The man who killed 13-year-old Abby Williams and 14-year-old Libby German on a hiking trail in Delphi, Indiana, in February 2017 is still unknown and free despite a grainy photo of him. Nancy Grace talked to Libby’s grandparents, Mike and Becky Patty, and Abby’s mother Anna Williams in this episode recorded live at CrimeCon. They are joined by forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan, Private Investigator Vincent Hill, Juvenile Judge & Lawyer Ashley Willcott, and lawyer Renee Rockwell.
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Get started Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on sirius x
M Triumph Channel one thirty two. Hello everybody, we are
(01:05):
live here at Crime con in Nashville, Tennessee, where we
are all assembled three thousands strong in our pursuit to
stop crime. Right now, we go to Delphi, Delphi now
known because of the deaths of two little girls, a
(01:25):
tiny town and know more than three thousand people still
in shock after Liberty and Abigail are found dead. It's
been well over a year and still even though the
little girl's killer is caught on camera when the girls
(01:45):
snapped his picture on that trestle bridge, we have his voice,
we possibly have his DNA, but still no arrest. Why
struggling to understand, struggling to make sense of it all
Our Liberty and Abby's families who are with us now
(02:07):
here at Crime con answering your questions and listening to
your tips, clues and interpretation of the facts. This is
crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. I want
to go straight to our guests with me, our Liberty's grandparents,
Mike and Becky Patty, and Abby's mother, Anna Williams. Anna,
(02:29):
So did she go? Did you take her to the
park to meet up? Yeah? I picked limb up and
we'd taken it. What time of the day was it
the day before? Oh? It was. It was kind of
like the weather out here. It was not the nicest day.
It was kind of wendy and overcast. It was probably
about one thirty or two o'closs, still daylight. Then what happened? Um? So,
I we'd gone to the house and gathered up her
(02:51):
things and I dropped them off um, and she spent
the night and Um, I worked two japs at that time.
So I was finishing up my shift at the some
home and she had texts me and said, is it
okay if I stay for dinner? And this is like
at twelve thirty, and I said, let's was at your house?
She was at their house and I said, well that's fine,
but I have to be at my other job at four.
(03:11):
So if you can't stay until eight and somebody can't,
you know, it's gonna be one of those deals. Either
you stay until I can get off of work, or
if you know, Kelsey's come back to town or they're
you know, want to get rid of you, they'll have
to drop you off of the house because I can't
get you. And she said it's fine. So I said, okay,
I will see you after. Oh I know that when
the parent can't come and go, oh, I'll take I'll
(03:32):
trap a mom. I'm happy to okay, I'll take a phone. So,
so you're at work. Did you go pick him up? No? Okay,
they were, she was still at the house. I was.
I was at my uh bart stop. So now I've
got them at your place, right, Okay, we're both of
(03:52):
you there, guys, I'm now speaking. That was Abby's mom
and and now I'm speaking to Matt, Mike and Becky.
What happened? Tell me that day from the time they
got there for dinner. Oll, they went upstairs. Of course,
Abbey come bringing in a big old tote of paint. Paint. Yeah,
(04:14):
they were gonna paint. Ah. Of course, the Libby's room
when nearly as organized as Abbey's her stuffs there everywhere
still is. Um he walked through and you find some
paint here, and you find some paint there, and all
of our other stuff. But uh, so they went upstairs
and they've of course, you know how kids do, they
(04:36):
take lots of selfies and videos, and so we know
what they were doing that night because Libby did some
videos and of Abbey there painting, and and we there
is there is a canvas there of where they started
a new painting, said chocolate. Imagine that I was right.
I can't remember. There was something wrong with one of
(04:58):
the letters that was. So they you, um, they were
up in the room doing their their thing, and they
of course they're up half the night girls stuff, girls
talking and whatever, and um, they slept and they and
then the next morning was Monday, and we had a
snow makeup day where the weather was so good that okay,
(05:19):
I see that means something to me, that a snow
makeup day. So okay, what was there? What did they do?
The next morning? They slept in, They slept in and
they got up, but I don't know its ten o'clock
and uh, they have pancakes for breakfast brunch and uh.
And they came out and said, we want something to do. Well,
(05:42):
my my office is at home. And I said, dreaded words,
what can we do? And that was Libby all time.
If she if she had to set still for five minutes,
it's we're gonna do something this weekend? Are we gonna?
You know what we're doing? What's plans? So we were
quite busy with her. Um, and I said, you know what,
I got files that need to be filed. You want
to make some money? Bet they were. They were out
(06:05):
there working away, and especially if he said, I'll take
your shop, and you know you do this for me,
I'll take your shopping. So they were out there and um,
they and Kelsey, Libby's sister, come out and said, hey,
I'm gonna stop by a friend's house for a little
bit and then I have to be at work for Libby.
That's all it took. She jumped up and said, hey,
(06:28):
because it was a beautiful day, it was action drop
us off. Hey we she and I said, well, what
about this filing. We'll do it later. I promise we'll
do it later. And uh so, I said, well that's fine.
You um she said, can Kelsey drop us off with
the trails? And I said, well, okay, but I'm busy.
You're gonna have to get a ride home. No, what
(06:49):
are the trails we have around our town. We have
a trail. It's a it's a community trail system that
there's what eight or nine miles worth of trails that
just goes clear around our town, all the way around.
And they had just opened up this section of the
trails not too long a couple of years because they
put a new road in and they put a historic bridge.
(07:11):
Had no reason to think, oh, there were there was
people out there that morning and that day like jogging
and all that. There's there's some that jog, but there
was a lot of kids out. That's the trails is
what our kids do. There's not a lot to do
in Delphi. So you know, you go walk and bike
the trails and and out there that bridge. What people
don't realize, so many families have had their pictures taken
(07:32):
out there. You know, it looks like a place you
could see, uh, like a wedding photo done on the bridge,
you know how you do those scenic photos. It's not
just in the church anymore. And it's very pritty, and
it looks out over a river. It's a creek. But so, um,
(07:52):
my son was out running some errands and so she
Livy's dad and she called him and said, hey, if
Kelsey takes us to the trails, will you pick us up.
He says, well, I'll be another hour, so I'll pick
you up on my way back through. So so one hour.
So it was it wasn't gonna be that long. We
knew it wasn't gonna be that long. And it was nice.
(08:14):
It was nice and right, they're going to be well,
not for sure, he said, about an hour or so.
You know, I'm not so Kelsey took them and dropped
them off, just getting me so upset because um and
I've even done it. Okay, okay, they'll be okay for
thirty minutes. It's just thirty minutes. I'll run to Kroeber
(08:36):
and I'll come back thirty minutes and then I'm not
up the whole time. So an hour and a half
that was it. So they go, we dropped. It's your
last memory of her? She was standing at the door
of the office with this smile that she has, and
(08:58):
I said, it could be a little chilly out there.
You get a jacket. She sitting grandma. I said, I
told you, get a jacket. She just looked at me
and smiled and said, I'll be okay. It's okay, granmall
and she turned and walked out. My last memories of
her standing at my office door telling me it's okay.
I'm not gonna get a gold. So that's that's my
(09:20):
last memory. What is your last memory? Dropping her off
at their house with her with their paints. And it
wasn't until later on when we when we got to
the Sheriff's department and actually, um, I saw the snapchat picture.
But that's the last picture I have. That is the
last visual I have with my little girl. It's on
(09:41):
that bridge, you know. I think about that so often.
I think about Abby and Liberty when I dropped the
children at school, and I watched him walk in. Because
of Karen Horman, a little boy in the Pacific Northwest,
this step mother dropped him off. I'll watch him walk
in almost to the door, and I remember, think about
it every morning. And you know, Renee Rockwell, defense lawyer,
(10:04):
You've told me a hundred times about the last time.
Remember you saw your ex and he had put the
laundry in and it all turned pink? Remember, and he
do you remember that? Yes? I still have the pink towels.
And so when people are confused about the last time
they see someone or the last thing, that I know
(10:26):
right then, because I remember the last time I saw
my fiancee. He come to Macon. He was living in Athens, Georgia,
and spent the weekend with me and my family. And
we got like five o'clock that morning and he left
to get to work, and he drove off in a
white Lamons and he to the horn and held his
hand up and I watched him go out of sight.
(10:47):
And that's the last time I ever saw him. And
I have thought about it and dreamed about it so
many times. When was the next time, What was the
next thing you hurt. Tell me from your point of view, Well, um, again,
these times are going to be close because we've been
(11:08):
we've been scrutinized on many times. I mean, it's all approximations.
Again that they were probably dropped off around one thirty
time frame. Derek called him about a quarter after three
that Derek is the dad who's going to pick him up.
So about a quarter after three he calls him no
answer to tell him, Hey, I'm I'm just about there.
Come pick me up, you know, or come to the car,
(11:30):
and continues to call actually he's there. He gets, yeah, yes,
pulling up. But this is what we call trailhead, you know,
a little little area to part um. So he said
he got out and was walking, you know, trying to
text him. In about three thirty or so, like called
Becky and said, hey, I can't get ahold of Libal
should not answer and give her a call, and so
(11:51):
she tried calling, and then the our our daughter Tara
tried calling. So everybody's texting and calling and she's not
returning and that's way out of character. I mean, you know,
kids have their phone and that is there. That's it.
And uh so Becky called me probably about a quarter
till four. So I wasn't at working off yet and said, hey,
(12:15):
Libby's not answering something wrong. We're heading out there. It's
just not doesn't seem right. I said, okay, said I'll
head that way, just thinking, okay, where the you know,
first thing goes. They hooked up with some boys. They're
out doing they they're not answering their phone because I
don't want to get caught. And then so by four
o'clock most of the family is there. We're trying to
(12:35):
I've been trying to get ahold of her. She's at work.
I show up there probably about four thirty. Time I
get out of work. The trail had the trail head,
and of course I jump out and I'm starting to look.
She leaves at that time to go find Anna. I'm like, hey,
we need you know everybody. Let me ask you all
a question. How many times have you been looking at
a store or you're somewhere and you try you don't
(12:56):
see your child? Happened me once and I'll never forget it,
And it was you've heard me tell the stories that
the baby's or us and some mother had guilted me
out because she made her own organic sunscreen. I'm like, okay,
So I'm there trying to find organic sunscreen because I
was visualizing like a witch over apop me trying to
cook some up. And uh so I bent down and
(13:19):
they had the like it lows or something. They have
the shelves all the way up. So I'm down on
the floor looking at the bottom trying to find organic sunscreen.
And I stand up and they're only renee what were
they like three? And they were wearing those little crops
which are silent. And I turned around. There's Lucy and
no John David and I had practiced all kind of
(13:40):
emergency procedures. I grabbed Lucy like a football and started screaming,
screaming lot the doors and this that moment you turn
around and they're not there. I'm getting chills. They're remembering it.
When did it hit you? Something is wrong? I think
(14:04):
we all realized once you wouldn't answer her phone after
the third or fourth call from everybody in the text.
When I got there at again after four, UM like, okay,
maybe they've dropped their phone, you know what I mean?
Because there's water, they're a creek, and um, did they
(14:24):
both have a phone no, Aby did not. Abby did
not have mine don't have a phone yet either, So
Liberty had the phone. And you see, that's what people do,
That's what I do. I think of every possible thing
that could happen. Maybe they dropped it in the water. Okay,
all right, so we fig're okay, they're that or they're lost,
you know what I mean. They just wandered off the
trail system. Cell phone service is not great out through there,
(14:46):
I mean patchy at best. You get certain marryas and
all that. And if they were wandered around off the trail,
so you're all three there at this point, I did
not know I actually met them. They She finally got
ahold of me. We missed each other's phone call, isn't
it because I didn't even have her that name in
this new phone that I had. And I was like, finally,
I'm like, you know what's up? She said, we're headed
the Sheriff's apartment. The girls want to walk this and
(15:07):
I was like, all right, all right, let me when
we close out a couple of things, I'll be there
just a few minutes, and hollered one of the girls
in the back that time. Did you really think anything
was wrong. No, because unfortunately they those girls had had
been in the school pool watching Kelsey practice and they
didn't have cell phone service, and it was I'm gonna
stay with Liberty until the game, and then she was
(15:28):
supposed to meet me for some Abby was supposed to
meet me for some money, and she hadn't And um,
I mean, so it happened before that you couldn't reach well,
not so much, they were right there at the school,
they just didn't have service. But I mean I thought, okay,
plans of change. And then I'd gotten a message from
Liberally saying Dabby is with me, and I was like,
this is probably another one of those things. Yes, it's
been a few hours, but I'm sure there's a say.
(15:50):
I'm just the exact opposite thirty minutes, smilies, I'm calling
nine one one because until they were thirteen and four exactly.
Mine is still just ten. So they haven't they don't
know what all they can get away with yet. When
did you realize something was not right at all? Well,
our whole family was out there looking. We all left Tara,
(16:12):
my daughter went straight over there. Derek was there. Um,
my son come pulling in from my other son, come
pulling in as I was leaving, and he said, what
are you doing. I said, We're gonna go look for
the girls. So he jumped in the car with me.
We drove if if they would have decided to walk home,
we drove both directions that they would have gone both routes.
(16:34):
We got there. We had six cars there. We were
taking over everything. Um. We we split up. We walked
all the trails. Um. Cody and Kelsey went across the bridge.
They went. They went across and and up to the
road and up to the houses up there were the
sheriffs there yet not yet by this time it was
a little after five. Was it getting dark? Not yet?
(16:54):
It wasn't, but I knew it was going And I
was on the phone most of the time with a
T and T trying to get them to ping her phone.
And they won't, they won't do it. I was just
gonna ask, will they do that, Vincent. I don't think
they'll just do it when you ask. No. Not right
off of that, No, I was arguing. I kept telling
that she's lost her and I know, well we can't.
Well they said, well you can get this one app great, Well,
(17:17):
well paying your phone, Well, you gotta put it on
her phone. I don't have her phone, So you know,
it was and that funny with the things that stick
in your mind about what was happening at that time.
So you're there, you think at this point everything is
probably just confusion. You guys are there trying to on foot,
trying to find them. When did you calling the cops?
(17:39):
It was about it. It was about twenty after five.
He come walking up on the trails and I said,
I'm not getting anywhere here. It's gonna get dark. It's
gonna get dark here pretty about my six or so.
I said, we've got to call the police. We've got
to get them looking for them before dark. We did, well,
you know, Vincent, at that point, what should police do first? Well, Nancy,
they probably should have come out with an amber alert
(18:00):
at that point. I mean, it had been several hours.
Don't you have to have a car tag to do
an amber alert? Yeah you do, But there's that's really
helping me. But are you in a perfect world for
several hours right by this point? They really I mean
they called again a quarter after three is when we
(18:21):
were going to pick them up. And at five twenty
I made the call the police. It wasn't several hours.
It was a couple of hours. The police immediately came
out there and dispatched, and we're on the scene, you know,
we're on the in the area walking. I guess the
only thing they could have done was bring dogs at
that time, because they didn't have a car to do
an amber alert in most places don't have like a
missing kittler. I don't think in the problem with the
dogs at that point, did they really have a missing
(18:44):
person When police first show up, they don't consider that
a missing person without the investigation first, you know, And
I get it. I am part of the justice system,
but I have a problem with that when time is critical.
So let me ask you this. Y'all stay out there
to what time that trying to find him? Oh? It was.
It was really a very hectic night. Obviously after calling
(19:06):
the police, then we rallied back at the police at
at the county police station. Oh man, how bad did
you hate to leave that part? Oh? I was there
several times throughout the night back and we were running
around town, driving around the town. Um, you know that
the police were trying to you know, look at they
were trying to paining her phone, and I think they
did end up getting some pain. I really saidn't know that. Yeah, yeah,
(19:28):
I don't know how accurate it was. It was earlier
during the day, like Anna said, we have some sketchy
phone service. You know, you can drive a half a
mile in from another tower and then if the falls off.
But no, we we spent There was a coordinated search
that started. I mean people started coming out and grows.
It was like volunteers all over the town. It was.
(19:51):
It was crazy that the our local fire department, they
were coordinating things, putting search parties together. People were you
could drive. We were driving everywhere. I'm checking every place
you think, okay, any of the parks that are there,
you know, up at the school, driving back out there
to that area. Uh, yelling, hollering you drive through town.
Later started getting dark, of course, and flashlights, so is
(20:14):
the light is a dark start of setting in? What
went through your mind? If anything, it's late and it's cold.
I mean you even maybe not so much here, but
in Indiana it'll go from an eighty degree day down
to thirty five degrees at night. And only one of
the girls and a sweatshirt on. I don't know why
(20:34):
Abby put one on as opposed to living there was
she listened to you, which you said, y'all need a jacket.
That was the whole thing is they're not wearing clothes.
If if they're outside, its hypothermia serious issue. Not yet
unless they've been in the water. Did you know about
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When did they call you? And what? You know? How
did you find out that they had found the girls?
(22:22):
You were out searching. They had put they had gritted
out a lot of the areas that that night. No,
it was the next day. It was the next day. Um,
the police called off the search about midnight. You had
well that yeah, like she said that, the police, uh,
just for safety, said, I mean, we were searching all
(22:43):
over the whole area, literally probably hundreds of people at
this time, we're out searching. I went back to, of
course we've been out searching. We all were. And I
went back to the fire station with with the volunteers
that were there, and uh, it was probably around at
eleven o'clock, twelve o'clock, and they kind of called off
(23:04):
the fresh one. I don't know exactly what times, so
don't hold me to that, but they called off the
officials search and let let's resume in the morning. But
the volunteers said, no, and and and and they all
rally and said, all right, let's go back out there.
We're gonna light up these creek banks. We're gonna walk
this creek. And I mean, but was there enough water
for them to have drowned in it? There's spots and
(23:27):
deer creek. I mean, it's not a real Dame Creek.
I used to fish it when I was a kid.
But um, so you guys were still out there through
the night. When did they tell you they had found
the girls? Well, that wasn't until the next day. So
I'm just want people realized there was people searching all
night long. I don't think I went home until three
or four o'clock in the morning. But there's people said, Mike,
we're gonna stay out here all night. We'll see you
(23:48):
in the morning. But for a validation point. One of
the reasons why they said, as we are bringing in
dogs for Kentucky. So the fewer people that we have
out on that specific area. So the next day there
was a restricted to the last path. Because of that.
We had been both sent to our homes to get
clothes at the girls had warned the biggest thing was,
let's not confuse these animals anymore by all of these
(24:12):
people criss crossing. It's just the thing. So there was
some reasoning that was good for the fact that the
dogs were coming in and the and that is a protocol.
So what time did they let you know the next
day they had found the girls? I think we we
were where we all were at various points. I had
(24:34):
actually gotten in a canoe and floated down the creek
for probably half a mile. I'd just gotten out gotten
back to the fire station, um Becky was. They were
doing a very coordinated search, and that's how they worked
at the starting the next morning where hundreds and hundreds
of people were showing up, and they would send out
groups with some sort of lawfish or whether it was
(24:54):
you know, somebody from the fire station, because you're you
can't dis trespass on people's property, you know, if you
do it a it correct. Yeah, I remember that there
was a search. Weren't executed on the person's home and
property right now or where the girls were found. Everybody
immediately thought, wow, that must be the person of the purp,
but not necessarily that's just where where were you when
(25:16):
you learned that I was searching? They? We were all indifferent.
We were all split up because all he was in
a canoe, I was I was in a group. I
was in a group that wasn't even close at the time.
But a friend of ours was with one of the
groups that found them, and he and his wife was
(25:37):
with us, and he called her. Um, they told me
that they found him, but that's all they would tell
me at that time. Did you ask any questions? Did
you think I jumped in a car? And did you
think they were alive? They wouldn't. Did you ask them?
I I I went tell him. I just told asked
(25:59):
them take me to him. I said, they found him.
I wouldn't even ask him if they were how they
found him. I just said, let me, let me needs me.
You need to take me to her. Now. UM. The
thing of it is, we had found out before. Some
of the officials that were at the trailhead. They kept saying, no,
they had no they had nice. Yeah, they found him,
(26:19):
they found him. So UM. They didn't officially call us
in until later, but we knew. We knew before. UM
we were officially told. You knew what that they had
been killed, we had friends, and that we're in the
search party that found them. So they called you and
(26:42):
said we found him. The wife called you and said
she didn't call me, she called somebody. The husband was
with one of the groups. The wife was in my group,
and he called her. But they wouldn't tell me any
All they would tell me was they found her. They
found him. So you race, you all converge and what happens.
(27:02):
I was actually already at the fire department. I had
my dad was coming back from Michigan. I don't I
don't know why I waited. I don't know that I
waited so long ato call. But much like the day
that I had to call him to tell him I
was expecting Abby and I was not married. I'm sitting
there and my best friend she's like, you really need
to call your dad and let him know he's no
more and gotten home from this weekend with Abby. He's
(27:24):
back in Michigan. It is four in the morning, he's
getting up for work. She's like, just just call him,
and he and I remember the first that Yeah, the
first thing he said was why didn't you call me
sooner said, because I thought we'd find him or later.
So I'm waiting at the fire department for him to
get there and he had gotten there just an hour prior,
so he's asking questions. He's telling him where they stayed
for the weekend, who they talked to, all those things.
(27:46):
And I was on the phone with somebody from uh
from out of town that I lived there, and he
knew that are He said, how, hi's the water right now?
And I was like, well, not that bad. And I
turned around and there was a quad that had pulled
up and I was like, hey, how has the water
and the scale screamed at and she's like, not right now.
And I'm like, all right, okay, never mind. And all
(28:06):
of a sudden, the pastor comes walking towards me and
he starts talking. I'm like, hey, hey, I gotta go,
and he said okay, and I hung up the phone
and he said, does anybody talked to you in the
last few minutes and or come up to you? And
I said no. He says, we need to go upstairs. Okay.
I didn't heft to have to hear anything past that.
(28:29):
I knew if there was something good, I wouldn't have
heard it quite that way. We know. At that juncture,
a photo emerged of a white male walking across the
bridge at Delphi and I remember thanking, where did this
photo come from? How do we have the photo? There's
no security surveillance video of photos on the bridge, and
(28:55):
I thought, is this from the girls bound? The girls
were found, they'd be killed not far from the bridge,
just what a thousand feet down like you would go
over the bridge and then you're on land and then
(29:16):
go down to where the water was. And that it
was amazing to me that they were not found sooner,
Not that it would have made difference, but there may
have been more for insic clues if they had been
found sooner. I don't know for sure that that's true,
but that is where they were found. And then a
search of the girl of the one phone revealed that
(29:40):
she had the wherewithal she got this guy's voice telling
them to go down essentially, and I keep wondering what
did he have that made the girls obey him? Did
he have a gun? Did he have a knife? Uh?
Why didn't they run? Maybe their conditioned, like my children,
to do what adult to tell them to do. I
(30:01):
don't know why they went down there, but that is
where they were fine found and that is where the
investigation begins. And this is the stuffer they've got the
guy's photo, they've got his voice, they can time exactly
when this happened, but still no perpetrator. Let me just
ask generally, is there any of the perpetrators d NA
(30:26):
at all? In any way? We've never been officially told
er until much like Jerry Holman said yesterday, they have
never specified one way or the other. They came uh
to our homes, took all of our DNA, as they
should so, because they said, we need to know who
belongs in the house. Foods got it? Who has stuff
(30:46):
on them that belongs there? You wash your clothes in
the same washroom dryer, you sit on the same couches,
you have people come over. They I mean, they didn't
ask first there any unknown male DNA the one way,
or the scant cells, be it saliva, be its sperm,
be it anything. Do you know if there's any male
(31:07):
DNA there? I think that's something that's the investigators know,
you know what I mean, that's that's information that's pertinent
into the case. And I hate to use this term,
but but to protect the integrity of the investigation, that
doesn't need to get out. And the reason that's asking
is because of Golden State Killer, which was a major advancement.
(31:28):
And I've been wondering about that in the past. But
you all know the Golden State Killer, who we know
murdered at least twelve, raped many more, one home burglaries,
at least fifty rape victims at least DNA was found
and finally they thought ding ding, and they plugged it
into for instance, ancestry dot com and it got familial
(31:51):
DNA matches to another male relative. They go to him,
they rule him out. Then they figure out as St.
Angelo and they get the Golden State Killer. It's him. Okay,
he's matched up to DNA. So that's when I'm wondering
and hoping, and I'm also hoping Joseph's got more than
you're the forensics expert, that they will also be using
(32:11):
the that in other words, the most modern DNA technology
where there's touch DNA that you leave behind actual skin cells.
Believe it or not, touch DNA can now beat Okay,
so jose got what what? Now We've got his picture,
we've got his voice, we've got the time he was there.
(32:32):
I would think if it was a local inhabitant, a resident,
somebody would have ideed him by now he's not a
disguise cho. He has some facial hair and a hat.
But we can figure out how tall he is, how
much he weighs. Remember in mid Lothian, you can, for instance,
Alan standing there. If I'm the FBI, I'm a cot,
(32:53):
I can measure to the top of that cross in
the door and I can say that's how tall Alan
Duki is. I can look look at him photographically and
determine how much he weighs based on that, So we
know how tall he is. We know he's a white male,
his hair color, how much he weighs, what his voice is,
where he was, but we don't have him, Joe Scott.
(33:14):
The most important thing that we want to consider here,
and I think that it always goes back to this,
is the idea of timeline. The timeline is very very
critical in this case. You know when UH, when I
first came in contact with this case, I think that
I was on the air within two days, and when
(33:36):
I heard about the nature of it, I was shocked.
I was absolutely shocked because I knew that as a
result of this UH of what they were saying, I
was like, this is gonna be a home run. They're
gonna catch this guy immediately because it's contained. You guys
had this grid search that was going on. A lot
of this information was coming out in regards to this,
(33:57):
and so as time went by, when things didn't gel
like I thought that they would at that moment time,
I was kind of surprised because the bodies were contained
in this specific area that were found immediately adjacent to
the bridge. It's a small community, it's a rural community.
I think that now moving forward, um, the police and
(34:19):
police are give me I'm gonna be blunt at the
police have used the words heinous a couple of times,
and that tells me that there is contact going on,
and I think that that goes without saying I think
to what point there is contact, physical contact, and what
the nature of injuries are. One of the things I
would very be very curious about is this was the
corner present at the scene. I'm not talking about autopsies.
(34:41):
I want to know was the corner present at the scene,
what type of examination was done at the scene, because
for me, one of the things I want to know
is I want to understand what's called post mortem interval.
How long had these two girls been deceased, and that
had to be at that moment in time. I spent
(35:02):
the reason I'm kind of having attachment to this, I
spent several years in Indiana training corners. I taught at
their State Corners Academy, and I know that these people
are trained very well, considering the limitations they have in
rural areas. I would want to know what kind of
attention was paid at the scene to some of the
steps that we take in the examination of remains at
the scene, How was it documented, how were they able
(35:24):
to process this? I'm not talking about the cops. And
then I know that the girls remains were taken to
Terror Hope, which is what it's almost what an hour
and forty five minutes from y'all's location, where the further
examination was conducted at that point in time. I want
to know what how much attention to detail did they
pay at that at that moment in time. Uh and
(35:46):
the measurements, particularly things like and again forgive me, but
things like body temperature. We have the picture of the
perpetrator and by now nobody in the area can identify
this person. Do you believe and I wanted to ask
this question, do you believe that anyone is covering up
for someone in Locally, it would be assumed that somebody
(36:10):
knows who this is and for whatever reason, they haven't
come forward yet. A mother, a sister, a family member.
Maybe they haven't though maybe they really just don't know.
But you get that feeling that somebody you don't have
reason to think someone's covering up for the part, but
that they really don't know. And I'm asking you ideal
with faction data. That's kind of guy. I'm an engineer,
and I mean, could he be? Yeah, we can talk
(36:30):
theories and any people in Delhi three thousand, Okay, so
is he there? Could be? I don't see how I
really did not find it in a town of three
thousand that nobody knows this man. Well, that's just it.
We aren't a big I mean there's probably ten thousand
people in our whole county maybe town. In no way.
(36:52):
I mean, this is very accurate in detail. I know
I had to jump in. So one of the other
things to keep in mind, or what amazing girls you raised.
One of them took the picture as that that person
walking and Nancy. The point I would make with that
is trust your gut. I have no doubt she never
would have taken a picture of him approaching if they
(37:14):
knew him, Why would they take a picture of a clandestine,
you know, person walking towards them. So I, in my mind,
this is someone they did not know from the community.
Is brilliant, you know what. It leads me to think
that he had done something other than I passed all
of you guys in the hall. I didn't say, oh,
take a picture. They he had to do something agree
(37:35):
to make them go, oh, we're gonna take his pictures.
Let's see who has an idea that can help us. Yes,
they breathe put it in a nutshell. Hi, thank you.
I'd like to know if they've given you any profile
of this killer, and if they have, what would be
the profile. I haven't received a profile other than like
(37:57):
the estimated weight, height, size, um. As far as an
actual person itself. Uh no, I think there's what the
investigators leading on the fact that we do have some
good heart evidence. We like you said, we got a picture,
we got a sketch, you know, we got a voice.
I still say, somebody out there knows, and that person
may not know about this case. I mean they know
(38:18):
the guy. This guy lives beside somebody, somebody's friends, somebody's coworker.
We just need to reach that person and through you know,
through something like this, people helped spread it out. Eventually
we'll get to that right person who has the wherewithal
to make that call. I have the police looked at
their internet, their iPads, their cell phones, everything. One of
the first things they did was gather all of our stuff,
(38:39):
our phones, the tablets, the passwords. We actually had to
go and file for estates on the girls to get
Apple and Google to release those things. That was one
of the first things they saw in including with the
snapchat photo that Libby took a b abbey. There is
no evidence whatsoever that they were intending on meeting anybody
that day that as far as we know, they have
(39:01):
not found anything. And that's so they said, we weren't.
They weren't planning on many anybody. They didn't even really
tell anybody they were going. So this wasn't a I
know the girls are gonna be out there and we're
coming out to investigate, and it would be one of
the first avenues. John David asked all the time, can
he have like group chats? I'm like, unless it's somebody
at school that you know no, because you're probably talking
(39:21):
to some sixty five year old guy in New Jersey
and his underwear and you don't want that, and he's
pretending he's eight, okay, and he's playing Minecraft or whatever
with you. Everybody, we are here at crime con and
we have with us the family of Liberty and Abby
who lost their lives at the bridge in Delphi. We
(39:42):
have a live studio audience and we are looking for
clues if there is DNA, for example, if there was
some kind of encounter. If there's DNA under the fingernails,
it tells me that maybe this might be a person
that's never been in trouble. I find that very hard
to believe with his age. I don't just jump up
(40:02):
at age forty something and kill two little girls. But
Nancy with no d N A, I mean it has
I guess you on the DNA because I don't know
that there's DNA and they don't know because nobody's saying
so I can't follow that it's natural route. But so
I'm backing up. Remember when we tried cases without d NA, Think, think, think,
(40:25):
and this is how we did it. So do you
guys know if they have gone to a drifter didn't
just walk there from forty five miles away. Other places
have surveillance video, not that bridge. But do we know
if that has been gathered from as she said, gas station's,
truck stops, restaurants. Yes, it has been. It has been.
(40:47):
But it's a great idea, you're right. I mean that's
what we're here for. You know, if there's something that
we haven't done, we definitely want to know about it.
And Nancy, can I just say think about this. It
doesn't mean that he hasn't done something in the past.
He has. Likely he's a predator. What it means is
he's never been caught. So people need to look at
is this somebody, Oh we have a relative, they'd never
do that. Every criminal out there. I think he's thinking
(41:08):
they did it. I'm telling you right, he has something
he hasn't arrest somewhere. Yeah. One of the things I
was warning, do they have any evidence of primitive camping
around there at all? I mean, do people commonly primitive camp?
There is there evidence in there that you know, you've
got you've got people that primitive camp in that particular area,
and they would go unnoticed. Uh, you know, so is
(41:30):
there evidence of any campground at all, primitive camping where
there's just random fires that have been set and that
sort of thing. Um, not that I came across. I
actually did a grid search out there shortly after this
all happened. I couldn't just sit idle Um cleared up
with the FBI and the police and said, hey, I
got some buddies and got about a dozen of us
and kind of gritted the whole area out and did
(41:51):
a search looking for stuff because you know what, I'm thinking,
he's eating things like beanie wheenies or whatever it is
that he's eating. May be a tarp maybe. Uh. You
know how when you can drive by the bridge and
you see blankets, it may be something that rudimentary. Um,
I'm just wondering if another search of the area for
that very thing, because it took a while to find them,
(42:16):
How do I know that there's not something out there
like a tarp, like a sleeping bag, like a blanket,
like anything. Uh, A can that might have a fingerprint
on it. Where he was? Do you look at his clothes?
Did he just show up that day or had he
been there? He's got on several layers, right, yeah, absolutely,
that's what hides a lot of his features as well.
(42:38):
But you know, did you did you arrive on a
motorcycle uncannily warm, overly dressed? In my opinion, these are
questions that we have that we don't have as the motorcycle.
Is there an area like a surveillance area, like a
truck stop or something like that that we can look for, Oh,
we don't have. We're not big enough our truck stop.
(42:59):
We have what we call gas station. You know. I'm
also wondering about his clothing, like, for instance, specifically that
hat in the jacket, what kind it is, where it
could be purchased. I mean, you can identify a trash
bag from the lot, the manufacturer, the store, where where
it was purchased. What about that? That's gonna meet some
(43:21):
serious FBI work on that. Absolutely. And that's that's the
the picture that was taken from the video off of
Libby's phone. It's we tried to clear it up, and
I've been told that they've sent it to several different places,
you know, NASA, Disney, all kinds of places, But it
comes down to pixelation, and there's only you know, you
can only polish it so much. Now you don't want
(43:42):
to change or altar that because that begins to mess
with the integrity again the information for the investigation. You
can't go in there and change it around saying Okay,
I bet he noses this big, I bet his lips
are that big. Well, then you're making it look like
somebody defense attorney's gonna come in and that of the
clothing and go take it to a location. And if
he is on a motorcycle or has a car, for instance,
(44:05):
that makes him more substantial. That means he's got an
apartment or a home as a whole different line of investigation,
as opposed to a drifter that might have been eating
out of a canatuna pop talk somewhere in those woods,
which is a whole another line of investigation. To research
the area, I mean, I don't mean research look it
up the line, I mean walk it. No, I understand, yeah,
(44:27):
and that trust me, that area has been walked very well.
I spent two weeks out there doing it myself, as
well as a bunch of other people. And also that
most of this is all private property. It's very very
reviewed by these people. You don't go on there, you'll
get arrested. But what were they looking for when you
were searching any anything and everything out of the ordinary
was the direction that I give him. I said, anything
that looks out of place, if it's not a stick
(44:47):
or twig or something suggestion, And we did. I'm not
saying there's not something there. I mean, I'm not perfect,
but I did a pretty thorough search. Thank you for
being here. My name is Lynn King. I'm a private
investigator out of Atlanta, what we also called Nancy Grace
land Um. Anyway, but now I just wanted to say that,
(45:08):
you know, obviously, you know I've heard lots of coverage
on this. Just you know, I think you've kind of
already answered my question. I wanted to find out where
was the nearest like truck stop because I just don't
I just don't feel like this was a drifter. I
don't feel like it's somebody that was camped out there.
This I just felt like he was a crime of opportunity.
(45:28):
But I feel like he was prepared to do a crime.
And look at his physique. He had not missed a meal.
This is not some homeless person that doesn't have anything
to eat, that's shuffling for just money for food, this
guy is eating on a regular basis. So to answer
(45:50):
your question, about fifteen mile away to the north is
the nearest truck stop. Obviously we have gas station somewhere. Yeah.
I don't get the feeling he's local, but I feel
like he was prepared that day to carry out a crime.
I feel like he's already been in that area, so
he already knew how remote it was. And also just
(46:12):
you know, when it comes to cases like the way,
that's another thought. Listen, when you have predators walking along
a track, they're not there to exercise. She's right, he
was there. It was either a crime of opportunity where
he wanted to rob somebody of get money and he
saw the girls and his motive changed. But he was
there to do a felony, which also narrows down who
(46:38):
we're looking for. We're looking for a guy that I
think has a record. It could be for something petty
like um peeping tom or snatching, grab breaking in a car, something.
Because he didn't start at age forty plus. This is
not a homeless guy because he's well fed, his clothes
(46:58):
are decent, so and he's there to commit a felony
and he's not local. That's a lot of information. Has
anybody looked through the school district. I'm a teacher. If
this is an opportunity and he's been there to walk
the trails before, maybe he knew that the kids were
out of school that day. I'm not saying that he
watched your daughters one granddaughter. What I'm saying is, have
(47:21):
you checked through the school website where there are multiple
hits to look at your school calendar to see if
this guy knew that the school was going to be
out that day. That's good, that's a good point. I'll
take that one. There were people that looked that assumed
that well it had to been public knowledge that the
kids didn't have school that day. Well, yeah, if you
lived in the school district. But I don't go into
the Tennessee website and say, oh, well look at the
(47:43):
what school isn't going to be in school in session
in spring break? But I know you wouldn't but a
predator either. You're you are correct, guys. I know this
is totally politically incorrect. But before we close our podcast,
our serious radio show, m I want you to join
me and pray for an answer for them. Father, help
(48:06):
these families seek justice and lead us to help them
in any way we can amen with me right now,
the families of Abbey Williams and Libby Liberty German, help
us find them, help us find their killers. It's so
(48:30):
hard for me to even say their killers. When I
look at their pictures and I'll look at you, they
see so alive, and when you talk about their art
supplies and the time you saw them. The tip line
is eight four four four or five nine, five, seven,
eight six. The website is Abbey A B. B Y
and Libby l I B b Y dot org Abbey
(48:53):
and Libby dot org. There is a two hundred and
forty thousand dollar reward. These girls were brutally murdered and
their killer is walking free, and we will not forget
and we will not rest until he has been brought
to justice. Tip line eight four four four, five, nine,
(49:14):
five seven eight six eight four four four, five, nine, five,
seven eight six. Nancy Grace Crime Stories signing off, good
Bye fight
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Visit truth finder dot com slash Nancy, enter your own name.
Get started Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on sirius x
M Triumph Channel one thirty two. Hello everybody, we are
(01:05):
live here at Crime con in Nashville, Tennessee, where we
are all assembled three thousands strong in our pursuit to
stop crime. Right now, we go to Delphi, Delphi now
known because of the deaths of two little girls, a
(01:25):
tiny town and know more than three thousand people still
in shock after Liberty and Abigail are found dead. It's
been well over a year and still even though the
little girl's killer is caught on camera when the girls
(01:45):
snapped his picture on that trestle bridge, we have his voice,
we possibly have his DNA, but still no arrest. Why
struggling to understand, struggling to make sense of it all
Our Liberty and Abby's families who are with us now
(02:07):
here at Crime con answering your questions and listening to
your tips, clues and interpretation of the facts. This is
crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. I want
to go straight to our guests with me, our Liberty's grandparents,
Mike and Becky Patty, and Abby's mother, Anna Williams. Anna,
(02:29):
So did she go? Did you take her to the
park to meet up? Yeah? I picked limb up and
we'd taken it. What time of the day was it
the day before? Oh? It was. It was kind of
like the weather out here. It was not the nicest day.
It was kind of wendy and overcast. It was probably
about one thirty or two o'closs, still daylight. Then what happened? Um? So,
I we'd gone to the house and gathered up her
(02:51):
things and I dropped them off um, and she spent
the night and Um, I worked two japs at that time.
So I was finishing up my shift at the some
home and she had texts me and said, is it
okay if I stay for dinner? And this is like
at twelve thirty, and I said, let's was at your house?
She was at their house and I said, well that's fine,
but I have to be at my other job at four.
(03:11):
So if you can't stay until eight and somebody can't,
you know, it's gonna be one of those deals. Either
you stay until I can get off of work, or
if you know, Kelsey's come back to town or they're
you know, want to get rid of you, they'll have
to drop you off of the house because I can't
get you. And she said it's fine. So I said, okay,
I will see you after. Oh I know that when
the parent can't come and go, oh, I'll take I'll
(03:32):
trap a mom. I'm happy to okay, I'll take a phone. So,
so you're at work. Did you go pick him up? No? Okay,
they were, she was still at the house. I was.
I was at my uh bart stop. So now I've
got them at your place, right, Okay, we're both of
(03:52):
you there, guys, I'm now speaking. That was Abby's mom
and and now I'm speaking to Matt, Mike and Becky.
What happened? Tell me that day from the time they
got there for dinner. Oll, they went upstairs. Of course,
Abbey come bringing in a big old tote of paint. Paint. Yeah,
(04:14):
they were gonna paint. Ah. Of course, the Libby's room
when nearly as organized as Abbey's her stuffs there everywhere
still is. Um he walked through and you find some
paint here, and you find some paint there, and all
of our other stuff. But uh, so they went upstairs
and they've of course, you know how kids do, they
(04:36):
take lots of selfies and videos, and so we know
what they were doing that night because Libby did some
videos and of Abbey there painting, and and we there
is there is a canvas there of where they started
a new painting, said chocolate. Imagine that I was right.
I can't remember. There was something wrong with one of
(04:58):
the letters that was. So they you, um, they were
up in the room doing their their thing, and they
of course they're up half the night girls stuff, girls
talking and whatever, and um, they slept and they and
then the next morning was Monday, and we had a
snow makeup day where the weather was so good that okay,
(05:19):
I see that means something to me, that a snow
makeup day. So okay, what was there? What did they do?
The next morning? They slept in, They slept in and
they got up, but I don't know its ten o'clock
and uh, they have pancakes for breakfast brunch and uh.
And they came out and said, we want something to do. Well,
(05:42):
my my office is at home. And I said, dreaded words,
what can we do? And that was Libby all time.
If she if she had to set still for five minutes,
it's we're gonna do something this weekend? Are we gonna?
You know what we're doing? What's plans? So we were
quite busy with her. Um, and I said, you know what,
I got files that need to be filed. You want
to make some money? Bet they were. They were out
(06:05):
there working away, and especially if he said, I'll take
your shop, and you know you do this for me,
I'll take your shopping. So they were out there and um,
they and Kelsey, Libby's sister, come out and said, hey,
I'm gonna stop by a friend's house for a little
bit and then I have to be at work for Libby.
That's all it took. She jumped up and said, hey,
(06:28):
because it was a beautiful day, it was action drop
us off. Hey we she and I said, well, what
about this filing. We'll do it later. I promise we'll
do it later. And uh so, I said, well that's fine.
You um she said, can Kelsey drop us off with
the trails? And I said, well, okay, but I'm busy.
You're gonna have to get a ride home. No, what
(06:49):
are the trails we have around our town. We have
a trail. It's a it's a community trail system that
there's what eight or nine miles worth of trails that
just goes clear around our town, all the way around.
And they had just opened up this section of the
trails not too long a couple of years because they
put a new road in and they put a historic bridge.
(07:11):
Had no reason to think, oh, there were there was
people out there that morning and that day like jogging
and all that. There's there's some that jog, but there
was a lot of kids out. That's the trails is
what our kids do. There's not a lot to do
in Delphi. So you know, you go walk and bike
the trails and and out there that bridge. What people
don't realize, so many families have had their pictures taken
(07:32):
out there. You know, it looks like a place you
could see, uh, like a wedding photo done on the bridge,
you know how you do those scenic photos. It's not
just in the church anymore. And it's very pritty, and
it looks out over a river. It's a creek. But so, um,
(07:52):
my son was out running some errands and so she
Livy's dad and she called him and said, hey, if
Kelsey takes us to the trails, will you pick us up.
He says, well, I'll be another hour, so I'll pick
you up on my way back through. So so one hour.
So it was it wasn't gonna be that long. We
knew it wasn't gonna be that long. And it was nice.
(08:14):
It was nice and right, they're going to be well,
not for sure, he said, about an hour or so.
You know, I'm not so Kelsey took them and dropped
them off, just getting me so upset because um and
I've even done it. Okay, okay, they'll be okay for
thirty minutes. It's just thirty minutes. I'll run to Kroeber
(08:36):
and I'll come back thirty minutes and then I'm not
up the whole time. So an hour and a half
that was it. So they go, we dropped. It's your
last memory of her? She was standing at the door
of the office with this smile that she has, and
(08:58):
I said, it could be a little chilly out there.
You get a jacket. She sitting grandma. I said, I
told you, get a jacket. She just looked at me
and smiled and said, I'll be okay. It's okay, granmall
and she turned and walked out. My last memories of
her standing at my office door telling me it's okay.
I'm not gonna get a gold. So that's that's my
(09:20):
last memory. What is your last memory? Dropping her off
at their house with her with their paints. And it
wasn't until later on when we when we got to
the Sheriff's department and actually, um, I saw the snapchat picture.
But that's the last picture I have. That is the
last visual I have with my little girl. It's on
(09:41):
that bridge, you know. I think about that so often.
I think about Abby and Liberty when I dropped the
children at school, and I watched him walk in. Because
of Karen Horman, a little boy in the Pacific Northwest,
this step mother dropped him off. I'll watch him walk
in almost to the door, and I remember, think about
it every morning. And you know, Renee Rockwell, defense lawyer,
(10:04):
You've told me a hundred times about the last time.
Remember you saw your ex and he had put the
laundry in and it all turned pink? Remember, and he
do you remember that? Yes? I still have the pink towels.
And so when people are confused about the last time
they see someone or the last thing, that I know
(10:26):
right then, because I remember the last time I saw
my fiancee. He come to Macon. He was living in Athens, Georgia,
and spent the weekend with me and my family. And
we got like five o'clock that morning and he left
to get to work, and he drove off in a
white Lamons and he to the horn and held his
hand up and I watched him go out of sight.
(10:47):
And that's the last time I ever saw him. And
I have thought about it and dreamed about it so
many times. When was the next time, What was the
next thing you hurt. Tell me from your point of view, Well, um, again,
these times are going to be close because we've been
(11:08):
we've been scrutinized on many times. I mean, it's all approximations.
Again that they were probably dropped off around one thirty
time frame. Derek called him about a quarter after three
that Derek is the dad who's going to pick him up.
So about a quarter after three he calls him no
answer to tell him, Hey, I'm I'm just about there.
Come pick me up, you know, or come to the car,
(11:30):
and continues to call actually he's there. He gets, yeah, yes,
pulling up. But this is what we call trailhead, you know,
a little little area to part um. So he said
he got out and was walking, you know, trying to
text him. In about three thirty or so, like called
Becky and said, hey, I can't get ahold of Libal
should not answer and give her a call, and so
(11:51):
she tried calling, and then the our our daughter Tara
tried calling. So everybody's texting and calling and she's not
returning and that's way out of character. I mean, you know,
kids have their phone and that is there. That's it.
And uh so Becky called me probably about a quarter
till four. So I wasn't at working off yet and said, hey,
(12:15):
Libby's not answering something wrong. We're heading out there. It's
just not doesn't seem right. I said, okay, said I'll
head that way, just thinking, okay, where the you know,
first thing goes. They hooked up with some boys. They're
out doing they they're not answering their phone because I
don't want to get caught. And then so by four
o'clock most of the family is there. We're trying to
(12:35):
I've been trying to get ahold of her. She's at work.
I show up there probably about four thirty. Time I
get out of work. The trail had the trail head,
and of course I jump out and I'm starting to look.
She leaves at that time to go find Anna. I'm like, hey,
we need you know everybody. Let me ask you all
a question. How many times have you been looking at
a store or you're somewhere and you try you don't
(12:56):
see your child? Happened me once and I'll never forget it,
And it was you've heard me tell the stories that
the baby's or us and some mother had guilted me
out because she made her own organic sunscreen. I'm like, okay,
So I'm there trying to find organic sunscreen because I
was visualizing like a witch over apop me trying to
cook some up. And uh so I bent down and
(13:19):
they had the like it lows or something. They have
the shelves all the way up. So I'm down on
the floor looking at the bottom trying to find organic sunscreen.
And I stand up and they're only renee what were
they like three? And they were wearing those little crops
which are silent. And I turned around. There's Lucy and
no John David and I had practiced all kind of
(13:40):
emergency procedures. I grabbed Lucy like a football and started screaming,
screaming lot the doors and this that moment you turn
around and they're not there. I'm getting chills. They're remembering it.
When did it hit you? Something is wrong? I think
(14:04):
we all realized once you wouldn't answer her phone after
the third or fourth call from everybody in the text.
When I got there at again after four, UM like, okay,
maybe they've dropped their phone, you know what I mean?
Because there's water, they're a creek, and um, did they
(14:24):
both have a phone no, Aby did not. Abby did
not have mine don't have a phone yet either, So
Liberty had the phone. And you see, that's what people do,
That's what I do. I think of every possible thing
that could happen. Maybe they dropped it in the water. Okay,
all right, so we fig're okay, they're that or they're lost,
you know what I mean. They just wandered off the
trail system. Cell phone service is not great out through there,
(14:46):
I mean patchy at best. You get certain marryas and
all that. And if they were wandered around off the trail,
so you're all three there at this point, I did
not know I actually met them. They She finally got
ahold of me. We missed each other's phone call, isn't
it because I didn't even have her that name in
this new phone that I had. And I was like, finally,
I'm like, you know what's up? She said, we're headed
the Sheriff's apartment. The girls want to walk this and
(15:07):
I was like, all right, all right, let me when
we close out a couple of things, I'll be there
just a few minutes, and hollered one of the girls
in the back that time. Did you really think anything
was wrong. No, because unfortunately they those girls had had
been in the school pool watching Kelsey practice and they
didn't have cell phone service, and it was I'm gonna
stay with Liberty until the game, and then she was
(15:28):
supposed to meet me for some Abby was supposed to
meet me for some money, and she hadn't And um,
I mean, so it happened before that you couldn't reach well,
not so much, they were right there at the school,
they just didn't have service. But I mean I thought, okay,
plans of change. And then I'd gotten a message from
Liberally saying Dabby is with me, and I was like,
this is probably another one of those things. Yes, it's
been a few hours, but I'm sure there's a say.
(15:50):
I'm just the exact opposite thirty minutes, smilies, I'm calling
nine one one because until they were thirteen and four exactly.
Mine is still just ten. So they haven't they don't
know what all they can get away with yet. When
did you realize something was not right at all? Well,
our whole family was out there looking. We all left Tara,
(16:12):
my daughter went straight over there. Derek was there. Um,
my son come pulling in from my other son, come
pulling in as I was leaving, and he said, what
are you doing. I said, We're gonna go look for
the girls. So he jumped in the car with me.
We drove if if they would have decided to walk home,
we drove both directions that they would have gone both routes.
(16:34):
We got there. We had six cars there. We were
taking over everything. Um. We we split up. We walked
all the trails. Um. Cody and Kelsey went across the bridge.
They went. They went across and and up to the
road and up to the houses up there were the
sheriffs there yet not yet by this time it was
a little after five. Was it getting dark? Not yet?
(16:54):
It wasn't, but I knew it was going And I
was on the phone most of the time with a
T and T trying to get them to ping her phone.
And they won't, they won't do it. I was just
gonna ask, will they do that, Vincent. I don't think
they'll just do it when you ask. No. Not right
off of that, No, I was arguing. I kept telling
that she's lost her and I know, well we can't.
Well they said, well you can get this one app great, Well,
(17:17):
well paying your phone, Well, you gotta put it on
her phone. I don't have her phone, So you know,
it was and that funny with the things that stick
in your mind about what was happening at that time.
So you're there, you think at this point everything is
probably just confusion. You guys are there trying to on foot,
trying to find them. When did you calling the cops?
(17:39):
It was about it. It was about twenty after five.
He come walking up on the trails and I said,
I'm not getting anywhere here. It's gonna get dark. It's
gonna get dark here pretty about my six or so.
I said, we've got to call the police. We've got
to get them looking for them before dark. We did, well,
you know, Vincent, at that point, what should police do first? Well, Nancy,
they probably should have come out with an amber alert
(18:00):
at that point. I mean, it had been several hours.
Don't you have to have a car tag to do
an amber alert? Yeah you do, But there's that's really
helping me. But are you in a perfect world for
several hours right by this point? They really I mean
they called again a quarter after three is when we
(18:21):
were going to pick them up. And at five twenty
I made the call the police. It wasn't several hours.
It was a couple of hours. The police immediately came
out there and dispatched, and we're on the scene, you know,
we're on the in the area walking. I guess the
only thing they could have done was bring dogs at
that time, because they didn't have a car to do
an amber alert in most places don't have like a
missing kittler. I don't think in the problem with the
dogs at that point, did they really have a missing
(18:44):
person When police first show up, they don't consider that
a missing person without the investigation first, you know, And
I get it. I am part of the justice system,
but I have a problem with that when time is critical.
So let me ask you this. Y'all stay out there
to what time that trying to find him? Oh? It was.
It was really a very hectic night. Obviously after calling
(19:06):
the police, then we rallied back at the police at
at the county police station. Oh man, how bad did
you hate to leave that part? Oh? I was there
several times throughout the night back and we were running
around town, driving around the town. Um, you know that
the police were trying to you know, look at they
were trying to paining her phone, and I think they
did end up getting some pain. I really saidn't know that. Yeah, yeah,
(19:28):
I don't know how accurate it was. It was earlier
during the day, like Anna said, we have some sketchy
phone service. You know, you can drive a half a
mile in from another tower and then if the falls off.
But no, we we spent There was a coordinated search
that started. I mean people started coming out and grows.
It was like volunteers all over the town. It was.
(19:51):
It was crazy that the our local fire department, they
were coordinating things, putting search parties together. People were you
could drive. We were driving everywhere. I'm checking every place
you think, okay, any of the parks that are there,
you know, up at the school, driving back out there
to that area. Uh, yelling, hollering you drive through town.
Later started getting dark, of course, and flashlights, so is
(20:14):
the light is a dark start of setting in? What
went through your mind? If anything, it's late and it's cold.
I mean you even maybe not so much here, but
in Indiana it'll go from an eighty degree day down
to thirty five degrees at night. And only one of
the girls and a sweatshirt on. I don't know why
(20:34):
Abby put one on as opposed to living there was
she listened to you, which you said, y'all need a jacket.
That was the whole thing is they're not wearing clothes.
If if they're outside, its hypothermia serious issue. Not yet
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When did they call you? And what? You know? How
did you find out that they had found the girls?
(22:22):
You were out searching. They had put they had gritted
out a lot of the areas that that night. No,
it was the next day. It was the next day. Um,
the police called off the search about midnight. You had
well that yeah, like she said that, the police, uh,
just for safety, said, I mean, we were searching all
(22:43):
over the whole area, literally probably hundreds of people at
this time, we're out searching. I went back to, of
course we've been out searching. We all were. And I
went back to the fire station with with the volunteers
that were there, and uh, it was probably around at
eleven o'clock, twelve o'clock, and they kind of called off
(23:04):
the fresh one. I don't know exactly what times, so
don't hold me to that, but they called off the
officials search and let let's resume in the morning. But
the volunteers said, no, and and and and they all
rally and said, all right, let's go back out there.
We're gonna light up these creek banks. We're gonna walk
this creek. And I mean, but was there enough water
for them to have drowned in it? There's spots and
(23:27):
deer creek. I mean, it's not a real Dame Creek.
I used to fish it when I was a kid.
But um, so you guys were still out there through
the night. When did they tell you they had found
the girls? Well, that wasn't until the next day. So
I'm just want people realized there was people searching all
night long. I don't think I went home until three
or four o'clock in the morning. But there's people said, Mike,
we're gonna stay out here all night. We'll see you
(23:48):
in the morning. But for a validation point. One of
the reasons why they said, as we are bringing in
dogs for Kentucky. So the fewer people that we have
out on that specific area. So the next day there
was a restricted to the last path. Because of that.
We had been both sent to our homes to get
clothes at the girls had warned the biggest thing was,
let's not confuse these animals anymore by all of these
(24:12):
people criss crossing. It's just the thing. So there was
some reasoning that was good for the fact that the
dogs were coming in and the and that is a protocol.
So what time did they let you know the next
day they had found the girls? I think we we
were where we all were at various points. I had
(24:34):
actually gotten in a canoe and floated down the creek
for probably half a mile. I'd just gotten out gotten
back to the fire station, um Becky was. They were
doing a very coordinated search, and that's how they worked
at the starting the next morning where hundreds and hundreds
of people were showing up, and they would send out
groups with some sort of lawfish or whether it was
(24:54):
you know, somebody from the fire station, because you're you
can't dis trespass on people's property, you know, if you
do it a it correct. Yeah, I remember that there
was a search. Weren't executed on the person's home and
property right now or where the girls were found. Everybody
immediately thought, wow, that must be the person of the purp,
but not necessarily that's just where where were you when
(25:16):
you learned that I was searching? They? We were all indifferent.
We were all split up because all he was in
a canoe, I was I was in a group. I
was in a group that wasn't even close at the time.
But a friend of ours was with one of the
groups that found them, and he and his wife was
(25:37):
with us, and he called her. Um, they told me
that they found him, but that's all they would tell
me at that time. Did you ask any questions? Did
you think I jumped in a car? And did you
think they were alive? They wouldn't. Did you ask them?
I I I went tell him. I just told asked
(25:59):
them take me to him. I said, they found him.
I wouldn't even ask him if they were how they
found him. I just said, let me, let me needs me.
You need to take me to her. Now. UM. The
thing of it is, we had found out before. Some
of the officials that were at the trailhead. They kept saying, no,
they had no they had nice. Yeah, they found him,
(26:19):
they found him. So UM. They didn't officially call us
in until later, but we knew. We knew before. UM
we were officially told. You knew what that they had
been killed, we had friends, and that we're in the
search party that found them. So they called you and
(26:42):
said we found him. The wife called you and said
she didn't call me, she called somebody. The husband was
with one of the groups. The wife was in my group,
and he called her. But they wouldn't tell me any
All they would tell me was they found her. They
found him. So you race, you all converge and what happens.
(27:02):
I was actually already at the fire department. I had
my dad was coming back from Michigan. I don't I
don't know why I waited. I don't know that I
waited so long ato call. But much like the day
that I had to call him to tell him I
was expecting Abby and I was not married. I'm sitting
there and my best friend she's like, you really need
to call your dad and let him know he's no
more and gotten home from this weekend with Abby. He's
(27:24):
back in Michigan. It is four in the morning, he's
getting up for work. She's like, just just call him,
and he and I remember the first that Yeah, the
first thing he said was why didn't you call me
sooner said, because I thought we'd find him or later.
So I'm waiting at the fire department for him to
get there and he had gotten there just an hour prior,
so he's asking questions. He's telling him where they stayed
for the weekend, who they talked to, all those things.
(27:46):
And I was on the phone with somebody from uh
from out of town that I lived there, and he
knew that are He said, how, hi's the water right now?
And I was like, well, not that bad. And I
turned around and there was a quad that had pulled
up and I was like, hey, how has the water
and the scale screamed at and she's like, not right now.
And I'm like, all right, okay, never mind. And all
(28:06):
of a sudden, the pastor comes walking towards me and
he starts talking. I'm like, hey, hey, I gotta go,
and he said okay, and I hung up the phone
and he said, does anybody talked to you in the
last few minutes and or come up to you? And
I said no. He says, we need to go upstairs. Okay.
I didn't heft to have to hear anything past that.
(28:29):
I knew if there was something good, I wouldn't have
heard it quite that way. We know. At that juncture,
a photo emerged of a white male walking across the
bridge at Delphi and I remember thanking, where did this
photo come from? How do we have the photo? There's
no security surveillance video of photos on the bridge, and
(28:55):
I thought, is this from the girls bound? The girls
were found, they'd be killed not far from the bridge,
just what a thousand feet down like you would go
over the bridge and then you're on land and then
(29:16):
go down to where the water was. And that it
was amazing to me that they were not found sooner,
Not that it would have made difference, but there may
have been more for insic clues if they had been
found sooner. I don't know for sure that that's true,
but that is where they were found. And then a
search of the girl of the one phone revealed that
(29:40):
she had the wherewithal she got this guy's voice telling
them to go down essentially, and I keep wondering what
did he have that made the girls obey him? Did
he have a gun? Did he have a knife? Uh?
Why didn't they run? Maybe their conditioned, like my children,
to do what adult to tell them to do. I
(30:01):
don't know why they went down there, but that is
where they were fine found and that is where the
investigation begins. And this is the stuffer they've got the
guy's photo, they've got his voice, they can time exactly
when this happened, but still no perpetrator. Let me just
ask generally, is there any of the perpetrators d NA
(30:26):
at all? In any way? We've never been officially told
er until much like Jerry Holman said yesterday, they have
never specified one way or the other. They came uh
to our homes, took all of our DNA, as they
should so, because they said, we need to know who
belongs in the house. Foods got it? Who has stuff
(30:46):
on them that belongs there? You wash your clothes in
the same washroom dryer, you sit on the same couches,
you have people come over. They I mean, they didn't
ask first there any unknown male DNA the one way,
or the scant cells, be it saliva, be its sperm,
be it anything. Do you know if there's any male
(31:07):
DNA there? I think that's something that's the investigators know,
you know what I mean, that's that's information that's pertinent
into the case. And I hate to use this term,
but but to protect the integrity of the investigation, that
doesn't need to get out. And the reason that's asking
is because of Golden State Killer, which was a major advancement.
(31:28):
And I've been wondering about that in the past. But
you all know the Golden State Killer, who we know
murdered at least twelve, raped many more, one home burglaries,
at least fifty rape victims at least DNA was found
and finally they thought ding ding, and they plugged it
into for instance, ancestry dot com and it got familial
(31:51):
DNA matches to another male relative. They go to him,
they rule him out. Then they figure out as St.
Angelo and they get the Golden State Killer. It's him. Okay,
he's matched up to DNA. So that's when I'm wondering
and hoping, and I'm also hoping Joseph's got more than
you're the forensics expert, that they will also be using
(32:11):
the that in other words, the most modern DNA technology
where there's touch DNA that you leave behind actual skin cells.
Believe it or not, touch DNA can now beat Okay,
so jose got what what? Now We've got his picture,
we've got his voice, we've got the time he was there.
(32:32):
I would think if it was a local inhabitant, a resident,
somebody would have ideed him by now he's not a
disguise cho. He has some facial hair and a hat.
But we can figure out how tall he is, how
much he weighs. Remember in mid Lothian, you can, for instance,
Alan standing there. If I'm the FBI, I'm a cot,
(32:53):
I can measure to the top of that cross in
the door and I can say that's how tall Alan
Duki is. I can look look at him photographically and
determine how much he weighs based on that, So we
know how tall he is. We know he's a white male,
his hair color, how much he weighs, what his voice is,
where he was, but we don't have him, Joe Scott.
(33:14):
The most important thing that we want to consider here,
and I think that it always goes back to this,
is the idea of timeline. The timeline is very very
critical in this case. You know when UH, when I
first came in contact with this case, I think that
I was on the air within two days, and when
(33:36):
I heard about the nature of it, I was shocked.
I was absolutely shocked because I knew that as a
result of this UH of what they were saying, I
was like, this is gonna be a home run. They're
gonna catch this guy immediately because it's contained. You guys
had this grid search that was going on. A lot
of this information was coming out in regards to this,
(33:57):
and so as time went by, when things didn't gel
like I thought that they would at that moment time,
I was kind of surprised because the bodies were contained
in this specific area that were found immediately adjacent to
the bridge. It's a small community, it's a rural community.
I think that now moving forward, um, the police and
(34:19):
police are give me I'm gonna be blunt at the
police have used the words heinous a couple of times,
and that tells me that there is contact going on,
and I think that that goes without saying I think
to what point there is contact, physical contact, and what
the nature of injuries are. One of the things I
would very be very curious about is this was the
corner present at the scene. I'm not talking about autopsies.
(34:41):
I want to know was the corner present at the scene,
what type of examination was done at the scene, because
for me, one of the things I want to know
is I want to understand what's called post mortem interval.
How long had these two girls been deceased, and that
had to be at that moment in time. I spent
(35:02):
the reason I'm kind of having attachment to this, I
spent several years in Indiana training corners. I taught at
their State Corners Academy, and I know that these people
are trained very well, considering the limitations they have in
rural areas. I would want to know what kind of
attention was paid at the scene to some of the
steps that we take in the examination of remains at
the scene, How was it documented, how were they able
(35:24):
to process this? I'm not talking about the cops. And
then I know that the girls remains were taken to
Terror Hope, which is what it's almost what an hour
and forty five minutes from y'all's location, where the further
examination was conducted at that point in time. I want
to know what how much attention to detail did they
pay at that at that moment in time. Uh and
(35:46):
the measurements, particularly things like and again forgive me, but
things like body temperature. We have the picture of the
perpetrator and by now nobody in the area can identify
this person. Do you believe and I wanted to ask
this question, do you believe that anyone is covering up
for someone in Locally, it would be assumed that somebody
(36:10):
knows who this is and for whatever reason, they haven't
come forward yet. A mother, a sister, a family member.
Maybe they haven't though maybe they really just don't know.
But you get that feeling that somebody you don't have
reason to think someone's covering up for the part, but
that they really don't know. And I'm asking you ideal
with faction data. That's kind of guy. I'm an engineer,
and I mean, could he be? Yeah, we can talk
(36:30):
theories and any people in Delhi three thousand, Okay, so
is he there? Could be? I don't see how I
really did not find it in a town of three
thousand that nobody knows this man. Well, that's just it.
We aren't a big I mean there's probably ten thousand
people in our whole county maybe town. In no way.
(36:52):
I mean, this is very accurate in detail. I know
I had to jump in. So one of the other
things to keep in mind, or what amazing girls you raised.
One of them took the picture as that that person
walking and Nancy. The point I would make with that
is trust your gut. I have no doubt she never
would have taken a picture of him approaching if they
(37:14):
knew him, Why would they take a picture of a clandestine,
you know, person walking towards them. So I, in my mind,
this is someone they did not know from the community.
Is brilliant, you know what. It leads me to think
that he had done something other than I passed all
of you guys in the hall. I didn't say, oh,
take a picture. They he had to do something agree
(37:35):
to make them go, oh, we're gonna take his pictures.
Let's see who has an idea that can help us. Yes,
they breathe put it in a nutshell. Hi, thank you.
I'd like to know if they've given you any profile
of this killer, and if they have, what would be
the profile. I haven't received a profile other than like
(37:57):
the estimated weight, height, size, um. As far as an
actual person itself. Uh no, I think there's what the
investigators leading on the fact that we do have some
good heart evidence. We like you said, we got a picture,
we got a sketch, you know, we got a voice.
I still say, somebody out there knows, and that person
may not know about this case. I mean they know
(38:18):
the guy. This guy lives beside somebody, somebody's friends, somebody's coworker.
We just need to reach that person and through you know,
through something like this, people helped spread it out. Eventually
we'll get to that right person who has the wherewithal
to make that call. I have the police looked at
their internet, their iPads, their cell phones, everything. One of
the first things they did was gather all of our stuff,
(38:39):
our phones, the tablets, the passwords. We actually had to
go and file for estates on the girls to get
Apple and Google to release those things. That was one
of the first things they saw in including with the
snapchat photo that Libby took a b abbey. There is
no evidence whatsoever that they were intending on meeting anybody
that day that as far as we know, they have
(39:01):
not found anything. And that's so they said, we weren't.
They weren't planning on many anybody. They didn't even really
tell anybody they were going. So this wasn't a I
know the girls are gonna be out there and we're
coming out to investigate, and it would be one of
the first avenues. John David asked all the time, can
he have like group chats? I'm like, unless it's somebody
at school that you know no, because you're probably talking
(39:21):
to some sixty five year old guy in New Jersey
and his underwear and you don't want that, and he's
pretending he's eight, okay, and he's playing Minecraft or whatever
with you. Everybody, we are here at crime con and
we have with us the family of Liberty and Abby
who lost their lives at the bridge in Delphi. We
(39:42):
have a live studio audience and we are looking for
clues if there is DNA, for example, if there was
some kind of encounter. If there's DNA under the fingernails,
it tells me that maybe this might be a person
that's never been in trouble. I find that very hard
to believe with his age. I don't just jump up
(40:02):
at age forty something and kill two little girls. But
Nancy with no d N A, I mean it has
I guess you on the DNA because I don't know
that there's DNA and they don't know because nobody's saying
so I can't follow that it's natural route. But so
I'm backing up. Remember when we tried cases without d NA, Think, think, think,
(40:25):
and this is how we did it. So do you
guys know if they have gone to a drifter didn't
just walk there from forty five miles away. Other places
have surveillance video, not that bridge. But do we know
if that has been gathered from as she said, gas station's,
truck stops, restaurants. Yes, it has been. It has been.
(40:47):
But it's a great idea, you're right. I mean that's
what we're here for. You know, if there's something that
we haven't done, we definitely want to know about it.
And Nancy, can I just say think about this. It
doesn't mean that he hasn't done something in the past.
He has. Likely he's a predator. What it means is
he's never been caught. So people need to look at
is this somebody, Oh we have a relative, they'd never
do that. Every criminal out there. I think he's thinking
(41:08):
they did it. I'm telling you right, he has something
he hasn't arrest somewhere. Yeah. One of the things I
was warning, do they have any evidence of primitive camping
around there at all? I mean, do people commonly primitive camp?
There is there evidence in there that you know, you've
got you've got people that primitive camp in that particular area,
and they would go unnoticed. Uh, you know, so is
(41:30):
there evidence of any campground at all, primitive camping where
there's just random fires that have been set and that
sort of thing. Um, not that I came across. I
actually did a grid search out there shortly after this
all happened. I couldn't just sit idle Um cleared up
with the FBI and the police and said, hey, I
got some buddies and got about a dozen of us
and kind of gritted the whole area out and did
(41:51):
a search looking for stuff because you know what, I'm thinking,
he's eating things like beanie wheenies or whatever it is
that he's eating. May be a tarp maybe. Uh. You
know how when you can drive by the bridge and
you see blankets, it may be something that rudimentary. Um,
I'm just wondering if another search of the area for
that very thing, because it took a while to find them,
(42:16):
How do I know that there's not something out there
like a tarp, like a sleeping bag, like a blanket,
like anything. Uh, A can that might have a fingerprint
on it. Where he was? Do you look at his clothes?
Did he just show up that day or had he
been there? He's got on several layers, right, yeah, absolutely,
that's what hides a lot of his features as well.
(42:38):
But you know, did you did you arrive on a
motorcycle uncannily warm, overly dressed? In my opinion, these are
questions that we have that we don't have as the motorcycle.
Is there an area like a surveillance area, like a
truck stop or something like that that we can look for, Oh,
we don't have. We're not big enough our truck stop.
(42:59):
We have what we call gas station. You know. I'm
also wondering about his clothing, like, for instance, specifically that
hat in the jacket, what kind it is, where it
could be purchased. I mean, you can identify a trash
bag from the lot, the manufacturer, the store, where where
it was purchased. What about that? That's gonna meet some
(43:21):
serious FBI work on that. Absolutely. And that's that's the
the picture that was taken from the video off of
Libby's phone. It's we tried to clear it up, and
I've been told that they've sent it to several different places,
you know, NASA, Disney, all kinds of places, But it
comes down to pixelation, and there's only you know, you
can only polish it so much. Now you don't want
(43:42):
to change or altar that because that begins to mess
with the integrity again the information for the investigation. You
can't go in there and change it around saying Okay,
I bet he noses this big, I bet his lips
are that big. Well, then you're making it look like
somebody defense attorney's gonna come in and that of the
clothing and go take it to a location. And if
he is on a motorcycle or has a car, for instance,
(44:05):
that makes him more substantial. That means he's got an
apartment or a home as a whole different line of investigation,
as opposed to a drifter that might have been eating
out of a canatuna pop talk somewhere in those woods,
which is a whole another line of investigation. To research
the area, I mean, I don't mean research look it
up the line, I mean walk it. No, I understand, yeah,
(44:27):
and that trust me, that area has been walked very well.
I spent two weeks out there doing it myself, as
well as a bunch of other people. And also that
most of this is all private property. It's very very
reviewed by these people. You don't go on there, you'll
get arrested. But what were they looking for when you
were searching any anything and everything out of the ordinary
was the direction that I give him. I said, anything
that looks out of place, if it's not a stick
(44:47):
or twig or something suggestion, And we did. I'm not
saying there's not something there. I mean, I'm not perfect,
but I did a pretty thorough search. Thank you for
being here. My name is Lynn King. I'm a private
investigator out of Atlanta, what we also called Nancy Grace
land Um. Anyway, but now I just wanted to say that,
(45:08):
you know, obviously, you know I've heard lots of coverage
on this. Just you know, I think you've kind of
already answered my question. I wanted to find out where
was the nearest like truck stop because I just don't
I just don't feel like this was a drifter. I
don't feel like it's somebody that was camped out there.
This I just felt like he was a crime of opportunity.
(45:28):
But I feel like he was prepared to do a crime.
And look at his physique. He had not missed a meal.
This is not some homeless person that doesn't have anything
to eat, that's shuffling for just money for food, this
guy is eating on a regular basis. So to answer
(45:50):
your question, about fifteen mile away to the north is
the nearest truck stop. Obviously we have gas station somewhere. Yeah.
I don't get the feeling he's local, but I feel
like he was prepared that day to carry out a crime.
I feel like he's already been in that area, so
he already knew how remote it was. And also just
(46:12):
you know, when it comes to cases like the way,
that's another thought. Listen, when you have predators walking along
a track, they're not there to exercise. She's right, he
was there. It was either a crime of opportunity where
he wanted to rob somebody of get money and he
saw the girls and his motive changed. But he was
there to do a felony, which also narrows down who
(46:38):
we're looking for. We're looking for a guy that I
think has a record. It could be for something petty
like um peeping tom or snatching, grab breaking in a car, something.
Because he didn't start at age forty plus. This is
not a homeless guy because he's well fed, his clothes
(46:58):
are decent, so and he's there to commit a felony
and he's not local. That's a lot of information. Has
anybody looked through the school district. I'm a teacher. If
this is an opportunity and he's been there to walk
the trails before, maybe he knew that the kids were
out of school that day. I'm not saying that he
watched your daughters one granddaughter. What I'm saying is, have
(47:21):
you checked through the school website where there are multiple
hits to look at your school calendar to see if
this guy knew that the school was going to be
out that day. That's good, that's a good point. I'll
take that one. There were people that looked that assumed
that well it had to been public knowledge that the
kids didn't have school that day. Well, yeah, if you
lived in the school district. But I don't go into
the Tennessee website and say, oh, well look at the
(47:43):
what school isn't going to be in school in session
in spring break? But I know you wouldn't but a
predator either. You're you are correct, guys. I know this
is totally politically incorrect. But before we close our podcast,
our serious radio show, m I want you to join
me and pray for an answer for them. Father, help
(48:06):
these families seek justice and lead us to help them
in any way we can amen with me right now,
the families of Abbey Williams and Libby Liberty German, help
us find them, help us find their killers. It's so
(48:30):
hard for me to even say their killers. When I
look at their pictures and I'll look at you, they
see so alive, and when you talk about their art
supplies and the time you saw them. The tip line
is eight four four four or five nine, five, seven,
eight six. The website is Abbey A B. B Y
and Libby l I B b Y dot org Abbey
(48:53):
and Libby dot org. There is a two hundred and
forty thousand dollar reward. These girls were brutally murdered and
their killer is walking free, and we will not forget
and we will not rest until he has been brought
to justice. Tip line eight four four four, five, nine,
(49:14):
five seven eight six eight four four four, five, nine, five,
seven eight six. Nancy Grace Crime Stories signing off, good
Bye fight
Host
Nancy Grace
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