February 26, 2025 • 42 mins
Bryan Kohberger's attorneys have filed a motion to remove the death penalty as a sentencing option for their client. Their motion, titled “Motion to Strike Death Penalty RE: Autism Spectrum Disorder,” was filed Monday, along with a separate motion to "Redact or Seal Newly Filed Records in Support of Their Motion to Strike Death Penalty RE: Autism Spectrum Disorder Under Seal."
This indicates the defense is citing autism spectrum disorder in its effort to keep Kohberger off death row. As of early this morning, the full documents were not publicly available online. The motions are sealed, so it remains unclear whether Kohberger has been diagnosed or if the defense is seeking a diagnosis.
Meanwhile, Judge Stephen Hippler ruled against Kohberger’s defense regarding the DNA technique used to identify him as a suspect in the quadruple homicide case. Hippler determined that police did not violate Kohberger’s constitutional rights, stating there is "no reasonable expectation of privacy in identity" and that Kohberger’s team "did not prove that his DNA was tested for anything other than identifying purposes." The judge wrote, "Even if the DNA analysis revealed sensitive personal details, there is no reasonable expectation of privacy in crime scene DNA."
Hippler has rejected multiple defense motions to suppress evidence. He ruled that police did not violate Kohberger’s constitutional rights during searches leading up to his arrest. One motion sought to exclude genetic evidence obtained through forensic genealogy, but the court found no violation. The defense also requested a hearing to determine whether the court was misled in obtaining warrants, but the judge denied the request. The court upheld digital evidence from Kohberger’s Google, Apple, Amazon, and AT&T accounts, dismissing claims that the FBI’s subpoenas constituted warrantless searches and ruling that the search warrants were valid
Joining Nancy Grace today:
- Philip Dubé - Former Court-Appointed Counsel, Los Angeles County Public Defenders: Criminal & Constitutional Law, Forensics & Mental Health Advocacy
- Dr. Bethany Marshall - Psychoanalyst, Author: "Deal Breaker," Featured in hit show: "Paris in Love" on Peacock; Instagram & TikTok: drbethanymarshall, X: @DrBethanyLive
- Chris McDonough - Director At the Cold Case Foundation, Former Homicide Detective; Host of YouTube channel, "The Interview Room."
- Dr. Monte Miller - Director, Forensic DNA Experts LLC, Specialist in Sexual Assaults and Murder, Former Forensic Scientist for Texas Dept. of Public Safety State Crime Lab Foresnsic
- Joseph Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet," and Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan;" X @JoScottForensic
- Germania Rodriguez - Germania Rodriguez, Chief US Reporter, DailyMail.com and host of Welcome to MAGAland podcast
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
A shock Coburger claim that an eyewitness says the killer
fled the murder scene with a hand hel vacuum. And
now after reading court documents, we learn did Coburger get
rid of his shower curtain?
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Wonder why?
Speaker 2 (00:28):
I mean, see Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thank you
for being with us. Just around three am and a
man named.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
Brian Christopher Coburger was taken into custody.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Coburger claims he was driving his car as he often
did to hike and run and or see the moon
and stars.
Speaker 4 (00:45):
Our defens team firmly, and I mean firmly, believes in
mister Coberger's innocense.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Okay, well, she may be firm in her belief, but
a grand jury has handed down and with Trubal charging
him with four murders, the murders of four Beautiful University
Idaho students dead slaughtered in their beds, and tonight we
learned the eyewitness states the killer fled the scene with
(01:18):
a hand that listen.
Speaker 4 (01:21):
Hippler's ruling also revealed new details of what surviving roommate
Dylan Mortenson saw the night of the murders in the
closed door hearing, the defense attempts to argue Mortenson's account
is unreliable, and while the judge agrees Mortensen was likely
drunk during the murders, he points out that her statements
to police were very similar each time, and other evidence
(01:42):
corroborates what she witnessed. Hipler reveals that in Mortenson's second
and third interviews, she mentions the suspect carrying what looked
to be a handheld vacuum.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Oh, according to reports, that is so Coburger with the
hand hell of that?
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Who else would do that? Now?
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Guys, let me get straight out to Hermonia Rodriguez joining
US chief US reporter with Dailymail dot Com and host
off Welcome to magaaland podcast.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
No Politics on crime stories.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Okay, no crime, no crime victim is a political football,
So everybody keep your politics to yourself. Back to the
hand that, Harmonia, What do you know?
Speaker 5 (02:28):
That's right?
Speaker 6 (02:28):
These new court documents are offering new details about the
investigation that led police to Brian Coberger. We know that
there were surviving roommates that were in the house and
one of them said that she saw a boushy eyed man.
We know Coburger's eyebrows have been a topic of debate
after this surviving witness said they saw a white, tall
(02:51):
man with bushy eyebrows.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Now now we.
Speaker 6 (02:54):
Know that she also said in following interviews that he
was carrying Okay, that's bushie.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Wait a minute, Harmonia, look that Okay, hold that is bushi.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Go ahead. Correct.
Speaker 6 (03:06):
That has been a topic of discussion, and that part
of the witnesses testimony has never changed the description of
what the suspect to look like. However, it appears on
in her initial interviews she hadn't mentioned the handheld vacuum.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Now we know that this witness has.
Speaker 6 (03:21):
Said her mind wasn't clear, that she was kind of
in a dream like state. Of course, Coberger's team of
lawyers have gone after this young woman's credibility, saying that
what she is saying cannot be trusted because she admitted.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
To being in a not clear state of mind.
Speaker 6 (03:39):
Now, the judge said that even Ifmonia and put her up, Harmonia,
I asked you about the handheld vack and so far what.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
I've heard is everything wrong. When the eyewitnesses statement, can
you tell me about the vacuum? I'll give do Bay
a chance to slice the poor witness to shreds before
I so were back together again? Thatack vack vacuum harmonia.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
Right, so, as I said.
Speaker 6 (04:09):
The surviving roommate said she saw the suspect bushy eyebrowed
suspect leaving with a hand held vacuum. She also had
said as we already knew that the suspect said something
like I'm here to help before he exited their home
through a sliding door quietly. This witness has said she
(04:30):
then went back to sleep. Wasn't clear on what happened,
but she has repeated in several interviews this detail about
the handheld vacuum.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
Well, obviously it stood out in her mind. She says,
Oh my stars, he had a handback. That's not the
kind of detail you can insert into someone's memory. Okay,
I need a shrink before Dubay jumps on this. Doctor
Bethany Marshall joining us, so, I say, COO analyst joining
us out of la, author of deal Breakers. You can
find her at doctor Bethanymarshall dot com. You can see
(05:00):
her now on Peacock Doctor Bethany. It doesn't end there.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
Everybody on the.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
Panel, I want you to envision what you have in
your closet, what you keep in the deep dark recesses
in the back of your closet.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
Okay, now listen to this.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
The defense also argues that Moscow Pede failed to disclose
that lab testing did not reveal any of the victims
DNA in Coburger's car or apartment, but a search warrant
return did list a vacuum candister having been removed from
a closet in Coburger's Pullman apartment, where investigators also found
a black glove and receipts. Coburger's shower curtains had been removed,
(05:38):
and all trash cans were empty.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
Well, he's certainly the Nate Nick. There's a lot there
to dissect. But can we just talk about the fact
that in his closet, in the back, dark, deep recesses
of his closet, he has a vacuum canister a spare?
Speaker 1 (05:54):
Do you have one of those in your closet? By
all your designers? She used, doctor Bethany, I bet you die,
I do not.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Can we talk about the killer with a handbag? What
does it say, Nancy?
Speaker 7 (06:06):
We use handbags to clean things up, right, So obviously
he was anticipating a messy scene and the fact that
he would need to clean things up, or he was
looking for tokens or fetishes or something he could suck
up before he left, so he would have something to
play with, toy with. But I think it's likely that
it was just an instrument for cleaning after at the
(06:29):
commission of a crime which obviously he got scared off
and he didn't complete.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
Okay, maybe I'm the crazy one on this panel, but
I guess I have to spell it out for Joe
Scott Morgan and doctor Bethany Marshall.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
But I need the help.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
Of doctor Monte Miller joining US Director Forensic DNA Expert
Specialist and forensic Science forensic Scientists for Texas Department Public Safety.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
And it goes on and on.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
You can find doctor Monty Miller at Crime Lab Forensic
DNA Experts dot com.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
Doctor Monte Miller.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
Okay, address on the blackboard, spell it out for me.
Why would a killer bring a handback to a murder scene?
Speaker 5 (07:20):
Yeah, I mean did he bring it or did he
take it from there?
Speaker 8 (07:25):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (07:25):
I mean you would only bring it for you know,
to clean up, to like vacuum stuff off of you
and things like that, so that you wouldn't leave it
in your car, So he might have just brought his
own and then kind of used it to clean himself
up so that he doesn't leave a mess in his car.
They didn't find anything in his car, and maybe because
he cleaned up.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Obviously he took the handback to get rid of evidence.
And no, he did not steal their vacuum cleaner. He
took the vacuum cleaner with him. The only question is
why I'm going to give Joe Scott Morgan another swing
at the ball be succinct.
Speaker 9 (08:08):
So you're telling me that he thought so far ahead
that he's going to bring a handheld back with him
in addition to a knife, and he's going to take
time to utilize this vacuum cleaner in order to clean
up what's he going to clean up? All of the
wet blood in there? Because it's not going to work.
(08:30):
This guy's supposed to be some kind of forensic genius.
Remember they've talked about this forever and ever. This is
not going to be appropriate for the task at hand.
I can't I would.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
He put him up. Scott Scott, my friend and colleague.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
He brings a handback to the same that's what prosecutors
are going to argue to clean up Evans?
Speaker 1 (08:50):
Was that feasible? Did it make sense?
Speaker 5 (08:52):
No?
Speaker 1 (08:52):
But think think think, you think, think, use that noodle.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
Joe Scott, what does he do for a little He
teaches forensic science, criminology.
Speaker 9 (09:04):
And his inflating what he does with forensic science. I've
gone over this over and over and over again. He
is studying criminal You're just.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
Saying that because you're a forensic you don't like to
with you. He's a PhD student criminologist. He's a team
a teaching assistant.
Speaker 9 (09:22):
In criminology, not forensic science. Okay, just because you.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
I don't know, Okay, he certainly knows, Joe Scott.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
You know what, let's just everybody stipulate he's know Joe
Scott Morgan. Now that's with his limited understanding as a
student of criminology. He takes a handback to the murder scene,
thinking somehow he's going to get rid of evidence.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
Obviously that's not feasible. But in his.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
Mind, having only got book learning about crime, I mean,
why else would he bring a handback to the scene.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
Again, be succinct.
Speaker 9 (09:59):
He not going to bring a handheld back to the scene.
I don't believe it. I'm just not buying this is
what he brought to this case.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
So are you saying he still Are you saying he
stole it? Did he steal a handback? I guess house
and steals a handbag?
Speaker 9 (10:14):
We have to go back?
Speaker 1 (10:15):
Well, then are you saying the witness is lying?
Speaker 9 (10:17):
No, I'm saying that she's not remembering correctly, is what
I'm saying. You know, bushy eyebrow's face covered, it's dark.
You know she's saying that he also had a hand
handhaild vack.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
Okay, so you are accepting part of her description but
not the other part because you, a professor forensics, doesn't
think it's feasible. You know what, Let me just jog
everyone's recollection.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
Listen.
Speaker 3 (10:44):
The police source says Brian Coberger cleaned his car meticulously,
both inside and out, in the days leading up to
his arrests. The source, speaking anonymously, says, during the four
days of surveillance at the Coburger family's Pennsylvania home, the
suspect was detailing his white Honda a Lantra quote not
missing an inch. Some of the trash taken from the
(11:06):
car was deposited in a neighbor's trash bin at four
a m. Agents recovered the garbage and some items were
sent to the Idaho State Lab for testing. Detectives also
seized a car vacuum reportedly used to clean out vehicle.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
Okay, doctor Bethany Marshall, that's what we call a pattern
m modus operadi method of operation. He's cleaning up at
three and four am, wearing underwear, shorts and plastic gloves
at his parents' house. He's putting I guess, evidence into
(11:46):
separate plastic bags, putting them in the Dixie dumpster and
putting them in the neighbors trash wearing plastic gloves.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
When they go to his home.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
His apartment in Woman, ten minutes away from the murder scene.
His apartment is meticulous, no trash in the trash cans,
and he has destroyed gotten rid of his shower curtain.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
Think think, think think.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
Of course, he took a hand back to the murder
scene and his limited understanding of what a murder scene
really is. You know, he's seen pictures and read books.
He thinks he can remove forensic evidence.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
It fits perfectly with what we know of him.
Speaker 7 (12:29):
Okay, So, Nancy, I think he's obsessive, compulsive, and we
see this in this meticulous planning to commit this crime.
He probably researched it. There's probably evidence in his computers.
He probably thought about it day and night, probably prepared
the car, prepared the handbag to take there, and he
probably meticulously studied the house. So criminals who want to
(12:54):
commit to homicide, not only are they compulsive, meaning they
just they can't discharge a new vitralized anxiety without committing
an act, but they also become so obsessed with every
single detail.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
Joining me.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
Now we've been holding him at Bay renowned defense attorney
joining us out.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
On la Philip Dubay, Okay, have at it?
Speaker 5 (13:18):
Have it?
Speaker 10 (13:19):
What I mean, Listen, a lot of unsophisticated criminals think
that a dustbuster is going to pick up all shedding,
slough off in trace evidence. It's ridiculous. It's not going
to happen. You're going to leave behind minuscule.
Speaker 5 (13:32):
Pieces of.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
Hair follicles, skin.
Speaker 10 (13:37):
Follicles, You're going to leave behind dust, your own DNA,
your own touch DNA. And to think that a dustbuster
is going to clean up the scene is actually lappable.
And frankly, this could support the argument that maybe he
is a little on the spectrum because it's kind.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
Okay, So to me that argument, you have to admit
he did the crime. If you're claiming some sort of
midtal defense, you have the only way to do that
under our American jurisprudence is to say I did it,
but I was insane. Okay, Now, under the spectrum does
not rise to insanity. We all know that, let's not
most lead anyone regarding the definition of insanity in our country.
(14:15):
So of course it's a given to everybody on this
panel and probably all of our viewers that a.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
Handback is not going to get rid of evidence.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
The point is a person obsessed with crime, a person
that only knows about crime through boot learning and a classroom,
has never been to an actual murder scene, has no
idea what that encompasses. A person that is anal compulsive, fastidious,
that is known to vacuum excessively, even keeping an extra
(14:46):
vacuum canister in the deep dark recesses of his closet
would bring a handback to a murder scene. This is
him fitting him to a t. I don't understand the
issue you got having. Chris McDonough you're the homicide investigator.
Is this making any sense? Or am I just screaming
(15:06):
out the window on Third Avenue here?
Speaker 11 (15:09):
Well, there's a there's another possibility. I mean, remember, whatever
comes into that scene, there's a potential that it doesn't leave,
i e.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
Cross contamination.
Speaker 11 (15:19):
And so I'm with Doc Morgan on this one, to
be honest with you, because the other possibility is we
don't know if one of the victims picked up that
handback and use it as a weapon of defense whilst
they were being attacked.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
Okay, you've all gone insane.
Speaker 12 (15:38):
The person who did his crime looked at one of
the victims instead.
Speaker 8 (15:41):
I'm here to help me.
Speaker 12 (15:43):
If that's not malice. That's the most type of people
that you could ever hear.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
It shouldn't be rewarded.
Speaker 7 (15:49):
With the suit and a first chirut every time of
what he can do.
Speaker 12 (15:53):
That's why that's wow.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Straight out to an investigative reporter.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
The chief US reporter with Dailymail dot Com, host of
Welcome to Magaland podcast, Harmonia Rodriguez Harmonia the Latest, it's
a bottshell. The defense is arguing coburger surfers autism.
Speaker 6 (16:15):
Yeah, it's truly shocking. They file this motion on Monday.
It's worth noting that this defense team has filed many
different motions and defenses that have delayed this case for
years now. The latest they are asking that prosecutors do
not seek the death penalty because Coburger they say it's
(16:35):
on the autism spectrum. Again, this is the first time
we hear this. We have never heard before that Coburger
is autistic. Now this is going to be another court fight.
While I'm sure the prosecution asks for any evidence of
this autism as again, it has never been introduced to
court before. In their motion, the defense has not filed
(16:57):
any evidence, any testing to support disclaim of autism, but
they want the death penalty punishment dropped before the trials.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
Harmonia Rodriguez, correct me if I'm wrong, But didn't the
murders occur just before Thanksgiving break at University Idaho specifically
November thirteen, twenty twenty two.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
Is that correct? That's a yes. No, that's that's all right.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Okay, So Harmonia, you're telling me it has taken from
eleven thirteen twenty two two February twenty five for them
to determine that Coburger is autistic.
Speaker 6 (17:34):
That's right, Nancy, it's a shocker. We have never heard
this before from the defense team. As again, it's another
motion that's going to delay things. Cober Girl already had
the district of his trial change, the judge change, and
now the defense wants to start litigating at this point
years later, whether Coberger is autistic or not.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
Straight out to psychoaalyst doctor Bethany Marshall joining us from
LA specifically, it stated a quote motion to striking the
death penalty ray autism regarding autism spectrum disorder that has
just been filed by Coburger's defense.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
I'd like you to weigh in, doctor Bethany. Nancy, this
is just a delay tactic.
Speaker 7 (18:19):
And one of the things we know about autistic individuals
is that they notoriously lack insight into what is going
on in the minds of others. They have a hard
time reading social cues. But what we know about serial
killers is that they are keenly interested in what goes
on in the minds of others, stalking them, tracking them,
(18:41):
and trying to instill fear and terror as they're killing them. So,
on the one hand, you have autism, where the person
has little interest in what goes on in the mind
of the other. And then you have the psychopath, the
alleged psychopath who's obsessed with the state of fear that
he's going to induce, you know. And now see, there
were a lot of witnesses to students who were in
(19:04):
Coburger's class. None of them said that he had Askebergers
or autism.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Well, what would be some symptoms or some indicators that
he could be on the spectrum.
Speaker 7 (19:17):
Well, learning disorders that persist throughout the lifespan, narrow range.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Of pH d student. He's a pH d student, he's
a teaching.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
Assistant communicators person.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
Okay, he's a PhD student making all a's. You know,
doctor Bethy, let me just throw something at you. A
few names. These are people that either discuss their autism,
are suspected of autism, that they had autism, or who
exhibit those symptoms.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
Albert Einstein, Anthony Hopkins, Elon Musk, Dan Ackroyd, Susan Boyle,
Darryl Hannah, Tim Burton, Greta Thurnberg, Bill Gates, Sir Isaac Newton,
Emily Dickinson. Jerry Seinfeld has spoken about his experiences with
autism and is an advocate, Bobby Fisher, the great chess champion,
(20:20):
Charles Darwin, Courtney Love, Lionel Messy, Michlangelo, and Mozart.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
Blah blah blah, Andy Warhol. I mean help me.
Speaker 7 (20:28):
Well, you know, Nancy, I will say that one of
the symptoms of automism is an obsession or preoccupation with
one single thing or set of things. Like an autistic
child might pick up a train and just turned it
over and over and over again in his hand and
have no interest in the people in the room or
social in that interaction or engagement. They just want that
(20:50):
one thing. And it could be that he was his
one obsession was these four students.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
He's a PhD student. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
Out to Phillip Debay, veteran defense attorneys won a lot
of cases in court. Debay, he's a PhD student, he's
making all a's. He's a teaching assistant, he teaches classes.
How can this be? How can this be a defense?
And it's my understanding in every jurisdiction in our country,
(21:37):
to launch a mental defense, such as insanity or impairment,
you must first admit you did the deed. You have
to say I did it, but I'm autistic. I did it,
but I'm insane.
Speaker 10 (21:51):
That's correct, But first of all, Idaho abergated the insanity defense.
It doesn't even exist since nineteen eighty two, so you
can't even put that on. Having said that, whenever you're
charged with capital murder, at least in the data Idaho,
you're on two tracks, the guilt phase and the penalty phase.
Court appointed Council right now is working up both phases
(22:12):
of trial. Their endgame, their agenda right now is to
spare his life. It's clear from all their defeats in
court that they realize that Brian Koberger is going down
in the guilt phase. So right now they're trying to
save his life. Back in I think it was two
thousand and two, the US Supreme Court held of usv. Atkins,
(22:32):
that you cannot execute the developmentally or the intellectually disabled. Now,
that does not mean that you have to be living
with profound mental retardation or a profound disorder on the
aptism spectrum. The question is for the court and for
the jury is does he have a true concept of reality?
(22:53):
Because of this type of learning disability, it only goes
to mitigation to spare his life, not to guilt.
Speaker 5 (23:01):
Two.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
Chris mcdonnald joining me, founder of the Cold Case Foundation,
former homicide detective with literally hundreds of death investigations under
his belt. I found him on his YouTube channel, the
Interview Room, and he has researched and investigated the Idaho
slaves himself.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
Chris McDonough.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
Let me just throw this at you, since my experts
seem to ignore it whenever I say it. According to
Harmonia Rodriguez and the court filing, she's right. The defense
is now filing motion to strike death penalty regarding autism
spectrum disorder.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
Chris, He's a PhD student that.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
Teaches criminology and supervises dozens and dozens of students.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
Do you buy it?
Speaker 11 (23:57):
No, I don't buy it. And two words right, thought control.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
It's not thought you.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
Were going to say as go ahead, Well, well, and
I'm about ready to get there one hundred percent.
Speaker 11 (24:11):
Nancy, where you know this guy if he's our guy,
which the DNA evidence is pointing that he potentially could be. Allegedly,
this guy is methodical and that means you know they're
going to look at a state of mind from the
prosecution side, does you know more than anybody. You know
what's his what's his evil intent here? Does he have
(24:33):
an evil mind? And does he know that society everything
that he would do once he committed that crime would
be looked under that looked at through that lens. So
I think he is playing a game here, and I
think that the defense attorneys are listening to what he's
probably saying behind the scenes. It won't surprise me if
(24:56):
he ends up in the courtroom really pushing his defense
and the defense basically just becomes a sideline.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
You mean, pushing the autistic theory and the defense to
the murders becomes a sideline.
Speaker 8 (25:13):
Yes, exactly.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
You didn't get to the BS part.
Speaker 11 (25:16):
Well. I think he's in deep here, and I think
the firing of his attorney recently, remember Ted Bundy did
the same thing, and a superior court judge says, you know,
mister Bundy, you're so smart. You really had an opportunity
of a future and I would have loved to hear
(25:36):
you defend other things in this court of law.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
But you took the wrong path.
Speaker 7 (25:41):
When you lived in a small college town. It occurred
to not know exactly.
Speaker 3 (25:47):
Four students from University of Idaho murdered.
Speaker 6 (25:51):
One of the neighbors down there of the growth called
and said, I want to tell you I'm.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
A neighbor and Kaylee and Maddie are both dead.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
Revelation We now learn an eyewitness says the killer fled
the scene of the Idaho slaves with a vacuum cleaner.
We assume that means a handvac Now welcome to the
crazy house, because I've got one guest claiming that he
stole the handback from the victims. I've got another guest
(26:24):
stay stating that a victim tried to fight off the.
Speaker 1 (26:27):
Killer with a hand that reality check.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
This will not be the first killer that tried to
sanitize a scene.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
Does anybody recall Photus Dulo's photos.
Speaker 13 (26:41):
Dulos, husband of missing Jennifer Dulo's, takes an employee's Toyota
Tacoma borrowed without permission, to a car wash and to
tail shop to try to clean a brown colored stain
from the seats. Dulos tells the employee to replace the
front seats, and he does, but keeps the originals, ultimately
giving them to police. Police allege the stains blood.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
He's not the only one I assume you all remember
the beautiful young teacher out of Memphis, Eliza Fletcher, out
jogging minding her own business. Four thirty am was the
only time she could work out because.
Speaker 1 (27:11):
She worked and took care of children. Remember her killer.
Speaker 4 (27:15):
The man accused of abducting and murdering Eliza Fletcher, is
seen cleaning out his car just hours after the Memphis
teacher disappeared. Video shows Cleota Abston spending more than an
hour in the passenger side of his suv. A witness
says Abstin vigorously clean the interior of his car with
a carpet cleaner. Fletcher's dead body was found close to
(27:36):
where police said Abstin is seen cleaning out his vehicle.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
I mean, it goes on and on and on.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
You've got Scott Peterson that suddenly cleaned the whole apartment,
the whole home after he murdered Lacy and Connor. You've
got Jody Arius who cleaned up and even did laundry.
Speaker 1 (27:54):
Luckily, she left her digital.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
Camera in the washing machine, which revealed her foot by
the dead body. But the cleaning, the obsessive cleaning, the
thought that you can somehow wash away forensics, that doesn't happen.
Speaker 1 (28:09):
Joe Scott, No, it doesn't.
Speaker 9 (28:12):
I've held early on, and you know I've been proven wrong.
I think at this point in time, based on the evidence,
I held that the car was going to be quote
unquote a rolling crime scene, that it would be there'd
be so much transfer evidence in there. Because you know,
having worked many many sharp force injury related homicides over
(28:33):
the course of my career, you've got four victims. There's
no way that this individual could not have been potentially
supersaturated with blood and transferred that evidence into the car.
And right now that hasn't occurred. So yeah, you know,
when you think about it, I think that there is
obviously evidence that this guy is cleaning. However, what's the
(28:57):
choice here? Is he cleaning the crimes seen with a
handheld back or does he clean his car with a
hand held back? I don't know. Did he show up
he's so deranged and put him up?
Speaker 1 (29:09):
Why do I have to choose?
Speaker 2 (29:11):
You've got an eyewitness stating she sees the tall, white
male with bushy eyeberries, wearing a face mask, lean and
he's got a handback. You have, I mean this is
a pattern, Joe Scott. Then You've got his apartment immaculate,
where his shower curtain has been taken out and the
rings are still up there, but the shower curtain's gone.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
What could possibly have been on it? Blood? Maybe think
he think?
Speaker 2 (29:33):
And hiding an extra vacuum canister in the back of
his closet.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
That's all deduction.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
We know that the law enforcement watched him meticulously clean
out his car for hours.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
His sister even said so.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
Then they see him at three am cleaning out the
house getting rid of evidence.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
He can't stop himself.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
Does it make sense to you and I, to you
and me that he took in a handback.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
To try to get rid of evidence.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
Not because we've been to murder scenes we know that's impossible,
But a twenty nine year old pH D sceunit in
criminology who's never been to a real murder scene probably.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
Thinks, hey, I can get rid of evidence.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
He planned everything meticulously, Joe Scott, this is so am Yeah, but.
Speaker 9 (30:22):
He still doesn't wear a belt where he can put
the sheath of the knife on it and hold it.
He leaves that behind. So if he's so ocd, you know,
why in the hell did he leave that critical piece
of evidence behind which, by the way, which by the
way contains allegedly his DNA. He left it behind, Nancy,
(30:44):
So Joscott go in, He's going.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
To clean quiet.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
We are not the engineers of the evidence. We take
it as we find it and we build our case.
How many times, Joe Scott, I'm really actually surprised at you.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
How many times have we said, what an idiot?
Speaker 2 (31:02):
Idiots because they do idiotic things. Well, you're even criminal masterminds.
Speaker 9 (31:10):
Your supposition here is that everything is based upon this
eyewitness statement in the dark, in this hallway where you
can't make out specifics. So I don't know he's carrying
a handheld back. Well, gee whiz, what brand was it?
I don't know?
Speaker 1 (31:27):
Okay, question to you, Joe Scott. You're doing what Philip
Dubay was doing earlier. That is, you're parsing.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
You're cherry picking the parts of her eyewitness testimony that
you like. You're going to take some, Okay, So you
want to throw it all of her testimony?
Speaker 9 (31:41):
Then, no, I want to know where was the knight?
Speaker 1 (31:44):
You only want to keep the parts you like.
Speaker 9 (31:46):
No, it's not that I want to keep. I want
to seek the truth in this and what is available?
Speaker 2 (31:51):
Tell me why, and the witness says, handback, you know what,
let's talk about the shower curtain crime stories with Nancy
Grace Harmonio Rodriguez joining US chief US reporter dailymail dot Com.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
Tell me about the missing shower curtain. That's right.
Speaker 6 (32:17):
We know that Coberger took a lot of measures to
clean everything in his life following this murder. When detectives
reached his Washington home, they found that there was no
shower curtain, of course, suggesting maybe he could have taken
a shower in there and there was evidence in it
to get rid of. There was also no trash at all, Nancy,
and this is something that he was also doing in
(32:39):
his parents' house in Pennsylvania. He was not throwing his
own trash out. We know he was wearing gloves in
his parents' house, So we know Coburger tried to cover
his tracks, which is why, as your guests are mentioning,
there is a juxtaposition because he seemed to be so
careful in some ways, or attempted to be careful, but
then did things like leaving a knife sheet behind and
(33:01):
maybe thinking he could clean up a crime scene with
a handbag, which of course is absolutely impossible, and I
think he should have known that as.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
A PhD student of criminology.
Speaker 6 (33:11):
I mean, you may be able to pick up some hairs,
but he must have expected that this scene was going
to be bloody and that a handbag would not have help.
His home showed that he was taken measures to make
sure there was no evidence there.
Speaker 12 (33:24):
I don't like you he did a white color craft.
This isn't a white color crime.
Speaker 7 (33:30):
This is this.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
Is people who you work your whole life.
Speaker 12 (33:33):
To get him to go to college, and then they
get killed while they're sleep that night. And then this
guy like he just like traded insider trading, but his
own company stocks.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
It's not white collar.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
And as we go to air tonight, wehe Larren Coiburger
has replaced fired a lawyer Listen.
Speaker 14 (33:54):
Brian Coburger is fine tuning the team that will represent
him at trial in August. Jay Logston and Idaho public
defender assisting Ann Taylor will be replaced with a Northern
California attorney who specializes in DNA and previously testified as
a paid consultant for the defense, Biccob Barlow, formerly of
the San Francisco Public Defender's Office has been admitted to
(34:15):
the case pro Hawk Vice Barlow has run a private
law office with a focus on cases that involve forensic
DNA for over ten years and claims to have led
the first successful challenge of str DNA evidence in the US.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
Ryan Heiberger is not the first famous celebrity defendant.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
To get rid of their lawyer. Is a name Michael
Jackson ring a bell.
Speaker 4 (34:39):
Just after Michael Jackson's Santa Barbara indictment on nine felony
accounts in the alleged molestation of a young boy, Jackson
fires his attorneys, Mark Garrigos and Benjamin Braffman, the singer
commenting that he needs the full attention of his representation
while his life is at stake.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
Joining me.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
Philip Debay, veteran trial lawyer out of the LA Jurisdiction,
has handled many a case in court. I remember when
Michael Jackson fired Mark Garrigos and Mark Gegos has tried
a lot of cases, but Jackson did it.
Speaker 10 (35:11):
Yeah, but there's a difference between being privately retained and
court appointed. In the court appointed cases, council can withdraw
if there is a conflict or if they feel they
don't have the skills that are required to do the representation,
so you bring somebody else on who's paid by the court.
It's very very common. In this particular case, Ann Taylor
(35:31):
is lead counsel. She's the captain of the ship, and
she needs to decide what, if any type of assistance
she needs by way of second chair, third chair, fourth chair,
who's going to do the science and who's going to
do the mitigation. And it seems like the people that
they had for the DNA or for the science weren't
well equipped enough to defend him with this mountain of
(35:52):
forensic evidence. And I think the endgame initially was to
try to get all the forensics suppressed. When that failed,
now is bringing onboard people who are really lettered and
schooled in the forensics.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
Philip Dubay, do you think it has anything to do
with the replaced fired lawyer Logsden putting not one but
both feet in his mouth last week in court when
he described our country, America, let me get this right,
as a panopticon, which is essentially a large prison with guards,
(36:31):
a surveillance state where your privacy is going to be
trampled upon by the police.
Speaker 1 (36:38):
He said that, and it made all the headlines.
Speaker 10 (36:40):
Well, at a minimum, it's problematic because everybody's under a
gag order. You should not be talking to the press,
giving any media statements about the case, about the system,
about law enforcement.
Speaker 1 (36:51):
It was in court. It was in court, open court.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
Even a mouse in the corner could hear it. I
don't know what you're talking about. Privacy, No, I understand.
Speaker 10 (37:02):
But the point is, I don't think that's enough to
remove court appointed counsel from the case. You have to
show that counsel just simply cannot perform to the degree
other similarly attorneys perform constitutionally. Anyway.
Speaker 7 (37:20):
A million people can tell me you don't let it consume you,
be patient, don't think about it, just you know.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
But I am me.
Speaker 14 (37:29):
I I can't.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
This is my daughter to serve, best friend.
Speaker 7 (37:35):
I can't stop. Just can you consume me by it?
Speaker 1 (37:41):
In the last hour was a bombshell.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
The defense now claims that they are advancing the theory
that Brian Coberg or the PhD student, the teaching assistant,
and the criminology department at Pullman is autistic. Harmonia Rodriguez again,
tell me about that claim.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
Right, so this is a new claim.
Speaker 6 (38:01):
We had never heard before in the years we have
been covering this case, and it's interesting that it comes
right after the Coburger defense team replaced one lawyer with
another who's more focused on DNA. It also came after
the judge said he was not going to throw out
the DNA and obtained through genetic tracking. Now, Coberger's defense
(38:24):
has asked the prosecution to drop the death penalty, claiming
that Coberger is in the autism spectrum. Again, they submitted
no evidence of this, no test, no historical documentation of
this diagnosis. So we are sure to see the prosecution
now ask for evidence of this alleged autistic diagnosis.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
Doctor Monty Miller and joining me at a Riverside, California
Director forensic DNA Experts, Doctor Miller, again, thank you for
being with us, Doctor Miller. The odds in this case
that the DNA is incorrect, I mean it's hard for
a lay person to believe.
Speaker 1 (39:07):
I didn't believe the first.
Speaker 2 (39:08):
Time I used DNA Joksuribo nucleic acid in court, but
I had to check it and it's correct. The odds
are like one in eight actilion that it could be
anybody else's DNA, but Cobrews, would you agree with that
type of statistic? In DNA analysis the way I would
do them, you end up basically with a number so big,
(39:31):
just like that one that says the DNA came from him.
Speaker 5 (39:35):
I mean, it's to.
Speaker 8 (39:37):
That point where scientifically, logically, statistically, you've ruled out anything else.
It really unless somebody else's DNA matches him, and somebody
else's DNA that matched him was left there and implicated him,
and so the chances of that happening are just zero.
Speaker 1 (39:59):
Just got more.
Speaker 2 (40:00):
You're joining me, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, Scott, Do
you agree with doctor Monte Miller those statistics are real?
Speaker 9 (40:09):
Yeah, I mean one thousand percent. And I have to
tell you, no, he does not have an expectation of
privacy relative to any of this biological evidence that they
have collected. And they're trying to, you know, essentially recap
the evidence and how was collected and how was utilized
in this particular case. And I think the defense realizes
(40:30):
that this is a real up hill battle when you
begin to consider the numeric values involved in this.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
So Phillip debate veteran trial lawyer joining us out of LA.
Bottom line, the DNA is irrefutable one in eight octillion
that this DNA could have been led by anybody other
than Brian Coburger on a ninth sheath under a dead body.
(40:57):
So where can they go now with a mental defect client.
That's what's happening, Philip, Well, first of.
Speaker 10 (41:06):
All, in the guilt phase, I think the only thing
that the touch DNA proves is that somebody with his
DNA on a snap left it at the scene. It
does not, in the fact, prove that he committed the
quadruple Hama side. It just puts his touch DNA on
some item that's in the stream of commerce at the scene.
(41:28):
So the question is going to become for the state,
what else do they have to put him at that house?
Slitting all these students' throats.
Speaker 2 (41:37):
We remember American hero police officer Christopher Reese, Virginia, HPD,
shot and killed in the line of duty, passed away
along with partner Officer Cameron Gervin, survived by loving family,
Sentenced to life without him. American hero Officer Christopher Reese.
Speaker 1 (41:59):
Nancy Grace signing off goodbye friend,
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
A shock Coburger claim that an eyewitness says the killer
fled the murder scene with a hand hel vacuum. And
now after reading court documents, we learn did Coburger get
rid of his shower curtain?
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Wonder why?
Speaker 2 (00:28):
I mean, see Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thank you
for being with us. Just around three am and a
man named.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
Brian Christopher Coburger was taken into custody.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Coburger claims he was driving his car as he often
did to hike and run and or see the moon
and stars.
Speaker 4 (00:45):
Our defens team firmly, and I mean firmly, believes in
mister Coberger's innocense.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Okay, well, she may be firm in her belief, but
a grand jury has handed down and with Trubal charging
him with four murders, the murders of four Beautiful University
Idaho students dead slaughtered in their beds, and tonight we
learned the eyewitness states the killer fled the scene with
(01:18):
a hand that listen.
Speaker 4 (01:21):
Hippler's ruling also revealed new details of what surviving roommate
Dylan Mortenson saw the night of the murders in the
closed door hearing, the defense attempts to argue Mortenson's account
is unreliable, and while the judge agrees Mortensen was likely
drunk during the murders, he points out that her statements
to police were very similar each time, and other evidence
(01:42):
corroborates what she witnessed. Hipler reveals that in Mortenson's second
and third interviews, she mentions the suspect carrying what looked
to be a handheld vacuum.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Oh, according to reports, that is so Coburger with the
hand hell of that?
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Who else would do that? Now?
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Guys, let me get straight out to Hermonia Rodriguez joining
US chief US reporter with Dailymail dot Com and host
off Welcome to magaaland podcast.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
No Politics on crime stories.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Okay, no crime, no crime victim is a political football,
So everybody keep your politics to yourself. Back to the
hand that, Harmonia, What do you know?
Speaker 5 (02:28):
That's right?
Speaker 6 (02:28):
These new court documents are offering new details about the
investigation that led police to Brian Coberger. We know that
there were surviving roommates that were in the house and
one of them said that she saw a boushy eyed man.
We know Coburger's eyebrows have been a topic of debate
after this surviving witness said they saw a white, tall
(02:51):
man with bushy eyebrows.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Now now we.
Speaker 6 (02:54):
Know that she also said in following interviews that he
was carrying Okay, that's bushie.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Wait a minute, Harmonia, look that Okay, hold that is bushi.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Go ahead. Correct.
Speaker 6 (03:06):
That has been a topic of discussion, and that part
of the witnesses testimony has never changed the description of
what the suspect to look like. However, it appears on
in her initial interviews she hadn't mentioned the handheld vacuum.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Now we know that this witness has.
Speaker 6 (03:21):
Said her mind wasn't clear, that she was kind of
in a dream like state. Of course, Coberger's team of
lawyers have gone after this young woman's credibility, saying that
what she is saying cannot be trusted because she admitted.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
To being in a not clear state of mind.
Speaker 6 (03:39):
Now, the judge said that even Ifmonia and put her up, Harmonia,
I asked you about the handheld vack and so far what.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
I've heard is everything wrong. When the eyewitnesses statement, can
you tell me about the vacuum? I'll give do Bay
a chance to slice the poor witness to shreds before
I so were back together again? Thatack vack vacuum harmonia.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
Right, so, as I said.
Speaker 6 (04:09):
The surviving roommate said she saw the suspect bushy eyebrowed
suspect leaving with a hand held vacuum. She also had
said as we already knew that the suspect said something
like I'm here to help before he exited their home
through a sliding door quietly. This witness has said she
(04:30):
then went back to sleep. Wasn't clear on what happened,
but she has repeated in several interviews this detail about
the handheld vacuum.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
Well, obviously it stood out in her mind. She says,
Oh my stars, he had a handback. That's not the
kind of detail you can insert into someone's memory. Okay,
I need a shrink before Dubay jumps on this. Doctor
Bethany Marshall joining us, so, I say, COO analyst joining
us out of la, author of deal Breakers. You can
find her at doctor Bethanymarshall dot com. You can see
(05:00):
her now on Peacock Doctor Bethany. It doesn't end there.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
Everybody on the.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
Panel, I want you to envision what you have in
your closet, what you keep in the deep dark recesses
in the back of your closet.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
Okay, now listen to this.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
The defense also argues that Moscow Pede failed to disclose
that lab testing did not reveal any of the victims
DNA in Coburger's car or apartment, but a search warrant
return did list a vacuum candister having been removed from
a closet in Coburger's Pullman apartment, where investigators also found
a black glove and receipts. Coburger's shower curtains had been removed,
(05:38):
and all trash cans were empty.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
Well, he's certainly the Nate Nick. There's a lot there
to dissect. But can we just talk about the fact
that in his closet, in the back, dark, deep recesses
of his closet, he has a vacuum canister a spare?
Speaker 1 (05:54):
Do you have one of those in your closet? By
all your designers? She used, doctor Bethany, I bet you die,
I do not.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Can we talk about the killer with a handbag? What
does it say, Nancy?
Speaker 7 (06:06):
We use handbags to clean things up, right, So obviously
he was anticipating a messy scene and the fact that
he would need to clean things up, or he was
looking for tokens or fetishes or something he could suck
up before he left, so he would have something to
play with, toy with. But I think it's likely that
it was just an instrument for cleaning after at the
(06:29):
commission of a crime which obviously he got scared off
and he didn't complete.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
Okay, maybe I'm the crazy one on this panel, but
I guess I have to spell it out for Joe
Scott Morgan and doctor Bethany Marshall.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
But I need the help.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
Of doctor Monte Miller joining US Director Forensic DNA Expert
Specialist and forensic Science forensic Scientists for Texas Department Public Safety.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
And it goes on and on.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
You can find doctor Monty Miller at Crime Lab Forensic
DNA Experts dot com.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
Doctor Monte Miller.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
Okay, address on the blackboard, spell it out for me.
Why would a killer bring a handback to a murder scene?
Speaker 5 (07:20):
Yeah, I mean did he bring it or did he
take it from there?
Speaker 8 (07:25):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (07:25):
I mean you would only bring it for you know,
to clean up, to like vacuum stuff off of you
and things like that, so that you wouldn't leave it
in your car, So he might have just brought his
own and then kind of used it to clean himself
up so that he doesn't leave a mess in his car.
They didn't find anything in his car, and maybe because
he cleaned up.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Obviously he took the handback to get rid of evidence.
And no, he did not steal their vacuum cleaner. He
took the vacuum cleaner with him. The only question is
why I'm going to give Joe Scott Morgan another swing
at the ball be succinct.
Speaker 9 (08:08):
So you're telling me that he thought so far ahead
that he's going to bring a handheld back with him
in addition to a knife, and he's going to take
time to utilize this vacuum cleaner in order to clean
up what's he going to clean up? All of the
wet blood in there? Because it's not going to work.
(08:30):
This guy's supposed to be some kind of forensic genius.
Remember they've talked about this forever and ever. This is
not going to be appropriate for the task at hand.
I can't I would.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
He put him up. Scott Scott, my friend and colleague.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
He brings a handback to the same that's what prosecutors
are going to argue to clean up Evans?
Speaker 1 (08:50):
Was that feasible? Did it make sense?
Speaker 5 (08:52):
No?
Speaker 1 (08:52):
But think think think, you think, think, use that noodle.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
Joe Scott, what does he do for a little He
teaches forensic science, criminology.
Speaker 9 (09:04):
And his inflating what he does with forensic science. I've
gone over this over and over and over again. He
is studying criminal You're just.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
Saying that because you're a forensic you don't like to
with you. He's a PhD student criminologist. He's a team
a teaching assistant.
Speaker 9 (09:22):
In criminology, not forensic science. Okay, just because you.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
I don't know, Okay, he certainly knows, Joe Scott.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
You know what, let's just everybody stipulate he's know Joe
Scott Morgan. Now that's with his limited understanding as a
student of criminology. He takes a handback to the murder scene,
thinking somehow he's going to get rid of evidence.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
Obviously that's not feasible. But in his.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
Mind, having only got book learning about crime, I mean,
why else would he bring a handback to the scene.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
Again, be succinct.
Speaker 9 (09:59):
He not going to bring a handheld back to the scene.
I don't believe it. I'm just not buying this is
what he brought to this case.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
So are you saying he still Are you saying he
stole it? Did he steal a handback? I guess house
and steals a handbag?
Speaker 9 (10:14):
We have to go back?
Speaker 1 (10:15):
Well, then are you saying the witness is lying?
Speaker 9 (10:17):
No, I'm saying that she's not remembering correctly, is what
I'm saying. You know, bushy eyebrow's face covered, it's dark.
You know she's saying that he also had a hand
handhaild vack.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
Okay, so you are accepting part of her description but
not the other part because you, a professor forensics, doesn't
think it's feasible. You know what, Let me just jog
everyone's recollection.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
Listen.
Speaker 3 (10:44):
The police source says Brian Coberger cleaned his car meticulously,
both inside and out, in the days leading up to
his arrests. The source, speaking anonymously, says, during the four
days of surveillance at the Coburger family's Pennsylvania home, the
suspect was detailing his white Honda a Lantra quote not
missing an inch. Some of the trash taken from the
(11:06):
car was deposited in a neighbor's trash bin at four
a m. Agents recovered the garbage and some items were
sent to the Idaho State Lab for testing. Detectives also
seized a car vacuum reportedly used to clean out vehicle.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
Okay, doctor Bethany Marshall, that's what we call a pattern
m modus operadi method of operation. He's cleaning up at
three and four am, wearing underwear, shorts and plastic gloves
at his parents' house. He's putting I guess, evidence into
(11:46):
separate plastic bags, putting them in the Dixie dumpster and
putting them in the neighbors trash wearing plastic gloves.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
When they go to his home.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
His apartment in Woman, ten minutes away from the murder scene.
His apartment is meticulous, no trash in the trash cans,
and he has destroyed gotten rid of his shower curtain.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
Think think, think think.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
Of course, he took a hand back to the murder
scene and his limited understanding of what a murder scene
really is. You know, he's seen pictures and read books.
He thinks he can remove forensic evidence.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
It fits perfectly with what we know of him.
Speaker 7 (12:29):
Okay, So, Nancy, I think he's obsessive, compulsive, and we
see this in this meticulous planning to commit this crime.
He probably researched it. There's probably evidence in his computers.
He probably thought about it day and night, probably prepared
the car, prepared the handbag to take there, and he
probably meticulously studied the house. So criminals who want to
(12:54):
commit to homicide, not only are they compulsive, meaning they
just they can't discharge a new vitralized anxiety without committing
an act, but they also become so obsessed with every
single detail.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
Joining me.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
Now we've been holding him at Bay renowned defense attorney
joining us out.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
On la Philip Dubay, Okay, have at it?
Speaker 5 (13:18):
Have it?
Speaker 10 (13:19):
What I mean, Listen, a lot of unsophisticated criminals think
that a dustbuster is going to pick up all shedding,
slough off in trace evidence. It's ridiculous. It's not going
to happen. You're going to leave behind minuscule.
Speaker 5 (13:32):
Pieces of.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
Hair follicles, skin.
Speaker 10 (13:37):
Follicles, You're going to leave behind dust, your own DNA,
your own touch DNA. And to think that a dustbuster
is going to clean up the scene is actually lappable.
And frankly, this could support the argument that maybe he
is a little on the spectrum because it's kind.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
Okay, So to me that argument, you have to admit
he did the crime. If you're claiming some sort of
midtal defense, you have the only way to do that
under our American jurisprudence is to say I did it,
but I was insane. Okay, Now, under the spectrum does
not rise to insanity. We all know that, let's not
most lead anyone regarding the definition of insanity in our country.
(14:15):
So of course it's a given to everybody on this
panel and probably all of our viewers that a.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
Handback is not going to get rid of evidence.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
The point is a person obsessed with crime, a person
that only knows about crime through boot learning and a classroom,
has never been to an actual murder scene, has no
idea what that encompasses. A person that is anal compulsive, fastidious,
that is known to vacuum excessively, even keeping an extra
(14:46):
vacuum canister in the deep dark recesses of his closet
would bring a handback to a murder scene. This is
him fitting him to a t. I don't understand the
issue you got having. Chris McDonough you're the homicide investigator.
Is this making any sense? Or am I just screaming
(15:06):
out the window on Third Avenue here?
Speaker 11 (15:09):
Well, there's a there's another possibility. I mean, remember, whatever
comes into that scene, there's a potential that it doesn't leave,
i e.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
Cross contamination.
Speaker 11 (15:19):
And so I'm with Doc Morgan on this one, to
be honest with you, because the other possibility is we
don't know if one of the victims picked up that
handback and use it as a weapon of defense whilst
they were being attacked.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
Okay, you've all gone insane.
Speaker 12 (15:38):
The person who did his crime looked at one of
the victims instead.
Speaker 8 (15:41):
I'm here to help me.
Speaker 12 (15:43):
If that's not malice. That's the most type of people
that you could ever hear.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
It shouldn't be rewarded.
Speaker 7 (15:49):
With the suit and a first chirut every time of
what he can do.
Speaker 12 (15:53):
That's why that's wow.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Straight out to an investigative reporter.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
The chief US reporter with Dailymail dot Com, host of
Welcome to Magaland podcast, Harmonia Rodriguez Harmonia the Latest, it's
a bottshell. The defense is arguing coburger surfers autism.
Speaker 6 (16:15):
Yeah, it's truly shocking. They file this motion on Monday.
It's worth noting that this defense team has filed many
different motions and defenses that have delayed this case for
years now. The latest they are asking that prosecutors do
not seek the death penalty because Coburger they say it's
(16:35):
on the autism spectrum. Again, this is the first time
we hear this. We have never heard before that Coburger
is autistic. Now this is going to be another court fight.
While I'm sure the prosecution asks for any evidence of
this autism as again, it has never been introduced to
court before. In their motion, the defense has not filed
(16:57):
any evidence, any testing to support disclaim of autism, but
they want the death penalty punishment dropped before the trials.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
Harmonia Rodriguez, correct me if I'm wrong, But didn't the
murders occur just before Thanksgiving break at University Idaho specifically
November thirteen, twenty twenty two.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
Is that correct? That's a yes. No, that's that's all right.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Okay, So Harmonia, you're telling me it has taken from
eleven thirteen twenty two two February twenty five for them
to determine that Coburger is autistic.
Speaker 6 (17:34):
That's right, Nancy, it's a shocker. We have never heard
this before from the defense team. As again, it's another
motion that's going to delay things. Cober Girl already had
the district of his trial change, the judge change, and
now the defense wants to start litigating at this point
years later, whether Coberger is autistic or not.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
Straight out to psychoaalyst doctor Bethany Marshall joining us from
LA specifically, it stated a quote motion to striking the
death penalty ray autism regarding autism spectrum disorder that has
just been filed by Coburger's defense.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
I'd like you to weigh in, doctor Bethany. Nancy, this
is just a delay tactic.
Speaker 7 (18:19):
And one of the things we know about autistic individuals
is that they notoriously lack insight into what is going
on in the minds of others. They have a hard
time reading social cues. But what we know about serial
killers is that they are keenly interested in what goes
on in the minds of others, stalking them, tracking them,
(18:41):
and trying to instill fear and terror as they're killing them. So,
on the one hand, you have autism, where the person
has little interest in what goes on in the mind
of the other. And then you have the psychopath, the
alleged psychopath who's obsessed with the state of fear that
he's going to induce, you know. And now see, there
were a lot of witnesses to students who were in
(19:04):
Coburger's class. None of them said that he had Askebergers
or autism.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Well, what would be some symptoms or some indicators that
he could be on the spectrum.
Speaker 7 (19:17):
Well, learning disorders that persist throughout the lifespan, narrow range.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Of pH d student. He's a pH d student, he's
a teaching.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
Assistant communicators person.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
Okay, he's a PhD student making all a's. You know,
doctor Bethy, let me just throw something at you. A
few names. These are people that either discuss their autism,
are suspected of autism, that they had autism, or who
exhibit those symptoms.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
Albert Einstein, Anthony Hopkins, Elon Musk, Dan Ackroyd, Susan Boyle,
Darryl Hannah, Tim Burton, Greta Thurnberg, Bill Gates, Sir Isaac Newton,
Emily Dickinson. Jerry Seinfeld has spoken about his experiences with
autism and is an advocate, Bobby Fisher, the great chess champion,
(20:20):
Charles Darwin, Courtney Love, Lionel Messy, Michlangelo, and Mozart.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
Blah blah blah, Andy Warhol. I mean help me.
Speaker 7 (20:28):
Well, you know, Nancy, I will say that one of
the symptoms of automism is an obsession or preoccupation with
one single thing or set of things. Like an autistic
child might pick up a train and just turned it
over and over and over again in his hand and
have no interest in the people in the room or
social in that interaction or engagement. They just want that
(20:50):
one thing. And it could be that he was his
one obsession was these four students.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
He's a PhD student. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
Out to Phillip Debay, veteran defense attorneys won a lot
of cases in court. Debay, he's a PhD student, he's
making all a's. He's a teaching assistant, he teaches classes.
How can this be? How can this be a defense?
And it's my understanding in every jurisdiction in our country,
(21:37):
to launch a mental defense, such as insanity or impairment,
you must first admit you did the deed. You have
to say I did it, but I'm autistic. I did it,
but I'm insane.
Speaker 10 (21:51):
That's correct, But first of all, Idaho abergated the insanity defense.
It doesn't even exist since nineteen eighty two, so you
can't even put that on. Having said that, whenever you're
charged with capital murder, at least in the data Idaho,
you're on two tracks, the guilt phase and the penalty phase.
Court appointed Council right now is working up both phases
(22:12):
of trial. Their endgame, their agenda right now is to
spare his life. It's clear from all their defeats in
court that they realize that Brian Koberger is going down
in the guilt phase. So right now they're trying to
save his life. Back in I think it was two
thousand and two, the US Supreme Court held of usv. Atkins,
(22:32):
that you cannot execute the developmentally or the intellectually disabled. Now,
that does not mean that you have to be living
with profound mental retardation or a profound disorder on the
aptism spectrum. The question is for the court and for
the jury is does he have a true concept of reality?
(22:53):
Because of this type of learning disability, it only goes
to mitigation to spare his life, not to guilt.
Speaker 5 (23:01):
Two.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
Chris mcdonnald joining me, founder of the Cold Case Foundation,
former homicide detective with literally hundreds of death investigations under
his belt. I found him on his YouTube channel, the
Interview Room, and he has researched and investigated the Idaho
slaves himself.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
Chris McDonough.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
Let me just throw this at you, since my experts
seem to ignore it whenever I say it. According to
Harmonia Rodriguez and the court filing, she's right. The defense
is now filing motion to strike death penalty regarding autism
spectrum disorder.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
Chris, He's a PhD student that.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
Teaches criminology and supervises dozens and dozens of students.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
Do you buy it?
Speaker 11 (23:57):
No, I don't buy it. And two words right, thought control.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
It's not thought you.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
Were going to say as go ahead, Well, well, and
I'm about ready to get there one hundred percent.
Speaker 11 (24:11):
Nancy, where you know this guy if he's our guy,
which the DNA evidence is pointing that he potentially could be. Allegedly,
this guy is methodical and that means you know they're
going to look at a state of mind from the
prosecution side, does you know more than anybody. You know
what's his what's his evil intent here? Does he have
(24:33):
an evil mind? And does he know that society everything
that he would do once he committed that crime would
be looked under that looked at through that lens. So
I think he is playing a game here, and I
think that the defense attorneys are listening to what he's
probably saying behind the scenes. It won't surprise me if
(24:56):
he ends up in the courtroom really pushing his defense
and the defense basically just becomes a sideline.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
You mean, pushing the autistic theory and the defense to
the murders becomes a sideline.
Speaker 8 (25:13):
Yes, exactly.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
You didn't get to the BS part.
Speaker 11 (25:16):
Well. I think he's in deep here, and I think
the firing of his attorney recently, remember Ted Bundy did
the same thing, and a superior court judge says, you know,
mister Bundy, you're so smart. You really had an opportunity
of a future and I would have loved to hear
(25:36):
you defend other things in this court of law.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
But you took the wrong path.
Speaker 7 (25:41):
When you lived in a small college town. It occurred
to not know exactly.
Speaker 3 (25:47):
Four students from University of Idaho murdered.
Speaker 6 (25:51):
One of the neighbors down there of the growth called
and said, I want to tell you I'm.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
A neighbor and Kaylee and Maddie are both dead.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
Revelation We now learn an eyewitness says the killer fled
the scene of the Idaho slaves with a vacuum cleaner.
We assume that means a handvac Now welcome to the
crazy house, because I've got one guest claiming that he
stole the handback from the victims. I've got another guest
(26:24):
stay stating that a victim tried to fight off the.
Speaker 1 (26:27):
Killer with a hand that reality check.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
This will not be the first killer that tried to
sanitize a scene.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
Does anybody recall Photus Dulo's photos.
Speaker 13 (26:41):
Dulos, husband of missing Jennifer Dulo's, takes an employee's Toyota
Tacoma borrowed without permission, to a car wash and to
tail shop to try to clean a brown colored stain
from the seats. Dulos tells the employee to replace the
front seats, and he does, but keeps the originals, ultimately
giving them to police. Police allege the stains blood.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
He's not the only one I assume you all remember
the beautiful young teacher out of Memphis, Eliza Fletcher, out
jogging minding her own business. Four thirty am was the
only time she could work out because.
Speaker 1 (27:11):
She worked and took care of children. Remember her killer.
Speaker 4 (27:15):
The man accused of abducting and murdering Eliza Fletcher, is
seen cleaning out his car just hours after the Memphis
teacher disappeared. Video shows Cleota Abston spending more than an
hour in the passenger side of his suv. A witness
says Abstin vigorously clean the interior of his car with
a carpet cleaner. Fletcher's dead body was found close to
(27:36):
where police said Abstin is seen cleaning out his vehicle.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
I mean, it goes on and on and on.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
You've got Scott Peterson that suddenly cleaned the whole apartment,
the whole home after he murdered Lacy and Connor. You've
got Jody Arius who cleaned up and even did laundry.
Speaker 1 (27:54):
Luckily, she left her digital.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
Camera in the washing machine, which revealed her foot by
the dead body. But the cleaning, the obsessive cleaning, the
thought that you can somehow wash away forensics, that doesn't happen.
Speaker 1 (28:09):
Joe Scott, No, it doesn't.
Speaker 9 (28:12):
I've held early on, and you know I've been proven wrong.
I think at this point in time, based on the evidence,
I held that the car was going to be quote
unquote a rolling crime scene, that it would be there'd
be so much transfer evidence in there. Because you know,
having worked many many sharp force injury related homicides over
(28:33):
the course of my career, you've got four victims. There's
no way that this individual could not have been potentially
supersaturated with blood and transferred that evidence into the car.
And right now that hasn't occurred. So yeah, you know,
when you think about it, I think that there is
obviously evidence that this guy is cleaning. However, what's the
(28:57):
choice here? Is he cleaning the crimes seen with a
handheld back or does he clean his car with a
hand held back? I don't know. Did he show up
he's so deranged and put him up?
Speaker 1 (29:09):
Why do I have to choose?
Speaker 2 (29:11):
You've got an eyewitness stating she sees the tall, white
male with bushy eyeberries, wearing a face mask, lean and
he's got a handback. You have, I mean this is
a pattern, Joe Scott. Then You've got his apartment immaculate,
where his shower curtain has been taken out and the
rings are still up there, but the shower curtain's gone.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
What could possibly have been on it? Blood? Maybe think
he think?
Speaker 2 (29:33):
And hiding an extra vacuum canister in the back of
his closet.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
That's all deduction.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
We know that the law enforcement watched him meticulously clean
out his car for hours.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
His sister even said so.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
Then they see him at three am cleaning out the
house getting rid of evidence.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
He can't stop himself.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
Does it make sense to you and I, to you
and me that he took in a handback.
Speaker 1 (30:03):
To try to get rid of evidence.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
Not because we've been to murder scenes we know that's impossible,
But a twenty nine year old pH D sceunit in
criminology who's never been to a real murder scene probably.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
Thinks, hey, I can get rid of evidence.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
He planned everything meticulously, Joe Scott, this is so am Yeah, but.
Speaker 9 (30:22):
He still doesn't wear a belt where he can put
the sheath of the knife on it and hold it.
He leaves that behind. So if he's so ocd, you know,
why in the hell did he leave that critical piece
of evidence behind which, by the way, which by the
way contains allegedly his DNA. He left it behind, Nancy,
(30:44):
So Joscott go in, He's going.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
To clean quiet.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
We are not the engineers of the evidence. We take
it as we find it and we build our case.
How many times, Joe Scott, I'm really actually surprised at you.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
How many times have we said, what an idiot?
Speaker 2 (31:02):
Idiots because they do idiotic things. Well, you're even criminal masterminds.
Speaker 9 (31:10):
Your supposition here is that everything is based upon this
eyewitness statement in the dark, in this hallway where you
can't make out specifics. So I don't know he's carrying
a handheld back. Well, gee whiz, what brand was it?
I don't know?
Speaker 1 (31:27):
Okay, question to you, Joe Scott. You're doing what Philip
Dubay was doing earlier. That is, you're parsing.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
You're cherry picking the parts of her eyewitness testimony that
you like. You're going to take some, Okay, So you
want to throw it all of her testimony?
Speaker 9 (31:41):
Then, no, I want to know where was the knight?
Speaker 1 (31:44):
You only want to keep the parts you like.
Speaker 9 (31:46):
No, it's not that I want to keep. I want
to seek the truth in this and what is available?
Speaker 2 (31:51):
Tell me why, and the witness says, handback, you know what,
let's talk about the shower curtain crime stories with Nancy
Grace Harmonio Rodriguez joining US chief US reporter dailymail dot Com.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
Tell me about the missing shower curtain. That's right.
Speaker 6 (32:17):
We know that Coberger took a lot of measures to
clean everything in his life following this murder. When detectives
reached his Washington home, they found that there was no
shower curtain, of course, suggesting maybe he could have taken
a shower in there and there was evidence in it
to get rid of. There was also no trash at all, Nancy,
and this is something that he was also doing in
(32:39):
his parents' house in Pennsylvania. He was not throwing his
own trash out. We know he was wearing gloves in
his parents' house, So we know Coburger tried to cover
his tracks, which is why, as your guests are mentioning,
there is a juxtaposition because he seemed to be so
careful in some ways, or attempted to be careful, but
then did things like leaving a knife sheet behind and
(33:01):
maybe thinking he could clean up a crime scene with
a handbag, which of course is absolutely impossible, and I
think he should have known that as.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
A PhD student of criminology.
Speaker 6 (33:11):
I mean, you may be able to pick up some hairs,
but he must have expected that this scene was going
to be bloody and that a handbag would not have help.
His home showed that he was taken measures to make
sure there was no evidence there.
Speaker 12 (33:24):
I don't like you he did a white color craft.
This isn't a white color crime.
Speaker 7 (33:30):
This is this.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
Is people who you work your whole life.
Speaker 12 (33:33):
To get him to go to college, and then they
get killed while they're sleep that night. And then this
guy like he just like traded insider trading, but his
own company stocks.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
It's not white collar.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
And as we go to air tonight, wehe Larren Coiburger
has replaced fired a lawyer Listen.
Speaker 14 (33:54):
Brian Coburger is fine tuning the team that will represent
him at trial in August. Jay Logston and Idaho public
defender assisting Ann Taylor will be replaced with a Northern
California attorney who specializes in DNA and previously testified as
a paid consultant for the defense, Biccob Barlow, formerly of
the San Francisco Public Defender's Office has been admitted to
(34:15):
the case pro Hawk Vice Barlow has run a private
law office with a focus on cases that involve forensic
DNA for over ten years and claims to have led
the first successful challenge of str DNA evidence in the US.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
Ryan Heiberger is not the first famous celebrity defendant.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
To get rid of their lawyer. Is a name Michael
Jackson ring a bell.
Speaker 4 (34:39):
Just after Michael Jackson's Santa Barbara indictment on nine felony
accounts in the alleged molestation of a young boy, Jackson
fires his attorneys, Mark Garrigos and Benjamin Braffman, the singer
commenting that he needs the full attention of his representation
while his life is at stake.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
Joining me.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
Philip Debay, veteran trial lawyer out of the LA Jurisdiction,
has handled many a case in court. I remember when
Michael Jackson fired Mark Garrigos and Mark Gegos has tried
a lot of cases, but Jackson did it.
Speaker 10 (35:11):
Yeah, but there's a difference between being privately retained and
court appointed. In the court appointed cases, council can withdraw
if there is a conflict or if they feel they
don't have the skills that are required to do the representation,
so you bring somebody else on who's paid by the court.
It's very very common. In this particular case, Ann Taylor
(35:31):
is lead counsel. She's the captain of the ship, and
she needs to decide what, if any type of assistance
she needs by way of second chair, third chair, fourth chair,
who's going to do the science and who's going to
do the mitigation. And it seems like the people that
they had for the DNA or for the science weren't
well equipped enough to defend him with this mountain of
(35:52):
forensic evidence. And I think the endgame initially was to
try to get all the forensics suppressed. When that failed,
now is bringing onboard people who are really lettered and
schooled in the forensics.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
Philip Dubay, do you think it has anything to do
with the replaced fired lawyer Logsden putting not one but
both feet in his mouth last week in court when
he described our country, America, let me get this right,
as a panopticon, which is essentially a large prison with guards,
(36:31):
a surveillance state where your privacy is going to be
trampled upon by the police.
Speaker 1 (36:38):
He said that, and it made all the headlines.
Speaker 10 (36:40):
Well, at a minimum, it's problematic because everybody's under a
gag order. You should not be talking to the press,
giving any media statements about the case, about the system,
about law enforcement.
Speaker 1 (36:51):
It was in court. It was in court, open court.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
Even a mouse in the corner could hear it. I
don't know what you're talking about. Privacy, No, I understand.
Speaker 10 (37:02):
But the point is, I don't think that's enough to
remove court appointed counsel from the case. You have to
show that counsel just simply cannot perform to the degree
other similarly attorneys perform constitutionally. Anyway.
Speaker 7 (37:20):
A million people can tell me you don't let it consume you,
be patient, don't think about it, just you know.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
But I am me.
Speaker 14 (37:29):
I I can't.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
This is my daughter to serve, best friend.
Speaker 7 (37:35):
I can't stop. Just can you consume me by it?
Speaker 1 (37:41):
In the last hour was a bombshell.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
The defense now claims that they are advancing the theory
that Brian Coberg or the PhD student, the teaching assistant,
and the criminology department at Pullman is autistic. Harmonia Rodriguez again,
tell me about that claim.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
Right, so this is a new claim.
Speaker 6 (38:01):
We had never heard before in the years we have
been covering this case, and it's interesting that it comes
right after the Coburger defense team replaced one lawyer with
another who's more focused on DNA. It also came after
the judge said he was not going to throw out
the DNA and obtained through genetic tracking. Now, Coberger's defense
(38:24):
has asked the prosecution to drop the death penalty, claiming
that Coberger is in the autism spectrum. Again, they submitted
no evidence of this, no test, no historical documentation of
this diagnosis. So we are sure to see the prosecution
now ask for evidence of this alleged autistic diagnosis.
Speaker 2 (38:47):
Doctor Monty Miller and joining me at a Riverside, California
Director forensic DNA Experts, Doctor Miller, again, thank you for
being with us, Doctor Miller. The odds in this case
that the DNA is incorrect, I mean it's hard for
a lay person to believe.
Speaker 1 (39:07):
I didn't believe the first.
Speaker 2 (39:08):
Time I used DNA Joksuribo nucleic acid in court, but
I had to check it and it's correct. The odds
are like one in eight actilion that it could be
anybody else's DNA, but Cobrews, would you agree with that
type of statistic? In DNA analysis the way I would
do them, you end up basically with a number so big,
(39:31):
just like that one that says the DNA came from him.
Speaker 5 (39:35):
I mean, it's to.
Speaker 8 (39:37):
That point where scientifically, logically, statistically, you've ruled out anything else.
It really unless somebody else's DNA matches him, and somebody
else's DNA that matched him was left there and implicated him,
and so the chances of that happening are just zero.
Speaker 1 (39:59):
Just got more.
Speaker 2 (40:00):
You're joining me, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, Scott, Do
you agree with doctor Monte Miller those statistics are real?
Speaker 9 (40:09):
Yeah, I mean one thousand percent. And I have to
tell you, no, he does not have an expectation of
privacy relative to any of this biological evidence that they
have collected. And they're trying to, you know, essentially recap
the evidence and how was collected and how was utilized
in this particular case. And I think the defense realizes
(40:30):
that this is a real up hill battle when you
begin to consider the numeric values involved in this.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
So Phillip debate veteran trial lawyer joining us out of LA.
Bottom line, the DNA is irrefutable one in eight octillion
that this DNA could have been led by anybody other
than Brian Coburger on a ninth sheath under a dead body.
(40:57):
So where can they go now with a mental defect client.
That's what's happening, Philip, Well, first of.
Speaker 10 (41:06):
All, in the guilt phase, I think the only thing
that the touch DNA proves is that somebody with his
DNA on a snap left it at the scene. It
does not, in the fact, prove that he committed the
quadruple Hama side. It just puts his touch DNA on
some item that's in the stream of commerce at the scene.
(41:28):
So the question is going to become for the state,
what else do they have to put him at that house?
Slitting all these students' throats.
Speaker 2 (41:37):
We remember American hero police officer Christopher Reese, Virginia, HPD,
shot and killed in the line of duty, passed away
along with partner Officer Cameron Gervin, survived by loving family,
Sentenced to life without him. American hero Officer Christopher Reese.
Speaker 1 (41:59):
Nancy Grace signing off goodbye friend,
Host
Nancy Grace
Popular Podcasts
Cold Case Files: Miami
Joyce Sapp, 76; Bryan Herrera, 16; and Laurance Webb, 32—three Miami residents whose lives were stolen in brutal, unsolved homicides. Cold Case Files: Miami follows award‑winning radio host and City of Miami Police reserve officer Enrique Santos as he partners with the department’s Cold Case Homicide Unit, determined family members, and the advocates who spend their lives fighting for justice for the victims who can no longer fight for themselves.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.