July 18, 2024 • 41 mins
Russell and Shirley Dermond live in a beautiful lakefront property, Lake Oconee, Georgia.
The couple is expected at a Kentucky Derby watch party with neighbors, but don’t show up. When the neighbors reach out by phone, the Dermonds don’t answer. Days later, arriving at the Dermond’s home, the neighbor is surprised to find the front door unlocked. The neighbor calls out their names to no reply.
The neighbor looks in the garage to see if the Dermond’s car is there. The neighbor discovers Russell Dermond laying on the garage floor, decapitated. The neighbor calls 911, racing around the house looking for Shirley Dermond, but she is nowhere to be found.
Investigators begin a neighborhood search and beyond for Shirley Dermond, without success. The search lasts for 10 days until two fishermen find her body in lake Oconee. Shirley Dermond has been dumped in the lake with cinder blocks tied to her legs. Her body is recovered about 5 miles from the Dermond home near the dam.
Joining Nancy Grace Today:
- Sheriff Howard Sills - Putnam County Sheriff
- Dr. Kristen Mittelman- Chief Development Officer, Othram Inc., Othram.com, DNAsolves.com;; X @OthramTech
- Joe Scott Morgan – Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, “Blood Beneath My Feet,” and Host: “Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan;” X: @JoScottForensic
- Dr. John Delatorre – Licensed Psychologist and Mediator (specializing in forensic psychology); Psychological Consultant to Project Absentis: a nonprofit organization that searches for missing persons; Twitter, IG, and TikTok – @drjohndelatorre
- Cody Alcorn – Reporter, 11Alive WXIA (Atlanta, GA); Facebook.com/CodyAlcornNews
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Neighbors in fear a beloved couple found the hubby beheaded
in the garage. Yes, you heard me, the husband found
decapitated in the garage.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
The wife nobody could.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Find for the longest time, and then she was found
by fishermen in the lake, tied to a cement chunk.
Good evening. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank
you for being with us.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
Russell and Shirley Durmond are happily married and living in
a beautiful lakefront property Lake of Coney, Georgia. The couple
is expected at a Kentucky Derby watch party with neighbors,
but don't show up. When the neighbors reach out by phone,
the Dermins don't pick up. Days later, however, arriving at
the Dermoin's home, the neighbor's surprised to find the front
door unlocked, calling out their names. Nobody replies with.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Me in allstar panel to make since we says of
what we know right now about the Dorman's disappearance, and
I want to go first to a special guest joining
us from Putnham County. The elected sheriff Sheriff Howard Seals,
Sheriff Seals, thank you for being with us.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Isn't it odd that the.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Smallest in detail can raise the red alarm? Right, the
flag of alarm. When this neighbor realized that the door
was not secure, that it was unlocked, right then the
neighbor knew something was terribly wrong.
Speaker 4 (01:37):
A lot of suspects, but a lot of people there
in this community still do a lot of the doors.
Speaker 5 (01:42):
Nancy, Yeah, you know what.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
I'm very familiar with Putnham County.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
I was the camp counselor there at a national forest,
the four h Rock Eagle Camp, and it is beautiful,
but it's also very densely forested with a lot of lakes.
And this home was on the beautiful lake Otony. Those
(02:07):
are beautiful homes.
Speaker 5 (02:08):
Right there on the lake right this very well, this
was part of Reynolds at Lake o'cony, so very exclusive
neighborhood of very expensive homes.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Joseph Scott Morgan is joining me, Professor of forensics at
Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet, death
investigator and host of a hit series.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
Body Bags of Joe Scott Morgan.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Joe Scott, you and I have been to the scene
and a very very extensively walked the area.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
Not only is the dense forest an issue.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
But.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
The fact that this is such a high end property
a gated community where crime is very, very low.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
That's the first oddity in this.
Speaker 6 (03:00):
You know, sheriff. The sheriff had mentioned this being rentals
rentals plantation for those of us from anywhere around South
approximate in this area, we're very familiar with this location.
You're talking about very high end living, and you have
an expectation of safety in these particular parts where you
know something this horrible and this is at the top
(03:23):
of the scale, Nancy, as far as cases go that
we've been covering Loath these many years, you don't expect
something this horrific to have occurred in this Rather, I
don't know how to say it other than just kind
of safe and bucolic location here on this beautiful lake Ocone,
And you begin to think about points of access. How
(03:44):
in the world would somebody be brave enough to go
into this location and how did they access this home
in this gated community, And it smacks a level of
familiarity with the area. To me, it always has, at least.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
I mean, yeah, hold on right there, Joe Scott.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Everything you're saying is absolutely correct, but I want to
hone in on it.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Before I miss a point.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
You know, I feel like an English teacher, you know
how they dissect the sentences on the blackboard.
Speaker 6 (04:14):
Yes, and don't ask me what a jarin is because
I still have to figure that out.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
But you just gave me so much information and everybody
on the panel, do I have to remind you we're
not having high tea at Buckingham Palace. Jump in if
you have a thought, because although the sheriff has been
working this case, I'm sure he's open to any new ideas.
Joe Scott, you mentioned the level of familiarity as you said, Okay,
(04:40):
if somebody said to me, okay, I want you to
fly over to Oregon and I want you to find
Oregon Forest Tree neighborhood and go to this certain house,
I would not have any idea what they were talking about. Right,
We're in Oregon. You know how wooded Oregon is. So
(05:04):
where is this neighborhood? It's gated? How am I going
to get in unless I climb over a fence? And
do I have access to get in? And then you
go back through all these windy roads, how are you
going to find the place?
Speaker 1 (05:17):
How are you going to find the victims?
Speaker 2 (05:19):
How are you going to dispose of the wife with
nobody seeing or hearing a thing?
Speaker 1 (05:25):
And I grew up on a red dirt road, Joe Scott,
as you know.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
So when you refer to quote high end living, what
exactly do you mean by that?
Speaker 4 (05:34):
Let me just say this. We've got a link that
spans five counties, and the opportunity to get there by
water is infinitestible. Okay. Likewise, and when you talk about
where do you go if you're looking for Russell Durman,
you can go on the website of the Putnam County
Taxis Sisters website and find out exactly.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
We won't click, but that would.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
And you're right, you're totally right about all of what
you just said, Sheriff. But that takes me to someone
with a boat. Okay, that means money. Somebody with a
boat on Lake Oconey, which narrows my suspect pool. Somebody
that would take a boat to their home, docket, commit
the murders, and then take the wife's body tied to
(06:20):
a cement rock, chuck out into the water. Who would
approach this by boat? And as far as the tax assessment,
you're right again share of sales, But that tells me
a lot about the purp. Somebody that's familiar with the computer,
somebody would think, hey, if I go to the tax
assessor's website, I can find this guy that's very targeted.
(06:46):
So Scott, when you refer to high end living, what's that.
Speaker 6 (06:52):
Well, you think you have access to all of these
amenities around there, not just the lake, but very high
end golfing. If anyone's ever heard of rentals plantation, this
is not something just somebody off the street can walk
in and afford to do. And that tells you a
lot about the Germans, I think relative to the life
that they had chosen to live in this supposedly secure
(07:15):
location where they could live out their golden years in
this particular spot. And back to the lake, just one
more second here, going to familiarity, I think that it's
key because unless it was perhaps a neighbor that had
access to a boat that could do this sort of thing,
we have to think about, well, how familiar are they
with local boat ramps where you can launch a boat
(07:37):
to get into this location? And you begin to think
about nighttime and being able to kind of navigate your
way through this environment, and the placement of the remains
is certainly key here as well.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
So bottom line, let me understand this, Dave mag joining
me Crime Online dot Com investigative reporter.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
The cheapest house you can get.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
And when you hear Joe Scott Morgan referring to high
end living his words, not mine, I'm trying to get
my head wrapped around that because we thought we were
living high end when we finally got a washer and
a dryer. Yeah, washer and dryer. That was the big
time for us, and we would all just go look
at it. We were not allowed to touch it, of course,
(08:20):
until we learned kind of use it. But that said,
did you know, Dave Matt that the cheapest place, the
cheapest house you can get at this RENTLDS plantation on
this lake is in the over five hundred thousand dollars
approaching six hundred thousand.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
That's the cheapest.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
It's an amazing, beautiful place.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
And you know, Dave Matt, as you and I have
discussed many many times off camera, I don't care if
the victims are rich, poor, middle class, if they got
a PhD. Or they dropped out in third grade, don't care.
My point is the level of crime in this gated
community with multimillion dollar dollar homes on the lake front
(09:10):
is zero. I mean, nobody is getting murdered, much less
beheaded in this area.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
That's where I'm headed, Dave Matt.
Speaker 3 (09:21):
Nancy, when you really look at this, okay, and no,
nobody's getting beheaded, nobody's getting kidnapped, nobody's getting murdered in
this beautiful place. But Nancy, this wasn't even a robbery. Okay,
the limited the level of crime here is very very low.
But again, remember here we have two people dead in
(09:41):
the most heinous way you can imagine, and yet there
wasn't It wasn't like there was a robbery going on
and they surprised the burglars and it blew up. There
was no robbery, There was nothing taken. And by the way,
doesn't even look like there's any evidence inside the house
that they were killed inside the house.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
Who would be had the.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
Dad and tie this grandma to a cement chunk and
throw her to the bottom of the lake. Who this
is not your ordinary barbral Joe Scott Morgan professor forensics.
So we're looking at an entirely different suspect Pool.
Speaker 6 (10:22):
Yeah, you certainly are. You're looking at somebody that has
that has a certain level of planning. You know, this
is not obviously some kind of spontaneous event where one
person says something it makes somebody angry and they just
fly off the handle and you've got an assault at least,
so homicide nothing like that. This takes preparation, It takes
tom and again I come back to this benchmark throughout
(10:46):
this entire case. It involves familiarity with the location, you know,
access and opportunity. How could you know this? How could
you be aware of tomlines? How could you be aware
of where to deposit a body and to do it
in a stealthy manner?
Speaker 1 (11:01):
Guys, I want to go back to the scene. What
can we learn?
Speaker 3 (11:05):
Listen, the same neighbor decides to look in the garage
to see if the Dermoin's car is there. It's there.
In the garage. The neighbor discovers Russell Durmont laying on
the garage floor, decapitated.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
So the neighbor realizes that something is very wrong. To
doctor John Delatory, psychologist and mediator who specializes in forensic
psychology and you can find him at resolution fcs dot com.
Doctor Delatory, thank you for being with us. If there's
no sex attack and there's no robbery, who would.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
Go to the effort.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
I'm not just killing this beloved couple, not just killing them,
but decapitating the father and tying the mom to a
cement chunk and throwing her in the water.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
Why.
Speaker 7 (11:56):
I think this is someone who feels offended somehow. The
Dermot's offended this individual. The Dermans may not even know
what they did, or they might not even know who
this perpetrator actually was, but this person felt offended by
what was going on. And I think he was offended.
I say he because more likely he is the offender,
(12:17):
is that he But I think he was offended by
mister Dermott. I think a lot of it is probably
targeted because of whatever it was that that.
Speaker 6 (12:26):
He was doing.
Speaker 7 (12:27):
I think this is I think he wanted mister Dermot
to watch what the offender was going to do to
missus Dermott. I think that there's a lot more sort
of internal struggle strive for that. There's a lot of
anger that is associated with this that I'm not even
sure this family even knew existed or even knew that
this person existed before it all happened.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Okay to Sheriff Howard Seals joining us Cela does Sheriff
they're in Putnam County, Sheriff Sales. We hear doctor Jelaty,
and I'm not saying that he's wrong, but I said.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
Let's follow it through to its logical conclusion.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
Someone angry with mister dermotd angry about what, angry about
what he was doing?
Speaker 1 (13:08):
What was he doing?
Speaker 4 (13:09):
Well, I don't know that, but I agree with his
assessment of that because the assault of missus Dermot was
quite violent. She was struck multiple times through the skull
with something like a hammer. I don't know if it
was a hammer, but something like that. And that's particularly violent.
And there's some evidence that we have that I don't
(13:32):
want to go into great detail, that mister Durman was
present when that occurred. We do not believe she was
killed at the house, and we believe he was shot
only because there was some gunshot residue on his shirt.
So it's very much a violent crime, very much pointed
(13:53):
toward them. We've never thought otherwise and it's but through
you cannot imagine what we've done from the standpoint of
technology MinC records. I mean, you just can't imagine. But
we just simply have not been able to find that
individual that would have had that type of animosity so far.
Speaker 3 (14:18):
Russell Durman's body is found lying between the two cars
in the garage. He's wearing a short sleeved shirt and
a pair of boxers, and he's found lying on top
of a robe while his slippers are tossed to the side.
Russell Durman's bear feet are stained with blood and there's
a faint red trail smeared from the door all the
way to his body. Towels have been placed around impresumably
to prevent blood from leaking under the garage door. His
(14:39):
hands are bruised and bloody, with a severe gash on
the left index finger. Strands of Shirley Derman's hairritangle within
Russell Durmant's fingers, suggesting a struggle between de Durman's and
their attacker.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
Boy, do I need a professor of forensics right now?
Joe Scott Morgan? Do you hear all that that's a
lot of forensic evidence to wade through.
Speaker 6 (14:58):
It certainly is, and you begin to think about the
dynamics of the attack, as Sheriff had mentioned earlier on
Missus Dermot, which is quite intriguing from a forensic standpoint
when you talk about what type of weapon this individual
showed up with or perhaps access from the home in
order to commit such an attack like this. It's very upclose, personal,
(15:21):
very bloody affair, you would think. And then you have
this contact trace evidence that goes over to mister Dermott.
It gives you an idea of the intimacy the proximity
of these two individuals is there as the attack is
going on, and you know, for me, I'm thinking what
(15:42):
would be what would be the end game here relative
to one of these individuals who have been married for
years and years and years Nancy for the perp to
have terrorized them in front of one another. And so
that again goes to the dynamic of what the individual
(16:04):
that is that they're looking for the perp has against
these individuals. Because the level of violence we're talking about,
what do.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
You make of the fact that Russell had his wife's
hair intertwined in his fingers.
Speaker 6 (16:18):
I'd be interested to know how was it intertwined? Is
this something that had occurred as a result of hair
being pulled from her head by him? You have to
consider that, and then you also have to think about, well,
if there's like a copious amount of blood. Sometimes you know,
we slough hair, and many times if you have this
(16:39):
tackiness on the surface of the of the of the
hand and you're in proximity to loose hair, that can
transfer onto the hand. So I'd have to know about
the placement of the hair. I'd like to know what
his fingernails look like if they and I'm sure that
they probably did. The State Medical Examiner's Office did nail
trimmings and scrapings on both of these. Well, probably not
(16:59):
miss Dermin, that wouldn't have offered much information, but certainly
mister Dermot because he was found in a dry environment.
Speaker 2 (17:07):
I'm very curious because this reminds me of the Scott
Peterson case where he murdered Lacey and his unborn child Connor.
Looking at these two in their youth so in love,
remember Joe Scott that Lacy's hair wasn't just sitting on
Scott Peterson's toolbox. It wasn't just sitting on a pair
(17:30):
of long nosed pliers. It was intertwined in the pliers. Now,
how did that happen? Same thing here we've got to
find out. How was her hair on his hand? Was
it in between his fingers? Was it stuck on his
(17:51):
wedding band? Was it stuck in.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
Blood that had dried? Did it come from her head?
Speaker 2 (17:57):
In other words, was the root still attached, the nucleus
still attached.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
To the hair.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
Was it a transfer from dragging his body across the
floor and he got a hair on his hands. We
don't know the answer to that, and that's very important.
Would you agree, yes.
Speaker 6 (18:12):
I would The dynamic that you're thinking about relative two bodies.
After when you have a multiple homicide, for instance, what's
the perpetrator going to do with the bodies? And let's
just say, for instance, you have a circumstance where you
have two bodies that are essentially contacting one of one
(18:32):
another at least for a period of time. Any number
of things can transfer from one body to the other,
And I think probably the sheriff is certainly considering this
and this ongoing investigation. He has to it to think about,
you know, those points of contact along the way both
inside the house in the garage and this mysterious vessel
(18:53):
that we might be talking about as well as here,
because you know, literally with that, with that boat, you've
got a floating crime. I'm seen as well.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
You really do.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
Sheriff Howard steals with us. He elected sheriff in Putnam County.
What about the hair? I've heard the description that it
was intertwined in his fingers.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Is that correct?
Speaker 4 (19:12):
We believe and I believe what happened is mister Durman
reached out to block the blow against his wife's head
when they enter, and that caused the laceration. This and
also it was a compound fracture and the finger and
that's where the hair was. So I think that he
(19:34):
was actually attempting to defend the blow against his wife
and that's how it got in there. It's pretty clear.
That's what it is to me.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace joining me now. Is an
esteemed scientist. It is doctor Kristen Middleman, the chief Developlopment
officer at Authram Labs. You can find her at DNA
solves dot com. A renowned scientist. And when I say
(20:11):
she is a chief development officer, she is a scientist,
an expert in cutting edge DNA technology. Doctor Bentleman, thank
you for being with us. This has got to be
a scientist like you. A dream, a coin ucopia of
(20:32):
DNA evidence.
Speaker 8 (20:33):
Actually it's a nightmare DNA evidence because there is so
much blood, there is so much gruesomeness that belongs to
the victims in this crime scene that it overshadows and
overtakes the DNA evidence left by perpetrators. But yes, there
is definitely a lot of DNA evidence here, and that's
(20:56):
part of what makes this crime scene where you have
to figure out multiple different types of evidence to test
to try to figure out who might have committed this
crime and if it was only one person that committed
this crime or multiple.
Speaker 3 (21:14):
Investigators began a neighborhood search and beyond for Shirley Dermot
without success. The decapitated body of her husband, Russell Dermott,
was placed in the garage with towels placed around the body.
Early on, investigators believed Russell was killed elsewhere and his
body brought to the garage because the towels appeared to
be placed around his body to prevent blood from seeping
out under the garage door. But there doesn't appear to
(21:36):
be as much blood in the towels as would be
expected had he been decapitated while still alive. Where his
body is found?
Speaker 2 (21:42):
Which to you, Sheriff Howard Sills, I led to Sheriff
Putnam County, leads me to the question, if not murdered there,
where were they killed and what was the purpose of
bringing them back to their own home?
Speaker 4 (21:57):
Well, that's the million dollar question, and that if I
probably knew the answer, there'd be somebody in the back
back here today. But we don't believe obviously that she
was killed there, and while on earth they would have
brought his body back. I do not know. He was
certainly deceased at the time of the decapitation, So this
(22:20):
was more of a preventive for deep coop flu and
things like that leaking out from under the garage and door.
I think that actual blood.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
Scott Morgan joining us explain how a medical examiner can
determine if Russell was decapitated prior to his death, or
if that was the cause of the cause of death
or decapitated post mortem it was a.
Speaker 6 (22:49):
Post mortem decapitation, or any severance of any appendance of
the body if it's in the post mortem state, you're
not going to have what we refer to as this
little focal, which means to be very specific areas of
hemorrhage into the soft tissue. And what that means is
that as the body is being traumatized in life, the
blood will actually leach out into the surrounding tissue where
(23:12):
the trauma has occurred. When we're doing an examination of
a body and we see, for instance, something as horrific
as this, we're going to look for hemorrhage. If you have, say,
what remains of the neck, you begin to kind of
circumferentially around the area where this has taken place, You're
(23:33):
going to look for hemorrhage in there. If you're absent
that hemorrhage, you can deduce at that point in time
that you're looking at a post mortem or after death injury.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
And the sheriff seems very convinced. He said it as
a matter of fact that Russell was decapitated after he
was killed. The theory is that there were at least
two perpetrators.
Speaker 3 (23:56):
Why what's Putnam County Sheriff Howard Zille says the evidence
points to at least two people being involved in the
murders of Russell and Shirley Durmot. The sheriff says he
believes the couple was murdered in a place as yet
unknown to investigators, and the double homicide appears to have
been personal, not something that happened during the commission of
another crime, such as a burglary, as nothing appears to
(24:17):
have been stolen.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
Sheriff, why are you convinced through at least two perpetrators
that murder these two?
Speaker 4 (24:22):
Well, missus Derman's body, I mean, we're talking about two
bodies here that were moved. She was disposed of by
boat five miles down the lake. And I just find
it almost impossible that one person could have picked up
bodies and things like that and moved them around from
(24:43):
one location to another, much less six miles down the
lake than tied the bag with the box and and
all that. I just found that highly unlikely. At least two.
It wouldn't surprise me. Quite can't through a more.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
Doctor Kristen Middleman joining us t officer at off Ram
Labs who specialize and degraded or even old DNA really
working miracles.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
Doctor Middleman, thank you for being with us.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
If you were advising a crew of forensics experts on
how and where they should look for DNA at this scene.
What would you tell them.
Speaker 8 (25:24):
I would definitely look at everything that was just like
Joe said earlier, underneath fingernails, things that had touched the
body that may not have been overcome by all the
blood and all of the other fluids that were at
the crime scene. Because the victim was decapitated, that was
found in the garage, you have a lot of DNA
(25:48):
that belongs to the victim that may overpower any touch
DNA or DNA that was found on the towel or
the robe or anything that was around that victim to
stop bleeding. So those are things I would say, try
to find DNA that would be a higher mixture of
the perpetrator than it would be the victim, just like
(26:09):
skin cells, under fingernails or something the perpetrator may have
touched and not the victim or the victim's fluids. Now,
the other thing is you said earlier that maybe her
fingernails wouldn't be useful because they were at the bottom
of a lake. I still think that DNA could be
pulled from something like that. We have identified people that
(26:32):
have been chopped to bits and the suitcases at the
bottom of a lake for decades, bottom of sewage tanks.
So we have figured out ways to overcome water and
degradation that comes contamination that comes with being in water
for a very long time. So I would still look
at that evidence as well. Maybe because her body was
discarded before it was manipulated as much as his by
(26:55):
the decapitation, maybe there would be more DNA her body
that could be found that would be more perpetrator. That
would be my suggestion.
Speaker 3 (27:07):
There is no evidence to suggest either of the dermoms
were killed inside their house. There is also no evidence
of the exact time and date of their death. Sheriff
Sills said Shirley Dermot was working on a crossword puzzle
out of US eight to day that's left on the
kitchen table. The Dermin's bed was unmade, and Russell Dermot
was found laying on top of his bathrobe wearing his
boxers and a T shirt. Which Sureley Dermom's body is
(27:30):
found in Lake Aconi. She is completely dressed.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
To Sheriff Howard Zills joining us from Putnam County Sheriff,
that tells you about what time of the.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
Day do you think these two were murdered.
Speaker 4 (27:42):
Well, again, we don't really know. Because of talking to
the Durmo's children, we learned that when mister Dermot would
get up in the morning, if he didn't have anything
to do, that he would lounge around for several hours,
sometimes with his robe and bedclothes. However, her custom was
when she got up, she immediately became dressed. We do
(28:07):
know that a man was seen or somebody was seen
in the yard on the Saturday before the Kentucky derby,
so we actually think, because of all of that together
that this probably happened initially sometimes Saturday during the daytime.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
Well, I'm curious just looking at people's behavior. He still
had on his boxers and a T shirt. She was
doing the crossword puzzle. Joining me is doctor John Delatory,
renowned psychologist and mediator who specializes in forensic psychology.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
Doctor Delatory number one.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
I need to know the date of the USA Today
crossroord puzzle, and it's just striking me that this was
in the morning, which makes this even more of an aberration,
an oddity.
Speaker 7 (29:04):
Yeah, because they're unprepared, right, there's nothing to suggest that
anything is going on in their daily lives that made
them afraid of whatever it.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
Is that's going on.
Speaker 7 (29:13):
Even if there was an individual in their yard, it
certainly doesn't appear as though that individual shouldn't be there, right,
So there's a lot that's sort of just the routine, right,
the mundane, the regular things that these two individuals kind
of go through. They weren't expecting any of this to happen, so.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
They weren't prepared.
Speaker 7 (29:32):
This is not so much a blitz attack, because there's
nothing to suggest in the home that you know, all
of a sudden there was some kind of fight, but
there is something in which they were unprepared and they
just kind of it was just unexpected, and instead of
using force, the individual probably use some kind of coercive technique,
whether it was a gun or a weapon or something
(29:53):
like that. But there was more coercion, more verbal threats
more than there was physical threats.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
Just Scott Morgan enjoining us for professor forensics. It's not
all about fingerprints and fibers. Let's take a look at it.
Joe Scott number one, the date of the USA Today paper.
Was it her custom to do the crossword in the mornings?
Were coffee cup coffee cups sitting out on the kitchen table.
(30:20):
Was there a pot of coffee still in the coffee maker?
Was there anything in the crock pot where their dishes
out from lunch or did it look more like dinner.
We know that they didn't show up for the Kentucky
Derby party, so that gives us the clue as to
the end.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
They were dead by that time. What else would you
look for?
Speaker 6 (30:41):
Joe Scott well Sheriff Sales, has done the right thing
by going to speak with the family, something we do
in investigations to just try to get a take a
temperature of what their daily routine looks like, and you
have to try to understand that and are there any
moments in tom that deviate from that normal all those
normal behaviors moving forward. I think that also one of
(31:06):
the things. And if we believe that there may have
been more than one individual involved in this, I think
that it would be very important to try to examine
any kind of available digital evidence that might be available
from back during that time period, as far as phone records,
anything that came off of any of the towers back then.
(31:27):
I don't know if that's necessarily possible, but it's certainly
something that's intriguing. If you've got one person in the yard,
perhaps are they communicating with someone else that could facilitate
bringing a boat around, Because that's that's the rub, isn't it.
You know, how do you get a boat into a
location where you're running the risk in broad daylight of
(31:47):
people being seen at their dock or their mooring location there?
Speaker 1 (31:52):
How does this work?
Speaker 6 (31:53):
So there has to be communication involved in this. I
think that's that's certainly something to look at.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
And of course, you know the Agel question dot miss
on dilatory. You really think too or more people could
keep this quiet. No way they had to tell a girlfriend,
a wife, a co conspirator.
Speaker 1 (32:11):
There was a reason for this murder. Somebody has to
know why, and that leads you to who.
Speaker 7 (32:17):
Again, it leads me to someone that felt offended by
whatever Russell Dermot was doing, whatever it was that he
was involved in. Now, this could have been an ex employee,
this could have been this could have been anybody.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
But when you say involved in, wait a minute, that
makes it sounds like it's a victim's fault. How do
I know it wasn't somebody that broke in and he
wouldn't give up the pen number to his checking account
or his saving his account. I mean, we did that
cause someone to go into a fury, But would they
go through the effort of driving up in a boat
and decapitating him over a pin number?
Speaker 6 (32:50):
No, No, absolutely not.
Speaker 7 (32:51):
This is why I'm saying that this is about something
that was going on within the individual that was specifically
targeting Russell Dermott or else a. None of this other
stuff would need to have happened. I mean that these
two individuals are killed in very disparate ways, and they're
dumped in very disparate ways, But I think it's purposeful.
This was planned from the beginning that this was how
(33:12):
things were going to play out, and everything is probably
geared towards Russell Derman being sort of the ultimate target
of whatever this thing was, given the nature of how
his wife was beaten to death and how he necessarily
wasn't in.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
The last days a break in the case.
Speaker 3 (33:31):
Listen, the case of the double homicide of a beloved
couple in a gated community on Lake of Coony goes
cold for nearly ten years until Sheriff Howard Siles announces
a break in the case. DNA is recovered from Russell
Durman's shirt and is sent to a private lab for examination.
The private lab confirms the DNA does not belong to
Russell or Shirley Durman. Pubman County Sheriff Howard Siles says
(33:52):
he believes the DNA is from the person who committed
the murder, or at least somebody who is a party
to the crime.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
Crime stories with Nancy Grace, the double.
Speaker 3 (34:08):
Homicide of Russell and Shirley Dermot rocks their gaty community.
Huddnam County Sheriff Howard Sills says, based on the evidence,
Russell Drman was murdered elsewhere, but was beheaded in the
garage where his body was found. The shriff says the
injuries Shirley Drman sustained would have left physical evidence that
was not found in the Drman's.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
Home, nor evidence at the beheading of Russell Dermott occurred
there in the home as well. Where were they killed?
What was the purpose of bringing their bodies back to
that gated community home right on the waterfront of Lake Oconey.
We are now hearing about new DNA straight out to
the sheriff. Sheriff Howard Sills, where did you discover where
(34:49):
was the new DNA.
Speaker 4 (34:50):
We initially took all of our physical evidence out to Authoram.
Authorham did locate and did identified DNA. Further work that
needed to be done, and they have referred me to
Sarrensen Labs in out in Utah and they have found
DNA that they are still working on trying to isolate that.
(35:17):
We at least know both Author and Sarnson found DNA
that does not belong to Shirley or Russell. Drman and
Sarnston is still doing whatever they're doing there, trying to
narrow that down enough where we can get it into CODIS.
(35:39):
So I reached out to them. Initially, the State Lab
said there was no DNA. I'm not being critical of them.
I don't know the technology at the time other than
the Dermots themselves. But after learning of the good work
of Authorm and Sarrens and consulting with the FBI, that's
where I decided to take stuff. So we're optimistic that
(36:04):
that's going to eventually turn up something here, hopefully pretty soon.
Speaker 2 (36:08):
Doctor Christen Millman, joining US chief development officer at AUTHRAM,
tell me about the discovery of the new Well, it's
not really new DNA. It's newly discovered DNA. Where was
it and how did you find it?
Speaker 8 (36:20):
It was on the clothing and I guess how we
found it is The sheriff sent the evidence here to
see if there was any unknown contributor profile that could
be detected that wasn't previously detected. Once that was detected
at our lab, we had to follow the interim policy
for this type of technology, and that means that any
(36:43):
DNA that is found needs to be uploaded to COTIS
first and see if there is a hit and CODIS
or a match in CODIS. Once there's not a hitt
and CODIS, then we can proceed and build a profile.
If there is a hitting CODIS, obviously the case can
be solved that way. A lot of the times there isn't.
If there isn't, then we can proceed and build a
profile that has hundreds and hundreds of thousands of markers
(37:05):
rather than twenty, and upload that to genealogical databases consented
for law enforcement use, allowing us to infer the identity
of the perpetrator. And so Sorensen is a traditional forensic
lab that can build these CODIS profiles quickly and get
them uploaded. That is what's happening now, and if there
(37:25):
is a hit, that case can be solved that way.
If there is no hit, then we can take over
the DNA sample and build one of these genealogical profiles
that will help us infer the identity of the person
that left DNA at the crime scene. We can't say
it's the perpetrator, but we can say someone that left
DNA on their body at the crime scene during that
(37:48):
time period.
Speaker 2 (37:49):
The clothes they were wearing at the time they were murdered. Okay,
question Dodger Crystal middleman joining us Dodger Middleman when I say,
how do you find the DNA on the clothing? Specifically?
What do you put it under a microscope? Do you
treat it in some way? How do you see what
(38:11):
other scientists could not see?
Speaker 8 (38:14):
Well, DNA techniques should be much the same and standardized,
but maybe we took a section of that clothing that
was different than sections that had been tested in the past.
How forensic testing works is you section different areas of
a bedsheet, clothing, anything that might have been found at
the crime scene, and then you extract DNA from all
(38:34):
of those cuttings and sometimes you're lucky and you actually
find a profile that doesn't belong to either one of
the victims, and that is what the sheriff is alluding
to in this case.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
Doctor Mintlman, it's amazing to me the work that you
do at Authram. You've actually found something that other scientists
at the time couldn't see, and it may hold the
key to not just a double murder, but the double
murder of beloved grandparents, a beheading. And I look at
(39:08):
missus Derman to imagine someone tying her body to a
cement chunk and throwing her into that cold, dark water.
These perps have got to be found and your work
may make that happen. If you know, or you even
(39:30):
think you know anything about the brutal murders of the Dermans,
please call seven zero six four eight five eight five
five seven seven zero six four eight five eight five
five seven. Now we've got up that there is a
twenty five thousand dollars reward, but there is also a
(39:52):
commitment for Metropolitan Life Insurance for thirty grand Let's hope
we can use it total of fifty five thousand dollars
and promised reward for the discovery of information leading to
the resolution of this double murder. We stop now and
(40:16):
remember American hero police Officer Garrett Crumby, Huntsville, Alabama. Just
thirty six. Officer Crumby shot and killed in the line
of duty. Survived by grieving wife Taylor, loving parents William
and Janet, two dogs and two cats, four furry children.
(40:37):
American hero police Officer Garrett Crumby. Thank you to our
guests for being with us, especially to doctor Kristen Middleman
from off Raum Labs, and of course to Sheriff Howard Stills,
still on the case there in Putnam County.
Speaker 1 (40:54):
Nancy Grace signing off, goodbye friend,
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Neighbors in fear a beloved couple found the hubby beheaded
in the garage. Yes, you heard me, the husband found
decapitated in the garage.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
The wife nobody could.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Find for the longest time, and then she was found
by fishermen in the lake, tied to a cement chunk.
Good evening. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank
you for being with us.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
Russell and Shirley Durmond are happily married and living in
a beautiful lakefront property Lake of Coney, Georgia. The couple
is expected at a Kentucky Derby watch party with neighbors,
but don't show up. When the neighbors reach out by phone,
the Dermins don't pick up. Days later, however, arriving at
the Dermoin's home, the neighbor's surprised to find the front
door unlocked, calling out their names. Nobody replies with.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Me in allstar panel to make since we says of
what we know right now about the Dorman's disappearance, and
I want to go first to a special guest joining
us from Putnham County. The elected sheriff Sheriff Howard Seals,
Sheriff Seals, thank you for being with us.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Isn't it odd that the.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Smallest in detail can raise the red alarm? Right, the
flag of alarm. When this neighbor realized that the door
was not secure, that it was unlocked, right then the
neighbor knew something was terribly wrong.
Speaker 4 (01:37):
A lot of suspects, but a lot of people there
in this community still do a lot of the doors.
Speaker 5 (01:42):
Nancy, Yeah, you know what.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
I'm very familiar with Putnham County.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
I was the camp counselor there at a national forest,
the four h Rock Eagle Camp, and it is beautiful,
but it's also very densely forested with a lot of lakes.
And this home was on the beautiful lake Otony. Those
(02:07):
are beautiful homes.
Speaker 5 (02:08):
Right there on the lake right this very well, this
was part of Reynolds at Lake o'cony, so very exclusive
neighborhood of very expensive homes.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Joseph Scott Morgan is joining me, Professor of forensics at
Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet, death
investigator and host of a hit series.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
Body Bags of Joe Scott Morgan.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Joe Scott, you and I have been to the scene
and a very very extensively walked the area.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
Not only is the dense forest an issue.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
But.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
The fact that this is such a high end property
a gated community where crime is very, very low.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
That's the first oddity in this.
Speaker 6 (03:00):
You know, sheriff. The sheriff had mentioned this being rentals
rentals plantation for those of us from anywhere around South
approximate in this area, we're very familiar with this location.
You're talking about very high end living, and you have
an expectation of safety in these particular parts where you
know something this horrible and this is at the top
(03:23):
of the scale, Nancy, as far as cases go that
we've been covering Loath these many years, you don't expect
something this horrific to have occurred in this Rather, I
don't know how to say it other than just kind
of safe and bucolic location here on this beautiful lake Ocone,
And you begin to think about points of access. How
(03:44):
in the world would somebody be brave enough to go
into this location and how did they access this home
in this gated community, And it smacks a level of
familiarity with the area. To me, it always has, at least.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
I mean, yeah, hold on right there, Joe Scott.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Everything you're saying is absolutely correct, but I want to
hone in on it.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
Before I miss a point.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
You know, I feel like an English teacher, you know
how they dissect the sentences on the blackboard.
Speaker 6 (04:14):
Yes, and don't ask me what a jarin is because
I still have to figure that out.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
But you just gave me so much information and everybody
on the panel, do I have to remind you we're
not having high tea at Buckingham Palace. Jump in if
you have a thought, because although the sheriff has been
working this case, I'm sure he's open to any new ideas.
Joe Scott, you mentioned the level of familiarity as you said, Okay,
(04:40):
if somebody said to me, okay, I want you to
fly over to Oregon and I want you to find
Oregon Forest Tree neighborhood and go to this certain house,
I would not have any idea what they were talking about. Right,
We're in Oregon. You know how wooded Oregon is. So
(05:04):
where is this neighborhood? It's gated? How am I going
to get in unless I climb over a fence? And
do I have access to get in? And then you
go back through all these windy roads, how are you
going to find the place?
Speaker 1 (05:17):
How are you going to find the victims?
Speaker 2 (05:19):
How are you going to dispose of the wife with
nobody seeing or hearing a thing?
Speaker 1 (05:25):
And I grew up on a red dirt road, Joe Scott,
as you know.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
So when you refer to quote high end living, what
exactly do you mean by that?
Speaker 4 (05:34):
Let me just say this. We've got a link that
spans five counties, and the opportunity to get there by
water is infinitestible. Okay. Likewise, and when you talk about
where do you go if you're looking for Russell Durman,
you can go on the website of the Putnam County
Taxis Sisters website and find out exactly.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
We won't click, but that would.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
And you're right, you're totally right about all of what
you just said, Sheriff. But that takes me to someone
with a boat. Okay, that means money. Somebody with a
boat on Lake Oconey, which narrows my suspect pool. Somebody
that would take a boat to their home, docket, commit
the murders, and then take the wife's body tied to
(06:20):
a cement rock, chuck out into the water. Who would
approach this by boat? And as far as the tax assessment,
you're right again share of sales, But that tells me
a lot about the purp. Somebody that's familiar with the computer,
somebody would think, hey, if I go to the tax
assessor's website, I can find this guy that's very targeted.
(06:46):
So Scott, when you refer to high end living, what's that.
Speaker 6 (06:52):
Well, you think you have access to all of these
amenities around there, not just the lake, but very high
end golfing. If anyone's ever heard of rentals plantation, this
is not something just somebody off the street can walk
in and afford to do. And that tells you a
lot about the Germans, I think relative to the life
that they had chosen to live in this supposedly secure
(07:15):
location where they could live out their golden years in
this particular spot. And back to the lake, just one
more second here, going to familiarity, I think that it's
key because unless it was perhaps a neighbor that had
access to a boat that could do this sort of thing,
we have to think about, well, how familiar are they
with local boat ramps where you can launch a boat
(07:37):
to get into this location? And you begin to think
about nighttime and being able to kind of navigate your
way through this environment, and the placement of the remains
is certainly key here as well.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
So bottom line, let me understand this, Dave mag joining
me Crime Online dot Com investigative reporter.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
The cheapest house you can get.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
And when you hear Joe Scott Morgan referring to high
end living his words, not mine, I'm trying to get
my head wrapped around that because we thought we were
living high end when we finally got a washer and
a dryer. Yeah, washer and dryer. That was the big
time for us, and we would all just go look
at it. We were not allowed to touch it, of course,
(08:20):
until we learned kind of use it. But that said,
did you know, Dave Matt that the cheapest place, the
cheapest house you can get at this RENTLDS plantation on
this lake is in the over five hundred thousand dollars
approaching six hundred thousand.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
That's the cheapest.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
It's an amazing, beautiful place.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
And you know, Dave Matt, as you and I have
discussed many many times off camera, I don't care if
the victims are rich, poor, middle class, if they got
a PhD. Or they dropped out in third grade, don't care.
My point is the level of crime in this gated
community with multimillion dollar dollar homes on the lake front
(09:10):
is zero. I mean, nobody is getting murdered, much less
beheaded in this area.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
That's where I'm headed, Dave Matt.
Speaker 3 (09:21):
Nancy, when you really look at this, okay, and no,
nobody's getting beheaded, nobody's getting kidnapped, nobody's getting murdered in
this beautiful place. But Nancy, this wasn't even a robbery. Okay,
the limited the level of crime here is very very low.
But again, remember here we have two people dead in
(09:41):
the most heinous way you can imagine, and yet there
wasn't It wasn't like there was a robbery going on
and they surprised the burglars and it blew up. There
was no robbery, There was nothing taken. And by the way,
doesn't even look like there's any evidence inside the house
that they were killed inside the house.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
Who would be had the.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
Dad and tie this grandma to a cement chunk and
throw her to the bottom of the lake. Who this
is not your ordinary barbral Joe Scott Morgan professor forensics.
So we're looking at an entirely different suspect Pool.
Speaker 6 (10:22):
Yeah, you certainly are. You're looking at somebody that has
that has a certain level of planning. You know, this
is not obviously some kind of spontaneous event where one
person says something it makes somebody angry and they just
fly off the handle and you've got an assault at least,
so homicide nothing like that. This takes preparation, It takes
tom and again I come back to this benchmark throughout
(10:46):
this entire case. It involves familiarity with the location, you know,
access and opportunity. How could you know this? How could
you be aware of tomlines? How could you be aware
of where to deposit a body and to do it
in a stealthy manner?
Speaker 1 (11:01):
Guys, I want to go back to the scene. What
can we learn?
Speaker 3 (11:05):
Listen, the same neighbor decides to look in the garage
to see if the Dermoin's car is there. It's there.
In the garage. The neighbor discovers Russell Durmont laying on
the garage floor, decapitated.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
So the neighbor realizes that something is very wrong. To
doctor John Delatory, psychologist and mediator who specializes in forensic
psychology and you can find him at resolution fcs dot com.
Doctor Delatory, thank you for being with us. If there's
no sex attack and there's no robbery, who would.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
Go to the effort.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
I'm not just killing this beloved couple, not just killing them,
but decapitating the father and tying the mom to a
cement chunk and throwing her in the water.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
Why.
Speaker 7 (11:56):
I think this is someone who feels offended somehow. The
Dermot's offended this individual. The Dermans may not even know
what they did, or they might not even know who
this perpetrator actually was, but this person felt offended by
what was going on. And I think he was offended.
I say he because more likely he is the offender,
(12:17):
is that he But I think he was offended by
mister Dermott. I think a lot of it is probably
targeted because of whatever it was that that.
Speaker 6 (12:26):
He was doing.
Speaker 7 (12:27):
I think this is I think he wanted mister Dermot
to watch what the offender was going to do to
missus Dermott. I think that there's a lot more sort
of internal struggle strive for that. There's a lot of
anger that is associated with this that I'm not even
sure this family even knew existed or even knew that
this person existed before it all happened.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Okay to Sheriff Howard Seals joining us Cela does Sheriff
they're in Putnam County, Sheriff Sales. We hear doctor Jelaty,
and I'm not saying that he's wrong, but I said.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
Let's follow it through to its logical conclusion.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
Someone angry with mister dermotd angry about what, angry about
what he was doing?
Speaker 1 (13:08):
What was he doing?
Speaker 4 (13:09):
Well, I don't know that, but I agree with his
assessment of that because the assault of missus Dermot was
quite violent. She was struck multiple times through the skull
with something like a hammer. I don't know if it
was a hammer, but something like that. And that's particularly violent.
And there's some evidence that we have that I don't
(13:32):
want to go into great detail, that mister Durman was
present when that occurred. We do not believe she was
killed at the house, and we believe he was shot
only because there was some gunshot residue on his shirt.
So it's very much a violent crime, very much pointed
(13:53):
toward them. We've never thought otherwise and it's but through
you cannot imagine what we've done from the standpoint of
technology MinC records. I mean, you just can't imagine. But
we just simply have not been able to find that
individual that would have had that type of animosity so far.
Speaker 3 (14:18):
Russell Durman's body is found lying between the two cars
in the garage. He's wearing a short sleeved shirt and
a pair of boxers, and he's found lying on top
of a robe while his slippers are tossed to the side.
Russell Durman's bear feet are stained with blood and there's
a faint red trail smeared from the door all the
way to his body. Towels have been placed around impresumably
to prevent blood from leaking under the garage door. His
(14:39):
hands are bruised and bloody, with a severe gash on
the left index finger. Strands of Shirley Derman's hairritangle within
Russell Durmant's fingers, suggesting a struggle between de Durman's and
their attacker.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
Boy, do I need a professor of forensics right now?
Joe Scott Morgan? Do you hear all that that's a
lot of forensic evidence to wade through.
Speaker 6 (14:58):
It certainly is, and you begin to think about the
dynamics of the attack, as Sheriff had mentioned earlier on
Missus Dermot, which is quite intriguing from a forensic standpoint
when you talk about what type of weapon this individual
showed up with or perhaps access from the home in
order to commit such an attack like this. It's very upclose, personal,
(15:21):
very bloody affair, you would think. And then you have
this contact trace evidence that goes over to mister Dermott.
It gives you an idea of the intimacy the proximity
of these two individuals is there as the attack is
going on, and you know, for me, I'm thinking what
(15:42):
would be what would be the end game here relative
to one of these individuals who have been married for
years and years and years Nancy for the perp to
have terrorized them in front of one another. And so
that again goes to the dynamic of what the individual
(16:04):
that is that they're looking for the perp has against
these individuals. Because the level of violence we're talking about,
what do.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
You make of the fact that Russell had his wife's
hair intertwined in his fingers.
Speaker 6 (16:18):
I'd be interested to know how was it intertwined? Is
this something that had occurred as a result of hair
being pulled from her head by him? You have to
consider that, and then you also have to think about, well,
if there's like a copious amount of blood. Sometimes you know,
we slough hair, and many times if you have this
(16:39):
tackiness on the surface of the of the of the
hand and you're in proximity to loose hair, that can
transfer onto the hand. So I'd have to know about
the placement of the hair. I'd like to know what
his fingernails look like if they and I'm sure that
they probably did. The State Medical Examiner's Office did nail
trimmings and scrapings on both of these. Well, probably not
(16:59):
miss Dermin, that wouldn't have offered much information, but certainly
mister Dermot because he was found in a dry environment.
Speaker 2 (17:07):
I'm very curious because this reminds me of the Scott
Peterson case where he murdered Lacey and his unborn child Connor.
Looking at these two in their youth so in love,
remember Joe Scott that Lacy's hair wasn't just sitting on
Scott Peterson's toolbox. It wasn't just sitting on a pair
(17:30):
of long nosed pliers. It was intertwined in the pliers. Now,
how did that happen? Same thing here we've got to
find out. How was her hair on his hand? Was
it in between his fingers? Was it stuck on his
(17:51):
wedding band? Was it stuck in.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
Blood that had dried? Did it come from her head?
Speaker 2 (17:57):
In other words, was the root still attached, the nucleus
still attached.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
To the hair.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
Was it a transfer from dragging his body across the
floor and he got a hair on his hands. We
don't know the answer to that, and that's very important.
Would you agree, yes.
Speaker 6 (18:12):
I would The dynamic that you're thinking about relative two bodies.
After when you have a multiple homicide, for instance, what's
the perpetrator going to do with the bodies? And let's
just say, for instance, you have a circumstance where you
have two bodies that are essentially contacting one of one
(18:32):
another at least for a period of time. Any number
of things can transfer from one body to the other,
And I think probably the sheriff is certainly considering this
and this ongoing investigation. He has to it to think about,
you know, those points of contact along the way both
inside the house in the garage and this mysterious vessel
(18:53):
that we might be talking about as well as here,
because you know, literally with that, with that boat, you've
got a floating crime. I'm seen as well.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
You really do.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
Sheriff Howard steals with us. He elected sheriff in Putnam County.
What about the hair? I've heard the description that it
was intertwined in his fingers.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Is that correct?
Speaker 4 (19:12):
We believe and I believe what happened is mister Durman
reached out to block the blow against his wife's head
when they enter, and that caused the laceration. This and
also it was a compound fracture and the finger and
that's where the hair was. So I think that he
(19:34):
was actually attempting to defend the blow against his wife
and that's how it got in there. It's pretty clear.
That's what it is to me.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace joining me now. Is an
esteemed scientist. It is doctor Kristen Middleman, the chief Developlopment
officer at Authram Labs. You can find her at DNA
solves dot com. A renowned scientist. And when I say
(20:11):
she is a chief development officer, she is a scientist,
an expert in cutting edge DNA technology. Doctor Bentleman, thank
you for being with us. This has got to be
a scientist like you. A dream, a coin ucopia of
(20:32):
DNA evidence.
Speaker 8 (20:33):
Actually it's a nightmare DNA evidence because there is so
much blood, there is so much gruesomeness that belongs to
the victims in this crime scene that it overshadows and
overtakes the DNA evidence left by perpetrators. But yes, there
is definitely a lot of DNA evidence here, and that's
(20:56):
part of what makes this crime scene where you have
to figure out multiple different types of evidence to test
to try to figure out who might have committed this
crime and if it was only one person that committed
this crime or multiple.
Speaker 3 (21:14):
Investigators began a neighborhood search and beyond for Shirley Dermot
without success. The decapitated body of her husband, Russell Dermott,
was placed in the garage with towels placed around the body.
Early on, investigators believed Russell was killed elsewhere and his
body brought to the garage because the towels appeared to
be placed around his body to prevent blood from seeping
out under the garage door. But there doesn't appear to
(21:36):
be as much blood in the towels as would be
expected had he been decapitated while still alive. Where his
body is found?
Speaker 2 (21:42):
Which to you, Sheriff Howard Sills, I led to Sheriff
Putnam County, leads me to the question, if not murdered there,
where were they killed and what was the purpose of
bringing them back to their own home?
Speaker 4 (21:57):
Well, that's the million dollar question, and that if I
probably knew the answer, there'd be somebody in the back
back here today. But we don't believe obviously that she
was killed there, and while on earth they would have
brought his body back. I do not know. He was
certainly deceased at the time of the decapitation, So this
(22:20):
was more of a preventive for deep coop flu and
things like that leaking out from under the garage and door.
I think that actual blood.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
Scott Morgan joining us explain how a medical examiner can
determine if Russell was decapitated prior to his death, or
if that was the cause of the cause of death
or decapitated post mortem it was a.
Speaker 6 (22:49):
Post mortem decapitation, or any severance of any appendance of
the body if it's in the post mortem state, you're
not going to have what we refer to as this
little focal, which means to be very specific areas of
hemorrhage into the soft tissue. And what that means is
that as the body is being traumatized in life, the
blood will actually leach out into the surrounding tissue where
(23:12):
the trauma has occurred. When we're doing an examination of
a body and we see, for instance, something as horrific
as this, we're going to look for hemorrhage. If you have, say,
what remains of the neck, you begin to kind of
circumferentially around the area where this has taken place, You're
(23:33):
going to look for hemorrhage in there. If you're absent
that hemorrhage, you can deduce at that point in time
that you're looking at a post mortem or after death injury.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
And the sheriff seems very convinced. He said it as
a matter of fact that Russell was decapitated after he
was killed. The theory is that there were at least
two perpetrators.
Speaker 3 (23:56):
Why what's Putnam County Sheriff Howard Zille says the evidence
points to at least two people being involved in the
murders of Russell and Shirley Durmot. The sheriff says he
believes the couple was murdered in a place as yet
unknown to investigators, and the double homicide appears to have
been personal, not something that happened during the commission of
another crime, such as a burglary, as nothing appears to
(24:17):
have been stolen.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
Sheriff, why are you convinced through at least two perpetrators
that murder these two?
Speaker 4 (24:22):
Well, missus Derman's body, I mean, we're talking about two
bodies here that were moved. She was disposed of by
boat five miles down the lake. And I just find
it almost impossible that one person could have picked up
bodies and things like that and moved them around from
(24:43):
one location to another, much less six miles down the
lake than tied the bag with the box and and
all that. I just found that highly unlikely. At least two.
It wouldn't surprise me. Quite can't through a more.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
Doctor Kristen Middleman joining us t officer at off Ram
Labs who specialize and degraded or even old DNA really
working miracles.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
Doctor Middleman, thank you for being with us.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
If you were advising a crew of forensics experts on
how and where they should look for DNA at this scene.
What would you tell them.
Speaker 8 (25:24):
I would definitely look at everything that was just like
Joe said earlier, underneath fingernails, things that had touched the
body that may not have been overcome by all the
blood and all of the other fluids that were at
the crime scene. Because the victim was decapitated, that was
found in the garage, you have a lot of DNA
(25:48):
that belongs to the victim that may overpower any touch
DNA or DNA that was found on the towel or
the robe or anything that was around that victim to
stop bleeding. So those are things I would say, try
to find DNA that would be a higher mixture of
the perpetrator than it would be the victim, just like
(26:09):
skin cells, under fingernails or something the perpetrator may have
touched and not the victim or the victim's fluids. Now,
the other thing is you said earlier that maybe her
fingernails wouldn't be useful because they were at the bottom
of a lake. I still think that DNA could be
pulled from something like that. We have identified people that
(26:32):
have been chopped to bits and the suitcases at the
bottom of a lake for decades, bottom of sewage tanks.
So we have figured out ways to overcome water and
degradation that comes contamination that comes with being in water
for a very long time. So I would still look
at that evidence as well. Maybe because her body was
discarded before it was manipulated as much as his by
(26:55):
the decapitation, maybe there would be more DNA her body
that could be found that would be more perpetrator. That
would be my suggestion.
Speaker 3 (27:07):
There is no evidence to suggest either of the dermoms
were killed inside their house. There is also no evidence
of the exact time and date of their death. Sheriff
Sills said Shirley Dermot was working on a crossword puzzle
out of US eight to day that's left on the
kitchen table. The Dermin's bed was unmade, and Russell Dermot
was found laying on top of his bathrobe wearing his
boxers and a T shirt. Which Sureley Dermom's body is
(27:30):
found in Lake Aconi. She is completely dressed.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
To Sheriff Howard Zills joining us from Putnam County Sheriff,
that tells you about what time of the.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
Day do you think these two were murdered.
Speaker 4 (27:42):
Well, again, we don't really know. Because of talking to
the Durmo's children, we learned that when mister Dermot would
get up in the morning, if he didn't have anything
to do, that he would lounge around for several hours,
sometimes with his robe and bedclothes. However, her custom was
when she got up, she immediately became dressed. We do
(28:07):
know that a man was seen or somebody was seen
in the yard on the Saturday before the Kentucky derby,
so we actually think, because of all of that together
that this probably happened initially sometimes Saturday during the daytime.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
Well, I'm curious just looking at people's behavior. He still
had on his boxers and a T shirt. She was
doing the crossword puzzle. Joining me is doctor John Delatory,
renowned psychologist and mediator who specializes in forensic psychology.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
Doctor Delatory number one.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
I need to know the date of the USA Today
crossroord puzzle, and it's just striking me that this was
in the morning, which makes this even more of an aberration,
an oddity.
Speaker 7 (29:04):
Yeah, because they're unprepared, right, there's nothing to suggest that
anything is going on in their daily lives that made
them afraid of whatever it.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
Is that's going on.
Speaker 7 (29:13):
Even if there was an individual in their yard, it
certainly doesn't appear as though that individual shouldn't be there, right,
So there's a lot that's sort of just the routine, right,
the mundane, the regular things that these two individuals kind
of go through. They weren't expecting any of this to happen, so.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
They weren't prepared.
Speaker 7 (29:32):
This is not so much a blitz attack, because there's
nothing to suggest in the home that you know, all
of a sudden there was some kind of fight, but
there is something in which they were unprepared and they
just kind of it was just unexpected, and instead of
using force, the individual probably use some kind of coercive technique,
whether it was a gun or a weapon or something
(29:53):
like that. But there was more coercion, more verbal threats
more than there was physical threats.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
Just Scott Morgan enjoining us for professor forensics. It's not
all about fingerprints and fibers. Let's take a look at it.
Joe Scott number one, the date of the USA Today paper.
Was it her custom to do the crossword in the mornings?
Were coffee cup coffee cups sitting out on the kitchen table.
(30:20):
Was there a pot of coffee still in the coffee maker?
Was there anything in the crock pot where their dishes
out from lunch or did it look more like dinner.
We know that they didn't show up for the Kentucky
Derby party, so that gives us the clue as to
the end.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
They were dead by that time. What else would you
look for?
Speaker 6 (30:41):
Joe Scott well Sheriff Sales, has done the right thing
by going to speak with the family, something we do
in investigations to just try to get a take a
temperature of what their daily routine looks like, and you
have to try to understand that and are there any
moments in tom that deviate from that normal all those
normal behaviors moving forward. I think that also one of
(31:06):
the things. And if we believe that there may have
been more than one individual involved in this, I think
that it would be very important to try to examine
any kind of available digital evidence that might be available
from back during that time period, as far as phone records,
anything that came off of any of the towers back then.
(31:27):
I don't know if that's necessarily possible, but it's certainly
something that's intriguing. If you've got one person in the yard,
perhaps are they communicating with someone else that could facilitate
bringing a boat around, Because that's that's the rub, isn't it.
You know, how do you get a boat into a
location where you're running the risk in broad daylight of
(31:47):
people being seen at their dock or their mooring location there?
Speaker 1 (31:52):
How does this work?
Speaker 6 (31:53):
So there has to be communication involved in this. I
think that's that's certainly something to look at.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
And of course, you know the Agel question dot miss
on dilatory. You really think too or more people could
keep this quiet. No way they had to tell a girlfriend,
a wife, a co conspirator.
Speaker 1 (32:11):
There was a reason for this murder. Somebody has to
know why, and that leads you to who.
Speaker 7 (32:17):
Again, it leads me to someone that felt offended by
whatever Russell Dermot was doing, whatever it was that he
was involved in. Now, this could have been an ex employee,
this could have been this could have been anybody.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
But when you say involved in, wait a minute, that
makes it sounds like it's a victim's fault. How do
I know it wasn't somebody that broke in and he
wouldn't give up the pen number to his checking account
or his saving his account. I mean, we did that
cause someone to go into a fury, But would they
go through the effort of driving up in a boat
and decapitating him over a pin number?
Speaker 6 (32:50):
No, No, absolutely not.
Speaker 7 (32:51):
This is why I'm saying that this is about something
that was going on within the individual that was specifically
targeting Russell Dermott or else a. None of this other
stuff would need to have happened. I mean that these
two individuals are killed in very disparate ways, and they're
dumped in very disparate ways, But I think it's purposeful.
This was planned from the beginning that this was how
(33:12):
things were going to play out, and everything is probably
geared towards Russell Derman being sort of the ultimate target
of whatever this thing was, given the nature of how
his wife was beaten to death and how he necessarily
wasn't in.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
The last days a break in the case.
Speaker 3 (33:31):
Listen, the case of the double homicide of a beloved
couple in a gated community on Lake of Coony goes
cold for nearly ten years until Sheriff Howard Siles announces
a break in the case. DNA is recovered from Russell
Durman's shirt and is sent to a private lab for examination.
The private lab confirms the DNA does not belong to
Russell or Shirley Durman. Pubman County Sheriff Howard Siles says
(33:52):
he believes the DNA is from the person who committed
the murder, or at least somebody who is a party
to the crime.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
Crime stories with Nancy Grace, the double.
Speaker 3 (34:08):
Homicide of Russell and Shirley Dermot rocks their gaty community.
Huddnam County Sheriff Howard Sills says, based on the evidence,
Russell Drman was murdered elsewhere, but was beheaded in the
garage where his body was found. The shriff says the
injuries Shirley Drman sustained would have left physical evidence that
was not found in the Drman's.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
Home, nor evidence at the beheading of Russell Dermott occurred
there in the home as well. Where were they killed?
What was the purpose of bringing their bodies back to
that gated community home right on the waterfront of Lake Oconey.
We are now hearing about new DNA straight out to
the sheriff. Sheriff Howard Sills, where did you discover where
(34:49):
was the new DNA.
Speaker 4 (34:50):
We initially took all of our physical evidence out to Authoram.
Authorham did locate and did identified DNA. Further work that
needed to be done, and they have referred me to
Sarrensen Labs in out in Utah and they have found
DNA that they are still working on trying to isolate that.
(35:17):
We at least know both Author and Sarnson found DNA
that does not belong to Shirley or Russell. Drman and
Sarnston is still doing whatever they're doing there, trying to
narrow that down enough where we can get it into CODIS.
(35:39):
So I reached out to them. Initially, the State Lab
said there was no DNA. I'm not being critical of them.
I don't know the technology at the time other than
the Dermots themselves. But after learning of the good work
of Authorm and Sarrens and consulting with the FBI, that's
where I decided to take stuff. So we're optimistic that
(36:04):
that's going to eventually turn up something here, hopefully pretty soon.
Speaker 2 (36:08):
Doctor Christen Millman, joining US chief development officer at AUTHRAM,
tell me about the discovery of the new Well, it's
not really new DNA. It's newly discovered DNA. Where was
it and how did you find it?
Speaker 8 (36:20):
It was on the clothing and I guess how we
found it is The sheriff sent the evidence here to
see if there was any unknown contributor profile that could
be detected that wasn't previously detected. Once that was detected
at our lab, we had to follow the interim policy
for this type of technology, and that means that any
(36:43):
DNA that is found needs to be uploaded to COTIS
first and see if there is a hit and CODIS
or a match in CODIS. Once there's not a hitt
and CODIS, then we can proceed and build a profile.
If there is a hitting CODIS, obviously the case can
be solved that way. A lot of the times there isn't.
If there isn't, then we can proceed and build a
profile that has hundreds and hundreds of thousands of markers
(37:05):
rather than twenty, and upload that to genealogical databases consented
for law enforcement use, allowing us to infer the identity
of the perpetrator. And so Sorensen is a traditional forensic
lab that can build these CODIS profiles quickly and get
them uploaded. That is what's happening now, and if there
(37:25):
is a hit, that case can be solved that way.
If there is no hit, then we can take over
the DNA sample and build one of these genealogical profiles
that will help us infer the identity of the person
that left DNA at the crime scene. We can't say
it's the perpetrator, but we can say someone that left
DNA on their body at the crime scene during that
(37:48):
time period.
Speaker 2 (37:49):
The clothes they were wearing at the time they were murdered. Okay,
question Dodger Crystal middleman joining us Dodger Middleman when I say,
how do you find the DNA on the clothing? Specifically?
What do you put it under a microscope? Do you
treat it in some way? How do you see what
(38:11):
other scientists could not see?
Speaker 8 (38:14):
Well, DNA techniques should be much the same and standardized,
but maybe we took a section of that clothing that
was different than sections that had been tested in the past.
How forensic testing works is you section different areas of
a bedsheet, clothing, anything that might have been found at
the crime scene, and then you extract DNA from all
(38:34):
of those cuttings and sometimes you're lucky and you actually
find a profile that doesn't belong to either one of
the victims, and that is what the sheriff is alluding
to in this case.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
Doctor Mintlman, it's amazing to me the work that you
do at Authram. You've actually found something that other scientists
at the time couldn't see, and it may hold the
key to not just a double murder, but the double
murder of beloved grandparents, a beheading. And I look at
(39:08):
missus Derman to imagine someone tying her body to a
cement chunk and throwing her into that cold, dark water.
These perps have got to be found and your work
may make that happen. If you know, or you even
(39:30):
think you know anything about the brutal murders of the Dermans,
please call seven zero six four eight five eight five
five seven seven zero six four eight five eight five
five seven. Now we've got up that there is a
twenty five thousand dollars reward, but there is also a
(39:52):
commitment for Metropolitan Life Insurance for thirty grand Let's hope
we can use it total of fifty five thousand dollars
and promised reward for the discovery of information leading to
the resolution of this double murder. We stop now and
(40:16):
remember American hero police Officer Garrett Crumby, Huntsville, Alabama. Just
thirty six. Officer Crumby shot and killed in the line
of duty. Survived by grieving wife Taylor, loving parents William
and Janet, two dogs and two cats, four furry children.
(40:37):
American hero police Officer Garrett Crumby. Thank you to our
guests for being with us, especially to doctor Kristen Middleman
from off Raum Labs, and of course to Sheriff Howard Stills,
still on the case there in Putnam County.
Speaker 1 (40:54):
Nancy Grace signing off, goodbye friend,
Host
Nancy Grace
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