August 1, 2025 • 49 mins
The death penalty criminal trial was approaching for the man accused of killing four Idaho college students in the middle of the night, Ethan Chapin (20), Kaylee Goncalves (21), Xana Kernodle (20), and Madison Mogen (21), when the state offered Bryan Kohberger a plea deal in exchange for the death penalty.
The plea left some family members of the Idaho college murder victims divided. Under the plea agreement, 30-year-old Kohberger agrees to plead guilty to all counts against him in the November 2022 fatal stabbings, and the death penalty would be removed.
After the agreement is reached, the injuries of the victims are made known because the gag order is lifted, and the extent of their injuries left some family and members of the public outraged at the brutality of the crime.
Allegedly, some family and friends now say if they had known the viciousness of the attacks, they would not have agreed with the state on giving him a plea.
Joining Nancy Grace today:
- Greg Morse - Criminal Defense Attorney of Morse Legal, Author of “The Untested” found on Amazon; website: morselegal.com
- Dr. John Delatorre - Licensed Psychologist and Mediator (specializing in forensic psychology); Psychological Consultant to Project Absentis: a nonprofit organization that searches for missing persons; X, IG, and TikTok - @drjohndelatorre
- Chris McDonough - Director At the Cold Case Foundation, Former Homicide Detective, Worked over 300 Homicides in 25 year career, Trained the first Native American Homicide Task Force; & Host of YouTube channel, "The Interview Room"
- Joseph Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author of "Blood Beneath My Feet," and Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan;" X @JoScottForensicith Joseph Scott Morgan;" X:@JoScottForensicc
- Susan Hendricks - (Outside Ada County Courthouse) Journalist, Author: “Down the Hill: My Descent into the Double Murder in Delphi;" IG @susan_hendricks X @SusanHendicks
- Dave Mack - Crime Stories Investigative Reporter
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace the Idaho for murder details.
If the world had known what we know now, there
would never have been a Brian Coberger plead deal. This
would have gone to the death penalty. I'm Nancy Grace.
(00:23):
This is crime Stories. I want to thank you for
being with us.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Some of these might be familiar, so set up straight
when I talk to you. How was your life right
before you murdered my sisters? Did you prepare for the
crime before leaving your apartment? Please detail what you were
thinking and feeling at this time. Why did you choose
my sisters before leaving their home? Is there anything else
you did? How does it feel to know the only
(00:57):
thing you filled more miserably at than being a murderer
is trying to be a rapper?
Speaker 1 (01:03):
Details only now being revealed.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
To the public.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
If the world had known the horrific injuries and more details,
there would never have been a plea deal. The public
would have rioted at the courthouse steps. We are learning
that one of these beautiful co eds stabbed thirty times,
(01:30):
another even more Keilly Golensovas's face so many times she
is disfigured and beyond identification. It goes on and on.
Why was all of this kept secret so everyone would
accept the plea deal and think it was for the best.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
Thank you for being with us with me an all
star panel.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
But first straight out to Joe Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics,
Jacksonville State Universe, star of a hit podcast Bodybags with
Joe Scott Morgan, and author of Blood Beneath My Fate
on Amazon. Joe Scott, I can hardly take it in
what we are learning.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
First of all, just Scott listened to this.
Speaker 4 (02:14):
Officers responding to the nine to one one call from
eleven twenty two King Road find the kitchen door Ajar.
During a walk through the rental house, officer's noticed blood
is smeared on the walls and floors and pulling by
the bodies on different floors of the house. Three of
the four victims were stabbed multiple times and officers were
unable to sort out additional injuries. Injuries were so bad
(02:37):
to one of the victims, an officer said the victim
was unrecognizable.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Unrecognizable and before you weigh and Joe Scott, I want
you to hear this as well.
Speaker 5 (02:47):
Kaylee Gonsolves had already moved out of the king Road home,
but returned to show her best friend Maddie her new
range rover. An officer on scene described her face as disfigured.
Kaylee's fatal injuries included a left lung laceration, a liver laceration,
two subdual bleeds, and a stab behind her clavicle which
cut hers of clavian vein and artery. She had signs
(03:09):
of sharp force injuries and blunt force injuries, and was
the only victim to suffer asphyxia injuries.
Speaker 4 (03:16):
Kaylee gonzolvs Was stabbed thirty four times. Her facial structure
was extremely damaged, leaving her unrecognizable due to the severity
of the stab wounds, and she was identified by methods
other than simple visual recognition. Besides defensive marks on her arms,
Kaylee had a broken nose, to brain bleeds, and a
stab behind her clavicle which severed the subclavian vein and artery.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Just goott, that's just one of the victims. Can you
imagine what she lived through? No wonder her father, Stiggun
Solvace is beside himself. These facts kept secret from the
public until after the deal goes down.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
I don't like it.
Speaker 6 (04:00):
No, I don't.
Speaker 7 (04:00):
And this far the level of trauma here, Nancy, far
exceeded my expectation. Okay, from what I've been hearing lowth
these many years that we've been covering these cases, I
did not expect it to be to this degree. The
brutality here that has been exacted on these kids is unimaginable,
(04:21):
The trauma, the proximity to these individuals per the perpetrator,
I mean, this is an asymmetrical attack where he is
literally would literally have to be on top of a
couple of these victims, just kind of hammering down on them,
not just with the blade itself, but also inducing this
blunt force trauma which many of these victims have sustained. Nancy,
(04:45):
there's also other evidence other than just sharp force injury.
We've got indication that markings left behind may have been
generated as a result of potentially punching.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
Make sense of what you are just saying, okay, because
you use a lot of technical terms. Kelly Gonsalves was asphyxiated, Okay,
there were marks on her mouth, there were other signs
that she had been suffocated or strangled. But what is
so shocking to me amongst all of this, it's all shocking,
is that there are multiple stabs to the face.
Speaker 3 (05:25):
Susan Hendrix joining me, She.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
Has been camped outside the county courthouse there. From the
get go, author of Down the Hill, I descend into
the double murder in Delphi. There she did another deep,
deep look at the Delphi murders. Susan Hendricks, Am I
understanding this correctly? All the injuries sustained by Keilly, and
that's not even the worst. I think Matty Mogan had
even more stab wounds. But all of these stab wounds
(05:51):
to the face.
Speaker 8 (05:53):
Susan Hendricks, Yes, to me, that shows a deep rooted
hate and envy for those women. Absolutely right, Nancy, when
you say no wonder Steve was so furious and you
didn't even know what we know now. And I remember
early on, Nancy, you'll remember too that the coroner said
they were likely sleeping. What that almost sounds deliberate to
(06:15):
turn the people off, to say, oh, nothing to see here,
and knocking down the house. I mean, these injuries horrific.
You're right, Matty Mogan wounds to the face, Xana Kernodle
more than fifty stab wounds. Fifty It's unbelievable.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
Fifty to Xana, Xana, fifty stab wounds. And what's so
crazy about this is let me go to a shrink.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
Doctor John Delatori.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
Is joining us, and I want to follow up on
what Susan Hendricks just said. Delatory psychologists specializing in forensic psychology.
All these wounds to the face. Now, I'm just a
trial lawyer, okay, but this means something coologically, There's no
doubt in my mind.
Speaker 3 (07:02):
I don't care.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
If the Angel Gabriel came down and told me it
means nothing, I'd have to call him a liar. Because
when you stab a woman in the face fifty times,
or in this case, Kili Gounsolve is twenty thirty times,
Doctor John Delatory, what does it mean?
Speaker 9 (07:20):
I think you know, other guests, you're going to talk
about the level of hating and animosity towards it. But
for me, he literally tried to erase her. He literally
tried to erase her identity from this planet. He hated
her so much that she couldn't even exist as a
human being anymore. That's the level of brutality that we're
(07:41):
dealing with here. When he walked into that room, he
imagined that she would no longer exist.
Speaker 6 (07:47):
As a human.
Speaker 9 (07:49):
That's what he was searching for. That's what he was
doing with all of this stuff, and whatever way that
he could accomplish that, he was going to spend the
time necessary, because imagine how much time that he has
to spend for you know, choking and then sabbing all
across her body and then the amount of times on
her face. That takes time. That's not something that's just
(08:10):
easily done. So he wanted to do this specifically to her,
to erase her identity from this planet.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
What is so bizarre, doctor Delatory, is that he was
not insane, not insane now, not insane then, not temporary
insanity at the time.
Speaker 3 (08:28):
And when you look at him as.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
He's sitting there and sentencing, and he's looking as some
described it, and Susan Hendrix was there when he was
looking at the victims' families crying and snotting and begging
for the truth. He was described as like looking like
a hawk watching its prey, enjoying watching its squirm. And
(08:54):
this is the guy that stabbed this young girl up
to fifty times in the face the body. But I've
read a lot of studies, and I put a lot
of experts on the stand doctor Dilatory that explain that
when an attack her specifically attacks a woman's face or
(09:16):
her genitals, it's an anti woman thing.
Speaker 3 (09:21):
He is destroying her beauty.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
And there have been a lot of analyzes done on
Coburger implicating him as an in cel, an involuntary celibate
that hates women because he can't get women. Explain what
this all means. The attack to the victim's face not
just one. Kelly was totally disfigured. Dylan couldn't even identify her.
Speaker 3 (09:49):
You heard it.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
She had to be identified by means other than a
visual identification like you see in the movies and TVPSA
doesn't happen anymore where the loved one is brought in
and the all the shape back.
Speaker 3 (10:01):
That doesn't happen anymore. But when they asked Dylan.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
Who is that, she couldn't identify killing right, That's how
bad it was.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
She was stabbed so many times in the face.
Speaker 9 (10:12):
This is clearly gender based hatred. Clearly gender based hatred.
When we talk about the in cells, what we need
to remember is that they're primarily an online forum in
which all of these sad sack losers blame women for
all of their problems. Now, when we look at Coburger,
we can certainly see that there are elements in which
(10:35):
he viewed women as being subservient, as not being qualified
to be in the same room as him. But there's
a level of hatred here when it comes to these
behaviors that he's been fostering for a long period of time.
He's had to learn to control all of these behaviors.
And that's why I think you saw him the way
(10:55):
that we all saw him when it came to the
victim statements. He's taking it all in, he's listening to it.
He's in control, so he believes, and he's not going
to let anybody see what's underneath that hates.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
I got another wrench to throw in the works for
you to just mull over. We learn from inmates behind
bars now that he obsessively washes his hands over and
over and over and will spend over an hour in
the shower behind bars. So the dichotomy of him obsessively
(11:31):
cleaning himself but yet stabbing these victims up to fifty
times each. Then we see him, Susan Hendricks, as you
did in the sentencing and he did. He looked like
a hawk staring at a little varmint caught in its talons,
just watching it scorm. He liked it, Susan, Yeah, he
(11:53):
absolutely loved it.
Speaker 8 (11:54):
And I think he, for lack of a better term,
got off on the women going up to the podium
besides Olivia Gonzalvez. He did not like Kur I could
tell by his clenched jaw, but with the women, the
surviving roommates crying, and he also didn't like the men,
the men and Kelly's father turning the podium and on
the podium it said do not move.
Speaker 3 (12:16):
He didn't listen, focused.
Speaker 8 (12:17):
Right at coburger and said you picked the wrong family.
And by the way, they had heard about the thirty
plus stab wounds with Kelley, right.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, Susan. You know what, Susan,
spare me.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
Okay, I'm hoping that he got an effected him. He's living,
he's breathing, and I and you and the victims' families
are paying for it. And what I want to know,
if you have any idea why all this was kept
secret until after the deal was done, and it couldn't
be undone. There would have been a mob on the
(12:53):
courthouse steps if they had known Kelly for one like
the others were so attacked brutally.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
Step and think.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
About it, Joe Scott maybybe I'm not explaining this well,
the k bar knife and you got the same exact
kbar knife as did I. To think of that knife
in this girl's face, what thirty times that we know of,
and many of those wounds were overlapping, so you can't
differentiate one versus two versus three if the stab comes
(13:24):
down in the same spot in her face.
Speaker 3 (13:27):
This guy is laughing at Everybody's probably writing a book
right now.
Speaker 6 (13:32):
Yeah, he is.
Speaker 7 (13:32):
And I'm sure that there are academics out there that
are salivating at the opportunity to get to sit in and
sell with him. And he's going to have control now, Nancy.
He's going to have control of the conversation because he
was not forced to allocute. I'll keep preaching that over
and over again. An academic will go in there and
he will get get ready for him to be able
(13:53):
to tell his side of the story. Let me tell
you one more if you like that one. This is
what I believe. I believe that there is probably institution
out there somewhere around the world that will allow him
in prison to complete his PhD. Just chew on that
for a second. After what he did to these kids
over and over and over again. He brutalized each and
(14:14):
every one of them to the point where you've got
one child is completely unrecognizable and you've got another one
that sustained so many stab wounds, so many stab wounds
that you cannot begin to fully appreciate the savagery. I
don't think that she went through in those last moments
(14:34):
of her life. And one more thing about Ethan. You
know that image that we've seen for years and years now,
those of that streaking down the side of the house, Well, Nancy,
that turns out that that was positively examined and turns
out that that was Ethan's blood. As a forensic scientist,
I'm not going to look at an image and you
(14:56):
can take this to the bank. I've never said that
that was blood. After they have released this information, they've
said that's his blood. That gives you an idea relative
to the volume, the volume of terror, the volume of
trauma that these kids were subjected to, and it's actually
visualized on the outside of that house.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
Not only that, Joe Scott, the evidence that caller golns
solve this was asphyxiated. It's not just all the stab
wounds to the face. Yep, he silenced her.
Speaker 10 (15:31):
Listen, damage around her mouth, suggesting Coberger tried to silence
or gag her in some way.
Speaker 6 (15:37):
The family lawyer.
Speaker 10 (15:37):
Suggested a second weapon was used to inflict blunt force
trauma to her face, while others believe the trauma could
have been caused by the butt of the k bar knife.
Haley's asphyxia injuries were caused by blunt force trauma to
her face and mouth area, potentially alongside other forms of
restriction or obstruction.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
Just Scott, please explain that that this was caused by
the butt of his knife.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
Is that like pistol whipping somebody.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
With the butt of a gum but you're doing it
with the butt of that kbar.
Speaker 3 (16:06):
What does this mean?
Speaker 7 (16:07):
No, what it means is when this knife was developed, Nancy,
for the Marine Corps to use in the field, they
use it for a variety of things. Did you know
that combat, in combat, you can use this as a bludgeon.
Look at that? What does it look like? It looks
like the leading edge of a hammer, doesn't it. And
this thing is steal so as you're driving it down
like a piston, you're actually driving it down into the tissue.
(16:28):
That's going to explain a lot of the fractures that
you might see with her face, potentially because he's in
such close proximity to her as he's traumatizing her.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
Please describe in detail the level of anxiety you must
have felt when you heard the bear cat pull up
to your family home on December thirtieth, twenty twenty two.
Which do you regret more returning to the crime scene
five hours later, or never ever going back to Moscow,
(16:59):
not even one after stalking them there for months. If
you are really smart, do you think you'd be here
right now? What's it like needing this much attention just
to feel real? You're terrified of being ordinary, aren't you?
(17:20):
Do you feel anything at all? Or are you exactly
what you always feared?
Speaker 3 (17:25):
Nothing?
Speaker 2 (17:28):
If you're so powerful, then why are you still hiding?
Speaker 3 (17:30):
Defendant?
Speaker 2 (17:32):
You see I'm here today as me, But who are you?
Let's try to take off your mask and see the
truth is the scariest part about you. It's how painfully average.
You turned out to be as dumb as they come, stupid, clumsy, slow, sloppy, weak, dirty.
(17:56):
Don't ever try to convince yourself you mattered just because
someone final said your name out loud.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
You're seeing coburger there in the Senate, saying Susan Hendricks
described the way he looked, which is a complete opposite
of the person that carried out these knowing but frenzied
acts on the victim, fifty stab wounds, thirty stab wounds,
disfiguring Kelly's face with a k bar knife and the
butt of the knife. What was he like in that sentencing, Nancy?
Speaker 8 (18:25):
There was no movement at all, stoics, staring straight ahead.
The only time I saw any facial expression is when
he walked in in the beginning and then after the
break and smiled towards his mother.
Speaker 3 (18:37):
Other than that, my dad was watching.
Speaker 8 (18:39):
At home and said he has to be on medication.
He's making zero movement. I said, no, he doesn't have
the feelings. They're just not there.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
Guys, compare his demeanor in the courtroom to the frenzied
attack on the victims.
Speaker 3 (18:57):
Listen.
Speaker 4 (18:58):
The severity of Kaylee's injury was such that even roommate
Dylan Mortenson initially misidentified Kaylee as Xena due to the disfigurement.
Xanna Kernodle was awake and her order from Jack in
the Box had just been delivered when she appears to
have heard something going on in the room upstairs occupied
by Mattie and Kaylee. As Xena is on the stairs
leading upstairs, she was confronted by Coburger exiting Mattie's room,
(19:22):
and he attacks Xena as she attempts to retreat to
her room.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
Joining me is Chris mcdunna, director Cole Case Foundation, former
homicide detective who has scoured the scene as well.
Speaker 3 (19:33):
I want you to hear this and then give.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
Me your analysis of how Xana was attacked by Coburger.
It's nothing like we were told at the beginning, Like
Susan Hendricks was saying, Oh, they all were killed in
their sleep, Okay, they drifted off to death. It's anything
but listen to this.
Speaker 10 (19:56):
Chris Coberger attacks Xena, but she puts up a fight
and sustains more than fifty stab wounds. Many of Xanna's
wounds are defensive wounds, and a gash on her left
hand between her index finger and thumb, as well as
blunt force injuries on her body. A life and death
struggle between Xanna and Coberger took place in her room.
Xanna's fatal injuries identified as a laceration to her right
(20:19):
lung and two lacerations to her heart.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
Crime stories with Nancy Grace. So he was stabbing her
so brutally. He lacerated her lung and twice to the heart.
Was he just sitting on top of her, just stabbing
her over and over and over?
Speaker 3 (20:47):
What about this?
Speaker 1 (20:48):
You've had a lot of theories about the way this
thing went down, and if the public, if the world
had known what we're learning now, I think the courthouse
would have been surrounded by tor and pitchforks for Pete's sake,
not to let that sweetheart and deal go through.
Speaker 3 (21:04):
It sounds like Xana hears something.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
She was awake because she had just gotten that order
from Jack in the Box. She hears something going on
upstairs in the room occupied by Maddie and Cally. She's
on the stairs that lead to upstairs, and then is
then it's then she's confronted by Coburger. Give me your scenario, So, Nancy,
(21:29):
I mean We've talked about this many times on your show.
Speaker 11 (21:32):
Just think about this idea of the frenzy that's taking
place on the third floor that delectorium Doc Morgan's are
talking about, where this guy is trying to erase everybody
that he's contacting with. Now you have this young, innocent
human being who here's what's going on upstairs, interrupts and
(21:56):
then he turns on her like the wolf that he is,
and then slaughters her. I think that was probably the
time he dropped the sheet because she's in this frenzy.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
So Scott describe the injuries to Xanna.
Speaker 7 (22:10):
Xanna. The interesting thing about her injuries Nancy is that
she's got multiple defensive injuries. That's why I used the
term that she fought. This was like a titan like fight.
She knows that her life is coming to an end,
or she's trying to avoid it, and so she's got
multiple injuries where she's raising her arm like this and
(22:34):
her hand and these cuts run onto her arm, where
if you're talking about sword play or knife player, you're
talking about a term called perry where you're trying to
defend yourself like this. Do you remember Nancy the first
bit of physical trauma. Information that was actually leaked out
in this case had to do specifically with Xana, and
(22:56):
it had to do with the fact that that knife
had been drawn through her hand to the point where
her tendons were cut. And I knew at that moment
time that was several months ago. It seems like now
I knew at that time that she had fought ferociously.
I just didn't realize, Tancy, that this was going to
(23:17):
wind up with a total of fifty five zero injuries
to this diminutive young woman. And I see this, and
then I see that reptile in court, and I think
about this is this is no match here physically showing
up with a combat knife and he is literally just
full of anger and rage. I'm not saying that Xanna
(23:40):
was the target. I'm saying, like Chris had said, that
she became kind of like an impediment to him getting
ready to x Fill out of that house. He got
in her, she got in his way, and you know,
Katie barred the door at that point in time. The
totality of his rage is taken out on her. At
this point in the aftermath.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
Joining me now is a veteran trial lawyer Greg Morse,
criminal defense attorney at Morse's Legal author of The Untested
on Amazon. Greg, there's no need to argue with me
about guilt or innessis because he's already played guilty.
Speaker 3 (24:18):
All right.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
He's behind bars right now and you're going to hear this.
Speaker 3 (24:22):
Greg.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
He's got a tablet, he's got an iPad. He can
watch movies. He can communicate with the outside world. He's
got email, he can listen to music. He can have
his vegan diet. He can write books. There is no
son of Sam law in Idaho, which means he can
make money off of his books and his appearances. If
(24:45):
he dials into some no son of Sam protection laws
in Idaho, he can call zoom in from his laptop
to the next criminal defense gala and give his side.
He didn't speak, of course, it's sentencing. He won't be
cross examined.
Speaker 3 (25:06):
Blah blah blah. It goes on.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
He can have visits from women, he can have girlfriends.
Look at your on Vandersliet. He's had two children behind bars.
It goes on. Greg Morse, I want to talk to
you about why these incendiary fact incendiary. Think about that
word incendiary. What is an incendiary device like a Molotov cocktail.
(25:30):
You throw it, it hits and it blows up and
destroys everything around it. These incendiary facts are now being
released after the deed is done.
Speaker 3 (25:43):
Greg and I think that is wrong.
Speaker 6 (25:48):
Well, it's not, it's not. The case is over, and
I'd be shocked if all the family members didn't have
access to this information if they wanted to with the prosecutor,
you know you were a prosecut Nancy. Criminal law is
not for the media. It happens in the courtroom and
in offices, and it's very different than what gets played
out in public. And at the end of the day,
(26:10):
while you can look at these facts and say they're
you know, they're right, they're aggravating factors. If this were
the death penalty and we moved on to the death
penalty phase of the case, he went to trial and
was convicted, the government would be obviously putting all of
these extreme violence that he did to these people as
aggravating factors that weren't the death penalty. However, all of
(26:31):
that being said, that doesn't bring solace. It doesn't change
the fact that he has multiple life sentences. The family
will not feel unaccomplishing.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
You a soulless I'm certainly not asking a criminal defense
attorney to speak to the suffering of crime victims. You
represent the bad guys. Okay, let's just get that straight. Okay,
that's what you do. I'm asking you about the fact
that these incendiary details were kept secret, and yes, I
(27:04):
understand that they were kept secret for a reason.
Speaker 3 (27:08):
But in my mind, this.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
Is justification to seek the death penalty, not to have
him laid up in a cell washing his hands with
pure l watching an X rated video on his iPad. No, again,
here we're learning Keiley was disfigured with a k bar
knife to the face.
Speaker 3 (27:28):
What thirty times?
Speaker 6 (27:30):
I didn't need to read all the penalformation. You're right,
it doesn't do anything. It doesn't stop crime. There are
people in the Idaho Maximum Prison since nineteen eighty five
that are still waiting for execution. Nobody doesn't commit a
crime because someone got the death penalty. Those type of
cases do not lead to that result. The death penalty
is a waste. All it would do in this case
(27:51):
is Okay.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
I'm going to ask you again to start preaching the
pros and cause of the death penertation.
Speaker 3 (27:56):
I'm telling you and asking.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
You, do you think the public would have gone along
with this deal if they had known the truth?
Speaker 6 (28:03):
The public's irrelevant.
Speaker 3 (28:04):
It's not fair.
Speaker 6 (28:05):
That's all that matters. But no one cares. You're not
in the case. Nobody cares, like it doesn't matter, you
don't matter, No one matters. I don't matter. It's those victims'
families that matter. And what and prosecutors, you were one.
You have to make a hard choice in difficult situations.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
And there is absolutely no Greg Moore, Yeah, it does matter.
It does matter because prosecutor doesn't do anything to.
Speaker 3 (28:31):
Do the right thing.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
This was not the right thing to stab a young
girl in the face thirty or more times with that
thing right there, and nobody knows that until now. Uh
uh oh. You keep saying you don't matter, I don't matter.
That's bs We do matter. Every voice matters, every voice matters.
(28:57):
He was entrusted with doing the right thing by the public,
doing the right thing for the public, the people in Idaho,
and this was not the right thing. Now we're learning
about all of these disgusting facts. I mean, Joe Scott,
you've scoured the medical Examiner's report.
Speaker 3 (29:18):
What repels you the most. If you can even pick.
Speaker 7 (29:22):
I don't know that I can. I can't narrow it
down because it's so vast, Nancy. Out of all the
cases certainly that I've covered in the media, this farester
passes when you're talking about an edged weapon. I've never
seen this, Nancy. I never saw it. In all my
years in practice in New Orleans and Atlanta, I've never
seen four people, four four people, this disfigured, this brutalized
(29:45):
in one location with one case. This far exceeds anything
that I can imagine. But also there's one other element here,
and this might be more of a John comment, but
the idea that the terror that they lived in in
those final moments, and I don't know that we can
take the measure I think on trauma. You can't take
(30:07):
the measure on what they went through in those final moments.
Speaker 6 (30:10):
Nancy.
Speaker 7 (30:11):
It's something that you cannot absolutely quantify.
Speaker 10 (30:15):
Madison Mogen might have been asleep when Brian Coberger snuck
into the room to attack, but she woke up to
fight back against her killer. Mattie had defensive wounds to
her forearms and hands, indicating she was not stabbed to
death in her sleep with no awareness to what was happening.
Her death was caused by lacerations to her liver and
left lung from sharp forced injuries, and she suffered a
(30:36):
gash extending from her eye to her nose. On the
third floor, Kaylee and Madison are found together in a
bed under a pink blanket covered in blood. There is
a large pool of blood near Kaylee's midsection and blood
spatter on the walls. The officer notes Mattie appears to
be laying up against Kaylee, and Maddie has what appeared
to be wounds to her forearm and hands. A gash
(30:57):
from under her right eye appears to go from the
corner of her eye to her nose. The officer notes
Kayleie is unrecognizable as her facial structure is extremely damaged.
Speaker 1 (31:12):
Crime stores with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
You want the truth, Here's the one you'll hate the most.
If you hadn't attacked them in their sleep in the
middle of the night like a pedophile, Kaylee.
Speaker 3 (31:27):
Would have kicked your gass.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
Thank you.
Speaker 10 (31:31):
As Xana Kernodle puts up a fight, her boyfriend Ethan
Chapin appears to have been asleep and never woke up.
Ethan died from sharp force injuries, and the fatal injury
was a stab wound under his left clavicle. This wound
severed his subclavian vein in subclavian artery as well as
his jugular vein.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
Talk like that would have thrown me completely over the
edge of the cliff if I were trying this case.
You have to have the medical examiner explain in regular
people talk what he said saying. What he's saying is
that Ethan was likely attacked in his sleep. His body
found lying in bed, partially under a blanket covering his
(32:11):
midsection and bottom line. Susan Hendrix, his jugular vein was sliced,
there was arterial bleeding which likely went all the way
up to the ceiling. That's what happened to this beautiful
young boy, explaining Susan Hendrix.
Speaker 8 (32:31):
Absolutely and the authorities who first came into that room
says there was blood smeared all over the walls, and
I go back to the corner, saying they were likely
killed in their sleep. It looked like a horror seed
like a movie all around that house. And the attorney
mentioned defense attorney who matters guests who felt like they
didn't matter. All of the family members and Caylee's father
(32:54):
has been saying that from the start, and he didn't
even know the extent of the injuries so much so
they made mattered that they only had twenty four hours
they found out the email that there was a plea
deal that was reached. They felt like they didn't matter.
They were a secondary thought.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
Okay, Greg Morrise, you can put that. Let me just
put it mildly. Well, I can think of a lot
of places you could shove that, but I'll just say
correct it. Put it in your pipe and smoke it.
Speaker 6 (33:22):
Let's correct. The mischaracter deal has already.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
Done and sealed before the family got to even talk
about it.
Speaker 12 (33:27):
The victim and your families matter, not the panelists. And
also correct the information son of Samuel's victims family unconstitutional.
Speaker 6 (33:39):
So just to say who matters? What I'm talking about
is the public's view for justice, mercy, whatever doesn't matter.
It's about the victims, the victim's family, the prosecutor. So
we're talking about this in a vacuum. But the prosecutors
spoken with the victims family and the only thing that
can give them solace is their loved one back, and
that's impossible, so of course they're going to be.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
That's not correct, Tim, if you out my season, Hendricks,
wasn't this plea agreed upon before the victims' families found
out about it? I'm not talking about the public. I'm
not talking about Morse or anybody else on this panel,
because at least to that little tiny bit extent, Morse
is right. What we think doesn't matter because it's already done.
(34:24):
It's over. Isn't it true, Hendrix, that this deal was
agreed upon before the family even knew about it. They
were notified in an email, Hey, here's the deal.
Speaker 3 (34:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 8 (34:35):
Steve Gonzalez was so furious he didn't even go into
court when it was announced that a plea deal has
been reached. He was infuriated. Kelly's brother is still They're
all still infuriated.
Speaker 3 (34:49):
Didn't speak of the victim impact statements.
Speaker 8 (34:51):
He said, I just feel like I couldn't contain myself
what was decided around us, not for us, around us,
giving them really twenty four hours to get to that
courtroom to hear that a plea deal has been reached.
They felt left out, They didn't even know, and I
don't know what kind of inspired the prosecutor, if you will,
(35:12):
to tell them how brutal the attacks were. But they
heard just hours before the victim impacts statements. They weren't
even going to hear them. It's just they kept them out.
You're right, we don't matter they do, and they were
tossed to the side of it, I believe.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
And let me be very very clear regarding son of
Sam laws a US Supreme Court case, I believe it
was about the movie Wise Guys. But regardless of the movie,
the Supreme Courts reversed the son of Sam law the
national law. However, since that time, forty or more states
(35:51):
have enacted their own state wide son of Sam laws
that comply to the federal US Supreme Court case.
Speaker 3 (36:01):
So there are son of Sam laws.
Speaker 1 (36:04):
In effect right now that are constitutionally approved, but not Idaho.
Therefore Coburger can make money. Yes he can, Oh, yes
he can.
Speaker 3 (36:18):
Now.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
We are also learning from recently released files the Coburger
is called red handed stalking the victims. We find out
in the files that repeatedly these young girls saw someone
lurking in that tree line.
Speaker 3 (36:36):
Hey new yourk control room, Please.
Speaker 1 (36:38):
Show me the home the King wrote address, especially that
one video where McDonough and.
Speaker 3 (36:45):
I walked up behind the house.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
There's an higher vantage point if you can get the video,
get it because that's the tree line. I think they're
talking about Chris McDonough. Repeatedly.
Speaker 3 (36:58):
The dog I think the dog's name.
Speaker 1 (36:59):
Is Murph would go and attack the tree line uncharacteristically.
I mean, you know when your dog is doing something
they don't normally do.
Speaker 13 (37:10):
That.
Speaker 1 (37:10):
There you go, there you go. There's a tree line.
I think they're talking about Chris McDonough. They saw a
shadowy figure skulking in those trees. The dog would go
and attack at the time they saw the shadowy figure
and when they didn't see the shadowy figure, but they
now believe he was there. And hold on, mcdunna, you've
(37:32):
got to see this before you weigh in on one
of his many outings to scout the murder, saying, idiot
Coburger was actually pulled over watch this killer on cam.
Speaker 13 (37:49):
Hey there, I stuffed you go a little fast. You
didn't realize this is a thirty five. It's thirty five,
it is, yeah, so you go out forty yeah, forty
three is what the radar said. Oh, yeah, you have
your license, that registration insurance. Were you wearing your seat
(38:13):
belt when I stopped you? No, that's no good, right,
be honest with you. Yeah, I appreciate that.
Speaker 1 (38:24):
I mean, really, Chris McDonough, he's on his way to
stalk the victims, to spy on him, sneak around, skulk
in that tree line and watch them maybe inside undressing
or whatever he tried to catch visually. And he's pulled
over for exceeding speed limit, not wearing a seat belt.
How relieved is he? He's planning a quadruple murder.
Speaker 3 (38:49):
Chris.
Speaker 11 (38:49):
Yeah, and Nancy and you and I stood right there
and looked in the same vantage point he did. And
so you know, it's important to understand if you're going
to go sit down with you better understand the neighborhood he.
Speaker 6 (39:02):
Hangs out in.
Speaker 11 (39:04):
And when you have the disc attorney later on here
not taking a shot at my colleague here, but when
you have the DA, you know, coming and telling the
world we're not really sure what his motive is. We're
not sure if there's a sexual component to this, etc.
Speaker 6 (39:18):
Etc.
Speaker 3 (39:19):
Etc.
Speaker 11 (39:20):
Well, what are you sure of then in his totality
because the public is sure they're connecting the dots that
you know, there's information that this.
Speaker 6 (39:30):
Guy brutally did what he did, how he.
Speaker 11 (39:32):
Did it, and all of a sudden, the families becoming
an attachment to the email.
Speaker 6 (39:40):
That oh, by the way, we're going to make a
deal with the devil. Here. There's something wrong here.
Speaker 3 (39:44):
There's something definitely wrong here. You know, I want you
to hear this too.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
So here he is, he's out stalking the victims, and
we have him on video en routed to the murder
saying he's pulled over for exceeding to speed limit, not
by much, and he's worried about insurance.
Speaker 3 (40:10):
Listen, yeah, I just.
Speaker 13 (40:11):
Have a question about that. So in terms of what
we want to got to scream and such, futs off,
he's superford it to your insurances in the same way
for this Still, I don't think so. I think it's
only moving violations that go to insurance for things that
might put points on your license. Yeah, I'm not one
hundred percent sure, long block. What I'm like, Okay, could
I get a phone number for you?
Speaker 10 (40:33):
Yeah?
Speaker 13 (40:33):
What we need to put it on the citation as
it goes.
Speaker 6 (40:37):
To the court.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
And he's worried that his phone number is going to
be on the citation. He ain't crazy delatory. He's asking
about his driver's license, registration, insurance. He doesn't want his
cell number on the police report. He is not crazy.
No wonder they didn't put up the insanity defense because
(40:58):
you play this here he is out talking the victims
home and he's caught and he's perfectly sane.
Speaker 6 (41:06):
Yeah, he's perfectly saying.
Speaker 9 (41:07):
He's clearly logical and rational, and what he's wanting to
do now, the behavior that he ends up doing is
completely irrational. There's no reason for him to have done
this other than he wanted to.
Speaker 6 (41:20):
That's the key.
Speaker 9 (41:21):
Everything was about him wanting to hurt these people. Everything
is about how he it feels frustrated and just wants
to erase these people as an exemplar of his overall
level of frustration with what's going on with.
Speaker 1 (41:37):
Nje wanted more than that delatry. I think he wanted
to have sex with the women, but he has been
rejected by people so many times. I mean, whoa, whoa, wha,
whoa whoa.
Speaker 3 (41:49):
Isn't it true?
Speaker 1 (41:50):
Dave mag joining me Crime Story's investigative reporter, that one
woman met up with him via tender and he started
asking her about what would be the worst way to
be murdered.
Speaker 3 (42:02):
That was their last date. What happened, Dave.
Speaker 14 (42:05):
Mac They actually met through kender, like you said, and
during the course of their date, the day shares a
story of a murder that took place in her hometown.
And as they talked further, Coberger actually asked her about
what would the worst way to die be and I
think she said knife, and he suggested out of the
(42:26):
thin air, a k bar knife. Until this story came out, Nancy,
a lot of us had no idea of what a
k bar knife was.
Speaker 6 (42:35):
Why would anyone bring it up on a date.
Speaker 1 (42:37):
Let's let the defense attorney answer that. So he meets
a tender date, he wants to have sex with her.
Speaker 13 (42:42):
So his.
Speaker 1 (42:45):
Lead up to that to woo her is talking about
what would be the worst way for her to be murdered.
Speaker 3 (42:52):
She says by knife. He goes, oh, like a k
bar what a co inky name.
Speaker 6 (42:56):
Greg Morris, No, you're right, and I think you know
this is the unfortunate situation of society. People don't think
someone acting weird or something. They just kind of forget
about it. That's out of their life. But that's why
I keep non emergency police agency number in my phone
for my local community. No, that's not what I'm saying.
You're sitting here talking what I'm saying, So let's talk
(43:18):
about No. No, what I'm pointing out. That's a you're
one hundred percent right, that's a bizarre way to talk
to a woman you're on a date with. Right, that's unusual.
He's a weird guy. We also have the experience they were.
Speaker 1 (43:32):
Pointed with him a man, Well you got it talking
a week to the murder and he's talking to his
sex target.
Speaker 6 (43:40):
Amount of k bar, Nancy. Any prosecutor could win this
case like this is easy to win from the prosecution side.
So what does that add to where we are today? Nothing.
He would have been convicted. He committed the crimes. And
my guess is, if you look through this guy's video history,
you probably watched the documentary The Cheshire Murders. That's point
because this is very reminiscent, except not as extreme because
(44:03):
they let their victims on fire in Connecticut, and the
Connecticut chose to bring the death penalty back for those
two were Idaho chose not to follow it. In this
case and give life sentences. But my guess is when
he went to that strip club and he was the
only person there, he was tempted to maybe act out then,
but he got scared. That's why he didn't. He was
leading up to what unfortunately happened to those young folks
(44:27):
that he was convicted of. But there's a weirdident.
Speaker 1 (44:32):
Dilatory, did you hear more? Oh, I'm still hearing him.
It's like a gnat. I can hear it, but I
can't see it. Doctor Delatory. You hear more saying something
about society blah blah blah blah, and then it's an
unfortunate thing that happened. It's like they had an accident
or something. This is not unfortunate. It's a quadruple premeditated,
(44:57):
frenzied brutal pack.
Speaker 3 (45:00):
You can't explain it away.
Speaker 1 (45:03):
And the deal was done in secret and presented by
email to the victims family. If the world had known
the facts we're learning now, and I'm just this is
a tip of the iceberg. No one would have agreed
to this. There would be an uprise in an insurrection.
Speaker 9 (45:20):
Yeah, I think the idea is what we have to
remember that there are no coincidences in murder investigations, right,
these past behaviors are clearly indicative of what he is
going on in his mind, because it's too specific. As
for the deal happening in secret, I mean, in what
other way can can the prosecutor kind of get this
through if it's not in secret. I think the prosecutor
(45:43):
knew that this was going to look poorly amongst the community,
amongst society, and amongst the victims' families, so we needed
to push it through in a way that he can
kind of say, you know, listen, this was kind of
spur of the moment. We needed to get this done.
Speaker 6 (45:57):
I think.
Speaker 9 (45:59):
I think in the US mind, he's probably trying to
save the feelings of the family, but the family deserved
their opportunity to be to have their voices heard.
Speaker 10 (46:07):
A court surviving room made Dylan Mortenson heard a person
she believed was Kaylee screamed that somebody was in the house,
then heard someone run down from the third floor to
Xanna's room on the second floor, where she then heard
what she called a commotion. Mortenson, here's an unfamiliar male
voice say you're going to be fine. I'm going to
help you.
Speaker 15 (46:27):
Dylan was in her room while hearing the commotion, only
briefly opening up her door to see if she could
tell what was happening. After hearing the man saying I'm
going to help you, Dylan opens the door and sees Coburger,
describing him to Officer Noon as as six feet tall, slim,
build a black mask with bushy eyebrows.
Speaker 1 (46:44):
Joe Scott Morgan joining US Professor Forensics and star on
body Bags podcast with Joe Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, the
prosecutor has come out and said the reason Kyburger didn't
murder Dylan Mortenson is because he Kyburger was afraid, didn't
he say.
Speaker 8 (47:02):
That Susan Hendricks absolutely afraid that maybe someone would see
him because of all the commotion. But now that I
hear the details, they are so lucky. I believe he
would have done it in an instant, killed Bethany and
Dylan if he saw them.
Speaker 3 (47:15):
Jo Scott, that's total bs. He just frendz.
Speaker 1 (47:18):
The attacked a young girl, stabbing here in the face
with thirty times another one fifty times in total, slicing
Ethan's jugular vein, asphyxiation, beating with the butt of a
knife block just he's not afraid of Dylan Morton's So
why is the prosecutor saying that.
Speaker 6 (47:36):
I don't know.
Speaker 7 (47:37):
I've given this some thought, Nancy. And one of the
things that I kind of thought about, if he is
targeting one of the two victims on the third floor,
he goes in, he murders, slaughters both these two precious souls,
then is he's on an adrenaline high at that moment,
Tom And so after that adrenaline dump, he's coming down,
(47:59):
coming down the stairs case at which time he encounters
Xana and it's then his adrenaline he gets another adrenaline dump,
chases her into the room. I think that he's completely exhausted.
I think that probably he's got the thousand yards stare
where he's just focused on trying to get the hell
out of this place as quickly as he can. And
(48:20):
you know, I don't know. I guess he has a
survival instinct. He seems like he's more bent on trying
to impress law enforcement at traffic stops. And then of
course we hear about him trying to dominate the initial
conversation that he had with the police. It's really he's
kind of hard to figure out. But I don't think
that he is truly hard to figure out. Again, I
(48:42):
think he's like a reptile. I don't think he has
a soul. Nancy, I really don't.
Speaker 1 (48:46):
We stop now to remember an American hero officer, Jacob
Chaffin's Prestonburgh PD, just twenty eight years old, shot in
the line of duty. Lead's behind grieving widow wife Hannah,
A little girl, Paisley, American hero officer in Jacob Chaffin's
Nancy Gray signing off good bye friend,
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace the Idaho for murder details.
If the world had known what we know now, there
would never have been a Brian Coberger plead deal. This
would have gone to the death penalty. I'm Nancy Grace.
(00:23):
This is crime Stories. I want to thank you for
being with us.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Some of these might be familiar, so set up straight
when I talk to you. How was your life right
before you murdered my sisters? Did you prepare for the
crime before leaving your apartment? Please detail what you were
thinking and feeling at this time. Why did you choose
my sisters before leaving their home? Is there anything else
you did? How does it feel to know the only
(00:57):
thing you filled more miserably at than being a murderer
is trying to be a rapper?
Speaker 1 (01:03):
Details only now being revealed.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
To the public.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
If the world had known the horrific injuries and more details,
there would never have been a plea deal. The public
would have rioted at the courthouse steps. We are learning
that one of these beautiful co eds stabbed thirty times,
(01:30):
another even more Keilly Golensovas's face so many times she
is disfigured and beyond identification. It goes on and on.
Why was all of this kept secret so everyone would
accept the plea deal and think it was for the best.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
Thank you for being with us with me an all
star panel.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
But first straight out to Joe Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics,
Jacksonville State Universe, star of a hit podcast Bodybags with
Joe Scott Morgan, and author of Blood Beneath My Fate
on Amazon. Joe Scott, I can hardly take it in
what we are learning.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
First of all, just Scott listened to this.
Speaker 4 (02:14):
Officers responding to the nine to one one call from
eleven twenty two King Road find the kitchen door Ajar.
During a walk through the rental house, officer's noticed blood
is smeared on the walls and floors and pulling by
the bodies on different floors of the house. Three of
the four victims were stabbed multiple times and officers were
unable to sort out additional injuries. Injuries were so bad
(02:37):
to one of the victims, an officer said the victim
was unrecognizable.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Unrecognizable and before you weigh and Joe Scott, I want
you to hear this as well.
Speaker 5 (02:47):
Kaylee Gonsolves had already moved out of the king Road home,
but returned to show her best friend Maddie her new
range rover. An officer on scene described her face as disfigured.
Kaylee's fatal injuries included a left lung laceration, a liver laceration,
two subdual bleeds, and a stab behind her clavicle which
cut hers of clavian vein and artery. She had signs
(03:09):
of sharp force injuries and blunt force injuries, and was
the only victim to suffer asphyxia injuries.
Speaker 4 (03:16):
Kaylee gonzolvs Was stabbed thirty four times. Her facial structure
was extremely damaged, leaving her unrecognizable due to the severity
of the stab wounds, and she was identified by methods
other than simple visual recognition. Besides defensive marks on her arms,
Kaylee had a broken nose, to brain bleeds, and a
stab behind her clavicle which severed the subclavian vein and artery.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Just goott, that's just one of the victims. Can you
imagine what she lived through? No wonder her father, Stiggun
Solvace is beside himself. These facts kept secret from the
public until after the deal goes down.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
I don't like it.
Speaker 6 (04:00):
No, I don't.
Speaker 7 (04:00):
And this far the level of trauma here, Nancy, far
exceeded my expectation. Okay, from what I've been hearing lowth
these many years that we've been covering these cases, I
did not expect it to be to this degree. The
brutality here that has been exacted on these kids is unimaginable,
(04:21):
The trauma, the proximity to these individuals per the perpetrator,
I mean, this is an asymmetrical attack where he is
literally would literally have to be on top of a
couple of these victims, just kind of hammering down on them,
not just with the blade itself, but also inducing this
blunt force trauma which many of these victims have sustained. Nancy,
(04:45):
there's also other evidence other than just sharp force injury.
We've got indication that markings left behind may have been
generated as a result of potentially punching.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
Make sense of what you are just saying, okay, because
you use a lot of technical terms. Kelly Gonsalves was asphyxiated, Okay,
there were marks on her mouth, there were other signs
that she had been suffocated or strangled. But what is
so shocking to me amongst all of this, it's all shocking,
is that there are multiple stabs to the face.
Speaker 3 (05:25):
Susan Hendrix joining me, She.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
Has been camped outside the county courthouse there. From the
get go, author of Down the Hill, I descend into
the double murder in Delphi. There she did another deep,
deep look at the Delphi murders. Susan Hendricks, Am I
understanding this correctly? All the injuries sustained by Keilly, and
that's not even the worst. I think Matty Mogan had
even more stab wounds. But all of these stab wounds
(05:51):
to the face.
Speaker 8 (05:53):
Susan Hendricks, Yes, to me, that shows a deep rooted
hate and envy for those women. Absolutely right, Nancy, when
you say no wonder Steve was so furious and you
didn't even know what we know now. And I remember
early on, Nancy, you'll remember too that the coroner said
they were likely sleeping. What that almost sounds deliberate to
(06:15):
turn the people off, to say, oh, nothing to see here,
and knocking down the house. I mean, these injuries horrific.
You're right, Matty Mogan wounds to the face, Xana Kernodle
more than fifty stab wounds. Fifty It's unbelievable.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
Fifty to Xana, Xana, fifty stab wounds. And what's so
crazy about this is let me go to a shrink.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
Doctor John Delatori.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
Is joining us, and I want to follow up on
what Susan Hendricks just said. Delatory psychologists specializing in forensic psychology.
All these wounds to the face. Now, I'm just a
trial lawyer, okay, but this means something coologically, There's no
doubt in my mind.
Speaker 3 (07:02):
I don't care.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
If the Angel Gabriel came down and told me it
means nothing, I'd have to call him a liar. Because
when you stab a woman in the face fifty times,
or in this case, Kili Gounsolve is twenty thirty times,
Doctor John Delatory, what does it mean?
Speaker 9 (07:20):
I think you know, other guests, you're going to talk
about the level of hating and animosity towards it. But
for me, he literally tried to erase her. He literally
tried to erase her identity from this planet. He hated
her so much that she couldn't even exist as a
human being anymore. That's the level of brutality that we're
(07:41):
dealing with here. When he walked into that room, he
imagined that she would no longer exist.
Speaker 6 (07:47):
As a human.
Speaker 9 (07:49):
That's what he was searching for. That's what he was
doing with all of this stuff, and whatever way that
he could accomplish that, he was going to spend the
time necessary, because imagine how much time that he has
to spend for you know, choking and then sabbing all
across her body and then the amount of times on
her face. That takes time. That's not something that's just
(08:10):
easily done. So he wanted to do this specifically to her,
to erase her identity from this planet.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
What is so bizarre, doctor Delatory, is that he was
not insane, not insane now, not insane then, not temporary
insanity at the time.
Speaker 3 (08:28):
And when you look at him as.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
He's sitting there and sentencing, and he's looking as some
described it, and Susan Hendrix was there when he was
looking at the victims' families crying and snotting and begging
for the truth. He was described as like looking like
a hawk watching its prey, enjoying watching its squirm. And
(08:54):
this is the guy that stabbed this young girl up
to fifty times in the face the body. But I've
read a lot of studies, and I put a lot
of experts on the stand doctor Dilatory that explain that
when an attack her specifically attacks a woman's face or
(09:16):
her genitals, it's an anti woman thing.
Speaker 3 (09:21):
He is destroying her beauty.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
And there have been a lot of analyzes done on
Coburger implicating him as an in cel, an involuntary celibate
that hates women because he can't get women. Explain what
this all means. The attack to the victim's face not
just one. Kelly was totally disfigured. Dylan couldn't even identify her.
Speaker 3 (09:49):
You heard it.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
She had to be identified by means other than a
visual identification like you see in the movies and TVPSA
doesn't happen anymore where the loved one is brought in
and the all the shape back.
Speaker 3 (10:01):
That doesn't happen anymore. But when they asked Dylan.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
Who is that, she couldn't identify killing right, That's how
bad it was.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
She was stabbed so many times in the face.
Speaker 9 (10:12):
This is clearly gender based hatred. Clearly gender based hatred.
When we talk about the in cells, what we need
to remember is that they're primarily an online forum in
which all of these sad sack losers blame women for
all of their problems. Now, when we look at Coburger,
we can certainly see that there are elements in which
(10:35):
he viewed women as being subservient, as not being qualified
to be in the same room as him. But there's
a level of hatred here when it comes to these
behaviors that he's been fostering for a long period of time.
He's had to learn to control all of these behaviors.
And that's why I think you saw him the way
(10:55):
that we all saw him when it came to the
victim statements. He's taking it all in, he's listening to it.
He's in control, so he believes, and he's not going
to let anybody see what's underneath that hates.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
I got another wrench to throw in the works for
you to just mull over. We learn from inmates behind
bars now that he obsessively washes his hands over and
over and over and will spend over an hour in
the shower behind bars. So the dichotomy of him obsessively
(11:31):
cleaning himself but yet stabbing these victims up to fifty
times each. Then we see him, Susan Hendricks, as you
did in the sentencing and he did. He looked like
a hawk staring at a little varmint caught in its talons,
just watching it scorm. He liked it, Susan, Yeah, he
(11:53):
absolutely loved it.
Speaker 8 (11:54):
And I think he, for lack of a better term,
got off on the women going up to the podium
besides Olivia Gonzalvez. He did not like Kur I could
tell by his clenched jaw, but with the women, the
surviving roommates crying, and he also didn't like the men,
the men and Kelly's father turning the podium and on
the podium it said do not move.
Speaker 3 (12:16):
He didn't listen, focused.
Speaker 8 (12:17):
Right at coburger and said you picked the wrong family.
And by the way, they had heard about the thirty
plus stab wounds with Kelley, right.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, Susan. You know what, Susan,
spare me.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
Okay, I'm hoping that he got an effected him. He's living,
he's breathing, and I and you and the victims' families
are paying for it. And what I want to know,
if you have any idea why all this was kept
secret until after the deal was done, and it couldn't
be undone. There would have been a mob on the
(12:53):
courthouse steps if they had known Kelly for one like
the others were so attacked brutally.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
Step and think.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
About it, Joe Scott maybybe I'm not explaining this well,
the k bar knife and you got the same exact
kbar knife as did I. To think of that knife
in this girl's face, what thirty times that we know of,
and many of those wounds were overlapping, so you can't
differentiate one versus two versus three if the stab comes
(13:24):
down in the same spot in her face.
Speaker 3 (13:27):
This guy is laughing at Everybody's probably writing a book
right now.
Speaker 6 (13:32):
Yeah, he is.
Speaker 7 (13:32):
And I'm sure that there are academics out there that
are salivating at the opportunity to get to sit in and
sell with him. And he's going to have control now, Nancy.
He's going to have control of the conversation because he
was not forced to allocute. I'll keep preaching that over
and over again. An academic will go in there and
he will get get ready for him to be able
(13:53):
to tell his side of the story. Let me tell
you one more if you like that one. This is
what I believe. I believe that there is probably institution
out there somewhere around the world that will allow him
in prison to complete his PhD. Just chew on that
for a second. After what he did to these kids
over and over and over again. He brutalized each and
(14:14):
every one of them to the point where you've got
one child is completely unrecognizable and you've got another one
that sustained so many stab wounds, so many stab wounds
that you cannot begin to fully appreciate the savagery. I
don't think that she went through in those last moments
(14:34):
of her life. And one more thing about Ethan. You
know that image that we've seen for years and years now,
those of that streaking down the side of the house, Well, Nancy,
that turns out that that was positively examined and turns
out that that was Ethan's blood. As a forensic scientist,
I'm not going to look at an image and you
(14:56):
can take this to the bank. I've never said that
that was blood. After they have released this information, they've
said that's his blood. That gives you an idea relative
to the volume, the volume of terror, the volume of
trauma that these kids were subjected to, and it's actually
visualized on the outside of that house.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
Not only that, Joe Scott, the evidence that caller golns
solve this was asphyxiated. It's not just all the stab
wounds to the face. Yep, he silenced her.
Speaker 10 (15:31):
Listen, damage around her mouth, suggesting Coberger tried to silence
or gag her in some way.
Speaker 6 (15:37):
The family lawyer.
Speaker 10 (15:37):
Suggested a second weapon was used to inflict blunt force
trauma to her face, while others believe the trauma could
have been caused by the butt of the k bar knife.
Haley's asphyxia injuries were caused by blunt force trauma to
her face and mouth area, potentially alongside other forms of
restriction or obstruction.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
Just Scott, please explain that that this was caused by
the butt of his knife.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
Is that like pistol whipping somebody.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
With the butt of a gum but you're doing it
with the butt of that kbar.
Speaker 3 (16:06):
What does this mean?
Speaker 7 (16:07):
No, what it means is when this knife was developed, Nancy,
for the Marine Corps to use in the field, they
use it for a variety of things. Did you know
that combat, in combat, you can use this as a bludgeon.
Look at that? What does it look like? It looks
like the leading edge of a hammer, doesn't it. And
this thing is steal so as you're driving it down
like a piston, you're actually driving it down into the tissue.
(16:28):
That's going to explain a lot of the fractures that
you might see with her face, potentially because he's in
such close proximity to her as he's traumatizing her.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
Please describe in detail the level of anxiety you must
have felt when you heard the bear cat pull up
to your family home on December thirtieth, twenty twenty two.
Which do you regret more returning to the crime scene
five hours later, or never ever going back to Moscow,
(16:59):
not even one after stalking them there for months. If
you are really smart, do you think you'd be here
right now? What's it like needing this much attention just
to feel real? You're terrified of being ordinary, aren't you?
(17:20):
Do you feel anything at all? Or are you exactly
what you always feared?
Speaker 3 (17:25):
Nothing?
Speaker 2 (17:28):
If you're so powerful, then why are you still hiding?
Speaker 3 (17:30):
Defendant?
Speaker 2 (17:32):
You see I'm here today as me, But who are you?
Let's try to take off your mask and see the
truth is the scariest part about you. It's how painfully average.
You turned out to be as dumb as they come, stupid, clumsy, slow, sloppy, weak, dirty.
(17:56):
Don't ever try to convince yourself you mattered just because
someone final said your name out loud.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
You're seeing coburger there in the Senate, saying Susan Hendricks
described the way he looked, which is a complete opposite
of the person that carried out these knowing but frenzied
acts on the victim, fifty stab wounds, thirty stab wounds,
disfiguring Kelly's face with a k bar knife and the
butt of the knife. What was he like in that sentencing, Nancy?
Speaker 8 (18:25):
There was no movement at all, stoics, staring straight ahead.
The only time I saw any facial expression is when
he walked in in the beginning and then after the
break and smiled towards his mother.
Speaker 3 (18:37):
Other than that, my dad was watching.
Speaker 8 (18:39):
At home and said he has to be on medication.
He's making zero movement. I said, no, he doesn't have
the feelings. They're just not there.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
Guys, compare his demeanor in the courtroom to the frenzied
attack on the victims.
Speaker 3 (18:57):
Listen.
Speaker 4 (18:58):
The severity of Kaylee's injury was such that even roommate
Dylan Mortenson initially misidentified Kaylee as Xena due to the disfigurement.
Xanna Kernodle was awake and her order from Jack in
the Box had just been delivered when she appears to
have heard something going on in the room upstairs occupied
by Mattie and Kaylee. As Xena is on the stairs
leading upstairs, she was confronted by Coburger exiting Mattie's room,
(19:22):
and he attacks Xena as she attempts to retreat to
her room.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
Joining me is Chris mcdunna, director Cole Case Foundation, former
homicide detective who has scoured the scene as well.
Speaker 3 (19:33):
I want you to hear this and then give.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
Me your analysis of how Xana was attacked by Coburger.
It's nothing like we were told at the beginning, Like
Susan Hendricks was saying, Oh, they all were killed in
their sleep, Okay, they drifted off to death. It's anything
but listen to this.
Speaker 10 (19:56):
Chris Coberger attacks Xena, but she puts up a fight
and sustains more than fifty stab wounds. Many of Xanna's
wounds are defensive wounds, and a gash on her left
hand between her index finger and thumb, as well as
blunt force injuries on her body. A life and death
struggle between Xanna and Coberger took place in her room.
Xanna's fatal injuries identified as a laceration to her right
(20:19):
lung and two lacerations to her heart.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
Crime stories with Nancy Grace. So he was stabbing her
so brutally. He lacerated her lung and twice to the heart.
Was he just sitting on top of her, just stabbing
her over and over and over?
Speaker 3 (20:47):
What about this?
Speaker 1 (20:48):
You've had a lot of theories about the way this
thing went down, and if the public, if the world
had known what we're learning now, I think the courthouse
would have been surrounded by tor and pitchforks for Pete's sake,
not to let that sweetheart and deal go through.
Speaker 3 (21:04):
It sounds like Xana hears something.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
She was awake because she had just gotten that order
from Jack in the Box. She hears something going on
upstairs in the room occupied by Maddie and Cally. She's
on the stairs that lead to upstairs, and then is
then it's then she's confronted by Coburger. Give me your scenario, So, Nancy,
(21:29):
I mean We've talked about this many times on your show.
Speaker 11 (21:32):
Just think about this idea of the frenzy that's taking
place on the third floor that delectorium Doc Morgan's are
talking about, where this guy is trying to erase everybody
that he's contacting with. Now you have this young, innocent
human being who here's what's going on upstairs, interrupts and
(21:56):
then he turns on her like the wolf that he is,
and then slaughters her. I think that was probably the
time he dropped the sheet because she's in this frenzy.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
So Scott describe the injuries to Xanna.
Speaker 7 (22:10):
Xanna. The interesting thing about her injuries Nancy is that
she's got multiple defensive injuries. That's why I used the
term that she fought. This was like a titan like fight.
She knows that her life is coming to an end,
or she's trying to avoid it, and so she's got
multiple injuries where she's raising her arm like this and
(22:34):
her hand and these cuts run onto her arm, where
if you're talking about sword play or knife player, you're
talking about a term called perry where you're trying to
defend yourself like this. Do you remember Nancy the first
bit of physical trauma. Information that was actually leaked out
in this case had to do specifically with Xana, and
(22:56):
it had to do with the fact that that knife
had been drawn through her hand to the point where
her tendons were cut. And I knew at that moment
time that was several months ago. It seems like now
I knew at that time that she had fought ferociously.
I just didn't realize, Tancy, that this was going to
(23:17):
wind up with a total of fifty five zero injuries
to this diminutive young woman. And I see this, and
then I see that reptile in court, and I think
about this is this is no match here physically showing
up with a combat knife and he is literally just
full of anger and rage. I'm not saying that Xanna
(23:40):
was the target. I'm saying, like Chris had said, that
she became kind of like an impediment to him getting
ready to x Fill out of that house. He got
in her, she got in his way, and you know,
Katie barred the door at that point in time. The
totality of his rage is taken out on her. At
this point in the aftermath.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
Joining me now is a veteran trial lawyer Greg Morse,
criminal defense attorney at Morse's Legal author of The Untested
on Amazon. Greg, there's no need to argue with me
about guilt or innessis because he's already played guilty.
Speaker 3 (24:18):
All right.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
He's behind bars right now and you're going to hear this.
Speaker 3 (24:22):
Greg.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
He's got a tablet, he's got an iPad. He can
watch movies. He can communicate with the outside world. He's
got email, he can listen to music. He can have
his vegan diet. He can write books. There is no
son of Sam law in Idaho, which means he can
make money off of his books and his appearances. If
(24:45):
he dials into some no son of Sam protection laws
in Idaho, he can call zoom in from his laptop
to the next criminal defense gala and give his side.
He didn't speak, of course, it's sentencing. He won't be
cross examined.
Speaker 3 (25:06):
Blah blah blah. It goes on.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
He can have visits from women, he can have girlfriends.
Look at your on Vandersliet. He's had two children behind bars.
It goes on. Greg Morse, I want to talk to
you about why these incendiary fact incendiary. Think about that
word incendiary. What is an incendiary device like a Molotov cocktail.
(25:30):
You throw it, it hits and it blows up and
destroys everything around it. These incendiary facts are now being
released after the deed is done.
Speaker 3 (25:43):
Greg and I think that is wrong.
Speaker 6 (25:48):
Well, it's not, it's not. The case is over, and
I'd be shocked if all the family members didn't have
access to this information if they wanted to with the prosecutor,
you know you were a prosecut Nancy. Criminal law is
not for the media. It happens in the courtroom and
in offices, and it's very different than what gets played
out in public. And at the end of the day,
(26:10):
while you can look at these facts and say they're
you know, they're right, they're aggravating factors. If this were
the death penalty and we moved on to the death
penalty phase of the case, he went to trial and
was convicted, the government would be obviously putting all of
these extreme violence that he did to these people as
aggravating factors that weren't the death penalty. However, all of
(26:31):
that being said, that doesn't bring solace. It doesn't change
the fact that he has multiple life sentences. The family
will not feel unaccomplishing.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
You a soulless I'm certainly not asking a criminal defense
attorney to speak to the suffering of crime victims. You
represent the bad guys. Okay, let's just get that straight. Okay,
that's what you do. I'm asking you about the fact
that these incendiary details were kept secret, and yes, I
(27:04):
understand that they were kept secret for a reason.
Speaker 3 (27:08):
But in my mind, this.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
Is justification to seek the death penalty, not to have
him laid up in a cell washing his hands with
pure l watching an X rated video on his iPad. No, again,
here we're learning Keiley was disfigured with a k bar
knife to the face.
Speaker 3 (27:28):
What thirty times?
Speaker 6 (27:30):
I didn't need to read all the penalformation. You're right,
it doesn't do anything. It doesn't stop crime. There are
people in the Idaho Maximum Prison since nineteen eighty five
that are still waiting for execution. Nobody doesn't commit a
crime because someone got the death penalty. Those type of
cases do not lead to that result. The death penalty
is a waste. All it would do in this case
(27:51):
is Okay.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
I'm going to ask you again to start preaching the
pros and cause of the death penertation.
Speaker 3 (27:56):
I'm telling you and asking.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
You, do you think the public would have gone along
with this deal if they had known the truth?
Speaker 6 (28:03):
The public's irrelevant.
Speaker 3 (28:04):
It's not fair.
Speaker 6 (28:05):
That's all that matters. But no one cares. You're not
in the case. Nobody cares, like it doesn't matter, you
don't matter, No one matters. I don't matter. It's those victims'
families that matter. And what and prosecutors, you were one.
You have to make a hard choice in difficult situations.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
And there is absolutely no Greg Moore, Yeah, it does matter.
It does matter because prosecutor doesn't do anything to.
Speaker 3 (28:31):
Do the right thing.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
This was not the right thing to stab a young
girl in the face thirty or more times with that
thing right there, and nobody knows that until now. Uh
uh oh. You keep saying you don't matter, I don't matter.
That's bs We do matter. Every voice matters, every voice matters.
(28:57):
He was entrusted with doing the right thing by the public,
doing the right thing for the public, the people in Idaho,
and this was not the right thing. Now we're learning
about all of these disgusting facts. I mean, Joe Scott,
you've scoured the medical Examiner's report.
Speaker 3 (29:18):
What repels you the most. If you can even pick.
Speaker 7 (29:22):
I don't know that I can. I can't narrow it
down because it's so vast, Nancy. Out of all the
cases certainly that I've covered in the media, this farester
passes when you're talking about an edged weapon. I've never
seen this, Nancy. I never saw it. In all my
years in practice in New Orleans and Atlanta, I've never
seen four people, four four people, this disfigured, this brutalized
(29:45):
in one location with one case. This far exceeds anything
that I can imagine. But also there's one other element here,
and this might be more of a John comment, but
the idea that the terror that they lived in in
those final moments, and I don't know that we can
take the measure I think on trauma. You can't take
(30:07):
the measure on what they went through in those final moments.
Speaker 6 (30:10):
Nancy.
Speaker 7 (30:11):
It's something that you cannot absolutely quantify.
Speaker 10 (30:15):
Madison Mogen might have been asleep when Brian Coberger snuck
into the room to attack, but she woke up to
fight back against her killer. Mattie had defensive wounds to
her forearms and hands, indicating she was not stabbed to
death in her sleep with no awareness to what was happening.
Her death was caused by lacerations to her liver and
left lung from sharp forced injuries, and she suffered a
(30:36):
gash extending from her eye to her nose. On the
third floor, Kaylee and Madison are found together in a
bed under a pink blanket covered in blood. There is
a large pool of blood near Kaylee's midsection and blood
spatter on the walls. The officer notes Mattie appears to
be laying up against Kaylee, and Maddie has what appeared
to be wounds to her forearm and hands. A gash
(30:57):
from under her right eye appears to go from the
corner of her eye to her nose. The officer notes
Kayleie is unrecognizable as her facial structure is extremely damaged.
Speaker 1 (31:12):
Crime stores with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
You want the truth, Here's the one you'll hate the most.
If you hadn't attacked them in their sleep in the
middle of the night like a pedophile, Kaylee.
Speaker 3 (31:27):
Would have kicked your gass.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
Thank you.
Speaker 10 (31:31):
As Xana Kernodle puts up a fight, her boyfriend Ethan
Chapin appears to have been asleep and never woke up.
Ethan died from sharp force injuries, and the fatal injury
was a stab wound under his left clavicle. This wound
severed his subclavian vein in subclavian artery as well as
his jugular vein.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
Talk like that would have thrown me completely over the
edge of the cliff if I were trying this case.
You have to have the medical examiner explain in regular
people talk what he said saying. What he's saying is
that Ethan was likely attacked in his sleep. His body
found lying in bed, partially under a blanket covering his
(32:11):
midsection and bottom line. Susan Hendrix, his jugular vein was sliced,
there was arterial bleeding which likely went all the way
up to the ceiling. That's what happened to this beautiful
young boy, explaining Susan Hendrix.
Speaker 8 (32:31):
Absolutely and the authorities who first came into that room
says there was blood smeared all over the walls, and
I go back to the corner, saying they were likely
killed in their sleep. It looked like a horror seed
like a movie all around that house. And the attorney
mentioned defense attorney who matters guests who felt like they
didn't matter. All of the family members and Caylee's father
(32:54):
has been saying that from the start, and he didn't
even know the extent of the injuries so much so
they made mattered that they only had twenty four hours
they found out the email that there was a plea
deal that was reached. They felt like they didn't matter.
They were a secondary thought.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
Okay, Greg Morrise, you can put that. Let me just
put it mildly. Well, I can think of a lot
of places you could shove that, but I'll just say
correct it. Put it in your pipe and smoke it.
Speaker 6 (33:22):
Let's correct. The mischaracter deal has already.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
Done and sealed before the family got to even talk
about it.
Speaker 12 (33:27):
The victim and your families matter, not the panelists. And
also correct the information son of Samuel's victims family unconstitutional.
Speaker 6 (33:39):
So just to say who matters? What I'm talking about
is the public's view for justice, mercy, whatever doesn't matter.
It's about the victims, the victim's family, the prosecutor. So
we're talking about this in a vacuum. But the prosecutors
spoken with the victims family and the only thing that
can give them solace is their loved one back, and
that's impossible, so of course they're going to be.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
That's not correct, Tim, if you out my season, Hendricks,
wasn't this plea agreed upon before the victims' families found
out about it? I'm not talking about the public. I'm
not talking about Morse or anybody else on this panel,
because at least to that little tiny bit extent, Morse
is right. What we think doesn't matter because it's already done.
(34:24):
It's over. Isn't it true, Hendrix, that this deal was
agreed upon before the family even knew about it. They
were notified in an email, Hey, here's the deal.
Speaker 3 (34:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 8 (34:35):
Steve Gonzalez was so furious he didn't even go into
court when it was announced that a plea deal has
been reached. He was infuriated. Kelly's brother is still They're
all still infuriated.
Speaker 3 (34:49):
Didn't speak of the victim impact statements.
Speaker 8 (34:51):
He said, I just feel like I couldn't contain myself
what was decided around us, not for us, around us,
giving them really twenty four hours to get to that
courtroom to hear that a plea deal has been reached.
They felt left out, They didn't even know, and I
don't know what kind of inspired the prosecutor, if you will,
(35:12):
to tell them how brutal the attacks were. But they
heard just hours before the victim impacts statements. They weren't
even going to hear them. It's just they kept them out.
You're right, we don't matter they do, and they were
tossed to the side of it, I believe.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
And let me be very very clear regarding son of
Sam laws a US Supreme Court case, I believe it
was about the movie Wise Guys. But regardless of the movie,
the Supreme Courts reversed the son of Sam law the
national law. However, since that time, forty or more states
(35:51):
have enacted their own state wide son of Sam laws
that comply to the federal US Supreme Court case.
Speaker 3 (36:01):
So there are son of Sam laws.
Speaker 1 (36:04):
In effect right now that are constitutionally approved, but not Idaho.
Therefore Coburger can make money. Yes he can, Oh, yes
he can.
Speaker 3 (36:18):
Now.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
We are also learning from recently released files the Coburger
is called red handed stalking the victims. We find out
in the files that repeatedly these young girls saw someone
lurking in that tree line.
Speaker 3 (36:36):
Hey new yourk control room, Please.
Speaker 1 (36:38):
Show me the home the King wrote address, especially that
one video where McDonough and.
Speaker 3 (36:45):
I walked up behind the house.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
There's an higher vantage point if you can get the video,
get it because that's the tree line. I think they're
talking about Chris McDonough. Repeatedly.
Speaker 3 (36:58):
The dog I think the dog's name.
Speaker 1 (36:59):
Is Murph would go and attack the tree line uncharacteristically.
I mean, you know when your dog is doing something
they don't normally do.
Speaker 13 (37:10):
That.
Speaker 1 (37:10):
There you go, there you go. There's a tree line.
I think they're talking about Chris McDonough. They saw a
shadowy figure skulking in those trees. The dog would go
and attack at the time they saw the shadowy figure
and when they didn't see the shadowy figure, but they
now believe he was there. And hold on, mcdunna, you've
(37:32):
got to see this before you weigh in on one
of his many outings to scout the murder, saying, idiot
Coburger was actually pulled over watch this killer on cam.
Speaker 13 (37:49):
Hey there, I stuffed you go a little fast. You
didn't realize this is a thirty five. It's thirty five,
it is, yeah, so you go out forty yeah, forty
three is what the radar said. Oh, yeah, you have
your license, that registration insurance. Were you wearing your seat
(38:13):
belt when I stopped you? No, that's no good, right,
be honest with you. Yeah, I appreciate that.
Speaker 1 (38:24):
I mean, really, Chris McDonough, he's on his way to
stalk the victims, to spy on him, sneak around, skulk
in that tree line and watch them maybe inside undressing
or whatever he tried to catch visually. And he's pulled
over for exceeding speed limit, not wearing a seat belt.
How relieved is he? He's planning a quadruple murder.
Speaker 3 (38:49):
Chris.
Speaker 11 (38:49):
Yeah, and Nancy and you and I stood right there
and looked in the same vantage point he did. And
so you know, it's important to understand if you're going
to go sit down with you better understand the neighborhood he.
Speaker 6 (39:02):
Hangs out in.
Speaker 11 (39:04):
And when you have the disc attorney later on here
not taking a shot at my colleague here, but when
you have the DA, you know, coming and telling the
world we're not really sure what his motive is. We're
not sure if there's a sexual component to this, etc.
Speaker 6 (39:18):
Etc.
Speaker 3 (39:19):
Etc.
Speaker 11 (39:20):
Well, what are you sure of then in his totality
because the public is sure they're connecting the dots that
you know, there's information that this.
Speaker 6 (39:30):
Guy brutally did what he did, how he.
Speaker 11 (39:32):
Did it, and all of a sudden, the families becoming
an attachment to the email.
Speaker 6 (39:40):
That oh, by the way, we're going to make a
deal with the devil. Here. There's something wrong here.
Speaker 3 (39:44):
There's something definitely wrong here. You know, I want you
to hear this too.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
So here he is, he's out stalking the victims, and
we have him on video en routed to the murder
saying he's pulled over for exceeding to speed limit, not
by much, and he's worried about insurance.
Speaker 3 (40:10):
Listen, yeah, I just.
Speaker 13 (40:11):
Have a question about that. So in terms of what
we want to got to scream and such, futs off,
he's superford it to your insurances in the same way
for this Still, I don't think so. I think it's
only moving violations that go to insurance for things that
might put points on your license. Yeah, I'm not one
hundred percent sure, long block. What I'm like, Okay, could
I get a phone number for you?
Speaker 10 (40:33):
Yeah?
Speaker 13 (40:33):
What we need to put it on the citation as
it goes.
Speaker 6 (40:37):
To the court.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
And he's worried that his phone number is going to
be on the citation. He ain't crazy delatory. He's asking
about his driver's license, registration, insurance. He doesn't want his
cell number on the police report. He is not crazy.
No wonder they didn't put up the insanity defense because
(40:58):
you play this here he is out talking the victims
home and he's caught and he's perfectly sane.
Speaker 6 (41:06):
Yeah, he's perfectly saying.
Speaker 9 (41:07):
He's clearly logical and rational, and what he's wanting to
do now, the behavior that he ends up doing is
completely irrational. There's no reason for him to have done
this other than he wanted to.
Speaker 6 (41:20):
That's the key.
Speaker 9 (41:21):
Everything was about him wanting to hurt these people. Everything
is about how he it feels frustrated and just wants
to erase these people as an exemplar of his overall
level of frustration with what's going on with.
Speaker 1 (41:37):
Nje wanted more than that delatry. I think he wanted
to have sex with the women, but he has been
rejected by people so many times. I mean, whoa, whoa, wha,
whoa whoa.
Speaker 3 (41:49):
Isn't it true?
Speaker 1 (41:50):
Dave mag joining me Crime Story's investigative reporter, that one
woman met up with him via tender and he started
asking her about what would be the worst way to
be murdered.
Speaker 3 (42:02):
That was their last date. What happened, Dave.
Speaker 14 (42:05):
Mac They actually met through kender, like you said, and
during the course of their date, the day shares a
story of a murder that took place in her hometown.
And as they talked further, Coberger actually asked her about
what would the worst way to die be and I
think she said knife, and he suggested out of the
(42:26):
thin air, a k bar knife. Until this story came out, Nancy,
a lot of us had no idea of what a
k bar knife was.
Speaker 6 (42:35):
Why would anyone bring it up on a date.
Speaker 1 (42:37):
Let's let the defense attorney answer that. So he meets
a tender date, he wants to have sex with her.
Speaker 13 (42:42):
So his.
Speaker 1 (42:45):
Lead up to that to woo her is talking about
what would be the worst way for her to be murdered.
Speaker 3 (42:52):
She says by knife. He goes, oh, like a k
bar what a co inky name.
Speaker 6 (42:56):
Greg Morris, No, you're right, and I think you know
this is the unfortunate situation of society. People don't think
someone acting weird or something. They just kind of forget
about it. That's out of their life. But that's why
I keep non emergency police agency number in my phone
for my local community. No, that's not what I'm saying.
You're sitting here talking what I'm saying, So let's talk
(43:18):
about No. No, what I'm pointing out. That's a you're
one hundred percent right, that's a bizarre way to talk
to a woman you're on a date with. Right, that's unusual.
He's a weird guy. We also have the experience they were.
Speaker 1 (43:32):
Pointed with him a man, Well you got it talking
a week to the murder and he's talking to his
sex target.
Speaker 6 (43:40):
Amount of k bar, Nancy. Any prosecutor could win this
case like this is easy to win from the prosecution side.
So what does that add to where we are today? Nothing.
He would have been convicted. He committed the crimes. And
my guess is, if you look through this guy's video history,
you probably watched the documentary The Cheshire Murders. That's point
because this is very reminiscent, except not as extreme because
(44:03):
they let their victims on fire in Connecticut, and the
Connecticut chose to bring the death penalty back for those
two were Idaho chose not to follow it. In this
case and give life sentences. But my guess is when
he went to that strip club and he was the
only person there, he was tempted to maybe act out then,
but he got scared. That's why he didn't. He was
leading up to what unfortunately happened to those young folks
(44:27):
that he was convicted of. But there's a weirdident.
Speaker 1 (44:32):
Dilatory, did you hear more? Oh, I'm still hearing him.
It's like a gnat. I can hear it, but I
can't see it. Doctor Delatory. You hear more saying something
about society blah blah blah blah, and then it's an
unfortunate thing that happened. It's like they had an accident
or something. This is not unfortunate. It's a quadruple premeditated,
(44:57):
frenzied brutal pack.
Speaker 3 (45:00):
You can't explain it away.
Speaker 1 (45:03):
And the deal was done in secret and presented by
email to the victims family. If the world had known
the facts we're learning now, and I'm just this is
a tip of the iceberg. No one would have agreed
to this. There would be an uprise in an insurrection.
Speaker 9 (45:20):
Yeah, I think the idea is what we have to
remember that there are no coincidences in murder investigations, right,
these past behaviors are clearly indicative of what he is
going on in his mind, because it's too specific. As
for the deal happening in secret, I mean, in what
other way can can the prosecutor kind of get this
through if it's not in secret. I think the prosecutor
(45:43):
knew that this was going to look poorly amongst the community,
amongst society, and amongst the victims' families, so we needed
to push it through in a way that he can
kind of say, you know, listen, this was kind of
spur of the moment. We needed to get this done.
Speaker 6 (45:57):
I think.
Speaker 9 (45:59):
I think in the US mind, he's probably trying to
save the feelings of the family, but the family deserved
their opportunity to be to have their voices heard.
Speaker 10 (46:07):
A court surviving room made Dylan Mortenson heard a person
she believed was Kaylee screamed that somebody was in the house,
then heard someone run down from the third floor to
Xanna's room on the second floor, where she then heard
what she called a commotion. Mortenson, here's an unfamiliar male
voice say you're going to be fine. I'm going to
help you.
Speaker 15 (46:27):
Dylan was in her room while hearing the commotion, only
briefly opening up her door to see if she could
tell what was happening. After hearing the man saying I'm
going to help you, Dylan opens the door and sees Coburger,
describing him to Officer Noon as as six feet tall, slim,
build a black mask with bushy eyebrows.
Speaker 1 (46:44):
Joe Scott Morgan joining US Professor Forensics and star on
body Bags podcast with Joe Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, the
prosecutor has come out and said the reason Kyburger didn't
murder Dylan Mortenson is because he Kyburger was afraid, didn't
he say.
Speaker 8 (47:02):
That Susan Hendricks absolutely afraid that maybe someone would see
him because of all the commotion. But now that I
hear the details, they are so lucky. I believe he
would have done it in an instant, killed Bethany and
Dylan if he saw them.
Speaker 3 (47:15):
Jo Scott, that's total bs. He just frendz.
Speaker 1 (47:18):
The attacked a young girl, stabbing here in the face
with thirty times another one fifty times in total, slicing
Ethan's jugular vein, asphyxiation, beating with the butt of a
knife block just he's not afraid of Dylan Morton's So
why is the prosecutor saying that.
Speaker 6 (47:36):
I don't know.
Speaker 7 (47:37):
I've given this some thought, Nancy. And one of the
things that I kind of thought about, if he is
targeting one of the two victims on the third floor,
he goes in, he murders, slaughters both these two precious souls,
then is he's on an adrenaline high at that moment,
Tom And so after that adrenaline dump, he's coming down,
(47:59):
coming down the stairs case at which time he encounters
Xana and it's then his adrenaline he gets another adrenaline dump,
chases her into the room. I think that he's completely exhausted.
I think that probably he's got the thousand yards stare
where he's just focused on trying to get the hell
out of this place as quickly as he can. And
(48:20):
you know, I don't know. I guess he has a
survival instinct. He seems like he's more bent on trying
to impress law enforcement at traffic stops. And then of
course we hear about him trying to dominate the initial
conversation that he had with the police. It's really he's
kind of hard to figure out. But I don't think
that he is truly hard to figure out. Again, I
(48:42):
think he's like a reptile. I don't think he has
a soul. Nancy, I really don't.
Speaker 1 (48:46):
We stop now to remember an American hero officer, Jacob
Chaffin's Prestonburgh PD, just twenty eight years old, shot in
the line of duty. Lead's behind grieving widow wife Hannah,
A little girl, Paisley, American hero officer in Jacob Chaffin's
Nancy Gray signing off good bye friend,
Host
Nancy Grace
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