January 22, 2025 • 41 mins
Will a home invasion just miles from the Idaho murder site give Bryan Kohberger's defense team an alternative suspect in the deaths of four Moscow students? Many speculate that the similarities between the crimes may support a "some other dude did it" defense.
In the meantime, during closed ex-parte hearings, defense attorneys are discussing their motion to suppress evidence stemming from law enforcement’s use of a DNA match to justify several searches. Judge Steven Hippler and the defense will reconvene with prosecutors on Thursday for formal arguments regarding the evidence and other motions. While defense attorneys have requested that the entire hearing be open to the public, Judge Hippler will decide how much of the proceedings will remain closed. Many expect the hearing to extend through Friday.
Kohberger’s defense is contesting nearly all the evidence against him, claiming police violated his rights and improperly obtained search warrants. The defense argues that all data from Kohberger’s phone, including his Google, Apple, and Amazon accounts, should be excluded from evidence, along with anything seized from his parents’ Pennsylvania home, his Washington apartment, or his car. They allege that law enforcement intentionally withheld exculpatory information from a judge to secure the warrants and that the searches were overly broad.
Despite Judge Hippler’s ruling that the death penalty remains an option for Kohberger, his defense team may argue for its removal again. The defense now alleges that the prosecution failed to meet the deadline for disclosing its list of expert witnesses for the trial. Kohberger’s attorneys claim the state’s expert witness briefs are too broad and fail to specify the scope of the opinions those experts may present at trial. While the defense has not yet moved to sanction the prosecution, their filing includes a warning that they may seek to have the death penalty removed if issues with the witness list are not resolved.
Kohberger’s defense appears to be drawing from Lori Vallow Daybell’s trial, where Judge Steven Boyce removed the death penalty after prosecutors delayed turning over thousands of documents and hundreds of hours of jail phone calls until three weeks before trial. However, a key distinction between the cases is that Vallow insisted on a speedy trial, while Kohberger has waived that timeline
Joining Nancy Grace today:
- Brian Stewart – Attorney at Parker & McConkie, Gabby Petito’s Family Attorney; Instagram: parkermcconkie
- Dr. Bethany Marshall – Author: “Deal Breaker,” featured in hit show: “Paris in Love” on Peacock https://www.drbethanymarshall.com/ , Instagram & TikTok: drbethanymarshall, X: @DrBethanyLive
- Chris McDonough – Director at the Cold Case Foundation, Former Homicide Detective; Host of YouTube channel: “The Interview Room”
- Scott Eicher – A founding member of the FBI’s Cellular Analysis Survey Team (C.A.S.T); Historical Cellular Analysis Expert; Former FBI agent of 22 years; Former Police Officer and Homicide Detective with Norfolk Virginia Police Dept. having served 12 years; Currently with Precision Cellular Analysis handling Criminal, Defense and Civil case
- Dr. Kendall Crowns – Chief Medical Examiner Tarrant County (Ft Worth) and Lecturer: University of Texas Austin and Texas Christian University Medical School
- Sydney Sumner - CrimeOnline Investigative Reporter
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace Brian Coburger now pointing the
finger at another home invader with a ski mask and
a knife. Coburger back in court as Idaho brings back
the firing squad. I'm Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories.
(00:24):
Thank you for being with us.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Ranie's called and she was very frantic.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
And she was asking me if I had talked to Kaylee.
Katie's follows directly, voice found circling Maddie.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Nobody's answering. It's ring ringing, Rightie ringing.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
To return on the TV, and then we see live
news coverage and gives out on pat hero. Kaylee and
Maddie are both dead a quadrille homicide.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
Idaho lawmakers so moved by the slaughter of four beautiful
University Idaho students they are bringing back the firing squad
is a potential first choice of execution and death penalty cases.
This as we learn that Brian Coburger's defense is actually
(01:22):
going to try pointing the finger at another masked home
invader with a knife.
Speaker 4 (01:30):
Listen, Carl, where did you see this person?
Speaker 5 (01:32):
I was asleep and then I woke up me and
it was just me and Sadie home at the time,
and we both lived on in the basement and my
door was closed. I heard my door open, and I
looked over and someone was wearing a ski mask and
had a knife like this, ok, And so I like
kicked the out of their stomach and screamed super loud,
(01:55):
and they like flew back into my closet and then
ran out my door and up the stairs.
Speaker 6 (02:00):
That almost makesually think that somebody was specifically targeting that person,
you know what I mean, if they went to a
specific room and would know how to get into this place.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Wait a minute, did you just hear what this female
victim says? This was just a few months before the
deadly slang of four University Idaho's students, and the similarities
are overwhelming. Now, what's the defense going to do with this?
They're going to say, Oh, that guy, some of the
(02:34):
dude did it, and it's that guy, because look at
the similarities. Here straight out to Sidney Summer, joining us
Crime online dot Com investigative reporter, the victim, the female
victim with another female roommate, asleep with a multi tiered
in a multi tiered structure, living down in the basement,
(02:59):
door close. All of the things I'm emphasizing right now,
Sydney are direct similarities to the Idaho slags. I heard
my door open, like the Idaho victims did. I looked over.
Someone was wearing a ski mask like allegedly Coburger, wearing
(03:20):
a mask. He had a knife like Coburger allegedly had
a knife. I screamed. They flew back and ran out
my door and onto the stairs like in the Idaho case.
The officer. It makes me think someone specifically targeting that person,
like they went to a specific room and would know
(03:41):
how to get into this place. Sydney, the similarities are stunning.
Tell me about the home invasion the other home invasion fancy.
Speaker 7 (03:53):
You're absolutely correct, and this happened in the early morning
hours again, just like we saw over a year later.
Also in this area of Idaho and Washington. The houses
seem very similar. So these girls lived in a basement apartment.
It's kind of a weird unit. It's not like you
would just walk up to the front door and expect
(04:15):
a bedroom on the second floor. You know it's a basement.
So this video shows police searching this oddly built house.
You can see that basement door down there right there,
and there's windows all over this building in odd places.
It's extremely similar. For Nancy, it's.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
Striking and you know what you just said, said that
striking a cord another court in similarities. And I spent
much of my career looking at prior transactions and comparing
them to the case in Chief in order to prove
to a jury modus operadi, method of operation, course of conduct,
how it was affected in that case directly matches how
(04:56):
it's affected in the Case in Chief, frame of mind,
and other words. Scheme coming in the middle of the night,
armed with a knife onto female victims, multiple victims in
the same multichurch structure with a face covering. It sounds
just like Coburger. Joining me right now is Chris McDonough.
You know him well, Director Coldcase's Foundation, former homicide detective
(05:21):
and has visited the crime scene multiple times. You can
see him as the star of the interview room on YouTube.
Chris McDonough, this is what I'm telling you, man. I'm
telling you either A that is Brian Coburger in the
other home invasion, or B the defense is going to
(05:41):
use the other home invasion as their defense, claiming that's
the guy that did it not Brian Coberger. Hey, Chris McDonough,
I want you to listen to more of this pullman
PD body cam as the responding officer is talking to
the victim. Listen.
Speaker 5 (06:00):
Sure, that's the one thing I noticed. I couldn't say
for sure, but I don't think either really.
Speaker 7 (06:11):
Side.
Speaker 8 (06:12):
So you're saying, like a ski mask, any glasses?
Speaker 5 (06:17):
Okay, it was a burgundy ski mask, so I think
they were wearing gloves.
Speaker 8 (06:22):
So did you hear them say they.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
Didn't say a thing? They didn't say anything.
Speaker 8 (06:28):
Did they grunt or moan or exclaim or cry when
you kicked them?
Speaker 2 (06:34):
Just silence?
Speaker 1 (06:36):
Pay dirt, Chris McData. While right now Coburger is not
named as a POI suspect in any way in that
home invasion, the similarities, the similarities are overwhelming. Did you
hear that the purp not wearing glasses, wearing gloves? And significantly,
(06:59):
I'm when I have to shrink on this silent throughout
the attack, jump in, Chris.
Speaker 9 (07:05):
Yeah, there's no doubt, Nancy, that those similarities have got
to be investigative considerations, especially after you know the brutal
murder here of the four college students and if this
is what we would call a pretty incident to that
particular you know, murder, then you know you're going to
(07:26):
have to start with those victims and kind of re
engineer it from there and canvas the neighborhood and then
see if you can match the similarities to the suspect
in custody ie allegedly Brian Colberger.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
I mean, we've said it over and over and over
that could this possibly be Brian Coberger's first offense? Do
you go from zero to one twenty mph overnight? Many
people argue, no, is this the smoking gun? According to
police right now, they're not saying Coburger had anything to
(08:03):
do with this previous home invasion. Listen to more of
that body cam.
Speaker 8 (08:08):
So the windows come open, but there is no touch
marks on the glass, and like all the cobwebs are intact.
Speaker 7 (08:17):
Anything.
Speaker 8 (08:18):
Yeah, yeah, so maybe.
Speaker 7 (08:19):
They just unlocked it.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
Maybe they don't be easier to get out of that way, Yeah.
Speaker 7 (08:26):
Just go up the stairs and night. Yeah, I guarantee
you they were not expecting that.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
Okay, right there even more similarities. Did you hear that
there's no touch marks, All the cobwebs are intact. So
this person ends up going up the stairs, just as
in the Idaho Sleighs. As of right now, we don't
(08:53):
have any indication of any fingerprints or touch marks. And
there's more. Listen, I'm wondering why they didn't come in
the room.
Speaker 8 (09:00):
Because, yeah, so we were talking about that and may
so she thought you had a television.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
I did my teacher that I cad from outside your room,
So maybe.
Speaker 8 (09:14):
They might knew that. Between between the light and the sound,
they probably assumed that you were away.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
It was a week significant. You hear the victim talking saying,
I wonder why they didn't come into my room. My
room is closer. We had the same issue in the
Idaho Slighs, Chris McDonough, because you had uh Dylan Mortenson downstairs, remember,
and many people wonder, well, why didn't you go into
(09:42):
that room first? Same thinking. These two perps have the
same thought process going why didn't they go into that door?
And then also you hear the victim's roommates saying, I
was wide awake. I was just lying in bed. Did
he know I was awake? Clearly, the state believes that
(10:06):
Brian Coberger had been monitoring the victims' movements. Did he
know they had just ordered food, and that some of
them may be between a sleep and a wake in
that groggy state. It's a fingerprint ID Chris McDonough.
Speaker 9 (10:22):
Nancy, and I think, you know, one of the most
interesting similarities to this situation is obviously the fact that
the perpetrator had a knife, and that's a very personal
titled weapon that would be utilized. But there's going to
be another hurdle though, that they're going to have to overcome.
That's going to be obviously the physical description of the
(10:45):
suspect and the fact that the victim attacked the suspect
and he cowered and ran. Somebody who has the frame
of mind, you know, to commit a homicide straightforward would
have taken that as a control issue and he probably
would have overwhelmed that victim.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 8 (11:16):
Two.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
Doctor Bethany Marshall joining us, a renow psycho analyst out
of the LA jurisdiction, author of a deal Breaker. You
can see her now on Peacock, she said, doctor Bethany
Marshall dot com, doctor Bethany in your world. These similarities
are startling. And again police are not saying that coburger
affected this home invasion just a few miles away from
(11:38):
the University of Idaho slave a few months before the SLAGH.
But look at the similarities, doctor Bethany, and in your world,
I find it very significant that both perps remained silent. Again, Bethany,
there's only two choices, Bethany. Now you're coming at it
from your angle. I'm coming at it from mine. What
(11:59):
if anything is probative to me as I prepare a
case like this number one, either it is Coburger that
performed that home invasion, or it's not Coburger and the
defense is going to use it as one of their
chief defenses. Some other dude did it, and that's the dude.
(12:20):
What about both perps remaining silent?
Speaker 10 (12:23):
Nancy, serial killers practice for years before they work up
the nerve to commit a crime. Okay, So Cochburger's whole
academic career was a form of practicing. He took crime classes.
He was a you know, it's like a teacher's aid
in a crime class. He went to bars, he hit
(12:43):
on women. Serial killing is an obsession. So Coburger probably
thought about this four months years. It was an obsession.
He in his mind thought out what kind of a
house he wanted to enter, probably spent hours trying to
find victims. He liked certain personalities, certain relationship configurations within
(13:09):
the house. Perhaps in his fantasy life, he was going
to go to the second floor and both crimes, kill
two victims, and then come back to to the ones
who are more accessible so they could hear the screaming
of the other victims as an act of sadism. The silence,
I think is that he was preparing himself for the
(13:30):
crime in respect to becoming emboldened the first time the
purp ran away, if that was Coburger. The second time,
he was probably prepared to be kicked, so he got
his courage up to commit the crime in a second,
second location.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
I don't like he did a white color crime.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
This isn't a.
Speaker 11 (13:51):
Whole colored crime.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
This is people you work your.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
Whole life to get them to go to college and
then they get killed.
Speaker 4 (13:59):
Whether leave that night.
Speaker 11 (14:02):
This guy like he just like traded insider trading with
his own company stocks.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
It's not white Cole will another home invasion just a
few months before the four Beautiful University, Idaho students were
slaughtered in their own beds have anything to do with
the Coburger death penalty case. This as Idaho plans to
bring back the firing squad as a primary means of execution,
(14:33):
hopefully just in time for Coburger's conviction and sentencing. We'll see.
And what does Colt mom Lori Valow have to do
with Brian Coburger? Plenty, all of this with the backdrop
of Coburger's defense claiming the death penalty is inhumane because
(14:53):
it forces Coburger to wait on death row and worry. Okay,
we'll get to that, but first to this home invasion
that occurred just a few months before the quadruple slagh. Now,
look again at this bodycam video we obtainfle Pullman p D. Listen.
Speaker 5 (15:16):
Sure that's the one thing I noticed. I couldn't say
for sure, but I don't think either really side.
Speaker 8 (15:28):
So you're saying, like a ski mask in your grasses?
Speaker 5 (15:32):
Okay, sure it was a burgundy ski mask, so I
think they were wearing gloves.
Speaker 8 (15:36):
Yeah, So did you hear them say?
Speaker 1 (15:40):
They didn't say a thing? They didn't say anything.
Speaker 8 (15:44):
Did they grunt or moan or exclaim or cry when
you kicked them? Just silence?
Speaker 1 (15:50):
Silence? Joining me? Is Scott Iiker founding member of the
FBI Cellular Analysis Survey Team, Scott, thank you for being
with US police officer from her homicide to take dove
with Norfolk, Virginia PD. Scott. The likelihood that two perps
will enter a multi tiered structure with multiple female victims
(16:14):
inside around the same time of the night, a few
miles apart, a few months apart, with the same INMO
with a face mask, with a knife. What are the odds? Right?
I know you're not a statistician, so let me talk
to you about the fact that neither of these perps
that we know I've yet left behind fingerprints or really
(16:38):
any DNA other than what we know about on the
knife sheath. How likely is that? I like er, if
it's not the same person.
Speaker 4 (16:45):
I think it is the same person. I agree with
Betany that you know Cyria Tailers. I got to practice
their situations. This was an attempt, he got boiled by kicked,
and then all the similarities that you guys just talked about.
It really brings that as a detective and homicide detective
and an FBI agent, we look for those similarities between
(17:08):
crimes to connect them, and this is definitely one of
those that seems just like a prior attempt that was spoiled.
Thank God to.
Speaker 1 (17:18):
Doctor Kennel Crowns joining a Chief Medical Examiner Tyrant County.
That's Fort Worth Esteemed lecturer at the Burnett School of
Medicine at TCU. Doctor Crowns, thank you for being with us.
You know I have tried, investigated and investigated countless homicide.
I don't know how many. Usually knifing someone to death
(17:39):
is not the mode of death. It's not the ceod
cause of death. There, I would say more gunshot wounds
and more asphyxiations, more vehicular manslaughters. Knifing someone to death
I think is a more unique cood.
Speaker 12 (17:57):
What do you think, well, I would agree with Thatually,
what we see with homicides are gunshot wounds, specifically nine millimeters.
With stabbings, you have to get up close and personal.
It's usually a domestic or someone that knows the victim
or you know and has been discussed serial killers. Strangulations again, too,
(18:18):
are not as common as stab wounds. So you know,
when you look at the causes of death, gunshot wound
far out weighs.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
Are you saying asphyxiation is more or less common? Because
in my expert in my experience, knife attacks are less
common than asphyxiation. When you look at all of the homicides,
you've got bludgeoning, which by far beats out knifing, You've
(18:47):
got asphyxiation, which I believe beats out knifing, and of
course gunshot wounds as you let off with that by
far beats out knifings.
Speaker 12 (18:57):
So my personal experience, I've seen, of course the majority
of gunshovelans, but I've seen more stabbings than strangulations, because
strangulation you really got to get up in there and
to strangle them. So it's so a weapon as usually
trumps out using your bare hands. So I would say
stabbing is not as common, and a spree stabbing as
(19:17):
you're seeing in this type of situation is very uncommon
where they stab multiple individuals at the same time.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
Okay, I want to take that pathology and apply it
to the current case and the current similar transaction we're discussing,
which would be the previous home invasion. And again Coburger
not named as a POI or suspect in that case,
but either he did it and he is the similar
(19:43):
or he didn't do it. And the defense is going
to use it against the state. What I'm getting at,
doctor Kendall Crown's is the likelihood of a spree stabbing
where a goes into a multieer structure around the same
time of the night, a few miles apart, planning to
attack more than one female with a knife. I find
(20:04):
that highly coincidental.
Speaker 12 (20:06):
I agree with you, it's very odd, and it's I
think he got spooked and then moved on to the
next house that he had been casing, you know, you
kind of look at For example, BTK was another criminology student.
He had one of his stories as he was casing
a victim and something occurred and he got spooked. He
(20:27):
moved on and then waited and came back again. So
if it could be the similarities are very early similar.
He could have just gotten spooked by that first person.
Speaker 8 (20:37):
And moved on.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
Crime stories with Nancy Grace joining me is a veteran
trial lawyer, Brian Stewart Attorney Parker maconcle Brian, thank you
for being with us. Brian, Can we talk very quickly
about the introduction under the Constitution of what we call
(21:04):
similar transactions in this case, really a fingerprint crime. The
only difference is those two female victims didn't lose their lives.
Everything else is startlingly similar. What do you think, Well.
Speaker 11 (21:19):
It seems entirely, you know, speculative, what to whether or
not this person is Brian Kohlberger. But it's likely the
same person. But there's no question the defense would want
to use this to undermine the prosecution's case, saying that
there's someone else out there. But in my mind, it
(21:42):
shouldn't come in because it's speculative, and I think that
the prosecution is going to have a good argument to
keep it out.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
To Sidy Suner joining me, Crime online dot Com investigative reporter,
can we talk about the home invasion? Okay, how far
away was it from the quadruple murder scene?
Speaker 7 (22:03):
Nancy minutes, ten minutes. And another thing that I wanted
to mention, the victim in the home invasion was also
a waitress, so she was no longer a student, but
she was waitressing and still living with roommates who were
in college. I found that also really striking that some
of the Idaho college victims a year later waitresses at
(22:24):
a restaurant. So that's an interesting possibility. And as you
were talking through your theories. I came up with one
of my own.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
What if Brian.
Speaker 7 (22:32):
Koberger took inspiration from this? What if he did is
research and it's trying to pass as this original home
invader with a knife.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
You know, Sydney, do you remember when we were in
Idaho and we went to the Great Restaurant where at
least one of the victims, where others hung out there,
and we watched people coming in and now there's a
steady flow of college students, non college students, and we
watch and got that horrible eerie feeling that Coburger had
(23:05):
come in and out of the restaurant as he watched
the victims. And now you're telling me that in the
other home invasion the victim one of them was a waitress.
Speaker 7 (23:20):
That is absolutely correct. She worked at Zoey's in Pullman, Washington.
It's a cafe, so similar restaurant. Again, it's very striking.
I mean, Scott Iiker, don't you see where this is going.
The defense is going to win either.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
Way on this because they're going to say, ay, it's
not him number one, and that's the guy that did it.
And if Coburger did do the other home invasion. It
can't be brought in as a similar transaction unless it
can be proven he did the other home invasion. So
the state right now is hogtie on this.
Speaker 7 (24:00):
I agree.
Speaker 4 (24:01):
It sounds like because of the short time that home invasion,
you guy comes in, he kicks him, he falls down
and leaves, But he probably didn't leave like a knife
like he did in this in the quadruplehamicide. So what
evidence do they have to show that that prior incident
was was Coburg. That's going to cause a problem, I think,
(24:25):
and I think both ways. Hopefully it can't be brought
in from either side.
Speaker 11 (24:33):
The person who did did drun looked at one of
the victims and said, I'm here to help me. If
that's not malice, that's the most type of evil that
you could ever hear.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
It shouldn't be rewarded with the.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
Suit and a first cherka every time.
Speaker 4 (24:48):
That's why that's wild.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
And somehow Cale mom Laurie Valo rears her ugly head
in the middle of all of this. What does she
have to do with the Brian Coburger quadruple murder prosecution?
Here she is in court.
Speaker 13 (25:06):
Listen nation, So the defense we keep filing motions for
discovery since we don't know if it's some kind of
strategy of the state that they're holding back this actual
evidence of dispirit conspiracy and hopes that what the defendant
won't have time to prepare proper defense against the evidence
that comes forward at the last minute. This court has
(25:28):
denied every motion the defense has filed to acquire this evidence.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
Okay, wait a minute, what's she climbing a mental defect?
Did you hear her reeling off the law and the
facts she's representing her case in another murder related case.
We got that from our friends at Eastidaho News dot com. Yes,
somehow Calman Lauri Valo has insinuated herself into the Brian
(25:55):
Coburger case listen.
Speaker 14 (25:56):
Coberger's defense appears to be taking a page out of
Lorie valoed Dabell's trial, where Judge Stephen Boyce removed the
death penalty after prosecutors failed to turn over thousands of
documents and hundreds of hours of jail phone calls until
three weeks before the trial. But the key difference between
the cases that val day Bell insisted on a speedy trial,
while Cober has waived that quick timeline with more than
(26:19):
six months remaining until trial, Judge Hibler has plenty of
other remedies available before taking such a drastic measure.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
Straight out to Sydney Sumner Crime online dot Com investigative
reporter Sydney, what does call it, mom, Lori Valo have
to do with Brian Coburger.
Speaker 7 (26:34):
So, Nancy, What the defense is arguing in cober Eer's
case is that the state's expert witness list was not complete.
They're saying that it's too vague, it's overbroad, not everyone
is named. So they are threatening to try and get
this death penalty stricken again if that expert witness list
(26:55):
is not amended. So that's exactly what happened in Lori
Valo's case. The judge who saw this huge failure to
turn over evidence to the defense with only three weeks
away from trial, really had no choice but to employ
this extreme remedy of taking the death penalty off the table.
(27:16):
There was no way the defense could possibly sit.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
Through all of that evidence at the last second.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
Okay, Brian Stewart with me veteran trial lawyer, Brian, I
don't want to go deaf cone four on this get
too far in the weeds. But the problem and call
it mantlauriy Valo's case, she had a speedy a speedy
trial demand, and if the state didn't try it within
a certain amount of time, which varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction,
there would be a total acquittal. Repeat, if the state
(27:42):
didn't try it within a certain period of time, there
would be an outright acquittal. So the deal struck was
the judge took the DP death penalty off the table.
We don't have that problem here, but the defense is
trying it. They're saying, because the expert witness list is
not completely we don't have a trial for months and
months and months to go, that the DP should be
(28:04):
taken off the table. That's what they're doing right now.
Speaker 15 (28:07):
Agree to disagree, Well, in this situation, the constitutional protections
that we have are more important than any one case,
and so if the prosecution didn't turn over this information
in charge that they should have turned over, it's in
all of our best interests that evidence be excluded.
Speaker 11 (28:23):
Even if it damaged damages the prosecution's case in this situation, you.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
Know, speaking of the death building in this case, everybody
sit down for this. The latest defense argument. You may
need to lay down for this one. Listen to the
death penalty argument made by the defense.
Speaker 7 (28:41):
I don't believe that our constitution.
Speaker 16 (28:45):
Allows for us to move forward and make him sit
on death row for years and years and years.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
The way Idaho is doing it right now.
Speaker 7 (28:56):
Isn't really working.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
It's not a realistic option.
Speaker 16 (29:00):
I think to have him sit on death row and say,
Idaho's going to figure out how to kill you at
some point in the future in a way that isn't
cruel and unusual and in violation of your rights, I
just don't think that the constitutional protections allow that to happen.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
Really. Chris mcdona, former homicide to take the start of
the interview room. What is she saying? Well, if you
kill him now, I'm fine with the death penalty, but
if you make him wait, tick tick, that's inhumane. Am
I hearing her? Can she hear herself?
Speaker 9 (29:32):
Yeah? Can you believe it? Nancy? I mean, can you
picture the founding fathers, you know, shigning all the documents
that have made this country great? Thinking, you know, if
there's going to be a guy named Brian Kolberger who's
going to have to sit for quite some time, and
the state's going to have to figure it out. It's
just ludicrous, just a really gallow argument.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
I mean, Chris mcdona, I'm looking at my notes that
I took on Ann Taylor's argument. She's a really good lawyer.
I mean, she's grasping a straws here, but what can
she do? And my big night was ha ha, waiting
equals cruel unusual punishment under the Constitution. And again ha ha,
So I guess she's okay. If they kill them immediately,
that would be the argument. But that's not all. Listen
(30:16):
to more of Taylor's argument.
Speaker 16 (30:18):
We think that the court ought to strike the death
penalty in this case and not allow the case to
go forward as a death penalty case because Idaho does
not have a current means of executing anybody. When somebody
sits on death row and there's no real means of
executing them, that is dehumanizing to that person.
Speaker 17 (30:41):
That's similar say, there's no means under Idaho law. The
method of execution is lethal injection, and if unavailable, then
the firing squad. You rely significantly on the idea that
lethal objection injection is not available. Based upon the quote
unquote watched execution of mister Creech.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
Doctor Bethany Marshall, please help me. Okay, not in a
professional capacity, of course, but doctor Bethany, she is now saying,
Coburger is going to have to wait to find out
how he's going to be executed. What about the victims' families,
Just hold on just one moment. They know how their
(31:26):
daughters and son were murdered. They were knifed to death,
they were slaughtered like animals in a slaughterhouse. Okay, but
yet Coburger getting three hots and a cot paid for
by me and you, that's inhumane compared to what the victims'
families go through the rest of their life.
Speaker 10 (31:48):
Nancy Coldberger loves to wait. He's spent his whole life waiting,
his whole life waiting to become a serial killer. Waiting
is not a problem for him. And when you think
about the psychology of the serial killers, they are so
filled and full of sexually deviant, sadistic fantasies that often
(32:09):
there are long periods of time between actual slayings because
they are very satisfied with their fantasy life. In some ways,
this is like a dream come true for him. He
doesn't have to work, he doesn't have to support himself.
He can just fantasize all day long.
Speaker 7 (32:28):
This is not.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
Then you get us so much more delicately than I
would fantasizing what is going to do? Sit behind bars
and masturbate to the memory of what he did if
in fact he's proving guilty. I think that's what you're saying.
You know what, doctor Bethany, I appreciate your delicate nature,
(32:50):
but we are talking about their murder of four young idahosts.
You its brutally literally butchered like animals and Sidney so
i'mner or investigative reporter. Let me just clarify one thing.
The defense is whining about what all another killer Thomas
Creech went through before the DP. Bottom line, they couldn't
(33:11):
find a vein. I never had a nurse in the
hospital the whole time I was in there after delivery
that could find a vein. Okay, it happens all the time.
That's the problem. They couldn't find his vein.
Speaker 7 (33:25):
That is in fact what they are complaining about. Yep,
he must have been dehydrated that morning, just like so
many people are in the hospital on a day to
day basis, and that is their argument that lethal injection
is not available.
Speaker 14 (33:39):
Coberger's defense team has hired cell phone experts SIREE to
testify and support of Coberger's alibi. The former police officer
and founder of z X bases his analysis on the
pings that a cell phone sends to a nearby tower
using the software tracks, but many have questioned the reliability
have raised data. Many other experts say Trax's methodology is
not as in science, and Colorado judge has even banned
(34:03):
prosecutors from using the software in their cases.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
Scott Iiker joining US founder member FBI Cellular Analysis Survey Team,
we now know that cellular and digital data is a
big bone of contingent in the trial. What's happening, Scott.
Speaker 4 (34:20):
Well, we know that the police department, with the assistance
of the FBI and other law enforcement agencies, got data
from mister Colburger's phone. Not only did they get it
on the night of the Adrew Bahama side, but they
also got it prior to that time and afterwards, so
we can see that information. What they have found is
(34:43):
that on the night of the a Drew Bahama side,
he had turned his phone off. He turned it off
for a good amount of time. I think it was
for about two and a half hours. And what they
also did see is that he had left his house
in Pullman and gone so else but then he turned
his phone off while he's supposedly committing the crime, and
(35:07):
then on the way back home turned his phone back on.
We see this all the time in criminals that don't
want their phone to be tracked to this scene of
the crime. We did this in bank robbery cases. We'd
follow the guys days before where they go scout out
the bank, leaving their phones on, and then the day
of the crime turn it off, thinking that that wouldn't
(35:29):
show that they're there. But we could see that pattern
of life that's going to be helpful to the prosecution.
Speaker 1 (35:35):
And now the Amazon order of the knife we believe
is the murder weapon. More analysis reveals more evidence. Listen,
this is the search warrant. These ASIN numbers are basically
inventory control numbers for Amazon. This is the Amazon ASIN
(35:58):
that I put in. This is the product that came up.
And the other search warrants started to chase the receipts
to Amazon, to Walmart.
Speaker 9 (36:12):
For and the banks. They started pushing search warrants out
to the banks, and they were looking for a money
trail that purchased potentially a weapon like this.
Speaker 1 (36:24):
Okay, joining me, christ madonnad from the interview room, and
that was from the interview room on YouTube. You know,
Christma Donna, you and I talk a lot about what
one single piece of evidence can prove that it can
prove so many different things, not just that Coburger ordered
the murder weapon according to the state, but your analysis
reveals so much more evidence in a nutshell.
Speaker 9 (36:46):
What so, Nancy, that that could be gold. You know,
to your point right, that Amazon number just think of
it as like a ven number for a car. It's
a product number that every like three hundred and fifty
million products that go through Amazon have and those numbers
are unique to each of those products. So once they
(37:08):
discovered that knife that came up, then they're going to
chase the money on that, and that money trail in
of itself will be able. If you can get a
receipt on that, then that's going to give you time dates,
you know, those kinds of things, and then you can
really get into the head of Coburger at the time
(37:30):
he was making these purchases. So that's going to lead
into a whole new direction for the investigation.
Speaker 1 (37:37):
What kind direction.
Speaker 9 (37:38):
Well, it'll give you, you know, pre incident behavior, it'll
give you his thought process. It will also lead into,
you know, the type of you know, why he's purchasing
that particular knife. Is there a sexual motivation?
Speaker 5 (37:54):
Uh?
Speaker 8 (37:55):
Is there?
Speaker 5 (37:56):
You know?
Speaker 9 (37:56):
Going down those lines? So is it a fantasy that
he's buying the Schneische Remember that knight is almost a
symbol of a phallic symbol in relationship to this type
of attack.
Speaker 1 (38:13):
Because I'm not sure you're going to get that off
an Amazon order history, but I trust you.
Speaker 18 (38:18):
The defense is also moving to suppress Coburger's statements the
night of his arrest, which begs the question did the
accused quadruple murderer incriminate himself? Coberger's attorneys claim when Coburger
was held at gunpoint and had his hands zip tied,
he made statements to the officers surrounding him despite not
having been read his rights. The defense further once any
statements Coburger made in transport and without an attorney present
(38:41):
during interrogation at the Monroe County Correctional Facility stricken.
Speaker 1 (38:45):
The harder the defense fights a particular point, the more
damaging and probative it is for the state. Now we
are learning the defense is fighting tooth and nail to
keep statements out to Sydney Sumner and to get a reporter.
What statements they have not been revealed, but we see
they're arguing about statements that he made at the time
(39:09):
police showed up to the appearance Pocono's home, statements he
made in transit, and more so, in order to argue
we want these statements to be suppressed. Number one, the
statements have to be made, so there are statements, and
number two, they have to be something incriminating to the
point the defense is fighting to have them suppressed.
Speaker 7 (39:31):
Get it. You're absolutely correct, Nancy. So we have no
idea what Coberger said, but we do know that that
was a dynamic entry into the house. The entire family
was surrounded by officers, held at gunpoint, So this must
have been a very stressful situation. So is he begging
for mercy? Is he telling them he is surrendering? Is
(39:51):
he admitting some form of guilt just enough of a
nugget for someone to twist that in a way to
make it incriminals We don't know, but it will be
interesting to find out if.
Speaker 1 (40:04):
That evidence makes it into court. Yeah, and you know
Chris mcdonne joining me veteran homicide to take a start
of the interview room on YouTube. Chris, it doesn't have
to be I didn't do it. It could It could
be I was in Hawaii when that happened. It could
be I don't know anything about the slave of the
force students before the force students have even been mentioned.
It could be any number of things that may not
(40:27):
be an outright confession but indicate intimate knowledge of the murders.
Speaker 9 (40:33):
Yeah, and those spontaneous utterances like that are just beautiful
because you know that there's no pressure in relationship to
the subject, just kind of asking a question. Sometimes they're
even questions, right, Nancy, I mean, how many have your
dependents have asked the cops questions when they first shook
them up, like you know, anybody else arrested? Why why
(40:55):
you're arresting me? Those are those are those are great statements.
Speaker 1 (40:58):
You know, doctor Bethany Marshall. When people are trying to
lie and they don't have their statement ready, they can
say any number of things that are tails that are
telling not necessarily an outright confession.
Speaker 10 (41:11):
You know, Nancy, especially since he's thought so much about this.
There's a lot of information rolling around in that head
about the crimes, right, how much time he's spent stalking
the victims, what time the murder took.
Speaker 1 (41:23):
Place, how the bodies were left.
Speaker 10 (41:26):
I mean, the information that could come out of his
mouth is endless, and if his anxiety level is high,
he's not going to be able to think clearly about
what he knows that he shouldn't know.
Speaker 1 (41:39):
Nancy Grace, signing off Goodbye friend,
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace Brian Coburger now pointing the
finger at another home invader with a ski mask and
a knife. Coburger back in court as Idaho brings back
the firing squad. I'm Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories.
(00:24):
Thank you for being with us.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Ranie's called and she was very frantic.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
And she was asking me if I had talked to Kaylee.
Katie's follows directly, voice found circling Maddie.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Nobody's answering. It's ring ringing, Rightie ringing.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
To return on the TV, and then we see live
news coverage and gives out on pat hero. Kaylee and
Maddie are both dead a quadrille homicide.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
Idaho lawmakers so moved by the slaughter of four beautiful
University Idaho students they are bringing back the firing squad
is a potential first choice of execution and death penalty cases.
This as we learn that Brian Coburger's defense is actually
(01:22):
going to try pointing the finger at another masked home
invader with a knife.
Speaker 4 (01:30):
Listen, Carl, where did you see this person?
Speaker 5 (01:32):
I was asleep and then I woke up me and
it was just me and Sadie home at the time,
and we both lived on in the basement and my
door was closed. I heard my door open, and I
looked over and someone was wearing a ski mask and
had a knife like this, ok, And so I like
kicked the out of their stomach and screamed super loud,
(01:55):
and they like flew back into my closet and then
ran out my door and up the stairs.
Speaker 6 (02:00):
That almost makesually think that somebody was specifically targeting that person,
you know what I mean, if they went to a
specific room and would know how to get into this place.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Wait a minute, did you just hear what this female
victim says? This was just a few months before the
deadly slang of four University Idaho's students, and the similarities
are overwhelming. Now, what's the defense going to do with this?
They're going to say, Oh, that guy, some of the
(02:34):
dude did it, and it's that guy, because look at
the similarities. Here straight out to Sidney Summer, joining us
Crime online dot Com investigative reporter, the victim, the female
victim with another female roommate, asleep with a multi tiered
in a multi tiered structure, living down in the basement,
(02:59):
door close. All of the things I'm emphasizing right now,
Sydney are direct similarities to the Idaho slags. I heard
my door open, like the Idaho victims did. I looked over.
Someone was wearing a ski mask like allegedly Coburger, wearing
(03:20):
a mask. He had a knife like Coburger allegedly had
a knife. I screamed. They flew back and ran out
my door and onto the stairs like in the Idaho case.
The officer. It makes me think someone specifically targeting that person,
like they went to a specific room and would know
(03:41):
how to get into this place. Sydney, the similarities are stunning.
Tell me about the home invasion the other home invasion fancy.
Speaker 7 (03:53):
You're absolutely correct, and this happened in the early morning
hours again, just like we saw over a year later.
Also in this area of Idaho and Washington. The houses
seem very similar. So these girls lived in a basement apartment.
It's kind of a weird unit. It's not like you
would just walk up to the front door and expect
(04:15):
a bedroom on the second floor. You know it's a basement.
So this video shows police searching this oddly built house.
You can see that basement door down there right there,
and there's windows all over this building in odd places.
It's extremely similar. For Nancy, it's.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
Striking and you know what you just said, said that
striking a cord another court in similarities. And I spent
much of my career looking at prior transactions and comparing
them to the case in Chief in order to prove
to a jury modus operadi, method of operation, course of conduct,
how it was affected in that case directly matches how
(04:56):
it's affected in the Case in Chief, frame of mind,
and other words. Scheme coming in the middle of the night,
armed with a knife onto female victims, multiple victims in
the same multichurch structure with a face covering. It sounds
just like Coburger. Joining me right now is Chris McDonough.
You know him well, Director Coldcase's Foundation, former homicide detective
(05:21):
and has visited the crime scene multiple times. You can
see him as the star of the interview room on YouTube.
Chris McDonough, this is what I'm telling you, man. I'm
telling you either A that is Brian Coburger in the
other home invasion, or B the defense is going to
(05:41):
use the other home invasion as their defense, claiming that's
the guy that did it not Brian Coberger. Hey, Chris McDonough,
I want you to listen to more of this pullman
PD body cam as the responding officer is talking to
the victim. Listen.
Speaker 5 (06:00):
Sure, that's the one thing I noticed. I couldn't say
for sure, but I don't think either really.
Speaker 7 (06:11):
Side.
Speaker 8 (06:12):
So you're saying, like a ski mask, any glasses?
Speaker 5 (06:17):
Okay, it was a burgundy ski mask, so I think
they were wearing gloves.
Speaker 8 (06:22):
So did you hear them say they.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
Didn't say a thing? They didn't say anything.
Speaker 8 (06:28):
Did they grunt or moan or exclaim or cry when
you kicked them?
Speaker 2 (06:34):
Just silence?
Speaker 1 (06:36):
Pay dirt, Chris McData. While right now Coburger is not
named as a POI suspect in any way in that
home invasion, the similarities, the similarities are overwhelming. Did you
hear that the purp not wearing glasses, wearing gloves? And significantly,
(06:59):
I'm when I have to shrink on this silent throughout
the attack, jump in, Chris.
Speaker 9 (07:05):
Yeah, there's no doubt, Nancy, that those similarities have got
to be investigative considerations, especially after you know the brutal
murder here of the four college students and if this
is what we would call a pretty incident to that
particular you know, murder, then you know you're going to
(07:26):
have to start with those victims and kind of re
engineer it from there and canvas the neighborhood and then
see if you can match the similarities to the suspect
in custody ie allegedly Brian Colberger.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
I mean, we've said it over and over and over
that could this possibly be Brian Coberger's first offense? Do
you go from zero to one twenty mph overnight? Many
people argue, no, is this the smoking gun? According to
police right now, they're not saying Coburger had anything to
(08:03):
do with this previous home invasion. Listen to more of
that body cam.
Speaker 8 (08:08):
So the windows come open, but there is no touch
marks on the glass, and like all the cobwebs are intact.
Speaker 7 (08:17):
Anything.
Speaker 8 (08:18):
Yeah, yeah, so maybe.
Speaker 7 (08:19):
They just unlocked it.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
Maybe they don't be easier to get out of that way, Yeah.
Speaker 7 (08:26):
Just go up the stairs and night. Yeah, I guarantee
you they were not expecting that.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
Okay, right there even more similarities. Did you hear that
there's no touch marks, All the cobwebs are intact. So
this person ends up going up the stairs, just as
in the Idaho Sleighs. As of right now, we don't
(08:53):
have any indication of any fingerprints or touch marks. And
there's more. Listen, I'm wondering why they didn't come in
the room.
Speaker 8 (09:00):
Because, yeah, so we were talking about that and may
so she thought you had a television.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
I did my teacher that I cad from outside your room,
So maybe.
Speaker 8 (09:14):
They might knew that. Between between the light and the sound,
they probably assumed that you were away.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
It was a week significant. You hear the victim talking saying,
I wonder why they didn't come into my room. My
room is closer. We had the same issue in the
Idaho Slighs, Chris McDonough, because you had uh Dylan Mortenson downstairs, remember,
and many people wonder, well, why didn't you go into
(09:42):
that room first? Same thinking. These two perps have the
same thought process going why didn't they go into that door?
And then also you hear the victim's roommates saying, I
was wide awake. I was just lying in bed. Did
he know I was awake? Clearly, the state believes that
(10:06):
Brian Coberger had been monitoring the victims' movements. Did he
know they had just ordered food, and that some of
them may be between a sleep and a wake in
that groggy state. It's a fingerprint ID Chris McDonough.
Speaker 9 (10:22):
Nancy, and I think, you know, one of the most
interesting similarities to this situation is obviously the fact that
the perpetrator had a knife, and that's a very personal
titled weapon that would be utilized. But there's going to
be another hurdle though, that they're going to have to overcome.
That's going to be obviously the physical description of the
(10:45):
suspect and the fact that the victim attacked the suspect
and he cowered and ran. Somebody who has the frame
of mind, you know, to commit a homicide straightforward would
have taken that as a control issue and he probably
would have overwhelmed that victim.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 8 (11:16):
Two.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
Doctor Bethany Marshall joining us, a renow psycho analyst out
of the LA jurisdiction, author of a deal Breaker. You
can see her now on Peacock, she said, doctor Bethany
Marshall dot com, doctor Bethany in your world. These similarities
are startling. And again police are not saying that coburger
affected this home invasion just a few miles away from
(11:38):
the University of Idaho slave a few months before the SLAGH.
But look at the similarities, doctor Bethany, and in your world,
I find it very significant that both perps remained silent. Again, Bethany,
there's only two choices, Bethany. Now you're coming at it
from your angle. I'm coming at it from mine. What
(11:59):
if anything is probative to me as I prepare a
case like this number one, either it is Coburger that
performed that home invasion, or it's not Coburger and the
defense is going to use it as one of their
chief defenses. Some other dude did it, and that's the dude.
(12:20):
What about both perps remaining silent?
Speaker 10 (12:23):
Nancy, serial killers practice for years before they work up
the nerve to commit a crime. Okay, So Cochburger's whole
academic career was a form of practicing. He took crime classes.
He was a you know, it's like a teacher's aid
in a crime class. He went to bars, he hit
(12:43):
on women. Serial killing is an obsession. So Coburger probably
thought about this four months years. It was an obsession.
He in his mind thought out what kind of a
house he wanted to enter, probably spent hours trying to
find victims. He liked certain personalities, certain relationship configurations within
(13:09):
the house. Perhaps in his fantasy life, he was going
to go to the second floor and both crimes, kill
two victims, and then come back to to the ones
who are more accessible so they could hear the screaming
of the other victims as an act of sadism. The silence,
I think is that he was preparing himself for the
(13:30):
crime in respect to becoming emboldened the first time the
purp ran away, if that was Coburger. The second time,
he was probably prepared to be kicked, so he got
his courage up to commit the crime in a second,
second location.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
I don't like he did a white color crime.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
This isn't a.
Speaker 11 (13:51):
Whole colored crime.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
This is people you work your.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
Whole life to get them to go to college and
then they get killed.
Speaker 4 (13:59):
Whether leave that night.
Speaker 11 (14:02):
This guy like he just like traded insider trading with
his own company stocks.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
It's not white Cole will another home invasion just a
few months before the four Beautiful University, Idaho students were
slaughtered in their own beds have anything to do with
the Coburger death penalty case. This as Idaho plans to
bring back the firing squad as a primary means of execution,
(14:33):
hopefully just in time for Coburger's conviction and sentencing. We'll see.
And what does Colt mom Lori Valow have to do
with Brian Coburger? Plenty, all of this with the backdrop
of Coburger's defense claiming the death penalty is inhumane because
(14:53):
it forces Coburger to wait on death row and worry. Okay,
we'll get to that, but first to this home invasion
that occurred just a few months before the quadruple slagh. Now,
look again at this bodycam video we obtainfle Pullman p D. Listen.
Speaker 5 (15:16):
Sure that's the one thing I noticed. I couldn't say
for sure, but I don't think either really side.
Speaker 8 (15:28):
So you're saying, like a ski mask in your grasses?
Speaker 5 (15:32):
Okay, sure it was a burgundy ski mask, so I
think they were wearing gloves.
Speaker 8 (15:36):
Yeah, So did you hear them say?
Speaker 1 (15:40):
They didn't say a thing? They didn't say anything.
Speaker 8 (15:44):
Did they grunt or moan or exclaim or cry when
you kicked them? Just silence?
Speaker 1 (15:50):
Silence? Joining me? Is Scott Iiker founding member of the
FBI Cellular Analysis Survey Team, Scott, thank you for being
with US police officer from her homicide to take dove
with Norfolk, Virginia PD. Scott. The likelihood that two perps
will enter a multi tiered structure with multiple female victims
(16:14):
inside around the same time of the night, a few
miles apart, a few months apart, with the same INMO
with a face mask, with a knife. What are the odds? Right?
I know you're not a statistician, so let me talk
to you about the fact that neither of these perps
that we know I've yet left behind fingerprints or really
(16:38):
any DNA other than what we know about on the
knife sheath. How likely is that? I like er, if
it's not the same person.
Speaker 4 (16:45):
I think it is the same person. I agree with
Betany that you know Cyria Tailers. I got to practice
their situations. This was an attempt, he got boiled by kicked,
and then all the similarities that you guys just talked about.
It really brings that as a detective and homicide detective
and an FBI agent, we look for those similarities between
(17:08):
crimes to connect them, and this is definitely one of
those that seems just like a prior attempt that was spoiled.
Thank God to.
Speaker 1 (17:18):
Doctor Kennel Crowns joining a Chief Medical Examiner Tyrant County.
That's Fort Worth Esteemed lecturer at the Burnett School of
Medicine at TCU. Doctor Crowns, thank you for being with us.
You know I have tried, investigated and investigated countless homicide.
I don't know how many. Usually knifing someone to death
(17:39):
is not the mode of death. It's not the ceod
cause of death. There, I would say more gunshot wounds
and more asphyxiations, more vehicular manslaughters. Knifing someone to death
I think is a more unique cood.
Speaker 12 (17:57):
What do you think, well, I would agree with Thatually,
what we see with homicides are gunshot wounds, specifically nine millimeters.
With stabbings, you have to get up close and personal.
It's usually a domestic or someone that knows the victim
or you know and has been discussed serial killers. Strangulations again, too,
(18:18):
are not as common as stab wounds. So you know,
when you look at the causes of death, gunshot wound
far out weighs.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
Are you saying asphyxiation is more or less common? Because
in my expert in my experience, knife attacks are less
common than asphyxiation. When you look at all of the homicides,
you've got bludgeoning, which by far beats out knifing, You've
(18:47):
got asphyxiation, which I believe beats out knifing, and of
course gunshot wounds as you let off with that by
far beats out knifings.
Speaker 12 (18:57):
So my personal experience, I've seen, of course the majority
of gunshovelans, but I've seen more stabbings than strangulations, because
strangulation you really got to get up in there and
to strangle them. So it's so a weapon as usually
trumps out using your bare hands. So I would say
stabbing is not as common, and a spree stabbing as
(19:17):
you're seeing in this type of situation is very uncommon
where they stab multiple individuals at the same time.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
Okay, I want to take that pathology and apply it
to the current case and the current similar transaction we're discussing,
which would be the previous home invasion. And again Coburger
not named as a POI or suspect in that case,
but either he did it and he is the similar
(19:43):
or he didn't do it. And the defense is going
to use it against the state. What I'm getting at,
doctor Kendall Crown's is the likelihood of a spree stabbing
where a goes into a multieer structure around the same
time of the night, a few miles apart, planning to
attack more than one female with a knife. I find
(20:04):
that highly coincidental.
Speaker 12 (20:06):
I agree with you, it's very odd, and it's I
think he got spooked and then moved on to the
next house that he had been casing, you know, you
kind of look at For example, BTK was another criminology student.
He had one of his stories as he was casing
a victim and something occurred and he got spooked. He
(20:27):
moved on and then waited and came back again. So
if it could be the similarities are very early similar.
He could have just gotten spooked by that first person.
Speaker 8 (20:37):
And moved on.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
Crime stories with Nancy Grace joining me is a veteran
trial lawyer, Brian Stewart Attorney Parker maconcle Brian, thank you
for being with us. Brian, Can we talk very quickly
about the introduction under the Constitution of what we call
(21:04):
similar transactions in this case, really a fingerprint crime. The
only difference is those two female victims didn't lose their lives.
Everything else is startlingly similar. What do you think, Well.
Speaker 11 (21:19):
It seems entirely, you know, speculative, what to whether or
not this person is Brian Kohlberger. But it's likely the
same person. But there's no question the defense would want
to use this to undermine the prosecution's case, saying that
there's someone else out there. But in my mind, it
(21:42):
shouldn't come in because it's speculative, and I think that
the prosecution is going to have a good argument to
keep it out.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
To Sidy Suner joining me, Crime online dot Com investigative reporter,
can we talk about the home invasion? Okay, how far
away was it from the quadruple murder scene?
Speaker 7 (22:03):
Nancy minutes, ten minutes. And another thing that I wanted
to mention, the victim in the home invasion was also
a waitress, so she was no longer a student, but
she was waitressing and still living with roommates who were
in college. I found that also really striking that some
of the Idaho college victims a year later waitresses at
(22:24):
a restaurant. So that's an interesting possibility. And as you
were talking through your theories. I came up with one
of my own.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
What if Brian.
Speaker 7 (22:32):
Koberger took inspiration from this? What if he did is
research and it's trying to pass as this original home
invader with a knife.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
You know, Sydney, do you remember when we were in
Idaho and we went to the Great Restaurant where at
least one of the victims, where others hung out there,
and we watched people coming in and now there's a
steady flow of college students, non college students, and we
watch and got that horrible eerie feeling that Coburger had
(23:05):
come in and out of the restaurant as he watched
the victims. And now you're telling me that in the
other home invasion the victim one of them was a waitress.
Speaker 7 (23:20):
That is absolutely correct. She worked at Zoey's in Pullman, Washington.
It's a cafe, so similar restaurant. Again, it's very striking.
I mean, Scott Iiker, don't you see where this is going.
The defense is going to win either.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
Way on this because they're going to say, ay, it's
not him number one, and that's the guy that did it.
And if Coburger did do the other home invasion. It
can't be brought in as a similar transaction unless it
can be proven he did the other home invasion. So
the state right now is hogtie on this.
Speaker 7 (24:00):
I agree.
Speaker 4 (24:01):
It sounds like because of the short time that home invasion,
you guy comes in, he kicks him, he falls down
and leaves, But he probably didn't leave like a knife
like he did in this in the quadruplehamicide. So what
evidence do they have to show that that prior incident
was was Coburg. That's going to cause a problem, I think,
(24:25):
and I think both ways. Hopefully it can't be brought
in from either side.
Speaker 11 (24:33):
The person who did did drun looked at one of
the victims and said, I'm here to help me. If
that's not malice, that's the most type of evil that
you could ever hear.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
It shouldn't be rewarded with the.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
Suit and a first cherka every time.
Speaker 4 (24:48):
That's why that's wild.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
And somehow Cale mom Laurie Valo rears her ugly head
in the middle of all of this. What does she
have to do with the Brian Coburger quadruple murder prosecution?
Here she is in court.
Speaker 13 (25:06):
Listen nation, So the defense we keep filing motions for
discovery since we don't know if it's some kind of
strategy of the state that they're holding back this actual
evidence of dispirit conspiracy and hopes that what the defendant
won't have time to prepare proper defense against the evidence
that comes forward at the last minute. This court has
(25:28):
denied every motion the defense has filed to acquire this evidence.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
Okay, wait a minute, what's she climbing a mental defect?
Did you hear her reeling off the law and the
facts she's representing her case in another murder related case.
We got that from our friends at Eastidaho News dot com. Yes,
somehow Calman Lauri Valo has insinuated herself into the Brian
(25:55):
Coburger case listen.
Speaker 14 (25:56):
Coberger's defense appears to be taking a page out of
Lorie valoed Dabell's trial, where Judge Stephen Boyce removed the
death penalty after prosecutors failed to turn over thousands of
documents and hundreds of hours of jail phone calls until
three weeks before the trial. But the key difference between
the cases that val day Bell insisted on a speedy trial,
while Cober has waived that quick timeline with more than
(26:19):
six months remaining until trial, Judge Hibler has plenty of
other remedies available before taking such a drastic measure.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
Straight out to Sydney Sumner Crime online dot Com investigative
reporter Sydney, what does call it, mom, Lori Valo have
to do with Brian Coburger.
Speaker 7 (26:34):
So, Nancy, What the defense is arguing in cober Eer's
case is that the state's expert witness list was not complete.
They're saying that it's too vague, it's overbroad, not everyone
is named. So they are threatening to try and get
this death penalty stricken again if that expert witness list
(26:55):
is not amended. So that's exactly what happened in Lori
Valo's case. The judge who saw this huge failure to
turn over evidence to the defense with only three weeks
away from trial, really had no choice but to employ
this extreme remedy of taking the death penalty off the table.
(27:16):
There was no way the defense could possibly sit.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
Through all of that evidence at the last second.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
Okay, Brian Stewart with me veteran trial lawyer, Brian, I
don't want to go deaf cone four on this get
too far in the weeds. But the problem and call
it mantlauriy Valo's case, she had a speedy a speedy
trial demand, and if the state didn't try it within
a certain amount of time, which varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction,
there would be a total acquittal. Repeat, if the state
(27:42):
didn't try it within a certain period of time, there
would be an outright acquittal. So the deal struck was
the judge took the DP death penalty off the table.
We don't have that problem here, but the defense is
trying it. They're saying, because the expert witness list is
not completely we don't have a trial for months and
months and months to go, that the DP should be
(28:04):
taken off the table. That's what they're doing right now.
Speaker 15 (28:07):
Agree to disagree, Well, in this situation, the constitutional protections
that we have are more important than any one case,
and so if the prosecution didn't turn over this information
in charge that they should have turned over, it's in
all of our best interests that evidence be excluded.
Speaker 11 (28:23):
Even if it damaged damages the prosecution's case in this situation, you.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
Know, speaking of the death building in this case, everybody
sit down for this. The latest defense argument. You may
need to lay down for this one. Listen to the
death penalty argument made by the defense.
Speaker 7 (28:41):
I don't believe that our constitution.
Speaker 16 (28:45):
Allows for us to move forward and make him sit
on death row for years and years and years.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
The way Idaho is doing it right now.
Speaker 7 (28:56):
Isn't really working.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
It's not a realistic option.
Speaker 16 (29:00):
I think to have him sit on death row and say,
Idaho's going to figure out how to kill you at
some point in the future in a way that isn't
cruel and unusual and in violation of your rights, I
just don't think that the constitutional protections allow that to happen.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
Really. Chris mcdona, former homicide to take the start of
the interview room. What is she saying? Well, if you
kill him now, I'm fine with the death penalty, but
if you make him wait, tick tick, that's inhumane. Am
I hearing her? Can she hear herself?
Speaker 9 (29:32):
Yeah? Can you believe it? Nancy? I mean, can you
picture the founding fathers, you know, shigning all the documents
that have made this country great? Thinking, you know, if
there's going to be a guy named Brian Kolberger who's
going to have to sit for quite some time, and
the state's going to have to figure it out. It's
just ludicrous, just a really gallow argument.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
I mean, Chris mcdona, I'm looking at my notes that
I took on Ann Taylor's argument. She's a really good lawyer.
I mean, she's grasping a straws here, but what can
she do? And my big night was ha ha, waiting
equals cruel unusual punishment under the Constitution. And again ha ha,
So I guess she's okay. If they kill them immediately,
that would be the argument. But that's not all. Listen
(30:16):
to more of Taylor's argument.
Speaker 16 (30:18):
We think that the court ought to strike the death
penalty in this case and not allow the case to
go forward as a death penalty case because Idaho does
not have a current means of executing anybody. When somebody
sits on death row and there's no real means of
executing them, that is dehumanizing to that person.
Speaker 17 (30:41):
That's similar say, there's no means under Idaho law. The
method of execution is lethal injection, and if unavailable, then
the firing squad. You rely significantly on the idea that
lethal objection injection is not available. Based upon the quote
unquote watched execution of mister Creech.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
Doctor Bethany Marshall, please help me. Okay, not in a
professional capacity, of course, but doctor Bethany, she is now saying,
Coburger is going to have to wait to find out
how he's going to be executed. What about the victims' families,
Just hold on just one moment. They know how their
(31:26):
daughters and son were murdered. They were knifed to death,
they were slaughtered like animals in a slaughterhouse. Okay, but
yet Coburger getting three hots and a cot paid for
by me and you, that's inhumane compared to what the victims'
families go through the rest of their life.
Speaker 10 (31:48):
Nancy Coldberger loves to wait. He's spent his whole life waiting,
his whole life waiting to become a serial killer. Waiting
is not a problem for him. And when you think
about the psychology of the serial killers, they are so
filled and full of sexually deviant, sadistic fantasies that often
(32:09):
there are long periods of time between actual slayings because
they are very satisfied with their fantasy life. In some ways,
this is like a dream come true for him. He
doesn't have to work, he doesn't have to support himself.
He can just fantasize all day long.
Speaker 7 (32:28):
This is not.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
Then you get us so much more delicately than I
would fantasizing what is going to do? Sit behind bars
and masturbate to the memory of what he did if
in fact he's proving guilty. I think that's what you're saying.
You know what, doctor Bethany, I appreciate your delicate nature,
(32:50):
but we are talking about their murder of four young idahosts.
You its brutally literally butchered like animals and Sidney so
i'mner or investigative reporter. Let me just clarify one thing.
The defense is whining about what all another killer Thomas
Creech went through before the DP. Bottom line, they couldn't
(33:11):
find a vein. I never had a nurse in the
hospital the whole time I was in there after delivery
that could find a vein. Okay, it happens all the time.
That's the problem. They couldn't find his vein.
Speaker 7 (33:25):
That is in fact what they are complaining about. Yep,
he must have been dehydrated that morning, just like so
many people are in the hospital on a day to
day basis, and that is their argument that lethal injection
is not available.
Speaker 14 (33:39):
Coberger's defense team has hired cell phone experts SIREE to
testify and support of Coberger's alibi. The former police officer
and founder of z X bases his analysis on the
pings that a cell phone sends to a nearby tower
using the software tracks, but many have questioned the reliability
have raised data. Many other experts say Trax's methodology is
not as in science, and Colorado judge has even banned
(34:03):
prosecutors from using the software in their cases.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
Scott Iiker joining US founder member FBI Cellular Analysis Survey Team,
we now know that cellular and digital data is a
big bone of contingent in the trial. What's happening, Scott.
Speaker 4 (34:20):
Well, we know that the police department, with the assistance
of the FBI and other law enforcement agencies, got data
from mister Colburger's phone. Not only did they get it
on the night of the Adrew Bahama side, but they
also got it prior to that time and afterwards, so
we can see that information. What they have found is
(34:43):
that on the night of the a Drew Bahama side,
he had turned his phone off. He turned it off
for a good amount of time. I think it was
for about two and a half hours. And what they
also did see is that he had left his house
in Pullman and gone so else but then he turned
his phone off while he's supposedly committing the crime, and
(35:07):
then on the way back home turned his phone back on.
We see this all the time in criminals that don't
want their phone to be tracked to this scene of
the crime. We did this in bank robbery cases. We'd
follow the guys days before where they go scout out
the bank, leaving their phones on, and then the day
of the crime turn it off, thinking that that wouldn't
(35:29):
show that they're there. But we could see that pattern
of life that's going to be helpful to the prosecution.
Speaker 1 (35:35):
And now the Amazon order of the knife we believe
is the murder weapon. More analysis reveals more evidence. Listen,
this is the search warrant. These ASIN numbers are basically
inventory control numbers for Amazon. This is the Amazon ASIN
(35:58):
that I put in. This is the product that came up.
And the other search warrants started to chase the receipts
to Amazon, to Walmart.
Speaker 9 (36:12):
For and the banks. They started pushing search warrants out
to the banks, and they were looking for a money
trail that purchased potentially a weapon like this.
Speaker 1 (36:24):
Okay, joining me, christ madonnad from the interview room, and
that was from the interview room on YouTube. You know,
Christma Donna, you and I talk a lot about what
one single piece of evidence can prove that it can
prove so many different things, not just that Coburger ordered
the murder weapon according to the state, but your analysis
reveals so much more evidence in a nutshell.
Speaker 9 (36:46):
What so, Nancy, that that could be gold. You know,
to your point right, that Amazon number just think of
it as like a ven number for a car. It's
a product number that every like three hundred and fifty
million products that go through Amazon have and those numbers
are unique to each of those products. So once they
(37:08):
discovered that knife that came up, then they're going to
chase the money on that, and that money trail in
of itself will be able. If you can get a
receipt on that, then that's going to give you time dates,
you know, those kinds of things, and then you can
really get into the head of Coburger at the time
(37:30):
he was making these purchases. So that's going to lead
into a whole new direction for the investigation.
Speaker 1 (37:37):
What kind direction.
Speaker 9 (37:38):
Well, it'll give you, you know, pre incident behavior, it'll
give you his thought process. It will also lead into,
you know, the type of you know, why he's purchasing
that particular knife. Is there a sexual motivation?
Speaker 5 (37:54):
Uh?
Speaker 8 (37:55):
Is there?
Speaker 5 (37:56):
You know?
Speaker 9 (37:56):
Going down those lines? So is it a fantasy that
he's buying the Schneische Remember that knight is almost a
symbol of a phallic symbol in relationship to this type
of attack.
Speaker 1 (38:13):
Because I'm not sure you're going to get that off
an Amazon order history, but I trust you.
Speaker 18 (38:18):
The defense is also moving to suppress Coburger's statements the
night of his arrest, which begs the question did the
accused quadruple murderer incriminate himself? Coberger's attorneys claim when Coburger
was held at gunpoint and had his hands zip tied,
he made statements to the officers surrounding him despite not
having been read his rights. The defense further once any
statements Coburger made in transport and without an attorney present
(38:41):
during interrogation at the Monroe County Correctional Facility stricken.
Speaker 1 (38:45):
The harder the defense fights a particular point, the more
damaging and probative it is for the state. Now we
are learning the defense is fighting tooth and nail to
keep statements out to Sydney Sumner and to get a reporter.
What statements they have not been revealed, but we see
they're arguing about statements that he made at the time
(39:09):
police showed up to the appearance Pocono's home, statements he
made in transit, and more so, in order to argue
we want these statements to be suppressed. Number one, the
statements have to be made, so there are statements, and
number two, they have to be something incriminating to the
point the defense is fighting to have them suppressed.
Speaker 7 (39:31):
Get it. You're absolutely correct, Nancy. So we have no
idea what Coberger said, but we do know that that
was a dynamic entry into the house. The entire family
was surrounded by officers, held at gunpoint, So this must
have been a very stressful situation. So is he begging
for mercy? Is he telling them he is surrendering? Is
(39:51):
he admitting some form of guilt just enough of a
nugget for someone to twist that in a way to
make it incriminals We don't know, but it will be
interesting to find out if.
Speaker 1 (40:04):
That evidence makes it into court. Yeah, and you know
Chris mcdonne joining me veteran homicide to take a start
of the interview room on YouTube. Chris, it doesn't have
to be I didn't do it. It could It could
be I was in Hawaii when that happened. It could
be I don't know anything about the slave of the
force students before the force students have even been mentioned.
It could be any number of things that may not
(40:27):
be an outright confession but indicate intimate knowledge of the murders.
Speaker 9 (40:33):
Yeah, and those spontaneous utterances like that are just beautiful
because you know that there's no pressure in relationship to
the subject, just kind of asking a question. Sometimes they're
even questions, right, Nancy, I mean, how many have your
dependents have asked the cops questions when they first shook
them up, like you know, anybody else arrested? Why why
(40:55):
you're arresting me? Those are those are those are great statements.
Speaker 1 (40:58):
You know, doctor Bethany Marshall. When people are trying to
lie and they don't have their statement ready, they can
say any number of things that are tails that are
telling not necessarily an outright confession.
Speaker 10 (41:11):
You know, Nancy, especially since he's thought so much about this.
There's a lot of information rolling around in that head
about the crimes, right, how much time he's spent stalking
the victims, what time the murder took.
Speaker 1 (41:23):
Place, how the bodies were left.
Speaker 10 (41:26):
I mean, the information that could come out of his
mouth is endless, and if his anxiety level is high,
he's not going to be able to think clearly about
what he knows that he shouldn't know.
Speaker 1 (41:39):
Nancy Grace, signing off Goodbye friend,
Host
Nancy Grace
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