April 13, 2025 • 44 mins
Luigi Mangione will be facing lethal injection if he is convicted in the murder of United Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson. Mangione has asked for a laptop to assist in his defense.
Mangione was arrested in Altoona, Pennsylvania, apprehended at a McDonald's, where an employee believed he resembled the man who shot Thompson and called the police.
Police say the man had a gun with a suppressor and fake IDs — including one for New Jersey which reportedly was used at the hostel in New York, and a hand-written manifesto. Reportedly, it outlined complaints about the healthcare industry.
JOINING NANCY GRACE TODAY:
- Jason Oshins - NY Defense Attorney
- Dr. Bethany Marshall - Psychoanalyst, Author: "Deal Breaker,” featured in hit show: "Paris in Love" on Peacock www.drbethanymarshall.com/ , Instagram & TikTok: drbethanymarshall, Twitter: @DrBethanyLive
- Tom Smith - Former NYPD Detective, Co-Host of the GOLD SHIELDS Podcast, https://thegoldshieldshow.com, FB & Instagram: @thegoldshieldshow
- Sheryl McCullom - Cold Case Investigative Research Institute Founder, ColdCaseCrimes.org, Host of new podcast: Zone 7, Twitter: @ColdCaseTips
- Ben Dobrin - Virginia Beach Emergency Medical Services EMS Marine Dive Team and EMS Search and Rescue, Professor of Social Work: Virginia Wesleyan University
- Joseph Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet", Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan", @JoScottForensic
- Lauren Conlin - Podcaster/Reporter/Host- Co-Host of Primetime Crime on YouTube. Website: www.popcrime.tv & primetimecrimeshow.com X- @Conlin_Lauren, Instagram- @LaurenEmilyConlin, YouTube: @PopCrimeTV
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. In the last days, the
federal government has announced that Luigi mangione accused in gunning
down a healthcare CEO boss, will face the death penalty.
(00:22):
If administered, it will be by lethal injection. Not only that,
the healthcare industri's PR Awards just went down and Luigi
Mangioni was not the only specter floating around the gala event.
I'm Nancy Greace, this is Crime Stories. Thank you for
(00:44):
being with us. Just weeks after the United Healthcare boss
Brian Thompson was murdered on a Manhattan street, bleeding out
there on the sidewalk, all the superstars of the healthcare
industry Brave returned to Midtown Manhattan. There was just seven
(01:04):
blocks over from where shellcasings were found on the sidewalk.
The occasion the twenty twenty five PR Week health Care Awards,
celebrating the men and women that craft the public perception
of pharmaceutical companies, healthcare insurance companies, hospitals, care providers. How
(01:30):
do they do it through lobbying, corporate outreach advertising. Yep,
it was a pretty glitzy affair. Did anybody bring up
the disaster Brian Thompson, a father of two boys murder.
It was certainly haunting the entire ballroom. I wonder if
(01:54):
this will be the defense's exhibits. For instance, I learned
that Lily, the country's largest pharmaceutical company, reported forty five
billion that's b as in brother billion dollars of revenue
in twenty twenty four. That's nearly thirty three percent more
(02:14):
than last year. Their net income was up one hundred
and two percent. Their profit margin jumped from fifteen to
twenty four percent. Dang. This on the heels of their
launch something called kissun Law. It's a new drug for
Alzheimer's that costs a single patient thirty two thousand dollars
(02:40):
a year. United Healthcare, while mourning the murder of Brian Thompson,
reeled in a record four hundred point three billion as
in brother in revenue twenty twenty four and got their
best ever adjusted profit of ever twenty five billion. Wow, Okay,
(03:02):
they're all celebrating. It was at a place called gustav Vino's.
It's an upscale East side venue. I never had the
opportunity to be there, probably couldn't afford it anyway. Now,
Unlike the most recent big event for the healthcare industry,
the JP Morgan Healthcare Conference that was in January. It
(03:26):
was very security heavy, but this night at Gustavino's, nobody
even checked ID, asking right when you walked in, would
you like some champagne? I think I could use a
glass right now, and I'm a teetotaler. Okay, while they're
toasting champagne for all of their profits, Luigi Manngioni, according
(03:47):
to many, is rightly facing the death penalty. Why reality check?
A ghost gun, a silencer, multiple fake IDs, and hand
written manifesto attacking the health care industry.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Earlier this morning, in Altuna, Pennsylvania, members of the Altuna
Police Department arrested Luigi Mangioni, a twenty six year old
mail on firearms charges. At this time, he is believed
to be our person of interest.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
That's right. In the last hours, a person of interest
nabbed in the fatal shooting of healthcare boss Brian Thopson.
From what we understand, McDonald's employee and Altoona in western
Pennsylvania spotted the guy and thinks he looked like the
(04:40):
health boss assassin, probably trying to use a fake ID
in a McDonald's. According to law enforcement and the New
York Post, the man being eyed for the cold blooded
execution of Brian Topson. The guy has a gun, a
silencer for fake IDs, and other items consistent with what
(05:05):
Lee was looking for in the case. But is it him?
Does he match this description? According to a McDonald's employee,
he does? What else do we know? Where? Is Altoona, Pennsylvania,
Western Pennsylvania, two hundred and eighty miles away from Manhattan,
a little over a five hour drive. But the manhunt
(05:29):
across the nation going in every direction from Manhattan. Divers, drones,
you name it, all used employed to find the killer
of the health care boss. What led to the detainment
of this guy? We also understand that in his possession
(05:52):
is a New Jersey ID, a fake ID, possibly used
to check into that Manhattan hostile In the last hours
police press conference listen.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
A man was taken it to custody today at Altuda,
Pennsylvania this morning. He has been identified as Luigi Nicholas Mangioni.
He's a male, twenty six years old. He was born
and raised in Maryland. We know he has tis to
San Francisco, California, and his last known address was Honolulu, Hawaii.
He has no prior arrest history in New York. Members
(06:24):
of the NYPD Detective Bureau are currently traveling to Pennsylvania
with members of the Manhattan District Attorney's Office to interview
this subject. This case was brought to a successful conclusion
based on the coordinated effort between numerous NYPD units, including
the Intelligence and counter Terrorism Bureau, our federal partners at
the FBI, the Manhattan District Attorney's Office, and of course,
(06:46):
members of the Altoona Police Department in Pennsylvania. On Thursday,
one day after this crime was committed, the NYPD released
a photo of the shooter in this case. This picture
was obtained by the NYPD during one of their extensive
video can We took that photograph and we asked for
the public's health and identifying this subject, and the public responded.
(07:06):
Hundreds of tips began to pour into our hotline. Each
tip was investigated thoroughly, and we began to release additional
photographs as they came into our possession. The NYPD provided
these photos to numerous media outlets. Local, national, and international
outlets released the photo via television, print, social media, and
online content. Luckily, a citizen in Pennsylvania recognized our subject
(07:31):
and called local law enforcement. Members of the Altoona Police
Department responded to the call and based on their investigation,
they notified the NYPD. This investigation is still active and ongoing.
Thank you very much.
Speaker 4 (07:45):
I had a couple questions about document that he was
found in possession with. Can you go a little bit
more in depth about those motivations that you mentioned, was
that CEO specifically named in that document? Was there anything
more about in one to go after others? And also
in that doctor was there any indication that explains us
(08:06):
how the level of detail that he went into killing him, like,
is there anything else?
Speaker 3 (08:11):
That document is currently in the possession of the Ottoon
of Police Department as part of their investigation, but just
from briefly speaking with them, we don't think that there's
any specific threats to other people mentioned in that document,
but it does seem that he has some ill will
towards Corporate America.
Speaker 4 (08:26):
Can you point to a single linchpin that held practice case.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
There's numerous lynchpins in this case, and the fact that
we've recovered an enormous amount of forensic evidence, an enormous
amount of video and once again with your help and
the public SELP. So I couldn't. I really couldn't put
it on one thing, but if I had to, it
would be the release of that photograph from the media.
We had divers in the ward yesterday that came up
negative results the passport. We don't believe that he was
(08:52):
planning on doing any traveling at this time. We don't
think he at this point our investigation, we don't think
he was trying to flee the country.
Speaker 5 (08:57):
Person at McDonald's where they buying, what.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
Were they do were not that exactly.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
It was an employee at the McDonald's. But what was
the suspect do He was sitting there reading, Well.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
He brought back to New York and charge here, and.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
Wow, we're going to have to work that out with
the Manhattan District Attorney's Office in Altoona, Pennsylvania. He's going
to be facing gun charges there and at some point
we'll work out through extradition to bring him back to
New York to face charges here, working with the Manhattan
District Attorney's Office.
Speaker 4 (09:26):
I Needa Hi Nada from the New York Post.
Speaker 6 (09:29):
I was just hoping to get more details of the
capture itself.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
Did he put up a fight, did.
Speaker 6 (09:33):
He say anything the cops?
Speaker 2 (09:34):
And we've also recorded that he published online anti health
ka industry rantings.
Speaker 6 (09:40):
Can you share with us some of the services that
he posted.
Speaker 3 (09:43):
On We're still working through his social media. We're going
to do a complete scrub of that. Preliminarily, like I said,
he seems that he had some ill will towed Corporate America,
but that will all come out as part of our investigation.
We're not done here. We're still going to be putting
this together. We're still going to be working very hard
to bring this to a successful conclusion.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
A ghost gun, a silencer, fake IDs, and a handwritten
manifesto attacking the healthcare industry sounds like our guy. But
what else led to this entertainment in Pennsylvania? Hey, doctor
Bethany Marshall joining us, our renown psychoalyst out of La,
(10:20):
author of deal Breaker. You can see her on Peacock Now,
Doctor Bethany. The theory that the assassin meant to scatter
toy monopoly money over the dead body. That tells me
a lot about him. He's got a lot of time
sitting in somebody's basement, thinking and plotting. It almost rules
(10:41):
out a day job in my mind. But that said,
we know he's white male. We know he's got money
and a guy that can fund himself cash wise for
nearly two weeks in Manhattan. We also know that while
he may have meant to scatter fake monopoly money all
(11:02):
over the dead body, sending a message as if the
nine millimeter bullet didn't do that, he didn't leave the
money behind. But he did leave behind a water bottle
with DNA and fingerprints on it. He left behind a
candy or bar wrapper. He left behind a burner phone.
If they can break into that burner flown burner phone,
(11:23):
that is going to be a tremendous source of evidence.
But he forgot to strow the money, Nancy, he forgot it.
Speaker 7 (11:30):
This guy is obsessional. In the crime world, you may
say methodical. I say obsessional, meaning he has been thinking
about this for a long long time. When I have
a patient like this come into my Beverly Hills office,
they usually are enraged at.
Speaker 6 (11:46):
One person and that is all they can talk about.
Speaker 7 (11:49):
What they would like to do, what the person's look
on their face would be like, you know, Nancy.
Speaker 6 (11:54):
With obsessional paranoia, the person person sort of alleviates their
rage by constantly thinking about inflicting harm on the victim.
But I also think although he obsessed about this and
planned it out, this was his first crime, he did
not He did not think about what it would be
(12:16):
like to drop a candy wrapper, drop the water bottle.
He didn't have time to plan them. He didn't have
time to scatter the monopoly money. This was all in
his head. You'd never practiced before.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
Hey, you know what, Tom Smith, former NYPD knows this
area like the back of his hand. Tom the burner,
the cell phone. I mean, there's an outside chance it's
his actual cell phone. But the reports wearing is it's
a burner phone. Lauren Colin, Yes, no burner phone, actual phone,
burner phone, Nancy, Tom Smith. What I'm coming to you
about is the phone? What an idiot? I think. Bethany's right,
(12:53):
this may be his first time at the rodeo. And
you know, like, well, let me think of a good one. Robert.
Remember when he and his henchman got his bodyguards, got
together and murdered Bonni Lee Bakley, and they had this
extensive to do list. Very often you can catch the
purp because of their to do list and they're over planning, right.
(13:17):
But the burner phone they're really hard to break into.
Do you remember in the Alexan Burrog trial they had
to bring in the Secret Service to crack his phone.
Speaker 8 (13:25):
Yeah, and I agree with Lauren. It's a burner phone
and who knows what's on there. Yeah, he could just
use it for simple things. Again, if he plans it
out and knows Berner phones and what to use them for.
There may not be a lot on there, but the
ability to break in there might not be that difficult
because of the low technology that Bernarfone Giugi are and
(13:47):
the limited amount of information that'll be on there.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
Crime stories with Nancy Grace as healthcare haun shows attend
a swinky pr award glitzy galla evening at Gustavino's in Manhattan.
Luigi Manngioni is now facing the death penalty. Boo hoo.
(14:18):
Some would argue that's what you get for gunning down
a CEO boss in cold blood on the sidewalk in Manhattan,
leaving behind a widow and two little boys without a father.
All the surveillance video, all the pictures that we've got
so far, talking on the phone just before the murder. Hey,
Doctor Bethany Marshall, and then I'm gonna follow up with
(14:40):
renow defense attorney Jason Oceans. Doctor Bethany, He's not worried.
Look at him. He has practiced this over and over
and over. He has been watching the victim like a
hawk from the moment the victim got into town. This
guy knows the itinerary by heart. He knew that there
was a breakfast, he knew that that started at eight o'clock.
(15:04):
He knew that the victim was going over ahead of
time from the Hilton over to the Executive Forum where
he was set to speak that morning. Now, all of
this surveillance video is from individuals and businesses along the trek.
Check it out. So what I'm getting at, Dr Bethany,
(15:26):
this guy's cold, cool, and calculated.
Speaker 7 (15:29):
This is definitely cold blooded and methodical. To use the
panel's term, Nancy. There's one thing this guy forgot to do.
He didn't watch the Nancy Grace Show, because if he had,
he would have known that there were surveillance cameras all
along that street. And that fifteen minute phone call that
makes me wonder if this is like the DC sniper
where an older, more ruthless person recruited a younger person,
(15:53):
or that he's acting in concert with somebody else and
that's why he's on that phone.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
Hey, Lauren, it was a call fifteen minutes before the shooting,
not a fifteen minute phone call. Correct.
Speaker 5 (16:05):
Correct, The phone call occurred at six thirty am.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
So Doctor Bethany. But I agree with what you were saying.
But he did not ye act for fifteen minutes. It's
almost as if he's checking in because I'm wondering is
he speaking or is he listening? I can't tell. Plus
his mouth is covered right there. And I'll tell you
why Jason Ocean is joining me re Noow defense attorney
and joining us out of this jurisdiction. Who also, you
(16:29):
and I have walked this track before together at Jason Ocean,
So back around cour TV and hl N Day's Jason true.
The reason I'm wondering if he was listening to something
and not talking. I prosecuted an arson murder, and just
before the guy brined his mansion down and tried to
(16:53):
fake that his wife died in the fire from smoking elation,
he called and checked the weather channel. Jason, I was
so happy. He called and checked the weather channel to
find out if it was going to rain the day
he was setting the house on fire. So, for all
I know, this guy's checking the bus schedule or checking
(17:14):
was Now I know he was not on a flight.
I know he was on a bus. But every time
I'm headed to Legardia, I call or I check online
to see if my delta flight is delayed. Okay, how
do I know if he was just checking something or
actually speaking to someone. In Bethany's train of thought, what
if he calls someone it was a quick callment, Hey
(17:36):
I'm on the way right now, I'm walking, I just
passed Starbucks. It could be that. It could be anything NTA.
Speaker 9 (17:43):
I think the theory that, you know, the potential theory
that he was directed by someone and that's why he
was on the phone is fascinating. And then also struck
by that his lack of knowledge, you know, the overall
aspect of the cameras that are everywhere. I think he
didn't plan for that. That was the one thing in
this seemingly meticulous planning that was that was not done.
(18:05):
But that phone call could be very critical if we
can find out if it was an incoming or an
outgoing call, and the limited technology it has in the
ability to bust that phone up.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
I got to figure out how the Secret Service actually
cracks it. You'd think it would be easy, because you know,
Cheryl McCollum with me forensic expert. When I was researching
for my last book, Don't Be a Victim, I found
out that about I think it was seventy percent or
eighty percent, some crazy astronomical number of people still use
(18:38):
the factory code that they had on answer machines, or
they do one two three four is their code, or
one one one one, or of course sixty nine sixty
nine that's no tried and true, or let's see lucky
numbers that they come up with, like seven seven seven seven.
It's so predictable. But then you got somebody like this
(19:01):
who's uh, half smart, and he's probably got some bizarre
code on his cellphone the burner. You know how long
it took them to crack Alex Murdog's final They had
to bring in the Secret Service to do it.
Speaker 10 (19:15):
Exactly means you look at that phone call could have
been something as simple as he called in seek to
work because he knew he wasn't gonna make it. Who
you can call it? Six forty five am is a
very small group of people, So it could have been
he's checking the bus schedule because he's leaving that morning
and wants to make sure that's smart.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
It's smart smart. Wait, you just you just really gave
me clue, Cheryl, Who are you going to call at
six o'clock in the morning?
Speaker 11 (19:42):
Okay?
Speaker 1 (19:43):
Not very many people.
Speaker 10 (19:45):
Okay, go ahead, because if you call your mom or
a sister or something like that, you're going to scare
the day like that of them. So it's got to
be somebody that's obvious. So you can leave a message
for somebody because you know they're not at work at
you can check the bus schedule. What is interested in
that is I am his other messages, what he wrote
on the shellcasing the threat before the murder, the fact
(20:08):
that he would choose New York and not the victim
poeme state why not shoot him at any red light
going to work?
Speaker 1 (20:15):
Oh, Cheryl, Cheryl, you just gave me another tidbit. Hold on,
I want to tell everybody. At first, we were led
to believe that the bullets were engraved in some way
with Deny defend deposed. We now know it was written
with black sharp which tells me even more. Do you
(20:39):
know that you can get a handwriting sample off of that?
Not that I think police are going to need a
handwriting sample when they've got fingerprints in DNA, But you
never know what might click with the jury. What about it,
Cheryl one hundred percent.
Speaker 10 (20:54):
But again it tells you he took extra time to
leave a message on shellcasings. He took extra come to
get the monopoly money. That's a message. Shooting him in
New York City the morning of that meet and was
a message. He could have shot him anytime in his home,
stated a red light, but he didn't well.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
CEO's and pr Guru's toast the healthcare industry's huge record
breaking profits from twenty twenty four. Luigi Mangioni sitting behind
bars facing the death penalty.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
The suspect was in a McDonald's and was recognized by
an employee, who then called local police. Responding officers questioned
the suspect, who was acting suspiciously and was carrying multiple
fraudulent IDs as well as a US passport.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
First, I want to go out to our dive expert.
I'm curious about the search in the lake at Central Park.
Speaker 12 (21:52):
The New York Police Department dive team is called into
action after the discovery of the backpack near Hexer Playground.
The divers are seen trawling a Central Park pond behind
an area cordoned off with police tape next to Bethesda Fountain,
in a body of water known as the Lake near
Central Park boat House. The NYPD has been searching Central
Park since the Gunmo was seen escaping on an ee
bike into the park. Police have not yet recovered the
(22:13):
distinctive gun used in the shooting, and it's unclear if
officers recovered any evidence from the water.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
Joining me special guest Ben Dobrian Virginia Beach Emergency Medical Services,
also the Dean of Professional Services at Virginia Wesleyan University.
He is an expert diver and he is actually a
dive instructor.
Speaker 11 (22:36):
Well, I do a lot of police diving also and
just into emergency diving. And so I'm looking at this
on Google Maps, and it's a relatively closed area, so
that makes it a lot easier than having to go
into the ocean or you know, a great lake, or
the chestbea bay, So it makes it a lot easier
for the divers. It's also I just looked it up,
it's only four to six feet deep, so that also
makes it a lot more simple to do a dive operation.
(22:57):
But what they could be doing is they're could be
looking for anything that they can find. And one thing
that your listeners and watchers need to understand is anything
that exists above water exists underwater. People use it as
a garbage dump. We find you name it, bikes, washing machines,
shopping carts, so there's a lot of debris. The more
people that are around, the more people use that as
(23:18):
a dumping ground. But there's two things that I imagine
they're looking for just listening to the different news reports
and listening to you. They're looking for the firearm obviously,
but that telephone also, they're looking for that. You know,
those are both very small items that are relatively easy
to discard, and one of the things that if you
find an item like that, you're gonna have to recover it.
Evidence recovery is the same underwater as it is above
(23:40):
water from the police perspective, but the one thing we
have to keep in mind is that it's in a
different environment. Evidence above water is in air, so all
if you do is keep it in the air. But
evidence that's recovered underwater you have to recover it with
the water. If you take it out of the water,
things start to break down relatively quickly. When I'm talking
about specifically is fingerprints if you take something out of
(24:00):
the water, and fingerprints can last for about a week underwater,
so the clock is ticking. But if you remove whether
it's a firearm or the telephone or any piece of evidence,
you're going to want to take it out of the
water and just bring some of the local water with
it and then bring that to your forensics office and
then they're going to drain the water and then do
(24:20):
all the magic that they do to get the fingerprints
off of it.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
Okay, Ben Dobwin is joining me, not only Dan Professional
Services at Virginia Westley, and he is a dive instructor
and a police diver. Now, Ben, you just taught me
something I didn't know. Number One, when items are taken
out of the water, you have to preserve them in
preferably the ambiant water the water in which they were in,
(24:48):
because the moment they hit the air, it starts to degrade.
For instance, fingerprints. Joe Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University,
author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, and star
of a hit series Body Bags with Joe Scott Morgan.
I wanted to talk to you about the gun, but
I'm going to follow up on what Dobrain is telling us. Yes,
(25:08):
prints are preserved underwater because prints, fingerprints are based on
the oil in the body oil water. Get it? You
can explain better than me, Go ahead.
Speaker 13 (25:19):
Yeah, Our fingerprints come about as a result of the
discharge of the fatty lipids that we have in the
pores that surround the print that's left behind. Remember, we
don't have fingerprints on the tips of our fingers. We
have friction ridges that leave behind fingerprints. So in this
particular case, we believe that this is a weapon that
(25:42):
has a magazine in it, Nancy. So if you have
a magazine, that means that you're going to be pressing
down on the rounds as you're loading the magazine in,
and also you're touching that surface of the magazine. The
magazine is this then fitted into a cent the grip
of this weapon and it's kind of in a protected
(26:03):
space there. So what Ben is talking about is right
on the money. You have this protected space. If you
can keep this in uh in the water that it
comes from and take that into the lab, they can
get around that weapon pretty quickly and raise any kind
of latent prints that might be there.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
You did that so eloquently, Joe Scott, I would have
just said, you know, like oil and water don't mix.
That's exactly what I'm saying here.
Speaker 13 (26:31):
That one more thing about it, Yeah, you think about
you know, Ben had mentioned how densely populated, and all
of us have been to Manhattan, how densely populated this area.
This guy and pay very close than you on I'm
about to say this guy, if he did this, he
(26:52):
ain't the first person to think about dumping a weapon
into that lake, all right. So they have a herculean
task at hand here dealing around, dealing in this filthy
water where they're going to be using their hands, crawling along.
How many other weapons are in there. Just because you
find a firearm merged doesn't mean it's the firearm that
(27:15):
was used.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
Ben, I want to follow up with you on this
is a great thing to throw at Jason Ocean's when
we come back. But this guy did so much planning, Ben,
but I bet he didn't measure the depth of this
lake and has no idea even though it's big, it's
twenty acres, I guarantee you he didn't know that it
(27:40):
was just four to six feet deep.
Speaker 11 (27:41):
And I just found that Google. And if you go
a little bit further north, it looks like there's the
reservoir in the park and that's forty feet deep, So
that is significantly deeper. I mean it's obviously you can
dive that. It just takes a little bit longer to
get down and get up. But four to six feet
is super easy. If they find something, they can just
pop their head out of the water and look at it.
And what he did said is we've done training dives
in local lakes where we have found multiple guns. What
(28:05):
we weren't looking for. I mean, we're just doing a
training dive and we found guns. I found a flint
lock pistol. I wasn't looking for one time, because you know,
in a populated era of people think, oh if I
if I discard a firearm in this lake, nobody will
ever find it. Well, you know it's hard to see,
but if people are looking for it, they're gonna find it.
You know, the New York City Police dive team is
one of the most respected in the world. If it's
in that little area there, they're going to find something.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Luigi Mangioni sitting behind bars
facing the death penalty death buy needle this as he demands,
I want a laptop. Waen waen waen? What that's right?
Mangione's laptop request is now up to the jail after
(28:56):
the judge Anow says the judge has no problem with it. Hmm.
Maybe Emanngioni can better communicate with all of his fans
sending him money and sexy pictures of themselves. But right now,
Emanngioni's request to get a laptop behind bars is up
to Brooklyn's Metropolitan Detention Center the MDC, as he awaits
trial in the murder of United Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson.
(29:21):
His lawyer's proposing he gets a specifically configured laptop that
would only allow him to review case materials. Right, and
did he doesn't have a phone. Okay, let's just stop
right there and remember Brian Thompson bleeding out on the sidewalk.
You think he thought of his two little boys, maybe
(29:43):
his wife. That morning, this is what happened, laptop and
glitzy party at Gustavino's. Be damned. A man napped in
western Pennsylvania in the Altoona area at a local McDonald.
He has now been arrested on charges relating to a gun,
(30:06):
sources telling us it was a so called ghost gun,
a gun that has no serial number that is often
put together with a kit. The parts of the gun
purchased or obtained separately, a ghost gun and a silencer,
along with a hand written manifesto attacking the healthcare industry. Wow,
(30:28):
it's joining me right now is expert Tom Smith, NYPD,
detective thirty years and the star of the gold Shields podcast.
Tom again, thank you for being with us. We've learned
a lot about the gun. At first, it looks like
it's been manipulated with a homemade silencer on it. We
(30:51):
are now understanding that is not a homemade silencer. That
this is a weapon that is often used by narians
to put down that's nice word for it, animals. The
magazine is in the grip, and when many people thought
that it was jamming and he was clearing it after
(31:12):
each shot, which I thought he did really calmly and methodically.
We now know it may be a bolt action that
has to be manually cycled after each shot. That changes things,
Tom Smith.
Speaker 8 (31:24):
Yes, it does, because now he knows he's proficient in
that weapon, knowing every time he fires it, he's going
to have to chamber around. And if I could show
you real quick, this is a glock, not the same
weapon that was used, but but similar functioning. Every time
he fires that weapon, he'd have to click it like
this in order to chamber around to fire the next round.
(31:45):
And the thing about him is he knows the weapon
because he knows that's coming. It's not a surprise to him.
So he fires around, has to clear it, fire another round,
clear it, to chamber around each time. And he knows
the weapon and he knows that is coming and has
to do that, and that's why he stays kind of calm.
Any other criminal I've ever dealt with in New York City,
(32:08):
what's a weapons jams, They throw it away, they run.
He knows exactly how this weapon is being used.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
Okay, for once, the movie's got it right, Tom Smith.
Because in the movies you always see the person jam
the weapon and they just throw it or they throw
it at the person they're shooting at. Here when you
look at the video, he's walking toward the victim. I
guarantee you, Tom Smith, this guy practiced probably at a
(32:36):
gun range.
Speaker 8 (32:37):
Oh yeah, and you probably have practiced with that weapon, because,
like I said, there's a big difference when you're viewing
this whether someone's panicking or anticipating the movement he's doing.
He knows what he has to do to fire that weapon.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
You know, I want you to explain one more time
for novices out there about the bolt action. We now
don't believe the gun was jamming. Everybody believe it was
a bolt action that has to be manually recycled after
every shot. Could you explain that and demonstrate one more
time please, Tom.
Speaker 8 (33:10):
Yeah, this is a nine millimeter weapon and the magazine
port is in here just like you mentioned, it's at
the bottom of the handle. So once a round is fired,
he has to manually clear that round to chamber another
round in order to fire it. He'll fire it again
and do the same thing over and over again. So,
like I said, he's very aware of how that gun
(33:31):
he's used and what he used to do to fire.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
You know another issue, Tom Smith, and I'm going to
bring everybody back in in just a second. But Tom,
another feature of this particular gun that is traditionally used
by veterinarians to put down animals is it has a
very quiet shot, very quiet shot. And the gun we're
(33:56):
talking about has a long as we saw, could you
hold yours up again as a very long barrel like that?
This one even seemed a little bit longer than yours.
And that can be confused because it looks like a silencer,
but it's not.
Speaker 8 (34:16):
It's a long weapon and easier to aim because you
have more of an angle of your target in front
of you. So, like I said, he is very aware
of how this weapon is used and what it needs
to do to fight.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
Is this gun is a specialized gun. This guy practiced
and practiced, and he had everything planned out. You know,
he practiced with the murder weapon. He didn't just trot
over to Connecticut and buy a gun and then use
it the next day. That did not happen. Think of
the mindset here. This is a gun he brought with
him on a bus, didn't get on a plane because
(34:52):
he couldn't get through TSA with a gun for Pete's sake.
Speaker 5 (34:55):
And.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
The airlines know who you are, They had your picture,
they have you every three feet in the airport. He
didn't want that. He wanted to travel with his gun.
What criminal that's practiced and practiced and planned and plan
was to use an aligen gun.
Speaker 8 (35:12):
Well, it's hard to trace. That's why if you're using
a normal weapon with a serial number and so forth,
it's easily traced, whether you find it in a month
or a year. This we have no idea whether there's
any serial numbers on it, whether there's any distinguishing markings
on it. So it could be very benign in the
in identifying it. And that's why he paid.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
What I'm saying, doctor Bethany Marshall, is that this guy
did not just go into a gun shop and buy
the gun just before the murder. If he planned this
methodically to get to Manhattan and to carry out this crime,
staking out the scene the moment he got there November
twenty four to ten pm, he didn't go to bed.
He went to this location where the forum was going
(35:57):
to be held. He didn't buy a new gun. I
don't think I think he brought his preferred weapon with
him after practicing for hours on end.
Speaker 7 (36:08):
This guy is upper middle class. This guy has money,
He has disposable money, and he had access to a
weapon in a professional environment. This is not somebody who
goes to a gun shop with a fake ID and
tries to skip the background check and gets a gun.
Speaker 6 (36:24):
This is a man who knows this weapon.
Speaker 7 (36:28):
This is also a man who has researched where this
CEO is going to be.
Speaker 14 (36:33):
Early reports on the shooting of Brian Thompson pointed to
a silencer being used or a modern version of a
rare World War two gun. The investigators found themselves looking
into a Connecticut gun store they believe may have sold
the weapon. That lead did not pan out, but now
Chief Detective Joseph Kenny says they are looking into the
use of a veterinary gun being used as the murder weapon.
(36:56):
Kenny says the weapon is normally used on farms and
ranches and an animal needs to be put down. The
animal can be shot with this type of weapon that
doesn't cause a large noise.
Speaker 1 (37:08):
Welcome back. In the last hours, a man nabbed at
a local McDonald's. The twenty six year old taking into
custody on gun charges, apparently had a ghost gun, a silencer,
multiple fake IDs, and a hand written manifesto attacking the
healthcare industry. It's not just this moment. This moment is
(37:33):
the culmination of thousands of law enforcement man hours like this.
Speaker 15 (37:39):
Amid speculation that the shooter traveled to New York on
a bus that left from Atlanta, NYPD officers have traveled
south for part of their investigation. APD confirmed through a
statement that its officers are assisting the NYPD investigators, whom
arrived in Atlanta on Saturday. Sources say they are searching
through video from the bus station in town and to
(38:00):
others along the route to New York City. Officers are
working to find a name from tickets purchased for a
November twenty fourth Greyhound trip.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
He noticed, the investigative reporter said, looking for a name,
I guarantee you it's not going to be his name.
Let me just say that the security and verification procedures
at the bus station a lot less stringent than it
is at the airport. He could have gone in with
any fake ID and gotten a bus ticket under a
fake name, just like he had a fake ID that
(38:31):
he got out of Jersey, just like he used a
fake ID when he checked into that youth hostel. And
speaking of the youth hostel, Lauren Colin joining the investigative
reporter and star a primetime crime on YouTube, Lauren, much
was made of him flirting with the receptionist. That's not
what happened. We now know that to check into that hostel,
(38:54):
and it's not just at a hostel. That's where they're
doing it. Fancy hotels too. When they say, you know,
we need some ID, look at them. The next time
they ask you that, they look back up at your face. Right. So, yeah,
there was a little flirtation. You can see him smiling
right there. That's about ten thousand dollars worth of orthodontia
on that mouth right there. But that's another can of worms, Lauren. So,
(39:16):
I don't know that the clerk was flirting with him.
She very well may have said, pulled down your mask.
I got to make an ID. I mean, this is
not the ritz, okay, right right, and you're correct, Nancy.
Speaker 5 (39:30):
I did visit the hostel, and everybody working there was friendly,
not overly friendly. Something I noticed was that there were
multiple cameras throughout the lobby of the hostel. There were
cameras outside of the hostel as well, so my understanding
is they most likely have multiple angles of this guy,
(39:51):
of this shooter. I also visited the businesses surrounding the hostel.
I went inside to a local bodega. I went inside
to a dunkin and they informed me that they not
do any sort of talking about what they know to
anyone but the NYPD, but also that they turned over
footage as well. So I believe that NYPD is going
(40:13):
through all of the footage they have right now, which, look,
it's gonna take some time. This is not gonna happen overnight,
but I think there's going to be a lot more
and stills being released of this guy and what he
did during his time in New York before the shooting.
Speaker 1 (40:28):
Straight out to you, Cheryl McCollum, let's look at this guy.
Who is he? Based on everything we know right.
Speaker 10 (40:34):
Now, Nancy, I think one thing that's imperative that everybody's
not mentioning is when you talk to the clerk at
the hostel. If this were my case, the first thing
I would have asked her is does he have an accent?
And that's why I think again, they are focused on Atlanta.
They know where the bus originated, they know what he
sounds like. If he's from here, they're gonna know it.
(40:56):
The other thing about that weapon, remember we have three words,
which means three possible showcasing. So that gun either jams
and we have an unspent or we have three spent,
which means he missed one.
Speaker 1 (41:11):
Possibly a ghost gun, a silence, sir, fake IDs, and
a handwritten manifesto attacking the healthcare industry. Sounds like our guy.
But what else led to this detainment in Pennsylvania? To
doctor Bethany Marshall joining us for now it psychoanalyst way in,
(41:33):
doctor Bethany, what's your take on it? Who is he?
Speaker 6 (41:36):
Nancy? This guy is upper middle class, he's educated. He
knew to do this hit.
Speaker 7 (41:43):
At the healthcare conference because he's sending a message. If
he did it at a traffic stop or at the
victim's home, it would not send the message. The scribbling
on the ammunition he caught that from researching internal documents
at insurance and companies and citing words that employees or
(42:04):
claims processors use to deny claims. I am going to
guess that he had a family member who has denied care,
and because of that denied care, the family member died
and he cannot get over it. So this is although
he looks like a street thug on you know, at
first glance.
Speaker 12 (42:23):
He is not.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
He's got a square chin, perfect teeth, wax between the eyebrows,
eyes going slightly down at the outer edges. He can
change a lot, but there are some things he can't change,
like his fingerprints and DNA.
Speaker 13 (42:43):
Joe Scott, Yep, you're absolutely right. Those are unique to him, Nancy.
And here's one other thing. I did a little digging
one of this this weapon that they keep referring to,
that's the veterinarian euthanasia weapon. They believe might be a
what's referred to as a State six brand weapon. My
research revealed that there are essentially, I think either four
(43:07):
or five locations in the metro area where these can
be specifically purchased. And I think that if they believe
that that's what this is and that he transported it,
I think you're on the money here. Relative to getting
on a bus with this thing, he may have picked
it up down there at some point in time, and
(43:28):
it's not a very efficient weapon for doing the task
that he was trying to do. So I don't know,
maybe he was trying to you know, he's not going
to draw attention to himself, like when you buy a
suppressor separately from a weapon perhaps, and it's not very
efficient because you have to you lose your site picture
every time you have to rotate that bolt on the
(43:50):
back of that weapon, which is what he's doing. He's
spending it. I think that many of the answers that
we're looking for are probably going to rest as well.
And this is something that we will hear a lot about,
I believe, with United Healthcare and their chief security officer,
who was actually hired back in August of twenty twenty three,
I want to know what she knows. I want to
(44:12):
know what her assets know within that business. Are their
letters that have been written, are their lawsuits that have
been filed relative to what doctor Bethany mentioned about healthcare
claims that may have been blown off or maybe they
didn't receive what they wanted. But trust me, the security
apparatus within that company is going to be working on well.
Speaker 1 (44:34):
MANGIONI can enjoy his laptop and the insurance pr jurus
and CEOs can enjoy their champagne. I will look forward
to the jury trial of Luigi Mangioni. Goodbye friend,
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. In the last days, the
federal government has announced that Luigi mangione accused in gunning
down a healthcare CEO boss, will face the death penalty.
(00:22):
If administered, it will be by lethal injection. Not only that,
the healthcare industri's PR Awards just went down and Luigi
Mangioni was not the only specter floating around the gala event.
I'm Nancy Greace, this is Crime Stories. Thank you for
(00:44):
being with us. Just weeks after the United Healthcare boss
Brian Thompson was murdered on a Manhattan street, bleeding out
there on the sidewalk, all the superstars of the healthcare
industry Brave returned to Midtown Manhattan. There was just seven
(01:04):
blocks over from where shellcasings were found on the sidewalk.
The occasion the twenty twenty five PR Week health Care Awards,
celebrating the men and women that craft the public perception
of pharmaceutical companies, healthcare insurance companies, hospitals, care providers. How
(01:30):
do they do it through lobbying, corporate outreach advertising. Yep,
it was a pretty glitzy affair. Did anybody bring up
the disaster Brian Thompson, a father of two boys murder.
It was certainly haunting the entire ballroom. I wonder if
(01:54):
this will be the defense's exhibits. For instance, I learned
that Lily, the country's largest pharmaceutical company, reported forty five
billion that's b as in brother billion dollars of revenue
in twenty twenty four. That's nearly thirty three percent more
(02:14):
than last year. Their net income was up one hundred
and two percent. Their profit margin jumped from fifteen to
twenty four percent. Dang. This on the heels of their
launch something called kissun Law. It's a new drug for
Alzheimer's that costs a single patient thirty two thousand dollars
(02:40):
a year. United Healthcare, while mourning the murder of Brian Thompson,
reeled in a record four hundred point three billion as
in brother in revenue twenty twenty four and got their
best ever adjusted profit of ever twenty five billion. Wow, Okay,
(03:02):
they're all celebrating. It was at a place called gustav Vino's.
It's an upscale East side venue. I never had the
opportunity to be there, probably couldn't afford it anyway. Now,
Unlike the most recent big event for the healthcare industry,
the JP Morgan Healthcare Conference that was in January. It
(03:26):
was very security heavy, but this night at Gustavino's, nobody
even checked ID, asking right when you walked in, would
you like some champagne? I think I could use a
glass right now, and I'm a teetotaler. Okay, while they're
toasting champagne for all of their profits, Luigi Manngioni, according
(03:47):
to many, is rightly facing the death penalty. Why reality check?
A ghost gun, a silencer, multiple fake IDs, and hand
written manifesto attacking the health care industry.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Earlier this morning, in Altuna, Pennsylvania, members of the Altuna
Police Department arrested Luigi Mangioni, a twenty six year old
mail on firearms charges. At this time, he is believed
to be our person of interest.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
That's right. In the last hours, a person of interest
nabbed in the fatal shooting of healthcare boss Brian Thopson.
From what we understand, McDonald's employee and Altoona in western
Pennsylvania spotted the guy and thinks he looked like the
(04:40):
health boss assassin, probably trying to use a fake ID
in a McDonald's. According to law enforcement and the New
York Post, the man being eyed for the cold blooded
execution of Brian Topson. The guy has a gun, a
silencer for fake IDs, and other items consistent with what
(05:05):
Lee was looking for in the case. But is it him?
Does he match this description? According to a McDonald's employee,
he does? What else do we know? Where? Is Altoona, Pennsylvania,
Western Pennsylvania, two hundred and eighty miles away from Manhattan,
a little over a five hour drive. But the manhunt
(05:29):
across the nation going in every direction from Manhattan. Divers, drones,
you name it, all used employed to find the killer
of the health care boss. What led to the detainment
of this guy? We also understand that in his possession
(05:52):
is a New Jersey ID, a fake ID, possibly used
to check into that Manhattan hostile In the last hours
police press conference listen.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
A man was taken it to custody today at Altuda,
Pennsylvania this morning. He has been identified as Luigi Nicholas Mangioni.
He's a male, twenty six years old. He was born
and raised in Maryland. We know he has tis to
San Francisco, California, and his last known address was Honolulu, Hawaii.
He has no prior arrest history in New York. Members
(06:24):
of the NYPD Detective Bureau are currently traveling to Pennsylvania
with members of the Manhattan District Attorney's Office to interview
this subject. This case was brought to a successful conclusion
based on the coordinated effort between numerous NYPD units, including
the Intelligence and counter Terrorism Bureau, our federal partners at
the FBI, the Manhattan District Attorney's Office, and of course,
(06:46):
members of the Altoona Police Department in Pennsylvania. On Thursday,
one day after this crime was committed, the NYPD released
a photo of the shooter in this case. This picture
was obtained by the NYPD during one of their extensive
video can We took that photograph and we asked for
the public's health and identifying this subject, and the public responded.
(07:06):
Hundreds of tips began to pour into our hotline. Each
tip was investigated thoroughly, and we began to release additional
photographs as they came into our possession. The NYPD provided
these photos to numerous media outlets. Local, national, and international
outlets released the photo via television, print, social media, and
online content. Luckily, a citizen in Pennsylvania recognized our subject
(07:31):
and called local law enforcement. Members of the Altoona Police
Department responded to the call and based on their investigation,
they notified the NYPD. This investigation is still active and ongoing.
Thank you very much.
Speaker 4 (07:45):
I had a couple questions about document that he was
found in possession with. Can you go a little bit
more in depth about those motivations that you mentioned, was
that CEO specifically named in that document? Was there anything
more about in one to go after others? And also
in that doctor was there any indication that explains us
(08:06):
how the level of detail that he went into killing him, like,
is there anything else?
Speaker 3 (08:11):
That document is currently in the possession of the Ottoon
of Police Department as part of their investigation, but just
from briefly speaking with them, we don't think that there's
any specific threats to other people mentioned in that document,
but it does seem that he has some ill will
towards Corporate America.
Speaker 4 (08:26):
Can you point to a single linchpin that held practice case.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
There's numerous lynchpins in this case, and the fact that
we've recovered an enormous amount of forensic evidence, an enormous
amount of video and once again with your help and
the public SELP. So I couldn't. I really couldn't put
it on one thing, but if I had to, it
would be the release of that photograph from the media.
We had divers in the ward yesterday that came up
negative results the passport. We don't believe that he was
(08:52):
planning on doing any traveling at this time. We don't
think he at this point our investigation, we don't think
he was trying to flee the country.
Speaker 5 (08:57):
Person at McDonald's where they buying, what.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
Were they do were not that exactly.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
It was an employee at the McDonald's. But what was
the suspect do He was sitting there reading, Well.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
He brought back to New York and charge here, and.
Speaker 3 (09:12):
Wow, we're going to have to work that out with
the Manhattan District Attorney's Office in Altoona, Pennsylvania. He's going
to be facing gun charges there and at some point
we'll work out through extradition to bring him back to
New York to face charges here, working with the Manhattan
District Attorney's Office.
Speaker 4 (09:26):
I Needa Hi Nada from the New York Post.
Speaker 6 (09:29):
I was just hoping to get more details of the
capture itself.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
Did he put up a fight, did.
Speaker 6 (09:33):
He say anything the cops?
Speaker 2 (09:34):
And we've also recorded that he published online anti health
ka industry rantings.
Speaker 6 (09:40):
Can you share with us some of the services that
he posted.
Speaker 3 (09:43):
On We're still working through his social media. We're going
to do a complete scrub of that. Preliminarily, like I said,
he seems that he had some ill will towed Corporate America,
but that will all come out as part of our investigation.
We're not done here. We're still going to be putting
this together. We're still going to be working very hard
to bring this to a successful conclusion.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
A ghost gun, a silencer, fake IDs, and a handwritten
manifesto attacking the healthcare industry sounds like our guy. But
what else led to this entertainment in Pennsylvania? Hey, doctor
Bethany Marshall joining us, our renown psychoalyst out of La,
(10:20):
author of deal Breaker. You can see her on Peacock Now,
Doctor Bethany. The theory that the assassin meant to scatter
toy monopoly money over the dead body. That tells me
a lot about him. He's got a lot of time
sitting in somebody's basement, thinking and plotting. It almost rules
(10:41):
out a day job in my mind. But that said,
we know he's white male. We know he's got money
and a guy that can fund himself cash wise for
nearly two weeks in Manhattan. We also know that while
he may have meant to scatter fake monopoly money all
(11:02):
over the dead body, sending a message as if the
nine millimeter bullet didn't do that, he didn't leave the
money behind. But he did leave behind a water bottle
with DNA and fingerprints on it. He left behind a
candy or bar wrapper. He left behind a burner phone.
If they can break into that burner flown burner phone,
(11:23):
that is going to be a tremendous source of evidence.
But he forgot to strow the money, Nancy, he forgot it.
Speaker 7 (11:30):
This guy is obsessional. In the crime world, you may
say methodical. I say obsessional, meaning he has been thinking
about this for a long long time. When I have
a patient like this come into my Beverly Hills office,
they usually are enraged at.
Speaker 6 (11:46):
One person and that is all they can talk about.
Speaker 7 (11:49):
What they would like to do, what the person's look
on their face would be like, you know, Nancy.
Speaker 6 (11:54):
With obsessional paranoia, the person person sort of alleviates their
rage by constantly thinking about inflicting harm on the victim.
But I also think although he obsessed about this and
planned it out, this was his first crime, he did
not He did not think about what it would be
(12:16):
like to drop a candy wrapper, drop the water bottle.
He didn't have time to plan them. He didn't have
time to scatter the monopoly money. This was all in
his head. You'd never practiced before.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
Hey, you know what, Tom Smith, former NYPD knows this
area like the back of his hand. Tom the burner,
the cell phone. I mean, there's an outside chance it's
his actual cell phone. But the reports wearing is it's
a burner phone. Lauren Colin, Yes, no burner phone, actual phone,
burner phone, Nancy, Tom Smith. What I'm coming to you
about is the phone? What an idiot? I think. Bethany's right,
(12:53):
this may be his first time at the rodeo. And
you know, like, well, let me think of a good one. Robert.
Remember when he and his henchman got his bodyguards, got
together and murdered Bonni Lee Bakley, and they had this
extensive to do list. Very often you can catch the
purp because of their to do list and they're over planning, right.
(13:17):
But the burner phone they're really hard to break into.
Do you remember in the Alexan Burrog trial they had
to bring in the Secret Service to crack his phone.
Speaker 8 (13:25):
Yeah, and I agree with Lauren. It's a burner phone
and who knows what's on there. Yeah, he could just
use it for simple things. Again, if he plans it
out and knows Berner phones and what to use them for.
There may not be a lot on there, but the
ability to break in there might not be that difficult
because of the low technology that Bernarfone Giugi are and
(13:47):
the limited amount of information that'll be on there.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
Crime stories with Nancy Grace as healthcare haun shows attend
a swinky pr award glitzy galla evening at Gustavino's in Manhattan.
Luigi Manngioni is now facing the death penalty. Boo hoo.
(14:18):
Some would argue that's what you get for gunning down
a CEO boss in cold blood on the sidewalk in Manhattan,
leaving behind a widow and two little boys without a father.
All the surveillance video, all the pictures that we've got
so far, talking on the phone just before the murder. Hey,
Doctor Bethany Marshall, and then I'm gonna follow up with
(14:40):
renow defense attorney Jason Oceans. Doctor Bethany, He's not worried.
Look at him. He has practiced this over and over
and over. He has been watching the victim like a
hawk from the moment the victim got into town. This
guy knows the itinerary by heart. He knew that there
was a breakfast, he knew that that started at eight o'clock.
(15:04):
He knew that the victim was going over ahead of
time from the Hilton over to the Executive Forum where
he was set to speak that morning. Now, all of
this surveillance video is from individuals and businesses along the trek.
Check it out. So what I'm getting at, Dr Bethany,
(15:26):
this guy's cold, cool, and calculated.
Speaker 7 (15:29):
This is definitely cold blooded and methodical. To use the
panel's term, Nancy. There's one thing this guy forgot to do.
He didn't watch the Nancy Grace Show, because if he had,
he would have known that there were surveillance cameras all
along that street. And that fifteen minute phone call that
makes me wonder if this is like the DC sniper
where an older, more ruthless person recruited a younger person,
(15:53):
or that he's acting in concert with somebody else and
that's why he's on that phone.
Speaker 1 (15:57):
Hey, Lauren, it was a call fifteen minutes before the shooting,
not a fifteen minute phone call. Correct.
Speaker 5 (16:05):
Correct, The phone call occurred at six thirty am.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
So Doctor Bethany. But I agree with what you were saying.
But he did not ye act for fifteen minutes. It's
almost as if he's checking in because I'm wondering is
he speaking or is he listening? I can't tell. Plus
his mouth is covered right there. And I'll tell you
why Jason Ocean is joining me re Noow defense attorney
and joining us out of this jurisdiction. Who also, you
(16:29):
and I have walked this track before together at Jason Ocean,
So back around cour TV and hl N Day's Jason true.
The reason I'm wondering if he was listening to something
and not talking. I prosecuted an arson murder, and just
before the guy brined his mansion down and tried to
(16:53):
fake that his wife died in the fire from smoking elation,
he called and checked the weather channel. Jason, I was
so happy. He called and checked the weather channel to
find out if it was going to rain the day
he was setting the house on fire. So, for all
I know, this guy's checking the bus schedule or checking
(17:14):
was Now I know he was not on a flight.
I know he was on a bus. But every time
I'm headed to Legardia, I call or I check online
to see if my delta flight is delayed. Okay, how
do I know if he was just checking something or
actually speaking to someone. In Bethany's train of thought, what
if he calls someone it was a quick callment, Hey
(17:36):
I'm on the way right now, I'm walking, I just
passed Starbucks. It could be that. It could be anything NTA.
Speaker 9 (17:43):
I think the theory that, you know, the potential theory
that he was directed by someone and that's why he
was on the phone is fascinating. And then also struck
by that his lack of knowledge, you know, the overall
aspect of the cameras that are everywhere. I think he
didn't plan for that. That was the one thing in
this seemingly meticulous planning that was that was not done.
(18:05):
But that phone call could be very critical if we
can find out if it was an incoming or an
outgoing call, and the limited technology it has in the
ability to bust that phone up.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
I got to figure out how the Secret Service actually
cracks it. You'd think it would be easy, because you know,
Cheryl McCollum with me forensic expert. When I was researching
for my last book, Don't Be a Victim, I found
out that about I think it was seventy percent or
eighty percent, some crazy astronomical number of people still use
(18:38):
the factory code that they had on answer machines, or
they do one two three four is their code, or
one one one one, or of course sixty nine sixty
nine that's no tried and true, or let's see lucky
numbers that they come up with, like seven seven seven seven.
It's so predictable. But then you got somebody like this
(19:01):
who's uh, half smart, and he's probably got some bizarre
code on his cellphone the burner. You know how long
it took them to crack Alex Murdog's final They had
to bring in the Secret Service to do it.
Speaker 10 (19:15):
Exactly means you look at that phone call could have
been something as simple as he called in seek to
work because he knew he wasn't gonna make it. Who
you can call it? Six forty five am is a
very small group of people, So it could have been
he's checking the bus schedule because he's leaving that morning
and wants to make sure that's smart.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
It's smart smart. Wait, you just you just really gave
me clue, Cheryl, Who are you going to call at
six o'clock in the morning?
Speaker 11 (19:42):
Okay?
Speaker 1 (19:43):
Not very many people.
Speaker 10 (19:45):
Okay, go ahead, because if you call your mom or
a sister or something like that, you're going to scare
the day like that of them. So it's got to
be somebody that's obvious. So you can leave a message
for somebody because you know they're not at work at
you can check the bus schedule. What is interested in
that is I am his other messages, what he wrote
on the shellcasing the threat before the murder, the fact
(20:08):
that he would choose New York and not the victim
poeme state why not shoot him at any red light
going to work?
Speaker 1 (20:15):
Oh, Cheryl, Cheryl, you just gave me another tidbit. Hold on,
I want to tell everybody. At first, we were led
to believe that the bullets were engraved in some way
with Deny defend deposed. We now know it was written
with black sharp which tells me even more. Do you
(20:39):
know that you can get a handwriting sample off of that?
Not that I think police are going to need a
handwriting sample when they've got fingerprints in DNA, But you
never know what might click with the jury. What about it,
Cheryl one hundred percent.
Speaker 10 (20:54):
But again it tells you he took extra time to
leave a message on shellcasings. He took extra come to
get the monopoly money. That's a message. Shooting him in
New York City the morning of that meet and was
a message. He could have shot him anytime in his home,
stated a red light, but he didn't well.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
CEO's and pr Guru's toast the healthcare industry's huge record
breaking profits from twenty twenty four. Luigi Mangioni sitting behind
bars facing the death penalty.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
The suspect was in a McDonald's and was recognized by
an employee, who then called local police. Responding officers questioned
the suspect, who was acting suspiciously and was carrying multiple
fraudulent IDs as well as a US passport.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
First, I want to go out to our dive expert.
I'm curious about the search in the lake at Central Park.
Speaker 12 (21:52):
The New York Police Department dive team is called into
action after the discovery of the backpack near Hexer Playground.
The divers are seen trawling a Central Park pond behind
an area cordoned off with police tape next to Bethesda Fountain,
in a body of water known as the Lake near
Central Park boat House. The NYPD has been searching Central
Park since the Gunmo was seen escaping on an ee
bike into the park. Police have not yet recovered the
(22:13):
distinctive gun used in the shooting, and it's unclear if
officers recovered any evidence from the water.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
Joining me special guest Ben Dobrian Virginia Beach Emergency Medical Services,
also the Dean of Professional Services at Virginia Wesleyan University.
He is an expert diver and he is actually a
dive instructor.
Speaker 11 (22:36):
Well, I do a lot of police diving also and
just into emergency diving. And so I'm looking at this
on Google Maps, and it's a relatively closed area, so
that makes it a lot easier than having to go
into the ocean or you know, a great lake, or
the chestbea bay, So it makes it a lot easier
for the divers. It's also I just looked it up,
it's only four to six feet deep, so that also
makes it a lot more simple to do a dive operation.
(22:57):
But what they could be doing is they're could be
looking for anything that they can find. And one thing
that your listeners and watchers need to understand is anything
that exists above water exists underwater. People use it as
a garbage dump. We find you name it, bikes, washing machines,
shopping carts, so there's a lot of debris. The more
people that are around, the more people use that as
(23:18):
a dumping ground. But there's two things that I imagine
they're looking for just listening to the different news reports
and listening to you. They're looking for the firearm obviously,
but that telephone also, they're looking for that. You know,
those are both very small items that are relatively easy
to discard, and one of the things that if you
find an item like that, you're gonna have to recover it.
Evidence recovery is the same underwater as it is above
(23:40):
water from the police perspective, but the one thing we
have to keep in mind is that it's in a
different environment. Evidence above water is in air, so all
if you do is keep it in the air. But
evidence that's recovered underwater you have to recover it with
the water. If you take it out of the water,
things start to break down relatively quickly. When I'm talking
about specifically is fingerprints if you take something out of
(24:00):
the water, and fingerprints can last for about a week underwater,
so the clock is ticking. But if you remove whether
it's a firearm or the telephone or any piece of evidence,
you're going to want to take it out of the
water and just bring some of the local water with
it and then bring that to your forensics office and
then they're going to drain the water and then do
(24:20):
all the magic that they do to get the fingerprints
off of it.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
Okay, Ben Dobwin is joining me, not only Dan Professional
Services at Virginia Westley, and he is a dive instructor
and a police diver. Now, Ben, you just taught me
something I didn't know. Number One, when items are taken
out of the water, you have to preserve them in
preferably the ambiant water the water in which they were in,
(24:48):
because the moment they hit the air, it starts to degrade.
For instance, fingerprints. Joe Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University,
author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, and star
of a hit series Body Bags with Joe Scott Morgan.
I wanted to talk to you about the gun, but
I'm going to follow up on what Dobrain is telling us. Yes,
(25:08):
prints are preserved underwater because prints, fingerprints are based on
the oil in the body oil water. Get it? You
can explain better than me, Go ahead.
Speaker 13 (25:19):
Yeah, Our fingerprints come about as a result of the
discharge of the fatty lipids that we have in the
pores that surround the print that's left behind. Remember, we
don't have fingerprints on the tips of our fingers. We
have friction ridges that leave behind fingerprints. So in this
particular case, we believe that this is a weapon that
(25:42):
has a magazine in it, Nancy. So if you have
a magazine, that means that you're going to be pressing
down on the rounds as you're loading the magazine in,
and also you're touching that surface of the magazine. The
magazine is this then fitted into a cent the grip
of this weapon and it's kind of in a protected
(26:03):
space there. So what Ben is talking about is right
on the money. You have this protected space. If you
can keep this in uh in the water that it
comes from and take that into the lab, they can
get around that weapon pretty quickly and raise any kind
of latent prints that might be there.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
You did that so eloquently, Joe Scott, I would have
just said, you know, like oil and water don't mix.
That's exactly what I'm saying here.
Speaker 13 (26:31):
That one more thing about it, Yeah, you think about
you know, Ben had mentioned how densely populated, and all
of us have been to Manhattan, how densely populated this area.
This guy and pay very close than you on I'm
about to say this guy, if he did this, he
(26:52):
ain't the first person to think about dumping a weapon
into that lake, all right. So they have a herculean
task at hand here dealing around, dealing in this filthy
water where they're going to be using their hands, crawling along.
How many other weapons are in there. Just because you
find a firearm merged doesn't mean it's the firearm that
(27:15):
was used.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
Ben, I want to follow up with you on this
is a great thing to throw at Jason Ocean's when
we come back. But this guy did so much planning, Ben,
but I bet he didn't measure the depth of this
lake and has no idea even though it's big, it's
twenty acres, I guarantee you he didn't know that it
(27:40):
was just four to six feet deep.
Speaker 11 (27:41):
And I just found that Google. And if you go
a little bit further north, it looks like there's the
reservoir in the park and that's forty feet deep, So
that is significantly deeper. I mean it's obviously you can
dive that. It just takes a little bit longer to
get down and get up. But four to six feet
is super easy. If they find something, they can just
pop their head out of the water and look at it.
And what he did said is we've done training dives
in local lakes where we have found multiple guns. What
(28:05):
we weren't looking for. I mean, we're just doing a
training dive and we found guns. I found a flint
lock pistol. I wasn't looking for one time, because you know,
in a populated era of people think, oh if I
if I discard a firearm in this lake, nobody will
ever find it. Well, you know it's hard to see,
but if people are looking for it, they're gonna find it.
You know, the New York City Police dive team is
one of the most respected in the world. If it's
in that little area there, they're going to find something.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Luigi Mangioni sitting behind bars
facing the death penalty death buy needle this as he demands,
I want a laptop. Waen waen waen? What that's right?
Mangione's laptop request is now up to the jail after
(28:56):
the judge Anow says the judge has no problem with it. Hmm.
Maybe Emanngioni can better communicate with all of his fans
sending him money and sexy pictures of themselves. But right now,
Emanngioni's request to get a laptop behind bars is up
to Brooklyn's Metropolitan Detention Center the MDC, as he awaits
trial in the murder of United Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson.
(29:21):
His lawyer's proposing he gets a specifically configured laptop that
would only allow him to review case materials. Right, and
did he doesn't have a phone. Okay, let's just stop
right there and remember Brian Thompson bleeding out on the sidewalk.
You think he thought of his two little boys, maybe
(29:43):
his wife. That morning, this is what happened, laptop and
glitzy party at Gustavino's. Be damned. A man napped in
western Pennsylvania in the Altoona area at a local McDonald.
He has now been arrested on charges relating to a gun,
(30:06):
sources telling us it was a so called ghost gun,
a gun that has no serial number that is often
put together with a kit. The parts of the gun
purchased or obtained separately, a ghost gun and a silencer,
along with a hand written manifesto attacking the healthcare industry. Wow,
(30:28):
it's joining me right now is expert Tom Smith, NYPD,
detective thirty years and the star of the gold Shields podcast.
Tom again, thank you for being with us. We've learned
a lot about the gun. At first, it looks like
it's been manipulated with a homemade silencer on it. We
(30:51):
are now understanding that is not a homemade silencer. That
this is a weapon that is often used by narians
to put down that's nice word for it, animals. The
magazine is in the grip, and when many people thought
that it was jamming and he was clearing it after
(31:12):
each shot, which I thought he did really calmly and methodically.
We now know it may be a bolt action that
has to be manually cycled after each shot. That changes things,
Tom Smith.
Speaker 8 (31:24):
Yes, it does, because now he knows he's proficient in
that weapon, knowing every time he fires it, he's going
to have to chamber around. And if I could show
you real quick, this is a glock, not the same
weapon that was used, but but similar functioning. Every time
he fires that weapon, he'd have to click it like
this in order to chamber around to fire the next round.
(31:45):
And the thing about him is he knows the weapon
because he knows that's coming. It's not a surprise to him.
So he fires around, has to clear it, fire another round,
clear it, to chamber around each time. And he knows
the weapon and he knows that is coming and has
to do that, and that's why he stays kind of calm.
Any other criminal I've ever dealt with in New York City,
(32:08):
what's a weapons jams, They throw it away, they run.
He knows exactly how this weapon is being used.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
Okay, for once, the movie's got it right, Tom Smith.
Because in the movies you always see the person jam
the weapon and they just throw it or they throw
it at the person they're shooting at. Here when you
look at the video, he's walking toward the victim. I
guarantee you, Tom Smith, this guy practiced probably at a
(32:36):
gun range.
Speaker 8 (32:37):
Oh yeah, and you probably have practiced with that weapon, because,
like I said, there's a big difference when you're viewing
this whether someone's panicking or anticipating the movement he's doing.
He knows what he has to do to fire that weapon.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
You know, I want you to explain one more time
for novices out there about the bolt action. We now
don't believe the gun was jamming. Everybody believe it was
a bolt action that has to be manually recycled after
every shot. Could you explain that and demonstrate one more
time please, Tom.
Speaker 8 (33:10):
Yeah, this is a nine millimeter weapon and the magazine
port is in here just like you mentioned, it's at
the bottom of the handle. So once a round is fired,
he has to manually clear that round to chamber another
round in order to fire it. He'll fire it again
and do the same thing over and over again. So,
like I said, he's very aware of how that gun
(33:31):
he's used and what he used to do to fire.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
You know another issue, Tom Smith, and I'm going to
bring everybody back in in just a second. But Tom,
another feature of this particular gun that is traditionally used
by veterinarians to put down animals is it has a
very quiet shot, very quiet shot. And the gun we're
(33:56):
talking about has a long as we saw, could you
hold yours up again as a very long barrel like that?
This one even seemed a little bit longer than yours.
And that can be confused because it looks like a silencer,
but it's not.
Speaker 8 (34:16):
It's a long weapon and easier to aim because you
have more of an angle of your target in front
of you. So, like I said, he is very aware
of how this weapon is used and what it needs
to do to fight.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
Is this gun is a specialized gun. This guy practiced
and practiced, and he had everything planned out. You know,
he practiced with the murder weapon. He didn't just trot
over to Connecticut and buy a gun and then use
it the next day. That did not happen. Think of
the mindset here. This is a gun he brought with
him on a bus, didn't get on a plane because
(34:52):
he couldn't get through TSA with a gun for Pete's sake.
Speaker 5 (34:55):
And.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
The airlines know who you are, They had your picture,
they have you every three feet in the airport. He
didn't want that. He wanted to travel with his gun.
What criminal that's practiced and practiced and planned and plan
was to use an aligen gun.
Speaker 8 (35:12):
Well, it's hard to trace. That's why if you're using
a normal weapon with a serial number and so forth,
it's easily traced, whether you find it in a month
or a year. This we have no idea whether there's
any serial numbers on it, whether there's any distinguishing markings
on it. So it could be very benign in the
in identifying it. And that's why he paid.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
What I'm saying, doctor Bethany Marshall, is that this guy
did not just go into a gun shop and buy
the gun just before the murder. If he planned this
methodically to get to Manhattan and to carry out this crime,
staking out the scene the moment he got there November
twenty four to ten pm, he didn't go to bed.
He went to this location where the forum was going
(35:57):
to be held. He didn't buy a new gun. I
don't think I think he brought his preferred weapon with
him after practicing for hours on end.
Speaker 7 (36:08):
This guy is upper middle class. This guy has money,
He has disposable money, and he had access to a
weapon in a professional environment. This is not somebody who
goes to a gun shop with a fake ID and
tries to skip the background check and gets a gun.
Speaker 6 (36:24):
This is a man who knows this weapon.
Speaker 7 (36:28):
This is also a man who has researched where this
CEO is going to be.
Speaker 14 (36:33):
Early reports on the shooting of Brian Thompson pointed to
a silencer being used or a modern version of a
rare World War two gun. The investigators found themselves looking
into a Connecticut gun store they believe may have sold
the weapon. That lead did not pan out, but now
Chief Detective Joseph Kenny says they are looking into the
use of a veterinary gun being used as the murder weapon.
(36:56):
Kenny says the weapon is normally used on farms and
ranches and an animal needs to be put down. The
animal can be shot with this type of weapon that
doesn't cause a large noise.
Speaker 1 (37:08):
Welcome back. In the last hours, a man nabbed at
a local McDonald's. The twenty six year old taking into
custody on gun charges, apparently had a ghost gun, a silencer,
multiple fake IDs, and a hand written manifesto attacking the
healthcare industry. It's not just this moment. This moment is
(37:33):
the culmination of thousands of law enforcement man hours like this.
Speaker 15 (37:39):
Amid speculation that the shooter traveled to New York on
a bus that left from Atlanta, NYPD officers have traveled
south for part of their investigation. APD confirmed through a
statement that its officers are assisting the NYPD investigators, whom
arrived in Atlanta on Saturday. Sources say they are searching
through video from the bus station in town and to
(38:00):
others along the route to New York City. Officers are
working to find a name from tickets purchased for a
November twenty fourth Greyhound trip.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
He noticed, the investigative reporter said, looking for a name,
I guarantee you it's not going to be his name.
Let me just say that the security and verification procedures
at the bus station a lot less stringent than it
is at the airport. He could have gone in with
any fake ID and gotten a bus ticket under a
fake name, just like he had a fake ID that
(38:31):
he got out of Jersey, just like he used a
fake ID when he checked into that youth hostel. And
speaking of the youth hostel, Lauren Colin joining the investigative
reporter and star a primetime crime on YouTube, Lauren, much
was made of him flirting with the receptionist. That's not
what happened. We now know that to check into that hostel,
(38:54):
and it's not just at a hostel. That's where they're
doing it. Fancy hotels too. When they say, you know,
we need some ID, look at them. The next time
they ask you that, they look back up at your face. Right. So, yeah,
there was a little flirtation. You can see him smiling
right there. That's about ten thousand dollars worth of orthodontia
on that mouth right there. But that's another can of worms, Lauren. So,
(39:16):
I don't know that the clerk was flirting with him.
She very well may have said, pulled down your mask.
I got to make an ID. I mean, this is
not the ritz, okay, right right, and you're correct, Nancy.
Speaker 5 (39:30):
I did visit the hostel, and everybody working there was friendly,
not overly friendly. Something I noticed was that there were
multiple cameras throughout the lobby of the hostel. There were
cameras outside of the hostel as well, so my understanding
is they most likely have multiple angles of this guy,
(39:51):
of this shooter. I also visited the businesses surrounding the hostel.
I went inside to a local bodega. I went inside
to a dunkin and they informed me that they not
do any sort of talking about what they know to
anyone but the NYPD, but also that they turned over
footage as well. So I believe that NYPD is going
(40:13):
through all of the footage they have right now, which, look,
it's gonna take some time. This is not gonna happen overnight,
but I think there's going to be a lot more
and stills being released of this guy and what he
did during his time in New York before the shooting.
Speaker 1 (40:28):
Straight out to you, Cheryl McCollum, let's look at this guy.
Who is he? Based on everything we know right.
Speaker 10 (40:34):
Now, Nancy, I think one thing that's imperative that everybody's
not mentioning is when you talk to the clerk at
the hostel. If this were my case, the first thing
I would have asked her is does he have an accent?
And that's why I think again, they are focused on Atlanta.
They know where the bus originated, they know what he
sounds like. If he's from here, they're gonna know it.
(40:56):
The other thing about that weapon, remember we have three words,
which means three possible showcasing. So that gun either jams
and we have an unspent or we have three spent,
which means he missed one.
Speaker 1 (41:11):
Possibly a ghost gun, a silence, sir, fake IDs, and
a handwritten manifesto attacking the healthcare industry. Sounds like our guy.
But what else led to this detainment in Pennsylvania? To
doctor Bethany Marshall joining us for now it psychoanalyst way in,
(41:33):
doctor Bethany, what's your take on it? Who is he?
Speaker 6 (41:36):
Nancy? This guy is upper middle class, he's educated. He
knew to do this hit.
Speaker 7 (41:43):
At the healthcare conference because he's sending a message. If
he did it at a traffic stop or at the
victim's home, it would not send the message. The scribbling
on the ammunition he caught that from researching internal documents
at insurance and companies and citing words that employees or
(42:04):
claims processors use to deny claims. I am going to
guess that he had a family member who has denied care,
and because of that denied care, the family member died
and he cannot get over it. So this is although
he looks like a street thug on you know, at
first glance.
Speaker 12 (42:23):
He is not.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
He's got a square chin, perfect teeth, wax between the eyebrows,
eyes going slightly down at the outer edges. He can
change a lot, but there are some things he can't change,
like his fingerprints and DNA.
Speaker 13 (42:43):
Joe Scott, Yep, you're absolutely right. Those are unique to him, Nancy.
And here's one other thing. I did a little digging
one of this this weapon that they keep referring to,
that's the veterinarian euthanasia weapon. They believe might be a
what's referred to as a State six brand weapon. My
research revealed that there are essentially, I think either four
(43:07):
or five locations in the metro area where these can
be specifically purchased. And I think that if they believe
that that's what this is and that he transported it,
I think you're on the money here. Relative to getting
on a bus with this thing, he may have picked
it up down there at some point in time, and
(43:28):
it's not a very efficient weapon for doing the task
that he was trying to do. So I don't know,
maybe he was trying to you know, he's not going
to draw attention to himself, like when you buy a
suppressor separately from a weapon perhaps, and it's not very
efficient because you have to you lose your site picture
every time you have to rotate that bolt on the
(43:50):
back of that weapon, which is what he's doing. He's
spending it. I think that many of the answers that
we're looking for are probably going to rest as well.
And this is something that we will hear a lot about,
I believe, with United Healthcare and their chief security officer,
who was actually hired back in August of twenty twenty three,
I want to know what she knows. I want to
(44:12):
know what her assets know within that business. Are their
letters that have been written, are their lawsuits that have
been filed relative to what doctor Bethany mentioned about healthcare
claims that may have been blown off or maybe they
didn't receive what they wanted. But trust me, the security
apparatus within that company is going to be working on well.
Speaker 1 (44:34):
MANGIONI can enjoy his laptop and the insurance pr jurus
and CEOs can enjoy their champagne. I will look forward
to the jury trial of Luigi Mangioni. Goodbye friend,
Host
Nancy Grace
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