*New Kohberger Evidence Reveals What Idaho Roommates Saw the Night of the Murders
According to court documents, one of the surviving roommates, identified as "D.M."—referring to Dylan Mortensen—saw one of the victims lying on the floor hours before calling 911.
On the night of the killings, around 4 a.m., D.M. saw a man dressed in all black wearing a ski mask. She called and texted her roommates but only received a response from "B.F."—identified in the documents as Bethany Funke—who told her to run into her bedroom. As Mortensen ran toward Funke’s room, she allegedly saw Xana Kernodle lying on the floor of her bedroom, with her head near the wall and her feet pointing toward the door. The two survivors exchanged more texts throughout the night.
Bryan Kohberger is accused of killing University of Idaho students Madison Mogen, Kaylee Goncalves, Xana Kernodle, and Ethan Chapin at an off-campus home in Moscow, Idaho, on November 13, 2022.
Joining Nancy Grace today:
- Howard Blum - Author: "When The Night Comes Falling, A Requiem for The Idaho Student Murders;" INSTA: howard_blum_author TW/X: howardblum
- Joshua Ritter - Criminal Defense Attorney, Former Prosecutor, Host of Courtroom Confidential on YouTube; X, Instagram & TikTok: @joshuaritteresq, YouTube: CRConfidential
- Dr. Bethany Marshall - Psychoanalyst, Author of"Deal Breaker: When to work on a relationship and when to walk away;” Also featured in hit show: "Paris in Love" on Peacock; Instagram & TikTok: drbethanymarshall, X: @DrBethanyLive
- Chris McDonough - Director At the Cold Case Foundation, Former Homicide Detective [worked over 300 Homicides in 25 year career], Trained the First Native American Homicide Task Force; Host of YouTube channel, "The Interview Room"
- Joseph Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author of "Blood Beneath My Feet," and Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan;" X @JoScottForensic
- Scott Eicher - A Founding Member of the FBI’s Cellular Analysis Survey Team (C.A.S.T); Historical Cellular Analysis Expert; Former FBI agent of 22 years; Former Police Officer and Homicide Detective with Norfolk, Virginia, Police Dept. having served 12 years; Has worked several missing persons cases. Currently with Precision Cellular Analysis handling Criminal, Defense and Civil Case
- Sydney Sumner - CrimeOnline Investigative Reporter
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
A Brian Coberg bombshell. Did a survivor roommate actually see
her roommate Xana lying dead on Xana's bedroom floor and
spots the masked intruder wearing all black and tonight motive revealed?
(00:28):
And Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. I want to
thank you for being with us.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
On location of your emergency.
Speaker 4 (00:44):
Emergency one one.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Twos did one of these surviving young women, a young girl,
actually see Xanna Kunodle's dead body lying on her bedroom floor,
prone mistaking it for alcohol consumption, then spots the masked
(01:08):
intruder that the state says was none other than PhD
student Brian Cooburger but also tonight, did two of the
roommates nearly collide with the killer?
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Listen?
Speaker 4 (01:24):
Xana Cernodle and Ethan Chapin heads straight to Zanna's room
when they get in from a Sigma Kay party at
one forty five, but Kaylee gonzambez In, Madison Mogan chat
with Dylan Mortenson and Bethany funking Kaylee's room when they
arrive about twenty minutes later. The smell of Kaylee and
Madison's grub truck snacks make Bethany and Dylan debate going
back out for their own two ten am, Dylan takes
(01:44):
a friend to see if they're willing to give them
a ride, but getting no reply, the girls decide to
head to bed and say the good nights.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Straight out to Sidney Sumner, a Crime Stories investigative reporter, Sydney,
they really wanted to go back out and get something
to eat, finally opting for just let's order.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Some door dash. It's like four o'clock in the.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Morning, and yet there were still food trucks saying restaurants
and bar still open. And at the last minute before
they leave, they go, eh, let's just order. If they
had gone out as they were planning to do, they
would have collided with the killer.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Sydney.
Speaker 5 (02:19):
That's quite possible, Nancy. We believe the killer was in
that home four oh seven a m ish. That's that timeline.
We know Xanna were still active on her phone on
TikTok until four to twelve am, just a few minutes
after she received that door dash order. Now it was
Bethany and Dylan who were debating going out and getting
(02:41):
more food after meeting with their other roommates Kaylee and Madison.
So these girls were just minutes away, one decision away
from that night turning out possibly much differently than it did.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
That would have been victims five and six joining me
in All Star panel. But I want to go to former.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
FBI Scott Iiker, and we'll go back to him in
a moment regarding the seal datam because he's an expert
in that. But Scott, you've seen so many cases with
the FBI all across our country, and I've prosecuted, investigated
so many cases where just on a whim, like an
angel on your shoulder, you make a split decision and
(03:24):
you save your life or you lose your life. If
they had done that, Scott Iker, they would have collided
with Brian Coberger with his k bar knife and his
black Ninja suit on, and they would have been victims
five and six according to the prosecution.
Speaker 6 (03:43):
I totally agree in that the fact that it's random,
you know, a simple decision can change the lives of people.
Did you go this way, did you turn right, did
you turn left? Did you make this decision? Did you
not make this decision? And thank god there's not five
and six victims, But it can be random in the
(04:03):
aspect that what happens if they actually walk into the sky,
does he turn to walk away and everybody's okay, do
do they get murdered themselves too? That's the way it
occurs in every case.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
According to the prosecution, he entered the king Rote address
with murder.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
On his mind, and he had been planning it for at.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
Least eight months when he ordered the k bar knife
from Amazon. That's how far back the murder plot goes.
And we're about to get into motive. But at this
moment tonight, the timeline is crystallizing, is becoming even more clear.
Speaker 7 (04:43):
Listen, Kayli and Madison finished their food than lay in
bed chatting until they drift off to sleep. Zana places
a door dash order that arrives at four am and
is active on TikTok until four to twelve am. Around
that time, Dylan Mortenson hears strange noises and what sounds
like crying upstairs. Piece her head out of the room
and comes face to face with a man plaid in
all black. The only part of his body that isn't
(05:05):
covered his eyes. Now scared, Dylan places calls to her roommates,
Bethany is the only one who answers. The girls talk
at four nineteen, then again at four twenty before they
switch to text scene about the stranger in their home.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
And we have those texts.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
We're about to play them for you, but because they're
both afraid and two separate bedrooms and one of their
cell phones is going dead, it's like out of a
horror movie.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
One convinces the other one to take a.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Dash and run to the other bedroom, and it's then
that we believe one of the surviving girls spots Xana
dead on the floor.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
Listen.
Speaker 4 (05:47):
Bethany convinces Dylan to run to a room. In her
dash downstairs, Dylan sees Xana on the floor with her
feet toward the door, in her head toward the wall
in her room. The girls cower in Bethany's room until
they fall asleep for just a few restlessness. When they
wake up, Bethany and Dylan decide to call friends to
check the house at eleven forty nine am.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
And at that juncture, she was still assuming that Xana
was passed out from alcohol consumption. You know, to doctor Bethany,
Marshall joining us for now, psycho Alic's joining us out
of the La jurisdiction, author of deal Breaker. At doctor
Bethany Marshall dot com. You can see her on Peacock Now,
(06:26):
doctor Bethany, Why is it that our mind goes to
the most, let me say, the least threatening scenario. Because
when Dylan runs by, she sees Xana prone on the floor,
stretched out, but she thinks, oh my, she's passed.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
Out drunk and keeps running.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
It never occurs to her she's been stabbed dead and
the killer is in the house.
Speaker 8 (06:54):
You know, Nancy, this is a scene out of a
horror movie. I cannot imagine the fear, the panic, even
the courage just to leave her room and run to
the other girl's room. But when she sees her lying
on the floor, of course she's going to think as
alcohol because we interpret events out of our own past experience.
And if they were kids who liked to party and
(07:15):
have fun and enjoyed each other and maybe occasionally imbibed
a little too much alcohol, that's the interpretive lens through
which she's going to look at that experience, or look
at that prome body on the floor. On the other hand,
they are in a panic, so they're kind of going
back and forth between fear, panic, and oh she just
had a little too much to drink. It just it
(07:37):
sounds like a chaotic and confusing situation.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
I don't understand.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
I'm just a JD, not a shrink like you, But
I'm projecting. When my fiance was murdered and I was
first told that he was gone, I just assumed he
had had a crash, some kind of a car wreck.
But my mind never went to the fact that he
had been shot five times, and the face and the
(08:02):
head and the back. That's just not where your mind goes.
So I get it. And these victims have been assailed
and attacked.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
Why did they wait so long to report the attack?
What were they doing?
Speaker 2 (08:16):
Well, now we're learning what happened in those hours. Now
listen to this.
Speaker 3 (08:22):
When Dylan and Bethany emerged from Bethany's room to meet
their friends, Dylan sees Zenna in the same position as
the night before. Dylan bursts into tears, worried that she
may have serious alcohol poisoning. Moments later, one of the
men comes outside and instructs the girls to call nine
to one one. Now, Bethany connects with a dispatcher at
eleven fifty six am.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
Okay to Sidney Sumner, crime Stori's investigative reporter, explain what
we just heard.
Speaker 5 (08:48):
So we know that Dylan saw Zenna passed out in
her room. The next morning, they are too scared to
come out of Bethany's room without asking friends to come
and check the house. So we're now learning new court documents.
Hunter Johnson and a friend come over to the house
to check on the girls, make sure nothing is out
(09:09):
of place, and when Hunter Johnson gets to the house,
he actually grabs a knife out of the kitchen before
walking around the rest of the house because these girls
are so scared. So that's when they see Vanna again,
still pass out. Bethany and Dylan still think that maybe
she just drank too much the night before, but it's
(09:30):
odd that she isn't awake by now. So at this point,
the girls get upset and their friends send them out
of the house. Tell them to calm down. We're going
to check the rest of this out and we'll come
back with you.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Mean Hunter the male friend, they call him over because
they're cowering in the bedroom.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
They don't know what's happening.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
They're thinking, what she passed outun where's everybody else, what's happening?
Speaker 1 (09:50):
Who is that guy dressed all in black? Who's that?
So they call Hunter the friend.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
He comes over and whatever they say to him, they're
so afraid. He arms himself with a knife and says,
you two go.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
Out, I'm gonna go. Look.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
In the last days, Judge Hippler has made a big ruling.
Hippler has ruled the texts sent between Dylan and Bethany,
the two that survived that were meant to survive, to
tell the tale in court. Those texts are coming into
evidence and this is what they reveal.
Speaker 9 (10:27):
Listen, no one is answering. I'm really confused right now. Yeah, dude,
what the Xana was wearing all black? I'm freaking out
right now. No, it's like a ski mask almost shut
them up. Actually, like he had something over his forehead
and mouth. Bethany, I'm not kidding. I'm so freaked out,
So Amne. My phone is going to die.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
Come to my room, run down here.
Speaker 5 (10:51):
I'm screwed though, yeah, I know, but it's better than
being alone.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
Joining me.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Veteran trial lawyer Joshua Ritter, criminal defense attorney, former prosecutor,
and hosts of Courtroom confidential on YouTube.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
Joshua, Now I know why the defense.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
Thought too and Nail to keep out the text messages.
They corroborate what we are now learning about the timeline.
Speaker 10 (11:16):
Yeah, the defense was really aggressive. I'm trying to keep
this stuff out for a couple of reasons. Like you said,
it corroborates the timeline. But they also know these are
the only closest to eyewitnesses in this case, especially the
one surviving roommate giving that description. So they need to
cut the credibility of these witnesses as much as possible,
(11:36):
and they're going to attack one that their level of
intoxication at that time too. They're also saying that listen,
this is hearsay, and it is hearsay, but it falls
under certain exceptions. But they made these arguments to the
judge argued them vociferously that these should be cant differently.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
You're right that they argued hearsay. It did not work.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
On the text texts are coming in, but portions of
the nine one one call are being suppressed. I can't
believe that a portion of a nimal one call, which
is a contemporaneous communication, And the reason I'm using those
words that that's an exception to the hearsay rule if
the statements were made contemporaneous to the moment. But I
(12:20):
want you to hear the nine one one call and
we'll find out why the defense wanted to keep it out.
Speaker 5 (12:24):
Tell me what's going on one of our one of
the roommates has passed out, and she's drunk lass and
not leaking up.
Speaker 6 (12:33):
Okay.
Speaker 5 (12:34):
Oh and they saw some man in their house. I say, yeah, Hian.
Speaker 6 (12:40):
Are you in the patient?
Speaker 1 (12:41):
Okay?
Speaker 8 (12:41):
I need someone who keeps the phone, stop passing it around.
Speaker 5 (12:45):
Can I just tell you what happened?
Speaker 10 (12:46):
Pretty much?
Speaker 8 (12:47):
What is going on currently as someone passed out right now?
Speaker 2 (12:52):
I don't really know what pretty much?
Speaker 5 (12:53):
Aquorim okay, So.
Speaker 6 (12:55):
I need to know what's going on right now.
Speaker 8 (12:56):
If someone has passed out, can you find that out?
Speaker 11 (12:59):
Yeah, I'll come.
Speaker 5 (13:00):
I'm at.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
At that point. The girls, Dylan and Bethany are still hoping.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
I think even though deep inside they knew Xanna wasn't
just passed out. She's still lying on the floor where
she was hours before.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
But listen to the rest of the nightm one call.
Speaker 5 (13:34):
Wrong, She's not waking up.
Speaker 12 (13:41):
Okay, one moment, I'm gonna help start that way.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
And then you hear the male friend Hunter yelling at
Bethany and Dylan to.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
Get get out, go outside, get back out.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
Because he must realize that they have all been stabbed dead.
And you can hear her voice in the nimal one
call saying that they're not waking up. She's not waking up,
and realization is setting in that Xana is dead, lying
on the floor. Sidney, I'm perplexed as to why the
(14:27):
judge has suppressed even any part of this nimal one call,
But I guess Hippler.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
Threw a bone to the defense. What is the.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
Judge suppressing out of the nimal one calls, Nancy, it's
three statements, and really these are really hearsay.
Speaker 5 (14:46):
So the first caller that we hear, who is a
little bit calmer, not who is crying, labored breathing. Later,
that caller is not one of the roommates, that is
another friend, and she is relaying information that's been told
to her. One of the roommates is passed out and
not waking up, So that statement is the first one
that's not coming into evidence. And then that caller continues
(15:09):
her statement and says, oh and they saw a man
in their house last night, So not only is that
being relayed to her, but that's not talking about the
scene that's going on around her. So those two statements
are not coming in. And the third one is when
Bethany takes the phone and she's trying to tell the dispatcher,
can I just tell you what happened last night last
(15:30):
night at four am, and the dispatcher cuts her off.
She doesn't get any further than that, but the dispatcher
needs to know what's happening now. So those three statements
are what is going to be redacted from the nine
one one call when the jury hears.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
It, tell me exactly what's going on.
Speaker 13 (15:46):
One of the roommates has passed and she was strong class.
Speaker 5 (15:51):
Oh and they saw some man in their.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
House of right, Yeah, motive revealed. Why would Brian Coburger,
According to the State stalk and murder four innocent people
that King wrote address, he had to watch them to
see their comings and goings. What could possibly be the motive?
(16:16):
He didn't even know them. According to the defense, Joining
Me Now expert Howard Bloom, author of When the Night
Comes Falling, A Requiem for the Idaho Student murders Howard motive.
Speaker 13 (16:30):
The big question in this entire case has always been
why why would someone enter the house off campus home
of four students and brually murder them in the hours
before dawn? And all along everyone has been coming up
with hypotheses about what could have happened. Well, now the
(16:54):
prosecution thinks they have put the pieces together. They believe
that there's a direct link from doctor Catherine Ramslin to
Brian Colberger. Doctor Ramslin had been his tutor, his professor
at graduate school at Dessalle University. When he went for
his masters, he idolized her. She put him on a
(17:16):
course of course to become a forensic psychologist.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
And well, wait a minute, Wait a minute, Wait a minute, Howard. Okay,
so she was his instructor. We know that, we know
she's a renowned criminal investigator and professor, but how does
that equal motive, Howard.
Speaker 13 (17:39):
Brian Colberger is someone who becomes obsessed easily. He was
a heroin addict and then he kicked it. I believe
he was obsessed with one of the victims in the
king Roade murder House. And I also believe he was
obsessed with Kaffan Ramslin believe he in a way idolized her.
(18:04):
He idolized all her accomplishments, and he wanted to make
his own life, his own career, mirror her accomplishments. He
wanted to become a forensic psychologist. He wanted to have
her talent, her ability to look into the dark recesses
of the criminal mind, but he even wanted to take
its one step father. As his relationship grew, he wanted
(18:27):
to prove to her that he could be even better
than she was and understanding in the criminal mind, because
he could commit the perfect crime. And this perfect crime
that he was committing was, in many ways one can speculate,
almost a love letter to doctor Catherine Ramslin. He was
trying to win her affection and her respect, and his
(18:49):
way of doing this, in his bizarre sort of rout
of mate mania, was to make this perfect crime as
an homage to her.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
Howard Bloom has written the book That's True When the
Night Comes Falling. But I need a shrink again, doctor
Bethany Marshall, I'm just a trial lawyer.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
What is he saying a rodo mania?
Speaker 8 (19:13):
What Howard Bloom is saying is that Brian Kolberger was
in love with his mentor, and because he was studying
to become a clinical psychologist, a criminologist, he wanted to
commit the perfect crime. Howard Blum calls this a ronalmania.
Speaker 5 (19:31):
Rono Mania is.
Speaker 8 (19:32):
When somebody is in a very manic, excited state and
they believe that they are at the center of another
person's attention. So he believes that doctor Ramsln is in
love with him, and he's going to prove that he's
worthy of her love. Nancy, This makes no sense. I mean, honestly,
she's a criminologist and he's going to commit a crime
(19:53):
to impress her. I mean, logic just there's nothing logical
about that. I mean, let's say it works. Did he
take a trophy to give to her? Did he take
pictures to show to her? I mean, it would be
more understandable if he caught a killer to impress her,
not becoming a killer.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
We're talking about potential motive. Potential motive in this case.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
Was he so obsessed with Dr.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Ramslin that he had grown to love her in an
obsessive way to Chris McDonough joining me, a veteran homicide detective,
director Cole Case's Foundation and star of the interview room
on YouTube. I've seen murders for a lot less, but
obsession definitely.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
A motive I've seen many many times.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
And it doesn't mean the defendant and the love object
had ever been intimate, had ever even held hands or kissed.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
It's the obsession with Ramsland.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
That's what Howard Blue is talking about, whether requited or not.
Speaker 14 (21:04):
Yeah, the challenge so Nancy with the obsession aspect here
with doctor Ramslan is Brian Coberger hates women, Let's just
start there. And his obsessive behavior was not around his professor,
(21:25):
but rather his study of those who would commit mass murder.
And so I think we need to dig a little
bit deeper.
Speaker 15 (21:33):
Here, and again I believe that at some point it
will be shown that he was obsessed with serial killers
Ted Bundy, specifically.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
Crime stores with Nancy Gray.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
Was Brian Hoberger at obsessed with doctor Ramsen, one of
his female instructors, known as the consummate expert.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
In the field. We know that.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
Also the defense fought again tooth and nail to keep
out his thesis, the thesis regarding criminal behavior that he wrote,
which delves into the criminal psyche.
Speaker 12 (22:25):
Listen in arguments against its inclusion, The defense reveals that
prosecutors plan to enter into evidence records from Colberger's graduate
studies in psychology at the Sales University. The filing says
they have received discovery including Coberger's school calendar, written coursework, testing, emails,
and syllabi from his time as a master's student, and
(22:47):
the attorneys failed to see its relevance. As part of
his thesis, Colberger worked with professors to develop a survey
exploring how emotions influence a criminal's decision making during the
commission of a violent crime.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
Wow, is that.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
Airbrust or what Sidney Summer joining US Crime Stories investigative reporter.
It wasn't just a survey, It wasn't just a black
and white on a page report.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
He would ask these violent felons, how did you pick
your victim? What did it feel like when you enacted
the crime?
Speaker 2 (23:23):
In other words, when you stabbed someone, or raped someone,
or kill someone, felt the life.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
Ebbing out of their body? What did that feel like?
How did you get away? What was your exit strategy?
Speaker 2 (23:37):
He wanted the gruesome details, the emotions these violent felons
experienced in the throes of the murder.
Speaker 5 (23:49):
That's absolutely correct. This was not just a pick one
of the below survey. It was extremely in depth. He
wanted to know exactly how that criminal felt as they
committed their crime, their violent crime. In addition to that survey,
prosecutors also wanted to introduce a report that he gave,
(24:11):
and it was basically how he would go in and
assess a crime scene if he was the lead investigator
in a case. First to the crime scene. And that
case study was a stabbing of a woman more middle
aged than the victims in his actual criminal case. But
I think prosecutors planned to use that just to demonstrate
(24:32):
how much knowledging crime scene.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
Clo over verifies something that you just said.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
In his study, his hypothetical victim was a white female
alone that he stabbed with a knife inside a structure.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
Isn't that true?
Speaker 5 (24:50):
Yes? That is correct.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
Guys, do you not see.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
The importance of the judges ruling allowing that study, that
doctoral thesis that Coburger wrote, allowing that in now the
state is never required to show motive.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
But here you've.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
Got, according to Bloom, Coburger's obsession erotomania that doctor Bethany
explained to us with Ramsland hand in hand corroborated by
this thesis. He's trying so hard to not only oppress her,
but to best her in his knowledge.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
What about it, doctor Bethany, Well.
Speaker 8 (25:36):
I think one of the things he's doing. If we
think of this crime as sexually motivated, then interviewing other
criminals is almost like his pornography. It's one of the
things he wants to read and reread.
Speaker 5 (25:48):
He's obsessed with it.
Speaker 8 (25:49):
But I would say that that motivation also applies to
doctor Ramslom that if there were a lot of media
that the excitement, the sexual excitement, the emotional excitement and
being around her is that she's talking about crime. This
is his crack nancy. This is the thing that he
is most obsessed about. So if he were to be
(26:12):
in love with somebody, and if he were to believe
that that love object reciprocates his affection, it would be
something like doctor Ramsland, because they have this common interest
in crime.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
Can I ask you something, doctor Bethany, How does stabbing
a young co ed over and overslicing her up, butchering her,
how is that sexually.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
Pleasing?
Speaker 8 (26:36):
In the DSM, we see that sexual sadism is one
of the five perversions exhibitionism, proderism, voyeurism, pedophilia. And the
reason for that, Nancy, is that sociopaths have under arousal
in her emptiness. They can't get excited by normal events
in life like you and I do. So Committing cruelty,
(26:58):
seeing the fear in a woman's eyes, feeling the knight
slash through their body, all of these things are very
sexually satisfying because they pair sadism and being hurtful with
sexual excitement. In other words, it stimulates them out of
that dead state. You know how we say with killers
they have dead eyes. They do have dead eyes because
(27:22):
internally they are dead, but when they commit acts of cruelty,
it brings them alive, and they pair that with sexual excitement,
and that's what drives the crime, and.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
Then they relive it over and over and over for
sexual excitement. Speaking of I'm sure Ramsm is not happy
about this theory of motive that is now emerging according
to Howard Bloom, but corroborating her relationship with him and
(27:55):
his family. Let's go to Howard Bloom tell me about
the connection between Ramslin and Coyberger's family.
Speaker 13 (28:04):
The relationship betwetween doctor Ramslin and the family began way
before the trial. Just days after Brian Coburger's arrest, his
family gets a call from doctor Ramslin asking if she
can help, if she can help them in any way.
She's not talking about his innocence or guilt. She's just
(28:27):
concerned about a student and she wants to guide the
family through this complicated process. The family told the lawyers involved, wait,
we can't do anything until doctor Ramslin gives us approvals
to meet with you.
Speaker 7 (28:41):
Thank Vehicle one is first recorded Ian Pullman at two
forty four am as it heads east on State Route
two seventy the direction of Moscow. At three h two am,
it's captured passing Floyd's Cannabis company, located just off State
Route two seventy. At three twenty six am, cameras at
three different residences in the seven hund block of Indian
Hills Drive in Moscow pick up the.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
Same white sedan.
Speaker 7 (29:04):
Two minutes later, at three twenty eight am, a camera
at Sunset Mart in Moscow recorded the car turn west
about half a mile away and head in the direction
of the King Roadhouse.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
It sounds to me Scott Iiker joining me, founding member
FBI's cast Historical Cellular Analysis expert cast Team Scott. It
sounds like they have got him in his vehicle starting
at two forty four a m. And I'm going to
explain how the vehicle is trapped all the way back
(29:40):
to within one mile that night at five point twenty
six am, back to his apartment, Scott Iiker.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
How did they do it?
Speaker 6 (29:50):
That's one of the things that we teach in our
classes is not only are you looking at the cell
phone stuff, but the cell phone stuff can lead you
to the paths that the vehicle or person took, so
you can go look for cameras in that area. It's
very helpful and validates the cellular stuff. And the cameras
themselves are very helpful, and nowadays there's numerous cameras everywhere houses,
(30:14):
ring doors, businesses. It's very helpful. And if you can
piece it together correctly and make a timeline, you can
see that car in this case, the white cident traveling
towards the crime scene. That's fantastic evidence.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace Scott Iiker with us.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
As we just reported, he the vehicle, the white Alantra
matching the description of his car, pulls out at Pullman
where he lives.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
It's about ten minutes.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
Away from King Road where the four students were murdered
at Pullman two forty four, heading east State wrote to
seventy toward Moscow three two a m. About twenty minutes later,
it passes Floyd's Cannabis. That's just off two seventy three.
(31:17):
Twenty six cameras at three residences spot the Elantra at
Indian Hills Drive. Okay, that's in Moscow. He's in Moscow
picking up the same white Alantra. Two minutes later three
twenty eight Sunset Mart Moscow records the car turn and
head toward the King Road house.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
Chris mcdona. You and I intimately familiar with that.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
Sunset Mart is at that the place, Chris mcdona, where
a clerk took it upon herself to come through literally
hours of surveillance video and she spots a white Elantra
speeding by and she calls police.
Speaker 14 (31:59):
Yeah, Nancy, and you've been there, You've seen that intersection.
And what's really interesting here is this is the night
of the homicide. I'm going to be really curious to
find out what the cast team discovered not the night
of the homicide, but leading up to it, that's going
to be fascinating information as well.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
At that corner where the Sunset mart is, it's just
a hop, skip and a jump from there to the
King Road address, and there you've got a white a
launch returning heading toward the murder scene.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
Okay, let's pick it up right there. Listen.
Speaker 4 (32:35):
A security camera on the apartment building neighboring eleven twenty
two King Road first records a white sedan at three
thirty am. Over the next thirty four minutes, it circles
the neighborhood at least five times, then parks. At four
oh seven am, prosecutor's right vehicle one exits the frame,
traveling in the direction of the victim's residence. There is
no subsequent activity captured for approximately thirteen minutes. At four
(32:59):
to twenty am, the white Sitan leaves King Wrote at
a high rate of speed and turns west onto Taylor
Avenue to exit the area on the road behind the neighborhood.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
We've seen this before.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
Can't you just imagine this was going to happen, Joshua Ritter.
The jury is going to be sitting there and they're
going to be watching this video, and we saw it
recently in another case we investigated and covered. It's the
case of the so called glam yoga instructor. She wasn't
glamed to me, Kaylin Armstrong, angry about a love rival,
(33:31):
made up a whole love triangle in her head. Then
followed the victim, a young dirt bike racer. Marine followed her,
and you see surveillance of her like a vulture, circling
round and round and round in her black suv. Same
(33:51):
thing here here we are three thirty am. Okay, just
after the white Elantra passes the sunset, mart would say,
is the crow flies that's a mile or so away
from the King Road address. For thirty four minutes it
circles one, two, three, four five. At four seven am,
(34:15):
parks Vehicle one exits the frame, traveling in the direction
of the victim's residence. No activity after that for thirteen minutes.
For twenty am, that white Elantra leaves at a high
rate of speed. Now overlay that Joshua with what Dylan
(34:39):
and Bethany say right based on their timeline, that's exactly
when they spot the intruder in the home just before
four twenty a m. Just as they were about to
head out to get food, and they go, ah, let's
(35:01):
do door dash right there, it all fits together.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
Ritter, Yeah, it's powerful stuff.
Speaker 10 (35:06):
I mean, listen, this is this is going to be
one of the things that the defense is going to
have to deal with most seriously. Because you're right, you
start to line it up the way you did, it
starts to pain a pretty vivid picture for the jury.
What is the defense going to argue? I think they're
going to argue. Listen, this is not horseshoes close. It
doesn't count here. You if you're not able to place
(35:26):
our client, the defendant, at the location, and the closest
you can do is a mile away, well then what
are we dealing with here. We're dealing with a person
who happened to have been driving within a mile of
a crime scene. Does not make him guilty. I realize
the counter arguments to all of this, but I'm saying,
as far as the defense is concerned, it's a mile hold.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
Har Yeah, he's in the neighborhood and he parks close
to the home. The white Lantra is much closer than
a mile.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
It's a one minute.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
Walk from where they car is parked at four seven,
only leaving at.
Speaker 1 (36:04):
A high rate of speed at four twenty.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
The best argument they've got right there is, yeah, it's
a white Alantra, but it's not my guy.
Speaker 1 (36:11):
He happened to.
Speaker 2 (36:12):
Be out in his white Alantra gazing at the moon
and stars, but that's not his Elantra. But it doesn't
end their ridder. This is like him raising his hand
going I did it listen.
Speaker 3 (36:26):
At five twenty six am, a white sedan is next
recorded on surveillance footage at e Ands Services on Johnson
Road in Pullman. Footage at a Pullman sunset mark then
shows the car headed north on State Route two. Seventy.
Cameras on the WSU campus record the vehicle making its
way north near Beasley Coliseum, which is about a mile
from Coburger's student department.
Speaker 7 (36:48):
Brian Coberger's defense team is asking the judge to limit
expert testimony from FBI Special Agent Nicholas Balance, the member
of CAST, a cellular analyst survey team that specializes in
location least on cell phone records. The defense says call
detail records provide partial alibi corroboration. Balance is prepared to
(37:09):
speak about the location of Coburger's cell phone before and
after the student homicides.
Speaker 2 (37:14):
Wow, no wonder the defense wants that suppressed and more listen.
Speaker 3 (37:21):
Jared and Heather Barnhardt work with Celebrate, with extensive experience
in digital forensics. Celebrate forensic specialists use specialized software and
techniques to extract data from electronic devices. They analyzed Coburger's
computer and cell phone data to determine his whereabouts and
activity before and after the murders. They also looked for
signs of tampering or deletion of files. Hitler rules that
(37:44):
the Barnhardt's testimony is admissible during the trial.
Speaker 1 (37:47):
To Scott Iiker, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa? Who did I
hear tampering? Deletion of files?
Speaker 2 (37:54):
You know the last time I cleaned out my text
Never Scott Iiker with me founding member I Cellular Analysis
serve a team, an expert in this, Scott Iiker, what.
Speaker 1 (38:06):
Do they say?
Speaker 6 (38:07):
Well, this is damaging evidence, especially if you're putting any
cellular data that the defendant has along with the phone,
of the camera, stuff of the video and you start
matching up the timelines, very very important evidence that to present.
And I can see why the defense doesn't want it
in because it is damaging this cellular data and the
(38:29):
self right information has been proven time and time again
to be reliable in court. So they judge made the
good decision and I'm glad he found there was no
legal basis to exclude them and he's not throwing them.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
Upon you know too.
Speaker 2 (38:44):
Joe Scott Morgan joining as professor forensics, break it down
for me. Did you hear the words delete tamper with evidence?
Because a jury hears this expert take the stay in
and talk about Coburger potentially deleting or destroying evidence, it's over.
Speaker 1 (39:06):
Why would he destroy evidence if he was innocent.
Speaker 11 (39:09):
It's a thread that runs through this entire case. Remember,
we also have evidence that there was an attempt to
clear out the cachet with the Amazon purchases as well. Nancy,
you see this pattern that's developing here and to this
point about the overlay of the area, it's very compelling.
(39:29):
You know, there's one other piece that we that we
haven't really mentioned. That cell phone actually had pinged back
in that area the next morning. You recall that, and
so almost as a confirmatory drive by perhaps no one
really knows at this point in time, so he may
have returned that morning just to see if there was
(39:52):
any activity around the home. And this goes back to
what we said earlier about the roommates. You've got these
poor kids that are in this place and they're losing
their minds in there. But he wants to casually drive
by and see if anybody is caught wind of this ship.
Speaker 1 (40:08):
You know, Joshua Ritter, you're a veteran trial lawyer.
Speaker 2 (40:11):
We're talking about how he can get out of the
car evid as by claiming, well, yeah, it looks like
my car, but it's not my car, even though it
went all the way back toward less than one mile
from his Pullman address and it left from there as well.
We're talking about cell phone data, whether he deleted data.
But the reality is it boils down to this. His
(40:33):
DNA is on the NFE sheet. It just can't get
away from that. Everything else again is gravy.
Speaker 10 (40:42):
No, you're right, the whole case hinges on that. I
don't even think you have a filed case without that. Well,
and certainly we don't even know if they would ever
even have a suspect without that. So the whole case
where the prosecution comes down to that DNA, and that's
why you saw the defense fight so vigorously to have
it thrown out legally. That failed, and now they're making
(41:03):
attempts to somehow explain it, because without some sort of
innoctant explanation as to why their client's DNA is on
that knife sheet, they've got major problems.
Speaker 13 (41:11):
Now.
Speaker 10 (41:11):
The one avenue that they have here is they keep
talking about this being touched DNA or transferred DNA meaning
DNA that you can't exactly say. Does that mean the suspect,
the person whose DNA is the contributor, actually touched that item,
or was it transferred there by some other object or person,
(41:31):
or was it put there that object where the DNA
was recovered from by someone else. These are the arguments
that it seems like the defense might be exploring in
this case.
Speaker 2 (41:41):
We remember American hero Detangis Service officer Michael Wall La
County Probation passed away in the line of duty fourteen
years with law enforcement. Leays behind a graving daughter Aubrey,
sister Juel Dion Angelique.
Speaker 1 (41:59):
And brother Sylvester.
Speaker 2 (42:01):
American hero officer Michael Wall, Nancy Grace sarting Off goodbye
FA
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
A Brian Coberg bombshell. Did a survivor roommate actually see
her roommate Xana lying dead on Xana's bedroom floor and
spots the masked intruder wearing all black and tonight motive revealed?
(00:28):
And Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. I want to
thank you for being with us.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
On location of your emergency.
Speaker 4 (00:44):
Emergency one one.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Twos did one of these surviving young women, a young girl,
actually see Xanna Kunodle's dead body lying on her bedroom floor,
prone mistaking it for alcohol consumption, then spots the masked
(01:08):
intruder that the state says was none other than PhD
student Brian Cooburger but also tonight, did two of the
roommates nearly collide with the killer?
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Listen?
Speaker 4 (01:24):
Xana Cernodle and Ethan Chapin heads straight to Zanna's room
when they get in from a Sigma Kay party at
one forty five, but Kaylee gonzambez In, Madison Mogan chat
with Dylan Mortenson and Bethany funking Kaylee's room when they
arrive about twenty minutes later. The smell of Kaylee and
Madison's grub truck snacks make Bethany and Dylan debate going
back out for their own two ten am, Dylan takes
(01:44):
a friend to see if they're willing to give them
a ride, but getting no reply, the girls decide to
head to bed and say the good nights.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Straight out to Sidney Sumner, a Crime Stories investigative reporter, Sydney,
they really wanted to go back out and get something
to eat, finally opting for just let's order.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Some door dash. It's like four o'clock in the.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Morning, and yet there were still food trucks saying restaurants
and bar still open. And at the last minute before
they leave, they go, eh, let's just order. If they
had gone out as they were planning to do, they
would have collided with the killer.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Sydney.
Speaker 5 (02:19):
That's quite possible, Nancy. We believe the killer was in
that home four oh seven a m ish. That's that timeline.
We know Xanna were still active on her phone on
TikTok until four to twelve am, just a few minutes
after she received that door dash order. Now it was
Bethany and Dylan who were debating going out and getting
(02:41):
more food after meeting with their other roommates Kaylee and Madison.
So these girls were just minutes away, one decision away
from that night turning out possibly much differently than it did.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
That would have been victims five and six joining me
in All Star panel. But I want to go to former.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
FBI Scott Iiker, and we'll go back to him in
a moment regarding the seal datam because he's an expert
in that. But Scott, you've seen so many cases with
the FBI all across our country, and I've prosecuted, investigated
so many cases where just on a whim, like an
angel on your shoulder, you make a split decision and
(03:24):
you save your life or you lose your life. If
they had done that, Scott Iker, they would have collided
with Brian Coberger with his k bar knife and his
black Ninja suit on, and they would have been victims
five and six according to the prosecution.
Speaker 6 (03:43):
I totally agree in that the fact that it's random,
you know, a simple decision can change the lives of people.
Did you go this way, did you turn right, did
you turn left? Did you make this decision? Did you
not make this decision? And thank god there's not five
and six victims, But it can be random in the
(04:03):
aspect that what happens if they actually walk into the sky,
does he turn to walk away and everybody's okay, do
do they get murdered themselves too? That's the way it
occurs in every case.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
According to the prosecution, he entered the king Rote address
with murder.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
On his mind, and he had been planning it for at.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
Least eight months when he ordered the k bar knife
from Amazon. That's how far back the murder plot goes.
And we're about to get into motive. But at this
moment tonight, the timeline is crystallizing, is becoming even more clear.
Speaker 7 (04:43):
Listen, Kayli and Madison finished their food than lay in
bed chatting until they drift off to sleep. Zana places
a door dash order that arrives at four am and
is active on TikTok until four to twelve am. Around
that time, Dylan Mortenson hears strange noises and what sounds
like crying upstairs. Piece her head out of the room
and comes face to face with a man plaid in
all black. The only part of his body that isn't
(05:05):
covered his eyes. Now scared, Dylan places calls to her roommates,
Bethany is the only one who answers. The girls talk
at four nineteen, then again at four twenty before they
switch to text scene about the stranger in their home.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
And we have those texts.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
We're about to play them for you, but because they're
both afraid and two separate bedrooms and one of their
cell phones is going dead, it's like out of a
horror movie.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
One convinces the other one to take a.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Dash and run to the other bedroom, and it's then
that we believe one of the surviving girls spots Xana
dead on the floor.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
Listen.
Speaker 4 (05:47):
Bethany convinces Dylan to run to a room. In her
dash downstairs, Dylan sees Xana on the floor with her
feet toward the door, in her head toward the wall
in her room. The girls cower in Bethany's room until
they fall asleep for just a few restlessness. When they
wake up, Bethany and Dylan decide to call friends to
check the house at eleven forty nine am.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
And at that juncture, she was still assuming that Xana
was passed out from alcohol consumption. You know, to doctor Bethany,
Marshall joining us for now, psycho Alic's joining us out
of the La jurisdiction, author of deal Breaker. At doctor
Bethany Marshall dot com. You can see her on Peacock Now,
(06:26):
doctor Bethany, Why is it that our mind goes to
the most, let me say, the least threatening scenario. Because
when Dylan runs by, she sees Xana prone on the floor,
stretched out, but she thinks, oh my, she's passed.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
Out drunk and keeps running.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
It never occurs to her she's been stabbed dead and
the killer is in the house.
Speaker 8 (06:54):
You know, Nancy, this is a scene out of a
horror movie. I cannot imagine the fear, the panic, even
the courage just to leave her room and run to
the other girl's room. But when she sees her lying
on the floor, of course she's going to think as
alcohol because we interpret events out of our own past experience.
And if they were kids who liked to party and
(07:15):
have fun and enjoyed each other and maybe occasionally imbibed
a little too much alcohol, that's the interpretive lens through
which she's going to look at that experience, or look
at that prome body on the floor. On the other hand,
they are in a panic, so they're kind of going
back and forth between fear, panic, and oh she just
had a little too much to drink. It just it
(07:37):
sounds like a chaotic and confusing situation.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
I don't understand.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
I'm just a JD, not a shrink like you, But
I'm projecting. When my fiance was murdered and I was
first told that he was gone, I just assumed he
had had a crash, some kind of a car wreck.
But my mind never went to the fact that he
had been shot five times, and the face and the
(08:02):
head and the back. That's just not where your mind goes.
So I get it. And these victims have been assailed
and attacked.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
Why did they wait so long to report the attack?
What were they doing?
Speaker 2 (08:16):
Well, now we're learning what happened in those hours. Now
listen to this.
Speaker 3 (08:22):
When Dylan and Bethany emerged from Bethany's room to meet
their friends, Dylan sees Zenna in the same position as
the night before. Dylan bursts into tears, worried that she
may have serious alcohol poisoning. Moments later, one of the
men comes outside and instructs the girls to call nine
to one one. Now, Bethany connects with a dispatcher at
eleven fifty six am.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
Okay to Sidney Sumner, crime Stori's investigative reporter, explain what
we just heard.
Speaker 5 (08:48):
So we know that Dylan saw Zenna passed out in
her room. The next morning, they are too scared to
come out of Bethany's room without asking friends to come
and check the house. So we're now learning new court documents.
Hunter Johnson and a friend come over to the house
to check on the girls, make sure nothing is out
(09:09):
of place, and when Hunter Johnson gets to the house,
he actually grabs a knife out of the kitchen before
walking around the rest of the house because these girls
are so scared. So that's when they see Vanna again,
still pass out. Bethany and Dylan still think that maybe
she just drank too much the night before, but it's
(09:30):
odd that she isn't awake by now. So at this point,
the girls get upset and their friends send them out
of the house. Tell them to calm down. We're going
to check the rest of this out and we'll come
back with you.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Mean Hunter the male friend, they call him over because
they're cowering in the bedroom.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
They don't know what's happening.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
They're thinking, what she passed outun where's everybody else, what's happening?
Speaker 1 (09:50):
Who is that guy dressed all in black? Who's that?
So they call Hunter the friend.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
He comes over and whatever they say to him, they're
so afraid. He arms himself with a knife and says,
you two go.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
Out, I'm gonna go. Look.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
In the last days, Judge Hippler has made a big ruling.
Hippler has ruled the texts sent between Dylan and Bethany,
the two that survived that were meant to survive, to
tell the tale in court. Those texts are coming into
evidence and this is what they reveal.
Speaker 9 (10:27):
Listen, no one is answering. I'm really confused right now. Yeah, dude,
what the Xana was wearing all black? I'm freaking out
right now. No, it's like a ski mask almost shut
them up. Actually, like he had something over his forehead
and mouth. Bethany, I'm not kidding. I'm so freaked out,
So Amne. My phone is going to die.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
Come to my room, run down here.
Speaker 5 (10:51):
I'm screwed though, yeah, I know, but it's better than
being alone.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
Joining me.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Veteran trial lawyer Joshua Ritter, criminal defense attorney, former prosecutor,
and hosts of Courtroom confidential on YouTube.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
Joshua, Now I know why the defense.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
Thought too and Nail to keep out the text messages.
They corroborate what we are now learning about the timeline.
Speaker 10 (11:16):
Yeah, the defense was really aggressive. I'm trying to keep
this stuff out for a couple of reasons. Like you said,
it corroborates the timeline. But they also know these are
the only closest to eyewitnesses in this case, especially the
one surviving roommate giving that description. So they need to
cut the credibility of these witnesses as much as possible,
(11:36):
and they're going to attack one that their level of
intoxication at that time too. They're also saying that listen,
this is hearsay, and it is hearsay, but it falls
under certain exceptions. But they made these arguments to the
judge argued them vociferously that these should be cant differently.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
You're right that they argued hearsay. It did not work.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
On the text texts are coming in, but portions of
the nine one one call are being suppressed. I can't
believe that a portion of a nimal one call, which
is a contemporaneous communication, And the reason I'm using those
words that that's an exception to the hearsay rule if
the statements were made contemporaneous to the moment. But I
(12:20):
want you to hear the nine one one call and
we'll find out why the defense wanted to keep it out.
Speaker 5 (12:24):
Tell me what's going on one of our one of
the roommates has passed out, and she's drunk lass and
not leaking up.
Speaker 6 (12:33):
Okay.
Speaker 5 (12:34):
Oh and they saw some man in their house. I say, yeah, Hian.
Speaker 6 (12:40):
Are you in the patient?
Speaker 1 (12:41):
Okay?
Speaker 8 (12:41):
I need someone who keeps the phone, stop passing it around.
Speaker 5 (12:45):
Can I just tell you what happened?
Speaker 10 (12:46):
Pretty much?
Speaker 8 (12:47):
What is going on currently as someone passed out right now?
Speaker 2 (12:52):
I don't really know what pretty much?
Speaker 5 (12:53):
Aquorim okay, So.
Speaker 6 (12:55):
I need to know what's going on right now.
Speaker 8 (12:56):
If someone has passed out, can you find that out?
Speaker 11 (12:59):
Yeah, I'll come.
Speaker 5 (13:00):
I'm at.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
At that point. The girls, Dylan and Bethany are still hoping.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
I think even though deep inside they knew Xanna wasn't
just passed out. She's still lying on the floor where
she was hours before.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
But listen to the rest of the nightm one call.
Speaker 5 (13:34):
Wrong, She's not waking up.
Speaker 12 (13:41):
Okay, one moment, I'm gonna help start that way.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
And then you hear the male friend Hunter yelling at
Bethany and Dylan to.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
Get get out, go outside, get back out.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
Because he must realize that they have all been stabbed dead.
And you can hear her voice in the nimal one
call saying that they're not waking up. She's not waking up,
and realization is setting in that Xana is dead, lying
on the floor. Sidney, I'm perplexed as to why the
(14:27):
judge has suppressed even any part of this nimal one call,
But I guess Hippler.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
Threw a bone to the defense. What is the.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
Judge suppressing out of the nimal one calls, Nancy, it's
three statements, and really these are really hearsay.
Speaker 5 (14:46):
So the first caller that we hear, who is a
little bit calmer, not who is crying, labored breathing. Later,
that caller is not one of the roommates, that is
another friend, and she is relaying information that's been told
to her. One of the roommates is passed out and
not waking up, So that statement is the first one
that's not coming into evidence. And then that caller continues
(15:09):
her statement and says, oh and they saw a man
in their house last night, So not only is that
being relayed to her, but that's not talking about the
scene that's going on around her. So those two statements
are not coming in. And the third one is when
Bethany takes the phone and she's trying to tell the dispatcher,
can I just tell you what happened last night last
(15:30):
night at four am, and the dispatcher cuts her off.
She doesn't get any further than that, but the dispatcher
needs to know what's happening now. So those three statements
are what is going to be redacted from the nine
one one call when the jury hears.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
It, tell me exactly what's going on.
Speaker 13 (15:46):
One of the roommates has passed and she was strong class.
Speaker 5 (15:51):
Oh and they saw some man in their.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
House of right, Yeah, motive revealed. Why would Brian Coburger,
According to the State stalk and murder four innocent people
that King wrote address, he had to watch them to
see their comings and goings. What could possibly be the motive?
(16:16):
He didn't even know them. According to the defense, Joining
Me Now expert Howard Bloom, author of When the Night
Comes Falling, A Requiem for the Idaho Student murders Howard motive.
Speaker 13 (16:30):
The big question in this entire case has always been
why why would someone enter the house off campus home
of four students and brually murder them in the hours
before dawn? And all along everyone has been coming up
with hypotheses about what could have happened. Well, now the
(16:54):
prosecution thinks they have put the pieces together. They believe
that there's a direct link from doctor Catherine Ramslin to
Brian Colberger. Doctor Ramslin had been his tutor, his professor
at graduate school at Dessalle University. When he went for
his masters, he idolized her. She put him on a
(17:16):
course of course to become a forensic psychologist.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
And well, wait a minute, Wait a minute, Wait a minute, Howard. Okay,
so she was his instructor. We know that, we know
she's a renowned criminal investigator and professor, but how does
that equal motive, Howard.
Speaker 13 (17:39):
Brian Colberger is someone who becomes obsessed easily. He was
a heroin addict and then he kicked it. I believe
he was obsessed with one of the victims in the
king Roade murder House. And I also believe he was
obsessed with Kaffan Ramslin believe he in a way idolized her.
(18:04):
He idolized all her accomplishments, and he wanted to make
his own life, his own career, mirror her accomplishments. He
wanted to become a forensic psychologist. He wanted to have
her talent, her ability to look into the dark recesses
of the criminal mind, but he even wanted to take
its one step father. As his relationship grew, he wanted
(18:27):
to prove to her that he could be even better
than she was and understanding in the criminal mind, because
he could commit the perfect crime. And this perfect crime
that he was committing was, in many ways one can speculate,
almost a love letter to doctor Catherine Ramslin. He was
trying to win her affection and her respect, and his
(18:49):
way of doing this, in his bizarre sort of rout
of mate mania, was to make this perfect crime as
an homage to her.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
Howard Bloom has written the book That's True When the
Night Comes Falling. But I need a shrink again, doctor
Bethany Marshall, I'm just a trial lawyer.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
What is he saying a rodo mania?
Speaker 8 (19:13):
What Howard Bloom is saying is that Brian Kolberger was
in love with his mentor, and because he was studying
to become a clinical psychologist, a criminologist, he wanted to
commit the perfect crime. Howard Blum calls this a ronalmania.
Speaker 5 (19:31):
Rono Mania is.
Speaker 8 (19:32):
When somebody is in a very manic, excited state and
they believe that they are at the center of another
person's attention. So he believes that doctor Ramsln is in
love with him, and he's going to prove that he's
worthy of her love. Nancy, This makes no sense. I mean, honestly,
she's a criminologist and he's going to commit a crime
(19:53):
to impress her. I mean, logic just there's nothing logical
about that. I mean, let's say it works. Did he
take a trophy to give to her? Did he take
pictures to show to her? I mean, it would be
more understandable if he caught a killer to impress her,
not becoming a killer.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
We're talking about potential motive. Potential motive in this case.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
Was he so obsessed with Dr.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Ramslin that he had grown to love her in an
obsessive way to Chris McDonough joining me, a veteran homicide detective,
director Cole Case's Foundation and star of the interview room
on YouTube. I've seen murders for a lot less, but
obsession definitely.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
A motive I've seen many many times.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
And it doesn't mean the defendant and the love object
had ever been intimate, had ever even held hands or kissed.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
It's the obsession with Ramsland.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
That's what Howard Blue is talking about, whether requited or not.
Speaker 14 (21:04):
Yeah, the challenge so Nancy with the obsession aspect here
with doctor Ramslan is Brian Coberger hates women, Let's just
start there. And his obsessive behavior was not around his professor,
(21:25):
but rather his study of those who would commit mass murder.
And so I think we need to dig a little
bit deeper.
Speaker 15 (21:33):
Here, and again I believe that at some point it
will be shown that he was obsessed with serial killers
Ted Bundy, specifically.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
Crime stores with Nancy Gray.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
Was Brian Hoberger at obsessed with doctor Ramsen, one of
his female instructors, known as the consummate expert.
Speaker 1 (22:08):
In the field. We know that.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
Also the defense fought again tooth and nail to keep
out his thesis, the thesis regarding criminal behavior that he wrote,
which delves into the criminal psyche.
Speaker 12 (22:25):
Listen in arguments against its inclusion, The defense reveals that
prosecutors plan to enter into evidence records from Colberger's graduate
studies in psychology at the Sales University. The filing says
they have received discovery including Coberger's school calendar, written coursework, testing, emails,
and syllabi from his time as a master's student, and
(22:47):
the attorneys failed to see its relevance. As part of
his thesis, Colberger worked with professors to develop a survey
exploring how emotions influence a criminal's decision making during the
commission of a violent crime.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
Wow, is that.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
Airbrust or what Sidney Summer joining US Crime Stories investigative reporter.
It wasn't just a survey, It wasn't just a black
and white on a page report.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
He would ask these violent felons, how did you pick
your victim? What did it feel like when you enacted
the crime?
Speaker 2 (23:23):
In other words, when you stabbed someone, or raped someone,
or kill someone, felt the life.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
Ebbing out of their body? What did that feel like?
How did you get away? What was your exit strategy?
Speaker 2 (23:37):
He wanted the gruesome details, the emotions these violent felons
experienced in the throes of the murder.
Speaker 5 (23:49):
That's absolutely correct. This was not just a pick one
of the below survey. It was extremely in depth. He
wanted to know exactly how that criminal felt as they
committed their crime, their violent crime. In addition to that survey,
prosecutors also wanted to introduce a report that he gave,
(24:11):
and it was basically how he would go in and
assess a crime scene if he was the lead investigator
in a case. First to the crime scene. And that
case study was a stabbing of a woman more middle
aged than the victims in his actual criminal case. But
I think prosecutors planned to use that just to demonstrate
(24:32):
how much knowledging crime scene.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
Clo over verifies something that you just said.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
In his study, his hypothetical victim was a white female
alone that he stabbed with a knife inside a structure.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
Isn't that true?
Speaker 5 (24:50):
Yes? That is correct.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
Guys, do you not see.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
The importance of the judges ruling allowing that study, that
doctoral thesis that Coburger wrote, allowing that in now the
state is never required to show motive.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
But here you've.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
Got, according to Bloom, Coburger's obsession erotomania that doctor Bethany
explained to us with Ramsland hand in hand corroborated by
this thesis. He's trying so hard to not only oppress her,
but to best her in his knowledge.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
What about it, doctor Bethany, Well.
Speaker 8 (25:36):
I think one of the things he's doing. If we
think of this crime as sexually motivated, then interviewing other
criminals is almost like his pornography. It's one of the
things he wants to read and reread.
Speaker 5 (25:48):
He's obsessed with it.
Speaker 8 (25:49):
But I would say that that motivation also applies to
doctor Ramslom that if there were a lot of media
that the excitement, the sexual excitement, the emotional excitement and
being around her is that she's talking about crime. This
is his crack nancy. This is the thing that he
is most obsessed about. So if he were to be
(26:12):
in love with somebody, and if he were to believe
that that love object reciprocates his affection, it would be
something like doctor Ramsland, because they have this common interest
in crime.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
Can I ask you something, doctor Bethany, How does stabbing
a young co ed over and overslicing her up, butchering her,
how is that sexually.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
Pleasing?
Speaker 8 (26:36):
In the DSM, we see that sexual sadism is one
of the five perversions exhibitionism, proderism, voyeurism, pedophilia. And the
reason for that, Nancy, is that sociopaths have under arousal
in her emptiness. They can't get excited by normal events
in life like you and I do. So Committing cruelty,
(26:58):
seeing the fear in a woman's eyes, feeling the knight
slash through their body, all of these things are very
sexually satisfying because they pair sadism and being hurtful with
sexual excitement. In other words, it stimulates them out of
that dead state. You know how we say with killers
they have dead eyes. They do have dead eyes because
(27:22):
internally they are dead, but when they commit acts of cruelty,
it brings them alive, and they pair that with sexual excitement,
and that's what drives the crime, and.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
Then they relive it over and over and over for
sexual excitement. Speaking of I'm sure Ramsm is not happy
about this theory of motive that is now emerging according
to Howard Bloom, but corroborating her relationship with him and
(27:55):
his family. Let's go to Howard Bloom tell me about
the connection between Ramslin and Coyberger's family.
Speaker 13 (28:04):
The relationship betwetween doctor Ramslin and the family began way
before the trial. Just days after Brian Coburger's arrest, his
family gets a call from doctor Ramslin asking if she
can help, if she can help them in any way.
She's not talking about his innocence or guilt. She's just
(28:27):
concerned about a student and she wants to guide the
family through this complicated process. The family told the lawyers involved, wait,
we can't do anything until doctor Ramslin gives us approvals
to meet with you.
Speaker 7 (28:41):
Thank Vehicle one is first recorded Ian Pullman at two
forty four am as it heads east on State Route
two seventy the direction of Moscow. At three h two am,
it's captured passing Floyd's Cannabis company, located just off State
Route two seventy. At three twenty six am, cameras at
three different residences in the seven hund block of Indian
Hills Drive in Moscow pick up the.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
Same white sedan.
Speaker 7 (29:04):
Two minutes later, at three twenty eight am, a camera
at Sunset Mart in Moscow recorded the car turn west
about half a mile away and head in the direction
of the King Roadhouse.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
It sounds to me Scott Iiker joining me, founding member
FBI's cast Historical Cellular Analysis expert cast Team Scott. It
sounds like they have got him in his vehicle starting
at two forty four a m. And I'm going to
explain how the vehicle is trapped all the way back
(29:40):
to within one mile that night at five point twenty
six am, back to his apartment, Scott Iiker.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
How did they do it?
Speaker 6 (29:50):
That's one of the things that we teach in our
classes is not only are you looking at the cell
phone stuff, but the cell phone stuff can lead you
to the paths that the vehicle or person took, so
you can go look for cameras in that area. It's
very helpful and validates the cellular stuff. And the cameras
themselves are very helpful, and nowadays there's numerous cameras everywhere houses,
(30:14):
ring doors, businesses. It's very helpful. And if you can
piece it together correctly and make a timeline, you can
see that car in this case, the white cident traveling
towards the crime scene. That's fantastic evidence.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace Scott Iiker with us.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
As we just reported, he the vehicle, the white Alantra
matching the description of his car, pulls out at Pullman
where he lives.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
It's about ten minutes.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
Away from King Road where the four students were murdered
at Pullman two forty four, heading east State wrote to
seventy toward Moscow three two a m. About twenty minutes later,
it passes Floyd's Cannabis. That's just off two seventy three.
(31:17):
Twenty six cameras at three residences spot the Elantra at
Indian Hills Drive. Okay, that's in Moscow. He's in Moscow
picking up the same white Alantra. Two minutes later three
twenty eight Sunset Mart Moscow records the car turn and
head toward the King Road house.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
Chris mcdona. You and I intimately familiar with that.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
Sunset Mart is at that the place, Chris mcdona, where
a clerk took it upon herself to come through literally
hours of surveillance video and she spots a white Elantra
speeding by and she calls police.
Speaker 14 (31:59):
Yeah, Nancy, and you've been there, You've seen that intersection.
And what's really interesting here is this is the night
of the homicide. I'm going to be really curious to
find out what the cast team discovered not the night
of the homicide, but leading up to it, that's going
to be fascinating information as well.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
At that corner where the Sunset mart is, it's just
a hop, skip and a jump from there to the
King Road address, and there you've got a white a
launch returning heading toward the murder scene.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
Okay, let's pick it up right there. Listen.
Speaker 4 (32:35):
A security camera on the apartment building neighboring eleven twenty
two King Road first records a white sedan at three
thirty am. Over the next thirty four minutes, it circles
the neighborhood at least five times, then parks. At four
oh seven am, prosecutor's right vehicle one exits the frame,
traveling in the direction of the victim's residence. There is
no subsequent activity captured for approximately thirteen minutes. At four
(32:59):
to twenty am, the white Sitan leaves King Wrote at
a high rate of speed and turns west onto Taylor
Avenue to exit the area on the road behind the neighborhood.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
We've seen this before.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
Can't you just imagine this was going to happen, Joshua Ritter.
The jury is going to be sitting there and they're
going to be watching this video, and we saw it
recently in another case we investigated and covered. It's the
case of the so called glam yoga instructor. She wasn't
glamed to me, Kaylin Armstrong, angry about a love rival,
(33:31):
made up a whole love triangle in her head. Then
followed the victim, a young dirt bike racer. Marine followed her,
and you see surveillance of her like a vulture, circling
round and round and round in her black suv. Same
(33:51):
thing here here we are three thirty am. Okay, just
after the white Elantra passes the sunset, mart would say,
is the crow flies that's a mile or so away
from the King Road address. For thirty four minutes it
circles one, two, three, four five. At four seven am,
(34:15):
parks Vehicle one exits the frame, traveling in the direction
of the victim's residence. No activity after that for thirteen minutes.
For twenty am, that white Elantra leaves at a high
rate of speed. Now overlay that Joshua with what Dylan
(34:39):
and Bethany say right based on their timeline, that's exactly
when they spot the intruder in the home just before
four twenty a m. Just as they were about to
head out to get food, and they go, ah, let's
(35:01):
do door dash right there, it all fits together.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
Ritter, Yeah, it's powerful stuff.
Speaker 10 (35:06):
I mean, listen, this is this is going to be
one of the things that the defense is going to
have to deal with most seriously. Because you're right, you
start to line it up the way you did, it
starts to pain a pretty vivid picture for the jury.
What is the defense going to argue? I think they're
going to argue. Listen, this is not horseshoes close. It
doesn't count here. You if you're not able to place
(35:26):
our client, the defendant, at the location, and the closest
you can do is a mile away, well then what
are we dealing with here. We're dealing with a person
who happened to have been driving within a mile of
a crime scene. Does not make him guilty. I realize
the counter arguments to all of this, but I'm saying,
as far as the defense is concerned, it's a mile hold.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
Har Yeah, he's in the neighborhood and he parks close
to the home. The white Lantra is much closer than
a mile.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
It's a one minute.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
Walk from where they car is parked at four seven,
only leaving at.
Speaker 1 (36:04):
A high rate of speed at four twenty.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
The best argument they've got right there is, yeah, it's
a white Alantra, but it's not my guy.
Speaker 1 (36:11):
He happened to.
Speaker 2 (36:12):
Be out in his white Alantra gazing at the moon
and stars, but that's not his Elantra. But it doesn't
end their ridder. This is like him raising his hand
going I did it listen.
Speaker 3 (36:26):
At five twenty six am, a white sedan is next
recorded on surveillance footage at e Ands Services on Johnson
Road in Pullman. Footage at a Pullman sunset mark then
shows the car headed north on State Route two. Seventy.
Cameras on the WSU campus record the vehicle making its
way north near Beasley Coliseum, which is about a mile
from Coburger's student department.
Speaker 7 (36:48):
Brian Coberger's defense team is asking the judge to limit
expert testimony from FBI Special Agent Nicholas Balance, the member
of CAST, a cellular analyst survey team that specializes in
location least on cell phone records. The defense says call
detail records provide partial alibi corroboration. Balance is prepared to
(37:09):
speak about the location of Coburger's cell phone before and
after the student homicides.
Speaker 2 (37:14):
Wow, no wonder the defense wants that suppressed and more listen.
Speaker 3 (37:21):
Jared and Heather Barnhardt work with Celebrate, with extensive experience
in digital forensics. Celebrate forensic specialists use specialized software and
techniques to extract data from electronic devices. They analyzed Coburger's
computer and cell phone data to determine his whereabouts and
activity before and after the murders. They also looked for
signs of tampering or deletion of files. Hitler rules that
(37:44):
the Barnhardt's testimony is admissible during the trial.
Speaker 1 (37:47):
To Scott Iiker, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa? Who did I
hear tampering? Deletion of files?
Speaker 2 (37:54):
You know the last time I cleaned out my text
Never Scott Iiker with me founding member I Cellular Analysis
serve a team, an expert in this, Scott Iiker, what.
Speaker 1 (38:06):
Do they say?
Speaker 6 (38:07):
Well, this is damaging evidence, especially if you're putting any
cellular data that the defendant has along with the phone,
of the camera, stuff of the video and you start
matching up the timelines, very very important evidence that to present.
And I can see why the defense doesn't want it
in because it is damaging this cellular data and the
(38:29):
self right information has been proven time and time again
to be reliable in court. So they judge made the
good decision and I'm glad he found there was no
legal basis to exclude them and he's not throwing them.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
Upon you know too.
Speaker 2 (38:44):
Joe Scott Morgan joining as professor forensics, break it down
for me. Did you hear the words delete tamper with evidence?
Because a jury hears this expert take the stay in
and talk about Coburger potentially deleting or destroying evidence, it's over.
Speaker 1 (39:06):
Why would he destroy evidence if he was innocent.
Speaker 11 (39:09):
It's a thread that runs through this entire case. Remember,
we also have evidence that there was an attempt to
clear out the cachet with the Amazon purchases as well. Nancy,
you see this pattern that's developing here and to this
point about the overlay of the area, it's very compelling.
(39:29):
You know, there's one other piece that we that we
haven't really mentioned. That cell phone actually had pinged back
in that area the next morning. You recall that, and
so almost as a confirmatory drive by perhaps no one
really knows at this point in time, so he may
have returned that morning just to see if there was
(39:52):
any activity around the home. And this goes back to
what we said earlier about the roommates. You've got these
poor kids that are in this place and they're losing
their minds in there. But he wants to casually drive
by and see if anybody is caught wind of this ship.
Speaker 1 (40:08):
You know, Joshua Ritter, you're a veteran trial lawyer.
Speaker 2 (40:11):
We're talking about how he can get out of the
car evid as by claiming, well, yeah, it looks like
my car, but it's not my car, even though it
went all the way back toward less than one mile
from his Pullman address and it left from there as well.
We're talking about cell phone data, whether he deleted data.
But the reality is it boils down to this. His
(40:33):
DNA is on the NFE sheet. It just can't get
away from that. Everything else again is gravy.
Speaker 10 (40:42):
No, you're right, the whole case hinges on that. I
don't even think you have a filed case without that. Well,
and certainly we don't even know if they would ever
even have a suspect without that. So the whole case
where the prosecution comes down to that DNA, and that's
why you saw the defense fight so vigorously to have
it thrown out legally. That failed, and now they're making
(41:03):
attempts to somehow explain it, because without some sort of
innoctant explanation as to why their client's DNA is on
that knife sheet, they've got major problems.
Speaker 13 (41:11):
Now.
Speaker 10 (41:11):
The one avenue that they have here is they keep
talking about this being touched DNA or transferred DNA meaning
DNA that you can't exactly say. Does that mean the suspect,
the person whose DNA is the contributor, actually touched that item,
or was it transferred there by some other object or person,
(41:31):
or was it put there that object where the DNA
was recovered from by someone else. These are the arguments
that it seems like the defense might be exploring in
this case.
Speaker 2 (41:41):
We remember American hero Detangis Service officer Michael Wall La
County Probation passed away in the line of duty fourteen
years with law enforcement. Leays behind a graving daughter Aubrey,
sister Juel Dion Angelique.
Speaker 1 (41:59):
And brother Sylvester.
Speaker 2 (42:01):
American hero officer Michael Wall, Nancy Grace sarting Off goodbye
FA
Host
Nancy Grace
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