July 21, 2025 • 44 mins
Attorney General Pam Bondi is facing pressure from all sides to release the Epstein files, receiving major backlash after a memo from the Justice Department and FBI contradicted promises she previously made about releasing Epstein’s list.
She now claims the incriminating "client list does not exist," that Epstein did not blackmail prominent figures, and that he died by suicide.
Mark Epstein, Jeffrey Epstein's brother, says he has no reason to believe his brother took his own life. Instead, he alleges that Jeffrey was murdered and points to the federal government’s lack of transparency as potential evidence of a cover-up.
Metadata analysis suggests the “raw” Jeffrey Epstein prison video from the night of his death may have been modified. While there is no definitive evidence proving the footage was tampered with, growing suspicion surrounds the key minutes missing from the video—fueling even more conspiracy theories, including claims that Epstein may still be alive.
Epstein was first investigated by federal authorities in Florida in 2000, which resulted in a non-prosecution agreement and a guilty plea to state prostitution charges. He was later charged with child sex trafficking in Manhattan in 2019. The government also secured a conviction against Epstein’s co-conspirator, Ghislaine Maxwell.
Joining Nancy Grace today:
- Mark Epstein - Brother of Jeffrey Epstein
- Spencer Kuvin - Chief Legal Officer of GOLDLAW, Represented 9 victims of Epstein
- Darryl Cohen - Former Assistant District Attorney, Former Assistant State Attorney (Florida), & Defense Attorney at Cohen, Cooper, Estep, & Allen; Facebook: "Darryl B Cohen," X @DarrylBCohen
- Caryn Stark - Forensic Psychologist, Renowned TV and Radio Trauma Expert and Consultant; Instagram: carynpsych, FB: Caryn Stark Private Practice
- Todd Shipley - Digital Cyber-Crime expert, Former Detective Sergeant with the Reno, Nevada Police Dept. [with 25 year in law enforcement], Author of "Surviving a Cyberattack: Securing Social Media and Protecting Your Home" and “Investigating Internet Crimes: An Introduction to solving Crimes in Cyberspace;" X: @webcase
- Dr. DeWayne Hendrix - Former Associate Warden at the MDC in Brooklyn, and Former Senior Warden with the US Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of Prisons; Founder and President of A New Daylight Foundation and Author: "Who Are You? See it Say it and Seize it;" @anewdaylight (IG) @drdewaynehendrix (LinkedIn) @anewdaylight (X)
- Joseph Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author of "Blood Beneath My Feet," and Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan;" X:@JoScottForensic
- Dylan Howard - Investigative Journalist and Author of "Epstein: Dead Men Tell No Tales
- Dave Mack - Crime Stories Investigative Reporter
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, Breaking news tonight.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Message to Bondie, Pam Bondie, the US Attorney General release
the files, the Jeffrey Epstein files in case you need clarification, Bondie, you.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
Promised, now deliver. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
I want to thank you for being with us, joining
me now an all star panel to make sense of
what we are learning. Tonight, Dylan Howard is with US
investigative journalist and author of Epstein Dead Man, Tell No Tales.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
But first I'd like you to listen to this.
Speaker 4 (00:43):
What you're going to see hopefully tomorrow is a lot
of flight logs, a lot of names, a lot of information.
But it's pretty sick what.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
That man did.
Speaker 4 (00:55):
A source had told me where the documents were being
kept southern to strict of New York's shock. So we
got them all by, hopefully all of them Friday at
eight am, thousands of pages of documents. I have the
FBI going through them. Director of Patel is going to
get us a detailed report as to why the FBI
withheld all of those documents.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
From my friends at Fox twenty five, Dylan Howard, that
was Pam Bondy, the US Attorney General, promising, and I've
got so many clips of her promising out the Ying Yang,
promising the release of the Epstein files, and at that
point blaming the hold up on the Southern District of
New York, which I accepted. I accepted that at the
(01:38):
time I had no reason to disbelieve her or to
believe a nefarious intent on anyone's mind, anyone including the
Southern District. But now, really, she just referred to thousands
and thousands and thousands of pages of files, and now
we're being told there's nothing in there. Were not releasing them.
(02:00):
If there's nothing in there, why not release them? Mister Howard, Well,
this is.
Speaker 5 (02:04):
A cover up of epic proportions, and not just because
of the national discord over the last week. That is
President Donald Trump's alleged ties to Jeffrey Epstein's No, we've
known that for decades, and we've known that they had
a friendship leading up to Epstein's two thousand and five
investigation in Florida. Now, Trump obviously campaigned on a desire
(02:28):
for transparency. This is the antithesis of it. The reality
was that what was released in that so called phase
one of epstein files being dumped on the American public
was nothing new. What we know is that there are
tens of thousands of documents related to Epstein that the
(02:49):
Southern District of New York, a division of the Department
of Justice, and the FBI are refusing to release. How
do we know that because one of the news outlets
that I own, Radar Online, first sued in twenty seventeen
the FBI for a full and frank disclosure of these
(03:12):
documents related to that two thousand and five case in Florida.
At the time, Nancy, we were stonewalled. Believe it or not,
the Southern District of New York invoked Jeffrey Epstein's privacy
rights over those of the dozens of victims at the
center of that case in Florida. Then Epstein dies. Was
(03:35):
it suicide or was it murder? Still, the Southern District
of New York wouldn't release the files. Fast forward to
last year and a US judge in the Southern District
hands down a verdict against the news outlet, Radar Online
the news. The verdict there was that the information containing
(03:57):
those files could jeopardize any potential appeal of Epstein's accomplice
Gislaying Maxwell. Well, that is now under appeal, and what
is evident in now recently filed appeal is that there
are more than eleven thousand documents that have not been
released to the public around this child sex trafficking ring.
(04:19):
And one must ask themselves at this hour is the
rights of Jeffrey Epstein and Gislaying Maxwell being protected over
those of what the DOJ has now said are more
than one thousand victims of the Jeffrey Epstein sex trafficking ring.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
I'm very curious as to why the documents are not
being disclosed now. Dylan Howard, you suggest a nefarious relationship
between Trump and Epstein. Many celebrities take photos that later
they wish they hadn't taken. Photos alone. Do not decay
(05:01):
wrongdoing on behalf of Trump. But I will tell you
what is a smoking gun to me? We were told
the documents would be released. Now we're being told there's
nothing to see. If there's nothing to see, why not
release them? Who if anyone is being no.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
Naty, I'm not go ahead, please.
Speaker 5 (05:26):
No Nazi. I'm not suggesting an afarious link between Trump
and Epstein. What I'm saying is that there has been
a search for an afarious link between Trump and Epstein.
But I think that it obscures somewhat the real crux
of the matter here, and that is that there is
significant intelligence in the hands of the Department of Justice
and the FBI that has not been released to the
(05:48):
American people. And we know that through various motions that
have been put forward in various civil cases in which
the SDNY the Southern District of New York has argued
that the release of those Epstein files could quote reasonably
be expected to interfere with a potentially.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
I've never seen prosecutors so worried about the interests of
a convicted felon. I eat Julane Maxwell. And this goes
back to before Bondie. The promise that these documents would
be released and that any co conspirator would be prosecutor
goes all the way back to Attorney General William Barr.
Speaker 6 (06:33):
This case will continue on against anyone who was complicit
with Epstein. Any co conspirators should not rest easy.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Yeah, that's my friends at CBS, And apparently all of
the allergic co conspirators are in fact resting easy tonight
because apparently the files are not going to be released.
I've never seen anything like it, and all my years
of investigating and prosecuting, let's just remind everyone what this
(07:08):
case is about. Listen to Virginia Jiffry, one of the
five individuals who allegedly committed suicide connected to the Epstein case.
Speaker 3 (07:18):
You said, take off your clothes.
Speaker 7 (07:20):
I had these little girl undies on, like little hearts
on them, I remember, and they were laughing at that
because they liked that the younger you look, the better
it is. It turned into it turned very sexual, and
it was abused straight away from both of them. I
had been a runaway and I had been abused before.
(07:40):
So to have this, you know, ability to get educated
and do something with my life, I thought I was
turning around.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
That's for my friends at Miami Harold and ITV News
and Lifetime Dylan Howard, That's what this case is all about.
The trafficking and exploitation of what we now believed to
be thousands of little girls. Now, why on God's green
Earth would we not want to release files about the
(08:07):
desecration and the victimization of little girls entirely correct?
Speaker 5 (08:12):
Nancy, at the very heart of This lies a very
deep and disturbing question. If Jeffrey Epstein was operating a
child's sex ring, was he doing it for his own
sexual proclivities or was he doing it for a perhaps
far more nefarious cause. And I think the answer lies there.
As you pointed out, there are dozens of individuals whom
(08:34):
have been linked to Jeffrey Epstein, but their names never
been revealed as part of this so called client list. Now,
something else that Virginia Duffrey said, of course, she committed
suicide earlier this year, was left in a diary that
she wrote, and she said that she used to be
(08:54):
filmed by Epstein's hidden cameras. And what we've learned is
that Epstein's various properties dotted throughout the United States and
his so called Orgy Island, had cameras in every room.
They fed back into a central computer room where a
classic blackmail and honeytrap operation was being run. That according
(09:20):
to various sources whom I've spoken to over the course
of the last decade.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
And your point is that those videos exist and they.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
Have not been released.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
And speaking of video, now rearing its ugly head is
the accusation that the jail video has been edited from
the night of Epstein's death. His own brother refuses to
call it a suicide.
Speaker 8 (09:51):
Listen to this challenging ag Bondi's claim of one minute
of Epstein prison video is missing due to a daily reset.
Wired reports the video was cut together in Adobe Premiere
pro from two video files. If true, this contradicts the
Justice Department claimed that footage was raw. Metadata from the
raw Epstein prison video shows approximately two minutes and fifty
(10:13):
three seconds were removed from one of two stitched together clips,
and the cut starts right at the missing minute.
Speaker 9 (10:24):
Jeffrey Epstein, is it true, sir, that you have what's
been described as an egg shaped.
Speaker 10 (10:37):
Form?
Speaker 11 (10:38):
Vague in definite and I'm going to give you the
first one in, mister Peuterman that these types of questions
are not only argumented, but directly in a manner to
embarrass mister Epstein. If you continue with this type of question,
I will join the deposition.
Speaker 9 (10:52):
Immediately, sir. According to the Police Department's probable cause affidavit,
one witness described your is oval shaped and claim when
it was thick towards the bottom but was thin and
small towards the head portion and called it egg shaped.
Those are not my words.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
I apologize Jeffrey Epstein's deposition that we got our mints on. Now,
who in the world would have seen his penis and
be able to describe it in such elaborate detail. It's
referred to in police documents as a witness, which, of
course that witness.
Speaker 3 (11:32):
Is a victim.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Who else would be speaking to police to describe Epstein's genitalia.
That would be one document in the many, many thousands
of documents that we are being denied. Now, if there's
nothing in the files, why aren't they being released? BONDI
(11:57):
promised they would be released, yet now abrupt about face.
Much of the suspicion of the government at this juncture
has to relate to videos, videos specifically taken in the
homes of Epstein around the world, flight logs where he
(12:18):
would apparently faery celebrities, millionaires, and more, back and forth
to his so called Lolita Island where underage girls perform
sex acts. But in my mind, I'm concerned more so
about the video from behind jailhouse walls the night Epstein died. Now,
(12:46):
keep in mind there are five suicides connected to the
Epstein investigation. Who are they number one, obviously Epstein number two,
his French counterpart, the French Epstein who was accused and
behind bars on supplying under age girls.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
Who else, Virginia's You're Free?
Speaker 2 (13:12):
And two other Epstein victims, all who could have testified.
So there's a spate of suicides connected to the Epstein case.
Like in Russia, whenever someone speaks out, they end up
jumping off of a balcony or they're seriously poisoned. And
(13:34):
we talk about Russia. There are five suicides connected to
the Epstein case. How much more does the government expect
us to believe? And I'm not a conspiracy theorist. I've
been on the side of law enforcement since they murdered
my fiance decades ago.
Speaker 3 (13:57):
But this is clearly wrong. Let's talk about that jailhouse video.
Speaker 8 (14:01):
Listen in a deep dive into the metadata embedded in
the video presented to the American people as quote. Raw
Wired published analysis indicating the file was assembled from at
least two different source cliffs saved multiple times over a
period of more than three hours on May twenty third,
twenty twenty five. The file was then created at four
forty eight pm and last modified at eight sixteen PM
(14:24):
the same day and uploaded to the Justice Department's website,
where the edited clip is presented as raw footage.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
Dave matt Crime Stories investigative reporter who has poured through
countless documents and interviews. Dave Matc We first heard that
there was a glitch in the video recording system where
Epstein was housed behind bars.
Speaker 3 (14:48):
There were a lot of glitches that.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
Night, weren't there, Dave mac Two guards on duty in
view of Epstein. He could see them, and they could
see him. They didn't have to watch the surveillance video.
Both of them either fell asleep or went online shopping
at the time he committed suicide. But it's not just
(15:13):
one minute. There's not just one minute missing from the
jail house video, is there?
Speaker 12 (15:20):
Dave Mac correct Nancy that one minute that Attorney General
Bondi has been popping about the reset of the video
at eleven fifty eight fifty eight, saying that was because
it was a nineteen ninety nine system. Well, that might
be explainable if that was the only problem here. But
(15:41):
in total, two minutes and fifty three seconds of video
appears to have been manipulated and is missing. They're able
to go in and look at these computer programs and
how they're used. They can tell when you make a
cut in the video, and when you join two separate
pieces together. They can look see from your keyboard strokes
(16:02):
everything that's been done to the point where they're able
to see how this piece of video was cut, how
it was been saved. Another piece is cut and saved,
and then the two pieces are brought together. The problem
is when you do all that and then present it
as supposed raw footage.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
And it was absolutely titled raw footage, raw footage which
means unedited. But you could see the jumps as we
call them in this business, the jumps video.
Speaker 3 (16:31):
Is spliced together. I mean, I'm not even an expert
in that. I just know a little bit about it.
But I happen to have an expert with me right now.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
Todd Shipley is joining US digital cyber crime expert, former
detective sergeant with the Reno Police, twenty five years in
elle law enforcement and author surviving cyber attack, securing social
media and protecting your home, Author of investigating Internet crimes.
It goes on and on and on. His expertise is
(17:01):
this helped me out?
Speaker 3 (17:03):
Shipley?
Speaker 13 (17:03):
Well, I think like everybody s already said, these are
not the law videos. I've looked at the both of
the videos that they provided for download, and needed video
is the original video. They both have been edited. Now
does that mean it's not the real video. No, but
they compiled both of the videos that they allowed for
release and edited them using commercial tools. So it's clear
(17:29):
that the state in the United States government did not
provide us with the raw video that they promised.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
The disturbing aspect is that number one, the video has
been edited of that night.
Speaker 3 (17:43):
That's the most disturbing aspect.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
But number two that it was released to us titled
raw video.
Speaker 3 (17:51):
A lot of excuses have been made about.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
The glitch, but we are now detecting between two and
three minutes missing from the jail house video. Now, if
you look at that video, you see that only visible
is the elevator and stairwell leading onto that particular cell block.
(18:18):
Doctor Dwayne Hendrix joining me, former Associate Warden in MDC,
former Senior Warden, US Department of Justice. It goes on
and on and on. Author, who are you see it?
Say it sees it? Doctor Hendrix?
Speaker 3 (18:33):
Where's the video?
Speaker 2 (18:36):
I see the video of the elevator and the stairwell
that would indicate anyone coming in.
Speaker 3 (18:41):
Or off the cell block.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
But what about the people already on the cell block,
the inmate neighbors and others on the cell block.
Speaker 3 (18:51):
Where's the video.
Speaker 14 (18:52):
Well that They should have various angles in that special
housing unit to show pretty much all the doors within
that unit. Each each institution is mandated to record at
least fifteen days prior anything that goes on in that unit.
So when the investigator show up, showed up the after
(19:13):
Action team, they should have been able to see all
the footage from the prior fifteen days on that special
housing unit. Now, in terms of the branch, I.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
Hear you talking about the fifteen days prior to Epstein's death.
I'm talking about that, not that's all I want. All
I'm seeing is a door in the elevator. What about
the other inmates? Hendrix, where's the you alluded to other angles.
Speaker 14 (19:44):
They should have been recording and the staff and facilities,
those communication technicians. If there were any issues with those cameras,
they that should have been they should have been aware
of that. Now when the after Action team came, I
think the After Action team came within a few after
mister Epstein's death. That would have been something that would
have been talked about immediately and right away. So I
(20:08):
would beg to think in an after action import from
the incident of his death or his apparent suicide, that
would have been something that would have been definitely a
major part of that investigation. So that's where that information
will come from.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
Joining me now is Joseph Scott Morgan. He is Professor
forensics Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet,
and he is a star of a hit podcast, Body
Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan.
Speaker 3 (20:47):
Jo Scott, thank you for being with us.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
Don't you find it a tiny bit of coincidence that,
according to experts I put on the stand, it takes
a human between two and three minutes to die of
asphyxiation or less or less than two to three minutes,
and the glitch in the video.
Speaker 3 (21:08):
Is about three minutes. Doesn't that bother you?
Speaker 15 (21:10):
Of course it does, and i'd I've worked diks in
jails over the course of my career in Atlanta and
New Orleans, and one of the things that we talk
about when we are investigating disks within correctional facilities, is
who observed them, When was the last time they were
seeing what are the points of observation relative to this,
(21:32):
Because this is what it breaks down to, is that
the government at this point in time is the caretaker
of these individuals. They have assumed that role and they
did not have eyes on this individual during this period
of time. There has to be door to door accountability
for every second. And from a death investigation perspective, this
(21:54):
should be a no brainer. This should be something that
is so easy to walk through. But as it turned out,
Nancy that arguably this is one of the most controversial
death investigations of this current century that we're in right now,
and it should be something that's very very simple.
Speaker 8 (22:10):
Information has not been released about the inmates and sells
adjacent to Epstein. In the days leading up to his death.
There were twelve to fourteen inmates near Epstein, but no
information about who the inmates were, when the inmates were
placed in the cells near Epstein, how long the individuals
had been in jail, when were they moved, and where
did they go. Mark Epstein says one of the inmates
(22:31):
had been in the cell area for a time prior
to Epstein's arrest and subsequent attainment, and another died after
Epstein's death. No information is available about the other ten
to twelve inmates in the area when Epstein died.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
US Attorney General Pam Bondy insisting there's nothing to see here,
there's no client lists. Where now not releasing the files? Okay, Bondy,
you want to tell me that this.
Speaker 3 (22:55):
Name wasn't in the files.
Speaker 16 (22:58):
Listen, I don't believe it's a picture of me in
London because when I go out to when I go
out in London, I wear a suit and a tie.
Speaker 10 (23:06):
That's me.
Speaker 16 (23:06):
But whether that's my hand or whether that's the position,
but I don't. I have simply no recollection. The photograph
is taken upstairs, and I don't think I ever went upstairs.
Speaker 17 (23:21):
In Galln's house.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
But you can't even spit it out, sweating profusely shifting this.
Speaker 3 (23:27):
Jerry's lying. You want to tell me that the name
of the number.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
Of Prince Andrew of Wales, that one is not in
those files. I would bet everything I have that his
name is in his files. And if his name is
in the files, who else is in the files?
Speaker 3 (23:50):
The files were not seeing because BONDI lied.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
That was my our friend's over at BBC News and
there's more watch this train wreck.
Speaker 17 (23:59):
And I've said consistently and frequently that we never had
any sort of sexual contact whatever.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
Joining me now a veteran trial attorney, former felony prosecutor
out of the Atlanta jurisdiction, Daryl Cohen, Darryl Cohen, if
you or I had withheld information in a case, a
felony case, we would be disbarred, We would be censured.
Speaker 3 (24:32):
Daryl Cohen.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
Of course, you know in every case the defense argues,
oh we didn't get this, Oh we didn't get that.
Speaker 3 (24:39):
This is on a biblical scale. Cohen Nancy.
Speaker 10 (24:43):
First of all, my philosophy of life and trial strategy
is you have nothing to hide, that hide nothing, So
the question becomes why is it being hidden? In terms
of the victims, I understand withholding their names.
Speaker 18 (25:00):
As you have pointed out on the show, and many
people have pointed out, there have been five homicides, five
self deaths, people have committed suicide.
Speaker 10 (25:12):
If these victims come out, if her name, whoever she
may be, she may find that her life is not
only ruined from before, but ruined for the rest of
her life. So I understand that, but there is a
way of explaining that, not hiding all of the evidence.
Not suddenly two different videos minus a minute minus two minutes.
(25:37):
It makes no sense. And so if you want people
to have conspiracy theories, hide it. Continue to hide it,
and the theories will expand, expand and expand. So what
we need to have is transparency. I've heard the word,
but the word has to be followed. Let the public
(25:59):
know as much as you can. And if you don't
let the public know why this person is not named,
then you've got a problem. But let them know. These
were young girls. These were girls whose lives have forever
been changed, and if their name comes out, it may
be even worse.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
In addition to alleged client lists, and again it may
not be a proverbial little black book.
Speaker 3 (26:24):
It could be.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
Names, phone calls, memos, emails, travelogs, video surveillance at Epstein's
various homes and getaways to reveal or create a so
called client list. I don't expect the FEDS to open
up a file and go, oh, here's three hundred names,
this must be the client list.
Speaker 3 (26:46):
It's not that easy.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
That's why we've got about eleven thousand documents that need
to be released.
Speaker 3 (26:53):
They're not.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
There's so many disturbing facts about this. Not only the
fact that many people, including Epstein's own brother, who does
not have a pecuniary or money interest in the outcome,
insist that this was not a suicide of Epstein, but
there are five five suicides in all. Straight Back out
(27:16):
to Dylan Howard, joining US investigative journalist. He is the
author of Epstein Dead Men Tell No Tales. Dylan, again,
I want to thank you for being with us. You
have researched this so heavily. Five dead bodies, and they
all what a cowenkidink commit suicide before they can testify.
Speaker 3 (27:39):
Wow, indeed, now detail please.
Speaker 5 (27:42):
Earlier this year we saw the death of Virginia Geoffrey,
who is perhaps the most notable of Jeffrey Epstein's victims
by virtue of the fact that she alleged Prince Andrew
was one who raped her. But significantly, there was another
death in custody, this time on the other side of
the Atlantic in Paris, a gentleman by the name of
(28:03):
John Luke Brenell, who was also accused of similar pinous
crimes like Jeffrey Epstein. Now here's the rub that makes
this particularly interesting. Jean Luke Brenell was the co founder
and CEO of a number of modeling agencies. Modeling agencies,
of course, are known for their use of young women
(28:26):
and underage women for major campaigns. Now Brunell was found
dead by suicide inside his Parisian jail. But this also
opened up an entire other can of worms. And last
week in the US Senate we heard that Jeffrey Epstein
trafficked not only human beings, but more than one billion
(28:50):
dollars across various countries. We don't know how we amassed
a fortune, an individual with little to know financial expertise,
how we amassed such a fortune. And guess what, Nancy,
He funded the modeling operations of John Luke Brennell in Paris.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
I mean Dylan Howard joining us Dylan for Epstein's day
job where he amassed millions and millions and millions of dollars.
Speaker 3 (29:17):
He basically had one client.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
He was like a wealth advisor, you know, trying down
the street to Wells Fargo and they'll have a wealth advisor,
you know, to tell you what to do with your.
Speaker 3 (29:26):
Children's college fund blah blah blah. That's what he did.
He had one client, true, a rich client.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
But there's no way in hubl that he got all
that money from wealth advising one client.
Speaker 3 (29:40):
I mean, did they think we all just fill off
the turnip truck because we didn't?
Speaker 5 (29:44):
Oh the DEMI, where.
Speaker 3 (29:45):
Did all that money come from?
Speaker 2 (29:47):
And I want to talk to you about Jean Luke Breunell.
All right, he died behind.
Speaker 3 (29:52):
Bars, just as you said.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
But the circumstances around his death have not been made public,
right they have not?
Speaker 5 (30:01):
They have not? Why there are theories out there that
his death was similar to that of Epstein. And one
thing that needs to be explored not only is this
alleged cover up of the tape, it is also how
was Jeffrey Epstein able to be given the means to
(30:23):
be able to commit suicide if that's what he did
behind bars in New York City? Because the reality is, well.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
You're about to pass a brick if you get my understanding.
When Joe Scott Morgan explains to you why he a
death investigator with over one thousand death scenes under his belt,
says this is not a suicide.
Speaker 3 (30:43):
But back to.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
Brunei Brunell, the French Epstein, as he has been called.
Speaker 3 (30:49):
Jean Luke Brunell. Why do I care about him?
Speaker 2 (30:52):
Because he is a freak, was a frequent companion of Epstein's,
and he, like Epstein, was detained at an airport because
of a US launched investigation into Epstein. So what do
(31:12):
you think he would tell authorities to save his own skin,
tell authorities about Epstein, about Epstein's clients. But he never
got to do that because he ended up dead and
no one will tell us why. So what happens over
in a Parisian jail cell actually matters in this case,
(31:35):
Dylan Howard. So we've got Jean Luke Brennell, but there is,
of course Epstein. There is Virginia Geoffrey, who is sitting
on a boatload of money from her Prince Andrew's settlement,
has a beautiful mansion, and then suddenly, after she wins,
she kills herself. Then we have Caroline on Giannao, an
(32:01):
Epstein victim, and leap sky Patrick another Epstein victim. Could
they have testified to who their clients were? But we'll
never know because they're all dead, Dylan.
Speaker 5 (32:15):
That's entirely correct, Nancy but that's not to say that
the death of a number of these people that were
alleged victims of Jeffrey Epstein were indeed nefarious. What we
do know about Virginia Jewfree is that she was going
through a very difficult time as a result of being
catapulted at a young age, at the tender teenage years
(32:36):
of her life, to be catapulted into this scandal. So
I'm not a subscriber that Virginia Jewffree was off, if
you like, But what I can tell you is my
own knowledge from having spoken to a number of victims
of Epstein. These young girls that have matured in life
have gone on to live scared and paranoid lives, feeling
(33:00):
like and in some instances, knowing that they have been followed,
them pointing the blame back at people like Epstein and Maxwell,
who they believe terrorized them throughout the course of their
criminal trials, all with one pursuit to zip them up,
to keep them quiet, to frighten them from testifying, and
(33:23):
to ensure that potentially people like Maxwell and Epstein were
able to potentially secure their own futures.
Speaker 1 (33:37):
Crime stories with Nancy Grief.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
Joining me now is a renowned forensic psychologist, TV radio
trauma expert and consultant. It's Karen Stork at Karenstork dot com. Karen,
thank you for being with us. Jumping off of what
Dylan Howard just said, as if these victims hadn't been
through for Pete SAgs afraid has photos, yet people still
(34:03):
claims she's a liar. Right now, the bodies are piling
up and the government refuses to release the files.
Speaker 3 (34:16):
This is rubbing salt in the wounds of the victims.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
But also I would find it very scary that when
people speak out, they are alambasted in public, they meet misfortune.
Speaker 19 (34:28):
These were girls who were under age. Their brains were
not developed. You don't develop to your in your twenties,
and their lives are crushed. They're terrified. They see people dying.
They have not been able in many, many instances. I
even know one of them. They don't have normal lives.
This changes everything, the picture of your future, and so
(34:53):
it's awful. It's just terrible that this continues and that
we don't get to the bottom of what's going on.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
It's not just about a client list, a little black
book or videos.
Speaker 3 (35:06):
It's about a potential murder. Yes of Epstein.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
You may not care about his life, but don't you
care about the truth. Don't you want to know what
really happened and what happened to the other four people
connected to this case? You all committed suicide. Well, take
a listen to doctor Michael Boden.
Speaker 20 (35:30):
There were fractures of the left, the right thyroid cartilage,
and the left hyoid bone. I have never seen three
fractures like this in a suicidal hanging. Sometimes there's a
fracture of the higher bone or a fracture of the
thyroid cartilage. Going over over one thousand jail hangings suicides
(35:55):
in the New York City State prisons over the past
forty to fifty years, no one had three fractures.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
I have questioned doctor Michael Boden on many occasions, and
he is truly brilliant.
Speaker 3 (36:10):
Joining me now.
Speaker 2 (36:12):
Is Joseph Scott Morgan, death investigator, professor of forensics, Jacksonville
State University, author and star of Body Bags That Joe
Scott Morgan hit Podcast All That Aside. He has investigated
over one thousand deaths, be the suicide, homicide, accidental, natural causes,
(36:36):
all of them. Everything in the book he's investigated it. Okay,
Joe Scott again, thank you for being with us. I
need you and I need you. Now explain what Biden's
talking about.
Speaker 15 (36:51):
Okay, before we get to what he said about the
internal findings. It's very important, Nancy, that we understand the
external findings on Epstein's body. When you have a hanging, okay,
you begin to think about the body being supported. Right,
So we have a ligature here. We're talking about a
hanging where an individual is supported. You've got a point
(37:12):
of contact here, and you get a feature on the neck.
With hangings, that's called tintinge n ting, not like car windows,
but like a pup tent. The actual furrows go up
behind the ears, Nancy, that doesn't exist with Epstein. It
goes parallel to the shoulders. If you look at the
(37:33):
ligature mark around his neck, and this is the external thing,
you'll see this kind of dry, a braided area that
runs parallel to his neck. Listen to a person when
this happened. There were many of us that saw those
images saying, this doesn't look like a typical hanging. Okay,
how in the hell do you explain that? Where does
that come from? That's not something that you normally see.
(37:54):
Here we have the hyoid, it's fractured. That's the greater
horn Nancy. That does happen with homicidal strangulations. Over the
course of my career in Nancy, I've had one case
that I recall that was not a homicide, where I
had a fractured highwoid, and that was a car accident
with an old car where guy fell off of an
(38:17):
abutment thirty three stories hit his neck on there. You
have to have direct pressure and then to think about
that that's going to be generated by this cloth that's
on the floor. The deeper the furrow, the narrow the cord.
They're trying to sell us this idea that this was
in fact the strips of material that are torn up
(38:39):
in this pigsty of a cell that this guy was
living in. I don't see how you can make sense
of it. THEO investigators, Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, just
not hold on.
Speaker 2 (38:49):
You mentioned the disarray in Epstein's cell. Doctor Dwayne Hendricks
is joining us. He is the expert former Associate Warden MDC. Brooklyn,
the former c your Warden US Department of Justice. This
is not allowed, doctor Hendrix. I've been in so many jails, penitentiaries,
gimvy jails, you name it, halfway houses, blah blah blah.
(39:10):
I can get on. That's not allowed in a jail cell.
That is not allowed for many reasons. Succinctly explain why.
Speaker 14 (39:21):
One for sanitary reasons and safety reasons. I mean they
ripped clothes to make clothes lines.
Speaker 2 (39:28):
Yes, I hate to be doctor Hendrix. I like you,
but that's not why that is not allowed. Because we
don't want to have a messy inmate. Eh what no
safety is because it's a danger it is.
Speaker 14 (39:44):
You're right, it's safety and security. And when someone walks
up to that cell and looks through that that little
small window and that shoe cell with should have told
him to get take that stuff down, give me those
extra seats, give me those extra clothes, and get this stuff.
Speaker 20 (39:59):
Out to sell.
Speaker 14 (40:00):
There is no way that self should like.
Speaker 2 (40:04):
A teenage girl's nasty dormitory.
Speaker 3 (40:07):
Put the picture back up, Hendrix.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
Don't you know how many inmates, how many would want
to tear that sheet up and get a warden like
you around the net with it.
Speaker 3 (40:20):
That's why that is not allowed.
Speaker 2 (40:23):
And I have been in so many jails again, Hendrix,
I can't even count them that.
Speaker 3 (40:29):
I've never seen anything like that in my life. Why, Hendrix, Why.
Speaker 14 (40:36):
This is obviously what we're saying is a huge neglect
in basic correctional fundamentals, and that's running a safe, humane
and clean environment. And there's no way that this individual
should have had all those extra sheets, been able to
accumulate all this extra material to put himself in a
(40:57):
last position to commit suicide. So, in a nutshell of
that is the reason why they should have happened.
Speaker 1 (41:03):
Or be murdered.
Speaker 2 (41:05):
Again, I don't know who his inmate neighbor was. We
haven't been given those files. They're in the files that
were going to be really so, Joe Scott Morgan, what's
the single most probative fact regarding Epstein's body?
Speaker 15 (41:20):
I think I think probably this level of trauma that
you're seeing that is just inconsistent with what doctor Mike
had said, Nancy, that this is not consistent with a
suicidal event. This is consistent with what you see relative
to a homicidal event. And it's not just that greater
horn that's fractured there on the hyoid, Nancy, we also
(41:43):
have bilateral cartilage fractures that are on either side. That
requires a tremendous amount of pressure, either through a ligature
that's directly applied or through throddling where the hands are used,
and that is snap. You're not going to get this
kind of dynamic.
Speaker 2 (41:59):
And Dylan Howard again guys joining us author of Epstein
dead men tale, no tales, and it is incredible by
the way, I've had read every word of it.
Speaker 3 (42:08):
Dylan Howard, correct me if I'm wrong.
Speaker 2 (42:10):
You've got the death of Epstein, his own brother says
it was a murder. He does not have a money
interest in that. You've got the death of Epstein, which
is shrouded in mystery. You've got the death of Jean
Luke Brunnell, which is also shrouded in mystery, which is
the French Epstein that worked with Epstein. And then the
other three. You've got two of them accidental over Josephs.
(42:35):
And then you've got your phrase. So we're never going
to know the truth if they don't release those files,
are we, Dylan Well?
Speaker 5 (42:43):
The FBI do O J Meno said Nancy that no
further disclosure would be appropriate or warranted. I couldn't think
of anything more perilous than that statement. For transparency's sake
and for closure on this matter. If there is ever
to be closure, the full FBI and Department of Justice
(43:05):
report needs to be released so that the American public
can weigh in and make its own judgment, because we
are not trusting of our government institutions to have told
us the truth about this scandal from day one.
Speaker 3 (43:20):
Bondy, Yeah, you release the files.
Speaker 2 (43:25):
How can you put your head on your pillow at
night after all those promises? We remember heroes, heroes in
America and all over the world, that are not afraid
to speak out, are not afraid to tell the truth
and demand the truth.
Speaker 3 (43:48):
Bondy, you have a choice.
Speaker 2 (43:50):
You can make excuses to the public, or you can
finally man up and be a hero. We wait as
justice unfolds. Thank you to our guests, but especially to
you for being with us tonight. Nancy Gray signing off,
God willing, I'll see you tomorrow night and unto end
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, Breaking news tonight.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Message to Bondie, Pam Bondie, the US Attorney General release
the files, the Jeffrey Epstein files in case you need clarification, Bondie, you.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
Promised, now deliver. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
I want to thank you for being with us, joining
me now an all star panel to make sense of
what we are learning. Tonight, Dylan Howard is with US
investigative journalist and author of Epstein Dead Man, Tell No Tales.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
But first I'd like you to listen to this.
Speaker 4 (00:43):
What you're going to see hopefully tomorrow is a lot
of flight logs, a lot of names, a lot of information.
But it's pretty sick what.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
That man did.
Speaker 4 (00:55):
A source had told me where the documents were being
kept southern to strict of New York's shock. So we
got them all by, hopefully all of them Friday at
eight am, thousands of pages of documents. I have the
FBI going through them. Director of Patel is going to
get us a detailed report as to why the FBI
withheld all of those documents.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
From my friends at Fox twenty five, Dylan Howard, that
was Pam Bondy, the US Attorney General, promising, and I've
got so many clips of her promising out the Ying Yang,
promising the release of the Epstein files, and at that
point blaming the hold up on the Southern District of
New York, which I accepted. I accepted that at the
(01:38):
time I had no reason to disbelieve her or to
believe a nefarious intent on anyone's mind, anyone including the
Southern District. But now, really, she just referred to thousands
and thousands and thousands of pages of files, and now
we're being told there's nothing in there. Were not releasing them.
(02:00):
If there's nothing in there, why not release them? Mister Howard, Well,
this is.
Speaker 5 (02:04):
A cover up of epic proportions, and not just because
of the national discord over the last week. That is
President Donald Trump's alleged ties to Jeffrey Epstein's No, we've
known that for decades, and we've known that they had
a friendship leading up to Epstein's two thousand and five
investigation in Florida. Now, Trump obviously campaigned on a desire
(02:28):
for transparency. This is the antithesis of it. The reality
was that what was released in that so called phase
one of epstein files being dumped on the American public
was nothing new. What we know is that there are
tens of thousands of documents related to Epstein that the
(02:49):
Southern District of New York, a division of the Department
of Justice, and the FBI are refusing to release. How
do we know that because one of the news outlets
that I own, Radar Online, first sued in twenty seventeen
the FBI for a full and frank disclosure of these
(03:12):
documents related to that two thousand and five case in Florida.
At the time, Nancy, we were stonewalled. Believe it or not,
the Southern District of New York invoked Jeffrey Epstein's privacy
rights over those of the dozens of victims at the
center of that case in Florida. Then Epstein dies. Was
(03:35):
it suicide or was it murder? Still, the Southern District
of New York wouldn't release the files. Fast forward to
last year and a US judge in the Southern District
hands down a verdict against the news outlet, Radar Online
the news. The verdict there was that the information containing
(03:57):
those files could jeopardize any potential appeal of Epstein's accomplice
Gislaying Maxwell. Well, that is now under appeal, and what
is evident in now recently filed appeal is that there
are more than eleven thousand documents that have not been
released to the public around this child sex trafficking ring.
(04:19):
And one must ask themselves at this hour is the
rights of Jeffrey Epstein and Gislaying Maxwell being protected over
those of what the DOJ has now said are more
than one thousand victims of the Jeffrey Epstein sex trafficking ring.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
I'm very curious as to why the documents are not
being disclosed now. Dylan Howard, you suggest a nefarious relationship
between Trump and Epstein. Many celebrities take photos that later
they wish they hadn't taken. Photos alone. Do not decay
(05:01):
wrongdoing on behalf of Trump. But I will tell you
what is a smoking gun to me? We were told
the documents would be released. Now we're being told there's
nothing to see. If there's nothing to see, why not
release them? Who if anyone is being no.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
Naty, I'm not go ahead, please.
Speaker 5 (05:26):
No Nazi. I'm not suggesting an afarious link between Trump
and Epstein. What I'm saying is that there has been
a search for an afarious link between Trump and Epstein.
But I think that it obscures somewhat the real crux
of the matter here, and that is that there is
significant intelligence in the hands of the Department of Justice
and the FBI that has not been released to the
(05:48):
American people. And we know that through various motions that
have been put forward in various civil cases in which
the SDNY the Southern District of New York has argued
that the release of those Epstein files could quote reasonably
be expected to interfere with a potentially.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
I've never seen prosecutors so worried about the interests of
a convicted felon. I eat Julane Maxwell. And this goes
back to before Bondie. The promise that these documents would
be released and that any co conspirator would be prosecutor
goes all the way back to Attorney General William Barr.
Speaker 6 (06:33):
This case will continue on against anyone who was complicit
with Epstein. Any co conspirators should not rest easy.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Yeah, that's my friends at CBS, And apparently all of
the allergic co conspirators are in fact resting easy tonight
because apparently the files are not going to be released.
I've never seen anything like it, and all my years
of investigating and prosecuting, let's just remind everyone what this
(07:08):
case is about. Listen to Virginia Jiffry, one of the
five individuals who allegedly committed suicide connected to the Epstein case.
Speaker 3 (07:18):
You said, take off your clothes.
Speaker 7 (07:20):
I had these little girl undies on, like little hearts
on them, I remember, and they were laughing at that
because they liked that the younger you look, the better
it is. It turned into it turned very sexual, and
it was abused straight away from both of them. I
had been a runaway and I had been abused before.
(07:40):
So to have this, you know, ability to get educated
and do something with my life, I thought I was
turning around.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
That's for my friends at Miami Harold and ITV News
and Lifetime Dylan Howard, That's what this case is all about.
The trafficking and exploitation of what we now believed to
be thousands of little girls. Now, why on God's green
Earth would we not want to release files about the
(08:07):
desecration and the victimization of little girls entirely correct?
Speaker 5 (08:12):
Nancy, at the very heart of This lies a very
deep and disturbing question. If Jeffrey Epstein was operating a
child's sex ring, was he doing it for his own
sexual proclivities or was he doing it for a perhaps
far more nefarious cause. And I think the answer lies there.
As you pointed out, there are dozens of individuals whom
(08:34):
have been linked to Jeffrey Epstein, but their names never
been revealed as part of this so called client list. Now,
something else that Virginia Duffrey said, of course, she committed
suicide earlier this year, was left in a diary that
she wrote, and she said that she used to be
(08:54):
filmed by Epstein's hidden cameras. And what we've learned is
that Epstein's various properties dotted throughout the United States and
his so called Orgy Island, had cameras in every room.
They fed back into a central computer room where a
classic blackmail and honeytrap operation was being run. That according
(09:20):
to various sources whom I've spoken to over the course
of the last decade.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
And your point is that those videos exist and they.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
Have not been released.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
And speaking of video, now rearing its ugly head is
the accusation that the jail video has been edited from
the night of Epstein's death. His own brother refuses to
call it a suicide.
Speaker 8 (09:51):
Listen to this challenging ag Bondi's claim of one minute
of Epstein prison video is missing due to a daily reset.
Wired reports the video was cut together in Adobe Premiere
pro from two video files. If true, this contradicts the
Justice Department claimed that footage was raw. Metadata from the
raw Epstein prison video shows approximately two minutes and fifty
(10:13):
three seconds were removed from one of two stitched together clips,
and the cut starts right at the missing minute.
Speaker 9 (10:24):
Jeffrey Epstein, is it true, sir, that you have what's
been described as an egg shaped.
Speaker 10 (10:37):
Form?
Speaker 11 (10:38):
Vague in definite and I'm going to give you the
first one in, mister Peuterman that these types of questions
are not only argumented, but directly in a manner to
embarrass mister Epstein. If you continue with this type of question,
I will join the deposition.
Speaker 9 (10:52):
Immediately, sir. According to the Police Department's probable cause affidavit,
one witness described your is oval shaped and claim when
it was thick towards the bottom but was thin and
small towards the head portion and called it egg shaped.
Those are not my words.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
I apologize Jeffrey Epstein's deposition that we got our mints on. Now,
who in the world would have seen his penis and
be able to describe it in such elaborate detail. It's
referred to in police documents as a witness, which, of
course that witness.
Speaker 3 (11:32):
Is a victim.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Who else would be speaking to police to describe Epstein's genitalia.
That would be one document in the many, many thousands
of documents that we are being denied. Now, if there's
nothing in the files, why aren't they being released? BONDI
(11:57):
promised they would be released, yet now abrupt about face.
Much of the suspicion of the government at this juncture
has to relate to videos, videos specifically taken in the
homes of Epstein around the world, flight logs where he
(12:18):
would apparently faery celebrities, millionaires, and more, back and forth
to his so called Lolita Island where underage girls perform
sex acts. But in my mind, I'm concerned more so
about the video from behind jailhouse walls the night Epstein died. Now,
(12:46):
keep in mind there are five suicides connected to the
Epstein investigation. Who are they number one, obviously Epstein number two,
his French counterpart, the French Epstein who was accused and
behind bars on supplying under age girls.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
Who else, Virginia's You're Free?
Speaker 2 (13:12):
And two other Epstein victims, all who could have testified.
So there's a spate of suicides connected to the Epstein case.
Like in Russia, whenever someone speaks out, they end up
jumping off of a balcony or they're seriously poisoned. And
(13:34):
we talk about Russia. There are five suicides connected to
the Epstein case. How much more does the government expect
us to believe? And I'm not a conspiracy theorist. I've
been on the side of law enforcement since they murdered
my fiance decades ago.
Speaker 3 (13:57):
But this is clearly wrong. Let's talk about that jailhouse video.
Speaker 8 (14:01):
Listen in a deep dive into the metadata embedded in
the video presented to the American people as quote. Raw
Wired published analysis indicating the file was assembled from at
least two different source cliffs saved multiple times over a
period of more than three hours on May twenty third,
twenty twenty five. The file was then created at four
forty eight pm and last modified at eight sixteen PM
(14:24):
the same day and uploaded to the Justice Department's website,
where the edited clip is presented as raw footage.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
Dave matt Crime Stories investigative reporter who has poured through
countless documents and interviews. Dave Matc We first heard that
there was a glitch in the video recording system where
Epstein was housed behind bars.
Speaker 3 (14:48):
There were a lot of glitches that.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
Night, weren't there, Dave mac Two guards on duty in
view of Epstein. He could see them, and they could
see him. They didn't have to watch the surveillance video.
Both of them either fell asleep or went online shopping
at the time he committed suicide. But it's not just
(15:13):
one minute. There's not just one minute missing from the
jail house video, is there?
Speaker 12 (15:20):
Dave Mac correct Nancy that one minute that Attorney General
Bondi has been popping about the reset of the video
at eleven fifty eight fifty eight, saying that was because
it was a nineteen ninety nine system. Well, that might
be explainable if that was the only problem here. But
(15:41):
in total, two minutes and fifty three seconds of video
appears to have been manipulated and is missing. They're able
to go in and look at these computer programs and
how they're used. They can tell when you make a
cut in the video, and when you join two separate
pieces together. They can look see from your keyboard strokes
(16:02):
everything that's been done to the point where they're able
to see how this piece of video was cut, how
it was been saved. Another piece is cut and saved,
and then the two pieces are brought together. The problem
is when you do all that and then present it
as supposed raw footage.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
And it was absolutely titled raw footage, raw footage which
means unedited. But you could see the jumps as we
call them in this business, the jumps video.
Speaker 3 (16:31):
Is spliced together. I mean, I'm not even an expert
in that. I just know a little bit about it.
But I happen to have an expert with me right now.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
Todd Shipley is joining US digital cyber crime expert, former
detective sergeant with the Reno Police, twenty five years in
elle law enforcement and author surviving cyber attack, securing social
media and protecting your home, Author of investigating Internet crimes.
It goes on and on and on. His expertise is
(17:01):
this helped me out?
Speaker 3 (17:03):
Shipley?
Speaker 13 (17:03):
Well, I think like everybody s already said, these are
not the law videos. I've looked at the both of
the videos that they provided for download, and needed video
is the original video. They both have been edited. Now
does that mean it's not the real video. No, but
they compiled both of the videos that they allowed for
release and edited them using commercial tools. So it's clear
(17:29):
that the state in the United States government did not
provide us with the raw video that they promised.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
The disturbing aspect is that number one, the video has
been edited of that night.
Speaker 3 (17:43):
That's the most disturbing aspect.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
But number two that it was released to us titled
raw video.
Speaker 3 (17:51):
A lot of excuses have been made about.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
The glitch, but we are now detecting between two and
three minutes missing from the jail house video. Now, if
you look at that video, you see that only visible
is the elevator and stairwell leading onto that particular cell block.
(18:18):
Doctor Dwayne Hendrix joining me, former Associate Warden in MDC,
former Senior Warden, US Department of Justice. It goes on
and on and on. Author, who are you see it?
Say it sees it? Doctor Hendrix?
Speaker 3 (18:33):
Where's the video?
Speaker 2 (18:36):
I see the video of the elevator and the stairwell
that would indicate anyone coming in.
Speaker 3 (18:41):
Or off the cell block.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
But what about the people already on the cell block,
the inmate neighbors and others on the cell block.
Speaker 3 (18:51):
Where's the video.
Speaker 14 (18:52):
Well that They should have various angles in that special
housing unit to show pretty much all the doors within
that unit. Each each institution is mandated to record at
least fifteen days prior anything that goes on in that unit.
So when the investigator show up, showed up the after
(19:13):
Action team, they should have been able to see all
the footage from the prior fifteen days on that special
housing unit. Now, in terms of the branch, I.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
Hear you talking about the fifteen days prior to Epstein's death.
I'm talking about that, not that's all I want. All
I'm seeing is a door in the elevator. What about
the other inmates? Hendrix, where's the you alluded to other angles.
Speaker 14 (19:44):
They should have been recording and the staff and facilities,
those communication technicians. If there were any issues with those cameras,
they that should have been they should have been aware
of that. Now when the after Action team came, I
think the After Action team came within a few after
mister Epstein's death. That would have been something that would
have been talked about immediately and right away. So I
(20:08):
would beg to think in an after action import from
the incident of his death or his apparent suicide, that
would have been something that would have been definitely a
major part of that investigation. So that's where that information
will come from.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
Joining me now is Joseph Scott Morgan. He is Professor
forensics Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet,
and he is a star of a hit podcast, Body
Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan.
Speaker 3 (20:47):
Jo Scott, thank you for being with us.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
Don't you find it a tiny bit of coincidence that,
according to experts I put on the stand, it takes
a human between two and three minutes to die of
asphyxiation or less or less than two to three minutes,
and the glitch in the video.
Speaker 3 (21:08):
Is about three minutes. Doesn't that bother you?
Speaker 15 (21:10):
Of course it does, and i'd I've worked diks in
jails over the course of my career in Atlanta and
New Orleans, and one of the things that we talk
about when we are investigating disks within correctional facilities, is
who observed them, When was the last time they were
seeing what are the points of observation relative to this,
(21:32):
Because this is what it breaks down to, is that
the government at this point in time is the caretaker
of these individuals. They have assumed that role and they
did not have eyes on this individual during this period
of time. There has to be door to door accountability
for every second. And from a death investigation perspective, this
(21:54):
should be a no brainer. This should be something that
is so easy to walk through. But as it turned out,
Nancy that arguably this is one of the most controversial
death investigations of this current century that we're in right now,
and it should be something that's very very simple.
Speaker 8 (22:10):
Information has not been released about the inmates and sells
adjacent to Epstein. In the days leading up to his death.
There were twelve to fourteen inmates near Epstein, but no
information about who the inmates were, when the inmates were
placed in the cells near Epstein, how long the individuals
had been in jail, when were they moved, and where
did they go. Mark Epstein says one of the inmates
(22:31):
had been in the cell area for a time prior
to Epstein's arrest and subsequent attainment, and another died after
Epstein's death. No information is available about the other ten
to twelve inmates in the area when Epstein died.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
US Attorney General Pam Bondy insisting there's nothing to see here,
there's no client lists. Where now not releasing the files? Okay, Bondy,
you want to tell me that this.
Speaker 3 (22:55):
Name wasn't in the files.
Speaker 16 (22:58):
Listen, I don't believe it's a picture of me in
London because when I go out to when I go
out in London, I wear a suit and a tie.
Speaker 10 (23:06):
That's me.
Speaker 16 (23:06):
But whether that's my hand or whether that's the position,
but I don't. I have simply no recollection. The photograph
is taken upstairs, and I don't think I ever went upstairs.
Speaker 17 (23:21):
In Galln's house.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
But you can't even spit it out, sweating profusely shifting this.
Speaker 3 (23:27):
Jerry's lying. You want to tell me that the name
of the number.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
Of Prince Andrew of Wales, that one is not in
those files. I would bet everything I have that his
name is in his files. And if his name is
in the files, who else is in the files?
Speaker 3 (23:50):
The files were not seeing because BONDI lied.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
That was my our friend's over at BBC News and
there's more watch this train wreck.
Speaker 17 (23:59):
And I've said consistently and frequently that we never had
any sort of sexual contact whatever.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
Joining me now a veteran trial attorney, former felony prosecutor
out of the Atlanta jurisdiction, Daryl Cohen, Darryl Cohen, if
you or I had withheld information in a case, a
felony case, we would be disbarred, We would be censured.
Speaker 3 (24:32):
Daryl Cohen.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
Of course, you know in every case the defense argues,
oh we didn't get this, Oh we didn't get that.
Speaker 3 (24:39):
This is on a biblical scale. Cohen Nancy.
Speaker 10 (24:43):
First of all, my philosophy of life and trial strategy
is you have nothing to hide, that hide nothing, So
the question becomes why is it being hidden? In terms
of the victims, I understand withholding their names.
Speaker 18 (25:00):
As you have pointed out on the show, and many
people have pointed out, there have been five homicides, five
self deaths, people have committed suicide.
Speaker 10 (25:12):
If these victims come out, if her name, whoever she
may be, she may find that her life is not
only ruined from before, but ruined for the rest of
her life. So I understand that, but there is a
way of explaining that, not hiding all of the evidence.
Not suddenly two different videos minus a minute minus two minutes.
(25:37):
It makes no sense. And so if you want people
to have conspiracy theories, hide it. Continue to hide it,
and the theories will expand, expand and expand. So what
we need to have is transparency. I've heard the word,
but the word has to be followed. Let the public
(25:59):
know as much as you can. And if you don't
let the public know why this person is not named,
then you've got a problem. But let them know. These
were young girls. These were girls whose lives have forever
been changed, and if their name comes out, it may
be even worse.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
In addition to alleged client lists, and again it may
not be a proverbial little black book.
Speaker 3 (26:24):
It could be.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
Names, phone calls, memos, emails, travelogs, video surveillance at Epstein's
various homes and getaways to reveal or create a so
called client list. I don't expect the FEDS to open
up a file and go, oh, here's three hundred names,
this must be the client list.
Speaker 3 (26:46):
It's not that easy.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
That's why we've got about eleven thousand documents that need
to be released.
Speaker 3 (26:53):
They're not.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
There's so many disturbing facts about this. Not only the
fact that many people, including Epstein's own brother, who does
not have a pecuniary or money interest in the outcome,
insist that this was not a suicide of Epstein, but
there are five five suicides in all. Straight Back out
(27:16):
to Dylan Howard, joining US investigative journalist. He is the
author of Epstein Dead Men Tell No Tales. Dylan, again,
I want to thank you for being with us. You
have researched this so heavily. Five dead bodies, and they
all what a cowenkidink commit suicide before they can testify.
Speaker 3 (27:39):
Wow, indeed, now detail please.
Speaker 5 (27:42):
Earlier this year we saw the death of Virginia Geoffrey,
who is perhaps the most notable of Jeffrey Epstein's victims
by virtue of the fact that she alleged Prince Andrew
was one who raped her. But significantly, there was another
death in custody, this time on the other side of
the Atlantic in Paris, a gentleman by the name of
(28:03):
John Luke Brenell, who was also accused of similar pinous
crimes like Jeffrey Epstein. Now here's the rub that makes
this particularly interesting. Jean Luke Brenell was the co founder
and CEO of a number of modeling agencies. Modeling agencies,
of course, are known for their use of young women
(28:26):
and underage women for major campaigns. Now Brunell was found
dead by suicide inside his Parisian jail. But this also
opened up an entire other can of worms. And last
week in the US Senate we heard that Jeffrey Epstein
trafficked not only human beings, but more than one billion
(28:50):
dollars across various countries. We don't know how we amassed
a fortune, an individual with little to know financial expertise,
how we amassed such a fortune. And guess what, Nancy,
He funded the modeling operations of John Luke Brennell in Paris.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
I mean Dylan Howard joining us Dylan for Epstein's day
job where he amassed millions and millions and millions of dollars.
Speaker 3 (29:17):
He basically had one client.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
He was like a wealth advisor, you know, trying down
the street to Wells Fargo and they'll have a wealth advisor,
you know, to tell you what to do with your.
Speaker 3 (29:26):
Children's college fund blah blah blah. That's what he did.
He had one client, true, a rich client.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
But there's no way in hubl that he got all
that money from wealth advising one client.
Speaker 3 (29:40):
I mean, did they think we all just fill off
the turnip truck because we didn't?
Speaker 5 (29:44):
Oh the DEMI, where.
Speaker 3 (29:45):
Did all that money come from?
Speaker 2 (29:47):
And I want to talk to you about Jean Luke Breunell.
All right, he died behind.
Speaker 3 (29:52):
Bars, just as you said.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
But the circumstances around his death have not been made public,
right they have not?
Speaker 5 (30:01):
They have not? Why there are theories out there that
his death was similar to that of Epstein. And one
thing that needs to be explored not only is this
alleged cover up of the tape, it is also how
was Jeffrey Epstein able to be given the means to
(30:23):
be able to commit suicide if that's what he did
behind bars in New York City? Because the reality is, well.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
You're about to pass a brick if you get my understanding.
When Joe Scott Morgan explains to you why he a
death investigator with over one thousand death scenes under his belt,
says this is not a suicide.
Speaker 3 (30:43):
But back to.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
Brunei Brunell, the French Epstein, as he has been called.
Speaker 3 (30:49):
Jean Luke Brunell. Why do I care about him?
Speaker 2 (30:52):
Because he is a freak, was a frequent companion of Epstein's,
and he, like Epstein, was detained at an airport because
of a US launched investigation into Epstein. So what do
(31:12):
you think he would tell authorities to save his own skin,
tell authorities about Epstein, about Epstein's clients. But he never
got to do that because he ended up dead and
no one will tell us why. So what happens over
in a Parisian jail cell actually matters in this case,
(31:35):
Dylan Howard. So we've got Jean Luke Brennell, but there is,
of course Epstein. There is Virginia Geoffrey, who is sitting
on a boatload of money from her Prince Andrew's settlement,
has a beautiful mansion, and then suddenly, after she wins,
she kills herself. Then we have Caroline on Giannao, an
(32:01):
Epstein victim, and leap sky Patrick another Epstein victim. Could
they have testified to who their clients were? But we'll
never know because they're all dead, Dylan.
Speaker 5 (32:15):
That's entirely correct, Nancy but that's not to say that
the death of a number of these people that were
alleged victims of Jeffrey Epstein were indeed nefarious. What we
do know about Virginia Jewfree is that she was going
through a very difficult time as a result of being
catapulted at a young age, at the tender teenage years
(32:36):
of her life, to be catapulted into this scandal. So
I'm not a subscriber that Virginia Jewffree was off, if
you like, But what I can tell you is my
own knowledge from having spoken to a number of victims
of Epstein. These young girls that have matured in life
have gone on to live scared and paranoid lives, feeling
(33:00):
like and in some instances, knowing that they have been followed,
them pointing the blame back at people like Epstein and Maxwell,
who they believe terrorized them throughout the course of their
criminal trials, all with one pursuit to zip them up,
to keep them quiet, to frighten them from testifying, and
(33:23):
to ensure that potentially people like Maxwell and Epstein were
able to potentially secure their own futures.
Speaker 1 (33:37):
Crime stories with Nancy Grief.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
Joining me now is a renowned forensic psychologist, TV radio
trauma expert and consultant. It's Karen Stork at Karenstork dot com. Karen,
thank you for being with us. Jumping off of what
Dylan Howard just said, as if these victims hadn't been
through for Pete SAgs afraid has photos, yet people still
(34:03):
claims she's a liar. Right now, the bodies are piling
up and the government refuses to release the files.
Speaker 3 (34:16):
This is rubbing salt in the wounds of the victims.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
But also I would find it very scary that when
people speak out, they are alambasted in public, they meet misfortune.
Speaker 19 (34:28):
These were girls who were under age. Their brains were
not developed. You don't develop to your in your twenties,
and their lives are crushed. They're terrified. They see people dying.
They have not been able in many, many instances. I
even know one of them. They don't have normal lives.
This changes everything, the picture of your future, and so
(34:53):
it's awful. It's just terrible that this continues and that
we don't get to the bottom of what's going on.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
It's not just about a client list, a little black
book or videos.
Speaker 3 (35:06):
It's about a potential murder. Yes of Epstein.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
You may not care about his life, but don't you
care about the truth. Don't you want to know what
really happened and what happened to the other four people
connected to this case? You all committed suicide. Well, take
a listen to doctor Michael Boden.
Speaker 20 (35:30):
There were fractures of the left, the right thyroid cartilage,
and the left hyoid bone. I have never seen three
fractures like this in a suicidal hanging. Sometimes there's a
fracture of the higher bone or a fracture of the
thyroid cartilage. Going over over one thousand jail hangings suicides
(35:55):
in the New York City State prisons over the past
forty to fifty years, no one had three fractures.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
I have questioned doctor Michael Boden on many occasions, and
he is truly brilliant.
Speaker 3 (36:10):
Joining me now.
Speaker 2 (36:12):
Is Joseph Scott Morgan, death investigator, professor of forensics, Jacksonville
State University, author and star of Body Bags That Joe
Scott Morgan hit Podcast All That Aside. He has investigated
over one thousand deaths, be the suicide, homicide, accidental, natural causes,
(36:36):
all of them. Everything in the book he's investigated it. Okay,
Joe Scott again, thank you for being with us. I
need you and I need you. Now explain what Biden's
talking about.
Speaker 15 (36:51):
Okay, before we get to what he said about the
internal findings. It's very important, Nancy, that we understand the
external findings on Epstein's body. When you have a hanging, okay,
you begin to think about the body being supported. Right,
So we have a ligature here. We're talking about a
hanging where an individual is supported. You've got a point
(37:12):
of contact here, and you get a feature on the neck.
With hangings, that's called tintinge n ting, not like car windows,
but like a pup tent. The actual furrows go up
behind the ears, Nancy, that doesn't exist with Epstein. It
goes parallel to the shoulders. If you look at the
(37:33):
ligature mark around his neck, and this is the external thing,
you'll see this kind of dry, a braided area that
runs parallel to his neck. Listen to a person when
this happened. There were many of us that saw those
images saying, this doesn't look like a typical hanging. Okay,
how in the hell do you explain that? Where does
that come from? That's not something that you normally see.
(37:54):
Here we have the hyoid, it's fractured. That's the greater
horn Nancy. That does happen with homicidal strangulations. Over the
course of my career in Nancy, I've had one case
that I recall that was not a homicide, where I
had a fractured highwoid, and that was a car accident
with an old car where guy fell off of an
(38:17):
abutment thirty three stories hit his neck on there. You
have to have direct pressure and then to think about
that that's going to be generated by this cloth that's
on the floor. The deeper the furrow, the narrow the cord.
They're trying to sell us this idea that this was
in fact the strips of material that are torn up
(38:39):
in this pigsty of a cell that this guy was
living in. I don't see how you can make sense
of it. THEO investigators, Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, just
not hold on.
Speaker 2 (38:49):
You mentioned the disarray in Epstein's cell. Doctor Dwayne Hendricks
is joining us. He is the expert former Associate Warden MDC. Brooklyn,
the former c your Warden US Department of Justice. This
is not allowed, doctor Hendrix. I've been in so many jails, penitentiaries,
gimvy jails, you name it, halfway houses, blah blah blah.
(39:10):
I can get on. That's not allowed in a jail cell.
That is not allowed for many reasons. Succinctly explain why.
Speaker 14 (39:21):
One for sanitary reasons and safety reasons. I mean they
ripped clothes to make clothes lines.
Speaker 2 (39:28):
Yes, I hate to be doctor Hendrix. I like you,
but that's not why that is not allowed. Because we
don't want to have a messy inmate. Eh what no
safety is because it's a danger it is.
Speaker 14 (39:44):
You're right, it's safety and security. And when someone walks
up to that cell and looks through that that little
small window and that shoe cell with should have told
him to get take that stuff down, give me those
extra seats, give me those extra clothes, and get this stuff.
Speaker 20 (39:59):
Out to sell.
Speaker 14 (40:00):
There is no way that self should like.
Speaker 2 (40:04):
A teenage girl's nasty dormitory.
Speaker 3 (40:07):
Put the picture back up, Hendrix.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
Don't you know how many inmates, how many would want
to tear that sheet up and get a warden like
you around the net with it.
Speaker 3 (40:20):
That's why that is not allowed.
Speaker 2 (40:23):
And I have been in so many jails again, Hendrix,
I can't even count them that.
Speaker 3 (40:29):
I've never seen anything like that in my life. Why, Hendrix, Why.
Speaker 14 (40:36):
This is obviously what we're saying is a huge neglect
in basic correctional fundamentals, and that's running a safe, humane
and clean environment. And there's no way that this individual
should have had all those extra sheets, been able to
accumulate all this extra material to put himself in a
(40:57):
last position to commit suicide. So, in a nutshell of
that is the reason why they should have happened.
Speaker 1 (41:03):
Or be murdered.
Speaker 2 (41:05):
Again, I don't know who his inmate neighbor was. We
haven't been given those files. They're in the files that
were going to be really so, Joe Scott Morgan, what's
the single most probative fact regarding Epstein's body?
Speaker 15 (41:20):
I think I think probably this level of trauma that
you're seeing that is just inconsistent with what doctor Mike
had said, Nancy, that this is not consistent with a
suicidal event. This is consistent with what you see relative
to a homicidal event. And it's not just that greater
horn that's fractured there on the hyoid, Nancy, we also
(41:43):
have bilateral cartilage fractures that are on either side. That
requires a tremendous amount of pressure, either through a ligature
that's directly applied or through throddling where the hands are used,
and that is snap. You're not going to get this
kind of dynamic.
Speaker 2 (41:59):
And Dylan Howard again guys joining us author of Epstein
dead men tale, no tales, and it is incredible by
the way, I've had read every word of it.
Speaker 3 (42:08):
Dylan Howard, correct me if I'm wrong.
Speaker 2 (42:10):
You've got the death of Epstein, his own brother says
it was a murder. He does not have a money
interest in that. You've got the death of Epstein, which
is shrouded in mystery. You've got the death of Jean
Luke Brunnell, which is also shrouded in mystery, which is
the French Epstein that worked with Epstein. And then the
other three. You've got two of them accidental over Josephs.
(42:35):
And then you've got your phrase. So we're never going
to know the truth if they don't release those files,
are we, Dylan Well?
Speaker 5 (42:43):
The FBI do O J Meno said Nancy that no
further disclosure would be appropriate or warranted. I couldn't think
of anything more perilous than that statement. For transparency's sake
and for closure on this matter. If there is ever
to be closure, the full FBI and Department of Justice
(43:05):
report needs to be released so that the American public
can weigh in and make its own judgment, because we
are not trusting of our government institutions to have told
us the truth about this scandal from day one.
Speaker 3 (43:20):
Bondy, Yeah, you release the files.
Speaker 2 (43:25):
How can you put your head on your pillow at
night after all those promises? We remember heroes, heroes in
America and all over the world, that are not afraid
to speak out, are not afraid to tell the truth
and demand the truth.
Speaker 3 (43:48):
Bondy, you have a choice.
Speaker 2 (43:50):
You can make excuses to the public, or you can
finally man up and be a hero. We wait as
justice unfolds. Thank you to our guests, but especially to
you for being with us tonight. Nancy Gray signing off,
God willing, I'll see you tomorrow night and unto end
Host
Nancy Grace
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