August 4, 2023 • 43 mins
An Alabama mom, missing for months, is found dead in Little River Canyon National Preserve.
Mary Elizabeth Isbell, who also went by Beth Wright, hadn’t been seen since October 2021. Her ex-husband reported Isbell as missing after she didn’t call their son at Christmas. A tip led police to the body and a suspect.
Two women have been charged in this case.
Joining Nancy Grace Today:
- James Shelnutt – Attorney – The Shelnutt Law Firm, P.C.; 27-year Atlanta Metro Area Major Case Detective and Former S.W.A.T. Officer; Twitter: @ShelnuttLawFirm
- Dr. Bethany Marshall – Psychoanalyst (Beverly Hills, CA); New Netflix show: ‘Bling Empire’ (Beverly Hills); Twitter: @DrBethanyLive
- Christopher Byers – Former Police Chief Johns Creek Georgia, 25 years as Police Officer, now Private Investigator and Polygraph Examiner with Lancaster Information Services in Atlanta
- Dr. Michelle DuPre – Forensic Pathologist, Medical Examiner and Detective: Lexington County Sheriff’s Department; Author: “Homicide Investigation Field Guide” & “Investigating Child Abuse Field Guide;” Forensic Consultant
- Savannah Sapp- Multimedia Journalist and Reporter for WAFF48 in Alabama; Twitter: @Savannah Sapp, Instagram: @savannahsapp.tv, Facebook:SavannahSappWAFF48
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
A gorgeous young mom suddenly goes missing or did she?
I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for
being with us here at Phoccination and Serious exem one eleven.
First of all, take a listen to our friends at
wa Ay.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
Mother is desperately searching for her daughter Tonight, gone without
a trace. She explains the last time anyone saw Mary
Isabel and her worst fears about where she might be.
Debbie Wood is heartbroken, to say the least. Her daughter,
Mary Elizabeth Isbel has been missing since November twenty third.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Part of me wants to believe she's still here.
Speaker 4 (00:58):
The part says, I'm ready for a funeral.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Can you even imagine that? As a mother? You think
all your love, all your time, all your energy, all
your money, your hard work literally blood, sweat and tears
into raising your child, and then suddenly you don't know
if they're dead or alive where they are. Seemingly, this
(01:23):
girl Mary Isbel vanishes into thin air, not a trace
left behind. That's really rare in our world. First, I'm
gonna go straight out to James shell Nutt, high profile
lawyer joining us from the shell Nut Firm twenty seven
(01:44):
years in Metro, major case and SWAT and you can
find them at shell Nut Law Firm dot com. When
I say that's really odd, because we all leave some
sort of a trace, I mean, if you looked at
my NAV on my minivan, you'd see the triangle home school,
grocery store, church, home school, grocery church are just over
(02:09):
and over and over again. That leaves a trace, that
leaves a trail. Cell phones, social media, you name it.
We leave traces as to where we've been, what we're doing.
But seemingly Mary i Isspel just vanished and the mom
has no idea where her daughter is. Can you even
(02:30):
imagine that?
Speaker 4 (02:31):
No?
Speaker 5 (02:31):
And you're right, I mean, normally there is some evidence.
You can find something somewhere. You know, a lot of
times there actually is a piece of evidence in some trace,
but it just takes a while for law enforcement to
locate that.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Yeah, yeah, it takes a minute. I'm looking at a
shot of Maryspel right right now, and I got to
tell you she looks like a beauty queen. I mean, big,
beautiful smile, perfect teeth, perfect smile, the long blonde hair,
great figure. Joining me right now is Savannah Sap, multimedia
(03:07):
journalist reporter WAFF forty eight. Savannah, thanks for being with us.
I mean she looks like the Homecoming Queen and Miss
Sweet Potato wrapped all together in one. What do we
know about Mary iskeel Well, one.
Speaker 6 (03:22):
Thing is for sure that she is a loving mother
and a loving sister. Mary issell Right had three older sisters,
I believe, and once she was reported missing. From what
I've seen on social media, it is amazing how they
jumped in together to find her. But she was family
(03:45):
oriented and like you said, Nancy, beautiful woman and a
loving mother as.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Well, loving mother to a young son. Doctor Bethany Marshall
joining me Renow psycho analyst joining us out of Beverly
Hills at doctor Bethany Marshall dot com. Doctor Bethany, thanks
for being with us. Then not knowing the not knowing
what happened, that is tortuous. And I got to tell
you something, doctor Bethany. I didn't like what I knew
(04:12):
about what happened to my fiancee, Keith, who was murdered.
But I knew, I knew that he was dead. I
didn't go to sleep every night wondering can I help him.
Can I find him? Will he be found?
Speaker 7 (04:27):
Well?
Speaker 2 (04:28):
Is he suffering? What is happening to him? Is there
any way I can save him? The not knowing has
got to be excruciating.
Speaker 8 (04:40):
Nanthy, you heard me say this over and over again.
In the space of the unknown, we read our worst
possible fears, and there's an evolutionary basis for that. When
we were developing sort of millennia ago, when we didn't
know where the predator was, we had less of a
chance of survival. So now in our modern day world old,
(05:00):
when we don't know what happened, we become more anxious.
Now have you heard families when they have a lost
loved one say, I just want them to bring my
daughter home. It's dead or alive, I just want her home.
And you think it's so interesting. It's less. I mean,
obviously they want their loved one to be alive, but
(05:21):
primarily they want to know what happened to that person.
If you've said the imaginations run, and I think with
everything we know about crime and all the stories that
you expose, the worst possible fear is that person is
being tortured and kidnapped and held somewhere and then there's
(05:43):
the thought that every second, every second that ticks by,
is a precious second.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Doctor Bethany, I think I've ever told you this, but
for a long time after my fiancee Keith was murdered,
the dreams are not necessarily about his death. The dreams
were about him still being alive and me trying to
find him. That in the dream, I would know something
horrible was happening, but he was still alive. For instance,
(06:14):
I would find out, let's just pretend he was at
forty three New York City Avenue, and I would be looking.
Of course, it would always be at night, and there
would meet the street lights, and I'd be trudging along
this show of the road and there'd be forty one,
forty two, forty four, and I would look. I go
(06:37):
back to try to find forty three, and I could
never find. I could hear his voice, and I could
hear music, or I could hear conversation and laughter, and
I'd be trying to find it. And then I'd wake up,
thinking he's still alive, jump out of the bed literally
and start running toward the door to try to help.
And then it would hit me, wait, wait, he's I
(07:01):
can't help him. There's nothing I can do so that
not knowing whether this woman, this gorgeous mom, Mary Elizabeth
ispell Wright, is dead or alive, I can't even imagine
that much less for the sun she has a boy.
Speaker 8 (07:19):
Well, Nancy, you are having trauma dreams, and I'm sure
this mother is having nightmares of her own. And you
and I have talked about this so many times that
in the face of the unknown, we read our worst
possible fears. It's almost better to know if the person's
dead or alive than to not know at all. Because
(07:40):
if we don't know what's happened to the lost loved one,
we imagine them being held. We imagine them being tortured.
We imagine minutes and seconds just ticking by and us
standing by helpless. So many families say I just want
my bring my child home. I hope they bring him
(08:01):
home or her home, And what they really mean is
dead or alive. They want to know what happened. We
have a need to know. Ante there's a strong evolutionary
biological basis for this. Our ancestors had a better chance
of survival if they knew where the danger was coming
from and they could get away from it. But if
they didn't know, their chances of a survival lowered. And
(08:23):
I think it's the same with these lost person cases
that when we know there's a better chance of survival
for the victim.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
Guys, the search is on for this woman, her mom
desperately wanting answers. Take a listen to our friend Nikael
Williams Waay a police ay.
Speaker 3 (08:42):
They first received reports of isbel being gone in January.
Speaker 4 (08:47):
Now I can't find her.
Speaker 9 (08:49):
Typically, you know, we don't have adults go missing this
long or make contact with a family member within two
or three months.
Speaker 10 (08:57):
So this is a this is abnormal.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
You know, it's super irritating and sometimes devastating to a
missing person case. Have you ever noticed Chris Buyers Christopher Byers,
former police chief John's Creek, twenty five years in Elle
law enforcement, now private investigator and polygrapher with Lancaster Information Services. Chris,
(09:22):
thank you for being with us when an adult goes missing,
and I've seen it happen with juveniles as well. When
cop say no offense, Ah, she'll turn up. She's just
off with her new boyfriend. Well guess what. Typically there's
not a new boyfriend. And I will never forget when
that was said about Stacy Peterson, a mom of I
(09:45):
think three who just vanished. Of course, you got to
consider the source in that one, Chris. That was Drew Peterson,
her cop husband, saying, oh, she just ran off with
her lover. They're having an a there, you know, trying
to drag her through the well. She's dead. Her body
has never been found. He just got convicted for the
(10:07):
murder of his third wife, Kathleen Savio. Meanwhile, Stacy Peterson
body still missing. But I can tell you that she
did not run off with a sex interest. There was
no book lover, there was no boyfriend. Drew Peterson killed her.
And that is one example of the theory she ran
(10:28):
off with Phil in the blank, It's not true. And
I'm just wondering how much that played into the missing
person's report of Mary Elizabeth Espell.
Speaker 11 (10:40):
Yeah, definitely. It's one of the things that I am
very critical of my fellow officers and my profession and
as a public information officer for about twelve years. It's
it just seems to be that within law enforcement there
is this there is this tendency to downplay these missing
(11:04):
person cases on adults. It's definitely a pitfall that law
enforcement needs to be aware of. But yes, I agree
with you. It is a trend that I see all
too often throughout my career, and it is extremely frustrating.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
And you lose such valuable time while the missing person
is quote off with a new boyfriend. I don't like it,
especially when you have a child involved. I mean, there
is no way. Just let me put it on the record.
I would ever willingly, no way in h e double
(11:37):
al willingly leave my twins. Ever, no matter what, I
don't need me time. I don't need to go sit
in a mud bath somewhere. I don't need those hot
rocks put on my back. I don't need a girl's weekend,
don't I don't need to go check in to some
hotel and read and watch movies. I'm fine leave. That's
(12:00):
how most mothers feel regarding they may need some time out,
but leaving your children yet, that's not gonna happen.
Speaker 8 (12:09):
So, Nancy, if I should jump in that, but I stop.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
You could I stop? You Go ahead, guys, you're hearing
doctor Bethany.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
Marshall Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
Doctor Michelle dupre Is with us. Who is uncharacteristically quiet.
Right now, She's shot to the front of public consciousness
during the Alexan Murdoch double murder trial. Doctor Dupre forensic pathologist,
medical examiner, former detective, and author of literally wrote the
book Homicide Investigation Field Guy Dodtor Dupre jump in. Okay,
(12:59):
doctor Bethany, Well.
Speaker 8 (13:00):
Well, if some mothers going to abandon a child, which
is very rare, chances are she abandoned the child from birds,
or she has a history of not being bonded.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
Oh, you mean like a cat. How they have a
litter out under the deck off the back of the
house and then they just disappear and you find the
cats and have to take care of them. That yeah, okay,
what do you call that? I'm sure you have a
very fancy psychoanalyst term for acting like a cat.
Speaker 8 (13:30):
Well, it's pretty simple. We say lack of maternal bonding.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
I like acting like a cat better. But you know,
you say tomato, I say tomato. So here there was
not that at all, no lack of bonding with the sun. So, guys,
how did the whole thing go down? When do we
realize that Mary Spell is missing? Take a listen to
Nick Brown, Chief investigator out of Alabama.
Speaker 9 (13:57):
Mary was reported missing by her ex host to Heartsell
Police Department, and that was December twenty seventh of They
started working the case and they determined through phone records
that Mary was living in our area into Cab County
at the time, on Lookout Mountain and we picked up
(14:22):
the case. I received the phone call from one of
the lead investigators at HERTZLL.
Speaker 3 (14:26):
What says she stopped by the house that day but.
Speaker 4 (14:29):
Call my husband Dannie at work, and they left Haunsell
and headed home. He called the police because we really
didn't know at the time who it was. And by
the tom he got there, the place was gone, but
they were up the road and no more SIGNABAA.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
So let me understand what happened. First of all, we
know that this is Lookout Mountain area in Alabama to
Cab County, Alabama. Savannah South is with us WAF forty eight.
Tell me about the area, let's just start with that.
Speaker 11 (15:03):
Well, see, the.
Speaker 6 (15:04):
Area of the Cab County is filled with beautiful mountains,
but it's pretty much for the most part rural. You
have areas like Fort Payne, Hnegar. You know, all of
the surrounding areas including Lookout Mountain are pretty quiet, pretty serene.
And it's interesting to note that Mary Elizabeth Ifel was
(15:29):
reported mentalingly in Hertzell, but was found to be living
into Cab County, which is about I would say, around
two hours east of Hartzell. So it was kind of
jarring for all of us to learn that she was
in the Cab County or supposedly into Cab County this
(15:50):
entire time, or was living there for a short period
of time.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
Where in Alabama is Decab County and Lookout Mountain? Where
is that? Exactly?
Speaker 6 (15:59):
If you're looking at Huntsville, the Tennessee Valley area Fort
Pain in the Cabb County is going to be the
northeastern side of Alabama, right under the Tennessee state line.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
Now in Lookout Mountain. The Lookout Mountain area in Alabama
population is about two thousand, very similar to where I
grew up in rural Bibb County in Georgia. And I
can tell you about this area specifically. I've been there
many many times because in Huntsville, not that far away,
there is a huge Scout center, a National Boy Scout Center,
(16:37):
I believe, isn't it James shell Nutt joining us. Isn't
there also a NASA structure there as well, a NASA center.
Speaker 5 (16:46):
Yeah, there's a NASA center in the Huntsville and not
in Little River Canyon.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
So she said that she mentioned the Huntsville area. It's very,
very mountainous and every road is very circuitous, hard to
really get anywhere, and that adds to the difficulty of
the search in this case. So where is Elizabeth Beth
(17:15):
is spelled seemingly vanishing into thin air? Take a listen
again to Nick Brown. Chief investigator Parsel.
Speaker 9 (17:24):
PD had began working at They put her into Cab
County by phone records.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
Through those phone records.
Speaker 9 (17:28):
We determined some of the people that she was speaking
with at the time of her disappearance. We were pretty
sure that it happened between October and November of twenty
twenty one.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
Through those phone.
Speaker 9 (17:37):
Records, whe we were able to track down a few
people and talk to them and determine where she was leaving.
We recovered physical evidence from her home that showed signs
of a struggle, and we knew that at that time
that it was a crime scene.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
Wow, that progressed pretty quickly, So they did all this.
The investigators here, who are keeping everything very close to
the best, they find where she was living through phone records.
They then analyze the phone records and determine to whom
(18:09):
she is speaking the most. They that's how they find
her friends, people she's talking to all the time. And
isn't this right? James shell Nutt, high profile lawyer joining
us out of this jurisdiction. You can also ping the phone.
You can determine how long conversations last, but you look
(18:33):
for recurring numbers, who the individual is speaking with the most,
how often those calls were made. But you have to
go through a subpoena. The phone company is not the
friend of police or prosecutors. You have to go through
a jump a lot of hurdles to get these phone records.
And then what do you do with those phone records
(18:54):
and the information you get from them.
Speaker 5 (18:56):
Well, you're Arm's saying correct, they're not the friend of
law enforcement. A lot of the time do have to
force them to turn that information over. Of course, there's
a lot of privacy laws, but once you get those
phone records, you know, you essentially develop what's more or
less a spreadsheet and determine how often like you said,
they've called these people, what type of contact they've had,
how frequent it is, And that's so important because you know,
(19:18):
in a missing person's case or some other type of
case like that, where you're looking for someone, you want
to start with the people closest to them and speak
with those people first, the people who they've had the
most recent contact with, that they've had the most contact with,
including family and friends, and then work your way further
out of that circle.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
Yeah. So often we say, what's taking so long? Well,
this is what's taking so long. Somebody vanishes into thin
air and you have to subpoena their phone documents and
then start structuring what was happening around the last time
they were seeing. Now we know that the mother goes
(19:56):
to where her daughter's living, nobody there. She calls police,
but the woman beth Elizabeth isbel is first reported by
her exported missing and frankly, doctor Bethany Marshall, when you
have someone report the individual missing, that tends to indicate
(20:19):
they didn't have anything to do with it.
Speaker 8 (20:20):
Oh, Nancy, you're absolutely right. But occasionally there's the husband
or the boyfriend who once they find out their partner's missing,
and they failed to report. They're the ones that go
out and hand out the flyers, walk around the neighborhood crying,
they go on air and say, oh, I'm trying to
find I'm trying to find Mary or Elizabeth or whoever.
And they're the ones who did it. So if it's
(20:42):
the perpetrator, they tend to jump in after the fact
in a very dramatic way. If it's somebody who's really
in a sense it has nothing to do with the crime,
they are the first ones to go forward, and they're
usually the first ones to notice because in this case,
this was her former husband. This was the father of
(21:03):
that teenager whose mother didn't call on Christmas on his birthday,
and they said she always called during very important holidays
and seasons, and she was remarkably absent during those important times.
So they've felt the absence there that says, but this
(21:24):
man is not the perpetrator, clearly, And.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
Of course talked to Michelle Daprie. You've seen a lot
of dead bodies, going to many mini homicide scenes and
conducting literally thousands of autopsies. And this is not based
on statistics, this is anecdotal. I often see the husband
of the boyfriend calling when they quote find the body,
(21:50):
not when the person is missing and nobody's found the
body yet, but when they find the body. Let's just
talk about Murdoch again. He's the one that called nine
one one when he quote found Maggie and his son
Paul dead. Of course he killed them. But when they
find the body, or ostensibly find the body, they call
(22:10):
when the person is just missing. I don't see those
calls coming from the love interest as much.
Speaker 10 (22:16):
Nancy. I think you're absolutely right. And you know, anytime
there is a suspicion of foul play, the husband or
the wife or the boyfriend or girlfriend is always one
of the first suspects, and whoever finds that person is
always one of the first suspects as well, because that's
the way to keep themselves involved in the investigation and
try to throw off law enforcement.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
Big red flag. When they get to Elizabeth's home, they
find signs of a struggle. Listen to our friends at WHNT.
Speaker 12 (22:48):
Investigators gave us a good bit of insight today into
how they got to this point in the case. It's brutal, yes,
a lot of evil from the beginning. Chief and to
Gator Nick Brown, says they felt something was wrong in
the missing person's case of Mary Elizabeth is Boll.
Speaker 9 (23:06):
We recovered physical evidence from her home that showed signs
that they struggle, and a we knew that at that
time that it was a crime scene.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
Wow, you know it's a crime scene. You find signs
of a struggle. But what did they find? Take a
listen to our friend Nikel Williams.
Speaker 4 (23:23):
And you thuck had to get her body back.
Speaker 2 (23:27):
I'd rather he were love. But my feory is she's
not seen anymore.
Speaker 3 (23:34):
A Debbie Wood says, police chants out to see cab County.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
Where is the lid?
Speaker 3 (23:39):
They found her driver's license and her social Security card,
but not her If you know anything about where she
might be called authorities.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
So where are you going to go in life as
an adult without your driver's license or your social Security card?
That's what they found, leading them to believe she went
nowhere willingly. Plus they say they found evidence of a crime.
So about asaf joining us WAFF forty eight, do we
know what suggested a crime had been committed? What did
(24:10):
they find in her own well?
Speaker 6 (24:11):
Yancy and my understanding this from the times that I've
spoken to investigators. They investigated her residence where she was
said to have been living at the time, and as
well as the vehicle she was driving. You know, they
described that they had found physical evidence. They would never,
you know, disclose what that physical evidence was, but they
(24:33):
did enter it into a database, came up with the matches.
But from what investigators saw at her residence and in
her vehicle, there were signs of a struggle. Quoting she's
investigator Nick.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
Brown, signs of a struggle. But then as we were
talking earlier about the ex husband, the father of the
teen boy reporting Elizabeth missing, then all eyes began to
focus on the new boyfriend. Take a listen to our
friends at w AAY thirty one.
Speaker 3 (25:08):
Her mother says she was in a new but troubled relationship.
Speaker 4 (25:12):
They were always fighting and then it's like poof, he's gone.
Don't know where he's at. I finally get to talk
to him and he said, hey, I know she's missing.
Speaker 6 (25:25):
Now.
Speaker 3 (25:25):
Her only wish is that someone who knows anything will
just come forward.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
A name of girl. Okay, that's not good when your
boyfriend disappears right after you disappear. How many times Christopher
Byer's former police chief, John's Creek. Have we seen that
happen the boyfriend just disappears?
Speaker 11 (25:48):
Oh yeah, absolutely, it happens more time than that, And
even the FBI would call that a clue that you
need to start to circle in.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
Even the FBI, I would call that a clue.
Speaker 11 (26:01):
So yeah, it's time to start looking hard at him.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
But then, amazingly, he takes the call from Mary, Elizabeth
Espell's mother and tell sir what she's missing. Okay, I
don't believe that either. How could he not know the
girlfriend is missing? But he did take the call, so
he is reachable. But then out of the blue, a
(26:28):
turn and the case listen to Emily Forrester, wh and T.
Speaker 12 (26:34):
For a year and a half, they tracked down leads,
but nothing came to Fruition investigators said they got a
new credible tip last Tuesday that matched some of their
early findings.
Speaker 9 (26:45):
The tip that came in was some of the names
I was looking at at that time, So that kind
of re sparked a interest in those certain people.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
Well, right there, that tells me that the tip that
they get a year over a year after or Elizabeth
Estpell goes missing matches up. He says, people that they
were looking at earlier. Does that mean somebody on that
call list from her cell phone? Okay, take a listen
(27:13):
again to w H and T.
Speaker 9 (27:14):
Once was very cooperative and helped us and to lead
to Mary's remains where we recovered them Wednesday. They were
actually confirmed today to be Mary Elizabeth and it's no
better day than on her birthday.
Speaker 12 (27:29):
Brown says. It appears Isabel died from being thrown off
a cliff in Little River Canyon National Park.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
Thrown off a cliff. Beth ispell is not missing. She's dead.
Thrown off a cliff, you know Dr Bethany Marshall's taco
Ally side of Beverly Hills. I've seen a lot of homicide,
but it takes a certain let me just say, mindset
(27:58):
to push somebody off a nity.
Speaker 8 (28:01):
This is so cool and heinous. I can't even find
the words like, I'm just imagining whoever the perpetrator or
perpetrators are uh apprehending this poor woman, kidnapping her, clutching her,
picking her up, throwing her off the cliff. The rage
(28:23):
that went into this. You know, we cover homicides where
there are you know, multiple stabbings, where there are you
know where women are are raped, choked, beaten, but thrown
off a cliff takes a unique type of rage towards
the victim exactly.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
Nancy, Wait, who is this Michelle Duprey?
Speaker 11 (28:44):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (28:44):
Can you imagine her last moments?
Speaker 10 (28:48):
I cannot. And this is something very personal, mancy. You
have to touch that person, and you know, you have
to know that you are up close and personal. It's
not like shooting a gun from a distance. This was
very parsonal to push or shove someone off a cliff.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
I wonder if she was lured there, if she was
forced there, How does she get to the top of
a cliff to be shoved off? And how do we
know she didn't slip at fall? Guys, now take a
listen to this.
Speaker 12 (29:16):
Investigators made the first arrest in the case Sunday and
announced the second suspect Friday.
Speaker 9 (29:21):
One of the co defendants was very cooperative and helped
us and to lead to Mary's remains where we recovered
them Wednesday.
Speaker 12 (29:28):
Several factors led them to charge the suspects with capital murder.
Speaker 9 (29:32):
This case meets the criteria not only by kidnapping, but
by multiple other statutes that bring in the capitol so
It's very unhuman, very human and brutal. What these ladies
done to Mary.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
What these ladies, What these ladies did to Mary. Ladies,
listen to our friends wh and t.
Speaker 12 (30:03):
A mother and daughter now facing capital murder charges and
the death of a woman investigators believe was pushed off
a cliff. The Dacab County Sheriff's Office says Mary Elizabeth
Ibol has been missing since late twenty twenty one. Her
remains were found two days ago in Little River Canyon
National Park and identified today on what would have been
her thirty ninth birthday. Two women are charged with capital
(30:26):
murder in her death, now, Loretta Carr and Carr's daughter,
jesse Eden Kelly.
Speaker 9 (30:30):
They are all acquaintances, mainly to a boyfriend, so I
can't give too much details on that right now, but
they all do come back to one specific person.
Speaker 13 (30:41):
Okay, crime stories with Nancy Grace, Please tell me, Savannah
(31:02):
sap w Aff forty eight.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
That these two women, a mother and a daughter, did
not push Elizabeth Ispell off a cliff over a man.
Speaker 6 (31:20):
According to River investigators, Nancy, they did. And it's interesting
to me that you know one of the descendants is
basically being very very cooperative with investigators, while the other
is filing emotions in court saying there's not enough, there's
not enough evidence to charge her. It's very interesting, you
(31:45):
know that there's kind of two sides of this. They're
both kind of petered against each other.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
So you've got one ratting out the other, and the
two co defendants are mother and daughter. I mean, I've
seen a lot to murder this gorgeous young mom by
throwing her off a cliff over a man. No offense
to the men on the panel right now, but I
(32:12):
remember my grandmother on my father's side would say they're
all alike, you know, they just look different. Plus I
knew it will come along every fifteen minutes like a bus.
So they commit murder in a heinous fashion over a man.
Now the man has not been named yet by authorities.
(32:37):
But I'm looking at a photo right now posted by
the Elder car the mother, Loretta Ray Carr, aged forty three,
posing at a national preserve with her then fiance Robert Mitcham.
Not the actor. He appears to be much younger than her,
(32:59):
and he has blue hair. Now, is this the guy
that they were fighting about that they throw a young
mother off a cliff over him. Is he the one?
We don't know yet? But I'm looking at this photo
of the mom car with this young guy, big smile,
(33:20):
and there, interestingly at a national preserve. Then I'm looking
at another photo of the mom car wearing the same shirt,
which indicates to me the same day possibly, and lo
and behold Savannah sap is Lorette K Carr posting a
(33:40):
photo to Facebook. She did this to herself. I didn't
go looking for it. It's right there. And she is
at the spot where Elizabeth Eastpel's body was found. Hello,
she's posting a shot of herself. It's a selfie and
you can see this deep, deep cliff behind her, and
(34:02):
she posted it on Facebook. Help me? Is this truth
about us out?
Speaker 6 (34:06):
Yes? This is absolutely true. And when I stumbled across
it doing my own investigative work, I just kind of
had a hit in my stomach because even though these
these thoughts were posted in the year twenty nineteen, about
around two years before it's felt disappearance, it still gives
you an eerie, almost disturbed feeling because it's a selfie,
(34:29):
you know, car living her everyday life with you know,
beautiful canyon behind her. But once you know the story
and you know what what she is eventually accused of,
it leaves a really almost creeped out feeling.
Speaker 2 (34:46):
I got a very creeped out feeling, and I'm looking
at her in this young fiance and it leads me
to think, now, this is just an educated guest. Everybody
on the panel and wants you to jump in. It
leads me to think that Loretta Ray Carr is the
one involved with a man and she enlists her daughter
Jesse Eden Kelly h twenty one to kill They quote
(35:12):
other women. That other woman would be Mary Elizabeth isbel
Wright because we know a mom and daughter duo are
now charged with the murder of this young mom. Take
a listen to Kila Smith WHNT.
Speaker 14 (35:28):
We are still working to get information about how investigators
tied the suspect to the death of the victim, Mary
Elizabeth I isbel Here's what we know from a criminal
criminal complaint filed this week. The document shows Loretta Carr
from Fort Payne is charged with capital murder. Jail records
reveal Carr was booked into the Camp County Jail Sunday night.
(35:48):
Carr is accused of abducting isbel in October of twenty
twenty one.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
What exactly would that do to a body? Doctor dupree
to die by being slung a cliff.
Speaker 10 (36:01):
When you're thrown over a cliff, you're going to have
a lot of blunt force injuries, things like obviously broken bones, fractures,
all sorts of things like that, pretty much all over
your body, of course, depending on how far the drop is.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
I'm just imagining this beautiful young mom being murdered in
this heinous fashion. Guys, we're talking about Mary Elizabeth estpell Wright.
Her mother distraught trying to find her, where's my daughter?
But the reality is her daughter was long dead, her
(36:38):
crumpled and broken body at the bottom of a cliff and,
according to police, pushed over the cliff by a mother
daughter tag team angry that Estbell was dating their love object,
one of their love objects. But it's not the first time,
of course, that this has happened. Take a listen to
hour cut twenty does a name Lisa Noak ring a Bell.
(37:04):
She was with NASA, an astronaut.
Speaker 7 (37:07):
Listen before she drove from Houston to Orlando to intercept me.
She hid her intentions and her whereabouts, I believe for
the weekend.
Speaker 2 (37:14):
From her coworkers.
Speaker 7 (37:16):
She chose to drive one thousand mile distance rather than fly,
which ensured no record of her trip. She covered her
tracks by traveling under a fake name, wearing a disguise,
and making minimal stops and using only cash. She brought
with her a myriad of weapons, which one season detective
had called a murder kit. Lisa Iak told police, but
she planned to use the weapons that she brought with
(37:36):
her to force me to sit with her.
Speaker 2 (37:38):
To sit with her, that's not exactly what Noak had
in mind.
Speaker 7 (37:42):
To listen, she blasted me with what felt like acid.
It burned my eyes, my nose, in my mouth, and
it sucked the air out of me. I don't know
what other weapons she had at the ready, because I
didn't hang around to find out. I stomped on the
gas and I wondered if there was a gun pointed.
Speaker 2 (37:56):
At my head.
Speaker 7 (37:57):
My eyes and throat were on fire, my lungs ached
for I thought the urge to breathe in whatever poison
it was that she had braved me with. I thought
I had just escaped a car jacking, and I was
sure that she had just tried to kill me to
steal my car. I had no idea that a high ranking,
high paid military officer had just attacked me. I believe
I escaped a horrible death that night.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
You're hearing the victim in that case, Colleen Shipman, giving
her victim impact statement about the attack made by her
then boyfriend's former girlfriend. He drives all the way across
the country to attack Colleen, But she's certainly not the
only one. Does the name Caitlin Armstrong ring abel her
(38:37):
victim Mariah Wilson. Take a list our cut twenty three,
Fox seven, Austin.
Speaker 15 (38:42):
Caitlyn Armstrong wanted by the US Marshals for the murder
of cyclist Mariah Wilson. Wilson was visiting from California and
staying with a friend. She was in Austin ahead of
a race in Hiko. Core paper say the night of
the murder, Wilson went for a swim at deep Eddie
Pool with Colin Strickland, another cyclist, Then they went to
Poolberger before Strickland dropped her off at her friend's house.
(39:04):
Documents say Strickland and Armstrong were in a relationship before
briefly ending it for a couple of weeks last year.
At the time he was involved with Wilson.
Speaker 2 (39:12):
So now Mariah Wilson is dead World champ cyclist in
her twenties, her life and in front of her. Of course
she's not the only one. Take a list. Now we're
cut nineteen Fox to Detroit.
Speaker 16 (39:25):
Twenty six year old Chinania Williamson saw her baby's father
in a car with another woman. He also got pregnant again.
The two women, according to authorities, are pregnant at the
same time by the same man.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
Her boyfriend or ex the relationship.
Speaker 16 (39:41):
Status to somewhat unclear, gets out of the vehicle and
is arguing with Williamson, and that's when she allegedly fires
into the other car, hitting the other pregnant woman in
the leg. But we're told that woman is going to
be okay. She drove herself to the hospital.
Speaker 2 (39:56):
You know, Doctor Bethany Marshall and anybody on the panel
please jump in. The first of all, murder, but the
mode of murder, pushing Espell Elizabeth Espell off a cliff
to her death. Did they lure her there? Did they
force her there? I don't know the answer of that.
But over a man number one, A cheating man, apparently
(40:20):
because it seems like it was having a relationship with
two women. It was, But who cares. I'm not the
church lady. I don't care who's sleeping with who, but
not only to do it, but to enlist your daughter
or your mom to commit murder and that person going
along with it. Who are these two minions from hell?
Speaker 8 (40:39):
You? Nancy? When I first read or heard that it
was a mother daughter duo, I thought, this has to
be over a man. It has to be over jealousy
of some sort. And I would imagine this mother daughter
duo had a long history applauding and planning against anybody
(41:00):
who interfered with their feelings of importance in the world.
Wasn't there another case where a girl failed to become
a cheerleader and they went after the coach the mother's
daughter a team did I'm trying to remember that story,
but right that was a well known one made into
a film. But jealousy and envy are the strongest emotions
(41:25):
and often negative emotions that a person can face. They
come from very early in life. They're very infantile, and
most crimes are motivated by jealousy or envy. Envy you
have something, I want someone to take it from you.
That's deft jealousy. Somebody I want is interested in you
(41:45):
rather than me, So I'm just gonna snuff you out.
And the way that this mother daughter duo threw Beth
over the cliff, I mean the terror she felt as
she was falling to her death, and that's selfy that
the perfect trader took. I mean, I want the listeners
to try to look it up and see it go
on the crime online website, because it's not just the selfie.
(42:07):
She has her head cocked back so that what's in
the back of the selfie is the precipitous decline of
the cliffs. You can see where Beth fell to her death.
I mean she's really triumphing over the victim there.
Speaker 2 (42:23):
Who is the man they were fighting about? Don't know?
Were people sleeping around, don't know. But I can tell
you this much. If my husband, David Lynch, cheats, she
can have him. I'll send him to you cod cash
on delivery. You're paying the fright lady. I don't want
him back. I'll find somebody that can be true. So
(42:46):
far there's been no hint of cheating, but I can
tell you this much. Don't commit murder over a man
or a woman. All their lives are altered forever over
what an Alabama woman suspected of pushing a missing mom
(43:08):
off a cliff to her death and enlisting her daughter
as a hench person. We waked as just as unfolds. Goodbye, friend,
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
A gorgeous young mom suddenly goes missing or did she?
I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for
being with us here at Phoccination and Serious exem one eleven.
First of all, take a listen to our friends at
wa Ay.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
Mother is desperately searching for her daughter Tonight, gone without
a trace. She explains the last time anyone saw Mary
Isabel and her worst fears about where she might be.
Debbie Wood is heartbroken, to say the least. Her daughter,
Mary Elizabeth Isbel has been missing since November twenty third.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Part of me wants to believe she's still here.
Speaker 4 (00:58):
The part says, I'm ready for a funeral.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Can you even imagine that? As a mother? You think
all your love, all your time, all your energy, all
your money, your hard work literally blood, sweat and tears
into raising your child, and then suddenly you don't know
if they're dead or alive where they are. Seemingly, this
(01:23):
girl Mary Isbel vanishes into thin air, not a trace
left behind. That's really rare in our world. First, I'm
gonna go straight out to James shell Nutt, high profile
lawyer joining us from the shell Nut Firm twenty seven
(01:44):
years in Metro, major case and SWAT and you can
find them at shell Nut Law Firm dot com. When
I say that's really odd, because we all leave some
sort of a trace, I mean, if you looked at
my NAV on my minivan, you'd see the triangle home school,
grocery store, church, home school, grocery church are just over
(02:09):
and over and over again. That leaves a trace, that
leaves a trail. Cell phones, social media, you name it.
We leave traces as to where we've been, what we're doing.
But seemingly Mary i Isspel just vanished and the mom
has no idea where her daughter is. Can you even
(02:30):
imagine that?
Speaker 4 (02:31):
No?
Speaker 5 (02:31):
And you're right, I mean, normally there is some evidence.
You can find something somewhere. You know, a lot of
times there actually is a piece of evidence in some trace,
but it just takes a while for law enforcement to
locate that.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Yeah, yeah, it takes a minute. I'm looking at a
shot of Maryspel right right now, and I got to
tell you she looks like a beauty queen. I mean, big,
beautiful smile, perfect teeth, perfect smile, the long blonde hair,
great figure. Joining me right now is Savannah Sap, multimedia
(03:07):
journalist reporter WAFF forty eight. Savannah, thanks for being with us.
I mean she looks like the Homecoming Queen and Miss
Sweet Potato wrapped all together in one. What do we
know about Mary iskeel Well, one.
Speaker 6 (03:22):
Thing is for sure that she is a loving mother
and a loving sister. Mary issell Right had three older sisters,
I believe, and once she was reported missing. From what
I've seen on social media, it is amazing how they
jumped in together to find her. But she was family
(03:45):
oriented and like you said, Nancy, beautiful woman and a
loving mother as.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Well, loving mother to a young son. Doctor Bethany Marshall
joining me Renow psycho analyst joining us out of Beverly
Hills at doctor Bethany Marshall dot com. Doctor Bethany, thanks
for being with us. Then not knowing the not knowing
what happened, that is tortuous. And I got to tell
you something, doctor Bethany. I didn't like what I knew
(04:12):
about what happened to my fiancee, Keith, who was murdered.
But I knew, I knew that he was dead. I
didn't go to sleep every night wondering can I help him.
Can I find him? Will he be found?
Speaker 7 (04:27):
Well?
Speaker 2 (04:28):
Is he suffering? What is happening to him? Is there
any way I can save him? The not knowing has
got to be excruciating.
Speaker 8 (04:40):
Nanthy, you heard me say this over and over again.
In the space of the unknown, we read our worst
possible fears, and there's an evolutionary basis for that. When
we were developing sort of millennia ago, when we didn't
know where the predator was, we had less of a
chance of survival. So now in our modern day world old,
(05:00):
when we don't know what happened, we become more anxious.
Now have you heard families when they have a lost
loved one say, I just want them to bring my
daughter home. It's dead or alive, I just want her home.
And you think it's so interesting. It's less. I mean,
obviously they want their loved one to be alive, but
(05:21):
primarily they want to know what happened to that person.
If you've said the imaginations run, and I think with
everything we know about crime and all the stories that
you expose, the worst possible fear is that person is
being tortured and kidnapped and held somewhere and then there's
(05:43):
the thought that every second, every second that ticks by,
is a precious second.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Doctor Bethany, I think I've ever told you this, but
for a long time after my fiancee Keith was murdered,
the dreams are not necessarily about his death. The dreams
were about him still being alive and me trying to
find him. That in the dream, I would know something
horrible was happening, but he was still alive. For instance,
(06:14):
I would find out, let's just pretend he was at
forty three New York City Avenue, and I would be looking.
Of course, it would always be at night, and there
would meet the street lights, and I'd be trudging along
this show of the road and there'd be forty one,
forty two, forty four, and I would look. I go
(06:37):
back to try to find forty three, and I could
never find. I could hear his voice, and I could
hear music, or I could hear conversation and laughter, and
I'd be trying to find it. And then I'd wake up,
thinking he's still alive, jump out of the bed literally
and start running toward the door to try to help.
And then it would hit me, wait, wait, he's I
(07:01):
can't help him. There's nothing I can do so that
not knowing whether this woman, this gorgeous mom, Mary Elizabeth
ispell Wright, is dead or alive, I can't even imagine
that much less for the sun she has a boy.
Speaker 8 (07:19):
Well, Nancy, you are having trauma dreams, and I'm sure
this mother is having nightmares of her own. And you
and I have talked about this so many times that
in the face of the unknown, we read our worst
possible fears. It's almost better to know if the person's
dead or alive than to not know at all. Because
(07:40):
if we don't know what's happened to the lost loved one,
we imagine them being held. We imagine them being tortured.
We imagine minutes and seconds just ticking by and us
standing by helpless. So many families say I just want
my bring my child home. I hope they bring him
(08:01):
home or her home, And what they really mean is
dead or alive. They want to know what happened. We
have a need to know. Ante there's a strong evolutionary
biological basis for this. Our ancestors had a better chance
of survival if they knew where the danger was coming
from and they could get away from it. But if
they didn't know, their chances of a survival lowered. And
(08:23):
I think it's the same with these lost person cases
that when we know there's a better chance of survival
for the victim.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
Guys, the search is on for this woman, her mom
desperately wanting answers. Take a listen to our friend Nikael
Williams Waay a police ay.
Speaker 3 (08:42):
They first received reports of isbel being gone in January.
Speaker 4 (08:47):
Now I can't find her.
Speaker 9 (08:49):
Typically, you know, we don't have adults go missing this
long or make contact with a family member within two
or three months.
Speaker 10 (08:57):
So this is a this is abnormal.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
You know, it's super irritating and sometimes devastating to a
missing person case. Have you ever noticed Chris Buyers Christopher Byers,
former police chief John's Creek, twenty five years in Elle
law enforcement, now private investigator and polygrapher with Lancaster Information Services. Chris,
(09:22):
thank you for being with us when an adult goes missing,
and I've seen it happen with juveniles as well. When
cop say no offense, Ah, she'll turn up. She's just
off with her new boyfriend. Well guess what. Typically there's
not a new boyfriend. And I will never forget when
that was said about Stacy Peterson, a mom of I
(09:45):
think three who just vanished. Of course, you got to
consider the source in that one, Chris. That was Drew Peterson,
her cop husband, saying, oh, she just ran off with
her lover. They're having an a there, you know, trying
to drag her through the well. She's dead. Her body
has never been found. He just got convicted for the
(10:07):
murder of his third wife, Kathleen Savio. Meanwhile, Stacy Peterson
body still missing. But I can tell you that she
did not run off with a sex interest. There was
no book lover, there was no boyfriend. Drew Peterson killed her.
And that is one example of the theory she ran
(10:28):
off with Phil in the blank, It's not true. And
I'm just wondering how much that played into the missing
person's report of Mary Elizabeth Espell.
Speaker 11 (10:40):
Yeah, definitely. It's one of the things that I am
very critical of my fellow officers and my profession and
as a public information officer for about twelve years. It's
it just seems to be that within law enforcement there
is this there is this tendency to downplay these missing
(11:04):
person cases on adults. It's definitely a pitfall that law
enforcement needs to be aware of. But yes, I agree
with you. It is a trend that I see all
too often throughout my career, and it is extremely frustrating.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
And you lose such valuable time while the missing person
is quote off with a new boyfriend. I don't like it,
especially when you have a child involved. I mean, there
is no way. Just let me put it on the record.
I would ever willingly, no way in h e double
(11:37):
al willingly leave my twins. Ever, no matter what, I
don't need me time. I don't need to go sit
in a mud bath somewhere. I don't need those hot
rocks put on my back. I don't need a girl's weekend,
don't I don't need to go check in to some
hotel and read and watch movies. I'm fine leave. That's
(12:00):
how most mothers feel regarding they may need some time out,
but leaving your children yet, that's not gonna happen.
Speaker 8 (12:09):
So, Nancy, if I should jump in that, but I stop.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
You could I stop? You Go ahead, guys, you're hearing
doctor Bethany.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
Marshall Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
Doctor Michelle dupre Is with us. Who is uncharacteristically quiet.
Right now, She's shot to the front of public consciousness
during the Alexan Murdoch double murder trial. Doctor Dupre forensic pathologist,
medical examiner, former detective, and author of literally wrote the
book Homicide Investigation Field Guy Dodtor Dupre jump in. Okay,
(12:59):
doctor Bethany, Well.
Speaker 8 (13:00):
Well, if some mothers going to abandon a child, which
is very rare, chances are she abandoned the child from birds,
or she has a history of not being bonded.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
Oh, you mean like a cat. How they have a
litter out under the deck off the back of the
house and then they just disappear and you find the
cats and have to take care of them. That yeah, okay,
what do you call that? I'm sure you have a
very fancy psychoanalyst term for acting like a cat.
Speaker 8 (13:30):
Well, it's pretty simple. We say lack of maternal bonding.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
I like acting like a cat better. But you know,
you say tomato, I say tomato. So here there was
not that at all, no lack of bonding with the sun. So, guys,
how did the whole thing go down? When do we
realize that Mary Spell is missing? Take a listen to
Nick Brown, Chief investigator out of Alabama.
Speaker 9 (13:57):
Mary was reported missing by her ex host to Heartsell
Police Department, and that was December twenty seventh of They
started working the case and they determined through phone records
that Mary was living in our area into Cab County
at the time, on Lookout Mountain and we picked up
(14:22):
the case. I received the phone call from one of
the lead investigators at HERTZLL.
Speaker 3 (14:26):
What says she stopped by the house that day but.
Speaker 4 (14:29):
Call my husband Dannie at work, and they left Haunsell
and headed home. He called the police because we really
didn't know at the time who it was. And by
the tom he got there, the place was gone, but
they were up the road and no more SIGNABAA.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
So let me understand what happened. First of all, we
know that this is Lookout Mountain area in Alabama to
Cab County, Alabama. Savannah South is with us WAF forty eight.
Tell me about the area, let's just start with that.
Speaker 11 (15:03):
Well, see, the.
Speaker 6 (15:04):
Area of the Cab County is filled with beautiful mountains,
but it's pretty much for the most part rural. You
have areas like Fort Payne, Hnegar. You know, all of
the surrounding areas including Lookout Mountain are pretty quiet, pretty serene.
And it's interesting to note that Mary Elizabeth Ifel was
(15:29):
reported mentalingly in Hertzell, but was found to be living
into Cab County, which is about I would say, around
two hours east of Hartzell. So it was kind of
jarring for all of us to learn that she was
in the Cab County or supposedly into Cab County this
(15:50):
entire time, or was living there for a short period
of time.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
Where in Alabama is Decab County and Lookout Mountain? Where
is that? Exactly?
Speaker 6 (15:59):
If you're looking at Huntsville, the Tennessee Valley area Fort
Pain in the Cabb County is going to be the
northeastern side of Alabama, right under the Tennessee state line.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
Now in Lookout Mountain. The Lookout Mountain area in Alabama
population is about two thousand, very similar to where I
grew up in rural Bibb County in Georgia. And I
can tell you about this area specifically. I've been there
many many times because in Huntsville, not that far away,
there is a huge Scout center, a National Boy Scout Center,
(16:37):
I believe, isn't it James shell Nutt joining us. Isn't
there also a NASA structure there as well, a NASA center.
Speaker 5 (16:46):
Yeah, there's a NASA center in the Huntsville and not
in Little River Canyon.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
So she said that she mentioned the Huntsville area. It's very,
very mountainous and every road is very circuitous, hard to
really get anywhere, and that adds to the difficulty of
the search in this case. So where is Elizabeth Beth
(17:15):
is spelled seemingly vanishing into thin air? Take a listen
again to Nick Brown. Chief investigator Parsel.
Speaker 9 (17:24):
PD had began working at They put her into Cab
County by phone records.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
Through those phone records.
Speaker 9 (17:28):
We determined some of the people that she was speaking
with at the time of her disappearance. We were pretty
sure that it happened between October and November of twenty
twenty one.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
Through those phone.
Speaker 9 (17:37):
Records, whe we were able to track down a few
people and talk to them and determine where she was leaving.
We recovered physical evidence from her home that showed signs
of a struggle, and we knew that at that time
that it was a crime scene.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
Wow, that progressed pretty quickly, So they did all this.
The investigators here, who are keeping everything very close to
the best, they find where she was living through phone records.
They then analyze the phone records and determine to whom
(18:09):
she is speaking the most. They that's how they find
her friends, people she's talking to all the time. And
isn't this right? James shell Nutt, high profile lawyer joining
us out of this jurisdiction. You can also ping the phone.
You can determine how long conversations last, but you look
(18:33):
for recurring numbers, who the individual is speaking with the most,
how often those calls were made. But you have to
go through a subpoena. The phone company is not the
friend of police or prosecutors. You have to go through
a jump a lot of hurdles to get these phone records.
And then what do you do with those phone records
(18:54):
and the information you get from them.
Speaker 5 (18:56):
Well, you're Arm's saying correct, they're not the friend of
law enforcement. A lot of the time do have to
force them to turn that information over. Of course, there's
a lot of privacy laws, but once you get those
phone records, you know, you essentially develop what's more or
less a spreadsheet and determine how often like you said,
they've called these people, what type of contact they've had,
how frequent it is, And that's so important because you know,
(19:18):
in a missing person's case or some other type of
case like that, where you're looking for someone, you want
to start with the people closest to them and speak
with those people first, the people who they've had the
most recent contact with, that they've had the most contact with,
including family and friends, and then work your way further
out of that circle.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
Yeah. So often we say, what's taking so long? Well,
this is what's taking so long. Somebody vanishes into thin
air and you have to subpoena their phone documents and
then start structuring what was happening around the last time
they were seeing. Now we know that the mother goes
(19:56):
to where her daughter's living, nobody there. She calls police,
but the woman beth Elizabeth isbel is first reported by
her exported missing and frankly, doctor Bethany Marshall, when you
have someone report the individual missing, that tends to indicate
(20:19):
they didn't have anything to do with it.
Speaker 8 (20:20):
Oh, Nancy, you're absolutely right. But occasionally there's the husband
or the boyfriend who once they find out their partner's missing,
and they failed to report. They're the ones that go
out and hand out the flyers, walk around the neighborhood crying,
they go on air and say, oh, I'm trying to
find I'm trying to find Mary or Elizabeth or whoever.
And they're the ones who did it. So if it's
(20:42):
the perpetrator, they tend to jump in after the fact
in a very dramatic way. If it's somebody who's really
in a sense it has nothing to do with the crime,
they are the first ones to go forward, and they're
usually the first ones to notice because in this case,
this was her former husband. This was the father of
(21:03):
that teenager whose mother didn't call on Christmas on his birthday,
and they said she always called during very important holidays
and seasons, and she was remarkably absent during those important times.
So they've felt the absence there that says, but this
(21:24):
man is not the perpetrator, clearly, And.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
Of course talked to Michelle Daprie. You've seen a lot
of dead bodies, going to many mini homicide scenes and
conducting literally thousands of autopsies. And this is not based
on statistics, this is anecdotal. I often see the husband
of the boyfriend calling when they quote find the body,
(21:50):
not when the person is missing and nobody's found the
body yet, but when they find the body. Let's just
talk about Murdoch again. He's the one that called nine
one one when he quote found Maggie and his son
Paul dead. Of course he killed them. But when they
find the body, or ostensibly find the body, they call
(22:10):
when the person is just missing. I don't see those
calls coming from the love interest as much.
Speaker 10 (22:16):
Nancy. I think you're absolutely right. And you know, anytime
there is a suspicion of foul play, the husband or
the wife or the boyfriend or girlfriend is always one
of the first suspects, and whoever finds that person is
always one of the first suspects as well, because that's
the way to keep themselves involved in the investigation and
try to throw off law enforcement.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
Big red flag. When they get to Elizabeth's home, they
find signs of a struggle. Listen to our friends at WHNT.
Speaker 12 (22:48):
Investigators gave us a good bit of insight today into
how they got to this point in the case. It's brutal, yes,
a lot of evil from the beginning. Chief and to
Gator Nick Brown, says they felt something was wrong in
the missing person's case of Mary Elizabeth is Boll.
Speaker 9 (23:06):
We recovered physical evidence from her home that showed signs
that they struggle, and a we knew that at that
time that it was a crime scene.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
Wow, you know it's a crime scene. You find signs
of a struggle. But what did they find? Take a
listen to our friend Nikel Williams.
Speaker 4 (23:23):
And you thuck had to get her body back.
Speaker 2 (23:27):
I'd rather he were love. But my feory is she's
not seen anymore.
Speaker 3 (23:34):
A Debbie Wood says, police chants out to see cab County.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
Where is the lid?
Speaker 3 (23:39):
They found her driver's license and her social Security card,
but not her If you know anything about where she
might be called authorities.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
So where are you going to go in life as
an adult without your driver's license or your social Security card?
That's what they found, leading them to believe she went
nowhere willingly. Plus they say they found evidence of a crime.
So about asaf joining us WAFF forty eight, do we
know what suggested a crime had been committed? What did
(24:10):
they find in her own well?
Speaker 6 (24:11):
Yancy and my understanding this from the times that I've
spoken to investigators. They investigated her residence where she was
said to have been living at the time, and as
well as the vehicle she was driving. You know, they
described that they had found physical evidence. They would never,
you know, disclose what that physical evidence was, but they
(24:33):
did enter it into a database, came up with the matches.
But from what investigators saw at her residence and in
her vehicle, there were signs of a struggle. Quoting she's
investigator Nick.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
Brown, signs of a struggle. But then as we were
talking earlier about the ex husband, the father of the
teen boy reporting Elizabeth missing, then all eyes began to
focus on the new boyfriend. Take a listen to our
friends at w AAY thirty one.
Speaker 3 (25:08):
Her mother says she was in a new but troubled relationship.
Speaker 4 (25:12):
They were always fighting and then it's like poof, he's gone.
Don't know where he's at. I finally get to talk
to him and he said, hey, I know she's missing.
Speaker 6 (25:25):
Now.
Speaker 3 (25:25):
Her only wish is that someone who knows anything will
just come forward.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
A name of girl. Okay, that's not good when your
boyfriend disappears right after you disappear. How many times Christopher
Byer's former police chief, John's Creek. Have we seen that
happen the boyfriend just disappears?
Speaker 11 (25:48):
Oh yeah, absolutely, it happens more time than that, And
even the FBI would call that a clue that you
need to start to circle in.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
Even the FBI, I would call that a clue.
Speaker 11 (26:01):
So yeah, it's time to start looking hard at him.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
But then, amazingly, he takes the call from Mary, Elizabeth
Espell's mother and tell sir what she's missing. Okay, I
don't believe that either. How could he not know the
girlfriend is missing? But he did take the call, so
he is reachable. But then out of the blue, a
(26:28):
turn and the case listen to Emily Forrester, wh and T.
Speaker 12 (26:34):
For a year and a half, they tracked down leads,
but nothing came to Fruition investigators said they got a
new credible tip last Tuesday that matched some of their
early findings.
Speaker 9 (26:45):
The tip that came in was some of the names
I was looking at at that time, So that kind
of re sparked a interest in those certain people.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
Well, right there, that tells me that the tip that
they get a year over a year after or Elizabeth
Estpell goes missing matches up. He says, people that they
were looking at earlier. Does that mean somebody on that
call list from her cell phone? Okay, take a listen
(27:13):
again to w H and T.
Speaker 9 (27:14):
Once was very cooperative and helped us and to lead
to Mary's remains where we recovered them Wednesday. They were
actually confirmed today to be Mary Elizabeth and it's no
better day than on her birthday.
Speaker 12 (27:29):
Brown says. It appears Isabel died from being thrown off
a cliff in Little River Canyon National Park.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
Thrown off a cliff. Beth ispell is not missing. She's dead.
Thrown off a cliff, you know Dr Bethany Marshall's taco
Ally side of Beverly Hills. I've seen a lot of homicide,
but it takes a certain let me just say, mindset
(27:58):
to push somebody off a nity.
Speaker 8 (28:01):
This is so cool and heinous. I can't even find
the words like, I'm just imagining whoever the perpetrator or
perpetrators are uh apprehending this poor woman, kidnapping her, clutching her,
picking her up, throwing her off the cliff. The rage
(28:23):
that went into this. You know, we cover homicides where
there are you know, multiple stabbings, where there are you
know where women are are raped, choked, beaten, but thrown
off a cliff takes a unique type of rage towards
the victim exactly.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
Nancy, Wait, who is this Michelle Duprey?
Speaker 11 (28:44):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (28:44):
Can you imagine her last moments?
Speaker 10 (28:48):
I cannot. And this is something very personal, mancy. You
have to touch that person, and you know, you have
to know that you are up close and personal. It's
not like shooting a gun from a distance. This was
very parsonal to push or shove someone off a cliff.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
I wonder if she was lured there, if she was
forced there, How does she get to the top of
a cliff to be shoved off? And how do we
know she didn't slip at fall? Guys, now take a
listen to this.
Speaker 12 (29:16):
Investigators made the first arrest in the case Sunday and
announced the second suspect Friday.
Speaker 9 (29:21):
One of the co defendants was very cooperative and helped
us and to lead to Mary's remains where we recovered
them Wednesday.
Speaker 12 (29:28):
Several factors led them to charge the suspects with capital murder.
Speaker 9 (29:32):
This case meets the criteria not only by kidnapping, but
by multiple other statutes that bring in the capitol so
It's very unhuman, very human and brutal. What these ladies
done to Mary.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
What these ladies, What these ladies did to Mary. Ladies,
listen to our friends wh and t.
Speaker 12 (30:03):
A mother and daughter now facing capital murder charges and
the death of a woman investigators believe was pushed off
a cliff. The Dacab County Sheriff's Office says Mary Elizabeth
Ibol has been missing since late twenty twenty one. Her
remains were found two days ago in Little River Canyon
National Park and identified today on what would have been
her thirty ninth birthday. Two women are charged with capital
(30:26):
murder in her death, now, Loretta Carr and Carr's daughter,
jesse Eden Kelly.
Speaker 9 (30:30):
They are all acquaintances, mainly to a boyfriend, so I
can't give too much details on that right now, but
they all do come back to one specific person.
Speaker 13 (30:41):
Okay, crime stories with Nancy Grace, Please tell me, Savannah
(31:02):
sap w Aff forty eight.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
That these two women, a mother and a daughter, did
not push Elizabeth Ispell off a cliff over a man.
Speaker 6 (31:20):
According to River investigators, Nancy, they did. And it's interesting
to me that you know one of the descendants is
basically being very very cooperative with investigators, while the other
is filing emotions in court saying there's not enough, there's
not enough evidence to charge her. It's very interesting, you
(31:45):
know that there's kind of two sides of this. They're
both kind of petered against each other.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
So you've got one ratting out the other, and the
two co defendants are mother and daughter. I mean, I've
seen a lot to murder this gorgeous young mom by
throwing her off a cliff over a man. No offense
to the men on the panel right now, but I
(32:12):
remember my grandmother on my father's side would say they're
all alike, you know, they just look different. Plus I
knew it will come along every fifteen minutes like a bus.
So they commit murder in a heinous fashion over a man.
Now the man has not been named yet by authorities.
(32:37):
But I'm looking at a photo right now posted by
the Elder car the mother, Loretta Ray Carr, aged forty three,
posing at a national preserve with her then fiance Robert Mitcham.
Not the actor. He appears to be much younger than her,
(32:59):
and he has blue hair. Now, is this the guy
that they were fighting about that they throw a young
mother off a cliff over him. Is he the one?
We don't know yet? But I'm looking at this photo
of the mom car with this young guy, big smile,
(33:20):
and there, interestingly at a national preserve. Then I'm looking
at another photo of the mom car wearing the same shirt,
which indicates to me the same day possibly, and lo
and behold Savannah sap is Lorette K Carr posting a
(33:40):
photo to Facebook. She did this to herself. I didn't
go looking for it. It's right there. And she is
at the spot where Elizabeth Eastpel's body was found. Hello,
she's posting a shot of herself. It's a selfie and
you can see this deep, deep cliff behind her, and
(34:02):
she posted it on Facebook. Help me? Is this truth
about us out?
Speaker 6 (34:06):
Yes? This is absolutely true. And when I stumbled across
it doing my own investigative work, I just kind of
had a hit in my stomach because even though these
these thoughts were posted in the year twenty nineteen, about
around two years before it's felt disappearance, it still gives
you an eerie, almost disturbed feeling because it's a selfie,
(34:29):
you know, car living her everyday life with you know,
beautiful canyon behind her. But once you know the story
and you know what what she is eventually accused of,
it leaves a really almost creeped out feeling.
Speaker 2 (34:46):
I got a very creeped out feeling, and I'm looking
at her in this young fiance and it leads me
to think, now, this is just an educated guest. Everybody
on the panel and wants you to jump in. It
leads me to think that Loretta Ray Carr is the
one involved with a man and she enlists her daughter
Jesse Eden Kelly h twenty one to kill They quote
(35:12):
other women. That other woman would be Mary Elizabeth isbel
Wright because we know a mom and daughter duo are
now charged with the murder of this young mom. Take
a listen to Kila Smith WHNT.
Speaker 14 (35:28):
We are still working to get information about how investigators
tied the suspect to the death of the victim, Mary
Elizabeth I isbel Here's what we know from a criminal
criminal complaint filed this week. The document shows Loretta Carr
from Fort Payne is charged with capital murder. Jail records
reveal Carr was booked into the Camp County Jail Sunday night.
(35:48):
Carr is accused of abducting isbel in October of twenty
twenty one.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
What exactly would that do to a body? Doctor dupree
to die by being slung a cliff.
Speaker 10 (36:01):
When you're thrown over a cliff, you're going to have
a lot of blunt force injuries, things like obviously broken bones, fractures,
all sorts of things like that, pretty much all over
your body, of course, depending on how far the drop is.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
I'm just imagining this beautiful young mom being murdered in
this heinous fashion. Guys, we're talking about Mary Elizabeth estpell Wright.
Her mother distraught trying to find her, where's my daughter?
But the reality is her daughter was long dead, her
(36:38):
crumpled and broken body at the bottom of a cliff and,
according to police, pushed over the cliff by a mother
daughter tag team angry that Estbell was dating their love object,
one of their love objects. But it's not the first time,
of course, that this has happened. Take a listen to
hour cut twenty does a name Lisa Noak ring a Bell.
(37:04):
She was with NASA, an astronaut.
Speaker 7 (37:07):
Listen before she drove from Houston to Orlando to intercept me.
She hid her intentions and her whereabouts, I believe for
the weekend.
Speaker 2 (37:14):
From her coworkers.
Speaker 7 (37:16):
She chose to drive one thousand mile distance rather than fly,
which ensured no record of her trip. She covered her
tracks by traveling under a fake name, wearing a disguise,
and making minimal stops and using only cash. She brought
with her a myriad of weapons, which one season detective
had called a murder kit. Lisa Iak told police, but
she planned to use the weapons that she brought with
(37:36):
her to force me to sit with her.
Speaker 2 (37:38):
To sit with her, that's not exactly what Noak had
in mind.
Speaker 7 (37:42):
To listen, she blasted me with what felt like acid.
It burned my eyes, my nose, in my mouth, and
it sucked the air out of me. I don't know
what other weapons she had at the ready, because I
didn't hang around to find out. I stomped on the
gas and I wondered if there was a gun pointed.
Speaker 2 (37:56):
At my head.
Speaker 7 (37:57):
My eyes and throat were on fire, my lungs ached
for I thought the urge to breathe in whatever poison
it was that she had braved me with. I thought
I had just escaped a car jacking, and I was
sure that she had just tried to kill me to
steal my car. I had no idea that a high ranking,
high paid military officer had just attacked me. I believe
I escaped a horrible death that night.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
You're hearing the victim in that case, Colleen Shipman, giving
her victim impact statement about the attack made by her
then boyfriend's former girlfriend. He drives all the way across
the country to attack Colleen, But she's certainly not the
only one. Does the name Caitlin Armstrong ring abel her
(38:37):
victim Mariah Wilson. Take a list our cut twenty three,
Fox seven, Austin.
Speaker 15 (38:42):
Caitlyn Armstrong wanted by the US Marshals for the murder
of cyclist Mariah Wilson. Wilson was visiting from California and
staying with a friend. She was in Austin ahead of
a race in Hiko. Core paper say the night of
the murder, Wilson went for a swim at deep Eddie
Pool with Colin Strickland, another cyclist, Then they went to
Poolberger before Strickland dropped her off at her friend's house.
(39:04):
Documents say Strickland and Armstrong were in a relationship before
briefly ending it for a couple of weeks last year.
At the time he was involved with Wilson.
Speaker 2 (39:12):
So now Mariah Wilson is dead World champ cyclist in
her twenties, her life and in front of her. Of course
she's not the only one. Take a list. Now we're
cut nineteen Fox to Detroit.
Speaker 16 (39:25):
Twenty six year old Chinania Williamson saw her baby's father
in a car with another woman. He also got pregnant again.
The two women, according to authorities, are pregnant at the
same time by the same man.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
Her boyfriend or ex the relationship.
Speaker 16 (39:41):
Status to somewhat unclear, gets out of the vehicle and
is arguing with Williamson, and that's when she allegedly fires
into the other car, hitting the other pregnant woman in
the leg. But we're told that woman is going to
be okay. She drove herself to the hospital.
Speaker 2 (39:56):
You know, Doctor Bethany Marshall and anybody on the panel
please jump in. The first of all, murder, but the
mode of murder, pushing Espell Elizabeth Espell off a cliff
to her death. Did they lure her there? Did they
force her there? I don't know the answer of that.
But over a man number one, A cheating man, apparently
(40:20):
because it seems like it was having a relationship with
two women. It was, But who cares. I'm not the
church lady. I don't care who's sleeping with who, but
not only to do it, but to enlist your daughter
or your mom to commit murder and that person going
along with it. Who are these two minions from hell?
Speaker 8 (40:39):
You? Nancy? When I first read or heard that it
was a mother daughter duo, I thought, this has to
be over a man. It has to be over jealousy
of some sort. And I would imagine this mother daughter
duo had a long history applauding and planning against anybody
(41:00):
who interfered with their feelings of importance in the world.
Wasn't there another case where a girl failed to become
a cheerleader and they went after the coach the mother's
daughter a team did I'm trying to remember that story,
but right that was a well known one made into
a film. But jealousy and envy are the strongest emotions
(41:25):
and often negative emotions that a person can face. They
come from very early in life. They're very infantile, and
most crimes are motivated by jealousy or envy. Envy you
have something, I want someone to take it from you.
That's deft jealousy. Somebody I want is interested in you
(41:45):
rather than me, So I'm just gonna snuff you out.
And the way that this mother daughter duo threw Beth
over the cliff, I mean the terror she felt as
she was falling to her death, and that's selfy that
the perfect trader took. I mean, I want the listeners
to try to look it up and see it go
on the crime online website, because it's not just the selfie.
(42:07):
She has her head cocked back so that what's in
the back of the selfie is the precipitous decline of
the cliffs. You can see where Beth fell to her death.
I mean she's really triumphing over the victim there.
Speaker 2 (42:23):
Who is the man they were fighting about? Don't know?
Were people sleeping around, don't know. But I can tell
you this much. If my husband, David Lynch, cheats, she
can have him. I'll send him to you cod cash
on delivery. You're paying the fright lady. I don't want
him back. I'll find somebody that can be true. So
(42:46):
far there's been no hint of cheating, but I can
tell you this much. Don't commit murder over a man
or a woman. All their lives are altered forever over
what an Alabama woman suspected of pushing a missing mom
(43:08):
off a cliff to her death and enlisting her daughter
as a hench person. We waked as just as unfolds. Goodbye, friend,
Host
Nancy Grace
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