September 18, 2025 • 46 mins
In an odd and creepy twist, Bryan Kohberger uses his phone to take selfies he never shares with anyone. The selfie photo shoot takes place inside his Washington State University apartment, standing in front of a closet filled with blue shirts. Shirtless and wearing earbuds, the cowardly killer flexes, poses, and makes a contorted face with an angry grin, showing off his yellow teeth, and at one point he salutes the camera, revealing a cut to the knuckle on the ring finger of his left hand that may have come from his murderous rampage in Moscow.
We also learn as investigators met with classmates, professors, and other university staff, they described Kohberger as creepy and domineering, with one classmate saying Kohberger would be the type of professor who would harass and stalk students. The interviews included individuals from all aspects of college campus life, from classrooms, offices, and hangout spots, and in each case the same result: Kohberger’s mere presence was enough to set people on edge.
When Kohberger shows a “keen interest” in an undergraduate assistant, a WSU faculty member keeps a close watch. She witnesses the future killer standing at her assistant’s desk, directly behind her, looking over her shoulder as she works. Because of Kohberger’s behavior, another professor is asked to escort the assistant to her car after work.
In a class where Kohberger is the teaching assistant, a female student says whenever she looks up, he is staring at her. He rarely speaks to students, but the co-ed says no matter when she would leave the class, he would time his exit to leave when she did and then follow her to her car. Another graduate student says she caught Kohberger “aggressively” staring at her 9 times in one class and followed her after class. She says he always seemed to want to be in “the general area of her and others in the program that didn’t want anything to do with him”....
One female student targeted by Kohberger says the killer trailed her after class and would block her path when she tried to leave conversations with him, and he would stare at her with such intensity and regularity that she began keeping a count of the encounters.It's a pattern that seemed to repeat itself with the murder victims.
Now, newly discovered essays written by Kohberger reveal his plan to get out of jail.
Joining Nancy Grace today:
- Josh Kolsrud - Criminal Defense Attorney and Former Assistant U.S. Attorney, Founder of Kolsrud Law Offices; Facebook and YouTube @KohlsrudLawOffices
- Dr. Shari Schwartz - Forensic Psychologist (Specializing in Capital Mitigation and Victim Advocacy), and Author: "Criminal Behavior" and "Where Law and Psychology Intersect: Issues in Legal Psychology;" X: @TrialDoc
- Chris McDonought -Director at the Cold Case Foundation, Former Homicide Detective, and Host of YouTube Channel, "The Interview Room"
- Joseph Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet", Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan", @JoScottForensic
- Susan Hendricks - Journalist, and Author: “Down the Hill: My Descent into the Double Murder in Delphi;" IG @susan_hendricks X @SusanHendicks
- Dave Mack - Crime Stories Investigative Reporter
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Brian Coburger's hidden essay reveals
a plot to walk free. This essay, found in thousands
of pages of documents in his apartment, is at a
(00:22):
harbinger of things to come. Also, Coburger screaming from behind bars,
I have mental health disorders. Set me free, and tonight
are more Coburger victims emerging. How many are there that
we don't know about? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.
(00:42):
I want to thank you for being with us.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
He was very socially in and speaking on the phone
for hours with his parents every single day.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
He is proud. This is right after the murders, thumbs up,
self aggrandizing smile, all cleaned up.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
He just wants to have power for the people.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
He's a machine of killing machine. Okay, before I get
into the thousands of pages that are being poured over
as we speak, one revealing his plot to get a reversal,
have his plea deal overthrown and guess what it includes
(01:24):
claims of prosecutorial misconduct. But before I can get to that,
I've got to talk to Susan Hendrix joining us about
the creepy selfies, the shirtless selfies, new ones that have
just emerged, exactly. Susan Hendrix joining us, a journalist, investigative reporter,
author of Down the heel My, Descent Into the Double
(01:44):
Murder and Delphi to the control room. I'd like to
see the new selfies. Actually that was a mistatement. I
wouldn't like to see them. I'm gonna have to. Oh
dear lord, I'm gonna have to report on them. Just
hold that. What the hey? What okay? Tell me, Susan,
(02:05):
tell me what this is and why I'm having to
look at coburger without a shirt on, flexing and staring
into the camera. Why is this happening?
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Yeah, they are cringe worthy. And for the company that
looked through his data his self, they found out that.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
He does he actually have his pants pulled down toward
his crotch so I can say more of his belly
button hair.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
Well, you know, it's like in Sports Illustrated magazine, you
know cover the swimsuit is pulled down just a tantalizing
bit too low.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
Is that what he's doing? Ew?
Speaker 2 (02:45):
You, it's gross, it's cringe worthy. If feel sorry for
the families who have to look at that. And I
was looking at each picture, getting grossed out by the way,
but kind of wondering what is he thinking there? He
didn't send these to anyone there for himself. It reminded
me of the mar Psycho that movie Just Loving Himself
is cringeworthy. Discussing very is flexing. It's perplexing seeing all
(03:09):
this evidence. What was on his phone?
Speaker 1 (03:11):
Okay, I think it's deeper than that. Because doctor Sherry
Schwartz joining US forensic psychologists specializing in capital mitigation at
panthermitigation dot com. She is the author of Criminal Behavior
and Where a Law in Psychology intersect. Doctor Sherry, thank
you for being with us. I noticed that in one
(03:31):
of the photos, and I got a lot more important
things to discuss with you, but I had to show
these creepy selfies. And I want you to juxtapose these selfies,
doctor Sherry, with the fact that we know that Gelli
Gonsolvis was stabbed in the face thirty times or more.
(03:54):
Isn't it true, Joe Scott Morgan, Then we h at
hers to even say it, and look at her beautiful face.
Joe Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University and death
investigator isn't it true, Joe Scott that when you have
multiple stab wounds, as you and I've discussed before, that
they begin to overlap because the person's bam bam, bam
(04:14):
bam like that with a in this case of cabar knife,
and those stab wounds hit each other. As I've referred
to it as biting jello. You can't look at the
jello and tell how many bites there were. So we
know a thirty stab wounds Kelly Gonsolvis sustained to her face.
I believe it was Xana that sustained fifty plus stab wounds.
(04:38):
Now now I'm having to look at his shirt list Selfees,
Joe Scott explain overlapping stab wounds at what was done
to Kelly.
Speaker 4 (04:49):
Yeah, well, when you begin to think about this, Nancy,
this also gives you an indication that he is literally
on top of her because the proximity of all these
woes you talked about the kind of interlocking or overlapping
injuries that she sustained. We're talking about Kayley. Where they
are so they are so concentrated that the individual that
(05:11):
is perpetrating this has to have this individual pinned in
one spot where they cannot move because he keeps hitting
the target every single time, over and over and over
and over again. Not only not only is he cutting
her in sizing her, stabbing her, also she's also sustained
(05:33):
multiple blunt force trauma where her facial bones were fractured
as well.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
Nance Okay, guys, we're talking about the stablings only to killing.
Go on, solve us right now, But there's so much more.
Ethan jugular was sliced, there was arterial bleeding all the
way up to the ceiling, and this guy is taking
(05:57):
his shirtless selfies for his own enjoyment. Listen to what
missus Goldsalves told us.
Speaker 5 (06:06):
We actually learned all the truth from her autopsy report,
and we were given her autopsy report on a thumb
drive during the sentence. The investigator walked into the courtroom
that day and said, and we had to arranged that,
and he said, here's the autops report. So in reading
that autopsy report, we found out that Kaylie had been
(06:28):
stabbed twenty four times to her face and head. She
had eleven to her chest neck and like torso area,
and three to her upper extremities.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
So I thought about her eyes too.
Speaker 5 (06:45):
I was like was her eyes stabbed, but somehow or another,
Kaylee's eyes had not been stabbed. Kaylie did have really
bad facial damage. She or some of her teeth were
we're missing, several were broken, and she had two subdural
(07:07):
hematomas to her head, so.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Her nose was broken badly.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
Joe Scott Morgan, Kelly's teeth were stabbed out of her mouth.
And did you see Steve Gonsolve as her father at
the end of that when when they were speaking with
us a few days ago, he as his wife is speaking.
I don't know how she even speaks about it. What
(07:36):
strength this woman has. He looks like he just wants
to take the camera and rip the head off. Just
the anger seething in them. And do you blame them?
Her teeth were stabbed out of her mouth.
Speaker 4 (07:53):
No, you're talking about this child's daddy, So let that
sink in. He I can dollars to donuts. I guarantee
m to you. He wants to reach through that camera
and grab somebody, and ain't one of us. It's the
guy that's currently housed in Idaho Correctional Facility. And I
can understand why because Nancy the brutality and not just
(08:15):
Cayley's death, but in all of these deaths is pretty
much unimaginable. You don't send your kids off to college
and expect them to return to you in a casket.
It just it doesn't work that way. It's the most
disgusting thing on the face of the planet. And this
guy was given this guy I'm not going to say
(08:35):
his name. I refuse. You can't make me say his name.
This guy was given so much latitude leading up and
now all of this evidence is coming forward revealing how
brutal he was. The timeline leading up to everything, and look,
even DNA in this case is far more than we
ever expected.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
There was a trail here, so much evidence. Joe Scott,
let me see j Just Scott another thing which I'm
going to get to, but I had to show these
selfies of this guy preening in front of the camera.
You do know that he has found a way to
appeal his guilty plea, and we uncovered it in his essays.
(09:17):
But not only that, I want to ste you on
this for a moment. He's now claiming he has all
these mental health issues and should be retried or set free,
and one of them is an eating disorder. Okay, hold
that thought, Doctor Sherry Schwartz. Back to you, joining US
forensics expert psychologist, Doctor Sherry Schwartz. His obsession with American psycho.
(09:45):
I don't get it, but can I talk to you
about his preening in front of the camera and flexing
and what it means. It's like Monk. Did you ever
see Monk? Monk only wore a certain he's a brilliant
homicide investigator. He only wore one type of shirt every day.
I think it was a pale blue button down, just
(10:07):
like in this case. Occasionally Coburg will go crazy and
we're a white button down. But that said, they're lined
up behind him and some of the shots. What is
this revealing to you? Because the crime scene is blood soaked,
it looks like a Jackson Pollock. The closet and the
(10:30):
home where he takes these pictures is like bleached clean,
and there's this freaky row of all blue button down
shirts behind him. What is that, doctor Sherry.
Speaker 6 (10:44):
I mean a part of it could be his fascination
with some level of fame, even if it is something
he'll keep internally to feel better about himself. That he's
just like Christian vale in American Psycho. But he'll do
it better and not get caught. We know how that
worked out. These selfies are disturbing because we know that
(11:05):
they're not being sent to anyone. They would be disturbing
if they're being sent to someone, but.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
In this case, these are for him. And so it
suggested to me that he has.
Speaker 6 (11:14):
Some sort of internal dialogue going on where he's fascinated
with this idea of got.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
Got to Sherry, got to Sherry. Wait, wait, I want
you to look at the screen right now. Okay, Susan Hendricks,
I'm going to get Schwartz's analysis of this. But he
is saluting the camera. Now, is this particular shot this
was taken after the murders, correct Susan Hendricks.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
It absolutely was. And you see that on his knuckle
there the injury.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
You know, it's almost as if just Scott speaking of
the military, he's saying job complete done and saluting.
Speaker 4 (11:55):
Yeah. Yeah, he is offering up this half assed salute
that is doing. But what's more significant there is this
abraided area on his knuckle. Nancy, that's key. This thing
looks like it's in a state of resolve, but it's
still relatively fresh in this in this image, the edges
(12:15):
from my appearance, from my perspective right now is kind
of dried out. But yeah, how do you how do
you explain that? Look, we get things all the time
on our hands, people at work, you know, with their hands.
This guy's a PhD student, Nancy, and doing domainial labor,
all right, So we have to begin to think what
other kind of injuries did did he have that he
(12:36):
was presenting with? Did anybody else see anything else on
the surface of his skin? And you know, I begin
to think back, we've just discussed the brutality of this
multiple homicide, this butchery. He's got to have some injury somewhere.
There's something because you know, when you're using a knife
like this over and over again, you're also using I
(13:00):
think he used it as a bludgeon as well, where
he could flip it over and use the end of
the knife, and that's going to involve his fist. And
even if he's gloved, you're still going to get these
little injuries like that through the glove, even through a
latex glove, because there's an abraided area. There's a friction
that occurs when you strike something, and that would that would.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
Potentially let me throw this to Josh colesrude. Josh Colsrud's
joining us right now, Come on, defense attorney, former US
attorney founder Coulsrud Law Offices. What do you do when
you're a client after the murders and we know he
committed the murders because he's pled guilty, there's no doubt left,
(13:45):
and he has on a pair it looks like black
klingy tights pull down, I would say, almost to his
pubic hair. Dare I even think of that? Okay, yeah,
thank you? With a cut to his finger, and this
is what he's doing. You know those would come into evidence.
(14:08):
How disgusted do you believe that your rs would be
if they had seen that? This is just part of
the evidence the prosecution hid from the victims' families before
he entered that deal behind their backs. What about it
calls rude?
Speaker 7 (14:23):
Well, first off, I think we can all agree that mister.
Speaker 8 (14:26):
Coberger is a cold blooded killer.
Speaker 7 (14:30):
However, as a former prosecutor, looking at these selfies, you
know a selfie is not a smoking gun. In twenty
twenty five, everybody takes them. If a selfie equaled vanity,
then half of America.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Okay, wait a minute, but put him up? Put him up? Well,
where do you think you are? Do you think you're
in pre K right now? Are you a nursery school?
Look around. You can't just say something like that and
not expect to get caught on the carpet. Do you
take shirtless selfies? I'm just curious, Josh, do you stand
in front of the mirror with your pants pulled down
(15:06):
to your crotch and buff all up and take a
do you?
Speaker 7 (15:13):
I'd like to know if I was in college and
I had an iPhone, which I didn't when I was
in college, but if I did, I'm sure that I
would have, as would all of my friends and all
of my girlfriends.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
Then is that a no, you don't? As you doesn't.
I don't you take shirtless selfies where you're all like
clinched up?
Speaker 7 (15:36):
You know?
Speaker 8 (15:37):
I wouldn't say that. It would be unusual to do that.
Speaker 7 (15:41):
You know, sometimes when you do the track of how
you look when you're working out to be like, all right,
I want to take a picture of how I look
now and compare it to myself a couple of months
from now to see if I have the improvement.
Speaker 8 (15:55):
So I think that there are advantages to taking selfies.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Okay, you know, just cut the crap. Okay, you don't,
you don't McDonough help him. Chris McDonough joining me, Director
Cole Case Foundation, homicide detective who has scoured this crime scene.
He started the interview room on YouTube. Please. The point
is not a shirtless selfie. The point is he's doing
this right after the murders, right around the time of
(16:22):
the murders. That's where his head is. Those four students
lost their lives as part of his vanity project.
Speaker 9 (16:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 10 (16:30):
Absolutely, And you know, just look at the salute. The
salute is a cub scout salute. I mean he's got
two fingers put together with the injury on his hand,
and it just goes to show, you know, how empty
this guy is. There's nothing there. I mean, these pictures
look like they just came out on the movie Zoolander.
(16:50):
I mean, he has been projecting this persona for so
long and now the crime is finished, and now he's
trying to gain power as a result of look what
I have done. And these are disgusting, but it goes
in in concert with the type of personality he is.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
Colsrud I would like to hear, although you will neither
admit or deny your own shortless selfies. That said, how
would you get that suppressed? Because you do not want
the jury to say that.
Speaker 7 (17:27):
I would argue that it is unfairly prejudicial pursuant to
Rule four h three.
Speaker 8 (17:34):
Rules of Evidence.
Speaker 7 (17:36):
It doesn't show that he has motive, it doesn't show
that it's a confession. It's not even sent to any person.
It is solely for himself. It was found on his
phone subsequent to when after he was arrested. And if
I'm the prosecutor in the case, the only way that
I can think I could get this in would be
(17:59):
to show injury like you showed on his knuckles. But
the fact that he's shirtless or portrays Christian Bale and
American psycho. Unless there's some writings that he has where
he says I want to be like American psycho, and
then you can juxtapose that picture.
Speaker 8 (18:17):
Maybe, but it's going to.
Speaker 7 (18:19):
Be a tough sell to the judge, and I think
that would be precluded.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Hold on, Josh CALSRD, do you want a lot of cases,
But let me remind you that evs can come in
front of the jury to show motive, course of conduct,
frame of mind, intent, the mental state at the time
of the incident. These selfies will come in for that.
And as far as did he write about American Psycho,
(18:48):
he had a cash treasure trove of American Psycho videos
and photos, so he didn't have to write about it.
He was looking at him and doing the Lord only
what as he was looking at them. And also the
timing of these photos is very important, just before and
(19:08):
after the murders goes to whether the murders were sexually motivated.
We also know, don't we don't we Susan Hendrix that
found on his phone were many many searches of raping women,
having sex with women when they were comatos. That was
(19:30):
one of his sex fantasies. That's what he expected to
find the night he went into eleven twenty two, King wrote,
but that's not what he found and they all died.
So all of this fits together with a sex related motive,
doesn't it well?
Speaker 2 (19:48):
One hundred percent? Nancy. And as we were talking about
it twenty twenty two, think about that house on King wrote,
how much fun they had They posted on social media selfies.
I believe that Brian Koberger not only stopped the students
that he killed. I believe he was stalking others. And
I believe he stopped them online too, So now is
he mimicking them now I could take selfies. I believe
(20:09):
he was jealous of their friendships, and I believe that's
what he was doing there Washington State. Planning this murder on.
Speaker 11 (20:17):
A location of your emergency.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
I don't think he's happen in our hotel.
Speaker 11 (20:22):
You don't know what what is address of the emergency?
What is the rest of the address?
Speaker 1 (20:35):
Oh, King two Roads, Okay?
Speaker 11 (20:38):
And there's not a house for an apartment, it's a house.
Can you repeat theadress to make sure that I have
it right.
Speaker 8 (20:46):
I'll talk to you guys. We're we have a delight,
so we're next to them.
Speaker 11 (20:51):
I need someone to repeat the address for raification.
Speaker 10 (20:54):
The address one one to two Kings.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
Rugs Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 10 (21:09):
It's a social awkward us.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
He doesn't know how to relate to other people. He's
alienated himself.
Speaker 12 (21:16):
Nobody wants to be around the guy, let alone give
them their telephone number and address to be added as
a contact to his phone.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
Because I don't think he feels much at all. All
the bloody clothes, the bloody ever is all gone, and
there he is songs up. Guys, I did it.
Speaker 8 (21:35):
This is his dissertation.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
This is what he was.
Speaker 8 (21:38):
Preparing for the whole time.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
This is why he was able to pull it off.
This guy Kiberger left a trail a mile wide, and
the prosecution hid all of these facts from the victims'
families and the public and then took a deal informing
them about the play deal after it had already been accepted.
(22:01):
And isn't it true, Josh Colesry, veteran trial lawyer, that
once a plea dealers offered and accepted, there's no going back.
Speaker 7 (22:09):
Yes, once a please accepted, it is ironclad, almost no
appealable rights, except for under three circumstances. A in effective
assist as a council is one, A number two prospratorial
and misconduct, or number three a manifest injustice.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
Now what we are learning is Susan Hendricks joining US
investigative journalist who has been there on the scene from
the get go. He is writing and writing and writing it.
I'm going to quote some of his writings that we've
uncovered in thousands of pages that were taken from his
Washington State apartment. The confessed killer writes at length about
(22:48):
how procedural injustice in the American system has produced many
false confessions quote false guilty please manifest due to a
lack of judicial oversight, blaming the judge and plea deals
that seemed to compel the defendant to enter them force
the defendant to plead guilty under oath. If defendants failed
(23:11):
to accept a plea bargain, he writes, prosecutors will seek
this trick discharges. Some people plead guilty to crimes they
didn't commit, as to choose the lesser of two evils.
So we've got him blaming the judge the system. Now,
he says, quote eyewitness misidentification is an issue and therefore
(23:38):
we need increasing video surveillance, which is interesting since he
picked a home that had no surveillance cameras. He goes
on Susan Hendrix to blame prosecutorial misconduct. He describes unethical
(24:01):
behavior where people played guilty when they shouldn't. Have Another
seven page single space paper we discovered refers to a
gruesome stabbing murder case. His words, not mine. Blood pulled
around the victim and was spattered on the walls and
(24:22):
television near the victim's body. He describes how the victim
was found, the grizzly details. He goes on and on
and on. Okay, explain to me, Susan Hendrix, this plot
revealing Coburger's alleged plans to walk free to get out
(24:48):
of the plea deal.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Absolutely, and I believe after reading that that he had
planned this every single day, even the plea he planned.
I believe this was all that he thought about, all
that he did. And Nancy, I listened to your heartfelt
conversation with Kelly's parents. The laughable part here is they
might have a case against the prosecutor, not Brian Coober Cober.
(25:11):
It's not going to work here that they were if
anything nice to him. I remember hearing the judge say, oh,
you don't have to stand up. This was during the
plead deal and it infuriated Steve Gonzalveez. So here he
doesn't have a case, but I think he was ready
for it. He was using his students to get in
their minds and think of covering everything. But they did
know what color car he was driving, and he did
(25:32):
leave DNA there, so it didn't work out in his favor,
but the prosecution a case against them not going to
work here.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
You know, writing about procedural injustice, and this has been
uncovered now. In fact, out of thousands of pages of
documents that he kept meticulously, he is essentially hatching a
plot to get his plea is guilty pleate reversed. He
(25:59):
refers to to lack of judicial oversight, blaming a judge
for taking a plea that was a misguided plea. This
is a real dig to Dave Mack joining US Crime
Stories investigative reporter, a real dig at the judge claiming
(26:19):
prosecutorial misconduct would be overlooked by the judge. And what
about Dave matt claiming false guilty? Please, where people are
between a rock and a hard spot. If they don't
plead guilty in his case to life, then they'll get
the death penalty. So therefore, what he pled to something
he didn't do. That's what he's saying.
Speaker 13 (26:40):
That's exactly what he's saying. He's laying this out there
ahead of time as to why he would plead guilty.
Eye didn't have a choice. I had to because they
told me if I didn't do this this was going
to happen. But Nancy, you pointed out something during the
hearing where the judge was actually asking very p civic questions,
(27:01):
and for.
Speaker 4 (27:01):
Those of us who are not attorneys, we didn't.
Speaker 13 (27:03):
Quite understand why the judge was going so far with
his Q and A here, And the whole point was
the judge was making sure everything that Coburger was claiming
would stick up so he couldn't come back later and
try to pull this. It was a magnificent job by
the judge in that moment, but he was obviously planning.
(27:25):
He was going the long game here, Nancy, from the
very beginning.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
You know another thing, Guys, you were seeing the victims
that lost their lives that early early morning, in the
wee hours of the morning, when Coburger entered their home
stealthily expecting to find women asleep. We believed that he
could rape, and instead he found them up in a
live ordering door dash eating, texting, and it was literally
(27:50):
a bloodbath. Chris mcduonn ad joining US veteran homicide detective
and star of the Interview Room. Chris, this is what
I would always do, and I mean for every single
guilty plea I ever took. I'd swear the defendant end
under oath on the Bible and make them state. I
(28:14):
would ask questions to which they would respond, And one
of them, after I swore them in, was are you
entering a guilty plea today too, let's just pretend murder. Yes,
And have you been promised anything or threatened with anything
in order for you to plead guilty today? And they
(28:35):
would go no. And then I would say, are you
pleading guilty of your own free will without any hope
of gain? Has anybody threatened you coerced you to plead
guilty today? And then they would answer no, So then
they're under oath. I did not hear that happen during
(28:59):
this guilty plea? Is I mean this? If this didn't happen,
I mean everybody in the county jail would walk free
because they would say, oh, I was afraid I would
get a worse sentence if I went to trial. I
really didn't do it.
Speaker 14 (29:12):
Totals yeah, absolutely, Nancy, And I recall you, you know,
saying exactly that when he didn't tell the story and
the court let him, you know, just basically, you know,
go to jail, go to prison.
Speaker 10 (29:26):
But here here's a really other interesting thought to dovetail
in to what you're saying here. If we go back
to those pictures just for a minute, just to think
about the duality of this guy's personality.
Speaker 8 (29:37):
And look at the.
Speaker 10 (29:38):
One where he's at the lake where he's in the shirt,
and you look at the mountain range behind him.
Speaker 1 (29:44):
You know, you know what that mountain range is.
Speaker 10 (29:46):
That's Mount Ravery Neerk And he who's famous that one
right there, who's famous for that area, Ted Bundy. And
if we take a look at his phone and the
obsession that he had with serial killing. And there's another
one here where there's a rock behind him in one
side he's studying right there that one. Look at the
(30:08):
right rock. It says slus. This guy hates women. So
in one part of his personality he's projecting in his
public persona, Hey, I'm going to try to get out
of this. And the second real part in his hidden
personality is I'm going to kill women.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
You know what, Chris mcdonoy, You just put chills down
my spine to think this guy walking around amongst all
those beautiful young co eds. I mean, it was just hunting.
They were his prey and now, these writings found in
one of his essays show he knows how to go
(30:49):
about getting a guilty plea overturned. He does, He's researched it,
he's written about it. And believe you me, Josh Colesrude,
former assistant US attorney now criminal defense attorney. Josh. You
can blood, sweat and tears, you can give it all
(31:12):
to your client. But then when they're behind bars, you
go on about your life. You go to your next client,
and they're sitting there, gnashing their teeth and twisting their tail.
All they have to think about behind bars is how
am I going to get out of here? How am
I going to get that plea reversed? That is what
he is doing right now. And it doesn't matter how
(31:36):
hard you worked or what a great job you did,
you will go right down the crapper. You will. The
attorney will be sacrificed with an ineffective assistance of counsel.
And I heard Chris mcdonna state the judge let this
plea happen. Well, yes he did, but you know you
can't really stop a blind plea. But it was the
prosecutor's duty to ask those questions, make sure they were
(32:00):
asked put the defense under oath and make sure he
was pleading by his own volition, not out of fear,
threat or coercion. But isn't it true clients, no matter
what you do for them, they will claim ineffective assistance
of counsel to get out of jail. That's all he's
thinking about right now. Cole's rude.
Speaker 8 (32:20):
That's absolutely correct.
Speaker 7 (32:21):
The most common appeal from a plea agreement is the IAC,
the ineffective assistance of counsel claim.
Speaker 8 (32:29):
And what he has to.
Speaker 7 (32:31):
Show is that his lawyer missed something that was very obvious.
It was a standard deviation from what was expected. And
here I think he's going to have some difficulty because
his attorney did a great job of getting him out
of the death penalty. You know, that was the attorney's
(32:52):
main motivation at the time. Also, mister Coberger under oath
admitted to these So I think that his angle right
here is going to be prosecutorial misconduct. He's going to
say that the prosecutor hid evidence, that the prosecutor used
controversial DNA technology IgG technology that was illegal, and I
(33:19):
think that's.
Speaker 8 (33:19):
Going to be where his angle is going to be
in this case.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
The plea deal, the infamous plea deal taken by the
prosecutor after so much evidence, so many facts were hidden
from the families. Coburger as we go to air tonight, plotting, scheming, planning,
a way to get that plea reversed. What were they hiding.
Speaker 9 (33:43):
Just telling us our child was stabbed brutally?
Speaker 10 (33:47):
You know how many times?
Speaker 5 (33:48):
How many times? We just learned the day of or
the day before the sentencing, how many times Kailee had
been stabbed.
Speaker 1 (33:56):
Wait a minute, I am stunned because she was stabbed
so many times they could not identify her, and you
just learned about that when the plea was set to
go down.
Speaker 5 (34:12):
We learned about it after the plea the day before
the sentence seing guys should.
Speaker 9 (34:16):
Have been touched in the face. He was a creep
and he's a disgusting creeple he is a creep.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
State away from him, anti woman, misogynist, stalking behavior thirteen
and flanks where he would intimidate for stalk female students,
and so much more. Tonight, are their more victims emerging?
If we're hearing about these victims, how many other victims
(34:43):
are out there? And what is the severity of what
happened to them? Joining me in allstar peal makes sense
of what we are learning to. Women tell police they
suspect Coburger was stalking them while he was at Washington
State University. Straight out to Susan Hendrix, these women state
(35:03):
that they spotted Coburger at their employment over and over
and over, to the point other coworkers would warn them,
he's here, he's here. Then one of them goes home.
She is semi nude changing clothes, and someone comes to
her window and either taps on the window or hits
(35:25):
the window, and she realizes someone's watching her. And I'm
going to go to you in just a second, Chris McDonough,
that's Chris mcdonna. I have and I have looked at
the scene over and over, and that's exactly what Coburger
was doing here, and he had a great vantage point
to stare into the girl's bedroom windows. But not only that.
One of them has a husband, and during one of
these stalking episodes, the husband comes home and sees a
(35:48):
white car speeding away similar to Brian Coburger's. So we
know there are other victims. Tell me about these two.
Speaker 2 (35:57):
Yeah, there is a clear pattern here. One of the
students worked at the university bookstore. He went in. She
never gave him her name, and he called her by name.
He was obviously looking into who she was and would
just stare at her. Another one worked in the criminology department,
and she said she caught eye contact with him out
of her window, which means he was staring directly in.
(36:19):
She ran and hid in the bathroom. She even went
to Brian Coberger and said, I'm Leslian, there's nothing that's
going to happen here. Didn't deter him. This was happening
over and over again, and I believe he was looking
for someone to murder and he found that sadly on
King Road. But I remember Steve Gonzalez telling you, Nancy,
that there were red flags everywhere with this guy, thirteen
(36:40):
incidents that they knew.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
Of, and the school, Washington State did nothing. Could you retail.
Very slowly they encounter where the woman, the victim, saw
him looking at her through the window and she ran
and hid in the bathroom.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
Yeah, she was in the classroom and she could feel,
you know when you feel someone kind of staring at you,
and looked at him, made eye contact looking out the window.
And she said the only way that that would occur
is if he was looking directly where she was. I
believe she was the target here. Then she sees him
come in the building and she runs and hides in
(37:16):
the bathroom. That's how threatening she thought he was, that
she had to hide. There are people, Maybe you don't
want to see it work. And he said, oh, you
don't run and hide in the bathroom. And you mentioned
the husband. There were footprints up to that window, and
she said it was clear, or her husband said it
was clear. That he kind of backed away because there
was only one set of footprints. And one of the
(37:39):
women said this, Nancy, it's so pressing that nothing seemed
to deter him. He wasn't bothered by.
Speaker 1 (37:44):
Rejection crime stories with Nancy Gray Dotter Sherry Schwartz joining
US forensic psychologist author Offware, a law and psychology intersect,
Doctor Sherry, I've had so many cases. This is anik Jodel.
(38:08):
I don't have a statistic where it would be. I'd
be prosecuting a rape or a murder, maybe a serial rape,
and I would look back in the suspect's history, way
back way back. I would find peeping tom and it
happens so often that I started talking to people in
the office, you know, the few people that I confided
(38:30):
in there. Have you noticed that so many of these
murder perps and or rape perpse have been peeping Tom's
It's just the beginning. That's one thing I want to
throw at you, But first I want to explore what
Susan Hendricks just said. Gosh, this is reminding me so
much a trying cases, because before I would put say
(38:51):
you on the stand, I would meet with you ad
nauseum to figure out what it all meant. When someone
a grown lady young in her twenties, but still a
grown lady runs and hides. This woman is not fanciful.
(39:11):
She's got a job, she's going to school, she's running household.
She ran and hid from Coburger. She ran in the bathroom,
shut the door and locked it. That's an instinct. That's
why we are alive today, because we have instincts and
we act on them. Why did this young lady see
(39:34):
Coburger and run and hide in the bathroom.
Speaker 6 (39:37):
Well, she either had prior interactions with him, or saw
him around, or something about that particular interaction, which is
completely nonverbal. Something told her her instinct, her fight or
flight response said flee, get out, go hide. This is
somebody who has the potential to cause you danger and
(39:59):
these are things that she and be underestimated when people
have reactions like that.
Speaker 1 (40:02):
And of course, just Cole's rude, your veteran trial lawyer,
this incident may or may not have come into trial
as a similar transaction, but it speaks to me. It
means something to me that this woman, other women were
so instinctively afraid of coburger they would hide. Just wait
(40:27):
till I tell you about what a mother hen did
in the criminal procedure department at WSU. Just wait, you're
gonna freak. But that means something. But it would never
have come into evidence, would it? In a nutshell calls rude?
Speaker 8 (40:42):
Well, and you're absolutely right, Nancy.
Speaker 7 (40:45):
In violent cases, judges do allow sometimes some type of
character evidence. And what this could show is a pattern
or a pattern evidence that could go towards motive later on,
that this defendant was learning how to be a predator.
(41:07):
He was learning how to case female victims, how to
hide his tracks, how to target certain female victims. However,
the evidence has cannot be unserved for judicial which is
what the argument would be in this case.
Speaker 12 (41:28):
A Washington State University faculty member says her maternal instinct
took over when she wouldn't allow a female student to
be left alone in an office on campus with Coburger.
She keeps herself busy until he left, and says it
wasn't anything specific about his behavior that prompted a response,
it was just a feeling she had at the time.
After Coberger left, she told the student to email her
(41:50):
with the subject line nine to one one if she
ever needed help.
Speaker 1 (41:54):
J Scott Morgan joining US Professor Forensics, Chanital State University.
A faculty was so concerned about Coburger stalking this particular
and I've got look at this. All of these are
other instances of him scaring women, but this one. A
faculty member was so concerned that she told the girl
(42:16):
just text me nine on one if he comes back.
Look that is grounded in something. All of these women
are not hysterical. And you remember that other home invasion
they have not yet attributed to Coburger, which leads me too,
this is not a quantum leap of faith. What else
is out there? What else is out there?
Speaker 4 (42:38):
Nancy? I'm in my twenty first year of academia this year.
And let me tell you something. When you're in an environment,
in an academic environment, and you have freshmen that are
coming in, returning sophomores, juniors, and certainly those that are
about to graduate, they are the most vulnerable when it
comes to a faculty member. And look, I know he
was a TA, but he's been given charge over these individuals,
(43:02):
over these students, to instruct them. Nancy, I submit to
you that this whole game about the PhD thing, this
is a means to an end. He saw this as
shooting fish in a barrel because he knew that he
would have instantaneous access to some of the most vulnerable people,
those that want a degree, those that want to be
(43:23):
successful in the university. He could do and say anything
to them because he perceived himself as having power. And
it's a terrible situation to send your kids to the
university and have a monster like this in this environment.
And let me tell you one more thing if you
like that one. I think that WSU got hoodwinked into
(43:46):
hiring this guy. That's what I really think. I don't
think they did a deep dive on his background at all.
And you know, you think about the position that this
university put these kids in because they gave him charge
over these kids. Hadn't it Hadn't it ever struck you
as odd that he didn't get along with his supervisors.
(44:08):
You know why, because his purpose was not to be
there as an academic. His purpose was to be there
as a predator, Nancy, you know.
Speaker 1 (44:16):
Following up on that, Chris McDonough joining me, former homicide detective.
I don't know if you or if anybody on the
panel ever had this experience, but over and over and
over and over, I would see cases that had morphed,
had graduated into rape, serial rate and or murder where
it all started with a freak peeping Tom. He would
(44:36):
be a Peeping Tom and it would be dismissed. Peeping
Tom paid twenty five dollars Peeping Tom order violation, citation,
and it would go suddenly. It would be more and
more serious until it culminated and landed as an indictment
on my desk to prosecute. Have you ever noticed that
starting with Peeping Tom?
Speaker 10 (44:53):
Yeah, absolutely, that voyeurism in of itself is the fuel
that helped fan the fantasy. And remember Nancy when we
were there. And if you look at this, I mean,
this picture right here tells us everything we need to know.
The intensity of this particular picture. This is the intensity
(45:15):
that he is operating with while voyeurism. And if we
think about the fuel that he is now operating on,
it's all of that intense non consensual pornography. And think
about that him sitting in the backyard of those four kids'
house and has a fish bowl type of view. And
(45:39):
that's why I have always been fascinated by that one
cylinder block underneath the window of the back bedroom at
that house. I saw him in my mind through my experience,
just sitting there and just waiting for those kids to
fall asleep and then his fantasy starts to play out,
(46:00):
because that's what was driving him.
Speaker 1 (46:01):
And you're right, Chris mcdonah, he wanted sleeping slash comatose
women to rate based on his own computer searches. All
of this kept away from the victim's family. This and
more tonight Coburger behind bars plotting his jailhouse exit. Legally,
(46:26):
listen to what Steve and Christy gounsolve Is say about
this plea deal.
Speaker 9 (46:31):
For me, it was outrage because my daughter was fighting
up to her very last breath.
Speaker 1 (46:35):
Over and over.
Speaker 9 (46:35):
She kept trying to get out of that bed and
he was just drilling her. And she's fighting for her
last breath. And I got this old Santa Claus who's
just thrown out of White Towl, just saying, oh, let's
just make it all go away.
Speaker 1 (46:48):
Nancy Gray signing off, goodbye friend,
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Brian Coburger's hidden essay reveals
a plot to walk free. This essay, found in thousands
of pages of documents in his apartment, is at a
(00:22):
harbinger of things to come. Also, Coburger screaming from behind bars,
I have mental health disorders. Set me free, and tonight
are more Coburger victims emerging. How many are there that
we don't know about? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.
(00:42):
I want to thank you for being with us.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
He was very socially in and speaking on the phone
for hours with his parents every single day.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
He is proud. This is right after the murders, thumbs up,
self aggrandizing smile, all cleaned up.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
He just wants to have power for the people.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
He's a machine of killing machine. Okay, before I get
into the thousands of pages that are being poured over
as we speak, one revealing his plot to get a reversal,
have his plea deal overthrown and guess what it includes
(01:24):
claims of prosecutorial misconduct. But before I can get to that,
I've got to talk to Susan Hendrix joining us about
the creepy selfies, the shirtless selfies, new ones that have
just emerged, exactly. Susan Hendrix joining us, a journalist, investigative reporter,
author of Down the heel My, Descent Into the Double
(01:44):
Murder and Delphi to the control room. I'd like to
see the new selfies. Actually that was a mistatement. I
wouldn't like to see them. I'm gonna have to. Oh
dear lord, I'm gonna have to report on them. Just
hold that. What the hey? What okay? Tell me, Susan,
(02:05):
tell me what this is and why I'm having to
look at coburger without a shirt on, flexing and staring
into the camera. Why is this happening?
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Yeah, they are cringe worthy. And for the company that
looked through his data his self, they found out that.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
He does he actually have his pants pulled down toward
his crotch so I can say more of his belly
button hair.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
Well, you know, it's like in Sports Illustrated magazine, you
know cover the swimsuit is pulled down just a tantalizing
bit too low.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
Is that what he's doing? Ew?
Speaker 2 (02:45):
You, it's gross, it's cringe worthy. If feel sorry for
the families who have to look at that. And I
was looking at each picture, getting grossed out by the way,
but kind of wondering what is he thinking there? He
didn't send these to anyone there for himself. It reminded
me of the mar Psycho that movie Just Loving Himself
is cringeworthy. Discussing very is flexing. It's perplexing seeing all
(03:09):
this evidence. What was on his phone?
Speaker 1 (03:11):
Okay, I think it's deeper than that. Because doctor Sherry
Schwartz joining US forensic psychologists specializing in capital mitigation at
panthermitigation dot com. She is the author of Criminal Behavior
and Where a Law in Psychology intersect. Doctor Sherry, thank
you for being with us. I noticed that in one
(03:31):
of the photos, and I got a lot more important
things to discuss with you, but I had to show
these creepy selfies. And I want you to juxtapose these selfies,
doctor Sherry, with the fact that we know that Gelli
Gonsolvis was stabbed in the face thirty times or more.
(03:54):
Isn't it true, Joe Scott Morgan, Then we h at
hers to even say it, and look at her beautiful face.
Joe Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University and death
investigator isn't it true, Joe Scott that when you have
multiple stab wounds, as you and I've discussed before, that
they begin to overlap because the person's bam bam, bam
(04:14):
bam like that with a in this case of cabar knife,
and those stab wounds hit each other. As I've referred
to it as biting jello. You can't look at the
jello and tell how many bites there were. So we
know a thirty stab wounds Kelly Gonsolvis sustained to her face.
I believe it was Xana that sustained fifty plus stab wounds.
(04:38):
Now now I'm having to look at his shirt list Selfees,
Joe Scott explain overlapping stab wounds at what was done
to Kelly.
Speaker 4 (04:49):
Yeah, well, when you begin to think about this, Nancy,
this also gives you an indication that he is literally
on top of her because the proximity of all these
woes you talked about the kind of interlocking or overlapping
injuries that she sustained. We're talking about Kayley. Where they
are so they are so concentrated that the individual that
(05:11):
is perpetrating this has to have this individual pinned in
one spot where they cannot move because he keeps hitting
the target every single time, over and over and over
and over again. Not only not only is he cutting
her in sizing her, stabbing her, also she's also sustained
(05:33):
multiple blunt force trauma where her facial bones were fractured
as well.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
Nance Okay, guys, we're talking about the stablings only to killing.
Go on, solve us right now, But there's so much more.
Ethan jugular was sliced, there was arterial bleeding all the
way up to the ceiling, and this guy is taking
(05:57):
his shirtless selfies for his own enjoyment. Listen to what
missus Goldsalves told us.
Speaker 5 (06:06):
We actually learned all the truth from her autopsy report,
and we were given her autopsy report on a thumb
drive during the sentence. The investigator walked into the courtroom
that day and said, and we had to arranged that,
and he said, here's the autops report. So in reading
that autopsy report, we found out that Kaylie had been
(06:28):
stabbed twenty four times to her face and head. She
had eleven to her chest neck and like torso area,
and three to her upper extremities.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
So I thought about her eyes too.
Speaker 5 (06:45):
I was like was her eyes stabbed, but somehow or another,
Kaylee's eyes had not been stabbed. Kaylie did have really
bad facial damage. She or some of her teeth were
we're missing, several were broken, and she had two subdural
(07:07):
hematomas to her head, so.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Her nose was broken badly.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
Joe Scott Morgan, Kelly's teeth were stabbed out of her mouth.
And did you see Steve Gonsolve as her father at
the end of that when when they were speaking with
us a few days ago, he as his wife is speaking.
I don't know how she even speaks about it. What
(07:36):
strength this woman has. He looks like he just wants
to take the camera and rip the head off. Just
the anger seething in them. And do you blame them?
Her teeth were stabbed out of her mouth.
Speaker 4 (07:53):
No, you're talking about this child's daddy, So let that
sink in. He I can dollars to donuts. I guarantee
m to you. He wants to reach through that camera
and grab somebody, and ain't one of us. It's the
guy that's currently housed in Idaho Correctional Facility. And I
can understand why because Nancy the brutality and not just
(08:15):
Cayley's death, but in all of these deaths is pretty
much unimaginable. You don't send your kids off to college
and expect them to return to you in a casket.
It just it doesn't work that way. It's the most
disgusting thing on the face of the planet. And this
guy was given this guy I'm not going to say
(08:35):
his name. I refuse. You can't make me say his name.
This guy was given so much latitude leading up and
now all of this evidence is coming forward revealing how
brutal he was. The timeline leading up to everything, and look,
even DNA in this case is far more than we
ever expected.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
There was a trail here, so much evidence. Joe Scott,
let me see j Just Scott another thing which I'm
going to get to, but I had to show these
selfies of this guy preening in front of the camera.
You do know that he has found a way to
appeal his guilty plea, and we uncovered it in his essays.
(09:17):
But not only that, I want to ste you on
this for a moment. He's now claiming he has all
these mental health issues and should be retried or set free,
and one of them is an eating disorder. Okay, hold
that thought, Doctor Sherry Schwartz. Back to you, joining US
forensics expert psychologist, Doctor Sherry Schwartz. His obsession with American psycho.
(09:45):
I don't get it, but can I talk to you
about his preening in front of the camera and flexing
and what it means. It's like Monk. Did you ever
see Monk? Monk only wore a certain he's a brilliant
homicide investigator. He only wore one type of shirt every day.
I think it was a pale blue button down, just
(10:07):
like in this case. Occasionally Coburg will go crazy and
we're a white button down. But that said, they're lined
up behind him and some of the shots. What is
this revealing to you? Because the crime scene is blood soaked,
it looks like a Jackson Pollock. The closet and the
(10:30):
home where he takes these pictures is like bleached clean,
and there's this freaky row of all blue button down
shirts behind him. What is that, doctor Sherry.
Speaker 6 (10:44):
I mean a part of it could be his fascination
with some level of fame, even if it is something
he'll keep internally to feel better about himself. That he's
just like Christian vale in American Psycho. But he'll do
it better and not get caught. We know how that
worked out. These selfies are disturbing because we know that
(11:05):
they're not being sent to anyone. They would be disturbing
if they're being sent to someone, but.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
In this case, these are for him. And so it
suggested to me that he has.
Speaker 6 (11:14):
Some sort of internal dialogue going on where he's fascinated
with this idea of got.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
Got to Sherry, got to Sherry. Wait, wait, I want
you to look at the screen right now. Okay, Susan Hendricks,
I'm going to get Schwartz's analysis of this. But he
is saluting the camera. Now, is this particular shot this
was taken after the murders, correct Susan Hendricks.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
It absolutely was. And you see that on his knuckle
there the injury.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
You know, it's almost as if just Scott speaking of
the military, he's saying job complete done and saluting.
Speaker 4 (11:55):
Yeah. Yeah, he is offering up this half assed salute
that is doing. But what's more significant there is this
abraided area on his knuckle. Nancy, that's key. This thing
looks like it's in a state of resolve, but it's
still relatively fresh in this in this image, the edges
(12:15):
from my appearance, from my perspective right now is kind
of dried out. But yeah, how do you how do
you explain that? Look, we get things all the time
on our hands, people at work, you know, with their hands.
This guy's a PhD student, Nancy, and doing domainial labor,
all right, So we have to begin to think what
other kind of injuries did did he have that he
(12:36):
was presenting with? Did anybody else see anything else on
the surface of his skin? And you know, I begin
to think back, we've just discussed the brutality of this
multiple homicide, this butchery. He's got to have some injury somewhere.
There's something because you know, when you're using a knife
like this over and over again, you're also using I
(13:00):
think he used it as a bludgeon as well, where
he could flip it over and use the end of
the knife, and that's going to involve his fist. And
even if he's gloved, you're still going to get these
little injuries like that through the glove, even through a
latex glove, because there's an abraided area. There's a friction
that occurs when you strike something, and that would that would.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
Potentially let me throw this to Josh colesrude. Josh Colsrud's
joining us right now, Come on, defense attorney, former US
attorney founder Coulsrud Law Offices. What do you do when
you're a client after the murders and we know he
committed the murders because he's pled guilty, there's no doubt left,
(13:45):
and he has on a pair it looks like black
klingy tights pull down, I would say, almost to his
pubic hair. Dare I even think of that? Okay, yeah,
thank you? With a cut to his finger, and this
is what he's doing. You know those would come into evidence.
(14:08):
How disgusted do you believe that your rs would be
if they had seen that? This is just part of
the evidence the prosecution hid from the victims' families before
he entered that deal behind their backs. What about it
calls rude?
Speaker 7 (14:23):
Well, first off, I think we can all agree that mister.
Speaker 8 (14:26):
Coberger is a cold blooded killer.
Speaker 7 (14:30):
However, as a former prosecutor, looking at these selfies, you
know a selfie is not a smoking gun. In twenty
twenty five, everybody takes them. If a selfie equaled vanity,
then half of America.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Okay, wait a minute, but put him up? Put him up? Well,
where do you think you are? Do you think you're
in pre K right now? Are you a nursery school?
Look around. You can't just say something like that and
not expect to get caught on the carpet. Do you
take shirtless selfies? I'm just curious, Josh, do you stand
in front of the mirror with your pants pulled down
(15:06):
to your crotch and buff all up and take a
do you?
Speaker 7 (15:13):
I'd like to know if I was in college and
I had an iPhone, which I didn't when I was
in college, but if I did, I'm sure that I
would have, as would all of my friends and all
of my girlfriends.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
Then is that a no, you don't? As you doesn't.
I don't you take shirtless selfies where you're all like
clinched up?
Speaker 7 (15:36):
You know?
Speaker 8 (15:37):
I wouldn't say that. It would be unusual to do that.
Speaker 7 (15:41):
You know, sometimes when you do the track of how
you look when you're working out to be like, all right,
I want to take a picture of how I look
now and compare it to myself a couple of months
from now to see if I have the improvement.
Speaker 8 (15:55):
So I think that there are advantages to taking selfies.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Okay, you know, just cut the crap. Okay, you don't,
you don't McDonough help him. Chris McDonough joining me, Director
Cole Case Foundation, homicide detective who has scoured this crime scene.
He started the interview room on YouTube. Please. The point
is not a shirtless selfie. The point is he's doing
this right after the murders, right around the time of
(16:22):
the murders. That's where his head is. Those four students
lost their lives as part of his vanity project.
Speaker 9 (16:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 10 (16:30):
Absolutely, And you know, just look at the salute. The
salute is a cub scout salute. I mean he's got
two fingers put together with the injury on his hand,
and it just goes to show, you know, how empty
this guy is. There's nothing there. I mean, these pictures
look like they just came out on the movie Zoolander.
(16:50):
I mean, he has been projecting this persona for so
long and now the crime is finished, and now he's
trying to gain power as a result of look what
I have done. And these are disgusting, but it goes
in in concert with the type of personality he is.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
Colsrud I would like to hear, although you will neither
admit or deny your own shortless selfies. That said, how
would you get that suppressed? Because you do not want
the jury to say that.
Speaker 7 (17:27):
I would argue that it is unfairly prejudicial pursuant to
Rule four h three.
Speaker 8 (17:34):
Rules of Evidence.
Speaker 7 (17:36):
It doesn't show that he has motive, it doesn't show
that it's a confession. It's not even sent to any person.
It is solely for himself. It was found on his
phone subsequent to when after he was arrested. And if
I'm the prosecutor in the case, the only way that
I can think I could get this in would be
(17:59):
to show injury like you showed on his knuckles. But
the fact that he's shirtless or portrays Christian Bale and
American psycho. Unless there's some writings that he has where
he says I want to be like American psycho, and
then you can juxtapose that picture.
Speaker 8 (18:17):
Maybe, but it's going to.
Speaker 7 (18:19):
Be a tough sell to the judge, and I think
that would be precluded.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Hold on, Josh CALSRD, do you want a lot of cases,
But let me remind you that evs can come in
front of the jury to show motive, course of conduct,
frame of mind, intent, the mental state at the time
of the incident. These selfies will come in for that.
And as far as did he write about American Psycho,
(18:48):
he had a cash treasure trove of American Psycho videos
and photos, so he didn't have to write about it.
He was looking at him and doing the Lord only
what as he was looking at them. And also the
timing of these photos is very important, just before and
(19:08):
after the murders goes to whether the murders were sexually motivated.
We also know, don't we don't we Susan Hendrix that
found on his phone were many many searches of raping women,
having sex with women when they were comatos. That was
(19:30):
one of his sex fantasies. That's what he expected to
find the night he went into eleven twenty two, King wrote,
but that's not what he found and they all died.
So all of this fits together with a sex related motive,
doesn't it well?
Speaker 2 (19:48):
One hundred percent? Nancy. And as we were talking about
it twenty twenty two, think about that house on King wrote,
how much fun they had They posted on social media selfies.
I believe that Brian Koberger not only stopped the students
that he killed. I believe he was stalking others. And
I believe he stopped them online too, So now is
he mimicking them now I could take selfies. I believe
(20:09):
he was jealous of their friendships, and I believe that's
what he was doing there Washington State. Planning this murder on.
Speaker 11 (20:17):
A location of your emergency.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
I don't think he's happen in our hotel.
Speaker 11 (20:22):
You don't know what what is address of the emergency?
What is the rest of the address?
Speaker 1 (20:35):
Oh, King two Roads, Okay?
Speaker 11 (20:38):
And there's not a house for an apartment, it's a house.
Can you repeat theadress to make sure that I have
it right.
Speaker 8 (20:46):
I'll talk to you guys. We're we have a delight,
so we're next to them.
Speaker 11 (20:51):
I need someone to repeat the address for raification.
Speaker 10 (20:54):
The address one one to two Kings.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
Rugs Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 10 (21:09):
It's a social awkward us.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
He doesn't know how to relate to other people. He's
alienated himself.
Speaker 12 (21:16):
Nobody wants to be around the guy, let alone give
them their telephone number and address to be added as
a contact to his phone.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
Because I don't think he feels much at all. All
the bloody clothes, the bloody ever is all gone, and
there he is songs up. Guys, I did it.
Speaker 8 (21:35):
This is his dissertation.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
This is what he was.
Speaker 8 (21:38):
Preparing for the whole time.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
This is why he was able to pull it off.
This guy Kiberger left a trail a mile wide, and
the prosecution hid all of these facts from the victims'
families and the public and then took a deal informing
them about the play deal after it had already been accepted.
(22:01):
And isn't it true, Josh Colesry, veteran trial lawyer, that
once a plea dealers offered and accepted, there's no going back.
Speaker 7 (22:09):
Yes, once a please accepted, it is ironclad, almost no
appealable rights, except for under three circumstances. A in effective
assist as a council is one, A number two prospratorial
and misconduct, or number three a manifest injustice.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
Now what we are learning is Susan Hendricks joining US
investigative journalist who has been there on the scene from
the get go. He is writing and writing and writing it.
I'm going to quote some of his writings that we've
uncovered in thousands of pages that were taken from his
Washington State apartment. The confessed killer writes at length about
(22:48):
how procedural injustice in the American system has produced many
false confessions quote false guilty please manifest due to a
lack of judicial oversight, blaming the judge and plea deals
that seemed to compel the defendant to enter them force
the defendant to plead guilty under oath. If defendants failed
(23:11):
to accept a plea bargain, he writes, prosecutors will seek
this trick discharges. Some people plead guilty to crimes they
didn't commit, as to choose the lesser of two evils.
So we've got him blaming the judge the system. Now,
he says, quote eyewitness misidentification is an issue and therefore
(23:38):
we need increasing video surveillance, which is interesting since he
picked a home that had no surveillance cameras. He goes
on Susan Hendrix to blame prosecutorial misconduct. He describes unethical
(24:01):
behavior where people played guilty when they shouldn't. Have Another
seven page single space paper we discovered refers to a
gruesome stabbing murder case. His words, not mine. Blood pulled
around the victim and was spattered on the walls and
(24:22):
television near the victim's body. He describes how the victim
was found, the grizzly details. He goes on and on
and on. Okay, explain to me, Susan Hendrix, this plot
revealing Coburger's alleged plans to walk free to get out
(24:48):
of the plea deal.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Absolutely, and I believe after reading that that he had
planned this every single day, even the plea he planned.
I believe this was all that he thought about, all
that he did. And Nancy, I listened to your heartfelt
conversation with Kelly's parents. The laughable part here is they
might have a case against the prosecutor, not Brian Coober Cober.
(25:11):
It's not going to work here that they were if
anything nice to him. I remember hearing the judge say, oh,
you don't have to stand up. This was during the
plead deal and it infuriated Steve Gonzalveez. So here he
doesn't have a case, but I think he was ready
for it. He was using his students to get in
their minds and think of covering everything. But they did
know what color car he was driving, and he did
(25:32):
leave DNA there, so it didn't work out in his favor,
but the prosecution a case against them not going to
work here.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
You know, writing about procedural injustice, and this has been
uncovered now. In fact, out of thousands of pages of
documents that he kept meticulously, he is essentially hatching a
plot to get his plea is guilty pleate reversed. He
(25:59):
refers to to lack of judicial oversight, blaming a judge
for taking a plea that was a misguided plea. This
is a real dig to Dave Mack joining US Crime
Stories investigative reporter, a real dig at the judge claiming
(26:19):
prosecutorial misconduct would be overlooked by the judge. And what
about Dave matt claiming false guilty? Please, where people are
between a rock and a hard spot. If they don't
plead guilty in his case to life, then they'll get
the death penalty. So therefore, what he pled to something
he didn't do. That's what he's saying.
Speaker 13 (26:40):
That's exactly what he's saying. He's laying this out there
ahead of time as to why he would plead guilty.
Eye didn't have a choice. I had to because they
told me if I didn't do this this was going
to happen. But Nancy, you pointed out something during the
hearing where the judge was actually asking very p civic questions,
(27:01):
and for.
Speaker 4 (27:01):
Those of us who are not attorneys, we didn't.
Speaker 13 (27:03):
Quite understand why the judge was going so far with
his Q and A here, And the whole point was
the judge was making sure everything that Coburger was claiming
would stick up so he couldn't come back later and
try to pull this. It was a magnificent job by
the judge in that moment, but he was obviously planning.
(27:25):
He was going the long game here, Nancy, from the
very beginning.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
You know another thing, Guys, you were seeing the victims
that lost their lives that early early morning, in the
wee hours of the morning, when Coburger entered their home
stealthily expecting to find women asleep. We believed that he
could rape, and instead he found them up in a
live ordering door dash eating, texting, and it was literally
(27:50):
a bloodbath. Chris mcduonn ad joining US veteran homicide detective
and star of the Interview Room. Chris, this is what
I would always do, and I mean for every single
guilty plea I ever took. I'd swear the defendant end
under oath on the Bible and make them state. I
(28:14):
would ask questions to which they would respond, And one
of them, after I swore them in, was are you
entering a guilty plea today too, let's just pretend murder. Yes,
And have you been promised anything or threatened with anything
in order for you to plead guilty today? And they
(28:35):
would go no. And then I would say, are you
pleading guilty of your own free will without any hope
of gain? Has anybody threatened you coerced you to plead
guilty today? And then they would answer no, So then
they're under oath. I did not hear that happen during
(28:59):
this guilty plea? Is I mean this? If this didn't happen,
I mean everybody in the county jail would walk free
because they would say, oh, I was afraid I would
get a worse sentence if I went to trial. I
really didn't do it.
Speaker 14 (29:12):
Totals yeah, absolutely, Nancy, And I recall you, you know,
saying exactly that when he didn't tell the story and
the court let him, you know, just basically, you know,
go to jail, go to prison.
Speaker 10 (29:26):
But here here's a really other interesting thought to dovetail
in to what you're saying here. If we go back
to those pictures just for a minute, just to think
about the duality of this guy's personality.
Speaker 8 (29:37):
And look at the.
Speaker 10 (29:38):
One where he's at the lake where he's in the shirt,
and you look at the mountain range behind him.
Speaker 1 (29:44):
You know, you know what that mountain range is.
Speaker 10 (29:46):
That's Mount Ravery Neerk And he who's famous that one
right there, who's famous for that area, Ted Bundy. And
if we take a look at his phone and the
obsession that he had with serial killing. And there's another
one here where there's a rock behind him in one
side he's studying right there that one. Look at the
(30:08):
right rock. It says slus. This guy hates women. So
in one part of his personality he's projecting in his
public persona, Hey, I'm going to try to get out
of this. And the second real part in his hidden
personality is I'm going to kill women.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
You know what, Chris mcdonoy, You just put chills down
my spine to think this guy walking around amongst all
those beautiful young co eds. I mean, it was just hunting.
They were his prey and now, these writings found in
one of his essays show he knows how to go
(30:49):
about getting a guilty plea overturned. He does, He's researched it,
he's written about it. And believe you me, Josh Colesrude,
former assistant US attorney now criminal defense attorney. Josh. You
can blood, sweat and tears, you can give it all
(31:12):
to your client. But then when they're behind bars, you
go on about your life. You go to your next client,
and they're sitting there, gnashing their teeth and twisting their tail.
All they have to think about behind bars is how
am I going to get out of here? How am
I going to get that plea reversed? That is what
he is doing right now. And it doesn't matter how
(31:36):
hard you worked or what a great job you did,
you will go right down the crapper. You will. The
attorney will be sacrificed with an ineffective assistance of counsel.
And I heard Chris mcdonna state the judge let this
plea happen. Well, yes he did, but you know you
can't really stop a blind plea. But it was the
prosecutor's duty to ask those questions, make sure they were
(32:00):
asked put the defense under oath and make sure he
was pleading by his own volition, not out of fear,
threat or coercion. But isn't it true clients, no matter
what you do for them, they will claim ineffective assistance
of counsel to get out of jail. That's all he's
thinking about right now. Cole's rude.
Speaker 8 (32:20):
That's absolutely correct.
Speaker 7 (32:21):
The most common appeal from a plea agreement is the IAC,
the ineffective assistance of counsel claim.
Speaker 8 (32:29):
And what he has to.
Speaker 7 (32:31):
Show is that his lawyer missed something that was very obvious.
It was a standard deviation from what was expected. And
here I think he's going to have some difficulty because
his attorney did a great job of getting him out
of the death penalty. You know, that was the attorney's
(32:52):
main motivation at the time. Also, mister Coberger under oath
admitted to these So I think that his angle right
here is going to be prosecutorial misconduct. He's going to
say that the prosecutor hid evidence, that the prosecutor used
controversial DNA technology IgG technology that was illegal, and I
(33:19):
think that's.
Speaker 8 (33:19):
Going to be where his angle is going to be
in this case.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
The plea deal, the infamous plea deal taken by the
prosecutor after so much evidence, so many facts were hidden
from the families. Coburger as we go to air tonight, plotting, scheming, planning,
a way to get that plea reversed. What were they hiding.
Speaker 9 (33:43):
Just telling us our child was stabbed brutally?
Speaker 10 (33:47):
You know how many times?
Speaker 5 (33:48):
How many times? We just learned the day of or
the day before the sentencing, how many times Kailee had
been stabbed.
Speaker 1 (33:56):
Wait a minute, I am stunned because she was stabbed
so many times they could not identify her, and you
just learned about that when the plea was set to
go down.
Speaker 5 (34:12):
We learned about it after the plea the day before
the sentence seing guys should.
Speaker 9 (34:16):
Have been touched in the face. He was a creep
and he's a disgusting creeple he is a creep.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
State away from him, anti woman, misogynist, stalking behavior thirteen
and flanks where he would intimidate for stalk female students,
and so much more. Tonight, are their more victims emerging?
If we're hearing about these victims, how many other victims
(34:43):
are out there? And what is the severity of what
happened to them? Joining me in allstar peal makes sense
of what we are learning to. Women tell police they
suspect Coburger was stalking them while he was at Washington
State University. Straight out to Susan Hendrix, these women state
(35:03):
that they spotted Coburger at their employment over and over
and over, to the point other coworkers would warn them,
he's here, he's here. Then one of them goes home.
She is semi nude changing clothes, and someone comes to
her window and either taps on the window or hits
(35:25):
the window, and she realizes someone's watching her. And I'm
going to go to you in just a second, Chris McDonough,
that's Chris mcdonna. I have and I have looked at
the scene over and over, and that's exactly what Coburger
was doing here, and he had a great vantage point
to stare into the girl's bedroom windows. But not only that.
One of them has a husband, and during one of
these stalking episodes, the husband comes home and sees a
(35:48):
white car speeding away similar to Brian Coburger's. So we
know there are other victims. Tell me about these two.
Speaker 2 (35:57):
Yeah, there is a clear pattern here. One of the
students worked at the university bookstore. He went in. She
never gave him her name, and he called her by name.
He was obviously looking into who she was and would
just stare at her. Another one worked in the criminology department,
and she said she caught eye contact with him out
of her window, which means he was staring directly in.
(36:19):
She ran and hid in the bathroom. She even went
to Brian Coberger and said, I'm Leslian, there's nothing that's
going to happen here. Didn't deter him. This was happening
over and over again, and I believe he was looking
for someone to murder and he found that sadly on
King Road. But I remember Steve Gonzalez telling you, Nancy,
that there were red flags everywhere with this guy, thirteen
(36:40):
incidents that they knew.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
Of, and the school, Washington State did nothing. Could you retail.
Very slowly they encounter where the woman, the victim, saw
him looking at her through the window and she ran
and hid in the bathroom.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
Yeah, she was in the classroom and she could feel,
you know when you feel someone kind of staring at you,
and looked at him, made eye contact looking out the window.
And she said the only way that that would occur
is if he was looking directly where she was. I
believe she was the target here. Then she sees him
come in the building and she runs and hides in
(37:16):
the bathroom. That's how threatening she thought he was, that
she had to hide. There are people, Maybe you don't
want to see it work. And he said, oh, you
don't run and hide in the bathroom. And you mentioned
the husband. There were footprints up to that window, and
she said it was clear, or her husband said it
was clear. That he kind of backed away because there
was only one set of footprints. And one of the
(37:39):
women said this, Nancy, it's so pressing that nothing seemed
to deter him. He wasn't bothered by.
Speaker 1 (37:44):
Rejection crime stories with Nancy Gray Dotter Sherry Schwartz joining
US forensic psychologist author Offware, a law and psychology intersect,
Doctor Sherry, I've had so many cases. This is anik Jodel.
(38:08):
I don't have a statistic where it would be. I'd
be prosecuting a rape or a murder, maybe a serial rape,
and I would look back in the suspect's history, way
back way back. I would find peeping tom and it
happens so often that I started talking to people in
the office, you know, the few people that I confided
(38:30):
in there. Have you noticed that so many of these
murder perps and or rape perpse have been peeping Tom's
It's just the beginning. That's one thing I want to
throw at you, But first I want to explore what
Susan Hendricks just said. Gosh, this is reminding me so
much a trying cases, because before I would put say
(38:51):
you on the stand, I would meet with you ad
nauseum to figure out what it all meant. When someone
a grown lady young in her twenties, but still a
grown lady runs and hides. This woman is not fanciful.
(39:11):
She's got a job, she's going to school, she's running household.
She ran and hid from Coburger. She ran in the bathroom,
shut the door and locked it. That's an instinct. That's
why we are alive today, because we have instincts and
we act on them. Why did this young lady see
(39:34):
Coburger and run and hide in the bathroom.
Speaker 6 (39:37):
Well, she either had prior interactions with him, or saw
him around, or something about that particular interaction, which is
completely nonverbal. Something told her her instinct, her fight or
flight response said flee, get out, go hide. This is
somebody who has the potential to cause you danger and
(39:59):
these are things that she and be underestimated when people
have reactions like that.
Speaker 1 (40:02):
And of course, just Cole's rude, your veteran trial lawyer,
this incident may or may not have come into trial
as a similar transaction, but it speaks to me. It
means something to me that this woman, other women were
so instinctively afraid of coburger they would hide. Just wait
(40:27):
till I tell you about what a mother hen did
in the criminal procedure department at WSU. Just wait, you're
gonna freak. But that means something. But it would never
have come into evidence, would it? In a nutshell calls rude?
Speaker 8 (40:42):
Well, and you're absolutely right, Nancy.
Speaker 7 (40:45):
In violent cases, judges do allow sometimes some type of
character evidence. And what this could show is a pattern
or a pattern evidence that could go towards motive later on,
that this defendant was learning how to be a predator.
(41:07):
He was learning how to case female victims, how to
hide his tracks, how to target certain female victims. However,
the evidence has cannot be unserved for judicial which is
what the argument would be in this case.
Speaker 12 (41:28):
A Washington State University faculty member says her maternal instinct
took over when she wouldn't allow a female student to
be left alone in an office on campus with Coburger.
She keeps herself busy until he left, and says it
wasn't anything specific about his behavior that prompted a response,
it was just a feeling she had at the time.
After Coberger left, she told the student to email her
(41:50):
with the subject line nine to one one if she
ever needed help.
Speaker 1 (41:54):
J Scott Morgan joining US Professor Forensics, Chanital State University.
A faculty was so concerned about Coburger stalking this particular
and I've got look at this. All of these are
other instances of him scaring women, but this one. A
faculty member was so concerned that she told the girl
(42:16):
just text me nine on one if he comes back.
Look that is grounded in something. All of these women
are not hysterical. And you remember that other home invasion
they have not yet attributed to Coburger, which leads me too,
this is not a quantum leap of faith. What else
is out there? What else is out there?
Speaker 4 (42:38):
Nancy? I'm in my twenty first year of academia this year.
And let me tell you something. When you're in an environment,
in an academic environment, and you have freshmen that are
coming in, returning sophomores, juniors, and certainly those that are
about to graduate, they are the most vulnerable when it
comes to a faculty member. And look, I know he
was a TA, but he's been given charge over these individuals,
(43:02):
over these students, to instruct them. Nancy, I submit to
you that this whole game about the PhD thing, this
is a means to an end. He saw this as
shooting fish in a barrel because he knew that he
would have instantaneous access to some of the most vulnerable people,
those that want a degree, those that want to be
(43:23):
successful in the university. He could do and say anything
to them because he perceived himself as having power. And
it's a terrible situation to send your kids to the
university and have a monster like this in this environment.
And let me tell you one more thing if you
like that one. I think that WSU got hoodwinked into
(43:46):
hiring this guy. That's what I really think. I don't
think they did a deep dive on his background at all.
And you know, you think about the position that this
university put these kids in because they gave him charge
over these kids. Hadn't it Hadn't it ever struck you
as odd that he didn't get along with his supervisors.
(44:08):
You know why, because his purpose was not to be
there as an academic. His purpose was to be there
as a predator, Nancy, you know.
Speaker 1 (44:16):
Following up on that, Chris McDonough joining me, former homicide detective.
I don't know if you or if anybody on the
panel ever had this experience, but over and over and
over and over, I would see cases that had morphed,
had graduated into rape, serial rate and or murder where
it all started with a freak peeping Tom. He would
(44:36):
be a Peeping Tom and it would be dismissed. Peeping
Tom paid twenty five dollars Peeping Tom order violation, citation,
and it would go suddenly. It would be more and
more serious until it culminated and landed as an indictment
on my desk to prosecute. Have you ever noticed that
starting with Peeping Tom?
Speaker 10 (44:53):
Yeah, absolutely, that voyeurism in of itself is the fuel
that helped fan the fantasy. And remember Nancy when we
were there. And if you look at this, I mean,
this picture right here tells us everything we need to know.
The intensity of this particular picture. This is the intensity
(45:15):
that he is operating with while voyeurism. And if we
think about the fuel that he is now operating on,
it's all of that intense non consensual pornography. And think
about that him sitting in the backyard of those four kids'
house and has a fish bowl type of view. And
(45:39):
that's why I have always been fascinated by that one
cylinder block underneath the window of the back bedroom at
that house. I saw him in my mind through my experience,
just sitting there and just waiting for those kids to
fall asleep and then his fantasy starts to play out,
(46:00):
because that's what was driving him.
Speaker 1 (46:01):
And you're right, Chris mcdonah, he wanted sleeping slash comatose
women to rate based on his own computer searches. All
of this kept away from the victim's family. This and
more tonight Coburger behind bars plotting his jailhouse exit. Legally,
(46:26):
listen to what Steve and Christy gounsolve Is say about
this plea deal.
Speaker 9 (46:31):
For me, it was outrage because my daughter was fighting
up to her very last breath.
Speaker 1 (46:35):
Over and over.
Speaker 9 (46:35):
She kept trying to get out of that bed and
he was just drilling her. And she's fighting for her
last breath. And I got this old Santa Claus who's
just thrown out of White Towl, just saying, oh, let's
just make it all go away.
Speaker 1 (46:48):
Nancy Gray signing off, goodbye friend,
Host
Nancy Grace
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