September 5, 2017 • 46 mins
As Natalee Hollway's family waits for tests to confirm if bones found buried in Aruba are her remains, the man who led them to the grave hints there is a 2nd location where other body parts are hidden. Gabriel Madrigal opened up to Nancy Grace in this episode with details not included in the Oxygen series "The Disappearance of Natalee Holloway." He stopped short of disclosing secrets beyond a promise of "twists and turns" in the remaining episodes of the series, but he did suggest he has knowledge of a 2nd burial location. Cold Case Research Institute director Sheryl McCollum, investigative reporter Art Harris and psychologist Pat Saunders also joined Nancy on this episode.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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(01:10):
Channel one thirty two, two thousand five. On the small
island of a rubat. Natalie Holloway was with friends at
a local bar where she was last seen getting a
ride with Uron Vandersloughte. Natalie's disappearance remains a mystery. Her
dad says that he in a private eye found human
remains in a rubo. We took those remains and had
those remains tested and then just returned last week. That's
(01:30):
her human remains. Will they be able to be some
kind of test, Dave, that will be answer once and
for all whether this is Natalie. We're in the process
of doing a d n A test. Dave Holloway says
that a friend of a man who was once suspected
in her disappearance tipped them off. I know that there's
a possibility this could be someone else, and I'm just
trying to wait and see. A beautiful young girl goes
(01:53):
on her high school senior trip. Her parents take her
to say goodbye. It's heavily chaperon. All is well until
it's time for her to come home, and she never
shows up at the plane. The chaperones don't know what happened,
her friends don't know what happened, and the parents are
(02:14):
devastated to this day, they still don't know what happened
to Natalie Holloway. And with me today in addition to
an all star lineup, is the man at the center
of the search for Natalie Holloway, some calling him the hero, Gabriel.
(02:35):
He was managed to help crack this case wide open.
He is with us now, I mean, I see Grace,
this is crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.
First of all, before I go to Gabriel, I'm gonna
start with Art Harris, Emmy Award winning reporter Art. What
is the latest? I'm now understanding that someone in the
(02:57):
case claims Natalie's bones have been mixed with a dog's
bones and cremated for two hundred dollars. Have you heard that?
One report Nancy has his friend taking the remains to
a local crematory and paying the officials there two hundred
dollars to burn the bones with the remains of a dog. Now,
(03:19):
how would they how would that happen? Well, he had cash,
he says, and they put it through the uh, the oven,
and came back with a mixture of ashes, supposedly from
Natalie and dog. Why didn't they stop him? The guy said,
this is you know John who's supposedly RAN's lover and friend. Well,
I don't I love that dog. I don't want anyone
(03:39):
to see him go in except me. So he gets
the ashes and then the story is he's supposed to
bury them for Uran and what happens from there? I
guess Gabriel can tell us more. Well, here's the gist
of it. A missing Alabama girl, Natalie Holloway, skeletal remains,
so believe, were mixed with those of a dead dog
(04:03):
and an effort to disguise that it was Natalie, then
taken to a crematory where a man paid two hundred
bucks to cremate to burn them so the ashes could
be scattered. Is it true? How did we get to
this point? Natalie's father has traveled all over the world,
(04:24):
including as far as Nicaragua, to help find his daughter,
and joining me right now the man at the center
of the search for Natalie many heiling him as a hero. Gabriel.
Now Gabriel. Back on August thirty, we had an episode
on Natalie Holloway, and in that episode I mistakenly idead
a person named Gabriel as the guy I had previously interviewed,
(04:48):
and I did the interview when you're in vander Salute,
the judge's son had been arrested in charge in the
murder of a second girl, Stephanie Tausiana Flores. Now I
made the mistake about thinking Gabriel was that personal interview before,
but he is not that person, and I really apologize.
Nobody's too big to say they were wrong. I apologize
(05:10):
for that confusion. And with me here today is the
real Gabriel, Not the Gabriel I confused, but the real
Gabriel who has really led Natalie's father to this point.
And Gabriel, I mean, I just want to say that
(05:32):
if you had not done this, we wouldn't have even
gotten this far. And whether it turns out to be
her remains or not, or some other woman's remains, what's
so stunning to me is that a Reuben. Authorities kept
saying it's not a person, it's not a person, it's
it's an animal. Well, our expert here in the US
(05:52):
says it is a young woman of Eastern European descent.
So it makes me wonder, Gabriel, what else the Auruban
of alorities are hiding. But that's put in the cart
before the horse. Start at the beginning, Gabriel, please tell
me your story. I met John Goodwook in two thousand thirteen,
and I met him through a friend I'm going to
(06:13):
head and gave him the chance. And one day he
was drunk. He goes, you know who Natalie and all
the ways. I go, yeah, I recall poor girl. He goes, oh,
I know more than anybody knows in the entire life.
I go, what do you mean? He goes, I was there.
Wait what he goes, I'm at Manaslud in two thousands tens.
That day he tells me, you know what, I think
that gruesome. So he starts showing me pictures and all
(06:37):
this and that of him in Vanaslud. And then that
day something in me said I can look the other way,
or I go and try to solve this. So something
came in me and and said I'm gonna do it.
Might not be easy, but I'm gonna do it. So
I befriend John and acted like his best friend. I mean,
(06:57):
I took him to every single placeful because I played poker.
I took him here, I took me there. I spent
thousands of dollars to you know, make him my best
friends so he could open up to me. So by
a two thousand fifth team, he went ahead and opened up.
I mean he completely opened up. He goes, you're my
best friend. And in two thousand fifteen, I tried to
(07:18):
call Beth Holloway. I mean I tried for three or
four months. I tried everything. I never got an answer.
So then I went ahead and called Dave Holloway and
I got an answer and I said Hi Dave, and
he goes yes. I said, look, I know a lot
of people have cry roll foot, but I haven't been
videos that you should be. You should look at. I'm
not asking for money, I just want you to look
I have. I'm a father to a daughter, so I know, uh,
(07:41):
if that happened to me, well you know you're pain.
So he comes to j Ward and he did. Ward
calls me. He comes to Venice, Florida and meet me,
and t J was blown away. He goes, oh my god, wow,
I mean DJ didn't know nothing. I go, t J,
why did you miss this? And back in two thousand
tens he made jokes the job bone is connected to
(08:01):
the room. I'm like, come on, you missed a lot
of information here. So he said, well, you know, I've
been working on this case and doesn't this and that?
So I didn't say nothing. Well, let me ask a question, Gabriel,
when you say they were blown away, what is it
that you knew that blew them away? That Young knew
exactly where he was carried? Young knew exactly how she
(08:25):
actually died. Well, did he tell you how she actually died?
He told me all this and confessions on video. I
mean I reported without well what did he say what happened?
It's part of the documentary and I can't say it. Okay,
I understand, Okay, go ahead. Then he said where it
comes to me and says Dave Holloway has put a
lot of money to this, and we got a chance
(08:45):
to do a documentary. Would you like to join them?
And I said sure, you know, why not? You know,
I help out. We we did a boat trip and uh,
I guess the laws didn't qualify there. So t J
said that he was gonna pay me, which he never
paid me for for my um on my expenses there.
So I said, it's okay, you know, I don't care.
(09:06):
So then we went to New Orleans and we did
desting operation and TJ at the time was pushing because
he wanted information right away, and I said, listen, he's
a name yac. You cannot push this guy. He will
close up, he will not say a word. You have
to just be calm and he will give you what
(09:26):
you want. But you have to relax and be calm.
So we didn't really get nowhere we I mean, he
told us that there that it wasn't at the fort anymore.
It was somewhere else at his aunt's house. You know.
I was like, what, what? Why did you like to me?
Wait a minute. The sting goes down in New Orleans
(09:47):
and it's recorded in a hotel room with hidden cameras
and audio with you talking with the guy who was
shown discussing his friendship with vandersl Loot, right, correct, And
so that goes down in New Orleans. Do you think
(10:08):
the guys telling the truth. He's got a person that
would say what putes But one clue he gave me,
he goes to every lie, there's the truth. You just
got to figure it out. From that day on, I
would put everything in my in my wall and what
makes sense of what did it? That's how I I
was able to find the bones. There's a lot of
(10:30):
twists and turns, but I don't want to talk about
about it. But if he gave, would have never put
his two cents into a lot of this, He would
have solved it earlier. It was very difficult, very aggravating working.
What do you make Gabriel of this claim that Natalie's
remains were mixed with a dog's remains to throw off authorities.
(10:54):
I can't. I cannot say anything because it's part of documentary.
The only thing I could tell you, guys is that
there's a lot of twigs in turns. One day that's
gonna say this, the other earned it something that said.
That was the only thing I could tell the guys
is put on your seatbelt, get on your hard hat,
because it's gonna be a wild roller coaster when you
guys see what I went through and everybody else went
through to solve this. Now, the second time we went
(11:17):
to a Ruba, everybody gave up, everybody because again DJ
went in and he got mad and demanded, and John
got pissed off and didn't do anything to attention. I
came back in April, it's out, nobody knowing, and I
told John that this thing, John, something happened, which is
(11:38):
part of the documentary. I cannot say something happened John.
He just came on and said, Okay, let's go. Let's
go to the same area where we were at, and
I'm gonna show you where is that. When John came
came and I said, look, John, listen, I'm broke now
because of you. But I'm gonna borrow his money so
we could go down there. What if you don't line
(11:58):
to me, I'm going to break every single in your
body and I'm gonna leave you down there. So as
soon as we landed, I gotta pass support. As soon
as we landed, we went to the hotel. I stripped
search to him. I mean he took all his clothes
because I want to make sure you have nothing. And
we went straight there. Okay, hold on just one moment,
(12:20):
guys with me. At the center of the controversy regarding
the missing Alabama tene, Natalie Holloway is the man that
has led her father to what many believe are the
remains of Natalie Holloway. And He's right, it's more twisted
than we ever imagined with allegations. Now that her remains
(12:41):
have been mixed with the remains of a dog and
buried to throw off authorities. With me also in addition
to Art, Patricia Cheryl McCollum, also with me the Duke
Alan Do Alan, what can you roll what we learned
on the Oxygen series the other night? Please, let's in
with day one with a sting operation behind us. It's
(13:03):
time to tell Dave where we are. Last night, John
changed her story. Originally he told Gabriel that he recovered
Natalie's remains from the National Forest, and now he claims
that's at a different location near his aunt's rental property.
He's already admitted that he was involved and moving Natalie's rennes. Okay,
(13:23):
and I'm gonna let you see right from the horse's mouth, Okay.
I can take you to where I got the remains.
But it's not really in the National Park. It's up
at the top of a mountain, like not a mountain,
a really big hill there that's almost sick a mountain like.
Houses are going all the way up up this steep hill.
(13:47):
The road just eventually dead ends and it's like a
could sack, or you can turn around, but if you
walk past the cold sack, there's like a little path.
It takes you back into the desert where there's like
cactuses and brush you ease and like that, and the
second clearing of my squy trees to duck under, and
then you're gonna see a freaking opening and then you
(14:09):
can see a bunch of cactuses grouped together. That's where
she was. It was. It's actually only like probably ten
minute walk from my aunt's house, so it was never
a national part. It's never it's tenants sounds walking. John,
I think, is trying to throw Gabriel along because he's
(14:31):
changed the story. In addition to the man who many
are hailing as a hero, Gabriel who has led Natalie's
father this far, aren't Harris with me, Emmy Award winning
reporter Cheryl McCullum, director of the Cold Case Institute, Dr
Patricia Saunders, well known psychologists joining us out of New York,
(14:55):
and of course Alan Duke to you, Cheryl McCullum, way
in on this latest twist. I mean to think that
someone could be so diabolical, not only to kill a
young girl like this, but then to mix her remains
with a dog's to escape detection. I mean, what do
(15:15):
you make of the crime scene. Nancy, I am fascinated
by this news development. But my biggest question right now
is who at the crematory does not notice seven ribs.
I mean, you've got two solds, you've got two pelvits.
Something would be very odd about that being dropt off
there to be cremated. And to you, Dr Patricia Saunders,
(15:37):
I'm listening to Cheryl McCombs speak. But the mindset of
someone that cannot only kill a young girl but then
mix her remains with a dog's the mindset is that
of what I see is typical psychopaths. As a person
who is incapable of empathy and therefore has no conscience,
(16:00):
he could have mixed it with the cow or starts.
He was concerned he would just trying to hide his
crimes and act thinking he's smarter than everybody else. He
mixes it in with jog bones. You know, Art Harris
on this, tell me how this latest development occurred. First, Art,
(16:20):
listen to this. Did he ever tell you what actually,
like what actually happened to night that did like, you know,
to see Natalie dying there? I mean he told me
that freaking bad things that can happen to good people.
Sometimes you just got deal with it. You don't think
(16:43):
it was it was wrong with him trying to try
and to cause the situation. I had to deal with it,
and I had help to the hell who like who
helped him? Sad? Yeah, I've always had a suspicion that
policymander Sleep played a role in this police manor salute
matter statement nobody no case, which means that if they
(17:07):
can't find a body, then no one can be arrested
for the murder of that. How much involvement does he
have in this case to make that type of statement
nobody no case. So it made me think that he's very,
very confident that Natalie would not ever be recovered. So Art,
(17:28):
what do you make of it? Understanding is that his
best friend, this John who Gabriel so heroically lead to
confess or confide, goes to this crematory and he has
it god carcass, and he has Natalie's remains that he
has dug up, and he places the carcass over the
remains and insists on being there when it goes into
(17:53):
the oven, as it were. So he watches this whether
it's true or not. That's what he told Gabriel and
he takes this this bag of ashes, and what I'm
unclear about why didn't they take the ashes? If they
wanted to get rid of them and dump them at sea,
why would they go to the trouble of reburying them somewhere?
(18:14):
That is what my question would be. What do you
make of that, Cheryl, Nancy? If the bones were cremated,
what bones are they examining? Now? Yeah, good question. Back
out to Gabriel, who's at the central of all this. Gabriel,
what bones do you believe that they are examining? Because
it's been made very clear US expert is looking at
(18:38):
bones brought in from Aruba. So if something was cremated,
what is there to examine? Um? Like I said, Nancy, Um,
he said many stories as were we were doing the
the the investigation. And Uh, I cannot say because there's
a twist to all this. It could be true, it
(18:59):
could be a lot. I but there's a twist to everything,
so I can't really. I have to keep you guys
in this question to you, Gabriel, from what you learned
through John, what have you learned about who is your Vanderslute?
What kind of guy is he? Uh, he's a sociopath,
(19:20):
he's a populos, a liar. He basically thinks about himself
and if he could be on TV and be in
the spotlight, that's what he wants. What I have learned
from from John. How do you think he is holding
up now? Is he's still in connection in contact with
John because he's in Peru now, vanishlus in Peru. As
(19:43):
far as side, No, no, John has not. He said
the last time that John wrote him a letter was
back in two thousand, let's see twelve, and has not
written written to him since then, because I guess they
were they were watching their letters. Do you believe that
you're in Vanderslute's father Paula is a Vanderslute, the judge
(20:06):
he was now dead, was covering up for his son.
Oh definitely. There is something else that does that the
not even a documentary people have of material that how
it came to be where Natalie was placed to h
her place to rest for the very first time? Where
was she at? And they don't even have the material.
(20:28):
I try to tell him, but they don't listen to me. Well,
where where was it? I cannot say it right now
due to my lawyer. I can't. I can't disclose that
right now. I understand, I understand, But this way, I'm
just gonna give you a little hint. Paula had a
best friend in Holland that had they had a property.
Paula's knew it very well, that property, very very well.
(20:53):
And that's all I can tell you for now. What
was it like to be working undercover wanting to crack
this case, Gabriel? Honestly? Uh, honestly, Nancy Um, I'm not
you know, I'm not a cop, I'm not an investigator,
and none of this God gave me the will and
(21:13):
it was very, very frustrating. It's like Um handling a
five year old childhood tantrums day by day. It was
very difficult, very very difficult. You nobody has I mean,
if you were locked in with him, you were fibly
strangling because there's no way. And I had to take
all that crap. I had to grow thick skin in
(21:36):
order to get the information I needed to solve this.
How long did it take you, Gabriel Um? Approximately almost
five years mm hmm. Because I started in slow to
get in him. Once I was in, and at the
end I pushed hard and I got what I wanted.
I was almost there, almost there when everybody gave up
(22:00):
but me, and I said, no, no, I'm not gonna
let this go. I know he's there, and I know,
and something remarkable happened. And the second week of April
and I went back when everybody gave up, I went
back and it was exactly the spot where I kind
(22:21):
of had a general idea and everybody was blown the way.
The one that was blown away the most, which he
had his doubts, was Dave Holloway. I remember calling him
and I said, Dave, I found her. He goes, you
gotta be kidding me. So he calls. He tells me
called Chief Urchinson. So I did, gives me the number.
I called him, and I said, I want to meet you.
(22:42):
I found remains. So he comes and meets me. But
when I met him, he goes, you want to know something.
I go what He goes teaching work, called me to
put you in jail. I go for what he goes
for messing with this case. He goes, but I'm not
gonna do that. Can you take me where you where
you found remains? Like? Yes, So we go back there.
They checked their area out and then they leave and
(23:05):
I don't hear nothing, nothing, But I could tell you
one thing. When we were outside the hotel, when they
seen it, the forensic guys seen it his own people.
They're like ke vichards asked him is this human? And
they looked at he goes, yes, this is human. There
was a piece of a skull and other pieces which
(23:26):
I don't want to say. Question do you, Gabriel, are
you in fear in any way? Um? Four days ago,
at three o'clock in the morning, two men in black
came and tried to break in my house. At three
o'clock in the morning. Um, I came out and I
(23:46):
didn't turn the lights on. They seen me and they
took off. I chased him. They got on the black
yr CD and left my My girlfriend is frightened at death,
but I'm not scared. I'm not. I'm like, bring your
body bags because it's gonna get believe and I have
not seen him since. You have a daughter, correct, Yes,
(24:07):
she is in California. They lived with her mother. Me
and her mom have been separated for nineteen years. Tell
me about your daughter. My daughter is twenty four years old.
She was going to school to be a poker dealer
because you know, I mean you you have a good
uh good future, you make good benefits and all that.
(24:28):
And when I was going to go the last time
to a Ruba, she wanted to tell me something and
she goes, how is it going? And I was kind
of depressed. He goes, Dad, don't give up. Dad, you
could do this. You go over there and you do
this because I know I believe in you. And then
I said, yeah, you're right, I have to. So I
(24:49):
borrowed money to go down to a Ruba. And because
like again I was, I was out of money and
my daughter dad day did not tell me she had
a tumor in her size of a small orange. She
did not tell me until a month later. I was broken.
I don't sleep right now. I mean, I'm I'm about
(25:12):
to lose. I don't know what you feel sorry for me,
but I'm about to lose my house where I'm at.
I haven't paid rent in three months to try to
help my daughter. It's hard, it's very hard. But you
know what, if it's all comes out to be Natalie Holloway,
or even if it's not, even if it's somebody else,
we to give closure to a family and my daughter.
(25:36):
She's hurting. But you know, I'm just I'm hoping for
America to help her out. I'm hoping for Americle. She
cries a lot, she's very scared. But you know, God
is not gonna let me down. He put me in
this mission, and I know when you try to follow God,
it's not easy. Not everybody could follow God. But he's
not gonna let me down. He's not. Gabriel, I have
(25:59):
been told you have a go fund Me page to
help your daughter. What is that? My go fundi page
is for my daughter. She has a tumor and it grew,
it's growing rapidly, and you know, she she she can't
really watch too much because she gets tired, and she's
very scared. And I've been trying. I can't come up
(26:22):
with the money. I'm trying really really hard. So I
did to go fund me to see if people will
help me so I could get this disease out of
my daughter and then she needs reconstruction surgery right after that.
What is your go fund me page, Gabriel? What is
your go fund to me page? You could just go
to uh Gabriel Madrigal on my Facebook and you will
find it there. That's magical. In mother A d R
(26:45):
I G A L. Correct, you're the first words for
the first person, Nancy, that especially correctly. Gabriel Madrigal Facebook
and then you can find his go fund me page
to help pay for his daughter's surgery. Wow, you know
what you've been living through? Hell? Man, living through hell.
(27:07):
I have nobody, nobody can understand my troubles. I know
what Dave has went through. I mean, I can't compare.
But you know, it's really hard when when you have
a sick child and basically your hands are tied behind
your back. I'm in Florida, she's in California, and she
will you know, she's scared to go to a doctor
because she's a baby, a daddy's girl, and wants me
by her side. You know, And it's really really frustrating.
(27:30):
It's really really hard, you know, this whole case. Yeah,
it kills me. But you know what is going to
be worth it at the end. And God is not
gonna let me. God is gonna make a miracle for
my daughter. God is gonna make a miracle for me.
But you know till then, you know, I just have
to keep having faith that's all. Let's yeah, I just
(27:50):
wanted to tell Gabriel luck to lose his hope. I
recently lost my son and what gives me satisfaction and
horrific story is that you're in is sitting up in
the mountains somewhere and a horrible prison in Peru and
will best the next twenty something. Yes, m, that's right.
(28:12):
Let's all prayer to God at all. You know they
all pay for what they have done. Question to you, Gabriel,
why do you believe a Reuben? Authorities are so insistent
that this these are not human remains? Why do they
keep saying that? Well, they said why because they got
too much to hide For one Vanish salute, Uh Godfather.
(28:35):
He was somebody, you know, a big top official. So
just think about it. Paula's is it's an official there too.
Vneus Godfather's an official. So you know, they just want
to get it. They wanted to put it under the carpet,
and you know, let's just forget about this. All those
people helped Vanta suit and Paula's not and to get
(28:59):
rid of e A as you name it. They're guilty,
They're very very guilty. And I don't understand why they're
doing that to their own people. I just don't get it.
They should just come to people on the island. What
did they think happen to Natalie? They think they honestly,
they all say that that Venus killed her and Paulas
(29:21):
That's what they all say. What I was there and
that that they you know, they feel ashamed that the
room authorities are doing that to their own people, which
is not right. They need to come clean first. You say, hey, listen,
here are bones and their animal bones. The person takes them,
brings them to the years. The biggest mistake is they
(29:43):
did not declare them. I don't care if it's animal bones.
You declare them. And then and then once they prag
them over here and did the test, they were they
were still doubts that they were not gonna do tests.
But they do the test and then they turn out
to be human. I knew in my heart is Natalie.
Why I say this, Nancy, because John declares it too
(30:04):
well from height from everything, there's some disgusting parts I
cannot say. It is part of the documentary. It's gonna
keep you guys into spense. Now it doesn't benefit me
saying anything about, you know, watch the show, this and
this map eight. I didn't get paid a dime. I
did this out of my bar of my heart because
I have daughters. I did not receive a penny on
(30:25):
none of this. I didn't. I don't have a contract
with them either. Speaking of the series, take a listen
to this now. On this section of tape, John is
sharing his admiration or your own. So when you met Vanasoul,
what did you talk to say? Damn, he's famous. I've
always attempted this guy because I always thought it was cool,
(30:47):
just the way he acted on the news and to
me like it's oh, it's so Smell's so cocky and
I loved him for that. I was like, oh, yeah,
I love that he's cocky and he knows he guy
the way with it and he's enamored with yarn bannerslup
yond life is the guy. And I don't know why
Patricia Saunders, after all he has been through for all
(31:10):
of these years. What will it do to Dave Holloway
if it turns out that this is not Natalie Holloway.
I think Dave is a man of courage and determination.
The best antidote to grief is action, and he has
been doing that for more than fifteen years. I think
(31:33):
he will continue his quest to find the doors remain.
If he gives up, now he's opening himself up to
an accumulation of traumatic grief. I don't think he's that
kind of guy, Doctor Saunders, What will it do to
Dave Holloway if this if this turns out to be
Natalie Holloway's remains his daughter? I think it would be
(31:56):
a mixture of relief and grief. For the business such
things closure, especially when when a child is murdered, but
there's some sense of being grounded that you have something
to bury, that you can have a headstone the cemetery.
(32:16):
I think she would be would have been relieved, and
I said, think it would have opened the doors for
her beginning to deal with her traumatically. Yeah, Sheryl McCollum.
When you're listening to Gabriel talk and he's talking about
the specific location that it is a set of female bones,
(32:38):
you know this is your expertise, your cold case expert.
I'd like you to analyze what you're hearing. Nancy. What
I'm hearing is they take a body and they move
it from the beach to a place and they bury it.
Then they get another person to dig her up and
move her again. And now you've got some idy that
(33:00):
keeps running their mouths saying, hey, you know this is her,
and you're gonna be able to find it, and you're
gonna be able to go broke looking for her. And
now they described they added dog bones, then they cremated her.
Then they say no, no, she's in burlap. Nancy. It
sounds so far fetched to me that men are normally
a to b in the way they dispose the body.
(33:21):
And if you're on the beach and the Atlantic Ocean
is right there, that's where you put her and hide her.
But Gabriel wants me to understand and believe that how
was told your hand. No, you stay right there with
a dead body while I go back and get a
burlap sack to break their legs and put her in it.
And then we're gonna put a cactus over like that's
gonna hide something like you know, other animals aren't gonna
(33:44):
dig at that and perhaps unearth her themselves. None of
this rings true for me. I wanted to I want
this for Dave and Best so bad, But I need
a lot more answers before I buy this. You know,
that is kind of our story, Gabriel, that they would
(34:04):
put her hot I guess, bury her at a location
where there was a cactus. Is that how it went Art?
Art Harris that she was buried by a cactus, Nancy.
Apparently the way it went down, they took two They
took the body to this spot that Paulus, the judge
directed them, and they dug it up and at the
(34:25):
last minute he said, let's mark the spot with a
cactus so we know where it is, And so they
grabbed a cactus nearby plopped it on top, and that
was the last of that chapter. Then what then They
later come back and this friend of Gabriel's, John was
paid to help your an fetch the body and move it.
(34:48):
And that is apparently when they took it to the crematory,
mixed it with a dog and got the ashes combined.
I'm at a loss as to what happened after that, Art.
What I don't understand is this, If her body was
in its natural form when it was buried under the cactus,
and then it was taken and cremated, mixed with a
(35:10):
dog and cremated. What are the bones that they are
now scrutinizing. What are those bones? Aren't Harris, Nancy? That
is the big question. How would you have anything left
over after you ran her remains and the supposed dog
carcass through this oven and mixed them. So, you know,
(35:33):
I don't know that if Gabriel can answer that, maybe
this is a twist and turn we haven't expected. But
but if you don't have anything hard, any cartilage, any
bone to analyze other than ashes, I don't know that
that's possible. Nancy. Now hold on, let's think this through.
And I've said this many many times. I learned it
from a senior judge I practiced in front of There's
(35:57):
a way many times to make all witnesses speak the
truth and imputing perjury on no one. In other words,
this all may be true. She may have been buried
under a cactus and those bones removed and buried somewhere else,
hence the discovery of bones. This crematory story maybe totally wrong,
(36:23):
or the crematory story itself may be true. It's got
to be one or the other. But I know this, Gabriel.
According to Dave Holloway and the US medical doctor expert.
Human remains were found and the doctor is analyzing them
(36:43):
and extracting DNA from them. They are human remains belonging
to a female. So, Gabriel, how does it work? How
could there be bones and this cremation story. Well, Nancy,
it's very simple. If you cream me something, you're not
(37:04):
gonna have bones. So the other option is it never
got created. That is simple answer, but it's part of
the documentary. I cannot says it's a big twist. I
hear you. I mean they That's what I was just saying,
and you said it very succinctly. They can't both be true.
Someone may have been mixed with a dog at a crematory,
(37:27):
bones may have been taken and moved, but they can't
be the same thing. Nancy, Could I add something? Yeah?
I would like to play a clip now of the
voice stress analyzer that t. J. Ward has that he
put John's explanation through. They in this clip listened to
(37:51):
John explaining the crematory and the dog scenario. Let's hear
what their expert analysis of the truthfulness of that statement is. Yeah,
let's listen. We're going to do an analysis on John
and Gabriel's conversation and try to confirm some of the
information that was communicated in the last couple of days
(38:13):
to be true or not true. We're going to run
the audio of the perpetrator through the layered voice analysis
and see how it comes back as far as how
truthful he's being after changing his story. Okay, are you
keyed up on the segment we want to try. We're
ready to go. Okay, it wasn't. It wasn't in a
(38:35):
national park. So these two snippets together we have highly
stressed in truth. He's smart enough to know he's describing
himself committing a crime. When you're looking at these, you
can't look at any individual snippet by itself. You're looking
at what's around it. You're looking at the numbers, You're
looking at what's being said here. And I think he's
telling the truth here almost entirely. Uh, that it's not
(38:59):
in the national forest, and that he's uh, it's going
to be somewhere close to his aunt's house. My instincts
all along, just from watching the interview and listening what
the perpetrator had to say. It was my belief that
he was being truthful, that this new location was the
actual location. And now that we're able to confirm with
(39:22):
the voice analysis some of the information that we were
in question, well I feel good about it. Moving on
to the next relevant section. He's talking about at the
crematory and that how vander Sleut knew that he could
get the cremation done without um anybody looking in the box.
(39:42):
He knew he could get it done and paid him
under the table money. Vander Sleut knew the family and
again this shows up as inaccuracy. Again the table money
because it was fine. We see a high tension, bad feelings,
medium risk inaccuracies. There's definitely some thing more here to
explore that he's holding back about the crematory. Out to
(40:04):
Art Harris, Art Nancy, one of my questions has given
the the dark heart of anyone who has friends with
your in vander salute and thinking like a criminal and
a con man. What would keep him from perhaps taking
some of the bones and burying them somewhere else so
he could find them later in some sort of leverage
(40:25):
or shakedown deal. I haven't even thought that far, but
you know, Gabriel, with all the cases that I've tried
and literally in excess of ten thousand cases that I
have either investigated orchestrated guilty, please or tried. I tried.
(40:46):
When I'm confused, I go back to what I know. Okay, Gabriel,
this is what I know, and this is what I'm
hearing from you, and I really appreciate you being with
us today. Just wants you to know that I know this.
I know that I know Dave Holloway. I know that
he loved Natalie more than anything. This is not some
(41:09):
kind of a stunt for Dave Holloway. I don't believe that.
And Dave Holloway and this very well known US doctor
say it is human bones, and the doctor says it's
female Eastern European bones. So was that Natalie that went
(41:30):
through a crematory? And these are somebody else's bones? Maybe?
Are these Natalie's bones? Maybe? But I do know both
can't be true. And I believe Holloway and I believe
that US doctor that they've got bones, and you stated
it very clearly. Let me ask you this, What were
(41:52):
your impressions, Gabriel, of Dave Holloway, Because I like him
a lot. My impression is Dave Holloway. I seen him
broken man. I see a man that has suffered for years.
I've seen a man that is desperately um asking for questions.
He wants to find her. All he wants is closure.
And that day, that day I met him, I I
(42:15):
you know, I said, you know, I'm not gonna quit.
I'm not gonna quit. I Am going to find her.
And I know in my heart I did. I know
in my heart I did, because I have videos and
that recorded in my house before I went to a
Rubat that I knew I was gonna it was gonna happen.
(42:36):
And I know in my heart as her I don't
know why, I have a strong feeling because I didn't
come this far for nothing, and I want to give
Dave Holloway and Beth closure so they could bring their
baby home. There's a big old twist to this. Now,
the gentleman that was just saying about if there's more parts,
(42:58):
I cannot say. That's a big twist to this story.
Not even t J knows about this. I'm the only one.
The FBI is the one that knows. I'm not gonna
share information when people that treat me like trash. No,
I'm not. Now does the documentary people know. Uh, yes
(43:22):
they do. But I'm just gonna leave it at that. There.
This thing is full of twists and turns, and that
two liars try to get away with it. But if God,
if God is good, he's gonna give us what we want,
that is Natalie, And we could somehow pray to God
that they could charge these guys. And I'm afraid they're not.
(43:46):
I'm afraid they're gonna walk away free, all right, Harris
swaying Nancy. The fact that he just mentioned FBI gives
me a little hope because if you remember, your end
was also under indictment fortune aching down man Natalie's mother
for twenty dollars, which is hanging over his head should
he ever come back and be tried for murder. So
(44:09):
until now there has been no way to get the
FBI into a murder case because they have jurisdiction of
American citizens who die overseas. But if this suddenly has
gotten them back in to the case, that gives me hope.
This is what it boils down to. From me. As
I was listening to Gabriel talk about Dave Holloway calling
(44:32):
him a broken man, I was just thinking, as I
was listening to Gabriel talk. Everybody on the program right
now has had a severe loss, a severe loss to
think about losing your child. You know, I thought I
(44:54):
knew all about pain When my fiancee was murdered, we
in my dad passed away just recently. I did not
think I could put one ft in front of the other.
He had always been kind of my soul mate, my
dad Mac to think of one day you just simply
(45:17):
never see your child again, and you play over and
over in your mind that last time you saw them.
That is the hell that Dave, Holloway and Beth have
been living in all this time. And Gabriel, whatever the
(45:38):
results are, you have moved this case forward. And I'm
so grateful to you. Nancy Grace Crime Stories signing off
goodbye friends. One
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com Climb Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph
(01:10):
Channel one thirty two, two thousand five. On the small
island of a rubat. Natalie Holloway was with friends at
a local bar where she was last seen getting a
ride with Uron Vandersloughte. Natalie's disappearance remains a mystery. Her
dad says that he in a private eye found human
remains in a rubo. We took those remains and had
those remains tested and then just returned last week. That's
(01:30):
her human remains. Will they be able to be some
kind of test, Dave, that will be answer once and
for all whether this is Natalie. We're in the process
of doing a d n A test. Dave Holloway says
that a friend of a man who was once suspected
in her disappearance tipped them off. I know that there's
a possibility this could be someone else, and I'm just
trying to wait and see. A beautiful young girl goes
(01:53):
on her high school senior trip. Her parents take her
to say goodbye. It's heavily chaperon. All is well until
it's time for her to come home, and she never
shows up at the plane. The chaperones don't know what happened,
her friends don't know what happened, and the parents are
(02:14):
devastated to this day, they still don't know what happened
to Natalie Holloway. And with me today in addition to
an all star lineup, is the man at the center
of the search for Natalie Holloway, some calling him the hero, Gabriel.
(02:35):
He was managed to help crack this case wide open.
He is with us now, I mean, I see Grace,
this is crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.
First of all, before I go to Gabriel, I'm gonna
start with Art Harris, Emmy Award winning reporter Art. What
is the latest? I'm now understanding that someone in the
(02:57):
case claims Natalie's bones have been mixed with a dog's
bones and cremated for two hundred dollars. Have you heard that?
One report Nancy has his friend taking the remains to
a local crematory and paying the officials there two hundred
dollars to burn the bones with the remains of a dog. Now,
(03:19):
how would they how would that happen? Well, he had cash,
he says, and they put it through the uh, the oven,
and came back with a mixture of ashes, supposedly from
Natalie and dog. Why didn't they stop him? The guy said,
this is you know John who's supposedly RAN's lover and friend. Well,
I don't I love that dog. I don't want anyone
(03:39):
to see him go in except me. So he gets
the ashes and then the story is he's supposed to
bury them for Uran and what happens from there? I
guess Gabriel can tell us more. Well, here's the gist
of it. A missing Alabama girl, Natalie Holloway, skeletal remains,
so believe, were mixed with those of a dead dog
(04:03):
and an effort to disguise that it was Natalie, then
taken to a crematory where a man paid two hundred
bucks to cremate to burn them so the ashes could
be scattered. Is it true? How did we get to
this point? Natalie's father has traveled all over the world,
(04:24):
including as far as Nicaragua, to help find his daughter,
and joining me right now the man at the center
of the search for Natalie many heiling him as a hero. Gabriel.
Now Gabriel. Back on August thirty, we had an episode
on Natalie Holloway, and in that episode I mistakenly idead
a person named Gabriel as the guy I had previously interviewed,
(04:48):
and I did the interview when you're in vander Salute,
the judge's son had been arrested in charge in the
murder of a second girl, Stephanie Tausiana Flores. Now I
made the mistake about thinking Gabriel was that personal interview before,
but he is not that person, and I really apologize.
Nobody's too big to say they were wrong. I apologize
(05:10):
for that confusion. And with me here today is the
real Gabriel, Not the Gabriel I confused, but the real
Gabriel who has really led Natalie's father to this point.
And Gabriel, I mean, I just want to say that
(05:32):
if you had not done this, we wouldn't have even
gotten this far. And whether it turns out to be
her remains or not, or some other woman's remains, what's
so stunning to me is that a Reuben. Authorities kept
saying it's not a person, it's not a person, it's
it's an animal. Well, our expert here in the US
(05:52):
says it is a young woman of Eastern European descent.
So it makes me wonder, Gabriel, what else the Auruban
of alorities are hiding. But that's put in the cart
before the horse. Start at the beginning, Gabriel, please tell
me your story. I met John Goodwook in two thousand thirteen,
and I met him through a friend I'm going to
(06:13):
head and gave him the chance. And one day he
was drunk. He goes, you know who Natalie and all
the ways. I go, yeah, I recall poor girl. He goes, oh,
I know more than anybody knows in the entire life.
I go, what do you mean? He goes, I was there.
Wait what he goes, I'm at Manaslud in two thousands tens.
That day he tells me, you know what, I think
that gruesome. So he starts showing me pictures and all
(06:37):
this and that of him in Vanaslud. And then that
day something in me said I can look the other way,
or I go and try to solve this. So something
came in me and and said I'm gonna do it.
Might not be easy, but I'm gonna do it. So
I befriend John and acted like his best friend. I mean,
(06:57):
I took him to every single placeful because I played poker.
I took him here, I took me there. I spent
thousands of dollars to you know, make him my best
friends so he could open up to me. So by
a two thousand fifth team, he went ahead and opened up.
I mean he completely opened up. He goes, you're my
best friend. And in two thousand fifteen, I tried to
(07:18):
call Beth Holloway. I mean I tried for three or
four months. I tried everything. I never got an answer.
So then I went ahead and called Dave Holloway and
I got an answer and I said Hi Dave, and
he goes yes. I said, look, I know a lot
of people have cry roll foot, but I haven't been
videos that you should be. You should look at. I'm
not asking for money, I just want you to look
I have. I'm a father to a daughter, so I know, uh,
(07:41):
if that happened to me, well you know you're pain.
So he comes to j Ward and he did. Ward
calls me. He comes to Venice, Florida and meet me,
and t J was blown away. He goes, oh my god, wow,
I mean DJ didn't know nothing. I go, t J,
why did you miss this? And back in two thousand
tens he made jokes the job bone is connected to
(08:01):
the room. I'm like, come on, you missed a lot
of information here. So he said, well, you know, I've
been working on this case and doesn't this and that?
So I didn't say nothing. Well, let me ask a question, Gabriel,
when you say they were blown away, what is it
that you knew that blew them away? That Young knew
exactly where he was carried? Young knew exactly how she
(08:25):
actually died. Well, did he tell you how she actually died?
He told me all this and confessions on video. I
mean I reported without well what did he say what happened?
It's part of the documentary and I can't say it. Okay,
I understand, Okay, go ahead. Then he said where it
comes to me and says Dave Holloway has put a
lot of money to this, and we got a chance
(08:45):
to do a documentary. Would you like to join them?
And I said sure, you know, why not? You know,
I help out. We we did a boat trip and uh,
I guess the laws didn't qualify there. So t J
said that he was gonna pay me, which he never
paid me for for my um on my expenses there.
So I said, it's okay, you know, I don't care.
(09:06):
So then we went to New Orleans and we did
desting operation and TJ at the time was pushing because
he wanted information right away, and I said, listen, he's
a name yac. You cannot push this guy. He will
close up, he will not say a word. You have
to just be calm and he will give you what
(09:26):
you want. But you have to relax and be calm.
So we didn't really get nowhere we I mean, he
told us that there that it wasn't at the fort anymore.
It was somewhere else at his aunt's house. You know.
I was like, what, what? Why did you like to me?
Wait a minute. The sting goes down in New Orleans
(09:47):
and it's recorded in a hotel room with hidden cameras
and audio with you talking with the guy who was
shown discussing his friendship with vandersl Loot, right, correct, And
so that goes down in New Orleans. Do you think
(10:08):
the guys telling the truth. He's got a person that
would say what putes But one clue he gave me,
he goes to every lie, there's the truth. You just
got to figure it out. From that day on, I
would put everything in my in my wall and what
makes sense of what did it? That's how I I
was able to find the bones. There's a lot of
(10:30):
twists and turns, but I don't want to talk about
about it. But if he gave, would have never put
his two cents into a lot of this, He would
have solved it earlier. It was very difficult, very aggravating working.
What do you make Gabriel of this claim that Natalie's
remains were mixed with a dog's remains to throw off authorities.
(10:54):
I can't. I cannot say anything because it's part of documentary.
The only thing I could tell you, guys is that
there's a lot of twigs in turns. One day that's
gonna say this, the other earned it something that said.
That was the only thing I could tell the guys
is put on your seatbelt, get on your hard hat,
because it's gonna be a wild roller coaster when you
guys see what I went through and everybody else went
through to solve this. Now, the second time we went
(11:17):
to a Ruba, everybody gave up, everybody because again DJ
went in and he got mad and demanded, and John
got pissed off and didn't do anything to attention. I
came back in April, it's out, nobody knowing, and I
told John that this thing, John, something happened, which is
(11:38):
part of the documentary. I cannot say something happened John.
He just came on and said, Okay, let's go. Let's
go to the same area where we were at, and
I'm gonna show you where is that. When John came
came and I said, look, John, listen, I'm broke now
because of you. But I'm gonna borrow his money so
we could go down there. What if you don't line
(11:58):
to me, I'm going to break every single in your
body and I'm gonna leave you down there. So as
soon as we landed, I gotta pass support. As soon
as we landed, we went to the hotel. I stripped
search to him. I mean he took all his clothes
because I want to make sure you have nothing. And
we went straight there. Okay, hold on just one moment,
(12:20):
guys with me. At the center of the controversy regarding
the missing Alabama tene, Natalie Holloway is the man that
has led her father to what many believe are the
remains of Natalie Holloway. And He's right, it's more twisted
than we ever imagined with allegations. Now that her remains
(12:41):
have been mixed with the remains of a dog and
buried to throw off authorities. With me also in addition
to Art, Patricia Cheryl McCollum, also with me the Duke
Alan Do Alan, what can you roll what we learned
on the Oxygen series the other night? Please, let's in
with day one with a sting operation behind us. It's
(13:03):
time to tell Dave where we are. Last night, John
changed her story. Originally he told Gabriel that he recovered
Natalie's remains from the National Forest, and now he claims
that's at a different location near his aunt's rental property.
He's already admitted that he was involved and moving Natalie's rennes. Okay,
(13:23):
and I'm gonna let you see right from the horse's mouth, Okay.
I can take you to where I got the remains.
But it's not really in the National Park. It's up
at the top of a mountain, like not a mountain,
a really big hill there that's almost sick a mountain like.
Houses are going all the way up up this steep hill.
(13:47):
The road just eventually dead ends and it's like a
could sack, or you can turn around, but if you
walk past the cold sack, there's like a little path.
It takes you back into the desert where there's like
cactuses and brush you ease and like that, and the
second clearing of my squy trees to duck under, and
then you're gonna see a freaking opening and then you
(14:09):
can see a bunch of cactuses grouped together. That's where
she was. It was. It's actually only like probably ten
minute walk from my aunt's house, so it was never
a national part. It's never it's tenants sounds walking. John,
I think, is trying to throw Gabriel along because he's
(14:31):
changed the story. In addition to the man who many
are hailing as a hero, Gabriel who has led Natalie's
father this far, aren't Harris with me, Emmy Award winning
reporter Cheryl McCullum, director of the Cold Case Institute, Dr
Patricia Saunders, well known psychologists joining us out of New York,
(14:55):
and of course Alan Duke to you, Cheryl McCullum, way
in on this latest twist. I mean to think that
someone could be so diabolical, not only to kill a
young girl like this, but then to mix her remains
with a dog's to escape detection. I mean, what do
(15:15):
you make of the crime scene. Nancy, I am fascinated
by this news development. But my biggest question right now
is who at the crematory does not notice seven ribs.
I mean, you've got two solds, you've got two pelvits.
Something would be very odd about that being dropt off
there to be cremated. And to you, Dr Patricia Saunders,
(15:37):
I'm listening to Cheryl McCombs speak. But the mindset of
someone that cannot only kill a young girl but then
mix her remains with a dog's the mindset is that
of what I see is typical psychopaths. As a person
who is incapable of empathy and therefore has no conscience,
(16:00):
he could have mixed it with the cow or starts.
He was concerned he would just trying to hide his
crimes and act thinking he's smarter than everybody else. He
mixes it in with jog bones. You know, Art Harris
on this, tell me how this latest development occurred. First, Art,
(16:20):
listen to this. Did he ever tell you what actually,
like what actually happened to night that did like, you know,
to see Natalie dying there? I mean he told me
that freaking bad things that can happen to good people.
Sometimes you just got deal with it. You don't think
(16:43):
it was it was wrong with him trying to try
and to cause the situation. I had to deal with it,
and I had help to the hell who like who
helped him? Sad? Yeah, I've always had a suspicion that
policymander Sleep played a role in this police manor salute
matter statement nobody no case, which means that if they
(17:07):
can't find a body, then no one can be arrested
for the murder of that. How much involvement does he
have in this case to make that type of statement
nobody no case. So it made me think that he's very,
very confident that Natalie would not ever be recovered. So Art,
(17:28):
what do you make of it? Understanding is that his
best friend, this John who Gabriel so heroically lead to
confess or confide, goes to this crematory and he has
it god carcass, and he has Natalie's remains that he
has dug up, and he places the carcass over the
remains and insists on being there when it goes into
(17:53):
the oven, as it were. So he watches this whether
it's true or not. That's what he told Gabriel and
he takes this this bag of ashes, and what I'm
unclear about why didn't they take the ashes? If they
wanted to get rid of them and dump them at sea,
why would they go to the trouble of reburying them somewhere?
(18:14):
That is what my question would be. What do you
make of that, Cheryl, Nancy? If the bones were cremated,
what bones are they examining? Now? Yeah, good question. Back
out to Gabriel, who's at the central of all this. Gabriel,
what bones do you believe that they are examining? Because
it's been made very clear US expert is looking at
(18:38):
bones brought in from Aruba. So if something was cremated,
what is there to examine? Um? Like I said, Nancy, Um,
he said many stories as were we were doing the
the the investigation. And Uh, I cannot say because there's
a twist to all this. It could be true, it
(18:59):
could be a lot. I but there's a twist to everything,
so I can't really. I have to keep you guys
in this question to you, Gabriel, from what you learned
through John, what have you learned about who is your Vanderslute?
What kind of guy is he? Uh, he's a sociopath,
(19:20):
he's a populos, a liar. He basically thinks about himself
and if he could be on TV and be in
the spotlight, that's what he wants. What I have learned
from from John. How do you think he is holding
up now? Is he's still in connection in contact with
John because he's in Peru now, vanishlus in Peru. As
(19:43):
far as side, No, no, John has not. He said
the last time that John wrote him a letter was
back in two thousand, let's see twelve, and has not
written written to him since then, because I guess they
were they were watching their letters. Do you believe that
you're in Vanderslute's father Paula is a Vanderslute, the judge
(20:06):
he was now dead, was covering up for his son.
Oh definitely. There is something else that does that the
not even a documentary people have of material that how
it came to be where Natalie was placed to h
her place to rest for the very first time? Where
was she at? And they don't even have the material.
(20:28):
I try to tell him, but they don't listen to me. Well,
where where was it? I cannot say it right now
due to my lawyer. I can't. I can't disclose that
right now. I understand, I understand, But this way, I'm
just gonna give you a little hint. Paula had a
best friend in Holland that had they had a property.
Paula's knew it very well, that property, very very well.
(20:53):
And that's all I can tell you for now. What
was it like to be working undercover wanting to crack
this case, Gabriel? Honestly? Uh, honestly, Nancy Um, I'm not
you know, I'm not a cop, I'm not an investigator,
and none of this God gave me the will and
(21:13):
it was very, very frustrating. It's like Um handling a
five year old childhood tantrums day by day. It was
very difficult, very very difficult. You nobody has I mean,
if you were locked in with him, you were fibly
strangling because there's no way. And I had to take
all that crap. I had to grow thick skin in
(21:36):
order to get the information I needed to solve this.
How long did it take you, Gabriel Um? Approximately almost
five years mm hmm. Because I started in slow to
get in him. Once I was in, and at the
end I pushed hard and I got what I wanted.
I was almost there, almost there when everybody gave up
(22:00):
but me, and I said, no, no, I'm not gonna
let this go. I know he's there, and I know,
and something remarkable happened. And the second week of April
and I went back when everybody gave up, I went
back and it was exactly the spot where I kind
(22:21):
of had a general idea and everybody was blown the way.
The one that was blown away the most, which he
had his doubts, was Dave Holloway. I remember calling him
and I said, Dave, I found her. He goes, you
gotta be kidding me. So he calls. He tells me
called Chief Urchinson. So I did, gives me the number.
I called him, and I said, I want to meet you.
(22:42):
I found remains. So he comes and meets me. But
when I met him, he goes, you want to know something.
I go what He goes teaching work, called me to
put you in jail. I go for what he goes
for messing with this case. He goes, but I'm not
gonna do that. Can you take me where you where
you found remains? Like? Yes, So we go back there.
They checked their area out and then they leave and
(23:05):
I don't hear nothing, nothing, But I could tell you
one thing. When we were outside the hotel, when they
seen it, the forensic guys seen it his own people.
They're like ke vichards asked him is this human? And
they looked at he goes, yes, this is human. There
was a piece of a skull and other pieces which
(23:26):
I don't want to say. Question do you, Gabriel, are
you in fear in any way? Um? Four days ago,
at three o'clock in the morning, two men in black
came and tried to break in my house. At three
o'clock in the morning. Um, I came out and I
(23:46):
didn't turn the lights on. They seen me and they
took off. I chased him. They got on the black
yr CD and left my My girlfriend is frightened at death,
but I'm not scared. I'm not. I'm like, bring your
body bags because it's gonna get believe and I have
not seen him since. You have a daughter, correct, Yes,
(24:07):
she is in California. They lived with her mother. Me
and her mom have been separated for nineteen years. Tell
me about your daughter. My daughter is twenty four years old.
She was going to school to be a poker dealer
because you know, I mean you you have a good
uh good future, you make good benefits and all that.
(24:28):
And when I was going to go the last time
to a Ruba, she wanted to tell me something and
she goes, how is it going? And I was kind
of depressed. He goes, Dad, don't give up. Dad, you
could do this. You go over there and you do
this because I know I believe in you. And then
I said, yeah, you're right, I have to. So I
(24:49):
borrowed money to go down to a Ruba. And because
like again I was, I was out of money and
my daughter dad day did not tell me she had
a tumor in her size of a small orange. She
did not tell me until a month later. I was broken.
I don't sleep right now. I mean, I'm I'm about
(25:12):
to lose. I don't know what you feel sorry for me,
but I'm about to lose my house where I'm at.
I haven't paid rent in three months to try to
help my daughter. It's hard, it's very hard. But you
know what, if it's all comes out to be Natalie Holloway,
or even if it's not, even if it's somebody else,
we to give closure to a family and my daughter.
(25:36):
She's hurting. But you know, I'm just I'm hoping for
America to help her out. I'm hoping for Americle. She
cries a lot, she's very scared. But you know, God
is not gonna let me down. He put me in
this mission, and I know when you try to follow God,
it's not easy. Not everybody could follow God. But he's
not gonna let me down. He's not. Gabriel, I have
(25:59):
been told you have a go fund Me page to
help your daughter. What is that? My go fundi page
is for my daughter. She has a tumor and it grew,
it's growing rapidly, and you know, she she she can't
really watch too much because she gets tired, and she's
very scared. And I've been trying. I can't come up
(26:22):
with the money. I'm trying really really hard. So I
did to go fund me to see if people will
help me so I could get this disease out of
my daughter and then she needs reconstruction surgery right after that.
What is your go fund me page, Gabriel? What is
your go fund to me page? You could just go
to uh Gabriel Madrigal on my Facebook and you will
find it there. That's magical. In mother A d R
(26:45):
I G A L. Correct, you're the first words for
the first person, Nancy, that especially correctly. Gabriel Madrigal Facebook
and then you can find his go fund me page
to help pay for his daughter's surgery. Wow, you know
what you've been living through? Hell? Man, living through hell.
(27:07):
I have nobody, nobody can understand my troubles. I know
what Dave has went through. I mean, I can't compare.
But you know, it's really hard when when you have
a sick child and basically your hands are tied behind
your back. I'm in Florida, she's in California, and she
will you know, she's scared to go to a doctor
because she's a baby, a daddy's girl, and wants me
by her side. You know, And it's really really frustrating.
(27:30):
It's really really hard, you know, this whole case. Yeah,
it kills me. But you know what is going to
be worth it at the end. And God is not
gonna let me. God is gonna make a miracle for
my daughter. God is gonna make a miracle for me.
But you know till then, you know, I just have
to keep having faith that's all. Let's yeah, I just
(27:50):
wanted to tell Gabriel luck to lose his hope. I
recently lost my son and what gives me satisfaction and
horrific story is that you're in is sitting up in
the mountains somewhere and a horrible prison in Peru and
will best the next twenty something. Yes, m, that's right.
(28:12):
Let's all prayer to God at all. You know they
all pay for what they have done. Question to you, Gabriel,
why do you believe a Reuben? Authorities are so insistent
that this these are not human remains? Why do they
keep saying that? Well, they said why because they got
too much to hide For one Vanish salute, Uh Godfather.
(28:35):
He was somebody, you know, a big top official. So
just think about it. Paula's is it's an official there too.
Vneus Godfather's an official. So you know, they just want
to get it. They wanted to put it under the carpet,
and you know, let's just forget about this. All those
people helped Vanta suit and Paula's not and to get
(28:59):
rid of e A as you name it. They're guilty,
They're very very guilty. And I don't understand why they're
doing that to their own people. I just don't get it.
They should just come to people on the island. What
did they think happen to Natalie? They think they honestly,
they all say that that Venus killed her and Paulas
(29:21):
That's what they all say. What I was there and
that that they you know, they feel ashamed that the
room authorities are doing that to their own people, which
is not right. They need to come clean first. You say, hey, listen,
here are bones and their animal bones. The person takes them,
brings them to the years. The biggest mistake is they
(29:43):
did not declare them. I don't care if it's animal bones.
You declare them. And then and then once they prag
them over here and did the test, they were they
were still doubts that they were not gonna do tests.
But they do the test and then they turn out
to be human. I knew in my heart is Natalie.
Why I say this, Nancy, because John declares it too
(30:04):
well from height from everything, there's some disgusting parts I
cannot say. It is part of the documentary. It's gonna
keep you guys into spense. Now it doesn't benefit me
saying anything about, you know, watch the show, this and
this map eight. I didn't get paid a dime. I
did this out of my bar of my heart because
I have daughters. I did not receive a penny on
(30:25):
none of this. I didn't. I don't have a contract
with them either. Speaking of the series, take a listen
to this now. On this section of tape, John is
sharing his admiration or your own. So when you met Vanasoul,
what did you talk to say? Damn, he's famous. I've
always attempted this guy because I always thought it was cool,
(30:47):
just the way he acted on the news and to
me like it's oh, it's so Smell's so cocky and
I loved him for that. I was like, oh, yeah,
I love that he's cocky and he knows he guy
the way with it and he's enamored with yarn bannerslup
yond life is the guy. And I don't know why
Patricia Saunders, after all he has been through for all
(31:10):
of these years. What will it do to Dave Holloway
if it turns out that this is not Natalie Holloway.
I think Dave is a man of courage and determination.
The best antidote to grief is action, and he has
been doing that for more than fifteen years. I think
(31:33):
he will continue his quest to find the doors remain.
If he gives up, now he's opening himself up to
an accumulation of traumatic grief. I don't think he's that
kind of guy, Doctor Saunders, What will it do to
Dave Holloway if this if this turns out to be
Natalie Holloway's remains his daughter? I think it would be
(31:56):
a mixture of relief and grief. For the business such
things closure, especially when when a child is murdered, but
there's some sense of being grounded that you have something
to bury, that you can have a headstone the cemetery.
(32:16):
I think she would be would have been relieved, and
I said, think it would have opened the doors for
her beginning to deal with her traumatically. Yeah, Sheryl McCollum.
When you're listening to Gabriel talk and he's talking about
the specific location that it is a set of female bones,
(32:38):
you know this is your expertise, your cold case expert.
I'd like you to analyze what you're hearing. Nancy. What
I'm hearing is they take a body and they move
it from the beach to a place and they bury it.
Then they get another person to dig her up and
move her again. And now you've got some idy that
(33:00):
keeps running their mouths saying, hey, you know this is her,
and you're gonna be able to find it, and you're
gonna be able to go broke looking for her. And
now they described they added dog bones, then they cremated her.
Then they say no, no, she's in burlap. Nancy. It
sounds so far fetched to me that men are normally
a to b in the way they dispose the body.
(33:21):
And if you're on the beach and the Atlantic Ocean
is right there, that's where you put her and hide her.
But Gabriel wants me to understand and believe that how
was told your hand. No, you stay right there with
a dead body while I go back and get a
burlap sack to break their legs and put her in it.
And then we're gonna put a cactus over like that's
gonna hide something like you know, other animals aren't gonna
(33:44):
dig at that and perhaps unearth her themselves. None of
this rings true for me. I wanted to I want
this for Dave and Best so bad, But I need
a lot more answers before I buy this. You know,
that is kind of our story, Gabriel, that they would
(34:04):
put her hot I guess, bury her at a location
where there was a cactus. Is that how it went Art?
Art Harris that she was buried by a cactus, Nancy.
Apparently the way it went down, they took two They
took the body to this spot that Paulus, the judge
directed them, and they dug it up and at the
(34:25):
last minute he said, let's mark the spot with a
cactus so we know where it is, And so they
grabbed a cactus nearby plopped it on top, and that
was the last of that chapter. Then what then They
later come back and this friend of Gabriel's, John was
paid to help your an fetch the body and move it.
(34:48):
And that is apparently when they took it to the crematory,
mixed it with a dog and got the ashes combined.
I'm at a loss as to what happened after that, Art.
What I don't understand is this, If her body was
in its natural form when it was buried under the cactus,
and then it was taken and cremated, mixed with a
(35:10):
dog and cremated. What are the bones that they are
now scrutinizing. What are those bones? Aren't Harris, Nancy? That
is the big question. How would you have anything left
over after you ran her remains and the supposed dog
carcass through this oven and mixed them. So, you know,
(35:33):
I don't know that if Gabriel can answer that, maybe
this is a twist and turn we haven't expected. But
but if you don't have anything hard, any cartilage, any
bone to analyze other than ashes, I don't know that
that's possible. Nancy. Now hold on, let's think this through.
And I've said this many many times. I learned it
from a senior judge I practiced in front of There's
(35:57):
a way many times to make all witnesses speak the
truth and imputing perjury on no one. In other words,
this all may be true. She may have been buried
under a cactus and those bones removed and buried somewhere else,
hence the discovery of bones. This crematory story maybe totally wrong,
(36:23):
or the crematory story itself may be true. It's got
to be one or the other. But I know this, Gabriel.
According to Dave Holloway and the US medical doctor expert.
Human remains were found and the doctor is analyzing them
(36:43):
and extracting DNA from them. They are human remains belonging
to a female. So, Gabriel, how does it work? How
could there be bones and this cremation story. Well, Nancy,
it's very simple. If you cream me something, you're not
(37:04):
gonna have bones. So the other option is it never
got created. That is simple answer, but it's part of
the documentary. I cannot says it's a big twist. I
hear you. I mean they That's what I was just saying,
and you said it very succinctly. They can't both be true.
Someone may have been mixed with a dog at a crematory,
(37:27):
bones may have been taken and moved, but they can't
be the same thing. Nancy, Could I add something? Yeah?
I would like to play a clip now of the
voice stress analyzer that t. J. Ward has that he
put John's explanation through. They in this clip listened to
(37:51):
John explaining the crematory and the dog scenario. Let's hear
what their expert analysis of the truthfulness of that statement is. Yeah,
let's listen. We're going to do an analysis on John
and Gabriel's conversation and try to confirm some of the
information that was communicated in the last couple of days
(38:13):
to be true or not true. We're going to run
the audio of the perpetrator through the layered voice analysis
and see how it comes back as far as how
truthful he's being after changing his story. Okay, are you
keyed up on the segment we want to try. We're
ready to go. Okay, it wasn't. It wasn't in a
(38:35):
national park. So these two snippets together we have highly
stressed in truth. He's smart enough to know he's describing
himself committing a crime. When you're looking at these, you
can't look at any individual snippet by itself. You're looking
at what's around it. You're looking at the numbers, You're
looking at what's being said here. And I think he's
telling the truth here almost entirely. Uh, that it's not
(38:59):
in the national forest, and that he's uh, it's going
to be somewhere close to his aunt's house. My instincts
all along, just from watching the interview and listening what
the perpetrator had to say. It was my belief that
he was being truthful, that this new location was the
actual location. And now that we're able to confirm with
(39:22):
the voice analysis some of the information that we were
in question, well I feel good about it. Moving on
to the next relevant section. He's talking about at the
crematory and that how vander Sleut knew that he could
get the cremation done without um anybody looking in the box.
(39:42):
He knew he could get it done and paid him
under the table money. Vander Sleut knew the family and
again this shows up as inaccuracy. Again the table money
because it was fine. We see a high tension, bad feelings,
medium risk inaccuracies. There's definitely some thing more here to
explore that he's holding back about the crematory. Out to
(40:04):
Art Harris, Art Nancy, one of my questions has given
the the dark heart of anyone who has friends with
your in vander salute and thinking like a criminal and
a con man. What would keep him from perhaps taking
some of the bones and burying them somewhere else so
he could find them later in some sort of leverage
(40:25):
or shakedown deal. I haven't even thought that far, but
you know, Gabriel, with all the cases that I've tried
and literally in excess of ten thousand cases that I
have either investigated orchestrated guilty, please or tried. I tried.
(40:46):
When I'm confused, I go back to what I know. Okay, Gabriel,
this is what I know, and this is what I'm
hearing from you, and I really appreciate you being with
us today. Just wants you to know that I know this.
I know that I know Dave Holloway. I know that
he loved Natalie more than anything. This is not some
(41:09):
kind of a stunt for Dave Holloway. I don't believe that.
And Dave Holloway and this very well known US doctor
say it is human bones, and the doctor says it's
female Eastern European bones. So was that Natalie that went
(41:30):
through a crematory? And these are somebody else's bones? Maybe?
Are these Natalie's bones? Maybe? But I do know both
can't be true. And I believe Holloway and I believe
that US doctor that they've got bones, and you stated
it very clearly. Let me ask you this, What were
(41:52):
your impressions, Gabriel, of Dave Holloway, Because I like him
a lot. My impression is Dave Holloway. I seen him
broken man. I see a man that has suffered for years.
I've seen a man that is desperately um asking for questions.
He wants to find her. All he wants is closure.
And that day, that day I met him, I I
(42:15):
you know, I said, you know, I'm not gonna quit.
I'm not gonna quit. I Am going to find her.
And I know in my heart I did. I know
in my heart I did, because I have videos and
that recorded in my house before I went to a
Rubat that I knew I was gonna it was gonna happen.
(42:36):
And I know in my heart as her I don't
know why, I have a strong feeling because I didn't
come this far for nothing, and I want to give
Dave Holloway and Beth closure so they could bring their
baby home. There's a big old twist to this. Now,
the gentleman that was just saying about if there's more parts,
(42:58):
I cannot say. That's a big twist to this story.
Not even t J knows about this. I'm the only one.
The FBI is the one that knows. I'm not gonna
share information when people that treat me like trash. No,
I'm not. Now does the documentary people know. Uh, yes
(43:22):
they do. But I'm just gonna leave it at that. There.
This thing is full of twists and turns, and that
two liars try to get away with it. But if God,
if God is good, he's gonna give us what we want,
that is Natalie, And we could somehow pray to God
that they could charge these guys. And I'm afraid they're not.
(43:46):
I'm afraid they're gonna walk away free, all right, Harris
swaying Nancy. The fact that he just mentioned FBI gives
me a little hope because if you remember, your end
was also under indictment fortune aching down man Natalie's mother
for twenty dollars, which is hanging over his head should
he ever come back and be tried for murder. So
(44:09):
until now there has been no way to get the
FBI into a murder case because they have jurisdiction of
American citizens who die overseas. But if this suddenly has
gotten them back in to the case, that gives me hope.
This is what it boils down to. From me. As
I was listening to Gabriel talk about Dave Holloway calling
(44:32):
him a broken man, I was just thinking, as I
was listening to Gabriel talk. Everybody on the program right
now has had a severe loss, a severe loss to
think about losing your child. You know, I thought I
(44:54):
knew all about pain When my fiancee was murdered, we
in my dad passed away just recently. I did not
think I could put one ft in front of the other.
He had always been kind of my soul mate, my
dad Mac to think of one day you just simply
(45:17):
never see your child again, and you play over and
over in your mind that last time you saw them.
That is the hell that Dave, Holloway and Beth have
been living in all this time. And Gabriel, whatever the
(45:38):
results are, you have moved this case forward. And I'm
so grateful to you. Nancy Grace Crime Stories signing off
goodbye friends. One
Host
Nancy Grace
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