Authorities search for a 7-month-old boy reported kidnapped outside a California store by his mother.
Rebecca Haro is outside her vehicle, changing her son's diaper, when she is assaulted from behind and knocked unconscious. When she regained consciousness, baby Emmanuel was gone.
San Bernardino County sheriff's deputies used helicopters and K-9s, and the family handed out flyers, looking for Emmanuel Haro, outside Big 5 Sporting Goods in Yucaipa.
As the parents plead for their son to be returned, police find inconsistencies in the mom's initial statement. Investigators say they are unable to rule out foul play. Police search the family home and extend the area in search of the missing 7-month-old.
Joining Nancy Grace today:
- Philip Dubé - Former Court-Appointed Counsel, Los Angeles County Public Defenders: Criminal & Constitutional Law, Forensics & Mental Health Advocacy
- Dr. John Delatorre - Licensed Psychologist and Mediator (specializing in forensic psychology); Psychological Consultant to Project Absentis: a nonprofit organization that searches for missing persons; Twitter, IG, and TikTok - @drjohndelatorre
- Brian Fitzgibbons - VP of Operations for USPA Nationwide Security; Instagram: @uspa_nationwide_security, Kingsman Philanthropic's 2022 rescue missions of women and children in Ukraine, Iraq War Veteranide_security
- Tom Rawlings - President, Child Welfare & Justice Transformation, LLC; Former Juvenile Court Judge, State Child Advocate, and Former Director of Georgia Division of Family and Children Services. Board-certified Child Welfare and Protection Attorney, (Equipping organizations in the US and abroad to protect children from abuse and exploitation) AUTHOR OF “Protecting Other People’s Children: 120 Days to Create a Strong Child Safety Policy,” website: CWJT.US., SUBSTACK; X @tcrawlings
- Joy Benedict - Reporter at CBS Los Angeles; Instagram / Facebook / X: @joybenedict
- Dave Mack - Crime Stories Investigative Reporter
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Mommy's frantic please after baby Emmanuel, just seven months old,
is kidnapped during an attack outside a sporting good store tonight,
inconsistencies emerge that bothers me when LA law enforcement tells
(00:28):
me there are inconsistencies, I'm just telling you right now,
we got a problem. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.
I want to thank you for being with us.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
San Bernardino. Mom arrives at a sporting goods store on
a quiet Thursday evening with her infant son, Emmanuel, but
minutes later, a violent attack unfolds in the store parking
lot and baby Emmanuel is gone.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
What happened to baby Emmanuel just seven months old?
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Control room? I would like to see some shots of
this baby.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
If you know or think you know anything about the
whereabouts of this beautiful child.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Beautiful?
Speaker 2 (01:12):
How many people across our country would give their it
to have a baby, People struggling to have babies, people
that want another baby, people that attached to this baby
and want to raise the baby, that.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
Pay tens of thousands of dollars. Where is a manual?
If you know or think you know anything?
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Nine zero nine three eight seven eight three one three
repeat nine zero nine three eight seven eight three one three.
As we like to say in the low time, is
of the essence. In other words, every minute counts. Joining
me in All Star panel to make sense of what
(01:56):
we know right now, But first.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Listen to this.
Speaker 4 (02:00):
Seventy miles east of Los Angeles in Ukaipa, Rebecca Harrow
steps done needs a new mouthpiece for football. She heads
to a sporting good store with seven month old Emmanuel.
Rebecca Harrow realizes baby Emmanuel dirtied his diaper, and she
prepares to change his diaper before going into the store.
Rebecca Horrow places baby Emmanuel next to his car seat
to change his diaper. When she hears a man say
(02:21):
oh lah. Before she can return the greeting, she has
knocked unconscious. When she wakes up, baby Emmanuel is gone.
Rebecca Horrow races inside the Big five and asks an
employee if she has seen a baby or a person
with a baby come into the store. Nine to one
one is called at seven forty five.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Joining me right now, Joy Benedict, you know her well,
investigative reporter CBSLA. She's been on a story from the
very beginning. Joy, Thank you for being with us tonight.
Let's start at the beginning. What happened.
Speaker 5 (02:52):
Well, we heard.
Speaker 6 (02:53):
About this on Thursday night when the call came out
saying that there was a reported kidnapping.
Speaker 5 (02:58):
It happened in you Kaipo, which is.
Speaker 6 (02:59):
An hour and a half east of Los Angeles and
San Bernardino County. And that's when they first got the
call from someone of the Big Five.
Speaker 5 (03:08):
Say my baby has been taken. I need help. So
the Sheriff's department rushes to the Big Five parking lot.
Speaker 6 (03:15):
That is where they find the mother, Rebecca Harrow, and
she is frantic.
Speaker 5 (03:20):
And upset, and she says.
Speaker 6 (03:22):
You know what, my child was taken, but I don't
know what happened. And in the very beginning, there were
things like no amper alert was issued, right there weren't
any there wasn't any security video for the Sheriff's department.
Speaker 7 (03:36):
To go on.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Wa wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait, Joy, Benedette,
you've got me drinking from the fire hydra here. And
I know from missing people cases, especially children, every detailed
count and you have the facts.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
Guy's Joy has.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Been on the case since baby Emmanuel was first reported missing.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
Tonight. Where is this baby? Did it go down the
way we're being told?
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Also with me, in addition to Benedict, is a longtime colleague,
Brian Fitzgibbons. Brian the director of Operations at USPA Nationwide Security.
He leads a team of investigator specializing in finding missing
people at uspasecurity dot Com.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
Okay, Brian, thank you for being with us tonight.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
I want to quickly point out we're hearing about inconsistencies
in what happened. But wouldn't you agree with me. I'm
not defending anybody. I'm not prosecuting anybody. I want to
find this baby, and I want to find the baby alive.
The mother says. Rebecca Harrow says her step son needs
(04:42):
a new mouthpiece for football. Okay, I'm projecting, but many
times at the last minute, I've run to Dick's Sporting
Goods or target or wherever I can get as fast
as I can get to get on shin guards because.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
John Davy cannot play. Can I get on the field without.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
The shin guards? Or I please guess what last year's
don't fit? We didn't replace them in time. All sorts
of things happen at the last minute. Okay, So maybe
I'm projecting, but I get it. And also this would
be hard to fake because if there is a football practice, right,
that's easily verified. If he didn't have a mouthpiece, that's
(05:20):
easily verified. But it ends right there because she never
goes in to buy the mouthpiece. But those facts can
be verified, can they not? Fitzgibbons.
Speaker 8 (05:34):
Absolutely, You're bringing in other witnesses that are going to
be able to corroborate and validate what the mother is saying.
Was the child allowed to enter the field if the
answers know from the coach he didn't have his mouthpiece?
You know, now we can verify that that piece of
the story at least was true.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
And I'm guessing.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
I'm guessing that other people were there and saw maybe
a manual at that time. I don't know that piece
of the puzzle yet, but I'm finding it out. Okay,
back to Joy Benedict, who has all the facts far
beyond what I in the panel knows. She's been on
the ground studying the case. Okay, you started with a call,
(06:15):
a call my baby is missing. What do we know
about the call? What was said specifically in that call?
Speaker 1 (06:21):
Words matter? Even one word matters.
Speaker 5 (06:24):
She said, the baby was kidnapped.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
Joy, What were the circumstances mommy related at that time
as to how the seven month old baby was taken?
Speaker 5 (06:33):
Well, I spoke to her the very next morning, so
I spoke to her at the Big Five.
Speaker 6 (06:37):
She agreed to do in view with us because at
that time she was frantically searching for a child. And
what she told me in that interview was that she
had left the park with her step son and left
their two year old daughter with the father to go
and get that mouthguard from the Big five parking lot
not too far away in Ukaipa, which is about an
hour and a half east of Los Angeles and San
(06:59):
Bernadi County, And she had gone to the parking lot,
and she said when she got out of their pickup
truck from the front seat and went to grab her
baby in the back seat, she said she could smell
that his diaper needed changing, so she laid him there
on the back seat behind the driver's side door, because
she said she was on the driver's side and she
(07:20):
started to change her diaper when someone attacked her. She
said she didn't see him, and then she woke up
a few seconds later, she blacked out and she woke
up and the baby was gone.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Now here's another fact. She smells the dirty dip. She's
at the parking lot at Big Five and I need
to talk to you about surveillance video. You were there
on to find out about cams. But she smells the
dirty dip. She gets out of the truck. He assume
is in a baby seat in the back seat. She
gets him out and then she's attacked.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
But isn't it true? She says she hears a man
say ola.
Speaker 5 (07:56):
Yes, that is what she told me.
Speaker 6 (07:58):
She said she heard her man say ola, but she
didn't see him, and he attacked her from behind her.
Speaker 5 (08:05):
But the black eye is in front and so I.
Speaker 6 (08:07):
Did ask her about her injuries, and she said that
she was punched, which was one of the inconsistencies that
were discussed later.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
On Okay, you know what.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
Philip Dubay joining us in addition to investigative reporter from
CBSLA on the story from the get go, Joey Benedict
Brian Fitzgibbons. Now, I'm bringing in Philip Debay, a veteran
defense attorney, joining us out of the La County jurisdiction debay. Again,
I'm not defending or prosecuting anybody, but I do not
(08:41):
find that inconsistent. The fact that she was first attacked
from behind does not preclude then getting a.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Punch in the eye.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
It also does not preclude her falling forward and hitting
the eye. So right now, I don't see an inconsistency,
of course not.
Speaker 9 (09:00):
I mean, the lady told her story, and it's it's
up to the casual observer as to whether or not
they believe it. And from where I am sitting right now,
nothing is contradicting it.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
Let's hear it from the horse's mouth.
Speaker 10 (09:13):
I was going to get the diaper and somebody said oil,
and I don't welcome right here on the floor.
Speaker 11 (09:22):
And I didn't see manuel.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
That from our friends A k t l A Crime
Stories with Nancy Grace joining me.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
Now, Tom Rawlings, the President of Child Welfare and Justice Transformation,
former juvenile court judge, juvenile court judge overseeing juvenile infractions
and crimes, child advocate.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
It goes on and on and on.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
He's the author of protecting other people's children one hundred
and twenty days to create a strong child safety policy.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
Okay, Tom, thank you for being with us.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
The reason we're all looking at the mom is because
she's the last one to.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Be with the baby that we know of.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
And isn't it true when children go missing, typically you
can point to a family member, a relative, or someone
in the close network of the family, and that just
goes with the territory. I'm not singling her out. I'm
not singling the dad out, the stepdad, not not. I
just know what statistics are explain.
Speaker 12 (10:35):
I think there are a lot of questions to look
at here because what other evidence was available? Did anyone
see a.
Speaker 9 (10:41):
Man wandering upout around the parking lot.
Speaker 12 (10:43):
I'm looking for a child to kidnap? Were there any
other businesses, surveilance videos?
Speaker 2 (10:50):
Okay, wait right there, Tom, hold on, hold on, Tom,
I don't think it's that easy. Yes, in theory, I
agree with you. But Brian Fitzgibbons, you know child abductors, kidnappers, molesters.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
They can look like the choir director.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
You're not going to see somebody walking through the parking
lot at the Big five Sporting Goods in a trench
coat and bare legs and a pair of socks and
dress shoes with sunglasses.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
And hat On. It's not that stereotypical.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
So to say, did anybody see a child predator wandering
around the parking lot? Yes, in theory, he's absolutely right,
but we don't know what that might look like.
Speaker 8 (11:32):
Well, I think mister Rawlings brought up a great point.
This can't be a random act. Okay, you know, the
abductor would have had to known that the mouthguard would
be missing.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
The abductor would have to have been waiting.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
I can't believe I'm about to argue with Brian Fitzgibbons. Fitzgibbons, Huh,
it's something wrong my ifp Jackie, because I thought he
just said the abductor would have to know about the
missing mouthpiece. I've never heard anything so crazy in my life. Well,
maybe I have, but this is equally as crazy as
all of that.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Chris Gimmons, that's not.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
True predators, troll playgrounds. This is a sporting goods store
where there's an open parking lot, open parking lot where
kids go in to get their sporting equipment, and it's
just like hanging out at the ice cream store or
the playground. You don't have to know the mouthpiece is missing.
(12:30):
Several miles away and then follow the mom and the baby.
Although that is a possibility. You could just be hanging
out in the parking lot and go, hey, whoa a baby?
Speaker 1 (12:40):
It happens. I mean, let me think, wha Cherish Periwinkle?
Speaker 2 (12:45):
Remember that the killer, the killer who raped satom eyed
and murdered little Cherish Periwinkle, was just wandering around. I
think it was the Dollar General. He sees mommy and
three little girls. He's like bam, target and he gets
the child under a roofs and murders her.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
He didn't follow the mommy to the Dollar General. No,
that did not happen. I don't know what you're saying.
Have you lost your mind?
Speaker 8 (13:12):
Well, I can agree with you that it does happen,
but I think we can both agree that this would
be a wild statistical anomaly that first of all, the
age of the child seven months old. You know the
predominance of suspects in these cases are going to be women,
all right, taking a child that's this young, all right.
The second thing is this is in a public place,
(13:34):
a random act.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
Okay, okay, Well, what I want to break down what
you just said. And I'm not saying you're wrong, but
you just skimmed over it. That's an important point you said,
And I want you to explain in depth why if
there was a kidnapping, it was likely a woman because
mommy says she hears a man say olah, and then
(13:59):
she is a packed by a man. Okay, A physical
attack of that nature is more stereotypically, not stereotypically, but
according to statistics, would be affected.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
By a man.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
A woman would come up and surreptitiously grab the baby
while mom's not looking, or some sneaky or crafty way
of getting the baby.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
Not just go, you know, beat the.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
Mom over the head and drag her off and get
the baby. That's a man, but you said typically perpetrated
by a woman. That's very subtle but significant point. So
explain to me why you said that.
Speaker 8 (14:46):
The explanation here is statistics. When you're dealing with a
victim of that young of an age in you know,
the zero to seven months, zero to a year old,
the statistics tell these are typically women perpetrating those crimes.
You know, now as you get older, a four or
five year old grab from the dollar general, grab from
(15:08):
the playground, you know, the perpetrators of those crimes are
typically met. But in this case, it's already a statistical
anomaly to say that a man physically attacked in this,
you know, apparently random act to take an infant.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Okay, you know what, just off the top of my head,
You've got J. C. Duger, You've got I could just
name them off, just like that, where men do randomly
grab a child. This is this is not outside the
realm of possibility. And the mom says she hurt a man,
(15:43):
not a woman.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
What is your point?
Speaker 8 (15:46):
The point that I'm making is this is beginning the
story unfolding is a statistical anomaly. It's very difficult to believe, okay,
that we're we're looking at these circumstances, and if I
line it up with the overwhelming amount of data, a
man perpetrating this random act is it's possible, certainly possible,
(16:08):
but highly unlikely.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
And Brian, I'm not attacking you.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
I'm just trying to find the baby.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
You're right, the.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
Desire to have a baby is overwhelmingly a female desire.
I'll give you a good example. The example of let's
see what was her name? Dy Nail Lane is one
that just comes to mind. A thirty four year old female.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
Who had lost a baby.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
Her baby had a drowning accident, and she went so
far as to find a pregnant mom and cut the
baby out of the wound. We've heard of those cases, right,
there are many of them. Surprisingly, they're almost always done,
I could say, always done by a female if the
motivation is Okay, again, a subtle but important distinction in
(17:06):
your theory. If the motivation is to have your own baby, yes,
it's a woman, absolutely a woman. But if the motivation
is to get the baby and sell the baby or
molest the baby, that's a man. So until we know
(17:27):
the motivation, fitz Gibbons, we can't say.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
Man or woman.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
So your theory is flawed because we don't know a motivation.
It could be a man, it could be a woman,
and mommy says it was a man. See where I'm
going with this? Why motivation is so important?
Speaker 8 (17:42):
Yeah, I'll con see it and agree that this is
very possible. It's possible, right, But there's a difference between
possible and probable, And you know, the statistics would tell
us that this is not probable, albeit that it is
indeed possible.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
Guys, all of our machinations and our analysis aside. And
this is exactly what law enforcement is doing right now
as we speak. They're pulling twenty four to seven shifts
trying to find this baby. Let's help them. All of
our analysis aside. This seven month old baby has been taken.
(18:22):
Who took him? Where is he is? He's still alive.
Regardless of what you may believe. The only evidence we
have right now is what mommy is telling us.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
Let's take it. Listen from our friends at KTLA, I was.
Speaker 11 (18:40):
Gonna get the diaper and somebody said oil, and I don't.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
I'll look right here on the floor.
Speaker 11 (18:48):
And I didn't see Manuel.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
From our friends KTLA, where is baby Emmanuel?
Speaker 2 (18:53):
Just seven months old? Mystery surrounding the search for Emmanuel?
Speaker 1 (19:00):
Is he dead? Is he alive? Who has baby im Manual?
Speaker 2 (19:05):
What happened at the time he was kidnapped in a
public parking lot? According to mommy, Listen, and I.
Speaker 11 (19:13):
Said, as I got up, I couldn't find my son.
Speaker 10 (19:16):
I checked the around my truck, and I ran into
Big Five and I asked the lady if she saw.
Speaker 11 (19:22):
A baby or someone with a baby.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
She said no.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
This from our friends at ABC seven, straight out to
doctor John Delatory, renowned psychologist specializing in forensic psychology, Doctor Delatory,
thank you for being with us. I'm sure you have
analyzed every word, every mannerism from mommy analysis.
Speaker 13 (19:46):
I mean, there's a level of emotion that I think
most people would expect a frantic mother to be experiencing. Right,
She's kind of huffing and puffing, right, She's kind of
like have shallow breathing. Right, There's elements that we would
kind of expect a mother to kind of have, but
each individual is just a little bit different in how
(20:06):
that expression is really gonna go. My concern is that
it seems shallow. My concern is that it doesn't seem
like it's coming up from a well of struggle and
anxiety and fear and anger. Doesn't really seem to be
coming from a place like that. It just seems to
(20:27):
be kind of.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
For a show.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
I don't know where you're getting that. I'm not disagreeing
with you or agreeing with you, but I do know this.
I apport over every single word. Let's hear Rebecca Harrow again.
Speaker 11 (20:40):
And I said, as I got up, I couldn't find
my son.
Speaker 10 (20:43):
I checked the around my truck and I ran into
big five, and I asked the lady if she saw
a baby or someone with a baby.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
She said, no, hmm, that's where our friend's at ABC seven.
And you're sticking with your analysis, delatory that you think
it's contrived.
Speaker 13 (21:01):
Yes, because it sounds correct. It sounds like the thing
that we should be hearing. Well, when you see her face,
her face doesn't show elements that she's actually been crying. Right,
her eyes aren't red from tears, right, there aren't tears
actually falling down, right, It's it sounds correct, But the behaviors,
(21:23):
the mannerisms, things are inconsistent. Right, when someone is feeling something,
genuinely feeling something, the body and the emotions and the words,
they all are linked together.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
Okay, you know what.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
I was listening to what she was saying. But now
let's watch her as she speaks. And then we're going
to go out to Joy Benedict, who has interviewed mommy.
But let's watch for ourselves. Let's watch Rebecca Harrow is delatory, right,
And I.
Speaker 11 (21:55):
Said, as I got up, I couldn't find my son.
Speaker 10 (21:58):
I checked the all around truck and I'm ran into
Big five and I asked the lady if she saw
a baby or someone with a baby.
Speaker 11 (22:07):
She said, no, that.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
From our friends again at ABC seven Dolatory. You're right,
she's not crying at all. And again I've told you
this before. Maybe I'm projecting, but when John David went
missing in a vast at Baby zero superstore, I immediately
started screaming at the top of my lungs and grabbed
(22:28):
Lucy his twin like a football, started running toward the
front the exit that I knew of to try to
find him. He was playing a game. He's you know,
a little over two hiding.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
Okay, so yeah, I'm not seeing any of that.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
Although this is much later in the day or even
day two, when she's stating that maybe she's drained, I
don't know. And again I'm not defending or prosecuting. I'm
just looking at the facts, because if you don't look
at the facts objection in a new objective manner, you're screwed.
You can't go into an investigation thinking one thing or
(23:05):
the other. Joining me now, Joy Benedict, she is an
investigative reporter CBSLA. She's been on the story from the
get go. She's interviewed the mom that you just saw
and the Dad, I want to hear about her demeanor, Joy,
when you interviewed her, I.
Speaker 6 (23:21):
Mean, I thought she was beside herself. I found her
grief very, very real. It was heartbreaking to listen to her.
It was freaking to talk to her. And no, she
didn't have big crocodile dial tears coming down her face.
Speaker 5 (23:35):
But a lot of people don't. I mean, I've.
Speaker 6 (23:37):
Interviewed crime victims for twenty five years within hours of
the crime happening, and they all don't cry, some of
them laugh, some of them solve, some of them don't
want to speak at all.
Speaker 5 (23:47):
So there is no you know, this is what grief
looks like. And I found her grief and her pain.
I found it very real where it was coming from.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
We don't know, Okay, Joy Benedict, does her story hold together?
Speaker 6 (24:02):
You know, I don't think that's my place to say.
I think there's definitely some things that are missing in
the story. But you know, that's what DETESL are looking into,
and they're trying to figure out right now because there
weren't any cameras, there weren't any witnesses. Nobody has come forward,
so it's basically her word that this child was kidnapped.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
Okay, Joy, you mentioned that elements are missing. What elements, Well.
Speaker 6 (24:24):
It's very odd that there is no security video there
in the Big five parking lot. There wasn't much security
video at any of the businesses around. There was no
one else with her in the parking lot when this
incident took place. There was no witnesses, and so it's
basically her word calling the police saying my child was kidnapped.
They didn't even have enough to put out an amber
(24:45):
alert because they didn't have a description of a vehicle.
Speaker 5 (24:48):
They didn't have a description of a suspect. So you know, that's.
Speaker 6 (24:51):
Where you know people's red flags are coming up.
Speaker 5 (24:54):
But that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
Speaker 6 (24:56):
As you've said on the show, it doesn't mean it
couldn't have happened.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
Yeah, here's wh problem, Joy Benedict. If you go into
an investigation pre judged, you're only shooting yourself in the foot.
Everyone is piling on Mommy tonight, and she is the
last person with the baby. She is the person who
(25:20):
was on watch when the baby was taken. It's not
her fault that there are no cameras in that parking lot,
which I find really odd.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
Is that correct? No cameras in the parking lot.
Speaker 6 (25:34):
There are no cameras in the park lot. I've been
in that parking lot for hours. No cameras is in
the Big five next to it is a big lots.
I don't even think that was open anymore. Across the street,
there wasn't much. It doesn't have a camera.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
In it did not Okay, no cameras, no witnesses, nobody
else is in the parking lot. Again, if you pile
on mommy right now, that's misdirection and you're not going
to find the baby ever or until it's too late
if you go in the in the wrong direction. So
there's got to be a dual path of investigation. Right now,
(26:09):
I'm trying to figure out why everyone is piling onto mommy.
I have my suspicions. Let's listen to what else she said.
Speaker 11 (26:17):
Who's a happy boy? He smile my kend you love
to kiss him?
Speaker 1 (26:23):
Okay, right there, big problem.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
He was a happy boy, he smiled past, tense, I
loved to kiss him.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
That's for our friends at ABC seven.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
Wait a minute, Dave mac, is she referring to her
baby in the past?
Speaker 7 (26:47):
Tense I think she is talking about her baby in
the past tense, Nancy, when she says he was happy.
You just listen to those little subtle things she's saying,
and she is referring to him in the past tense.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
Okay, too, away, Benedict, investigator reporter CBS LA, you don't
have a problem with that, because I really do.
Speaker 6 (27:06):
I think people say a lot of things when they're grieving.
I'm not going to say I don't have a problem
with it, or I didn't hear it in our interview
as well, because she also spoke about him in past
tense at least once, but she also talked about him
in present tents for the majority of the place. She
accidentally also called him as she once. So, I think
when you are grieving and you are speaking very fast
and you're doing a lot of interviews, there's going to
(27:27):
be some inconsistencies in what you say, and I think
part of that is just natural speak, especially when you're
in front of cameras for probably the first time in
your life.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
That's a lot of explaining away as to why she
talked about her baby in the past tense.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
Also, you said grieving.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
I don't know, do you know something I don't know,
has the baby been found dead.
Speaker 6 (27:46):
I'm just saying grief comes in a lot of different
ways when someone is kidnapped versus if the baby is dead.
I think grief can be a lot of things. It
doesn't have to mean that a child is dead. And no,
I don't know, you don't know, We don't know right now,
open to find this baby. I think everyone is doutor
John Delatory.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
I agree with that last statement from Joey Benedict joining
us out of CBSLA, But I do have a problem
referring to a mom and dad referring to the baby
in the past tense. When I'm trying to find the baby.
They're volunteers trying to find the baby. It's very reminiscent
of other individuals that have referred to missing people in
(28:25):
the past tense. I'm referring specifically to Scott Peterson who
went on National TV and referred to Lacy during the
search for Lacy in the past tense.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
Listen, we took care of each other very well. She's amazing.
Speaker 8 (28:44):
He is amazing.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
That from our friends at ABC, what do you make
of it?
Speaker 13 (28:48):
Delatory intentionality, Listen, no one is expecting people to be
media savvy at the worst moments of their lives. No
one is expecting someone to be consistent into when they're
experiencing fear, anger, stress, anxiety, panic, right anger, sadness, depression.
No one is expecting any of those things. But if
(29:10):
your intention is to find someone, then you will be responding.
You will be interacting with others with that intention. And
I'll just say this, if you come away from someone thinking, Wow,
they're really experiencing grief when there's no reason to be
experiencing grief as a result of the loss of a
(29:31):
loved one, then maybe you're picking up on something that
the person is trying to hide.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
Where is seven month old baby Emmanuel? We were discussing
mommy referring to baby Emmanuel and the past tense.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
But it's not just mommy. Listen, it was a healthy baby.
It was crawling, he was kickkating, he was playing with
his toys.
Speaker 11 (29:55):
Whoever took our sons, please give them back?
Speaker 2 (30:01):
Okay again from our friends at ABC seven, Philip Dubay,
Neither one of the parents are crying. Go ahead, second verse,
same as the first. There's no playbook for grief. Go ahead,
hit me, I'm ready there.
Speaker 9 (30:15):
Is no almanac for how parents are supposed to react
when their kid has been abduct There's just no way
predict how each person's individuality is going to play out,
either in the media or privately amongst themselves. And it's
unfair to hold everybody's individual reactions against them short of
a confession or some admission of cold ability. Let them
(30:37):
grieve privately and don't try to read into every aspect
of what they're saying and how they present. Otherwise, we
tend to taint future jury pools into not believing anybody
and nobody will ever report a missing child.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
Okay, now you have taken a monumental leak to future juries,
not even on this case, but the and the never
ending future about how our analysis of the last person
with this baby is behaving, enter tainting jury pools into
future future jury trials. Okay, you know what, Brian Fitzgibbons,
(31:14):
Let's break it down. Regardless of what Dubey says, neither
one of the parents are crying. And that may mean
nothing to a gurrr, it may mean a lot to
a GRR. And I'd like to point out mom and
dad are innocent. Right now, I don't have anything suggesting
they took the baby or harm the baby. Yet, I'm
(31:35):
just trying to find the baby, and their demeanors are
important to me.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
If it's Gibbons, yeah, it.
Speaker 8 (31:41):
Certainly means something here in the court of public opinion.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
Tears or no tears. Let's move forward with what we know.
Speaker 4 (31:47):
Listen, just before eight pm Thursday night, Sam Bernardino Sheriffs
arrive and begin searching the Strip Mall in parking lot.
Canine units are dispatched to the scene as well helicopters overhead.
Sam Bernardino Sharf's department joined my neighboring rivers County Deputies
to aid any comprehensive search that stretches through the night.
Speaker 2 (32:04):
So it was not just sand Bernardino Sheriffs. They get
help from their neighbors. Riverside County Deputies tell me about
the search and Joy Benedict yees.
Speaker 6 (32:14):
So they did a lot right that initial night is
when they had the canine units out, they had the
helicopter of they were looking for any signs of baby Emmanual.
Speaker 5 (32:23):
There weren't any.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
So let me understand, Joy Benedict, the mother and father
are out physically searching for Emmanuel, but the Big Five
on Friday.
Speaker 6 (32:32):
They had flyers, they were handing them out. People in
the community were sh up. Everyone was doing what they
could to try and find this baby.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
Okay, so in a nutshell, yes, the parents are out searching.
Very often when a loved one is under suspicion, they're
not out searching. These parents are out searching, putting up
flyers about the search.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
Tell me about the canine search. What happened That all.
Speaker 5 (33:01):
Happened on Thursday night very quickly.
Speaker 6 (33:03):
They did not get a cent, so the Sheriff's department
deployed the canines immediately.
Speaker 5 (33:08):
They didn't get a scent there.
Speaker 6 (33:10):
I believe they also sent the dines of other places
outside of where the Big Five was, but without a cent,
there's not much of a search.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
Okay, Brians Gibbons, that's a problem is you will recall
I'll just use Peterson, which is a great example, but
there are many, many other similar cases.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
A dog picked up Lacey's scent.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
They're at the home, their home she shared with husband
Scott Peterson in Modesto and followed the scent all the
way to the marina.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
At San Francisco Bay. Now, if there's no scent, that's
a problem.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
There should be a sent for Pete's sake, he had
a dirty dipe. There should be a scent of this baby,
shouldn't there.
Speaker 1 (33:56):
That certainly is a problem.
Speaker 8 (33:58):
No sent in the parking lot is you know, these
dogs are very highly trained and we have case after
case that they will pick up a cent with a
very high degree of accuracy. So no sent in the
parking lot, no video. We're lacking a lot of physical
idents that Emmanuel was actually in that Big five parking lot.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
And since we're on Scott Peterson, Tom Rowlings joining me,
President Child Welfare, Justice Transformation, former juvenile Court Judge Tom, again,
thank you for being with us.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
If you will recall there.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
Was a lot of public speculation because Peterson would not
go on air and make a plea to help find
his missing wife and unborn son. We all know now
is because he was embroiled in a sex affair with
Amber Fry, who had no idea until then that he
was married. That's why he didn't want to go public.
(34:54):
But I want you to hear this, Tom Rowlings, the
parents do go public.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
Listen.
Speaker 4 (34:58):
The parents of missing baby a manual, Rebecca and Jay
Carrow appear on local news begging for the return of
their son. Rebecca appears with a black eye she says
is from the attacker. They're emotional pleas bring out volunteers
in the community as well as groups like Uvaldi Foundation
for Kids. Evaldi offers a five thousand dollar reward and
are also providing an independent search for the baby. A
(35:20):
candlelight vigilist scheduled to bring more awareness for baby Emmanual.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
So after the parents speak Tom Rawlings, the Uvalde Foundation
for Children gets into action. They start independent searches. Not
that the police failed in their search, but this is
to help we see it all the time.
Speaker 1 (35:40):
They offer a reward.
Speaker 2 (35:42):
There's a candlelight vigil to bring awareness to baby Manual's disappearance.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
So the parents do go public and face the cameras well.
Sure as I'm not.
Speaker 12 (35:50):
Sure that I'm not sure that curse. So we know
that if the child's is actually then kid app that
certainly the parents would act to this one. They would
be out looking for the child, they would be in grief.
But we also know that if something else happened to
the child, and the parents knew that something had happened
(36:11):
with the child, that having told a story, they would
have to follow through in fact, like they were looking
for the child. This would not be the first time
we've seen a parent who perhaps there were questions about
whether or not the child disappeared or was somehow harmed
by someone in the family. We've seen situations where these
(36:34):
parents have been part of the search before, until it
comes out that in some of these cases that the
parent was responsible, not suggesting not here, but assistant with
either the truth or a lie here if they were child.
Speaker 2 (36:53):
Okay, so you're saying that the fact that they are
out searching neither hurts nor helps.
Speaker 1 (36:59):
Is that right? Is that what you're saying?
Speaker 2 (37:01):
Right?
Speaker 12 (37:02):
So, if they're out searching because say I want to
hear where their child is, that's right. If they're out
searching because they've already told a worried about half what
happened to their they got a follow through with that
pictest story. They got to look sick with a.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
Lot crime stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 4 (37:30):
Police interview both parents as well as other witnesses, and
when parts of the story being told by Rebecca are inconsistent,
law enforcement asks if the couple will take a polygraph test.
Jake Harrow tells investigators, they will not take a polygraph
test without a lawyer present, and cooperation between the parents
and law enforcement ends. One witness tells police Harrow had
(37:50):
a black eye before Emmanuel went missing.
Speaker 1 (37:53):
What they refuse a polygraph?
Speaker 3 (37:57):
Uh?
Speaker 2 (37:58):
A witness says mom had that black eye before the
attack and the Big five parking lot, Joy Benedict, What,
that's what witnesses are saying.
Speaker 5 (38:07):
That's what some people have said.
Speaker 6 (38:08):
But there's a lot of rumors that are spreading around
the area right now. Every neighbor, everybody in that community
seems to have an opinion. So I obviously don't know
if she had that black eye prior to Friday or not.
When I saw her, she had a black eye. It
could have been the beaches, it could have been in
the end stages.
Speaker 1 (38:24):
Okay, what about refusing to take a polygraph? Joy?
Speaker 6 (38:30):
I mean, I'm not a lawyer, but if someone asked
me to take a polygraph test, and that would make
me believe that maybe all of a sudden a suspect
and I would ask for a lawyer.
Speaker 5 (38:39):
I mean, wouldn't you.
Speaker 2 (38:40):
Know if my child were missing? No, let me just
spell it out. H E L L N oh no,
I would take the polygraph, I would slow down, gum
up the works.
Speaker 1 (38:59):
Dave Mac, have you ever heard of Mark Class? Absolutely
Nancy the gold standard?
Speaker 2 (39:07):
When his daughter poly Class was abducted from her mom's
own home during a sleepover, abused and murdered by Richard
Allen May, he wrought in hell when the cops came
to classes door. You know what, he said, search me,
take my fingerprints, take my DNA, search my house, search
(39:29):
my car, search my place. Get me out of the
way so you can find who took my daughter.
Speaker 1 (39:35):
Do you remember that, Dave Mac like it was yesterday?
Speaker 14 (39:39):
Because nobody believed him. Nobody thought, you know, this is crazy.
Nobody gets kidnapped out of a bedroom during his sleepover,
out of their own home. But I do remember Mark
Class stood from me, he planted his feet and said,
eliminate me as a suspect and find the real person.
Speaker 1 (39:56):
I mean, Dave, understand me.
Speaker 2 (39:59):
I'm yelling at you. I'm yelling about this situation. I'm
yelling about this baby gone. And mommy and daddy won't
take a polygraph, so they can either be cleared or
be under the umbrella of suspicion.
Speaker 1 (40:15):
So you know what, if you fail the polly.
Speaker 2 (40:17):
Let's talk about that, Dobey, Say, mommy and daddy fail
the polly, but they're innocent.
Speaker 1 (40:23):
That will be born out.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
A polygraph cannot come into evidence unless it's agreed upon
stipulated by the defense and the prosecution ahead of time
at trial, so that would never come into trial, so
a it would clear them be if they fail it.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
Yeah, I'm gonna look at them, but that doesn't mean
they're guilty.
Speaker 2 (40:41):
They could lie about something as simple as hey, we've
smoked pot before.
Speaker 1 (40:45):
I'm gonna lie about that. That has nothing to do
with the baby's disappearance.
Speaker 2 (40:49):
My point is I've got a problem when mommy and
daddy won't take a polly.
Speaker 1 (40:55):
So they could try to clear themselves so the cops
can move off. Do whoever really took the baby.
Speaker 9 (41:00):
As well as I do that the cops put extremely
heavy weight on the results of a polygraph test, and
if it comes to actually form of deception, the relationship
becomes ad the serial they then become an.
Speaker 1 (41:13):
Now have a cereal because they won't take it, all.
Speaker 9 (41:16):
The more reason for them not to. Why do you
think they even ask for the polygraph test? The cops
already suspect mom. They already suspect dad. Why give them
additional evidence. I would not do it, And if I
were their counsel, I would tell them to sit down
and shut up and don't say a word till I
get there.
Speaker 1 (41:32):
Okay, let me ask you a quickie. Do you have children?
Speaker 10 (41:35):
No?
Speaker 1 (41:36):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (41:36):
I want you to have children, and I don't care
how you go about getting them. I want you to
have a baby to love, because do they when that happens.
I'm not going to even hold your last answer against
you like I normally do, because when you have a baby,
everything changes. Oh I thought I was so happy and
then I had the twins. There's nothing like it. And
(42:01):
I want you to have that joy because when you
have that child, you don't matter anymore.
Speaker 1 (42:07):
They matter. They need to take the Polly.
Speaker 2 (42:11):
And as a matter of fact, the Valdi Foundation agrees listen.
Speaker 4 (42:17):
After Rebecca and Jake Harrow stop cooperating, the Evaldi Foundation
rescinds the reward money and ends their search efforts. The
founder says, we cannot in good conscience utilize our team
and resources when so much is missing. In this case.
A particular concern to us lies within the inconsistencies and
the details and the sudden decision by the mother to
in communication with law enforcement and our team. Something is
(42:41):
not writing this whole picture.
Speaker 2 (42:42):
Okay, so it's not just me, it's the foundation debate
is right under the constitution, they don't have to take
a polygraph and if they failed it or it was inconclusive,
they would then be under the umbrella off suspicion.
Speaker 1 (42:59):
And I say to that, so what this is not
about them?
Speaker 2 (43:04):
This is about Can we see a picture of this baby,
the poor little thing.
Speaker 1 (43:09):
If he's alive? Who has him? Is he being fed?
Is he alive? Do we have a chance to save him? Guys?
There's more listen.
Speaker 4 (43:21):
Officer's service search warrant at the Harrow home in Cabazon.
Speaker 13 (43:25):
Law enforcement is seen going in.
Speaker 4 (43:27):
And out of the house for over an hour, and
Emmanuel's grandmother says his two year old sister was removed
from the custody of Rebecca and Jake Harrow.
Speaker 2 (43:35):
Joey benedict that takes a lot to take a baby
away from a mom and dad. I can think of
dozens of examples right now where I wish the baby
had been taken, because now the babies did and Defacts Department,
Family Showner Services won't take the baby. They let it
stay there and die. So something had to lead authorities
(43:57):
to take the sister out of the Huh that said,
tell me about the search of their place, Well.
Speaker 6 (44:05):
They searched the place initially from what we're told.
Speaker 5 (44:08):
They also came back yesterday while.
Speaker 6 (44:10):
We were there and we could see them knocking on
the door trying to get in.
Speaker 5 (44:13):
But nobody was there. And that's kind of the issue.
We don't know where these parents are at least now.
They're not responding to my phone calls and text messages anymore.
Speaker 6 (44:21):
Neither is the grandmother, as you just heard them say,
neither with the organization. So we don't know where they are.
But we know that they did search the home. We
don't know what they found, if anything, but it is
also our understanding that they took the two year old. Now,
what the family told me on Friday was that they
have six children together, that they are a blended family,
(44:42):
two biological children between the two of them, and four
others that they collectively have, so six total.
Speaker 1 (44:49):
Doctor John Delatori.
Speaker 2 (44:50):
For insic psychologists, it's not just about refusing to take
a Polly the parents are gone. Where are the parents?
I can tell you this much. They're not outsearching for
baby Emmanuel.
Speaker 1 (45:01):
So that's bad.
Speaker 13 (45:03):
It's real bad, Nancy. And again it goes back to intentionality.
Why are they saying and why are they behaving in
an inconsistent dinner if they're in goal was to find
baby am Manual, why go into hiding again. I understand
not wanting to take the polygraph, but that doesn't mean
you go hide away and not interact with police anymore.
(45:24):
The clock is still ticking, and the best witness that
we have, such as it is, is Rebecca Harrow and
now she's gone to So Philip D.
Speaker 2 (45:32):
Bay, you were explaining why you would tell your clients
not to take a polly. I guess you would tell
them not to search for their baby too. How would
that make them look bad? I'm just curious.
Speaker 9 (45:44):
Well, initially they were, but now there is this cloud
of suspicion. Every move they make, every word they say,
every action they take is now being scrutinized. And they
don't want to be subject to that type of scrutiny.
I mean, what else can they do make.
Speaker 2 (46:00):
More important than finding the baby? I can't wait for
you to have a baby. If you know or think
you know anything about the disappearance of baby and manual
just seven months old, please please dial nine zero nine
three eight seven eight three one three. You may think
it's insignificant, but it may not be. Nine zero nine
(46:23):
three eight seven eight three one three. And now we
remember an American hero. Sergeant Joe Oliveris, Department Criminal Justice, Texas,
killed in the line of duty, leaving behind three grieving children.
American hero Sergeant Joe Oliveris Nancy Grace signing off goodbye friend,
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Mommy's frantic please after baby Emmanuel, just seven months old,
is kidnapped during an attack outside a sporting good store tonight,
inconsistencies emerge that bothers me when LA law enforcement tells
(00:28):
me there are inconsistencies, I'm just telling you right now,
we got a problem. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.
I want to thank you for being with us.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
San Bernardino. Mom arrives at a sporting goods store on
a quiet Thursday evening with her infant son, Emmanuel, but
minutes later, a violent attack unfolds in the store parking
lot and baby Emmanuel is gone.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
What happened to baby Emmanuel just seven months old?
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Control room? I would like to see some shots of
this baby.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
If you know or think you know anything about the
whereabouts of this beautiful child.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Beautiful?
Speaker 2 (01:12):
How many people across our country would give their it
to have a baby, People struggling to have babies, people
that want another baby, people that attached to this baby
and want to raise the baby, that.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
Pay tens of thousands of dollars. Where is a manual?
If you know or think you know anything?
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Nine zero nine three eight seven eight three one three
repeat nine zero nine three eight seven eight three one three.
As we like to say in the low time, is
of the essence. In other words, every minute counts. Joining
me in All Star panel to make sense of what
(01:56):
we know right now, But first.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Listen to this.
Speaker 4 (02:00):
Seventy miles east of Los Angeles in Ukaipa, Rebecca Harrow
steps done needs a new mouthpiece for football. She heads
to a sporting good store with seven month old Emmanuel.
Rebecca Harrow realizes baby Emmanuel dirtied his diaper, and she
prepares to change his diaper before going into the store.
Rebecca Horrow places baby Emmanuel next to his car seat
to change his diaper. When she hears a man say
(02:21):
oh lah. Before she can return the greeting, she has
knocked unconscious. When she wakes up, baby Emmanuel is gone.
Rebecca Horrow races inside the Big five and asks an
employee if she has seen a baby or a person
with a baby come into the store. Nine to one
one is called at seven forty five.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Joining me right now, Joy Benedict, you know her well,
investigative reporter CBSLA. She's been on a story from the
very beginning. Joy, Thank you for being with us tonight.
Let's start at the beginning. What happened.
Speaker 5 (02:52):
Well, we heard.
Speaker 6 (02:53):
About this on Thursday night when the call came out
saying that there was a reported kidnapping.
Speaker 5 (02:58):
It happened in you Kaipo, which is.
Speaker 6 (02:59):
An hour and a half east of Los Angeles and
San Bernardino County. And that's when they first got the
call from someone of the Big Five.
Speaker 5 (03:08):
Say my baby has been taken. I need help. So
the Sheriff's department rushes to the Big Five parking lot.
Speaker 6 (03:15):
That is where they find the mother, Rebecca Harrow, and
she is frantic.
Speaker 5 (03:20):
And upset, and she says.
Speaker 6 (03:22):
You know what, my child was taken, but I don't
know what happened. And in the very beginning, there were
things like no amper alert was issued, right there weren't
any there wasn't any security video for the Sheriff's department.
Speaker 7 (03:36):
To go on.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Wa wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait, Joy, Benedette,
you've got me drinking from the fire hydra here. And
I know from missing people cases, especially children, every detailed
count and you have the facts.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
Guy's Joy has.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Been on the case since baby Emmanuel was first reported missing.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
Tonight. Where is this baby? Did it go down the
way we're being told?
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Also with me, in addition to Benedict, is a longtime colleague,
Brian Fitzgibbons. Brian the director of Operations at USPA Nationwide Security.
He leads a team of investigator specializing in finding missing
people at uspasecurity dot Com.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
Okay, Brian, thank you for being with us tonight.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
I want to quickly point out we're hearing about inconsistencies
in what happened. But wouldn't you agree with me. I'm
not defending anybody. I'm not prosecuting anybody. I want to
find this baby, and I want to find the baby alive.
The mother says. Rebecca Harrow says her step son needs
(04:42):
a new mouthpiece for football. Okay, I'm projecting, but many
times at the last minute, I've run to Dick's Sporting
Goods or target or wherever I can get as fast
as I can get to get on shin guards because.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
John Davy cannot play. Can I get on the field without.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
The shin guards? Or I please guess what last year's
don't fit? We didn't replace them in time. All sorts
of things happen at the last minute. Okay, So maybe
I'm projecting, but I get it. And also this would
be hard to fake because if there is a football practice, right,
that's easily verified. If he didn't have a mouthpiece, that's
(05:20):
easily verified. But it ends right there because she never
goes in to buy the mouthpiece. But those facts can
be verified, can they not? Fitzgibbons.
Speaker 8 (05:34):
Absolutely, You're bringing in other witnesses that are going to
be able to corroborate and validate what the mother is saying.
Was the child allowed to enter the field if the
answers know from the coach he didn't have his mouthpiece?
You know, now we can verify that that piece of
the story at least was true.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
And I'm guessing.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
I'm guessing that other people were there and saw maybe
a manual at that time. I don't know that piece
of the puzzle yet, but I'm finding it out. Okay,
back to Joy Benedict, who has all the facts far
beyond what I in the panel knows. She's been on
the ground studying the case. Okay, you started with a call,
(06:15):
a call my baby is missing. What do we know
about the call? What was said specifically in that call?
Speaker 1 (06:21):
Words matter? Even one word matters.
Speaker 5 (06:24):
She said, the baby was kidnapped.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
Joy, What were the circumstances mommy related at that time
as to how the seven month old baby was taken?
Speaker 5 (06:33):
Well, I spoke to her the very next morning, so
I spoke to her at the Big Five.
Speaker 6 (06:37):
She agreed to do in view with us because at
that time she was frantically searching for a child. And
what she told me in that interview was that she
had left the park with her step son and left
their two year old daughter with the father to go
and get that mouthguard from the Big five parking lot
not too far away in Ukaipa, which is about an
hour and a half east of Los Angeles and San
(06:59):
Bernadi County, And she had gone to the parking lot,
and she said when she got out of their pickup
truck from the front seat and went to grab her
baby in the back seat, she said she could smell
that his diaper needed changing, so she laid him there
on the back seat behind the driver's side door, because
she said she was on the driver's side and she
(07:20):
started to change her diaper when someone attacked her. She
said she didn't see him, and then she woke up
a few seconds later, she blacked out and she woke
up and the baby was gone.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Now here's another fact. She smells the dirty dip. She's
at the parking lot at Big Five and I need
to talk to you about surveillance video. You were there
on to find out about cams. But she smells the
dirty dip. She gets out of the truck. He assume
is in a baby seat in the back seat. She
gets him out and then she's attacked.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
But isn't it true? She says she hears a man
say ola.
Speaker 5 (07:56):
Yes, that is what she told me.
Speaker 6 (07:58):
She said she heard her man say ola, but she
didn't see him, and he attacked her from behind her.
Speaker 5 (08:05):
But the black eye is in front and so I.
Speaker 6 (08:07):
Did ask her about her injuries, and she said that
she was punched, which was one of the inconsistencies that
were discussed later.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
On Okay, you know what.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
Philip Dubay joining us in addition to investigative reporter from
CBSLA on the story from the get go, Joey Benedict
Brian Fitzgibbons. Now, I'm bringing in Philip Debay, a veteran
defense attorney, joining us out of the La County jurisdiction debay. Again,
I'm not defending or prosecuting anybody, but I do not
(08:41):
find that inconsistent. The fact that she was first attacked
from behind does not preclude then getting a.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Punch in the eye.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
It also does not preclude her falling forward and hitting
the eye. So right now, I don't see an inconsistency,
of course not.
Speaker 9 (09:00):
I mean, the lady told her story, and it's it's
up to the casual observer as to whether or not
they believe it. And from where I am sitting right now,
nothing is contradicting it.
Speaker 1 (09:10):
Let's hear it from the horse's mouth.
Speaker 10 (09:13):
I was going to get the diaper and somebody said oil,
and I don't welcome right here on the floor.
Speaker 11 (09:22):
And I didn't see manuel.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
That from our friends A k t l A Crime
Stories with Nancy Grace joining me.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
Now, Tom Rawlings, the President of Child Welfare and Justice Transformation,
former juvenile court judge, juvenile court judge overseeing juvenile infractions
and crimes, child advocate.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
It goes on and on and on.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
He's the author of protecting other people's children one hundred
and twenty days to create a strong child safety policy.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
Okay, Tom, thank you for being with us.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
The reason we're all looking at the mom is because
she's the last one to.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Be with the baby that we know of.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
And isn't it true when children go missing, typically you
can point to a family member, a relative, or someone
in the close network of the family, and that just
goes with the territory. I'm not singling her out. I'm
not singling the dad out, the stepdad, not not. I
just know what statistics are explain.
Speaker 12 (10:35):
I think there are a lot of questions to look
at here because what other evidence was available? Did anyone
see a.
Speaker 9 (10:41):
Man wandering upout around the parking lot.
Speaker 12 (10:43):
I'm looking for a child to kidnap? Were there any
other businesses, surveilance videos?
Speaker 2 (10:50):
Okay, wait right there, Tom, hold on, hold on, Tom,
I don't think it's that easy. Yes, in theory, I
agree with you. But Brian Fitzgibbons, you know child abductors, kidnappers, molesters.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
They can look like the choir director.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
You're not going to see somebody walking through the parking
lot at the Big five Sporting Goods in a trench
coat and bare legs and a pair of socks and
dress shoes with sunglasses.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
And hat On. It's not that stereotypical.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
So to say, did anybody see a child predator wandering
around the parking lot? Yes, in theory, he's absolutely right,
but we don't know what that might look like.
Speaker 8 (11:32):
Well, I think mister Rawlings brought up a great point.
This can't be a random act. Okay, you know, the
abductor would have had to known that the mouthguard would
be missing.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
The abductor would have to have been waiting.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
I can't believe I'm about to argue with Brian Fitzgibbons. Fitzgibbons, Huh,
it's something wrong my ifp Jackie, because I thought he
just said the abductor would have to know about the
missing mouthpiece. I've never heard anything so crazy in my life. Well,
maybe I have, but this is equally as crazy as
all of that.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Chris Gimmons, that's not.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
True predators, troll playgrounds. This is a sporting goods store
where there's an open parking lot, open parking lot where
kids go in to get their sporting equipment, and it's
just like hanging out at the ice cream store or
the playground. You don't have to know the mouthpiece is missing.
(12:30):
Several miles away and then follow the mom and the baby.
Although that is a possibility. You could just be hanging
out in the parking lot and go, hey, whoa a baby?
Speaker 1 (12:40):
It happens. I mean, let me think, wha Cherish Periwinkle?
Speaker 2 (12:45):
Remember that the killer, the killer who raped satom eyed
and murdered little Cherish Periwinkle, was just wandering around. I
think it was the Dollar General. He sees mommy and
three little girls. He's like bam, target and he gets
the child under a roofs and murders her.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
He didn't follow the mommy to the Dollar General. No,
that did not happen. I don't know what you're saying.
Have you lost your mind?
Speaker 8 (13:12):
Well, I can agree with you that it does happen,
but I think we can both agree that this would
be a wild statistical anomaly that first of all, the
age of the child seven months old. You know the
predominance of suspects in these cases are going to be women,
all right, taking a child that's this young, all right.
The second thing is this is in a public place,
(13:34):
a random act.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
Okay, okay, Well, what I want to break down what
you just said. And I'm not saying you're wrong, but
you just skimmed over it. That's an important point you said,
And I want you to explain in depth why if
there was a kidnapping, it was likely a woman because
mommy says she hears a man say olah, and then
(13:59):
she is a packed by a man. Okay, A physical
attack of that nature is more stereotypically, not stereotypically, but
according to statistics, would be affected.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
By a man.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
A woman would come up and surreptitiously grab the baby
while mom's not looking, or some sneaky or crafty way
of getting the baby.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
Not just go, you know, beat the.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
Mom over the head and drag her off and get
the baby. That's a man, but you said typically perpetrated
by a woman. That's very subtle but significant point. So
explain to me why you said that.
Speaker 8 (14:46):
The explanation here is statistics. When you're dealing with a
victim of that young of an age in you know,
the zero to seven months, zero to a year old,
the statistics tell these are typically women perpetrating those crimes.
You know, now as you get older, a four or
five year old grab from the dollar general, grab from
(15:08):
the playground, you know, the perpetrators of those crimes are
typically met. But in this case, it's already a statistical
anomaly to say that a man physically attacked in this,
you know, apparently random act to take an infant.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Okay, you know what, just off the top of my head,
You've got J. C. Duger, You've got I could just
name them off, just like that, where men do randomly
grab a child. This is this is not outside the
realm of possibility. And the mom says she hurt a man,
(15:43):
not a woman.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
What is your point?
Speaker 8 (15:46):
The point that I'm making is this is beginning the
story unfolding is a statistical anomaly. It's very difficult to believe, okay,
that we're we're looking at these circumstances, and if I
line it up with the overwhelming amount of data, a
man perpetrating this random act is it's possible, certainly possible,
(16:08):
but highly unlikely.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
And Brian, I'm not attacking you.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
I'm just trying to find the baby.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
You're right, the.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
Desire to have a baby is overwhelmingly a female desire.
I'll give you a good example. The example of let's
see what was her name? Dy Nail Lane is one
that just comes to mind. A thirty four year old female.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
Who had lost a baby.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
Her baby had a drowning accident, and she went so
far as to find a pregnant mom and cut the
baby out of the wound. We've heard of those cases, right,
there are many of them. Surprisingly, they're almost always done,
I could say, always done by a female if the
motivation is Okay, again, a subtle but important distinction in
(17:06):
your theory. If the motivation is to have your own baby, yes,
it's a woman, absolutely a woman. But if the motivation
is to get the baby and sell the baby or
molest the baby, that's a man. So until we know
(17:27):
the motivation, fitz Gibbons, we can't say.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
Man or woman.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
So your theory is flawed because we don't know a motivation.
It could be a man, it could be a woman,
and mommy says it was a man. See where I'm
going with this? Why motivation is so important?
Speaker 8 (17:42):
Yeah, I'll con see it and agree that this is
very possible. It's possible, right, But there's a difference between
possible and probable, And you know, the statistics would tell
us that this is not probable, albeit that it is
indeed possible.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
Guys, all of our machinations and our analysis aside. And
this is exactly what law enforcement is doing right now
as we speak. They're pulling twenty four to seven shifts
trying to find this baby. Let's help them. All of
our analysis aside. This seven month old baby has been taken.
(18:22):
Who took him? Where is he is? He's still alive.
Regardless of what you may believe. The only evidence we
have right now is what mommy is telling us.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
Let's take it. Listen from our friends at KTLA, I was.
Speaker 11 (18:40):
Gonna get the diaper and somebody said oil, and I don't.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
I'll look right here on the floor.
Speaker 11 (18:48):
And I didn't see Manuel.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
From our friends KTLA, where is baby Emmanuel?
Speaker 2 (18:53):
Just seven months old? Mystery surrounding the search for Emmanuel?
Speaker 1 (19:00):
Is he dead? Is he alive? Who has baby im Manual?
Speaker 2 (19:05):
What happened at the time he was kidnapped in a
public parking lot? According to mommy, Listen, and I.
Speaker 11 (19:13):
Said, as I got up, I couldn't find my son.
Speaker 10 (19:16):
I checked the around my truck, and I ran into
Big Five and I asked the lady if she saw.
Speaker 11 (19:22):
A baby or someone with a baby.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
She said no.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
This from our friends at ABC seven, straight out to
doctor John Delatory, renowned psychologist specializing in forensic psychology, Doctor Delatory,
thank you for being with us. I'm sure you have
analyzed every word, every mannerism from mommy analysis.
Speaker 13 (19:46):
I mean, there's a level of emotion that I think
most people would expect a frantic mother to be experiencing. Right,
She's kind of huffing and puffing, right, She's kind of
like have shallow breathing. Right, There's elements that we would
kind of expect a mother to kind of have, but
each individual is just a little bit different in how
(20:06):
that expression is really gonna go. My concern is that
it seems shallow. My concern is that it doesn't seem
like it's coming up from a well of struggle and
anxiety and fear and anger. Doesn't really seem to be
coming from a place like that. It just seems to
(20:27):
be kind of.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
For a show.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
I don't know where you're getting that. I'm not disagreeing
with you or agreeing with you, but I do know this.
I apport over every single word. Let's hear Rebecca Harrow again.
Speaker 11 (20:40):
And I said, as I got up, I couldn't find
my son.
Speaker 10 (20:43):
I checked the around my truck and I ran into
big five, and I asked the lady if she saw
a baby or someone with a baby.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
She said, no, hmm, that's where our friend's at ABC seven.
And you're sticking with your analysis, delatory that you think
it's contrived.
Speaker 13 (21:01):
Yes, because it sounds correct. It sounds like the thing
that we should be hearing. Well, when you see her face,
her face doesn't show elements that she's actually been crying. Right,
her eyes aren't red from tears, right, there aren't tears
actually falling down, right, It's it sounds correct, But the behaviors,
(21:23):
the mannerisms, things are inconsistent. Right, when someone is feeling something,
genuinely feeling something, the body and the emotions and the words,
they all are linked together.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
Okay, you know what.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
I was listening to what she was saying. But now
let's watch her as she speaks. And then we're going
to go out to Joy Benedict, who has interviewed mommy.
But let's watch for ourselves. Let's watch Rebecca Harrow is delatory, right,
And I.
Speaker 11 (21:55):
Said, as I got up, I couldn't find my son.
Speaker 10 (21:58):
I checked the all around truck and I'm ran into
Big five and I asked the lady if she saw
a baby or someone with a baby.
Speaker 11 (22:07):
She said, no, that.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
From our friends again at ABC seven Dolatory. You're right,
she's not crying at all. And again I've told you
this before. Maybe I'm projecting, but when John David went
missing in a vast at Baby zero superstore, I immediately
started screaming at the top of my lungs and grabbed
(22:28):
Lucy his twin like a football, started running toward the
front the exit that I knew of to try to
find him. He was playing a game. He's you know,
a little over two hiding.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
Okay, so yeah, I'm not seeing any of that.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
Although this is much later in the day or even
day two, when she's stating that maybe she's drained, I
don't know. And again I'm not defending or prosecuting. I'm
just looking at the facts, because if you don't look
at the facts objection in a new objective manner, you're screwed.
You can't go into an investigation thinking one thing or
(23:05):
the other. Joining me now, Joy Benedict, she is an
investigative reporter CBSLA. She's been on the story from the
get go. She's interviewed the mom that you just saw
and the Dad, I want to hear about her demeanor, Joy,
when you interviewed her, I.
Speaker 6 (23:21):
Mean, I thought she was beside herself. I found her
grief very, very real. It was heartbreaking to listen to her.
It was freaking to talk to her. And no, she
didn't have big crocodile dial tears coming down her face.
Speaker 5 (23:35):
But a lot of people don't. I mean, I've.
Speaker 6 (23:37):
Interviewed crime victims for twenty five years within hours of
the crime happening, and they all don't cry, some of
them laugh, some of them solve, some of them don't
want to speak at all.
Speaker 5 (23:47):
So there is no you know, this is what grief
looks like. And I found her grief and her pain.
I found it very real where it was coming from.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
We don't know, Okay, Joy Benedict, does her story hold together?
Speaker 6 (24:02):
You know, I don't think that's my place to say.
I think there's definitely some things that are missing in
the story. But you know, that's what DETESL are looking into,
and they're trying to figure out right now because there
weren't any cameras, there weren't any witnesses. Nobody has come forward,
so it's basically her word that this child was kidnapped.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
Okay, Joy, you mentioned that elements are missing. What elements, Well.
Speaker 6 (24:24):
It's very odd that there is no security video there
in the Big five parking lot. There wasn't much security
video at any of the businesses around. There was no
one else with her in the parking lot when this
incident took place. There was no witnesses, and so it's
basically her word calling the police saying my child was kidnapped.
They didn't even have enough to put out an amber
(24:45):
alert because they didn't have a description of a vehicle.
Speaker 5 (24:48):
They didn't have a description of a suspect. So you know, that's.
Speaker 6 (24:51):
Where you know people's red flags are coming up.
Speaker 5 (24:54):
But that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
Speaker 6 (24:56):
As you've said on the show, it doesn't mean it
couldn't have happened.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
Yeah, here's wh problem, Joy Benedict. If you go into
an investigation pre judged, you're only shooting yourself in the foot.
Everyone is piling on Mommy tonight, and she is the
last person with the baby. She is the person who
(25:20):
was on watch when the baby was taken. It's not
her fault that there are no cameras in that parking lot,
which I find really odd.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
Is that correct? No cameras in the parking lot.
Speaker 6 (25:34):
There are no cameras in the park lot. I've been
in that parking lot for hours. No cameras is in
the Big five next to it is a big lots.
I don't even think that was open anymore. Across the street,
there wasn't much. It doesn't have a camera.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
In it did not Okay, no cameras, no witnesses, nobody
else is in the parking lot. Again, if you pile
on mommy right now, that's misdirection and you're not going
to find the baby ever or until it's too late
if you go in the in the wrong direction. So
there's got to be a dual path of investigation. Right now,
(26:09):
I'm trying to figure out why everyone is piling onto mommy.
I have my suspicions. Let's listen to what else she said.
Speaker 11 (26:17):
Who's a happy boy? He smile my kend you love
to kiss him?
Speaker 1 (26:23):
Okay, right there, big problem.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
He was a happy boy, he smiled past, tense, I
loved to kiss him.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
That's for our friends at ABC seven.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
Wait a minute, Dave mac, is she referring to her
baby in the past?
Speaker 7 (26:47):
Tense I think she is talking about her baby in
the past tense, Nancy, when she says he was happy.
You just listen to those little subtle things she's saying,
and she is referring to him in the past tense.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
Okay, too, away, Benedict, investigator reporter CBS LA, you don't
have a problem with that, because I really do.
Speaker 6 (27:06):
I think people say a lot of things when they're grieving.
I'm not going to say I don't have a problem
with it, or I didn't hear it in our interview
as well, because she also spoke about him in past
tense at least once, but she also talked about him
in present tents for the majority of the place. She
accidentally also called him as she once. So, I think
when you are grieving and you are speaking very fast
and you're doing a lot of interviews, there's going to
(27:27):
be some inconsistencies in what you say, and I think
part of that is just natural speak, especially when you're
in front of cameras for probably the first time in
your life.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
That's a lot of explaining away as to why she
talked about her baby in the past tense.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
Also, you said grieving.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
I don't know, do you know something I don't know,
has the baby been found dead.
Speaker 6 (27:46):
I'm just saying grief comes in a lot of different
ways when someone is kidnapped versus if the baby is dead.
I think grief can be a lot of things. It
doesn't have to mean that a child is dead. And no,
I don't know, you don't know, We don't know right now,
open to find this baby. I think everyone is doutor
John Delatory.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
I agree with that last statement from Joey Benedict joining
us out of CBSLA, But I do have a problem
referring to a mom and dad referring to the baby
in the past tense. When I'm trying to find the baby.
They're volunteers trying to find the baby. It's very reminiscent
of other individuals that have referred to missing people in
(28:25):
the past tense. I'm referring specifically to Scott Peterson who
went on National TV and referred to Lacy during the
search for Lacy in the past tense.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
Listen, we took care of each other very well. She's amazing.
Speaker 8 (28:44):
He is amazing.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
That from our friends at ABC, what do you make
of it?
Speaker 13 (28:48):
Delatory intentionality, Listen, no one is expecting people to be
media savvy at the worst moments of their lives. No
one is expecting someone to be consistent into when they're
experiencing fear, anger, stress, anxiety, panic, right anger, sadness, depression.
No one is expecting any of those things. But if
(29:10):
your intention is to find someone, then you will be responding.
You will be interacting with others with that intention. And
I'll just say this, if you come away from someone thinking, Wow,
they're really experiencing grief when there's no reason to be
experiencing grief as a result of the loss of a
(29:31):
loved one, then maybe you're picking up on something that
the person is trying to hide.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
Where is seven month old baby Emmanuel? We were discussing
mommy referring to baby Emmanuel and the past tense.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
But it's not just mommy. Listen, it was a healthy baby.
It was crawling, he was kickkating, he was playing with
his toys.
Speaker 11 (29:55):
Whoever took our sons, please give them back?
Speaker 2 (30:01):
Okay again from our friends at ABC seven, Philip Dubay,
Neither one of the parents are crying. Go ahead, second verse,
same as the first. There's no playbook for grief. Go ahead,
hit me, I'm ready there.
Speaker 9 (30:15):
Is no almanac for how parents are supposed to react
when their kid has been abduct There's just no way
predict how each person's individuality is going to play out,
either in the media or privately amongst themselves. And it's
unfair to hold everybody's individual reactions against them short of
a confession or some admission of cold ability. Let them
(30:37):
grieve privately and don't try to read into every aspect
of what they're saying and how they present. Otherwise, we
tend to taint future jury pools into not believing anybody
and nobody will ever report a missing child.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
Okay, now you have taken a monumental leak to future juries,
not even on this case, but the and the never
ending future about how our analysis of the last person
with this baby is behaving, enter tainting jury pools into
future future jury trials. Okay, you know what, Brian Fitzgibbons,
(31:14):
Let's break it down. Regardless of what Dubey says, neither
one of the parents are crying. And that may mean
nothing to a gurrr, it may mean a lot to
a GRR. And I'd like to point out mom and
dad are innocent. Right now, I don't have anything suggesting
they took the baby or harm the baby. Yet, I'm
(31:35):
just trying to find the baby, and their demeanors are
important to me.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
If it's Gibbons, yeah, it.
Speaker 8 (31:41):
Certainly means something here in the court of public opinion.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
Tears or no tears. Let's move forward with what we know.
Speaker 4 (31:47):
Listen, just before eight pm Thursday night, Sam Bernardino Sheriffs
arrive and begin searching the Strip Mall in parking lot.
Canine units are dispatched to the scene as well helicopters overhead.
Sam Bernardino Sharf's department joined my neighboring rivers County Deputies
to aid any comprehensive search that stretches through the night.
Speaker 2 (32:04):
So it was not just sand Bernardino Sheriffs. They get
help from their neighbors. Riverside County Deputies tell me about
the search and Joy Benedict yees.
Speaker 6 (32:14):
So they did a lot right that initial night is
when they had the canine units out, they had the
helicopter of they were looking for any signs of baby Emmanual.
Speaker 5 (32:23):
There weren't any.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
So let me understand, Joy Benedict, the mother and father
are out physically searching for Emmanuel, but the Big Five
on Friday.
Speaker 6 (32:32):
They had flyers, they were handing them out. People in
the community were sh up. Everyone was doing what they
could to try and find this baby.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
Okay, so in a nutshell, yes, the parents are out searching.
Very often when a loved one is under suspicion, they're
not out searching. These parents are out searching, putting up
flyers about the search.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
Tell me about the canine search. What happened That all.
Speaker 5 (33:01):
Happened on Thursday night very quickly.
Speaker 6 (33:03):
They did not get a cent, so the Sheriff's department
deployed the canines immediately.
Speaker 5 (33:08):
They didn't get a scent there.
Speaker 6 (33:10):
I believe they also sent the dines of other places
outside of where the Big Five was, but without a cent,
there's not much of a search.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
Okay, Brians Gibbons, that's a problem is you will recall
I'll just use Peterson, which is a great example, but
there are many, many other similar cases.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
A dog picked up Lacey's scent.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
They're at the home, their home she shared with husband
Scott Peterson in Modesto and followed the scent all the
way to the marina.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
At San Francisco Bay. Now, if there's no scent, that's
a problem.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
There should be a sent for Pete's sake, he had
a dirty dipe. There should be a scent of this baby,
shouldn't there.
Speaker 1 (33:56):
That certainly is a problem.
Speaker 8 (33:58):
No sent in the parking lot is you know, these
dogs are very highly trained and we have case after
case that they will pick up a cent with a
very high degree of accuracy. So no sent in the
parking lot, no video. We're lacking a lot of physical
idents that Emmanuel was actually in that Big five parking lot.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
And since we're on Scott Peterson, Tom Rowlings joining me,
President Child Welfare, Justice Transformation, former juvenile Court Judge Tom, again,
thank you for being with us.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
If you will recall there.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
Was a lot of public speculation because Peterson would not
go on air and make a plea to help find
his missing wife and unborn son. We all know now
is because he was embroiled in a sex affair with
Amber Fry, who had no idea until then that he
was married. That's why he didn't want to go public.
(34:54):
But I want you to hear this, Tom Rowlings, the
parents do go public.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
Listen.
Speaker 4 (34:58):
The parents of missing baby a manual, Rebecca and Jay
Carrow appear on local news begging for the return of
their son. Rebecca appears with a black eye she says
is from the attacker. They're emotional pleas bring out volunteers
in the community as well as groups like Uvaldi Foundation
for Kids. Evaldi offers a five thousand dollar reward and
are also providing an independent search for the baby. A
(35:20):
candlelight vigilist scheduled to bring more awareness for baby Emmanual.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
So after the parents speak Tom Rawlings, the Uvalde Foundation
for Children gets into action. They start independent searches. Not
that the police failed in their search, but this is
to help we see it all the time.
Speaker 1 (35:40):
They offer a reward.
Speaker 2 (35:42):
There's a candlelight vigil to bring awareness to baby Manual's disappearance.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
So the parents do go public and face the cameras well.
Sure as I'm not.
Speaker 12 (35:50):
Sure that I'm not sure that curse. So we know
that if the child's is actually then kid app that
certainly the parents would act to this one. They would
be out looking for the child, they would be in grief.
But we also know that if something else happened to
the child, and the parents knew that something had happened
(36:11):
with the child, that having told a story, they would
have to follow through in fact, like they were looking
for the child. This would not be the first time
we've seen a parent who perhaps there were questions about
whether or not the child disappeared or was somehow harmed
by someone in the family. We've seen situations where these
(36:34):
parents have been part of the search before, until it
comes out that in some of these cases that the
parent was responsible, not suggesting not here, but assistant with
either the truth or a lie here if they were child.
Speaker 2 (36:53):
Okay, so you're saying that the fact that they are
out searching neither hurts nor helps.
Speaker 1 (36:59):
Is that right? Is that what you're saying?
Speaker 2 (37:01):
Right?
Speaker 12 (37:02):
So, if they're out searching because say I want to
hear where their child is, that's right. If they're out
searching because they've already told a worried about half what
happened to their they got a follow through with that
pictest story. They got to look sick with a.
Speaker 1 (37:18):
Lot crime stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 4 (37:30):
Police interview both parents as well as other witnesses, and
when parts of the story being told by Rebecca are inconsistent,
law enforcement asks if the couple will take a polygraph test.
Jake Harrow tells investigators, they will not take a polygraph
test without a lawyer present, and cooperation between the parents
and law enforcement ends. One witness tells police Harrow had
(37:50):
a black eye before Emmanuel went missing.
Speaker 1 (37:53):
What they refuse a polygraph?
Speaker 3 (37:57):
Uh?
Speaker 2 (37:58):
A witness says mom had that black eye before the
attack and the Big five parking lot, Joy Benedict, What,
that's what witnesses are saying.
Speaker 5 (38:07):
That's what some people have said.
Speaker 6 (38:08):
But there's a lot of rumors that are spreading around
the area right now. Every neighbor, everybody in that community
seems to have an opinion. So I obviously don't know
if she had that black eye prior to Friday or not.
When I saw her, she had a black eye. It
could have been the beaches, it could have been in
the end stages.
Speaker 1 (38:24):
Okay, what about refusing to take a polygraph? Joy?
Speaker 6 (38:30):
I mean, I'm not a lawyer, but if someone asked
me to take a polygraph test, and that would make
me believe that maybe all of a sudden a suspect
and I would ask for a lawyer.
Speaker 5 (38:39):
I mean, wouldn't you.
Speaker 2 (38:40):
Know if my child were missing? No, let me just
spell it out. H E L L N oh no,
I would take the polygraph, I would slow down, gum
up the works.
Speaker 1 (38:59):
Dave Mac, have you ever heard of Mark Class? Absolutely
Nancy the gold standard?
Speaker 2 (39:07):
When his daughter poly Class was abducted from her mom's
own home during a sleepover, abused and murdered by Richard
Allen May, he wrought in hell when the cops came
to classes door. You know what, he said, search me,
take my fingerprints, take my DNA, search my house, search
(39:29):
my car, search my place. Get me out of the
way so you can find who took my daughter.
Speaker 1 (39:35):
Do you remember that, Dave Mac like it was yesterday?
Speaker 14 (39:39):
Because nobody believed him. Nobody thought, you know, this is crazy.
Nobody gets kidnapped out of a bedroom during his sleepover,
out of their own home. But I do remember Mark
Class stood from me, he planted his feet and said,
eliminate me as a suspect and find the real person.
Speaker 1 (39:56):
I mean, Dave, understand me.
Speaker 2 (39:59):
I'm yelling at you. I'm yelling about this situation. I'm
yelling about this baby gone. And mommy and daddy won't
take a polygraph, so they can either be cleared or
be under the umbrella of suspicion.
Speaker 1 (40:15):
So you know what, if you fail the polly.
Speaker 2 (40:17):
Let's talk about that, Dobey, Say, mommy and daddy fail
the polly, but they're innocent.
Speaker 1 (40:23):
That will be born out.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
A polygraph cannot come into evidence unless it's agreed upon
stipulated by the defense and the prosecution ahead of time
at trial, so that would never come into trial, so
a it would clear them be if they fail it.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
Yeah, I'm gonna look at them, but that doesn't mean
they're guilty.
Speaker 2 (40:41):
They could lie about something as simple as hey, we've
smoked pot before.
Speaker 1 (40:45):
I'm gonna lie about that. That has nothing to do
with the baby's disappearance.
Speaker 2 (40:49):
My point is I've got a problem when mommy and
daddy won't take a polly.
Speaker 1 (40:55):
So they could try to clear themselves so the cops
can move off. Do whoever really took the baby.
Speaker 9 (41:00):
As well as I do that the cops put extremely
heavy weight on the results of a polygraph test, and
if it comes to actually form of deception, the relationship
becomes ad the serial they then become an.
Speaker 1 (41:13):
Now have a cereal because they won't take it, all.
Speaker 9 (41:16):
The more reason for them not to. Why do you
think they even ask for the polygraph test? The cops
already suspect mom. They already suspect dad. Why give them
additional evidence. I would not do it, And if I
were their counsel, I would tell them to sit down
and shut up and don't say a word till I
get there.
Speaker 1 (41:32):
Okay, let me ask you a quickie. Do you have children?
Speaker 10 (41:35):
No?
Speaker 1 (41:36):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (41:36):
I want you to have children, and I don't care
how you go about getting them. I want you to
have a baby to love, because do they when that happens.
I'm not going to even hold your last answer against
you like I normally do, because when you have a baby,
everything changes. Oh I thought I was so happy and
then I had the twins. There's nothing like it. And
(42:01):
I want you to have that joy because when you
have that child, you don't matter anymore.
Speaker 1 (42:07):
They matter. They need to take the Polly.
Speaker 2 (42:11):
And as a matter of fact, the Valdi Foundation agrees listen.
Speaker 4 (42:17):
After Rebecca and Jake Harrow stop cooperating, the Evaldi Foundation
rescinds the reward money and ends their search efforts. The
founder says, we cannot in good conscience utilize our team
and resources when so much is missing. In this case.
A particular concern to us lies within the inconsistencies and
the details and the sudden decision by the mother to
in communication with law enforcement and our team. Something is
(42:41):
not writing this whole picture.
Speaker 2 (42:42):
Okay, so it's not just me, it's the foundation debate
is right under the constitution, they don't have to take
a polygraph and if they failed it or it was inconclusive,
they would then be under the umbrella off suspicion.
Speaker 1 (42:59):
And I say to that, so what this is not
about them?
Speaker 2 (43:04):
This is about Can we see a picture of this baby,
the poor little thing.
Speaker 1 (43:09):
If he's alive? Who has him? Is he being fed?
Is he alive? Do we have a chance to save him? Guys?
There's more listen.
Speaker 4 (43:21):
Officer's service search warrant at the Harrow home in Cabazon.
Speaker 13 (43:25):
Law enforcement is seen going in.
Speaker 4 (43:27):
And out of the house for over an hour, and
Emmanuel's grandmother says his two year old sister was removed
from the custody of Rebecca and Jake Harrow.
Speaker 2 (43:35):
Joey benedict that takes a lot to take a baby
away from a mom and dad. I can think of
dozens of examples right now where I wish the baby
had been taken, because now the babies did and Defacts Department,
Family Showner Services won't take the baby. They let it
stay there and die. So something had to lead authorities
(43:57):
to take the sister out of the Huh that said,
tell me about the search of their place, Well.
Speaker 6 (44:05):
They searched the place initially from what we're told.
Speaker 5 (44:08):
They also came back yesterday while.
Speaker 6 (44:10):
We were there and we could see them knocking on
the door trying to get in.
Speaker 5 (44:13):
But nobody was there. And that's kind of the issue.
We don't know where these parents are at least now.
They're not responding to my phone calls and text messages anymore.
Speaker 6 (44:21):
Neither is the grandmother, as you just heard them say,
neither with the organization. So we don't know where they are.
But we know that they did search the home. We
don't know what they found, if anything, but it is
also our understanding that they took the two year old. Now,
what the family told me on Friday was that they
have six children together, that they are a blended family,
(44:42):
two biological children between the two of them, and four
others that they collectively have, so six total.
Speaker 1 (44:49):
Doctor John Delatori.
Speaker 2 (44:50):
For insic psychologists, it's not just about refusing to take
a Polly the parents are gone. Where are the parents?
I can tell you this much. They're not outsearching for
baby Emmanuel.
Speaker 1 (45:01):
So that's bad.
Speaker 13 (45:03):
It's real bad, Nancy. And again it goes back to intentionality.
Why are they saying and why are they behaving in
an inconsistent dinner if they're in goal was to find
baby am Manual, why go into hiding again. I understand
not wanting to take the polygraph, but that doesn't mean
you go hide away and not interact with police anymore.
(45:24):
The clock is still ticking, and the best witness that
we have, such as it is, is Rebecca Harrow and
now she's gone to So Philip D.
Speaker 2 (45:32):
Bay, you were explaining why you would tell your clients
not to take a polly. I guess you would tell
them not to search for their baby too. How would
that make them look bad? I'm just curious.
Speaker 9 (45:44):
Well, initially they were, but now there is this cloud
of suspicion. Every move they make, every word they say,
every action they take is now being scrutinized. And they
don't want to be subject to that type of scrutiny.
I mean, what else can they do make.
Speaker 2 (46:00):
More important than finding the baby? I can't wait for
you to have a baby. If you know or think
you know anything about the disappearance of baby and manual
just seven months old, please please dial nine zero nine
three eight seven eight three one three. You may think
it's insignificant, but it may not be. Nine zero nine
(46:23):
three eight seven eight three one three. And now we
remember an American hero. Sergeant Joe Oliveris, Department Criminal Justice, Texas,
killed in the line of duty, leaving behind three grieving children.
American hero Sergeant Joe Oliveris Nancy Grace signing off goodbye friend,
Host
Nancy Grace
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
My Favorite Murder is a true crime comedy podcast hosted by Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark. Each week, Karen and Georgia share compelling true crimes and hometown stories from friends and listeners. Since MFM launched in January of 2016, Karen and Georgia have shared their lifelong interest in true crime and have covered stories of infamous serial killers like the Night Stalker, mysterious cold cases, captivating cults, incredible survivor stories and important events from history like the Tulsa race massacre of 1921. My Favorite Murder is part of the Exactly Right podcast network that provides a platform for bold, creative voices to bring to life provocative, entertaining and relatable stories for audiences everywhere. The Exactly Right roster of podcasts covers a variety of topics including historic true crime, comedic interviews and news, science, pop culture and more. Podcasts on the network include Buried Bones with Kate Winkler Dawson and Paul Holes, That's Messed Up: An SVU Podcast, This Podcast Will Kill You, Bananas and more.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.