September 27, 2025 • 36 mins
The infamous Tallahassee murder of Mike Williams is being retold in a new documentary series on Hulu.
This four-part docuseries, "Mr. & Mrs. Murder," looks at the "twisted story" of two "close-knit couples" involved in the murder that took 17 years to solve.
When police first found Mike Williams' clothes in a Florida lake, they speculated he had been eaten by alligators, but a deadly plot involving a cheating wife and a $1.75 million insurance policy eventually floated to the top of their suspicions.
Nancy Grace explores Denise Williams' murder conspiracy with experts including Atlanta juvenile judge & lawyer Ashley Willcott, forensics expert Karen Smith, forensic psychiatrist Dr. Daniel Bober, and Crime Stories reporter John Lemley.
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. It took fifteen years of
his mother begging for justice, literally standing at intersections with
a poster stating, my son was murdered. Please help me.
(00:23):
She called state reps, she called congressmen, she called senators,
She called everybody she could. She contacted local law enforcement.
She begged, she pleaded, she showed up. Nobody would listen
to her. Her son disappeared. Okay, it took the mother
(00:45):
fighting all those years for a real investigation to go down.
Then her son's body was fished out of a local lake.
It was determined to be a quote accidental really b s.
(01:06):
Because of Mike Williams's mother, Sheryl, a road to justice
was paved. Denise Williams, Mike Williams's wife, and her lover,
Brian Winchester aka Mike Williams's best friend, murdered him in
(01:32):
the last days. Wait for it, the entire horrific saga
unfolds on of course, a made for TV murder series. Yeah,
she gets her own series on Hulu called Mister and
(01:56):
Missus Murder. Cosh talk about glorifying murder. Okay, you know
what this is what really happened, don't fall for some
glamorous actress and actor playing the part of the killers.
They are nothing but satan and Bill's a up. This
(02:17):
is what really happened Segment two.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Alton Renu and David Barnett were among the first law
enforcement officers to get a call about a missing duck hunter.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
What we thought had happened is that he possibly fell
out of the boat or capsized.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Early the next morning, there was a break. Mike's boat
was found. On board were some decoys and his shotgun,
but no sign of Mike himself.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
What happened? Out duck hunting husband Mike Williams goes missing
near Tallahassee, his body believed to be in the water.
But oh at a tangled web we weave when first
we practiced to deceive Nancy Grace here Crime Stories, thank
you for being with us. Straight out to John Limley,
Crime online dot Com investigative reporter John Limley, how did
(03:08):
this guy, an experienced hunter, fall overboard? I mean, what
does buddy say about how he fell overboard?
Speaker 4 (03:18):
It was a complicated story, to say the very least.
As Denise Williams begins the tale to police on the
morning of December sixteenth, her husband woke up early, leaving
their house on Centennial Oak Circle well before dawn. Bowt
in tow to go duck hunting at Lake Seminole. This
(03:41):
is a large reservoir just west northwest of Tallahassee. The
couple actually had plans to celebrate their sixth wedding anniversary
that night in Apple at Chicola at noon.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
Denise, stop right there, John Limley, investigative reporter. Or have
you ever been to Appalachicola?
Speaker 5 (04:02):
I have not.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
Actually, it is some of the prettiest beach I've ever
seen in my life. Nobody seems to know about it.
And in Appalachicola, I'm telling you, you can get the
best oysters in shrimp at this little place called Boss Oyster.
And I have a very strong suspicion they may have
(04:24):
been going there to celebrate. I mean, Ashley Wilcott. This
is on the Panhandle and it is beautiful. It's really
the salt life. Everybody has a boat, whether it's a
little skiff or a big, beautiful expensive thing. Everybody has
(04:44):
a boat, even if it's tiny, and they are out
on the water. They are fishing. They are living the
salt life. I'm telling you Ashley, you know about the Panhandle, right.
Speaker 6 (04:57):
Yeah, I've been and I agree with you. It's absolutely gorgeous.
It's a whole different attitude because it is the soul life.
They are on the boat, they're enjoying life. They're out
in the beautiful weather, beautiful beaches, beautiful fishing.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
Let me tell you a little story, Ashley. My dad who
you know, don't tell my husband, but I still say
he was my soulmate. It is from a little city
called well, it's not really a city called hay Cody. Yes,
it's really a place hay Cody. I think that's an
(05:28):
Indian name. And it's near to give you a perspective,
it is near Mobile. Okay, it's near Sampson, which is
near Mobile. That's how you have to find it. So
long story short, it's the Panhandle, Alabama, Florida Panhandle. And
he grew up crabbing and fishing, and I remember going
(05:52):
to these exact spots as a little girl, and my
sister and I were supposed to watch the crabs not
get out out of the net, and of course they would,
and we'd run away from the crabs. Okay, but the
beaches are so deserted you could get them right back in.
That's where they were. They were all along the Panhandle,
(06:14):
but they were on Lake Seminole. All right, sorry, John Lanley,
I digress, Go ahead, back to the store.
Speaker 4 (06:21):
Absolutely well, it was at noon that same day that
Denise calls her dad to let him know that Mike
had not come back. That's when her father hopped in
his car drove with Mike's best friend, Brian Winchester, to
the areas of the lake where they knew Mike Williams
(06:42):
frequently went duck hunting. They were able to find his night.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
Wait a minute, Wait a minute, the wife goes with
the friend to look for him. It wasn't the friend
with him when he fell in the water or.
Speaker 4 (06:54):
No, Well, this is later in the day that Brian
Winchester goes with them with the dad where they knew
that he went duck hutting, and that's when they found
the nineteen ninety.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
Five You're so not answering my question. I'm asking you,
John Limley. Did the victim in this case go with
his longtime high school friend, Brian will Winchester duck hunting?
And absolutely why were they? Okay, they were duck hunting
out on a boat. Correct, So you go out into
the water to scare the ducks up out of stumps
(07:31):
that are are swampy area? Is that why they were
out on the water shooting guns?
Speaker 4 (07:36):
Right, usually go into an area that is camouflaged by
a lot of vegetation.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
Do you know that, John Lemley, You've never really struck
me as a hunter or out in a swamp.
Speaker 4 (07:47):
I try to research, well.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Okay, so you don't know firsthand? No, I do not, okay, Bober,
doctor Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist. I don't really see you
as the type out in a uh uh no, not
out in a boat and a swamp with a gun
shooting at ducks. Yes, no, maybe doctor boat okay, boating
(08:10):
or hunting, it's probably not me, okay, all right, So
I'm down to Karen Smith. Karen Smith, you actually seem
the most likely to go duck counting of this bunch.
Does that make sense to you what they're saying?
Speaker 7 (08:21):
I have no idea. I have never duck hunted either.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
Okay, all right, So it's on me, all right, Actually,
I guess you know there's a lot of stumps and
growth and trees out in the middle of swampy area.
So I guess the ducks are hiding there and you
scare them up and shoot them. That's my guess. Okay,
(08:43):
I didn't see a gun or touch a gun until
I was a prosecutor, contrary to everyone's beliefs about the
south Land. So they're out in a boat. Let me
make it get back to you, Limbley. They're out in
a boat. They're shooting ducks. And this is what I
don't understand. The high school friend, I mean they're grown now,
(09:05):
is out fishing with I mean shooting with him. Why
are you telling me Limley that they go back to
where they think he was? Doesn't he know where he was?
Speaker 4 (09:14):
Well, that's where the stories begin to get really tangled
and confusing, because one story is being told by Denise,
another by Brian. He comes back into the city and
is now helping the dad look for his best friend,
and so the timelines very clearly do not match up.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
Well, I don't see a problem so far. I don't
even know what you're talking about, John Lemley, because you're
saying the friend Brian Winchester, goes out with Mike. They
go duck hunting out in Lake Seminole. He falls overboard,
the friend comes back, and then the wife gets involved.
I don't see the inconsistency with that. Am I missing
(09:59):
something because that's all I've heard from you so far.
Speaker 4 (10:01):
Well, the story at that point was that he didn't
know fully what happened to his friend Mike. They were
looking for for what happened to him.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
He's sitting in the boat and then he disappeared. You
know what, That reminds me of Ashley Willcot. That reminds
me one of my favorite shows, Bewitched. He actually just disappear,
But that was a TV show, Ashley. People don't just disappear.
Speaker 6 (10:30):
Yeah. See, you can tell already the story's a little flimsy.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
And he said some stinks.
Speaker 6 (10:36):
Who fell overboard and then he was gone.
Speaker 4 (10:39):
It stinks.
Speaker 6 (10:40):
That's exactly right.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
Listen to our friend at CBS forty eight hours, Mike
Slushians are talking with Alton Ary, Me and David Arnie.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
We're done a grid search, very slow, meticulous grid search,
back and forth over.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
The search area, and what began is a search and
rescue soon turned into a search for a body. Cadaver
dogs were brought in while teams scoured the murky bottom
of Lake Seminole in a gruesome search for Mike's body
that was high intensity and low tech.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
That was that was actually one of the poles.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
And all you do is put it in the water
and see if you feel anything.
Speaker 3 (11:21):
If it's a log, it's kind of a thump, kind
of a hard thump. If it would been her body,
you hit it, it's kind of like a pillo.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Did you feel something ever on the bottom that felt
like a never never?
Speaker 7 (11:38):
Maybe he just a man in his family or something
like that.
Speaker 3 (11:41):
That was the strongest scenario of everything that we had.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
It was did you believe that?
Speaker 5 (11:47):
I mean, did you think that was possible? I thought
that was possibility.
Speaker 4 (11:50):
What did you think?
Speaker 8 (11:51):
We knew Mike could not run off. I mean, he
loved his family and he adored his daughter, adored her.
So Mike did not run off. This was not some
elaborate ruse.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
Soon there was another explanation offered for why Mike's body
could not be found, that he had been snatched by
an alligator.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
What happened to husband and father Mike Williams He goes
out duck hunting and never comes back. Was it an
elaborate ruse to get away from responsibility. Was he held
by his high school friend Brian Winchester longtime best friend
from high school? Or is he a fatality? Was his
(12:37):
body at the bottom of Lake Seminole being stored by
an alligator dismembered Joining me Ashley Wilcott, judge lawyer. You
can find her at Ashley Wilcott dot com. Karen Smith,
renowned forensics expert, doctor Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist, and joining
me right now Crime online dot Com investigative reporter John Limley.
(13:00):
So John the friend Brian Winchester. I would have hooked
him up to a polygraph pronto to figure out if
he helped Mike Williams, you know, take a powder crap
out on his wife and family. So the wife is
in hysterics, Denise Williams. You can't find Mike Williams anywhere,
not his jacket, not anything belonging to him. Brian Winchester
(13:21):
is the last one with him out in the middle
of Lake Seminole on a boat. And then you get
the final decision by the police. Will and alligators dismembered
him and is storing him for when he gets the
munchies in about six months. So that's what we know, So,
John Lumley, what happens next? Did any part of the
(13:43):
body ever surface or was there a sighting of Mike Williams.
Speaker 4 (13:48):
There was no body parts or no sightings at all. However,
within days parts of his clothing started showing up along
the shore in different places. The initial search was handled
in a way that they were viewing it as a
(14:10):
missing hunter, and the agency handles those cases in a
completely different way, focusing on search and rescue or recovery.
So in their minds, they're looking for a living person.
But when these pieces of clothing began popping up, that's
when investigators began to think they're dealing with something else.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
Well, not everybody bought the alligator story. Take a listen
to Telehouse Democrat reporter Jennifer Portsmouth reporting on Mike's mother.
Speaker 9 (14:45):
She never ever believed that her son was in the lake.
Speaker 5 (14:48):
Not from day one. Not from day one did she
think of that.
Speaker 9 (14:51):
She didn't know. All she knew was that her son
was not in that lake. She just knew it, like
a mono, something just deep inside of her, and she
was absolutely committed to finding out what happened to him.
Speaker 10 (15:07):
It's never out of my head. Where is this child?
He maybe did, but he's not in that lake. And
if somebody did hurt my child, I want them found out.
I want them hunt.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
Karen Smith, forensics expert. If they have the boat, what
if anything could that prove?
Speaker 7 (15:25):
Well, it could prove a lot of different things. Nancy.
Did the boat have water in it? Was it completely dry?
You know these small boats they tipped, they're going to
have water in it also. But it's clothing. You know,
alligators at that theory pans out, they're not delicate eaters.
Where their rips were their tears? Was the clothing indicative
of a gator attack? Was there any other forensic evidence
(15:47):
within that clothing? You know, the boat itself, was his wallet,
there was his information? There was there other indicators. Was
his gun still laying there? Was his gun missing? If
he was duck hunting? All of these things are going
to play into a timeline, and it's going to play
into what really happened.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
So as one piece of clothing after the next starts
floating up to the surface, everyone's looking for Mike Williams.
Did he just leave town or did an alligator devour him?
How did he get in the water to start with
to John Limley, what can you tell me about his background?
For instance, how did he meet his wife Denise?
Speaker 4 (16:23):
Well, Denise and Mike were actually high school sweethearts. It's
that great old story that we hear so often and reality,
you know, most of the time it's not true. In
this case, it is. They met at North Florida Christian
School in Tallahassee, and most details from their early lives
to the couple's college days at Florida are interchangeable. Both
(16:45):
were active in extracurriculars through high school. Mike was a
promising football player, voted best Personality. His wife, then known
by the maiden name Denise Merrill, was a cheerleader for
the North Florida Eagles. Former classmates and even then current
friends of Mike say he was very well respected, then
(17:09):
at private school, then in business, where he excelled in both.
It wasn't unlike Mike to step into the role of
a protective older brother and to look over younger friends
and family members. Mike and Denise graduated in nineteen eighty eight,
(17:30):
alongside classmates Brian Winchester and his future bride, Kathy Aldridge.
The two couples remained close as they each married in
nineteen ninety four and had children.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
So those coach couples became very best friends. They're all
they go way way back. Now. As a matter of fact,
William's the victim. As a matter of fact, Mike Williams
and Brian Winchester, hey gone duck hunting that day and
then somehow he disappears. Everybody has to the lake together
(18:04):
with their boat to start searching, and they search in
the dark hours and hours and hours until Winchester and
his dad stumble on Williams's motorized canoe and it was
kind of uptouching the lake shore. They found his Ford
Bronco about seventy five yards away, abandoned, and that's all
(18:29):
they found. But eventually, after they searched, they found at
the very bottom of Lake Seminole, his hunting license, his jacket,
his waiters. Investigators convinced Williams was eaten by alligators. Crime
(18:51):
Stories with Nancy Grace, The brutal murder of a loving
husband and father Mike Williams is now the subject of
a brand new docuseries called Mister and Missus Murder. If
(19:15):
it had not been for Mike Williams' mother ryl. This
would never have been uncovered, and Denise Williams and Brian
Winchester would be skipping along their merry way laughing at
not only dead Mike Williams, but everybody else, including the
justice system. This is what really happened. In the weeks
(19:38):
and months that follow nobody finds them, but then Denise
the wife goes broke.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
And Scott Dungee says, now that Denise was a single mom,
money was getting tight.
Speaker 5 (19:52):
I was helping her.
Speaker 11 (19:53):
With some of the items that needed to be sold
to generate some cash until the insurance money came, and.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
There was a lot of insurance money involved. Williams had
three policies worth more than one point seventy five million dollars.
Speaker 9 (20:09):
While the search itself is still going on, while he
is still actively missing, they're still actively searching for him.
She is going and filing a claim against his life insurance.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
According to Florida law, since there was no proof Williams
had died, he would not be declared dead for five years.
Speaker 4 (20:27):
How much time did.
Speaker 5 (20:28):
It taken this case?
Speaker 1 (20:29):
It took six months.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
That's because Denise's attorney argued to a judge that the
waiters the vest and the hunting license were proof enough
that Williams dead. The judge agreed and issued a death certificate.
Cause of death accidental drowning while duck hunting on Lake Seminole.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
Straight out to John Limmley, investigative reporter with Crime online
dot Com, John Limley, the facts to me are very confusing.
Let me understand this. Did he go out originally alone
on the boat or was he with the high school friend.
Speaker 4 (21:00):
They allegedly chose December ninth as the day Winchester would
take Mike on a duck hunting trip, knock him overboard,
and stage his death as a boating mishap, But the
morning of the trip arrived and Mike called Winchester to
back out. Winchester invited Mike to go on another duck
hunting trip, but it seems no one else in Mike's
(21:21):
family knew that he was meeting Brian. So it was
in the early morning hours of December sixteenth that the
two pals launched their boat out into Lake Seminole. When
they reached a landing down from where they parked their vehicles,
Winchester got Mike to stand up, and that's when he
shoves him overboard. After that, Mike takes off his jacket,
(21:44):
takes off his waiters. Was in an absolute panic, and
Winchester says he was driving the boat, didn't know what
else to do, and then ends up shooting his best friend.
Winchester then allegedly dragged his friend's body to the shore
put him in the back of his Chevrolet Suburban. He
then pushed Mike's boat back out into the water and
(22:06):
headed back to his house, where his wife Kathy was
still asleep. Kathy, of course, knows nothing about any of this,
and Winchester says he got undressed, got back into bed,
and pretended that he.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Just woke up as usual. It's not all as it seems.
I want you to listen to high school friend Brian Winchester.
Speaker 5 (22:28):
We launched the boat. It was just like a hunting
trip was supposed to be.
Speaker 11 (22:33):
The plan that was discussed and come up with was
that he was going to be wearing waiters, and leef
was somebody falls in the water with waiters, you're.
Speaker 5 (22:47):
Going now, So we went out like we were going hunting.
Speaker 11 (23:00):
Got to the area where his waiters and jacket were found.
I got him to stand up and I pushed.
Speaker 5 (23:12):
Him into the water.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
You are hearing longtime high school friend Brian Winchester describing
breaking down crying he pushed his friend from high school
into the muddy waters of Lake Seminole Ashley Wilcott. I mean,
from the very beginning his story didn't make sense to me,
(23:35):
but to push somebody into the water. But you know what,
Ashley hold on. I want you to hear this.
Speaker 12 (23:41):
He got his jacket off and his waiters off, and
he was in a panic.
Speaker 5 (23:53):
Obviously, I was in a panic. I was dropping the.
Speaker 13 (24:02):
Boat and I didn't I didn't know what to do,
and I ended up shooting him.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
I ended up shooting him. To ash will court judge,
lawyer or at as she will caught dot com as
she will caught, it's like he didn't do it himself. Well,
I ended up. And I've seen that so many times
when defendants give statements or they're you know, stupid enough
to take the stand where they just going the gun
(24:42):
went off, No, you pull the trigger. What happened, Ashley
is he tricks his friend Mike Williams into standing up
in the boat, okay, the little skiff. When he stands up,
he pushes him in the guy can swim he's an athlete,
all right. Remember captain of the football team, Hunter Fisher.
(25:04):
The works. The guy swims to a swamp, a stump
or something in the water, and he's not dead, he's
not drowning, even with the waiters on. He gets his
jacket off, he gets his waiters off. So what does
Winchester do. He starts circling him in the boat. Can
you imagine Mike Williams clinging to a stump in the
(25:24):
middle of Lake Seminole and his best friend is circling
him in the water and finally gets close enough and
shoots him multiple times. That's what happened, Ashley.
Speaker 6 (25:35):
That's exactly what happened, Nancy, And that's horrific.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
And think about this.
Speaker 6 (25:38):
There's also testimony by Mike that he had to take
time to load his gun. So not by Mike, I
apologized by Brian Winchester. So Mike's in the.
Speaker 14 (25:46):
Water, really literally hanging.
Speaker 6 (25:49):
On to life on a tree and he has to
watch his quote unquote friend load his gun to circle
around to then shoot him.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
You know, it's to doctor Daniel Bober, forensics psychiatrist, this
is not a stranger on stranger attack. This is his
high school friend. They're grown now, they're both married with families,
and his high school friend, his best friend for twenty years,
shoots him dead. How does that happen?
Speaker 7 (26:21):
You know, Nancy, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
I don't know how he could have thought he was
going to get away with this.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
I mean, there's just a you know, there's like a lot,
It's like a trail of breadcrumbs.
Speaker 7 (26:29):
Given these connections of all these people, it just seems
silly to me that they thought the story would be
plausible at.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
All, you know, when you get right down to it, though,
doctor Bober, I've been asked so many times about motive.
The state, of course doesn't have to prove a motive
for murder, but it always boils down. Aren't money, sex,
slash love, revenge? Anger? It's it's always one of those four.
(26:55):
I mean, it's got to be one of those for
doctor Bober, agree or disagree?
Speaker 5 (26:58):
No, I totally agree.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
I think that pretty much encompasses all the motivation.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
Take a listen to our friends. At forty eight hours.
Speaker 9 (27:06):
She wrote the governor a letter every day.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
For nine years.
Speaker 8 (27:10):
She was absolutely possessed with finding this out.
Speaker 5 (27:14):
What had happened to mine and your God?
Speaker 1 (27:16):
Tells me in my honor that that childish dad I
cannot hear us looking for crime stories with Nancy Grace,
a brand new docuseries is handed over like a silver
platter after Denise Williams and her lover aka her husband's
(27:40):
best friend. Wow, some friend murder Mike all raised in
deeply Christian households. What went wrong? How long story short?
I guess what you have to do to get a
TV documentary is to murder your spend or something equally
(28:02):
as horrible. Mike disappeared after going on a duck hunting
trip Lake Seminole that's a little north of Tallahassee. When
he didn't return, a search ensued. His boat and car
were found, but not his body. Believe it or not,
(28:24):
many assumed, I wonder where this rumor started that he
had been eaten by alligators. Right blamed the alligator, but
his mother Cheryl never believed it. Now a series on
Hulu does it glorify the killer killers? This is what
(28:49):
really happened.
Speaker 7 (28:50):
This man was murdered, and they blamed it on alligators.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
For seventeen years, many a murderer has been blamed on
an alligator. But that's exactly what did not happen in
this case. As a matter of fact, what we learned
was happening is that after many many double dates together,
Brian Winchester falls in love with Mike Williams's wife, Denise Williams,
(29:18):
and on one of their double dates, they start kissing
after a discussion about six Wow, what a surprise. So
now we see it's not an alligator wanting a snack.
It's a love triangle, Ashley Wilcott.
Speaker 14 (29:33):
Absolutely love triangle. Not only that, but it comes out
they were having an affair before they before the victim
was shot in the face of murder.
Speaker 1 (29:44):
As a matter of fact, they go on and they
married John Lemley. How long after Mike Williams is shot dead?
Speaker 4 (29:51):
To the two Mary, it was just a year and
a half before they married.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
As the years dragged on, it looked like the mystery
of what happened to Mike Williams might never be solved.
If Brian and Denise knew anything about Mike's disappearance, they
weren't talking and no one could make them. By Florida law,
as long as they stayed married, neither could be forced
to testify against the other. But behind the scenes, Denise
(30:18):
and Brian's marriage was disintegrated.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
Wow, can you imagine that? So Mike Williams is gunned down,
his widow, Denise Williams, gets that life insurance policy over
a million dollars and marries the high school best friend,
Brian Winchester. You know, are you surprised, Ashley that over
as time passes, the two start hating each other, the
(30:42):
high school friend and the widow who are now married
and joined at the hip and bound together by murder.
Speaker 14 (30:48):
No, I'm not at all surprised. There is such a
concluded web as you already alluded to. Oh the tangle
web we weed and it was. There were multiple affairs
by different partners in these two marriages that led to this.
And Nancy, let me add this to your little food
for thought. There were three life insurance policies that amounted
to one point seventy five million dollars, and guests who
(31:12):
who wrote put together two of those policies? You got it?
Speaker 4 (31:16):
Brian Winchester.
Speaker 1 (31:18):
Okay, So John Lumley and investigative reporter Crime online dot Com.
The two wouldn't talk. How was the case cracked?
Speaker 4 (31:26):
Well, a story emerges of Brian actually kidnapping Denise. This
is such a bizarre twist to the story. Denise and
Brian separated in twenty twelve, reportedly due to his sex addiction.
She filed for divorce in twenty fifteen.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
So he's a killer and he has a sex addiction. Absolutely, okay,
go ahead.
Speaker 4 (31:49):
Denise tells the Leon County Sheriff's Office that on an
August afternoon, the day when the appraisal of their home
had been filed with court, she left her house to
drive to her at Florida State University. While she's on
the phone with her sister, she sees someone climb over
the back of her car, and it turned out to
(32:09):
be Brian. He takes her phone away begins yelling directions
to her. She didn't comply until he shows a gun.
She said later that he claimed that this was necessary
since she was not taking his calls and was blocking
his text messages.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
Well, and the whole time she knows he's already killed.
Once listen to Denise Williams in her own words, he's
reading and.
Speaker 5 (32:30):
I'm just like shaking and people are going to notice that.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
Denise reported her kidnapping to the Leon County Sheriff's office.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
I was like, are you planning on you know, any
both of our last day or mine?
Speaker 5 (32:43):
I'm planting on mine. And then you said I want
to kill my hest just said.
Speaker 4 (32:46):
Many times I want to kill myself.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
Brian Winchester was soon arrested and charged with the kidnapping
and aggravated assault of his wife.
Speaker 8 (32:55):
I was just kind of agreeing with whatever he was saying,
and as I know that you.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
Love, police quickly realized that the rift in Denise and
Brian's marriage presented an opportunity.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
So after she then Karen Smith goes to police saying
she's being kidnapped. I guess she had no idea that
everything she was saying was breaking the husband wife privilege.
But how can you back up her story?
Speaker 7 (33:23):
That's a really good question other than words at this point,
because they don't have forensics, they don't have the gun.
All they have is what Denise is telling police at
this point.
Speaker 1 (33:33):
So John Lumley, after she goes in on the kidnapped,
the alleged kidnap, how did they get the truth out
of her?
Speaker 4 (33:39):
Well, the case really, as you mentioned, really cracked open
with this break in their bond, the marriage bond legally
and he began to tell investigators details as well. This
is during the investigation of the kidnap and in December
(34:02):
twenty seventeen, Winchester was sentenced to twenty years in prison
for the kidnapping. Now, no mention was made of the
Williams case at Brian Winchester's sentencing. However, there was some
sort of deal that was reached that would reduce his
sentence for information in the case, specifically what happened and
(34:22):
where the.
Speaker 1 (34:22):
Well hold on. Let's go to Ashley Wilcott judge and lawyer.
Didn't he get immunity?
Speaker 14 (34:27):
He sure did, Nancy, he did get immunity, and they took.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
Life in prison off the table for the kidnapping charge.
Speaker 4 (34:34):
He got both.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
So how long is he's a sugarman? So in order
to testify against his new wife, Mike Williams widow, how
much time is he going to get?
Speaker 14 (34:44):
He gets none for killing. He got immunity, so he
gets none for killing. Now the only caveat is they said,
if there's any new evidence discovered outside of your version
of what happened, we could prosecute.
Speaker 4 (34:57):
On the new evidence.
Speaker 14 (34:58):
But he told the whole shebang, the whole story, So
I cannot imagine that happened.
Speaker 1 (35:02):
So on twenty years, we'll probably do about ten. Yes, okay, man,
you're not kidding. A kidnapping, a murder, a cold blooded
murder Denise Williams. The jury return a verdict guilty on
all counts. A TV series glamorizing a cold hearted killer
(35:29):
Mike Williams's wife. What really happened is that his best friend,
who was sleeping with his wife, takes Mike on a
trip to Lake Seminole. They take the boat to a
deep part of the lake. Winchester pushes Mike in the
water with hopes he would drown. He didn't drown, he
(35:50):
had to kill him. The two killers stated they preferred
the idea of drowning because it would quote make them
quote feel better about ourselves if there was a chance
he can make it out of it. It will be
up to God what happens, not us. It won't be murder,
it will be an accident. Really, you're trying to drag
(36:13):
God into this. Mike was an excellent swimmer, and he
removed his jacket and waiters in the water and last
onto a floating tree. Winchester loads his gun, drives over
to Mike and shoots him.
Speaker 7 (36:28):
In the head.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
Yes, that's what happened. Then these two pieces of crap Mary.
After murdering Mike, we wait as just as unfalls. Goodbye,
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. It took fifteen years of
his mother begging for justice, literally standing at intersections with
a poster stating, my son was murdered. Please help me.
(00:23):
She called state reps, she called congressmen, she called senators,
She called everybody she could. She contacted local law enforcement.
She begged, she pleaded, she showed up. Nobody would listen
to her. Her son disappeared. Okay, it took the mother
(00:45):
fighting all those years for a real investigation to go down.
Then her son's body was fished out of a local lake.
It was determined to be a quote accidental really b s.
(01:06):
Because of Mike Williams's mother, Sheryl, a road to justice
was paved. Denise Williams, Mike Williams's wife, and her lover,
Brian Winchester aka Mike Williams's best friend, murdered him in
(01:32):
the last days. Wait for it, the entire horrific saga
unfolds on of course, a made for TV murder series. Yeah,
she gets her own series on Hulu called Mister and
(01:56):
Missus Murder. Cosh talk about glorifying murder. Okay, you know
what this is what really happened, don't fall for some
glamorous actress and actor playing the part of the killers.
They are nothing but satan and Bill's a up. This
(02:17):
is what really happened Segment two.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Alton Renu and David Barnett were among the first law
enforcement officers to get a call about a missing duck hunter.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
What we thought had happened is that he possibly fell
out of the boat or capsized.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Early the next morning, there was a break. Mike's boat
was found. On board were some decoys and his shotgun,
but no sign of Mike himself.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
What happened? Out duck hunting husband Mike Williams goes missing
near Tallahassee, his body believed to be in the water.
But oh at a tangled web we weave when first
we practiced to deceive Nancy Grace here Crime Stories, thank
you for being with us. Straight out to John Limley,
Crime online dot Com investigative reporter John Limley, how did
(03:08):
this guy, an experienced hunter, fall overboard? I mean, what
does buddy say about how he fell overboard?
Speaker 4 (03:18):
It was a complicated story, to say the very least.
As Denise Williams begins the tale to police on the
morning of December sixteenth, her husband woke up early, leaving
their house on Centennial Oak Circle well before dawn. Bowt
in tow to go duck hunting at Lake Seminole. This
(03:41):
is a large reservoir just west northwest of Tallahassee. The
couple actually had plans to celebrate their sixth wedding anniversary
that night in Apple at Chicola at noon.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
Denise, stop right there, John Limley, investigative reporter. Or have
you ever been to Appalachicola?
Speaker 5 (04:02):
I have not.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
Actually, it is some of the prettiest beach I've ever
seen in my life. Nobody seems to know about it.
And in Appalachicola, I'm telling you, you can get the
best oysters in shrimp at this little place called Boss Oyster.
And I have a very strong suspicion they may have
(04:24):
been going there to celebrate. I mean, Ashley Wilcott. This
is on the Panhandle and it is beautiful. It's really
the salt life. Everybody has a boat, whether it's a
little skiff or a big, beautiful expensive thing. Everybody has
(04:44):
a boat, even if it's tiny, and they are out
on the water. They are fishing. They are living the
salt life. I'm telling you Ashley, you know about the Panhandle, right.
Speaker 6 (04:57):
Yeah, I've been and I agree with you. It's absolutely gorgeous.
It's a whole different attitude because it is the soul life.
They are on the boat, they're enjoying life. They're out
in the beautiful weather, beautiful beaches, beautiful fishing.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
Let me tell you a little story, Ashley. My dad who
you know, don't tell my husband, but I still say
he was my soulmate. It is from a little city
called well, it's not really a city called hay Cody. Yes,
it's really a place hay Cody. I think that's an
(05:28):
Indian name. And it's near to give you a perspective,
it is near Mobile. Okay, it's near Sampson, which is
near Mobile. That's how you have to find it. So
long story short, it's the Panhandle, Alabama, Florida Panhandle. And
he grew up crabbing and fishing, and I remember going
(05:52):
to these exact spots as a little girl, and my
sister and I were supposed to watch the crabs not
get out out of the net, and of course they would,
and we'd run away from the crabs. Okay, but the
beaches are so deserted you could get them right back in.
That's where they were. They were all along the Panhandle,
(06:14):
but they were on Lake Seminole. All right, sorry, John Lanley,
I digress, Go ahead, back to the store.
Speaker 4 (06:21):
Absolutely well, it was at noon that same day that
Denise calls her dad to let him know that Mike
had not come back. That's when her father hopped in
his car drove with Mike's best friend, Brian Winchester, to
the areas of the lake where they knew Mike Williams
(06:42):
frequently went duck hunting. They were able to find his night.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
Wait a minute, Wait a minute, the wife goes with
the friend to look for him. It wasn't the friend
with him when he fell in the water or.
Speaker 4 (06:54):
No, Well, this is later in the day that Brian
Winchester goes with them with the dad where they knew
that he went duck hutting, and that's when they found
the nineteen ninety.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
Five You're so not answering my question. I'm asking you,
John Limley. Did the victim in this case go with
his longtime high school friend, Brian will Winchester duck hunting?
And absolutely why were they? Okay, they were duck hunting
out on a boat. Correct, So you go out into
the water to scare the ducks up out of stumps
(07:31):
that are are swampy area? Is that why they were
out on the water shooting guns?
Speaker 4 (07:36):
Right, usually go into an area that is camouflaged by
a lot of vegetation.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
Do you know that, John Lemley, You've never really struck
me as a hunter or out in a swamp.
Speaker 4 (07:47):
I try to research, well.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Okay, so you don't know firsthand? No, I do not, okay, Bober,
doctor Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist. I don't really see you
as the type out in a uh uh no, not
out in a boat and a swamp with a gun
shooting at ducks. Yes, no, maybe doctor boat okay, boating
(08:10):
or hunting, it's probably not me, okay, all right, So
I'm down to Karen Smith. Karen Smith, you actually seem
the most likely to go duck counting of this bunch.
Does that make sense to you what they're saying?
Speaker 7 (08:21):
I have no idea. I have never duck hunted either.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
Okay, all right, So it's on me, all right, Actually,
I guess you know there's a lot of stumps and
growth and trees out in the middle of swampy area.
So I guess the ducks are hiding there and you
scare them up and shoot them. That's my guess. Okay,
(08:43):
I didn't see a gun or touch a gun until
I was a prosecutor, contrary to everyone's beliefs about the
south Land. So they're out in a boat. Let me
make it get back to you, Limbley. They're out in
a boat. They're shooting ducks. And this is what I
don't understand. The high school friend, I mean they're grown now,
(09:05):
is out fishing with I mean shooting with him. Why
are you telling me Limley that they go back to
where they think he was? Doesn't he know where he was?
Speaker 4 (09:14):
Well, that's where the stories begin to get really tangled
and confusing, because one story is being told by Denise,
another by Brian. He comes back into the city and
is now helping the dad look for his best friend,
and so the timelines very clearly do not match up.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
Well, I don't see a problem so far. I don't
even know what you're talking about, John Lemley, because you're
saying the friend Brian Winchester, goes out with Mike. They
go duck hunting out in Lake Seminole. He falls overboard,
the friend comes back, and then the wife gets involved.
I don't see the inconsistency with that. Am I missing
(09:59):
something because that's all I've heard from you so far.
Speaker 4 (10:01):
Well, the story at that point was that he didn't
know fully what happened to his friend Mike. They were
looking for for what happened to him.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
He's sitting in the boat and then he disappeared. You
know what, That reminds me of Ashley Willcot. That reminds
me one of my favorite shows, Bewitched. He actually just disappear,
But that was a TV show, Ashley. People don't just disappear.
Speaker 6 (10:30):
Yeah. See, you can tell already the story's a little flimsy.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
And he said some stinks.
Speaker 6 (10:36):
Who fell overboard and then he was gone.
Speaker 4 (10:39):
It stinks.
Speaker 6 (10:40):
That's exactly right.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
Listen to our friend at CBS forty eight hours, Mike
Slushians are talking with Alton Ary, Me and David Arnie.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
We're done a grid search, very slow, meticulous grid search,
back and forth over.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
The search area, and what began is a search and
rescue soon turned into a search for a body. Cadaver
dogs were brought in while teams scoured the murky bottom
of Lake Seminole in a gruesome search for Mike's body
that was high intensity and low tech.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
That was that was actually one of the poles.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
And all you do is put it in the water
and see if you feel anything.
Speaker 3 (11:21):
If it's a log, it's kind of a thump, kind
of a hard thump. If it would been her body,
you hit it, it's kind of like a pillo.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Did you feel something ever on the bottom that felt
like a never never?
Speaker 7 (11:38):
Maybe he just a man in his family or something
like that.
Speaker 3 (11:41):
That was the strongest scenario of everything that we had.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
It was did you believe that?
Speaker 5 (11:47):
I mean, did you think that was possible? I thought
that was possibility.
Speaker 4 (11:50):
What did you think?
Speaker 8 (11:51):
We knew Mike could not run off. I mean, he
loved his family and he adored his daughter, adored her.
So Mike did not run off. This was not some
elaborate ruse.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
Soon there was another explanation offered for why Mike's body
could not be found, that he had been snatched by
an alligator.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
What happened to husband and father Mike Williams He goes
out duck hunting and never comes back. Was it an
elaborate ruse to get away from responsibility. Was he held
by his high school friend Brian Winchester longtime best friend
from high school? Or is he a fatality? Was his
(12:37):
body at the bottom of Lake Seminole being stored by
an alligator dismembered Joining me Ashley Wilcott, judge lawyer. You
can find her at Ashley Wilcott dot com. Karen Smith,
renowned forensics expert, doctor Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist, and joining
me right now Crime online dot Com investigative reporter John Limley.
(13:00):
So John the friend Brian Winchester. I would have hooked
him up to a polygraph pronto to figure out if
he helped Mike Williams, you know, take a powder crap
out on his wife and family. So the wife is
in hysterics, Denise Williams. You can't find Mike Williams anywhere,
not his jacket, not anything belonging to him. Brian Winchester
(13:21):
is the last one with him out in the middle
of Lake Seminole on a boat. And then you get
the final decision by the police. Will and alligators dismembered
him and is storing him for when he gets the
munchies in about six months. So that's what we know, So,
John Lumley, what happens next? Did any part of the
(13:43):
body ever surface or was there a sighting of Mike Williams.
Speaker 4 (13:48):
There was no body parts or no sightings at all. However,
within days parts of his clothing started showing up along
the shore in different places. The initial search was handled
in a way that they were viewing it as a
(14:10):
missing hunter, and the agency handles those cases in a
completely different way, focusing on search and rescue or recovery.
So in their minds, they're looking for a living person.
But when these pieces of clothing began popping up, that's
when investigators began to think they're dealing with something else.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
Well, not everybody bought the alligator story. Take a listen
to Telehouse Democrat reporter Jennifer Portsmouth reporting on Mike's mother.
Speaker 9 (14:45):
She never ever believed that her son was in the lake.
Speaker 5 (14:48):
Not from day one. Not from day one did she
think of that.
Speaker 9 (14:51):
She didn't know. All she knew was that her son
was not in that lake. She just knew it, like
a mono, something just deep inside of her, and she
was absolutely committed to finding out what happened to him.
Speaker 10 (15:07):
It's never out of my head. Where is this child?
He maybe did, but he's not in that lake. And
if somebody did hurt my child, I want them found out.
I want them hunt.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
Karen Smith, forensics expert. If they have the boat, what
if anything could that prove?
Speaker 7 (15:25):
Well, it could prove a lot of different things. Nancy.
Did the boat have water in it? Was it completely dry?
You know these small boats they tipped, they're going to
have water in it also. But it's clothing. You know,
alligators at that theory pans out, they're not delicate eaters.
Where their rips were their tears? Was the clothing indicative
of a gator attack? Was there any other forensic evidence
(15:47):
within that clothing? You know, the boat itself, was his wallet,
there was his information? There was there other indicators. Was
his gun still laying there? Was his gun missing? If
he was duck hunting? All of these things are going
to play into a timeline, and it's going to play
into what really happened.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
So as one piece of clothing after the next starts
floating up to the surface, everyone's looking for Mike Williams.
Did he just leave town or did an alligator devour him?
How did he get in the water to start with
to John Limley, what can you tell me about his background?
For instance, how did he meet his wife Denise?
Speaker 4 (16:23):
Well, Denise and Mike were actually high school sweethearts. It's
that great old story that we hear so often and reality,
you know, most of the time it's not true. In
this case, it is. They met at North Florida Christian
School in Tallahassee, and most details from their early lives
to the couple's college days at Florida are interchangeable. Both
(16:45):
were active in extracurriculars through high school. Mike was a
promising football player, voted best Personality. His wife, then known
by the maiden name Denise Merrill, was a cheerleader for
the North Florida Eagles. Former classmates and even then current
friends of Mike say he was very well respected, then
(17:09):
at private school, then in business, where he excelled in both.
It wasn't unlike Mike to step into the role of
a protective older brother and to look over younger friends
and family members. Mike and Denise graduated in nineteen eighty eight,
(17:30):
alongside classmates Brian Winchester and his future bride, Kathy Aldridge.
The two couples remained close as they each married in
nineteen ninety four and had children.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
So those coach couples became very best friends. They're all
they go way way back. Now. As a matter of fact,
William's the victim. As a matter of fact, Mike Williams
and Brian Winchester, hey gone duck hunting that day and
then somehow he disappears. Everybody has to the lake together
(18:04):
with their boat to start searching, and they search in
the dark hours and hours and hours until Winchester and
his dad stumble on Williams's motorized canoe and it was
kind of uptouching the lake shore. They found his Ford
Bronco about seventy five yards away, abandoned, and that's all
(18:29):
they found. But eventually, after they searched, they found at
the very bottom of Lake Seminole, his hunting license, his jacket,
his waiters. Investigators convinced Williams was eaten by alligators. Crime
(18:51):
Stories with Nancy Grace, The brutal murder of a loving
husband and father Mike Williams is now the subject of
a brand new docuseries called Mister and Missus Murder. If
(19:15):
it had not been for Mike Williams' mother ryl. This
would never have been uncovered, and Denise Williams and Brian
Winchester would be skipping along their merry way laughing at
not only dead Mike Williams, but everybody else, including the
justice system. This is what really happened. In the weeks
(19:38):
and months that follow nobody finds them, but then Denise
the wife goes broke.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
And Scott Dungee says, now that Denise was a single mom,
money was getting tight.
Speaker 5 (19:52):
I was helping her.
Speaker 11 (19:53):
With some of the items that needed to be sold
to generate some cash until the insurance money came, and.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
There was a lot of insurance money involved. Williams had
three policies worth more than one point seventy five million dollars.
Speaker 9 (20:09):
While the search itself is still going on, while he
is still actively missing, they're still actively searching for him.
She is going and filing a claim against his life insurance.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
According to Florida law, since there was no proof Williams
had died, he would not be declared dead for five years.
Speaker 4 (20:27):
How much time did.
Speaker 5 (20:28):
It taken this case?
Speaker 1 (20:29):
It took six months.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
That's because Denise's attorney argued to a judge that the
waiters the vest and the hunting license were proof enough
that Williams dead. The judge agreed and issued a death certificate.
Cause of death accidental drowning while duck hunting on Lake Seminole.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
Straight out to John Limmley, investigative reporter with Crime online
dot Com, John Limley, the facts to me are very confusing.
Let me understand this. Did he go out originally alone
on the boat or was he with the high school friend.
Speaker 4 (21:00):
They allegedly chose December ninth as the day Winchester would
take Mike on a duck hunting trip, knock him overboard,
and stage his death as a boating mishap, But the
morning of the trip arrived and Mike called Winchester to
back out. Winchester invited Mike to go on another duck
hunting trip, but it seems no one else in Mike's
(21:21):
family knew that he was meeting Brian. So it was
in the early morning hours of December sixteenth that the
two pals launched their boat out into Lake Seminole. When
they reached a landing down from where they parked their vehicles,
Winchester got Mike to stand up, and that's when he
shoves him overboard. After that, Mike takes off his jacket,
(21:44):
takes off his waiters. Was in an absolute panic, and
Winchester says he was driving the boat, didn't know what
else to do, and then ends up shooting his best friend.
Winchester then allegedly dragged his friend's body to the shore
put him in the back of his Chevrolet Suburban. He
then pushed Mike's boat back out into the water and
(22:06):
headed back to his house, where his wife Kathy was
still asleep. Kathy, of course, knows nothing about any of this,
and Winchester says he got undressed, got back into bed,
and pretended that he.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Just woke up as usual. It's not all as it seems.
I want you to listen to high school friend Brian Winchester.
Speaker 5 (22:28):
We launched the boat. It was just like a hunting
trip was supposed to be.
Speaker 11 (22:33):
The plan that was discussed and come up with was
that he was going to be wearing waiters, and leef
was somebody falls in the water with waiters, you're.
Speaker 5 (22:47):
Going now, So we went out like we were going hunting.
Speaker 11 (23:00):
Got to the area where his waiters and jacket were found.
I got him to stand up and I pushed.
Speaker 5 (23:12):
Him into the water.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
You are hearing longtime high school friend Brian Winchester describing
breaking down crying he pushed his friend from high school
into the muddy waters of Lake Seminole Ashley Wilcott. I mean,
from the very beginning his story didn't make sense to me,
(23:35):
but to push somebody into the water. But you know what,
Ashley hold on. I want you to hear this.
Speaker 12 (23:41):
He got his jacket off and his waiters off, and
he was in a panic.
Speaker 5 (23:53):
Obviously, I was in a panic. I was dropping the.
Speaker 13 (24:02):
Boat and I didn't I didn't know what to do,
and I ended up shooting him.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
I ended up shooting him. To ash will court judge,
lawyer or at as she will caught dot com as
she will caught, it's like he didn't do it himself. Well,
I ended up. And I've seen that so many times
when defendants give statements or they're you know, stupid enough
to take the stand where they just going the gun
(24:42):
went off, No, you pull the trigger. What happened, Ashley
is he tricks his friend Mike Williams into standing up
in the boat, okay, the little skiff. When he stands up,
he pushes him in the guy can swim he's an athlete,
all right. Remember captain of the football team, Hunter Fisher.
(25:04):
The works. The guy swims to a swamp, a stump
or something in the water, and he's not dead, he's
not drowning, even with the waiters on. He gets his
jacket off, he gets his waiters off. So what does
Winchester do. He starts circling him in the boat. Can
you imagine Mike Williams clinging to a stump in the
(25:24):
middle of Lake Seminole and his best friend is circling
him in the water and finally gets close enough and
shoots him multiple times. That's what happened, Ashley.
Speaker 6 (25:35):
That's exactly what happened, Nancy, And that's horrific.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
And think about this.
Speaker 6 (25:38):
There's also testimony by Mike that he had to take
time to load his gun. So not by Mike, I
apologized by Brian Winchester. So Mike's in the.
Speaker 14 (25:46):
Water, really literally hanging.
Speaker 6 (25:49):
On to life on a tree and he has to
watch his quote unquote friend load his gun to circle
around to then shoot him.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
You know, it's to doctor Daniel Bober, forensics psychiatrist, this
is not a stranger on stranger attack. This is his
high school friend. They're grown now, they're both married with families,
and his high school friend, his best friend for twenty years,
shoots him dead. How does that happen?
Speaker 7 (26:21):
You know, Nancy, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
I don't know how he could have thought he was
going to get away with this.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
I mean, there's just a you know, there's like a lot,
It's like a trail of breadcrumbs.
Speaker 7 (26:29):
Given these connections of all these people, it just seems
silly to me that they thought the story would be
plausible at.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
All, you know, when you get right down to it, though,
doctor Bober, I've been asked so many times about motive.
The state, of course doesn't have to prove a motive
for murder, but it always boils down. Aren't money, sex,
slash love, revenge? Anger? It's it's always one of those four.
(26:55):
I mean, it's got to be one of those for
doctor Bober, agree or disagree?
Speaker 5 (26:58):
No, I totally agree.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
I think that pretty much encompasses all the motivation.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
Take a listen to our friends. At forty eight hours.
Speaker 9 (27:06):
She wrote the governor a letter every day.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
For nine years.
Speaker 8 (27:10):
She was absolutely possessed with finding this out.
Speaker 5 (27:14):
What had happened to mine and your God?
Speaker 1 (27:16):
Tells me in my honor that that childish dad I
cannot hear us looking for crime stories with Nancy Grace,
a brand new docuseries is handed over like a silver
platter after Denise Williams and her lover aka her husband's
(27:40):
best friend. Wow, some friend murder Mike all raised in
deeply Christian households. What went wrong? How long story short?
I guess what you have to do to get a
TV documentary is to murder your spend or something equally
(28:02):
as horrible. Mike disappeared after going on a duck hunting
trip Lake Seminole that's a little north of Tallahassee. When
he didn't return, a search ensued. His boat and car
were found, but not his body. Believe it or not,
(28:24):
many assumed, I wonder where this rumor started that he
had been eaten by alligators. Right blamed the alligator, but
his mother Cheryl never believed it. Now a series on
Hulu does it glorify the killer killers? This is what
(28:49):
really happened.
Speaker 7 (28:50):
This man was murdered, and they blamed it on alligators.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
For seventeen years, many a murderer has been blamed on
an alligator. But that's exactly what did not happen in
this case. As a matter of fact, what we learned
was happening is that after many many double dates together,
Brian Winchester falls in love with Mike Williams's wife, Denise Williams,
(29:18):
and on one of their double dates, they start kissing
after a discussion about six Wow, what a surprise. So
now we see it's not an alligator wanting a snack.
It's a love triangle, Ashley Wilcott.
Speaker 14 (29:33):
Absolutely love triangle. Not only that, but it comes out
they were having an affair before they before the victim
was shot in the face of murder.
Speaker 1 (29:44):
As a matter of fact, they go on and they
married John Lemley. How long after Mike Williams is shot dead?
Speaker 4 (29:51):
To the two Mary, it was just a year and
a half before they married.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
As the years dragged on, it looked like the mystery
of what happened to Mike Williams might never be solved.
If Brian and Denise knew anything about Mike's disappearance, they
weren't talking and no one could make them. By Florida law,
as long as they stayed married, neither could be forced
to testify against the other. But behind the scenes, Denise
(30:18):
and Brian's marriage was disintegrated.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
Wow, can you imagine that? So Mike Williams is gunned down,
his widow, Denise Williams, gets that life insurance policy over
a million dollars and marries the high school best friend,
Brian Winchester. You know, are you surprised, Ashley that over
as time passes, the two start hating each other, the
(30:42):
high school friend and the widow who are now married
and joined at the hip and bound together by murder.
Speaker 14 (30:48):
No, I'm not at all surprised. There is such a
concluded web as you already alluded to. Oh the tangle
web we weed and it was. There were multiple affairs
by different partners in these two marriages that led to this.
And Nancy, let me add this to your little food
for thought. There were three life insurance policies that amounted
to one point seventy five million dollars, and guests who
(31:12):
who wrote put together two of those policies? You got it?
Speaker 4 (31:16):
Brian Winchester.
Speaker 1 (31:18):
Okay, So John Lumley and investigative reporter Crime online dot Com.
The two wouldn't talk. How was the case cracked?
Speaker 4 (31:26):
Well, a story emerges of Brian actually kidnapping Denise. This
is such a bizarre twist to the story. Denise and
Brian separated in twenty twelve, reportedly due to his sex addiction.
She filed for divorce in twenty fifteen.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
So he's a killer and he has a sex addiction. Absolutely, okay,
go ahead.
Speaker 4 (31:49):
Denise tells the Leon County Sheriff's Office that on an
August afternoon, the day when the appraisal of their home
had been filed with court, she left her house to
drive to her at Florida State University. While she's on
the phone with her sister, she sees someone climb over
the back of her car, and it turned out to
(32:09):
be Brian. He takes her phone away begins yelling directions
to her. She didn't comply until he shows a gun.
She said later that he claimed that this was necessary
since she was not taking his calls and was blocking
his text messages.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
Well, and the whole time she knows he's already killed.
Once listen to Denise Williams in her own words, he's
reading and.
Speaker 5 (32:30):
I'm just like shaking and people are going to notice that.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
Denise reported her kidnapping to the Leon County Sheriff's office.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
I was like, are you planning on you know, any
both of our last day or mine?
Speaker 5 (32:43):
I'm planting on mine. And then you said I want
to kill my hest just said.
Speaker 4 (32:46):
Many times I want to kill myself.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
Brian Winchester was soon arrested and charged with the kidnapping
and aggravated assault of his wife.
Speaker 8 (32:55):
I was just kind of agreeing with whatever he was saying,
and as I know that you.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
Love, police quickly realized that the rift in Denise and
Brian's marriage presented an opportunity.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
So after she then Karen Smith goes to police saying
she's being kidnapped. I guess she had no idea that
everything she was saying was breaking the husband wife privilege.
But how can you back up her story?
Speaker 7 (33:23):
That's a really good question other than words at this point,
because they don't have forensics, they don't have the gun.
All they have is what Denise is telling police at
this point.
Speaker 1 (33:33):
So John Lumley, after she goes in on the kidnapped,
the alleged kidnap, how did they get the truth out
of her?
Speaker 4 (33:39):
Well, the case really, as you mentioned, really cracked open
with this break in their bond, the marriage bond legally
and he began to tell investigators details as well. This
is during the investigation of the kidnap and in December
(34:02):
twenty seventeen, Winchester was sentenced to twenty years in prison
for the kidnapping. Now, no mention was made of the
Williams case at Brian Winchester's sentencing. However, there was some
sort of deal that was reached that would reduce his
sentence for information in the case, specifically what happened and
(34:22):
where the.
Speaker 1 (34:22):
Well hold on. Let's go to Ashley Wilcott judge and lawyer.
Didn't he get immunity?
Speaker 14 (34:27):
He sure did, Nancy, he did get immunity, and they took.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
Life in prison off the table for the kidnapping charge.
Speaker 4 (34:34):
He got both.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
So how long is he's a sugarman? So in order
to testify against his new wife, Mike Williams widow, how
much time is he going to get?
Speaker 14 (34:44):
He gets none for killing. He got immunity, so he
gets none for killing. Now the only caveat is they said,
if there's any new evidence discovered outside of your version
of what happened, we could prosecute.
Speaker 4 (34:57):
On the new evidence.
Speaker 14 (34:58):
But he told the whole shebang, the whole story, So
I cannot imagine that happened.
Speaker 1 (35:02):
So on twenty years, we'll probably do about ten. Yes, okay, man,
you're not kidding. A kidnapping, a murder, a cold blooded
murder Denise Williams. The jury return a verdict guilty on
all counts. A TV series glamorizing a cold hearted killer
(35:29):
Mike Williams's wife. What really happened is that his best friend,
who was sleeping with his wife, takes Mike on a
trip to Lake Seminole. They take the boat to a
deep part of the lake. Winchester pushes Mike in the
water with hopes he would drown. He didn't drown, he
(35:50):
had to kill him. The two killers stated they preferred
the idea of drowning because it would quote make them
quote feel better about ourselves if there was a chance
he can make it out of it. It will be
up to God what happens, not us. It won't be murder,
it will be an accident. Really, you're trying to drag
(36:13):
God into this. Mike was an excellent swimmer, and he
removed his jacket and waiters in the water and last
onto a floating tree. Winchester loads his gun, drives over
to Mike and shoots him.
Speaker 7 (36:28):
In the head.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
Yes, that's what happened. Then these two pieces of crap Mary.
After murdering Mike, we wait as just as unfalls. Goodbye,
Host
Nancy Grace
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.