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
The horrible brushing his teeth, he used.
Speaker 7 (33:33):
The water quickly got him.
Speaker 5 (33:35):
He went brushed properly through.
Speaker 3 (33:36):
The classic get cavities and his braces.
Speaker 7 (33:39):
So we end up taking the wires out. And the
one time we had thirteen cavities under the.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
Braces, Doby, thirteen cavities up under the boys braces, thirteen cavities.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
They couldn't daily wasn't brushing his teeth.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
The room was so disgusting, it smelled, and they would
just shut the door and walk off. I mean you
add that into the fact that the child kept actually
asking I need help. That very morning you wrote a
series of documents drawings of shootings and murders and said
(34:18):
I need help. No one will help me. The first
victim to be a pretty girl. I'm on a shooter
in the hand. What nobody saw all of this happening.
Nobody knew he wasn't brushing his teeth or making his bed.
Nobody saw all of these drawings. The thoughts won't stop
(34:38):
help me, And you're saying the parents were improperly targeted.
Speaker 9 (34:44):
What I'm telling you is that identate decayed mouth. This
is not an element of involuntary manslaughter. The question is
what put them on notice to make criminally negligible.
Speaker 2 (34:54):
Tobay, do you have children? I'm just curious.
Speaker 9 (34:58):
This is why I don't right here. I don't want to.
Speaker 2 (35:02):
So you know nothing about taking a child to the
dentist and the doctor regular lee whether you think they've
got a problem or not. You know what, Obviously it's
a parent, doctor Angie. How does it lead to? It
shows they weren't paying attention to Ethan Cromley, and while
(35:23):
he is sitting.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
Into jail having just shot at the school, they hop
in the car and take off ninety mph.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
Wasn't because they had a target on their back.
Speaker 1 (35:31):
It's because they knew they were partially responsible, Doctor Angie.
Speaker 2 (35:37):
Can you talk to Dubey? I mean, Nancy.
Speaker 14 (35:40):
I've had cases of parents who are very, very doting,
attentive parents. They send their kid to the dentist and
all of a sudden he becomes an adult and he
hasn't had you do send the kid to the dentist
all day long.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
But if he's not brushing his teeth at night, guess
what he might have.
Speaker 14 (35:56):
Riting Decayne teeth. I've got a case like that that
I take care of and he hasn't shot up with school,
so it could it's possible that it could show neglect.
But if the boy also had braces on, that doesn't
show neglect.
Speaker 1 (36:10):
To Robin Drake joining me, Robin, apparently I'm not making
my case to doctor Angela Arnold or Philip D. Bay
that closing the door on your child's room that literally
stinks and not noticing that they're not brushing their teeth.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
This is not a grown man not brushing his teeth.
This is a child.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
And it takes a while to get thirteen cavities in
your mouth. But what about this regarding parental neglect?
Speaker 2 (36:46):
Listen.
Speaker 16 (36:47):
James Crumbley purchased a Sigsur nine millimeter Model SP twenty
twenty two from ACME Shooting Goods in Oxford, Michigan, on
November twenty six, twenty twenty one. A store employee confirms
that Ethan Crumbley was present with James at the time
of the purchase. Per statute, James Crumbley completed ATF Form
(37:10):
three hundred nine eight fifty three hundred nine eight honor
about November twenty six, twenty one, Ethan Crumbley's social media
posts revealed photos of the semi automatic handgun along with
the caption just got my new beauty today, including a
moji with hearts sig Sour nine millimeter and Robin.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
Then we learn that the very day of the school.
Speaker 1 (37:37):
Mass shooting, the parents are called to the school because
very disturbing drawings are found, drawings by Ethan Crumbley. So
Robin Drake, I'm not quite sure how Debay and doctor
Arnold are coming to the conclusion that the parents were
(37:58):
vigilant and borne no responsibility in Ethan Cromley's mass shooting.
Speaker 8 (38:03):
Well, what we're seeing here are data points and they're
all data points and leakage of neglect is what I
want to say, is so we have an arc of
behavior of these parents of and the mother said it
very specifically, and this is what I think the jury
saw too. She shut the door and didn't want to
deal with it, and that is exactly how they dealt
with everything. And what they did was that the father
(38:24):
did was so they didn't want to deal with it,
so they bought them a gun. And so that's why
the parents were held a couple in this and that's
why the juries found them guilty. And I think that's
what we're going to be looking at juries from now
on is how much are the parents responsible for those
actions and responsible for the neglect? What kind of data
points over time do we have the show?
Speaker 1 (38:41):
Catherine Schweiz joining Us, creator of the FBI's Active Shooter
Program and author of Stop the Killing, How to End
the Mass Shooting Crisis. Catherine, I've got to hear your
thoughts on Cromley's parents being hell libel by a jury criminally,
and they're so on school shooting.
Speaker 10 (39:01):
Yea, this wasn't I agree with you and disagree with
your other guests. It was absolutely not a situation of hey,
a few cavities. That's a lack of knowledge about the case.
And I appreciate that somebody doesn't everybody doesn't know about
the case. But in this case, half an hour after
the shooting, the mother texted her son and said, don't
(39:22):
do it. The parents were well aware that their son
was on a nose dive down bought him the gun
on Black Friday, you know, after Christmas, she went to
the shooting range with him. On Saturday posted a picture
bragging about how she was shooting. He posted the picture saying,
look at my new gun, my new Christmas present. Monday,
(39:44):
they were called, she was texted. The family was called
the school because he was in school searching to buy
ammunition on Monday, and they did not. They ignored the
school's call, and she texted her son and said, don't yet,
caught next time. And then on Tuesday morning when he
(40:04):
drew as you mentioned, he drew all over a piece
of paper in one a classroom and a teacher was
able to screen capture it and take it to the office,
and they called the parents of the office. The parents
never said, hey, we just bought this kid a gun.
They never said, hey, we just bought this kid a gun.
And two hours later he's exiting the bathroom shooting people.
Speaker 9 (40:24):
They knew what was going on.
Speaker 10 (40:26):
That's why they took cash out of the bank and
they were captured just a couple of miles from the
Canadian border.
Speaker 1 (40:32):
Catherine, what can you tell me about students obsessed even
now with Columbine making so called pilgrimages.
Speaker 10 (40:43):
Yeah, that you know the problem with a Combine case
is that it has become its own cult. You know,
it's like every other great cult movie or every other
great product. It has survived twenty plus years. Right of
people saying this is are there are sites now that
you can go to that are like, I want to
be a school shooter dot com kind of site, and
(41:05):
all of those are And it's not just like it
was in Colorado. You know where I where I'd spend
time with Frank Dangelis, who's a principal at Columbine. But
now the I've spent time over at the school and
you know, one of the things that Frank told me
that was most chilling to me is he said, you know,
we're standing outside looking at the lawn across the campus
and he says, hey, you know, the biggest problem that
(41:27):
we really really have on security is that we are
destination now for people who want to commit a shooting.
They pilgrimage here and they may just commit suicide on
our property of our school, but they may come here
see it so that they can pay homage to it,
and then they go and do their own shooting. I mean,
I tell people that you know, this abundant life school shooting.
(41:49):
They are members of the Association of Christian Schools International,
and I spoke to their fall group and their policy
group just a couple of months ago, and I tell
their security people. If somebody uses the words Columbine, you
hear parents, parents hear their kids use the word Columbine,
they have a problem. They have a potential school shooter
in their house. That may sound hysterical, but I think
(42:11):
it's factual based on what we've seen, because it's moved
from Colorado to the United States to the world.
Speaker 1 (42:15):
In a rarity in our country and really across the world.
A teen girl identified as a mass school shooter, very
very rare. Right now, we know her parents' home has
been rated. Her parents have not been charged in any wrongdoing,
and it's been reported they are cooperating with police. But
(42:40):
we do know she had a quote turbulent home life.
Speaker 2 (42:45):
Bria. What does that mean?
Speaker 1 (42:47):
Britand John's joining me Fox six Milwaukee. What does a
turbulent home life mean?
Speaker 7 (42:52):
Well, Nancy.
Speaker 6 (42:52):
Since twenty fourteen, court records show that her parents have
been married and divorced twice. We know from this alleged
manifesto the police are still working to verify whether or
not it actually came from her. We learned there that
obviously there is some trouble with the family life. The
thing we know according to court records as well, at
some point she was also seeing a therapist that was
(43:15):
also a reference in the manifesto that allegedly belongs to her,
so we know that she was seeing this therapist. We're
not exactly sure why. We know that the mom was
also ordered to participate in this therapy as well from
the court records. They also show that the parents split
their time with her, so at one point there was
a two two three schedule that she was sharing with
(43:36):
her parents. The latest information that I saw, I think
Tuesday night she was having dinner with mom, and then
at least one weekend a month a mom. She was
able to be placed with her mother, but we know
that primarily custody remained with her dad. They split custody,
but she was placed with her father. A neighbor we
went to the home where the raid happened, a neighbor
saying that her father sent her to this school because
(44:00):
he thought that this would be a better place for her,
So clearly her dad knew that something was going on.
Speaker 1 (44:04):
It seems to me that she has spent like two
nights with one parent, then three nights with the next,
and then it would rotate, so she was going from
pillar to post every week of her life. You know,
the same thing is alleged in the Culton Gray case,
recent school shooter that occurred in Georgia where he was
gifted a gun by his parents. There's Colt Gray right there.
(44:30):
He grew into a school shooter. The father in that
case has been charged in connection with the deaths caused
by his son a turbulent home life. As well to
doctor Eric Easton joining me board certified forensic pathologist. When
you go into a case and you are determining cause
(44:53):
of death, are you investigating the case forensically?
Speaker 2 (44:58):
Does it cross your mind?
Speaker 1 (45:00):
We see the same thing over and over and over,
and this life could have been saved had changes been made.
Speaker 7 (45:08):
I agree.
Speaker 13 (45:09):
Yeah, a lot of these desks are definitely could have
been prevented. And that's the interesting thing about forensicsthology. We
link up our findings from the autopsy and we work
with public health and other agencies to try and prevent
desks in the future. So we are saving lives even
though we don't actually see patients, but our autopsy information
(45:30):
can help prevent desks like these from occurring. So that's
another reason why I chose going into this the specialty.
Speaker 1 (45:35):
Guys, we wait as justice unfolds and again at this hour,
Rebno's parents have not been charged and are cooperating with
law enforcement.
Speaker 2 (45:47):
If you know or think you know anything about this case, please.
Speaker 1 (45:50):
Dial six zero eight two six six six zero one four,
including information about her so called boyfriend egging her on online.
At age twenty, Nancy Grace signing off goodbye friend
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, the girl school shooters, dark
online past links to odd and scary size like watch
people Die, and in the last hours has an accomplice
(00:23):
been identified?
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Good evening, I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank
you for being with us.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
Well.
Speaker 4 (00:29):
Wisconstant School is met with tragedy. A fifteen year old
student armed with a nine millimeter handgun shoots a student
and a teacher dead injuring six others.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Who is this girl, just fifteen years old, going down
in the history books as one of the very few
female school shooters. What possessed a teen girl to have
an obsession with dark and morbid, even gruesome websites?
Speaker 2 (01:02):
What if anything, did her parents know?
Speaker 1 (01:05):
As law enforcement desperately seeks a motive for a horrific
school shooting at a private Christian school, take a listen
to Police Chief Sean Barnes.
Speaker 5 (01:16):
Today at ten fifty seven am, our team was called
to the Abundant Life Christian School in reference to an
active shooter. We know that three people are dead, including
the suspect shooter. We know that the suspect shooter was
a teenage student who attended the school. Two other people
(01:38):
have died. That died were a teacher and a teenage student.
Six other people were injured. Two students are now in
critical condition in the hospital and these injuries are considered
life threatening injuries.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Why why, why did this happen?
Speaker 1 (02:00):
We're just seeing the chiefs and video from our friends
at Fox nine Minneapolis, Saint Paul joining me an all
star panel to make sense of what we are learning
this as.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
It emerges a much older.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Man that she apparently had met online may have planned
a simultaneous terror attack to go down at the same
time that she unleashed a heel of bullets and a
private Christian school.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Why is this happening? How is this happening?
Speaker 1 (02:31):
Straight out to Brian Jones joining us out of Milwaukee
investigative reporter Fox six in Milwaukee, Bria, thank you for
being with us. First of all, let's go back to
that moment and dissect what we know happened at the school.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
What happened when.
Speaker 6 (02:46):
Nancy authorready say on Monday that fifteen year old girl
we know Natalie Rubbnow they say she went by Samantha.
She opened fire inside of a study hall classroom at
Abundant Life Christian School. The school is K through twelve,
about four hundred students.
Speaker 7 (03:01):
This is a private Christian school.
Speaker 6 (03:02):
We know that ultimately she shot and killed two people,
a fourteen year old girl who has been identified as
Ruby Bergara, as well as a forty two year old
teacher that was identified.
Speaker 7 (03:12):
As Aaron West.
Speaker 6 (03:13):
Now we know that there are six other people who
were also shot. Late last night, there was not a
press conference. I was actually at the school yesterday. There
was not a press conference, but around nine o'clock we
did receive an update from the police chief that at
least four of these victims have been released from the hospital,
two of them still in critical condition, fighting for their lives.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
Today, let's straight out to you, Robin Drake, behavior expert,
former FBI Special Agent for My Purposes, chief of the
FBI counter Intelligence Behavioral Analysis Program, author of Sizing People
Up and Unbreakable Alliances.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
Robin, we always look to why.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
Of course that's not required in a court of law,
but could I just point to what we are learning
about a sick website that she seemingly was obsessed with,
called Watch People Die. Apparently there are over three million
people in all that have ever visited this website.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
It's graphic. It's upsetting.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
It's people getting shot to death, run over, killed, beheaded
in school. It includes videos of international incidents like the
horrible Isis beheadings we saw over and over and over
and worse. If you can imagine why as a fifteen
(04:36):
year old girl visiting sites like that, why did she
have access to a gun? Why is she wearing a
shirt almost identical to the one worn by a Columbine
shooter that features some German electro band on it. She
obviously was obsessed with them too, And how come nobody
(04:56):
knew anything about it? I find that really hard to believe.
Speaker 8 (05:00):
Well, Nancy, you just hit all the motives right there.
That police said they're going to be looking for. These
things just don't happen. They don't go from zero to
I'm a great kid today to I'm going to kill
people tomorrow. They are groomed into violence, they're desensitized the violence.
The fact that a twenty year old is corresponding with her.
Speaker 1 (05:21):
I do not believe that the parents groomed her violence.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
I don't No, I don't mean at.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
School, this tiny, ety bed Christian school. They did not
groom her into violence. So who are you saying groomed
her into violence.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
You think the parents went.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
On a whip looks up beheadings by isis Nope.
Speaker 8 (05:42):
So this Columbine effect that happened ever since the Columbine shooting,
there's a subculture out there of these people and you've
noted them on social media that are are just groomed
into this. When you are feeling disenfranchised, when you're feeling
like you're bullied, or you're going through some traumatic things
that home, and you're looking to feel connected somewhere, this
is where some of these teenagers are going. And so
(06:04):
that's where she was groomed into violence. And so this
twenty year old, it's part of this network in some way,
and I think we're going to seeing a lot more
tendrils come out from there. And so that's what I
meant about grooming. It wasn't the parents or anyone in
her immediate circle where she was at, because she was
pretty disconnected from what we're hearing.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
Philip Dubay joining me, a high profile defense attorney joining
us out of La Philip, just take off your defense
hat for just one moment. I want to analyze what
the chief just said. We don't know about her disciplinary
records because we don't have those records.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
What have they ever heard of a subpoena?
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Get the records. This is a murder investigation. It's not
hard to write out a subpoena duke is taken, which
is basically a subpoena not for your testimony, but for
your documents.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
I want to know what the school knew.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
Because in this most recent Georgia's shooting, remember that that
shooter had but just transferred to the Georgia school. And
what the Georgia School did not have was his eight
inch thick file on disciplinary problems from his old school.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
So I don't want to hear we don't have the
records and get the records.
Speaker 9 (07:17):
No, I agree with you. The problem is is I
think there are two types of records that are kept
by the school. They have what's called your official record
that the district has and the school has right there
on the premises. And then they have what we call
your traveling file, meaning it contains all the notes from teachers,
from the nurses as opposed to your academic progress, any
(07:38):
special needs that you might have in the school. If
the traveling file doesn't make it to your next school,
then the new school has no knowledge of your history.
So I think there should be a change of the law.
Speaker 7 (07:48):
That your bullshit.
Speaker 9 (07:50):
Get your traveling.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
File, Debay, you're trying to compare this to the cult
great case where there was a mass shooting in a
school in Georgia where the file didn't follow him.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
That is so lame.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
Why would you have a student in your school that
could be a security.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Risk because and you don't know what you think is
you don't have the file.
Speaker 9 (08:12):
Welcome to the twenty first century. This is what happens.
One hand doesn't know what the other is doing. It's terrible.
You get the official record, but you don't get the
traveling file that has nurses notes, complaints from other teachers,
complaints from other kids. Instead, you just have an academic
profile of how the kid is doing scholastically. It's a
breakdown in communication between the schools. So what does this mean.
(08:35):
It means that we need to change in the law.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
Well, you know what, You can tell that to the
families of the two dead victims joining right now. In
addition to Bria Jones, Robin Drake and Philip Debay, Katherine Schweid.
Katherine Schweid, the creator of the FBI's Active Shooter Program.
Former Chicago prosecutor, career FBI special agent who authored Stop
(08:58):
the Killing, How to End the Mass Shooting Crisis, and
How to Talk about Guns to Anyone. Catherine, thank you
for being with us. This sounds like a broken record.
After the Georgia mass shooting in a school, it was
highlighted the significance of getting records from the previous school.
(09:21):
Now what group now's records show? I don't know that,
but I think it's a huge dear election and duty
for the current school not to insist on those before
they allow students in.
Speaker 10 (09:33):
No, I'm with you on thatt Nancy. You know you
have to know what's coming. And I'll tell you. I
live in Virginia, Northern Virginia about I don't know, a
few blocks away from the shooter who shot up Virginia
Tech High School or Virginia Tech University and his that
shooter went to my kids school where my two kids
(09:54):
went to high school, and that shooter at Virginia Tech
had problems in high school. That information was never passed
to Virginia Tech, and then Virginia Tech had no idea
that this kid had all kinds of issues when he
was in high school. What happened after that is that
(10:14):
the state legislature changed the law and said information has
to pass from school to school. And we have seen
this in a lot of cases where a shooter moves
up and not just a shooter, right, but another student
who's got violent ideation. They move from one school to
another because they're kicked out of one school or kicked
out of another. I will say this school is a
(10:35):
twelve two K school, so I think we have to
verify exactly how long she's been there. But absolutely, you're right,
the records have to move with because there isn't a
way for the teachers to know what they're dealing with
and whether this is an explosive kid or whether this
kid is buried in their own world and going to
cause a problem that isn't going to have we don't
(10:56):
know about.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
Actually, you said that they've got to know whether the
kid has quote buried in their own world. I don't
know how they have access to a student, a child's
social media be goes. I had to tell you something,
Drake Robin Drake FBI behavioral analysis expert. According to what
we're learning now, she allegedly posted under the user name
(11:18):
Crossixer cross sixer and commenting on a video suicide saying
gotta be thinking of something while hanging himself. She writes,
I wonder what a lot of people think before they die,
you know.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Like just simply if it's they want to die.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
At all, or just nothing, or perhaps just sex or
something stupid. One thing I would bother.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
To think is just do it already if I was
killing myself. But I guess it depends on the situation.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
It goes on and on, Robin Drake, she's commenting so casually,
almost flippantly about homicide and suicide.
Speaker 8 (12:03):
Yeah, there's a lot of idolization going there, and it's
extremely sad that there's not more observation going on with
her from her parents. I mean, the parents' culpability in
this is going to be really interesting as it comes out.
And the big thing here access to firearms, kids and
individuals that are showing a pattern of behavior over time,
because again I said, this doesn't go from zero to
(12:25):
one hundred. Access to firearms is really key and critical.
How does someone like this have it? They shouldn't and
she shouldn't.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
Crime stories with Nancy Grace, Brian Jones joining us Fox
six Milwaukee.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
What if anything, do we know about her manifesto? Why
is a fifteen year old girl writing a manifesto anyway?
An evil manifesto likely about death, bitterness, anger, and nobody
notice that when.
Speaker 6 (13:05):
Azi At this point, the big thing is that the
police chief, the mayor of Madison, they're all saying that
they want to avoid misinformation. They're trying to verify exactly
where this alleged manifesto came from.
Speaker 7 (13:16):
A lot of concerning words in there.
Speaker 6 (13:18):
We could see there's obviously some trouble with the family
coming from this manifesto as well if it's actually from her.
Speaker 7 (13:25):
Right now, the big thing the police chief.
Speaker 6 (13:26):
They're saying they're just working to confirm investigating where exactly
this document came from. We know they executed a search
warrant at her home. That's where they say they retrieved
some information that could be vital to determining the authenticity
of that alleged manifesto.
Speaker 11 (13:43):
A second grade teacher at Abundant Life Christian School in Madison, Wisconsin,
calls nine one one at ten fifty seven am to
report an active shooter inside a study hall classroom at
the private Christian School inside the study hall, class students
from several different grades dive for cover.
Speaker 12 (14:00):
A deputy with the Dane County Sheriff's Office is first
to arrive on the scene, followed twenty four seconds later
by a Madison police officer, and they immediately enter the school.
Inside the school, officers report the shooter is down and
the weapon has been recovered.
Speaker 4 (14:14):
Fifteen year old Natalie rubbnow also known as Sam has
a troubled and turbulent home life. It all comes to
a boiling point one Monday morning as gunshots ring out
in the abundant life Christian schools hallways, saying a.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
Turbulent home life.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
The parents were divorced and remarried, and divorced and remarried.
Then they have her going back and forth between homes
like every two or three days. I would be more
worried because both parents seem to be loving there. She
is getting a karate belt about her sick obsession with
(14:52):
watching people die online and the fact that she is
apparently courting online with a year old.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
Throw in a gun.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
And target practice with an obsession with Columbine.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
And you have a school shooting in the making.
Speaker 11 (15:10):
Listen Madison fire department arrives on the scene to begin
providing immediate care and treatment of the wounded. Of the
eight people who are shot, four people are transported to
SSM Health Saint Mary's Hospital and three are transported to
University of Wisconsin Hospitals. One of those victims dies on
the way to the hospital, and one of the gunshot
victims is pronounced dead at the scene.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
Joining us as are now Medical Examiner Board certified forensic
pathologist doctor Eric Asen, doctor Ason. I've been thinking about
the victims in this case and all the many near victims.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Their deaths were very likely not instant. Explained well, A
lot of.
Speaker 13 (15:55):
It depends on where the gunshot wounds were located on
the body. If you have a wound to the head,
it's probably going to be pretty quick, but wounds to
the chest or even to the abdomen, oftentimes death doesn't
occur immediately at that point in time. You're going to
have to have a time period where blood loss occurs
and then death will occur. And then we also have
(16:16):
victims that are still in the hospital right now and
hopefully they'll make it, but their injuries are pretty serious.
But it just really all depends on how many times
each individual shot and the location of the wounds and
the organs that were damaged.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
When someone is bleeding out, like we believe the victims
did in this case, you've got a teacher trying to
protect your students, you've got another student. You don't immediately
lose consciousness unless you're shot in the heart or the head.
You lie there and no, you're dying as you hear
(16:50):
all the commotion around you and gunshots ringing out and
students screaming.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
You are aware of that.
Speaker 13 (16:58):
Would have been very scarious. Deep state of despair is
what you would have been going through at the time. Yes,
for sure.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
Who is this girl?
Speaker 1 (17:07):
Extremely rare for there to be a female school shooter,
a teen girl, very statistically unlikely.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
Who is she? Listen?
Speaker 11 (17:20):
Fifteen year old Natalie Upnow known as Sam is identified
as the shooter. She is a student at the school
and fired off multiple rounds inside the classroom. Repnow dies
from an apparent self inflicted gunshot wound before law enforcement
breaches the building. No shots are exchanged between law enforcement
and the teen. Sources say Repnow is known for wearing
a collared shirt with a tie, jeans, and combat boots
(17:42):
to school and pounding energy.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
Drinks straight out to Angela Arnold. Doctor Arnold, a renowned psychiatrist,
joining us out of the Atlanta jurisdiction, Doctor Angie. Wouldn't
the parents know or shouldn't the parents know if she
had a much older boyfriend she says is from Germany?
Speaker 14 (18:02):
I mean, Nancy, wouldn't the parents have known about any
of this? The way she dresses, I mean, all of this,
all of this indicates to me that no one was
paying enough attention to her.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
She's I don't understand what the problem is with her
wearing a white collared shirt with a tie.
Speaker 14 (18:25):
What well, why is she going by Sam instead of
her actual name Natalie? At a very small conservative Christian school.
She is as far as I'm concerned, she is completely
out of place in the school. Okay, probably the parents
have put her there out of some sort of because,
(18:46):
like you said, we don't have her records.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
But she's probably there.
Speaker 14 (18:49):
Because she's been so troubled that they thought, okay, if
we put her in this small school, maybe they can
help her. But you can't go back and forth between parents'
homes and have different because if parents aren't married, Nancy,
I don't care how loving they appear.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
They're not getting along.
Speaker 14 (19:07):
Okay, So she's going back and forth between parents home
several times a week. She can get away with anything
she wants to get away with Number one and number
two she's looking for someone to attach to. They're in
the online boyfriend thing.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Okay.
Speaker 14 (19:25):
This girl is fraught. She was fraught with so many issues.
I can't even believe that they were ignored by her parents.
And I'm telling you, Nancy, that's where this starts, is
with the parents.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
I'm very Let me just see flummoxed by the fact
that you say, because she goes by the name sam
for Samantha, which of course is not her name, or
name's Natalie. Now, because she wears a white collared shirt
and a black tie, you think she has problems because
(19:59):
she dresses.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
Like a boy and goes by a boy's name.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
I don't see that that is inherently a problem.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
I was a tomboy. I didn't have a problem, so.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
What Well, there are a lot of different names for this,
but I don't see this as being her problems. I
would see that as being the school's problem for allowing
her to be bullied because of the way she dresses,
or because she uses a boy's name.
Speaker 14 (20:26):
How do we know she was being bullied?
Speaker 2 (20:27):
Well, you can't knows, doctor Angie.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
You can't say she's the problem because she dresses way
by a boy's name.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
But yet she wasn't bullied. You actually know that she
was bullied. We don't know she was bullied.
Speaker 14 (20:39):
And I'll tell you something, Nancy.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
Then it's not a problem, is it. Oh?
Speaker 14 (20:43):
No, I think it's a real problem, Nancy, because she
didn't fit.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
She goes by a boy's name and dresses like a boy.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
Yes, the problem is how people treat her because of that.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
But I mean, I don't know why you're the problem.
Isn't her going by a name, were dressing like a boy?
Speaker 1 (21:01):
The problem is she's watching people get murdered and kill
themselves online and she likes it. And the problem is
that it has become blase blase to her. She goes, oh,
I wonder what he's thinking about when he kills himself.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
She's not worried about the loss of human life. It's
like a game to her. But what also, what.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
Happened to the fact is she's fifteen and she's got
a twenty plus year old boyfriend.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
As a matter of.
Speaker 11 (21:29):
Fact, listen, police say rup Now has been texting with
a twenty year old Carl's Bad California man planning his
own mass attack. After police discovered the message, Alexander Paffendorf
was interviewed by the FBI, where he admitted that he
told rupp Now that he would arm himself with explosives
and a gun, and that he would target a government building.
(21:49):
No specific building was named. A California judge has issued
at her straining order under California's gun red flag law.
Neighbors say police entered his home carrying out a big
black gun box.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
Okay, well, Bria Johns, help me out here. What is
a twenty year old man doing texting and catching a bond.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
Land fifteen year own girl, Nancy?
Speaker 6 (22:12):
That is the million dollar question today, everyone wondering how
exactly these two even linked up in the first place.
We know that again as we just heard that California
and George, that California judge ordering that twenty year old
man from Carlsband to surrender all of his guns and
ammunition because he allegedly told Natalie Roughnow that he was
(22:34):
also planning some sort of attack on a government building.
Now we do know that the two were, according to
a least court records, collaborating for some sort of mass shooting.
Not sure how much input he could have potentially had
on what happened at Abundant Life, but we do know
these two.
Speaker 7 (22:50):
Were in communication.
Speaker 6 (22:51):
So my questions now were how long have they been
in communication and how exactly these two came together to
conspire some sort of.
Speaker 15 (22:59):
Mass Police say her social media posts are terrifying, and
a counseling to Reubnow showed an obsession with infamous past
school shooters, why some of emmesist ideologies, and even a
chilling message from the unibomber ted Kazinski. A manifesto allegedly
written by Rebnow shared his screenshots that show the teen
was lonely and felt quote trapped and forced into my
(23:19):
own corner. She admits she's a loner, but admits she
will mourn for her friends, but sooner rather than later
they'll leave. Investigators trying to verify the origins of the
manifesto being attributed to Natalie Samantha Rubnow. As part of
the so called manifesto or being shared around the world,
describing herself as a loner. Rebnow is able to express
unhappiness of what she describes as a broken home and
(23:42):
makes many references to a therapist. Investigators have been able
to uncover that Repno has seen a therapist and has
been involved in a contentious custodial situation with her parents
that had her splitting days of the week with each parent.
The supposed manifesto ends with a quote from the Unibomber
quote Finally one learns that born is a disease of civilization.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
Katherine Schweid joining Us, creator of the FBI's Active Shooter program, Katherine,
I just find it really hard to believe that the
parents had no idea what was going on and this
child's life. I mean, the theory of the idea of
a female teen girls school shooter is almost unheard of.
(24:28):
I've got a few examples, and they're usually because of
love interest.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
But how could you not know? For instance, she posts online.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
On a video of a man jumping through a window
that he is a quote fat version of Liam Payne,
referring to the One Direction singer who jumped to his
death in Buenos Autres. Okay, it goes on and on
and on, she's just very let me just say, frivolous
(24:59):
as it relays to the loss of human life. I
find that really difficult to believe that no one, I
mean they says she's going to a therapist. The therapist
didn't know what was going on. The parents didn't know,
the school didn't notice. Now people are dead.
Speaker 10 (25:15):
I think that what they I agree with you that
I think that what they noticed had nothing to do
with her online performance and platform. But they would have
noticed other things. They would have noticed her school performance dropping.
They would have noticed her isolation, the amount of time
she spent online, the amount of time that she spent
with her head buried in her phone, which is kind
(25:36):
of something that I'm sure every parent thinks, well, my
kid's always on the phone. Yeah, what are your what's
your kid on the phone doing?
Speaker 3 (25:42):
You know?
Speaker 10 (25:43):
And I think that's something that's important because I think
what you just said, sibylis is a great word. But
I think don't I would say, you know, don't overwhelmingly
look at a comment and say, oh, jeeve, that just
shows they have no heart or they're careless, because common
on social media are so un okay, and it's so sarcastic.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
Okay, I agree with you. Some perverse comments online. You're right,
that may mean nothing. People will send off a text
in a heartbeat and the wish they hadn't done it.
But these are a series of comments that were frivolously done,
commenting on the loss of human life, be it through
(26:26):
homicide or suicide.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
But okay, let's just pretend for the moment.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
Let's suspend our disbelief for just one moment that that
doesn't matter. Let's focus on her obsession with the so
called trench Coat mafia, the Columbine shooters listen.
Speaker 15 (26:43):
Police say her social media posts are terrifying, and a
counseling to rupt Now showed an obsession with infamous past
school shooters. Why some of emphasis ideologies and even a
chilling message from the unibomber ted Kazinski. Greenshots show the
teen was lonely and felt quote trapped and forced into
my own corner. She admits she's a loner, but admits
she will mourn for her friends, but sooner rather than later,
(27:06):
they'll leave. Rebnow is able to express unhappiness, it will
be broken home, and makes many references to a therapist.
Rebno has been involved in a contentious custodial situation with
her parents that had her splitting days of the week
with each parent. The supposed manifesto ends with a quote
from the Unibomber quote. Finally, one learns that boredom is
a disease of civilization, Robin Drake.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
That is not a coincidence that she is wearing the
same obscure shirt with an obscure German electory band on
it that a Columbine shooter war.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
It's not a coincidence.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
And she's taking target practice shooting at the time she's
wearing it, and that photo is posted all under the
nose of her father.
Speaker 8 (27:49):
I agree, it's not a coincidence. These things are following
a track of pattern in her life where she's romanticizing
about death, about dark imagery, and just talking about the
parents here and their involvement or lack of involvements. It's
strange that they put her in the school as well,
you know, trying to maybe shove off, you know, responsibility
(28:10):
of fixing what they might have seen as a broken
daughter as they're struggling with their own issues. So this
is a dark pattern of behavior that I think was
emerging over time that people were ignoring and try to
maybe shove off on someone else to fix too.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
Bria Jones joining us investigator report of Fox six Milwaukee.
What can you tell me about a photo that has
just emerged up now shooting an okay sign as some
people call it, but others call it a white supremacist
sign just before the shooting.
Speaker 7 (28:43):
Nancy, I've seen that image again.
Speaker 6 (28:45):
Police tonight working to verify the authenticity. But the image
that circulating online. They say that she actually took that
photo in the bathroom shortly before this shooting took place. Again,
Madison police is working to confirm the authenticity of that photo.
But again, just very scary. But it's easy to think
that she was seeing this therapist. She had this troubled
(29:07):
family life, but almost everyone we spoke to that have
some sort of contact with her, that has known her
over the years, even her neighbor saying that she was
always a kind and welcoming child, so she was able
to disguise whatever troubles she was deeply dealing with very well.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
Now we hear that the home of the Wisconsin seters'
parents has been rated straight out to you. Brid Jones
joining us Fox six what happened Nancy.
Speaker 6 (29:37):
Investigators blew out there the front door, and they immediately
went inside of the home. Our cameras are actually there
for several hours searching for evidence. We know right now
there actually they were able to collect some evidence that
they say will be crucial to determining any confirmed information
that what they're trying to work to verify. As far
as the manifesto, we know now we learned last night
(29:58):
that there were actually two guns they were found inside
of the school, but only one was used to carry
out this shooting at Abundant Life Christian School. So right now,
investigators say they're actually working to review and go over
any of that information or evidence or findings collected inside
of the home during that raid to work together to
(30:19):
figure out their.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
Investigation crime stories.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
With Nancy Grace, we are showing photos right now as
a little girl, even a baby, and everything seems so innocent,
so normal. How this went so off the rails. I
don't know that we'll ever know the answer to that,
(30:48):
but I do know in the raid that Bria Jones
is telling us about that law enforcement got electronics, computers, phones,
and many many other items that they went in for.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
Or what else did.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
They find in the home? Why are they writing the
parents home? And a new trend that is reverberating across
our country. Parents are increasingly being held accountable criminally for
their child school shooter. Remember Athan Crumley listen the.
Speaker 3 (31:21):
Oakland shooter the kids as the two parents that are
on the run right now, and said, you know Oakland,
Telly said, calls you see anything, And I just wanted
to go park my car and switch it around at
my office. And at my office and there was a
Kia and that looked like their car. And I walked
around and checked the plates, edits their car. And the
(31:43):
woman is here next to the car. The woman is
aware sitting next to her car in.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
The parking lot, straight out to veteran defense attorney Philip
Dubay joining us out of LA Philip holding the parents
criminally liable for their child's shooting up a school, their
child's murdyrs.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
That trend is increasing, it sure is.
Speaker 9 (32:08):
And I got to tell you, if I were the
rough Nows, I'd be lawyering up and I'd be hitting
up that school's collection plate Diar council right away. They are,
They've got a target on their back for lack of
a better term.
Speaker 3 (32:21):
What this ring?
Speaker 1 (32:22):
Wait a minute, did you hear that sound I just
played for you. A concerned citizen spots Ethan Crumley's parents
on the run. They knew the gig was up, they knew.
Why would they take off into hiding.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
I'll tell you why.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
I tell you if they did not feel they were
responsible or not guilty of something.
Speaker 8 (32:41):
No, no, no.
Speaker 9 (32:41):
If you remember from the trial, what came out in
evidence was that there were a series of death threats
made against the parents, so they were on the run
so that they would not be harmed. There were so
many people outraged and upset in the community that the
Crumbley's had a target on their back. That's why they
hit out.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
Okay, you know what.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
Apparently a jury did not agree with you too juries.
As a matter of fact, their cases were severed and
they were tried separately. So much came into evidence about
how the parents blatantly ignored their son. As a matter
of fact, listen to this, My son, he had.
Speaker 7 (33:19):
One bedroom and they got out of control.
Speaker 9 (33:22):
And every time I go to a plan that would
just shut the doors and want to be a little bit.
Speaker 3 (33:25):
So then I told him he could just use the
guy's bedroom so I can get his room deep cleaned.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
The horrible brushing his teeth, he used.
Speaker 7 (33:33):
The water quickly got him.
Speaker 5 (33:35):
He went brushed properly through.
Speaker 3 (33:36):
The classic get cavities and his braces.
Speaker 7 (33:39):
So we end up taking the wires out. And the
one time we had thirteen cavities under the.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
Braces, Doby, thirteen cavities up under the boys braces, thirteen cavities.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
They couldn't daily wasn't brushing his teeth.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
The room was so disgusting, it smelled, and they would
just shut the door and walk off. I mean you
add that into the fact that the child kept actually
asking I need help. That very morning you wrote a
series of documents drawings of shootings and murders and said
(34:18):
I need help. No one will help me. The first
victim to be a pretty girl. I'm on a shooter
in the hand. What nobody saw all of this happening.
Nobody knew he wasn't brushing his teeth or making his bed.
Nobody saw all of these drawings. The thoughts won't stop
(34:38):
help me, And you're saying the parents were improperly targeted.
Speaker 9 (34:44):
What I'm telling you is that identate decayed mouth. This
is not an element of involuntary manslaughter. The question is
what put them on notice to make criminally negligible.
Speaker 2 (34:54):
Tobay, do you have children? I'm just curious.
Speaker 9 (34:58):
This is why I don't right here. I don't want to.
Speaker 2 (35:02):
So you know nothing about taking a child to the
dentist and the doctor regular lee whether you think they've
got a problem or not. You know what, Obviously it's
a parent, doctor Angie. How does it lead to? It
shows they weren't paying attention to Ethan Cromley, and while
(35:23):
he is sitting.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
Into jail having just shot at the school, they hop
in the car and take off ninety mph.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
Wasn't because they had a target on their back.
Speaker 1 (35:31):
It's because they knew they were partially responsible, Doctor Angie.
Speaker 2 (35:37):
Can you talk to Dubey? I mean, Nancy.
Speaker 14 (35:40):
I've had cases of parents who are very, very doting,
attentive parents. They send their kid to the dentist and
all of a sudden he becomes an adult and he
hasn't had you do send the kid to the dentist
all day long.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
But if he's not brushing his teeth at night, guess
what he might have.
Speaker 14 (35:56):
Riting Decayne teeth. I've got a case like that that
I take care of and he hasn't shot up with school,
so it could it's possible that it could show neglect.
But if the boy also had braces on, that doesn't
show neglect.
Speaker 1 (36:10):
To Robin Drake joining me, Robin, apparently I'm not making
my case to doctor Angela Arnold or Philip D. Bay
that closing the door on your child's room that literally
stinks and not noticing that they're not brushing their teeth.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
This is not a grown man not brushing his teeth.
This is a child.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
And it takes a while to get thirteen cavities in
your mouth. But what about this regarding parental neglect?
Speaker 2 (36:46):
Listen.
Speaker 16 (36:47):
James Crumbley purchased a Sigsur nine millimeter Model SP twenty
twenty two from ACME Shooting Goods in Oxford, Michigan, on
November twenty six, twenty twenty one. A store employee confirms
that Ethan Crumbley was present with James at the time
of the purchase. Per statute, James Crumbley completed ATF Form
(37:10):
three hundred nine eight fifty three hundred nine eight honor
about November twenty six, twenty one, Ethan Crumbley's social media
posts revealed photos of the semi automatic handgun along with
the caption just got my new beauty today, including a
moji with hearts sig Sour nine millimeter and Robin.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
Then we learn that the very day of the school.
Speaker 1 (37:37):
Mass shooting, the parents are called to the school because
very disturbing drawings are found, drawings by Ethan Crumbley. So
Robin Drake, I'm not quite sure how Debay and doctor
Arnold are coming to the conclusion that the parents were
(37:58):
vigilant and borne no responsibility in Ethan Cromley's mass shooting.
Speaker 8 (38:03):
Well, what we're seeing here are data points and they're
all data points and leakage of neglect is what I
want to say, is so we have an arc of
behavior of these parents of and the mother said it
very specifically, and this is what I think the jury
saw too. She shut the door and didn't want to
deal with it, and that is exactly how they dealt
with everything. And what they did was that the father
(38:24):
did was so they didn't want to deal with it,
so they bought them a gun. And so that's why
the parents were held a couple in this and that's
why the juries found them guilty. And I think that's
what we're going to be looking at juries from now
on is how much are the parents responsible for those
actions and responsible for the neglect? What kind of data
points over time do we have the show?
Speaker 1 (38:41):
Catherine Schweiz joining Us, creator of the FBI's Active Shooter
Program and author of Stop the Killing, How to End
the Mass Shooting Crisis. Catherine, I've got to hear your
thoughts on Cromley's parents being hell libel by a jury criminally,
and they're so on school shooting.
Speaker 10 (39:01):
Yea, this wasn't I agree with you and disagree with
your other guests. It was absolutely not a situation of hey,
a few cavities. That's a lack of knowledge about the case.
And I appreciate that somebody doesn't everybody doesn't know about
the case. But in this case, half an hour after
the shooting, the mother texted her son and said, don't
(39:22):
do it. The parents were well aware that their son
was on a nose dive down bought him the gun
on Black Friday, you know, after Christmas, she went to
the shooting range with him. On Saturday posted a picture
bragging about how she was shooting. He posted the picture saying,
look at my new gun, my new Christmas present. Monday,
(39:44):
they were called, she was texted. The family was called
the school because he was in school searching to buy
ammunition on Monday, and they did not. They ignored the
school's call, and she texted her son and said, don't yet,
caught next time. And then on Tuesday morning when he
(40:04):
drew as you mentioned, he drew all over a piece
of paper in one a classroom and a teacher was
able to screen capture it and take it to the office,
and they called the parents of the office. The parents
never said, hey, we just bought this kid a gun.
They never said, hey, we just bought this kid a gun.
And two hours later he's exiting the bathroom shooting people.
Speaker 9 (40:24):
They knew what was going on.
Speaker 10 (40:26):
That's why they took cash out of the bank and
they were captured just a couple of miles from the
Canadian border.
Speaker 1 (40:32):
Catherine, what can you tell me about students obsessed even
now with Columbine making so called pilgrimages.
Speaker 10 (40:43):
Yeah, that you know the problem with a Combine case
is that it has become its own cult. You know,
it's like every other great cult movie or every other
great product. It has survived twenty plus years. Right of
people saying this is are there are sites now that
you can go to that are like, I want to
be a school shooter dot com kind of site, and
(41:05):
all of those are And it's not just like it
was in Colorado. You know where I where I'd spend
time with Frank Dangelis, who's a principal at Columbine. But
now the I've spent time over at the school and
you know, one of the things that Frank told me
that was most chilling to me is he said, you know,
we're standing outside looking at the lawn across the campus
and he says, hey, you know, the biggest problem that
(41:27):
we really really have on security is that we are
destination now for people who want to commit a shooting.
They pilgrimage here and they may just commit suicide on
our property of our school, but they may come here
see it so that they can pay homage to it,
and then they go and do their own shooting. I mean,
I tell people that you know, this abundant life school shooting.
(41:49):
They are members of the Association of Christian Schools International,
and I spoke to their fall group and their policy
group just a couple of months ago, and I tell
their security people. If somebody uses the words Columbine, you
hear parents, parents hear their kids use the word Columbine,
they have a problem. They have a potential school shooter
in their house. That may sound hysterical, but I think
(42:11):
it's factual based on what we've seen, because it's moved
from Colorado to the United States to the world.
Speaker 1 (42:15):
In a rarity in our country and really across the world.
A teen girl identified as a mass school shooter, very
very rare. Right now, we know her parents' home has
been rated. Her parents have not been charged in any wrongdoing,
and it's been reported they are cooperating with police. But
(42:40):
we do know she had a quote turbulent home life.
Speaker 2 (42:45):
Bria. What does that mean?
Speaker 1 (42:47):
Britand John's joining me Fox six Milwaukee. What does a
turbulent home life mean?
Speaker 7 (42:52):
Well, Nancy.
Speaker 6 (42:52):
Since twenty fourteen, court records show that her parents have
been married and divorced twice. We know from this alleged
manifesto the police are still working to verify whether or
not it actually came from her. We learned there that
obviously there is some trouble with the family life. The
thing we know according to court records as well, at
some point she was also seeing a therapist that was
(43:15):
also a reference in the manifesto that allegedly belongs to her,
so we know that she was seeing this therapist. We're
not exactly sure why. We know that the mom was
also ordered to participate in this therapy as well from
the court records. They also show that the parents split
their time with her, so at one point there was
a two two three schedule that she was sharing with
(43:36):
her parents. The latest information that I saw, I think
Tuesday night she was having dinner with mom, and then
at least one weekend a month a mom. She was
able to be placed with her mother, but we know
that primarily custody remained with her dad. They split custody,
but she was placed with her father. A neighbor we
went to the home where the raid happened, a neighbor
saying that her father sent her to this school because
(44:00):
he thought that this would be a better place for her,
So clearly her dad knew that something was going on.
Speaker 1 (44:04):
It seems to me that she has spent like two
nights with one parent, then three nights with the next,
and then it would rotate, so she was going from
pillar to post every week of her life. You know,
the same thing is alleged in the Culton Gray case,
recent school shooter that occurred in Georgia where he was
gifted a gun by his parents. There's Colt Gray right there.
(44:30):
He grew into a school shooter. The father in that
case has been charged in connection with the deaths caused
by his son a turbulent home life. As well to
doctor Eric Easton joining me board certified forensic pathologist. When
you go into a case and you are determining cause
(44:53):
of death, are you investigating the case forensically?
Speaker 2 (44:58):
Does it cross your mind?
Speaker 1 (45:00):
We see the same thing over and over and over,
and this life could have been saved had changes been made.
Speaker 7 (45:08):
I agree.
Speaker 13 (45:09):
Yeah, a lot of these desks are definitely could have
been prevented. And that's the interesting thing about forensicsthology. We
link up our findings from the autopsy and we work
with public health and other agencies to try and prevent
desks in the future. So we are saving lives even
though we don't actually see patients, but our autopsy information
(45:30):
can help prevent desks like these from occurring. So that's
another reason why I chose going into this the specialty.
Speaker 1 (45:35):
Guys, we wait as justice unfolds and again at this hour,
Rebno's parents have not been charged and are cooperating with
law enforcement.
Speaker 2 (45:47):
If you know or think you know anything about this case, please.
Speaker 1 (45:50):
Dial six zero eight two six six six zero one four,
including information about her so called boyfriend egging her on online.
At age twenty, Nancy Grace signing off goodbye friend
Host
Nancy Grace
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